INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Mick Foley talks WWE, wrestling stories, live callers, emails

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Give yourself a reason to look forward to. Go into
the mailbox each week with a PW Torch Newsletter paper copy.
Subscription details at PW torch dot com slash paper Copy.
It's twelve pages every week packed with my TV reports,
along with exclusive features such as my cover story on
the top story of the week, our pay per view
roundtable reviews from the Torch staff, exclusive feature length columns

(00:21):
from Greg Parks, Rich Fan, Sean Radikin, Alan Coonahan and
Zach Hadorn, Torch Talk transcripts, the latest news and more.
PW torch dot com slash paper Copy. Take a break
from screen time and settle in every week with the
megadosup wrestling news and analysis. With a Pro Wrestling Torch
Newsletter paper Copy edition. In the year twenty twenty two,

(00:43):
you can get a full year of home delivery for
just ninety nine dollars, or try us for an eight
week trial subscription. PW torch dot Com slash paper Copy.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for this week's Interview Classic,
where Wade Keller Interview is one of Pro Wrestling's newsmakers.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Ten years ago. This week, I caught up with Mick Foley,
one of my earliest Torch Talk subjects when I was
doing the transcribed interviews for the Prosing Torch newsletter. He
was one of my favorite people to interview early on.
I've interviewed him a lot over the years, but it
had been a long time, and on the August thirteenth,
twenty fifteen episode of the PW Torch Live Cast, he

(01:41):
joined me for an hour and a half and we
just caught up and also talked about current events and wrestling,
shared some he shared some wrestling stories, He talked about
his standing with WWE, and much more with live callers
and emails. So settle in a real fun conversation here
with mcfoley from ten years ago. This week. This is
the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast ten years Ago Interview Classic, Saturday,
August sixteenth, twenty twenty five. Welcome to the p W

(02:15):
Torch Live Cast. I am Wade Keller, editor and publisher
of the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter since nineteen eighty seven,
also Pwtorch dot Com, the website since nineteen ninety nine,
the sister website covering MMA MMA toorch dot com and
also host of this the PW Torchlvecast the last five
and a half years here at PW Torch livecast dot com.

(02:40):
It is interview Thursday on August thirteenth, twenty fifteen, and
in just a moment, I am very excited and please
to be able to introduce a first time guest on
this program, but a long time a friend and subject
of Torch Talks over the years. I break this week

(03:02):
or touted this week that Mick Foley Cactus jack mankind
has been one of my favorite interview subjects in the
twenty seven going on twenty eight years that I have
been doing interviews of pro wrestlers, and it has been
too long. The last time I interviewed him was to
interview him about his first novel, t Tim Brown for

(03:23):
PW Torch Newsletter, a Torch Talk, where he talked about
the process of writing that novel, and I really enjoyed
that interview. And he'll be joining us in just seconds
because I'm going to not waste any more time. By
the way, if you're listening to us live, my apologies
for the show starting late today. That almost never happens,
but my shortcuts home to avoid traffic, ran into two

(03:47):
detours that I did not know about. So I'm kind
of taking some deepress, little zen calling down from traffic
stress and bringing on board Mick Foley for the interviews.
Should do it? See if this connection is working, Mick,
can you hear us?

Speaker 3 (04:04):
I can hear you on that?

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Then?

Speaker 5 (04:05):
Can you hear me?

Speaker 1 (04:06):
I sure can. Thank you, uh, thank you for your
patience and coming on today's program.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
You're welcome right.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Now. The uh now, the phone connection is kind of shaky.
You're sounding garbled. Let me have you do a test
test seek right now again? Apologusiness?

Speaker 3 (04:30):
Oh hear me? Hear me?

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, you you are. You're still breaking up? If I
gave you our number to call directly instead of me,
would you be able to do that?

Speaker 5 (04:43):
Yeah, let's try it.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Okay, So let me give you the number six four
six seven to one nine eight two eight, and I'll
look for your number on the switchboard and I will
email you that number right now too.

Speaker 5 (04:57):
All right, thanks for call right now?

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Great, Thanks man, all right, thanks everybody, great patience. I
tried to use a different method for patching him in
than usual and it did work, so hopefully a direct
connection from him. Well, we're better, so fallow for his
name on the switchboard and we will bring him on board.
I'm so excited for this interview because he's not listening now,

(05:19):
so he won't know and he won't think that I'm
gushing too much. But one of the nicest guys in
this industry and that I have dealt with, and just
a real genuine person, and his work with charity since
his time in the public eye as a full time
wrestler has been admirable and I think just very genuine.

(05:44):
Let's try this again. I'm Mick, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Can you hear me now?

Speaker 1 (05:48):
It's perfect?

Speaker 5 (05:49):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
I'm glad that worked all right, Mike. I was just
talking for a few seconds between talking to you just
a minute ago that I think that since you have
left the public eye full time on national television as
an active wrestler, you have been people. You know, Jimmy
Carter's in the news this week with the sad news
that he has cancer, and people talk about him as

(06:12):
being the best ex president in terms of what he
has done with his name value and being an ex
president and what he's able to be able to do
with that equity to do good in the world. And
I think that you are a role model when it
comes to taking that equity that you have from your
years in the ring and the admiration the public has

(06:34):
for you, and turning that into almost every public appearance
you do pushing something having to do with the charity
work that you do. Was that something that you kind
of planned all along or is it something where you
found yourself, Wow, I don't have to pack my basi
and go wrestle. I want to give back, And it was
sort of something you thought of after basically retirement came about.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
Oh wow, it's kind of thank you very much. I
did a top ten list of the best x in
about a year ago, and I wouldn't put myself on
my own list, but I might be flattered of other people,
you know, made a list and had me on there.
I say, you know, when you talk to me. In
two thousand and three, I was at Paul Newman's Hole

(07:15):
in the Wall gang camp, and I was actively involved
a lot more in uh, you know, active volunteering that
I am now. But I specifically remembered thinking, you know,
as I realized my my days of full time wrestling
were in the ring that you know, i'd better, you know,
i'd better show I care while people still care about me.
And I honestly thought my shelf life was going to be,

(07:38):
you know, just a couple of years, the post wrestling
shelf life. And so I made a lot of phone
calls when I got done with the full time WW schedule,
and I started reaching out and uh, you know, finding
groups that I could volunteer for, and and over the years,
you know, I kind of whittle them, whittle the groups
down to you know, to a few calls. This is

(08:00):
where I can make the biggest difference. But yeah, that
was really a conscious effort because I I, even though
I wasn't often the uh, you know, the wish for
a h for a wish granting organization, I would always
go out of my way to try to make someone's
day a little bit better. And I know on the
few occasions when I was you know, a child's wish,

(08:20):
I would round up as many guys as I could
try to make that occasion as special as possible. And
I just I tried to do some of that in
my post you know, post post wrestling days.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
Absolutely, And so we don't lose the opportunity to do
it later in the show because we get wrapped up
in our conversation. What charity now are you or what
charities how are you working with? Or what projects do
you have coming up? And how can people who appreciate
you taking time to do the show and appreciate your
career maybe not harms aware of what causes you believe in.
Where can they go to find out more about what
you're doing?

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Sure, well, you know what people who listen to maybe
familiar with the fact you know that we haven't I
haven't done an interview with you for a long time,
and you've been very polite in asking, you know, it's
you know, for the past few years. And this year
you pointed out that I had emailed you and said,
you know, let's do it in August when my when

(09:16):
my rain Raffle is happening. And I realized what I
had done is that I originally planned to do the
raffle around SummerSlam, thinking that was in New York City,
that I could have a better chance to get four
tickets instead of two, and that there wouldn't be as
much competition with all the events surrounding Mania. And then

(09:37):
in the interim. You know, we decided to do it
during Mania and it was a big, a big success.
But when you pointed that out and showed me my
own words, I thought, yeah, well I did say it
beyond in August and and here I am. I wasn't
planning on promoting anything, but as long as you give
me the opportunity, I'd say the two that I'm still
you know, most active on our RAIN, which is the

(09:59):
Rape Be Abused since as national network they can be
reached for volunteering, donations or for people in need at
RAIN r AI n N dot org. And then Child
Funitored International as a group I've been working with since
nineteen ninety two to try to sponsor kids and you know,

(10:21):
create better sanitation and education for children in need around
the world. That's something my wife and I got involved in,
you know, twenty three years ago.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Why listened
to commercial breaks? When you can go vi ip and
experience our shows with the ads and plugs removed. Pw
torch dot com slash go VP. That's pw torch dot
com slash go vip for full details, or go to
Patreon Patreon dot com slash pw Torch. VIP rate start
as low as four dollars in ninety nine cents to
remove the ads and plugs. For Patreon, full VIP membership

(10:57):
starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents. Yourself to
a streamlined at and plug free listening experience with a
VIP or patroon membership excellent. So in terms of people
going to websites or your website or anything like that,
or following you on Twitter, where where can people go
if they want to find out even more about what

(11:19):
you're involved in?

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Well, I try to keep it real way, So yeah,
everything the website is realmicfolly dot com. Twitter is at
real mcfoley, and Facebook is Facebook dot com Real mcfoley,
and and yeah, I will mention if we have big things.
You know, the annual rain Raffle has really become has

(11:41):
really helped a lot of people out and I appreciate
you guys getting the word out. And one of the
nice things about the Raffle is you realize that every
time somebody mentions it or retweets it, they're actually decreasing
their own chances of winning. And it's only it's very
seldom that somebody will say, hey, but what are my
chances to win? And you want to say, like if

(12:02):
you're really concerned, you know, like people realize the chances
they're very slim, and they get together and you know,
for a good cause. The same way. I was really
proud of the wrestling community and the way they supported
Jerry Lynn last week. Yeah, that was really nice. I
mean to see like eight hundred people don't donated money

(12:23):
in just three or four days and helped there really,
you know, not only a great wrestler, but a class
act out with his neck issues. Was was really nice.
So every now and then the community he does get
together and we do really positive things.

