5 YRS AGO MAILBAG: Keller & Parks talk Raw Underground and ideas where it’s headed, Rock-XFL, Baszler, Darby, Bryan’s future options

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
PW Torch and Speaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Five years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
This week on the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Mail
Bank episode, PW Toorch columnist Greg Parks joined me we
talked about Raw Underground and ideas where it might be
headed and the best and worst case scenarios of how
it might play out. Also the Rocks purchase of the XFL,
Shanna Basler's push, Daniel Bryant's future and whether he's better
off at XTWWEAW or otherwise in coming years. John Moxley

(01:36):
against Darby Allen and the MGF promo last week to
set up his all out match with Moxley, a new
Raw Faction tease the night before on Raw and more. So,
let's get to it. This originally dropped on August fourth,
twenty twenty, and it is today's Waight Keller Pro Wrestling
Podcast five years ago mail Bank flashback for Wednesday, August six,
twenty twenty five. All Right, Greg, Raw Underground. It's not

(02:02):
often you can say something as a talk of the
wrestling world without sounding like a wrestling promoter trying to
sell something, but this did kind of turn into the
talk of the wrestling world. We've got some emails to
get to in today's mail bank, but first I want
to get your take on what you saw last night.
Brandon Mclair and I talked about it with callers on
the weight Keller progressing post show last night, Brandon very negative.

(02:26):
I was critical, but open minded if there's a purpose
to this, well skeptical that there will be, if that
makes sense, because it's like there has to be. Right
What was your initial impression and where do you think
this has aded?

Speaker 2 (02:42):
My thoughts match up with yours almost exactly, Wade. It's
tough to say right now because it was dropped in
the middle of Raw with no context, and you had,
you know, Dolph Ziggler and one of the Viking Raiders
participating without any comments from them about why they were
doing it, what advantage they thought it would be to

(03:04):
participate in this thing, how it was organized by Shane McMahon,
what reason Shane McMahon had for organizing it. So there
are still a lot of questions up in the air
about from a storyline standpoint, what this is supposed to accomplish,
and we know from a non storyline standpoint, from a
reality standpoint, what this is supposed to accomplish. And I

(03:26):
think you know, if you've logged on to social media,
you're seeing exactly what WWE wants, which is to get
people talking about what happened on Raw last night. So
I agree that there are a lot of different directions
this could go. You know, there are a lot of
different purposes. This could serve that, in theory, could elevate
some wrestlers that, in theory could be used to set

(03:49):
up storylines and feuds going forward that would eventually culminate
inside the wrestling ring. Now do I have confidence that
that's something that WWE is going to successfully pull off?

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Like you, I don't have a lot of.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Confidence in that, And we're going to spend a note
out a lot of time talking about this here. But
I think it's just as likely that in a month
this disappears from television as it is to actually be
used to elevate any talents going forward, or to be
used to set up storylines or feuds, which is, you know,

(04:24):
it should be the purpose.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
I think the most likely. I hesitate because I'm going
to express some confidence in w W having a plan,
and I'm always you know, I realize there can be
some blowback for doing that, and rightfully so. But it
feels like this has to be a setup to create
some sort of wrestler who emerges with a certain fighting style.

(04:50):
But and and you know, maybe Shane manages him or
you know, is kind of a long distance advisor or
something like that. And they say, hey, here's instead of
doing traditional vignettes to introduce somebody or having them come
up through developmental with the exact same gimmick, let's create
this concept that looks like this, you know, kind of
pet project of the son of the of the son

(05:13):
of the rich, the son of the rich family. You know,
who gets to indulge it, you know, I mean, even
Tony Kahn in a way gets you know, as he's
not playing with money he earned from ground zero, you know.
And when you're the son of a rich family and
the family earned it from the ground up, his dad
certainly did, you get to play bigger games. And with
Shane as the son of Vince McMahon, he doesn't have
to do backyard wrestling or set up a you know,

(05:35):
play video games with his buddies or board games or whatever.
He actually gets to have this whole sidebar thing on
raw that's his brain child. And so you know, we
kind of, you know, just accept that that's Shane. And
he's been mostly popular over the years. And now the
question is is this an indulgence and a rating stunt

(05:55):
that is just sort of like a desperation idea, Let's
throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks. Or
is there a larger point? And I'm I'm leaning towards
there is a larger point. And one guy that crossed
my mind since last night's show was Dominic Dijakhovic and
bringing him in and kind of establishing, you know, okay,
this is a fight club. This is where you know,

(06:16):
kind of badasses show up, there's no rules, and and
they battle. I I don't really know where hert business
fits in in kind of the arc that I'm proposing
as a possibility, which is illustrative of what I hope
in a broader sense they're doing. But if this goes
on for a few weeks and then Donovan Djakovic shows

(06:39):
up and beats the sort of the clubhouse king, the
guy who has just been beating everybody other than say lastly,
who maybe stays above it, above it or outside of it,
and he wins, you sort of have established a guy
who has sort of in the in the wrestling realm.
And granted we're in a world now with with you know,
cinematic wrestling and the worldly things and the rules of engagement.

(07:02):
The narrative structure is a lot more pliable now than
it ever has been in WWE. And I'm more forgiving
of that because we're in a pandemic in their live fans.
And you I understand the the either the sense of
obligation or freedom to be quote more creative, but not
every not every idea should make TV based on that rationale.

(07:24):
But but I think this, this idea has potential. So
and and for people who say, well, it's totally unrealistic,
it don't look like MMA and what you know, like
it's like this is a land Worth with the Fiend
and swamp matches, this is a land of the John
Cena Firefly Finals. For Sonia match, we had a camera
shot looking up at edge in Randy Orton locking up
and there was no camera in the ring at that

(07:45):
moment in time and on and on and obviously undertakers
in his stuff. So I don't know, I mean, do
you think is that the most likely scenario or the
most hopeful, optimistic but naive scenario.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Greg Well, like I said, I think a lot of
scenarios you can play with, and it opens the door
for a lot of different creative things that wwe can
do from a storyline and feud standpoint, Dijakovic is one.
The guy who stands out to me in NXT is
Timothy Thatcher. You know, he's been portraying this character in
NXT where he is this sort of shooter kind of character,

(08:20):
and his skill set in the ring is very different
than a lot of the skill set you see on
the main roster. So if you were to bring him
up to Raw or SmackDown and just drop him in
the current ecosystem with his style, I don't know that
he would get over with that. I think if you
introduced him in this setting and he pummels guys for

(08:41):
weeks and then you move him into the ring, I
think you've already established him as that kind of shooter
character that he was in NXT. So he's a guy
that I think could succeed if you were to introduce
him in that Raw Underground ecosystem and then move him
into the ring. I saw somebody on Twitter last night
say this is the affect way to reintroduce Brock Lesner

(09:01):
for a match with Bobby Lashley. You know the hurt
business and Lashley played a very big part in Raw
Underground last night. I don't know if that's going to
be something that's going to continue going forward, but Lashly
has those amateur credentials. The Lashley Lesner match that has
always been talked about, And what better way to reintroduce

(09:22):
Lesner than to say, you know, I have Paul Hayman
cut a promo saying I was sitting back watching Raw
one night and saw this, and you know, this is
an opportunity for Brock Lesner to dominate something different in
the wrestling business. So unlikely, perhaps, especially with with SummerSlam
only a few weeks away, not a lot of time
to reintroduce Lesner. If you think he might be available

(09:42):
for Summer Slam, you know, it's just it is very different.
And the one thing that I would say that I'm
cautious about is any time you introduce into professional wrestling
a side MMA or shoot type story, is that you

(10:07):
have to then trust the audience to not ask questions about, Okay,
what's the difference then what's the difference between Raw underground?
Why are they fighting different? Especially when you introduce pro
wrestlers like Dolf Ziggler and like one half of the
Viking Raiders, why is what they're doing there. Why does
it look so esthetically different than what they do inside

(10:29):
the pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Ring and changes, I guess so their mind can't handle
it and it's a completely different atmosphere.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
But you know it, it shines a spotlight on okay
pro wrestling. The stuff you see inside the wrestling ring
with the ropes is fake, but this stuff is real,
And I don't think you want fans to get thinking
about what they see as fake versus what they see
as real. So you have to tread very lightly with
how you present the raw underground aspect of Monday Night

(11:01):
Raw if it's going to continue.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
That's been my argument against cinematic type approaches to wrestling
angles forever, going back to the mini movies WW produced
in the early nineties. I still feel like that was
a fever dream and it didn't really happen, with you know,
Davy Boyce Smith running down the beach and little people
on a boat tossing Vader over. But I don't even

(11:24):
remember what happened, I think, but it's it's been a
breaking away from the normal narrative structure and the rules
of engagement that fans sort of accept as how things
work in wrestling. Really can unravel the foundation of what
makes pro wrestling work. And I'm I would the twenty fifteen,
two thousand and ten, two thousand and five me would

(11:45):
be surprised of how accepting, if not embracing. I've been
a cinematic wrestling, but I do feel the fan base
and is in a different place than it was, for
better or for worse. And then we're without fans and
so it's time for creativity. And you know, I don't know,
we can blame Matt Hardy for a lot of this too,
you know, just creating an internet buzz in a second
second life. So people in wrestling are very are are

(12:12):
by nature, and I'm generalizing what a lot of people
on the creative side of wrestling are very creative people,
and they have outlandish ideas. It's never done before, This
has never been done before. I would like to see
more people who understand how to organic, how to create
a more organic scenario that is what has universally worked
and drawn the most money over prog wrestling's entire history.

(12:34):
And have some people who embrace and love and are
good at it try that, because you know, when you
watch Shane mcmando was saying you know. The rap on
Shane for decades, And I talked about this on the
way Keller Hotline for VP members last night in my
detailed raw rundown. The rap on Shane for decades from
wrestlers and bookers and referees and announcers who have talked

(12:54):
wrestling with him is he's not super solid on the
fundamentals of wrestling. B he's a I want to make
a splash. This is an idea I just thought of,
and he had like run these ideas by people, and
it was like he was a guy in line in
an autograph show who just couldn't wait a fantasy book
for a wrestler, and there's a long line of people
behind him, and they had this great idea and they
think it's going to change the wrestling business. It's like

(13:15):
move along, fan, come on, That's not how it's work.
And that's how Shane is, except he has a captive
audience because he's just another promoter. But there's been a
lot of eyebrolling with Shane over the decades for his
booking ideas, and this feels potentially like one of them
that made air. And that's why I'm hesitant to say
there's some master plan. I like Timothy Thatcher a lot
in this scenario, I think it's I think Dominic Dijakovic,

(13:39):
if he's going to get over, would probably need something
like this to really get him at a higher level
than I see him otherwise. And so I'm still intrigued
by him being sort of that because he just he's
got that. I mean, both Timothy and Dijakovic I think
would fit here, but Dijakovic I think would really benefit
from being the guy who just cleaned up in this
underground fight club and now what will happen in the ring,
because I think he can meld the matt based pummeling

(14:03):
style kind of hybrid that we see in raw Underground,
and I think Dojakhova could be more the JBL brawl
for all guy who just pummels people and that's all
it takes. And I think the credibility of Dijacovia coming
out of that scenario with that sort of aura about
him would elevate him quite a bit. I'm skeptical. I

(14:24):
loved him at the Thatcher and NXT. I am skeptical
that he can work as a top act in a
Vince McMahon run brand. So that's where Dijakovic to me
fits a little better. We're about to go to a
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(14:46):
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VIP or Patreon membership. Let's Puzzlet's introduce the show, Let's

(15:15):
get some emails on this and it'll, I think, spark
some other conversations and take us in other directions. We'll
definitely cover other topics, greg I promised last night. Everybody
knows you're a big XFL fan. We absolutely we'll get
into the rock and his his his and his ex wife,
his business partner buying the XFL with an investment group.

