5 YRS AGO PPV PREVIEW: Sam Roberts joined Wade to preview Summerslam and NXT Takeover, Thunderdome anticipation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast five years ago. This week on the Way
Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, I was joined by WWE Sam
Roberts from the Not Sam Wrestling Podcast and we previewed
www SummerSlam and also NXT Takeover, and we anticipated the

(01:30):
debut of the Thunderdome moving out of the Performance Center
with all the screens and more energy during the pandemic era.
Our SummerSlam discussion started with the Randy Orton Drew McIntyre
match for the WWB title. We also talked about the
Fiend and the universal title situation and everything in between.
First up, though, we did talk about the Thunderdome and the
evolution of b's production during the pandemic era of WWE. Then,

(01:53):
in the previously VIP exclusive after show, we talked about
whether to expect Retribution to get involved at SummerSlam, overall
thoughts on that angle and where it could be heading,
Plus a bonus NXT Takeover preview with the pros and
cons of a Keith Lee win or loss to Carrion Cross,
and some lavish praise for Bronson Reid's recent rise. Got
good news for him. It'll take a while, but he's

(02:14):
gonna get a good push five years later, so let's
get to it. This originally dropped on August eighteenth, twenty twenty,
and it is today's way Keller Progressling Podcast five years
ago flashback for Wednesday, August twentieth, twenty twenty five. All right, Sam,
we got SummerSlam coming up on Sunday, and it's crazy.

(02:37):
I guess by Friday night we'll have, you know, some idea.
But one of the things I'm anticipating more than any
of the matches is the production overhaul, the reimagining of
a WWE live event. And when Kevin Dunn goes on
record and sounds as excited as he does, that gets
me excited because I know how you know, proud he
is of wwwe's production and how probably frustrated he's been

(03:01):
with what he said to work with. Once the fans
are subtracted from the equation, where are you on a
one to ten scale in terms of anticipating what WWE
is coming up with. Well, we'll get a glimpse of
it on Friday on Fox, but certainly SummerSlam will probably
put a new twist on it, adding an extra layer.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I mean, I've literally already been texting people seeing if
I can go to the thunder come point. I don't
have unseen just because I'm so excited about it, and
you know, I don't know if it's going to help
my reputation on the internet as a shill. But yeah,
I think Kevin Dunne is like so underrated. As highly
rated as he is, I actually think he's supremely underrated

(03:38):
as a TV production person. I was actually thinking about today.
I was thinking about all the people who win Emmy
Awards for producing like award shows for producing the Oscars
and the Emmys and things like that, and just how
much more goes into your average episode of Raw or
smack Down than any of those award shows are than

(04:00):
anybody could possibly imagine. And I'm with you when I
saw that he did the interview with Sports Illustrated and
the fact that he's going on record and putting his
name on quotes and saying, you know, this is restli
They said, this is WrestleMania level, and the way that
I think, you know, when I first saw it, I
was at first I thought, great, you know, just to
get into an arena is going to be a vast improvement.

(04:22):
But the idea of you know, two thousand LED see
the LED screens. This isn't you know, just the front
row with some goofy fans on it. Two thousand LED
screens and the ceiling that they're building inside the thing
and everything. I'm I'm on one level, I was a
little surprised to find out that they were gonna debut

(04:44):
it on SmackDown and not Summer Slam. But realistically it
does make sense and I don't think it's going to
take anything away from SummerSlam to get to have a
preview of what the Terror Dome is going to look like.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah, I think the the idea of WWE looking at
what Major League Sports did and obviously, you know, they
have a budget to do things. The NHL has done
what they've done, and I think it works for hockey.
They didn't get super gimmicky, and you know, the NBA
has has you know, had some you know fans on LEDs,
and Major League Baseball's has the the cutouts, which is,

(05:20):
you know, kind of a cute idea, and the augmented
reality crowds that Fox has projected, and then everything else
that they you know, they've done little things here and
there to be able to have that now kind of
raise the bar. At first, I think WWE thought, hey,
we're running live shows and no one else is, or
we're putting you know, putting out original content. No one
else is, you know, just not that they were like,

(05:40):
you know, just take your medicine, you know, just be thankful.
But I think there was sort of a and I
talked to Christ Joseph ex creative, you remember about this
last week. I think there was just sort of a
sense of we don't how long it's gonna last. We
don't know if even people can be in the building,
or if that's going to be disallowed. There was just
sort of a we just need to kind of white
knuckle our way and get a show on the air
and then go from there. But it has been a
long time now and I have been a little disappointed

(06:03):
WWB hasn't tried to be more creative, and that's one
of the reasons I've been I don't know forgivings the
word but open minded, I guess is the word of
raw underground and just trying to find different ways to
present wrestling and experiment. And I think when people are
super critical of an idea that they don't think should
have even made the air, or they don't think it
worked once it made the air, I think that stifles

(06:24):
just brainstorming where there might be the next good idea.
That actually really works. And so to me, I just
look at this Friday and Sunday as a culmination of
months of frustration wanting to wait for the right time,
wanting to partner with the right company as they believe
they have done, and have this grand change. You know,
this isn't incremental. This feels like, I mean, there's been

(06:44):
incremental changes with the plexiglass and the audience members and
the way that the lasers were set up at the
performance center and stuff that certainly is incrementally made it
a better, more dynamic, more energized show than it was
in those first couple of weeks. But this feels like
a big step up. And I'm curious Sam if they
end up keeping keeping certain aspects of this if and

(07:05):
we won't know totally see it, but is it palatable
to keep certain aspects of this when they actually can
have socially distanced fans of in the hundreds at events
and it'll probably be incremental in that way. And then
do we end up seeing aspects of this with drones
and who knows what else when we actually have full
arenas again, you know in twenty twenty six. Yeah, I
mean I think I was joking hopefully yeah right, yeah,

(07:28):
people on it, Bud is that Rebing reported?

Speaker 3 (07:32):
I think that part of the I think a big
part tell you the truth of the reason why Thunderdome
is getting hyped up as much as it is is
because people. I feel like we're running the risk of
people forgetting how good WWE's production value is, and that
even the most critical fan of WWE would have to

(07:54):
admit that their TV production is just that's that's always
what separated them from not only every other wrestling company,
but all other TV period for the most part. And
I think that you're right. I think at first just
the idea of pulling off live shows in this environment

(08:15):
was a mark in and of itself of look how
good we are at this, We can actually pull off
doing live shows. But people have caught up, you know,
the world has caught up, and everybody is now figuring
out how to okay, how do we function with some
kind of reality while all this is going on? And
so I think that that has motivated WWE to raise

(08:37):
the bar again and say like, well, yeah, but this
is again what separates us. I think the other thing
is and the more I read about, you know, adding
the dome part of it, adding the ceiling that they
can project onto and the lasers and everything that they're adding.
It sounds like I think the best thing you can

(08:57):
do in the scenario that we're in is try to
not focus on what's lacking and try to see if
because of this unique scenario, there's anything that can actually
be made better. You know, when we saw that at
WrestleMania with like, you know, the boneyard match, you know,
we probably made the The Undertaker versus aj Styles was

(09:19):
probably a better match than it would have been in
a stadium as a boneyard match. You know that that
stuff happens, And I think that part of this is that, yeah,
that there probably could be some of those elements that
were still around. If you know, a thousand people got
brought into a seventeen thousand seat building, then you probably
could keep that. But I would imagine that most of

(09:41):
what's being added only can be added because of the
scenario that we're in, and that you couldn't put that
ceiling into an arena in normal circumstances because block field
of view for certain seats. So the fact that they
don't have to worry about blocking the field of view anymore.
And you know, we hear that every every WrestleMania there's
somebody on Twitter who you know, is tweeting photos of

(10:04):
the one of the spotlights blocking out the vision of
a section or whatever it is. And the fact that
they don't have to worry about blocking people's vision in
the building anymore and can just worry about loading loading
that space with production value. That's what's got me the
most curious.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
The I wonder too, how big it will feel. I
haven't gotten a sense from some of the shots that
have been leaked or what wbsts of what you know,
what percentage of the arena is going to be blocked
off if they're you know, because they have this big
weather protected environment with all you know, all the social
spacing they need for locker rooms and productions. They have
a state of the art arena, but we're not going

(10:46):
to see a big percentage of it based on the setup,
Like it's not like a ring and a dome, and
then there's just a bunch of empty seats. So I'm curious,
like how big the show feels compared to Performance Center,
but all small it feels compared to a regular WOV
event at Amway where there's a in the middle. So
I'm again I'm excited to see what they do. I've
always been into the production side of wrestling and the presentation,

(11:08):
and I'm glad. I think it's smart to debut it
on Fox one. I don't think they should wait another
week before trying to get ratings up again. They managed
to go over two million viewers on the final viewership
number for the first time since late June on last
Friday show, so people are I mean, it's a it's
a small difference and maybe not a trend or anything,

(11:29):
but they've stabilized, if not rebound a little bit from
their low level with some of the things that they're
doing on SmackDown, and I think they have a chance
to generate excitement for people tuning into SmackDown because of
all the hype Tom Phillips put into it on Raw
last night, and that can then lead to more network
buys for the big Summer Slam weekend would takeover in SummerSlam.
So I think it's smart to debut it on Friday.

(11:49):
Although certainly the curiosity factor, especially people think it's gaudy
or disappointing or cheesy or whatever, and there's gonna be
some of those people. But if it's a lot of people,
maybe it hurts the SummerSlam by rate a little. But
I say, if they're proud of it, show it off
to the two plus million and try to convert some
of them into network subscribers for the weekend.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
I would agree. And yeah, and I think, yeah, I
think using it for a TV rating is smart and
I yeah, I absolutely think that I have full faith
that it won't be anything near so bad that it
would hurt buy rate. I feel like this is something
that has been in the planet stages for a long time,
and that this is something that WWE feels extremely confident about.

(12:29):
That's the feeling that I get. I mean, I think
that even you know, calling it the Thunderdome, you're creating
this sort of mainstream thing where, you know, you there
are conversations happening outside of wrestling fans that are hearing
about this on ESPN or in a newspaper or sports

(12:50):
radio or whatever. They're gonna be curious, like, what is
this thunderdome? Like they don't know, they haven't read into
any of the specifics. They just heard that WWE built
of thunderdome to put SummerSlam in, you know, and they're
gonna be flipped through the channels and going like, oh,
is this that Thunderdome thing the wwe built? And that's
why I think I think it will be packed with

(13:11):
production value, because clearly Thunderdome is going to be one
of the stars of the show, one of the big
draws where you know, at a point you'd be like,
tune in because you can see Stone called Steve Austin,
you can see Hulk Hogan, you can see John Cena,
you can see whoever. Now it's going to be like, well,
tune in. We've got the Fiend, we got Drew McIntyre,

(13:34):
we've got Randy Orton, but we've also got the Thunderdome, right.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
And what I think is cool about the way that
they're hyping this is they're getting a lot of press,
they're getting a lot of attention, and if they're proud
also of their storylines right now, and we're going to
get into their storylines and their lineup, then this might
bring some eyeballs back at a time that they think, hey,
maybe we can hook some people with some of the
things that they're doing. They're really proud of what they

(14:01):
have planned for Randy Orton and Andrew McIntyre or what
they're doing with with bron Stroman and Alexa Bliss and
Bray Wyatt. They they are they're going to have eyeballs
on the product that would not have been there otherwise
if not for Thunderdome and the branding of this, and
so they have to do that. They have to do
their part on the other side too, which is make

(14:22):
sure that this isn't that it's not too distracting, but
enhancing to in the end the product that counts the most,
which you know, when Raw last night, it seemed like
they forgot that in ring wrestling is something people might
actually want to watch. It was like such a weird
show because we got about less than ninety seconds of
wrestling at any given time before somebody came to ringside
or interfered or the match ended. And Summerslim's going to

(14:44):
be very different.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
You know.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
That's when they kind of usually step aside and let
the wrestlers tell their story in the ring and do
what they're do, what they're great at and what fans
love about professional wrestling. And so I'm curious to what
the the atmosphere does to enhance with the wrestlers are doing.
Does it add adrenaline? Does it get their adrenaline pumping
a little more than the performance center. From the wrestlers

(15:05):
I've talked to in w B this past few days,
they what they're most excited about is just does it
make wrestling for them more fun? And some of what
we see on TV they're not gonna see. They're not
gonna have. I don't think they're gonna pipe in the
crowd ambiance, which went from something that seemed dishonest and
phony to oh, Baseball's more fun to watch When you

(15:26):
hear a little bit of murmur, you know, it's just
it's comforting. It's like white noise at night. So I
think w feels like empowered to do that. Although murmuring
at a baseball game is different than crowd pops for moves,
So I'm curious how they do that. But we're probably
going to hear that on the TV side, but the
wrestlers won't. The wrestlers playing to actual live fans on

(15:47):
led screens is really intriguing because they have faces in
people to play to that they you know, they've been
playing to colleagues, you know, Yes, lesser, lesser colleagues for
lack of better term, people who are newer and less established.
But it's kind of weird, you know, to play to
colleagues when you're normally playing to fans. So just the

(16:09):
way the rest from the restler's perspective, and I'm commenting
on this because that's kind of what they've conveyed to me,
is you know, they're curious how it affects how they
feel if it feels closer to performing in front of
a crowd again, or if it feels more like their
TV studio wrestling on some sort of movie set and
it's a real disconnect from what they're used to.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
Well, I also think about it like UFC in the
sense that I know that that there are UFC fighters
that feel like, even if there's no fans, going to
Fight Island and flying all the way to Abu Dhabi
and then you know, being in an arena and feeling
like this is a big show. It's a very different
environment than if they're going to you know, the UFC's

(16:49):
training facility in Las Vegas, you know, and as big
as those fights are, as big as this DBA Cormier
fight was walking to that octave on. You know that
you're not in an arena. You know that you're in
a gym, and I think that I think that no
matter what WWE does to dress up the performance Center,

(17:11):
you know that you're there. You know when you're in
gorilla position, you know there's literally no room in that
building outside of of the arena itself, the quote unquote arena.
So you know in every aspect that you're in the
performance center. The ceilings are low, you know, the ring
is taking up most of the room. You know where
you are, and I think that just being in an

(17:33):
arena is going to make a difference. I know that
as a viewer, and I don't know. I talked to
some UFC fans that didn't care, like it didn't make
a difference to them, But I know that as a
very very as more of a television fan than a
UFC fan, and certainly, you know, a wrestling fan first,
I definitely could tell. I definitely felt like even before

(17:58):
Fight Island, when they were able to get an empty arena,
that there was a big difference between watching an octagon
in an empty, blackedout arena and an octagon in that
training center that they have.