Speaker 5 (12:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
I was so happy with the way things worked with
Jerry Lynn. I didn't know, you know, I mean, Jerry
wasn't a guy who was on you know, six WrestleManias
in a row. And I thought, you know, what kind
of support will there be for Jerry for this? And
you know, will people look at what he did and
where he is and why he's in the position he
is to need surgery and need financial help and who
will support him? And not only did do it, but

(13:00):
people in the industry did who worked with him or
respect the work he did, and Jerry's one of those
guys make I'm glad you brought him up. I mean,
I think he is one of the best. I think
his top twenty matches of the last twenty years match
up pretty closely with the very top tier of anybody

(13:21):
in terms of the top twenty matches, not in terms
of crowd size or his paydays. That actually makes it
even more umber pulling away. Yeah, I think that you
would be. It's really difficult to find somebody whose best
twenty matches are better than his twenty matches for the
last twenty years.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
I agree with you, man. Yeah, People companies were built
on his back, and it's nice to know that people
remember those things very good, excellent.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Well, one of the things that I wanted to talk
to you about before I look at some email questions
here with a variety of topics, is you and I
have been doing interviews, certainly in the I think nineteen
eighty nine probably was the first time we did a
torch talk, and we did a few of them, and
it was that kind of at the beginning of wrestlers

(14:04):
who would go on record for publication with their name
attached and talk about the inner workings of the industry
and the business side of things, and it wasn't so
much Hey, let's deconstruct a match and let's talk about
what a finish is going to be. Not that kind
of thing, but just you know, here's where my career is,
Here's where my aspirations are. I know, and listening back

(14:26):
to some of the interviews we've done in recent years,
you know you talking about, well, if I can achieve
this in wrestle in front of this crowd in this country,
or have a contract and make this much money for
you know, three years, I'll consider it a huge success.
Looking back at the totality of your career and where

(14:46):
you came from, are you still kind of amazed at
how much you were able to achieve with the criticism
or critics of your style Ollie Anderson being one of
the vocal ones, but that the business actually evolved with
you to the point that you didn't just have a place,

(15:09):
but you were able to take what you were very
good at on the ring, in the ring and on
the microphone, and I think reached an incredible high level
of the business appreciating you and make and you making
money off of it in it making money from your talents.
I just think if we look back to the nineteen
eighty nine, nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one period and then

(15:31):
fast forwarded you, you would almost not believe that the
industry did evolve at the right time for you and
that you helped bring it along in that attitude are especially.

Speaker 3 (15:41):
Yeah, Yeah, that's an excellent point. Yeah, michaels I, you know,
my career bar surpassed, you know, my wildest expectation. And
I think maybe when we were talking and post my
post WCW in nineteen ninety after my first run and
my goal was really to you know, to go to Japan.

(16:03):
That's you know, really why I thought, you know, my
my future. Why I didn't see the w W thing
happening at all. And uh, I mean, yeah, I was
very fortunate that I had people, uh pushing for me
at the right time. Uh. You know, it's so so
for a guy, you know, so a guy like Ollie

(16:26):
Anderson didn't appreciate my style, but guys like Jim Ross
and The Undertaker did at the most opportune times. And
in retrospect, guys like only not appreciating my style, we
we're blessings in disguise because I was able to make
moves and leave places and uh and and and leaving

(16:46):
the right way with a notice and with the door open.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
I didn't burn too many bridges until after my wrestling
career ended. Uh So, yeah, it was it was really Yeah,
it was really, you know, kind of shocking because you know,
you know, WWE using you know, going hardcore was just
not in the cards back when I met you in
the late eighties.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah, and from just a kind of looking from a
you know, ten thousand feet a year down at the
wrestling industry, at where it is today versus and the
whole journey that it's been on, are there things that
surprise you the most in terms of, like I'm even
thinking of kind of the k faith because that's kind
of going full circle back to my question about you
doing torch talks with us early on, and you know,

(17:34):
Paul Haman, Jim Cornett, Eddie Gilbert, Pat Chris Cruz and
w's w early torch talk subjects who saw wrestling I
think all kind of in a similar way about where
it was headed and some changes that needed to be made.
I argue pretty regularly these days that I think that
what we call k fab you know, the aspect of

(17:54):
from the opening to closing credits, trying to create as
realistic of a show as you can, and even with
social media that we've almost gone too far, you know,
Like I feel, I find myself ironically sort of arguing
to pull pack a little bit on what I was
advocating for twenty five years ago in terms of I
think now wrestling would be better if people work, if

(18:19):
w w E and TNA and even r OH and
indie promotions, that they all work a little harder to
pull the curtain back closed a little bit on certain aspects.
How do you feel on that kind of general.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Thought, Well, it's actually, you know, on the on the
television shows, I think people should still be allowed to
escape and suspend their their disbeliefs, you know, willingly, and
then and then have forums like like Twitter and and
uh and other internet options to talk more openly. So

(18:50):
I think there's a balance you always have to find,
you know what. You don't want to just pander to
the you know, to the smarter fans, but you also
don't want to install anybody's in intelligence. But I think
during the course of the show you know, matches should
be called as matches and uh, and it should be
understood that people, you know, they do like the escapism

(19:13):
that wrestling provides.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, Like I think about James the Snake Roberts, one
of the great characters of the eighties and nineties, and
there's a movie coming up. He just called me about
a half hour ago and let you know that that's
the Jake Roberts story. I think is that the resurrection
of Jake Roberts. There.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
I watched it at the Accountability Crib with d DP,
and I can vouch that it's an excellent movie.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Oh great, Yeah, and he would he may be on
the show next month, Jake might be in addition to
d DP talking about that. So Jake is fresh in
my mind of that. And and Jake was somebody who
the last thing that I would want to see as
a Jake Roberts fan at any stage of his uh
you know, prime years, whether it's world class or you know,

(20:00):
wwwb out especially WWLT. The last thing I want to
do is go on Twitter and have him portraying himself
in a way even on Twitter that completely undercut the
image he projected on television. Like I kind of want
to think, and I've said this before Live testisms know,
I kind of when I watched Seth Rollins on Raw. Now,
I kind of want to think when he goes to
the DMV every year to renew his license, everybody in

(20:22):
there goes, God, this guy's back. Oh God. You know,
like I don't want Seth to be like this nice,
gregarious guy in his neighborhood. I want him to be
the guy that no one at the DMV actually wants
to help because he's such a jerk. So like, I
kind of want wrestlers to try a little harder, in
other words, to match up even their social media image
so that I think, I know they exaggerate on television,

(20:45):
but you know, like you always kind of got to be,
you know, as captas Jack, you were kind of Nick
Foley as you love. You were an alternate, an alternate
aspect of your an embellished business man always said it's
you know, turned up, the volume turned up, and even
man tapped into a side of a side of you.
And I think you always got to kind of be
consistent in that way where what you were portraying on

(21:08):
TV did authentically match something deep inside of you. Even
as you said in some of your brilliant promos, it
was some deep dark corner that you hated to visit.

Speaker 6 (21:20):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell, host of the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.
Each week he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro wrestling dot Net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Ditcher, Downcast, and

(21:41):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's pw boom dot com.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, and it's uh, that was kind of out
of necessity. I think if I'd come along in your
earlier erow were in the territories were still strong, and
I would just bounce from territory to territory, you know,
portraying you know, the original Cactus Jack as a more menacing,
psychotic heel, and there wouldn't have been a need to

(22:13):
change things up. But I think when you're on television
for a longer periods of time, like the audience really needs,
you know, they need to know more that there. You
need to add depth to your characters. And and like
I said, out of necessity, the characters would would change,

(22:34):
you know. The example is nineteen ninety six Mankind was
you know, was really I thought effective, but fairly one dimensional.
And it wasn't until I was given the opportunity, you know,
almost you know, fifteen or sixteen months after joining the
company to do the much longer range interview, longer form
interview with Jim Ross, where people started to feel like
they knew me as a person and that that clicked immediately.

(22:59):
But I agree with you there a certain guys absolutely
who should stay in character. And I said during my
Hall of Fame speech, and I've said several times on
shows in the interim that you know, I don't want
to live in a world where I wake up and
see that the Undertaker has started tweeting, you know that, yeah,
to see lol dead Man like there should definitely be Yeah,

(23:21):
I think some guys absolutely should you know, should be
kept in character because that's the way people want to
see them.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, exactly. And obviously there's some characters, you know, John
Cena going grocery shopping doesn't do anything to his character,
you know, Randy or Alberto de Rio and Mark Henry
at the peak of their heel turn or at the
peak of their He'll run on raw. A couple of
years back, they actually showed them during a row when
they were trying to get feel he at a charity event.
We booked the kids and smile it and it was like,

(23:49):
you know, two different departments really weren't in sync. And
I thought, you know, that took me out of the
story they were telling me about Mark and Del Rio.
They've actually gotten better about that since I think more
than just me was kind of outraged about that. It's just, yeah,
why go out of your way to remind to let
people know that the reason that the person you see
on TV is acting the way they are is it.

(24:11):
Why do anything to make of you or think that's
not because that's what they're actually really like in real
life to some degree. And I like that your promos, Mick,
were among the first long form promos. You seem like
because you know, both of us, you know, similar in age,
grow up watching somebody hold the microphone and somebody would

(24:32):
talk for thirty seconds to ninety seconds and it was over,
and I don't know if you were the first or
the most prominent, but especially in ECBLUE, you had a
chance to go on longer, and that has now become
the norm, probably almost to a fault, you know at
times with some guys who just aren't they're not really
on a weekly basis that interesting for twelveth great minutes?

(24:54):
But you you were, I mean, and so I want
to take you back to that time too, And maybe
you say, what was it ECW when you first felt
you had that license and freedom to go on longer.
That gave you that freedom or do you think that
you even got to explore that at w W SIM
and talk about the fight for a time for doing

(25:14):
promos that were more in depth than just the sound bites.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yeah, well I was allowed to. I had a lot
of freedom in WCW and you know, we were talking
about sixty and ninety second promos and know things have
evolved from them, and they have. But at the same time,
I think guys learned so much from doing the town
specific interviews where you would have you know, thirty or
forty fifty interviews sometimes more for specific towns, you know,

(25:41):
it'd be ninety seconds. Montgomery two weeks Away Go sixty
seconds Jacksonville thirty seconds go. And most guys would have one,
you know, like a basic interview, they would modify to
fit the towns and the dates. And I know that
I was, you know, one of the few guys who
would try to do something different on every interview. And

(26:01):
it's actually DDP who heard me doing promos during my
second run in WCW in the fall of nineteen ninety one,
when I didn't know I was being brought in for
you know, what was supposed to be a six week
run to be one of a series of heels kind
of fed the sting to you know, put some new
life into me. To had a couple of tired programs,

(26:24):
and they wanted to do some things where he was
fed some heels in rapid order. And it was DDP
who heard me doing these promos. Went over to Dusty Rhodes,
it's a dream. You really need to listen to this guy.
And so I think guys could learn a lot. I
think it's one of the things that's missing is just
the repetitions. You know, like anything else, you get better
with time. And I think that's one of the things

(26:45):
I liked most about the for All Mankind DVD is
that you could see the process happening, and you could
see the confidence growing and the improvement in the promos,
so that when I did have a chance to expand
on thoughts, like the groundwork was already there, I would
think it would be really hard to just go out

(27:07):
with a microphone and say, okay, give me your innermost
thoughts and make it good your live. So I'm really
fortunate that I had places to fail and small stages
to work on before I got to, you know, a
national national television audience, so that when I was given
the chance, I was I was ready.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
Now I think we've probably gone in today's and then
I would make How much wrestling do you watch these days?
I mean it's I know, it's just it varies for
X wrestlers from year to year two, But do you
kind of keep up on things a lot or somewhat?

