5 YRS AGO FLAGSHIP: Keller & Fann evaluate the champions at the end of 2020 and their likely successors, plus other topics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now. PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This week on the flagship PW Torch, columnist Greg Parks
joined me and a lot to talk about, including the
fallout of the fiend Rand Orton fire Angle at TLC,
Possibilities for opponents for Drew McIntyre and Roman Reigns at WrestleMania,
Possible Royal Rumble winners including favorites and dark horses, Comparing
the rosters of Awn NXT, What NXT could do in

(01:36):
twenty twenty one to improve viewership relative to Dynamite, The
lay of the land for Kenney Omega title challengers, the
future of the impact aw dynamic, where roh fit into
the landscape, and more. Nearly two hours of analysis as
we closed out the year twenty twenty and not a
week too soon given twenty twenty On the Way Keller

(01:57):
Progessing podcast Flagship Again. This originally dropped on December twenty second,
twenty twenty, and it is today's wad Keller Professing podcast
five years ago flag Ship Flashback for Wednesday, December twenty fourth,
twenty twenty five. All Right, Greg, I gotta start with
the story of the week, and that is the Inferno match.
We talked a lot about it last night. I got

(02:18):
some perspectives from Tom Stoup and Javier Machado, who both
were making their case more for it than vociferously against it,
as seems as most people seem to be doing. First,
my question to you is what's been your sense from
you know, social media and just what you're gathering in
terms of how you think people are reacting to this,

(02:39):
Like how big is the ratio in favor or against
and how intense.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
It's been a pretty big negative from what I've seen
on social media, and you know, hosting Wrestling Night in
America Sunday night after TLC and getting calls about the match,
and you know, I think at this point most fans
who all the products closely are not outraged necessarily. It's

(03:03):
just like rolling their eyes at this point. You know,
you would think that lighting someone on fire in the
middle of a rain to end of pay per view
would really rile people up. But you know, with the
Fiend especially, fans have been conditioned to where anything can happen,
and that includes being set on fire. So I think

(03:25):
people are just kind of tired of the nonsense. It's
not like they're they even have the energy to be
enraged anymore. It's you know, and I think it hurt
the pay per view because a lot of people really
wanted to like that show, because the wrestling was good,
the matches were good before it, and to end the
show on that no really leaves a really sour taste

(03:47):
in a lot of people's mouths.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
That's I think that's a really good way to describe
the reaction, because it's not like, how dare WWE do
this to my precious pro wrestling, you know, sport that
I I love to watch. It's more not shoulder shrug,
but kind of throwing the hands up, like.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
Really resignation of sorts that this is. You know, this
is WWE now, and if you're gonna watch, you're you're
gonna run into things like this that are just so
over the top that it's hard to take seriously.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, And that's the thing. It's And some people would go, well,
you know you should be taken prossing seriously anyway. And
bad bookers over the years, you know, I remember Kevin
Sullivan once defending his booking in WCW by going, you
need to suspend your disbelief.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's like that that has nothing.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
To do with illogical booking, drop storylines, bad character development,
cliched overuse of cliche finishes. You know, it's just like, oh,
suspend your disbelief. In other words, hold me to the
lowest standard possible. That's what he meant at a time
when his booking was struggling and people were critical of it.
And so to me, it's not about it. It's about
if you're gonna do something, do it well and make

(04:59):
sure that it fits. It's in the greater context of
the show. And to me, like, if this is what
WWE wants to be and what they want to do, fine,
you know, I mean, there's a whole array of wrestling
products out there you can support, and may the best
product eventually went out. W certainly has an advantage with
their market share and their reach and their brand. But

(05:19):
you can't just do this and not expect, if you're
WWE some pushback because well, from time to time they
do stuff like this. It's so outside of the realm
of the rules of engagement of everything else that we
experience in wrestling almost all the time, except with w
dabbles and in this kind of thing, you know, this
man and the Lima blowing up. If it were't for
the Benwa thing, who knows where that would have gone.

(05:41):
You know, everyone's remembering these examples, not as sometimes as
justification for doing this, and other times as an example
of it's not any worse or better, it just is
what they do. And I didn't like it then and
I don't like it now. But when you have like
a headline in the New York Post stating yesterday w
B should use burning the Fiend at TLC as impetus
for change, you know they're seeing this as an example

(06:03):
of something that really does stand out.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I wonder what.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
WWE's motivation is and how self aware vinsic Man is
of how people react to this, Like I guess I
still said a lot there, but you can react to
any of it. But my specific question to you is
do you think vinsic Man does this almost to trol
the audience, or because he thinks this is a totally
fits in with the way he promotes, or because he's
trying to put the paddles to the chest and shock

(06:30):
the company a little bit to create that social media
buzz that makes him feel like he's doing his job.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
I think in this particular incident, it's more about, you know,
that shock that we'll get people talking, which this certainly succeeded,
but not in a way that I don't think we'll
draw more viewers to your product. We'll have to wait
till the RAW rating comes out. I guess to see that.
But this is I will say that this sort of

(06:56):
thing is doing it with the Fiend. I mean, that's
really the only character you can get away with doing
this sort of thing with. And based on what we
saw on Raw last night, this seemed like a rite
off of the Fiend character for now. Alexa Bliss certainly
hinted that we haven't seen the last of the Fiend,
and I can see Vince McMahon, the writer's brainstorming Eno,

(07:17):
if we're going to write off this character, who we've
proven is indestructible in a lot of ways, how do
you do that? How do you get rid of this character?
And I can totally see them settling on while setting
him on fire, you know, and just burning him to
a crisp in front of the fans. You know, I

(07:39):
would be concerned about the sponsors and you know, children
watching this. I mean that can be I can only
imagine if there were any kids who stayed up to
watch this, or we'll be watching it on the ww network,
what their reaction might be. And we know that WWE
has gone after the children's audience, which with moving their
product to being ped for so long and licensing deals

(08:03):
and things like that, and they've stayed away from this
going over the line with this sort of thing in
the past because they are attempting to appeal in a
lot of ways to children, and I think this to
me crossed that imaginary line to where, you know, that's

(08:23):
pretty jarring. I think to any kids who might have
been watching.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
This, WW had a chance and I talked about this
last night, I want to get your take on it too,
to frame this differently, And they could have said the
Fiend clearly pulled a fast one on Randy Orton in
so many words. You know that Randy thought, you know,
after he won the match, he was going to take
it a step further. Winning the match by setting Fiend

(08:48):
on fire wasn't enough. He wanted to do more damage,
poured lighter fluid on it. But when he went out
to get the gasoline can somehow the Fiend left and
replaced his body with some some vessel that isn't him,
you know, whatever language they want to use, and Randy
ended up burning something that wasn't the fiend, and the
Fiend again outsmarted Randy Orton and the Orton's furious or

(09:10):
something along those lines were early on just say, yes,
we gave you the visual, but it wasn't the Fiend.
We really didn't burn a human being who's flesh and bones,
even a supernatural character like the Fiend. The Fiend's in
there wrestling, he's a body, he's got bones, blood, he's
got eyes, he's human.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
He's not a robot. He's not portrayed as a robot.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
It was burning, you know, like and again the visual
still there, and some of the dangers of kids watching,
and is this really within the PG realm of what
w normally markets. Absolutely not, But they had a chance
to at least pull back quite a bit by having
the comp the announcers and the promotion social media ww
dot com story really quickly do for lack of a
better word, damage control and say the Fiend was not

(09:51):
that was not the Fiend. When when medics came to
the ring afterwards when the show went off the air
to try to put out the fire and see if
what was going on, they realized it was a dummy.
It wasn't real. The Fiend had somehow escaped the ring
and replaced himself. That's even that's stupid, But you're not
at least spending twenty four hours selling people on the
idea that we're just sort of reacting like it was

(10:12):
interferenced in a ladder match, or you know, or someone
popping up from under the ring, which is all doable,
you know what I mean. It's like it's it's in
the realm of reality and nobody died, but they're spending
twenty four hours letting it just sort of you know,
they're reacting like Orton did this actual horrible thing by
pouring gasoline on a human and burning them to end

(10:33):
a show, and then trying to get us to care
about what's Seamus and Drew not getting along or Shamus
and keith Leen not getting along, Like it's just so
my guess, Mike, is there a way to for WW
to get what they wanted out of this, the shock value,
but also pull it out of the realm of oh, yeah,
you saw the bean burn to death, but he's actually

(10:53):
just fine also, and so trying to make sense of that.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
I think that shock value that WW, who was going
for dissipate some when there is such a lack of
follow up and it's just treated like another angle, you know,
I think it was very telling that Monday Night RAS
started off not with Randy Orton coming to the ring
as he did at the top of the third hour,
or any kind of update on the Fiend. It was

(11:17):
Charlotte Flair, you know, which in a lot of ways
encompasses WWE. I supposed to come out with her after
returning at TLC, but you know, they waited until the
top of the third hour of Monday Night ROW to
really address what happened to have Randy Orton and Alexa
Bliss both speak about what happened to the Fiend. And
when you do that, when you presented at just as

(11:39):
just another angle on a show, I think it loses
a lot of that shock value that ww was initially
going for.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
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Speaker 2 (12:22):
What is the next step for the fiend?

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Very wide posted on Twitter at cocoon with the words
thank you in a red circle immediately in his social
media saying you know, I'm still here, thank you for
burning me, which of course then prompts the discussion what's
the point of trying to beat up the fiend? If
you can literally set him on fire and he just
reincardinates to something else, why should we then care about, oh,

(12:49):
I don't know, draping DDT or an RKO if you
could literally burn him, like I just the rules of engagement,
the parameters of telling the story are just ridiculous. I mean, I'm,
you know, like it's going to that extreme and then
having it not actually have any effect, but then wanting
us to care about the next wrestling match with the Fiend.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
It just it blows up.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
It doesn't it doesn't work, it's it's self, it self
destructs on the basis of just the complete lack of
consistency and any logic to it.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
I talked about this on Sunday after the show that
my expectation was that the Fiend is written off with this,
which it appeared to be the case on Monday, and
perhaps a new character for bray Wyatt would emerge. And
you know, whether or not that's the case, whether or
not they just stick with Funhouse bray Wyatt for a while,

(13:45):
whether or not they just give the bray Wyatt character
as a whole a little bit of a break, I
don't know, but those would be kind of my my
guesses is that either another character emerges to replace the
Fiend or why it is alone, so to speak as
himself as this, you know, as the character that this

(14:08):
Children's Hosts character that he's established for a little while now.
So I think either of those two avenues or possibilities
wouldn't surprise me for the Fiend to crop up again
sometime toward WrestleMania season. But that's my impression of where
things are going to go from here.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
So in the end, where does this leave Randy Orton
and how people should feel about him is this? Can
he just transition out of this and go feud with Edge?
Do they revisit this in the short term. In the
long term, does this angle make Randy Orton more of
a heel? I still. I know there's people who make
the case and they look at the storyline they go,

(14:49):
well's it's self evident. Fiend was the clear babyface here,
And I'm like, he's not a babyface or a heel.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
He just is.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
He's getting revenge on Orton. But I don't But Orton, remember,
is this he who for fifty is a character for
fifteen years. Every time they turn him, hell gets cheered
and w B storylines frame him as you know, he
does what he has to do. He's a viper, and
then he knew the same thing when he's a heel,
and they decried and talk about how awfully he is.
His character's been inconsistent and back and forth. So to me,

(15:16):
this was just I don't think people emotionally were invested in.
I want to see the Fiend beat Randy Orton. And yes,
the Fiend tried to set Randy Orton on fire, or
the way to win the match was setting your opponent
on fire. But fine's gonna put Randy Orton in a
chair and pour gasoline on him and set him a blaze.
In more than quote just setting him on fire. It
would have killed him.

