INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Bob Backlund autobiography co-author Robert Miller with insights on working with former WWF Champion on book

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic,
where Wade Keller interviews one of Pro Wrestling's newsmakers.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Ten years ago. On the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling podcast,
Bruce Mitchell joined me to interview the author of Bob
Backland's autobiography or the co author with Bob who It's
a fassing discussion. You talked about going from a fan
of Backland to a friend of Bob Backland as he
wrote the Definitive Bob Beckland Chronicle. I highly recommend this
book if you want to learn about nineteen seventies WWF,

(01:43):
WWWF and the territory system. And you know it is
a territory from the seventies that is now essentially evolved
into what today's WWE is. So you learn a lot
about the roots of Vince McMann senior, Vincent mamann Junior,
and now Paula Beck in their booking approach in the
form MELA that well, it has changed and altered with
the times and the people running, it still has that

(02:04):
lineage going back to that era and so really fascinating
insight into a quirky and fascinating person and Bob Backland two.
This originally live streamed on October fifteenth, twenty fifteen, and
while we had an interview with Bob himself earlier that
we just recently featured earlier this month. That interview was
cut short due to technical issues. We bring Bob Backland

(02:26):
back for nearly an hour and a half coming up
in an upcoming Interview Classic, so be sure to be
on the lookout for that. We'll be publishing that soon also.
All right, here we go with today's Weight Keller Prosing
Podcast in your Classic for Saturday, October twenty fifth, twenty
twenty five Radio. Welcome to dp W Torch Live Past.

(02:49):
I am Wade Keller, editor and publisher of Pro Wrestling
Torch weekly newsletter and also the people who Torch dot
com website since nineteen ninety nine and host of this
the PW Towards Last cast I host on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
Tuesdays I hosted with Jason Powell from Pro Wrestling dot
Net when we take your phone calls and talk about

(03:12):
Rob the night before usually and other happenings and professional wrestling.
And on Thursdays it is Interview Thursday. And I've had
the honor of interviewing a lot of accomplished big names
in the history of this industry over the last five
plus years I've been doing this show, and one of
the biggest in one of my favorite guests that we've

(03:34):
been able to secure for the show we had on
last week, and that was Bob Beckland, author of a
new autobiography, a long autobiography with tons of great details
on his career and a look behind the scenes at
the late seventies early eighties wwwf Era leading up to
vinsick Man Junior taking over a fascinating, fascinating, excellent book.

(03:59):
Last week when he was on, we had some phone problems,
which can happen. He was on the road at an
autograph signing and we had some phone connection problems, so
we had to cut the interview short after about thirty minutes.
But we are pleased to have him back on the
program today. And also we will be joined soon by
Bruce Mitchell, twenty five years pro wrestling Torch columnist, and

(04:22):
we are I'm excited to have him back on the
program too, because he knows Bob's career very very well.
In fact, let me just bring Bruce into the conversation
right now. Bruce, welcome back to the live cast.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
Good to be here, Good to.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Have you on the program.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
Bruce.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Last week when we had Bob on the program, you
had read most of the book. I'd read most of
the book. We've had it, both of us have had
a chance to read the rest of the book. Any
thoughts on the book in terms of what you learned
that you didn't know about Bob Backland or the territories
that he wrestled in, obviously predominantly Wwe thought that.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Rob Miller, is co author, who was clearly a big
fan and very noledgable about Bob Backland's career, did a
very thorough job of keeping the book focused on the
important parts of Backland's career, which obviously the six years
he spent five years and ten months as w WF
champion headlining all the big arenas you know around the world,

(05:23):
particularly in the Northeast and particularly Madison Square Garden. And
so because of that, I mean, I think that he
really activated Bob's memory, really put things in perspective and
put everything into context. So that was interesting. And then
just Backland's thun usual in that he put his hands
in the career. He put his career in the hands

(05:45):
of one of the most powerful promoters in professional wrestling,
Vincent J. McMahon, and really, you know, really was comfortable
doing that. And really you know, benefited from that for
those you know, for the ark of his careers. So
it was very interesting and I just thought, as close
a look someone who worked with this man we know

(06:06):
today his father, really close and then you know the
transition and the things that people go through. Just interested,
but very even handed and just a really interesting book
with a lot of details about the major figures of
professional wrestling during that time.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
Actually, the reason I had to I didn't wasn't able
to answer you was I was just talking to Bob
on the phone and uh, and I had you on
had the show on Newtle. I was getting in touch
with him, and he's had to delay his appearance till
next week. Bruce, he.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Ll be fine.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Oh no, no, I know it will be. He's gonna
be great. He uh and I and I understand the circumstances.
He's then, so there's uh, no trouble at all. But
I don't want to bore people with the details. So
we have one week to announce it. Bob will be here.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
I'm here for that. I'm here for that, So you
don't need to bore them with the details. I'll bore
them separately.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
Okay, very good. So now this is my be plan.
And I didn't tell you about this, but there was
a chance, and I will say that Bob had. Bob's
been doing a ton of stuff with his book, and
he's really excited about it. I talked to him for
quite a while yesterday. He's been on autograph sessions and
I love the story he told me. He said that
he's he was at some autograph sessions and I think
he said at two different autograph sessions. Since last Thursday, Bruce,

(07:21):
when he was on with us, he's had people come
up to him and tell him, I'm so excited for
you to be on the live cast again. The interview
was frustrating that you didn't get to talk at length
with those guys. I'm really looking forward to hearing you
talk about your book. And he's just absolutely genuinely excited.
He said just talking to me about being on the
show again was giving him goosebumps and raising the hair

(07:42):
on his arms. So he really really wants to do this,
and he wants to do it right. And basically he's
in a circumstance now where an appearance ran long and
he just can't He doesn't want to do it with
bad connection and distractions, and I totally respect that. So
and I have.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
To say that I have that same feeling on the
weeks where you coast the Brucemiths and when you co
host the Bruce Mitchell Audio shows. All right, well those
weeks when those weekends come on, Hold on.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Hold on, Bob's calling back. Let me tell tell people
the story for a minute, and I'll be right back.

Speaker 3 (08:10):
Tell people's story from me. I don't know what way
he's referring to, except for well, I mean, you know,
Bob Backland has goosebumps wanting to talk to way call
and of course on the weekends that he co hosts
the Bruce Mitchell Audio Show, I have those same goosebumps.
I'm sure that Todd Martin every week on Wednesdays has those,
has those This book is really worth a read. I mean,

(08:33):
as I said, uh, Rob Miller, who's a lawyer, did
a very good job of just going through bit by
bit with Backland, and Backland has a great memory for
for the feuds, for the for who was successful who
was not. And it's you know, the stories about Stan

(08:53):
Hansen coming to Massive Square Garden and basically bulling his
way instead of a two two series matches and the
deal was in that day, the best heels, the guys
that drew the most money against Bob I'm defending against
the w w F champion in Massis Square Garden might
get three shows in a row to headline before they

(09:16):
were beaten in a decisive match and the good and
the good guy won one on Backlands. Very interesting talking
about Vincent Jay McMahon wanting to give hope to that.
That was the story. He wanted to give hope the
good guy, the the the all American boy, the underdog
would persevere and if he could persevere, so could the

(09:37):
wrestling fans. And that was kind of the theme of
what he wanted to do. But the idea was you
got paid if you get you know, if you do
three houses in Massis Square Garden, that's three very good
paydays for a touring cop, bad guy professional wrestler. And
one of the better stories is of Stan Hansen, who
had come in early in his career, had had a

(10:00):
famous match in the Garden against Bruno San Martino and
injured him with a with a poorly done power slam
and broken his neck and you know, millimeter away from paralyzing,
you know, the meal ticket for the entire company Brunos
San Martino and that he had then he had then
been matched up in Chase Stadium against him, and he
came back loaded for Bear a much better performer by

(10:23):
the time he got back to back on and had
his you know, was strong ensconsin in Japan, New Japan
and all Japan Pro Wrestling. So go ahead, way.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Okay, very good.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Yeah, you wanted to finish a story or seatback.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Oh no, he's not back, but Uh, Bob is a
savvy marketer, Bruce, and he is not going to lose
an opportunity to have a show dedicated to a discussion
about his book. And with my full endorsement as plan
B we're going to bring on to the show.

Speaker 3 (10:56):
Who do you think, I would say? Rob Miller?

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yes, good guest, We're gonna bring Rob Miller out of
the program. He's gonna call him momentarily. He's the author
of the book who wrote it, or the co author
who wrote it with Bob and Uh. In fact, it's
something I talked to Bob about that i'd either bringing
them on together separately. I thought talking to him about
the writing of this book, and uh, and and getting
his perspective on working with Bob on the book would

(11:20):
be really interesting. And I know that Rob really wanted
to be on the show, so Uh, Bruce, He's planning
to call momentarily and I'm very excited about that. And
and keep listening, listeners, because this is actually a really
cool story about how this book came about. And uh,
and I'm very much looking forward to the the details
on the process of writing the book and Rob talking
to so many of the big names that Backland worked

(11:43):
with over the years, and and and that process. I
think interviewing a book author who helps write an autobiography
of this scope and quality is uh is a really
cool opportunity.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, clearly this is Miller
is really knows Backland's career, and I think he did
the research. I'm very much under depression. We certainly ask
him that he rekindled Backland's memory by showing him a
lot of the major matches that he was in in
these big arenas and talking to him about that. So,

(12:15):
I mean that was that was really good. That was interesting.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
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(12:42):
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One thing that is the part of the book that
one of the parts of the book that I really like.
And there's things that I enjoy about the book that
I didn't live through in real time that I you know,
read about in retrospect from other perspectives a little bit,

(13:02):
and then there's so many more details in this But
one of the parts of the book that I liked
was near the end when he talked about Pro Wrestling
USA and this kind of brief comeback he made after
he talked about after Hulk Hogan replaced him, and he
talked about the coming up with the finish of the
match for losing the title, not knowing being told he's
going to get a rematch and then having that changed

(13:24):
on him, And I thought, why let me talk about
this for a second. First, the the the way that
Vince McMahon Junior as he was called and known Vincent
who runs WWW today. The way that he went about
trying to get Bob to agree to turn heel to
be the turncoate who was jealous of this new sensation
Hulk Hogan. I was fascinating to get, you know, Bob's

(13:47):
perspective on that and how Bob, you know, just even
though they started matching him against baby faces at at
arenas and try to get him to embrace the idea
of going heal that Bob just would not do that.
And I think it, you know, he says, you know,
today is a different era, and you know, maybe wrestlers
wouldn't be worried about it today, but it's he didn't
want to let his daughter down, his young daughter down,

(14:08):
and other kids that he was doing charity work with.
He did not want to turn against everything he stood for.
Reminded me a bit of a bit of Brett Hart
in the nineties. And it also is the dilemma that
WWB faces with John Cena right now, in that I
think people really you know that John might say that
there'd be just too many people genuinely let down if
he made it seem like everything that he had preached

(14:31):
was phony or arbitrary and just to make money.