(15:35):
This is the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast. It is
the Tuesday mail Bank edition for August fourth, two thoy twenty.
By the way, happy birthday to Jason Powell from Pro
Wrestling dot Net. I want to get that in so
I don't forget as I mentioned the date because I
know August fourth is his birthday and we are answering

(15:56):
your email questions. Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com,
as always is how you reach us. That's Wade Keller
Podcast at petew torch dot com. I'll be buying tomorrow
night on the Way Keller Prosing post show covering AW Dynamite. Gregor.
I want to talk to you about the change in
schedule coming up for a few shows with Dynamite and
what that means to the ratings battle too. I'm not

(16:17):
sure if we got an email on that, but I
certainly want to bring that up, and then I'll be
back Thursday with the Flagship and then Friday with the
SmackDown post show. We rotate every other day on the
Red Brand for the post shows and the regular podcasts
here on our Blue Logo shows, so we appreciate you
subscribing to both and downloading both My co host today
is a longtime Pro Wrestling Torch columnist Greg Parks, who

(16:39):
anchors most weeks pay almost every week Page ten of
the Pro Wrestling Torch Weekly newsletter, which is available for
PW Torch VIP members and PDF format. It also is
available in an all text format for those of you
reading on your phones. And we also have paper copy
subscriptions available and you can go to PW torch dot
com and click on the link at the top of
the page to get information on subscribing. And Greg is

(17:01):
also a host of Wrestling Night in America on the
PW Torch Daily cast lineup. Just search PW Torch on
your podcast app. You are really missing out on some
great shows. A new show every single day on a
different topic each day of the week. Greg Parks hosts
Wrestling Night in America, which focuses on wrestling's biggest events.
They do post shows. Greg and some of his co

(17:21):
hosts do post shows after major pay per b Sunday
nights otherwise Sunday and primetime in the evening. They take
live calls and discuss recent major events and upcoming major events,
everything from New Japan to Impact to aew NXT WWE
and more. Greg, that's immultful. But you do a lot,
and you've been around for a long time contributing a lot,
and it's always great when you're a co host on

(17:42):
the show. On the mailbag here, welcome back to the
co host chair.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
Thanks. I enjoy being here with you. Wade excellent.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
Oh that was way shorter than my introduction of you. Well,
it wasn't really, you know, it makes sense. I'm just saying, Wow,
that'sn't quite great. Yeah, and catch my breath after all that.
All right, let's let's go right to some more or
some email hear some more conversation about rounder ground. First,
just after midnight last night, John Johnny and Alaska. Love

(18:08):
to hear from Alaska, says Puffy Red Shane fight club
tipped over boxes. What the beep is this beep? Sorry
for swearing, but seriously, what the F is this shit?
Johnny from Alaska. So last night on the way Keller
hotline for VIP members, I didn't even introduce a hotline.

(18:28):
I just I opened with camp Classic. I like, there
was so much on RA last night and I just
sort of feel like this is a show for better
or for worse that will be embedded in people's memories
for this era as a pandemic era show that could
become a camp classic for you know, the poisoning a

(18:49):
montest Ford, tipping things over, blowing things up, flicking flicking
lights on and off, and then obviously the women dancing
on the stage, and Shane getting to live out his
fantasy of running some sort of m M A prog
wrestling hybrid backs, you know, backstage event. I know there
was even more, but is rock Is last night's Row

(19:09):
destined to be a camp classic?

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
I think it would trend that way. There was a
lot going on, a lot different going on, and I
think it probably helped the ratings. You know, we don't
have the ratings as of when we're recording this, but
I'm I'm assuming WWE is going to see a bump
in the Raw ratings for last night, not only because

(19:35):
there was a buzz on social media about this, but
WWE dot Com, whether mistakenly or on purpose, had put
out that a new faction was debuting last night on Raw,
which was I guess the the group that was destroying
the electrical grid outside the PC. But they may have
saved that for next week's show because they were taping

(19:57):
two shows last night, and by all accounts, there was
a lot of confusion about what was going to go on,
what show and things like that, so there probably were
people tuning in to see that as well. But yeah,
you know, I think it all depends on where this
raw underground stuff goes, how long it lasts. If it
you know, poofed, its appears in four weeks, we may

(20:19):
not look back on this as I don't know as
fondly as you normally would with.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Nostalgia.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
And we know that even stuff that's terrible at the
time gets rose colored as the years go on and
people look back on things. So it could be a
camp classic or it could be just another notch in
the desperation belts of WWE as they're searching in vain

(20:46):
to find something to stop the rating slide on Monday nights.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah, it's a last show, last night show. If I
say camp classic, it might be another way of saying polarizing,
because I think that it is a show that appeals
to some people because it's off the beaten path. It's different.

Speaker 4 (21:00):
What Raw was.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Doing wasn't really working, So you know, I mean, when
you look at the ratings.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
You can't.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
They're not ruining a good thing by taking a chance
on doing things. It doesn't mean every idea should make air,
but I mean it's a largely negative reaction to the
raw underground concept. I put up a Twitter poll over
seven hundred votes, and since last night, forty three percent
give it a thumbs down. Only twenty percent of thumbs up,
more than a two to one margin of people who
have decided they like it or don't like it two

(21:33):
to one negative. I don't know if this blows Shamee
McMahon's mind or he thinks it's a fake poll or what.
But and you know, and I don't know how Vin's
felt about this, if he was like, this is great,
let's do it, or I don't get it. This could
be a disaster, but I'll what the heck, we got
to try something. Thirty seven percent are where I am,

(21:54):
which is, you know, healthy skepticism and criticism, but not
sure yet. You know, if it if it's just a
short term thing to like you say, pop a rating,
and popping a rating in this day and age means nothing.
If you turn people off who tune in. I mean,
you have to do things to draw an audience, but
you also have to do things that draw the audience

(22:15):
that make them want to come back for more. And
the Twitter response in case that's not happening here, that's
not what this is. But there's room to win people over.
I think even people who give it a thumbs down
are kind of curious where it's going next. And so
the key is is what we got what we talked
about at the top of the show. Is this leading
somewhere or did they go, hey, want to be cool?

(22:35):
If and they still don't know what to do, and
that's going to become pretty apparent as time goes on.
If they had a larger story arc idea in mind
with a good with a good payoff, well.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
You know, I'm surprised with that thirty are not sure yet.
Twitter is not exactly known for a spear as a
sphere where people just kind of sit back and don't
give rash reaction positive or negative. I mean, usually it's
it's one or the others. So to have more than
a third of respondents saying that they're really not sure
about the concept yet, I thought that was a higher

(23:11):
number than I expected, and I think it's to WWE's
benefit that those people may be the ones that tune
in next week and say, you know what, I'm not
sure about this. Let's see the follow up, you know,
Let's see how they present it next week. Let's see
after a week, do they tweak it, do they change
it again. It's kind of hard because now they're taping
two episodes of Raw on one night, so WWE can't

(23:32):
assess the reaction to that episode and then tweak it
based on that reaction because they filmed the second episode
of Raw next weeks before they were able to see
what the reaction was too Raw Underground this week, so
we may have to wait another week to see how
WWE really tweaks it and changes the concept.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
And sometimes, I mean, you're absolutely right what you said,
and it can be a good thing for WWE to
not get cold feet over the next week because of
any kind of reaction that they get in the sense
of give us a two part story, commit to it,
commit it to tape, and let's see what you had
in mind, and we'll get to see next week what
they had in mind. I don't know if any spoilers

(24:13):
have come out or you know, how they it's possible
that the ruderground stuff is such a close set that
unless some of the dancers on the stage or you know,
I get I mean, there's probably some many guys who
are partaking in the fight who might you know, leak
some stuff too. But if they can keep under wraps
where this is going, even on the pre tape, certainly
that's my preference in this era. You know, blasting spoilers

(24:36):
without warning about a wrestling series isn't my favorite thing,
and I but you know, I know some people crave that,
but I'm kind of hoping we don't get that. But
I also know next week we're probably gonna see a unfurnished,
unaltered view of the original vision. If next week's show
was live, we will never we would have never known
what the original vision was because they might have tweaked
it based on the feedback. So I'm not saying it's

(24:58):
good for WW We did not be able to rea
bond of feedback. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, But
I'm happy we get to at least see the first
two episodes, probably unless they just you know, edit a
bunch of stuff out and throwing one video features because
they're so embarrassed or something. We're gonna see what they
had in mind with a two week story arc. Same thing,
by the way, with the Invading Faction, which we'll we'll
get into eventually too.

Speaker 5 (25:22):
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Speaker 1 (26:33):
Let me throw out another email, This one a little
bit longer than the last one. This first email or
second email comes in from JACKA from Swansea, Wales. Hey waiting, Greg,
Hope Paul is good with you. I was waiting curiously
to see what this big concept was by Shane. I
did not expect to see this at all. I'm a
big USC fan, and knowing that people like Zigler and
Shelton Benjamin are legitimate amateur wrestlers made it quite interesting

(26:54):
for me. I like the whole feel of it. It reminded
me of some fight fighting films I've seen. I totally
get the part where people will think the wrestling in
the ring isn't as legit as underground fighting, but we've
all been crying out for something different, and I think
this is a different feel and something to look forward
to in the show. I'm not sure whether it's going
to be here to stay, but can you imagine Bobby
Lashley versus brock Lessner out of this, which is obviously

(27:17):
a dream match, or Shana Basler are getting Sasha or
Bailey to fighter there. I do think this could all
be really good for Lashly and design him as the
big boss at the end of the game you have
to defeat and somebody like Matt Riddle finally beats him.
I found Lashly one of the most boring characters on
the show before Mania, but now I'm really invested in
his story. Thanks guys, stay safe. Yeah, Matt Reynold's another
guy who who you know, could end up visiting Raw Underground.