Speaker 3 (15:38):
So how are we.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
Supposed to get all worked up about Randy doing that? Yes,
it was after the official decision, but they didn't ring
a bell to a ring announcement. It just sort of
was a continuation of the fight. I don't even get
in the booking. I don't think w B in the
booking was actually trying to get a certain emotion out
of us, other than while I can't believe the specter
were watching, what are they going to do next? And
that just I don't think that's high art. I think
that's hot shot booking. Were use special effects to make

(16:03):
up for what's most valuable for a wrestling book or
to accomplish, which is get people emotionally invested in a
certain outcome and rooting foreign against someone, And I just
don't I don't think they've accomplished that with The Fiend.
And Randy Orton's a character who people like when he's
a heel, a lot of their audience likes him. So
just from a character standpoint, talk about what they were

(16:23):
trying to do and where you were along the way,
and if you think there were obvious things they could
have done to define it better.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Randy Orton was certainly a heel. What the Fiend was,
I'm not really sure, you know. I had heard the
same rumblings and people explaining that, yes, the Fiend is
a babyface, and I tried watching it through that lens,
and it was very hard for me to see that,
because I didn't think the Fiend there wasn't really any
change from when he was a heel to all of

(16:53):
a sudden, now he's supposed to be a babyface? Is
it because he's taking on a heel in Randy Orton
that automatically makes in the babyface because he's didn't do
anything in the lead up to this or during this
feud that would indicate to me that anything had changed
with him to give fans the impetus that we should
all be cheering for him now. So I thought that

(17:14):
was very muddied. But Orton, you know, clearly being the heel.
As far as where he goes from this, it's it's
hard to say. It's hard to top burning someone alive,
you know. It seemed like last night he was getting
away from whatever Bray Wyatt character is going to pop
up next, whether it's Bray or whether it's another character

(17:37):
to replace the Fiend looks like he's going Orton's going
in a different direction. But it is going to be
interesting how they frame him next, I mean, coming off
of what he did. Although you know, in WWE storytelling,
like I said, they're treating it as just another angle.
We're talking about this as a big deal. How does
it affect Randy Orton going for But I don't think

(17:57):
WWE in their mind sees it that way. I think
they see it is just another angle, just like you know,
punting a legend in the head and now he's gonna
move on and do something else. So you know that
That's kind of how I see WWE's reaction to it,
based on that twenty four hour period that you mentioned
after TLC and then recapping it and talking about it

(18:21):
and how they presented it on Raw Monday night.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
I wonder how many people watch this and saw the
Fiends as a real bad guy, like as as the
embodiment of evil and he you know, pulled the sweet
Alexa Bliss over to his realm and poor NICKI was, uh,
you know what was was her heartbroken over what happened
with Lex and this you know, Niki Cross, like one

(18:44):
of the most sympathetic, innocent, kind hearted characters in WWE.
She's begging, well, this storyline with Thorton feed is going on,
begging a Lexa Bliss to come back to reality and
not go, not not fall under the under the spell
of of of the Fiend, as if it would be
this horrible thing for her. At the same time, they're
telling the story where where some people are arguing we're

(19:04):
supposed to see Orton is a heel, and I think
you can watch this play out and go, well, yeah,
I mean they went to war before, but right now,
Fiend is really evil. He's been portrayed as as he
is someone evil going after babyfaces and putting them in peril.
He pulled a lex of Bliss into his web. Randy
Orton is the weapon we need. As evil as he is,
he's no fiend. He's punk kicked villains. He did what

(19:27):
he did to the Legends with the lights out, but
the Fiend has all these supernatural powers. He's the weapon.
Ww ME needs to stop the Fiend from what he's
doing with a lex of Bliss and whatever comes next
there and whoever whoever his next victim is going to
be like I just again based on Randy Orton being
someone who gets away with a lot of things, but
fans still cheer him. I think you can watch the

(19:48):
storyline and say, yeah, this is just we Randy Orton's evil,
but he's a level of evil.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
We need to stop the Fiend.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I don't even think it's that obvious that Randy is
a in other words, the de facto heel and then
Fiend is sort of like a movie villain who's neither
face or heel, and we're just to watch the spectacle.
I think he can sort of see Randy is. He's
our guy who's been around longer. We've cheered him, we've
boot him, He's done some heinous things. He's the kind
of guy we need to stop the Fiend. And I
didn't see the way the storyline was told in the

(20:15):
last handful of weeks that it clearly went against that
being a fair lens through which to look at these
characters feuding.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, and I think the big disconnect you mentioned between
Alexibilists and the Fiend is a big part of it too,
And so much of it is the lack of clarity
with the promos because That's something we've had issues with
with the bray Wyatt character, dating back to the very
early stages of it. You know, when we got over
the fascination with his his promos and it became the

(20:48):
same thing, and it became sort of repetitive, and once
you actually looked at what he was saying, and it
didn't hold a lot of water, didn't make a lot
of sense, didn't really there was not a lot of
depth there. And I think that's kind of the same
thing they're falling into right now with Alexa Bliss's Foremost
and even some of the things that bray White is
doing in the Firefly Funhouse. It's entertaining on a certain level,

(21:11):
but it doesn't really accomplish much in terms of telling
you anything about how you should feel about the character
or anything about the character you know specifically either. So
it's hard to get emotionally invested when a lot of
the promo time that both of them are getting are
just seeming to be empty words.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
What do you think is next?

Speaker 1 (21:29):
I shouldn't say just next, but on the horizon in
twenty twenty one for the Fiend who lines up well
as an opponent form and if we're supposed to be
feeling sympathy for Fiend in some form or fashion, or
if you can't beat them, join them, or whatever emotion
they're trying to evoke. What one, two, three opponents make
sense for the Fiend in twenty twenty one, Well.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Knowing that the Fiend is always going to have something
major to do, you got to look at the very
top of the card. If you look at the Fiend
as a baby face, it's probably not going to be
Drew McIntyre. So you know, you look at SmackDown and
you look at Roman Reigns, and you know, that was
a direction this past spring that WWE seemed to be
headed in, and then they sort of got away from it,

(22:13):
especially for WrestleMania season, got away from that even before
Roman Rains stepped away at WrestleMania. So WWE could decide
to revisit that sometime in twenty twenty one. You know,
you look at the top of the card on Monday
Night Raw. You've got heels in aj Styles, You've got
heels and miss and Morrison, you've got heels potentially in Shamus.

(22:35):
You've got heels in the Hurt business. I don't really
see a strong fit for the Fiend and who he
is with any of those top heels, which I think
is maybe part of the reason they've decided to sort
of step away from the Fiend character for a while.
At least that was my impression watching the events unfold
at TLC and then Monday Night Raw is kind of
give the Fiend a breather, sort of give that character

(22:57):
a reset, bring him back, whether it's around WrestleMania season
or later, so that it feels fresh and new again,
and maybe by that point you will have had new heels.
If the Fiend is still going to be a babyface
new heels at the top of the roster on Raw,
who would make sense for him to go against or
potentially on SmackDown if there's some kind of switch made.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
What about Fiend showing up and winning the World Rumble
and then challenging Roman reigns. Is that something that you
think they might do that and that fans would accept
or embrace.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
I don't thinks fans would really embrace that. I think
it's something WWE could do. We know that when it
seems like something is being planned over the long term.
Long term in WWE's mind is one month, so we
could certainly see you know, I could be talking here
on how the Fiend might be out for a while,
and that could only be till the Royal Rumble where

(23:51):
he shows up and does something in the Rumble that
leads to him becoming victorious and challenging Roman reigns. I
think that's that's an easy way around, you know, how
do you get the Fiend on SmackDown if you to
throw in range leading to WrestleMania, have him win the Rumble.
I can't imagine, with the events of TLC still being

(24:12):
fresh in a lot of fans mine at that point
that a lot of fans are going to be all
that accepting of the Fiend winning the Rumble and choosing
to face Rains, you know, especially because Rains has become
sort of this beloved figure with the work he's doing
on SmackDown, and I think people want something really substantial
for him that ties into that heading into WrestleMania, and

(24:32):
I don't think the Fiend would meet that criteria for
a lot of fans.

Speaker 4 (24:38):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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Speaker 2 (25:39):
See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
All right, let's pause and introduce the show formally here.
This is the Wade Keller prog Wrestling Podcast, a special
Tuesday flagship edition for December twenty second, twenty twenty. I
am Wadekeller, editor and publisher with a Pro Wrestling Torch
weekly newsletter and PW torch dot com and host of
The Way Keller post shows and podcasts and several VIP

(26:07):
podcasts throughout the week. And i am on Twitter at
the Wade Keller and I'm joined by Greg Parks, longtime
Progressing Torch newsletter, columnist and host of the Wrestling Night
in America podcast that drops Sunday nights and streams live
on Sunday nights and is available for download later Sunday
night on the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup. Search PW

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daily shows.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Greg, welcome back to the co host.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
Chair, Nanks Wade. Great to be here.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas. It's a it's a strange, a
strange holiday season. Not having it does it feels like
Christmas is sneaking up because I haven't been to any malls,
like I'm bought some things online, but it is, it is.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
It's a strange. It's just a strange feeling.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
It's been a strange year, but this is sort of
another chapter in it feeling very strange.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah, certainly, Happy holidays, Merry Christmas to you and all
the listeners. And you know, since I moved to Florida
about nine years ago, Christmas always sneaks up on me
because it never feels you know, I grew up in
New York, so I grew up with, you know, the
changing of the season in the fall, and then you
start to get the snow in December and it feels
like winter and it feels like Christmas. And in Florida,
I you know, you just kind of mosey along and

(27:27):
then all of a sudden it's December twentieth, and you're like, wait,
what Christmas is coming up? So it never really That's
one thing since I moved to Florida that I still
haven't quite gotten used to.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
All Right, well, how about how people can follow you
on Twitter?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
I'm on Twitter at Greg m Parks.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
Sounds good. What's the temperature right now?

Speaker 3 (27:47):
Speaking of Florida, It's actually pretty cool here. I think
it's about seventy degrees.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
I was like, you know, we're having a warm day
here in Minnesota. It's thirty eight and I was like,
you know what, it's possible, we're within like ten swelve
degrees of Greg but nope, you had to double us.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Now, yeah, it gets pretty low. It gets in the
lowest we've had so far is into the forties overnight. Yeah,
but usually you know, when the sun comes out, he
eats everything up during the day.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
So yeah, but it'll be a low of negative four
for us on Christmas.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
Oh so you like Christmas for you.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Well, it already does.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
But yeah, although I'm we haven't had we haven't had
snow since early October, so we got we got grass everywhere.
We're not gonna have a white Christmas, which is kind
of a bummer this. Yeah, okay, well, let's let's get
back to pro wrestling talk. Here a few things I wanted,
a few directions I wanted to go, but let's let's
stick with the Royal Rumble questions. Since we just talked

(28:44):
about the possibility of the Fiend if he were to
win and choose to face rains and help people wreck,
what of the possibilities are there. We saw our first
commercial last night on Raw for the Royal Rumble. It's
late this season. It rumbles at the very end of
January January thirty first, so we have I like that
because I think the less time there was between the
Rumble and Mania, the better. And I like Royal Rumble hype,

(29:06):
so it gives them a little more breathing space. I
don't know if it's strategic or happenstance in terms of
how the calendar worked out in the NFL season and
all that and the way they scheduled it, but nevertheless
we get more time. But with that first role Rumbo
commercial last night, I feel like now we can shift
to talking about that it's the next pay per view
on the calendar. Who are the candidates to win the
Rumble this year on the men's side first and then

(29:28):
and then we'll kind of talk about the women's side
now with Charlotte returning.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Also, this is another topic that was brought up on
Wrestling that in America Sunday Night. You know, once TLC's
in the books, people want to start looking ahead in
the next pay per view, as you mentioned, is the
Royal Rumble. And you know, I made mention that I
think the women's field is a lot more wide open
than the men's field. I think there's a lot more
potential winners on the women's side, you look at the men.