Speaker 3 (14:35):
Well pay very much worth pointing out when back When
talks about sponsoring amateur wrestling tournaments in the Northeast, all
throughout the Northeast, Connecticut and New York and all that
he's there, that's very true. And so when you think
about someone who's going in and making speeches to kids
and getting a lot, you know, and getting a lot

(14:56):
back from that, getting you know, satisfaction and seeing these
kids grow and working through amateur wrestling, and you know
that was something that was done in your area with
ver Gania. But Backlan really pushed all that. And so
then to turn like that, I mean, in this era
of wrestling is and even then, I mean I remember
reacting as a fan reading about it in Sports Illustrated

(15:17):
and the famous whole code and commer you think, well,
wrestler's in the end are actors, and they can find
different ways, different ways to play roles, then that's the job.
But I do understand Backlan had you know, Backlan had
a lot of kids that really, I mean, he was
very much a you know, four square, honest, jack armstrong,

(15:39):
all American boy character, and he believed in those values
and so it was gonna be very tough for him
to do. And then I wonder, I mean, the Bob
you know, the mister Backlan character was a different time,
in a different era, and there was a lot of
comedy to it. But a serious heel character. I don't
know that he was that he had that he had

(16:02):
the not the ability, but the pieces that would make
a great heal. I don't think he did. I think
he was very much you know, strong and big and skilled,
and it would have been it would have been a
tough sell. I think.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, I agree, I agree, And you know, I think
you know, some politicians when they change parties, they say
I didn't change the party, did I think Bob Becklan
when he came back in the early nineties. His argument
then was he came back as a babyface and the
fans weren't embracing him. That the world that changed, and
he told a funny story about Rush Limba and listening
to Rush chew out a woman for complaining about her

(16:41):
life when she just you know, in Russia's perspective, just
one of the things handed to her and was having
a pity parter party and playing up being a victim.
And Bob just said, you know, that was kind of
an inspiration for him to go, wait a second, I
can actually be true to myself. But since I'm not
getting over as a babyface on this at the beginning
of this run, to lecture the fans in the context

(17:04):
of how wrestling I had changed in the eight years
since he had been gone, and be true to himself
in a sense, in a sense, play an amped up
version of course of what he really believed in and
try to make that work. And I thought that was
an interesting uh uh an interesting and I think sensible
justification for going heel eight years later when he didn't
want to eight years before, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
And I also say, you know, I agree. And then
I also think something, while we had a decent, you know,
enough of a decent connection last week with him, you know,
how did he feel about it personally? Did he feel
like it was a lost opportunity to make to further
his wrestling career and to stay on top of the
business that now is a heel or did he look
back and go I did the right thing. I cemented

(17:50):
my family's future with the run that I had, and
I'm proud of myself for sticking to my values. And
he I mean you could tell he didn't have any regrets.
He was proud of himself. And I think at the end,
that's something that's worth you know, that's worth saying. I mean,
maybe you know he I think he would have had,
you know, as the jealous guy to really cement you know,

(18:11):
hul Cogan taken a leg drop two or three times
from him, you know, on a on a household tour.
I mean, he would have been one of the revolving
monsters that, you know, one of the revolving dragons that
hul Comania slayed. But you know, the book doesn't go
into detail, but it's very clear he says it a
couple of times he didn't like what he saw with
hul Cogan behind the scenes. And that's not hard to

(18:33):
with what we know these days about Hogan. All the
things will come out in the last twenty years about
his drug use, his record, recreational drug use, how his
family fell apart, and a lot of things that happened
with him that backland being backland wouldn't have appreciated that,
and that was part of it too. And he had
the he must have felt he had the financial independence

(18:56):
to make those kind of decisions, and he should have
after six years, have had line, I mean in the
biggest territory.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
When I read about you know, he talked about what
he did afterwards. And this was after the Pro Wrestling
USA or maybe in the mid you know, before and
after two, but he had spent some time in the
the attempt by the a w A and the nw
A promoters to get together and combat Vince McMahon and
they felt like, if we combine all our resources with
the talent we have left, maybe we can combat uh,
Vince mc mannon and the New York market. And it

(19:25):
just didn't work. And Bob explained it well and in
a way that Jerry Jarrett on this very show explained it,
you know, which is there wasn't a leader. It was
a bunch of big egos sitting in one room, and
Jerry admitted he's one of them. You know, these guys
were used to run on the ship, doing things their way,
and all having to sit in a room and try
to somehow cohesively come up with a game plan where
they were protecting their turf but also doing what was

(19:47):
best for the Pro Wrestling USA promotion. I remember watching that,
uh those a WA shows when you know, they excitedly
announced that there's this new promotion and we're bringing in
all this new talent and it was a fascinating time.
But even watching it on TV while also being exposed
at the WWF at that time through syndication, you know,

(20:09):
you could just tell who was going to prevail in
that and it team like Bob did too.

Speaker 5 (20:18):
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Speaker 3 (21:24):
Seem excuse me ahead, go ahead. It seemed Pro Wrestling
USA to me when I remember watching it then, and
I actually ended up at a one of their television
tapings Unknowingly, I didn't know that was what was going
to happen, but it it definitely was, and it just
seems still born to me, and and back when, in particular,

(21:45):
back when in the a w A, if you'd watch him,
and then back when in Pro Wrestling USA, he may
have been, you know, a guide that was meant to
be the All American Boy WWF champion once for whatever reason,
that time was up. There really wasn't a place. There
really wasn't a place for the same type of character.

(22:07):
He couldn't be the NWA champion, he couldn't be the
a w A champion, and he was so used to
being Bob back when w w F champion that there
he kind of stood out as a fish out of
water at that time, which is really interesting because he
was one of the top stars you know, you know,
without a doubt before that, or you know, a real draw,
you know, a real someone that people wanted to see

(22:28):
in the ring and carried a lot of prestige and weight,
and it just I tried to think of what analogy
you could bring to it, but it's that actor finds
the perfect role and you know, has that great run.
I don't know Mark Campbell was Star Wars or something,
you know where a great run.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
I was gonna say, like James Garner was perfect for
television and perfect for that character, but had trouble, even
though he was heralded in the seventies whe the Rockford Files,
had trouble finding that that role afterwards, and there was
something about him that didn't translate to movies. There's some
some people just.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
That's not what the wait I'm going to say this,
that's not true, he had a very before he was
in The Rocker Files. He had a very successful movie. Yeah,
but he had a for like twenty years, very successful
mainstream movie career, and particularly starring with Doris Day. I mean,
he the American Americanization of Emily is considered one of
the best movies of his time. He wasn't he wasn't

(23:25):
a he wasn't at the very top tier. But he
could play a lot of different roles. And then he
was in Victor Victoria, which either got he got an
Oscar nomination for it, I believe. But he very much
had some movies where.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
After The rock Files, I don't want to do James
Garner for three minutes.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
I mean just saying. I mean, I'm a fan of
that guy, so I don't know, I mean, that's just
that's not acting.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Okay, ho hold on, I'm a huge I know, but
I'm a huge fan of too. But what I'm saying is,
and everything I've ever read about The Rockford Files was
that afterwards, that character that he played that was so
perfect for television just wasn't able to that. There was
something about that that afterwards, he wasn't able to translate
that to movies. He was the perfect TV character in
that context at that point in his life and time. Culturally,

(24:13):
there wasn't a place for him to be that to
translate and fit in movies.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
I don't know put to put it in a thumbnail sketch.
I highly recommend watching and reading about a movie called
Victor Victoria. Okay, I couldn't you know? And that that's
just like I said, thumbnail.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, no, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
I like it.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
We got Rob Miller and Holts, so let's uh, let's
go ahead, and uh, let's go ahead now and welcome
Rob Miller, the author of Beckland, the autobiography Into or
the co author with Bob of course, into the conversation. Rob,
thank you so much for joining us. Uh you had
been on my mind and uh I definitely was wash
hoping to talk to at some point, and I appreciate

(24:56):
on short notice here you being able to join us.

Speaker 4 (24:58):
No problem, guys, can you hear me?

Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay, yeah, yeah, you sound great.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
Okay, good. I just poured myself a cup of coffee.
I've been enjoying your your callicqueed back and forth.

Speaker 6 (25:07):
There.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
You should listen to the Weekly Bruce Mitchell Audio Show
that I host on for VP numbers because it's a
it's a small sample of a lot of our time
the last twelve years doing audio together, actually going back
to the radio show in the early nineties when we
used to do it, but that a lot.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
Sounds sounds a lot of fun. Bob and I just
finished about a three hour signing up here in New Hampshire,
and he's pretty wiped out. He's driving back to Connecticut now,
but I know I just got off the phone with
him and he's very anxious to join you next week.
And I think that that's the plan.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
It is, yes, and Okay, I talked to Bob yesterday,
and I know he was thrilled back at some autograph
stignings that people were coming up to him and who
had heard this, who had heard him on the show
last week, saying they were looking forward to him being
back on when we have a good phone connection and
next week will be perfect. I knew. I knew Rob
today was going to be a little rough with the
schedule he talked about, but we thought we could swing it.
But it just it sounds like things went a little

(26:05):
longer than, uh than than Bob had hoped.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
Or Yeah, we had a we had an awesome We
had an awesome event up here. We had I don't
know fifty or sixty people in the room and uh
and Bob and I talked for a while and they
kept asking questions, and so we we blew right past
our time limit, and then we signed books for I
don't know an hour and a half or something after
after that. So it was a great event. It's just
fun to see him so energized and uh and full

(26:29):
of life again, you know. Uh. He it's like he's
been reborn, uh to to you know, to be able
to relive that era and have all these people coming
up to him and telling them stories about when they
were children and watching him and uh or taking their
children to watch him. It's it's just been really fun,
really fun. And obviously we know what Corky needs to

(26:50):
get him for Christmas. Clearly he needs an iPhone.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yes, yes, Bruce, I want to give you a chance
to ask the first question of of Rob. I certainly
have h a handful in my mind too.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
Well. I'm I'm one of those wrestling fans and wrestling
people that likes looking at the old Masion Square Garden
main events and shows, and of course Bob Backland is
all over that. And I got the impression of reading this,
reading this, that you really honed in on the opponents

(27:25):
for Bob and you you peak maybe maybe you show
did you show him some of the old main events?
Did you go through? How did how did all that work?
Because I was fascinated by that, and I remember a
lot of those matches. And I was also just kind
of happy to know that people I thought were great
opponents for Backland he seemed to really think so too,
by Don Morocco and Greg Valentine. But talk about talk

(27:47):
about the way that you got him, you know, the
meetings that you had, and how you pulled all that,
you know, really relevant fascinating information out of it.

