INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Bob Backlund on whether he regrets not turning heel after losing title, Vince Sr.'s Backlund-Graham decision

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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller Pro
Wrestling Podcast ten years ago. This week on the Way
Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, Bruce Mitchell joined me to interview
Bob Beckland, former WF champion. He talked about his decision
to write a foregner at eighty page autobiography, what he

(01:27):
wrote that he would not have written if he had
written the book decades ago, how much more open was
he about certain things, and also the transition of him
being the centerpiece of WWF to Hulk Hogan. After phone
connection issues cut the interview short after about forty minutes,
Bruce Mitchell analyzed one of the major turning points in
Backland's career when Vincent Mannor committed to him over this

(01:49):
surprisingly strong draw as a heel champion superstar Billy Graham.
It was a real pivotal moment in WWF history and
a fascinating one, and it is absolutely worth staying Tune four. Then,
in a bonus segment a previously VIP exclusive after show
podcast with Jason Powell that I just forgot to add
on to the end of the regular free September twenty ninth,

(02:10):
twenty fifteen podcasts at Jason and I did, so we're
going to include it here, including our reaction to the
reaction to Raw and predicting the following week's ratings. Also,
who were Tripleh's biggest influences, evaluating the Big Show Paul
Hayman segment, also making an issue of Kevin Owens weight
wwe' selective acknowledgment of history and more as we answered

(02:31):
email questions in that previously VP exclusive after show. So
let's get to it at the Backlind interview aired or
streamed live on October eighth, twenty fifteen. The after show
was September twenty ninth, twenty fifteen, and it is today's
wayde Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years ago flashback for Saturday,
October eleventh, twenty twenty five. Here we go. Welcome to

(02:57):
thep w Torch Live Cast. I am wait Keller Glee
newsletter since nineteen eighty seven and also pwtorch dot com,
the website and the pw Torch app for iPhone and Android.
Check it out in the Google play Store. We also
have the MMA Toorch dot com website, which we just

(03:19):
relaunched a new version of today. I think it's a
great improvement. I'm proud of it. I hope you'll check
it out. If you're an MMA fan and a UFC fan,
you can just go to mmatorch dot com to check
out the new website. It is Interview Thursday, Thursday, October eighth,
two thousand and fifteen. We're starting a little bit later

(03:41):
than usual today at seven eastern, six Central. That is
because we are scheduled to be joined momentarily by a
major guest on the program, and that is Bob Becklind,
former WWE or WWWF and WWF World Heavyweight Champion. I'm
also going to be joined by Bruce Mitchell. Bruce knows

(04:05):
Bob Backland's career very well. Like me, he has read well,
He's read over half the book. I've read the vast
majority of Bob Backland's book, and I'm going to go
back and read, give it a second read, parts of
it a second read. I've been cramming for today's interview,
and it is a really good book. Four in fact,
let me pull the hard copy out here, four hundred

(04:26):
and eighty four hundred and eighty five pages, absolute fascinating
walk through the through the history of WWE mid seventies
to mid eighties. A little bit less than that, but
basically mid seventies through mid eighties, early eighties is where
the primary focus is, with the WWF territory and his

(04:48):
title reign being kind of the heart of the second
two thirds of the book, although some really fascinating aspects
of his time in the NWA us n WA territory,
so some really cool stuff. And I told him this
an email yesterday when we were planning out the show.
He really fills a gap in terms of covering from

(05:10):
a first person perspective a certain era of wrestling. So
this is it's a really cool addition to our ability
to know what happened during a certain time period in wrestling.
So when we come back from the break, hopefully we'll
have both Bob Backlund and Bruce Mitchell with us to
see Bruce Mitchell on hold. Right now, let's take a
quick break here here from our sponsors, and we'll be

(05:32):
back with Bruce Mitchell to talk about the Bob Backland book.
And during the break, I'll get Bob a call and
see if we can't get him on the switchboard. Also,
as a listener of the PW Torch live cast, it's
obvious your progrestling fan who likes Progressing podcast dot com
check it out. That's PW Podcasts dot com. All right,
we are back and board, Bruce, Bruce Mitchell, Welcome to

(05:55):
the show today, we should have Bob with us. Momentarily,
I was just talking before the break about what a
fan of this book that I am. I did have
to kind of cram and skim over the second half
of the book, but I kept well. I was tried
to pick up on on aspects of the book that
I wanted to read in depth, or as I was
skimming over the book, I kept getting stopped by great

(06:16):
stories that Bob told from that era. As we just
wait for Bob to call us back here on the switchboard,
give a little bit of a review of what you've
thought of the book so far.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
I got it Monday and I've just been reading it NonStop.
It's the ideal book that I would hope Bob Backlan
would write. I think that, you know, Bob Beckham's one
of the cornerstones of w w A along with Bruno,
Sat Martine, and I think it's a very maybe hul
Coke and I mean that's a very short list. You
know who built that foundation that the rest, really the

(06:48):
rest of the business stands on right right now. And
you know how he saw things and what a unique
perspective he would have six years of headlining and those
big arena in the Northeast, including Madison Square Garden and
really carrying a company on his shoulders. He had help,
but you know, and then the best of you know,

(07:09):
the best of the best rotating through the w w
S and him facing them. And I also just think
I was really interested in is always interested in Jay
McMahon and how he ran the company and then transition
to the to viscent man that we know today, and
you get a lot of that. Very interesting, very straightforward,
and and and you know him coming through the nw

(07:34):
A but not being not being his ballyhooed until he
was shot to the top of Madison Square Garden and
that was that was very interesting too. There's a real
there's a real mafia behind the scenes manipulating, you know,
manipulating the biggest stars in the wrestling business and working
together and sharing ideas and and sharing agendas. And I

(07:56):
think you get a great look at this.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Let's let's let's bring Bob into the atation. Bob with us,
and I want to take advantage of our time with him.
Bob Eckland. First of all, it is an honor to
talk to you, and even more so after reading your
book and learning so much about you as a person
and uh and in the way that you approach the business.
And I want to thank you upfront two for writing
this book as somebody who devours this type of wrestling history,

(08:21):
and I know I speak for Bruce Mitchell and saying
this too. I know a lot of time went into
this and to write a book that's this good and
this detailed is now part of wrestling's history. That can
that that it added a lot to the to the
documentation of wrestling history. So thank you for all of that,
and thank you for taking time out to be on
today's show.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
It's a great pleasure to be on show. I appreciate
a lot. And uh, yeah, I'm really excited about the book.
I get Bruce Pimple's every time I go out and signal.
And I'm in Iowa right now, getting ready to go
to a college and I went through and signed books
set tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Oh awesome getting out in public and signing autographs. What
kind of fans are you running into people who remember
you from your pro wrestling days by seeing your matches
in person? If so, what eras or are you finding
that there's actually fans who are relived your history through
YouTube and the ww network. Also, what what kind of

(09:19):
interaction are you having with twenty fifteen fans.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
I'm finding out that, you know, people are all ages.
You know, the people that are younger there that weren't
even probably back when I was wrestling it with a
WWF championship, they know more about me sometimes than I do.
Very exciting to see that they are studying the history
of the business and they know they know a lot

(09:43):
about it. You know, It's been pretty interesting, Yeah, but
it's always nice to see somebody that comes up and
save gs. I. You know, the COVID I was his
childhood hero when he grew up, and you know, I've
met a lot of other people that you know, say
the same thing. And it's very really rewarding and energeting.
As far as the book and everything. I get more

(10:04):
enthusiasts about it every day. Price you can.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Support us on Patreon and get these shows with ads
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Prosing post shows, and the pw Torch daily cast throughout
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(10:31):
slash pw torch vip and you can also upgrade to
other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Bob,
when did you start writing the book? I know that
Rob Miller was a big fan of yours, and it
kind of explained at the beginning of the book his
passion for your career and wanting to write the book.
But relay the story of how the idea came about

(10:54):
to write a book. And was this something that you
had thought of over the decades of doing or was
it is this book something was a long time coming
or sort of a last second decision to go this
in depth on your past.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
No, No, in uh in nineteen eighty five I started,
We started trying to find a publishing company and we couldn't.
Uh we and we did some writing back then. Some
of the stuff that's in the book is stuff that
we did back in eighty five. But No, I've always
wanted to write a book, and I've always wanted to
tell the tell uh the way andybody Else's way and

(11:31):
when I and I was getting to be sixty years all,
I thought, you know what, I don't know if I'm
ever going to get a book published. And then uh,
in nine Rob Miller sent me a FedEx stating that
I was his hero and he wanted to write a
book about me. And we met in the library and
very we met. I was a little worried because I

(11:51):
wasn't a character, but he wanted to find out if
I was really that person that he idolized. And he
found that out and he uh we took five years
to put the wow.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Uh the process of writing the book, you say been
you know it was five years in the making. How
talk about the collaboration with Rob and talk about what
surprised you about the book writing experience. When I interview
wrestlers who have written books, I get different answers as
far as this goes. But I know the feeling I
get when I just go through old old photo albums

(12:26):
or go through an old box in the storage room.
It brings you back to places that you hadn't really
thought of for a while, and you remember things differently
because you're at a different place in your life. I'm
curious what the process was for you to do a
book this in depth and this detailed, and what that
was like for you as a person to go through
that process.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well, yeah, it you know, we met a Hunt a
bunch of a lot of times. He was coming down
to Glastonbury, Connecticut, and then I went up to his
home in New Hampshire and we went back and forth,
and we had a lot of meetings. The one thing
that was every meeting was like it's like it was
two hours, but actually it was like eight or nine
or ten hours. It was so enjoyable. But you kind

(13:05):
of when you're telling your life story, you kind of
get into a different world and uh uh and you do.
Uh sometimes it's shocking to uh how things happen. And
like talking about the towel coming in in Madison Square Garden,
like when it got to the top of the ropes,
I didn't think it was ever gonna come at the ring,
but and uh, you know it was, Uh it was

(13:26):
sort of hard to talk about, but it's was it.
Uh it was. We had fun every time we went
on and uh we had things like it was almost
like a match. Every meeting would top the other meeting,
and it was like you need to start the flow.
And every time we met, things improved, things got better.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
We we wanted things to happen, and they happened, and
I know how sometimes, but uh there was a lot
of mirrors out in the world, and uh, some miracles
happened as we were, as we were writing the book.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
I have to ask you this, did your last meeting
with rob and in a steel cage?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
No?