(29:51):
I mean, if you want to invite the part timers
brock Lesner Goldberg into the conversation. You know, Goldberg rumored
to be facing Roman Reigns at WrestleMania. Brock les Uh,
you know, whenever you bring him up, he's going to
be doing something major at uh at WrestleMania. So I
don't even know if he's going to return for that,
but he's something somebody you've always got to keep in

(30:12):
the mix. But really, you know, other than that, there,
I don't know that there are a lot of other
strong contenders. I know, Biggie, when he first left the
New Day and struck out on his own, it seemed
like he was going to be in line for a
big push that had the potential to crescendo at Royal
Rumble with a victory. But now that kind of feels
like a long shot. You've got seth Rollins. If he

(30:34):
returns in time, who's who could be out there and
the time off could refresh him from the long rain
mysterial feud you've got, I mean, Kevin Owens. If they
don't do a rematch at TLC you've got Kevin Owens'
possibility he is stock, may have been, may have risen
within WWE with the with his performances in the Roman

(30:55):
Reigns feud over on Raw. I mean, it's I don't
see a really deep field there either. And some of
the names we talked about earlier, you know, is it
going to be Randy Orton, Is it going to be Edge?
Is it going to be an aj Styles or something
like that. But I think the potential names really drop
off a cliff once you get past Orton and Edge,

(31:17):
who were a long time ago rumored to be in
a title match at WrestleMania, And you know, plans change
a dozen times between now and then, so it's really
hard to save for the men. I don't have a
really good feel for even the potential winners. I don't think,
you know, And I think that's what we're gonna have
to keep a close eye on TV in the next
several weeks leading into the Royal Rumble to see how

(31:41):
WWE is moving the pieces on their chessboard to prepare
for the Royal Rumble.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Why listed
to commercial breaks when you can go v ip and
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(32:11):
membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents. Treat
yourself to a streamlined, add and plug free listening experience
with a VIP or Patreon membership. Yeah, I mean, I
think you can look at the rubble and say there's
some obvious candidates and then you hope that WWE spends
the next six weeks giving you a reason to believe

(32:33):
there's some dark horse candidates or other possibilities, and the
rubble is most fun when there is a semi long
list of potential directions they can go in. But at
the same time, you know ww's philosophy is they'd rather
be predictable and give you a solid backstory than unpredictable
and haven't gotten you excited about something and not deliver
on it, And so I'm curious as we go into January,

(32:54):
like the type of story that they tell them to
just fill TV leading up to the Rumble, the way
the Rumbles set up where the winner headlines WrestleMania. I mean,
you can just eliminate twenty four out of thirty people
almost instantly, you know, like and it takes away some
of it. Like if if the Rumble was a future

(33:16):
title match at a pay per view, you know, money
in the bank type situation, the whole field would be open,
or you know, more than half the field would be open.
And so I am curious, like just how where do
they in what direction do they steer us?

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Is?

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Are they going to be able to kind of build
up Bigging in a believable way where we could imagine
him being a candidate. I just don't know. I mean
I think, you know, how do you think people would
react to Goldberg showing up in winning in Thunderdome and
challenging reigns?

Speaker 2 (33:47):
I mean, I guess it.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
I'm just sort of over Goldberg and have been for
a while. I feel like it was just you know,
I don't know, I don't know that there's a lot
I mean, without the crowd pop to kind of validate
or expose the lack of enthusiasm for something. You know,
it's sort of like, well, what do we do? It's COVID,

(34:09):
you know. To me, Goldberg sort of like a a
backup not a backup plan, but sort of a default
when you're not gonna have live crowd and you're sort
of resigned to just having something that feels worthy of WrestleMania.
But it's not that special because nobody's gonna believe that
Goldberg is gonna beat Rains and have a long title rain.
You know, it just it takes away the idea that

(34:29):
it's this historic occasion. It's just a kind of a
one off. Okay, let's get to see that match.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
I think the other problem is, you know, you win
at the end of January in WrestleMania, is at you know,
end of March early April. Is there really that much
of a story between these two to be able to
stretch that out for that long? Goldberger I'm sure will
be sporadically appearing on television. I'm sure he won't be
there as a weekly character, so that may that may help,

(34:56):
But to me, you know, there just isn't especially as
in depth as Roman Reigns' stories have been and as
layered as they've been lately, and maybe, who knows, maybe
Paul Hayman can make some chicken salad out of this
and can really spin a story that will last over

(35:16):
that time without feeling like you're repeating something or it's
reaching for a story element here once it gets to March.
But I just don't really see beyond Goldberg winning and
wanting a shot at Roman reins. Because the Rains did
fight Goldberg at last year's WrestleMania. I just don't see
a lot of depth in that feud.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah, that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (35:38):
I mean, if we have all of February and all
of March and it's Rains Goldberg, I think they have
to tell a completely different story with Rains in the meantime,
and in a way though you want to have Goldberg
tied in. But Goldberg is not a particularly compelling character.
I mean, he's a as thin in one note as
it gets.

Speaker 2 (35:53):
These are intense, that's it.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
There's not a lot of he doesn't have a ton
of history, there's not a lot of You don't feel
like he'd be actually invested in being like a opposing
figure to Roman reigns. You know, Goldberg never carried a
company on his back. You know, it was never a
guy who can relate to what Rains is saying. It
feels like to be the head of the table with
family leaning on him. I just I just don't think

(36:18):
there's a lot to work with her. So I don't
know that you can even incorporate goldbring into into a
two month story to keep reins interesting. But how do
you keep people watching smack Down if you don't have
an interesting story with Roman reign? So I am rooting
against that, But I haven't fully fleshed out who I
think would be better unless they can do a masterful
job in the next five weeks building up Biggie and

(36:39):
letting us see a different side of him.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
Where yeah, yeah, one.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
Guy who has been protected for a while now, although
he doesn't excite people and he's you know, it's not
going to excite people for Rustlemania's Bobby Lashley. Yeah, they've
done a nice job. He did have that one month
few Drew McIntyre back in the spring, early summer or
whatever it was, and you know, ever since then, they

(37:06):
protected him pretty well. Secondary champion. You know, part of
the hurt business, which has been a pretty entertaining act
on Raw, in which it's hard to find some weeks
any kind of entertaining acts. So you know, you spend
the next six weeks building him as something more, and
then he goes into the Rumble and dominates and wins,
and you know, potentially he could be someone who fans

(37:28):
take seriously as a challenger to Drew McIntyre's title. But
you know, I don't see a lot of other people
who've been protected at that level on television over the
last several months on either Raw or SmackDown. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
No, I think it's worth putting Lashley's name out there
for Drew that. I mean, the way that he was
portrayed just last night on Raw. I think it was
Cedric who called him the CEO. I think was the
term he us, like really talking about him as the
leader of the group and he's looking strong and he's
got the US title. I mean, I think that is
that is on the Raw side, a match that feels

(38:04):
fresher than just about anything else they could do. You know,
when you look at the options for Drew, it's like
we just did styles. I don't think you can extend
that or or pause it and restart it by having
Styles win the Rumble or somehow earn it. That doesn't
feel Resumania worthy. As much as I'd like to see
those two one on one have a feud and not

(38:25):
have it start at TLC and under the circumstances it did,
I'd root for that, but it doesn't feel Rsumania worthy.
And where already did Randy Orton And I mean, I
guess they could be doing a long term story arc
with Seamus where Seamus, you know, they use the Rumble
as a way to try to give Shamus that extra
oomph that just wouldn't exist if they just sort of

(38:46):
manufactured a personal river, that rivalry that led to those
two having a pay per view match. So you could
have Shamus win the Rumble and play mind games with
Drew or you know who knows. I mean, I did
like the story they told last night with Shamus where
he's not turning on Drew as much as he's upset
with Lee and disappointed that Drew isn't taking a side,
And so there's a new set of circumstances that's leading

(39:07):
to Seamus kind of show his tendencies that he's been
trying to overcome by being a better person lately Withdrew
because of respect of their friendship. So to me, there's
a lot more you can do with Seamus and Drew
than you can with Goldberg Greens for that, you know,
to be honest, Yeah, storyline wise, TV drama wise.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
The one thing. The other thing that lash Lee has
gone for, and I'll throw this in here before I
start talking about Seamus, is you know, the backup of
the her business. And we've seen you know that WWE
likes to have these stables because you can stretch out
feuds by having Drew mc entire face Cedric Alexander one
week and then have him face he Shelton Benjamin the
next week, and so by virtue of being associated with

(39:48):
that act, you could stretch out that few the necessary
length to get to WrestleMania from the Royal Rumble. But
I like the seamous idea too, because this is something
that ww has been planting seeds for. This is a
more three dimensional relationship that you see amongst male wrestlers
in WWE, where Drew McIntyre, the babyface champion, is good

(40:08):
friends with Seamus, a heel, and so you know, McIntyre
is trying to use his influence to make Seamus a
better person, and sometimes it works. Sometimes as in Last Night,
it maybe doesn't. So then you have Shamus go on
and win the Rumble choose to face his longtime friend
in McIntyre. So there's a lot of background you can cultivate.
There's a lot of stories you can tell based on

(40:29):
that friendship and that fractured friendship leading from the Rumble
into WrestleMania.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
Is there anyone else they could get ready in time
to win the Rubble and not have people go what
and then build it up to WrestleMania when it comes
to Drew McIntyre, Like, could they spin it in a
way where Keith Lee ends up being actually ends up
being the bad guy and they turn him heel or
to be ridiculous, could they heat up Jackson Riker in
a way with Elias where you know they haven't to

(40:57):
find him down enough so we're gonna shoot him to
the moon. See what happens. Copyright Cameron Grimes or Angel Garza.
I'm really reaching here. I mean, there's not even even
if you look at the baby face side and look
at potential turns. Oh Ricochet joins Retribution and goes on
a hot streak, like there's so few options for Drew

(41:18):
as I I mean, I'm grasping, And the top four
includes the top five includes three people that are kind
of ridiculous to even consider.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
Well, Bronz Truman's on the showf with a knee injury.
We don't know how long he's gonna be out, but
he's probably in the conversation for when he gets back
if he's back by the Rumble. You know, he was
he was put out at a time where they were
looking for the next challenger to Drew McIntyre, so he
could you know, he could say that he should have
been the rightful challenger, but he was suspended for head

(41:48):
buddy Adam Pierce, So you know, that could be the
story they tell if he ends up coming back and
winning the Rumble. But aside from him or a late
change from smack Down to Raw, they're just they're are
not a lot of obvious candidates.

Speaker 5 (42:02):
Right Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot Net along
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(42:24):
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and itunices Ditcher, Downcast, and
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Speaker 1 (42:41):
And I mean in fairness to ww and they're roster depth.
It's been very few companies in history where you can
come up with a list that's a lot deeper than
three candidates at a time who are potential major show
challenges to your babyface champion, and you can grade it,
you know, on your own whether you think Seamus, Braun

(43:01):
and Lashly is a strong or compelling or interesting top
three to you, but it is. It is a top three,
you know, because you're right to include Braun in that.
I don't think that feels particularly fresh, but it is
an absolute possible option. And they did just spend Randy
Orton and aj Styles, so they have a strong top five,

(43:21):
a strong enough top five heels to face Drew and
they've just gone through two of them and then there's
three of them left for Mania barring a special attraction
coming in to challenge Drew otherwise or not that there's
a lot of options, but or a baby face a
heel turned from the baby face side of the roster.
So braun Seamus. Lastly, I think is a pretty solid

(43:44):
top three contenders to win the Rumble if a Raw
wrestler wins the Rumble, yeah on uh and so then
for rains we mentioned Goldberg, there's fiend could they do
Jimmy use like, could you could you extend the family
storyline or could you have Samoa Joe answered the Rumble

(44:04):
and has he has? He forged a bond with the
Raw audience with his commentary and weekly presence, but also
not being in the ring, not doing jobs in a way,
being protected by not being part of the week to
week TV mix, being fed to the fifty to fifty
machine that actually could be worthy of Roman reigns at WrestleMania.
Let what is our top two three, four chart four
contenders for rains if somebody wins Rumble?

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Yes, Samoo Joe's interesting. I hadn't thought about that, but
you know, either for Raw or SmackDown, I think it's
worth bringing his name up. Daniel Brian. If WWE wants
to squeeze as much juice out as they can out
of him before he hangs it up, I think he's
got to be in the conversation. I think he's the

(44:49):
right type of babyface to face Roman Reigns and to
be credible in the build up. And you know, I'm
looking because Rowan Rains his story is so focused on family.
You know what wrestlers have that aspect of their character
that can be exploited by Roman Reigns, and that can
sort of wrap around the rain story of him being

(45:11):
the head of the table of his family and Daniel
Bryan obviously, you know, his his family is an open book,
being on total Bellas and things like that, being married
to a former WWE diva in and Brie Bella. So
that's out there to consider, you know, Ray Maisterio, you know,
with his family being an on screen presence so much

(45:33):
during the seth Rollins feud, I think that's worth throwing
in there. But really, yeah, other than that, you know,
does seth Rollins come back and do a shield versus
Shields match, come back as a babyface somehow and win
the rumble and.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Well congratulate Seth and Becky. So, you know, it's a
weird shift to go from the role he was playing.
But it's hard to say, oh, yeah, he is the
father of Becky child and they're together and they're a
happy family, and then have them come back with playing
the same role it. I mean, I understand, you know,
the way wrestling works, there's people. You know, we know
a lot about people's lives on social media compared to

(46:11):
they're on our character. But that's really asking a lot
to get fans to buy into a Seth character that
ignores what that would be as acknowledged on TV, which
is he and Becky are are raising a baby together.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
Yes, so Rollins is all of a sudden finding himself
I shouldn't say all of a sudden, but finding himself
at the head of his family's table.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
How did this happen?