(27:39):
You'd have to have a probably post draft or you know,
a guest visit. I mean, I know there for what
two weeks we had the guest pass. You got to
use a guest pass like three times a year or something,
and they just complete. I bet Vincent Mann doesn't even
know that was a thing. Now when they were sharing
talent and they had this whole thing, It's like there's
a structure to it. You get X number of weeks,
you get to I don't even know, and I mean

(28:00):
it hasn't it's just abandoned it. It's just so weird.
So yeah, I mean, I'm Matt Riddle, somebody else who
could be in there. The idea of this being a
place where Sasha Banks or Bailey would go. I just
don't buy it. I think this has to be a
really kind of closed set ecosystem where it is just,

(28:20):
you know, kind of the people that you would imagine
would enter a brawl for all would go having it
just I think it would really expose Sasha and Bailey
in a way that would amplify your point, which is
it would make it would make people who are really
good at the art of pear wrestling in the more
traditional sense look bad or weaken. You would then have
to kind of like tilt your head and just wonder,

(28:43):
why are they so good when there's ropes and everything
they're doing looks so bad? Or they're losing when there's
no rope. It's just I don't know that that would
would land. So to me, I'm feared. I think this
is dangerous to be doing what they're doing, Like they
can need two hands on the wheel and they really
need to think this through. I think they can make
could work to create a new star. I don't think
it's sustainable six or nine or twelve months from not

(29:04):
to still be doing this regularly, but entering a Baysler
versus Shane or a Bailey thing. I, Greg don't. I
don't think that works.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
You're right that there are only or there should be
only certain wrestlers who work in this environment. And luckily
for WWE, they have a lot of wrestlers on their
main roster or an NXT who do have either MMA
credentials or amateur wrestling credentials who would fit in in
this environment. Dolph Ziggeler was one of them we saw
on Monday Night. He's not a guy that you would

(29:36):
first come to mind when you think of something like this,
but when you saw the way he was, you know,
positioning himself and doing the takedowns and stuff, it seemed
to all come back to him.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
You know, his his Kent State wrestling.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Days, and you know Shelton Benjamin is another one, Bobby
Lashley obviously, Chad Gable, Matt Riddle. So there are a
host of wrestlers who could work in this environment. I
think the key is what you said, you can't put
people in this environment who who don't have that background,
because I think they will stand out and it will
if you're trying to make this look real, it will
expose that and it will expose them. And I don't

(30:10):
think that's what you want to do here. I would
like to get it would be kind of cool to
have almost you know, depending on how often they get
back to it, is it's just going to be a
third hour thing where they cut in every few minutes,
or is it going to be, you know, something that's
going to be interspersed throughout the show. I'd almost like
to kind of get their own announcers for this, where
if a Dolph Ziggler is wrestling, you can have those wrestlers,

(30:32):
have those announcers hammer home the credentials that would make
the viewers at home think that this person is legitimate
and this person is someone who you should take seriously
in this kind of environment, even though they may not
be someone you'd necessarily take seriously in the pro wrestling
environments based on what they've done to that point.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
So I think that would be cool.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
I think one thing that hurt it last night is
too many of them were quick, and I guess I
get why they did that, because you don't want to
go longer and expose things. You only want to give
the fans a taste of what you know could be
down the line. You know, you don't want to the
first time out. You don't want to stay with the
too long and have fans say, yeah, this isn't for me,

(31:16):
let me change the channel. You still want to keep
them intrigued, but too often the quote unquote matches all
kind of looked and felt the same. So I think
the key is as you're going forward with this, is
make sure that they feel and look different, and you know,
don't always end them so quickly, because that's not always realistic,
especially for the fans of pro wrestling who are also

(31:37):
fans of MMA, and there are quite a few of them.
That's not going to ring true to those people. So
there are a lot of butts with this, definitely for sure,
but it is. It is intriguing, and I'm intrigued to
see where they go with it, you know. The but
like you said, this is something they've got to have
two hands on the wheel with it. Definitely handle with

(31:57):
care if they are serious about well making this something
where they can get a star or two out of this,
or they can get major storylines or major feuds out
of this. If they're serious about it, then they definitely
have to be careful.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Jackie did send a follow up email. I meant to
uh or want to get to here. Hey guys, just
to add to my first email for what it's worth.
I told my brother, who hasn't watched wrestling in ten
to fifteen years, about this part of the show, and
he's a big MMA fan, and when I said Bobby
Lashley was part of it, he immediately went to YouTube
to watch this to see what it was all about.
He said it reminded him of something WWF would do

(32:31):
and he would watch it next week. And he says
other names you could add to this list would be
Chad Gable, Alistair Black, Seamus, Baron Corbyn with his Golden
gloves boxing background, Samoa Joe, and Osca. Not sure about Osca,
I mean, I mean, yes, if you did a women's
division of this of you know, gritty underground fighting people,
Osca could make it work, but I'm not sure it

(32:53):
fits her character much. But yeah, if you're trying to
actually kind of build a raw underground like division or
subdivision or w B network show that's like cinematically produced
and drops every week or once a month, because maybe
this is setting up a spinoff, you know that's going
to be on w B network because ww network, if
they're going to eventually sell pay per view rights to
another distributor. They need w B Network to be something

(33:15):
people feel that they need to keep, you know, a
high percentage of people. And with NXD being on USA,
they've lost that weekly series. The network still has a
takeover specials, assuming they don't get spun off to some
distributor who knows what the landscape is next year when
they kind of start revisiting the idea of selling off
pay per view rights, but a raw underground concept run
by Shane with its own caster, wrestlers and some visitors

(33:37):
from Raw NXT and SmackDown again. I'm just kind of
throwing that out there. Maybe this is the beginning of
something like that with a out weekly forty eight to
sixty minutes cinematic, heavily produced show, or maybe just monthly
specials on WB network. And that's the case. Yeah, I mean,
the wrestlers that Jack mentioned could either work if it's

(33:57):
not that but something else, or if it is something
like that. They have enough wrestlers that you'd kind of
be intrigued to see them visit this world from time
to time.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, They're just it's funny because it's there's so many
ideas and so many what ifs and so many butts
going on in my head right now. It's hard to
like sort them. So I'm not, you know, spilling them
out all at the same time where it sounds like
word salad. But yeah, you know that there's it's been
one week. Uh, there are a lot of unanswered questions,

(34:27):
and we touched on some of them at the beginning
of the show, so it's kind of at this point
you just kind of sit back and say, Okay, let's see,
let's see how many answers WWE does have or that
they're willing to divulge next week.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yep, I agree. You can support us on Patreon and
get these shows with ads and plugs remove, the weight
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Check it out patreon dot com slash PW Torch VIP

(35:05):
that's patreon dot com slash PW Torch VIP and you
can also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more
benefits through Patreon. All right, another email here. This comes
from Michael from Cleveland. He says, just a quick thought.

(35:25):
We all saw the five part Undertaker documentary on w
Network and learned about the close friendship between Undertaker and Shane.
In the final episode, what if Shane is setting the
stage for his buddy Undertaker to return as the American
Badass and Raw Underground is a place where it happens
WWB killed off the supernatural and mystique that followed the
dead Man for decades. Where else is there from Mark

(35:46):
Callaway to go now that the now that the curtain
has been pulled back, could Raw Underground, while well intentioned,
to be the nail that finally ends the Undertaker's career.
So I don't know if he means like the end
of the the Supernatural dead Man Taker and is a
new start for the fifty something physically broken down American
badass character to rise from the ashes, or if it

(36:08):
just like this is a bad thing for him and
it would be the end. I again, you know you
say it's a word. You know you have so many
thoughts on what ifs and where this could go. I
don't see this as a vehicle for Undertaker. I'm mean,
I can't rule it out that this would be that
the culmination of the Again, I'll just play out one
scenario for illustrated purposes. If it were Dominic da Jakovic

(36:32):
and he's dominating and somehow they found a way to
lean to some sort of thing where he's dominating, but
he turns on the fight organizer Shane and says, you know,
bring you know, I'm gonna take this thing over. You
bring me your best guy, I'll take him on, and
then American badass shows up. I mean, it would give
you an opportunity to have an Undertaker match in a
cinematic environment that doesn't involve the Dead Man, that where

(36:54):
people would be intrigued, and it could be sort of
a star making payoff to this whole thing. Are a
Dominic Dijakovic or whomever is in that role. So I mean,
I guess I can imagine a scenario that Michael from
Cleveland is is saying, I would consider it highly unlikely.
But if it intrigues Undertaker, and if Shane and Taker

(37:15):
were you know, brainstorming or one pitch to the other,
I mean, it is a way to get Taker on
a WrestleMania type show or a special fall you know,
pay per viewer. I don't think I can do in
time for Summerslune. That's way too fast of a turnaround.
But I mean I couldn't just rule it out out
of hand that in the end, maybe American Badass shows
up to take on somebody who has proven to be

(37:36):
the King of Raw Underground until that moment, and then
they cinematically film it in a way that protects Undertaker physically.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
You said a little while ago that you don't see
Raw Underground being a super long term idea and for
the Undertaker to get to WrestleMania presumably a WrestleMania you know,
I think with his bump card looking the way it
is even in cinematic matches, I think he's a kind
of a guy you've got to save for WrestleMania. At
this point, I find it hard to believe that they

(38:04):
can stretch out this concept all the way to get
to WrestleMania and have the Undertaker face a Dijakovic or
whoever the King of Raw Underground is at that point.

Speaker 3 (38:12):
That's that's an awful long time.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
That's not to say that there aren't stories within that
culture that WWE can take advantage of. They've just shown
no real ability to do that in the recent past,
so I don't trust that they could keep the momentum
going that long to where there's so much interest in
it by that point. And I also think it's easier
within the environment of WWE wrestling in the ring to

(38:39):
imagine the Undertaker for as old as he is, for
as beat up as he is. And you know, the
as good as the series about the Dead Man was
on WWE Network, it did.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
Expose to a lot of people just how beat up.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
And banged up and and how broken down Mark Callaway is.
It's a lot easier to in the context of a
pro wrestling match understand that even if he is older,
even if he is more broken down, he can still
get by on wiliness and guile and things like that
to get him.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
To a victory.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
It's a lot harder to suspend that disbelief within the
environment of what we've seen of the raw underground so far.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, yeah, I'm just so happy we got to hear
you say wiliness and guile. I love I love that
that is so perfect.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
All those kind of words out from time to time.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
I love it. I love it all right, let's go
to Jason VIP member from Saint Louis. I don't transition
us into a raw, underground topic but also something broader.
Hey waiting Greg understanding that WWW has a longer track
record of making bad decisions. But is there still a
double standard when it comes to a w and WW

(39:53):
eight AW announces the Deadly draw with more women than
they have signed, and AW fans go wild. Even though
the lethal lottery from WW is not well received back
in the day, WWE does ronder ground and even before
the show's over, the hate for the new and different
idea is crapped on. The hate is crapped on. I
don't know if that's quite what he means, the idea

(40:14):
is crapped on with hate anyway, Yes, thank you Jason
VIP member from Saint Louis. Appreciate the thought, Greg, how much?

