5 YRS AGO MAILBAG: Keller & Heydorn discuss where Raw Underground is heading, should AEW cancel Jericho-Cassidy, Aleister, Scorpio Sky

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:51):
the Wade Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This week,
on a mailbank episod of the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast,
I was joined by Zach Cadorn from PW Torch and
we talked about Raw Underground and ideas where it's headed
and the best and worst case scenarios for how it
might play out. Also Mailbig topics on the Rocks, purchase

(02:13):
of the XFL, Shannon Basler's push, dating brand's future, and
whether he's better off an nxt WWEAW or otherwise in
coming years, John Moxley against Darby Allen, and the MGF
promo from the week before to set up his all
out match against Moxley, the new Raw Faction teasing, and more.
This originally dropped on August eleventh, twenty twenty and it
is today's Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast Mailbag five years

(02:36):
ago flashback for Wednesday, August thirteenth, twenty twenty five. All right,
let's jump right into the mail bag with a question
from Zach from Texas. This is going to be primarily
about a w and all out, but I had to
get a quick question and about raw or ground too.
How are people really supposed to take this seriously? You've
tried to be diplomatic, Wade, but it really is a mess.

(02:59):
There's a ref in the ring, yet Shane is the
one calling matches off. There are no parameters for winning
and losing. Most importantly, the entire concept is convoluted. It's
a work being presented as a shoot juxtaposed with the
work being presented as shoot exactly. The former is supposed
to be more of a shoot than the ladder, which
implicitly makes the ladder faker. So we'll start with that, Zach, So,

(03:21):
what's your take on on on Raw Underground? What was
it after week one? What is it after week two?
Has it improved? Has it changed? I'm going to give
you the poll results first while you ponder that question, okay,
because we ran a Twitter poll asking if people felt
better about it after a week. Did they because they
changed a couple things or weren't the dancing women? I

(03:42):
think they turned down the subwiffer a little bit. There
was less bumping and the fights seemed to go a
little bit longer. It sort of felt like a pickup
game of basketball, maybe a little bit more, where last
week it felt almost just completely random. So in the poll,
thirty three percent said it's better than a week ago,

(04:03):
twenty nine percent said it's worse than a week ago,
and thirty eight percent said no change, and that they
might have liked it a week ago, they might have
not liked it, but they just thought it was no different. So, yeah,
where were you last week? This week? It has it changed?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (04:15):
So if this is a crazy topic to talk about,
because I so last week when it started off, I
you know, I took a similar approach to you, which
was there's no real way to fully analyze this thing
unless you give it some time and kind of see
where they're going. With that being said, so that's kind
of the overarching approach that I took, which kind of

(04:36):
like a wait and see approach minus the camera cuts.
I think that is really obnoxious. And not only is
it obnoxious, it takes away from the environment that they're
trying to build, like this underground environment. I think you'd
be so much better and encounter to the money that
I robbed production if they just had the one camera

(04:56):
on that quote unquote ring and you're just shooting.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
So it looks different, but it looks very similar.

Speaker 3 (05:02):
But that that aside, I you have to have a
wait and see approach because we don't know where where
they're going with it. And at the same time, I
can sympathize with every single critique that I've heard, and
I think Zach brings up some good points, like it
doesn't it doesn't really fit right now into the WWE ecosystem.
It doesn't fit to have guys moving in and out,

(05:24):
you know, from the wrestling ring to here and having
their skills somehow work better in raw underground than they
ever did, you know, up on the up on the
on the real show, and so even though I can
sympathize with that, I'm still open minded because I don't
think we know the full kind of scope of of
where they're going. Part of that is just time, and

(05:45):
part of that is my biggest critique, which is WWE's
fault in that they didn't put any context around Raw Underground,
And I think that's the missing ingredient to me right now.
It's like, Okay, you have this segment here, but why
is it there, what's the purpose of it?

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Where are the where are these stars coming from? Is
there an end game? How did it? How did it
shake out?

Speaker 3 (06:08):
I mean, there's no context right now, and I think
you know something defining for it, whether it's Shane McMahon
talking about it. How is this going to play into
the regular Raw show or is there going to be
a championship.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
What are these guys fighting for? Is it money?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
Like I just think a lot of that has to
be defined, and I think if you define its place
on the show, that takes care of of some of
the issues that that it that a lot of people
have with with the segment. So with that said, though
I liked the second week better, I thought they made
some improvements. I thought the fights lasting longer was important.

(06:45):
I liked the fact that you didn't have women just dancing,
but you had them fighting. I thought that was, you know,
an important piece of the puzzle to to kind of
take away out.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Of week one.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
It's just it looked, it looked, you know, not twenty twenty,
you know, and it doesn't. It doesn't even complement, you know,
WWE's Women's revolution message either to have to have that
going on. So I liked it they made that switch,
but I still think that the I said, the missing
ingredient is why is this happening, what's the purpose and
how is it going to fold in? And I don't
think you have to keep that a mystery. I think

(07:17):
you want to, you know, get out in the open
and tell your audience, Hey, look, this is how the
show came to be, this is how the segment came
to be, this is you already know what's going to happen,
and this is why you should watch because this.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
Is why it matters. And I think right now.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
That piece is missing and they can really come in
with that at any point now moving forward.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
I talked about that yesterday in the Raw Post Show.
I hope everybody listening has subscribed to the Waydekellor Prossing
Post Show, or it's a red logo show. Just search
wayde Keller on your podcast s app it'll pop up,
or look for the links at PW torch dot com.
And I made this point last night as we talked
about Raw Underground with Cameron Hawkins from the PW Torchieast
Coast Cast. I think next week is the week for

(07:57):
say Charlie Caruso to have a sit down at interview
with McMahon where he explains all this, like I all
can be forgiven. If it turns out over the course
of four weeks, this lands in a pretty good spot.
Not everyone's gonna like it. I get that. Not everyone's
gonna believe you should do a different style of work
fighting on a show with another style of work fighting.
I remember how jarring it was at first. I've sort

(08:20):
of grown used to it over time to watch. And
this is back in the nineties when UFC was a
new thing. I'd watch UFC on a Saturday night and
then I would like, Oh, I'm I need to watch
last night' SmackDown. If I didn't watch it yet, and
I'd watch him back to back. It was like, this
is really hard, you know, because you get in a
certain zone and you can flip it around too, Like
I can watch SmackDown and then I watch Raw and

(08:40):
then I watch UFC, and it's jarring when they're back
to back, or at least it was, you know, at first,
and when USC is kind of a newer thing. It
is harder to watch a wrestling match if you've just
been reminded of what a real fight looks like and
how different it is from a wrestling match. And there's

(09:02):
obviously Vincent Man has become a billionaire off of at
times off of promoting worked fights, and many wrestlers and
promoters have made money and had careers and and entertained,
you know, billions and billions of people for I was
gonna say centuries, but now now I'm overdoing it. But
on a professional ticket selling level that is probably actually

(09:24):
really I guess you go back. I mean people have
been I don't know, people have been worked fighting for
money for centuries. I'll put it that way. But my
point is is WWE's putting something into the program that
where fights look remarkably different and you can't explain why

(09:45):
with it in a way that or at least they
haven't tried to explain why. So when you bounce from
underground where somebody when someone is down, what do they do?
They don't pren imposture and yell at the announcers and
strut around and then lean over and touch their hair,
and the person magically starts lifting their body up just

(10:06):
because they, you know, are kind of halfway grabbing them.
Like you know, when you throw someone into the rain,
the person generally it is not dead weight. They kind
of help you when you all of a sudden have
a fighting style where there isn't where fights end just
because someone's down and someone ceases on it and punches
away until they stop the fight. And then they go
to the ring for Kevin Owns and Randy Orton and
you're like, why isn't Kevin Owens doing the same thing?

(10:26):
That ar too? Oh ruha I just did you know?
Like you're it's jarring, And so you can try to
explain that, you can hope people just compartmentalize it and
enjoy both and it doesn't matter that maybe that stuff
comes up, maybe after a while it goes away, But
it's asking for trouble. And so the question is can
you create and explain structurally why the fights look so different?

(10:51):
And if you do explain, does it take you know,
does that create a whole new problem because now you're
just asking people to think about progressing magicing work. You
can go down this weird, this weird past. So but
winding back to my original point, I still am endorsing
Charlie Cruz is sitting it out with shanec Man next
week and asking Shane, what's the deal, why did this

(11:12):
come about? Give us the back, give us the origination
story of this, and and I hope they have one.
If they don't, I think they can still come up
with one, and I would endorse that. I don't think
you can just throw something on and go it's cool.
So who cares. I wasn't a fan of that aspect
of Paul Hayman's booking in an ECW, where there'd just
be music and wrestlers fighting and no rules and it's like, wait,

(11:34):
wait a second, what's going on? And he, like Dickaus
just you know, an adrenaline rush of you know, chaos
and energy and testosterone, and I get it was crowd pleasing,
but I like structure more and I like origination stories
and explanations. Just do that next week, have Shane go yeah,
e Vince. My dad gave me, gave me a chance
to do something, and I didn't really tell him a
lot about it. And we've done it a couple of

(11:55):
weeks and now we kind of figure out, you know,
this is fans are liking this, I'm liking it, I'm
in it, and now we're kind of figuring out what
we're gonna do with it. You know, at first it
was this, and then we've watched it play out, and
now it's going to become this, and we have a
you know whatever is open invitation for wrestlers or we're
gonna have a tournament or whatever, but kind of like
give us some some tangible reason it continues to exist

(12:18):
and what the end goal is for it or what
the ongoing goal is for it.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
And I think, you know, not only will that help,
you know, in just the flow of the show so
it's not as choppy, but it'll also just I think
it'll help maintain interest in in Raw Underground because look,
at some point, you know, without any context.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
At all of why this exists or what the endgame is.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
And it might be two weeks from now, and I
guess I suppose it could be eight months from now.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
But when the novelty of just the segment in general
and the interest in seeing something kind of new wears off,
if that context isn't there, then there's really nothing left.
There's you know, because there's no star power on the show,
really not yet anyway. And if you don't have the
context there, as soon as people go, oh, well, gosh,
I've seen the same you know, the seven second fight,

(13:12):
you know, for the last six weeks, I'm just I'm
just not interested in this anymore. Then then if you
don't have context to lean on, that interest goes goes away,
and the whole idea doesn't isn't effective any longer. And
I just think, I don't know, I look at the
whole thing and it's like, on one hand, I kind
of see them kind of playing their hand and going, Okay,

(13:34):
if we if we keep going with this segment, we
can keep putting you know, our raw stars there.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
And that'll attract some attention.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
Like it was fun to see Shana Basler out there,
you know, Kevin Owens one day. Okay, maybe I don't know,
but like I hope that they're not kind of leveraging
that's like interest in seeing current stars like in that environment. Like, like,
I hope they're not going down a road of like, well,
we're gonna build up this segment so that we can
drive a rating when we drop Drew McIntyre down there

(14:03):
to claim more some guys or hear what have you.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
You know.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
I really I think the better bet at this point
is to create some context almost separate the rosters entirely,
so you have fans interested in the people that they
see in raw underground and then the people that are.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Just on raw.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
I think that's the safer approach if you're gonna, you know,
if you stipulate to the fact that they're merging kind
of two fight worlds.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
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with a VIP or Patreon membership. You know, the people
have compared this to Looch Underground. Certainly there's comparisons to that.

(15:08):
Obviously it might be inspired by that, it might not.
It's got fight club elements, it's got usc it's got
shotgun Saturday Night from the nineties. What w W want
to do with kind of a smaller, more intimate nightclub
setting with an edge of your program. There's there's a
lot of things that this is a mosaic of a
lot of ideas, but it ultimately should be used. And
this is what I wrote at PW torch dot com
last week and my Keller's take editorial, and I ran

(15:30):
an expanded version in the Progressing Torch newsletter with some
candidates who I thought would benefit from this. The Ultimately,
to me, the best use of this is it has
a finite run. Maybe it's seasonal kind of like the
mcribs sandwich. It's not always on the menu, but you know,
bring it or you know what is Wendy's Spicy Nuggets.

(15:52):
You know, they make a big deal on Twitter when
they bring the spicy nuggets back, so you know, this
can be w Spicy Nuggets. You know, once twice a
year you get a tournament that runs, you know, six
weeks or we pull We do this when we think
ratings are down and Shane is is antsy and board
with whatever else he does with his life, whatever it is,
you know, and because I don't think it's something you
can have every week all the time, So do it

(16:14):
on occasion. If it works, if they figure out what
it's going to be in it and it catches on,
don't burn people out until until you can't do it anymore.
Just kind of bring it, bring it around down then
and it can be used to introduce new stars and
exactly and if you can create a star in that
environment where people are intrigued, then to see him in
an environment with Drew McIntyre and you need somebody who

(16:36):
can work a worked match but translate that style to it,
you know, uh, you know, Steve Blackman tried Goldberg sort
of had the MMA gloves and was kind of carried
himself like that. You know, people were curious about Tank
Abbin and Ken Shamrock at one point, uh in terms
of crossover Dan Severn. They played that up, so if
you can kind of get somebody over in that context,

(17:00):
you know, Tom Stout from p U t Tux NXT
the PWU Torch Daily Cast said, you know, this is
a perfect for or to Hua, just to have him
be the guy who they put over in this context.
And my I pitched Dominic di Jakovic, and I kind
of still like him as the guy I think would
would uh benefit the most from this uh and I

(17:22):
should say benefit the most, but be the best fit
to then transition to a WWE style. But there but
there's there's plenty of options. And obviously they put TV
time into Davacado last night too. U so Zach, you're
your thoughts on the idea of it being seasonal. You
sort of create the structure that you and I both crave.
You use it to create a star and shake up

(17:43):
the format, and then it goes away for a while
and you build up that anticipation again and then you
bring it back. And my second point I'll throw to you,
or maybe it's a seventh point I don't know, is
maybe this is a spinoff on a w B network
two and that's that's Another option is introduce it on
Raw and then it becomes kind of like the maym Classic,
maybe two three times a year there's a six week run.

(18:05):
People who like it can watch it. People who don't
don't have to suffer through it or hate watch it
or change a channel on Mondays and you can do,
you know, three four times a year U seas or
once a year whatever, you know, a seasonal raw underground
style series on ww ME network. So I throw that
out there as a plan B for me that can
also integrate in terms of creating a new star that

(18:26):
can transition into Raw.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
No, I think both those ideas are good, you know,
And I think the havn't it be seasonal alleviates a
lot of the you know, the issues that we that
we talked about already in that it's you know it
really it would feel truly independent from Monday at Raw,
even if it's taking place during the three hours of Raw.
If it only comes back once or twice, a year

(18:48):
like again, that builds anticipation people. If it's done the
right way, you know, people will be looking forward to
that perhaps, and then at that point it should it
should drive the numbers that that WWB is looking to
to drive with a segment like this, And so absolutely
I think that would be that would be good and
I but I kind of double down on my other

(19:09):
point though, is I'm not sure either of those two
avenues are effective unless there's some context put around its existence.
And again that's either a sit down interview with Shane,
like you mentioned, some sort of stakes, whether it's a
you know, cash prize or I don't know, I don't know,
I don't I hate to say title shot, but some
sort of stakes where like there's a reason for people

(19:31):
to care about the the the acts that are stepping
in and and and fighting, just like just like in UFC,
like those fights matter and these have to too. And
right now, I think, you know, it's more of like
we're watching because it's intriguing, not because there's a special
reason to watch these guys fight each other.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
So I think that's my kind of underlying thing.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think if you set that foundation, you can build
in a lot of different directions and and and make
this something that you can that you can lean on.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
I don't think, you know, just like anything else, I'm not.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Sure this is gonna ever be something where every single
fan is like this is this is good?