Speaker 6 (46:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (46:30):
I know I didn't mean a truth to not like that,
but yeah, so I think there's a story there with Rollins,
plus the background with Rains and the history of being
in the Shield. I think and Jimmy Usso is an
interesting one. You know, it doesn't feel necessarily like a
WrestleMania match, But then you wonder Okay, how else, but
winning the rumble, would Rain's want to revisit taking on

(46:52):
a family member the same way he did Jay Usso,
you know, And really the only way he would do
it was if Jimmy Usso won and decided to challenge
Roman rain On behalf of his brother Jay, who's kind
of being brainwashed at this point by Roman Rerains. We
don't really know how Jimmy Usso feels. The last time
we've seen him, he was seemed to be against Roman Rains. So,

(47:13):
you know, there's a couple of ways you can bring
Jimmy back. You can bring him back and continue to
build a Roman Rains family stable with him and Jay
staying together as a tag team. Or you can do
the exact opposite and have him be the one fighting,
you know, trying to almost in that Nicky Cross role
of trying to rescue Alexa Bliss from the fiend. He's
trying to rescue Jay Uso from being under the control

(47:35):
of Roman Reins. So there are a couple of different
ways they can go with Jimmy Uso, and I'm kind
of interested to see which way that is. I think
it would be again a little bit of a stretch
to have him win the Rumble and go on and
do it, but that that Roman Reigns story has been
so all encompassing on SmackDown. It has been so good.
I think they would get the benefit of the doubt
from a lot of viewers if Jimmy were to one when,

(47:57):
even though he isn't that traditionally built up royal Rumbles
style winner, the story they've told, which would then include
Jimmy I think has been so good that fans would
be willing to overlook it. It's Jimmy Usso winning the rumble.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
I would rather watch the Jimmy USSA storyline during February
and March leading up to a Jimmy Rains match than
Goldberg Rains, even if on paper, you know, just you know,
you flash it in front of the casual fan, or
flash in front of vincec Mann and go, what's going
to get people's interest for a WrestleMania poster?

Speaker 2 (48:27):
You know Goldberg?

Speaker 1 (48:28):
You know, it's like Entertainment Weekly chose to put Goldberg
on the cover of e W and Entertainment Weekly back
when that was huge, a huge week of publication instead
of Steve Austin because Goldberg's face was more menacing, Like
they didn't even take into account that Steve Austin was,
you know, somewhere between one hundred and one million times
a bigger star and more influential.

Speaker 2 (48:45):
Of that era.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
They went with a more menacing picture, and sadly that
you know, worked against Daniel Bryan and for Roman Reigns
at a time when Brian was right hot and could
have really been really effective top baby face. So I
worry that Vince will default.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
To oh, look at that face, look at that Boston.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Like Entertainment Weekly's editors did, and not just go with
the with the story that's going to be most compelling
to the people who actually watch the product, and it
gives Roman Reigns the most to work with. So I
I don't know, I'm I think Rains has been so
good and Hayman's been so good, and Jay's been so
good that if they want to take me out a
ride with Jimmy usso that pays off at WrestleMania in

(49:22):
this Thunderdome COVID era, I'm fine with that. You know,
say you can save something else for a live audience
at SummerSlam, if you hope, if you think by August
you're gonna be able to do that in some form
or fashion, And you know, it's certainly not outside of
the ROMA possibility, and it might even be likely that
they can have some form of a live audience, if
not a full live audience by August.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
So to me do something that's going to.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Be compelling on TV and work at Thunderdome, and I
don't think Goldberg coming out to piped it well, I
don't know. He always comes out to piped in Goldberg chance,
so maybe it's the best. Thanks for listening to our podcast.
Did you know we also have a website pw torch
dot com daily news updates, editorials, and my live TV
coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown, and my live pay

(50:04):
per view coverage for WWE and AEW. Create a tab
or bookmark make it a daily stop. Visit us throughout
the day every day to keep up on breaking news
and more. That's pw torch dot com. I also worry too,
it's kind of interesting, and I don't want to get

(50:25):
too deep down the Goldberg lane, but I wonder if
fans won't cheer Reigns against Goldberg like the really compelling
character every week who's out there putting in the time,
versus a fifty something guy who's just handed seven who's
been handed seven figure contracts his whole career without ever
paying dues and learning the craft in.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
A way that other top acts have.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I just think people would see him as you know,
blown up, one dimensional, passes prime, not capable of a
great match, and we're supposed to cheer you over this
guy Roman Reigns, who's been the best act in wrestling
for six months.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
I think in a live crowd it would actually work
against the story trying to tell with rains, because I
think fans, with your rains, fans have.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
Shown that they're willing to get behind Goldberg very short term. Yeah,
anything longer term is a struggle to keep fans on board.
Just because of what you talked about earlier. Goldberg is
very one dimensional as a character as a wrestler. It's
the pop for seeing him, it's the pop for his entrance,
it's the pop for hearing him speak, you know, for
the first time in a while. But once all that

(51:25):
goes away, and once that's no longer something that you
need to see, and then you can move on. Fans
have shown that they're not going to stay behind him
as far as live reactions for very long.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, Yeah, What do you like better Daniel Bryan or
samo Joe for rains? If we are if we're sitting
here trying to cast our ballot, or is there is
there a third choice that you like even more? Like
is does Jimmy leap frog Daniel Bryan and Samojo based
on the case we've just been making.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
I think so. I think it's more realistic certainly then
Daniel Brian or Samojo. I would like to see Daniel
Brian just because I think the family story you can exploit.
I think the retirement angle you can exploit. And I
think just from a business standpoint, wanting to get the
most out of your talent while you can not. A

(52:17):
lot of wrestlers talk about wanting to walk away at
a certain point, and you know, you believe Daniel Brian
when he says it, you know, just because he's he's
kind of a different cat than a lot of the
other wrestlers who retire three, four or five times and
stick around. You know, when Daniel Brien says he's ready
to walk away, you kind of believe that. So if
you're a business and you want to get as much

(52:38):
out of your talent and make as much money off
of them as possible for the time they have left,
I think you do that, and you do that by
putting Daniel Brian in a match with Roman Reigns at WrestleMania, which,
by the way, would make a pretty good percentage of
what's left of your fan base pretty happy to see
Daniel Brian that in that role. And I don't think
that should be understated or overlooked either, especially coming off

(53:02):
of TLC when you've got that fan base grumbling about
setting a character on fire in the middle of the
ring ten.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
I like that, and Daniel Brian has been my choice
more often than not, as I've kind of looked at
him being active again and Rain's being in this character
to be able to give fans a chance on.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
A big show to cheer Brian and boot Rains.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
It's something that people, you know, five, six, seven years
ago who were around for that, I still think there's
a pent up desire to do that, and it it
Daniel Brian, I think would really rise.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
To the occasion.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Will give you a chance to have the best match.
I think Daniel Brian being the guy with the smallest
ego of any top star in WWE in terms of
character to be able to upbeat contrast Roman Reigns. I mean,
I know, you know, Jeff Hardy and Riddle last night
were like, you know, you guys are all about fame
and money and you should be about chilling out. And
you know, whatever the case Riddle made and Jeff Hardy made,

(53:57):
they're trying to contrast you know, materialism and and shallowness
versus being good people and being chill. Daniel Brian can
do that at a much more effective way in a
top level when it comes to Rains and dissect the
foundation of Rains justifying his actions, and I would be
all all in on that, and that'd be my top choice.
Simojo I'm interested in again, I think which match if

(54:21):
I want to delay a match till there's an audience
self like if you're sort of selfishly saying, I like
Brian Rain so much, let's save it for when there's
a raina full of fans, and so part of me
thinks that's where like a Jimmy Usso's story works and
maybe gets my vote because it doesn't need a crowd,
like nobody has this passion for Jimmy Uso the way

(54:43):
that they do for Daniel Brian. And that's where Simo
Joe's interesting because I think you can tell a really
interesting story with Joe. But I don't think you're taking
something away from a big part of the fan base,
but by not having them experience it in person or
at least vicariously watch that fan experience in person through
something other and thunderdomes So I think that that plays
into it with me a little bit too. But there's

(55:04):
some good possibilities there. I don't I don't think there's
much else. We talked about Bigie already, So if we
have big Ee Day because they already used Kevin owens
Up and Jay.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Us well wait, let me let me ask you this
before you go too far down that already you mentioned
Samo Joe possibly with Roman reigns, and you know the
Samoan connection. I get, yeah, But what about SMO Joe
Drew McIntyre, I mean, do you do you eliminate that
as a possibility altogether, or do you say, if Samoa
Joe is coming back, that's the possibility equal to less
than greater than than Samoa Joe Roman reigns.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
I think it's less then, because Joe's been sort of
a heel commentator, but not super heavy handed. And I
think if that was even on the radar a little bit,
I don't think w B could have helped themselves. But
to have Joe dropping hints on commentary so far, have
you heard anything that would even indicate.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
They're laying a foundation for that?

Speaker 3 (55:53):
Not really?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah, So I mean, I'm not saying that eliminates possibility,
but I would I would like, if you're just having
these put odds down, I don't think that would be
going to help themselves if they were thinking that at
this point. So, I mean, if if Joe's healthy and
able to go, I guess I vote for him to
be in the Roman reign storyline because I don't think

(56:16):
you're taking anything away from fans by having that match happen,
and then you do have the Simone connection and Joe
can speak to that, and I think Joe, you know,
I mean, don't.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
He needs ratings.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
I mean, they don't need ratings, but they they're very helpful.
If it's very helpful to have people watching your show,
if you want to it's you know, I mean in
many way, yes, yes, but I mean there's there's a
you know dialogue out there. Oh, ratings don't matter because
they have their money guaranteed, and who if the audience
goes up down vinsicc Madison, Cary's got his money anyway,
And it's like the money they get is huge and
it's vast. It's super important to their business. But you

(56:49):
know what else is important is people watching the product
with enough enthusiasm to tune into your main shows in
primetime and convert them to network subscribers and just have
the audience so that the cap distributors value the network
USA network enough to pay big carriage fees to have
the network. That's that is valuable beyond core demographics. So

(57:11):
there's a lot of reasons that w to be selling
merchandise eventually selling tickets, on and on. You want fans
to want to watch your show, even if you're getting
the same check from the TV networks for producing the show.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
And so to me, Simo Joe is.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
A much more compelling story that you can tell on
a week to week basis to fill January, February and March,
or at least just February and March if he wants
to rumble, and that's to me, that's an argument in
favor of Joe or Jimmy or Brian compared to Goldberg.
And then with Brian, I just sort of again, go,
I'd almost rather say that for Summer Slam when there

(57:44):
might be a live audience.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
Yeah, definitely, I think that's a pretty good case to
be made for holding off on Daniel Brian. Of course,
you know, we now have the vaccine. It's getting out
there to people. So I think that the time where
we could say, well, you can't hold off on things
because you just don't know when fans are going to
be back. And there was a time when we said
that that time hopefully is dwindling and hopefully you can

(58:10):
kind of see the end in sight and you can
sort of game plan for Okay, by this point, crowds
will probably be back in some form, and if that
Summer Slam, and if WWE's confident in that, then yeah,
I'm all for holding off on that, especially with his
big as as Summer Slam has become, it'll be even

(58:30):
bigger if they can let crowds in, and that may
be one of the first events that they have any
kind of sizeable crowd for, so you know it'll be
become a bigger event and WW will make an even
bigger deal out of it than they usually do. And
I think Brian versus Reins is an appropriate match for
that level of hype.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 7 (58:57):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back
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(59:19):
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Speaker 1 (59:47):
All right, let's turn the page to another topic entirely,
and that is AEW and Kenny Omega and I'm curious
when we see the return of John Moxley, How we
so just great? You're you're kind of stepping back from
the week to week micro assessment of Kenny and looking
at Kenny as as the lead heel World Champion act

(01:00:09):
for AW going into twenty twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Do you think Kenny's gonna be?