Speaker 3 (40:24):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (40:25):
I do not spend a ton of time on like
gauging on social media trying to get like the big
picture of view. I think that there's places where there's
a double standard for AW. I think there's a place
where there's fair minded people who are reacting deep situation individually,
I don't know that I can broadly generalize social media
in that way, But I also can't rule out that

(40:48):
I'm just not on enough in enough places to discount
what Jason is saying that there perhaps are some AW
fans who are gonna judge something differently that AW does
that if w WB did the exact same thing that
they would you know, immediately be speaking out against it.
What do you think on that? On that topic, Like,

(41:08):
if AW had introduced a concept like this, I'm trying
to think who in their you know who on their
roster would do it. But if they had done something
like this, do you think the same fans who are
ripping on it would be like, this is AW innovating
and being different and you know, taking that stale, predictable,
sterile WW environment and showing them what what real creative

(41:28):
minds do. Like, would there be I mean, there'd be
some of that, but would that be actually overwhelming and
very hypocritical?

Speaker 2 (41:34):
I think when you look at the fans who watch
AW and watch WWE both, Yeah, there is a lot
of people who may give AW the benefit of the
doubt where they wouldn't WWE. But WWE has a long
track record of not earning the benefit of the doubt,
and AW has a pretty good track record of what
they've done, you know, going back only a few months obviously,

(41:55):
but they've handled new concepts a lot better on the
whole than WWE. They haven't been perfect, and not every
television show that they put on have been perfect, but
when you look at aw's television shows is frequently better
in quality than Monday Night Raw and things like that.
So you know, that comes into play that these companies
have earned what they're getting. You know, WWE and Monday

(42:19):
Night Raw have earned the fans looking at this underground
concept with a skeptical eye, and AW has earned to
this point people looking at it more positively and more
accepting of sort of waiting to see what happens. That's
what happens when you earn the trust of fans, you know,
That's that's kind of the thing. Obviously, you're gonna have

(42:42):
AW diehards who who pollute social media with you know,
putting down WWE concepts that they haven't seen yet. But
you're gonna see the same thing from WWE diehards who
put down AW to the best of their abilities as well.
So it runs both ways for sure, But I think
I think you know, AW, at least in my mind,

(43:03):
and I kind of look at this as objectively as
I can has earned the benefit of the doubt with
their concepts, and we're seeing the Deadly Draw started last
night on YouTube. They've gotten some really good YouTube numbers
as of this afternoon on those matches.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
A lot of fans.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
One of the big criticisms of AW has been the
booking of the women's division and how it just hasn't
seemed to be a priority. And so this is AW
giving that priority to the women.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Now.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yes, this Deadly Draw Tournament is not on AW television,
but still it's an attempt to get these women in
the ring together, give them some time together, get them
the ability to get over with the fans who are
watching on YouTube. And again, based on the numbers, that
early returns look pretty good. So you know, they're not

(43:51):
sitting on their hands, they're not ignoring the problem. They
are being proactive about it with this Deadly Draw tournament,
and I think they should be complimented with them.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
What about the WW Battle Bull did not work that
either so far, or you're hopeful AEW won't repeat like,
where where is there room to say just because WSW
screwed up the concept, maybe AEW won't. And it's not
people showing bias or having a double standard as much
as it is as he said at the beginning of email,

(44:20):
w B has a track record of screwing things up.
WW certainly had a track record of screwing things up
more often than not. Unfortunately in their uh, you know,
in their years under Ted Turner and Turner and Time
Warner and all that ownership. I mean, there were some
good years, but a lot of bad ideas and poorly
executed concepts. What did WW do wrong?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Where?

Speaker 1 (44:38):
But as a concept, if it done right, it can
work for AEW.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I think WW too often focused on one storyline, and
that was the partners who can't get along. And when
you do a battleball type concept, you are limited in
the what storylines you can tell during that sort of tournament.
And one of the ones that's obvious is, you know,
the the randomness of the draw. You're going to have
some enemies who team together, and how they are able

(45:06):
to deal with that, And a lot of times in
WCW it was just okay, these guys can't get along,
or if there's a true randomness of it where you
have guys who have not interacted before, well there's no
story there, you know, So it's hard. You're sort of
making the story out of the match itself, and that
can be somewhat difficult. So if AW can find a
way to create different avenues to different stories and different

(45:30):
ways to create feuds through these through this tournament, I
think we'll look back at it as being successful. If
they try to, you know, replay the same storyline over
and over and every match, I think that's when it's
going to struggle.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
To hook viewers.

Speaker 6 (45:49):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (46:05):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
We looked another topic here. With the next email, Javier says,
do we know Soamojo Javier from Miami, do we know
Somemojo's status? Joe and Dominic versus Seth Murphy and Seth
at SummerSlam would protect Dominic Greg So we can use
this kind of to talk more broadly about another big

(46:44):
storyline that's been ongoing on Raw, which is the mysterio
Seth Few. There's a lot of angles on this. You've
got when does Ray get reintroduced when his I know
they have the medical term I'm memorized, but his his
dislodged eyeball heels. And you got Dominick who is at
risk of being bowed as the if there were live

(47:06):
audiences as you know, who do you think you are?
You know you're the son of a wrestler. Go prove
yourself an NXT for five years like everybody else before
you make it out on the national stage there. You
know there's a risk of that. That set I think
he's been increasingly likable or at least tolerable as someone
in a in a role where they usually obliviously turned

(47:26):
the crowd against them by leaping ahead in line and
not understanding you know that well you yes, your dad
were hard to become a star being that his son
does not mean fans are going to embrace you. But
I think Dominic's been, like the way he's carried himself
improved week by week, and uh, I'm not sure crowds
would be believe that's just a mystery. We'll find out
someday maybe. But then, but then you have Joe who

(47:50):
is spewing these cliches, these heel announcer cliches that he's
fed in the headset for, you know, increasingly so in
recent weeks, which is sad because Joe was so his
he'll commentary is so smart and such a breath of
fresh air, and now it's just been dumbed down to
possession is nine tenths of the law. It's like, really,
we know Joe smarter than to make the Corey Gray's case,

(48:12):
you know, for heels. But then suddenly he's standing up
for Dominic. And the Dominic against Seth match is just
you know, I know it you know can be pre
taped or who knows what, but.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
It don't.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
I don't think it's a super big draw for Summer
Slam because Dominic won't be protected and people would have
low expectations and I don't know, how Dominic wins without
Seth losing a lot more. But Joe and Dominic against
Murphy and Seth. That's intriguing because why would Joe stand
up for Dominic when he's a heel commentator. He was
more standing up for Tom Phillips, the broadcast partner, but
he does seem kind of anti Seth. And then you

(48:48):
got Murphy who's kind of been questioning it seems the
whole concept of of of Seth even accepting a match
with Dominic. He's sort of telling Seth, this is a
crazy idea, right because it's a fair fight. You'd kill
the poor kid. And he seems to be regretting what
he's doing even as he's encouraged to do it. So
there's a lot of moving parts in this. What's your
assessment of the big picture, and then what are your

(49:09):
thoughts on converting Dominic Seth from singles into a tag match,
either at Summer Slam or perhaps as a follow up
if there's anything left of Dominic after SummerSlam.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I do like the direction of Rollins versus Dominic. It
makes sense given what we've seen so far of the storyline.
I think it's been built up very well. And I
think with a couple more weeks of build it could
be it could be one that people really anticipate. So
I'm a little on the other side of it than
you are, Wade, but I agree that, you know, how

(49:39):
do you do a finish? You know, the fact that
they're continuing with this Dominic versus Rolin's feud makes me
think that even if ray mysterio isn't re signed pen
to paper right now, that WWE is confident enough that
that's going to happen where they're going to continue to
use Dominic and continue on with his storyline. So I

(50:01):
think a raymondsterial return at SummerSlam is not out of
the realm of possibility. I think Rollins can beat Dominic
pretty handily. Maybe ray comes and makes the save at
some point. Ray you know, Dominic's not going to be
a full time wrestler. I don't think you need to
protect him all that much, especially when you have the
cavern of experience between Seth Rollins and Dominic. You know,

(50:25):
Dominic gets some hope spots in there, but other than that,
it should really be Rollin's getting the victory pretty strongly,
maybe again reinvolving Raymond sterio. So I'm a lot more
positive on the potential of a singles match and the
storyline build and where they could go with that. Then
it sounds like you are now a tag team match.
I could see. We don't know really the status of

(50:48):
Samoa Joe at this point. You know, it's kind of
seemed like he's settling into a full time commentator role.
But you know, then you see the raw underground and
you're like, man, if Joe were maybe ten years younger
and healthier that, you know, he could really blow away
the competition in something like that, or at least shine.

(51:10):
I think if WWE really got cold feet about putting
Dominic in there with Rollinds, if they're going to do
it in front of some type of crowd, then maybe
that takes out the possibility of filming it cinematically, and
you want a veteran like Joe in there to sort
of lead things.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Then you could do a tag match.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
So again, I'm a little higher on the potential of
a singles match, but I get the concern. I don't
think a tag match doesn't thrill me as much as
the as the possibility of seeing Rollins and Dominic in there,
But I could see WWE wanting to veer in that
direction just as a precautionary measure.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
All right, Where where is the long term trajectory for
Seth ROMs We talked about, you know, where's this Raw
underground going with Seth? How do you what's your assessment
of this turn on his character? You know, the idea
that Seth is was felt turned on by the fans
a year ago and now he's you know, sort of
narcissistically obsessed with, you know, having people follow him and

(52:14):
taking it out on people. And it sort of snapped
and he was this passionate wrestling guy who has rejected
and so now he's you know, taking it out on
the world. But you can sort of, you know, write
a dissertation on the psychology and psychosis of Seth Rawlins
in the journey he's been on. But is this a
long term sustainable he'll act or has it already reached

(52:34):
a point of platitude and repetitiveness. That might be one
of the things that's sort of dragging down Raw as
a show. And I kind of go back and forth
most of the time. I'm a little higher on Seth
segments than most, but I also I understand why. You know,
the meditative, slow, calm, talking platitudes pew a character. It

(53:01):
just wears on people who are tuned into wrestling for
energy and adrenaline, and it's sort of like, oh God,
another Seth segment. You know, I'm going to go look
at my phone or let the dog out, or see
what's on another channel when he's on, I could get
that too. So your take on the long term trajectory
of the Seth character and how sustainable it is.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I think it's really been hit or miss, and the
character has kind of gone back and forth from being,
you know, someone who doesn't seem to have a conscience
to someone who you know is kind of shocked and
by the violence that they're able to come out with.

(53:43):
You know, when he pops ray his eye out and
he puked afterward. I mean that certainly seemed like some
regret with his characters. So it's kind of gone back
and forth between those two and you know, not having
Austin theory there, we don't know how that's changed things.
With Murphy being his only quote unquote disciple right now,
we don't know what happens to Alistair Black, who he

(54:06):
kind of recruited to be his disciple a couple of
weeks ago, wasn't seen at all this week on Monday
Night Raw, so that could add another dimension to Rollins.
I think that Rollin's at his best as a heel,
could circle back at some point and challenge Drew McIntyre
again for the championship. You know, I think there's that

(54:29):
sort of potential with this Rollins character, but I think
they do need to do a little more and move
a little more quickly with the character. I think it's
kind of felt like he's been treading water for a while.
As strange as that is, you know, we were stuck
in the middle of a long term Raymond STEREO's storyline
that is getting advanced from week to week generally, and

(54:51):
he just pulled a man's eye out. So it's hard
to say that's kind of being on a treadmill, but
it does have that feel, and part of it is
because he's It does feel like he's played this character
for so long. Whether it's just because he's on what
feels like so many segments sometimes on Raw, or whatever
the case may be. But I still like this character

(55:14):
turn for Rollins. I would like to see them continue
with it, but I think they need to speed up
the process in some ways.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs.