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Yeah? I watch almost every RAW. I watch smackdowns when
I can. I'll be honest, like, I don't. I don't
rush to watch a SmackDown that's on DVR the way
I would RAW. And I will check out Ring of
Honor and and TNA occasionally, and I love catching up

(28:02):
on the independence, Like I make it a point to
watch as many matches as I can on the independent
scene when I'm fortunate enough to have bookings, and I
feel like I learn a lot about not only you know,
the good talent that's out there, but the passion that
guys have for the business when they're you know, putting
the best after they possibly can out there in front
of a crowd, no matter what the size.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
Like I look at Randy Ort and I think he's
somebody who would benefit from being able to kind of
hit his notes quicker and not have to do the
longer promos. But sometimes they don't put they put them
out there for a long time, or they don't put
them out there at all, And like for instance, on
Monday's wrong And I'm not trying to get too out
of the weeds done like second guessing WV, this is
more just an example for a broader topic. I wantw

(28:48):
WWE to look at the entire history of how we've
promoted matches and go all right, in this industry, it's
been done a lot of different ways. Here's the way
we're doing it now. But is there something that got
kind of old and tired that you feel new again,
and Randy Orton won the Thrip Threat match went on
to fight Seth Rowlins for the title. But we didn't
get that forty five second ninety second Brandy Orton promo

(29:11):
with Renee Young backstage telling giving me as a viewer,
the reasons to get hyped up, excited and believe that
Brandy could win. And I miss that, like it seems
and maybe they think it's too old school or or
two k baby for Randy Orton to come out there
and act like that would be his ultimate dream right now,
and I'm going to do it for you guys, you
know whatever business character. I want to see more of
those short sound fight interviews, but there's obviously also a

(29:32):
place for the longer form interviews with a three hour
row format, and that's something that you know, twenty years
ago just wasn't even fathom the three hour weekly show
and not have to mention, like you say, two hours
more SmackDown and that sort of does change the needs
for filling DV time too. But I think there's a
way to mess the styles.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah, I think, you know I was. I tried to
be a real student of the game. I had to
be a real student of the game in order to succeed.
I was, you know, in case this is news to
your listeners, I was playing with limited physical hands, so
I had to feel that played my strengths, and fortunately it.
Promos became a big part of that. As I mentioned,

(30:09):
you know, I saw a career for myself in Japan
in the late eighties early nineties where Mike skills weren't
nearly as uh as necessary. But I think guys could
really learn a lot by going back and seeing what
worked for the real masters of the sixty to ninety
second promo. If guys went back and they watched the

(30:31):
Dusty Rhodes and Piper and Flare and Funk and guys
like that who drew money everywhere they went, and then
sat down and tried to figure out why that was
the case, Because you're right, you know, in the old days,
promos were delivered specifically to sell tickets, and then somewhere,
you know, in the mid nineties, it became about fleshing

(30:56):
out the character and entertaining people, which was great. But
I think if you got back to that sense of
urgency we saw in those old school promos and exected
a little bit of that into the current guys that
everybody would come out ahead.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Absolutely. You can support us on Patreon and get these
shows with ads and plugs removed, the Weight Killer Prosing podcast,
Weightkller Prossing post shows, and the PW Torch daily cast
throughout the week with ads and plugs remove, plus a
few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just four
dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Check it out
patreon dot com slash PW Torch vip. That's patreon dot

(31:37):
com slash PW Torch vip and you can also upgrade
to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon.
One of the topics, one of the other tops I
want to talk about is pretty much a ten year
anniversary of your heel turn on Tommy Dreamer twenty year anniversary.
Excuse me, that happens to be a lot. I can't

(31:58):
believe of these twenty years ago back issues that iupposed
because for VP members of the Torch site, the subscribers,
for our par actors. I you know, every week I
put up a twenty years ago back at you, and
it's kind of my way that I forced myself to
not just always be in the moment to looking ahead,
like it's good to kind of have a systematic reflection
of you know, what happened twenty years ago, and the
pace of things and all that. And I can't help

(32:19):
but I get distracted reading you know, old interviews and
Madge reports and headline stories and all that, and it's
it's good to kind of reinforce my wrestling hisstory. But
I am shocked sometimes at something that I thought would
always feel modern and and so current, and it blows
my mind that it was twenty years ago. It was
twenty years ago, August fifth, nineteen ninety five and Philadelphia

(32:40):
at ECW Area that you devastated the ECW admates by
surprising Tommy Dreamer with the DDT and the tag match
who was a pitbulls Dreamer and Tactus Jack mcfully my guest.
Today you're joining us lide by the way mcfoley beating
a raven Steve Richards and the Dudleys and Dreamer had
helped from the ring, and obviously just a really big

(33:04):
angle for you. And I put in my newswire, I
was looking at this too. Let me say if I
can find this little note and see if you remember
this or even are going to dispute my report on
the little detail here? Where did it go in the
news wire come? Maybe it was under Cactus. It talked
about how the angle was actually accelerated a little bit
from the plan because I think Chris Bedwell wasn't it
wasn't able to be at the show, and there was

(33:25):
something planned for him, and so the angle actually happened
sooner because of that. But there were a lot of time.
Oh yeah, here's my cacus. Jack's turn will be based
around the pain and misfortune he's experiencing. Deflatings are raven
is the only fellow easy of a restler understands is
paining his heel. Fir was moved ahead them off or
so earlier than expected because something was needed to make

(33:46):
up for Bedwa's absence from the card. So anyway, now
that that's a good deal. But let's talk about that
Feld turn and what you remember about how excited you
were about doing that and being able to explore a
different side of your character because people who lived through
that were go bay I looked at it. Talk about
your first field promos as still of the best even

(34:07):
the history of wrestling. I mean, I think they hold up.
But even in that moment in time, it was even
more shocking because it was the level of depth of
what you were getting at on multiple levels. Was I
still think one of the high points of your career
behind the microphone.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Yeah, thanks Waite. Let me try to try to blend
a bunch of topics we've been talking into into the
one subject. Earlier, I had said that, you know, you
and I hadn't done an interview in twelve years, and
that I had mentioned that I might come on to
promote the Rain Raffle, which I then did at Wrestle
Media instead of SummerSlam, And I think it was also

(34:47):
wanting to, you know, to live up to my word
and do the show like I said I would, But
also the intrigue of being able to talk about that
He'll turn sounded like fun to me. So it's it's
you know, most guys aren't going to remember it was
twenty years ago today or twenty years ago August fifth,

(35:07):
and then touch on the subject of k fabe and
my comfort level with it, and I will mention that,
you know, in addition to the shows that I watch Rawn,
SmackDown and TNA and Ring, we do watch Total Divas,
and I don't, like, I'm not comfortable with the idea
on television of somebody in the office coming up and

(35:29):
saying you're turning tonight, as with Naomi. I just kind
of shudder, like I don't think that's necessary, Like I
think that's too much. And then my Starn twelve goes, dad,
would that really happen? Like would someone really find out?
And I said, well, son, Paul Haman asked me if
I would turn hill, you know, like half an hour

(35:50):
before before the ECW show began, and I drove. I remember, well,
I mean I drove to that the bill VCW arena,
and I think I mentioned in that promo that evening
that even though I'd been there a dozen times, I
got lost, and I alluded to the you know, to
the concussions I'd had and the damage I'd suffered as

(36:16):
one of the principal reasons for turning on the fans,
who I thought demanded too much of us, you know,
physically and emotionally. But I remember Paul coming up to
me and saying, you know, cactuses is not fair of me.
This is the diseasion you have got days, It's not
weeks to think through. It's a career changing, you know,
great promo back and what if it he goes. I'd

(36:41):
like you to consider turning heel tonight. And I thought
about it for like a second. I said, okay, and
you already had the reason in mind. And I think
I've been quoted as saying, you know, Michael Hayes, I
love the philosophy that no matter what, the heel has
to believe he's right. And what I added to that
was like, the more you know, like day or not,

(37:05):
not vague, but the more disturbing the reason, the better,
especially if there was only one that it was a
reason that only the perpetrator could understand. And uh, I really,
you know, it was something that was it was you know,
we were learning as we went, and I think Raven
doesn't get enough credit for stepping back and letting me

(37:28):
do my thing. I think a lesser talent would have
tried to talk over my points, especially because in this
case I was kind of like his disciple and he
was showing me the light. And I think we came
out of that, you know, with like a really dangerous feel.
So we're even the big time ECW fans weren't sure
if I was, you know, mentally unhinged. And when we

(37:51):
did the and uh and and really the deciding factor,
the image I had in my mind was of the
uh Paul Mellis the sign guy helping up the sign
that Kane Dewey, and my wife's reaction when I told
her about it, she said she felt sick to her stomach.
And then I realized, yeah, it is kind of inappropriate.