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(18:55):
All right, let's introduce ourselves and then get on to
the actual lineup. Sam, This is the way Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast, a special Tuesday, paper free preview edition. I'm
way Keller, host of the show, joined by not Sam
Sam Roberts. Sam, welcome back to Welcome back to the
way Keller Podcast.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Thanks for having me. I always have a good time.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So let's have you talked about what you do when
they can see you on TV when they can listen
to you podcasting and maybe some recent highlights they should
check out.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, well, of course I'm on a bunch of the
WWE kickoff shows. You'll be able to watch me on
the NXT Takeover thirty pre show on Saturday. And then
Not Sam Wrestling the podcast comes out every Monday. There's
a second episode that comes out every Thursday for Patreon
members of Patreon Slash Not Sam Wrestling. But we actually

(19:46):
just had a great podcast drop on Monday with Ron Funches, who's,
you know, a great comedian but also a massive wrestling fan,
and together we concocted what if the end of Raw Underground?
Is it all happened in Shane McMahon's head and we
just zoom out to see him in like a mental

(20:07):
facility looking out a window, and you realized that this
whole thing was just going on in his head the
whole time. But we had a good time talking about everything.
So that Not Sam Wrestling goes up every Monday on
Apple and Spotify and everywhere you get podcasts, and of
course Serious XM. I'm on with Jim Norton every morning
on Channel one oh three on Sirius XM.

Speaker 1 (20:30):
That's just a little side gig. Yeah right, all right,
let's get into the Summer Slam line up here, and
we'll begin with Drew Baca Tar Randy Yorton. We had
the big angle last night with Shawn Michaels. I thought
it was an intriguing line for Shawn Michaels. I'm not
sure if the syntax was not what he was hoping

(20:51):
for or it's just the red herring. It appears to
be that Randy Orton. You know, whether it's a sweet
Chin music or a Claymore kick, you won't see it coming.
And after what Randy did to Sean, are they is
there a possibility that Randy and Drew in their first
match at SummerSlam end up with some people who Randy
has attacked, maybe coming back to haunt him, Maybe just

(21:14):
Sean Michaels himself, because he didn't seem you know, brutalized. Oh,
I mean he was, you know, selling being hurt, but
not like in an ambulance or some others, you know,
Rick Flair, who's getting better, we are told, or even
Edge and Christian or do you see this straight up?
Drew Randy one on one and we don't see that
on maybe reading too much into Michael's kind of hinting

(21:34):
he might be around to deliver switech in music.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Well, I mean there's a couple of things going on.
I mean, first, the whole legend killer character coming back
for this story, Like you do wonder if there is
more than meets the eye there, because realistically it doesn't
have that much to do with Drew McIntyre. You can
easily tell the Randy Orton Drew McIntyre story without Randy

(21:58):
Orton beating up Christian or Rick Flair or Shawn Michaels
like that doesn't it doesn't really have a lot to
do with Drew McIntyre, especially because Randy Orton is more
in the legend category at this point than Drew McIntyre is.
So maybe that comes into play, you know, maybe the
idea that maybe it is you know, there were when
Randy was tweeting about NXT and leg slapping and stuff.

(22:21):
The question started coming up as to whether that kind
of role would be reversed and the NXT guys would
be coming to take out the legend that is Randy Orton,
you know, and who knows, maybe that begins at SummerSlam.
Maybe there's something there, maybe there's not. You know, maybe
Rick Flair does end up coming back. We never actually
saw the kick, so you know, maybe Rick Flair does

(22:42):
come back. Maybe he comes back to corner Randy Orton
and it was all a trick, you know, or maybe
he got kicked and Retribution just turned off the lights.
Who knows, I do. I would like to think though,
that there's more going on here, just in the sense
that Shawn Michaels was on his feet by the end
of Raw, which we have, I mean, Big Show got

(23:06):
taken out with the Christian Rick Flair, like everybody else
that got taken out is dead, right, Like everybody's just gone,
And somehow Sean was able to get back. Yeah, right, somehow,
but that's how we end, right, Like they're unconscious, unresponsive,

(23:27):
and Sean is still standing somehow. So I mean, but
at the same time, I find it hard to believe
that Sean's going to get back in the ring. But
at the same time, if he is going to get
back in the ring, maybe now is the time he's
going to do it. I don't I don't know. I
think when I'm looking at this match, I definitely think
it's the biggest match that Drew McIntyre has had in

(23:50):
his title reign by a mile, like this is this
feels like a main event. This feels like a match
that should go on last. This feels like a match
where both guys are coming out and you don't know
who's leaving with the WWE Championship. I think that people
can you this could easily go either way, and at
this point even I'm fifty to fifty on who leaves

(24:11):
with the title. But to some extent, I feel like
this story has done more to bring out Randy Orton
than it has brought out the story of Randy Orton
and Drew McIntyre.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Is that good, bad, or neutral?

Speaker 3 (24:29):
It depends, It depends on It really depends on what happens.
That's why I'm kind of left going hot, you know
if I mean, if Randy Orton ends up winning the
title and we're going someplace with it, then it's like, Okay,
we were spending them last month laying the foundation for it.
Or if the Legends do come back at SummerSlam, which
probably I would not suggest. I mean, you know, if

(24:50):
the Legends come back at SummerSlam and get their come
up ins. You know, I don't unless you're doing one
of those Jeric things. Remember Jericho had the match with
the Three Legends, and I mean even that though, if
you hadn't had that great performance from Ricky Steamboat, that
wouldn't have been good at all. So I kind of

(25:14):
am not terribly interested in seeing the Legends come back
to get their revenge on Randy, but I would be
okay with with the further development of Randy. I mean,
I think that if anybody has prospered, ironically, you know,
the people that have prospered in in this environment, in

(25:37):
this sort of quarantined environment, are Randy Orton, MVP. You know,
guys that have been around the block as yeah, and
and yeah, I would say of the current generation, yes,
and Sasha and Bailey are the other two that have
prospered in this environment. But yeah, I do feel like

(25:57):
if I'm getting what I want, I'd be happy, I
think to see Randy Orton walk out WWE champion and
to watch the story build with Randy. I think that
we're in this unique position because you know the thing
about Randy Orton is he's definitely got times where he's hot,
and he's definitely got times where he's not. Like there
are plenty of times throughout Randy's career where people are

(26:19):
kind of bored of Randy Orton, but now is not
one of those times. I think that he could come
out of this era a monster heel and maybe the
perfect person for Drew McIntyre to eventually beat. When there's
you know, a couple of fans in the.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Building, that's the you know, when you look at the
pros and cons of Randy winning the championship, you think, well, god,
you know that just sort of defines Drew as all
nice title reign, but you've been a failure. We're blaming
you for ratings or you know whatever people conjure up
as the backstory to it. And sometimes that can actually
take the speculation can sort of become perception, and that

(26:55):
perception then can become reality and it defines Drew down
as the generational, dominating, long term champion. That said, there's
some real pros positives to Randy winning because Randy has
been so compelling, and then Drew gets in the position
of chasing, and if Drew is on the chase and
he wins the title back in front of a crowd,

(27:16):
he gets that moment he missed out on at WrestleMania.
If Drew beats Randy, now who's next. If Drew just
hits a Claymore and beats Randy one, two three, what's
left go back to seth rollins. I know they're trying
to build a Bobby Lashley strong but to me, the
with what's been invested in Drew and Randy, there's more
of a story to tell with Drew and Randy. But

(27:39):
does that require Randy winning or is there another route
you can go where Drew retains, say thanks to Michaels
in a sweet Chin music or something, and then but
then that leads to Randy, you know, kind of demanding
and earning or being granted another title shot. There's obviously
what's fun about prosing is they're just you know, a
whole array of ways this can go. But I don't
think I don't think there's an hour. So my first

(28:01):
reaction to Randy winning was, no way, they're not going
to do that. It's Randy and it's true, and look
at you know, he's just won the title. It feels
like he's barely had a chance. But when you think
about him regaining the title, becoming two time champion, the
story they can tell with him on the chase and
regaining it, perhaps with fans at present, you get to
recreate that moment he missed out on so and Randy's
just been so good. So I'm just willing to sit

(28:24):
back and watch and not prejudge whether, you know, if
there's a finish, you know, if there's a title change
or not a title change. I'm sure they talked this
through with thought it through, and I want to see
a little more of the story before I reach my
own verdict on whether I think it was probably a mistake.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Uh yeah, I agree, And I also think that part
of it is for Drew McIntyre to be effective in
the role that he's in, we have to want him
to be champion. Fans have to want him to be champion,
which means that when fans come back in the building,
it's it's up to Drew and it's up to WWE

(29:02):
for Drew to be in a position where fans are saying,
we want this is the guy we want, like we
want to see Drew beat Randy again. You know, I
think that that the scenario that you set up where
Drew is looked at as not that generational champion, where
he's looked at as a as a guy who didn't
quite work out. I think that that only happens if

(29:23):
we leave this sort of COVID era and we're not
interested in seeing Drew beat Randy again. And if that's
the case, then maybe that's true. You know, if we
if we leave this era and people don't want to
see specifically Drew beat Randy again, well then then maybe
that is true.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Right, yeah, yeah, Well that you brought up the possibility
of the lights coming out and Flair wasn't kicked, wasn't
punt kicked, but he sold he was And you know,
I'm thinking of the low blow. You know, you can
wear protection, you can you know, fake it, fake being hurt,
and so we didn't see I don't think anything that

(30:05):
that just would disqualify it from Rick and Randy being
in on a con. But what would have been the
incentive for to pull off that con if you're if
you're Randy Orton and Ric Flair plotting, I guess it
would be to create at SummerSlam, you'll never see it

(30:27):
coming could be And I don't like subtitles for pay
per views that show that the marketing department knew the
finish of a match and decided to name it after
the finish. So hopefully that's not exactly what they do,
but I'm I'm not ruling that out, Sam, so you'll
never see it coming. Could end up being or will
let's call it a big coincidence that Rick Flair comes
out and you know, the the two thousand led fans

(30:50):
pop and Rick is there to offset something dastardly that
Randy's doing. But then it turns out Rick is actually
with Randy, and and it doesn't I through your retribution
turnning off the lights. Randy could have paid off somebody
to pretend to be retribution or you know, assuming they'd
be blamed and framing them. So I could see you know,
Rick and Randy staying together, being together all along, and

(31:13):
Rick actually turning on Michaels in addition to Drew. So
I yeah, I mean, I if nobody, if if a
lot of people weren't thinking about that and that's what's happening,
I feel bad, you know, playing it out and maybe maybe,
but I think it's probably been you know, it's pro
wrestling and it's Rick Flair, so you know, it's it's
a natural place to go.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
All right. So your odds on Randy walking out with
the belt or Drew walking out with the belt, what's
your It's like the election odds, you know, seventy three
percent Biden according to five thirty eight. What percent chance
does Drew retain the title?

Speaker 3 (31:47):
You know, I said fifty to fifty, But that's the
most uninteresting answer, you Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
If that's honest, though, don't Well.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, but I I really would probably go more sixty
forty with Randy winning being the sixty Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, I'm kind of there right now too, when I
wasn't just like three days ago.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
And I think part of that is because of what
we were talking about. I think part of that is
because this story has been so Randy Orton centric that
this is really Drew has been following Randy's lead. Drew
had that great promo a week or two ago, you know,
talking about Randy not being there to help him out
and him you know, by the way, I think you know,

(32:29):
there are the list of band words in WWE. If
I never hear the word catering on a WWE shown,
it won't be too soon. I mean the amount of
references to catering that I heard. It's like, it's it's
insane every show they're talking about catering now. But yeah,

(32:50):
that was a great promo and did a lot for backstory.
But you know, I think that I think that, you know,
ww's kind of recognizing the Randy org is in this
renaissance obvious career right now. And I mean I think
having a heel champion and having it be somebody as
reliable as Randy Orton when there are no fans to

(33:11):
cheer or boo, I don't think that's the worst thing
in the world.

Speaker 5 (33:14):
Yeah, need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts?
Will come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress
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(33:38):
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(33:59):
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Speaker 1 (34:18):
See you in the Paradise. Well, let's uh, let's stay
on the right side of things for the next stanza
here and talk about Apollo Cruise and m v P
and you know, speaking of catering, m v P thrown
that word around a lot. If if Randy Orton wins

(34:39):
to the uh W w B title and Apollo Cruise
retains the US title, you know, we have a babyface
champion to quote offset a little bit, the heel champion
above him on the on the lineup is a poo.
Is Apollo Cruise growing into this role or does he
still feel like does it feel like yah? You know, yeah,

(35:01):
he's getting a push, but this is probably the peak
of his WWE run and he's kind of showing this
is It's not like he's out of place, but you
don't look at him as us champ and say yep,
and the next step is, you know, world tidle level,
and that's kind of where I am. I feel like
this is fine and he's doing fine. I'm not like
against his matches or his I gues his promos are
are weak, but also in a weird kind of way,

(35:22):
just human and relatable and not bumpastic. So I think
that can actually be a good thing to have in
the mix. But I don't see him as as like
in two years, we're talking about him being an actual
top tier babyface. What have you thought?

Speaker 6 (35:36):
You know?

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Because we talked about people getting more of a push
and thriving in this pandemic era, Apollo Cruz has certainly
been given opportunities, there's another word, and I think he's
done well with it, but I wouldn't say he's just
running away with it. What do you think?

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, I mean I kind of feel like so for me,
as much as I always like to see guys who
are deserving and guys who are skilled on the level
that Apollo is. As much as I like seeing those
guys get opportunities that they've deserved for years, I also
don't like ignoring this idea that you know, in terms

(36:10):
of wins and losses, Apollo Cruise has sucked on the
main roster for years, and I don't think that that
was ever explained. I never got a sort of well,
why is now all of a sudden, why is the
Pollo crew is able to win matches? And he was
never able to do that before.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
When I was a little kid, Sam watching the Awa,
vern Ganya had Nick bock Wwinkle's number. Nick Bockwinkle went
to Japan and came back with the Oriental Sleeper, which
was superior to the Ganya Sleeper and was the new
weapon that vern Ganya had to fear, because now Nick
had something that would neutralize and even override the Ganya Sleeper.

(36:52):
And I bought. I was all in, Huh, Nixon at
a whole new level, a whole new threat, you know,
like you can just do a move, Like there's things
you can do that the tap into what you're saying,
which is, does Apollo have a trainer? Did Apollo get
a new move, like a sports like thing like in
UFC mentioned Emma May earlier, just changing training caps like yeah,
and they did. That wasn't injected as part of the narrative,

(37:14):
and I think that is valuable. So I wanted to
inject my oriental sleep efforts because anytime I can reference
Nick bachminck Alett too.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
Yeah, no, and I think it's super fitting. But I
think even yeah, I think I think you're right. Even
if Apollo just went to Japan to train, you know
what I mean, And he didn't even have to actually
go to Japan, he doesn't have to come back with
any new moves whatsoever. I think if Apollo just goes
away and he was away, and I think if you say,
you know, he was training with this person, or he

(37:40):
was in this area training or whatever, just something that
would explain why now he's a different superstar than he
was before, I think that would go a long way.
And I don't think we're there, you know. For me,
I kind of feel as though what would get me there?
And I've thought about this for since this sort of

(38:02):
MVP hurt business stuff started. I mean, I feel like
an Apollo Cruse heel turn would be I feel like
both Apollo Cruise and Mustafa Ali could do wonders with
a heel turn that eventually they could turn back. But
something where they're they like that, They're they're noting, Look,

(38:23):
I'm good and I'm not getting the opportunities I deserve.
I'm good and I'm getting ignored. I'm like, play on
that thing. Like there's enough real life chip on the
shoulder type mentality that both Apollo Cruise and Ali could
turn around and and and turn heel and join the

(38:44):
hurt business or turn heel and also turn on the
hurt business. You know, you could do it in a
in a many many different ways. I think Apollo Cruise
where to turn heel, have a change of attitude and
then slowly get back to a place where he was
a babyface get If he did a good job as
a heel, then I think that you could be talking about,

(39:07):
you know, whether or not he would raise into world
title status. But yeah, I mean now even with the
United States Championship, if you tell me that Randy Orton
versus Apollo Cruise or Drew McIntyre versus Apollo Cruse is
happening on raw, I'm thinking an easy night for the champion.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
I would of the four people who were kind of
candidates for the rapid Fire elimination take much. Last night
on Raw, Cedric and ricochet turning heel intrigues me more.
I think, all he is such a natural babyface. So
I'm not saying that it can't work, because I see
the upside in terms of the journey that you're touting,
but in terms of just naturally fitting as heels, I

(39:47):
think Cedric and Ricochet and kind of an O'Reilly fish
type way playing off each other, being cocky, full of
themselves can work. The downside is they're so freaking athletic.
How do you boo those moves? And that's a downside.
I mean in a way that that sort of you know,
Cruise and Ali would have that working against them too.
But I was for a little while there until Cedric
kind of, you know, seemed like he was with the

(40:08):
whole twenty four to seven thing, rebuffing MVP, you know,
kind of turning him down officially, although that story can continue,
but Cedric and Ricochet being cocky and having MVP speak
for them because Ricochet is talking, is a weak point.
But I think he can, you know, wear nice clothes
and look full of himself pretty effectively. And Cedric I
think could be a really good heel. So I just
in general, I'm intrigued by all all the characters. I am.

(40:33):
I am very disappointed that they had an elimination tag
match and just to find down, you know, four or
five of those guys the way that they did with
those just contrivance early eliminations. I just think that makes
Allie look so bad. You talk about Apollo Cruz having
this long term track record that they didn't address. It's
hard to take all these seriously when he lost that

(40:54):
quickly just because they wanted to have all those people
in the ring for an elimination match. I am, I
just don't think Toode should be allowed. I think we should,
like you know, have have the Nancy Pelosi should convene
the House Hearing to ban elimination matches from to to
Bee television because they're a lot more worried about ratings
in the long term integrity of some of the wrestling
characters they have. That said, I like, I am, I'm

(41:16):
enjoying that sidebar side, I'm really enjoying the hurt business
and the dynamic that that MVP has with everybody in
his group, and then that those current rivals outside of
the group.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
Yeah, I am too. I think it's really good. I
thought that. I thought about Cedric on Raw this week.
It was a very much similar storyline to what Dakota
Kai went through going into war Games, which led to
her turn, which I think was done masterfully and has
leftist with a very organic keel in Dakota Kai that
feels like, yeah, and now and now it feels like

(41:48):
she should be competing for the women's championship at Takeover.
The only thing with Cedric is I worry, and with
Ricochet too, I don't. I worry that if they were
to turn heel, they would just be a heel version
of who they are now. I don't know that they
would move up the card at all. They would just
it would just be something interesting for them to do.

(42:09):
I mean, my thing with Ali, and I mean I've
been stuck on this Ali thing since I mean since
Kofe became the champion, is that I felt like there
was this thing to cash in on where Kofe became.
You know, do you believe in miracles? But we never
really addressed the fact that Kofe took Ali's spot. From
the beginning. Ali was supposed to be the do you

(42:30):
believe in miracles? And he was supposed to go to
the elimination chamber and then he would have been able
to have that great performance then he would have gone.
But I guess, you know, ultimately it would have been
like okay, so he would have lost to brock Lesner
in ten seconds. Like what difference does Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
I know, I know. And we talked about MVP though,
you know, yeah, thriving in this environment, and you know,
I was I thought MVP was fine, you know, his
first time around, but I didn't think he was like
a top top guy. And I thought his character was
a little one dimensional and repetitive, good but not very

(43:06):
good or great, both in the ring and on the mic.
And it sounds like an insult, it's not. I mean,
there's a place for people who are good but not
very good or great. And he played a certain role,
but man has he And it's not even like he's
that different of a character. But there's something about that
character that works better as a fifties year old instead

(43:26):
of a thirty five ash year old guy. For some reason,
and I don't know why. It just is it's just clicking,
but he just seems it seems like there's more depth
and to the person he's playing, and he was you know,
some people were meant to be seventeen and never upgrow.
At other people when they're seventeen, You're like, they're not
really going to be themselves until they're sixty or forty.

(43:49):
You know, some people just there's sort of a natural
age that matches certain people's personalities. And I think with MVP,
like sort of being this veteran sage who's a little
devious or a lot devious, it really works for him.
And he's just he's one of the real surprises when
he came back as like, you know, a little nostalgia thing.
He's you know, gonna guess for a couple of weeks
and then go away, and now like, I really look

(44:10):
forward to anything he's part of. And I'm curious how
they treat him on Sunday when it comes to is
is he a credible opponent to Apollo? Should he be
portrayed as credible opponent to Apollo? Does that hurt Apollo?
So your your thoughts on MVP and also the dynamic
in Sunday's match.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yeah, I think it's really really interesting when you talk
about his character and you know, being better at the
age that he's at now, and I think that's right.
I mean I really liked the MVP when he first
came in and he had the inflatable entrance and the
and the whole thing, Like, I love the presentation. I
loved the character, but ultimately the character was supposed to,

(44:51):
you know, is based on these professional athletes that get
signed to the huge, huge money and they become these
big stars. And while that's cool and hadn't really been
done before, once you get past this thing where you're like, well,
he's not really a big star, Like it's I never
heard of this guy before he got the WWE. So

(45:11):
once you once you kind of get past the reality
of who is you can't just fall into the character.
I think to come back now with the career that
he's had in the WWE and then outside of the WWE,
I mean, you know, going to New Japan, you know,
the run that he had an impact, like all that
stuff really really counts. I think that he comes tooting Sam.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
You know what podcasting can do to expand one's personality death.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
I mean, it's the best way to make yourself an
amazing performance, the only one, exactly, the only one. But
he does strike me as somebody who has now seen
it all and done at all. He's confident in every
role that he's in, and also just in terms of
his character, there is this credibility that his entire the

(46:04):
fact that he's had this career now it lends to credibility,
so that the ego that his character had fifteen years
ago is now backed up with a fifteen year career,
and all of a sudden, instead of just being the
guy who's playing a character, it's this guy who's being
obnoxious about things that happen to be true, which is

(46:27):
the best type of heel.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
So does Apollo Cruise, Does Apollo Cruise come out with
a belt? Or does MVP win the title it's been
It feels like it could go either way, and I
wish that it felt like could be a bigger deal
if it went one way or the other, because they
can just switch the belt again at payback or at
a subsequent SmackDown. But it's the time right to have
MVP come up short and invest in Apollo Cruise being

(46:51):
a strong champion.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Yeah, I think it's definitely it would definitely be a
good time to have Apollo win at Summerslim, you know.
And I think that MVP is better without a title,
you know. I think that MVP being a manager that
can get in there, you know what I mean, like
the type of spokesperson for this group that if you
throw him into the raw underground he can definitely beat

(47:15):
somebody up. And if you add him into a multi
person tag match, he can definitely get in there. And
it's not going to be one of these things where
it's like Harvey Whippleman in the ring. It's going to
be a real credible opponent. But I think that he
is more valuable as a spokesperson than as an active competitor.
And I think that adding what he does to who

(47:39):
Bobby Lashley is physically or who Shelton Benjamin is physically,
I think that that, to me, is the more valuable
use of MVP. I think.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(48:14):
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upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon.
Let's move to another ramac and the taking title situation.
The Street Profits defending against Andrade and Angel Garza. We

(48:34):
found out that Zelena Vega did poison montest Ford, or
at least we have pretty compelling evidence of such.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
All.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
She's still denying it, claiming it's it's doctored footage.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
She thinks it's Charlie might have done it.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yes, yes, I still I was trying to wrap my
head around that when I'm like, okay, let's see here,
she's jealous that no, I couldn't And then I was like,
I can't do it and I'm not gonna. Is there
a way that that makes any sense that Charlie.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
Well sometimes well she has tension with Charlie, and you know,
based on the fact that she she doesn't not that
she's jealous of the attention that Charlie gets from Angel
Garza because I sensed the Angel Garza Selena Vega relationship
as business. I don't think Zelena is trying to make

(49:18):
it anything other than that, but I think she does
resent when Angel Garza's attention gets distracted from the business
by some of these women, Charlie being one of them,
especially since Charlie doesn't appear to respect Selena but appears
to be pretty infatuated with Angel. You know, I don't
think Selena appreciates that. So, you know, this tape comes

(49:40):
out and I took it as Zelena panicked. She does
not like Charlie, and Charlie's the first person she saw,
so she was like, wasn't me. It's probably you just
to just to get attention off her. That's the way
I took it.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Yeah, I mean to get to the motivation of Charlie
fres Or doing it. It's I get. I'm it's meant
to sound preposterous and not credible and that I get that.
I get. So, So as far as the take team
situation goes, any thoughts on this, I mean, there's been
we had the poisoning storyline, so Ford has a reason
for revenge. Although he already you know, got to be

(50:17):
in the ring against one of them, and and they
I was kind of surprised they that they paid that
off as quickly at well, I shouldn't say paid it off,
but started the payoff or had them, you know, in
the ring after the poisoning thing was exposed as quickly
without as much hype as they did on Ron Monday.
That show was so densely packed. I would have just
expanded that elimination match a little more and and saved

(50:40):
any kind of physical contact with Ford until Sunday. But
your your thoughts on this match, Sam, and where you
think it's heading.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
You know, I mean I think you know the poison
thing is what it is. It's a little silly, it's
a little cheesy, but it's still I would rather there
be these story elements added in than not, like I would.
I would preferred We've had a long time. I feel
like in WWE, where too many matches are just here's
a good tag team versus another good tag team. Here's

(51:09):
a good single star versus another good single star. I
like having these story elements put in, you know, even
if they're just kind of wacky storylines, I still think
that that I still think they add to the match,
and they certainly add to my interest in the match.
I am very glad that they seem to have dropped

(51:30):
the idea of Garza and Androde breaking up. I think
that Garza and rad Zelina as a three person group
is great. I don't ever want them I mean maybe not,
I don't ever, but I don't want them to break
up anytime soon. And I mean I actually think it
would be good for the Tag Team's Championship to have

(51:52):
a title change at SummerSlam. You know, I don't. I
don't think that this whole you Poisoned Monte has storyline
needs to go any further than SummerSlam. But I feel
like they've already. They lost a non title match a
few weeks ago, they lost the singles match this week,

(52:12):
so I think they have to lose again. Would be
a little like, Okay, well what are you bothering watching
these guys for? And you know, I think that I
would be more interested in that group if they had
the Tag Team Championship.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
Yeah, yep, I'm with you on that, and I'm glad
they're keeping them together. I mean that's yeah. I was
not against or it's not for for the teasing. There's
just too many, too many groups teasing, too many partnerships
teasing breaking up at once. And that was that was
a partnership where it just made so much sense to
keep them together. Let's see what else from RAW before

(52:48):
we get to the women's title match. Oh yes, Seth
and Dominic. This has been intense. I mean as intense
as Randy and the Legend, Killer and Edge, Christian Flair
and and Sean Michaels has been Ray and Dominic. You know,
we talked about who's stepped up in the pandemic era.
I think you got to say Ray Raymond Stereo too.

(53:10):
His promo work is better than anything he's ever done,
you know, kind of like MVP aging into a certain
a certain maturity on his promos and having a little
bit more to talk about as a father and all that.
I mean, I just think the Ray Dominic dynamic as
a father's son, the father son dynamic between Ray and Dominic,

(53:34):
I think has been played well. It feels genuine. I
believe Ray when he talks about being proud of Dominic
for wanting to fight for the family honor. I believe
Ray when he is intense and worked up about wanting
to protect Dominic and how hard it was to see
Dominic go through what he went through. Your thoughts just
kind of in general on Ray's performances and then lead
into your thoughts on the match Sunday with Seth and

(53:56):
Dominic Street Fight.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
I mean, I've been loving Ray's performances, you know, I
think Ray this entire run in WWE is just it's unbelievable.
You know, watching a guy who's been around as long
as is Ray has h you don't feel any fatigue
with him, Like there is no sort of like, Hugh,

(54:21):
are they doing another Ray Mysterio match? Like I'm I'm
I'm happy every time there's a Ray Mysterio pay per
view match, which is a lot to say for a
guy that I've been watching on pay per view since
nineteen ninety six, Like that's it's crazy, It's unheard of
to me. And I think that that goes to the
fact that he's evolved as much as he has. And

(54:43):
I think that you're right. I think that in the
era that we're in, what's maintaining interest is storylines and
storylines that you actually care about, and you know, having
a poke your eye out match is not the easiest
thing in the world to convince adult to care about.
But Ray Ray is so good at finding the element

(55:07):
of reality and riding that element. So no matter what
over the top situation you're in, Ray kind of you know,
he goes around and he finds this one little element,
this one little kernel, and he sticks to that. And
then when and all of a sudden, when Ray's talking,
it becomes real and you start to care. You care

(55:29):
about it because Ray is explaining why you should and
it feels authentic, and I really really like it, you know.
I think that I think that this is a curiosity thing,
you know. I think Dominic at Survivor series, when he
did the six P one nine he got involved in
the Brock match, I think you opened a lot of
people's eyes there. I think that that's why people are

(55:49):
not poop pooing this. They're going like, Okay, maybe Dominic's
got something. And I also think that as somebody who
has never done anything, Dominic has been pretty good. I mean,
Dominic's promos do not feel like he's never done it before.
You know, a Dominic feels believable as well. So I

(56:11):
think as long as Dominic can be impressive, and it doesn't.
It doesn't have to be Dominicus the greatest wrestler in
the world. But if you're in there watching and you're like, oh, Dominate,
this kid's pretty good, I think it could turn into
something pretty cool.