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Is has already or is on the verge of blossom blossoming,
blossoming into a Roman Reigns esque clear centerpiece of his
weekly TV show.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
Well, he feels like a hot character right now. And
so from what I've seen over the last several weeks,
I think he should be the centerpiece of AW. He
should be the top guy. He should be portrayed as
as the top guy, and so far it seems like
that's the case, and I think he can be a
difference maker. You know, we've seen some pretty good ratings

(01:00:47):
from AW coming out of his title win. Whether it's
the interest in sting, whether it's the interest in the
AW Impact crossover, it's hard to say, but you know,
Omega is the champion, so as champions go, he gets
the credit for it. But you know, this is this
is the character that I think a lot of people
wanted to see when he first debuted in AW and

(01:01:08):
now we're now that we're getting it. I mean that
the delayed gratification I think does a lot for fans.
And you know, this is I'm intrigued to see where
his story goes, where he moves forward, whether it's on AW,
how he stays involved and to what extent he stays
involved with Impact Wrestling is going to be really interesting
to see. You know, he's going to be on there

(01:01:29):
January pay per view in a six man tag match,
so they're not giving away any kind of singles match
right off the bad in Impact, which is probably smart.
Just Kenny Omega being on an Impact pay per view,
I think is going to draw a certain amount of
fans that Impact wouldn't otherwise get for their pay per views.
But yeah, I mean they've hit all the right notes
from what I've seen with this Kenny Omega character since

(01:01:50):
his title win over John Moxley. And as we turn
the page of twenty twenty one, it's sort of that
mark of delineation that you can say, Okay, now we
seem to be in a new era of AW. Just
feels different, and you know, part of it again goes
back to staying Part of it goes back to you know,
there are other aspects of AW that are changing underneath
Kenny Omega's feet, but Omega as the champion, as the centerpiece,

(01:02:12):
with this sort of new character that he's morphed into,
gets a lot of credit for that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Who are you most looking forward to seeing Kenny Omega
have full on, full fledged feuds with in Awn twenty
twenty one. We've got obviously, you know, John Moxley is
is I know AW is pushing hard Tomorrow Night show
on social media, but they're also pushing their New Year's
Bash show on the thirtieth and the or you knew

(01:02:42):
your smash excuse me? And they the poster, it's really interesting,
like Kenny Omega's front center with it or not front
center in the foreground, and he's the biggest face in
the collage of people with the title over his shoulder
in the center. Right behind Kenny almost equally biggest Sting
and then their surround and then behind Sting pretty small,

(01:03:05):
not quite as small as aj Styles in the mis
Marine seven poster, but behind Sting is is John Moxley.
And then you've got the young Bucks, Jericho, Cody Darby.
It's an interesting you know, choice of the male wrestlers
that they're featuring in their depth chart.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
In terms of who they see as their.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Biggest stars, those would be, you know, the ones you
would probably expect them to feature. But in terms of
who Kenny can face, Like when I look at that
as sort of ae w's lay of the land, here's
who we're stressing and featuring in a deliberate way in
a poster for the last show of twenty twenty, that's
a pretty good lineup because when you think about potential

(01:03:47):
posts Kenny, I don't think they're going to do Sting
one on one.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
I don't think they should. I hope they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
A sixty something guy who had a you know, rough
less go of it, but Sting in the corner of
Darby as a babyface challenger to Kenny as a full
fledged few that p culminates in a pay per view
twenty twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
I'm on board for that. Cody against Kenny.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
If they can find a storyline way to get Cody
back in that mix, I'm on board for that. A
baby face Chris Jericho after breaking up with MGF against Kenny,
I'm on board for that. John Moxley of course, a
rematch with him, either in the immediate or later on.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I'm on board for that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
And then I'm not mentioning Hankman Page, who does seem
to have been demoted a bit from the top tier,
and they have them on, we'll say.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
For his sake on a longer story arc. But that's
for twenty twenty one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Greg a pretty nice a pretty nice lineup of challengers
who you don't have to work really hard to imagine
it being a pretty compelling TV storyline, and then the
match itself paying off, And it's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
I was looking through Aw's roster as you were talking
about that, and a lot of the really big names
and big pushes are going to heals, so it was
hard for me to pick out. You mentioned Chris Jericho turning,
and you know you could always take a heel and
turn him to face Kenny Omega this year. But the
ones that jumped out to me were the same ones
that jumped out to you. Darby Allen, you know, he's

(01:05:08):
got the thing going on with with Sting and where
that leads to whether sting Is becomes sort of his advisor,
and that ends up taking Darby Allen to the very
top to challenge Kenny Omega. That might be one you
want to hold off because of Allen's popularity, hold off
until you get crowds for that one. And then you
mentioned Cody, but he has the stipulation where he can't
challenge for the AW title, So does the AW try

(01:05:32):
to get around that somehow? And then you know you
mentioned Moxley for a rematch, getting Moxley on his heels
a little bit, which we haven't seen a lot in AW.
And then Adam Page, I think is another one you mentioned.
He does seem to be on a different story arc
right now, so you know you look toward the summer
the fall of twenty twenty one, that could be a
potential matchup for Page and Kenny Omega. So you know,

(01:05:56):
this isn't WWE where you need to have a different
feud every month, so you're looking for you know, nine
to twelve guys instead, you're looking for maybe three to
six guys for Omega feud with over the course of
a year, which makes the job just a lot easier certainly,
and looking for potential opponents. But you know, I'm interested
to see, like you mentioned Chris Jericho, if there are
any heels on the roster, top of the line heels

(01:06:19):
who end up turning and having an opportunity to face
Omega at some point during twenty twenty one, you know,
depending on how long Omega states champion. It certainly feels
like this is a long term direction for aw and
Omega to be a heel throughout the bulk of twenty
twenty one, but there's no guarantee that that he holds
it that long.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yeah, I think it's most likely at their February pay
per view it's going to be Kenny and Moxley, and
that gives you, you know, several months to then build
up to the next pay per view challenger. Again, Yes,
the Cody stipulation just sort of you know, lingers there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
How do they do that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Does Cody have to turn heel if he's going to
override that? You know, is is that kind of part
of the part of the plan and basis and doing
that and if so, h does that really work for
him being an Omega challenger? But man, I would like
to see a Cody Kenny you know, epic world title match,
But you know, they're both young enough that can be
something we look at for twenty twenty two.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
I really think AW.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
I think Tony Con in particular, but the wrestlers involved
have some really long term story arcs and I think
they're committed to that. And yes, COVID changed some things,
but I could have absolutely imagined Cody saying, don't bring
up a world tip an AW World title match until
I get done with everything that I want to do
in twenty twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Kenny's got enough going on.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Let's create new stars and let me do my own
things separate from him, so that by the time Cody
and Kenny battle, it feels like they've been on two
separate tracks as top tier stars for the longest time,
and it really does feel like a dreamatch for the
AW audience by that point.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Yeah, for sure, you want to hold off on going
back on your stipulation for as long as possible. I
think when Cody lost that match and then couldn't challenge
for the AW Championship ever again, I think people kind
rolled their eyes because it's a wrestling stipulation, and I
don't know that AW had got been given the benefit
of the doubt that they get from a lot of
fans at that point that they get nowadays. So to

(01:08:12):
even have gone this far without breaking that stipulation. Knowing
how big of a star Cody is in AW is
an accomplishment for AW. So you know, you go through
twenty twenty one, maybe you're talking twenty twenty two. I
don't think a lot of hearts are gonna break if
AW and Cody go back on that stipulation somehow, if
it's done in a way where you know, it doesn't

(01:08:33):
seem like maybe Cody is the one initiating it, whether
it's AW management, whether it's a heel goading him on,
or you know, whatever the case may be. But if
Cody's going to be the babyface, and there's no guarantee
that he will be when this happens, but if he's
going to be the babyface, you want to have that
third party kind of lead to the breaking of the stipulation.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:09:23):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt, ROH, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(01:09:46):
and pay per view written reports. Yeah yeah, how do
you grade AW just in terms of where they are
right now as we close out twenty twenty Why do

(01:10:10):
you feel AW has done in terms of creating those
those scenarios that we look at and can talk about
as sort of dream matches or rising stars as we head.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Into twenty twenty one, Because I mean, if you look.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
At the roster depth chart, you can make the cases
a pretty big drop off after a handful of people.
But you can also say that for any company. But
you also have you know, Darby Allen and Sammy Gavara and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
MJF.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
I guess you could put in that mix Powerhouse Hobbs,
Ricky Starks, Brian Cage even for that matter, but I
would stick with the others as people who haven't pay per,
remain evented, but are candidates in twenty twenty one to
actually get elevated and be believable and embraced by the
fan base, as you know, top tier guys at some

(01:11:04):
point during the year.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
One thing AAW has going for it that feels different
than WWE is upward mobility. And you feel like a
lot of those guys who are right under that top
tier that you talk about, that they have upward mobility
and that there's not some mythical glass ceiling that they're
going to hit their head on and not be able
to get past because the seventy five year old boss

(01:11:27):
doesn't get them. So I think for AW fans, there's
not that sense of desperation where this guy needs to
be pushed to a top start right away or he's
never going to reach that pinnacle. So that's something reassuring
to me, even as I see a pretty clear drop
off that you talked about that can change at any

(01:11:47):
point in twenty twenty one, it feels like with this company,
whereas WWE you have a handful of people all at
the same level because of fifty to fifty booking, because
of cheap finishes and distraction finishes where no one seems
to get over it.

Speaker 7 (01:11:59):
Does.

Speaker 3 (01:12:00):
It seemed to be that way as much in AW,
so you have a lot of promise there with a
lot of young guys who have not been abused from
a booking standpoint in a way that some people in
the mid card in WWE have. That's sort of taken
away that belief that they have any upward mobility in

(01:12:20):
that company.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
What is your thought on the aew NXT ratings battle.
It was a different dialogue a week ago than it
was a couple of days later when aw kind of
came back down to earth in terms of ratings after
a two week surge with the keny Omega Moxie World
tid A match and then the fallout from staying it's
still good numbers, it still lands them in the top

(01:12:43):
five demographically, They're still happy, but it wasn't like, oh God,
there's no stopping them now. The discussion went from should
NXT move Knights to Wow, NXT was competitive? Good for them,
and I was guilty of that as much as anybody
where do you what's your kind of assessment of what
we saw in the in twenty twenty in terms of
the epp and flow and the lay of the land

(01:13:03):
as we enter twenty twenty one for the NXT AW battle.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
An XT show, they can be competitive when they put
on a themed show, and you can't do that every week.
So NXT is gonna have to be happy with, you know,
once every month, maybe once every couple of months, putting
on a theme show and doing a very good rating,
but otherwise losing to AW. Now, can they hold the

(01:13:31):
viewers from those themed shows going forward? And I think
that's gonna be the key. You know, how much of
those eight hundred thousand can they keep so they don't
fall back to six hundred and fifty thousand, you know,
every week that they don't do a theme show. So
I think that's going to be something to look at
for NXT. And we we talked about this a lot way.
Is that growth factor in AAW Can they get to

(01:13:53):
that next million and or you know next at this
point on nexte hundred thousand, can they consistently keep growing?
You know? Every three months, getting a couple thousand, and
averaging a little higher every time you look at them.
So what is there What does AEW's consistent growth look
like over time? You know, we've got one year of
metrics that we can look at. Now, we'll have a
better idea after twenty twenty one, because then we'll have

(01:14:15):
two years of data to look at and really see
how they've developed their brand over a two year period
where a lot of the the newness has now worn
off of AW. And what's the habit of the Wednesday
night wrestling fan? Are they sticking with AW watching NXT
on the DVR? Are they trending more toward NXT each

(01:14:35):
week than AAW. So, you know, there are a lot
of data points that are out there that we can
look at during the Wednesday night wars such as it is.
And you know, I think AW was the clear winner
of twenty twenty, but I don't think it's clear enough
that we can say for sure that twenty twenty one