(38:13):
And that guy became like the face of my heel turn.
That sign became the driving force behind the heel turn.
So when I was giving the promos, you know, I
was able to go into a place where I absolutely
believed in every word I was saying, and it was
very therapeute. I remember, you know, my wife driving me

(38:35):
with the two kids at the time, who were really young,
driving me to the house there where the promos were cut.
I think it was Ron the Pone's the cameraman's mother's
house where we go down in the basement and cut
the promos. So my wife dropped me off and went
to the park with the two little kids, and I
emerged maybe an hour later after cutting you know, not

(38:58):
only the Cane Dewey promo, but what we called the
Uncle Willie promo, and and one other you know lesser
mentioned uh promo. But I did the three of those
in a row, and I came out in this great
sense of like peace inner piece because I've gotten so
many things that were real uh you know, uh out

(39:20):
of you know, off my mind. Like I just felt
like a great weight was lifted off my shoulder. And
I'm not I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to dig
that deep, you know, to find depth their character, but
it certainly helped me. It certainly was the way that
worked for me.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Well, was there anything about once you've got in that
mode where you felt like you were leaving something behind,
that you were losing that that getting the cheers of
the pets being the hardcore hero or on the on
the contrast, did you almost find your words a little
too convincing? I'm not too convicing is judging it. Did

(39:58):
you find your own words convin and it helped, Like
you say, it almost rang so true that it didn't
alter the way that you looked at what you were
sacrificing for the fans years before, because your promos were
just so well quick, you even talk yourself really into
that train of up.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Yeah, I'm just thinking now that they know that the
promos really ebbed and flowed from the you know, from
the Kane Dewey promo that was so serious to the
uh you know, the anti hardcore, the the pro hardcore
anti hardcore promos that makes any sense, those are the
ones we did, uh you know where I would just

(40:38):
well look around and ask Paula, what can we find?
What's the wimpiest, you know, food that someone could eat?
And watercress sandwich. And then I would get out of
the mic and say, ah, you know, I you know,
I just had a watercress sandwich. I need a little
dental floss that I would use the microphone cord the floss,
my my, you know where my front ben and say, oh,

(41:01):
that's right, I have no teas because I'm hardcore. And
we go around with children's amusement park and do the
same thing with a you know, with with my ear
and and uh and so we were able to go
through a great range of emotions and uh, I cover
a lot of ground. And I know that's not a
direct answer to your to your question, but it was

(41:23):
on my mind while I was kind of daydreaming there
about just how good Paul was at letting people grow,
and that's why I've referred to him as a master gardener.
You know that he didn't try to put words in
my mouth, but he was there with suggestions and uh
and you know, I'll set the mood for growth and

(41:45):
and the understanding that everything was on the table, that
nothing was too sacred to be talked about.

Speaker 7 (41:59):
Are you a fan of the looking to sit back,
relax and listen to some like minded podcasters who share
your passion.

Speaker 8 (42:05):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking?

Speaker 7 (42:11):
Do you want to join a discussion on what AW
is doing right and what they could do to improve?

Speaker 8 (42:16):
Then join me Joel and me Greg for the All
of the Conversation Club every Friday on the pw torch
Live Cast. Fee search pw torch in your podcast app
and subscribe to PW torch Daily Cast or stream our
shows directly from pw torch dot com. Find full details
on the PW torch Daily Cast lineup at pw torchdailycast
dot com.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Absolutely so, I get to the question the aster, the
question of did you find yourself going to places you
go to sometimes during aerial promos, or were you able
to finish the promo and kind to bring yourself back
to more neophrograms.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, I could do that really easily in mid nineteen nineties.
I became harder as I got older, in the same
way that it became harder for a guy like de Snyder,
who was a friend of mine, to sit. He said,
he'd be sitting in his pool, going Okay, time to
write my next angry teen anthem, and they go, I can't,
I can't, I'm too happy, And so the promo is

(43:26):
at a certain point, you know, you know, when I
came back to wrestling, and I'm not picking I'm not
picking on TNA at all. I'm just saying that I
wasn't the same guy I was in nineteen ninety five,
and trying to go back and be that guy felt like,
you know, felt like a parody of myself. And then

(43:47):
in when I came back to ww it was given
the opportunity to do a program with Dean Ambrose. I
found that even before the neurologist you know, put uh
put a period at the end of my career that
trying to get to that dark place was really difficult,

(44:08):
like I couldn't emerge from it as easily, and that
going on a road trip and thinking about promos, which
used to be so helpful, uh, you know, really became
became difficult. Like I didn't know if I could deliver.
I really didn't know if I could deliver on that
emotional level. And uh, and and get to that dark

(44:29):
place that I used to go.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
So it was.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Together and then get back out of it.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Helped me out with the word here wait, uh dramatic,
but it really was. I mean, I really counted on
my emotions, you know, guided me and and I think
that's why, uh, the the promos came across as being
so legitimate because they, uh, they largely were. And uh,
when I was no longer that person, then it was

(44:58):
really tough to to be that guy, you know. Once
I became the commissioner, I felt like I really only
had one real comeback, and that was the one I
did with Randy Orton in two thousand and four. And
although I'm really happy that the match was all over
the years, really that was the only real comeback emotionally

(45:23):
that I was capable of making.

Speaker 9 (45:25):
Fingers crossed so thanks everybody for putting up with us.
And if you do have a question for McK fully
and you'd like to participate with a phone call, the
phone number is six four six seven nine to two
weights if you can. I'm giving priority to those who
are on hold who email PW Sorts Live cast at
gmail dot com and let me know the topic that

(45:47):
you want to talk about so that I can kind
of prioritize it because we did have some people drop
off with the technical problems who were on hold, but
I think some of them will be calling back in
And if you can't drop us an email, let us
know what you want to talk about. We can weave
it into the conversation a little smooth or again that's
PW Torch Live cast at gmail dot com. When you email,
just let us know your phone number and the email
so I know who you are on the switchboard.

Speaker 5 (46:08):
Make the uh.

Speaker 9 (46:09):
I kind of trying to think where we left off
when our call got dropped. We're talking about Paul Hayman
and the art of the oh yeah, you kind of
coming out of more.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Lazy it was, you know, to coming back and trying
to you know, revisits that character became more difficult and
less less effective, less realistic as time went by, and
that I really thought two thousand and four, you know,
in my heart was like the real comeback that everything

(46:43):
else after that point, after two thousand and four was
largely me pretending to be someone I used to be that.

Speaker 9 (46:53):
And I remember the followup question I really wanted to
ask you too, it related to all this, How have
fans changed.

Speaker 5 (47:02):
Five years?

Speaker 3 (47:03):
Yeah, well, you know, it's it's it's it's changed for
the better. I mean, uh. Part of the reason, you know,
Dana White saying wrestling is fake was such a big
deal is that you really don't hear that anymore. You
hear that so so so seldom that having a bright
guy like Dana come out and say it seems just

(47:24):
kind of it's just just unnecessary. And yeah, yeah, because
and then it was I think two days later that
a guy asked me when we returned my car something
I've always wanted to know. I said, it's like goes
is wrestling was wrestling as fake then as it is now.

(47:47):
And I kind of cut a promo on him because
I wasn't I wasn't expecting it because it had been
so long since, you know, somebody had said something you
know like that in uh to me personally, But you know,
when I started in eighty five, that was almost all
you got. So at a certain point when fans came

(48:07):
to appreciate wrestling for what it was instead of knocking
it for what it wasn't I think it was beneficial
to the business in general and to me specifically, because
I was you know, people almost went from going, oh,
I get it, He's not just losing every night, He's
losing with style. And I think it became obvious that

(48:28):
I was putting a lot into my efforts, and you know,
as wrestling people acknowledged wrestling for what it was. I
think there was a much better appreciation for the guys
like me who didn't, you know, hold as many titles
or didn't win as many matches. Yeah, but you know,

(48:50):
we're we're we're doing whatever they could to entertain the fans.

Speaker 9 (48:54):
I think if somebody on Twitter had said to Dana White, hey,
why do you charge so much for paper use? I
can go see one of Rocks movies for ten dollars,
I don't think Mike, I don't think, uh mix, that
Dana White would have shot back, well, you should only
pay ten dollars because Rocks movies are fake, you know,
And that that's what bugs me about that. It's it's

(49:15):
since the wrestling industry to a fault, going almost too
not just almost, I strongly feel too far that Diva
the Total devas example, you gave a great one in
pulling the curtain back. I think that applying the term
fake for so many reasons terms reasons that Taz spoke
out about, you know, well, aspect it's pretty determined, but
the you know, the aspects that that the way people

(49:37):
use the term fake use it doesn't really apply because
people like you say, kind of know what they're watching
when they watch it, and so it's not fake in
that sense because the presumption of reality is only from
opening to closing credits, if that, and that that pretense
isn't there anymore like it was thirty years ago, and
gradually has you know, it's been part of kind of

(49:59):
a gradual thing. So that's where I understand people getting
upset by the fake coming. And it seemed kind of
prickish of Dana to do it, but then you know Dana,
I mean, Dan.

Speaker 5 (50:07):
He's just he doesn't care and he's got all the
sides to.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
Him, so and I think he was in the you know, granted,
it's a public conversation with somebody. And I mentioned that,
you know, the two times i'd met him, he'd been
really nice and you know, very going out his way,
you know, to make sure I was having a good time.
And I thought the big, much bigger story that day,

(50:31):
and and I wrote a little bit about this was that,
you know, not that that Dana White had referred to
wrestling as fake, but that, you know, arguably the most
popular fighter in the world, Ronda Rousey, had publicly embraced
Roddy Piper both before her fight and after a fight,
like That's that's the message I think people should remember,

(50:53):
not that you know that Dana said something that you know,
people found offensive for a few days.

Speaker 9 (51:00):
Well, how do you feel in twenty fifteen, and you know,
the last few years about fans And I have my fans,
but I'm curious about yours. About fans during a match
with a heel and a baby face going at it,
telling their story, I'm loading this question up by the
way telling their story and the fans chanting this is
awesome during the match.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it was really special when it
happened to me for the first time, and I guess
I didn't realize that the fans were doing it like
every week at ROH shows like it it was, but
not quite as big a tribute as I thought it was.

Speaker 5 (51:35):
Yeah, I think it's good.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
I mean fans, I don't think they may overdo it
a little bit. You know, they may chant this is
awesome and the match is only very good, but they
don't tend to break out into it all the time.
I will say, you know, I was at a show
in Queen's for Marvelous Pro Wrestling, which is the group
that Chigosa and Nagayos has just started, and there were

(51:57):
a handful of fans trying to start their own chance
and it was largely a Japanese audience that wasn't going
along with it, and so I just like kind of
peeked my head out and said, you guys are disrupting
the show. You know, you're fans, you're being hecklers, and
they stopped, and then I made it a point to
go out and talk to them after the last match

(52:18):
and say it's a different type of audience, like I
understand you guys paid your money, but you're being disrespectful
to the talent and you're not letting them do their job.
And they really appreciated it, and they didn't know it.
And so I find that a lot of times, you know,
whether it's somebody making a chanting something during a match,
or somebody go who seemingly is going out of their

(52:40):
way to say something mean on social media doesn't really
mean it. You know, like they don't understand that the
words they're choosing, the chant they're giving, may not be
appropriate for the situation.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or aw
D of Mine in particular, send us an email if
you've got thoughts on the show or a topic you
want us to address, or a question for us. Wade
Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com, Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch
dot com. If there's anything else going on in pro
wrestling that you want us to address on our main

(53:16):
podcast during our Mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadekeller
Podcast at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction.
Let us know what you think of what we're saying,
and let us know what you want us to talk
about and ask us specific questions Wadekeller Podcast at PW
torch dot com.