Speaker 3 (14:05):
No, we didn't end in the steel Okay, we ended. Uh.
The last thing I didn't want to I didn't really
talk about my dad. I didn't. I it was you know,
it was I thought, you know, that has to be told,
this part of the story. And uh but I that
was the last interview that we did and and I

(14:28):
I just did. I didn't want to talk about it.
But then then it wouldn't be my life story.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Wow. Yeah, excellent.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
So yeah, even uh with my grandmother when I would
go visit her, I would I thought maybe I shouldn't
talk about that because I couldn't say anything good to her.
I didn't want to lie to her and I didn't
want to tell her how bad it went. But uh,
uh so uh, you we almost took didn't I didn't
do that you know, there's some little things that you know,

(14:55):
really kind of uh hit hit me. But it was
still it was part. It was important because that was
part of my life.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
I want to ask one more question about the process
of writing the book, and then I'll bring Prossing torchs
columnist Bruce Mitchell in a conversation. He knows your career
very well and he'll get into that also as part
of his introducing himself for some of his questions. And he,
by the way, celebrating twenty five years as a columnist
with the Prossing Torch newsletter this month.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, that's a love experience.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Yeah, and I think it's real cool he gets to
interview you during this twenty fifth year celebration. A Bob,
the one question after you before I throw to Bruce
for his first question is is there a story that
you told that in this book in twenty fifteen that
would have been told a lot differently ten twenty or

(15:49):
even back thirty years ago in nineteen eighty five, if
you had gotten a book deal in terms of either
seeing things differently, being older and more mature and having
lived more life, or being more willing to tell so
stories or a particular story then you would have fifteen
twenty twenty five years ago.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
You know what, I think, I don't think we would
have been as intense as this book was. We wouldn't
have talked about the We probably wouldn't have talked about
the early family so much. We wouldn't have talked about
the principles that I learned in the high school and
junior high school, and I think those things are pretty important.

(16:26):
But it wouldn't have been the same book at all.
It was a different person that was helping me write it,
and I don't think we would have been able to
tell the story like we told it in this book.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Do you think the nineteen eighty five version of you
would be surprised at how forthcoming you were about the
way matches are booked, the way feuds were booked, bringing
people behind the scenes in almost as much detail and
honesty as you'll find a wrestler doing. Who's from your generation?

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, well yeah, yeah that that I you know that,
you know the Terry and Dory funk Uh and Harley Race.
They told me everything about everything about the business, and
they they you know, they trained me. They even you know,
here's how the champion has to be. This is what
you have to be to become a champion. And when
you go to a territory, you have to be this guy.

(17:22):
And uh, like the end of the nw A, they said,
Bob Backlin can't be a heel, so he can't be
our champion, right, he couldn't go and be a heel
in this territory because they're gonna he's gonna wrestle a
local babyface, the heel. The champion of the nw A
has to be able to go be a bad guy
and a good guy, maybe night after night in different territories.

(17:45):
And he won't believe that one person in each territory.
Uh ass uh, when you leave, you win, but he
can't win the war. Yeah, person that's going to be
living and you know in that territory and he's wrestling
for the promoter, you know, good night after night.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
I think to anybody who's a student of the history
of this industry, but they're kind of just starting to
learn about what it was like before Vince McMann or
Vincent K. Mcman, Vince Junior's expansion and the major changes
from the mid eighties on really marked by the transition
from you to Halkogan. If somebody wants to learn about
that dynamic between the NWA and the WWF or WWWF

(18:24):
and how different they were from one another and why
as you just got into why they had to they
why they had different types of champions, and the logistics
of what made it make sense to have different types
of champions. Your book is a great not just an introduction,
but in education. On that, Bruce, let me hand off
to you. I'm sure you put some thought out of this.
What are you interested in asking Bob about?

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, first, Bob is great to talk to you. I
spent a lot of time in the in late seventies
early eighties watching your matches. Of course you could watch
them on USA Network, the main events and Masters Square Garden.
Got to see a lot of Philadelphia Stactrum and Washington
Dcull Center. And you know you, I mean, you really
were the face of WWF wrestling at that time. Can

(19:07):
you talk about you know, you were so you were
so strong and what you wanted to portray as Bob
Becklan WWF champion. Can you talk about that? Can you
talk about what you were striving to achieve? What besides
selling a lot of tickets and making a good living.
But what that character that you feel so strongly about.

(19:29):
Talk about who that character was and how closely related
it was to your own to your real life.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
Well, let's go back up a little bit. In nineteen
seventy seven, Vince McMahon was looking for an All American
boy and he wanted to play Runo Sammartino with an
All American boy. And he called just about every promoter
in the business, and all of them only said one
name to be an All American boy and H and

(20:00):
I had just started in the business, but I I
uh and I was when I got into the business.
Somebody helped me when I was younger, and I always
wanted to put something back in as far as being
a good role model, somebody that people could look up
to and somebody could believe in and trust that they
were walking to walk. They just weren't talking about not

(20:21):
taking drugs. They weren't doing it. And it meant a
lot me to me to be that that kind of
person that people could believe in and know that he
was keeping his word and he was working hard, training hard.
And I was very driven to be a true All
American boy. But I sort of was that I was

(20:43):
very quiet, I was shy. I wasn't very good at promos,
but my promos were all American boy promos and they
you know, I didn't really listen to him too much
back then, but I listened to him a few while
we were doing the book, and you know, I kind
of enjoyed them. But it was very important for me

(21:05):
to be the kind of person that I was talking
about when I was talking to the fans. The fans
were very very important to me.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
You had a chance, I know you write about this
in the book, but when the transition came from this
Jay McMahon, the father to the Son and to to
Hulk Hogan's reign as WWF champion, and you had that
opportunity to turn your back on that character and to
extend your run in the main events as a villain,

(21:36):
as someone who was not going to portray those those
ideals anymore. And you know, go back after, go back
after Hulk Hogan. Do you have any regrets about that?
I mean you, you know, you that would have made money,
You would have been successful doing that. Do you have
any regrets about the decisions that you made to to
not turn into a villain, not turn into a bad

(21:57):
guy and go after hult Cogan.

Speaker 3 (22:00):
I have no regret. I would have went after haul Kogan.
Uh I would have wrestled them anytime, but at that
time in my life, there's no way that was going
to become a bad guy. I had a daughter that
was six years old. She was just going to start school,
and uh I talked to some of the people in
the SOTS. Mario Stogoldi, for instance, he had a lot

(22:22):
of problem in school because he said I was a
bad guy. And I didn't want to do that to
my daughter. But I was sponsoring kids wrestling tournaments all over,
like down in Rhode Island in Connecticut, and I was
talking to kids about being the right kind of person,
and I was I was. I was not going to
let my daughter down, and I was not going to
let those people down that I talked to about doing

(22:42):
the right things at that time.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
So you have no regrets about that respect that.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
I'm proud. I'm proud that I made that decision.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Yes, sir, need an extra dose of positivity in your
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(23:14):
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Speaker 1 (24:01):
Hey, Bruce, let me jump in and ask one thing
and remember your question because I want to stay on
this topic for one second. Bob. You touched on it
in the book a little bit, but I want to
have you expand on what it was like going from
headlining Madison Square Garden, being the centerpiece champion for the
biggest in the biggest market in the country, to have

(24:21):
it watching that transition take place, just like happened with Bruno,
although he stepped aside, you know, more so, and you
were chosen with Hulk Coogan taking over. It was a
very A very is a transition into a different type
of wrestling product and a different type of champion than
had ever than had ever happened before. What was it
like stepping away from that limelight and watching the company

(24:45):
that you were the headliner on changed so dramatically in
the years that followed. Oh you know what, Bruce, are
you there?

Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Okay, I just got a message on the uh on
the board here that Bob's phone dropped off, So hopefully
he is about to call us back. Let's see, uh
if he does well, Bruce, let me let me ask
you about the Bob Ackland WWWF title reign and reading

(25:16):
Bob's book, writing about all the different opponents he had.
What the thing that struck me about the book that
I want to talk to you about when we do
a long form review of this book is it seemed
like it was simpler times when it came to booking
and the formula that they used for the booking. H
And actually we got Bob back on after the call
dropped off. Bob, I was gonna ask Bruce about this,

(25:37):
but I want to throw it your way to in
a moment. But I want to go back to my
question after your maybe your phone dropped off before I
asked it, of what it was like to watch the
WWF change so drastically in the way that the champion
was portrayed after the switch from you to chic and
then right away.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
To Hogan's very concern to the champion in the same
he does that he doesn't do.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Ye. Hey, Bob, we were actually not able to hear
you right now. Is there a way for you to
shift to a different position where maybe the cell reception
or better, Hello, yep, can you hear me? Is there
a way for you to move to a position where
maybe your cell reception? Oh he dropped off again. All right,

(26:25):
hopefully he'll maybe switch spots for his cell phone. Brusc
go ahead back to you. As at that question, I
was asking about about how the booking seemed simpler. There
was a real formula of how things were done. It
felt laid back but successful in terms of kind of
how they went about Vin Senior specifically went about booking
his his challengers and the championship matches.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, it was there was a clear focus that there
was a there was a champion that the fans got behind,
and the formuls started with Bruno sat Martino, Pedro Morales
for again, and then Bob Backland the fans got behind him,
and then there were the three wise Men, the Sarcastic
you know, the sarcastic nickname for the Grand Wizard, Fred

(27:09):
Blasting and Captain Blue Albano, and they would bring in
they were desperate to get the title off of the hero,
off of Bob Backlan, and so they would they bring
in rotating, big, mean, nasty heels from around the world,
the best heels, particularly the biggest ones, because it was
a big man territory and Backland would Backlan would be

(27:31):
an underdog. I mean it would look like he might lose,
but he would persevere. And yeah, there was a formula
to it. The first match, if they thought there was
if it seemed like a big deal that this guy
was challenging, if it seemed like, you know, Ivan cole
Off is returning after several years and he beat you know,
at the prime of his career and he beat he
beat Brunos San Martino, Masison, Square Garden for the WF title.