(55:49):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to pw torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling
and more. Check it out pw torch dot com your

(56:11):
first stop for TV and pay per view written reports.
All right, let's go to a completely different topic here.

(56:31):
Dan Castro of Kensington, Connecticut says with Daniel Bryan currently
on paternity leave and then with his contract set to
expire as he eluded himself recently. What do you think
the chances are of him coming back for a short
run or a prolonged run if he really gets into
it with NXT. Personally, I'd love to see a match
up with Finn Balor and Johnny Garcano. I know this
had been talked about during the time of his big

(56:52):
announcement last year, but what do you think of the
chances of it potentially taking place now? Could be a
good shot in the arm for the brand to So, Greg,
is that where you'd like to see Brian land if
he does wrestle later this year on twenty twenty one?
Would you are you more intrigued by a non WWE
slash NXT scenario? So that's one and then two. Would
he be a shot on the arm for NXT? Or

(57:14):
has he has he been marginalized or you do you
think there's a pent up us there's this build up
among fans just wanting to see him be featured and
used against a fresh against a fresh match of opponents
under a different booking team who would utilize him differently
and maybe get this this you know, great chapter in
Brian's career out of him that maybe Vincent Man isn't
inspired to do.

Speaker 3 (57:36):
Brian.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Maybe a guy who sees NXT and that sort of
talent there kind of excites him, and just the way
that brand is positioned versus Ron SmackDown. So it may
be something that he wants to do, But I really
think SmackDown needs him, like I think SmackDown needs that
star power of Daniel Bryan such as it is, you know,

(57:57):
especially missing Roman Reigns and some of the other key
talent brock Lesner not around in WWE right now, Becky
lynch Off TV, WWE's main roster is really hungry for
some star power. So I don't know that WWE would
acquiesce if Brian wanted to go to NXT. There's a
lot more at stake with SmackDown being on Fox and

(58:17):
Raw with its huge deal with the USA network. These
television contracts aren't going to last forever, and they need
to be looking already at the next TV deal in
twenty twenty four. And so the ratings for SmackDown have
not dived the same way that the ratings for Raw have,
but it should be kind of all hands on deck

(58:39):
if you can get them at this point for both shows,
and so I think Daniel Bryan is more advantageous to
SmackDown at this point and going forward than he would
be on NXT.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
How about Daniel Brian just wrestling New Japan aew ROH, Like,
do you want to see Daniel Bryan just unleashed so
to speak from WWE get away from the guy who
was on the breabe on the Bella's reality show and
you know, just let him be who he wants to

(59:11):
be and have a wider array of opponents. Or is
there something about NXT that just it feels like as
you just laid out, and I think a lot of
people have. There's so many great matchups for him there.
Let's just get some good matches in NXT. We can
worry about his World Tour in twenty twenty two or
twenty twenty three, because he's still young enough to pull
that off if his body holds up.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
There's just so much untapped potential with him on the
main roster and wrestling all the different wrestlers that are there. Obviously,
the ceiling is probably higher for him if he were
to go to New Japan and ROH where he doesn't
have the strings attached to him as far as what
he can do in the ring that he likely does
in WWE, I don't know if that's something he's still

(59:56):
interested in. You know, when a couple of years ago
he was interest in doing that, his life changed.

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Quite a bit.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Now that he and Bree just had their second child,
he's a year older or two years older, So I
don't know if that sort of thing would interest him
as much as it did then. But sure, you know, there's,
like I said, a higher stealing for him outside of WWE,
But there's still so much untapped potential of him and
the different variety of opponents that are presented in WWE

(01:00:25):
or even NXT, that I think I could really go
either way. The problem is that untapped potential is likely, unfortunately,
to stay untapped if he does stay in WWE.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
That's that's the risk. Yeah, that is a risk, and
that the idea of seeing Daniel Brian in AW have
to say, intrigues me personally more than NXT because you
just see Daniel Brian in a completely different environment without
any kind of influence or baggage or legacy inertia of
who he has been in WWE, would be I think

(01:00:58):
really interesting. Having Allowing. It's kind of like Cody, you know,
in aw just getting see Cody b who Cody wants
to be and as ambitious and creative as he is.
And sometimes we're better for worse, you know. And there's
things that he's done where I don't know quite if
it was, if it's best for the company or what
I put Mostly I just see this super creative guy

(01:01:19):
who knows what his strengths are, acknowledges his weaknesses, and
is able to book himself as a top star and
you know it's effective. I mean I was there for
in person for all In and it was in you know,
a pretty incredible experience, the bond that he had, in
the connection that he had with that crowd with Daniel Bryant.
I sort of want to see that that fan base
that has a I don't want to say a bias against

(01:01:42):
ww A. A better word would be resentment of the
corporate WWB brand and they see anyone in it as
part of it that they're compromised. I'd love to see
a crowd show up to cheer Daniel O'Brien in an
environment that doesn't involve that sort of built and resentment
that a big part of the fan base has towards WWE,

(01:02:03):
and then I'm curious what Daniel Brian would do again
like Cody has done, if he just got to do
whatever he wanted without him to clear it with anyone,
because if he went to AW, I mean, he'd have
to clear it with Tony Kahan and the EVPs, But
for the most part, I think they'd be like, yeah,
do whatever you want, Brian. You're great and you know
it's not gonna make or break us, So let's see
what you come up with. We're intrigued to watch too.
We're fancy yours. So that's where to me. I just

(01:02:25):
I feel bad if we didn't get a chance to
see that version of Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
And there is something to be said for someone being
able to stink or swim creatively and what they want
to do. And like you said, not everything Cody does
is a hit, but you know, he's going out there
and he's he's doing what he wants to do and
he feels creatively satisfied and fulfilled. And I don't know
that you could say that same about Daniel Brian or
anyone under the WW umbrella as a talent right now,

(01:02:53):
although there are reports that Daniel Brien is now part
of the SmackDown creative team. So maybe, you know, fingerprints
that we've seen, whether it's a push for Grand Metaalik
against aj Styles or some of the other things you've
seen on SmackDown lately, could be attributed to him. But
that may be an outlet that is able to satisfy

(01:03:13):
that part of him and keep him involved in professional
wrestling even while he's not coming to the performance center
and being a part of the active roster.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Yeah, and the person who existed five years or ten
years ago on the indie scene isn't always the same
person when they become a multi millionaire, have a wife
who's embedded in the ww ecosystem, and have friends who
are signed to long term contracts and don't want to
go anywhere else. I mean, there's a certain you know,
investment that Brian has that some fans might not be
happy about, given the way that he was treated during

(01:03:45):
the whole authority era and the potential that he had.
But you know, people change as age, and they cash
checks and they have families and their wives are part
of the ecosystem. So you know, imagining Brian going off
and doing his own thing outside of WI. But it
just it might not be a fire that burns inside
of him as much as Oh, I get to be
part of creative or I am just you know, super

(01:04:06):
comfortable not hurting myself physically or dealing with the headaches
that come from a whole new power structure that he'd
have to navigate. I mean, I think you know again, AW,
it's it has you know, it's unknown in terms of
a wrestler going there and having to suddenly deal with
the own bucks emailing him something, and then Tony Khan
saying something else, and then Cody you know, like all

(01:04:27):
of a sudden, you're in the middle of this cauldron
of politics you didn't even know existed once you get
in the middle of it, and he might just not
be in the mood for that at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:04:42):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
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(01:05:04):
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Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Okay, let's go another email here. Up next is George
and Orlando. I've seen a lot of conversation about the
title match this week not making sense on AW Dynamite,
especially after mgf's segment. My wife and I appear to
be in the minority that John Moxley made the match
with Darby before the Tornado tag as a middle finger
to MGF. He's purposefully giving the number five challenger a

(01:05:57):
shot because he can, and to prove mgf's point in
the narrative Sense and Dynamite going off the air was
telling Darby about it. The announcers were saying Darby has
no idea about the match, but that's not the body
language I saw anyway. I can't wait to see what
wild things each show comes up with. Now that Saturday,
August twenty second is double booked. Hooray for counterprogramming. Thanks

(01:06:19):
for all the great shows, George and Orlando. So a
couple topics there. First of all, let's dive into MJF Moxley,
Moxley Darby coming up tomorrow night on Dynamite, and so
that we've got that, and then I said, I wanted
to talk about the the change in the AW schedule
and we'll parlay into that next in terms of how

(01:06:40):
that might affect some viewership habits and ratings going even
into the fall once there's unopposed NXT shows and AW
shows on a couple of Wednesdays and Thursdays. Greg, first
things first, I want your take on the MGF promo
and the last week, which I was a fan of,
others were not. And then I made my case and
then George and Orlando's theory on the Derby Moxley match

(01:07:02):
and how it came about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
As a starting point for MJF feuding with John Moxley.
I thought that promo was really strong, and I think
it's a it's a memorable starting point, and it's one
we can look back on when aw's next pay per view,
which is almost a month away now, and we can
look back and say, yeah, that was the that was
a very memorable start to that feud, the the Darby

(01:07:27):
l and John Moxley stuff, and whether or not Moxley
pulled rank to give Allen a shot above MJF to
kind of stick it to him. I don't know, we
have the top five or top ten rankings or whatever
it is in AW, but it's it's still it's kind
of fluid as far as like, we don't really know

(01:07:47):
when the number one person is guaranteed a shot. We
don't know how often, we don't know the who makes
the matches, whether it's Moxley, you know, allowed to pick
his challenger, which seems odd, or or what the deal is.
So it's kind of this nebulous concept so far. That's
a nice idea in theory, but I don't know if
it's born out as well in practice. MJF getting a

(01:08:10):
title shot at the next pay per view makes sense
because you know, he is number one, he is undefeated,
he's based on the booking, earned that opportunity at the
next pay per view, So I know, wage you at
one time, I think wanted to kind of wait on
MJF before he got into that that first title feud.
But when you're the number one guy in the rankings,

(01:08:32):
when you are protected the way MGF has been protected
as far as his win loss record, I think you'd
have to come up with some roundabout ways to not
go with him as a title challenger at some point
in the near future.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
Yeah, having an undefeated record it makes me more comfortable
with MGF getting pushed in the spots storyline wise, having
him be less of the stereotopagical chicken shit heel slash
manager role that he had had glimpse the little instances
of that in his aw ron where I'm like, well,
that's not a world title guy. I need someone who's got,

(01:09:06):
you know, more of an edge. I use Adae Gilbert comparison.
Eddie Gilbert sometimes was the chicken shit heel manager wrestler
hybrid and other times he carried himself as the the
you know, top heel who was dangerous and the best
at what he did. And I want that other version
of MJF and people who haven't looked at much of
Eddie Gilbert in the past, I think, and I don't
know if mjf's inspired by him or not, but I
think there's that's probably the best comparison and model for MJF,

(01:09:29):
and I think MGFF can surpass him. To think MGFF
is a more talented promo and overall character. But Eddie
loved wrestling, Eats left breathed wrestling just like Eddie Gilbert did,
and so I think there's some comparisons there in terms
of their ambition. So so with MJF, I'm more comfortable
with it now and I think they just had to

(01:09:50):
tell a story to get there. My issue wasn't like
that people won't care about the match as much as
I think that there's a longer story Eric to tell
with MJF. And if they put him in that match now,
I don't see him winning the title, but he's already
then made it to the main event, and so part
of what you want to do with MGF is one
build him up as credible in the ring so people
think he might win. He might be someone who might

(01:10:12):
just be this dynasty heel who dominates aw after he
wins the title. And I just don't think that's that
foundation had been built with him. He was more of
the pesky, annoying I want to see him take a
wild bump and then cry about it later type heel.
But I think they've made progress in that regard. And
also MGFF headlining their big show against Boxley is not

(01:10:33):
displacing somebody else who's ready now that shouldn't be the
you know, justify a match happening before it's ripe and
where you know, sooner than they can get the most
out of it. But it does help that it's not like, hey,
wait a second, what about this and this and this
that they could have done instead. I think MGF Moxley
is the match that will help them sell the most
pay per views when that event takes place in a month.