Speaker 9 (53:35):
And I don't blame the fans in a lot of circumstances.
I think there's when I say blame when a match
is going on and there's a babyface making a comeback
and a heel is selling. If everybody, the wrestlers and
the promotion, setting the table, setting the tone, have done
their job, I think the fans should be wrapped up
in the moment, cheering the babyfaces comeback, not stepping back

(53:59):
and try to show how smart and meta they are
by saying I appreciate your babyface come back. It's like
if someone tells it, like if you're doing comedy Mick,
and everybody in the crowd is nodding with their hand
scratching their beard, going that was funny. That's not what
you're looking for. You're looking for ha ha ha. You're
guttural lass people losing control and so like, I get

(54:22):
that this is an awesome chance, and there are times where
it's absolutely appropriate. I mean absolutely, but to me, like
I think the new age fan who's the smartest of
all is the one who when they go to a
wrestling show. They check that that critical I'm going to
praise this wrestler for their great work rate chance or
I am emotionally excited by the performance you're putting on.

(54:45):
Put that away when you walk through the doors and
become a fan who plays along, you know, like if
a babyface is doing their job, that's what I would
love to see more of.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
Yeah, I mean I still love it.

Speaker 5 (54:55):
I really do.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
I mean, you know, there are times when I love
it more than that others and times as people, you know,
keep up with my stuff, I'll get upset about something
I see. But I remember when I went with my
kids to the NXT show in Philadelphia and Triple H said,
do you want to go out there and say a
few words? I was like really, you know, like it

(55:18):
was so much different than addressing, like, you know, an audience,
you know that that I was part of, or even
returning to to WWE. And then when Joey said Maker
had a seat next to me, you know, I was
like a little kid. I loved the match. It kind
of book ended being seen by w B cameras in
nineteen eighty three during the snook A match, and then

(55:41):
if thirty two years later there I am, you know,
still going to wrestling, still enjoying myself. So I love
the idea that a good match can still make, you know,
the Folly family jump out out of our couches, you know,
at at two counts, and I mean the fact that
two gowns may be overdone is not story for another day.

(56:01):
But I still love that as a power to, you know,
to take people and to tell it on a great
journey and tell a great story.

Speaker 9 (56:10):
Another question I've I've wanted to ask you when I've
been thinking about this interview, and I want to go
back to you meeting Chiguza Nigaiyo and talking about that
experience too, So let's bookmark that for next. But on
the topic of crowd response and fans changing over the
years and how they receive matches, how they react to matches,
what's your opinion on the last ten years of John
Cena being the face of wrestling. I think he's had

(56:33):
one of the most incredible twelve month periods I can
remember any top star having, you know, go I mean,
obviously Flair at his peak was phenomenal and in some
ways superior to John, and John would admit that, but
the last twelve months, I think John has done such
tremendous work against such a wide array of opponents. You know,
finishing a match with a broken nose.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
Mayy not have been.

Speaker 9 (56:54):
Wise of him, going all the way back to the
beating he took from Lesnar and the series match theat
with Kevin Owens more recently, all that phenomenal year. But
even stepping back, kind of looking again from ten thousand
feet looking down at the business, are you kind of
surprised that John Cena, with his traits turned out to
be kind of the of quite a successful, not boom

(57:18):
period level, but quite a successful centerpiece face of the
industry as a post Attitude era kind of At first
it almost seemed like he was the rebound boyfriend for promoters. No,
he's the straight you know for Vincent man. He's a
straight laced guy. It's kind of who can ask, but
he actually kind of stuck and he's so different than
I think anybody would.

Speaker 5 (57:37):
Have expected the big star from.

Speaker 9 (57:38):
Two thousand and five to twenty fifteen to be if
you asked them in two thousand and three.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah, especially his character is evolved greatly from the rapper
and some would you know, some people point out, we
love the guy, we love what he does. We think
is characters stale in the current babyface role. And I
remember riding with Jake the Snake in the early nineties
and him telling me that, uh, you know, he'd done
a big angle with Hogan that never aired because after

(58:05):
he laid Hogan out, the chance that Jake Chance or
DDT Chance started and and Vince didn't want any part
of you know, his you know, his his top baby
face being booed or his top heel being cheered. And
I think Vince and WW was really smart in looking
past the booze and seeing the larger picture. I mean,

(58:26):
I'd love to see a scene of heel turned too.
I mean, I would love to think that he has
that some of the same feeling I did inside they
just dying to let out. But within the you know,
the framework of the character. I think the stuff he's done,
especially like you said, the last several months, has been outstanding.
You know. I got I kind of got labeled like

(58:47):
a John Cena fanboy by some people the moment that
I said, I just sitting at my table, you know,
and this is when I was relatively new to social media,
my daughter was there. I don't even think she was
on Twitter yet, and uh, and I put out a
thing and said, wow, great great promo by John Cena.
I think, you know, people should pay more attention to

(59:09):
his legacy of great matches in WWE. And like a
minute later I turned my daughter said I's got seven
hundred like replies and said, what do you what do
you mean?

Speaker 1 (59:17):
Like?

Speaker 3 (59:17):
So I just said, yeah, you know, they were all,
you know, half of them agreeing with me, half of
them vam milli d disagreeing. And I said, well, you know,
try to find a John Seen a pay per view
that hasn't performed, you know, hasn't delivered it. And everyone
pointed to the same match with our truth. And you know,
so I had this conversation going and all of a

(59:38):
sudden I became the John Seena supporter. So I'm going
back years and years to where if you have to
pick apart one specific match, then you've done a really
good job as a main eventor And Seena is you know,
very you know, stoic, you know, in in in public,
you know, pulled me aside and he just looked at
me and said thanks, like that's all he said. That's

(01:00:00):
all he said, and that's all they needed to be said.
And it doesn't matter if he ever says it again,
Like I know that he appreciates it, and that he
can't you know, in his in his vision, he can't
stick up for himself. He'll sound like a baby if
he tries to defend himself against critics. But that was
really nice, you know, I said, you're welcome, and that

(01:00:22):
was the end of the conversation.

Speaker 9 (01:00:24):
Yeah, I think there's a history of top stars in
the industry if we kind of look at the history
of them. And it's so hard with territory systems too,
because you know, different territories are different styles of wrestling,
but it seems like the next big star is never
the same or a copycat or derivative of the previous

(01:00:44):
top star. And you know, like, yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Think in situations where they've tried to duplicate a top star,
you know, you know, when Sergeant Slaughter left WW and
they tim held a corporal cursioner, and when Jimmy Snooka left,
you know, they got c VAFI that like fans see
through that really quickly, and they are in Hogan.

Speaker 9 (01:01:06):
You know, Ben's try to push luger real hard.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Yeah, yeah, and then and it didn't work for him.
So WW was lucky that, you know, they struck Cold
with Stone Cold, and uh, and the odds of finding
someone to fill that role, you know, seemed to be uh,
you know, almost let me try my vocabulary. You might
have to help me here infintesta helping huey uh, ste

(01:01:30):
there you go, there you go. Yeah, And yet they
did it with the Rock. But I mentioned, I think
I mentioned in the first book that with the success
of Stone Cold, all the guys seemed to be wanting
to be stone Cold light in their promos, like if
that was working for him, they were going to do

(01:01:50):
things like that that would work for them. And that's
when I personally, you know, professionally, personally and professionally went
a different direction and lightened up the mankind character and
instead of a guy trying to be stone called, you
had a unique personality in the Rock coming through and uh,
you know, and with Steve's help shining very brightly for WW.

Speaker 10 (01:02:20):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
New Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
Pro wrestling.

Speaker 6 (01:02:27):
We'll drop new episodes as.

Speaker 10 (01:02:28):
Major shows and noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
And I'm Chris Lansdell.

Speaker 11 (01:02:33):
Join us as we cover the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they.

Speaker 6 (01:02:37):
Navigate an era with no lack of talent, but I
really need.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
To create some new stars.

Speaker 6 (01:02:42):
You can stream the new seven Stop podcasts now from
Pro Wrestling Torch.

Speaker 9 (01:02:57):
Let's take a couple of phone calls, a couple of emails,
we'll talk. We'll table two goo the guy for after
a couple of calls because we had some people holding
for a while also, and I'm going to bring in
Brian from Minneapolis, regular color on the show here. Brian,
thanks for holding so long and helping up me out
technically too. With a little email note what you're on
with Mick Foley? Heer on people the tourch live cast.

Speaker 5 (01:03:16):
What have you got for him?

Speaker 12 (01:03:18):
Absolutely way and no need to apologize. It's been a
great conversation.

Speaker 5 (01:03:22):
Thanks.

Speaker 12 (01:03:22):
Maybe the hours fly by. My one question is to
Mick Foley and for me as a fan, it's hard
for me to watch and he doesn't have to answer this.
If he wants to just leave it on the table,
it's fine. But when I watch people like the Rock
or especially for me, triple h I don't even know,
in my opinion, leaching off the legacy of all this

(01:03:42):
stuff they put you through, from the chair shots to
the insane over the top high spots that built your
legend and help make your clear. But I feel like
they didn't have to pay that kind of price, and
they're getting to get a lot of that glory and
you are the one who's paying the ultimate price for that.
And I don't think they pay you enough kudos into that.
I don't see you in the opening montage highlighted and

(01:04:03):
constant stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
I appreciate you thinking that way. I disagree. I think
I get enough. It's probably more than enough. And I
was in the opening montage for like ten years, you
know that's you know, ten years after I was gone
full time, I was still in the opening montage. I
get more. I get more than enough credit. You know,
Rock speaks very kindly of me and interviews and a

(01:04:26):
hunter has you know, made it clearly appreciates what I did.
But it was also my job, you know, like everyone
has a different job. Like the offensive tackle opening up
the holes for a running back is not going to
get as much attention as the running back going through
those holes. So I never saw myself as the like

(01:04:47):
the top guy. It was always understood. I always understood
that I was, you know, playing a role and then
my job was to get guys ready for the next
stat and I accepted it, and I took a lot
of pride in it, and I loved it. And the
fact that people still recognize me, you know, fifteen years

(01:05:09):
after I stopped wrestling full time, is really satisfaction enough.