(01:14:56):
is going to be more of the same. I think
there is still that belief that if NXT, you know,
gets it chipped straightened out a little more and gets
away from the WWE booking of characters and of finishes
of matches that had sort of steeped into NXT, that
there is potential there for them to gain or to
eat into AEW's lead a little bit more consistently.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
What would you advise or.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Recommend NXT to extrapolate a little bit more on what
you just said about getting away from booking. But when
you look at the wrestlers, they have like I think
one of the under discussed well it has been discussed,
but underdiscussed aspects of NXT, because I think the thing
most people are talking about is is the booking.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
And the.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Framework of the show, the pace of the show.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
Tom Stoups said it's a little crash TVs in certain
ways now on last night's post show. And Tom, you know,
part of the plet Talx NXT crew on the Pole
Torch Daily cast. But the other thing about NXT is
they no longer are what are AWAIT once was, which
is we're gonna scout and bring in the best indie
stars who have a buzz and bring them along and
have this next generation of top stars. And you know,

(01:16:08):
because Roh had those those eras and some were better
than others, but there was like you know, it was
this wave of new talent. They would become the centerpiece.
They replace people who moved on to WWE or even
TNA or Japan. And it was exciting to watch that
next generation come up, compete with some of the previous
generation and then take over almost like Saturday Night at Live.
You know, they have their their You can think of

(01:16:29):
different eras, you know, the Billy Crystal led era, that
Eddie Eddie Murphy led era. You know, like just you go, okay,
there was that era where those were the top stars.
NXT right now sort of feels stuck because ae W
has now replaced them as the company that has Darby
Allen and Sammy Gavara and signed Ricky Starks and Powerhouse

(01:16:51):
Hobbs and the acclaimed and I mean pick your guys
from ai W. Who are the exciting people with that
upward mobility, who then you want to see in the
mix with a Chris Jericho, where a Jake Hager or
for that matter of Dustin Road. Some of the veterans standbys.
NXT's lost that and I don't know, I mean, Cameron

(01:17:14):
Grimes was a good signing. Isaiah saur Scott has been
over exposed. He've been around a long time. Santos Escobar.
They've gotten a lot out of Carry and Cross obviously
good signing for impact.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
It's not like it's not there. You can pick some
names out, Damian.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
Priest, they got plucked from ROH and are doing big
things with But do you think I'm right in assessing
that NXT sort of lost some of that shine as
that go to place to find that next generation of stars.
It's just not as strong as it once was, and
that's working against them going into twenty twenty one for.

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
Sure, and as some of NXT's wounds or self inflict
this summer or not, you know, I think more so
than Ron and SmackDown, they're hurt by not having that
live crowd, because even if it was the small crowd
and it was the same face as that you saw
every week, I think that added a lot to the
NXT atmosphere and the potential then for them to tour,

(01:18:06):
which was disgusted at about the time that Covid was
hitting was taken out of the equation as well, So
I think they lose something by not having that. You know,
if you look at a show from NXT on the
WWE Network Compared to what you're seeing on the USA network,
I think they would look very different. Part of that
is now they're appealing to a broader audience, so their

(01:18:26):
storytelling is going to be more like WWE, where they're
trying to reach all kinds of fans and non fans
as opposed to just appealing to the hardcore fans with
their product on the WWE network. And the other thing
that I think we don't often talk about either is
NXT has a very large roster, and we're talking about

(01:18:46):
the people who appear on TV and the people who
haven't debuted on TV yet that are in training. Whatever
the case may be. I think some of it's kind
of luck in terms of getting the right balance of wrestlers.
NXT early on was able to get that balance and
to use that balance to its advantage. And I think
maybe that balance isn't right there right now in terms

(01:19:07):
of who are you not using that you could be
using on TV. Who are you using on TV that
could afford to take a step back and not be
the focus. You have this huge roster of potential players
in NXT, and it's hard to find that balance of
who to use, who not to use, who to focus on,
who not to focus on, And I'm not sure NXT

(01:19:28):
always gets that right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:30):
Yeah. Yeah, from the.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
Undercurrent of NXT talent, is there anybody who jumps out
that we've seen a glimpse of here and there that
you think in twenty twenty one will be someone they
give more TV time and more of a push to well.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Other than the fact that they are settled with a
cruiserweight tag. I think sort of Scott and Santransisco bar
are two that come to mind immediately as guys who
could break out if they're given the opportunity. But again,
that cruiserweight label is going to do a lot to
hold him back still, even in NXT, where you thought,
but maybe they wouldn't that that term wouldn't carry the

(01:20:05):
same baggage that it did on ww's main roster when
you know, you had the cruiserweight title on the pre
show of pay per views, or it was kind of
thrown onto Monday Night or all without a lot of
hype and you get a match and then they move on.
You know, you thought maybe with n XT it would
be a little different, and it just hasn't been the focus.
I think a lot of people were hoping it would be.

Speaker 8 (01:20:33):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate, and.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
I'm Chris Lansdowe join us as we covered the ever
changing landscape of New Japan as they navigate an era
with no lack of talent but a real.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
Need to create some news stars.

Speaker 1 (01:20:55):
You can stream then your seven stop on CAUs now
from Pro Wrestling Talk. We're talking a lot about the
men's side of things, but on the NXT front, they

(01:21:16):
tout we have the best women's division. They might have
the best potential center piece act in women's wrestling who's
available right now? And I'm eliminating Roda Rousei and Becky
Lynch And I'm not sure Rona would even count with
the baggage that comes with her. You know, Becky probably
would would be number one. But Ria Ripley they've got.

(01:21:38):
And when you think about what is NXT's identity if
they're not going to go all in with Adam Cole
as the lead babyface, He's the guy defining this era
and they instead go with I mean, maybe they tell
that story Karen Cross's heel and Adam Cole after they
get done kind of given to Kyler Riley his late
twenty twenty covid era Push singles Push. Maybe they do

(01:21:59):
end up focusing on Adam Cole again. Maybe Damian Priese
gets called up to the main roster. By the way,
Damian Prieste is the dark Corse to win the Rumble
and be an opponent for one of the one of
one or both champions. You know, when we talk about
what surprise could they pull? I don't think there's anyone
else left in NXT. But do you agree, like if
you had to pluck a name form NXT, it'd be
like Damian Priest or Well, now I'm changing my question.

Speaker 3 (01:22:19):
Greg.

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
Let's let's explore this briefly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:21):
Go back to the women, cause I know we'll hit
the one when I think about the Rumble because people
might have been yelling at us, you know, on their
on their headphones when we were talking about all the
potential Rumble winners. What about NXT and a call up.
I don't think there's a lot of options. I don't
think Aring Cross is.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
On that timeline.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
So I think you're looking at if they called Finn
Balor back, if he were to somehow lose the title
before then Adam Cole gets elevated and they're just sort
of biding their time for that moment, and then he
becomes the baby face challenger for Rains and they decide
to go all in and try to not do what
they've done with Riddle and Keith Lee and you know,
churn them through the fifty to fifty booking and the
up and down and let's teach you a lesson and

(01:22:55):
let's send messages and let's test you. They just go
with Cole or Damian Priest. To me, those are the
most likely Champus. Sort of feels like an NXT mainstay.
Johnny Gargano doesn't seem like someone Vince would push to
the top out of the gate, and like I said,
Karen Cross, it feels little too early, But I think
those three are legit candidates. I think we can eliminate

(01:23:17):
felve Team Dream for a lot of variety of reasons.
He would be in the discussion a year ago on
this topic. But does Balor, Cole and Priest seem to
cover the potential surprise appearance call ups and even finalists,
if not winners over rumble.

Speaker 3 (01:23:31):
I think so with the caveat that it would be
completely outside of WWE's booking norms to call someone up
from n XT and have them win a rumble and
put in that situation right off the bat. I think
Damian Priest, of those three that you mentioned, he wouldn't
be my choice, but he checks all of Vince micmahon's
boxes of what he looks for in a top star.
And we know that when your call up to the

(01:23:52):
main roster, sometimes your positioning an NXT doesn't really foretell
your position on the main roster. You know, we've seen
top stars in NXT headed right to the mid cart
in WWE and vice versa. So you know, even though
Damian Priest isn't a multi time NXT champion and hasn't

(01:24:12):
really had that under his belt, he's a guy who
would appeal to vincemc mahon's senses about what a top
star should look like and who he should be, and
so all of the three you mentioned, I would put
him at the top of that list.

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
Yeah, I think Adam Cole size is an issue. He's
certainly the most most talented with the most long term upside.
Finn Balor I think would be a little too soon
for it to matter a lot, just based on how
he was portrayed before he left the main roster and
giving him more of a run in NXT I think
makes the most sense. So to me, yeah, Priest most
likely Cole would be Cole and Priests are both intriguing

(01:24:46):
to me. I mean, I'm not anti Damien Priest. I
think for a w W style he fits well and
as a heel against Drew or kind of cool who left?
Do you think you are? Roman Reigns baby Face. The
dynamic there could be interesting. I'm not sure they're ready
to go all out with him at that level at
this point where maybe Adam Cole they are. If there's
just this this enormous respect for him internally and a

(01:25:08):
good reputation and all that, plus they might feel we
need to do it in order to keep him happy
because you know, when his contract expires. However, you know what,
it's at least a couple of years down the road,
but when his contract expires or is coming up, you
know he's going to be a prime target of aw in.

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
I think they pay top dollar for him.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
So WB might want to get what they can out
of him and also keep him happy and find a
way to increase his pay to where it might be
outside of what AW wants to pay and giving him
a big push is one of the ways to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:25:35):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
Okay, So dialing back to my last question, Rhea Ripley
gives NXT. It could be the identity of NXT. She
could be the person who in twenty twenty one, when
you think who's the top star, you don't default to
the men's division and instead, I mean we look at

(01:25:58):
you know, the ratings come back for NXT. Last week
was on Was was on, a show where Ria Ripley
headlined against Tony Storm, and they went to seven hundred
and sixty six thousand viewers after having been at six
fifty nine and six fifty eight and.

Speaker 2 (01:26:18):
Six thirty three.

Speaker 1 (01:26:19):
Are six thirty eight, six thirty two, six twelve five
of the prior six weeks. Those were their numbers. They
had tipped a little bit about seven hundred thousand a
couple weeks before that, but they had a rating surgeon.
It was on a show that was built around Ripley,
and they took some viewers away from AW a week
after hitting their their the highest numbers since the beginning
of the year with stings. So I just look at

(01:26:41):
her and go, I know, you know, Triple A is
sort of like, Yeah, things didn't go exactly as I
kind of promised you guys they would because of COVID, and.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
You know, there's some factors at play.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
Israa Ripley someone NXT should just go ahead and just
build around they have with the oshari A and Bermoon,
Shazi Blackhart, Tony Storm, candis La, ray rakaal Kin Zalez,
Indy Hartweldecode Kai. They have a lot of established women
in that division that they can play around with to
keep Ria Ripley interesting enough storyline wise on TV and
big matches on takeovers. Can you make a case let's

(01:27:10):
not talk about who's going to be the male centerpiece.
Let's make Ria Ripley the identity of this brand in
twenty twenty one and use that as a way to
battle AW, which has a weak women's division, but frankly
some better star power on the male side.

Speaker 3 (01:27:23):
And I'm curious as to what Ripley's future is in NXT.
You know, is she going to be around for the
duration of twenty twenty one. Is she going to be
a main roster call up? I would expect her to
be in the Women's Royal Rumble, but just because they
need the numbers from NXT to fill out the thirty
person Rumble, and so you know, you're talking about Rumble winners,
I think it's more likely that x that the Women's

(01:27:46):
Rumble would feature an NXT winner as opposed to the
men's Rumble. So I mean, I think if you want
to talk about a dark horse for the Women's Rumble,
you got to talk about Rihea Ripley. How it would be.
It would be something if Charlotte, you know, Charlotte and
Oscar are going to come to blows at some point.
It's a matter of time over the Women's Championship, and

(01:28:07):
if Charlotte defeats Oscar somewhere between now when the Royal
Rumble and Rihea Ripley wins the Rumble, how about you know,
Rihea Ripley challenging Charlotte for the Raw Women's Championship a
year after Charlotte won the Rumble and decided to challenge
Riha Ripley. You know, I think that could be a
little bit of redemption for some poor handling. I think
of the the Ripley Charlotte storyline and the aftermath of

(01:28:28):
it last year.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Kind of a WrestleMania worthy full circle moment.