Speaker 7 (56:32):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Dominic's in a tough spot. I mean, you know, the
son of the legend. It's you know, there's you could
do a whole ranking of success stories. Uh, you know,
middle of the road and utter failures, but the tendency
of fans to reject a cocky kid who seems to
have been able to leapfrog past trying trying, without knowing

(57:29):
if it would work to get into developmental toiling on
the indie scene, with long road trips and and and
small paydays if any, and then having to prove himself
amongst other people on an even playing field without a relative,
and you know, for him to leap frog through all
of that, and you know, months or years in NXT
and then suddenly he's in a central storyline with a

(57:50):
former member of the Shield h with the statue of
seth Rawlins. That's right for fans rejecting, I mean, frankly, rightfully.
So if he carried himself in a certain way that
gave off the vibe of self entitlement and cockiness, and
I thought he had a little bit of that early on.
I thought there was a little bit of body language
in playing off of Samoa Joe that looked like a
warning sign of you know what, you know, if you

(58:13):
were in front of a live crowd. This could have
been the tipping point. And he, whether it was an
accident or purposeful, he changed course. And I think he
has played it right now. I don't think taking a
whipping with candlesticks and showing off photos front and back
makes up for skipping, you know, four to six years
of toiling on the indie scene, hoping and not knowing

(58:34):
if you'll get into developmental, spending time in NXT, having
to actually have good matches off TV to work your
way out of TV, and it doesn't make up for
all of that, but there is a certain level of man.
He did go through hell to get at least to
this body. He's paying some dues, And I'm curious how
a crowd would respond if this were happening, if everything

(58:54):
happened the way it's happened, but it happened in front
of crowds, because I think with everything working against Dominic
in a circumstance like this, and again rightfully so, you
should have to face some extra scrutiny if you get
in because your family connections. But I think he's played
this well enough and the story has been sound enough

(59:15):
in terms of Ray's execution and Seth being so unlikable,
I think Dominic might be being cheered and not rejected,
and maybe a different era wrestling fan from ten or
fifteen years ago would have just been salivating at just
pushing back and rejecting him. I'm not quite sure the
fan base today is quite like that in reality at arenas.
Maybe on social media they might be in certain circles.

(59:36):
Do you think Dominic would be cheered or boo? Do
you agree with kind of my assessment that he could
have gone, he could have broken bad with a little
with the wrong demeanor, but that he's actually played the
tone just right in order to likely avoid that if
there were fans.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Yeah, I also think that Seth Rollins has been doing
a better job as a heel than people are really
giving him credit for. Like, I think there is that
element of people want to see Seth Rollins get beat up,
which isn't the most common thing these days, you know.
I mean, wrestling fans for the most part consider themselves
too smart to fall into a trap like that. So

(01:00:16):
I think that that's part of it too. But yeah,
I think that I think that maybe in a you know,
I think there's a combination of things. I definitely think
in a different era would have been a lot more
difficult for Dominic. I think that Ray is a special case.
I think that there is so much respect for Ray
Mysterio that people are willing to go, like, you know,

(01:00:39):
I'll give a son a chance. You know, There's not
too many guys that are respected by the fan base
as much as Ray Mysterio is. And also, you know,
I think that paying your dues and and doing all
that is important. But if you're good without it, you're good.
Like what are you gonna say, Like, you know, I

(01:01:02):
have no problem with the way you're performing, but I
wish you would pay your dues. Like at that point,
it doesn't matter if you have no problem with the
way he's performing. And I think that that Dominic so
far has been in all the right positions, Like I
can't really think of a time when Dominic struck out,
you know, and and and I think that this is
gonna be pretty telling. I think it'll help that he's

(01:01:22):
in there with seth rollins. I think it will help
that he it's a no holes barred match, so he can,
you know, disguise certain things. But I think ultimately it's
gonna be the match that determines whether Dominic Mysterio is
just kind of a prop for this storyline or if
he's somebody that you're looking at and going like, oh,

(01:01:43):
this kid's no, he's gonna be a legit. He's gonna
be a wrestler, he's gonna be a superstar.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
So how does this, uh, how does this play out?
I I don't expect it to just be one on
one to a finish. I expect there to be some
shenanan aganst with Murphy and Ray. What what what scenarios
have run through your head?

Speaker 3 (01:02:03):
I mean, I feel like Dominic has to win. I
don't think that you can watch a guy get his
eye took out and then have his son get beat like.
I just don't think. I mean, at some point you
gotta win something, right so, and I feel like Seth
can recover okay from it, you know, especially in the

(01:02:24):
position that he's in right now. I I think, in
my mind, I think that the way you do it is,
you know, you might have Alistair come out, maybe Alistair
with an eye patch on, and take out uh Murphy,
And then I think the move that I would make

(01:02:45):
would probably be Ray gets involved and he helps, he
helps Dominic and at some point, you know, he's got
that you saw and Roy he's got that uh you know,
the eye patch over the eye on his mask. You know.
I think the move is that he finally peels off
the eye patch and you realize his eye is healed,
and Seth goes, oh no, and then boom, Ray hits

(01:03:07):
him with something, Dominic hits him with something, and there's
your there's your big theatrical finish.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
I think a bigger theatrical finish is he tears off
the eye patch and the eye is still dangling from
the socket, and Seth throws up and then passes out,
and then Dominic scores an easy uh, you know, finger
on the chest pin.

Speaker 3 (01:03:23):
He said, the grossest thing ever?

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
No is uh? Is Seth better off right now? As?
Is this a long term sustainable heel character? That's because
you already said he you know, he deserves more credit
than he's getting. And if you aren't sure of that,
check out cesslon feed. I'm not saying he's he's wrong,

(01:03:48):
but you know, I recommend to somebody of sess stature,
he'd not not argue down like that and uh, you know,
just stas social media and let let the story speak
for itself if it's going to work out on the
long term instead of telling you that. But and it's
a little un becoming a someone of his stature, But
I know that's the generation he's from, the era we're in.
So all that said, though I'm with you, I think

(01:04:09):
that's I've been more of a fan assessed character than most.
I think I've been higher on it than average, and
I think it's a relatively long term sustainable character form
because it's a character that can have different people float
in and out of his his his realm, in his
his group of people joining him, turning on and all that.
Murphy another guy who was you know, teasing, not being

(01:04:31):
all in, all in with what was being requested, and
then they pull back on that. I know Chris to
Joseph talked about in my interview with him my Torch
talk for VP members last week. One of a big
changes that he said what happened to fins Man were
for any reason not around in the current creative team
otherwise had one hundred percent control is there'd be more
attention to long term detailed storytelling. There would be less

(01:04:52):
you know, just changing on a whim for whatever the reasons.
Our Vince does that they'd stick to more long term storylines.
The Murphy thing. Do you think they play I know
those seeds and they'll go back to it or do
you think they've moved away from it? And do you
agree with me? Just I guess on the main topic.
The initial topic got brought up, which is That's part
of what's interesting about Seth character is he can have

(01:05:12):
different people join and leave, kind of like the hurt
business says we talked about earlier.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
I think at some point Murphy will split because I
think that the idea would be to have a Seth
Rollins Murphy rivalry, to set up Murphy as a as
a considerable singles guy. But at the same time, like
I'm not anxious for it, like like I like where
Murphy's at, I like Murphy being in there with Seth.

(01:05:39):
I think I don't think there could be any consideration
to turning Seth back to babyface anytime soon, you know.
I mean, I think when people are critical of Seth
as a heel, like we're acting like we didn't all
ask for this when he was a good guy, like
the to me, this is a very organic heel. It's

(01:06:01):
all based on the way people were truly feeling. And
I do think that this is the best spot for
Seth Rollins, But I also think it's the best spot
for Buddy. I think that I think that keeping them
together and maybe maybe using Buddy to get Seth passed
some trouble times, like if Dominic beats him, maybe Seth
goes into the back, into that weird depressive state where

(01:06:21):
his hair is all frizzy and he's, you know, kind
of coming to that ring with the thousand yards stare,
and maybe Buddy's there to kind of help help coach
him back or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wadekellor podcast at
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If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(01:06:56):
our mailbank segments, that same email applies wad Keller Podcast,
pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us
know what you think of what we're saying, and let
us know what you want us to talk about and
ask us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch
dot com. All right, let's let's talk about the women's

(01:07:19):
title situation because that kind of ties in to both
Raw and SmackDown as we work our way over to
a thin by the way, very few contributions to UH
to Summer Slim on the SmackDown side of things. I
don't know if they'll be adding to that Friday or not.
But do you have anything else besides Braun and Fiend
and then the women's tuntle match, Oh, Mandy and Sonya hair.

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):
Hair many and yeah, oh yeah, well.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
We'll get to that. To any other match besides those
that you think will be added.

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
I would imagine there'll be something for the tag title, Yeah,
you know, and I would I would think too that
I'm surprised they're doing aj styles versus Jeff Harty on SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Yes, me too.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
Yeah, maybe maybe something happened in that match and it
gets moved to SummerSlam. I'm also surprised Matt Reddlell is
not being used at SummerSlam, that we're not seeing a
Baron krbyin Matt Riddle match or something like that at SummerSlam. Man,
who knows, Maybe maybe that all gets added. We also,
you have to imagine there'll be one or two pre
show matches that we haven't heard about yet, So you know,

(01:08:20):
Kevin Owens is also not on the show, so you know,
maybe maybe it'll be uh a Kevin Owens match in
a Matt Riddle match, who knows.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
And also we should say we got payback coming up
in a week. So not only not only SummerSlam look
pretty long with the eight matches announced already, but you know,
in a way, you got to save some of the
things you just mentioned are all kind of ready made,
plug it into a pay per view a week later
type matches, and we might have just looked assessed the
clocked you know how long Summer Flame is going to go,

(01:08:53):
and said, all right, we've just got to make some
tough choices here, Let's save you know, Matt Riddle, Let's
save icy title. You know, some of these things you
can just to pay back and then at least you
don't have to completely regenerate a whole lineup or just
do kind of the lame a bunch of rematches a
week later. Either.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
Feeling very Tuesday in Texas.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
It does, yes, yep, all right, So to the women's
style situation, though, we've got Sasha and Oscar over on
the raw side of things, and then Bailey and Oscar
on the SmackDown side of things. You know, it seems
like every pairing even we had hints of it with
the Iconics are a small little tease of it. Are
are breaking up or not getting along or having misunderstandings?

(01:09:30):
The Riote squad live in Ruby. Hopefully they've rewatched the
footage to clear up any misunderstandings that is available. I'd
like people so much to let them know they can
rewatch the replay and see it wasn't wasn't anything we're
arguing about. But evertheless, everybody, every pairing is like breaking
up or teasing breaking up, and we got a little
bit of that with it. Was was interesting when Bailey

(01:09:51):
and Sash were were falsely pretended to be generous and
you go first, no, you go first, and the way
that played out I thought was really interesting. What did
you read into that? And how does we kind of
have to talk about both these matches at the same time.
How do you see this playing out? Do you think
Bailey and Sasha both retained? Does OSCO win both or
one or the other?

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
And if so, which, well I think that weird. Bailey
Sasha attention has always kind of existed. I mean they've
they've for months now, you know, every time they volunteer
the other one for a match, the one goes huh
like that, you know, and that kind of always that
continues to exist. I think they're probably it felt like
there was a plan to break them up sooner, and
when they noticed it was working, they decided against it.

(01:10:30):
But they've still done those little hints throughout, which I
don't mind. You know, I think it reminds you that
you know they're bad guys, so you you can't trust
even your friend when your friend's a bad guy. But
all that said, I don't I don't want to see
Sasha and Bailey broken up at all at this point,
you know. I think that I think that there is

(01:10:50):
a lot of juice left with Sasha and Bailey. I
think that they're an unexpected surprise how good they are.
I don't think I think you could expect them to
be good, but the level to which I mean there
are many shows where they're the best act on the show.
I would say most shows that they're on. You know, lately,

(01:11:11):
they've been WWE as a whole has been amping up,
I think, but for I mean a good a solid
month to six weeks, it felt like Sasha and Bailey
were the best thing on television, and they continue to
be good. So I really hope that the plan is
not to break them up. You know, there's plenty of
opportunity for tension to build when you've got Oscar as

(01:11:33):
the opponent for both people. But I also I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
For me real quick, Sam, And it's fun seeing two
heels play the same con on one another and then
willfully be ignorant or in denial that the same game
they're playing is being played on them, or trying to think, well,
I'll still ultimately outsmart her. So there's these two friends,
but they're each conning each other, yet there's still enough

(01:11:58):
that they still forgive and bond because they know there's
power in sticking together. And I think that's a really
interesting dynamic.

Speaker 3 (01:12:04):
Yeah, yeah, that they know. But and it's almost like
it almost goes to both of their motivations that the
reason that they stick together is not because they're such
great friends, but because they both know that individually they're
better off as a unit than should they separate. So

(01:12:25):
they're both ignoring that the other one is kind of
being underhanded in self interest.

Speaker 1 (01:12:31):
Or that's entirely possible. It's also you can add this
layer of they actually respect each other more because they
both kind of are you know, con women in their
own way, and they sort of admire the other person
playing the same type of game that they are, and
that actually, in a weird way bonds them as like
minded criminals.

Speaker 3 (01:12:52):
Yeah, I mean yeah, And I think that for that act,
I think they either both have to be champions or
neither has to be champions. I think if one of
them walks out of SummerSlam with a title and the
other does not, then clearly we're on the road to
this act breaking up. Like it doesn't work if there

(01:13:12):
is a clear distinction that one is better than the other.
So that and I don't want to see that happen.
I mean I personally, I think the most interesting thing
that you could do, and you know, you never see
it coming, is I would have Oscar win both titles
and then you know, and then go on And I
think that would add to the sort of tension of

(01:13:33):
going into Payback and having OSCA and Shana be the
team that Sasha and Bailey fight at Payback, you know,
and the potential that OSCA could hold every major women's
championship in the in the company, and you know, I
mean Sasha and Bailey have been on both Ron SmackDown
the whole time, and I don't think it's gotta be

(01:13:54):
a permanent thing. You know, you look at when Becky
had both titles, you know, she had both titles for
a month, she lost one of them. She kept the
Raw Women's title, and and and we went onto business
as usual. And I think that I think that that's
that's that's the way I would go in order to
not only do what I think is the most interesting thing,
but to help the entire women's division, but also to

(01:14:17):
preserve Sasha and Bailey.

Speaker 8 (01:14:26):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me, along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests, live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good,
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube
or stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
How do you I feel about what they're doing with
Shane Basler and do you want her to land as
a heel or as a face or extend. I don't
think it's a I don't think it's good for very
many people long term, but extend being sort of a
tweener where she's just fighting in her own self interest
and you sort of root for against her based on
who her opponent is, which is kind of where she

(01:15:20):
is now.