Speaker 4 (27:56):
Sure, so it was it was a combination of things, uh,
you know, I I have over the past twenty five
years or so collected, you know, a variety of things,
old programs, match results, uh, you know, and and and
old video especially you know, back in the nineties, I

(28:19):
was a pretty avid I never obviously never sold anything
because that's a copyright violation, but but I was I
was happy to to find people who were trading things,
and uh, and would trade things back and forth and whatnot,
and and managed to cobble together this is long before
the WWE you know, had a network. Uh, cobbled together

(28:41):
a pretty complete collection of his matches from the Garden
and the Spectrum. You know, Spectrum was on PRISM, which
was the old Philadelphia sports network down there, and uh
and the Garden shows were either on the MSG network
or on us A. And so a lot of those
complete shows still exist and you know they they're they

(29:05):
were they were trading on vhs back in the nineties.
And uh. So I managed to pull together a pretty
complete collection just from my own desire to watch things
again and uh and you know, had no idea that
this would come out of it, but uh but it
proved to be a very helpful tool in sort of reconstructing,

(29:25):
you know, the itinerary of Bob's career through the w
w F or w w w F. Uh So, yeah,
we did watch some things together. I was particularly interested
in having him explain to me how matches got called
and uh and why why the the matches were called
the way they were. And it was fascinating to sit

(29:48):
with him and watch old video and have him point
out Okay, you hear what the crowd's doing. Do you
hear you hear the noise? Do you hear you hear
the volume increasing? Okay, so you know, so the heel
is building his heat and building his heat, and now
it's time for our comeback, and you know, and then
he would he would show, you know, in the next
move there would be a comeback, and then they'd go

(30:09):
and they'd build the babyfaces, you know, energy with the crowd,
and then at some point the heel would turn it
again and then they'd build the energy of the crowd
higher and higher and higher, and then you could just
tell from the from the volume of the crowd, you know,
how the match was doing. And then, you know, as

(30:29):
Bob has explained to me, you know, ad infinitum, you
want to send the people home at the point where
you don't feel like you can get them any higher.
And whether that's at the ten minute mark or the
thirty five minute mark, you know, that's when you send
them home. And so that was fascinating to be able
to do that with him, and then of course just
going through opponent by opponent and getting his thoughts on strengths, weaknesses,

(30:54):
what it was like to work with them, what they
were like as people, you know what Vince Senior thought
of them. You know how the programs developed, and in particular,
you know the story that we tell in the book
about how Jimmy Snooker's heat just exploded in a way
that no one expected and kind of ended up seriously

(31:15):
truncating Cowboy Bob Orton's run. He was the guy that
everybody thought was going to get the multiple match run
with Bob at the Garden because of who he was
and how you know, how well thought of he was
down in Florida with Eddie Graham as the former Florida champion.
But Snooka just exploded and basically just sucked all the

(31:35):
air out of the summer for everybody else.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
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Speaker 3 (32:13):
Yeah, I remember watching that. In fact, my background is
I'm from North Carolina, and so I was I became
a big wrestling fan. Was a big fan of Jimmy
Snooker with Buddy Rogers as the US champion in the
mid Atlantic territory. And then I moved to Dover, Delaware

(32:34):
right out of college, and so I kind of followed
Jimmy Snooker nineteen eighty two and I kind of followed
Jimmy Snooker to the Northeast. I watched him in Georgia
Champions of Wrestling and then to the Northeast, and I was,
you know, I was a big fan, but it was
it was a phenomenal thing to see him just explode
and then clearly, I mean I had no inside information,

(32:55):
but I thought something was wrong with him at the
same time that he was slower. There was something just
not quite clicking with him. And I've come to understand
all the issues since then. But yeah, I mean it
was a phenomen you know, it was a phenomenal thing
to see and I was really interested in because I
thought it was the beginning of the you know, looking
back on it, it was the beginning of the end of

(33:16):
Backland's run as w S champion at the top of
the promotion, and I thought in the book that he really,
he really was. He really handled it generously or you know,
with some equanimity about what was going on, I mean,
because it.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
Was and respecting the readers of the book. Yeah, you
know where where he didn't sugarcoat it, but he he
communicated what need to be And that's that's a balance
I'm sure that Rockets speak of as an author, you know,
you want to honor the reader with the truth and
tell them what what is happening without and I'm sure

(33:52):
Bob's nature as such without being too salacious. And I
thought that that balance was was really really accomplished in
that snow good discussion.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Well, thank you. Yeah, I you know, when my my
career by trade, I'm a trial lawyer, and so you know,
in dealing with these these meetings that I had with
Bob over the past five years, you know, a lot
of the time. You know, we we became very close
and and and are you know, very very good friends

(34:23):
now obviously, but I said to him at the outset, now,
you know, some of this is going to get a
little uncomfortable because you're going to give me an answer
and I'm not going to be satisfied with it, and
I'm going to want to I'm going to want to
dig deeper. And so this is going to feel like
a cross examination a lot of the time. And that's
what's going to make the book good, you know, because
you're going to tell me half the story, and I'm
going to make sure you tell me the rest of it,

(34:45):
at least as far as I can get, you know.
And you know, we didn't there were some things he
didn't remember and you couldn't go any further. And but
he was very generous with with what he was willing to,
you know, to to divulge, particularly about his family and
and his background, which was really heart wrenching. You know.
We really only got to the to the nub of

(35:07):
that in the last few meetings that we had, you know,
at the end of at the end of last fall,
when he finally said, you know, I'm going to tell
you about my father. And and it was really it
was almost like a therapy session that I remember, you
know that day just my eyes popping out of my
head and my fingers were just you know, couldn't move

(35:29):
fast enough across the keys, and he just kind of,
you know, came clean about how horrible his home life was.
And and when we finally got that out, then all
the pieces kind of started coming together about his shyness
and his you know, his his inability to cut a
confident promo and all of that stuff, and it all

(35:50):
stems back from, you know, his his childhood and his
sort of you know, pervasive feeling of shame and wanting
to hide, which is just so contrary to what you
think of a professional wrestler as being. You know, but
it was it was fascinating to get that. And and
when we got that, I think that really lent an

(36:12):
honesty to the book that was very different, you know,
George the animal Steel. Jim Myers uh just finished reading
the book and communicated to Bob, I don't think he'd
mind my telling you this, you know that that he
thought that the book was just this wonderful, like raw honest,

(36:33):
you know. Uh, disclosure of of his life and and
it just rang true in a way that you know,
other wrestling books don't. And that's that's really credit to
Bob for for being willing to be generous like that
with with us and with his you know, fans and
his readers to to really get that.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Was that something Rob that you uh pushed for or
did it sort of happen because you want that is
kind of a part of the foundation of the book
to get to know Bob better. Or did that kind
of happen organically because you two had such a comfort level.
Because Bob talked about that last week that had he
written this book twenty years ago when he first got
the idea to write a book about his time as
WWF champion, that this part about his family and his

(37:17):
father especially would not have been there twenty years ago.
How how did that end up coming out and ending
up a prominent part of the book.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
Yeah, I it wouldn't have been It wouldn't have been
there two years ago. Either. To answer your question, it
was a combination of my gently pushing because it was
clear to me there was more going on there than
he was letting on. But I also wanted to respect
that privacy because frankly, I didn't know what I was

(37:47):
gonna uncover, right, I mean, as a as a writer,
you're dealing with another person's life and emotion, and you
know some you know, you don't know what you're gonna
what you're gonna find, and you know, So it was
a combination of trust and organic development of that trust

(38:07):
over the five years that we worked together, coupled with
you know, some some subtle and careful but consistent prodding
to you know, to be honest about about what was
really happening.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
Rob. I saw a link in back when talking about
his relationship with his father and how rough that was,
and then what clearly was a very positive relationship he
had with this Jay McMahon, can you comment on that.
Is that something that you saw too.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yeah, Yeah, we talked a lot about that at the
signing tonight. You know, this was the first opportunity that
he and I have had to share a stage together.
You know, my my day job tends to get in
the way of my being out on the road with him,
So it was a real opportunity for us to sort of,
you know, bat the ball back and forth and play

(39:06):
off of each other. A little bit, and and we
we we talked about about Vince Senior a lot tonight,
and he definitely was looking for a father figure. Bob
was and and Vince Senior very clearly thought of Bob
as another son, you know, which may or may not have,

(39:29):
you know, produced some rivalry with Vince Junior that that
sort of remains to be seen. But you know, there
there there was very clearly a a relationship between Vince
Senior and Bob that that was a deep relationship of trust.

(39:50):
We talked tonight about you know, the handshake in the
men's room at the Philadelphia Arena in nineteen seventy seven,
where there was no contract. It was just, uh, just
a handshake and a and a look in the eye
and uh an agreement that you're going to be my
next champion, and I'm going to trust you to you know,
to to lead my promotion and and and in the

(40:14):
other direction, it was Bob trusting Vince Senior.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
You know, notwithstanding the fact that there was no contract
and there was no bond for the belt, you know
that that this was going to be a relationship that
would work, uh, and that that would be consistent with
Bob's expectation and values, and uh, it was, it was,
it was very much that way.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
I'll read an excerpt because I you know, I obviously
encourage people to to buy this book and read it
cover to cover. The Uh, the part is chilling about
his childhood, and I mean, there's different excerpts that I
could read to convey it, but very briefly, here's just
I think one paragraph that will let people know what
we're what we're more than alluding to here. I couldn't.

(41:00):
I couldn't ever have people over because I never knew
when my dad might come home in that violent condition
after heavy drinking. In all the years I was growing up,
I only had a person stay over one time, and
that night was so horrible he never wanted to come
back again. The next day, at school, he told everyone
what he had seen and heard at my house, which
made me want to crawl into the deepest hole and
be away from everyone making fun of me and my family.

(41:21):
After that, I was too embarrassed to have anyone over
and know one would come over anyway. One time, when
Norvel was seventeen or eighteen, my father was beating my
mother so severely that Norvil had to jump into the
fight to save her. So it's an example what we're
talking about, and that for Bob to be that forthright
about something that he had not been before, I think
does show the comfort level that he had with you,
Rob and wanting this book to paint a complete picture

(41:45):
of what made him who he was.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
Yeah, that little bit there came out in one of
the very last sit downs that we had last saw.
I remember it well because it was, as he said,
it was chilling.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (42:01):
You know, to get that that level of detail, it
puts you right there and you can see the little
boy that he was, uh and imagine what that must
have been like for him. And uh, you know, the
the real miracle here is that that we got the
Bob Beckland that we did, Uh, given given what his
childhood was like, the fact that this guy somehow managed

(42:23):
to persevere and uh not go over the edge was
was really unbelievable. And he'll tell you that, uh and
truthfully so, no question. It was all about training for him.

Speaker 7 (42:36):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
Once he once he realized that, uh, and he's now
calling me on my cell phone, how's.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
It going on?