Speaker 3 (01:28:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it won't make up for everything they
did last year, but I think it would get Ripley
on the right track if they wanted to make her
a permanent member of the main roster. But yeah, you know,
I think she's someone who just stands out. You know,
there are a lot of women in NXT who stand
out for various reasons, and I think Ripley, with her look,
with her attitude, with her entering style that's just so aggressive,

(01:28:56):
she really stands out above all the others who stand out,
you know. So, if you wanted to build NXT around here,
and I think you bring up a good point way
about the dichotomy between AW and and NXT, and how
can NXT differentiate itself from AAW so that viewers want
to check out that show if you made it more
female centric, if you made it more focused on the

(01:29:19):
women's division and all the talented superstars that are in
that division at NXT and sort of draw that contrast
between NXT and AW with the women's divisions. I'm interested
to see how, over the long term, how that would
work out for NXT, because I can't imagine it would

(01:29:39):
do a lot worse. You know, I think the NXT
fans that are watching are the NXT fans, and I
don't think it's going to offend their sensibilities to have
the show more focused on the women than it already is,
since you know, many NXT fans love the NXT women's
division as it is. But yeah, that's an intriguing topic
to think about.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to address,
or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else
going on in pro wrestling that you want us to
address on our main podcast during our Mailbank segments, that

(01:30:23):
same email applies Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
We invite that interaction, let us know what you think
of what we're saying and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadkeller podcast at PW Torch dot com. I was asked

(01:30:43):
on a Weightkeller hotline for VFP members earlier this month,
and I answered it at length.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
How different would aw B if if in NXT, if
they switched rosters?

Speaker 1 (01:30:56):
If and there's you know, a lot of implausibility and
if fans are about to make it kind of unrealistic.
But if you dropped into the ae W motif, the culture,
the brand identity, Adam Cole, Finn Balor, Damian Priest, Champa,
Kyle o'iley, Carrie and Cross, Johnny Gargano, Cameron Grimes, Timothy

(01:31:21):
Thatcher like you, and then the the tech divisions such
as it is in NXT and the women is AW
better off for worse off? If suddenly I don't even
know like what sports analogy to use, you know, when
there's just been a major trade where you know a
team is almost remade entirely, I guess you had the
Cleveland Cavaliers trading Lebron James.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
Is suddenly that a whole different team? I mean, I
don't know what what to compare it to.

Speaker 1 (01:31:43):
But if suddenly AW just replaced a roster with with
NXT's top tier, and it is is is AW better
off or you take the ae W top guys, And
why I take.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
The AW top guys because it's safer. You know, I
don't think we've seen the women pushed in a national
company in the way that it would take for them
to be more valuable than the AW men ever, you know,
just the fact that you would be trying something completely

(01:32:18):
different than what has really been done save for a
few times on WWE programming over the short term. But
I think that the better bet, the safer bet, is
taking aw's men's roster over NXT's women's and implanting them
into AW. I think AW would love to have NXT's
women's division. I think it would be even harder for

(01:32:40):
the men to get TV time because they no longer
are you doing sort of one segment for show or
whatever the case may be with the women on AEW.
But now all of a sudden, you're finding room for
all these women who were in NXT. So uh yeah,
that's kind of my first blush an out of it
without going a lot further in depth. But you know,
just because I'm I'm a play it safe guy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:00):
So with the men well, and you know, when you
think about and the question is is sort of more
of of an exercise in how much of what AE W?
How much of AW success is the booking philosophy and
the branding and the or the origin story of it,

(01:33:23):
where it's not a non w B product without descripting,
without the booking baggage, without the idea that it's the
minor league where if someone gets big enough, oh, Damian
Priesting gonna be called up brandam Cole, we can't wait
till he's in there with with Roman reigns, it doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
Have that baggage.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
So if you take Cole and Priest and Carrying Cross
and Gargano and that group and you put them in
a W, is there enough talent and star power to
make it not seem like a drop off but just
as exciting And to me, like, I think AW is
brought together a really good roster, And I think I

(01:34:02):
would take aw's male roster for what AW does, because
Moxley's amazing, and Jericho's got the legendary star power, and
Kenny omega Is has has risen up now to a
point where I you know, I don't know that you
trade him for Adam Cole straight up right now. A
month ago, that might have been a much more interesting
discussion point. Even though Kenny's older than Paige.

Speaker 3 (01:34:24):
You know, they're so.

Speaker 1 (01:34:27):
You know, they're just with Cody and Moxley and Jericho
and Omega as your top top guys. I just think
it's part of it, Part of it's illustrative of part
of NXT's problem is that the star power just isn't
quite there to match aw's men's division right now, because
AW has really assembled a diverse but really good male

(01:34:48):
singles division, which, as much as they push their take
team wrestling as much as NXT push as women, this
is still a singles male, top tier driven business. And
it's it's that that is still the determinate, the most,
the most influential factor and rating success at this point,
for better or for worse, it just is so. I
still would take AW over NXT, I don't. I think
part of and I say that because I think part

(01:35:09):
of what's holding NXT back is the culture and the
brand and being under the w umbrella, being the third brand,
people knowing that if they get too successful, they're going
to be called up. The booking the smaller arenas versus
a w's bigger arenas. That all plays into it, But
Tony Kahn and company just deserve credit for assembling a
really good top tier male roster and then having the
exciting darby Allen Rickey, Stark, Samcovar types on the undercurrent.

Speaker 3 (01:35:33):
Yeah, I think if you were to move aw's and
it is a lot about booking, right, because if you
moved aw's roster to NXT, I think you'd see the
same wrestlers focused, right, Yeah, see Christ Jericho, you would
see Cody, you would see you know a lot of
the same wrestlers. But you move NFT's roster over to AW.
You know, I get the sense that sure, you know,
Adam Cole will will be a focus, and the Undisputed

(01:35:56):
Era and some others who get a lot to Champa
and Gargana. But I just I get the sense that
the eyes booking AW would a few guys who are
being underutilized and maybe even women who are being underutilized
in NXT and give them a different look and give
them a different push than what they're getting an NXT.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
Do do you have a for instance, in mine h
not really like I just.

Speaker 3 (01:36:22):
Get with their booking and their eye for talent and
their ability to sort of think on their feet and say,
you know, if this guy impresses me, now let's move
him into a prominent position. Let's not wait for him
to you know, do this fifty to fifty booking, stay
in the mid cart, earn his way to the top,
and all that stuff that you hear a lot about
in WWE and to a lesser extent NXT. I think

(01:36:43):
they're more proactive when it comes to identifying someone who
impresses them and then immediately putting them into a prominent role.

Speaker 1 (01:36:53):
How important is it in twenty twenty one, or how
important could it be if NXT does to were and
starts running TV every week or at least on a
semi regular basis outside of a home venue where it
looks like a big production. And because to me, part

(01:37:14):
of what holds NXT back even though I've established the
foundation that I think AW just has a stronger and
a stronger, more diverse mix of up and comers, established
star power legacy names where they have an advantage there.
If you put Damian Priest and Adam Cole and Tomaso Champa.
I mean, when we think of those takeovers in big arenas,

(01:37:35):
NXT's never felt bigger. The stars of NXT have never
felt bigger. When you have ten thousand people going absolutely
apeeshif for NXT's top stars and feuds, it makes NXT
feel so much bigger than the you know, studio setting
that they've and they do a great job setting up
the NXT venue. I mean, I think that they've they've

(01:37:56):
done a really nice job making that feel as big
as it can be, but it just can't compete with
a W When NXC is trying to compete with AW
on a star power basis, Ria Ripley comes across as
a much bigger star, much more definitively, along with the
rest of the women's cast and the tape teams and
especially the men. If there's you know, six to ten
thousand people cheering them at a bigger venue, and I
just don't know if they can overcome that. If AW

(01:38:17):
starts running major arenas again, that the.

Speaker 3 (01:38:22):
Ability to run major arenas with a big crowd is
going to help any company, So you know, of course
it's going to help NXT and how it's viewed compared
to AW on Weekly Television getting out of it. And
I talked earlier about how not having a real crowd
hurts NXT. Even in that small setting, it added so much.
So if you then transpose that to a major arena

(01:38:43):
with a you know, a big crowd, then yeah, it's
gonna help tremendously, And it's gonna to the viewer who's
flipping back and forth. It's going to put them maybe
on a little more even footing with AW. But yeah,
that would be true of any any company that's going
from a smaller arena to a bigger one. I just
don't know is n XT going to consistently draw those
numbers enough to make it financially worthwhile for WWE, who

(01:39:06):
has gotten used to making big money during this pandemic
by not having to travel. Is it going to be
worth it for them to draw maybe an extra fifty
one hundred thousand viewers on Wednesday night to take the
financial hit that it would cost. Although you are you
are getting ticket sales, but it depends on how briskly
those tickets sell, and can you can you travel every week?

(01:39:28):
You know? Do you do one one week a month
outside of the NXT arena? Or how do you do it?

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):
So and that would be enough.

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
So that'd be enough to just see if it makes
the difference, you know, And even if it didn't make
a difference in the weekly ratings dramatically, I think it could.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
I don't want bet it would, but I think it could.

Speaker 1 (01:39:45):
But it would give your rising stars a chance to
be seen in that atmosphere on a regular basis by
the TV audience. And if you have six to twelve
thousand people cheering at them coal and carrying cross in
a big arena atmosphere, I think that pays dividends even
when you're back at your whole base.

Speaker 3 (01:40:02):
It can eliminate that excuse. You know, we can try
it for six months and say, you know, this didn't work,
let's cross it off the list. Let's see what else
we can do. And so Omagan Wwe is so so
afraid to to really tinker and to try something new
to see if it'll help the ratings, that they don't
think of things like that, or they don't do things

(01:40:24):
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
Holk Hogan talked Dixie Carter into doing it, and it
practically broke the company, and it caused Dixie Carter's parents
to cut off her her wrestling allowance because it was
they were just it was so expensive in a but
Hogan needed that as an excuse. He Hogan needed the
idea that they weren't live every other week and at
major arenas. He needed that to be an excuse. And

(01:40:48):
once they essentially called his bluff and said okay, we'll
do it, and then the ratings didn't change even though
he's on the show and he wasn't selling tickets, it
kind of pulled the curtain back on the Wizard and
and Hogan you know, lost some stature at that point.
I mean, because it wasn't oh, we need to get
out and meet the people, and Dacy Carter said it
on my show, you know, we need to get out
to the to the to the different markets, and they

(01:41:09):
need to get see our wrestlers in person. While they
just didn't turn out and it burned through the money
and teenage budget was just decimated by it. So it
can also expose you, you know, like if NXT goes
to the major arenas and they start running and it
doesn't help close the gap, then that takes away that excuse.
And that that's why I'm interested in seeing that happen.
I'm not rooting for against it being proven right or

(01:41:30):
wrong as much as I'm rooting for it because I
think it would be really interesting to see what kind
of difference it would make. But the the visual of
Adam Cole coming out to in a basketball arena, hockey
arena and getting a huge baby face reaction against you know,
as he's cutting a promo to build up a takeover
match against Carying Cross, just means so much more than
it is in a performance center setting.

Speaker 3 (01:41:51):
Yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:41:59):
I'm Kelly Well, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:42:19):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:42:32):
Okay, I want to wrap up here with one more major,
semi major dark topic, and that is this Impact Wrestling
and Kenny Omega floating over there with Don Kallis and
where Impact fits in when you think about the Omega
aew Impact dynamic. Where does it stand? Where do you
think it's going? And how broad is the range of

(01:42:54):
how long this lasts and how big of a thing
this turns into In twenty twenty one.