Speaker 5 (01:05:13):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
I don't bet me wrong. I'd like to be in
the opening montage, you know, personally offended when they didn't
use me a vision of me to build up the
you know, stings return. I was like, That's what I'm
there for, you know, like I always took great pride
in the fact that, you know, Triple H would be
talking about retiring me, like four years after I'd already returned,

(01:05:34):
you know, Like That's what I'm there for.

Speaker 5 (01:05:36):
So I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
I don't mind at all. I think I've been given
more than enough credit by WWE.

Speaker 9 (01:05:41):
And make really, what harm could there We know you're
being honest, because what harm could there be? And saying
really horrible things about how Rock and replete treat you.
It's not like they still have any power in this industry. Yeah,
that's I'll.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Tell you A funny story is when The Rock came
back last year and he made the surprise return with Russev.
You know, my daughter goes, is she had told me
like an hour earlier, Dad, I think I think Rock's
returning and I don't think so. And the reason she
knew is that she'd been snapchatting with The Rock's daughter.

(01:06:15):
So it's oh wow, very cute, you know, Like she'll
get a text and say, and my drough said, what
are you doing? She goes, I'm in the limo. We're
going to the Hercules premiere and then I'll go tell
tell Rock. I said hello, and she'll go. My dad says,
to tell your dad. He says hello. So it's really cute.
And then that that night, somebody had, you know, somebody

(01:06:37):
tweeted out. So I'm like, when are we going to
see your return? And I really wasn't trying to feel
sorry for myself. I mean, you just have to trust
that I wasn't when I said, well, I'm not really
the surprise guy. I'm the panel guy or the backstage
vignette guy. And then two weeks later I got a
call from WW about coming in and doing the promo
with Rollins Andros and the moment I got out there

(01:07:02):
on the you know, the stage, when the music hit,
my first thought was, I guess I was wrong, you know,
like I can be the surprise guy. And that's why
I don't. I don't worry if the phone doesn't ring
for a year, because I feel like they know that
if they need a boost, that you know, I'm a

(01:07:22):
phone call away.

Speaker 5 (01:07:24):
Yeah, absolutely, Brian, thanks for the call. It's always absolutely
Let's let's go.

Speaker 9 (01:07:29):
To an email question. I want to definitely get one
of those are a couple of thosen two Anthony from
Australia says, Mick, welcome to the live cast. Long time coming.
A quick question, Assuming Daniel Brian returns to wrestling in
a WWE ring, which he says, which I'm hoping for
as long as it doesn't put him at any more
risk than any other wrestler, how difficult do you think
it'll be for him to quote tone it down as

(01:07:51):
they say in work like he is already over instead
of trying to get himself over. And this is a
little bit related to something Steve Austin talked about Mick
where he said that Daniel Bryan had that he called Daniel,
but Daniel called him and they had to talk about
what Austin had to do after his neck injury to
change his style because he was already over and he

(01:08:11):
wanted to make money for as long as he could
and be there for the fans as long as he could,
and he had. It was a real mental adjustment for Steve.
And you know Steve so well too, the pride that
he took in wrestling. I mean, I've talked him about
podcasting in the last a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:08:25):
I've been on a show.

Speaker 9 (01:08:26):
And we'll talk just about the techniques and the technology
and all that. The level of like pride he takes
in it and how bad he feels when he has
a bad show where he doesn't get to prepare is
so similar to twenty five years ago as a wrestler.
And he said he had a talk with Brian going,
you got to change your mentality. It's okay to not
just tear the house down and.

Speaker 5 (01:08:44):
Put yourself at risk.

Speaker 9 (01:08:45):
You're already over. Pick your spots, be there for the fans.
And in reading Daniel Bryan's book. I don't know if
you had yet, Mike, I will, I will, but I
need to. It's really good and I read that and
I like, I almost feel like more people who have
been through it to talk to Brian and tell him, seriously, Brian,
you owe it to everybody to slow down and pick

(01:09:07):
your spot. So, yeah, I don't want to hijack the question,
but kind of put it in perspective. Even Steve has
talked about that with Daniel because he went through it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Yeah. I remember seeing Stephen his comeback and thinking he
was doing more than he needed to, even while realizing
that he was toning it down. I remember seeing him
take the three German soup lexis and feeling like, you
don't need to do that. I had to talk with
Brian about his style three years ago when he was

(01:09:34):
just starting to get over on a crazy level, telling
him that now that the audience was there, he didn't
have to feel like he had to do go full
tilt every night, that people were going to be more
than happy with him playing the character and providing really
good matches, like you didn't have to be great every night.

Speaker 5 (01:09:54):
Granted.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
I said the same thing to Punk after watching him
at a house show and he said, if I didn't,
you know, I wouldn't be here, Like it was kind
of what brought him there, was that drive to be
great every night. But I reached out again when I
saw h Daniel or Brian Uh in a match. I
think I was on the watching on DVR while a

(01:10:15):
couple of family members were upstairs, and like I heard
them yelling, and I said, what happened? What happened? I said, man,
Daniel Brian just took a really nasty bump, you know,
Luke Harper match.

Speaker 5 (01:10:25):
I jumped out of my chair when I sad, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
I did too, I swear, I mean that was what
I do. And uh, and I've done that, you know,
that's it before. Especially that's the reaction. You know, the
first time I saw doctor Steve Williams backdrop driver on
a EHS tape, I jumped out of my chair. You know,
when I saw Leta do the the topey where she
nearly broke her neck, like, that was the same reaction

(01:10:48):
I had. And you know, I, you know, I consider
Brie Bella to be a really good friend. And I said,
you know, I reached out to her, and I was
like he doesn't have to do that, And she said,
will you please tell him that? And you know, and
so I tried, you know, tried, and I hope he listens,
you know. I hope he listens if he comes back,

(01:11:10):
and I did, you know, and I reached I reached
out a couple of times, so he knows if he
needs someone to talk to that I'm there. I don't
personally think he's gonna take me up on that. I
honestly don't, you know, like he has his own way
of doing things. I hope some of it sinks in
and because I think he still has a great run

(01:11:31):
in front of him where he doesn't have to tear
that out. You know, he can be the three and
a half star guy. You know, there's nothing wrong with that.
And I think anyone who appreciates and respects wrestling will
accept that and actually be happy for him.

Speaker 5 (01:11:46):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
I know, I really appreciate it when I had people
coming up to me and going, plea, don't please, don't
do that, Like he just enjoy seeing you out there,
Like we'd rather have you around, you know, then not
have you at all. We rather have you around having
fun and good matches than not around it all trying well.

Speaker 9 (01:12:06):
I mean Mazzawa what you know, think about what he
gave to the industry and to die in a match
in the ring from you know, a cervical spinal cord
in a spinal cord injury that seems to have been
tied to wear and tear and a really hard, strong style.
I mean, it's not going to happen to thankfully, it's
not going to happen to very many people as anybody else,

(01:12:27):
but it accentuates and underlines why I think like the
community needs to come together and talk to people who
are at this pivot point in their careers and and
everybody needs to learn from history, including the fans, you know,
and and accept and embrace that somebody in their mid
thirties who's put in the years and the bumps that
Brian has can go out there and I don't mean

(01:12:48):
phone it in, have passion, have charisma, have signature moves
and still sell. But just pick your spots carefully. There's
there's one hundred moves people pay to see Daniel Bryan do,
but he can only do twenty. Are the twenty safest ones?

Speaker 5 (01:13:01):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
Yeah, and you know do you get you know, stop
dropping that headbot off the top rope with my first
suggestion to him, this is in you know, your fans,
you know, are verly you know, we talk about not
exposing k Fabe in general, but it's a great given
that your audience knows, you know, the inner workings of wrestling, right,

(01:13:23):
And so I don't think I'm gonna, you know, shatter
any illusions when I go back to nineteen ninety six
and talk about my house show run with Shawn Michaels,
and Sean was really banged up and he was the
top guy, and I would make it a point of
pride to not give him a single bump.

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
And I mean, that's great. We could do it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
And you know, for the for the for the real
diehard fan, they look at and go, those Shawn Michaels
mages aren't up to the standards he set on paper
view and maybe they weren't, but they were good matches,
you know, and they were they were in the three
and a half star range, and we had great crowd
responses and I was keeping uh, you know, I was

(01:14:06):
keeping the w's top investment safe and I took a
lot of pride in that. And I know, guys, you know,
even on TV where everything's high definition and uh and
and close ups, that there were guys who can work,
who were good enough to work that style, you know,
and old timers who would be glad to drop by

(01:14:26):
and offer suggestions to Brian to see him continue. Like
I said, I think he's got an amazing streak left
in him, and I think there are you know, heels
good enough and understanding enough to you know, to to
to do to do those type of matches without you know,
without permanently disabling a guy who is you know, worked

(01:14:48):
so hard.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next
level with a VP membership. Get shows like this, the
Weaight Keller Prossing Podcast, Weight Keller Prossing Post Show, and
the Poweorch daily casts on our pw Torch VIP podcast
feed with ads and plugs removed from the shows for
a streamlined listening experience. And also hear the VIP exclusive
shows that I host with Rich Fan and Todd Martin,

(01:15:12):
Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin
signature VIP series that you're missing out without a VIP membership,
So go VIP here. In twenty twenty two, and enjoy
all the benefits, all the bonus content and the ad
free listening experience pwtorch dot com, slash go VIP.

Speaker 9 (01:15:30):
And I think something that I'm old enough now where
now I start talking like the stage who's seen so much,
but I haven't through a lot of three decades of
you know, close three decades of you know, watch following
wrestling from the perspective of kind of stepping back from
being the fan who got a ticket insured wildly to
one who just wants to study why do things happen?
Why do things work the way they do? And studying

(01:15:54):
What was so scarce back in the late eighties and
early nineties were four star matches. It was like a
big deal when Flar and Steamboat in Chicago had a
four and a quarter star match. And now in the
last seven days, people on television, just watching on television
or computer have probably had access to aid four star matches,
you know, things to g one especially, but like I mean,

(01:16:16):
there's really good three and a half four star matches regularly.
So to me, the bar has switched from thank god,
there's people with the work ethic of Flar and Steamboat
setting the bar and now I'm sort of like, let's
lower the bar on work rate and sacrifice, and let's
put up a premium on getting the proper crowd response.
The efficiency of somebody like you said, having a three

(01:16:37):
and n st star match with minimal bumps, saving yourself
physically but still getting the crowd to lose themselves and
cheering for a face and boo the heel. To me,
that's the high level of art, not getting as this
is awesome chant because you just flipped dove and now
nobody's selling it thirty seconds later.

Speaker 3 (01:16:53):
Yeah, say, I think you're exactly right. I hope they
find that balance. I think when WA went into the
PG era, it seemed like a safer alternative, I think,
but the extremes that guys have gone to within the
PG parameters to have great matches has really taken a
toll on.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
Bodies.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
So in some ways, you know, the stuff we see
today that allows people to have the four and four
and a half star matches is much more difficult physically
than the stuff I was doing in ECW in Japan.
You know, it's strange that may seem like that was
when I was actually my healthiest, Like I had a
lot of stitches and I had some burns, but like

(01:17:35):
I believe it or not, like I could do seventy
five push ups in nineteen ninety five and being able
to do two hundred hindus seemed like a lot to
me at the time. And then I met one of
the Japanese young girls who does eight hundred daily. So
I wasn't as good as day as I thought, but
I was able to like kind of heal up actually
by doing you know, by using some of the hardcore

(01:17:58):
options like the cheese greater.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:18:00):
It's yeah, I grew up.

Speaker 9 (01:18:03):
I grew up watching Mad Dog with shot as a kid,
cheering him wildly in the death match against Jerry Jerry
Blackwell because I thought that somebody who's gonna leave in
a casket. I didn't know any better, and I was
cheering wildly for mad Dog to be the one who lived.
And his offense was I rake, since scraping a guy
is scraping Jerry's face against the top.

Speaker 5 (01:18:19):
Rope, and it's all I needed.

Speaker 9 (01:18:21):
I mean, I would he because his character was so
believable and authentic and Crusher Blackwell was such a horrible,
awful villain, and I mean, it's just it works. So no, totally,
like I I'm I'm like all for efficiency. We have
just an abundance of great athletes doing high spots, and
now I want those high spots to mean something because, truthfully, too, Mike,
we've seen in your experience it every day, the price

(01:18:43):
that was paid for the can you top this mentality
that was almost in rebellion from the lazy laziness the
wrong word, but the conservative approach that kind of took over.

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
In the eighties.

Speaker 9 (01:18:54):
I think that we've seen the price. We've learned those lessons,
and it's kind of like, all right, let's pick our
spots now, let's make them count when we do them,
because we know a price is paid.

Speaker 3 (01:19:04):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you, And I find myself
defending the current product to like guys who'll come up
well meaning fans and go ahead, and wrestling is nothing
like it was, you know when you were out there,
like that was the real stuff. And then I'll have
to go to bat for the current guys and how
hard they're working, and you know how much more difficult
it is, you know since the Monday Night Wars when

(01:19:26):
people came to take you started taking good matches for granted.

Speaker 9 (01:19:30):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean you had to search so hard.
I mean, again, I'm sounding old, but you had to start.
It's like talking about porn when you were, you knowing the.

Speaker 5 (01:19:38):
Pre Internet era.

Speaker 9 (01:19:39):
It's like you had to search so hard to find
what you liked been a previous era, and now it's
so readily available. I don't think anybody anybody who complains.
I'm like, you can watch Luca Underground or NXT on
your computer, and New Japan has a subscription service. You
don't have to wait six weeks for a grainy PCR.
You get to watch four star matches on Raw or
three and a half stars on a regular basis. It's

(01:19:59):
just yeah, it's crazy good in certain ways, but also
frustrating in other ways. And I mean that's it's always
going to be like that. By the way, our emailer,
Anthony from Australia said, ps, it was great my son
and I got to meet the three phases of fully
sixth if you count Noel in San Jose at Russell Khan.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
That yeah, that was that was that was fun to
be able to.

Speaker 8 (01:20:21):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
You know, I'm like, you're when your daughter's twenty one
and she still likes hanging out with you. Uh and
in that in that case, we we actually you know,
made money together the first time we've ever the only
time we've ever done that. It was great and uh
so tell him thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:20:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 9 (01:20:40):
Let's go to an international call here. I believe it's Craig.
If you really wanted to get on to ask you
a question.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
Oh no, Michael, I'm sorry, Michael from Canada. Go ahead,
Michael with your question for Mick. Fully, thanks for early ones.

Speaker 13 (01:20:53):
Hey it's Mike from Canada.

Speaker 5 (01:20:54):
How he's doing Hey, Mike, how are you doing good?

Speaker 13 (01:20:58):
I just wanted to say, first, it's the first time
I've got to talk to you. Wait, since I've been
listening to the show. So I wanted to congratulate you
on your induction a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 5 (01:21:06):
Oh, thank you, yeah, the Waterloo.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
Yeahratulation yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:21:12):
I forgot to tell you why I require all together
call me hall of famer, waite teller and every reference.

Speaker 5 (01:21:18):
Go ahead, Mike, Okay.

Speaker 13 (01:21:20):
Also, i'd just like to say it's a real privilege
to speak with you, Mick, and I just like to
just say thank you for your contributions to what w
TOW is today because if you didn't do what you did,
it wouldn't be where in the place it is now.
So thank you for that.

Speaker 3 (01:21:34):
Well, I appreciate that. Thanks.

Speaker 13 (01:21:37):
Okay, and I just had a couple just a couple
uh little questions. It's nothing big. I just wanted to
get both your opinions on what you think the Summertime
Carter shaping up to be as of right now.

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
Yeah. Well, I think once you got like that super match,
you know with Lesnar and Undertaker and uh your position
where it's just understood that the time will match his
secondary that, you know, you get the makings for a
special event. I love the fact that the women are
going to get a chance to shine in the UH
in their in their match with the nine women involved,

(01:22:11):
and I think the undercard's filling out nicely.

Speaker 9 (01:22:15):
Yeah, you know, I may we have limited time with
these I'm not going to give my you know, eight
minute dissertation on summer clim although, by the way, I
want to note I'll probably be hosting tomorrow's show. Uh
Bruce will be out of town and Travis is out
of country, So anybody wants to give me a call tomorrow,
I may or may not bring a guest on I
might do a solo show for an hour tomorrow, but
we can talk SummerSlam at length tomorrow. I think that

(01:22:35):
Undertaker and uh in brock Lesnar is a really intriguing
MATCHMK when you kind of try to look.

Speaker 5 (01:22:42):
At what is what are they going to do?

Speaker 9 (01:22:44):
You know what, match quality wise is intriguing, but the
finish is really intriguing to me. I mean it just
it changes the course of drastically how Undertaker or brock
Lesnar go forward because either of them losing feels so
monumental within the journey their characters are on.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Yeah, I agree, and it's one of those matches as
a fan that you feel like you you have to see.
And I when I was on a couple of things
three years ago, three Octobers ago with Punk in the Ring,
I talked about fans, you know, they don't they don't
they don't remember statistics, they remember moments, and I think, uh,

(01:23:20):
you know, Undertaker and Lesnard gave us and A and
a cast of dozens including you know, very Adam and
Bo Dallas. Uh. You know in breaking up that the
Great I just had a great meme where you know,
they just kept getting closer in on him and this
is why won't you believe? And uh it was it
made me laugh. But they created one of those moments

(01:23:42):
there where they kind of created the pull up part
that all future pull up arts will be judged by.
And hopefully they can create another one of those moments,
uh for us at at SummerSlam. And I don't know
where they go, you know, with the ending, but I'm
sure that there's some great minds working on something that

(01:24:02):
we can remember for a while.

Speaker 9 (01:24:05):
Do you anticipate you'll be part of us Manya thirty
one in some capacity or are you hoping or you
just don't want to comment because what will.

Speaker 5 (01:24:11):
Be will be.

Speaker 3 (01:24:12):
No, I don't anticipate it. I'm I'm not holding I'm
not holding my breath. I mean, you never know. Like
I said, I would rather, honestly, I'd rather play a
big part in a raw than you know, being a
vignette backstage at Mania. So like I never did count

(01:24:33):
successes based on you know, Mania's Like I joked during
my special that Shawn Michaels may have been missed WrestleMania,
but I was mister in your house. I never had thanks,
Like I never let the situation determine the importance. And
I go back to days when you know, i'd be
with Shane Douglas in PoCA, West Virginia in front of

(01:24:54):
literally twenty six people, thinking I had to put on
the performance of a lifetime. So uh, yeah, I don't.
I don't know. If I'll be a part of it.
I'd be happy to, but I won't be disappointed if
I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:25:07):
Well.

Speaker 9 (01:25:07):
The Patriot Dell Wills was a great guest on his
program a couple months back, and I make I don't
want to. I don't want to be too insulting here,
but I always considered the Patriot mystery in your House.

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):
That may bring me us both back out of retirement.

Speaker 9 (01:25:23):
All right, Yeah, and I you know, I say it
totally as a joke, but like I think about his
title shot against Brett, I'm like a throwaway in your house,
you know quote throway in your House wasn't like well,
it's like that's what in your House was for, Like
you know, the one off title matches for a guy
and all that, and it's just you know, in your
House thing did last very long. But yeah, when I
think of in your House, I always think of that
but so I'm joking, but sort of like that's why
I chose him, because I always think about, what do

(01:25:45):
you have been on pay per view in a title match?
If not for the in your house concept?

Speaker 3 (01:25:48):
Probably not, But then again, neither would I. You know,
I got my biggest breaks on in your house matches
and try to do and I did make the most
of them.

Speaker 11 (01:26:01):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwtorch dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts, we go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:26:22):
about where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare
what's taking place now to what took place. Then you
can hear this along with other shows as part of
your PW Sorts VIP membership with exclusive podcasts just for
members compatible with the Apple podcast app. Visit pwtorch dot
com slash go vip for details and sign up.