Speaker 4 (42:45):
Once once he realized uh that training was his escape
that would work for him. He just dove into that headlong,
and that became his salvation. No matter how bad things were.
He trained and trained and trained, and and that was
the one place he could go that he felt safe.

(43:07):
And it was the one place, he said this tonight,
that he would go to make himself feel better. And
and that's been a consistent theme through his life, you know,
to this day. But but you would never have gotten
that story from him, you know, even even two years ago.
I don't think you know, because when we when we

(43:29):
first laid down the beginning of the book early on,
none of that was there. And it was only after
a couple more years of working together and building that
trust that that that came out.

Speaker 8 (43:44):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell, host of the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
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(44:05):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
pw boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
One more question about writing the book, and then Bruce
you can take over with some some questions. Also, you
had Rob, you had not written a book before or
I'm trying to remember in your ForWord, was this pretty
much a first time effort for you?

Speaker 4 (44:29):
No, I have written I had written four other books,
but they were all non fiction, uh, sort of school
related books. The best known of the of the bunch
is called Law School Confidential, which is basically how to
Survive Law School book. And then that's Okay, Bond, that's
that'spawned a series med school, business school, and college, but

(44:55):
they were all very different. This was my first, my
first foray into you know, into biography slash autobiography, you know,
and I I say both because it kind of was
both right, I'm I'm I'm writing in Bob's voice, but
you know it, I'm I'm a credited author in the

(45:18):
book too, so it's it's and also you know, telling
the story through other people's voices also, and that was
the hard that was the hard part to try and
figure out because it does interrupt the narrative to to
break it with a you know, a two or three
page quote from Harley Race or Terry Funk or Pat

(45:39):
Patterson or whoever. But that that information that came out
in those interviews was so relevant to the story and
to the history that I felt like we couldn't leave
it out. Uh And and so that's why the book
is the way it is.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
And that's what I was. It was getting out in
terms of not having been on the on this specific
path of working one on one with somebody telling their
life story and a story that you knew quite well,
and as you portrayed in the forward, which made me,
I mean, the preamble to the book makes you really
want to read the book just for your sake to

(46:16):
see what you, as a fan was able to uncover.
Any wrestling fan who grew up, especially in the pre
Internet age, you know, where information was harder to come by.
You to have the opportunity to ask all the questions
that you would have wanted to ask as a fan
watching it in real time, it had to be just
a thrill, but also get to feel it. It was

(46:37):
a big responsibility. I mean, you're the one person who's
going to get a chance to do this. What surprised
you about the process and how did it go differently
working with Bob specifically than you anticipated.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
Well, I'll tell you you're right about the responsibility. And
you know, the internet was pretty was pretty hard on
me when we blew you know, four or five or
six or ten deadlines. I don't know how many there were.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Uh, there were a lot, I remember that, that's true.

Speaker 4 (47:05):
Yeah, you know, people people started wondering whether you know
the whole book was a work or you know, it
was really fun it was. It was funny. It was
funny to watch that because you know, I kept saying
to myself, you know, just wait, you know, the product
will be worth the wait. And and the reason for.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
The direct new Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
You came through, Rob, the differences your book came through.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
So it's it's funny because I'd never blown it. I'd
never blown a deadline on a book before. This was
the first one, and and and then we blew like
ten of them. But fortunately my editor at Skyhorse, Jason Katzman,
wonderful guy. Uh is a huge fan also, and it
was the perfect marriage for this book. I can't I

(47:55):
can't say enough about about Skyhorse and the and the
job they did, but Jason just said, look, I understand
the delay. You know, we're willing to be patient, and
we just Bob and I really wanted to make sure
that when the book came out, it was right, and
that the facts were right, and that we had fact

(48:16):
checked and you know, double sourced everything, particularly like we
uncovered that whole thing about the NWA World title and
how close Bob came to actually wearing that belt. And
I had never known that story, you know, I was
oblivious to that until I sat down with Harley Race
and he told me about it, and then you know,

(48:38):
it was it was you know.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
I want to ask you about that, but I wanted
to ask you There was a very provocative quote closer
to the end of the book from Harley Race talking
about Vic Jay McMahon wanting to control the nw A title,
wanting to get a hold of the nw A title,
And of course, you know there was the fight in
the in the late fifties early sixties when Buddy Rogers

(49:05):
had the n w A title and and and McMahon
was controlling a lot more of the dates than the
rest of the rest of the National Wrestling RANS was
comfortable with. But did he say any more about that,
because I certainly got the impression that that that political somehow,
that political game was going on in the eighties as
the current visc man was taking over the company. Did

(49:26):
he talk about that any because that was really interesting.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (49:31):
He I think the point he was trying to make
is not that Vince Senior was trying to control the
nw A belt. I think Vince Senior wanted more access
to the n w A champion. You know, Vince had
the biggest buildings in in the United States, Vince Senior.
You know when you when you look at at what

(49:52):
the what the w w F territory comprised, I mean
it was you know, you had the Garden, you had
the Boston Garden, you had the Spectrum, you had the
Capital Center, you know, the Hartford Civic Center. These these
are big buildings and you know, particularly Madison Square Garden
drew international media and you know with the Felt form

(50:14):
and then the MSG Network. It was it was the place,
which is why when you look at the results of
Madison Square Garden over the years, you see all these
characters from other promotions coming in to get their their
exposure there. You know, everyone wanted to wrestle at the
Garden because of the because of the promotion and the

(50:38):
exposure that they would get. And I think what was
going on was that Vince Senior was hoping to have
more access to the n w A titleholder than he had,
and you know, that wasn't possible given how much the
the NWA champion traveled, right, and so so I think
that's what I think, that's what Harley was talking about.

(51:00):
That there was also another fascinating this was sort of
my my my one real regret about the book is
that I was not able to get to the bottom
of what happened at the Omni on July fourth, nineteen
eighty two with Flair. But it sounds like there was
something going on behind the scenes that night. Bob's antenna

(51:23):
were up, were up when he got to the building
that night. He was he was very aware that the
vibe was all wrong, you know. And when he was
describing this to me, he's like, Rob, you know, I
wrestled Bockwinkle, you know, in the AWA in Toronto or Calgary,
I can't remember which now. I wrestled, you know, Harley

(51:45):
Race all over the place. You know, I'd go to
Japan to wrestle Anochi, you know, and nowhere else but
at the Omni on July fourth did I feel so
convincingly that something was amiss. And right around that time,
there was, you know, there was this sort of change

(52:07):
of control in the w w F from Vince Senior
to Vince Junior, and the Crockets were the head of
the n w A at the time, if I recall correctly,
and there was some real discomfort around that change because
I think Vince Senior had the respect and trust of

(52:29):
most of the promoters in the n w A. I
don't think that Vince Junior had that same level of trust.
And so, you know, one has to wonder what was
really going on that night on July fourth, because it
culminated in a phone call that was broken by a
number of people on the Championship Committee of the n

(52:51):
w A and and Vince McMahon senior, you know, and
then you know, led to Crockett and I forget who
else was with him coming to Backland in the bowels
of the Omni and saying, Okay, we're doing the double
count out. And Bob's reaction to that was, well, if

(53:12):
this was going to be a double count out. You know,
why did that require a phone call with all these
people on the night of the event? Something Something was
clearly going on there, and try as I as I did,
I couldn't get to the bottom of that, which was frustrating,
But that was the that's sort of the big mystery
that's been left for someone else to uncover.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wade Kellor Podcast
at pwtorch dot com. Wadekeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(53:57):
our mailbank segments, that same email applies Keller podcast at
PW torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us
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ask us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch
dot com.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Yeah, you think about who's alive back from then, Jim
Barnett has gone I very much have this vivid memory
of the Georgia Championship Wrestling show that featured Backland and
Rick Flair, and I believe particularly the back and forth,
you know, for Backlan's reputation for not giving good interviews,
I thought he acquitted himself really well with Flair, and

(54:37):
I thought you guys are very accurate with how Flair
did that too. But you know, Rick Flair is still around.
I'm thinking, well, oly Anderson was around then he's still around.
That would be you know, and then you just think
what would be gained by you know, Montreal screwjobbing for
lack of a better term, by back when the WF

(54:58):
title at that point, I mean, what what you know,
you know, with no cameras or whatever it is, it's
just a really interesting and then particularly Rick Flair, you know,
was not the was not the wrestler that you know,
it was not the shoot wrestler that that Bob Macklin
was as hard to think of of Flair being able
to put him in that compromising position unless it was

(55:19):
just you know, scrappy mcgow and the referee going one, two,
three as fast as he could with some kind of nonsense.
I mean, it's really. I mean, I know something's up,
but it's like it's a very provocative mystery.

Speaker 4 (55:34):
Well that, yeah, and and to you know, to hear
the story of that in in in in the telling
the way Bob told it. You know, people always talk
about Bob as being a bit paranoid and and and whatnot,
and uh, you know, there was a little bit of that,
to be candid. You know, when you when you hear
him tell the stories about you know, going to Japan

(55:54):
or going to Mexico, and you know, you're not speaking
the language, and you don't know what people are talking about,
and you've got to protect the title. And you know,
he's he's been potatoed in places and you know people
people have have veered off course occasionally. You know, he
talked about that match he had in Mexico where you know,
it was basically just a free for all. He was

(56:16):
in the ring with an Oki and nobody had given
him any direction about what what was supposed to happen
or or anything. He was down there by himself. I
don't think Arnold Scoland even went with him for that,
So you know, there there is some some reason for
for the paranoia. And I wouldn't. I don't want to

(56:38):
overstate that. I don't. I think that's been overblown, you know,
largely in people calling Bob paranoid. I think Bob cared
very deeply about protecting Vince Senior's reputation and protecting Vince
Senior's title. But that night at the at the Omni,
something was up. And you know, just to hear the

(57:00):
pieces of the story that I was able to get
from from from from players who were there, you know,
you have the backstory of the change of control going
on in the w w S. You have the fact
that the Crockets and the McMahons were never really that close.
If you look at the talent trading that went on,

(57:21):
you know, there there wasn't a ton of talent trading
between the Crockets and the McMahons, you know, while people
were wrestling in the Carolinas, right, I mean, after they
left the territory, they came up. But you know, Eddie Graham,
you know that.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
I think of Greg Valentine and Sergeant's laughter. I mean
the kind of they kind of had they you know,
they finish up in one one of those areas and
then moved to the other and come back and forth.
They were definitely top towent. But yeah, you're right. I
mean I'd never really known that, like the Crockets did
not get along with this man.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
And yeah, I don't want to I don't want to
overstate that either. I don't know that it's that they
didn't get along, It's just that they weren't as close
as for example, Vince Senior was with Eddie Graham or
Sam Mutchnik. Uh, you know where they had really those
those were really good tight relationships, you know, even with

(58:14):
with you know, Fritz van Eric down in Texas. Uh,
you know, there were there were you know, decent relations there.
But uh, you know, the the so there was the
tension with the change of control on the w w S,
you know, the changing of the guard from Vince Senior
to Vince Junior. You have you know, the two champions

(58:35):
in the ring in the omni uh away game for Backland,
you know, and and this strange phone call that happens,
you know, at six o'clock at night before the match
is about to start. Uh, that involves you know, multiple
players on the n w A board.