(27:53):
He's going to be a great challenge for the new champion,
Bob Backlan, And so they brought him, you know, they'd
bring him in and maybe the first match would not
have a conclusion, so the second match would they'd have
a rematch, And in this case, Backland beat cole Off
in the second match and shocked a lot of you know,
shock the fans, and really, as the book describes very

(28:15):
well as about Backland describes in this book kind of
cemented fans that he was going to be something, Yeah,
that he was going to be, you know, he was
going to be somebody they could have faith in. But
he would slay these either. He would slay these dragons.
If it was if it was a successful at the

(28:36):
box office, in a successful run that that Vincent J.
McMahon had faith in, then that challenger might get three
three title shots. But the last title shot was going
to be something where the fans knew there was a conclusion.
It would build up a little bit, and then Backlan
would win, and then and then.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
And I joke that's why I joked with Bob about
whether he and his co writer Rob Millers, if they're
final meeting about the book was in a cage because oftentimes,
obviously the Washingtons abosute, but oftentimes the third match in
a series would be a cage match, and that would
be the climax of a few that vinsick Mann Senior
felt was worthy of a three match series with the
cage match blowoff. Let me see if Bob found a

(29:16):
spot with maybe better reception, and we can back to
our conversation with Bob Ackland. Bob, welcome back to the program.
Go ahead and pick up where you left off, and
we'll see all that connection is holding up.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Yeah, I don't think we've got a good connection.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah, Now I can hear you. The last time, it
was real rough.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yeah, I'm outside now and I can't hear you at all.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Okay, Well, I'll do my best to talk up, talk
louder and then, but I'll try to help you do
the majority of the talking and keep my question short.
Go ahead and talk about what it was like watching
the WWF product change after you were champion, because you
started talking about how seriously you took that role at
the champion and having to observe it from the outside
now must have been difficult.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, well you know what uh uh us you don't
feel the same way, but uh you know uh uh
the the way uh you know, Vince Senior had everybody trained,
as you know, has to be have a certain kind
of standards and moral values, and uh we didn't see
that in uh uh you in mister Hogan. We didn't

(30:20):
dislike him, but the guy that we thought you'd want
to have entire company and it was uh this is ah.
It was really weird to listened to him to a
promo and know what he was really doode and what
he was doing and how he wasn't isn't to stimulate.

(30:45):
Uh uh it's uh uh you know, I couldn't. I
have other things on my mind and uh I was well,
uh started other businesses and worked on them, and uh
but I tried to keep busy that he actually tried
to keep my mind away from the is rather than
any much.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
That makes it.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
I was having a real big problem and I've had
a real big, big problem in the eighties about what
am I going to do after I've had the WWE
champion for six years and I didn't think I had
any future at all, and and I read I read
a book back then that helped me turn that around.
And today I believe my future is better than my
past ever was. And that's why one of the reasons

(31:28):
we wrote I wrote the book, and that's the one
of the reasons that was.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
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(32:00):
Todd Martin, Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with
Todd Martin signature VIP series that you're missing out without
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two and enjoy all the benefits, all the bonus content
and the ad free listening experience. Pw toors dot com
slash go vip, you quoted Napoleon Hill at the beginning

(32:21):
of every chapter in your four hundred and eighty page book.
And it was great that you were able to find quotes,
Bob that linked up from Napoleon Hill to the message
of that chapter or the lesson that you were experiencing
life or a theme that applied to that part of
your career. That had to be a pretty cool thing

(32:44):
for you in terms of framing the book that way.

Speaker 3 (32:46):
Yeah, I had the page that you couldn't. I had
the book for me, and I would like it to
be sort of written in the in the same area
about the way and Uh the book well, yeah, I want.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Looks like Bob uh dropped off again Iowa. I'm not
sure what his uh mobile cell phone carrier is, but
Iowa where he is and I was not a good
partner for his cell phone, Bruce. Uh will hope Bob
calls back in again, and uh and we'll bring him
back on when he does, and hopefully we'll get better
reception from it, uh, Bruce. From following Bob's w w

(33:47):
F or excoose me w W well, yeah, w w
F title reign what surprised you the most? And I
know you haven't gotten to the end of the book yet,
and it's a bit uh. You just got it this week,
and like you said, you've been reading it every moment.
But was there anything that jumped out to you that
you did not know that surprised you about the WWF
run that he had And we can talk about a

(34:08):
little bit what happened before that too, but in terms
of his run with the WWF championship, did anything that
you read in that book change your perception or surprise you?

Speaker 2 (34:18):
You know, I was just really happy that Bob Becklin
has an accurate confidence in what he accomplished in the
WWF that to come in and be that new champion
that really wasn't well known in the area and you know,
slowly built up for about a year and a half,
protected all along. There's a lot of lessons for modern
wrestling in this book if WWE or modern promoters want

(34:42):
to look at it of separating out somebody, building them up,
making them into something special over a period of time,
and then pulling the trigger all the way and making
sure that they're protected, making sure that their best attributes
are taking care of them, making sure they're different from
what came before. I mean, Bob talked about Vic Jay

(35:04):
McMahon wanted an All American boy because what he'd had
before was either Puerto Rican ethnic champion or an Italian
ethnic champion, and he wanted to change. He wanted to
have the same Peter Madison, Bruno San Martino, and he
wanted to have the same formula in that he wanted
a babyface champion. He wanted a hero to win, you know,
to win in the end and keep fans happy and

(35:27):
coming back that they could follow. And you know, it's
like it's it's a very simple formula if you think
about it. Wouldn't you love for your favorite sports team
to always be a winner, to always you know, to
be challenged and to have down times, but in the
end persevere And that's what That's the way it was booked.
And so I think that I always wandered in the

(35:49):
last several years, did Bob Becklan understand that he really
accomplished something, you know, six years just about six years,
what was it, five years? Ten months of every single
month in Madison Square Guard. No one's been able to
do this since, and the business changed, That's part of
the reason. But it's hard to imagine John Cena. It's

(36:10):
hard to imagine Brett Hard or Steve Austin or The
Rock or anybody coming into the major arena in the
world every single month and drawing sellouts and drawing you know,
big business for that amount of time and particularly you know,
and and really being relied on, because, as the book
is very good about, you know, there was a couple
of main events in the w w F and that

(36:32):
was it. There wasn't there wasn't a card full of
everybody has a program, everybody has a storyline, everybody has
you know, mid carters in comedy and all this it
was some some just run of the middle matches, you know,
matched up without any kind of storybind and then semi
main events and then Bob Beckland defending the w F title.

(36:55):
I mean maybe some special attractions, maybe not, but Bob
Beckland sending the w F title against whoever the big
challenger was and coming through. And so I think this book,
I mean, I think Backland and his co author really
do a good job of accurately, you know, giving that time.
And then there is some things about Vincent J. McMahon,

(37:16):
such an important figure in professional wrestling history, and so
for this is someone different from from Bruno San Martino,
and that Bob Becklan trusted vincit Jay McMahon and didn't
fight with him over payoffs or anything like that. Just
and just this was the man that picked him for
this job, that had a real confidence and faith in him,

(37:37):
and he was going to do a good job for him.
And he was well paid, you know, and he trusted
that he'd be well paid and he was. And then
you know the change, and we see this with Steve Austin.
We see this was a lot of wrestlers when the
time is up for whatever reason, being on top, how
do you deal with that? Emotionally? How do you deal
with that? Financially? What do you what do you do?

(37:58):
And Bob Becklin, I mean, you know, he he got
out of wrestling and did some other work because and
part of it was it wasn't because he was broke,
was because he was you know, he was trying to
deal with emotionally how to how to deal with that.
He had a certain standard that he really tried to
live with to make that to make that character, you know,
really be authentic. And then Hulk Cogan was so different

(38:22):
in so many ways. And then to see you know,
we see it now, the difference between for the last
several years. I mean, you see the difference between Terry
bole of the person and Hulk Cogan, the larger than
life heroic character. And it must have been tough. I
mean it was, it was something there, but I just
really liked it that Backlan knows it and it's such

(38:44):
I don't want to say it's gossip people. There's a
lot of tiddits with a lot of famous wrestlers all
the way through this that you know, and you know,
but I think back then, you know, back then, like
all of us has, you know, had his inconsistencies, but
he had a very consistent outlook on who he was
and what he was going to do, and he was

(39:05):
going to come through with it. And I think he
found the right job in professional wrestling for him. I
don't know that he would have been a successful n
w A champion or even a Homesteading Territory champion, but
but I mean he was in the w w F.
I mean he was you know, he had you know,
four or five years of a good run then kind
of coming down the hill at the end, but he

(39:25):
was something and there's you know, there's a ton of
watching him with Gainst, Greg Valentine, watching him with Don Morocco,
watching the watching him.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Lord.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
I mean, they're great about the Pat Patterson matches, and boy,
those were those are out there and those are something
that was that you know, we've talked about this. I
mean Pat Patterson really really did a great job of
Bob Ackland and put him over the top. As far
as you know, this was the w w F champion
that was. He was the guy that the fans really

(39:54):
were going to stand behind.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Let's let's see if we have a better connection with
Bob now he just gave us a call back. Bob,
thank cell phone technology lets us down a lot, so UH,
trust me, we understand, and I appreciate your effort to
keep reconnecting with us. Go ahead and uh let us
know how your connection is with a few words.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
Yeah, I don't think it's gonna be very good, but
I want to thank you.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
I know.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
I hope I can do it sometime when I can
be on a home phone and uh and not have
this problem.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, let's let's let's uh plan for another interview on
a hardline and we'll work that out. Because four hundred
and eighty pages of a really really good book that
I'd like to get into a discussion with you on
when we don't have the stress of of the bad connection.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
So yeah, well it's yeah, it's no good to listen
to somebody and you can't hear them, So yeah, yeah,
you know, I definitely want to do it as soon
as we can. I'm gonna be on the road for
a few more days, but uh, you know we can,
uh we get that something up when I'm at home,
uh and not have this problem.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
I totally und I appreciate. We'll both be more relaxed
and get into it, and I'll be in touch with
you and we'll schedule something for that down the line
very soon here in the next handful of days. Okay, Bob,
thank you so much, Thank you very much, sir. Absolutely Okay.
What we're gonna do here is we're gonna just take
a rain check with Bob Ackland and going in depth
on it. Obviously, if you've listened to us from the

(41:18):
beginning here, we're just not having luck with the cell
phone connection. So what we'll do for the remainder of
the twenty minutes is give a preview here of what
will end up being a really good in depth Trust me,
it'll be good and in depth. Bruce Mitchell audio show
for VIP members discussing the Bob Beckland book. But Bruce,
are you fine filling out twenty minutes here discussing a
little bit about the book?