Speaker 3 (01:15:21):
Yeah, I feel like watching Raw, there was this kind
of moment where she's been a pretty clear heel, but
then all of a sudden, when she teamed with OSCA,
there was something where you were like, yeah, I could
cheer for this person, you know, I could cheer for
this person in this circumstance, And I feel like that's
something you could explore. I like the idea of Osca

(01:15:44):
and shanea Basler winning the Women's Tag Championship and having
Oscar have both singles titles, So there is that sort
of friction intention where Shane's ultimate goal is to defeat OSCA,
but at the same time, maybe Shana finds herself enjoying
being a tag champion with OSCA, and I think you

(01:16:06):
know that again, that's one of those short term things.
You don't have to be Tag Champions for a year,
but having to be Tag Champions for a month and
and see where that story takes you. You know, that's
what I feel like with Shanas, and she's still relatively
a newcomer to the main roster. She hasn't done that
much on the main roster. You could kind of just

(01:16:27):
see where it naturally goes. Uh, in terms of being
a good guy or a bad guy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Yeah, again, I like the idea of Shane Basler as
a babyface badass playing off in a no son sense,
playing off of heels by being just no nonsense and
not buying their their crap, and fans you know, backing
her because of that. The introduction of her training partners

(01:16:56):
gives her more of a heel tinge because they can
interfere on her behalf. So yeah, I'm I'm interested in
where she's going. You know, we talk about winters and
losers or the pandemic era. She's been one of the
losers in the sense that, you know, her match style
without fans and without her ability to just generate noise,
it's not her style. And I know from talking to
wrestlers in WWE during this pandemic era, one of the

(01:17:18):
things that w has valued and encouraged is you have
to generate your own noise in matches, you know, and
We've seen that happen, and not being able to yell
at fans has led to announcers, you know, the commentators
getting being targets of it or just you know, random
yelling like Osca. So for her, it just hasn't worked out.
But I'm I'm curious how people would react to her

(01:17:40):
in person when that time comes, and maybe this this
new setup will kind of allow for that and if
because I think there's a possibility that that people would
look at Chain as like the more likable, more cool
roder RAUSEI and they'd be like so behind her in
a way that kind of like you know, he heels
who fans get behind and it's sort of Chain. Just
the booking plans, I think there's a chance that would

(01:18:02):
be happening with her right now and that might force
that might cause do to be to change the way
they portray her if they wanted her to be healed,
or it might cause them to change their booking plans
for her, if they said, Hey, we're onto something here,
we didn't expect your thoughts on that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:16):
I also think that Shana, you know, Shana didn't truly
become the star that she became an NXT until it
started becoming clear that she was going to tear through
the roster. And I don't think Shana has made that
impression on Raw yet. You know, Shana is still this
person who could potentially tear through the roster. But I

(01:18:39):
think the people that don't watch NXT are sitting there
looking at this character who says that she's dangerous and
she did very well in that one elimination chamber match.
But other than that, there's no proof. There's no proof
that she's going to tear through the roster. So you know,

(01:18:59):
I I think that that's actually a big part of it.
I think that it's not just being in front of
an audience, but it's showing people, it's getting behind this
character as yes, this is the most dangerous woman on
the roster, or it's this character and it's the Oska character.
Those are the two most dangerous characters. We need to

(01:19:20):
find out who is the best because right now, you know, SHANEA.
Basler is just a character that is potentially dangerous, but
it's not something that we've seen on the main roster.

Speaker 1 (01:19:31):
Yeah, good point. Is Raw Underground a good setting or
a distraction for her? I mean, we can use this
as a little bit of a sidebar discussion on Roonderground,
but because does roonderground feel like a place where a
main eventor can be created? But ultimately they end up
moving to the main roster working a more traditional style.

(01:19:52):
Does someone who's already established on the main roster like
Shane Basler gain some extra credibility by going in there?
Or is there a chance the Naya Jackson? And by
the way, you could see Basler NI Jack's added to
the show or added to pay back too, depending on
what they do with the takes situation.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
I was hoping for Jack's pat buck, but that's just.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
I can relate. So yeah, anyway, your your your thoughts
on that.

Speaker 3 (01:20:16):
I actually do. I think that that's the real strength
of Raw Underground, you know, And I I'm again, this
doesn't do anything for my show reputation, but I and
I surprised myself watching Raw this week. I looked at
the clock and it was nine thirty and I was like,
oh my god, when is the Underground going to start?
Because I wanted to see what was going to happen

(01:20:37):
in the Underground. Yeah. Actually, I actually found myself looking
forward to it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
I hope you didn't tune out and then tune back
in at ten, because it would already be over by
the time Shane keeps saying it starts.

Speaker 3 (01:20:46):
It's the second time he's done, he said, the debut
of the Undergredo. I don't understand it. They starting at
fifty six and then they go to break at like ten,
and they don't go back to it until ten twenty
and something.

Speaker 1 (01:20:57):
So how does he do that? Here's my theory. It's
just it's post production and it's an estimate and Shane
keeps blurting it out and no one's catching it, or
it's a joke on chain, or they're looking at the
minute by minutes and it's not And I haven't seen
I haven't actually studied this. So but if the minute
by minutes aren't doing well, they don't want to open
the top of the hour with it, and so they
plan to, but then they dope by the time the
show happens, by the time the show airs, and they

(01:21:19):
kind of rearrange it to keep it out of a
prime spot because they think it's more prudent to put
something in that spot. But it is.

Speaker 3 (01:21:26):
It is weird, it's interesting. Yeah, yeah, but that said,
that's because, uh, the first week, I got sold on it,
and I think, like with Raw Underground, it's one of
those things where I think a lot of people that
don't like it still after three weeks don't like it
because of the description of what it was going to be.

(01:21:49):
I think after the first week of Raw Underground, a
lot of the people online that didn't like it didn't
like it because they read before Raw started that they
were going to do Brawl for All again, and they
thought that was stupid. So they were already sort of
in this mind space where they're like, I'm not gonna
like this. And also a lot of people have been

(01:22:11):
conditioned to just whenever WWE hit you with something that's
outside of the box, the first reaction is this is
so WWE, this is so dumb, I don't like this,
and then you kind of have to train yourself to
actually watch it and allow yourself to maybe actually enjoy it.
I think the strengths are exactly what your question was,

(01:22:33):
you know. I think that I realized the strength of
it when I watched Ziggler the first week, and even
more so this week. I think that the Dolf Ziggler
character does not lend itself to reminding us that this
is a guy who was a decorated collegiate wrestler at
Kent State. Like you know, the the Dolf Ziggler does

(01:22:56):
not come across as a serious wrestling He comes across
as a guy who knows how to win matches through cheating.
He comes across as an athletic guy, but not sort
of a guy who has a real wrestling background. And
then they had this raw underground thing, and all Shane
said has to say is, you know, he wrestled at

(01:23:16):
Kent State. And now you're watching Dolf do double legs,
and now you're watching him, you know, pull off real
sort of wrestling moves and seeing him do this stuff
that wouldn't fit with the character in a standard ring
with ropes, and and you go, oh, this doll segular
thing is pretty cool. You know, you see the Viking
Raiders being goofballs on TV, but then you look at

(01:23:41):
them in the underground and they're just kicking people's asses
and you're like, oh, I forgot, that's right. You can't
mess with the Viking Raiders or or you know what
the Hurt business did the first week or what Shana
did the second week, or all that stuff. I think
that it's not gonna work every time. I think it
is absolutely working for Dolph, and I think that if
done correctly, that for certain talent, the Raw Underground can

(01:24:06):
bring out this badass side of them that can absolutely
translate to the main roster. I think the Dolf Ziggler
that we saw on the Underground is so much more
compelling than the Dolph Ziggler that we were seeing on
Monday Night Raw right before the Underground, that if he

(01:24:26):
were to leave the Underground and come back into the
main arena, I still want to see him in black
jeans and a Motley Crue T shirt, Like I want
to see that sort of badass. I went to Kent
State Dolf Ziggler and the not the wrestling character dolfh Ziggler.
So I think that I think that it can. I
think that if done properly and if they feel the

(01:24:49):
need to do it, I think it could be a
place for Shanna Basler's character to grow. I think it's
the perfect place to introduce people like Marina Shafer and
Jessman Duke. I think there are a lot of applic
pats bra Underground that if used properly can be very
very effective.

Speaker 1 (01:25:06):
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(01:25:29):
starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat
yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug free listening experience
with a VIP or Patreon membership. All right, let's let's
talk about a very different women's storyline Mandy Rose in
Sonya Deville hair versus hair? Is is this U shave ball?

(01:25:55):
Is this shave it short? And who? We talked about
the odds of Orton and Drew. One of the odds
that Mandy Rose walks out bald and compared to the
odds of Sonya, I.

Speaker 3 (01:26:08):
Mean zero, okay, are the odds that Rose walks out
It's no chance that Manny Rose walks out bald. It
is the odds.

Speaker 4 (01:26:16):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:26:16):
I mean, I love this story because it's just it's
just it's not overthought. The pacing's right. There's not too
much or too little being put into it. Everything makes sense.
I mean, I looked at my wife after when when
Sonya the episode of smack Down, when Sonya jumped Mandy
and she started cutting her hair, and then I thought

(01:26:37):
of the way like Sonia dresses when she's in the
ring but not wrestling, like when she does like the
Miz TV and stuff like that, and I'm like, I
looked at my wife and I was like, Sonya Deville
is going to look so good with a g I
Jane bald haircut and wearing the suit because she wears

(01:26:58):
like suits like those really like fitted suits and a
buzz cut. I was like, she's not gonna look like
anything else, but it's gonna but she's gonna look great.
I think that that she's gonna look tougher. I think
that I think that her her her face is suited
for it. I I don't think it's gonna look like
a joke. I think Sonya's going bald, and I think

(01:27:19):
that's gonna be her new look. I don't think it's
gonna be one of those uh you know, free birds
or kurd Angle thing where they're putting the wig under
the headgear type deal where it's like, oh, I don't
or see him punk with the mask on. I think
that that this is a way that makes sense to
have Sonya come in and by the way, and then
of course last week on SmackDown when they finally officially

(01:27:41):
announced a hair versus hair match, my wife looked at
me like I was some kind of like psychic and
I was like, no, Es, sometimes it just makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
Sometimes that's funny.

Speaker 3 (01:27:51):
But I, uh, yeah, yeah, I think that I think
that Sonya is going bald, and I think that it's
actually gonna be an awesome, awesome look for her.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Again, when we talk about people who I think this
is second tier rising during pandemic era, but Sony Deville's
had some standout moments and yes for her to be
able to differentiate herself from SHANEA. Basler in some way,
and I mean I was interested in seeing her, you know,
be a babyface character. But whatever wherever she goes, I

(01:28:22):
mean I think she's shown she's good enough on the microphone.
You got to figure out a way to invest in
her and and get more out of her than just
being this kind of role player in the kind of
middle of the women's roster, floating in and out of
losing feuds. And then Mandy Rose too. I mean, what
have you thought about the way she's presented herself and
talked about herself. Does you have to be so careful
when you say, you know, I worked two jobs in

(01:28:43):
college and had to earn a bikini contest victory. You know,
it's the same some of the same stuff with Dominic
where it's like, yeah, but you still got to start
on third base with those looks, and you know, distract
the umpires you were stealing home, or distract the catchers
you're stealing home. Like It's hard to build sympathy in
that way. But I think she's done a pretty good

(01:29:04):
job showing that she's willing to stand up for herself
and wanting to be seen as something other than Kelly
Kelly part two and how she's portrayed. How do you
feel about that?

Speaker 3 (01:29:13):
Yeah, I mean, I agree, I think that I'm not
turned off by it yet, but I'm also sitting there like,
you know, and this is no offense to anybody, but
like the pretty girl telling you how hard she's worked
to be the pretty girl, Like it's just never going
to click. Yeah, it's that you can't tell that's not
a story, Like it's not ever going to be a

(01:29:34):
story you could tell. But what you could do is
tell the story. I mean, I think that I think
having Otis there helps Mandy immensely just in the image
of who Mandy is. I love the Otis and Mandy act.
I hope that they're not trying to get away from
that at all, because I think it's I think that
it's it's really really good. I think just I think

(01:29:55):
Mandy being portrayed as relatable and honest is probably going
to be more effective than trying to convince people of
how hard working she is. I think that that's just
I think that's that's just the route that I think
more people. You know, you don't have to have sat

(01:30:16):
there and made every sacrifice, and I've made more sacrifice
than you. Well, I made more sacrifices than you. It's like,
if she's cool and she's you know, and she's with
Otis who we all love Otis, and she's relatable and
she doesn't feel like you know, she thinks she's better
than anybody. That's all she needs to be right that like,
then then then she's good. So yeah, I don't I

(01:30:39):
don't think I would go very far down this road
of how hard she's worked.

Speaker 1 (01:30:47):
Yes, I think you're the way that you navigated that
was very fair and I think very accurate. And let
you know, it's just what you said. Let her. Let
her pivot now to she's kind and nice and honest
and all of that, and move on and and part
of that is the way you know Sonya's is the

(01:31:09):
whole storyline with Sonya sort of almost demanded something along
those lines for her to address. But now that she has,
they can move on. What is what is Mandy's upside
on this woman's roster with so much up in the air.
I mean, Charlotte will be back, but you know Becky,
who knows Rhonda, who knows you know, Paint Royce. Maybe

(01:31:30):
they're teasing a little breakup with with Billy Kate kind
of taking her for granted, blindsiding her a little bit
with the net substitution and being super nice about it,
but maybe being taken advantage of who is Mandy at
the top ear list or not for somebody who could
actually end up being that that top tier singles baby

(01:31:51):
face or do you think she's already there in a way.

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
I mean, I think Mandy's very, very good, but I
almost feel like she's a different category. I feel like
because of her connection with Otis, I like there is
something about Mandy and Otis that to me is magical storytelling.
Like I think that it just works. I think every

(01:32:13):
person in the audience wants to be Otis, believes Mandy.
Like we've seen so many times, you know, the big
guy gets taken advantage of by the pretty girl and
blah blah blah, and it's just like to watch the
story play out in this refreshing positive way. I think
has made both Otis and Mandy such bigger stars. You know,

(01:32:37):
I think that there's nobody that could deny that had
WrestleMania been in the stadium full of people this year,
that the two biggest moments would have been Drew winning
the title, and arguably just as big it would have
been Otis and Mandy embracing you know. I mean, I
think you would have gotten like a hardy pop for
Otis and Mandy, you know, kissing or whatever for the

(01:32:59):
first time. You know, I think that I think that
WWE right now needs unpredictability, needs fresh faces, and needs
to do things that maybe you wouldn't expect them to do,
but does feel like something that fans would want them
to do. You know, I think that the money in

(01:33:19):
the bank for too long has become you know, if
you go back and look at money in the bank
cash ins, right, and you look at Dolf, who we
talked about, you look at Dolf, you look at Sea Himpunk,
you look at Daniel Brian, you look at some of
these cash ins Miz Edge, you know, and Seth Rollins,
and you go, that's what was magic about the money
in the bank. It was guys that You're like, there's

(01:33:40):
no way he's winning the title and he's definitely not
doing it tonight. But because of that briefcase, it was like,
oh my god, everything's up in the air, and where
do we go from here. I this is gonna sound insane, maybe,
but I really think there is an opening here. I
think that the bron Brace storyline which get into would

(01:34:01):
be so much better without the Universal Championship, and you know,
I think a universal title change on a SmackDown show,
not a pay per view, would turn a lot of heads,
which they want to do. You know, I've been advocating
for that on my podcast. You know, put the title on,
Baron Corbyn, put it on, some put it on whoever,
just just just start the ball rolling so it feels fresh.

(01:34:24):
But you know, I mean, I think Otis cashing in
his briefcase and becoming the Universal Champion and Mandy Rose
being the Elizabeth to Otis's Randy Savage. I think that's
that it could be absolutely amazing. And that's one of

(01:34:50):
the great benefits of having two world champions that on
one show you can have Randy Orton or Drew McIntyre
as your champion, and that leaves you open to have
Otis over here as as your universal champion and have
many Rose at aside and and like, you know, you
want a universal champion that you can put on a poster,

(01:35:12):
right that you can you can uh uh have dance
in front of the media and and get people talking. Well,
while Otis is unconventional, you put Otis and Mandy Rose together,
every morning show in the country is gonna want to
wild Otis and you know, amazing Mandy like like people.
It's an act that could be your main event, championship act.

(01:35:37):
I know we're so far off of the Summer Slam topic,
but that's that's for me to answer your question. That's
what I see for Mandy Rose. I see Mandy being
the Elizabeth two, Otis's Randy Savage, although you know, I
would say that Randy sad Maybe Otis isn't the iconic

(01:35:59):
wrestler that ranes and Mandy has more wrestling ability than
Elizabeth does. But when you combine the two packages, maybe
even out somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:36:07):
I totally know what you're saying, and I think he also,
you know, pulls in some comparisons with George the animal
Steel and the dynamic with Elizabeth and George Steel are
people right.

Speaker 9 (01:36:18):
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Speaker 1 (01:37:36):
What's different and similar about Liz and George Steele versus
Mandy and Otis because I think it's natural draw comparisons,
but I also think there's differences, so to talk about
that and what you would do in order to refine
that the relationship between Mandy and otis also in contrast

(01:37:56):
to what Elizabeth and George were, which this might have
a little too much at times.

Speaker 3 (01:38:01):
You're right and I think that, and I think that
where it gets different is what you were actually talking
to Christa Joseph about on your interview with him, and
that was I thought that the Fast Times thing that
they did was great, just the idea that like Mandy
is attracted to Otis, Mandy has fallen in love with

(01:38:21):
Otis to the point that she is physically attracted to
this guy. It's not this, you know, beautiful Goddess is
a nice person and has sympathy for this guy that
gets picked on or sees this wacky George the animal
steal and goes like, oh, I want to help you. No,
this is pity or pity, yeah, I pity you. There
is no pity, there is no sympathy, There isn't any

(01:38:44):
of that. Mandy is attracted to Otis and that gives
Otis the confidence and then Mandy is in turn, in
turn attracted to that confidence, you know, and and and yeah,
I mean I think that's the difference that Mandy and
Mandy has done. This is what Mandy has done an
excellent job at is making you feel like when you

(01:39:08):
see them together, that it's a relationship of equals. That
Mandy does not see herself as better than otis, because
even if Elizabeth is the most wonderful person in the world,
she pities George the animal Steel. On some level, she
thinks she's better than George the animal Steel. Like you
don't pity somebody and go like, oh, we're on the

(01:39:30):
same level. You pity them because oh, you know they
need there's something there.

Speaker 1 (01:39:36):
Or patronize even short of pity, but you're patronized. Oh yes,
you're adorable.

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
Right, because you do not see yourself as equals. At
no point did anybody sit there and go like, oh,
miss Elizabeth is she's attracted to George the animal steal.
She wants to date George the animal Steel. She's gonna
marry George the animal Steel. Like, that's not what that
relationship was. And I think that, I mean, that's why, like,
in my mind, I see a match Made in Heaven

(01:40:05):
wedding at a pay per view between Otis and Mandy,
and this is the first time, you know, when you
look at Randy and Liz, it was the only time
that you had a wrestling wedding that you didn't have
to interrupt with shenanigans. I mean, you know, you had
your your your thing after the pay per view to
lead to the Jake Roberts thing. But you people at
Madison Square Garden just wanted to see Macho Man and

(01:40:28):
Miss Elizabeth get married. That's that. And they just wanted
that happy moment. And I think that you missed the
WrestleMania moment. But man, you put the title on Otis
and then come January February, he proposes to Mandy, and

(01:40:49):
you go to WrestleMania with the Otis and Mandy wedding,
and you do the wedding straight. You don't have somebody
ruin it, you don't have somebody interfere, You just have
the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:40:59):
I mean it's man to me. I think that that's
it's outside the box, it's unexpected, and I think that's
that's how you build unconventional superstars in an unconventional time.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
Is has Otis been defined down or is he still
pliable and definable in terms of how good he is
as a singles wrestler. Should he win money in the
bank on what? For the sake of the gimmick is
typically a fluke win. Do you just portray him as,
oh my god, he won another one, oh my god,
he want another one? Or do you portray it as

(01:41:34):
oh my god. Outside of the tag team, he's matured
into this actual, you know, fun loving, gregarious, physical, imposing,
talented threat who's surprising us month after month by fending
off wrestlers who everybody had as heavy favorites against him.
But he's actually better than he even gave himself credit for.

(01:41:56):
Can you tell the story where he goes from underdog
to proving himself as he's actually a pretty credible universal champion.

Speaker 3 (01:42:04):
Absolutely, I think that the underdog thing you would only
need to last for i'd be very very shortly. I
don't think that once he's champion he stays the underdog
at all. I mean, you look at him, and when
he's not goofing around, he's an imposing guy. He's huge,
he's athletic. Maybe he doesn't do the caterpillar all that often.

(01:42:25):
You know, maybe he kind of starts to tone down
the hijinks a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:42:29):
Yep, Lorady picks his spots a little more.

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
Exactly, picks his spot. Yeah, he doesn't completely take it
out because the people's elbow always worked, and that's you know,
that's a silly move. But Otis is super athletic, Otis
is imposing. Otis is powerful. Like you know, if Otis
were a heel, he would be a monster. There's no
reason that you you don't look at Otis and go, oh,

(01:42:54):
anybody could beat him. Like you look at Otis and
you go, yeah, he could beat most of the roster,
especially because your roster is not the same size that
they used to be. There's a lot of undersized talent there.
Not undersized anymore, but undersized to the standard of say,
you know, nineteen ninety five or nineteen ninety three, even
you know, the Hogan era, the land of the monsters

(01:43:18):
that WWE once was. That's not what you're looking at
in the WWE today. And so when you get a
guy the size of Otis, he's not a clumsy oath
there's no just because he's been a tag team kind
of comedy character doesn't mean he has to stay that way,
and it also doesn't mean you have to change him

(01:43:39):
so much that he becomes a mean monster. He can
just be a guy who like you know, I mean,
he's a college athlete, he's a real wrestler, Like he
works out with Chad Gable. You know, he's he's the
real deal. He just happens to be as big as
a house.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
Well, you can also tell a story with him that
he just gets better because he's training with somebody who
helps him get better. I haven't put more than the
five seconds of thought over the last five seconds into that.
Who that could be? Does anyone jump out to you?
I mean besides Tucker.

Speaker 3 (01:44:13):
Yeah, I don't even think that I would go that
way because I would almost make it seem like, oh,
he has this skill set that we never even noticed.

Speaker 1 (01:44:22):
That's a good point, yeah, because I.

Speaker 3 (01:44:24):
Wouldn't want him as champion to be growing into the
person that we will eventually see. I would literally, I mean,
he wins the money in the bank on a fluke,
he then has to defend the title against the former champion,
He beats him, and from that moment forward, he's using
this skill set that maybe we really didn't see before,
but he's always had.

Speaker 1 (01:44:44):
All that said, my vote if I'm gonna do what
I brought up, Even though you make a very good point,
Daniel Cormier, I think he'd be fun.

Speaker 3 (01:44:50):
Oh, he'd be amazing. That would be great, Yes, yes,
that would be awesome.

Speaker 11 (01:44:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:55):
Yeah. You don't have to wait for the way Keller
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(01:45:17):
the show, and it will also analyze key segments and
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(01:45:39):
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(01:46:03):
let's let's shift because we may see odas show up
in the main event of Summer Slimmer, the co main
event bron Stroman and the Fiend. It is the main
event of the uh OF. It's the There's so much
to talk about when it comes to this match and
the hype that went into it. Alexa Bliss, I mean,

(01:46:25):
you take your evaluation on what you think of the
build up and all the moving parts right now, and
where do you think this lands.

Speaker 3 (01:46:37):
Well, you know, I think there's a lot of moving parts.
I think moving parts is the right description. And based
on SmackDown last week, it started to feel like you
were looking at a double turn like it started to
feel like you were looking at a babyface Fiend with
Alexa and a heel broun Stroman, which I wasn't against,
by the way, which when I saw it in front
of me, I was like, yeah, I mean, this does

(01:46:58):
make sense. You know, I don't know how sold I
am on a baby face Fiend, but I do know
that I have thought for a while that braun Stroman
needs to be a heel, and I just really think
he does. I know for me, and part of the
reason why I think that the Universal title should go
to somebody like Otis or even go to a Baron

(01:47:18):
Corbin who can then defend it against Matt Riddle or
Otis or whoever is that I'm far more interested in
what the future of the Fiend and Alexa Bliss is
than I am of anything to do with Braun Stroman.
I don't, and maybe it's just because of the way

(01:47:39):
it worked out last time. I'm not psyched about the
idea of the Fiend being Universal Champion anytime soon. And
that's only because I like the Fiend so much, so,
you know, I don't need him to win this match.

(01:48:01):
But you know, I mean, if you're talking about an
Otis cash In, I would love to see a thing
where maybe maybe Braun does win the match, but it's
worse off for it. You know, it's just left in
a heap, even though he's technically still the champion Otis
cash Is in. Braun freaks out, and that's when the

(01:48:22):
Fiend can finally Braun Is finally broken, and the Fiend
can can bring Braun into his stable and and maybe
start to rebuild Braun. If that's the direction that they
were to go in.

Speaker 1 (01:48:36):
Yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of the Universal title
being in this feud because it doesn't feel like it
needs to be. That said, it is, yeah, and it
where the Universal title ends up, I'm curious about it
is a key part of the dynamic going on here.
I don't think the Fiend is done enough to explain

(01:48:57):
why that Universal title means enough to him to even
be bothered by it. It seems like that wouldn't be
a primary focus for somebody like him and Braun you know,
sort of accidentally fell into it. As I talked about
with Christ Joseph last week. It wasn't, you know, part
of the planets Still the last second, they didn't even
have anything for him for WrestleMania, and then all of
a sudden, here he is the Universal Champion all summer.
So the quicker they get that belt out of that mix,

(01:49:19):
the better. And that's where I mean. If they can
get otis Universal champ coming out of Summer Slam and
use that as a selling point for Payback and use
that as a I think it can be a ratings
hook for them going into the fall season and they
got NBA competition in addition to Major League Baseball. There's
so much going on right now on Friday nights doing

(01:49:42):
something to shake up the universal title picture and just
you get a whole new made event act if the
Universal title is away from Bron and Bray, and then
you have a whole new dynamic of Bron and if
Braun ends up with Bray and they're both heels, and
Bron goes heel and Braun is the heel going after Otis.

Speaker 3 (01:49:59):
I That's what I'm thinking, Like, Yeah, the idea of
Otis as a good guy with Mandy against braun Stroman,
and that's also how you get Otis to a point
where he's not an underdog anymore. Once he beats braun
Stroman for real the first time, he's not this underdog
guy anymore. But I think you could get multiple Otis

(01:50:22):
braunz Stroman matches without having to flip the title back
and forth.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:50:26):
I think that that's a match you could have at
Payback and then again in September.

Speaker 1 (01:50:31):
And then Alexa Bliss if Mandy's involved with Otis and
a feud with Braun and Bray and alexis in that
mix I'm not sure the chemistry and how that works
with Mandy and Bliss, but it gives you another piece
to play with.

Speaker 3 (01:50:44):
Yeah, yeah, I love I'm not one hundred percent. I
haven't sold myself one hundred percent on the idea of
Braun factioned up with Bray. That's a possibility. I do
love the idea of Alexa Blas staying with the fiend
and kind of evolving into a different character. Yeah, and

(01:51:07):
kind of going darker. You know. I she's she's so good,
and I think that her level of skill has been
forgotten based on the fact that she hasn't really done
much in months. You know, I think that people are
forgetting that her run as the Raw Women's Champion was
like one of the best runs that that title had.

(01:51:28):
Her run when she wasn't wrestling, when she was the
authority figure, when she was the host of Wrestlemanian stuff,
and she was just delivering every time she was on
the microphone. You know, I think that an evolution of
her character would be it'd be a good time for it.
And you know, I mean, I think that you don't
need a crowd to tell you what the reaction was.

(01:51:48):
I think that as far as the Swamp match went,
the Alexa Bliss cameo was probably the most well received
part of that match. It felt like, to me, anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:52:00):
Does she what is the story then if Bliss goes
with Bray and the Fiend, and how does that change
the brave Fiend character to her? Her line? If I understand,
a moth to a flame just just floats out there,
you know, just it's lingering that Okay, She's absolutely created
the framework for for her, for us to believe she's

(01:52:24):
going there, because again she has the acting jobs to
pull it off. I what what what is the play
that out A little bit project out where that leads?

Speaker 3 (01:52:33):
Well, I see the theend. I first of all, not
sister Abigail, like you know, yeah, Sister Abgail is an entity,
like you know, to just say like, oh, this whole
time Alexa Bliss has been Sister Abigail makes no sense
and it just there's no reason to do it. But
I do see like just calling her Alexi instead of
Alexa Bliss or something like that just a real because
she's not changing who she is. It's an evolution of

(01:52:55):
the same person. But I see the Fiend and Alexa
Bliss as like Chucky and Tiffany from the later Child's
Play movies. You know, I see, I see the potential
of Alexa Bliss being almost a female equivalent of the Fiend.
I I could. I think that there could be some

(01:53:16):
real interesting potential of Alexa Bliss haunting the women's division
the way the Fiend has haunted the men's women's division,
and the lights going out in a women's match and
having Alexa show up, and you know, and and and
this beautiful woman has this mask and stuff on. Now
where she's become this, this, this grotesque beast. This she's

(01:53:39):
got her own fiend get up that she's got, and
now she's attacking the women on the roster. Now, SmackDown
is being haunted by both the Fiend and Alexi or
whatever name she would go by.

Speaker 6 (01:54:04):
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(01:54:26):
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Speaker 1 (01:54:54):
Does everything we're talking about, in the way we're talking
about it make it feel like WWE is in a
different place than they've ever been storytelling wise? Or is
it just a slightly amplified EBB and flow, you know,
part of the ebb and flow of WWB over the decades,
considering Kane an undertaker, et cetera. I mean, you can
pull out a number of others, those two probably two
most famous, you know, you can do all the way

(01:55:15):
down to like Papashanka level stuff. But does this feel
like Dobtie's playing in a new sandbox or just in
the EBB and flow? It's a little bit amplified, but
it's it's territory they've been in before.

Speaker 3 (01:55:24):
I wouldn't say it's entirely entirely unique, but I would
say for this era, it's fairly unique. You know, I
think that we're at a fairly unprecedented time of being
able to experiment with creating new stars. You know, you
might be able to compare it to ninety three, ninety
four maybe and you know, experimenting with bread a little bit,

(01:55:49):
finding diesel, going to Shawn, you know, figuring out exactly
where you're gonna land, and then getting to the Attitude
era from there. I think comparisons could be made to that.
But I think that when you add the space that
we're in now where you don't have the cemented stars
that you've had for years, and part of that is

(01:56:10):
Roman Reigns, but really it's John Cena we're talking about,
because even if Roman Reigns were there, I think there
would still be room to mess around a little bit.
But I think that I think that what is new
and unique is the creative space that we're in because
of the environment that we're in. Yes, I think that
it allows for a lot more creativity and a lot

(01:56:32):
more trying things and kind of letting your brain wander
and seeing where you land. I think that that I
think that the things are a little less rigid now
potentially they can be, doesn't mean they will be things
can be less rigid now than I think ever before.

Speaker 1 (01:56:51):
Yeah, I'm I'm really curious when when crowds come back,
we have treatment and a we're all inoculated hopefully to
the what stays and what goes from this era? You know,
does this change at least WWE, if not professional wrestling forever.
AW you know did some stuff like a little bit

(01:57:12):
along these lines with the big Stadium brawl, some stuff
with Lance Archer fighting people in the field, but they
haven't gotten back to it very much, you know, AW said,
I think kind of counterprogramming as they're kind of programming
as the pro wrestling for younger people who just embrace
letting people fight in a ring and fight for titles.
And w b's going this and they've had to set,

(01:57:33):
you know, a better setting to do it in so far,
although I am curious if Tony Conna Company if they
step up there the look of Dynamite after seeing what
ww does with Thunderdome too, or if they just think, no,
we're gonna stay organic and and not change. So that's
a whole other sidebar discussion, Sam. But how AW responsor
is But you know, a year from now, where it
does WWE kind of go back to normal because when

(01:57:57):
people pay money one hundred plus dollars for tickets, they
expect to see people in person. They don't want You
don't go to a concert to watch a concert on
a big screen. So you know, do you do? You
pay the type of ticket money you do, but yeh
never end up actually being in the same room, so
to speak, with the top stars doing their thing, there's
limits to that. So how do they blend those two
things after the pandemic, you know, precautions end.

Speaker 3 (01:58:21):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that I hope
that WWE finds a way to keep some of these
cinematic matches on because I think that for the most part,
they've been extremely successful. I also hope that they're willing
to stay creative, you know, that they're willing to do
things like the Greatest Match Ever, because I think the
Greatest Match Ever was far more creative than people even
give it credit for. But you know, maybe that is

(01:58:45):
a scenario where you can do, for instance, money in
the Bank, or the last match on the show is
a cinematic match, and maybe there's a dark match that
you can put on for the audience. That's in the arena,
and then for the audience at home, they'll be able
to see the cinematic match, and maybe you make it
very very clear that you're going to end the show
or begin the show with a cinematic match, because I

(01:59:07):
do think that issues arise, you know, and historically they have.
You know, when they did the boiler Room Brawl at
SummerSlam ninety six, there's just that odd period where people
are sitting in the arena watching on little tron's and
trying to figure it out. When they did the lions
Den match at SummerSlam in Madison Square Garden and you know,

(01:59:28):
halfway through the show, people have to just sit in
Madison Square Garden and watch the match on a screen
and wait for wrestling to come back.

Speaker 4 (01:59:34):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:59:35):
I think that's that's a little tricky, but I hope
that they figure out a way to do it because
I think that I think that you're right in terms
of counterprogramming. I just think that if we're learning anything
from this era, it's to take what you can do
well and try to show that on the highest level.
And I think that with WWE, that means creativity and

(01:59:58):
that means production value. You and I hope that a
year from now that's the space that they're still in.

Speaker 1 (02:00:07):
Yeah, yep, I'm curiously where that goes. Thanks for downloading
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(02:00:55):
as we move here into the VIP after show, thank
you VIP members for supporting us. We haven't talked about retribution.
I'm assuming they get involved at SummerSlam in some way.
Do you assume that, or even if you don't assume it,
where's the most likely place they show up.

Speaker 3 (02:01:11):
I mean, I would hope SummerSlam, you know, I think
that there's a lot of damage they could do in
the Thunderdome, you know. And the Thunderdorp thing is interesting too,
because I know, like, for instance, in my discord room,
people were hoping that Retribution was going to destroy the
performance Center on Monday night, Oh oh yeah, which it

(02:01:31):
could have been fitting. But at the same time, as
far as the Thunderdome goes, they've only announced that they're
doing SummerSlam weekend in the thunder Dome. They haven't specifically
said that from here on out. I would imagine I
would hope that from here on out, Ron SmackDown is
coming from the Thunderdome. But all they've said is we're
doing SummerSlam weekend from there.

Speaker 1 (02:01:49):
I think in the TV narrative they've only said SummerSlam weekend,
but I think media reports in what they've said clearly
in the case they're indefinitely at Amway, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:02:00):
Because they've said they've had they have residency there. They
said October at least.

Speaker 1 (02:02:04):
So it be weird to set up Thunderdome and then
say isn't this cool? And then let's go to the
trouble to disassemble it to make the rest. So I
think the implication is it's going to be around, but
go ahead because on TV they've made it feel like
SummerSlam weekend is a big deal because it's Thunderdome. So
it could be marketing.

Speaker 3 (02:02:18):
Yeah so yeah, so so who knows, but that might
have something to do with it. But yeah, I mean,
I think I'm quite sure retribution will be a part
of Summer Slam. It feels like with the amount of
stuff that they're doing that WWE is clearly happy with
the response and happy with it in terms of the
narrative and committed to it. So I think it would

(02:02:40):
be very, very, very weird to believe that this group
shows up on Raw and SmackDown but wouldn't show up
to SummerSlam. That said, I do think pretty soon we've
got to get to some answers, like there has we
have to start figuring out motive, Like you know it,
it's fun to watch things get ruined, but at some

(02:03:04):
point there has to be a why for people to
really care. And I think there are a lot of
different directions you could go in.

Speaker 1 (02:03:12):
They have a favorite theory, a top theory or a
cluster of vague ideas like this is something come to
mind where you're like, oh, yeah, they're Randy Orton's minions,
or it's led by the Tool five live guys, you
know whatever, like any kind of pet idea of where
this is.

Speaker 3 (02:03:30):
Well, of course, I do you know? You knew?

Speaker 1 (02:03:32):
I what am I talking about?

Speaker 3 (02:03:34):
Yeah? Yes, I'm actually very very hopeful that it's a
female led faction and that you're going to see people
like and obviously there are some men in it, because
we could just tell from what we see on camera,
but the faction grows and shrinks depending on what day

(02:03:54):
of the week it is, so who knows how wide
reaching this thing is, right, So I hope that this
is a female led faction, and I hope that this
is about women and the way the women's roster has
really just become about four people, right. I mean, I

(02:04:15):
hope that that retribution, Like I mean, I think after
this week, Mickey James being in retribution would be perfect.
I think putting Carmela and Dana Brooke and Naomi in
retribution would be perfect. But I just think that it
would it would be unexpected and super cool and forward
thinking to have it be women who have not felt

(02:04:39):
like they're getting a fair shake, and then you know
a few guys in there that agree with them as
well and that are are are taking and maybe it
is two or five live guys that are in there
going like, no, we feel the same way. It's not
just about women not getting opportunities. It's about people not
getting opportunities. And I hope that that's I would like
to see it being about that, because that feels like

(02:05:02):
something that that could get really really interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:05:06):
Is there a chance it's a group that we're supposed
to have sympathy with and that our baby face And
Michael Cole said, you know, they're trying to take advantage
of real world events as an excuse to do the
things that they're doing. That didn't sound neutral. It sounded
like swaying us against them. But have they done enough

(02:05:27):
to be overtly heels at this point or are they
just sort of disruptive bandits that were just that are
just drawing attention to themselves in a way that you'd
be like, all right, seriously, you know you're interrupting a show,
so that's not good. But is there a possibility that
when they tell their story. Even Michael Cole is like, oh, okay,
you know, I guess this isn't this there's a greater

(02:05:49):
good to steal cess line to maybe what they were doing,
because this is a landmine type of current event thing
they're playing off of, and you can offend a big
portion your audience, and Vincent Mann might not know he's
doing it. He might think everybody's on his side on
this except for some radicals out there who are disrupting,
you know, the perfect world that otherwise would exist. So

(02:06:10):
you're dancing around land mines here when you pull this
into your story, into your storyline world.

Speaker 3 (02:06:15):
Yeah, I agree with that, you know, I think that
I think that the reason that they kind of have
to be heels is that they're very clearly anti WWE,
and I think the last thing that you want to
do is Garner, specifically Garner fans support for a group
that is anti the Big brand. I think that that

(02:06:38):
ultimately is was the mistake of the nWo. That I
think that the mistake of the nWo had less to
do with the faction getting watered down and you know,
all the subgroups spawning and everything that wasn't good. But
I think ultimately the real downfall and what made the
nWo bad in the end was that the nWo is

(02:06:59):
more pop than wcweah, And so I think that not
that I think that, you know, retribution would ever be
more popular than WWE. But if that effort is being made,
how do you cheer for anybody? You know? I think
in WCW it got to a point where why would
you cheer for anybody that wasn't nWo? And I think

(02:07:20):
that if retribution were not heels, that would be the message.
Why am I cheering for anybody that's WWE? If retribution
is right?

Speaker 1 (02:07:30):
Although healed gms have been a rich part of WWE's
history the last twenty years, and that and from the
authority to I mean, you name them. There's been so
many hel gms where the company was the bad guy
against the lead babyfaces.

Speaker 3 (02:07:43):
Yeah, but there was usually there's usually either when the
GM is a heel, somebody will come in to disrupt it,
like once a year, Vince will come in right a
good guy all of a sudden, or when Vince is
the back in the attitude arrow, when Vince was the
heel CEO, you would have a commissioner like Stone Cold

(02:08:03):
or Shawn Michaels or somebody to disrupt it. Actually, I
think that that is the ultimate downfall of the heel
gm is because they started forgetting to have the opposing
power structure, so it made it sure. So you just
had this one sided narrative that eventually you get tired of.

Speaker 1 (02:08:21):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I hope they navigate it
carefully and that there's people in the that there are
people speaking up about how this could this could backfire
on them if they went in with a certain assumption
about how their audience would react to and uprising against
a corporate authority type entity, and that you know, destroying

(02:08:44):
some equipment would necessarily turn them into heels, and that
that may not resonate with a gigantic part of their
audience right now, would with some, but it would not
with others. And that's where I I would have just said,
let's not do this, Let's not do this.

Speaker 3 (02:08:56):
I also think that it's actually, you know, some people
are critical because they're doing some wrestling stuff with it,
Like they're showing the replays, they're clearly making it like
this does not feel like it's not part of the show,
right Yeah, Like it feels like a disruption, but it
feels like a scripted disruption, and I'm not convinced that
that's not being done specifically. You know. I think that

(02:09:17):
actually making it clearly a scripted disruption and not trying
to convince people that this is more than it is
is making it less politically vulnerable in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (02:09:29):
Okay, yep, fair point. A rapid part because I know
we've gone along here and you're going to have a
whole pre show to talk about it. But a couple thoughts,
just a couple thoughts on NXT Keith Lee carrying cross,
any thoughts on what we're in store for there? What
do you think of carrying a cross?

Speaker 2 (02:09:48):
So far?

Speaker 3 (02:09:49):
I love carrying Cross. I mean, that's like probably the
number one act I'm looking forward to seeing in front
of fans. That entrance is just like nothing I've ever seen.
I mean, I would say the entrance is amazing and
and yeah, and I think that just you know, watching
him at the last takeover go through Champo is the
right move and there's just a believability there, and I

(02:10:11):
think people are psyched about it. So I like carrying
cross as a challenger, you know, And This is what
I'm interested in seeing because it's one of those things
where Keith Lee needs to This is the moment that
he can start to look like a really strong champion
and the person that's going to lead NXT going forward.
But at the same time, we need to keep carrying

(02:10:33):
Cross as somebody that we look at seriously. So how
you manage to keep both in that position coming out?
And I think the only way to do that is
whoever wins and whoever loses the match has to be really,
really good. We just have to want to see more
of both of them.

Speaker 1 (02:10:47):
And Aw's been been battling this by bringing in the
new monsters, and you know Lance Archer going after Cody.
How do you go in Brian Cage after Moxley and Brody?
Lee remarks, how do you rehabilitate the monster? Heel comes
in with a bang and doesn't have a long journey
to that main event title shot. How do you repurpose them?

(02:11:08):
You know, do they go away for a while, do
you have something that you put them instantly against somebody else?
Big Adam Cole, you know, we'll talk about that in
a second. They've taken him from the champion to having
this completely different sidebar issue that totally explains why he's
not in the world title picture at this time, and
so they might if Keith Lee retains its title, and
I expect he will, unless they're going to bring him
up to the main roster and have Crosswind, which solves

(02:11:28):
that problem by the way that we're just talking about.
But if if Keighlee retains, then you know they can
come up with something else for Carring Cross. Probably not
Pat McAfee, but.

Speaker 3 (02:11:39):
Probably not.

Speaker 1 (02:11:41):
What are your odds on the outcome there? If that's
not spoiling your predictions, because maybe you'll say something different
on the kickoffs show when people call you out for it.
That's true, So be wishy washy Sam, just to be safe.
I will, I will, You're a pro.

Speaker 3 (02:12:00):
I don't know, man. I think that if Keith Lee
doesn't win, then you have to think long and hard
about whether or not he's actually the future the way
he's been portrayed since like November, Like, if Keith Lee
can't beat Carrion Cross, then maybe he's not the guy

(02:12:20):
that that we all kind of started painting him as
after Roman Reign shook his hand at Survivor series.

Speaker 1 (02:12:26):
You know, are you saying that in a meta sense
or a storyline sense that you build on.

Speaker 3 (02:12:30):
Here's the thing I don't even know. Yeah, I don't
even know somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I I
think I think both Realistically, I think that it depends
on how you uh, it depends on your motivation, right.
I think I think that works storyline wise. I think
it's a little similar to the storyline that Rhea Ripley's

(02:12:51):
going through right now, so you have to be a
little careful with that. But I think it works in
I think it works in a metaway or a storyline. However, however,
it gets portrayed both ways work.

Speaker 1 (02:13:04):
Yeah, yep. And and again if if Keithley loses, but
it's not entirely fair and he goes to the main
roster or disappears for two months and then shows up
in the draft or something, and Karen Cross has becomes
sort of a dominant figure, Adam Cole comes out of
the Pat McAfee thing as a baby face, and just
go to Colon Colon Cross. True, you know you can
do that too. I think Keith Lee's probably a better

(02:13:26):
fit for the main roster than NXT. Ultimately as an
act but they called it Matt Riddle first and and
uh you know who knows where uh Dominic da Jakovic
shows up next. So but you know they could use
some reinforcements too on Ron SmackDown to freshen up their matchups.
So are you well no, I won't commit you too.
Would you want to say who you think is gonna

(02:13:46):
walk out with the belt.

Speaker 3 (02:13:49):
For Keith Lee's sake? I hope it's Keith Lee at
this point. I mean, I think he's probably got less
road to walk if he loses than carrying cross does.

Speaker 1 (02:13:58):
And and also with Keith Lee, if if he loses,
and this is what I worry about with Drew is
that there could be a perception that gets propagated out
there that they lost faith in him because ratings weren't
good during his run. And you know it would be
ludicrous to blame Drew for that. Keith Lee's had dead
with aw n NXT's faded since then since he became champ, right,

(02:14:22):
Adam Cole, Pat McAfee, do you love this?

Speaker 3 (02:14:25):
I do? Yeah, I think it's I think it's been
done uh perfectly. I mean, I I think that the
idea of taking the old football player come in for
the celebrity match against the wrestler and turning the formula
on its head where you're at you actually are. It's
so funny to me that there are fans that are

(02:14:46):
are still mad about this when for the first time
that this story has been told. I think their voice
is what's narrating the story, like this, this this idea
that Pat McAfee is an outsider and and that he's
disrespecting the business and that he shouldn't be there anyway.
That's the story like that, that concern is the story

(02:15:07):
of the match, and that story is what I think
is turning Adam Cole into a babyface. And so I
think that that part is good. I think that it's
making it unique and it's making it believable, like it's
making it feel real, and you know when you look
at it on paper. And I said this before, I

(02:15:28):
was like, realistically, Pat McAfee can't beat Adam Cole in
a wrestling ring. That's insane. But then you watch the
physical conversation on NXT. You know, I guess two weeks
ago at this point and he kicks Adam Cole in
the head and you're like, oh yeah, Pat McAfee's got weapons. Like,
there you go. If Pat McAfee kicked Adam Cole in

(02:15:51):
the head, his head would fall off. And that's what
we saw happen on NXT. Like, of course, of course
that would happen because Pat McAfee is an athlete, and
Pat McAfee does have lethal feet. If he treats your
head like a football or a soccer.

Speaker 1 (02:16:03):
Ball, does this launch Adam Cole properly and effectively into
a potential lead babyface role in NXT.

Speaker 3 (02:16:11):
I think that's the idea. I mean, I think that
coming out of this, fans will see Adam have to
if this is effective, fans would have to see Adam
Cole as the person who is now the defender of NXT.

Speaker 1 (02:16:26):
Yeah, McAfee is so, whether he knows it or not,
or everybody knows it or not, is so a perfect
heal for wrestling right now.

Speaker 3 (02:16:34):
I mean, when people are like, you know, Pat mcavee
shouldn't be on Takeover, I want to see him get
his ass kicked, I'm like, both can't be true. I
know it's both be true? Yes, yeah, yeah, no, I
think and you know, watching watching Pat kind of seamlessly
transition from goofball commentator guy that I know from the

(02:16:59):
pre show to kind of prick guy who would get
into a fight with you at the.

Speaker 1 (02:17:05):
Bar, the one who's constantly saying things where he has
to follow up with no offense.

Speaker 3 (02:17:11):
Yeah, yeah that guy. Yes, watching him transition into that
and then looking at his face, oh, and realizing that like, oh,
this isn't your buddy that he's been pretending to be.
This is every jock that's had won too many drinks
at the bar yep, and thinks that he can bully you.

Speaker 1 (02:17:28):
That's who that is, and has a privilege where he
can say something and then have plausible deniability that is
implausible that he didn't meant anything by it. But yeah,
I mean it's just like and the way he just
leaned into it more and more a couple of weeks
ago on NXT, just it just got worse than worse

(02:17:48):
where he just stopped it almost he either was buying
his own BS or he just stopped caring that anyone
would buy his own BS, And to the point where
it was just like, Okay, yeah, I want to see
this guy get beat up.

Speaker 3 (02:17:59):
Right right now. Yeah, to the point where like he
got it to a point that it's not fun anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:18:04):
Yes, and it's and it's clearly not affectionate ribbing of
a buddy.

Speaker 3 (02:18:09):
No, it's like it's like seriously, like, you know, I'm
a better athlete than you and you're a shrimp. You're like, okay,
we're not joking around anymore, are we? Pat Did it?

Speaker 1 (02:18:18):
Did it go too far? Did you ever think? Oh god,
you know, sometimes you just you know, Hogan had certain
things he didn't say, Dusty had certain things he didn't
that you know, you just weren't allowed to say about him.
You can say a lot, but certain areas you don't go.
Every top guy sort of had that. There's places you
won't go with Rock or Steve Austin or John Cena
on promos, even though they would take pride and saying
oh you can say anything, really, there are certain things

(02:18:38):
you just they wouldn't want said. So did they go
too far? With Adam Cole saying he's you know, got
a man's head and a in a you know, top,
the little little kid's body or whatever, and some of
that stuff. It's funny in the moment, but does does
that actually like do people look at Cole and go, well, yeah.
I mean, you know, it's kind of dickish to say,
but he's kind of got a point, like you don't
want to go somewhere where it almost is something you know,

(02:18:59):
that's Donald Trump thing. You know, he finds something to
say about someone and then he repeats it enough that
even if you resent him for it, it does cross
your mind and you can't help it. It's part of
what defines that public figure going forward.

Speaker 3 (02:19:11):
Yeah. No, I don't think so, because I feel like
we are living in a time now, the era that
we're in now, it is so much more difficult to
disguise anything. Everything's on display, and I think that addressing
the elephant in the room is more what's going on
here than alerting people to it. You know, I think

(02:19:32):
that realistically, when you think about it, when Adam Cole
gets to the main roster, if anybody has dreams of
Adam Cole being in the main event scene, which I
think is all any of us fans want, it's I mean,
everybody's going to notice that he's small. You know that
that's going to be a thing like people. Whether it's

(02:19:55):
part I don't think it should be a part of
every storyline, but I think it's it's something that every
person watching is going to notice, and the person who
hasn't watched wrestling in three years is going to turn
on the TV and the first thing he's going to
say is who's the small guy? Like that's just that's
just what's going to happen. I think that, you know,
things have to go a certain way, but I think
that the the value is that you use this to

(02:20:20):
show that it doesn't matter, that you're aware, like, yes,
I see what you see, and here's why it doesn't matter.
And I think that that's the story that needs to
be told with Pat and needs to be told with
Adam Cole going forward, and not literally you know, literally
you're not gonna sit there and call him shorty a
and say like, yeah, he's going to watch wrestle, Like
you don't have to literally say it. You have. You

(02:20:42):
have a bully making fun of him for being short
and small, and then he is able through his offense
to show why that doesn't matter, and to continue to
show why that doesn't matter, to the point where if
somebody were to bring it up, it would sound ridiculous
because he's already proving that to be a non issue.

Speaker 1 (02:21:03):
Yeah, yep. Well, put, it would.

Speaker 3 (02:21:05):
Be like if if if Jeb Bush were so great
at everything except being energetic, to the point where when
Donald Trump said, oh, there's low energy Jeb, people were like,
we're not even paying attention to his energy. He's so
good at everything else, Like, why would you even bring
up his energy?

Speaker 1 (02:21:24):
Yes, no, that's actually great, A great circling back to
my to my example and a good example for sure. Okay,
I won't explore Jeb Bush anymore then that we'll just
effective hypothetical. The North American Championship Ladder match. Bronson Reid
has been one of the prizes of the last month.

(02:21:45):
I mean they built him up and then he lost
on TV, and then he had a breakout performance in
the ring. He's had good promos. I am like, I
want him to win, and I want this to be
the fall of Bronson Reid being the prize guy. That
also is the example that Triple H and Seawn Michaels
and everybody get to use for years when they talk

(02:22:06):
to XT guys who are down and out and feeling like, oh,
I don't want to lose on TV and I feel
like I'm not going to get anywhere and they go,
see what happened with Bronson Reid. He never gave up,
He kept trying, he kept getting better. You might be
that guy too. And it's not a charity case. It's
not for for some larger purpose. It's just I think
he's earned his place right now into at least getting
a chance to be North American champion. That said, they
could have something very specific in mind for Dream or

(02:22:28):
Balor or Gargano, you know, some of the more established
guys in this also did sort of seem like, now
this is just a whole storyline to get it on priest.
So I'm for this sort of At first, I was like,
why did they give Reid the spot? And then the
match was so good you go, well, maybe he deserves it.
So yeah, your your thoughts indeed disagree with me any
of that, and your thoughts on the entry going into this.

Speaker 3 (02:22:51):
I mean, I think it's it's really cool that you
have because I mean, you not only have Bronson Reid
in there, you got Damian preek hammeron grimes Is in
the ladder match too, and theoretically, I mean with fim
Balor or velveteen Dream, that's gonna be one of those two,
you're going to have a main event established talent in

(02:23:14):
this ladder match. You're guaranteed to it because either finmn
Baalor or velveteen Dream would be in it. But theoretically
Ridge Holland could beat Johnny Gargano. Theoretic yep, Theoretically there
are many ways that could theoretically happen. And if so,
you're looking at a ladder match where it is all
new faces. And I think that that's something that this

(02:23:36):
Takeover is really about, because you're looking at an NXT
Championship scene where you don't have like you know, I mean,
think about the last Takeover in your house, Keith Lee
beat Johnny Gargano carrying cross beat Tomaso Champa. You're you're
looking at this established talent that carried NXT for a generation,

(02:23:59):
all get beat and now you're looking at Takeover thirty,
which to me, in both title matches, the technically in
all three title matches with EO and Dakota in the
Women's championship match, all three championship matches, you're looking at
completely new generation talent and you're looking at a clear

(02:24:20):
rebuild of the NXT brand. And that's to me, what's
got me excited, whether they put it on Damian Priest
or Bronson Reid or somebody else. I think that regardless,
you end up coming out of this ladder match where
theoretically you could go into the next takeover with Damian
Priest versus Bronson Reid as a takeover match that people

(02:24:43):
really care about, and if you're able to pull that off,
that's a big deal for nxt AM.

Speaker 1 (02:24:50):
I overstating Bronson Reid's rise and potential. What have you
thought of him?

Speaker 3 (02:24:55):
I think he's great. I think I don't think so
at all, And I think that there is an interest.
I think that I'm actually surprised by the amount of
people that I see that are are psyched about the
rise of Bronson Reid. Like it does feel like there's
just been this sort of very quiet underlying momentum that

(02:25:16):
people have been waiting for something to happen with Bronson Reid.
I think, I mean, even then, like thick Boy feels
it feels relevant. It feels like a relevant thing, like
that something in their twenties, something that someone in their
twenties would say, you know, And and I also kind
of feel like with Gargano taking all these little shots,

(02:25:40):
you know, I mean you call them thick boy in
the promo before the Triple Threat, he said that thick
boy guy. In the Gargano's at Home vignette last week.
You know, I wouldn't be shocked if we're we're headed
towards a Bronson Reid Johnny Gargano program, which I think
would be great. I mean, imagine Bronson Reid wins the
latter match and Johnny Gargano comes after him. You can't

(02:26:00):
make a guy much more than that, right, And.

Speaker 1 (02:26:03):
It could be a great match. I mean, I don't
say great lightly. I think it could be a great match.

Speaker 3 (02:26:08):
Yeah. Yeah. And with the styles too, I mean, you know,
it's not it's two different guys. You have Bronson really
getting a chance to shine for one of the first
times theoretically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think that
could be really special.

Speaker 1 (02:26:23):
EO Srida Coda Kai can wrap up with thoughts on that, you.

Speaker 3 (02:26:27):
Know, I I I think EO will win, just because
you know, NXT doesn't switch their titles all that frequently,
nor should they. Yeah, but I think you know, in
terms of most improved in the last three hundred and
sixty five days, it would be tough to not put
Dakota Kai on that list when you're looking at the
Koda Kai and I don't have you. I mean, you know,

(02:26:51):
I would tell you clearly if I thought somebody didn't
belong in a championship match. And I've done it before,
but you know I I go into this going yes,
of course, you know Rhea Ripley is right there, and
you're going, well, when is she going to be in
the main event? And this she's this other level star.
But at the same time, you know, if it were

(02:27:12):
anyone but Dakota Kai in this Eoshari match, even if
it were Teaga and Knocks, I'd be like, that should
have been Dakota Kai's. She was given the chance to
stand out and she has become a completely different performer
in the last year.

Speaker 1 (02:27:27):
Very good, Sam. I don't know if we broke our record,
but I do know, as usual, it felt like forty
five minutes and it's been over two hours. So thank you.
A lot of fun. I hope everybody's psyched for the weekend.
I think there's a lot of moving parts on SmackDown,
setting up both Summer Slam and Payback with the new
Thundernome set and then NXT Takeover, which we touched on

(02:27:50):
relatively briefly. You can get you'll have your expanded commentary
on the kickoff show, and then SummerSlam and what's your
over under in the length of Summer Slam. Now that
they're out of the Performance Center and it's their their
number two branded show with a year.

Speaker 3 (02:28:02):
I was gonna say, based on the length of this podcast,
this is actually my expanded commentary. Yeah, you know, they
got eight matches announced, I would say, I think you're
probably looking at a four hour pay per view my
plus the pre show.

Speaker 1 (02:28:19):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (02:28:20):
Think probably looking I don't know if the pre show
is going to be an hour or two hours. I
would think one hour, but who knows. I mean, it's SummerSlam,
so I think, depending on the length of the pre shows,
either going to be five or possibly six hours.

Speaker 6 (02:28:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:28:35):
I'm hoping they keep it at three twenty five. That's
my that's my hope, and I think it's doable when
I when I look at the actual matches, because I
think Bailey Osca and Sash Oscar one of them could
be short street profits on Drotting and jol Garza, they
can do eleven minutes and it would feel like, wait,
what are you doing? And cruise MVP could also be

(02:28:55):
a pretty quick win for Apollo. Seth Dominic isn't going
to be a marathon. It's going to be intense, but
won't be a marathon. In Mandy Sonia they could also,
I mean, that can be eight nine minutes. So I
think there's a way to keep this manageable in a
round three twenty five, which I think is a sweet
spot three times a year for your top three shows
and then you try, you know, ideally clock in under
three for the for the rest of them, just given

(02:29:15):
you know, the attention span of the audience and diminishing
returns after that. So that's my hope. I've made my
case for wwe try to try to abide by there.

Speaker 3 (02:29:24):
I think that's there.

Speaker 1 (02:29:25):
Sam. Thanks you're at not Sam And if people check
out your podcast your Patreon page for bonus podcasts, and
thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (02:29:34):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:29:35):
Man.

Speaker 1 (02:29:56):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at ptwtorch
dot com. That's Wadkeller Podcast at PW torch dot Com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even follow us on
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That's at PW Torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 11 (02:30:18):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
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Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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