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (58:54):
That's a very strange set of circumstances. And uh and
it and it.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Rob, do you have something that you think is the
best hunch that you felt would be inappropriate to publish
for all of all of history in a book that
is your theory on what might have been going on.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
So let me let me backtrack to what we were
talking about earlier. You you mentioned, you know that that
this was the one chance to tell this piece of history,
you know, through Bob's story, and I did feel a
real responsibility for that, which is why the book took
so long to come out. We we worked really hard

(59:36):
to fact check, We worked really hard to get multiple
sources for things, which is you know, if you think
about it, it's kind of funny because, like you know,
the wrestling business itself is a fiction, right, so you know,
people are always working and and it's hard to cut
through all that. But but what you're looking for is

(59:58):
the truth about the story, what was what was the
story really? And so you know what we put in
the book is what we were able to to verify
through multiple sources. Another example of that was, you know,
the the iron Chic veran Gania Hulk Hogan story, which

(01:00:18):
you know has for a long time been you know,
a rumor, and we were able to confirm that, uh,
you know, by multiple sources. Three different people uh uh
you know admitted to to hearing about that. So we
were able to we were able to verify that that
that seems to have been an accurate story as to

(01:00:41):
what happened down down in Georgia. You know, I guess
my my my feeling is, uh, you know, Rick Flair
on his best day, Uh, couldn't you know, couldn't do
anything to Backland in the ring?

Speaker 9 (01:00:56):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (01:00:56):
So you know, there was no real danger of of
you know, of Flair doing something and and Flair knew
it because when you know, when when Flair and Backland
came together in the bowels of the Omni before the match,
you know, the first thing Flair said to Backland was
don't hurt me, Bob.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
So it was interesting that Bob and Rick didn't want
to do two counts. It was just one counts because
they didn't want that third count of the ref was
that in that match?

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:01:24):
Yeah, and and that you know, and and isn't it
interesting as another sort of you know, conspiratorial fact if
you want to get you know, fun with this, that
match was not taped, right, for years and years and years.

Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
It's been the holy grail of tape traders. Right, everybody
wanted some video that somebody must have taped of of
of Backland Flair at the Omni, and apparently there was
an agreement not to tape the match, which.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
Was born out. I do want to jump in here
a little bit backland, you know, w W w F
matches and backless matches, particular because of the Prison Network,
because of Masis Square Garden Network, because of what became
us A. There's a lot of those main events. But
in Georgia Championship Wrestling and then mid Atland Championship Wrestling,
there was a lot of big, important main events that

(01:02:17):
were very specifically not taped. It would have been unusual
to tape a main event, a full main event like that,
even as as important as that main event was out
of in Georgia. That would have been really that would
have I mean, I think that would have. I'm sure
they that would have, let you know, ranked up, cranked

(01:02:38):
up the paranoia to you know, another level, if there
had been cameras coming.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
Out for that. That's true, that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
But it's but yeah, it is, But yeah, I mean
I don't remember as a fan watching the watching the
promo show, the you know, the Georgia Championship Wrestling show
for that, and then looking in the magazines and all that,
I just thought, you know, I just thought, Wow, why
didn't they take that? I would buy I would buy
a copy of this even the early you know, even
in the early days of VCRs. I mean, that would

(01:03:11):
have been you know, they definitely could have made some
money about that. Rob, I want to ask you before
we go, what are your favorite Bob back When moments
or matches did you uncover where it was just like, Wow,
the heat's going crazy, He's just this is just really
enjoyable to see, enjoyable to watch, you know, as you know,

(01:03:31):
as someone who wrote this book and as a Bob
Backlhan fan your whole life, what what are the things
you look back on and go that that was really good?
I mean Backlhen was great, and his opponent was great,
and you know, the atmosphere was just on fire.

Speaker 4 (01:03:44):
Yeah, there there were a bunch, you know, the matches
with Morocco were awesome, The ones from eighty one, not
so much the ones from eighty three, but the ones
from eighty one. You know, I think if you if
if you want to put a handful of people together,
I would say Morocco, Slaughter, Pat Patterson, Ken Petera. And

(01:04:12):
I'm I'm sure I'm leaving something. Well, you know that
that match in the in the Garden. If I'm not mistaken,
I think Buddy Rose was the first guy to put
the chicken wing over and and was willing to submit
to it at the Garden, A lot a lot of

(01:04:33):
heels didn't like to didn't like to lose by submission,
because it's one thing to get a quick pin put
on you, but you know, when you when you submit it,
it takes a lot of your heat. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Bob said, respected Buddy for that, and but he also
threw out the book, was very understanding and defended wanting
to leave his heel opponents strong because they would often,
you know, move one notch down the card, but not
necessarily leave the territory after after the program with.

Speaker 10 (01:05:00):
Him, Are you a fan of AW looking to sit back,
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Speaker 11 (01:05:14):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking?

Speaker 10 (01:05:20):
Do you want to join a discussion on what AW
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Then join.

Speaker 11 (01:05:26):
Me Joel and me Greg for the All of the
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Speaker 4 (01:05:55):
Yeah, a lot of you know, the way it worked
in the WWF, the garden was the centerpiece, right, and
the matches were first at the garden in almost all cases,
and then work their way around the territory and then
the heel when when the heel got done with Bob,
often you know, revolved the second time around the territory

(01:06:15):
with Pedro Morales with with the Icy title in many places,
often headlining the secondary towns or the gyms and places
like that. So it was important to keep those those
heels strong in order to you know, keep them strong
either for Pedro or for the you know, whatever the
feud was. I guess to answer your question, as I'm

(01:06:37):
thinking about it. There are three matches that come to mind.
The the nineteen eighty title versus title match with Ken
Petera from the Garden the Texas Death Match was was awesome,
you know, the the.

Speaker 3 (01:06:51):
Heat that's really.

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
And yeah, and just the way they thought over the
chair at the end, like you can just see the people,
like if you're watching the Crab, the people are out
of their chairs, jumping up and down. They've got their
hands balled up in fists and they're just like you.
You can feel the energy even you know, looking at
it on video. There was a match from the Spectrum

(01:07:18):
sometime in late nineteen eighty with Sergeants Slaughter in a
steel cage where Backland gets out of the cage and
the spectrum just blows up in a way that is noteworthy.
I think you can find that one online somewhere. And
then the third one is one that I've never seen,
but it's one that I've heard about from just about
everybody who I interviewed that was around at the time,

(01:07:41):
and that was the second match with Pat Patterson at
the Garden that ended in the double knockout where Patterson
knocks Backland out with the brass knuckles and then Arnold
Skullan knocks Patterson out with the belt, and they're both
and they're both they're both out, and no one answers

(01:08:01):
the ten count. Patterson describes that, and I think he
talks about it in the book. I think I put
that excerpt in. But when I sat down with Pat
in Montreal and talked to him about that, that's the
match he most remembered, even more than the cage match.
He was like, the garden that night was was just
off the charts because you know, no one knew what

(01:08:24):
was going to happen, and so that that would be
one that would be fun to see again. Rob.

Speaker 1 (01:08:32):
One second, hold on, you'll know why, Rob, we didn't
get to talk before the show. Are you fine running
longer with us here past the top of the hour?

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Yeah, no problem. And uh and I'll also tell you
I'm happy to to listen mostly, but also to join
your call next week with Bob. To the extent you
want some some backstory, I'm gonna let Bob. You know,
I'm gonna let Bob take the lead on that because
people want to hear from him and not from me.
But you know, to the extent that that it will

(01:09:02):
help still in anything, I'm happy to listen to that
conversation and jump in where appropriate.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
And I'm I'm loving listen to Bruce and you talk.
So I just wanted to be sure was I didn't
want to hold you over a few have somewhere to
be No.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
No, I just pulled myself another cup of coffee. It's
all good.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
And then my second question is to Bruce, are you
okay sticking around for all? Because I'd love to just
sit back and do some more here.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
Yeah for a little while.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Sure, okay, go ahead then Bruce, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
Yeah, my understanding. And I you know, my memory is
a little bit wrong about this that I'm like you
and that like I I've collected over the years a
lot of these matches, and I don't know that there's
I've never seen a tape of that particular match, which
is kind of makes it another holy grail because you know,
the cage matches there, the first matches there. I think

(01:09:49):
that maybe the third match, but that's the one where
you go, oh, that's the one that was great, because
I mean, I just thought pat Patterson was so important
and some I mean, it was such a well booked
pro Patterson at that point in his career was everything
that the All American you know, you know, young new
champion with not a lot of experience wasn't. Here was

(01:10:10):
pat Patterson who was shown as winning the North American title,
then winning the Intercontinental title, and he's been a champion
and bragging all these years, and he had the brass nuts,
the equal you know, the more than equalizer, and he
was just going to fleece this young underdog.

Speaker 7 (01:10:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:27):
And not only that, but the guy could flat out
work too, you know. Yeah, Backlund had to that point
been in the ring with a bunch of monsters. Uh
and and Patterson was was really the first guy to
come along other than Cosro Vaziri, you know when he
was the winner of the Battle Royal in seventy nine

(01:10:48):
and they had that great technical match at the Garden.
You know, Patterson was the first guy to come along
in a while who wasn't a monster, right, but he was.
He had guile, and he had cunning, and he was
an unbelievable worker with with you know, a great work rate,
and and and then yeah, then he had the brass knuckles,

(01:11:09):
which you know, to hear him describe it, you know,
he he didn't really want to have that be his thing,
but uh, that was the way the the TV match
with with Ted DiBiase was booked, and it got so
over that they just went with it. And and so
that became sort of you know, the Ace and the Hole, Like,

(01:11:30):
here's this great wrestler with all this experience who's been
all over the world and is being touted that way,
and he and he wins one title, and then he
you know, goes to South America quote unquote and and
wins you know, the South American title and and merges
it with the North American title to become the intercontinental title.
What a great story that is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
I mean, yeah, he was just a dynamic on those promos.
Ye Gon punk and.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
He had the Wizard. Yeah, it just was it was
It was very very convincing, and and Pat was loving
it too, you know, because to hear Pat tell the
story and and I do think there's you know, some
truth to this, which is why I put it in
the book. Literally, the way it came out of Pat's
mouth is, you know, Vince brought Pat in to help

(01:12:24):
round Bob out. He wanted Bob to have some time
in the ring with a real veteran who you know,
who could call a great match and and really work
with Bob and get the most out of him. And
you know, uh, let me add a little bit to
that story, which is, you know, I've I've heard over

(01:12:46):
the years a lot of people speculating about why Patterson
got four at the Garden and was Roddy Piper supposed
to be you know the guy but he you know,
there's the story about him coming to the TV tapings
around the same time and him looking skinny and small,
and you know, I don't know what happened there, but

(01:13:07):
I do know that. And then there's the ox Baker story.
People are wondering whether it was supposed to be ox Baker.
The answer, as far as I was able to determine,
is Patterson got four matches because they were blowing the
roof off the place. And you know, to hear Bob
described the way the pre match meetings went with Vince

(01:13:29):
Senior and Pat, and to hear the other side of
it from Pat was entirely consistent. You know, Match one,
you know, sold out, and so they were, you know,
immediately back from match two. Match two was Pat's idea.
It was the double knockout. That was Pat's booking idea,

(01:13:51):
and it went over, you know, unbelievably, to the point
where both Bob and Pat say that, you know, Vince
Senior greeted them at the curtain with this sort of
of you know, overwhelming enthusiasm uh and and decided that
they were gonna they were gonna go again. Uh. And
so match three ends with Pat hitting Bob with the

(01:14:11):
brass knuckles and knocking him out of the ring, I think,
and ends in account out if I'm not mistaken, which
surprised everybody, of course, because here's the third match. It's
supposed to be the blowoff, and it isn't.

Speaker 3 (01:14:24):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:14:24):
And then they come back in the cage and the
fourth match and you know that one, you know. Uh. Similarly,
the energy in the building was was crazy. Uh And
and to hear, you know, I gave Pat a lot
of ink in the book talking about the cage match
because that was sort of the the graduate course for Backland.

Speaker 11 (01:14:43):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
You know, Pat basically said to Bob, you know, this
is gonna be a semi shoot, you know, in order
to get the most out of this match, It's gonna
be a semi shoot. I'm gonna try and get out
and you're gonna have to stop me. And of course
that played on Bob's you know concern learn about you know,
am I going to get screwed over here? But of
course pat wouldn't do that and and wasn't going to

(01:15:06):
do that. He just knew how to push Bob's buttons
to get the best out of them. So that that series,
I think is a huge credit to both guys. And
you know, Patterson was just such a genius about how
to call a match and uh and and you know
if you watch those they're they're just amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
Yeah, they are great matches.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
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(01:15:56):
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(01:16:16):
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Speaker 3 (01:16:29):
It made me think too, I mean, I want to
ask you about a guy who who who back when wrestled.
I mean, I you know, dig the bull do on Brower.
I thought was unusual in that he was well pasted
to sell by date at that point, and I thought
y'all did a very fair job with with him. But
a wrestler that I remember as a fan, I was

(01:16:50):
kind of surprised that was the god of massive square
guard and main event he got one against Bob Backland.
I don't want to get about him. Well, Sweet Hanson
as as a fan in the Carolinas, as a fan
in the Southeast when I was a kid, and I
mean a young kid, Rip Hawk and Sweet Hanson, you know,

(01:17:14):
the the blonde Bombers were the you know, crew cut
like Pat Patterson and Ray Stevens, the crew cut, peroxide,
blonde cigar smoking bad guys. But down here, you know,
Jimmy Snooker was a big deal. Sergeant Slaughter was a
big deal. Greg Valentine was a big deal. You know,
moving up to John Stubb was a big deal, and

(01:17:35):
moving to New York, moving to that. But Sweet Hanson
was he'd had a heart attack. He he was working
enhancement matches. He was on the other side, you know,
he was losing the Ricky steamboat on you know, TV
studio matches, that kind of thing. He you know, he
just and then all of a sudden, there he is
in Manson Square Garden waving a Confederate flag, you know,

(01:17:58):
got a jean jacket of to kind of the kind
of hide that he was quite a veteran. What do
you know about Sweet Hanson and how he got that match?

Speaker 4 (01:18:08):
So here's the thing with with the arena backstory. Bob
only knew as much as Vince Senior told him. And
one of the things that that uh, you know, Bob
talks about in the book, and you know, we didn't
we didn't pull any punches on this is you know,

(01:18:29):
Vince told him who he was going to wrestle and
when and how how often Bob didn't lobby. He the
only thing he ever lobbied for was the Broadway with
with Morocco. Uh and I think actually, let me amend that,
I think I think he actually also lobbied to go
Broadway with Valentine in seventy nine, if I'm not mistaken.

(01:18:51):
But but that was it he wanted. Bob wanted to
introduce the w W w F with Valentine and one
W with Morocco to the Broadway, which was an NWA
staple but really hadn't you know, hadn't been done in
the WWF for for a while. I wanted to show
the fans that you could go an hour and not

(01:19:11):
be bored. Other than that back when never you know,
he really wanted to wrestle Dick Murdoch because of what
Murdoch had done for him in Amarillo. He wanted to
wrestle Terry Funk at the Garden. That was being talked about,
I think in nineteen eighty, but it never came to pass.
And Bob made a big point he said, you know,

(01:19:33):
Vince handled the business end, I handled the wrestling end,
and we didn't mix those things. So Bob doesn't know
why Sweet Hanson got the main event. Bob talks about
how he was worried about his health and you know,
didn't want to didn't want to up the work rate
too much because he was worried about about Sweet Hanson

(01:19:55):
in the ring, and they didn't wrestle very much anywhere else.

Speaker 9 (01:20:00):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
You know, if you if you look at the results
from the time, it wasn't like they were going all
over the place. So it does make one kind of
wonder whether that was a spot that might have been
promised to somebody else that didn't pan out. It wasn't
the Patterson spot, but it might have been the sweet
handsome spot.

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):
Yeah. I mean, that's interesting stuff, and it did change
you know that. I thought it was very interesting when
Backlan talked about looking around the locker room and kind
of the cronies and guys who'd been there for a
long time, and how the work rate wasn't quite what
he thought it should be and he wanted to change that.
And I know I've heard Greg Valentine talk about going,

(01:20:42):
you know, being being invited up there and you know,
to do the Broadway and to to kind of lengths
and the matches and and just said that how gratefully
was to Bob Becklan the first time they did that,
because Backland carried him through the hour and got him
through the hour, and you know he had done it before,
but to do it in massive square garden that he

(01:21:04):
just I mean, the respect that that that Don Morocco had,
that Greg Valentine has for for Backland really kind of
showed through and that ability to do that. And of
course I thought one the highlights of the book, and
it should be, is the idea that Don Morocco and
Bob Backland had, you know, in the same day, did
two different hour long broadways and two major arenas. I mean,

(01:21:26):
that's just you think about the physical toll that would
take you think about you know, you just think about
the mental toll too. I mean, that's you talk about tough,
mentally tough, physically tough athletes. That's that's an amazing accomplishment.

Speaker 4 (01:21:40):
Yeah, And there's there's a there's a really funny moment
in the book that that that I really wanted to
put in there that Bob told me about and and
and Don Morocco told me about too, that that happened
in the in the runway of the Spectrum, you know,
just just out of view of the fans, Vince Senior

(01:22:02):
had come up and was, in a very unusual turn
of events, was actually at the Spectrum. He he almost
always only came to the TV tapings and to the Garden.
It was very unusual to have him appear at any
other arena. But he was at the Spectrum that night
for the for the second half of the double Broadway

(01:22:25):
that they did, the first one being I forget was
it at the Capital Center or the or the Baltimore
Civic Center. I can't remember where the first half of
it was Cap Center. I think in the afternoon anyway,
And and uh, you know, Morocco had lost like twelve
pounds of water weight and Backland had lost five or
something in the first match that afternoon, and they had

(01:22:48):
been drinking water and and you know, Morocco is a
really funny guy. He's got a wonderful wit, and you know,
he he apparently, you know, said to McMahon, what are
you trying to do to me here? You know, you
know what you're putting me in another hour Broadway? I mean,
you know, it's one thing for Bobby, but like you know,

(01:23:09):
are you kidding me? And and and and McMahon looks
at him and says, well, don you know, we didn't
get it quite right the first time, so we're going
to do it again. You know, you could just knowing
the parties, you know. And I of course never met
Vince Senior, but I've gotten a very very good idea
of who he is based on, you know, talking to

(01:23:31):
everybody about you know, what he was like. You can
almost hear that conversation happening, you know, in the in
the hallway there between the three of them, you know,
talking about the main event, and like, wait, we're going
an hour again. We just did that four hours ago.
You know, must have been a nice moment.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
Talk about what you learn about the dynamic in the
relationship between Bob and Vince Senior, because in the book,
it's interesting there's a lot of people that you would
think Bob knew very well who talked about in their
voice or Bob talked about not actually spending a lot
of actual, you know, time with them outside of ringtime
in a little bit of prep time, even though they
were in that same territory together and we're programs together.

(01:24:14):
Vince Senior is another guy that we talked about at
the beginning of this conversation. Obviously Bob looked up to
as a father figure, but I don't get a sense that,
and maybe I'm wrong that there were a lot of long,
heart to heart conversations between them. It felt like it
was more business and to the point talk about how

(01:24:35):
much cumulative time that they spent actually getting to know
each other and talking.

Speaker 4 (01:24:43):
The day to day was brief, and I think the
opening paragraph of the book talks about the fact that
Vin's senior was a man of few words as it
related to the talent, right even with Bob, to whom
he was probably the closest. Uh you know, Bob says,

(01:25:04):
you know, he always asked after Bob's family, you know,
how he was feeling, how he was holding up. Bob
always asked Vince, you know, how the matches were, whether
he was happy. You know, they talked a bit at
the television tapings about you know, the next three weeks
itinerary and what was going on, and and of course

(01:25:25):
at the garden they would talk about, you know, the match,
whatever the main event was that month, and you know,
they talked about the finish and what they were looking
for But those were all brief conversations. I think the
the sort of overlay over it all, though, goes back
to that handshake in the bathroom at the Philadelphia Arena.

(01:25:47):
Vince Senior had vetted Bob Backland. He had vetted him
with with Eddie Graham, he had vetted him with Sam Muchnick,
you know, Jim Barnett and others, and he was completely
convinced that Bob Backland was the guy he was looking for.
He was looking for somebody who could be the all

(01:26:08):
American boy, that was the archetype. He was looking for
something different from what Sammartino had been because you can't
you can't replace Bruno, you can't succeed Bruno, you can't
emulate Bruno. You got to go in a different direction.
Bruno was a one of a kind, and you know,
we should talk about him for a minute too at

(01:26:30):
some point, because what a wonderful human being that guy is.
But anyway, so I think, you know, once Vince had
made up his mind about what Bob was was about
and had you know, had pushed all in on Backland,

(01:26:51):
he was not going to be deterred from that plan.
And Bob gave his all every night, you know, was
visiting hospitals and working with wrestling teams in high schools
and junior high schools all around the territory, and was
building credibility sort of with the mainstream outside of you

(01:27:13):
know what was then, you know, the wrastling business, right
it was it was unusual to see a professional wrestler
stepping out of the smoky you know, gymnasium or arena
into the mainstream culture and being a role model for anyone.
That was just not something you saw very often. And
back when was doing that, and I think the combination

(01:27:35):
of that, coupled with the fact that he was always prompt,
he was always sober, he was always on time, and
he always delivered, you know, was something that built the
level of trust with Vince Senior over time and just
confirmed that he had made the right choice. And so
the two of them had a level of trust with

(01:27:58):
one another that was remarkable for the business that they
were in.

Speaker 12 (01:28:09):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch Show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 6 (01:28:21):
And I'm Chris Lansdell join us as we covered the
ever changing landscape of New Japan as they navigate an era.
We've no lack of talent, but I really need to
create some new styles. You can stream the new seven
Stop podcast now from Pro Wrestling Torch.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
At the end of the book, there's a transition going on,
and I wondered, does Bob Feelingy did Bob Feelingy disappointment?
And Vinceton and Vis McMahon, the one that he knew
so well that he wasn't kept up to stay with
the change in ownership and the change in direction that

(01:29:05):
was common. It seems it seemed to me that Backland
was caught really flat flooded by all that. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:29:12):
It's it's interesting I think at the time. You know,
Vince Junior when he came in did what what any
good promoter would do. You know, he went in a
different direction. Uh, he didn't try and find the next
Bob Backland. He went, you know, totally different, the same

(01:29:33):
way that Vince Senior had done when he went away
from Bruno. I mean, Bruno was a brawler. Uh, Backland
was a technician. Right, they were very different champions. Vince
Junior went with Hogan. You know, you say what you want,
and there's lots to say, but you know, went in
different direction and then approached Bob and wanted Bob to

(01:29:54):
turn heel jealous heel and uh, you know, and and
and turn and chase Hogan and be like a sort
of like a Rick Fleer or a Harley Race character, right,
not not necessarily a total heel, but like a jealous
like how how could the fans have forsaken me? Kind
of heal, right, but a rule breaker nonetheless, and Backland,

(01:30:19):
you know, to his credit, remarkable credit. And we talked
a lot about this at the at the signing tonight
because people people were really interested to hear why did
you just disappear in nineteen eighty four? What happened? You know?
And the answer to that was, you know, Vince Junior
made the correct promotional decision in wanting to turn Bob

(01:30:40):
heel to face Hogan. It would have been a white
hot feud. It would have been totally explicable and reasonable
given what had happened, and it would have been a
very credible angle to pursue. Bob just didn't want to
do it. And I've seen the contracts for it. They

(01:31:00):
they you know, Bob has them that that Vince wanted
Bob to stay on and play this heel, but to
do so would have destroyed the All American boy and
for the for the for the twin reasons that his
daughter was six years old, uh and was just starting school,

(01:31:20):
and and would not have understood why, you know, all
of her friends and classmates, you know who you know
had previously thought of her father as this you know,
heroic figure, would suddenly be hearing from their parents that
you know that he's now this you know, villain. Coupled
with the fact that that Backland was you know, he

(01:31:42):
was a real character. I mean he he the character
and he the person were the same guy. Uh. And
so you know, how was he going to explain to
the wrestling teams that he worked with, and the high
school teams and the and the your high school teams
and the tournaments that he sponsored. How is he going

(01:32:04):
to explain to all of those people that hey, I'm
now a rule breaker and I'm a heel and still
protect the business. You couldn't do it. So he had
to make a choice. And the choice was take the
money and turn heel, or you know, or you know,
go home, and he chose to go home. And some

(01:32:25):
would say he was a mark for his own character.
I don't see it that way. I think he was authentic.
He was he was a man of his principles and
of his beliefs, and he recognized that his time in
the limelight was over. I think a lot of people
over the years have tried to create heat between Vince
Junior and Bob that isn't really there. I think at

(01:32:48):
the time, Bob, you know, felt bad about the way
that the transition happened and didn't like the idea of
Hull Cogan as the champion, but he understood it and
certainly with the passage of time. You know, I was
present for a really remarkable, uh, meeting between Backland and

(01:33:11):
Vince Junior, who I think really had affection for one another.

Speaker 3 (01:33:16):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:33:16):
Back in those days they were you know, they were
about the same age, uh, and you know, there had
been this this chasm that had been created between the
two of them, you know, and when when Bob met
with Vince Junior to talk about the Hall of Fame,
I was. I was there, I was in the office,
and uh, you know, the two of them had a

(01:33:37):
really genuine sort of you know hug and uh and
and were I think happy to have gotten past you know,
the history. And I think Bob really understands now, with
the passage of time and and and the lens of history,
why Vince Junior went the direction he did. And and uh,

(01:34:00):
you know, I don't think he begrudges it at all.
I think he understands it. And as far as the
transition itself goes, you know, there's there's there's been a
lot of discussion about Oh, Backland didn't want to drop
the title to the mass Superstar. He didn't want to
drop the title to this guy or that guy. It's
it's that's, that's all fiction. Vince Senior approached Backland at

(01:34:24):
the TV taping in December and said, Uh, we're going
to make a change, and uh, it's going to happen
with the Sheikh at the garden. He was just the
guy who happened to be there at that time. How
do you want it to go? And Backland was very
grateful to Vince Senior for the opportunity to to have

(01:34:46):
a hand in the booking and to decide how to
how to put it over and uh, you know, didn't
want to surrender the title through one of the you know,
time honored ways of a foot on the rope or
you know, some foreign object or some screw job or something.
He said, no, we gotta, we got to put the
title over the way that you know, it should be

(01:35:08):
put over. It should be put over and there shouldn't
be doubt about who the winner was. And so Backland
came up with the idea of having skull and throwing
the towel and h and Vince Senior liked it, thought
about it, and the next night, I think in Hamburg,

(01:35:29):
I can't remember which one was, which Hamburg was first
or I think Hamburg was second, came back and said
I like that Bob and patted him on the on
the backside and uh. And that was that and uh.
And then when they met for the pre match instructions
in the in the you know, bowels of the garden
on the twenty sixth of December, that was the finish

(01:35:51):
and uh, it was not a screw job. It was
not as as many people have speculated on the internet.
That didn't know and Scotland was you know, in on
it with no it was. It was Bob's idea from
the beginning, and it was a pretty convincing finish, I thought.
And it put the sheeic over, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
Yeah, And it set him up and set it up.
He was the perfect you know, he's the perfect transitional
champion for hul Cogan. I think that the stories about
I mean, I think a lot of wrestlers are taught
to at some point in their career about being world champions,
about being important world champions. And I wouldn't be surprised
that Bill Eady Math Superstar wasn't. But it just made

(01:36:36):
more sense for the Iron Chic. You know, the the
USA US a part of hul Cogan and hul Commania's
has forgotten a little bit. And and frankly the same
thing with Bob Backlan. So for for the chic from
Iran to beat the all American boy and then turn
around and run into you know, the force that was

(01:36:58):
hulk Commania at that time, you know, just was common
sense looking to me.

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Speaker 4 (01:37:44):
Yeah, it's just but it you know, to think about it, it
just worked out that way, you know. It was it
was fortunate that Cosro was the next guy, you know,
and and it hadn't come together because if you if
you look at the there's a there's a match from
the Spectrum in November where back Clund is one and
done with with with the Sheik. He pins him with

(01:38:04):
a backslide in the middle of the Spectrum ring and
so you know, it was it was a little surprising, uh,
you know, to to see the Sheek go over unless
you knew what was going on, you know, behind the
scenes with with Vince Junior, and Hogan and and and
veran Gania and all of that. But yeah, I thought

(01:38:24):
the booking made sense. I think Backlan thinks the booking
made made sense. Uh and uh you know, and the
finish was was Bob's idea and he was you know,
the I think the rumor about Backland not being willing
to drop the title to to a non wrestler, uh
is is well, it's false, but I think where it

(01:38:45):
came from is that it's sort of the flip side
of that story. Bob was very happy to drop the
title to Casro because the two were good friends. Back then.
The Sheik was not the shell of a person that
he is now. He was, you know, a very real,

(01:39:05):
you know, amateur trained guy who was very serious with
his with his training regimen and uh and and clean
at the time. And so you know, Bob was I think,
very happy to uh to have the Sheikh be the
guy because he was an authentic wrestler. But it wasn't

(01:39:26):
that he was unwilling to drop the title to someone
who wasn't an authentic wrestler. It was just that the
Sheikh was an authentic wrestler and that made Bob happy.
So that's I think where that you know, where that
rumor got started. What happened with Bill Edie, I have
no idea. I personally loved The Mass Superstar as a heel,

(01:39:48):
even though I was a huge Backland fan. I thought
the Mass Superstar was one of the one of the
best heels that the w w F had seen in
a long time. And the way he was sort of
going through people with that neck breaker and you know,
crippling Eddie Gilbert quote unquote crippling you know, and and
stretchering people out on television, and then and then doing

(01:40:09):
it to Bob uh in October at the garden, you know,
giving it to him on the concrete. It it it
lent itself well and would have been a pretty good, uh,
you know, a pretty good way for for Bob to
go out to lose to the guy who you know
was his kryptonite. Maybe, right, you could have told the

(01:40:29):
story that way. This is the guy that has Bob's
number that Bob can't figure out, you know, how to beat.
But but as you pointed out, you know the fact
that the Sheikh was, you know, this anti American force
and Backland was the all American boy. And then the
bookend on the other side is Haul Cogan, you know,
the guy with the American Hero T shirt when he

(01:40:50):
comes to the ring. It's perfect, it's perfect booking.

Speaker 1 (01:40:55):
Brust, you have a final topic for for Rob today?

Speaker 3 (01:40:59):
No, Well, thank you for really excuse me just pulling
together one of the best and most fastening stories from
and there. I think that Bob Beckland is an anomaly
and a lot of UH in the professional wrestling business
in a lot of positive ways. And and he's a
cornerstone of the company that that you know, that that

(01:41:24):
has most of the market share in professional wrestling today.
And I just it was the book I hope to
read when I heard there was a Bob Beckland autobiography,
and and it so exceeded my expectations. I think you
did a great job.

Speaker 4 (01:41:39):
Well, I appreciate that. Tell everyone, you know, we're definitely
we're definitely hoping to create some buzz, you know, and
and get people talking about the book. It's it's more
than a wrestling book, you know. It's a story. It's
a story of of perseverance and UH and hope and

(01:42:00):
effort and overcoming you know, unbelievable odds too. I mean
the you know, what we've talked about obviously is what
fascinates us, which is the inner workings of the business,
right because we all watched it and lived it and
lived through it. But you know, the the backbone of
the story is this remarkable journey of this kid who

(01:42:21):
you know, really had no reasonable hope of becoming anything,
uh and somehow managed to overcome those unbelievable odds and
then you know, was homeless, living in the trunk of
his car, eating tuna fish out of a can with
his hands, you know, uh, making five bucks a night
for Leroy McGirk, and then you know, suddenly gets discovered

(01:42:42):
by Terry Funk and Dick Murdoch and next thing you know,
you know, he's the w w F champion. I mean,
I've left a lot out obviously, but you know, the other,
the other amazing irony was the fact that the guy
who who convinced Backland to get into the business was
Superstar Graham and too just to bookend that story, you know,

(01:43:04):
the the night that they were both working out in
the gym and Fargo, Graham was wrestling for the a
w A and Backland was still in college and and
was just working out in the gym, and Graham comes
up to Backland and says, geez, you know, have you
ever thought about becoming a pro wrestler because you look
you look good? And Backland said no, but it was

(01:43:25):
the second time that somebody had suggested that, and uh,
and Graham recommended that, you know that Bob go get
trained as a as a wrestler. And then you know,
next thing, you know who's standing across the ring at
the garden. But but Superstar Graham, the guy who brought
him in. It's it's a you know, if if it
was fiction, it would be it would be hokey.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
Yeah, and just that that Superstar Billy Graham was in
the midst of this fascinating cycle in his career, and
then it played out later on just how celebrity and
same works in our country and works and and pro wrestling,
and how it worked with with Superstar Billy Graham and
then with web Backland is one of the better on
themes of the book.

Speaker 4 (01:44:08):
I thought, yeah, you know, and and also you know,
Billy Graham has has a lot of bitterness towards Bob,
and you know, you can understand that, and and Bob
does understand it, and he he understands it in the
way that I think Billy Graham doesn't know that he
understands it, because you know, Bob will tell you that

(01:44:29):
in nineteen eighty four, when the lights went out, and
that's you know, we we we actually titled the chapter
the Night the Lights went Out on Broadway the Billy
Soul Song. But you know, when the lights went out
back when, you know, plunged into a pretty serious depression
because you know, it's hard for any of us to

(01:44:49):
imagine what it's like to travel around, you know, with
that kind of celebrity, you know, walking down the aisle
and have twenty thousand people screaming for you, you know,
and cheering for you and hugging you and just wanting
to touch you, and then waiting outside the arena to
get your autographed till the wee hours of the morning,
and then all of a sudden, that's gone, it's done,

(01:45:14):
and and nobody's paying attention to you anymore. It's like
somebody turned the faucet off. That's a you know, a
pretty interesting psychological dilemma, you know, for somebody to overcome
and and back when says, you know, I get it,
you know, Graham was white hot, he was incredibly over

(01:45:35):
Uh he was you know, great on the microphone, and
even though he had run through most of the babyfaces,
and and you know, that's why the WWF model didn't
really allow for heel champions for very long, because it
takes longer to build a babyface with credibility than it
does to to to build a heel. But but Graham,

(01:45:57):
you know, could have been turned and probably would have
worked as a as a as a face if he
had turned. And you know, he was lobbying for that,
and the fact that that that Vince didn't go for it,
I think was crushing for him. And uh, you know,

(01:46:17):
you can understand, you can understand that. And so you know,
Bob basically says, look, I understand why Billy's angry and
bitter and and upset because I felt it too. You
know in nineteen eighty four, when when the world moved
to Hogan and forgot about me, I felt the same way.
So that was interesting.

Speaker 13 (01:46:42):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daly Cast Feed Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak
follow news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:47:02):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
pass cast every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast feed.

Speaker 4 (01:47:22):
Let me just let me just end with this. Uh,
there's you know, it's important for us to do this
this week instead of next week when we have Bob
on the phone too. You know, there's been a lot
of talk about the mister Backland character and in the
Hall of Fame speech and the you know, the vern
Gania funeral and all that stuff, and people wondering like,

(01:47:46):
is Bob Backland okay? You know, has he gone off
the deep end? Is he you know, is something wrong
with him? You know, I've worked with this guy for
five years, as closely or more closely than anybody else
has over the last five years. Bob Backland is a
is a quirky guy. You know, he's He's an amazing,

(01:48:09):
incredibly decent, honorable, uh generous to a fault guy who's quirky,
you know, he's quirky because of his upbringing. He's quirky
just generally because that's the way he is. But you know,
he's been to dinner at my house, He's played with
my children. You know, I've spent countless hours across the

(01:48:32):
table from him. The mister Backland character is a work.
He tends to break into it more than than I
would like, because you know, it's just not my favorite
part of his his career, but it's it's a work.

(01:48:52):
And when he when he does that quirky mister Backland stuff,
he's working. When he turns that off, he's Bob Backland.
And you know there's nothing wrong with him. He's the
same lovable, normal, you know, quiet, seft spoken, humble guy

(01:49:15):
that he's always been.

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
Well, you kind of covered my closing question, which was,
and maybe you can add to it briefly, which is
what surprised you most in the last five years getting
to know him so well that contradicted or surprised you
based on what you had seen from Afar as a
fan of his and a student of the industry.

Speaker 4 (01:49:41):
I guess the most surprising thing was the choice that
he made in nineteen eighty four. You know, the wrestling
business is a work, right, you are a character in
a passion play. That's what it's all about. And you know,

(01:50:02):
Bob Backland this you know, simple kid from Princeton, Minnesota
who grew up you know, uh with with very modest means,
not a lot of education. Uh, you know, and uh
and and wanting for a lot. Somehow managed to cobble

(01:50:22):
together the character to understand that in nineteen eighty four
when he was faced by the choice of taking these
lucrative contracts from the w w S to turn heel
and and Chase Hogan. And you know, history proves that
he he he could do it right. Everybody said, bo,

(01:50:44):
Bob Beckland could never be a heal. Well, we saw
that he could. And that you know that that turn made,
as I said, made a lot of sense from a
storytelling point of view. But he turned it down, and
he turned down millions of dollars as a consequence. And

(01:51:04):
and to talk to him about it, he doesn't have
an ounce of remorse about that. And and and when
you probe him on it, and you really push and
you ask, and you and you and you try to
get at you know, really you don't have any remorse
about the fact that you were off the stage during

(01:51:25):
the real heyday of the industry, He says, no, because
I have my integrity. I can look those kids in
the eye when I was, you know, on the mat
with them at the wrestling tournaments, when I had faded
into obscurity, and I knew that I had done the
right thing. I just don't think there are many people
in the world that would have made that choice. And

(01:51:48):
I'll tell you it was very affirming for me because,
you know, we spent five years putting this book together,
and you know, it was all on speculation. We didn't
know if three people would buy it when we were done.
But you know, to to learn that this guy had
that kind of character and made that kind of choice,

(01:52:10):
you know, was really that surprised me. Even even it
surprised even me, who you know, idolized this guy for
what I thought he was, and it turned out he
was exactly what I thought he was. And more so,
I just don't think there are many people in the
world that would have, especially coming from his background, that
would have that would have had the sort of moral

(01:52:35):
compass to figure that out. Rob.

Speaker 1 (01:52:38):
Thank you so much for your time. I have really
enjoyed hearing more stories and we're going to do our
best to sell some copies of the book because it
does come with our highest recommendation. We don't do that
for every book, and so it means something, I hope
when I tell people this is a real important piece
of considering yourself a student of the industry and understanding

(01:53:01):
its evolution. And as you said, it's it's a fascinating
book about a person, not just the wrestling aspect of it,
but it's well written, it's very detailed, and it is
a window into how the wrestling industry worked leading up
to you know, Vince mcmhon junior as he's known, and
a major change in the beginning of kind of the
national expansion WrestleMania era. So thank you for your time.

(01:53:23):
We'll talk to you next week with Bob Bruce Mitchell
Senior Columns with Pros and Torch. Thank you so much
for uh for for being here today too.

Speaker 3 (01:53:31):
I enjoyed a fascinating book and as I said about
back in, one of the cornerstones of what we watched today,
and great to have this insight into his career and
his life.

Speaker 4 (01:53:43):
Uh, thank you and thank you both for what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:53:47):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:53:48):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:53:48):
And the book is available right now as an ebook.
That's how I consumed it on my nook. You can
also get it on an Amazon Kindle device. If you
order it on Kindle, you can go to PW torch
dot com slash Amazon and then click on the link
and we'll get a little bit of commission on the
sale too, if you want to do that. That's for
all your Amazon purchases. By the way, PW torch dot

(01:54:09):
com slash Amazon. Start there, click on the link land
on the Amazon homepage and click away. The book is
Backland from All American Boy to Professional Wrestling's World Champion.
It has a five star rating right now on Amazon,
and I think after you read it you'll add a
five star rating to that also, so check that out.
We'll talk to you next week. Rob Miller, thank you

(01:54:30):
so much again for your generous time and insights today.

Speaker 4 (01:54:33):
Looking forward to it my pleasure guy.

Speaker 1 (01:54:35):
Excellent, goodnight, good night, and Bruce, thank you very much.
We'll be hearing from you tomorrow with Travis Bryant on
this very show, the Friday edition.

Speaker 3 (01:54:45):
You will all right.

Speaker 1 (01:54:48):
Thank you again everybody for joining us today and we'll
be having bought backland with us next week with a
good phone connection and Rob joining us too. So thank
you everybody for listening and until next time for specially
Rob Biller. Wadekeller signing off, invite you to email the

(01:55:11):
show with feedback or questions or comments. That email address
is Wade Keller Podcast at petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller
Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback
on Twitter. You can follow us on Twitter at pw
Torch and follow me at the Wade Keller That's at
PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

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a classic bout that they were in attendance for. We
love variety and you can expect lots of it at
the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw tors VIP subscription information on

(01:57:12):
a list of all the VIP benefits is available at
pww torch vipinfo dot com. And yes, all VIP podcasts
are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and Android devices,
or you can stream them directly from our ad free
VIP mobile site, See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (01:57:31):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weightkeller Pressing podcast
and Weightkeller Processing Post show and give us a five
star rating. We hope you think we've earned that score
with our fast turnaround times and our quantity and quality
of wrestling analysis throughout the week. So take a moment

(01:57:53):
out for us and do us favor and give us
a five star rating at Apple Podcasts. That helps us
on search returns and helps us grow. And if you want,
you can add a few comments about what you like
about the programs in the comments section. Thank you so much.

Speaker 12 (01:58:08):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (01:58:23):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (01:58:37):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
free access to these shows and a ton of other
VIP exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain
access to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our
contemporaneous week to week coverage through our progressing Torch Weekly
newsletters dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with
streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows
from the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with

(01:59:00):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast
library dating back to the year two thousand and three.
There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
that that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now
we're approaching twenty years of podcasting, Go VIP and dive
into our post pay per view roundtables are covered with
some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long

(01:59:22):
form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout
the years. Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. We
have a streamline sign up for me and you can
pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or
debit card. In one or two minutes from right now,
you can be a VIP member and diving into our library.
Pw torch dot com slash go vip

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