Speaker 2 (41:36):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Yeah? Good? So really no, No, it totally is. And
I mean really, I think Bob wants to talk about it.
I know you and I want to talk to him
about it. And when he's on a hard line, I
can tell it's gonna be a good interview. So we
got a little sample of it. We got to hear
Bob's voice and have them talked a little bit about
the making of the book and got a few questions in.
So I feel good about that. But we definitely want

(41:57):
hopefully we can get at least an hour maybe more,
are really diving into some issues. One thing that is
a big part of the first half of the book.
One of the bigger stories in the first half is
the decision to go with Bob Backland instead of other candidates.
When Brunoso Martino was he just didn't he didn't want

(42:18):
to work the schedule anymore. And you can talk about
that a little bit Bruce, but also talk about the
decision not to stick with Superstar Billy Graham. I thought
that Bob in this book talked, he painted a really
good picture, and I give his his co author credit.
In fact, I'd like to have his co author on
the show sometime. But the book gives a really detailed
picture on Graham's body language and demeanor and mood when

(42:42):
he had to lose the title to Bob. But the
level of respect that hinnsic Man Senior had among the wrestlers,
and that what he said is what went that would
be I mean, if Ben Senior said it, that's what
you did. And there's other examples of that in the
book too, where wrestlers didn't always like the finish or
the match that was handed out, or they were always
hoping for the three title matches in a row at MSG,

(43:04):
but they didn't always get it. It felt almost like
Johnny Carson to date ourselves here, Bruce waving people over,
comedians over to chat with him on the Tonight show
after they would do their stand up routine. If Johnny
said thank you, you know, and you were you would leave,
you would be disappointed. Didn't mean he didn't like you.
But if he did choose you to come chat with

(43:25):
him after your stand up, it was an endorsement. I
kind of got the feeling that that's sort of how
wrestlers looked at getting multiple title matches during the Bob
Eckland title run era, especially at MSG, you know, two
three months in a row, so kind of a lot
of there's a lot I'm saying here because there's a
lot in the book, but Superstar Graham was very disappointed
handing over that championship when the time came. Talk about

(43:47):
your historical opinion on whether that was a slam dunk
good decision looking back at things, or if you think
Graham could have caught on as a babyface even and
almost been a precursor to Hokamania as the muscular babyface
who was a very different wrestler than say Bruno and
Bob war.

Speaker 5 (44:08):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (44:23):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 2 (44:39):
You know, it's really interesting to think about that because here's.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
My question, was so long to come? Twenty minutes? Lot
of time?

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Well go ahead, okay, sorry, Well my answer to that
is sure, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
No.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
You know, Superstar Billy Graham. I mean, when you look
at Superstar Billy Graham's life, this is what this is
what happened he had that he had that that ten
month run they'd never had in WWS a heel champion,
and so he defended against Tony Geria, he defended against
you know, he defended against Peter Myavilla. He defended against

(45:13):
Larry Zubisco, not in Madison Square Garden, but he did
defend against him. He defended against kem peterra up in Maine.
I thought that was really interesting that Bangor, Maine and
the main end of the territory way up north was
where Vincent J. McMahon experimented with with matchups and tried
things out, and that that would happen in the Carolinas too,

(45:35):
and Jim Crockett promotions around that same time. So I
thought that was and I think that did happen in
Georgia some too, you know, the kind of like we'll
try this match up out. No one will hear about it,
but we'll see how it goes. But if you look
at superstow Billy Graham's life, I mean, he was on fire.
He's selling out in the biggest arenas, the biggest territory,

(45:56):
the most populous one, making a ton of money. He
looks like, you know, a blond god that's come down
from you know, cold down from Mount Olympus. I mean,
he looked great, and he had a real you know,
the best part of his game was promos, and no
one had cut promos like that in in the WWF,

(46:17):
and so you know that that really stylized cool rock
and roll, sound of the street Preacher, all that stuff,
with all the with all the sayings and you know,
all the catchphrases and all that stuff. And so people were,
you know, New York is New Yorker show business, and
people were responding to that, and they were going, you know,

(46:38):
they were going to the matches and then to be
told this is going to end no matter how no
matter how well you draw, no matter how whatever you do,
this is going to end. And we're going to hand
it off to this young kid who's a great you know,
who is a great amateur wrestler who looks good but
doesn't really have a good promo and has never drawn

(47:02):
on top of a promotion at the level we're going
to ask him to and no matter what you say,
the promoter says, I'm going to. This is my word.
And so, you know, Billy Graham is trying to figure
out some way to stay, including the you know, the
famous story the weekend before of switching the title back

(47:23):
to Bruno San Martino, changing the finish of a cage
match where the cage match, you know, and they'd sold out,
They had a ton of people in Philadelphia because Bruno
San Martino was such a hero and he was going
to get his revenge, you know, steel cage match meant
he was getting his revenge again, his title back against
superstar Billy Graham, and they booked a finish where Bruno,

(47:44):
through his own strength, would accidentally throw Graham through the door,
you know, kick his ass and throw them through the door,
and Graham by the Fluke, of all Flukes, would would
hold on to his title. So Graham wanted to kind
of do, accidentally on purpose, the same thing to to
Bruno sam Martino and have Sam Martino have the title

(48:05):
and then stay there to try to get it back
and to extend his run, because then there'd be a
ton of rematches with him, and you know, they keep
it off of Backlin and all that. And you know,
Bruno was smart enough not to want to do that
because because the one option that Vincent Man, this Jamie
Man would have taken over Bob Becklan would have to
get Bruno Sammartino back because he was the proven draw

(48:28):
and the only reason why Bruno. You know, Bruno said,
I'll give you a year, and they stretched it into
two and he would have kept it forever. And Bruno said,
no more. I'm not doing this anymore. It's like I've
made my money. I don't want to I want to
go out on top. I saw what happened, as Bob
Backland describes, I saw what happened to gorgeous George at
the end of his career. I don't want to be
that remember when that guy was great. This was really

(48:48):
sad wrestler, and so Graham, you know Graham at the
height of his drawing power in you know, making all
this money and loving the attention and you know, really
being in a groove with everything. Then loses the title.
He gets his rematches. But the formal always was you

(49:09):
get your rematches and then you work semi finals, and
then you have a territory and you go somewhere else.
And at the same time, I think emotionally it crushed him.
I think physically that did something to him because he
disappeared into Arizona, he worked something for Paul Bosh, and
his appearance was never the same. I mean, he never

(49:31):
looked like that Greek god again. And part of it
was he took so many steroids, took he took so
much stuff that the bill came do at the same
time that emotional bill came due. And his life has
never been the same. And he suffered a lot. And
you can say, you know, Carney and con Man and liar,
and but one of the things about him was he lied,

(49:53):
and he did con things and all that, and he
also told the truth about a lot of things too
during you know, during that time. But could could Superstar
Billy Graham been that hulk Hogan hero, that jive talking
Dusty Rhodes with a great body, who you know, who
became the babyface hero. I think he could have been

(50:16):
for a year or two. But I think I think
physically he would have worn out. I think that mentally
he might have worn out too. And just the truth
was that that and and the in the in the book,
Boy Becklam makes a very good point, and I think
that Vincent J. McMahon had this point too, that they
had run through babyface challengers for Billy Graham. The idea was,

(50:40):
though that a hot heel, like that, a hot cool heel,
even though people hated him, You turn him into a
baby face at that moment, and then he then he's
very successful as the babyface. And so maybe that could
have been done, particularly with you know, particularly with if
someone had jumped Bruno and Superstar Billy Graham had saved him,
you would have then off to the races with you know,

(51:02):
his his great rival, had you know, said I have
too much respect for him to see someone like you,
you know, treat him that way. I'm going to stand
up to him. That might have been something, but it
really changed Billy Graham's life and not for the better.
And you know there was the famous I mean he
came back to Challenge after a couple of years later,

(51:22):
I think eighty two or eighty three, he came back
to I think eighty two, he came back to Challenge
by Backland and if you looked at the blonde hair
god that that with a lower case g, that that
Billy Graham was as the champion. And then he came
back in a karate gee, knowing no karate and he

(51:44):
looked like an old man. And they gave him one
or two matches too, and he looked so different, shaved head,
no blonde hair, just not any energy. And even as promos,
you know, same voice, but there was something missing. And
there were rumors all up and down the Northeast that
superstar Billy Graham had died and that this guy was

(52:07):
a replacement. Was it was, you know, an eye precursor
to the BS rumors you know years later about Ultimate Warrior,
there's a second Ulphate Warrior, and you know, all that
stuff we had to kind of live with for several years.
You know, the kind of the periphery of professional wrestling
that that Jim Helwig wasn't playing his role anymore because
he looked so different. So yeah, I mean, but I

(52:29):
also think that the arch type that Vincent Kennedy mt
Man followed and hul Cogan was, he couldn't get Billy Graham,
that Billy Graham from just a few years ago because
that guy didn't exist anymore. He looked different. So he
wanted the blonde haired superhero, and hul Cogan was doing

(52:49):
a great job as the blondehaired superhero in the AWA,
and he got him.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Anytime you're watching ww E RAH or SmackDown or aw
DA Mine in particular, send us an email if you've
got thoughts on the show or a topic you want
us to address or a question for us. Wade Keller
Podcast at pw torch dot com, Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. If there's anything else going on in
pro wrestling that you want us to address on our
main podcast during our Mailbank segments, that same email applies

(53:20):
Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. We invite
that interaction. Let us know what you think of what
we're saying, and let us know what you want us
to talk about and ask us specific questions Wade Keller
podcast at PW Torch dot com. What where do you
fall on? I mean, I know what is addressing the book,
and you talked about it at Graham he ran through

(53:41):
the top baby faces, and I don't know that Graham
was necessarily ever booked to be a long term champion.
And I think that's one of the in the discussions
that I've heard, you know, the pros and cons and
Billy being upset, but I was drawing, But I was
drawing and you could attorn me face and the crowd,
certain part of the crowd is cheering for me. Could
they have adjusted Bruce Billy Graham's the made him a
baby face and adjusted the way they booked him and

(54:02):
had a whole line of fresh opponents by basically feeding
him the heels that Bob ended up facing, Like, was
that even a realistic option or do you think the
more realistic option was stick with Graham for a while
until he stopped drawing, and then look at Backland and
a few others. And by the way, as a sidebar,
Bob made it really clear that Vince Senior promised him this,
and Vin Senior was going to be a man of

(54:23):
his word, regardless of how well Billy Graham was drawing.
But there was more to it than that, because I
think Vin Senior thought Billy would not continue to draw
like that. But was there a way to make the
best of that situation even if there was some skepticism
by Vince Junior.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Well, well, I mean, here's the thing the business was
based on. And it wasn't the most exciting booking plan.
It wasn't the most shocking or anything like that. It
was just you went to see Brunos Sam Martinez headline
as the WF champion, and you knew that guy sooner

(54:57):
or later was going to get the best to grill
a monsoon Cowboy Bill Watts or Killer Kowalski or Ivan
cole Loft or Ken Petera he was going to come
out with, or Nikolai Volkoff, he was going to come
out with that championship. Now, they might beat him up,
they might get an unfair advantage on him, he might

(55:19):
be in real jeopardy, but in the end he's gonna
persevere because that's what the Italian people do. That's what
people in New York do, That's what people in Boston
and Philadelphia and all the people that stood with him,
not just not just the Italians, and so that formula
made everybody involved a lot of money. And it's one
thing to go. We're going to have a heel champion

(55:42):
set up and kept fairly strong for a year or
so while we groom this new star. And that's what
the wrestling business needs right now, you know, a new
star that we have supreme faith in that we're not
going to back off of. And we've got a plan
to keep him to the side, but from special and
you know, send and you know, and there's not the

(56:05):
demands of television. W R, the New York superstation, you know,
ran wrestling at midnight on Saturday nights, and if you're
a wrestling fan and you had cable, you watch that
show and you put your you know, you set your
VCR to it and you watch that show. And it
was kind of dull, you know, but it was wrestling.
And John Malucy sat in the Saturday Night Live the

(56:26):
dressing room watching w o R Championship Wrestling before he
went out for you know, those historic Saturday night Live
shows and sometimes they you know, sometimes he wouldn't go
out because he was just digging the wrestling and you
know he but anyway, so you didn't have that ratings thing.
You didn't have that. We've got to draw every quarter hour.