Speaker 3 (01:42:59):
Well that's all I You know, you see Kenny Omega
being on the January pay per view for Impact, so
you say, okay, he's going to be wrestling for Impact.
That was unknown. We didn't really know what his role
was going to be an Impact. Was he just going
to show up a few times with Don Kallis and
that was going to be it? But you know, here
he is. You assume that, given Rich Swan not being

(01:43:24):
able to to see Kenny Omega on that very first
episode that they were on Impact, that eventually it's going
to lead to a Swan Omega match. You would assume
that would be on an Impact pay per view. So
after January, I'm not sure when their next pay per
view would be. Maybe May, I think so it would

(01:43:46):
have to at least stretch that far. And to be honest,
I'm not I'm not sure how much aw A Impact
have plotted out. You know, I think there's something to
be said for long term booking, especially top programs like
this is with Kenny Omega, But when you're dealing with
another company, I think there's also something to be said

(01:44:08):
for taking it week to week because you never know.
You don't want to be building for something and all
of a sudden one of these companies gets cold feet
and pulls out. So this could be something they're booking
very short term, coming up with ideas using them when
they have them. You know, how long can Kenny Omega
and Don Callis stay in the bus and have them
do interviews with Josh Matthews and Carl Anderson. You know,

(01:44:30):
I think we'll learn a lot. Probably it impacts next taping,
and I'm not sure when that's going to be because
I think the next two weeks are going to be
best of shows on Impact, so there's not gonna be
a lot of new material there unless they do wrap
arounds that they've recorded previously with Omega. So, you know,
I think once we step into twenty twenty one and
we have the first new taping of the cycle for Impact,

(01:44:51):
I think that's going to be a tell and I
don't you know, Impact spoilers don't tend to get out.
There's no one in there to spoil them, so, you know,
but maybe that first episode of the taping, we're going
to see just how much is discussed, just how much,
just how much the show changes to appeal to maybe
an expected broader audience, pulling in the AEW fans that

(01:45:14):
that Kenney Omega has brought in.

Speaker 1 (01:45:16):
What's what is the end game and best case scenario
for AW and impact in this relationship in terms of
is it culminating in uh uh? Does AW have an
interest in building up impact enough to then capitalize on
it with some sort of wwwf in or promotional battle

(01:45:37):
to try to build up Is that even in the
rama possibility for impact and what it makes sense for
AW to divert attention and resources and bandwidth to to
trying to create that When you end up with the
Awkward Red Shirt Blue Shirt Survivor series dilemma of wait
is our heel company?

Speaker 2 (01:45:53):
Why are people invested in that? Like?

Speaker 1 (01:45:56):
Is that is that in the range of things that
you think, yeah, they could probably pull that off and
make it worth it, or are you like thinking, please
don't do that, Let's keep this to just kind of
a Kenny omegathing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:06):
If I'm AW, that's not very high on my list
of things I want to do because I think everybody watching,
even the Impact fans, acknowledge that AW is on a
higher plane right now than Impact. And if you start
doing some sort of interpromotional war, then that brings Impact
up to your level, or it sinks you down to
Impacts level. It does really nothing for you, right, And

(01:46:28):
you've got to be selfish when you're when you're in
the wrestling business, especially when you're AW and you're established
to a certain extent, but not established enough to where
you have, you know, billions of dollars where you're kind
of you have play money that you can go around
and say, oh, yeah, I want to I want to
work with this company. And you know, who cares how
we're seeing We're we're pretty tough on. I don't think
AEW is there yet, so they have to be very

(01:46:50):
careful and protective of their image. And the other reason
I wouldn't do it is just because it's so predictable.
Right anytime there's a whether it's ww F versus WCW,
whether it's you know, an XT versus WWE, the old
tried and true is some sort of inter promotional war,
and you know, I would like to think AW could
possibly be a little more creative and think a little

(01:47:10):
more outside the box than doing that. And whether it's
just with Kenny Omega right now, whether it's you know,
bring Anderson Gallows onto AW for something, but I think
having a full fledged all out war is just not
really beneficial in any substantial way to AEW. What's in
it for AW right now is the buzz. There doesn't
seem to be a lot. You know, you may get

(01:47:31):
a few Impact diehards who watch Impact on Access every
week to sample AW, but there's certainly not enough people
who watch Impact to make a sizeable difference in AEW's
audience each and every week, So you know, that's not it.
But I think, you know, just the buzz of getting
people talking about two companies, the size of these two
companies working together is really what's in it for AW,

(01:47:55):
at least at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:47:59):
Thanks for downloading to show.

Speaker 1 (01:48:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:48:32):
Pw Torch dot com slash go vip.

Speaker 1 (01:48:42):
Where does Our Way fit into the landscape now that
impact has been the profile has been raised, more people
are paying attention to them than had been with Kenny
There and Our Wait has closed out twenty twenty with
good reviews and a bit of a resurgence after taking
a lot of time off for covid. Where do they
fit into the overall landscape and what is their niche

(01:49:03):
and what is their main appeal? Coming out of Final
Battle last Friday, they're one of their market paper views.

Speaker 3 (01:49:09):
Yeah, I watched Final Battle. I hadn't seen Roh in
quite some time. I don't. I don't think I get
their syndicated show down here. I might, you know, it
changes every so often. I haven't looked lately, but I
know for the longest time, I didn't, so I wasn't
really keeping up on that. I would try to watch
their pay per views.

Speaker 2 (01:49:28):
But that says something because you keep up on almost everything,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:49:31):
I mean, you have so much time in the day unfortunately,
So yeah, that's you know. And so I always introduced
to some new characters that I had not seen on
Final Battle, and I was impressed.

Speaker 6 (01:49:41):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:49:41):
The wrestling was good, uh, And that's what you think
of when you think of Ring of Honor is very
quality wrestling with not a lot of frills, and I
thought Final Battle for the most part, had that. But
you know, I think it's going to be a struggle
for them, just as it has been when a new
company like AW sort of with its free sources, enters

(01:50:02):
the ear so to speak, it just knocks you down
a peg. And AW is presenting a lot of things
that ROH was known for, the good wrestling, a lot
of the wrestlers that had been a ro Oh. So
you're sort of siphoning off some viewers maybe from ROH.
And so I think it's it's really going to be
a struggle in the marketplace. And you know, I think

(01:50:24):
for a few months we argued about whether ROH or
Impact had the higher profile. Well, certainly Impact has taken
over that lead with them being involved in AW. I
think the lack of New Japan Association during this pandemic
has hurt ROH because that's one big thing that company
had going for them is they could bring new japan
wrestlers over and have them on their cards and really

(01:50:46):
drum up interest in the United States. But with the pandemic,
they haven't been able to do that. So I think
they're just trying to tough this situation out and get
past this pandemic and sort of reassessed where they can
find their niche in this all of a sudden, very
crowded marketplace in in in North America, and you've got MLW,
who's you know, making strides as well getting clearances in

(01:51:09):
other countries. You know, they're they're back up and running,
and so they've got some talent there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:51:13):
So and the nw A they do online, and yeah,
I'm not sure where NWA fits in, but and of
course you Japan in this market. I mean, when we
start getting to that level, we talk about, you know
the amount of time that people invest in in watching
New Japan's tournaments and big shows and how much that
takes away from them having the bandwidth to follow in

(01:51:34):
ro o H.

Speaker 2 (01:51:35):
And that's a factor too.

Speaker 1 (01:51:36):
I mean, it's it's an embarrassment of richest for wrestling
fans because there's so much to choose from and they
all have their own identity. But it does seem like
Ring of Honor is the one that is most poised,
given what they did late this year, to be more,
to be more in the conversation as having the ability
to continue with some live touring and being an actual
sustainable company that can compete for at least you know,

(01:51:59):
signing a few which has kind of been their thing.
You know, well, they can offer money enough money to
some names to beat out with the push that they
would get at the top to beat out instead going
to another company and being a mid card act that
might never get a nice and be featured well.

Speaker 3 (01:52:15):
And I think unfortunately for ro OH, they're the company
who when you as a fan are deciding how much
is too much? You know, how much can you how
much wrestling can you follow and watch on a weekly
basis and not have oversaturation? I think ROH may be
the company that's left behind. You know, you've got WWE,
who people will grumble about what they'll watch, or they'll
have on as background noise on Monday and Friday nights

(01:52:36):
just so they can kind of keep up with the
conversation going on online and with podcasts and stuff. You've
got AW who's doing a lot right and really, as
I said, it's filling a lot of niches that ROH filled.
You've got people maybe sampling Impact now that they're involved
with AEW. So you've got MLW which is getting kind
of a buzz online as well, and people are checking

(01:52:56):
that out as too. So you know, what's what's the
company you're going to drop? And I think unfortunately partially
due to the pandemic where they weren't running a lot
of shows, but ROH may be the one getting left
behind unless they can develop some really interesting characters that
break out or offer something different than you know, just
being the company with good wrestling isn't enough anymore because

(01:53:18):
every company to a certain extent has really good wrestling,
and that was what ROH was founded on. So they've
got to figure out if they can continue to sustain
that model or if they need to figure out what
niche is not being filled in the marketplace right now,
and how can we fill that?

Speaker 1 (01:53:33):
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, twenty twenty has been influenced
so greatly by the pandemic obviously, but as we you know,
get near the end here of twenty twenty, a lot
of discussions are typical discussions that we have, you know,
and it's nice we can be hopeful and project some
semblance of normalcy beyond Thunderdome and Capital Wrestling Center in

(01:53:55):
a semi empty Daily's Place and a completely empty Impact
zone an ROH TV set up. You know, we're getting
to a point where, you know, it'd be nice to
have and w a power back by by the end
of the year and and get some some things back
that are niche companies. But the way wrestling is distributed
and with a level of talent and the ability to

(01:54:15):
watch New Japan live, and I mean, like you said,
there's no shortage of good wrestling out there.

Speaker 2 (01:54:20):
There used to be.

Speaker 1 (01:54:20):
We've been watching this long enough to know when it
was it was scarce having great wrestlers feature.

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):
So I don't know if people you know.

Speaker 1 (01:54:28):
Fully appreciate how much it is an embarrassment of riches
when it comes to good matches, and then it does
come down to how are those matches featured, how, you know,
within the context of of the larger story of of
the wrestling companies, And that's where they get elevated to
the next level. And that's what's nice about what we're
seeing with Keny Omega right now. And and uh, you know,
Roman Rains and Drew McIntyre. There's some good champions on top.

(01:54:50):
And we'll see with Finn Balor, Caring Cross and Adam
Cole kind of how things shake out with NXT's top
mail stars. And yeah, Charlotte's back. Who knows what Becky's
future is, Rhea Ripley, you know, Shari, there's a lot
of exciting things going on on the women's women's side too.
So anyway, thank you, Greg. Anything else I didn't bring

(01:55:10):
up that is high in your radar? Should we wrap
up there now?

Speaker 3 (01:55:13):
I think we're good.

Speaker 2 (01:55:15):
Yeah, Yeah, we got the Legends Raw coming up.

Speaker 1 (01:55:17):
I knew they'd try to do something like that after
the holidays to spark of viewers viewership resurgence, although they
did last night draw one point two one rating, so
they rebounded back to where they had been the prior
two weeks, which were awful, but they didn't sink any
further from that one point one to two disaster. Last
week there was a chance, you know, they could drop

(01:55:39):
under one point zero if things went poorly on a
holiday week like this, and they didn't. So I think
they have some some some room, some buffer now so
we don't have to worry about them closing out twenty
twenty with a sub one point oher rating. I think
there's enough padding there that's unlikely next week, although they're
mostly pushing the Legend show right now.

Speaker 2 (01:55:59):
All right, cool?

Speaker 1 (01:56:00):
Follow Greg on Twitter at Greg m Parks and follow
me on Twitter at the Wade Keller, and follow our
brand at PW Torch. Greg, you will be taking this
Sunday off from Wrestling Night in America, but you'll be
back the week after that. So Zach Catorn filling in
for you on Sunday Night on Wrestling Night in America.
Sovery but he checked that out. But you can still
hear more of Greg, including his Night of Reaction for

(01:56:23):
from Sunday Night tlc Over on the p W Torch
Daily Cast. Just search PW Torch and subscribe and by
the time you're listening to This will be a couple
of shows ahead of it on the RSS feed because
it is a daily daily podcast show. But you can
find Wrestling Night in America a few a few a
few shows down on the listening and still download and
listen to it, so check that out. Greg is always

(01:56:44):
a pleasure and again Mary Chris yep.

Speaker 3 (01:56:48):
Same to you. Happy holidays and happy New Year.

Speaker 2 (01:56:50):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:57:10):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
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