Speaker 9 (01:26:41):
Form as you're talking to Todd Martin on Fixed with
Todd Martin the vipat to show about seam punkin if
you would have gotten a break if not for CW.
You know Paul Hayman going, this is my guy. I
want him. You know, Option A and option B are
out for whatever reason. Let me push this punk guid.
It's like whatever you know, yeah, yeah, okay, Just a

(01:27:04):
couple couple quick things. One somebody said the question we
alread addressed on Daniel Bryan. But he did have a
fun story short when he goes it was great seeing
your your stand up on two occasions in Winstor, Ontario, Canada.
I don't think I'll ever be able to forget you.
Mick dressed as Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, he.

Speaker 3 (01:27:22):
Said, I said, sometimes things look good on paper. I
tried this thing out, basically Dorothy cutting a promo on
the Good Witch for not letting her know that she
could have returned back to Kansas at anytime.

Speaker 5 (01:27:40):
And my daughter.

Speaker 3 (01:27:41):
Kept asking me, like, Dad, when are you gonna do
that again? You know, it was like she tapped her
heels once or twice. I went, wait a second, and
then I didn't have anything written down. I went and
I did a promo off the top of my head,
and I didn't think it was particularly good, but I
didn't think mister Soko was particularly good till Austin told
me it was one of the funniest things he'd ever seen.

(01:28:02):
And then the next day there were you know, signs
and chants going on and it changed the course of
my career. But based on my daughter's reaction to something
I did four years earlier, actually had a dress made
to fit me, like at a dress bade and I
did the routine with Jason Sensation, you know, and it

(01:28:24):
just didn't it didn't work.

Speaker 4 (01:28:25):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:28:26):
We were laughing about it on the trip. You know,
this is going to be great, you know, and it
was like, you know, it was Dorothy talking to the
stone cold and saying, well, do you you know, do
you like do you like junk food? Hell? I did
a couple of hoes now and then and do you
like you know, watching wrestling a Monday night Raw is
my favorite show? And then we went into something Ho

(01:28:50):
ho Ho and a couple of Monday raws. That's how
we spend the day away in the very old Land
of Oz and me cutting the promo and as I
was doing it, I realized, this is not working. I
will never I will never do it again. And so
I did have the dress made with the hopes of
having a great news story that would tie in wrestling
with with you know, an iconic movie, and it just

(01:29:12):
didn't didn't work. It might if I worked hard enough
on it, but I made myself a vow that I
would never do as the Darcy bit again.

Speaker 5 (01:29:21):
Well. J C from Ontario is one of the lucky ones.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
But you never know. That's one that you never know
unless you try, you.

Speaker 5 (01:29:27):
Know, And that's the course.

Speaker 9 (01:29:28):
Yeah, you know you want to take that, Yeah, he adds,
I've been a huge fan for decades. Meke, thank you
for all the great moments in the ring. You're passion
for the business and respect for those supporting you.

Speaker 5 (01:29:38):
So nice. Thank you from a fan.

Speaker 9 (01:29:42):
Let's uh, hopefully we can have you back on Mick
one of these weeks, months, years, because I've enjoyed the
heck out of this and there's so much I want
to get to but I'm not putting on the spot
about that. I want to talk about your goods in
the Gayo and wrap up with that. Because Japanese wrestling itself.
I mean, when people look at you as a pioneer,
you were, but I know you were influen by the

(01:30:02):
things you did in the United States to a great degree,
were launched as ideas that you saw in Japan in
some cases, and talk about that connection and getting to
be around Chagusa.

Speaker 3 (01:30:12):
Yeah, you know, I was. This goes back to I
started in eighty five, and it was probably early nineteen
eighty six when Ikiss, maybe mid eighty six when I
started having some pretty good matches with Shane Douglas, but
my punches were weak. And it was Brian Hildebrand, who

(01:30:33):
you know a lot of fans remember as referee. Mark
Curtis for w CW was one of my dearest friends
in wrestling, and he was a huge student of the business,
and he wanted me to watch a match with Bruser
Brody and Terry Funk to see, how, you know, to
see how their punches were thrown. And on that one

(01:30:53):
VHS he had not only the Brody Funk match, which
I loved, you know, and I instantly became a fan
of both Brody and Funks, but also like Carl Gotch
in his like late sixties doing a very technical match
and probably most importantly dyed in my kid and Tiger mask.
You know, there was just so much on that one tape.

(01:31:15):
I just dove kind of headlong into Japanese wrestling, and
and you know, really couldn't believe the things they were doing,
especially the women. And I think part of the reason,
like I haven't previously given more credit to the women,
and this is just me making an assessment, you know,
years later, I think I actually may have been like
threatened by what the women were doing, because I really

(01:31:39):
was confident in my character and I felt like a
unique perspective and that things I did were different kind
of groundbreaking. And then I would hear about like what
Minami Toyota was doing, and I would think, I can't
drop kick at all, let alone drop kick off the
top rope, like I couldn't, you know. I was just
kind of in awe of what the women were able
to do and the emotion they showed. And in some ways,

(01:32:01):
I think I connected as much with the women as
I did with the men, maybe because in the Japanese culture,
like you know, really, you know, male wrestling was like
keeping an order with like the warrior code, and I
think the women felt freer to express emotion, and I
think I was drawn to that. And Chegosa was someone

(01:32:22):
who had that, you know, the charisma and and and
just brought you in and had a way of making
you believe and care about her. And so when I
had a chance to, you know, when I saw a
message about Tuff Patrick doing the show in Queen's hit

(01:32:43):
the link. In the second I saw che Goose's face,
I was like, I need to go to that show.
Like I had no idea I would ever see her again,
let alone see her wrestle. And I got to do
both and was really you know, it's really rewarding for
me not only to go, but to be asked to
go into the uh the ring after the main event,
and you know, she gave me a big hugins you know,

(01:33:04):
del Mar Ragotto, you know, like it's really nice. That's
somebody that I held in such high esteem, you know,
thought so highly of me as well.

Speaker 5 (01:33:13):
That's very cool. That's very cool.

Speaker 9 (01:33:15):
Make you stayed well beyond the time that that we
agree to. I very much thank you for that. I
thoroughly enjoyed this talk. I respect, I respect the journey
that you've been on. So much, and the fact that
we've kind of paralleled each other from a time standpoint
and following the industry, UH changed the way we have
from such different places. And your contributions and the places

(01:33:35):
you've gone and the things you've done are you know,
going to be remembered as very influential. And and you know,
the emails I got and I didn't even get to
scratch the surface on them, much less phone calls indicate
very much appreciated for all time, you know, and so
but even more so, there's a lot of people contribute
to this industry who can't be as good of a guest,

(01:33:59):
that a thoughtful of as as as you were today.
And I knew you would be based on those early
torch talks and we didn't even get to the monsters
in the Adams family.

Speaker 5 (01:34:09):
Did back then.

Speaker 9 (01:34:09):
So thank you for coming on the show, thanks for
spending more time with us, Thanks for the technical difficulties earlier,
and hopefully we can do it again down the road,
and best of luck to you and closing words from
you if you have.

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
Any Yeah, let's let's do it again. I really enjoyed it.
I'm glad I did it, and UH, and I appreciate
you guys, you know, creating awareness not only from you know,
the stuff I do professionally, but some of the causes
that I support. And I'll go on record and I'll say,
let's do it again when I do the rain Raffle

(01:34:43):
before WrestleMania, we can talk about Mania, create some awareness
and talk about the old days again.

Speaker 9 (01:34:49):
But that's fantastic, No, that's I mean, you've seen the
same wrestle, so much of the same wrestling I have,
but through a different lens, and so you know it.
I get excited to ask you questions because I respect
your opinions on so much and you're a student of
the game who still follows it and I think appreciates
a lot of the lot of the same things. It
gets frustrated by a lot of the same things. So
your insights are great.

Speaker 5 (01:35:08):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:35:09):
Thank you for having me, Wade.

Speaker 5 (01:35:10):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 9 (01:35:11):
Absolutely, And I just want to apologize to the callers
we didn't get to I'm sorry. I just had too
much to say after twelve years, too many questions to ask,
so I kind of hoarded the hoard of the questions.
But in same with the emails we got a couple in,
a couple of emails and a couple of questions callers,
and I thank those of you for your support and
your patience. If you're on hold and like mix set,

(01:35:31):
you'll be back on the show down the line, and
I look forward to that until next time on behalf
of Mick Foley and all our callers. Wait Teller signing off.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW toorch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at pw torch and follow me at the Wadekeller.
That's at PW torch and at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 6 (01:36:16):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus The Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, Downcast, and all

(01:36:38):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:36:47):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pw torch dot com daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's pw torch dot com.

Speaker 14 (01:37:11):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at pterbow Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(01:37:31):
for wrestlings past and the paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian Thunderliger and our eye
was there when shows where our guests will join me
to talk about a classic bout that they were in
attendance for. We love variety and you can expect lots
of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pw Torch VIP

(01:37:54):
subscription information and a list of all the VIP benefits
is available at pww torch vip info dot com. And yes,
all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on
iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream them directly
from our ad free VIP mobile site. See you in
the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (01:38:14):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weight Keller Prosing
podcast and Weight Keller Prosing post show and give us
a five star rating. We hope you think we've earned
that score with our fast turnaround times and our quantity
and quality of wrestling analysis throughout the week. So take

(01:38:36):
a moment out for us and do us favor and
give us a five star rating and Apple Podcasts. That
helps us on search returns and helps us grow. And
if you want, you can add a few comments about
what you like about the programs in the comments section.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 10 (01:38:52):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 4 (01:39:07):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (01:39:21):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
free access to these shows and a ton of other
VIP exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain
access to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our
contemporaneous week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly
newsletters dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with
streaming and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows
from the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with

(01:39:43):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast
library dating back to the year two thousand and three.
There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
that that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now
approaching twenty years of podcasting, go va IP and dive
into our post pay per view roundtables are covered with
some of your favorite eras of wrestling, top name long

(01:40:06):
form interviews, and special format podcasts that we've done throughout
the years. Pw torch dot com slash go VIP. We
have a streamline sign up for me and you can
pay with PayPal or directly with your credit card or
debit card. In one or two minutes from right now,
you can be a VIP member and diving into our library.
Pw torch dot com slash go VIP

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Mick Foley talks WWE, wrestling stories, live callers, emails

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

INTERVIEW CLASSIC (10 YRS AGO): Mick Foley talks WWE, wrestling stories, live callers, emails

Stuff You Should Know