(56:47):
We we've got to you know, television is where the
money was. Arenas were where the money was, and so
keeping things clear and simple and not staying ahead and
not getting too far ahead of fans or confusing them
was very import important to those old line promoters, very
important to Vincent Vincent Jay McMahon. And you know, things change.
I'm not saying better for worse, it's just how how

(57:08):
it is. I mean, I think if you told vicit
jabc Man you can make this many millions of dollars
producing a television show for a TV for a TV network.
You don't even have to go to an arena to
make this money, he'd ha jumped up and down. I mean,
I think all those old promoters would have loved that.
But so Graham. I think Graham turned babyface might have worked,

(57:31):
but they weren't going to change their business and have
it be a heel somehow escape with the championship month
after month after month, disappointing fans at the end. If
you want a great example of what that can turn into.
You can leave Jim Crockett Promotions in eighty six, well
not eighty six, they were doing great, but eighty seven
and eighty eight where the champion as great as he

(57:55):
was the all time best performer. Rick Flair in the
business was weakened all the time. I mean he was
getting his you know, he he sold all the time.
He never got much of a he never got to
beat much of anybody. And and if he did, it
was because you know, Tully Blanchard took a steel chair
to Dusty Rose's leg and wore it out, or Roddy

(58:18):
Garvin beat him up all those times and finally threw
him into a cage and caught him on a rebound.
That was about it. People knew that Rick Flair was
a better wrestler and a better champion in many ways
in hul Cogan. But hul Cogan was kept strong, he
won his matches. Rick Flair was either frustrating fans who
who bought into you know, this bad guy should be

(58:39):
beaten and they never beat him, or he was frustrating
fans who thought he should have been winning his matches
and were more than ready to cheer for him. And
so they had to either turn Billy Graham and go
back to their formula of having a babyface, a hero
champion that the fans could get behind. And and if
you look at Billy Graham in the ring, then I

(59:00):
mean he was a great act, but he was very limited.
If he had career, you know, if he had some
chemistry with somebody, he could do something. But he couldn't
do a whole lot where Bob Becklan could come in,
be fresh, be the baby face, new character, you know,
the all American boy, which is huge in the culture,
and there's no play. There doesn't seem to be any

(59:21):
place for a character like that in wrestling. John Cena
is like a third of that because he does say
the words a lot of the time and and he's
gotten to be about a half of that in the
last year or so, you know, just being a straightforward,
you know, a straight shooting hero character. But you know,
and part of it was the culture changed on about

(59:41):
Backland and people got sick of him. But it's sick
of how white milk he was, what a goodie two
shoes he was. You know, they didn't want to hear
about the morals and the ethics and all that. They
just wanted to see a fight. But Backland, you know,
coming in then you had he could have more matches
with a lot of people. Now, Backlin was a better

(01:00:02):
wrestler in the ring than superstar Wily Graham. But Backlan
had his limitations too, and it depended on his opponents
as to whether you were going to see a good match.
You know, unbelievably strong. I would got stronger than John
Cena and could do a lot of the chain wrestling
and the amateur wrestling, but you know was not going
to you know, if you weren't to his strengths and

(01:00:23):
you knew how to do it. If a great Valentine
worked with him, you could have a good match. But
he had to he had to share stinkers too. I
mean he had to share matches where you just and
part of it was he you know, he talks about it. Bulldog,
bulldog brower. He had his they had. They brought him
some opponents that were a little bit low lower down.
The Totem Pole, the one I always think about it.
I love this guy. I grew up with this guy

(01:00:44):
and when I was a kid, he was a badass.
When I would watch wrestl when I was a little kid,
who is sweet Hanson, But I never understood how Sweet
Hanson got made events in Massive Square Garden against Backland
so early on when his you know, he'd had a
heart attack, he was you know, an older veteran enhancement
talent down here and then went and did that and

(01:01:05):
got a run run up there and then became enhancement
talent for them too for w w F two. But
I mean, I think that you weren't going, to my
point being, you weren't gonna keep a heel champion month
after month, headlining Massive Square Garden, headlining the Boston Gardens.
That just didn't make sense. They were going that their
fans had been educated to You're gonna come see your hero,

(01:01:27):
you know, ull see Tom Brady more. He's gonna win
the super Bowl. He might lose a few games along
the way, but he's never really gonna be beaten, and
he's gonna win the super Bowl every year. That was
you know, for for your New England Patriots, that was
that was the way that you know, that was, that
was how that was booked, and it worked. You know,
would it have worked, would have continued to work there

(01:01:49):
were there were changes in the air, and Vincent, the
son Vicent Man saw those cable changes and reacted to
it with his father been able to at his age.
I don't know it's worth voting that decent man is
older than his father was when his father turned the
company over to him. Yeah, hold the company to him.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
No, that is worth noting.

Speaker 7 (01:02:13):
Longing for some nostalgia, or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very week.
Follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:02:33):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Past Cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
If you're listening to us talk about Bob Eckland, this
is a teaser for what we'll be giving VIP members
in when Bruce and I talk about the Bob Beckland
Book and probably spend a good amount of time an
hour or two uh rolling through a lot of these
issues one at a time in depth that are brought
up by One of the things that was fascinating about
the book, and it continues well into the second half.

(01:03:14):
Brust is just the description of each of his opponents
month after month after month at MSG and some of
the spot shows, and and the demeanor.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
And you know, you're talking about w Hall of famers
like the Big Catterny Lad. You're talking about some major
figures in professional wrestling here history with this fresh faced
Maine eventor dealing with the challenges you know both as
you know in the ring as a champion, you know,
as a world champion, and then also as of a

(01:03:45):
ring too. And it's it's fascinating. It's cool, kid that
its good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
It is. And he had the endorsement of Vin Senior
and the respect of a number of wrestlers. But at
the same time as he gets into he got tested
sometimes you know, Stan Hansen and Bob. There's a fascinating
account of that dynamic by Backlin in the book Angelo
Mosca and getting stiff with Bob and Bob firing back

(01:04:11):
at him. This is not just Bob, you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Know, I will say this, the Bob Becklin that came
in there, and you know, seventy nine of seventy seven,
seventy eight, seventy nine. You know, you had to have
some you had to have some guts to want to
want to like stiff that guy, because I mean you're
talking about one of his signature moves was someone to
catch him in an arm bar, and he would he

(01:04:36):
would pick a two hundred and seventy pound man up
dead lifted with one arm, walk him over to the
ring post and put him down. Yes, I mean you're
just like you know I would read that and go,
what in the you know, I mean I knew, you
know clearly that was gonna happen. Clear there'd be some jealousy, clue,
it'd be some you don't deserve this, and I'm gonna
I'm gonna do that, and you know, and if there's

(01:04:57):
anybody tougher in wrestling to Stan Hanson, I don't know who,
it was, San Hansen. When he liked you, was gonna
beat you up. That was just his style. So if
he did like you, you know, you can imagine. But
you know, everybody raved about. You know, when you got
people like Harley Race, who's considered one of the toughest
wrestlers of this generation in and outside, in and out
of the ring, saying, you know, Bob Beckham was nobody

(01:05:18):
to fool with, and Bob Becklam must have been nobody
to fool with.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
And yeah, and what I'm getting at here is this book.
Because I'm putting this book over. I mean, it's it's
really worth a read. It's it's not dry. Even though
you would say, well, I saw Bob Ackland matches, I
bet it's you know, somebody might have a preconception about
what it is. He doesn't just talk about who he
wrestled and how great the match was and all that.
It's like he gets into the personalities behind the scenes

(01:05:42):
in the locker room, the dynamic in the ring, who
tested him, who worked with him. He was absolutely spares
no criticism of Ivan Putsky compared to say George the
Animal Steel in terms of what the two were like
to work with in the ring. Same with Mill Mascos.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
Well, I had to say everybody loved Ivan Pusky like
no Avin. Puffy was the classic, you know, show business
cliche of the great nice guy who was friendly to
everybody when the camera was on and as soon as
the camera is off. Hope that satisfied the little bastards.
I mean that's him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
Yes, So this book is a march through who's who
of wrestlers who travel through. There's stories about outside of
the WWF territory that Bob tells about Nick Bockwinkle, about
Antonio and Noki, about Dusty Rhodes in Japan, A great
story about a match with Dusty in Japan. There is
It's worth the price of the book alone to read

(01:06:37):
the story about two thirds of the way through the
book about Andre the Giant and that he broke his
ankle and his girlfriend at the time was staying in
a separate hotel room right next to his and Andre
woke up and heard people having sex through the wall
of the hotel. And I don't want to give too

(01:06:58):
much away, but I will say that if you imagine
the shock of having sex, well the kool aid Man
burst through a wall to your room of sheet rock,
imagine that not being the kool aid Man and cursus
by data is too Hopefully people half our audience seeing
those commercials or maybe think shock Master, maybe imagine that
in the middle of the act and there's a punchline

(01:07:21):
to it. All. And I think Andre and his girlfriend
were good in a good place after this. I'll just
say that. So that's worth the book too. There's some
really fun stories in the book. Bob's got a sense
of humor, sense humor about himself. The quotes from people
in the who we worked with writing about Bob, I
thought was really good in the sense that they weren't

(01:07:43):
always just like glowing complimentary putting them over. There were
comments from different workers who's talked about how green he
was at the time, or you know, certain limitations he had,
and he put that. You know, that stuff made it
into the book. It seems unedited. So I thought it
was a really honest assessment of Bob's strengths and limitations.
And so yeah, I'm really looking forward to talking to
you more about it, Bruce with a Bruce Mitchelladio show

(01:08:05):
as we march through all of these stories, some of
which you haven't even gotten to when you're reading of
the book, and then having Bob on the show again.
So Bruce, thanks for being here for me. I did.
I expected you to be the co interviewer and not
not be leaned on so much to analyze the book,
but because of our bad phone connection with Bob we had.
He had to drop off early, but we will have
him back perhaps as soon as next week.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Yeah, look forward to that. It's a great book. By
the book, if you know what I have to say,
I'm you know, in the last week or so, I'm
getting you know, social media messages from friends of mine
going I got the book, I'm reading this. I'm looking
at that. So you know, it's and you know, and
as I said, I mean, I think it's very much
if you're curious about a guy who is one of