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Or you know, I just I don't. It's pretty polarizing.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
And but that's not to say it can't be effective
for WWE, like they obviously want it to be. I
just think they gotta just tinker with it a little
bit more. And it is only the second week. I
think we got to see how it plays out. But
I think the other thing is, I mean, you really
could drive yourself trick crazy going down the rabbit hole
of like all the issues that are brought to the

(20:32):
forefront because of it. It just really is a concept
that you kind of have to just stick a pin
in on the side and kind of analyze it separately,
because otherwise you can go down a dark place pretty fast.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
And that's where the Charlie Cruiser interview would force Shane
McMahon or or the creative team behind him to say,
you know, this is what we'd really like, This is
what we'd really ask you if this were real and
we watched the first two weeks, you know, just basically,
you know, I don't know how you could do it,
but you know, get somebody who's watched who doesn't know
to submit questions. You know, let I don't know, set

(21:06):
Chris Wallace down for a couple hours to watch this
and have him do the Shane mcmannon interview and press
him on on you know what, why do you have
power to stop the match when there's a referee and
how do these people qualify? And you know whatever. But
on a you know, a slightly more serious note, there's
a way to create an interview that would force Shane
mcmannon and the people around him to hone in on

(21:27):
what is this? What's the structure? What are the ramifications?
So there's you know, more meaning to what we watch.
And if they don't know the answers to that, I
think it will doom it to fail as just a
visual spectacle. I don't think they would have done what
they've done so far if they didn't have some endgame
in mind. And we'll have to wait and see.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
Yeah, I agree, and I will say too on the
kind of the the positive side here, I think it
does a pretty nice job so far. Even last week
of breaking up, you know, the monotony of Monday night raw,
especially in like the empty arena environment here. You know,

(22:09):
I think like you can really kind of get rock
and drag sometimes even a good show, because it's like
you're seeing the same setting, the same crowd, the same
types of crowded reactions, the banging on the on the glass,
like it all just very it sounds and looks the same,
and really, through no fault of ww they've got their
hands tied in a lot of cases here because of

(22:30):
the situation and the circumstances. But this is like it's
been kind of like a positive refresh where it's kind
of like you can kind of shake your head and go, oh, okay,
this is something a little bit different, a little bit new.
It's got a little bit different music that the feel
and vibe is different, and so I've liked that part
about it. It really helps break up the show once

(22:50):
it kicks into that third hour.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
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Speaker 1 (24:05):
Right, Zechloclausen introduce ourselves here. This is the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast, our Tuesday mail Bank edition for August eleventh, two,
tenty twenty. As always, you can email the show Wade
Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com anytime during the week,
and we mark mark down the emails in the inbox
and we'll get to them in some form or fashion.

(24:26):
And we don't get to all of them, but I
mean we'll certainly read them and try to work them
into the show. But Tuesday is usually when we do
the most emails. We usually have a mailbag format on
Tuesdays these days. But anytime you've got a thought listening
to our podcasts or watching a wrestling show, send that
thought or that question that you want us to talk
about in Wade Keller podcast at pwtorch dot com. That

(24:47):
includes on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown.
As you're watching the show, whether it's live or on
delay if your West Coast, send an email questions and
we'll either get to it on the post show or
one of our mail bag editions very likely my co host.
The other voice you hear is Pro Wrestling Torch columnist
Zach Haydorn. He also writes the Raw Old Perspective reports.

(25:09):
You can see his report on Raw from last night
on PW torch dot com or for most of you
two nights ago by the time you get to a
chance to download this and he also writes columns for
the prosing Torch Weekly newsletter and does VIP podcast. Zach, welcome,
great to be here.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Way, thanks for having me. This is a blast.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
Absolutely, you do so much. I don't we don't have
time to have your rundown everything, but hosting the Bruce
Mitchell mail bag and your your VIP podcast that looks
in depth at a single topic or a single like
match or event in wrestling is one of the most
unique on the canvas with Zach Haydorn really stands out.

(25:47):
Maybe we'll have you just talk a little bit about
what you did this past couple weeks with that format,
because I think that's probably worth focusing on here before
we get back to emails.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, the the show's call on the canvas, And as
you said, it's a it's a kind of a deep
look into the current usually a current event in wrestling
and kind of leaving all the booking conversation at the
door and winners loser at the door and just talk
about like the art and the performance behind behind that
current event. Sometimes though we go back into the back

(26:20):
in the history and then and then look at at
other topics and what we did with a guest co host,
Ryan Drossty of the Top Rope Nation podcast joined me,
and we took a deep dive into Stone Cold Steve
Austin's nineteen ninety nine pay per view run. So we
watched every every match of his on pay per view

(26:40):
in nineteen ninety nine and just broke down all those
matches in chronological order, from the start of the year
at the Royal Rumble all the way up until he
he leaves the company with his UH with his with
his neck injury. So it was a fascinating, really fun
time to go back and look at everything that wrestling
was at that time in nineteen ninety nine is you know,

(27:02):
hot crowds, big huge stars, huge reactions, but you know,
some some interesting things in matches that you just don't
remember and that don't necessarily play.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
All that well all the all these years later. So
it was a really, really a fun ride. I think
that year is just a really interesting year in wrestling.
It's kind of peakstone Cold in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yeah, and some really you know, you got the Austin
mcmaon stuff, you got Triple H's rise as a heel.
That's all there, so so check it out.

Speaker 2 (27:33):
Go vip. It's called on the Canvas and we kind
of break that year.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Into two shows, so you can listen to the first
part and then the second part with dropped was dropped last.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Week awesome, So one of many reasons to go v
ip everybody. PW torch dot com slash go vi ip.
I hear a rumor there's a sale going on, so
you can check that out too at PW torch dot
com on the main listing or on the sidebar if
you look on our desktop site. Let's uh, let's let's
jump to Zach's second question here onto all out. I

(28:01):
think they should put the world title onne MGF and
let him be the Heat Seeking Champion for six to
eight months until someone like king Man Page beats him
for it. Beyond that, what do you see Chris Jericho
doing it all out? Since I think Orage Cassidy is
probably beating him borrow night, we'll Mike Tyson figure into it.
And lastly, does Kenny Omega finally turn on Page after
they lose the belts to FTR at the show? Lots?

(28:22):
What I mean, why didn't he just say spend an
hour talking about the top stories in aw right Now.
He packed that into three sentences. Yes, which is which
is great, which is fine. So m jeff pro or
con giving him the championship. They've touted that he has
a really good singles record. I would like to see

(28:44):
them in the next couple of weeks, show highlights of
a lot of his victories and have it be not
in a smarmy MGF self produced video, but something they
go to that that seems more sports like, you know,
tell the story and video here's John Moxley's reign so far,
and then tell the story here's what Mgs's been doing,
and frame it as you know, hang a lantern on

(29:06):
the problems of mgfis as they fear or gauge fans
think of him, which is he's more of a punk
who runs from a fight than a badass who you
think can mouth off and back it up in the ring.
And you know, Roddy Piper was very careful to be
the punk who mouthed off, who could back it up
in the ring. And so show a video package that

(29:28):
shows MJF winning and winning decisively all the matches that
he's won, and shall put together something that shows him
as a threat, so that you are framing him in
a way that that even alleviates my perception of him,
which is, yeah, a guy who you know racked up
a undefeated singles record, but who did he beat, how
did he look doing it, and under what means did
he win? How much cheating was there? So build him up,

(29:50):
make him more of a threat. I still think even
if they do that, that's just to build him up
as a challenger. I haven't thought through the array of
finishes pro and con on that I would be okay
with or not okay with. But I think Moxley's been
to go champion so far, and I think he's the
guy you want to bring into the fall season with you.
I think with the demo ratings they beat Raw this

(30:12):
week in the eighteen to thirty four male demo Monday
compared to last Wednesday, AW had a better eighteen to
thirty four male demo. I don't think you mess with it.
I think you let John Moxley continue to be your
standard bearer MGFF then moves on a fewd to somebody
else a year or two from now. MGF so young.
I'm for a six to eight month or longer rain.
Right now, I say, stay with Moxley, stay the course

(30:32):
with him. Zach, where are you?

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah? I'm right there too, yep.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
And for that reason, I think if you kind of
if you were AW in February, right like when the
title was on Moxley or March or whatever, and you're
kind of, you know, the ratings are good, but they're
not you know, on fire quite yet. That's not to
say they're on fire now, but I mean now they're
they're consistently in a good place week to week and
growing week to week two in a in a pandemic year,

(30:58):
and that's you know, that's magnificant in my eyes. So
for that reason, I think, yeah, you don't want to
rock the boat, you know, you things are going are
going pretty well. And I think John Moxley's a big,
a big reason for that. I mean, he's he's a
he's arguably the biggest star that they have. And I
know he comes from from WWE, but he's never felt

(31:19):
to me as like a you know, a WWE guy
just playing a part, you know, on the AW roster.
You know, he seems like an AW guy right now.
I kind of relate it to you know Aj Styles
in WWE, like you could look at him coming in like, oh,
it's it's the former you know TNA guy. But Styles
really adapted well to the WWE environment and now I

(31:39):
see him as a WWE guy, and I kind of
see Moxley in the same light. So I don't think
they have that issue. And because things are going so well,
and because he's he still has opponents that that that
he can face and different programs he can he can
run with, I I keep the belt on him too.
And it's not that I don't think MJF can have

(31:59):
a run with the.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Title right now either.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
I think that was my issue with putting them together
so quick, is that I think both of them, both
of them really need to win this.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Match in a lot of ways.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
I think, you know, MJF losing his first title opportunity
to John Moxley, like, I think that that hurts some
of his credibility that he's already struggled to build up.
And on the flip side, Moxley losing same kind of thing.
I mean, he's the you know, the badass champion that
kind of I think if he loses outright to this

(32:29):
kind of punk MJF, who who doesn't have a whole
lot of credibility behind him, you know, that weakens him
a little bit too. So I think they're in I
think the few so far has been okay. I think
I can do without the kind of political undertones with it.
I think is straight up MJF. You know, character going
up against John Moxley is enough and entertaining in its

(32:51):
own right. But with that said, I think what they've
done so far has been has been effective and it's
been entertaining to watch. But I think they're play with
fire in terms of what they have to do to
book this thing successfully. But to answer the next question,
I do think you keep developed on Moxley right now,
Aw's trending in the right direction, The arrow is pointing,

(33:13):
you know, up ish, and I just don't think you
want to rock that right now with so much happening
around the world.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
Chris Jericho, Orange Cassidy, what what what do you predicts
going to happen tomorrow night? And is does this become
then a trilogy?

Speaker 2 (33:31):
That's where I'm headed.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yep, I think I think to Orange Cassidy gets his
his win tomorrow, and you know, it leaves the door
open for the kind of the trilogy match at all Out.
I mean, I think that's that's the road that they
appear to be going down. And Mike Tyson, I think
that certainly could be a possibility. Maybe he you know,
he gets involved somehow on the Orange Cassidy side of things.

(33:53):
But I think, you know, the way they've kind of
mapped this feud out, it seems like it's tailor made
for a trilogy at point. You got the second mask
coming up tomorrow night, and then you know, in a
few weeks time, you can you can do the big
blowoff mat. So that seems like an obvious one to me,
and I think if they do it right, that third
match will seem like a pretty big deal.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Come Come, all Out.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
with ads and plugs remove the Weight Keller Prosing podcast,
Weight Keller Prosing post shows and the PW Torch daily
cast throughout the week with ads and plugs remove, plus
a few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just
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out Patreon dot com, slash, PW Torch vip that's Patreon

(34:39):
dot Com, slash, PW, Torch VIP, and you can also
upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Well,
where what's the best case scenario for Orange Cassidy over
the next two years?

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Oh? Boy, well, I'll alter it.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Can he be? Can he become an AW world champion
two years from now?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Is he?

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Is he that level of a talent or is this
sort of the peak? Or is it he's upper a
second tier guy who can battle main eventers. But that
might be it.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
No, I don't think so. I think he could be.
I think he could be a.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
Guy at the at the at the top at least,
you know, he might not be a guy that hangs
on to the championship for you know, a year's run.
But I think, you know, I saw I really finally
it clicked for me, like the whole character in the
whole gimmick, when I was able to sit in arena
at Revolution and watch and watch it live like that

(35:43):
really is when the whole picture kind of unveiled itself.
And when you watch that, not only do you like
chuckle at some of the things that he's doing, but
you watch the reaction to him and it's it's passionate
in a lot of ways from from virtually the entire
audience that at that point, and then you see it
in different arenas too, And I think he's I don't know,

(36:05):
he's just got that it factor to me. And he
also has a unique gimmick, something that's really never been
done before in this way in in in the wrestling business.
And I think because of those two things, the passion
that the audience has for him, the sympathy he's able
to drum up as a babyface, the uniqueness of his
character and his act, and I think you've got something

(36:27):
there potentially, if if if done right, I think he's
got Slowly.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
He's building some credibility in the ring. I think his
fire as a babyface, you know, as far as his matches.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Goes, it looks, it looks real, it looks authentic, it
looks like he could he could, you know, beat you
in a fight. So yeah, I certainly I'm not pulling
it off the table by any means. Like I think
he's he's popular enough, and I think his character has
a unique, you know, and unique element to it that
is is attractive to to audiences. And I think audiences,

(36:57):
especially that are on the on the younger end, people
that you have never who never seen anything like it before.
To me, it's it's an attractive play. I think I
mentioned a couple of times I usually watched kind of
bigger pay per views with with a casual audience, a
group of casual fans, and to a tea it's they're

(37:19):
in love with Orange Cassidy. I mean, there's just something
attractive about that gimmick and about that act that draws attention,
I think, and I think when you have that like,
that's important and I think it can go a long way.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Yes, And there's nothing wrong if Orange Cassidy turns out
to be really cool, special attraction, high high mid Carter
visits incredibly main event opponents and fuse with him, and
he's just kind of that that special attraction, someone who
there's never been anybody like him and there might never

(37:53):
be again. But he he sells merchandise, he's iconic, he
represents an act that people really enjoy. I mean, like
it's okay because I don't think AW is looking at
their their roster and going everybody needs to fit a
really traditional slot, and Orange Cassidy might not fit a
traditional slot, but compared to being the sidekick mascot of

(38:16):
a mid card tag team the Best Friends, I mean,
he's way beyond that already, and so you know, I
don't you know, I don't foresee him being a world champion.
I throw that out there as you know, the highest
end of of what his upside is, and I don't
see that. I'm almost ready to rule it out, almost
but that's not something I won't just absolutely rull it out,
but pretty close. But I think he's really I mean,

(38:39):
he's and I don't want to trust WWB with him,
but I think I trust a W with him. I
trust Chris Jericho with him. I think that you know,
Jericho has been uh you know, elevating Orange Jericho elevating
or Cassidy is a really ideal use of Chris Jericho
out of the gate. You give him, you know, you
give AW the name value of this legacy star, you know,

(39:02):
who has all the credibility that aw's top talent should
have with its core audience, which is the new Japan
cred But he also has that mainstream crossover appeal where
people who have been on a journey with him for
twenty five years want to see this chapter. So he
was your representative at the start your flagship, and now
he's fifty ish year old, great talker, at the peak

(39:23):
of his game in every way other than just physically
slowing down, and he's able to help elevate other guys,
and so that works out really well. Do you think Tyson?
Do you think Mike Tyson ends up back in the mix?
Or do you think for a variety of reasons, he's
got a fight coming up and the progressing version of

(39:45):
the me two movement happened speaking out? I mean, is
does that kind of rule him out because of his
pastor or at least a dous sub bucket of ice
on cashing in on what that might have been, whatever
it would have been. And different people have different ideas
of how big of a celebrity Mike Tyson was or
is at this point. But do you see that as
sort of off the table at least for now?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
I do? I mean, I mean not.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I don't know that Mike Tyson, you know, matters enough
to to to really you know, drive a conversation around
the me too stuff that obviously surrounds him.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
But I still just.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
It's not something that I think, aw, well, he wants
to touch it at this point, and I don't know
that he drives enough you know, on the other side
as far as business and revenue goes to make it
to make it worth their trouble. And then on top
of that, like you know, I think his fight got moved.
I think I think he got postponed a couple months.

(40:39):
So now the timing really doesn't even line up well
for him either to be on you know, a w
to to help promote that fight. But really I think
you just want to just let that thing lie for
a little bit. And I think it's more important to
be respectful to that, to the me too movement, and
you know, kind of plant your flag on the right
side of things, and that means probably not doing business

(41:02):
with Mike Tyson right now.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
And then uh, finally hunt our aew journey here the
path of Kenny Omega turning on page Does that happen
at all out after losing the belts to FTR and
and then you know, whether you think it's gonna happen
or not, answer that, but uh, if it does happen,
is that what we need for Kenny Omega to become

(41:25):
relevant going into the Fall, you know, truly relevant for
a W because he you know, compared to what I
expected his impact to be. You know, it's a two
out of ten. Does this get him up to six, seven,
eight if he goes heel or nine or ten?

Speaker 3 (41:39):
Boy, Yeah, he's been quite the quite the story, and
quite the subject to look at for for a W.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
I think I think the heel turn makes.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
Sense at all out you know, I think it makes
sense to do it there. You kind of put a
bow on their run as as as tag team champions,
and you pass the belt off to FTR to do
their thing with with the Young Bucks, and then you're
you're left with a ready made feud between Keny Omega
and and Adam Page. And I think, you know, if

(42:10):
you would ask me at the start of of of Dynamite, hey,
Keny Omega is gonna gonna turn heel within a year,
I would have said, Man, that's that's crazy. He's one
of the biggest stars that they have, one of the
biggest gets that they that they got, the fans love them.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
I kind of would have been like, I don't, you know,
I just I just don't see it.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
But seeing you know, the the lack of character development
and the lack of personality that he's shown throughout the
Dynamite run here thus far. I mean, a He'll turn
if nothing else, would just freshen him up a little bit.
It would shine the light back back on him as
a as a single star. And I think at the
very least like that's important. At the same time, I

(42:53):
think even if you do that, and I think it is,
it is likely. I think you still have a lot
of singles are that are kind of hi higher than
him right now. As crazy as that is to say,
I mean you look at John Moxley, Cody Christ, Jericho,
even somebody like Orange Cassidy feels a little bit hotter
than than Kenny Omega right now. And I think that's

(43:14):
even with with the heel turns. So I think it
freshens him up. And I think really what he needs
is he needs that feud with with Page to be
a good one. I mean, he needs that thing to
have two or three just stellar Kenny Omega style matches
to kind of just to kind of get him going again,
to like kind of just jump starting. And I think

(43:37):
if he does that, then I think, you know, he's
back in the picture, but he needs that few to
be a good one. I think he needs to take
the training wheels off and just you know, hit the
ground running hard with it as a heel and try
to just recalibrate everything. And I think once he does that,
then I think he I think he'll be fine. But
for the time being, I mean he at the very
least the heel turns are refresh and I think that

(43:57):
is worth it.

Speaker 5 (44:02):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (44:18):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
And aw is in a good spot, you know. They
they're to do demographic ratings that are basically tied with
this cable Juggernaut legacy show that is Monday Night Raw
and to be within a whisper of the eighteen to
forty nine demo comparing last Wednesday to this Monday's Raw
and to beat them in the mail eighteen to thirty
four demo. You know, I mean, I know they had

(44:59):
to turnover at WarnerMedia, and their biggest booster who made
Dynamite a thing, is gone. But AW has a multi
year deal. They're landing in the top five, top ten ratings,
and key demographics. They have recovered from a little bit
of a shaky run up against NXT with some viewership drop.
I think they're gonna be fine. I think they're they're

(45:20):
set up. I know there's a whole separate story or article,
but AW has had the best luck like that. I mean,
getting that TV deal done before their guy at WarnerMedia
gets ousted, if they didn't have that TV deal, or
if they didn't sign it before the pandemic led to

(45:41):
a downturn in viewership, or I mean, there's so many things,
and they've been largely healthy. They happen to be based
in Florida, where a lot of wrestlers are located, and
they have a Republican governor who's been kind of, you know,
more liberal in terms of did I just say Republican
governor liberal? But more loose when it comes to you know,
how the how sports would operate. They kind of wanted

(46:01):
sports to operate in Florida, where a lot of states
are like, don't don't bring people here.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
They get their own arena.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yes, and then exactly they have this gorgeous daily splace.
It's just perfect, perfect, Like it's it's not the ring's
not in the middle of an empty stadium. It's you know,
you can shoot hardcam opposite the big stage, in the
big screen with Piro and all that, and it's the
view you would have whether you at a crowd or not.
I mean, honestly, yeah, you didn't do a whole section
on it. So they've been fortunate. But I still I

(46:30):
can't remember why I brought that u virtually, but I
want if it's tied into Kenny, I want Kenny to
look like he's fighting to stay on the air, you know,
I want him to show up. You know, I know
he's you know, he's a quirky guy and he has
his fun on being the elite, but I sort of
want to get a sense that he cares more about
dynamite than he does being quirky and goofing off on

(46:50):
being the elite and and that you know, top, top
guys who really make a difference in this industry rarely
have a casual, you know whatever approach to things. They're hungry,
they've got a chip on their shoulder. I don't see
any hunger. I don't see a chip on Kenny's shoulder.
I see him as thinking he's arrived. He's the best.

(47:11):
He broke the Meltzer Star rating system, and so you know,
what more is there to prove. I'm just gonna show
up and people should worship me. I want a chip
on a shoulder. I want him to look like he
still has something to prove to the second million people
out there who might become a fan of his. And
I just haven't seen it in ten months, so, you know,
since they gone on dynamite. So bring it on. I

(47:31):
don't know what Maybe it's not in him, and if
it's not, so be it. But if it's in him,
bring it on.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yep. I'm well said. I mean, I totally, I totally
agree with that.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
I think you know, there is you know, he kind
of reminds me of of you know, Shinsky Nakamura coming
wwe you know, like you know, if you know him,
you're kind of like, Oh, this is gonna be great,
and then you're kind of like, yeah, that was okay,
that was okay. And then you get to the point
where it's like, wait a minute, what's what's going on here?
You know, what's what's happening here? And and and that's

(48:03):
the kind of feeling I have with with Kenny Omega.
There's there's stars on that show that shouldn't be more
over then than Kenny, right, I mean, period, Like it
just it should not. It should not be that way,
and and it is right now. And the good thing
is if you're if you're aw if you can, you know,
try to find a way to to kind of revitalize

(48:25):
Kenny Omega. You've had all this success really with without him,
and and now if you can kind of get him going,
you add that in and you know, it's kind of
grow from there.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
It's like being in first place in Major League Baseball,
but you're starting Ace pitcher has been out for the
first half of the season and you get to bring
him in and now all of a sudden, it's like,
you know, you've just gotten deeper, you know, whatever sports
analogy you need, you've been playing with your backup quarterback
and now your starter comes back, so you know he
can be that guy and take him to the next level.
But I want him to be hungry. I wanted to
have a chip on his shoulder. I don't want him

(48:59):
to think I'm here worship me, I'm the greatest, and
I'm just gonna kind of go through my motions and
that's gonna be good enough. And I know I hear
that from people that that's the vibe they're getting from
him right now is I'm Kenny. Did you see my
work in New Japan? Do you know the praise I
got from all kinds of people about how great I am?
And it's like, you're you've got you gotta be hungry

(49:20):
and have that chip on your shoulder and have something
to prove. And I just haven't seen him show that
he wants to prove anything. So thanks for downloading today's show.
Take it to the next level with a VIP membership,
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(49:42):
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(50:02):
Pw toorch dot com slash go VIIP. But I did
plan it this way, Zach. But the first email from Zach,
the second email from Zach's let's call it Tuesday, Zach,
I don't know Zach from Jamestown, Indiana. Heywaye and Zach.

(50:22):
AW has been getting a lot of pressure online recently
for the lack of minority wrestlers and women appearing on
Dynamite regularly. With this context in mind, should Scorpio Sky
beat Cody for the TNT Championship on Wednesday? Do you
think people will embrace that or see it as AW
trying to appease fans who haven't been satisfied with Aw's
booking a minority wrestlers. Timely question, given events of today
in politics on AW, Dark Sky has put together a

(50:44):
series of wins, and he cut a promo on last
week's episode where he reminded everyone he and Moxley are
the only two people to pin Jericho in aw With
that being said, the audience for Dark is nowhere near
what Dynamite gets, and as Cody said, it's shoulder content
that isn't needed that is it really needed to keep
up with a w parentheses or is it? I hope
this makes sense and everyone go vip. You absolutely will

(51:07):
not regret it. Thank you, Zach pw Torch dot com
slash go vip. If you're not a VIP member, you
can get information there on it.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
So, uh, Scorpio Skuy ends Cody's title reign? Is you
know we talked about ending Moxley's and making the case
against ending it at all out, what's the case for
Sky winning? Does it come with perks? Would it seem
like pandering or would it just be a sound booking
move or is it just way too prematured because the
Cody st and defend the defending champion just hasn't played

(51:37):
itself fully out yet.

Speaker 6 (51:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:39):
I mean, if it's me, I like the idea of
Scorpio Skuy taking that title off of off of Cody.
I mean, I think that that's a that's a good
way to push Sky up the cart more and you know,
a aw, you know, for all that they the kind
of the big game that they taught at the start

(52:01):
of Dynamite that they're gonna you know, push you know.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
A diverse set of acts.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
We haven't seen that yet, you know, we're almost a
year in, and so I think, you know, they should
be kind of held to the to the fire on
that and and and criticized for not doing that.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
And I think this is a good way. And Scorpio
is a.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Good talent that can that can can run with the
ball to to to do that, and I think he's
the right guy. That being said, I still think you
want to take care with that push, you know, and
not not because Scorpio's guy couldn't handle a run with
the title right now, but you want to make it
seem like a big deal. And so I think he

(52:39):
needs to be on Dynamite for for a handful of weeks,
winning his matches there, getting on the microphone, cutting promos,
talking about you know, the mission, what he's there for,
what he's trying to accomplish, and and have him talk
about the you know, the TNT title, and I think
you want to build that up and make the push
seem organic and and get fans behind it. I mean,

(53:01):
I don't know, it's been a while since Scorpio Sky
has even been on Dynamite if I'm if I remember correctly,
So I think you want to not a slow burn necessarily,
but I think you want to plant the right seeds
and grow them at the right time so that everything
comes together at the head and so that win when
it happens, feels like a really really big deal and
is as impactful as AW needs it to be to

(53:24):
get Scorpio Sky up to that next level. So that's
that's what I would do in a in a perfect scenario.
Just concerning Scorpio Sky. On the other side, though, I
think if you're and we've seen kind of hints at Cody,
you know, maybe going heel, you know, and I think
if you're gonna pull the trigger on that like sooner
than later, you could use tomorrow night's match as a

(53:46):
way to to really kind of jump start that heel turn.
Have Scorpio go over he wins the title, and then
you know, Cody kind of goes down to the through
the dark path, you know, from there, and use that
kind of as the as the catalyst for it.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
So I can see both sides of things like Scorpio
getting the title.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
But you know, if I'm playing it out, you just
want to make it meaningful and you want to make
it matter, and you want to have fans kind of
salivating for that moment. And I just don't think that
he's at that point right now, but it wouldn't take
him long to get there.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, I mean, I think you're gonna have somebody win
out of no sort of out of nowhere. I mean,
he beat Jericho, he made that point. He sky can
do that. But in Scorpioso as good, you know, And
I think he looks like he carries himself and looks
like somebody who has confidence and the ability to just
be a proud defending TNT champion. You know. It's not

(54:39):
like he doesn't look like that would be a good
role for him. I don't know that this is the
right time to do it. I would rather have him
win some matches on Dynamite and get people more invested
in who he is. And it does feel as if
he's just forgotten about weeks at a time by the
main crew putting together Dynamite. I don't think that scu

(54:59):
Is is an act that has a ton of that's
done a ton to build itself up. You know, what
does it mean? Who are they? What do they stand for?
What it's like, there's this indie story, there's this backstory
with them for people who follow them all around the
country and all these different promotions and especially in SoCal,
but that hasn't really been established on Dynamite and Sky

(55:20):
sort of feels like the third guy. He's who's broken
off and been a successful singles guy, but it's just
who are they? What do they stand for? Who is he?
It's been starting to stop with him and so having
him and Cody's rain out of nowhere, I think short
changes a better story they can tell with the TNT title.
That's that if they do it and they surprise us,
then guess what We're going to be on guard for
all title shots in the future because there's no booking

(55:42):
predictability with aw when it comes to for give, when
it comes to yeah, foreshadowing and setting up what feels
like the logical conclusion, and frankly, I'm not against doing
that now and.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
Then no, no, I mean, yeah, that certainly is the
kind of the plus side of doing it. You know,
then everybody has to pay attention to the title matches
after that, including the you know, the aw world title,
like I mean, they have championship matches on on Dynamite,
and so if you pull the trigger on something like that, yeah,
it's gonna you know, it's gonna attract a lot of
a lot of attention.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
But yeah, I definitely.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
Sided with you though that I'd rather just build it
up a little more because I think it would just
it would mean more for for Sky at that point
to have to have that have him go through that journey.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
If you win a title, if you win a title
and people don't care about you a lot or you know,
it's it's it's I once people care about Scorpial Sky
to some degree. But there's way more they can do
to get people really invested in a story than what
they've done in the last ten months with the start
and stop and he just sort of disappears and then
reappears on Dynamite, and I just I think people who

(56:46):
I think the team that writes Dynamite, Tony Kahan and
company need to assume the majority of their audience don't
watch anything else that they're not on social media, that
they're not watching being the other they're not watching A
to B Dark, they're not watching the rod two shows.
Make sure it's a self contained show, and if there's
something important that's happening on the other shows that is
determining what you do with your wrestlers in your feuds,

(57:07):
make sure you show that in highlight packages on Dynamite
so you catch people up or else you know your
short change. But to me, I think there's a better
story to tell with Sky then he wins a title
before people are really invested in that in his story.
I think, you know, it's a chance for Cody to
have a nice match with Sky and Sky to put
in a good showing, and maybe I'd see that as
a start of pushing Scorpio better than they have been

(57:29):
as opposed to kind of out of nowhere payoff.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
Yeah, and I think you know, we could see I
think Cody's all out match is kind of up in
the air right now, and I wonder if you know,
tomorrow night, we'll we'll see him kind of maybe maybe
he uses some kind of underhanded tactic to win the
to win the match, and then you go on and
you have a segment match between Cody and and Scorpio

(57:53):
at all out after you know, four weeks of storytelling.
I mean, I think that's that's potentially on the table too.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Yes, yep.

Speaker 7 (58:03):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
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(58:25):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 8 (58:30):
Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Up next is Dave. It's not Zach, breaking news Dave
for Nova Scotia on Raw last night. There were no dqs,
which I think was great. I think if the matches
had more clean finishes, they could gain more fans who
are tired of the same old BS finishes. What are
your thoughts? Ps, I just sign up for VIP and
I'm really enjoying it. Thank you, David. Welcome aboard, dive

(59:01):
into those archives, get the VP podcast feeds on your phone,
on your phone app, and really get everything out of
it you can. And I appreciate the kind words to
praise WWE for not doing TQ finishes when they're doing,
you know, coming out of SmackDown last Friday, which was
it was ridiculous. I mean, I think people might have

(59:22):
thought I was defending it when I just made the
case that here's it didn't feel like cop out finishes.
It felt like they had a cascade effect that they
wanted based on a storyline of Oh, you're gonna you're
gonna screw me over. I'm gonna screw you over, You're
gonna screw you over, I'm gonna screw you over. There
was a cascating effect from one match to another to
another where it didn't feel like the normal sort of
cop out finish of oh, we don't really want this
person to lose anything. We don't want to do a

(59:44):
clean finish, and we don't but we don't really aren't
ready to put this person over in that way, so
we'll we'll have the excuse so they got distracted. Raw
was back to So to me, if you had clean
finishes all the time, what happened Friday on SmackDown would
have been the occasion where you don't where you could say,
oh god, yeah, this is really breaking down the integrity

(01:00:04):
of fighting to see who the winner is. And there
would be actually actually heat on Chad Gable and Baron
Corbin for screwing it up. And then you know, Matt
riddle interfering would have seemed more justified because he was
getting back at something that really took something away from him.
W B hasn't set up that that, you know, rules
of engagement with their booking. And so to praise Raw
for not having DQ finishes coming out of SmackDown last Friday,

(01:00:28):
I'm not at all and ready to do that because
it's still there's still too many distraction finishes in WWE.
But man, would I love to see them take on
a six week challenge of all clean finishes. I just
I think they would. It's it's like, if I use
a food analogy, if you got a cupboard full of

(01:00:49):
candy and a refrigerator full of apples, and a shelf
and a bowl full of bananas, a lot of people
are just gonna go for that candy, you know, like
given the choice, and if you take the candy away,
and now you're eating apples before they're getting old in
the fridge, and you're eating the bananas before they're turning brown,
and you're eating it and like that's your snack of
choice and you haven't, you know, screwed up your taste

(01:01:10):
buds with over indulging and processed sugar candy. All of
a sudden, it's like, oh, I feel better. It was
a little extra work. I had to wash the apple,
i'd a peeled the banana, I'd to worry if it
was fresh or not. Where the bake of candy I
know is going to be consistently great, but you end
up with better nutrition. So there's my weird food analogy
for wwe get rid of the candy covered, get rid
of the distraction. Finish that makes you feel good in

(01:01:31):
the short term because nobody lost anything. Oh yes she won,
but she didn't really lose because of the distraction that
there's no why would people invest in your matches if
that's if the finishes mean nothing because there's always an
asterisk next to every win and loss or the majority
of them. So it's not just about a DQ. It's

(01:01:51):
also about did something get proven in the match? And
I know they have five hours of primetime TV between
Ron Smacked Down plus pay per views. It's a lot
of TV to book and they have small rosters and
it's tough. And that's where AW benefits from having, you know,
having matches that are more randomized and where somebody does
beat somebody who's lower on the card and it's it's decisive,

(01:02:12):
but it's still holding the audience. Zach got am, I
being too hard on WWE not hard enough? What do
you think of David saying, you know, give them some
give them some credit for not doing the same old
lame finishes on RAW last night?

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:02:27):
No, I I think if anything, you could be more
more critical because like, really sure that the finishes last
night weren't the Q they weren't disqualifications and sure, but
you have to look at, you know, what is ww
trying to get out of their finishes, Like that's the key.
And I think if you look at the finishes that

(01:02:48):
they that we had, they weren't decus, but they still
were existed for the same reasons which were we don't
want to finish this feud yet, we don't want someone
to beat somebody else. We just that we don't have
you know, a here, and so they use different kind
of Shenanigan BS finishes instead of the DQ. But to me,
that's still symptomatic of the same issue, which is booking

(01:03:10):
these matches and and and not like and not paying
them off. And I think it hurts the show. What's interesting, though,
is that the that just not having DQ finishes it
made the show feel different, even though the root of
it was really was really the same.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
And I think w W could.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Take something away from that and say to themselves, wow, wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
We changed it up.

Speaker 3 (01:03:33):
We made it seem like there were you know, quote
unquote finishes there weren't really, and people, you know, we're
we're intrigued by that, Like that should tell them something,
that should tell them that, hey, people, you know you're
not gonna you know, somebody losing one match on your
show doesn't bury them, you know, it's it's it helps
the matches mean something so that when they win again,
it matters. And I think it's yeah, no, you just

(01:03:56):
you can't praise them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
It's the it's kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
The same old story, just with a different different, you know,
different cover of the book. But the endgame there is
still is still the same and they got to get
away from that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
And I think you articulated as well.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
Why Yeah, if they did six weeks of no sugar
snacks in the cupboard, do all clean finishes, it would
challenge their booking. There would be suddenly I think fans
would be more invested in the matches because you know,
I mean, how often I don't know what instance it
was less than that on raw and I was gonna
type it up and I didn't andy I report, you know,
like there was a near fall and it's like, you know,

(01:04:29):
I know, we don't have a crowd to kind of
let them know. But if there was a crowd there,
nobody would have popped because they know there hasn't been
a distraction yet. And you know, I mean, people would
be invested in matches start to finish if you shook
up the predictability, if you had finishes happening two minutes
in when you expected twelve, or a match went fourteen
minutes and had a clean finish before anyone interfered, or
there was a controversy at ringside or someone kicked out

(01:04:52):
of a finisher if wwwe, if they shook things up
in that way, I know, it just feels like they're
kind of phoning it in and it's formulaic and it's
good enough, but man, I think it would be so refreshing,
and I think they'd be rewarded viewership wise and just
in positive reviews and buzz if suddenly that formulaic way
that they book finishes was thrown out and they started

(01:05:13):
doing clean finishes across the board. And by the way,
clean finishes are a whole other booking technique. It gives
you something to talk about next week. When someone loses
a match expected or unexpected, that's something you talk about
later in the show or the next week, and it
becomes a storyline, so you don't have to make the
story about ninjas or you know, other you know, not
crushes or whatever mean girl comments, like you can actually

(01:05:35):
bring that sports vibe into it where the wins and
losses actually are driving a good part of your storylines.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Absolutely, And two other things to that point, the first
one being clean finish. You know, having an environment where
the audience is expecting clean finishes, like it'll help define
your baby faces in your heels, because if there's heels
out there that are constantly winning their matches like outright,

(01:06:05):
you know, by being heels like, that's gonna matter, and
that's gonna make people want to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
See those heels lose. So I think that's important.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
I think it realigns your your roster and makes it
easier for you know, the talent to get over heel
as either as a heel or as.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
A as a babyface.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
So I think that's another reason to do it. And
then you started to go down the path of you know,
the business reason is really important. You know right now,
if you see on on on Saturday morning on the
WWE Twitter feed, Oh it's gonna be Shane Basler versus
Sasha Banks on Raw, you know, they put it out

(01:06:41):
there to try to attract viewers, but the core WWE
audience knows, because of WWE's history, that that's not as
much see as they're making it out to be because
they're probably not gonna you know, there's not gonna be
an outcome, there's not going to be a finish. They're
not gonna see anything definitive there one way or the other.
But if you take your time and you start, you know,

(01:07:01):
cultivating an environment for fans where they know that, hey,
if we're putting out there that Shanna Bezlers is gonna
wrestle the Slasha Banks and I'm just picking that out
of Saint air, Like if we know that's going to happen, Man,
we need to watch that because it because it matters,
because it's going to have a finish, and it's going
to be worth worth watching. And I don't think they're
not able to drive ratings numbers with their matches because

(01:07:23):
I don't. I really don't think because ww's audience is
conditioned to think.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
That they're not going to pay that off. I'll check
it out at.

Speaker 3 (01:07:29):
The next pay per view, And I think that's a
that's a hindrance to to driving stronger ratings.

Speaker 1 (01:07:36):
Agreed, Agreed, And oh man, I mean if they if
they feel like they're in a rut and they want
to get out of it, you put a new parameter
on your set. It's like we say about Shain McMahon earlier.
You know, if you force him to answer questions from
Charlie Caruso. But it's it's a Chris Wallace Fox Sunday
Morning type interview where you're like, whoa, it's it's someone
you wouldn't necessarily expect to ask the toughest questions Charlie

(01:07:59):
Crusi and context, but she is. And it forces Shane
to like actually explain in his own mind, get the
gimmick straight, and all the people supporting this Foreshane behind
the scenes. That works same thing with booking. If you
if you are forced into doing clean finishes, it forces
you to break some from bad habits. And there's such
as a term earlier for the word cascade, but I

(01:08:22):
think there's a cascading effect of positives that would result
from that. And aw is doing just fine using the
approach of I mean, they do some distraction finish, there's
no question, but they they don't do deques, they don't
do countouts like that's incredibly rare, and they and they're
making it work.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
Yeah, and their distraction finishes aren't aren't a crutch. There's
an avenue to storyline.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
That's exactly That's important too, And that was my point
about Smackdow last week, is those finishes, if that would
be normally did clean finishes, if that was the effect
all these you know this cascade effect of people interfering
in people's matches. It's like this whole thing is unraveling
because of something that was gone. But if you know,
if if it just a sort of par for the course,
you don't even get the effect you're looking for out
of it when you do do it, or when it

(01:09:05):
would be okay to do it. You don't have to
wait for the way Keller Pro Wrestling post show to
find out what I thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown.
Each week, you can check out my reports that are
updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com.
My written report will tell you what's happening in detail

(01:09:28):
in case you missed the show, and it will also
analyze key segments and give my random thoughts quips on
what I am watching as it airs. So check it
out every Monday night and Tuesday night at pwtorch dot com.
That also applies to WWE pay perviews. I cover those
live at pw torch dot com with a detailed written
report with star ratings, and of course you can find

(01:09:48):
other TV reports from other contributors to PW torch such
as nxt roh Impact Wrestling and more. Check it out
pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV and pay
per views written report. All right up next, let's go

(01:10:14):
to j from New York. Hello, Wait and Zach. After
watching Raw and listening to your post show, I feel
compelled to write in and share an opinion on retribution
and WWE creative. Why should be concerned with how uncomfortable
this faction makes a part of their fan base. Let's
be blunt here. Retribution is based on a group that
roughly fifty percent of the American public considers to be
a menace. Whether the ever dwindling pro wrestling audience is

(01:10:37):
on that side of the political spectrum should be a
consideration for WWE, but not as a reason to not
feature the faction. It should primarily be a reason to
feature them as often as possible. Let's of the fans
get angry. Maybe this will cause them to have a
genuine emotional investment in a wrestling angle, again a rare
occurrence nowadays. The part of the fan base that's on
the other side of the political spectrum already has their
opinions on that group. Retribution just looks the part of

(01:11:00):
on a wrestling show. H Zach your take on on this.
I'm still not convinced. I'm still not sure where they're
heading with this. I I mean, are there is retribution
necessarily going to be framed as a heel group? Would
Vince Man allow someone to throw a cinderblock through a
glass window at the performance center and portray them as babyfaces?

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Is that in his.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Could? I mean, because I kind of I kind of
think I have a sense. I mean, he's that doesn't
tweet a lot or comment on it, but I kind
of have a sense that if he turns on the
news and he sees, you know, looting, I kind of
I don't think he's I kind of think I know
his reaction to to that. If he sees a statue
being taken down, I think I probably can predict his

(01:11:46):
thoughts on that, and breaking windows and and turning over cars.
I I assume Vince thinks this is a heel group,
but it's not a It's not a faction portrayed the
way that they're portrayed that's going whose actions are going
to be seen the same way, But I think they'll
be seen very differently by different people. And I don't

(01:12:07):
think they framed it enough for us to know where
they're going, and I'm I'm hoping to maybe be pleasantly
surprised just by there being some nuance and unpredictability to
how this all plays out. And part of that is
they're smaller wrestlers. And yeah, they went after a bunch
of people and beat them up at ringside, the audience members.
But you know, do they have something that that they
think they that WWE believes that they can say when

(01:12:30):
they finally reveal who they are and speak out where
they're going to play into the idea that fans will
nod along and go, oh, I see why they did that.
I'm with them on this, I see why they needed
to take this approach or is it just going to
be a standard you know heal faction and then some
babyface action stands up to them and says, this isn't
how you do business. You got to follow the rules
and and enter ww E the right way by you know,

(01:12:50):
applying and with proper paperwork and going through the system.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
Boy, if there I can say this, if there was
a crowd, that storyline would not work as a you know,
I just don't think people buy that. You know, as
far as heels up against the WWE like as a company.
I think almost all the time, you know, we've seen
when that's presented itself, it's like the fans make the

(01:13:18):
company quote unquote the heel, and so I don't I
really don't think that would work with a fan environment.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
But it is intriguing to see kind of what they're
doing here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
And unfortunately, I think it's intriguing because I don't right now,
neither neither Avenue is working for me, Like if they're
a heel group, there's nothing about them right now that screams, man,
these guys are dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
These guys are bad, These guys are mean, These guys are.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
Tough, Like they look like a group of guys that
you know, Drew McIntyre should just run out in the
parking lot and just take care of them all like himself.
You know, I don't get a sense of, yeah, they're
flipping over cars, but then you kind of hear them
chanting and they're jumping around, and it's it's more obnoxious
than truly you know, heal menacing Like this isn't like

(01:14:08):
Randy Orton heal. This is just kind of something else,
And I don't I don't get the sense that there's
heat there on the other side of things. If if
they are gonna be this babyface group, I mean, there's
no connection with anything right now. Either they're just kind
of doing this. We haven't heard from them, we haven't
there's no reason as to why why they're around. There's

(01:14:29):
no personality behind them at all, and so there's nothing
really to engage with as far as like, yeah, I
like those guys and maybe that's coming. Maybe it is,
but we've seen so much of them now in this
form where it's like, if they wait too long, it's
gonna be hard to kind of turn that turn that
that ship around because of just how they've been portrayed.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
So I guess the simple way of saying is.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
I'm really I'm not buying it one either way as
Heros or baby Faces. I think they need to change course,
change direction a bit to kind of get it back
on track, regardless of how they decide to book it.
The thing that keeps flashing in my head about this
group is I'm wondering if the group retribution it really

(01:15:15):
isn't even those five people that we've been seeing like
that those are kind of the the puppets of the
real guys that are gonna, you know, come in at
some point.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
Like to me, that's the only thing, or I don't
want to.

Speaker 3 (01:15:27):
Say the only thing, because I'm sure there's a handful
of others, but that's that's a key that could kind
of save this like that, those are the puppets and
we haven't seen kind of the real, you know, puppeteers
at this point. And maybe that's when you have a
Donovan Dijakovic or a Tamaso Champa or somebody somebody like that,
somebody bigger with a name that comes in on the
back end to kind of solidify, Okay, this is what's

(01:15:50):
going on. These are my guys, and I think you
can kind of frame the angle up a little bit
better that way. But they gotta do it soon because
I kind of think they're they're treading water.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
At best right now.

Speaker 1 (01:16:00):
I think that's a great point that, you know, looking
at these the people under the mask doing the work.
They could be the first wave, they could be the
pawns in the game of chess, but they're still the
back row. Who's going to show up and if so,
who is that? And so that that is I think
important to keep in mind as we as I prejudge
the height the size of these guys, and it doesn't

(01:16:21):
have to be a main event angle, you know. I mean,
I again on the postal last night, I said, you know,
it could be you know, some two or five live guys.
You know what what happened to TJP and uh and
Enzo and no m Are. You know, like it could
be just trying to make some you know, add some
relevance to to some people who are on the roster,
who just aren't really doing anything right now and they

(01:16:43):
are legitimately upset, and someone said, well, you're upset, you
want retribution. Let's turn that into affection. And it's sort
of a mid card thing. I don't know. I mean,
I hope they have something in mind. I hope the
payoff is good. The politics of it is is dangerous
territory and that's why I was, you know, I I
do not trust Vince McMahon to not come across as
if he's one out of step with a majority of

(01:17:04):
his audience, or two insensitive to the real world emotions
that people feel. When there are people in the society
who feel so on the outside looking in that they
have they don't believe that they can make a difference
and be heard without taking to the streets, and then

(01:17:24):
how heartbroken they feel when there's this small slice of
them who end up getting the camera shined on them
when they're doing when they're when they're when they're you know,
defacing or destroying things, and that isn't what the majority
were there to say or do, and they didn't want
to make the point in that way. You know, if
you go down that road and then you have people watching,

(01:17:45):
a lot of them are gonna be like, this is
a really dumb down, caricaturized version that's meant to scare people,
that doesn't really tap into what was really happening on
the streets of America, in the streets of the world
over the past two three months. And I think that
could be a big turn off not only to viewers,
but it could end up back firing when it comes
to sponsors and USA Network and Fox trusting them. So

(01:18:05):
it's just dangerous territory to travel. I think people tune
into wrestling shows to escape and not have to take
sides on something that has become polarizing that people feel
so emotionally charged about. And I think a lot of
times in situations like this, there's a side that feels
that they've been misrepresented and turned into a caricature for

(01:18:26):
political purposes, and the last thing they want to do
is tune into a wrestling show that bought into the
caricaturization and the out of context isolation of things that
don't represent what they stand for and what the majority
are really trying to do and the methods they're using,
and then see that being exploited in a way that
makes them feel marginalized or not heard all over again,

(01:18:47):
when all they're trying to do is tune into a
wrestling show to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
And absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
And the thing is, it's like the WWE as a whole,
Vince McMahon especially, they have absolutely no credibility to do
this the right way. So you know, I I think
they really they got to be careful because I mean
they could have, you know, whatever, the greatest angle ever

(01:19:15):
cooked up. But if it if it doesn't play well,
you know kind of in the in the within the
framework of the world right now, in the environment and
what's going on, like it's it's it's.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Gonna it will rub people the wrong way. I can
almost guarantee that and deservedly so deservedly so too.

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
Yeah, there's so many stories you can tell in wrestling,
and I'm not against using current events, but just be
sure you're you're you're being fair and it doesn't come
across the exploitative and it's not going to just conjure
up emotions that people don't want to relive from a
couple of months ago. If it's and if you do it,
be sure it's a main eventangle that's going to really draw.

Speaker 9 (01:19:54):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
If if you take this chance and you step and
you step in the wrong direction and you pay a
price and it was for mid card angle, you know,
then you question it even more.

Speaker 9 (01:20:09):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling
Coast to Coast where we scour the wrestling scene to
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Speaker 10 (01:20:18):
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Speaker 9 (01:20:25):
There are plenty of podcasts to voters at w W
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Speaker 10 (01:20:33):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
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Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
All right up, next, Let's go to j from New York. Hello,
Wait and Zach. After watching Raw and listening to your
post show, I feel compelled to write in and share
an opinion on retribution and WWE creative. Why should we
be concerned with how uncomfortable this faction makes a part
of their fan base. Let's be blunt here. Retribution is
based on a group that roughly fifty percent of the
American public considers to be a menace. Whether the ever

(01:21:50):
dwindling PROG wrestling audience is on that side of the
political spectrum should be a consideration for WWE, but not
as a reason to not feature the faction. It should
primarily be a reason to feature them as often as possible.
Let's so the fans get angry, maybe this will cause
them to have a genuine emotional investment in a wrestling angle.
Again a rare occurrence nowadays. The part of the fan
base that's on the other side of the political spectrum

(01:22:10):
already has their opinions on that group. Retribution just looks
the part on a wrestling show. Is Zach your take
on this? I'm still not convinced. I'm still not sure
where they're heading with this. I mean, are there is
Retribution necessarily going to be framed as a heel group?

(01:22:31):
Would vincent man allow someone to throw a cinderblock through
a glass window at the performance center? And portray them
as babyfaces.

Speaker 2 (01:22:37):
Is that in his could?

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
I mean, because I kinda think I have a sense.
I mean, that doesn't tweet a lot or comment on it,
but I kind of have a sense that if he
turns on the news and he sees, you know, looting,
I kind of I don't think he's I kind of
think I know his reaction to to that. If he
sees a statue being taken down, I think I probably
can his thoughts on that and breaking windows and turning

(01:23:05):
over cars. I assume Vince thinks this is a heel group,
but it's not a faction portrayed the way that they're
portrayed that's going whose actions are going to be seen
the same way. But I think they'll be seen very
differently by different people. And I don't think they framed
it enough for us to know where they're going. And
I'm I'm hoping to maybe be pleasantly surprised just by

(01:23:28):
there being some nuance and unpredictability to how this all
plays out. And part of that is they're smaller wrestlers.
And yeah, they went after a bunch of people and
beat them up at ringside, the audience members, but you know,
do they have something that that they think they that
WWE believes that they can say when they finally reveal
who they are and speak out where they're gonna play

(01:23:48):
into the idea that fans will nod along and go, oh,
I see why they did that. I'm with them on this,
I see why they needed to take this approach. Or
is it just going to be a standard you know,
heal faction and then some babyface action stands up to
them and says, this isn't how you do business. You
got to follow the rules and and enter WWE the
right way by you know, applying and with proper paperwork
and going through the system.

Speaker 2 (01:24:09):
Yeah. Boy, if I.

Speaker 3 (01:24:13):
Can say this, if there was a crowd, that storyline
would not work as a you know, I just don't
think people buy that, you know, as far as heels
up against the WWE like as a company, I think
almost all the time, you know, we've seen when that's
presented itself, it's like the fans make the company quote

(01:24:34):
unquote the heel and.

Speaker 2 (01:24:35):
So I don't I really don't think that would work
with a fan environment.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
But it is intriguing to see kind of what they're
doing here, and unfortunately I think it's intriguing.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
Because I don't right now, neither neither Avenue is working
for me.

Speaker 3 (01:24:52):
Like if they're a heel group, there's nothing about them
right now that screams, man, these guys are dangerous, These
guys are these guys are mean, These guys are tough,
Like they look like a group of guys that you know,
Drew McIntyre should just run out in the parking lot
and just take care of them all like himself. You know,
I don't get a sense of yeah, they're flipping over cars,

(01:25:14):
but then you kind of hear them chanting and they're
jumping around, and it's it's more obnoxious than truly you know,
heal menacing Like this isn't like Randy Orton heel. This
is just kind of something else. And don't I don't
get the sense that there's heat there on the other
side of things. If they are gonna be this babyface group,
I mean, there's no connection with anything right now either.

(01:25:37):
They're just kind of doing this. We haven't heard from them,
We haven't there's no reason as to why they're around.
There's no personality behind them at all, and so there's
nothing really to engage with as far as like, yeah,
I like those guys and maybe that's coming. Maybe it is,
but we've seen so much of them now in this
form where it's like, if they wait too long, it's

(01:26:00):
gonna be hard to kind of turn that turn that
that ship around because of just how they've been portrayed.
So I guess the simple way of saying is, I'm
really I'm not buying it one either way as heroes
or baby faces. I think they need to change course,
change direction a bit to kind of get it back
on track, regardless of how they decide to book it.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
The thing that keeps flashing in my head about this
group is.

Speaker 3 (01:26:25):
I'm wondering if the group retribution it really isn't even
those five people that we've been seeing like that those
are kind of the the puppets of the real guys
that are gonna, you know, come in at some point.
Like to me, that's the only thing, or I don't
want to say the only thing, because I'm sure there's
a handful of others, but that's that's a key that

(01:26:46):
could kind of save this, like that those are the
puppets and we haven't seen kind of the real you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:51):
Know, puppeteers at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:26:53):
And maybe that's when you have a Donovan Dijakovic or
a Tomasso Champa or somebody somebody like that, sobody bigger
with the name that comes in on the back end
to kind of solidify Okay, this is what's going on.
These are my guys, and I think you can kind
of frame the angle up a little bit better that way.
But they got to do it soon because I kind
of think they're they're treading water.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
At best right now.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
I think that's a great point that you know, looking
at these this the people under the mask doing the work.
They could be the first wave, they could be the
pawns in the game of chess, but they're still the
back row. Who's going to show up? And and if so,
who is that? And so that that is I think
important to keep in mind as we as I prejudge
the height the size of these guys, and it doesn't

(01:27:36):
have to be a main event angle, you know. I mean,
I again on the postal last night, I said, you know,
it could be you know, some two or five live guys.
You know what what happened to TJP and uh and
Enzo and no one are you know, like it could
be just trying to make some you know, add some
relevance to to some people who are on the roster
who just aren't really doing anything right now, and they

(01:27:57):
they are legitimately upset, and someone said, what you're upset,
you want retribution, Let's turn that into affection. And it's
sort of a mid card thing. I don't know. I mean,
I hope they have something in mind. I hope the
payoff is good. The politics of it is is dangerous territory.
And that's why I was, you know, I I do
not trust Vince McMahon to not come across as if
he's one out of step with a majority of his

(01:28:19):
audience or two insensitive to the real world emotions that
people feel. When there are people in the society who
feel so on the outside looking in that they have
they don't believe that they can make a difference and
be heard without taking to the streets. And then how

(01:28:39):
heartbroken they feel when there's this small slice of them
who end up getting the camera shined on them when
they're doing when they're when they're when they're you know,
defacing or destroying things, and that isn't what the majority
were there to say or do, And they didn't want
to make the point in that way. You know, if
you go down that road and then you have people watching,

(01:29:00):
a lot of them are gonna be like, this is
a really dumb down, caricaturized version that's meant to scare people,
that doesn't really tap into what was really happening on
the streets of America in the streets of the world
over the past two three months. And I think that
could be a big turnoff not only to viewers, but
it could end up backfiring when it comes to sponsors
and USA Network and Fox trusting them. So it's just

(01:29:20):
dangerous territory to travel. I think people tune into wrestling
shows to escape and not have to take sides on
something that has become polarizing that people feel so emotionally
charged about. And I think a lot of times in
situations like this, there's a side that feels that they've
been misrepresented and turned into a caricature for political purposes,

(01:29:42):
and the last thing they want to do is tune
into a wrestling show that bought into the caricaturization and
the out of context isolation of things that don't represent
what they stand for and what the majority are really
trying to do and the methods they're using, and then
see that being exploited in a way that makes them
feel mark generalized or not heard all over again, when
all they're trying to do is tune into a wrestling

(01:30:03):
show to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
And absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:30:09):
And the thing is, it's like the w w E
as a whole, Vince McMahon especially, they have absolutely no
credibility to.

Speaker 2 (01:30:20):
Do this the right way.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
So you know, I I think they've really they got
to be careful because I mean they could have, you know, whatever,
the greatest angle ever cooked up. But if it if
it doesn't play well, you know, kind of in the
in the within the framework of the world right now
and the environment and what's going on, like it's it's.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
It's gonna it will rub people the wrong way. I
can almost guarantee that, and deservedly so too.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Yeah, there's so many stories you can tell in wrestling,
and I'm not against using current events, but just be
sure you're you're you're you're being fair and it doesn't
come across the exploitative and it's not going to just
conjure up emotions that people don't want to relive from
a couple months ago if it's and if you do,
it'd be sure it's a main eventangle that's going to
really draw. You know, if you take this chance and

(01:31:11):
you step and you step in the wrong direction and
you pay a price and it was for a mid
card angle, you know, then you question it even more. Yep,
for sure, give yourself a reason to look forward to
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(01:31:32):
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(01:31:56):
Take a break from screen time and settle in every
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slash paper copy all right them next Joe from New

(01:32:25):
York says, way, this is by far the worst build
I've ever seen WWEDO for any pay per view. What
a shit build. I'm not even watching the product anymore.
I just listened to your postgame shows on Ron SmackDown
to keep up. I've been a fan of wrestling since
nineteen ninety one, and they just give me no reason
to watch. Nothing Vince is doing is gonna make me
or any other fan that left come back. Vincent Matt

(01:32:46):
is not even trying anymore. Where's the effort from Vince? NWWE?
How is it that Summer Slam can suck this bat?
How do you feel, Joe? Do you believe USA Network
and Fox are happy with the current product? Because if
they are happy with the product, these people should be
removed from their spots because they have no problem acknowledge
if they're happy with what WWE's presenting. Deep breath, Wait,
I went VIP after years of listening to on the

(01:33:06):
Stone Cold podcast and all of your free shows. Thank
you very much for making it easier to go vip.
With just a credit card. Keep up the good work.
I appreciate your effort. You're a real fan. Thanks Joe. Yeah,
we introduced we incorporated Stripe payments so you can sign
up securely, encrypted, safely. We never see your credit card
information right on our simplified, shortened VIP sign up form.

(01:33:30):
You can still use PayPal if you've got a PayPal
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and then at your credit card information click send. Boom,
You're in and it's just it's a it's everything is
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just had a bad experience with PayPal or whatever, you

(01:33:51):
just want to use your debit card, that is all
set up and Joe did it and you can too.
So PW Torch dot com slash go VIP. It's worked
out great for us so far. Are I did a
test to sign up and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
this is what I've always wanted the Torch to be
when it comes to signing up. This easy.

Speaker 2 (01:34:08):
The site looks amazing too.

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
Oh thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's been fun giving it
a refresh. It's every you know, three to five years,
we try to, you know, give it a refresh, and
I'm really happy with what we've done. So check it
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(01:34:32):
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things up. So a lot of cool stuff. If you've
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a while, come on back. If if you aren't facing
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business in times like this, with the ad market being
what it is, is hopefully a double bonus for you.
You get a great, great product that you get to
support hardworking small business too. Okay, well, anyway back to

(01:34:54):
his question here, do you think USA and Fox are happy?
I mean, that is a difficult, cold question because you know,
ra's drawn the lowest ratings it's ever drawn. I don't
think it's what USA and NBC Universal were hoping for
a year ago. Yet it's a pandemic. They don't have crowds.
The you know, wrestlers are taking extended time off, you know,

(01:35:15):
either because they test positive for COVID or they've been
around somebody who had it and they need to quarantine.
And you have all that going on, and then you
have sports not on television, and wrestling pushed through when
sports shut down. So you know, FS one is happy
to have WWE as a partner in the Fox family
so they can put all these shows on Tuesday nights

(01:35:36):
to help fill out their vacated empty schedule. And they're
still one of all three hours of raw consistently are
on the top ten. Usually one or two of the
hours are in the top five, and then you know
there's you know, the rest are six or seven in
the eighteen to forty nine adult demo, which is the
main demo that advertisers seek and and covied in that
network's track. So there's still a top top five, six,

(01:35:59):
seven eight show on Monday nights among all cable shows.
They're you know, beating NHL and NBA a lot of
the time, even at this level. So, I mean, it
depends on how you define happy. I mean, I think
they're at the bottom end of what is tolerable, but
yet given the circumstances and that it's still a top five,
top seven show. Again, maybe they feel the overpaid, but

(01:36:23):
it's a fifty two weeks a year, solid, reliable, top
demographic show for its night on cable at a time
when it's really tough to get new viewers with so
many streaming networks pulling people away. So, Zach, what's your
feeling on it? And am I framing things too generously
when it comes to WWE or do you think I'm
being too hard on them because it's amazing with everything

(01:36:44):
going on the past, you know, a handful of months
with the pandemic that you know they deserve some credit for.
You know, say what you will about the safety issue,
whether they should be doing shows, but the fact that
they've retained based on the trajectory of where they were going.
You know, they've only lost roughly ten percent, give or take,
of their audience compared to where you would have expected
them to be based on where ratings were in December, January,
and February. Do they deserve more credit and less criticism

(01:37:06):
than they seem to get?

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
No, I think I think the amount of criticism they
get is pretty probably you know, pretty on party, pretty
pretty accurate. I think, you know, you're really talking. I
think to answer the question, is USA happy like it?
It encompasses so much and like so I'll just say
that I think they are, you know, and maybe I'm

(01:37:32):
going to eat my words in four years, but when
they have to renegotiate the deal or three years or
whatever it is. But you just look at the landscape,
and I think the key thing that sticks out in
my head is always not necessarily the ratings, because we
know the ratings are going down and they're they're slowly
chipping away. That's happening with with most you know, cable

(01:37:55):
television shows at this point.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
But what sticks in my head is where they fall
in relation to everything else.

Speaker 3 (01:38:03):
And I think as long as they keep like in
that top five occasionally six or seven on good weeks,
you know, during WrestleMania season, they are consistently in the
top five, I mean, if they stay there, USA Network
is gonna ask themselves like Okay, like sure is this
are these huge ratings and are the actual numbers going down?

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:38:25):
But what what else is out there that we can
bring in that's gonna do this for us? And I
think that's when they look around and go, well, there's
not much. There's not much else. I mean, there's you know,
it's just a it's a it's a different world. And
I think if you're USA, I mean, I think you're
happy with top five, you know, and sometimes higher than that.

(01:38:46):
For as bad as the product can be at times,
you know, you got to assume that the executives at
the USA network aren't you know, aren't critiquing these shows
like we are right now. That's just I just I'm
assuming that that that's that's not happening at that level.
They want the numbers to be solid, they want the
advertising rates to be as high as they can be.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):
And they don't want to lose you know, viewership in droves.

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
And I think if on a very simplistic level and
looking at this, and obviously you can go down you know,
deeper rabbit holes than this, those boxes are all are
all checked, and so for better or worse, I look
at that scenario and say, you know, there's not there's
not a ton to be all that unhappy about, especially
now during the pandemic.

Speaker 2 (01:39:32):
And maybe I'm being too nice. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
Well, I think you know, when you watch the show
where you're like, they could be better off than they are,
but it's but it's not. It's just it's not a
ratings disaster. I mean, what's happening in cable television is
a ratings disaster because the world's changing, you know. I mean,
you know, when you turn your TV on, it's it's more,
you know, if you're up to speed with technology, it's
more about the apps. You know, It's like, oh, do

(01:39:55):
I want to watch YouTube TV or Sling or do
I want to go to Pluto and watch something kind
of weird and quirky for free? Or do I want
to open up Netflix or Hulu or do I go
to HBO Max or Disney Plus or should I check?
You know, it's like it's so different and then you
have you know, just like foubou and I mean all
these like movies channels or you can just deep you
just do this random rabbit hole diamond of movies. You
didn't even know existed that like, it's not about flipping

(01:40:18):
channels anymore. It's not even about looking at the TV
channel guide and sort of happening upon something that is
airing in a linear way. And that is how people
discovered wrestling. Now people are discovering pro wrestling because their
friends saw clip on YouTube or their big brothers said
hey watch this.

Speaker 6 (01:40:34):
Or you know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:35):
And so people aren't necessarily who are fans of WWE
being monetized in the same way, and they're not necessarily
settling in for a two or three hour show. And
if they are, they've probably got their tablet and they're
they're talking with their friends, you know, if they're young,
and if they're or old for that matter, they probably
got their tablet or their laptop on, they're checking their smartphone.

(01:40:56):
It's just a different world. And I don't think it's
the dust has settled at all on or I don't
think we know where things are are headed. But my
point in all that is, if WWE was doing a
great job, ratings would not be what they were three
years ago, worth six years ago. In fact, they'd be
way worse than anyone thought they could be five or
three years ago. Because that's just the way things are

(01:41:16):
going right now with with with television. So it's going
it's it's gonna be a lot different than three to
five years the way that they I mean, I just
saw a headline today like the last Blockbuster store is
you know, being rented out or something. I can't like.
There's yeah, so there's one left. You know, there's no
guarantee that this cable juggernaut institution that is Monday Night

(01:41:38):
Raw is gonna still be a three hour, huge revenue
generator for WWA. And you know, now they've got a
new president of the company who's going to be dealing
with a lot of big questions. I also wrote a
Keller's Take editorial on this last week, and with the
idea being, you know, this is a job that looks
a lot different today than it did did six months

(01:42:01):
ago because of the pandemic. So this new president, Nick
con Wrestling's being taken over by cons. He's gonna you know,
he's in his forties, he's pals enough with Triple A
Sho to be invited to his fiftieth birthday party last summer.
He's got a whole different set of of parameters and
opportunities and hurdles then I think Michelle Wilson and George

(01:42:24):
Barrios were dealing with a year and two years ago
when they were planning things out. So I just you know,
it's a long winding road about, you know, whether the
networks are happy with the ratings or not. I think
the networks are just worried about existing in three years,
so they'll take what they can get. And would they
be better off if Ron SmackDown were a better product
and they had more breakout stars and they had laid
the groundwork three years ago to be in a better

(01:42:45):
position today, of course, but if they were doing everything
quote right as subjective as right is, I think there's
an objective way to evaluate if they're on the higher
loan end of that, and the answer is if they
were doing better, people would be looking at the ratings
going what are they doing wrong? Because I think the
best case scenario for viewership is still a sharp drop
off from two, three, four years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:43:07):
Yeah, they're really they're two totally different questions, like looking
at the ratings and trying to figure out like how
the product impacts whether or not the USA network is happy,
really two totally different conversations because like you said, I mean,
without question, WWE can be doing better. But if they
were doing fifty percent better, would the rating be fifty
percent higher?

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
Probably not. And like that's why I think it's now.

Speaker 3 (01:43:31):
WWE could be healthier as a company if they were,
if they were doing better, they could have higher network subscriptions,
more interest in the product, you know, better storylines, better loyalty.

Speaker 1 (01:43:41):
In the non pandemic setting.

Speaker 2 (01:43:43):
Yeah, yeah, right, and like all that comes along with it.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):
But if you just carve out like that, that the
ratings and just like that TV, I mean, I think
that's a it's a tough argument to make that USA
Network is over there banging their heads against the wall,
wondering why we spent all this money on this because
I just don't know that that story is.

Speaker 2 (01:44:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:44:07):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past Cast. Every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed, Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.

Speaker 4 (01:44:25):
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all.

Speaker 11 (01:44:28):
The happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time,
as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the
nineties pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily
Cast feed.

Speaker 1 (01:44:52):
Let's jump next to another Joe, this one in Peck
in Illinois. I feel AW should cancel the Orch Cassidy
christierical match scheduled for dynam this week. Jericho's reckless behavior
puts the entire AW roster at risk, not to mention,
allowing Jericho to compete sends a terrible message to the
rest of the roster. If we're ever going to get
this virus under control, everyone's got to do their part,
and that includes big name talents such as Chris Jericho.

(01:45:16):
So for context, Chris Jericho defended himself. He ran you
know Fozzy concert. He said, we were tested, we were
social distancing from the audience. The audience wasn't wearing masks,
and a bunch of people are gonna get COVID from
that who would not have otherwise. And but yet the
defense from Jericho is, well, we're on a bus and

(01:45:37):
we've been tested, and we didn't get around those people
that we then gathered and who are now infecting each other.
I don't know enough to know, And I'm curious Zach
your take on what you've read if if you think
Jericho himself is at risk and that's the concern, or
is the concern just more the irresponsibility of gathering crowd

(01:46:00):
that was that quote, fifty percent capacity, but just right
next to each other, you know, pushing up against the stage,
a lot of them without masks. If the idea more
is just the principle of the matter, you know, why
did you do that and make things worse when we
should be delaying this kind of gathering, you know, for
for months and months down the line. When when when
the all clear siren has sounded.

Speaker 2 (01:46:23):
Yes, there actually is a siren, if that's what you're Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:46:27):
It was a sub subliminal suggestive message that that clicked.

Speaker 3 (01:46:30):
Yeah, yes, of course, the one ambulance is gonna wait
till we're recording the show to drive by.

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
My house's Yeah, it's cool. I mean, I'm sure people
listening in their car, like am I being pulled over
and then like they hit the back fifteen second back
button like oh no, that was on the podcast. Good
And by the way, this idea the defense, Well, we
went to North Kaota, South Dakota where the infection rates
are low. Guess what, everywhere the infection rates are high.
They were low until things like this happened, and then

(01:46:56):
they shot up. So you know, like this defense of
well we're okay because there were less than a thousand
in both states, Well, guess what when you do stuff
like that, that that's when the infections have a good
chance of going way up if they were doing things right.
The snots used to go in there and do things wrong.
And I mean, there's no way you can look at
that crowd and say, yeah, that was don right.

Speaker 3 (01:47:19):
No, I mean that yeah to me, like, that's just
that's a completely ridiculous rationalization of the of the situation,
Like not not only are there? Does it not make sense? Yes,
sure there's low cases there, but all the people that
were in that in that at that concert, they're not
all from there, you know, they're that that event. It
attracts people from all over the country, like the Sturges event.

Speaker 1 (01:47:43):
So yeah, and he said they handed out masks at
the door. But you know what you can say is
stand six feet apart or cluster with people you at
least came with, and if anyone isn't wearing a mask,
we're shutting on the show. You know, I mean like
if and I say that because if if Jericho just
doesn't believe masks are necessary for an outdoor concert, then
say that and own it and deal with the ramifications

(01:48:04):
of people disagree with you. But if you are saying
as a defense, while we handed out mask, well, it's
a good of handing out masks. If you're defending well,
masks were necessary, we think that's helpful. That's why we
ran the show. Because we gave away masks. Well, people
choose not to wear them again. The mask wearing isn't
to help yourself. It's more to help the people around you.
So if you're wearing a mask and someone around you isn't, well,
you know, in a sense you're tempting faid by going

(01:48:25):
to one of these things in the first place. But
the people are going to go to something like this
in the first place. They're young and healthy, not realizing
they can be asymptomatic and spread it to somebody who
is vulnerable. And that's the cascade, to use a word
of the show, that's a cascading effect of this is
someone you know indulges in something that they you know,
defend for their own health and not realizing that. You know,
there's going to be people at that event who end

(01:48:47):
up with COVID, don't know they have it, and give
it to somebody else because they all gathered for an
extended period of time close up with people. So the
idea we handed out masks but a bunch of people
aren't wearing it makes the whole we handed out masks
thing rather irrelevant. It's like, well, their receipt belts nobody
wore them. Well, then you know, maybe that's a problem
that you had the power to deal with.

Speaker 3 (01:49:05):
Yeah, I mean I just think I think it's really
irresponsible for him to do it and then, you know,
defend it the way that he did. Like I just
I don't know, I just really watching that. I just
was just kind of rolling my eyes and hand to
the forehead like it's just and it really has nothing
to do with I mean, obviously I want Jericho to

(01:49:28):
be safe and healthy and of course, but it's not
really about him being safe. It's just about hey, man,
like you're the you're the lead singer of this band,
You've got some notoriety, you're a public figure in a
lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (01:49:41):
Like you don't need to be doing this.

Speaker 3 (01:49:43):
You don't need to be doing this show, and it's
more impactful for you given your stature and and the
notoriety that you have to stand up and say, hey, look,
you know, we're not not doing these shows right now,
you know, or we're going to do them for you know,
at twenty percent capacity and nobody's gonna by the stage
and you got to be six feet apart, you know,

(01:50:03):
with masks like and that's if you absolutely have to
do it. I think if you're Chris Jericho and you're
the talent in that situation, like you know, everybody knows
he doesn't have a problem throwing his weight around, like,
so do it. Do it, but do it for the
right reasons and not to and for the good of
for the good of everything, and for the good of
you know, attacking this virus and trying to calm it down,

(01:50:25):
not to try to secret by so everybody can have
a good time at a at a concert.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
It was really disappointing to see.

Speaker 3 (01:50:31):
And again, I obviously I hope you know, he's safe
and healthy and everybody there too, but it's just one
of those things where it's like it's tone deaf. It
really felt tone deaf to me, and the nicest of
terms to put it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:45):
And you know, you can go. You can spray paint
circles in the grass that are six feet apart. They
can be big circles or small circles. You stay with
the people you arrived with. Everybody wears a mask. If
somebody doesn't wear a mask, the show gets shut down,
you get taken out of the building, and you get
ostracized for screwing up a concert that everyone was a joying.
I mean, it is possible to do that. Now you say,
well that takes all the fun out of it, well, okay,

(01:51:07):
then don't do it. I mean, if the only way
to do it is to have people standing in spray
painted circles it, you know, in an outdoor concert, you know,
six eight feet apart from each other wearing masks. If
you can't deal with that compromise, but that's the only
truly safe way not to end up having a cascading
effect that leads to sick and dead people, then don't
do the concert, or you know, do do it. Do

(01:51:28):
it over the internet or something, and you know, we
can wait till next summer for this stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:51:32):
Yeah, I think that's just a I don't know, fortunately
a common thing. Well, it's like, well that's no fun.
It's like, well, yeah, like none of this is fun. No,
I mean, that's that's the whole point.

Speaker 1 (01:51:41):
It wasn't fun going to it. It wasn't fun. My
grandpa who fought on the Battle of the Bulge, it
wasn't fun. It wasn't getting fun shot in the lake
and becoming a pow. But he got shot in the
lake and he was a prisoner of war and he
came back and he was part of fighting for free.
That wasn't fun. And you know people whoa, this isn't war,
this is just about freedom and all that. It's like,
it's it, I don't know anyway. I mean, this is

(01:52:03):
not a big sacrifice. It's a sacrifice. It's not fun.
And there is absolute hardship that is resulting from the
fact that we're having to shut down a lot of
the economy. But we got to do it right for
a few months so we can get past it. And
we keep building the bridge halfway and then walking on
the bridge and it collapses and we all, well, well,
let's build the two thirds of the way. Oh it collapses. Well,
you know, I want the freedom to walk over the river.

(01:52:25):
Well we got to take time to build a bridge
all the way across.

Speaker 9 (01:52:27):
And right, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
And I think too, it's like, you know, Jericho Bean
in aw and aw Bean the company that he works
for and that he's one of the faces of. It's
like I think people looked towards that company to really
be the the other side of the pendulum. Then WWE,

(01:52:49):
you know, in terms of how they act about a
lot of multitude of things, you know, diversity, women, you know,
a multitude of states, and WWE has their his of
doing things, their their way, and they're they're rooted in
that tradition and they've got all the baggage that comes
along with it. And then when you see kind of
you know, Jericho take that tone around it, it's just

(01:53:11):
like it just kind of makeshift.

Speaker 2 (01:53:13):
I don't know, it just makes you.

Speaker 3 (01:53:14):
Furl your brow a little bit and go, man, that's
not you're not representing the company the way that a
company presented itself.

Speaker 1 (01:53:21):
Aw is marketing itself implicitly as anti WWE, anti vincent Man,
anti big corporation that isn't a prog wrestling company that's
fan friendly. And you know Jericho, you know he's he's
made some missteps politically, and you know, all lives matter
and that and that kind of thing. It's just like
you you're not getting it. And you're smart enough and

(01:53:44):
rich enough and in a position where you should be
taking the time to understand this enough to know that
that's not helpful. And you know, it's just the idea
of well, we want to have our fun and those
people had fun, and I'm just going to bury my
head and and and not pay attention to the science
and the sense of this, you know. And it's like,
well it's outdoors, Well get where were Where were the bathrooms?

(01:54:04):
Or people wind up to go to bathrooms? Did they
go inside something to go to the bathroom. That's where
the that's where someone coughs without a mask and it
floats in there, and then you go in there and
you spend two minutes or twenty minutes spending what you're
up to and and you're in there with it. It's
like it's not just about the beaches. It's about people
who aren't at home and what do they do on
their way to the beach and when they needed to
go to the bathroom or get a refreshment. There's all

(01:54:26):
these things that I think people just aren't thinking about.
And just about every other industrialized countries figured this out, yep.
And and and you know a lot of people haven't
in this country. And anyway, people don't want to be
preached too. They either agree or they disagree or whatever.
But I've got my point of view, you got yours,
and obviously Jericho as his and he's I think deservedly
taking heat for it, and I think it makes say

(01:54:46):
it would be look bad. And now the question is
should the match be canceled?

Speaker 3 (01:54:52):
Well, no, I mean, I mean I no, I don't
think you should be canceled. I mean mainly just because
I think if you if you test Chris Jericho and
you know, he passes the tests that that he needs
to pass and they're they're negative, Like, I don't think
there's anything else you can do at that point. If

(01:55:13):
you're gonna decide to run shows, different conversation. But if
you're gonna if you're gonna run shows, and that's what
you're gonna do, and that's the decision you make, and
your talent comes there and tests negative, Like there's really
no other road you can.

Speaker 2 (01:55:26):
You can go down, and I gotta do it.

Speaker 1 (01:55:28):
Jericho, Jericho could have put on that concert, stood on
the stage, been far enough away from anybody else. Everybody
who he was with was tested. He did he had
a had a bus with a bathroom on it, and
everybody he was around was tested or wear Matt. It's like,
the point isn't that he's likely infected. I don't know
what he did. I don't know all his conduct. Maybe
he hung out at the bar with his with his

(01:55:49):
vans for hours and drank and did shots and was
sitting around the table with people coming up to him
and breathing in his face and coughing and getting his autograph.
I don't know that. I hope he didn't do that.
But if he didn't do any of that, he had
she could have done what he did and be safe.
That's not the problem. The problem is instigating a gigantic
gathering of people who were clustered and pushed up against
the stage in a state where there isn't a lot

(01:56:09):
of COVID, which makes it not better. You could make
a case it makes it worse because now you've increased
the chance that that state that avoided a lot will
now have it. But we're about to go to a
commercial break. Why let's say to commercial breaks when you
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(01:56:30):
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listening experience with a VIP or Patreon membership. Let's see here,

(01:56:58):
Jacka and Swansea says, hey, Waite and Zach. I want
to say before I ask my question, I thought Zach
did a great job hosting the Post show the other week.
Very much enjoyed it. You had some very big shoes
shoes to fill. I've emailed Wade a lot over the
last few months to say how much I've enjoyed Bailey
and Sasha. Now, this Battle Royal has got me thinking,
does a legend come in for a big match against Bailey,
A Trish Alita, a Beth Phoenix or maybe Mickey James,

(01:57:20):
Or do we get an NXT wrestler who comes very
close to winning the title. I don't think Bailey should
lose the title yet, and I would love this story
to continue to wrestle Mania. Also with Sasha, what do
you think the chances are of her retaining are I'm
a huge fan, but I think her failing to retain
her title in her first defense would play off the
history of her in her title reigns, and that could
actually be a good story. Well, let's ask sasho she

(01:57:40):
feels about that. How long do you think they can
pull this story off for? And who ends up with
a gold after Summer Slam. Thanks guys, stay safe, don't
go to concerts outdoors, don't go to fu the concerts.
He didn't say that, but yeah, so number of things there,
kind words.

Speaker 3 (01:57:57):
For you, Zach, and then yes, thank you very much.
Appreciate that a lot. Uh and uh they just yeah,
they do have big shoes to fill, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:58:05):
Thank you did a great job, and it's it's fun.
How much fun you're having doing it too, And I
think people can can pick up on that too.

Speaker 2 (01:58:12):
It is a blast.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
But it absolutely is a blast and you know it
it also you know, it's it is different than being
a co host to this run run and run.

Speaker 12 (01:58:22):
It is.

Speaker 2 (01:58:23):
It is different, but it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (01:58:24):
Yeah, there's a lot to think about and it's and
it's different watching a show knowing five minutes after it
ends you have to be all set up and coherent
and coordinated with a co host, having the switchboard up,
keeping track calls, keeping track emails, on and on and on. Yeah,
you know, it's it's it's it's different than you know,
waiting a couple of days and and and uh letting
your thoughts sink in, you know. So there's an adrenaline

(01:58:47):
rush aspect to it. But but that's kind of what
makes it fun.

Speaker 2 (01:58:50):
Absolutely and I appreciate it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:58:53):
Uh so, yeah, should a legend win a battle oil,
should an NXT wrestler, you know, win it and get
close to winning? Like, where do you think they're headed?
We had James show up last night.

Speaker 2 (01:59:02):
Yeah, honestly, it should have crossed my mind. The legend thing.

Speaker 3 (01:59:06):
I you know that that is intriguing to me now
that that's kind of on the table, and that's one
of those things that just didn't pop in my brain
about about this, but that that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 (01:59:18):
I mean, not only does it.

Speaker 3 (01:59:19):
Enhance Summer Slam a little bit if it's the right
you know, if it's the right person, I think it
makes Summer Slam feel like the second biggest show of
the year if you've got your stratus there, or you
have a leader there.

Speaker 2 (01:59:32):
Or you know, even a Mickey James. I think would
would would would play just fine.

Speaker 3 (01:59:36):
So yeah, And I also think that Bailey's at that
point right now where she doesn't have like, you know,
a logical next opponent onun SmackDown.

Speaker 2 (01:59:44):
She's kind of, you know, been through most of the.

Speaker 3 (01:59:48):
The baby faces on that show, and I don't I
don't know that anybody's really, like outside of Nikki Cross
maybe is primed to face her. So when you look
at that, really the options kind of our NXT and
and some sort of some sort of legend and I
kind of I'm down on the NXT idea just because
I think.

Speaker 2 (02:00:08):
It's too soon to take the belt off Bailey.

Speaker 3 (02:00:10):
I think she's like the business that's on the table
right now that they're The story that they're telling is
to get to a big match between Sasha Banks and
Bailey down the road at a WrestleMania and.

Speaker 2 (02:00:21):
To do that, I think she needs she needs that belt.

Speaker 3 (02:00:24):
And so I don't know that you want to bring
in one of your top NXT women to come in
and just do a job to her right away and
then and then go away or be immediately defined as
less than Bailey on on SmackDown. I think that that
would hurt somebody like in Neosharai or really any of those,
any of those women. So yeah, I think of those
two options, get you know, give me the legend. I

(02:00:47):
mean that it makes sense. I think Bailey can promo
against against that really well. Talk about how she's you know,
the longest reigning Smacked Down Women's champion in history, She's
got all these titles, she's the tag team champion. I
think that kind of writes it self at a time
where Bailey doesn't have much else on deck.

Speaker 2 (02:01:05):
So yeah, I'm going with that option.

Speaker 1 (02:01:08):
Javier had a question on top of that, I'll add
to this conversation. He said, what do you think of
Oscar joining the Battle Royal and winning to face both
Bailey and Banks, making it a triple threat at SummerSlam.
So I throw that into the mixture. I remember him
emailing that last night. You know that would put Sasha
against Bailey at SummerSlam, not a one on one. They

(02:01:32):
could have an advantage that may or may not work you.
Osca enters and wins, so she sort of hogs both
title shots and it's sort of a I guess a
in theoryo winner take all depending on who pinned whom.
I don't know. Do you throw is that something that
that you like or don't like the idea of or

(02:01:53):
do you think they might be going that way now
that it's been pitched.

Speaker 2 (02:01:56):
Yeah, I don't think they're going that way.

Speaker 3 (02:01:58):
I think they're really I think I think right now
in this era, you know, Vince sees Sasha and Bailey
as as important acts on his shows, both of them,
and I think with that in mind, I think he
believes that they need to be on the biggest show
of the year in their own matches, holding down and
helping hold down the whole card.

Speaker 2 (02:02:19):
And so I think if you you dilute that a
little bit if you put them into one match.

Speaker 3 (02:02:22):
So that's one thing, then the other thing is, you know,
I think you want to save that the big physical
encounter between Sasha Banks and Bailey from when you're gonna
kick the feud off. You know, I think if you
do it too early and you have them fighting each
other in the in this triple threat match, that makes
the whatever turn they do or whatever kind of you know.

Speaker 2 (02:02:46):
Ignition that they do to the to that feud, it
makes it kind.

Speaker 3 (02:02:49):
Of just a little bit weaker because we've already seen
them fight each other.

Speaker 2 (02:02:53):
I think you want to save that moment for all.

Speaker 3 (02:02:55):
Right now we're going to Sasha Banks and Bailey, and
I think you want to hold that off for his
life long as possible, until you want to pull the
trigger on that. And I think it wouldn't kill the
feud or anything like that, but I think it's it's
always better when you can hold that physicality off until
there's a real time for them to do it and
within the within the story.

Speaker 13 (02:03:22):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling, we'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events. Dictate and I'm Chris Lansdowe.

Speaker 8 (02:03:35):
Join us as we covered the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they navigate an era with no lack
of talent. But I really need to create some news
styles you can stream then you seven stop podcast now
from Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
All right, let's probably wrap up with this one. Darren
in Massachusetts says, can you please explain why no one
came to the aid of her mysterio Sun Dominic when
he was getting slaughtered by two men with sticks which
seemed like a half hour, Or why no one came
to save Rick Flair while Orton was taking his sweet
time setting him up for a kick to the head.
Of all the problems with W be Creative, the one
thing that bothers me the most is is this complete

(02:04:22):
lack of caring from anyone in the Babyface locker room.
I understand ray Alister Black and Uberto were all hurt
while Dominic was getting killed, but where are the Drew
McIntyres of the world, or the Kevin Owens or even
Apollo w W wants fans get behind these guys, but
they all come across as self obsessed jerks when none
of them could be bothered to help a sympathetic baby
face in danger. I remember random mid card baby faces
like the British Bulldogs and hacksa dug and rushing to

(02:04:43):
Holk Coogan's aid when he was getting choked by and
Ary on Saturday Night's Made Event, or brus Beefcake randomly
stopping Randy savagees beat down a Hogan in the locker
room a year ago. These characters were not involved in
those storylines at the time, but it made logical sense
that they would help their friend, as that's what any
decent person would or should do in that situation. Nowadays,
logic is sorely lacking, and as a result, it feels
like my intelligence is being insulted and my time is

(02:05:05):
being wasted every time I watch, which is much less
often than ever. Thanks for reading my email and keep
up the great work. His email was titled the Extinction
of Sympathetic Babyfaces. I will also throwing Javier. In that
other email, he said Joe couldn't get involved. He said
he was handcuffed, But where the hell was the rest
of the roster? Where it was security? The beatdown lasted?

(02:05:26):
What an hour? It's your felt that way to Dominic?
I bet so?

Speaker 2 (02:05:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:05:30):
Is this anarrea where we got to suspend our disbelief
and just believe while you know, wrestlers are you know,
doing photo shoots or coming in, you know, leaving the
building early or in the shower and don't know what's happening, Like,
is there a certain amount of latitude even if in
a past eras and other promotions, Babyface had been quick
to run out and make the save. Do you think

(02:05:52):
I'm sort of trying to be super you know, fair
minded to look at both sides of this. Do you
think a lot of people watching are thinking about it
in that way and that it's it's hurting them, hurting
their enjoyment of it as much as it is for Darren?
And is there a downside to just get into it
quicker and then having the baby Faces run out? Like
do are you just you know you can make the cases?

(02:06:13):
Extended beatdowns are just excessive and don't really there's diminishing
returns once you get past like the forty five second
to ninety second mark, when you would expect Babyfaces to
have been alerted to this and run out to save things.

Speaker 3 (02:06:26):
Anyway, Yeah, I feel like I'm certainly in the minority
with my opinion on this, and my opinion is, I mean,
I think the route is. I think there's a time
and a place for both both scenarios to happen. I
really think like we've seen times where you're like, yeah, geez,

(02:06:48):
this is like the fifth time in a row ex
wrestler has been beaten down by ex heel and they're
not and nobody's coming out, or if it's like you know,
some sort of announcer or something that's being terrorized by
heal and nobody backs them up. And I think that
there's a time and a place to have those, you know,
the baby faces run out and make the save.

Speaker 2 (02:07:06):
At the same time, though, I think you have to
have the creative leeway to.

Speaker 3 (02:07:14):
Get heat on heels when you need it, and you know,
in order to do that, some of these angles have
to take time. I think if if if Seth Rollins
is out there on Monday night and he hits dominic
with three kendo stick shots and then the baby.

Speaker 2 (02:07:30):
Faces run out, I mean, you don't get that intense.

Speaker 3 (02:07:33):
Emotion and passion that you had at the end of
it when he took what felt like one hundred and three.

Speaker 2 (02:07:40):
Stick shots. You just don't have that.

Speaker 3 (02:07:42):
You don't have that buying, you don't have that intensity.
It's not there. If it gets if it gets broken
up too soon. So I I that doesn't bother me
as much in certain situations because I think you wwe
has such a hard time getting heat on the heels
and I think when you've got something that's hot and

(02:08:02):
you have something that you think is gonna work, I
think you have to give it time for it to
breathe so that it can elicit the reaction that you
wanted to that you wanted to have. And I think
if you had a cavalcade of a babyfaces run out,
like you know, I think seth Roninds just kind of
becomes that, you know, the chicken shit heal again that

(02:08:22):
that just scurries away and laughs and that's it.

Speaker 2 (02:08:25):
And we see that on Raw all the time.

Speaker 3 (02:08:28):
But what he did was a lot more intense, and
I think it it it It made the feud hotter.
I think it put more sympathy on Dominic. I think
it made Dominic more interesting to see how he's gonna respond.
The TRMMO that he should cut next week should be
you know, can't miss can't miss television, So I give
them leeway on that. And then as far as the

(02:08:49):
Rick Flair angle, like I think you can, I think
you can reasonably buy that. Hey, you know, Drew McIntyre
wasn't sitting you know, three feet away backstage for to
make the save in two minutes. But once he caught
wind of what was going on and was able to
get out to the stage and run down the ramp
like that, he did, and he was there to kind
of to kind of break it up before it before

(02:09:10):
it got even worse. So I, yeah, I just I
think I may be in the minority on this, but
I you got to give some of these angles time
to breathe, even if it does mean kind of, you know,
putting some some logic aside in an effort to make
that happen.

Speaker 1 (02:09:28):
Yes, yep, very good, All right, Zach. We'll end the
Tuesday Mail Banker with the Way Keller Pro Wrestling podcast.

Speaker 2 (02:09:34):
There.

Speaker 1 (02:09:34):
We do have a few more email. I got a
bunch of more emails. We're going to get to a
few more in a VIP after show. We've gone long
and I've enjoyed it. We got some great emails, some
great conversation, but we got to wrap up the free
show at some point here. But I want to get
to these other emails everybody sent in and put that
into so we'll record a special VIP extra for our
VIP members tackling some other topics here. So if you're

(02:09:55):
a VIP member, just stay tuned. We'll tack it on
to the end of the ad free version of the
show on your VIP podcast feed. And if you're not
a VP, I'm ever go VIP and you can hear
us tackle some more emails here.

Speaker 2 (02:10:07):
Zach.

Speaker 1 (02:10:07):
Before we go, remind people how they can follow you
on social media.

Speaker 2 (02:10:12):
Yeah, thanks, Wade. It's at zaydorn.

Speaker 1 (02:10:14):
Torch z h E y d o r N Torch
and follow our brand at PW Torch. And then you
can follow me on Twitter at the Wade Keller Wrestling
and other stuff architecture, politics, funny videos, probably a funny
cat picture sometimes I don't know, so follow me there.
But at PW Torch our is our main Twitter follow

(02:10:35):
and of course our main website pw torch dot com.
Check out our new our new logo, fewer advertisements. Slicker layout.
I gave Sean Radikin because I was texting with him
when we were doing final approval on the on the
new logo, and I just sent to him and I said,
what do you think? And he's like, Oh, nobody's gonna
nobody's gonna dislike this, No one's everyone's gonna love it.
I was like, do you do you live in the

(02:10:57):
real world, Like, do you understand there's gonna be people
who just instantly don't like its? Well, I don't know.
He's like, I guess there'll be some people, almost no
one and like, I mean, someone listening to this now
is cann email and complain. But everybody has loved the
new look and the new logos, So if you haven't,
all the comments by email and on Twitter and all that,
it's been super positive, So thank you for that. We

(02:11:18):
put a lot of work into coming up with kind
of a new look and new vibe and streamlining the
layout to make it just more user friendly and take advantage.
And we just have more content now. We got new contributors,
we've got new features. We just put up a article
on that new aw action figures. We have a new
person reviewing some adotee secondary content on the network like
the Art Truth Game Show, and oh and then there

(02:11:39):
was a Sasha Banks the Day of Extreme Earl's Horse Show,
little mini documentary they put together, so we have a
review of that. We have more coverage of Impact Wrestling
than we have in a while. Our wage is going
to pick up again with them announcing they're they're doing
tapings later this month and so we'll get back to
our TV reviews with fresh matches soon. So anyway, check
it out pw torch dot com and of course we

(02:12:00):
at P members get the ad free version of it
with exclusive columns and content from the Progressing Torch newsletter
each week. All right, thanks everybody for joining us, And
tomorrow night after aw will be the post show, and
then Thursday will be our flagship and then over on
the Red Brand post show we'll have SmackDown. So a
lot more to go this week. But if you're still
craving more, check out the PW Torch Daily Cast, the

(02:12:21):
different format every day of the week with different hosts.
Just search PW Torch in your podcast staff or find
links on our website petewtorch dot com. Anytime you're watching

(02:12:44):
WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite in particular. Send
us an email if you've got thoughts on the show
or a topic you want us to address or a
question for us. Wadekellor Podcast at pwtorch dot com. Wadekellor
Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else going
on in pro wrestling that you want us to address
on our main podcast during our mailbank segments, that same

(02:13:05):
email applies Wadkeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. We invite
that interaction. Let us know what you think of what
we're saying, and let us know what you want us
to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wadkeller Podcast
at pw torch dot com. All right, now, we'll go
to some emails here for VIP members. In our VP

(02:13:28):
exclusive after show, we talked about Jericho and Sturgis in
the concert. VIAP member Ted from Sacramento emailed on that topic.
I'll just add that to the mix here. Wait, I
appreciate hearing your thoughts on a podcast about Chris Jericho
doing a concert in Sturgis and then appearing at Dynamite,
even if he takes a COVID test. Will it be
too soon after his appearance at a super spread or

(02:13:49):
event for it to come back positive. Doesn't this send
a bad signal to the AW locker room about being
cautious when they are not on site. Thanks, I'm a
huge AW fan, but am appalled by his actions. So
we'll see. I've I don't know quite what letter grade
to give Tony Khan as far as always handled the

(02:14:09):
pandemic and AW overall, there's times when you know they
get a good grade. There's times where I really doubt
that I doubt's not the right word, where I am disappointed.
And some of the decisions that were made that would
be so easy to make differently, including wrestlers brawling around
a crowd of civilians who aren't social spacing most of

(02:14:30):
most of them don't have masks, and it's just like why,
like how do you just how do you justify Oh,
it's updoors and they don't have symptoms. It's like, well, yes,
that everybody could say that, and that's why we're in
the situation we're in, so you know, so anyway, I mean,
we talked about that a lot, but I guess you know.
The idea of WOULD is is testing sophisticated enough if

(02:14:52):
he tests negative. I'm not an expert enough on the
test to know that. I would hope that Tony Khan
has people whose job at it is to know inside
and out the turnaround time and the reliability of a
test on relatively short notice like this. But you know,
we talk about goodwill. If aw delays that match, some
people will be upset because they're having to wait an

(02:15:15):
extra week. But I think some people will look at
that as as Tony kan doing the right thing. I mean,
they had Tony Shamani miss a show because his test
result wasn't in yet, but they assured us, you know,
it wasn't like he had a positive test. They've done
things that have been inconvenient, you know, including John Moxley
and maybe losing ratings one week so you know at
fight er Fest. So I they've done good things and

(02:15:37):
and it's it's built up goodwill. And then there's other
times where he just kind of you know, the palm
to forehead, like why would you do that? Or why
why are you allowing that to happen? So I don't
know what they do this week. I haven't heard either way,
but Jerico put him in a tough position.

Speaker 3 (02:15:50):
Yeah, I mean, I you know, if I'm Tony Kahan,
you know, I'm having a conversation with Chris Jericho about
this because not only does like he put all those
people that he was performing in front of at risk,
and not only does he put other AW stars at risk,
he puts that business at risk, you know, because if

(02:16:10):
they if he gets a test and it comes back
negative but really it's positive, and they find that out
and he's been around all those people and they've got
a problem like that, that puts the production at risk.
And that's you know, with with with Tony Kahan kind
of where they are, you know, and where AW is
right now in the momentum.

Speaker 2 (02:16:31):
That it has, that that would be a severe blow.

Speaker 3 (02:16:34):
And so you know, I'm definitely talking to Chris Jericho,
you know and saying, hey, man, what are you thinking here?
You know, be smarter than that, even if you're not
going to care about the virus itself, care about the business.

Speaker 2 (02:16:45):
Well, I hope be smarter.

Speaker 1 (02:16:47):
And the thing is is, I hope he would have
given him a heads up and you know there's something
you can plan out and say, well, let's not advertise
you for a match or an appearance. Let's pre tape
something last Wednesday, you know, quarantine yourself, get tested and
we'll we'll have you, you know, circle back in a
week or two if this is something that you really
want to do or that I can't talk to you
ot to doing. But yeah, you know, you know, if

(02:17:08):
I'm Orge Cassidy, I'm Orge Cassidy's family, I'm you know,
or the referee in charge of the match, you know,
I mean not everybody, not everybody you know has the
same level of concern. But you would think some people
who are going to be around Jericho might have have
a level of concern that I that I think would
be would be a healthy level of concern. So all right,

(02:17:30):
let's see. Uh Dave h oh No, I got a backwards.
His first name is is heightened? Is email misses me up?
So anyway, Hey, wait in Zac, do you think one
of the problems with Aw's ability to draw that second million,
as you say, is there lack of ability to do
house shows. Do you think that, assuming no pandemic, a

(02:17:50):
sustained house sholl schedule in smaller markets could help them
get their name be more mainstream or is there evidence
to suggest that it's not worth investing in house shows,
and he says, go v IP, thank you, Hitting Heighten.
Now I need a phonetic spelling. Now that I've gotten
your first name at least sort of right and not
completely wrong, give me the phonetics. It's a cool name though. Yeah, so,

(02:18:13):
Zach Caudy, how do you feel about the momentum lost
on multiple fronts? Would it help ratings to be out
there traveling the country bringing the show to the people,
creating a buzz, getting that local radio show appearance, the
you know, the local buzz from being in town and
word of mouth. Obviously they're hurt because a big part
of what made Dynamites so compelling to watch your leon

(02:18:33):
was just people showing up or somewhat of the product,
and it really gave them a huge advantage. They've lost
out on that. Fortunately, they had some momentum and already
established these acts before that, so there's sort of muscle
memory from viewers going, oh yeah, people love Orange Cassidy,
you know, and people react to the hug of the
best friends or you know whatever, So you know, the
sort of the bell where the fans kind of told
the more casual newer fans this stuff. You might not

(02:18:56):
get it, but we get it and it's cool and
you'll like it the longer you watch. So they lose
out on that. But would it has it hurt ratings
to not be able to do house shows? What do
you think?

Speaker 3 (02:19:05):
I think it's a it's a good point, you know,
I think there's an argument to be made there. With
that being said, there is you know, kind of a
proof of concept out there that says how shows aren't
necessarily you know, good for good for business. They cost
costs a lot of money to do. You know, it's
it's you don't get a ton of great returns on

(02:19:26):
them from a revenue perspective. But a lot of that
proof concept comes from from WWE, who has been running
house shows for gosh, I mean what thirty odd years
or something like that. Like so that's, you know, that's
a different situation than than a than AW. I know
that when AW was in Champagne, Illinois, uh for for

(02:19:47):
for a Dynamite show. I've got family that lives down there,
and they were they were texting me like, man, AW
in this town is hot right now. Everyone's talking about it.
The bars are planning on having you know, watch parties
for it. They're having buses that are going to drive
people from the bars over to the shows, and so
hearing that, you know they're not going to have that

(02:20:09):
with just a regular house show. But I still think
there's an argument to be made for if you were
out there a little bit more. Yeah, I think that's
going to attract some attention. It's to me, it's it's
a balance. You got to make it good for business,
and you got to pick your spots. But I think
if they're smart and strategic about how they pick their spots,
I think it could have a benefit on people just

(02:20:31):
finding out about the product in general, who might who
might not know.

Speaker 2 (02:20:36):
It might not be a big bump, but you know,
it's something to try.

Speaker 12 (02:20:46):
Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
your passion.

Speaker 11 (02:20:52):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking?

Speaker 12 (02:20:58):
Do you want to join a discussion on what AW
is doing right and what they could do to improve?
Then join me Joel and me Greg for the All
Elite Conversation Club every Friday on the pw torch Live
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Speaker 14 (02:21:10):
Search pw torch in your podcast app and subscribe to
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Speaker 1 (02:21:33):
I know Ho Cogan made that pitch to Dixie Carter.
You know, however, many years ago, we need to get
we need to take impact on the road, you know,
And they did every other week live with a tape
show at on site. And the idea was and I
interviewed Dixie on the show about that, and and you know,
she's like, yeah, you know, Hope, talk to me. We
need to get out and meet the people and that'll
help our ratings. And didn't help ratings and almost broke
the company because it was so expensive and they just

(02:21:53):
didn't have the fan base to or the infrastructure and
the marketing and all that to actually draw money in
these talents. Aw's a much better position than they were
at the time. But the argument then was, well, it'll
help if we go on the road, you know, because
we'll bring the show to the people. We'll be the hometown,
not some abstract you know, taped in Nashville or Orlando,
but actually a traveling show. And I don't know how

(02:22:15):
important that is anymore. I don't think it would make
a big difference myself, but aw I think reached a
tipping point in terms of popularity where they haven't if
they go to towns what you described I think happens
in a lot of those towns, so it would not
hurt I just I just wonder how many people, if
it would register enough market by market, I think it's

(02:22:37):
something where like in three years you're better off, but
I don't know over three months, if they would hit
enough towns and then enough people through the situation you described,
that would really make it a noticeable, statistically significant difference
in the ratings. So I think other things have been
at play that have led to you know, up and
down for them in viewership. But you know, I know

(02:22:58):
it's many CON's happy with where they are now, you
should be.

Speaker 3 (02:23:00):
So yeah, well it would be a significant like investment too.
I mean, if you make that decision, it's not something
that you can say, all right, we're gonna do it
for three months and see what happens. I mean, it's
got to be a thing where you're like, we're gonna,
you know, we're gonna run.

Speaker 2 (02:23:13):
Ten house shows or something.

Speaker 3 (02:23:14):
You know, it's for a long period of time because
that relationship takes a lot while to build.

Speaker 1 (02:23:20):
And also part of the attraction of aw for the
wrestlers is not having to work a bunch of shows.
You know, just exactly they get to work Wednesday. I mean,
did did Kenny sign up for that? Is he gonna
want to go?

Speaker 12 (02:23:29):
Is?

Speaker 2 (02:23:30):
Is?

Speaker 1 (02:23:30):
Are they just b shows without top talent? Are you
helping your brand if you know three out of the
top six stars aren't going. Are you Are you putting
at risk for injury while losing money by doing house shows?
I mean there's a lot of negatives that come from that.
Plus they going back to the same town over and
over for Dynamite. You know, you want good crowds at
these shows. Ideally you're selling out Dynamite if you start

(02:23:51):
burning out towns. I mean, there's a lot of negatives
in this, in this day and age of doing of
doing house shows. So I mean, I vote I'm not
again them touring in a strategic, smart, sort of curated
way to get some of the other some of the
wrestlers who need the work, ring work, ring work, and
you know you have one or two top stars cycle

(02:24:12):
in and then cycle out. But you know you don't
need unless Moxley wants to. You don't need Moxley. You know,
every weekend working in front of six hundred people at
a small venue or in front of three thousand people
at a medium venue.

Speaker 2 (02:24:25):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:24:25):
I mean there's some if you could. And the thing
is is Wednesday down and it doesn't make it easy
to do house shows either, because you know, do you
do Thursday and Friday house shows and then some people
on for the weekend. I mean, I guess you can.

Speaker 2 (02:24:39):
You're not going to run Monday Tuesday.

Speaker 1 (02:24:41):
Yeah, yeah, So anyway, all right, JB, another VP you
member here, says during the Randy Orton Rick Flair segment,
I got me thinking, is it possible that sometime in
the future we get a storyline where John Cena and
Randy Orton are both sixteen time champions vying to break
Rick Flair's record for a vacated title, with Rick Flair
involved in the storyline. I actually think this could be

(02:25:03):
incredibly compelling. Has always loved the show. Go vip staate P.
Thank you, Jab interesting. Yeah, they brought up the Orton
the number of title reigns, Sena's record, Flair's record, and
just bringing up Sena's name getting Orton red hot. I've
been thinking about Sena. You know, what would be the
best use of John Cena if he were to work

(02:25:25):
a WrestleMania in the next year or two. And I
don't think his career has taken off enough outside of
wrestling where he'd be like, well, he wouldn't bother with that,
and so you know, he doesn't need the money. If
he doesn't want to do it, he's not going to
do it. But if he is itching to do something,
Randy's a good, safe, legacy name to do it against.
It's a few people got so sick of because it

(02:25:46):
was their match with Solver done. But has it been
long enough? Is there a fondness now for it? And
if they each lined up with the same number of
title reigns and they're battling to break it, I mean,
that's an interesting scenario. I mean you can have various
scenarios to Sena Orton compelling just because Orton's been so
damn good lately and Sena has been so absent that
in a way it might feel fresh.

Speaker 3 (02:26:08):
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, the first thing that came to
mind when when the emailer brought up Randy Orton versus
John Cena, was exactly what you said, which is, oh, man, gosh, no,
it's it's we've seen that just too many times and
we have. At the same time, though, I don't you know,
when you look at possible opponents for John Cena, you know,
there's a handful of them that I think that I

(02:26:30):
think needs to happen. First, I think Drew McIntyre against
John Cena is something, you know, pretty compelling to kind
of help launch Drew.

Speaker 2 (02:26:37):
To the next level.

Speaker 3 (02:26:40):
So even but if you kind of get past that,
Randy Orton is an opponent for Scena, that makes sense
because he's he's safe.

Speaker 2 (02:26:48):
It's it's it's simple.

Speaker 3 (02:26:49):
You know, Orton can play his role well, John Cena
can do his thing, and they can just kind of
kind of go at it.

Speaker 2 (02:26:56):
And if they bring in the sixteen title thing, that
that does.

Speaker 3 (02:27:01):
Make a compelling story, not just between the two of them,
but just in like the history of wrestling in general,
like a seventeen time time champion never never been done before.
So I think just The nature of that alone makes
makes that more interesting than the typical Randy Orton versus
versus John cenis. So if they you know, look I don't,

(02:27:22):
I don't. I don't want them rushing, you know, to
get However, many more title reigns, Randy Orton needs to
make that happen. But if the stars align, I mean,
I think there's there's probably some money there.

Speaker 1 (02:27:33):
Yeah, I do too. I could be talked into that
being an attraction. I mean, it's a match. It feels
like the last time it happened, people never wanted to
see it again. But it's such a big part of
a big chapter of Dodbe's history, you know, I feel
like it could it could be a special attraction and
people would see it that way and not grown.

Speaker 3 (02:27:53):
Yeah, real quick, on on on Rick Flair mentioning that hit,
that that statistic yesterday, I did you get a sense
that he was kind of I don't know, in a
way kind of pooh pooing John Cena's sixteen titles, like
the way just.

Speaker 2 (02:28:08):
Kind of the way he said it.

Speaker 3 (02:28:09):
He's like, you know, my sixteen World champions, Like, I
don't know, I felt a sense of like a little
bit of a dig there, you know, at Sina from whoever.

Speaker 2 (02:28:18):
Wrote that or Vince or something. I felt like that
didn't seem nice to me.

Speaker 1 (02:28:23):
I didn't know what to make of it. I don't
I don't have enough of a read and I don't
have inside information to clarify or give insight on it.
But I'm glad you brought that up because I was like, well,
that's an interesting Why did he say that? Why did
he was that scripted?

Speaker 9 (02:28:39):
Was it not?

Speaker 1 (02:28:40):
You know, if it wasn't, did they probably didn't mind
it that much. But maybe somebody's like, what was that for?
And there's plausible deniability with Rick, Well, you know, what.

Speaker 2 (02:28:48):
Do you mean? I didn't mean thing by it, So yeah, yeah,
I thought it was I thought it was interesting.

Speaker 8 (02:28:52):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:28:55):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next level.
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(02:29:15):
everything with Rich Fan and the Fix with Todd Martin's
signature VIP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership.
So go vip here in twenty twenty two and enjoy
all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad
free listening experience. Pw torch dot com slash go vip
all right. Dodd Jacka from Swansea, Wales said, sorry, guys,

(02:29:36):
I forgot to ask my second question in the last email.
About a month back. I remember emailing you to say
about Alistair Black being written out of the show and
returning as a sting like figure who would stock Seth,
Rollins and Murphy. I've seen on social media Alistair posting
cryptic photos about his return. Do you think we'll see
a completely different Alistair when he returns, perhaps with a

(02:29:56):
darker side. Thanks guys. I thought it was a idea
at the beginning else for Black's perfect type of wrestler.
It would be totally believable he'd start showing up in
the rafters and having a different look and and trying
to spook Seth and and and Murphy. I like the idea,
and basically I mean disappearing like he has the way
that he did under those circumstances, and now you know,

(02:30:20):
you can interpret what he's doing on social media is
dropping some hints at it. Uh, I'm into exactly. I
think it's not. I think it's a good use of
It's better than him sitting at sitting alone talking about
knocking on my door. And you don't want to bring
back memories of that hit people and not this again.
Uh So you have to you have to do it
right with some of the baggage there. But I think
he could pull it off, and I think it might
be a good use of him.

Speaker 2 (02:30:41):
I think you can too. I think you can do it.

Speaker 3 (02:30:43):
And I also like that, you know, that gimmick shift
is not totally completely polar opposite to what he was
doing before. It's different, but it's not like so different
where he's walking down to the ring in a suit
as a means to freshen him up. This fresh him up,
but it keeps kind of the root character and the
root act the same. And I really like that that

(02:31:07):
part of the that part of the idea. And I
also think, you know, the absence makes the heart grow
fonder a little bit. I think he really kind of
at the end of the run there kind of got
ran down into the ground. Was kind of just he
was winning matches, yes, but they nothing was.

Speaker 2 (02:31:21):
Really going anywhere. This type of an.

Speaker 3 (02:31:24):
Angle against a top star like Seth Rollins kind of
launches him right back up into the upper the upper
mid card almost that main event level. It puts him
in a in a ready made feud that they've kind
of set the table for already. So I think it
makes a lot of sense, and I wouldn't be surprised
if we see that or something like it in the

(02:31:45):
near future.

Speaker 1 (02:31:46):
All right, Well, wrap up here with James in Clemson. Today,
I was scrolling through my PW Torch podcast page in
search of today's listening pleasure. I typically do not listen
to the hotlines or ass the editors. Hey, but the
title of one caught my eye today. It's titled is
Association with Insect Man costing NXT viewers against AW. I
just finished listening, and here are my thoughts. I've been

(02:32:07):
living this truth since AW came into existence. I consciously
do not watch NXT or anything associated with WWE, purely
for the fact that I do not support vinsic Man anymore.
When AW was first announced I canceled my WB network
subscription that day. I then sent an email to W
that stated the reason I was canceling. I told him
was because AW makes me feel like a fan again,
whereas WB makes me feel like an unimportant number. Of course,

(02:32:29):
nothing came to the email, but at least I tried.
Before AW, I was a day one network subscriber, I
tolerated the main roster's pay per views and lived for NXT.
My biggest problem with NXT now is the history they
built is gone. I was a huge Sammy's Ain fan.
I love Sash and Bailey in the early days, all
of which were ruined. Imagine if NXT today consisted of
all the old favorites, then you sprinkle on Adam Cole

(02:32:49):
or SHANEA. Basler. It'd be an entirely different conversation on Wednesdays.
But as we know, WB will always fail at capitalizing
on history. I just want to finish this email by
praising AW. I'm confident that in five years AW will
continue to reward me for being a loyal viewer as
much as they have in one year. I will stay
a loyal viewer and I will not watch n XT
or anything w B for as long as AW keeps
delivering me my fix. Oh and just to show him

(02:33:10):
not alone. I have one wrestling friend who lives near me.
He's exact same way. We go to shows all the
time together and had a chance to go to a
pretty stacked ron Greenville before the pandemic. We ultimately decided
not to go because we did not want to give
vinsic Man the twenty dollars it would have cost us
four seats. Yeah, any any response to that, Zach? The
vincement Man factor in AW support.

Speaker 3 (02:33:33):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I certainly can't sit here
and say that that it doesn't exist. I mean, clearly
it does, just by that by that email right there.
And I think I don't know that it's even just
you know, his his fingerprints on the product that that
turns people off. I mean, I know, you know, I've
talked to a lot of people, you know, the Saudi
Arabia stuff like That's that that was a big, a major,

(02:33:57):
a major thing that I think people made people think, Hey,
what what am I What am I supporting here?

Speaker 2 (02:34:03):
You know, and asking themselves that question.

Speaker 3 (02:34:06):
So I I I absolutely think it's probably a part
of reasons why people don't watch w W. I I
think certainly that's that's part.

Speaker 2 (02:34:17):
Of it for some people. I think there's other reasons
for for other people, just just like just like anything else.

Speaker 3 (02:34:23):
But you know, there's enough stigma around this big man
and and what he stands for at this point, and
and what you know he believes in and and and
and everything else. And that's not even you know, getting
into you know, his political allegiances and and Linda and
and they're they're you know, wrapped up in in and
the Trump stuff like and I think that opens up

(02:34:44):
a different can of worms. But but no, I think,
you know, it's I think he's pretty obvious that, yeah,
he's gonna be a factor for some people and not
for others.

Speaker 1 (02:34:54):
Excellent Zach, Thank you, appreciate you sticking around for the
VP after show.

Speaker 2 (02:34:58):
Absolutely Waite, thanks for having me. This was this was
a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 (02:35:01):
Yeah, and by the way, thanks to all the emailers
VP members, especially for sending in some good topics. I
love the mailback because it takes us place as we
would not think to go on our own. So thank
you for that. Wadekeller Podcast at Pewtorch dot com. Thanks
each yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:35:15):
Wait, thanks much. Hope to you again, students a.

Speaker 1 (02:35:17):
Blast, absolutely you bet. Invite you to email the show

(02:35:41):
with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is
Wade Keller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast
at pw torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter.
You can follow us on Twitter at pw torch and
follow me at the Wade Keller That's at pw torch
and at the Wave Keller.

Speaker 7 (02:36:02):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, you'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and itunic, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(02:36:24):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:36:33):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website, pwtorch dot com, daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown,
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 4 (02:36:57):
Meet an extra dose of positivity in your wrestle podcasts.
Will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Pterbo Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(02:37:18):
for restlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and Our
Eye Was There When shows where our guests will join
me to talk about a classic bout that they were.

Speaker 1 (02:37:32):
In attendance for.

Speaker 4 (02:37:34):
We love variety and you can expect lots of it
at the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW Torch VIP subscription information
and a list of all the VIP benefits is available
at pww torch vip info dot com and yes, all
VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone
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(02:37:56):
our ad free VIP mobile site.

Speaker 1 (02:37:58):
See you in the Paradise. One way that you can
help us sustain our schedule of putting out podcasts throughout
the week is by giving us a five star rating
on Apple Podcasts. Just go to Apple Podcasts and look
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Post show and give us a five star rating. We
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(02:38:21):
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Speaker 5 (02:38:38):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today on the Torch Vip
podcast NXT eight years back.

Speaker 13 (02:38:48):
We'll be taking a weekly look at this page.

Speaker 6 (02:38:51):
In NXT's early history. Join Kelly Wells and me Tom
Stout from PWT talks NXT every Saturday as we go
eight years back to the day to track NXT's rising
talents and why they did or didn't work out, exclusively
for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:39:07):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(02:39:30):
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(02:39:53):
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