(01:10:54):
So in that sense, from a financial standpoint, I think
it's a smart move, and at least in the last
few weeks, I think they've taken positive steps. Did did
MGF go to meta in this kind of you know,
putting out there, well, Moxley is running a place like Hogan,
like did that get two meta? Including talking about ratings.

(01:11:17):
I made my case that we're not supposed to buy
that MGF. What he's saying is true, that we're supposed
to think, we're supposed to call BS on him and
go Moxley's not a politician like Hogan, you're trying to it.
You're you're actually sort of you're you're claiming something is preposterous.
We know it's not true. That's a story you tell yourself,
but we're not buying it. We know that's not who

(01:11:37):
Moxley is. And what do ratings have to do with
winning a championship? Like I I think there's a chance
that MJF took a Russo esque a card that he
played a lot and actually updated it, added a layer
sophistication that it deserves to be given a fresh look.
I'm not saying in the end it's going to turn
out that it's as sophisticated as that tired, damaged, broken

(01:12:04):
trope has been of introducing ratings and backstage politics into
a promo. But I wouldn't be surprised either if MJF
thought all that stuff, is aware of all that stuff,
presented this promo in the context of I'm going to
do it right and show it how it can show
you how it can be done right. And I think
it's only fair to listen to Moxley's response to that
promo and how he frames his response until we fully judge.

(01:12:25):
Oh it's one of those you know, eye rolling meta.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
It's a shoot.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Brother, let's talk about ratings and backstage politics when that
doesn't factor into whether you winna lose a match. MGFS
an undefeated heel in singles matches who's a liar who's
trying to create this false narrative that fans are calling
bs on And Moxley has a chance to call bs
on too, So I'm hopeful that's where we're headed. So

(01:12:51):
how do you feel about that criticism and do you
share my thoughts on where it might be headed or
does it or does it even need that level that
layering for it to still work for you?

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
His troumos seemed to walk that line of sort of
work and shoot.

Speaker 3 (01:13:06):
I think even if you take his comments as comments that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Should not be whether it's shoot or whether it's whatever
not be brought into wrestling storyline, I think you can
explain them in a storyline sense. So in that case,
they kind of work on both sides. So I didn't
think he went too over the line on that. The
only thing about the ratings is and I'll ding him
on this because Chris Jericho is already talking about being
the demo God he already brings up the ratings in

(01:13:34):
his promos.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
I don't think you want two guys.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
On your show talking about ratings the way that they are.
I think that that's a little much, even if the
context is different. I don't think you want to keep
drawing attention to that. So that would be my one criticism,
And you're right. I think we got to hear Moxley's response.
I'm expecting it to be pretty good because Moxley, unchained

(01:14:00):
we've seen in a w has been really good on
the mic. So I'm cautiously optimistic that the deeper we
get into this feud, the less often MJF will need
to rely on those areas to attack Moxley.

Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
Dorby Ellen just the what's the uh? I don't want
to say escape patch for this match, But do they
defined Arbie Dowe? I don't know, it's not it's it's
it even defining him down if he loses clean to
Moxley and and is this or do you just expect
of course MJF and Ward are going to interfere, You're
not going to get a clean finish. What should people

(01:14:41):
brace themselves for if or or expect? In terms of
the payoff to the match.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Yeah, I wouldn't expect it to necessarily be clean, although
if you're running John Moxley defending the title at one
of your four pay per views, you would like to
see him get a clean victory over a challenger the
level of Darby Allen, who you know, he's not a
top guy, but he's up you know, near the upper
mid cart.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
I guess, so.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
In that sense, you do want to put Moxley over
as strongly as you can heading into a match where
he's being challenged by someone who's undefeated. And really, I
don't know that Allen loses a lot by losing cleanly.
I think that's part of his appeal, is that he's
a guy who can just take a beating and keep
coming back and keep coming back. So I'm kind of
talking myself into a clean finish.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
As much as it would surprise me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
Because MJF and Wardlow are kind of a lording over things,
they could do some sort of postmatch attack conceivably where
they wouldn't factor into necessarily the decision, but they would
still make their presence known after the match. So yeah,
I don't think a clean finish is out of the
realm of possibility, but you always wonder when there's a

(01:15:53):
world title match on television how they're going to roll
with it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(01:16:22):
that same email applies Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadkeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. Let's talk about the

(01:16:43):
other subject he brought up. What do they come up with?
On August twenty second, it's double booked. Hooray for counterprogramming.
Georgia and Orlando said, what's your take on whose advantage
this is? Is this a big blow to aw Dynamite
that three out of I think five weeks they're going
to be bumped from their Wednesday night timeslot. Is that
gonna really be disruptive to almost a year, you know,

(01:17:05):
ten months of momentum they've built up, and a lead,
a solid lead they have on AW across the demographics
speaking of and in terms of total viewership or does
this give AW actually a chance to earn and this
is the optimistic view, get some people who are watching
NXT to actually watch them on a Thursday or a
Saturday when they are preempted NXT. People are gonna watch

(01:17:26):
NXT anyway, and they might not have bothered to DVR
or have the ability to DVRW and with Dynamite on
a couple Thursdays and a Saturday. And again this is
because of NBA on T and T bumping them during
the playoffs. Does it actually lead to maybe some people going, oh,
I'm kind of hooked on AW now, and once they
go back head to head on Wednesday, they can actually
win some viewers over. Basically, both companies have a chance

(01:17:49):
to reach fans they haven't been reaching for the first
ten months of this battle. Who's more likely to come
out the winner in this.

Speaker 3 (01:18:00):
Man?

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
I don't know it's really going to be interesting because
as seriously as both companies have taken the head to
head battle, I think they need to just as seriously
take this non head to head battle because, like you said,
you know, this is an opportunity on Wednesdays for NXT
to have that night to themselves, to have people who
normally watch AW and don't watch NXT. It's Wednesday night,

(01:18:22):
it's wrestling night, they're used to tuning in. Maybe they
decide to check out NXT. It's opportunities for NXT to
win those fans over so that when they go back
head to head, those people are watching NXT now instead
of AW. Conversely, AW is going to have a chance
to have some curiosity seekers check them out on Thursdays
and Saturdays. Maybe it's the people who normally watch NXT

(01:18:45):
on Wednesdays don't check out AW because it's on a
different night. You might get those eyeballs checking those shows out,
so again, when they go back to head to head,
some of those NXT viewers might decide to go to AW.
So I think the unopposed shows are going to be
just as important, if not more important, than the shows
where they're on had to head as a chance to

(01:19:08):
win over viewers of the other show without worrying, without
having to worry about counterprogramming on that night. So it'll
be interesting to see what these what these shows come
out with.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Yeah, I'm at first I was like, whoa, this is
bad for a w I remember Vincent Man wanting, you know,
being upset at USA Network because they were. When Nitro premiered,
it was unopposed because USA was airing it was it
the dog show or the tennis? I think it was
a dog show? Was what PREEMP did the first raw?
Maybe it was tense. I don't know. One of those

(01:19:41):
two things would preempt Raw on a couple times a year,
and Nitro got this Monday night all to itself and
it was, you know, off to the races, winning the
first head to head battle. And then NXT you know,
ran a couple of weeks on a post before Dynamite started,
and I don't know that they I'm pretty sure they
would have started then at that exact date. If it
weren't for the long to aw Dynamite on Wednesdays, it
might not even be on USA Network yet if it

(01:20:03):
weren't for that. So running on a post is an advantage,
but Dynamite is also by the way running on a post,
you know, just on different nights of the week. So
I'm I mean, I think the battle between nixteen and
a W has been fun.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
I think it is.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
More fun by for me, maybe not for maybe not
for Tony Kahan, but maybe sees it as an opportunity too.
But it's fun for us. I think to look at
a little shake up in those viewership patterns and we'll see.
What you talked about is how things play out.

Speaker 9 (01:20:37):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwsorts dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling than In Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:20:58):
about where the wrestlers were at the time and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this so along with other shows as part
of your pw sworts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just
for members compatible with the Apple Podcasts app. Visit pwtorts
dot com, slash go vip for details and sign up form.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Let's not let's jump to Actually I'm gonna bypass email
because I don't want to forget to talk XFL with
you and the Rock. I promise we would and we
ought to. What is your what was your initial reaction
to the Rock being part of an investor group buying
and reviving and seeming genuinely excited about the XFL. And

(01:21:52):
then you have, you know, this talk from from from
people who were with the XFL going, no, we're we're
a single ownership league and it's a lot easier for
us to sort of run in a bubble and produce
games without all the you know, all the uh, the
ordeal that it's been for players, unions and baseball and

(01:22:13):
and you know, the balance of power between players and
the owners and the NBA is is uh? Is this feasible?
And do you expect the XFL to actually have a
better chance to succeed over the next few years because
of how things are playing out right now? It still
has to be approved by the bankruptcy court this Friday,
but if it goes through the identity of the Rock
standing out there and introducing the you know, the kickoff

(01:22:36):
and being part of the branding I would think means
more than what it initially meant for, you know, ww
in Vincent Manaumal they launched the CCFL originally way back.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:22:50):
Going back and a preface, Greg, a preface, Greg, tell
people about you know, like I joked about, but you
really followed the XFL closely and you are you are
a fan and so kind of in corporate that too
in your answer.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
I'll try to get my answer to about a half
hour or under. It's gonna be tough, but so yeah,
I I have been a fan of all iterations of
the league dating back to two thousand and one, and
cover it very closely. I write about it a lot
online as well, so you know, I'm I'm kind of
getting my hands dirty with this league and and really

(01:23:23):
follow it very closely. The first question about the surprize,
obviously very surprised about the Rock, even though you know,
to be fair, he was given odds by the bookmakers
to buy the league, so either someone knew something or
you know, they were just kind of throwing it out
there as a joke and it became a reality. But
you know, there were rumors that Fox Sports and ESPN

(01:23:45):
Slash Disney were some of the folks who had signed
the non disclosure to get a look at the XFL's financials.
I think you could make the argument that they would
have been potentially better buyers for the long term of
the league, just because it automatically grants the XFL a

(01:24:08):
television outlet and a high profile television outlet, which is
what this company is going to need to succeed financially
in the future. But I think second place would be
The Rock. You know, he's a guy who has the
name value, the recognition. His production company that he runs
with his ex wife has put out a lot of
successful stuff. He's very well liked by a lot of

(01:24:32):
people in business. So it's a real win because you've
got to make a lot of business deals to make
this league successful.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
He's got that with his production company.

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
He's got a lot of INDs to the kinds of
businesses that the XFL is going to want to do
business with. There are a lot of people who are
going to be eager to jump at the opportunity to
work with the Rock. So I think other than you know,
Fox Sports, ESPN, this was the best outcome fans of
the XFL I could hope for looking ahead at twenty

(01:25:02):
twenty one. Danny Garcia, which is the Rocks business partner
and ex wife, has done a couple interviews since it
came out yesterday with ESPN and the Athletic and she's
not committed to twenty twenty one season yet. It's just,
you know, we don't know what the pandemic is going
to look like then. But the league is you would think,

(01:25:24):
and one on one hand, they are better suited to
run in a bubble. They have only eight teams, so
it's not the number of teams or the number of
players slash personnel that you would need to keep in
a bubble as opposed to the NBA and NHL, which
are seeing a very successful operation inside a bubble so far.
So they've got that working for them. The XFL had

(01:25:45):
also put out a plan before they had shut down,
originally in April, about how to make the bubble work,
and that was part of the intellectual property that the
Rock and Danny Garcia and the other group that was
part of it, that was part of the purchase so
they have that to kind of look at. Obviously, CFO

(01:26:05):
Jeffrey Pollock is still working with them through this bankruptcy proceeding,
and he's likely to stay on, so he's able to
give them some guidance based on how the original XFL
was going to operate. The real downside is the way
XFL two point zero made their money is from the attendance,
which was really good in some places, not so good

(01:26:27):
in others. If you take out the attendance component, the
group is going to need to prepare to take a
wash or take a bath I suppose is the correct nomenclature,
take a bath on the first season. Financially, if they
plan to operate in twenty twenty one, you're gonna be
able to get sponsorships and things like that for sure,
But without that attendance money coming in, they're really going

(01:26:51):
to be limited and they're not going to be able
to get a.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
Big time TV deal.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
We're still unsure about whether or not ESPN and Fox's
contracts that they had with the league are going to
be part of the bankruptcy. I'm not sure how you
get to this point and not be sure that's the case,
but there's a lot about bankruptcy law that I don't know,
so I'm kind of, you know, kind of probing around
in the dark on a lot of this stuff. So,

(01:27:15):
you know, the bubble is still you know, there's potential
in it. There's a very short turnaround time that they're
going to be have to get things up and running.
You know, we're in August already pending approval on Friday.
That's not going to give a lot of time to
build the infrastructure of these teams and get the players
on board. Although being in a bubble and not having
to be in the team stadiums kind of gives them

(01:27:37):
a little bit of leeway as far as that goes
in the way Danny Garcia has talked she's open to
having a lot of front office personnel who were with
the XFL on the last go around be a part
of this league. It would certainly shorten the learning curve
of the people that they hire, and the athletics is
reporting that less than ten percent of the staff that

(01:27:59):
was fired in April have found permanent work. So, you know,
if they don't have a bad taste in their mouth
from their experience in the XFL this past year, they
may want to sign on again with the Rock. So,
as with the XFL, I'm cautiously optimistic whenever there's good news,
knowing that I could you know, walk into a landmine,

(01:28:20):
uh with with something as it always happens with this league.
So cautiously optimistic is the is the watchword. But again,
you know, the Rock has such a has such a
wide he casts such a wide shadow, and he touches
on so many entertainment and sports properties that you know,

(01:28:43):
with so many irons in the fire, I think that
branding is really going to help out the XFL in
terms of sponsorship, in terms of attracting good people to
the league, in terms of getting giving legitimacy to the league,
you know, to to people who were burned by by
Vince McMahon and the business community and things like that.
So cautious optimism is the step I have to take

(01:29:06):
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
Should we just change it to the Rock flor the
RFL has changed the logo and just branded around the Rock,
I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:15):
Yeah, I think he's definitely going to be a lot
more front and center than what Vince was this last time,
because you know, Vince was in and it surprised me
how much he was in the background, yeah, of the XFL,
and that was one thing I think he learned from
two thousand and one, and I don't think you're going

(01:29:35):
to see that from the rock. I think it's and
I think it's important that he gets out in front
and is kind of the spokesperson, is the face of
the XFL at least until that they can, you know,
establish the local identities of the teams, establish the players
and maybe the head coaches of the league that that
he's the guy who's front and center and his face

(01:29:56):
is out there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:59):
Thanks for don today's show. Take it to the next
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(01:30:20):
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I wonder if the fifty ish year old Vince McMann

(01:30:42):
in twenty twenty would have been just as bombasticking out there,
and if it's more Vince just sort of, you know,
not even self deprecating, just acknowledging he's not from an
energy and charisma standpoint in his seventies the same as
he was in his early fifties. And I think you're
right though, I mean, I think there would have been
people saying, lay low, let's let this be about the

(01:31:02):
football and the teams and the players and the logo
and the concept more than about U and WWE. And
they learned that lesson. But Vincent, I mean, he made
the initial announcement, you know, I mean in that you know,
studio setting with the XFL logo. But Vince just isn't
the same, you know, as he was then. The voice
is not what it was, The physical presence in aura

(01:31:23):
isn't there. So that might have been the deciding factor,
But deep down, Vince would still rather have been the
bombastic face and voice and brand and energy of the
league too. The Rock certainly is where Vince was age wise,
and or younger, actually a little bit younger, but he
is much more equipped to be the face and brand
and provide the aura for the league. So ultimately, still,

(01:31:45):
you know, people like football and in some ways you
just have to get out of the way and let
there be a good football league with enough intriguing rules
that it doesn't compromise the game so much but instead
feels like it's complementing or improving the game, and then
have cool logos and build up a tradition, and you know,
you'd think the Rock has won. Throw this money out there,

(01:32:08):
although it wasn't a huge amount of money for him,
if he didn't think there was a chance for this
to be kind of fun and successful.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
Yeah, and it sounds like.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Are going to be kept as far as gameplay and
things like that, which is a really good sign. Still
no decision on the franchises. A lot of the like
I said, a lot of them attendance wise, were successful,
some of them not so much. So I think that's
still something that they're going to have to think about.
And again, if they do twenty twenty one in a
bubble and I know Houston was the place that was
talked about because that's where they held training camp, that's

(01:32:38):
where they were going to hold the championship game. So
it's been XFL friendly to this point. You know, you
don't necessarily have to make an immediate decision on the
cities based on attendance if you're not going to have
that to worry about.

Speaker 3 (01:32:50):
But you know, the other thing is college football is supposed.

Speaker 2 (01:32:53):
To start in about a month and there are still
people who believe that the college football season could be delayed,
at least for the major conference is until the spring.
And then you say, okay, how does that affect the
XFL wanting to start in twenty twenty one, All of
a sudden, all these days of the week that the
XFL might be able to be on ESPN or Fox
or whatever other network may be taken up by college football.

(01:33:15):
So that's something that they've got to worry about too.
And again, there's very short turnaround to February from where
we are in August to get a lot of these
ducks in a row. So I think we're going to
be hearing a lot more a lot more quickly. One
of the complaints by a lot of the fans. The
last time the XFL was rebooted is you know, Vince

(01:33:35):
made the announcement in January of February of twenty eighteen
for a start in twenty so you had two years
and a lot of that time there were a lot
of fans sitting around kind of twiddling their thumbs, just
waiting and waiting for news to hit. And I don't
think we're going to have to do that this time around.

Speaker 1 (01:33:50):
No, I agree, And a lot of the peace are
in placement. Sounds like there's excitement over keeping or bringing
back a lot of the staff that was laid off
that did, you don't, put their heart and soul into
this and felt they had a good thing going. And
you know, I mean, you know, there was a restaurant
across the tree from my house where I mean I
met the owners and they're super excited. It was this
this uh you know, really cool uh themed bar, and

(01:34:12):
and then you know, two months into owning it, the
pandemic head or two three months after grand opening, and
it's just you know, heartbreaking, you know, for for them,
this dream and this investment, and it's not the same
thing for vinsic Man and an ownership standpoint, But I
think a lot of people who worked there just put
their heart and soul into it and they were like
they They're like, this might work, This might mean we
learned from the last time, and boom the pandemic hit.
And you know, I mean, I know that. You know,

(01:34:33):
there's headline stories about the huge swath of small businesses
in New York City that are going out of business
and will never come back because of this, and so
I know it's it's hardly like a small business feel
good story the way you know a local pub is.
But if rock In and the XFL can be revived
and bring those people's jobs back who worked in that

(01:34:55):
in that front office and really built something that had
some cool aspects to it that they were proud of,
and then bring those plays years back and give them
jobs on a professional sports level, you know. I mean,
it'd be nice to have something actually make it through
this and maybe even end up better off.

Speaker 3 (01:35:10):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 10 (01:35:16):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling
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Speaker 11 (01:35:24):
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We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
All right, one more email question here to wrap up
this is Zach and Texas. I was so flabbergasted by
the Raw Underground thing and so much to the other
incoherent booking decisions that I'm still trying to process the
Raw women's division. Aside from doing everyone a favor by
suspending Naya Jacks indefinitely, the women's division continued to be
a mess. The reunion of the Riot Squad felt anticlimactic

(01:36:57):
because instead of running vignettes and or doing a sit
down with a review while was Mia bad, Ruby and
Bianca bell Air beat the Iconics clean, thus taking away
the impact of Ruby finally vanquishing the insufferable Assis with
Live back by your side. Meanwhile, Shannon Baser throwing into
a match with Sasha that they clearly had no intention
to give a finish too. Oscar is getting a rematch,
but what are the odds they put her over Sasha?

Speaker 3 (01:37:18):
Really?

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
Given the last month, I'd say not very good. I'm
over Sasha and Bailey as an act at this point.
It's the same stick twice a week, put the tag
belts on the Riot Squad and then have shanea choker
out the night after Summer Slam and send her back
to SmackDown where they can start the breakup angle. Because
it's time.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
PS.

Speaker 1 (01:37:34):
If you're not VIP, go VIP now, because Todd Martin
going off on this love child. I've shot Dune Saturday
night and bral for all that is ronder ground on
the Fix will be worth every penny. Pw Torch dot
Com Slash Go VIP would love to have you as
a VIP member, and I think you would love it
if you haven't given it a try yet, Greg, Yeah,
the women's division on Raw. We talked about a variety

(01:37:55):
of aspects of Raw. The two things I want to
wrap up on the women's division, and then we'll with
a talk about this mystery faction that isn't a part
of this email, but I definitely want to fit in here.
There's the Shane. The Shane Basler push I think is intriguing.
I I am a proponent of the idea of her

(01:38:16):
being a bit just sort of a badass, truth talking babyface.
The way they script her and her promo ability is
is subpar right now and might be hurting that and
then you know, the I'm going to dismember you to
Osca just felt like out of character for what she
was doing when she was standing up the Sasha and
Bailey and sort of seeing I think fans were watching,
probably think, if viewers are probably watching, going, here's someone

(01:38:37):
who can shut those two up for good. I'm with her,
And then on the same show they have her, you know,
make this violent, over the top, needlessly violent threat against
Osca instead of you know, I'm rooting for you because
I had I think you're the e lead talent of
this generation and I want to test my skills against you,
and I would feel like I was a great champion
if I beat you like that can be enough on

(01:38:58):
a pro wrestling show. But no, I will mame and
just re member you, like like Dolf. Like when Drew
was talking about Dolf, It's like, no, just beat him.

Speaker 2 (01:39:04):
Well, I remember Basler did take a bite out of
Becky Lynch, so she does have a history.

Speaker 1 (01:39:08):
Well, yes, but are we talking about that still? Did
that really happen? It's sort of like the the three
free passes. Every wrestler gets to go to a different
brand or something that has been that has been sort
of forgotten. Vince doesn't know what to gat from the record, Yeah,
stricken stricken for the record that did not happen. Jury, disregard,
disregard that that testimony. So I don't know what to say.

(01:39:29):
I I the idea of Shanna being the the the
truth teller, badass who shuts up Sasha and Bailey who
are obnoxious and respects Oscin wants to have a battle
of styles with her. I like that a lot better
than the scattershot approach that that we got last night
with Shade. So what are your thoughts on Shana Nia
Jack's the Riot Squad take it away?

Speaker 2 (01:39:51):
Yeah, there does seem to still be a lot of
jockeying for position on Raw with Charlotte Flair out and
Becky Lynch out. That does leave a big void at
the top of the Raw women's division. It seems like WWE,
from week to week doesn't exactly know who they want
to be at the top of that and it starts
with Sasha, Banks and Bailey going from you know, show

(01:40:11):
to show. Uh, They've they've clearly struck something with with
Bailey and Banks that a lot of people like, I'm
a fan of their work and their stick, so you know,
I certainly don't mind them being on two shows OSCA
and Shannon Baseler. I liked that they brought Shanna Basler back,
but it almost seemed like they it took you know,

(01:40:33):
the top two wrestlers in the brand being off TV
for the time being to bring her back, which I
don't get.

Speaker 3 (01:40:40):
Nia Jackson.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Basler had an intense brawl last week on ROD that
seemed to be leading to a match between the two
that apparently he's not gonna go anywhere for the time
being because Nia Jackson was suspended definitely, So that was
kind of a bizarre turn to me. You know, Basler
versus OSCAR will be will be really good. I like,
if you're gonna involve Basler, involving her at the top

(01:41:02):
level is a good sign. Ruby Ryot lived Morgan. I
think maybe WWE's acknowledging they need more tag teams to
challenge Baileyan Banks. Maybe they want to use Baileyan Banks
even more so. They want to get the tag titles
back into circulation and back being defended, and putting Ryot
Morgan together is probably the best move. You know, Morgan

(01:41:26):
was doing these videos and these promos for a while
where it seemed like she was testing out a little
bit of a new character. But now she's going back
into the Riot squad, which you know, I've mixed feelings
about that. I think that this may be the best
utilization of them right now, even though I was kind
of intrigued to see where they were going to go
with Morgan, you know. So there's just a lot of

(01:41:49):
it feels like they're still moving pieces around and they
haven't really set what they want the Raw women's structure
to look like going forward, so it's really hard to discern,
you know, a couple of weeks out what they what
they plan on doing.

Speaker 1 (01:42:07):
Okay, let's let's close here with the the mystery faction
on Raw. They put out teasers on it, people were
anticipating something happening. Tom Phillips said, it's a weird episode
of Raw lights flickering, microphones not really working, things being
tipped over, stuff being blown up outside, and then there

(01:42:27):
was no payoff.

Speaker 3 (01:42:28):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
We talk about the story arc with Ronder Ground and
getting a two week at least a two week a
story arc because they taped him at the same time.
Same thing here with a faction is is this gonna
be a I think people are sort of expecting at
the end of Raw some sort of nexus wild, just
an invasion with who knows who, and we didn't get that.
Do you like this approach better? You know, like actually

(01:42:48):
trying to get two weeks out of the buzz and
and having presumably some sort of reveal or payoff next week,
And where do you think it's going?

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
Well, it depends on how the fans and how many
of them tuned in to see Raw, because WWE dot
Com advertised this new faction and didn't really pay it
off this week, so I'm not sure, you know, if
that the taping thing has got moved around and they
decided Raw Underground was was big enough and they wanted
to focus on that, and they ended up moving.

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
The faction debut to the next week.

Speaker 2 (01:43:18):
It was kind of odd to have WWE dot Com
plug a new faction, which presumably was this group that was,
you know, messing with the electrical grid, and then have
everyone on ROS seeming surprised by this, since you know,
WWE dot Com had advertised this ahead of time, So
it was just kind of weird as far as the

(01:43:38):
timing of it went. But yeah, I don't know really
what to expect. I think there were five or six
guys involved, and I don't know if that's going to
be the full faction. WWE dot com seemed to show
an image with three people, so that was a little confusing.
I'm not really sure. Yeah, I mean, that's the other

(01:43:59):
thing is they were dressed. The security camera footage had
them dressed almost the same as a Curates as I
was Ninja's, and so that was a little confusing, I think,
probably to some people. So it's just was a little disappointing,
I think to people if they were tuning in specifically
to see this nexus like takeover that you talked about

(01:44:21):
and to have it be just what it was.

Speaker 3 (01:44:23):
I don't know if there was enough.

Speaker 2 (01:44:25):
There to get people to say, well, you know, they
didn't pay it off with the actual identities of the group.
But I was intrigued enough by what happened to want
to tune in next week. I don't know if there
was enough of that presented by WWE last night.

Speaker 1 (01:44:38):
Yeah, all right, very good, Greg, Thank you so much
always last having me on the mail bag. Some good
stuff that we were able to talk about due to
news yesterday and then the happenings on Raw. We got
some good emails tell people about resting Night in America
and what they should why they should download Sunday show,
and what you got coming up this Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:44:58):
Yeah, So the exciting thing about Wrestling Night in America
is not hearing my thoughts. The exciting thing for me
is to hear thoughts of the people within the Torch community.
So the people who you go to the website PW
torch dot com and you read their thoughts about things,
and to have them on the show in audio form
and to really get them to talk about not only
what they cover at the Torch, but also some of

(01:45:20):
the other stuff that they don't necessarily write about that
they watch and give them an outlet for that. I'm
always interested to hear these different voices. And this Sunday
we'll have John Mazariah on, who writes the hits and
missus pieces for w for Pterpretorch dot com. He'll be
on to talk about some of the stuff that's going on,
you know, the big episode of Monday Night Raw. We'll

(01:45:40):
start looking ahead to SummerSlam as that card is starting
to come into focus. And the same with All Out.
In September, we'll start focusing on those shows. So that's
what you can look forward to on Wrestling Night in America.
We also have phone calls, we have emails. Anytime you
want to email us w NIA Live Cast at gmail
dot com, I promise to you during the week, I
will get to every email during the Wrestling Night in America,

(01:46:03):
and sometimes that means we stay longer, but that's okay.
We love to hear from listeners, not only in audio
form with the phone calls, but also in email, so
I always look forward to discussing those They tend to,
you know, bring out an angle that maybe I didn't
think of when talking about a storyline or something happening.
So every Sunday night, eight pm Eastern pw Torchdailycast dot

(01:46:24):
com Wrestling Night in America with me and a rotating
mix of co hosts from the Torch family.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30):
And then, of course your columns in the progressing Torch
Weekly Newsletter tell people about what's coming up in this
week's newsletter.

Speaker 2 (01:46:39):
So the last week was my suggestion for ww to
shake up their TV with a six man tournament since
it seemed like there were so many six man groups
or three man groups that would make for six man
matches out there.

Speaker 3 (01:46:56):
So I kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:46:57):
Thought that out before wwe decided to one up me
and You're underground.

Speaker 1 (01:47:02):
But this week I was an.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
Okay, okay, Well, there was some randomness to some of
the teams that I came up with, but I mean, really,
there's so many iterations of it, but I just kind
of threw out some of my suggestions. But in this
week's Torch Newsletter, I reviewed the Ken Shantrock book by
Jonathan Snowden. That's getting a lot of positive reviews. So
if you're on the fence about buying that book, check

(01:47:29):
out my review this week in the Torch Newsletter.

Speaker 1 (01:47:31):
Excellent. Thank you Greg on Twitter. People follow you at
Greg M Parks and you can follow me on Twitter
at the Wade Keller and then follow our brand at
Pete W. Torch. The newsletter columns Greg speaks about the
long form columns are VIP exclusives, so you got to
go VIP to read those, either in the paper copy

(01:47:52):
newsletter or the PDF and all text versions that come
with a online VIP membership, And you can just lose
yourself for a week and just going through Greg Park's
archives of his columns and his long form takes on
some of prosing's biggest topics and sometimes not so big
topics where you do a deep dive into something kind
of off off the radar, which is always fun.

Speaker 2 (01:48:12):
And I will I will plug about a year ago,
I think May twenty nineteen. I even went back and
looked at it yesterday with the Raw Underground stuff coming out,
I did write a column suggesting the potential for a
new brawl for all and writing about some of the
wrestlers who could conceivably participate in that.

Speaker 3 (01:48:29):
So if you're send your hand.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
Yeah, if you're a fan of the Raw Underground, go
back and read my column from May twenty nineteen to
see some of the ideas that I came up with
in some of the wrestlers who I thought might be
contenders to participate, and see if maybe in the coming
weeks they end up showing up on Raw Underground.

Speaker 1 (01:48:50):
Awesome, Thanks Greg, glad you took credit for Underground. Well
we'll put that, put that on the record.

Speaker 3 (01:48:55):
Oh gee, thanks lady, Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:48:58):
All right, we'll hear from you on Sunday. Thanks ready
for downloading or listening and we'll talk to you next time.

(01:49:20):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at PW torch and follow me at the
Wade Keller That's at PW torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 4 (01:49:43):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, Downcast, and all

(01:50:04):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
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Speaker 1 (01:50:14):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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(01:50:59):
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We love variety and you can expect lots of it
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(01:51:21):
and a list of all the VIP benefits is available
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our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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Speaker 6 (01:52:18):
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Speaker 7 (01:52:33):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT talks
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A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
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(01:53:10):
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(01:53:33):
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