(01:08:48):
the foundations, one of the pillars that you know, the
wrestling that you watch is built on, and all the
other people that were around, all the other big stars
that were around at that time, and McMahon say to
that dynamic, which is always fascinating. You know this this
is a book to get.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
I totally agree, Bruce. I know your times limited tonight,
so thank you for joining us, and we'll talk to
you later this week for the Bruce mitchellatio Show. And
tomorrow you'll be hosting the pow Torch Live cast, same time,
seven Eastern with Travis Bryant talking about just an incredible
I mean, think of all the stuff that's happened, Bruce
since you and Travis last died a show. The MSG
Show Saturday Night feels like ancient history, bound for glory,

(01:09:27):
a big additional Monday Night Raw with Brock Lesner coming
out and more rating struggles than a Tuesday breather. And
then the incredible NXT Takeover Special and one of my
favorite shows. Just amazing, just two hours and fifteen minutes
of intangibles being done well, I thought, I'm curious to
get your take on that, and then and Impact announcing

(01:09:51):
this hodge Podge tournament for the vacant World Championship. Just
so many things happening in wrestling, So I look forward
to you and Travis stop breaking it down on the
live cast tomorrow and then us getting in depth on
it on the Bruce Mitchelladio Show. By the way, Todd
Martin will be joining Greg Parks on Moonlighting with Greg
Parks this weekend talking about the TNA World Title Tournament

(01:10:13):
debacle as as Todd put it in an email to me,
and also his thoughts on the NXT special, which I
know he liked a lot. So VIP members can look
forward to you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Know, as we're saying too I haven't had a chance
to listen because I want to read the book first.
But I heard a lot of good things about you
and Todd talking about boy back on the sixth, a
week or so ago.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Good, good, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Yeah, so you know, I appreciate you to you know,
having an embargo on the book so I couldn't get
to it before you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
But it's called it, you know what it's called accepting
technology and downloading it, downloading ebook like I did. I
just so people know, I told Bruce, if you want
to read it right away, download the epookeys. I'm not
reading it on a damn ebook. Send me a card copy.
So right, yes, yes, yeah, so there's no embargo. It's
a self book. It's a self imposed uh self neposed, Yes,

(01:11:01):
gick it up, that's what it is. Bruce, thanks so
much again for like the third time here. Appreciate you
being here to help fill out the show. Thanks to
our listeners. I assumed if you're on hold, you didn't
want to talk to us, you wanted to talk to Bob.
So we'll stay tuned for an announcement. Follow me on
Twitter at the Wade Keller to get updates on Bob's
next appearance on the show. We really look forward to

(01:11:22):
that Bruce and Travis tomorrow. If you're not a VIP
member and you want to hear the Todd Martin Show
with the moodlighting with Greg Park's Todd Martin discussion on
NXT and TNA, and probably SmackDown also this weekend. And
if you want to hear Todd Martin and I discussed
the Bob Backland book in depth for over an hour
and you want to be the first to hear Bruce
Mitchell and I go in depth on this also so
much more with a VIP membership, not just audio, but

(01:11:44):
also our weekly newsletter in PDF and text format twenty
eight years of Backyard. If you start, don't type Amazon
dot com, typepw Torch dot com slash Amazon. That's it
for today, Thank you everybody, and until next time, behalf
of Bruce ma Mitchell and Bob Backland. This is Weightkeller
signing off. You don't have to wait for the Weight

(01:12:24):
Keller PROG Wrestling post show to find out what I
thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week. You
can check out my reports that are updated live throughout
Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report
will tell you what's happening in detail in case you
missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments
and give my random thoughts quips on what I am
watching as it airs. So check it out every Monday

(01:12:46):
night and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also
applies to WWE pay perviews. I cover those live at
pw torch dot com with a detailed written report with
star ratings, and of course you can find other TV
reports from other contributors to pw torch such as nxt ROAH,
Impact Wrestling and more. Check it out pw torch dot
com your first stop for TV and pay per view

(01:13:08):
written reports. All right, we're now in the VIP after

(01:13:32):
show portion of Tuesday's pw torch live cast on Tuesday,
September twenty ninth, twenty fifteen. I'm Mad Keller with PW
Torch VIP, joined by Jason powelloprogressling dot net. This is
a member's only after show following the live cast with
a lot of live callers. Jason just reflecting on the
show how representative of the WWE audience and the solutions

(01:13:55):
that would work. Do you think our callers are.

Speaker 8 (01:14:01):
It really varies. You know, there are some really good ideas,
then there's some that I would kind of label more
this is what I like, and so I think everyone
will and they're not always looking at the big picture.
But I do think there's some excellent calls though that
really some you know, that there's some good ideas out

(01:14:21):
there that aren't just you know, fantasy booking for their
own taste and really are looking at things beyond just
their own like with their own likes and dislikes.

Speaker 1 (01:14:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I just think the exasperation that we
hear with the callers in the lack of and it's
not like we don't invite or that we scare away
people who disagree. I mean, you know, people disagree because
they think we make really good points and they don't
know how to counter it. Well, you know, that's fine.
I'm not gonna apologize that. But we don't like make
it sound like everybody who calls has to agree with us.

(01:14:53):
I just I do think it's pretty difficult to argue
right now with these ratings, and I do think it's
it really is time for change. So we'll see if
that happens. Jason, I'm curious what you thought before we
get to emails here of the Big Show, Paul Hayman's segment,
and the way that they hype the MSG special, which

(01:15:14):
was more prominent than I expected, especially compared to NXT
Takeover and the Japan Special. They promoted this almost like
a pay per view main event. What did you think
of of the way that they went about it and
then the execution of it.

Speaker 8 (01:15:29):
I say, quit going halfway, and I mean, they've announced
two matches for this show, and that's what they focused on,
and that's it. And I say, if you're going to
do this, then you know you don't have to make
it seem as big as hell want to sell, but
make it feel like it's a big deal by announcing
some of the other things on this show. And I
don't think the average WWE viewer who hasn't seen one

(01:15:51):
of these shows before knows what they're tuning in for.
They may just think there's a proc lustern big show
match which probably doesn't really appeal to them, and tag
title match, which may or may not, and then that's it.
They're not telling you you're gonna see an entire Show.
They're not telling you Chris Jericho's advertised, Kevin Owens, John Cena,
there's nothing. And as far as the promost concerned, I

(01:16:13):
felt like Paul Hayman did what he could is to
sell this tired match that people have seen too many times,
that doesn't feel fresh, doesn't feel unique, and then Big
Show came out and kind of ruined things again. You're
just reminded, oh, yeah, it is Big Show. And then
he goes out there and I mean, just within seconds,

(01:16:35):
takes away one part of the compelling portion of that
segment by telling Paul Hayman, I'm not here to hurt you.
I mean, I just thought that was a mistake. It's like, okay,
well then there's not you know, I don't have to
fear for Paul Hayman, so I can ease up now,
you know, I don't need to. This isn't tense. This
is just Big Show talking. And he did. Big Show

(01:16:57):
just doesn't convince me that he stands a chance against
brock Lessner even a little bit. And so I didn't
think the hype was very effective at all.

Speaker 1 (01:17:05):
And you also you talked about Big Show kind of
undoing with Paul Hayman or undoing certain things that might
have worked in the dynamic of that promo. If Paul
Hayman makes the case that you're a threat to brock Lesner,
even though you haven't been over the course of your
WWE career, always a top tier threat. I thought Paul
Hayman created an explanation for Big Show being the math
genius and sixth grade who's bored. I don't know if

(01:17:27):
Paul's talking about his own kids or what drawn from
his real life in that one, but you know, Big
Show shouldn't walk out and go. How dare you call
me complacent like I think Big Show should walk out
and go? Paul. I'm not going to comment on some
of the things that you said, but one thing that
I do want to assure you of is that you're
going to get the best Big Show possible because you're right.

(01:17:49):
I am going to be amped up to shut up
you and brock Lesner. I mean whatever you know. I mean,
he knows his character well. But I don't think Big
Show should be out. Are undoing what Paul said, which
is Big Show is a threat to brock Lesnar despite
what you've seen in the last ten years and I know,
and Paul's like, Paul, you know, Paul White comes out
the Big Show. Oh what are you talking about, Paul.
I'm always always try my hardest. I'm just that mediocre.

(01:18:11):
So I thought that was kind of bad. And in
the end, I really wasn't sure who I was supposed
to cheer for because Big Show, you know, bounces back
and forth with the heel and face so much, and
Paul Hayman is not the most likable, endearing character, and
Brock is so cool you kind of got to cheer him.
But I didn't think they really drew that line or
even intended to draw a real line where you people
were now really motivated to see Brock Lesnar shut up

(01:18:33):
the Big Show, and I kind of wanted that to happen.
I thought the mission of that promo should have been
when it's over, more than anything, people want to see
Brock Lesnar take Big Show to Suplex City, and I
don't think they accomplished that. I thought it was built.
It was Big Show rehab, you know, try to rehab
Big Show's image, but they didn't do what they needed
to do to get people excited to see Big Show

(01:18:55):
lose to Brock and get beat up by him. So
there's some little sligh about it that I liked, but
mostly I thought in the end it didn't really do
what I think it should have done well.

Speaker 8 (01:19:06):
And with the Big Show where youhab weight, I feel
like the audience thirteen and above sees it for what
it is. They know why Big Show is winning, and
they don't take it serious. They just say, Okay, they're
building them up for brock Lesner and and he's going
to get beat and go right back to being Big
Show again. I don't think you need to be some
savvy online wrestling fan too to see that formula.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
Let's take some email questions Kyle and Emmeldon said once
and he wants to know what is morale like in
TNA considering its uncertain future.

Speaker 8 (01:19:36):
Well, I mean, I guess we'll find out more this weekend.
I mean, they had house shows and guys are happy
with that. The big concern now is television, and there's
not a television taping announced they run out of it.
Seems like they run on a first run material as
of this week, and they're tape There's there's taping a

(01:20:00):
one night only series event in late October, but that's
a pay per view, it's not impact. I did check
with TEENA, and two people high up on the food
chain said, yeah, there's first round material coming. But I'm
still you know, I get calls from guys in the
company who have no idea that you know, there's They're
not aware of any television tapings or anything like that,

(01:20:21):
and so they don't know where this material is coming
from and how they're going to do this. Are they
going to show up at one of these house shows
this weekend and the camera crew is going to be
their surprise or no one really knows that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:32):
I think the area, the dying days, the A w A,
that's what we're in for.

Speaker 8 (01:20:37):
Oh boy. Yeah. But I just I think there's some
acceptance here of just Okay, this is bleak, but at
least I'm able to go out and work more indie dates,
and you know, I hope this works, but if it doesn't,
then I just think they've been so through so many
of these situations now that there's not the panic that
there used to be. It's just kind of guys shrugging

(01:20:59):
their shoulders, rolling their eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
I think TNA has undergone such a slow, painful downturn
in terms of what they were and what the hope
was to what they are now. And I mean there's
always been frustrations in TNA. The young guys with big
upsides felt politically that you know, money was being spent
on has beens who weren't who didn't care as much
about the brand and weren't weren't the lifers who had

(01:21:23):
built the brand. And I mean there's always been gripes.
But there's not a lot of money left to lose
at this point for talent. You know, there's just not
a lot of top paid guys making their living in
TNA anymore. So it's hard for morale to be damaged
because somebody is going to lose one payoff every two
months or you know, three payoffs. So in that sense,
the morrele isn't it's just it's sort of at a

(01:21:46):
low level, but it can almost only go up because
I think a lot of people were just sort of
resigned to it ending, you know, right around now and.

Speaker 8 (01:21:55):
Yeah, well I don't. It's hard to feel like a
team when you're not around your team match and yeah,
they see them. It's been what since August, I think
is when they are July, when they had television tapings.
I mean, they're just it's not They just started a
tour again with their first live events this year, so
it's just kind of been this television taping company for

(01:22:15):
a while now.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
Exactly. Yep.

Speaker 9 (01:22:23):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
Pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate and I'm Chris Lansdowe join us as
we covered the ever changing landscape of New Japan as
they navigate an era with no lack of talent but a.

Speaker 8 (01:22:43):
Real need to create some news staves. You can stream
the new seven Stop podcasts now from Pro Wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
Talk all Right. He also wants to know what will
it take for vincick Man to trust Triple H more
with creative decisions.

Speaker 8 (01:23:05):
I don't know that there's a lack of trust weight.
I just think it's Vince is the alpha, and he's
always going to stay the alpha and you know, have
that final call. I mean, obviously trust him with NXT.
We haven't seen him that I know that I'm aware
of anyway, I'm not aware of him meddling in NXT,
so he's letting him do his thing there. When it
comes to the main roster, it's you know, it's Vince

(01:23:27):
as sandbox.

Speaker 1 (01:23:28):
Yeah yeah. And Colin also wants to know who do
you think Triple H was more influenced by? Bill Wats,
Jim Crockett or Vince McMahon.

Speaker 8 (01:23:35):
Bill wants Jim Crockett, who was it? Again?

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
Who is?

Speaker 8 (01:23:40):
Who's?

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Who is Triple A?

Speaker 8 (01:23:41):
Who? Counter?

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:23:43):
Who is Triple H Hunter been more influenced by in
terms of his philosophy of promoting studying the promoting of
Vincic Man, Jim Crockett, Bill Watts.

Speaker 8 (01:23:52):
Well, I think it has to be Vince just because
he's around him day to day. You know, he may
be influenced by some of the things he's seen on
tape over the years, or you know, just things like that.
But I don't know that he's had one on one conversations,
you know, in a meaningful way with the Bill Watts
or a Crockett. So I yeah, I think it has
to be advanced, doesn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Wait, yeah, I think so too. It doesn't mean that
he doesn't see a lot of flaws in Vincent Mann
also that maybe he you know, I think I think
Triple Ah is smart enough as a student of the
business enough to look at well. And by the way,
Jim Crockett was a promoter, but he was I mean
he d Steve was the book. Yeah, I mean, Dusty
was the primary creative influence. And so that's kind of

(01:24:32):
difficult to say that Crockett was a great influence on
anybody in any not compared to Bill Watson vinsick Mann.
But yeah, I mean, but you know, I think there's
things about Bill Watts's promoting style that Triple A should
like to go back to her or Ord Myers. But yeah,
I don't know. Yeah, I think Vincent Man is the
most influential, But in terms of matching up philosophically the most,

(01:24:53):
I think you might end up with a different answer
or a collage of answers. Steve h said, can we
all can say that Sting's in career, in ring career
might be done? So why not make Sting the general
manager of Ron, have him feud with authority overpower?

Speaker 8 (01:25:10):
No no, just no, no, no more this general manager
of people fighting for power crap. I just don't need it.
I don't care how good he became in talking in
t and A. I don't need it. I don't need
Sting to be the face of WWE in twenty fifteen,
and Egan so well, he wouldn't be, But yes he
would because he'd be feuding with Triple Ah and Stephanie,
so he'd be all over television at all times.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
No. Yeah, And besides the fact, Sting isn't good on
the microphone, So why would you give him a job
which requires him to talk about things that he doesn't
have a passion talking about. Yeah, I just I like Yeah. No,
authority figures Sting's not good at talking, and having people

(01:25:53):
argue overpower doesn't work. Impacts ratings went out after Jeff,
Jarrett and Dixie stopped arguing about power and they got
back to promoting wrestlers. This is not a job a
job agency for fifty year old wrestlers. It's not our
job to find a place for Stings. Sting's value is
going to come from if he's healthy enough to work
as a tag team partner, special attraction or ringside enforcer

(01:26:17):
and or accepting a Hall of Fame induction. You know
that that's that's pretty much the beginning and end of
of where where I think Sting's value is at this point.
And I boy, I hope that that WWE agrees with
agrees with us there, Jason, because it Yeah, we just
don't need a GM with any bigger of a role

(01:26:38):
than what say William Regal has an NXT Uh, Patrick La.

Speaker 8 (01:26:45):
Did I lose you again?

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
You must have you fit?

Speaker 8 (01:26:49):
I heard a little bit there. Let's see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
Okay, let me pause. Can you hear me now?

Speaker 8 (01:26:55):
It's it's pretty Uh, there's a lot of static, but
I do I can hear you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
Okay. Patrick Al says, isn't it fair to say that
the ratings trend isn't just an overnight thing. Most of
the year it's been terrible. They got to reprieve after
WrestleMania turned out better than most thought it would be.
But I see fan dissatisfaction happening for a long time
and it's finally coming to the surface. That's Patrick of
King's Mountain, North Carolina. Yeah, Jason, this is not something

(01:27:21):
where you just go, wow, what happened to the last
two months or the last month. This has been a
trend over time, and part of it is just the
three hour, ten minute fatigue factor, and part of it
is that they don't have c Umpunk, they don't have
Daniel Bryan, they haven't replaced them. Part of it is
they're featuring Big Sho Caine and the Dudleys, which is
any one of them might be a nice novelty if

(01:27:41):
they were portrayed well, but they're eating up a lot
of TV time. There's just a lot, you know. And
part of it is promoting the brand over the wrestling
and the titles. Part of it is botching the Divas
Revolution so horribly. Part of it is not being a
cool product and having the JBL Byron Saxton, Jerry Lawler
types out there with out anything to counterbalance it. Part

(01:28:02):
of it is Stephanie McMahon promoting charities in a way
that completely contradicts what the ww the image of the
WWWE brand as a pro wrestling company should be, which
is a group of outlaws that are fighting to win
prizes and championships and beat each other up over grudges.
I mean, there's just so many things that they're doing
wrong that they're all fixable. You know. You don't just

(01:28:26):
wait around for the next big star. You can take
action and find them and take more chances on guys
who are unproven and not undercut the rising stars. But yeah,
this has been going on a long time, and this
is a lot of bad philosophy, bad decisions coming home
to roost.

Speaker 8 (01:28:43):
It absolutely is. And I think they've been propped up
by a strong WrestleMania and a strong Summer Slam this year.
They've done a good job with their big events. I
think NXT has generated more interest in the overall brand.
I'm sure there's some that choose NXT over WWE, but
I think it's very minimal, and so I think that
hope of seeing these guys and women come up from

(01:29:05):
a developmental project they like has actually helped them to
some level too. But it is just as long term
problems that you and I and others have talked about
over the years. I mean, it's that they're not addressing
the issues here. They just keep moving forward as if
there's no nothing to fix.

Speaker 1 (01:29:25):
Final email that I've got marked on the after show
here is from David VIP member he goes. Wwwe's video
package on the history of brock Lesnar against Big Show
was great to preview their upcoming MSG match. However, it
also share shines a glaring light on the fact that
they only reflect on history when it's convenient. Sure, Lesner
and Show had a few in two thousand and two
over the WWE title, but so did Lesnar an Undertaker.

(01:29:45):
They have not referenced the latter at all in their
current rivalry. Why don't mention of Lesner and Show from
a far more recent time than World Rumble twenty fourteen
than when Brock absolutely a preliterated big show with a
steel chair. You would think you would want revenge from
that instead of a thirteen years go issue.

Speaker 8 (01:30:01):
Byron remembers that I don't know way do I mean
any real thoughts here.

Speaker 1 (01:30:08):
I just think that they should be allowed to pick
out history when it serves them and not draw attention
to it when it doesn't. I know people are irritated
by not acknowledging more of the history between Lesnar and Undertaker.
I think circumstantially they wanted Lesner Undertaker to feel like
a dream match that almost hadn't happened before. They just

(01:30:29):
didn't feel that it would help to introduce that part
of history. From a consistent narrative credibility standpoint, you want
your announcers to not seem like they're withholding information, and
I think as a rule you should just follow that
one hundred percent of the time, that you should always
just talk about history and acknowledge it. That would be
my first choice. I don't think there's a big drop
off in terms of a price that they pay for

(01:30:51):
being strategically selective, but yeah, I mean enough people bring
it up, Jason. I think people are kind of irritated
by the fact that they're willing to talk about certain
aspects of Brocks history with Big Show and then not
other aspects of Brocks history with Undertaker. And when people
are irked by that, they aren't is into the brand.
And I don't think throwing a bunch of charity videos

(01:31:11):
at people makes up for the fact that they feel
a little betrayed by the brand that they've invested in,
studied and know so well, and they feel like the
machine is ignoring it at for political reasons. And I
think people just want history acknowledged. I mean, it can't
imagine a sports team because the management had a falling
out with a quarterback who then left for free agency

(01:31:34):
and went to another team, would have their announcers not
acknowledge that quarterback's history their history of success or big games.
You know, you don't ignore history for that reason. I
think fans would resent that and feel that they were
being taken for a ride and manipulated. So I mean,
my leaning is acknowledged history and allow announcers to do
so freely. I'm just not in the camp of being

(01:31:54):
all that bothered. Given what a big deal they tried
to make Taker Lesner out to be and how infrequently
Lesner wrestled. I didn't think it was super important for
them to talk about a match that happened so long
ago that wasn't particularly relevant to the few today. We're
about to go to a commercial break. Why listened to
commercial breaks? When you can go vip and experience our

(01:32:14):
shows with the ads and plugs removed. Pw torch dot
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(01:32:35):
streamlined ad and plug free listening experience with a VIP
or Patreon membership.

Speaker 8 (01:32:42):
Yeah, I really do. I think they want people to
feel like this is the third match that these two
are going to have, you know, and there's longtime fans
no otherwise, and it's not even the first Helena Seale
match they've had. I doubt that will come up. I
think this is what happens in the now is what
they want to focus on. I maybe Paul Hayman will

(01:33:02):
sneak something in their weight. I mean, you know, he
writes his own promos, but I don't even know if
he'd be that bold if he knows that. Yeah, that's
kind of frowned upon to bring up taker Lesnard from
you know, prior to this year.

Speaker 1 (01:33:14):
Right, Yeah, I agree? Anything else before I wrap up, Jason, I.

Speaker 8 (01:33:19):
Just I want to go back to Kevin Owens for
just a second, you know, a way to me, it's
really funny that they have these issues with his weight.
If only they had a world class training facility, they
could have kept him at and had him working out
on a daily basis, and before they called him up,
if this was going to be a concern.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, It's like it's
like going on an online profile and finding somebody you
want to date and they represent themselves really accurately to you,
and then on the first date you're like, I wish
you would gotten a nose job before our first date.
You know, like, like, no, just don't date them if
you're going to be an asshole about it, you know,
I mean, you knew what you were getting with Kevin Owens.

(01:33:59):
Now embrace what he is and shine a spotlight on
a strengths and don't draw attention to what you perceive
as a weakness, especially if it's something that you perceive
as a weakness that nobody else in the world gives
a crap about exactly.

Speaker 8 (01:34:11):
And the other thing I want to touch on is
that I'm not going to be that guy that says
you owe it to TNAT order a Bound for Glory
or anything like that. But I do think it's a
pretty good lineup this week. You know, it's their biggest
show of the year, whatever that means at this point
for T and A. But I'm more I wouldn't recommend
ordering it for nostalgia's sake, unless you're just that person
who looks at it as their Wrestlemanian orders every year. Okay,

(01:34:33):
might be the last one who knows go ahead, but
it's more important. I think it looks like a pretty
good lineup. I'm intrigued by this and I want to
see how Galloway and Easy three work together. I want
to see what Gail Kim an awesome KNG can do
after all these years. And so if you are someone
who's just been you know, just ignoring TNA for the
most part, you might want to take a look at

(01:34:53):
the lineup. It might be something that grabs you.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
I think take a look at Impact too. I mean,
I think it's a more enjoyable product, especially my Jeff
Jarrett and the convoluted promotion versus promotion thing with Dixie
Carter and all that. I thought last Wenday show was
a reprieve from a lot of the frustrations that I
have watching Ron SmackDown as is NXT. Of course, every
week it's one hour, it's it's it's you know, that's

(01:35:15):
a gimme. But Impact is better, and I think Drew,
you know, besides, I mentioned James Storm being really somebody
who impressed me on Wednesday and generally always does. Drew
McIntyre too, Drew Galloway too. I think Drew somebody could
walk right down to raw and if they portrayed him
as a top guy in a good acquisition, he could
go right into the mix and be somebody that people
would be intrigued to see against other top guys on

(01:35:37):
that roster right now. And you know Drew McIntyre when
he looks when he cuts those earnest pro wrestling. I
love pro wrestling. I love what we do promos. It
can be a little sappy, but I think he walks
that line without crossing it most of the time. And
I believe him. I don't know that he believes that
off camera or not. You know, like as a viewer,
it doesn't matter. I'm not thinking that hard. He gives

(01:35:59):
me a story to believe in, and I believe that
he is absolutely passionate about being a pro wrestler and
about going out there and being as good as he
can be and winning championships and representing something he loves,
which is pro wrestling with honor and an effort and
all the things that are on you know, blazoned on.
John Cena had some T shirts Drew McIntyre believably conveys

(01:36:21):
that also, and I think he could flip a switch
and be a really effective heel also. But Drew somebody
who I think carries himself kind of like Kevin Owens
as a leader, as somebody who when he speaks you
want to listen. Dean Ambrose used to have that. Now
he's kind of a zany comedy guy. Oh that's maybe
overstating it, but he's gotten that direction compared to where
he was in the Shield. When he was a guy

(01:36:41):
when he talked, you listened, And now it's like, oh,
I'm going to watch him because he might, you know,
pull out silly string or you know whatever. It's not
quite as bad as it was, but I always have
that in my mind. Now when he broke off as
a singles guy, I lost that respect for him as
having that street edge to him. But back in the
Shield days, he had that kind of swagger where you
better pay attention to what he's saying and doing. I
think Drew has that too, and he's someone someone who

(01:37:02):
I am also intrigued to see how he does in
that main event.

Speaker 8 (01:37:05):
Yeah, I think it that's a potentially be a very
good man event. If P and A doesn't overbook it
and they do have a special referee. It hasn't been
announced yet. I think most people can figure it out,
but I won't give a spoiler here. That always worries me.
It it's well TNA in general and main events tend
to worry me. They can't help themselves, and Lord knows
that creative team Weight has had a lot of time

(01:37:26):
to sit around and think about this show. Hopefully they
just let the wrestlers go out there and do their thing,
and if they do, I think it could be a
good night.

Speaker 1 (01:37:33):
Excellent Jason, thank you so much. Good show. A lot
to talk about this week. I wish it was great
news instead of complaining, but I think it was, uh, well,
we got some we got We gave some solutions and
constructive criticism and some positive thoughts at the end, also
on some other things going on out there. There's if
you're progressing fan, there's so many alternatives to RAW that

(01:37:53):
you know, for as long as they are around and available,
you know, try them. There is no reason to watch
a show you don't like. Honestly, if you're a fan
of the business and you're listening to the VP after show,
you're in this for more than just enjoying a product.
A lot of those people are jumping ship. You're in
this because you're not to sound like Drew McIntyre here,
Drew galloway, but you're invested in the industry and you
want to see where it goes and follow it along

(01:38:14):
and event about the things that you disagree with. And
right now, wwe might be hitting a low point where
maybe some positive changes happen. Maybe maybe that's around the corner.
But in the meantime, I mean, you know New Japan
on Access and Impact, well it lasts and NXT as
what did Triple H call it? The a counter brand.
It's not an alternate, it's a counter And I think

(01:38:36):
that's a deliberate choice of words on his part. It's
it's an all, it's a different version. It's a they
run counter to some of the things that you don't
like about the main brand, I think is what he's
trying to imply slyly when he does that. But a
lot of good stuff is out there in ROH two
SO and New Japan Specials and all that. I mean,
it's just yeah, there's enough out there to occupy yourself

(01:38:56):
with good content and hopefully WWE will will shift more
in a positive direction that leads to more people watching,
not fewer every week. But wow, that two point three
three quite quite the news to react to mid show, Jason.

Speaker 8 (01:39:08):
No kidding, it is your real quick with your prediction
for next week? Does does the rating go up or down?

Speaker 1 (01:39:15):
What's Moday night football game?

Speaker 8 (01:39:17):
I you know, I don't know, but I can. I
can take a quick look here.

Speaker 1 (01:39:19):
Yeah, take a quick look, because I mean that I
think we're at a point where that does influence the
rating if it's if it's not a Marquee matchup, I
think RAW has a chance to go up because it'll
be after the brock Lesner match. But I think up
now means you know, four point two point four to five.
And I also think because I don't think this show
did anything to get people excited about the product or

(01:39:42):
up upcoming talent or a crescendo of a storyline, I
think that there's a legitimate chance, if it's a Marquee
game that the rating stays the same or goes down,
even though it's a twenty year low point. Jason, what
are we looking at?

Speaker 8 (01:39:55):
You know? I wish my computer was functioning. It will
here in a second. Now, now I've got a WiFi,
wasn't cooperating very well. Let's see T and A gets lucky.
They get what would have been an interesting game with
the Saints and Cowboys now without probably both of their
starting quarterbacks on Sunday night. Monday is the Allions and
the Seahawks. So not major markets, but still a lot

(01:40:18):
of fantasy interest there.

Speaker 1 (01:40:20):
Yeah, yep, yeah, I think that's.

Speaker 8 (01:40:21):
A It's not as I'll say that, it's not as
attractive as Packers chiefs say, you know, with Aaron Rodgers
just flinging the ball all over the place, and if
you can stuffer through the broadcast team somehow making John
Madden's fawning over Brett Farbes seem came, it's pretty attract
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm a Viking fan,
but that guy is phenomenal. But you thought he was

(01:40:43):
walking on water last night. It's just was non stop
and I was speeding through the game and I was
becoming repulsed by it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
Wow. Wow, all right, Yeah, Detroit Seattle doesn't doesn't make
me see it as a huge threat, even though Seattle,
you know, good team in recent years, obviously. So yeah,
I think my prediction is two point three nine. I'm
going to go precise, Jason yours.

Speaker 8 (01:41:07):
What was it this week? Two point two point three three?
I'll give them a I'll say they go up to
a two point four to three. I think that the
game it's not as appealing as the one this that
we just had last night. Plus, I do think that
they're going to hit the panic button a little bit
and maybe actually advertise something in advance, even though they
should have been doing that last night. I had someone

(01:41:29):
who has some connections in the industry tell me beforehand
that as we were doing the show early in the
show that as of a couple hours before we started
they didn't even have a script for SmackDown yet. So
maybe that will change. Wait, maybe they'll finally Vince McMahon
will finally figure out that this on the fly thing
that he's doing isn't working.

Speaker 1 (01:41:45):
The numbers are there, and yeah, the numbers are there
as evidence. I don't even know what more to say. Yeah,
I mean, we're debating four one hundreds of a rating
point or not debating, but we're about four one hundreds
of a rating point apart. Either way. I don't think
it changes the dialogue next week. If it's in that
two point four area. If it's two point two something,
there's a landslide of loss of interest that needs to

(01:42:07):
be addressed urgently. I mean it already is, but I
mean it's just accelerate, you know, it becomes exponentially more
urgent next week. All right, thank you everybody for your
support of the membership, and until next week, I'll be
out to Jason Powell Wadekeller signhow invite you to email

(01:42:30):
the show with feedback or questions or comments. That email
address is Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. That's
Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Also welcome
your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter
at pw torch and follow me at the Wade Keller
That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 8 (01:42:52):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, you're the latest news and analysis for me
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(01:43:14):
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Speaker 1 (01:43:23):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
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Go vi I p

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Dateline NBC

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INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Bob Backlund on whether he regrets not turning heel after losing title, Vince Sr.'s Backlund-Graham decision

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark