NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Fann discuss Seth and Ibushi injuries and is it time to reign in dangerous style, Breakker spear, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Rich seth Rawlins seems to be down with a legit
shoulder injury. Of course asterisk because that baked his last injury,
lied to his colleagues about it, deceived them about it,
and so you know it just we put the asterisk
out there. Maybe there's some reason there doing that again,
but seems legit to me. Just the signs seemed to

(01:42):
be there. But I thought that last time too, So
what do I know?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:45):
But let's go with the idea that that you know,
he is seeing us, he is seeing someone about his injury.
He doesn't know how long he'll be out yet, does
he need surgery? Well, heal? So it's it feels like
it might be that open ended in real life. So
we'll talk about it that way, but if needs And
by the way, last night on Raw did not look
like somebody who was resigned to relinquishing his world title.

(02:07):
But it didn't seem like someone who you could rule
that out either, you know, like it felt like a
holding pattern. Let's do this angle, and I think we'll
no more either of fourd leaks, but even more so
as time goes on, is this part of what feels
like a story arc that maybe it was shifted by
a few weeks here or there. Either way, well, a

(02:29):
few weeks earlier than it would have been perhaps, but
that this is the execution of what they've had in
mind even leading up to the hype going into the
match with Cody, which is, you know, Hayman is using
SETH and breaker and Reed are one loss away from
abandoning him. So the spear by bron breaker is something
that probably at some point was planned, if not last night,

(02:49):
sometime relatively soon. So there's a lot of things I
want to talk about here and get more into than
I was even able to on the Raw poschal last night,
And I guess one of them is if he has
if he's too injured to wrestle, then who should be involved?
What is the setup for getting a new champion? Is

(03:12):
it a tournament, a four way triple threat to top contenders,
something else I'm not bringing up, and who's in it?

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Rich Well, I think given the way things have played
out and the fact that he evoked this on Raw,
the best to me, the best case scenario is he's
healthy enough to wrestle and not injured enough to re
injure anything, and he loses to see him punk, much
like Cody did to him with the torn peck. So

(03:39):
that way when he returns, he's a babyface, he has
the sympathy, and then that could even lead to a
comment from Punk. He gained his respect in that moment
and kind of go from there.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
My take on Seth last night is he had never
been more insufferable and arrogant, and I was sympathetic with
bron Breaker spearing him. I don't know that wasn't what
they were going for, but I don't think it was.
But you're watching bron Breaker and bron stood reading and
paul him to do agree. Look at Seth in his
own world, you are graced by my presence, and you
know he threw a couple like, you know, gracious comments

(04:16):
towards them. But it sort of felt like, let me
pat you on the head, let me patronize you with
my greatness, to endorse that you someday may taste the
greatness that I am now tasting. And if the goal
was to turn baby face based on an angle they
knew they were going to do at the end of
the show, I'm still trying to wrap my head around
how that sets us up for him being likable. But

(04:39):
did you read it differently or do you think people
write it differently than I did.

Speaker 3 (04:42):
I think some folks could readly it seemed a lot
about the going back, the drinking, the the jericho before
he had the Festival of friendship, whereas like I'm giving
you the gift of Jericho. It was a lot of
those vibes in terms of what he was doing. So
I'm definitely with you there. I also think that the
way he presented himself, he was trying to be conciliatory

(05:07):
to the rest of the group while also of course
up rifting himself. But it really was that promo at
the beginning of raw was a giant hand across the brow. Ooh, glad,
you guys didn't have to hurt me. And that's how
I took it. And you know, as one of the
listeners mentioned to me on Blue Sky, and a lot
of European sports or actually you know, we get some

(05:29):
every now and again. In American sports, you get the
vote of confidence from the owner for a coach, and
then that's usually days before they fire them. And so
I think it was the same thing here where they
kind of gave him the vote of confidence after that
Crown Jewel match, and by the end of the night
it was thumbs downtime, Allah Batista.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Now, there's plenty of time to tell to explain this,
and I don't have one hundred percent faith that will happen.
It hasn't been consistently the case in w storytelling over
the past couple of years where we get full explanations
for people's actions. But I'm leaning towards we're gonna get
some sort of explanation and so and and I think
there's a lot to delve into here if you're Paul

(06:13):
Hayman and Bronson Red and Bronson read to a agree.
But bron Breaker, especially when did bron Breaker decide to
do that? Was it on the spot? Because they have
established for a month or so, he snaps he's impulsive,
and Bronson read's been the one holding him back. So
I think they can tell the story that bron Breaker

(06:34):
just had enough of this guy, you know, just he
had enough of this guy and just go. But I
want to hear his story and how does he frame
it in a way where it doesn't come across as
if Broun. We don't want bron Breaker to explain why

(06:57):
he did what he did to Seth and it resonates
with people going, yeah, Yeah, he is that annoying. Yeah,
I can't imagine how did you stand being around him
so long? And and Seth has been effective at building
that up. He has been insufferable. You know. Is his
opening line or one of his opening lines is you
know the greatness that I have assembled. I want to
acknowledge the greatness of standing before me in this ring,

(07:18):
the greatness that I have assembled. So he's always self
aggrandizing himself before even giving out compliments. I took you
in and with my vision we have solidified you. As
he goun to speed to go Paul Hayman speaking of Hayman.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
So.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
To me, I just I don't. I'm trying to fathom
what the bron Breaker promo is that makes him heal
and Seth baby face rich when when he explains his actions.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
I think it's going to be more of the final
image we saw after they did the Levech special of
role credits. Oh, by the way, we're still going to
keep going the look of terror on Paul Hayman's face
as he raised both bronze arms in the air. And honestly,
I want them to stick Broun Breaker in the same

(08:06):
category of his uncle and his dad in the Steiner language,
because that was the most scott or Rick Steiner's statement
after he looked Bronson read in the face, you're either
with me or you're not. That's it. He didn't say
anything pithy, nothing, and he looked he was like, I'm
with you. You know, someone else could have had something

(08:28):
where it was like a very nice turn of phrase.
No Steiner languages, you're with me or you're dead. And
the that is and I think with the first promo
establishing without Hayman making it cool, without Bronson Reid saying
something that's pithy, just be to the point he was weak.

(08:51):
We crush weakness.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
What happened? So when when did bron Breaker decide to
do that in the scenario you're laying out, because that's
my question is, oh, how does he come across as
a heel.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
In that moment. That's because that ties into the way
he was prior to joining the Vision, where you had
a general manager that could not control him because he
would do so many things impulsively. He would get suspended
every two months.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
But before Breaker speared him. Yeah, Seth came to the
ring after Punk earned a world title shot and he
came out the rest of the vision, and a Breaker
goes after Jay. Breaker goes after night and spears him,
and then they set up. Seth enters a ring and
watches us Reid hits a tsunami, and then Breaker spears

(09:42):
says set didn't do anything.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
Oh, he didn't have to. I think after that second
third spear, the promo is going to be. I realized,
why do I need to go? Why don't I just
cut out the middleman? I'm doing all this work for
somebody when I can be the guy.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
And does that make him heal or a face or
it doesn't matter? Well, Paula back, he doesn't think that matters.

Speaker 3 (10:02):
I don't think Levek thinks that matters. I think it's
clear even from his NXT days, they've posited bron Breaker
as similar to brock Lessner, a force in nature. You
cheer him, you boom, you do whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Our fans supposed to believe. Do you think that that
Seth was wronged by what Breaker did or that Seth
had a coming, because that's key. I mean, what if
we're just got muddled angles where there's no clear cut
there's no clear cut reason to feel one way or
the other about anybody, You're gonna have continued ambivllince and
drops in attendance and drops in TV ratings. I mean,

(10:35):
it's just you've got to have the whole goal of
wrestling is to pull in emotion and have people in
ideally in unison react a certain way because of the
way that you're telling that story. And I'm again, I'm like,
I assume that will happen. I'm not assuming the worst
and that they're going to be like, well, Bron Breaker
is a tween or he he's a badass and you
can feel about them how you want. I mean, that

(10:56):
just leads to ambivalence, and I think that's been one
of the big problems that that we've seen this year. So, yeah,
what do you think.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think in the case of set, they're gonna want
him to come back at the baby face, so they're
gonna make it seem like seth they made he's he
made it. He made it slip or let it slip.
In the early promo where he said he beat Cody
Rhodes with one arm. I think he's gonna show he's
hurt and they're gonna make sure Bron makes them extra
hurt and go from there.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, so as we look ahead, Bronson Reid is going
to be the loyal soldier for now and and he
because he's been the one who's been kind of managing
Breakers intensity, but he's also been dishing out tsunamis and
he's been a vicious heel and his credibility has been

(11:50):
built up over time. Like if we get if we
sort of step back and look at the booking instead
of the storyline, I mean, if the if this has
gone as planned the idea could have been from the beginning,
Seth is going to feel like he's on an island
on to himself, even as part of this faction. He
is going to make it too much about himself. He
is going to not acknowledge Paul Haman as much as
maybe is owed him up until like that, Paige, I

(12:13):
would say, over the top patronizing promo, but I am
so great, But but you were the goat Paul Hayman,
and you know the kiss, the kiss and then the
breaking character which is stupid to do a kiss, And
I just I thought that took I think a lot
of things away from that segment. And so is Bronson
red you see being set up to be the guy

(12:33):
who turns baby face on Breaker. If they lean Breaker
towards a heel who mainly faces baby faces, I don't
or or do you think there's a chance Breaker is
a badass managed by Hayman and they just go back
to Hayman being cheered and let Breaker be Breaker, and
they mostly match Breaker against heels.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
Okay, so I'm gonna cheat a little bit based on
what you're saying. I think they can do a little
column see, which is Hayman has a menagerie of folks
like Brock. He advises and manages well. For the most part,
they don't work together, with the exception of the Brons,
and that allows Breaker to develop in his own way

(13:13):
without being overshadowed by Brock. Brock to be this force
of nature. Whenever he shows up, He's still has Hayman
to have fun and talk for him, and Bronson read
to get the rub off of all of this and
set himself up because I think for him, Bronson reads
the easiest person in this triad to explain why he
made the decision, because he made the same decision when

(13:34):
he joined the Vision. I tried to hurt seth Rollins
to make a name for himself. He recruited me because
I made a name for myself, and now I'm leaving
because this guy is going to help me make a
bigger name for myself through crushing Seth Rowlinson whomever else
we go after. So I think it's he's a mercenary.
He wants to make a name. Bronson is fine Braun.

(13:57):
His modus operandi is chaos and someone being, much like
with Jeff Jarrett with Scott Steiner in the late stages
of the nWo, being that person to keep him under
control before he blows up. Like you said, Bronson is
kind of like the governor in the golf cart that
prevents him from going sixty on the golf course. Well,
Bronson is gonna be the guy now that maybe ams

(14:19):
him up in a way and lets Braun go to
sixty a little bit more because there isn't the seth
Rawlins and how chill you can't outshine me or whatever
they say is the excuse in the in their review mirror,
so to speak.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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(14:58):
com slash PW torchv and you can also upgrade to
other tears and receive even more benefits through Patreon. I
want to move to Paul Hayman, but quick follow up
on Bronson. Read first, do you think in nine months
after WrestleMania he is a bigger star than he is
right now?

Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, okay, Paul Hayman.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
He reacted with shock and then Michael Cole stepped right on.
I thought one of the most important moments of that
at the very end where he was signing off the show,
when Paul Hayman made the very big decision to decide
with bron and Bronson and raise their arms went up.
Until then, they were kind of milking the moment. I'm
not sure how that got messed up. It didn't feel
like the crescendo, which should have been based on the commentary,

(15:42):
but Hayman played it as if he did not know
this is going to happen and he wasn't sure how
he felt about it. You know, Breaker walked up, Hayman
had a few intense words with him, and he grabbed
his lapels and then at that point that's when Hayman
raised the hands of Breaker and read, so where has
Paul Hayman been on this? And and you know, talk

(16:04):
about the formation of the vision, his decision to go
with Seth initially and align with him, and the journey
that they've been on. As we look backwards from Monday
night and and the big happening, where where where was
his mindset? And we know he was he was there
was an exposition of his mindset in a way that

(16:25):
we don't always get going into Crown Jewel, but we
didn't get his Thankfully, we didn't have thought bubbles or
internal monologues airing like with Bailey Sore. We only at
this point can read into what Hayman was thinking when
all this was going on. So are we to believe
that this was a surprise to Hayman and it took
some words from Breaker to side with them, And is
he full fledged solid with them or are we supposed

(16:46):
to be left thinking Breaker threatened him. He wasn't up,
he wasn't sure how he felt about this, and he
might have some second thoughts afterwards.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
I think. And I'm in the background, I'm kind of
playing it. Paul is going, there's a there's a part
after the tsunami where Paul is backing up and and
and just putting his hand over Seth and saying no, no, no, no,
no no. And then that's when you mentioned lapel grab
and he has the look a tear on his face

(17:17):
and again he says, are you with me or you're not?
And he grabs the title and lifts it, and Hayman
is just not since Pentagon Junior, has I seen have
I seen someone do the leg cross step over so smoothly?

Speaker 2 (17:35):
And then he.

Speaker 3 (17:36):
Grabs their wrists and he's looking down at Seth with rage,
and the angle is not the most flattering for Paul.
I mean, that's pretty topical if they gave up came
from above, but that.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
That's pretty topical with the Time magazine cover with our
with our.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Oh yeah yeah that too, like well, I mean, if
you got the Turkey thing, you can't really had that.
And if you want one of those like AI generated
posters like your buddy in Russia has of you on
a horse, God bless. That's we're not quite there yet.
He looks, and it's not as bad as when the
New bloodline had him held the hostage, but he is.

(18:18):
He's blinket twice to say help, and he has no
one because ultimately, if I can continue my Roman Reigns analogy,
I've always said were Roman is the toxic boyfriend of
the WWE. Paul Hayman was in a rebound relationship and
it went south quicker than he expected. Yeah, and so

(18:39):
that's it. He's burned every bridge. He no longer has Punk,
he no longer has Roman. He just got brought back.
And that's still kind of weird.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well, that's the next chap, It's the next conversation we
try to there's so many chapters, there are so many
segments that need to be examined individually or get on
unwieldy because there's so many moving parts and so many
cross Like the flow chart of relationships right now is
really intriguing.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
Yeah, and and and you know, if Seth is injured
and he needs time off, that opens the accelerator, like
you said for the champion. For me perfect world, Punk's
the champion, and he's duck dip dodging and dodge and
dip duck diving and dodging away from this new faction.

(19:25):
And that also opens the door for maybe he speaks
a little something into Jimmy or jay'sier and that might
help to consolidate this new faction. So I don't see
Jimmy or Jay working well with Braun. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, I mean that's that's a whole other I mean,
obviously there's history there with Hayman, but it seems like
that'll be kept separate for now. With with So then
we have brock Lester and to me, brock Lesterner destroying
John Cena. I know it upset people, but it was
too the law of transference. If Lesner can destroy John

(20:04):
Cena and bron Breaker can destroy brock Lesner, uh not
or or beat him when that day comes that they
face off Presps or Russelmania next year, whether it's for
a title or who side is Paul Hayman on, you
know whatever. I mean, there's all kinds of ways I
can tell that story. They The idea is bron Breaker
didn't get a match against John Cena. But in a

(20:26):
way he is. If he beats Brock Lesner, because Lesner
destroyed Sena, then you want quote Lesnar strong and a
validating match for him before the torches passed, so to speak,
that Breaker is the new you know Brock badass, Brock
Lesnar guy, you know style, you know, just super intense,
hard hitting wrestler associated with Paul Hayman. I don't know

(20:49):
how they get there. I don't know if they're expecting
fans to cheer Lesner at some point along the way,
which you know, man, I don't put it past him
to decide to try to do that. It might work
because it's America twenty twenty five. So yeah, so yeah, explore,
explore the Lesnar situation, including the I don't know if

(21:09):
it's a conundrum or or not that yeah, he is,
he destroyed Sina, but he didn't. He didn't do so
in a way where I think fans just like hate
Brock Lesner. They just saw him as a beast, you know,
he just he just did what beasts do. And I
guess that's kind of how we're supposed to get what
Breaker did on Monday. He just does what Steiner's do so, Yeah,

(21:34):
explore and elaborate on where you think the Lesner think
fits in when we get around of that. And do
you dis grew with any of my framing of it?

Speaker 3 (21:39):
No, I don't. I see Lesner as if they want
to rehab him and make him a face, they have
the uh booking arrogance to try to pull that off.
Good luck. I see this as I think at Carmelo Hayes, right,
he calls himself him, I'm him. They could have it WrestleMania,
the Hayman Invitational match to see who really is him

(22:00):
between bron Broun Breaker and Brock Lesser, and this is
going to be the guy. Can he take the crown
off the baddest man on the planet the last ten
twelve years. Yeah, that match rids itself. I look at
what's going on right now with Brock as Yeah, that's

(22:20):
great setup. They're not gonna put him against Coby, so
that means he has to beat someone else up that's
willing to get beaten up. It's not gonna be Randy
once Bitten, Troy Shy. It's not going to be I
can't think of another returning legend that would be willing
to get murdered by Brock for the sake of his story.
So it's gonna have to be him menacing either an

(22:43):
established guy that is on his way out. Is it
an aj Styles, is it a newly turned baby face
or whatever he was Shinsk Nakamura. But it needs to
be someone where it's another pelt on the wall in
between the columns be and probably see as they build
things around Brock and Braun not interacting with each other,

(23:07):
because I don't think we've even seen them have a
face to face yet, or like that two ships passing
in a night type deal. I think that might be.
Let's see it's October now, that might be maybe something
we set up in the weeks or months leading up
to the rumble. They might have a spot during the rumble.
In fact, that would make sense, especially if that's going
to be this year since Saudi, that would be one

(23:29):
of the ways you can kind of tip off to
the Crown priends, Hey look at what we did, and
you know they can show they did something they haven't
done anywhere else. But I think the story of Broun
Breaker and the story of Brock Lesner is going to
be the story of how long can you keep them
apart and how long can you find other folks that

(23:50):
are Paul Hayman guys to kind of even if it's punk,
that you can feed to them on the way to
their their their, their their showdown.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
I think there was a moment where Lesnar crossed paths
with Breaker and Read and they had a moment and
then and then Lesler kept walking. Okay, yeah, let let's
positive introduce the show, and then I want to read
an email conspiracy theory email about what we saw last night.
I also want to talk about the choice of who

(24:20):
the next world champion will be among the options and
delp into that a little bit more based on a
conversation on the Weighty Keller postal last night after Raw.
And also we took a snippet of it amated a
YouTube short about why maybe it's time for early night
not see them punk to win the world title. Let
me get your thoughts on that, but first we'llt choose
the show.

Speaker 4 (24:40):
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(27:53):
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Speaker 3 (27:54):
Hey, always great to be back. Thank you so much
for this and I'm looking forward to continue conversation.

Speaker 1 (27:59):
We got a conspiracy theory email from Dan B. I'm
gonna throw it out there. I think a fun conversation piece,
and we'll get your thoughts in mind, and I'll get
my thoughts too. I wasn't able to send this India
Study's post show, but for the flag Ship, I want
you to react to this potential conspiracy theory, which is
that Seth rollins in the vision that feud was brought

(28:20):
forward due to Triple H panicking over sagging ratings. I've
heard speculation that it may have been due to says
injury a Crone jewel, but I'm skeptical of this because
Paul Hayman had already dropped strong hints on air that
he was about to turn on Seth anyway, which also
leads me to ask why Seth's character was dumb enough
to not see this coming ps regarding the vision's lack
of chemistry. I may be wrong, but I suspect it
could be partly because Paul Hayman and Cmpunk are friends

(28:41):
in real life, where as Seth and Cmpunk are not,
and thus perhaps Hayman and Seth are uncomfortable working together backstage,
so it could turn out the lack of chemistry of
Seth and Hayman. Yeah, that they felt rich. Seth and
Hayman always felt like the couple that you meet at
a party. No, you get introduced to him and you're like,

(29:02):
why are they together? And are they happy? Are like,
what's I don't see it? I don't get it, you know,
like that. Always with Hayman and Seth, it felt like
it was effort or they couldn't be bothered to put
forth effort to look like they really had, you know,
shared vibes, had synchronicity of they would you know, pay
lip service to their mission. But there wasn't a real
dynamic there that we've seen with Seth with others and
Haymen with others. Whether it was based on what Dan

(29:24):
is saying in his ps here in the email or not,
it might have worked for the benefit of the storyline,
and perhaps they will say with or without credibility, it
was intended all along because the vision was a bridge
to get somewhere else, the Seth version of it, rather
than something that they were leaning into long term. That said,
what do you think of Dan's conspiracy theory that maybe
this is doing it sooner, or maybe it wasn't planned

(29:48):
at all, and the idea was we need a spark,
We need something to spark business because a good number
of the metrics aren't aren't great right now. I mean, well,
the trajectory isn't great. There's a lot of metrics that
are great ters of revenue and all that, but it's
not like there's been this increase in key metrics in
twenty twenty five compared to recent years.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
I think it's more injury or seth being off TV
related because there's very few folks on the roster that
they can have carry fifteen to twenty minutes to open.
So if you've got to re establish who's the top guy,
who the champion is, I think it's more of that
than the than the ratings or kind of conspiracy theory
type stuff. And the reason I would argue that, and
the argument I would bring forward for that is, look

(30:32):
at the track record of Paul Levec as a booker.
He does not panic change fence us to all the time.
Back in the day, you know this isn't working. To
change it, We're going to change it. Levec. Anything to
a fault will stick with the storyline and run it
into the ground before he makes the change. I think
this injury may force him to be this, you know,

(30:53):
the necessities the mother of invention, So I think that's
more the reason. And honestly, if this is all going
on on Netflix, there isn't going to be much noticeable
ratings changes because of the delayed nature of the Netflix ratings,
and this isn't something that's going to carry over to
smack Down.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, obviously, you know, internally they have whatever metrics they
use for the numbers on raw. They know what they
did the first week, They know what it's dropped down
to in the last in a couple weeks after that,
and how it sort of stayed in that area. And
if the idea was John Cena is gonna lead to
some sort of surge every time he appears, I mean

(31:34):
there's been a little bit of that, but it's oftentimes
paired with something else, so it's sort of hard to tell.
And I don't know how much good it is to
have seen a lead to a one week surge of
twelve or fourteen or twenty two percent of the rating
and then have it just drop back down again. That
that's not exactly a difference maker. So if the idea
and that Dan is kind of coming at is what

(31:57):
we're doing is not know it's like you mentioned head
coaches and gms and you know, accountability. If Levek is
at all worried about not being able to move the
needle and then he had access to John c all
year and he'll run didn't go well, I'm not saying
it was his fault, but in his babyface run, he's
getting great crowd responses, selling merchandise. Clearly he sells tickets,

(32:19):
but it's not like this off the charts boom period.
And it doesn't feel like Seine is going to parlay
his popularity in the nostalgia appeal of his return into
something that helped that that creates inertia and additional momentum afterwards.
It seems like Seena's operating in a vacuum. He's bringing
some eyeballs in and then they're just disappearing again. So

(32:41):
I'm not I think you're right. I mean, I think
this is Seth's injury accelerated something that was largely going
to be planning this way anyway. I think the selling
or the one of the selling points for Crown Jewel
was we want to create doubt about the outcome, and
so we're going to draw a ton of attention to
the possibility that if Seth loses again, there would be
huge ramifications. And most people didn't seem to that. I've

(33:04):
heard anecdotally that didn't make them think the match was
more that it didn't create more doubt in the interns
of the outcome. But it did to me. They invested
a lot of TV time in an outcome that didn't happen,
and usually when they invest that kind of TV time
in an outcome, it's foreshadowing that happening. So it made
sense to me that Seth would be distressed over possibly

(33:26):
losing to Cody, and then Hayman would say the ramifications
would be great because they just wanted to have people
tune in and go, I think Seth's gonna win, but
if he doesn't, I want to be there to see
what the fallout is. So I think that's independent. Is
my point of Dan's framing of it, which is, you know,
Seth that it should have seen it coming. I think
Seth would have come out of Crown Jewel rich thinking, ooh,

(33:49):
I avoided that disaster I validated myself and I now
am more solid with Hayman, Reid and Breaker because I won,
So I don't think that is an issue either here.
So like I said, ultimately, I think the injury accelerated
it and that this isn't sparked by any panic with

(34:10):
LEVAC when it comes to ratings, because I don't think
there's been any kind of crash either. It's just a
lack of finding a spark to move things up, especially
when you look at where SmackDown, for instance, was. But again,
the metrics are all messed up. Like you said, with Raw,
we can't really do your over year examples with ro
versus ron USA, we can't do ear over year examples
for SmackDown compared to its Fox run. Same thing with

(34:32):
n XTA move into the CWSCH Gottaboost. So you have
to extrapolate more subjectively some of the data points to
even come up with anything. But I think would agree
they're not in a free fall, but they haven't had
a boom period and seen it hasn't spiked things in
a way that seems like there's going to be any carryover.
So to me, this angle last night feels like it's
business as usual, but moved ahead a little bit because

(34:52):
of Seth And that would be my answer to Dan,
And mostly I think agree with you Rich.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, And I think that if you look at what
happens after this, well we can tell real quick if
this was a one off or instigated to create rating boosts,
because you'll see all of the typical hallmarks like okay,
Shane McMahon, level returns, all these crazy gimmicks to go

(35:18):
with things. If we don't see that, the goal is
just making things work. And so that's where I think
they're at, just trying to make it work. With the
entry to Rollins and with the ascension now of Breaker
and the return of Lessener, there's so many pieces that
they might not have had in their plan four months
ago that they now have to pivot.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
And I think business wise, are at a point where
this money is guaranteed for years, and unless there's some
outs or some performance clauses, I don't think there'll be
hot shot panic moves that maybe people who have watched
wrestling as long as Dad has have seen in the past.
One they don't have a lot they can do. I mean,
you know, I mean what you could say, but I

(36:00):
get why Dan looks at what happened last night and goes,
WHOA where did that come from? Is this a hot
shot move? Because it does reasonable hot shot moves, But
when you building the injury and the fact that they
were laking to groundwork for this otherwise, and it did
seem to most people thought eventually there'll be a breakup,
whether it's now or after WrestleMania or somewhere in between.
Just was, you know, basically remained to be seen. So
I get thinking it's a hot shot, But I don't

(36:21):
think Paula Beck is going to be in the hot
shot business to what ends? You know, I was asked
that about anything right now. And plus, what do you
do you know if you do three title changes? Levek
knows you do three hot shot title changes, it's not
in today's environment, that's not really going to change anything
in a big way. But it's going to play several
aces up your sleeve that you want to save for

(36:43):
prudent pacing rather than a panic. So another email question here, Justin.
Justin s says it's been a while since I sent
it in an email, but I have a question about
bron Breaker. How far can he go as a top
main event player. Do you think making him world champion
right now is a good idea or would it be

(37:04):
too much too soon? So I want to incorporate that
question rich into what we talked about last night on
the Raw Post Show, which is I think people are
going to think, well, se Punk win the number one
contentorship match. He might beat Seth Rollins, who maybe can
wrestle but can't wrestle after losing. But he has enough
where he could, you know, like you said earlier, get
through one match, or they could do an angle where

(37:26):
Breaker and Reid attacking before the bell and he says
you know, and he turns the baby face by going
I still want to fight, and then Punk beats him
but feels bad about it.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
Whatever.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
So Punk could win the world title, and it seems
like that's a most likely course right now. But should
La Knight get the world title? Has he and I
sat on the postal last night. My mind has changed
on this, and I think for good reason. Ella Knight
has held his own and looked like he belongs opposite
of Spunk, former world CHAMPI je who So every situation

(37:57):
you drop him in opposite of of the vision or
sharing screen time with them, it looks like he belongs.
And I didn't feel that way, you know, necessarily, nine
or ten or fifteen months ago about him. I thought
he was more of a top of the second tier guy.
He stepped up. He's more than a catchphrase. He's more
than you know, a cosplay Bland of the Rock and
Steve Austin with mannerisms and catchphrases and stumps in the

(38:19):
corner and all that. If Punk wins and beats Seth
rollins because Seth is injured and everyone knows it, and
because Seth is devastated by the loss of the breakup
of the vision when he was at a high and
they really laid that on heavy, so it seemed like
now he's at a real low. Does that take something
away from seem Punk winning the world title? So you've

(38:42):
got options. You've got bron Breaker, Ellie, and I most
likely see him Punk. You can introduce anybody else in there.
But if Seth is going to miss extended time or
any time enough to relinquish the world title or lose it,
what are the pros and cons? Going back to Justin's
question of Breaker, is it too soon? Should you build
up to it for Punk. Is it a letdown? And

(39:04):
do you maybe look at Ellie Knight in a way
that you wouldn't have given the circumstances.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
Right now, I would say first with Punk, I wouldn't
see that as a letdown. I think him winning it
in this fashion is something that would show opposite in fact,
that he's become such a trusted hand in this second
stint with the company, that he can be the guy
that is the allat Danielson and A. W Wood, Punk

(39:28):
was fired, that they can get the title too, they
can put it on them and it's just seen as
business as usual. There's no stress, there's no fuss, there's
no must. I don't think he would be a bad
choice at all, Ellie Knight. I didn't think six months ago,
you said ten months ago. Six months ago. Yeah, I
mean you could look back at my round tables and

(39:50):
I mentioned I felt like he got more protection than
his character warranted, and I was wrong. I think he's
really grown into this top rule. He's eschewed a lot
of the foibles and ring that led to folks chattering
and tittering about him in terms of forgetting spots and
getting clunky in the ring. He's a solid main event

(40:13):
WWE wrestler, and so if he were to be chosen
to be champed, I wouldn't see that as a bad
decision at all. And then Braun, I think, if you're
gonna coordinate Braun, save it for a bigger show, save
it for a bigger time. This isn't it. I think,
if anything, it's more the time to establish Braun as
the threat like Gunther had been before he won the title,

(40:36):
that you have to watch your back because at some
point he will. He'll not necessarily cash in, but he
will be the reason for your downfallst Champion.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
We're about to go to a commercial break. Why lessen
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(41:07):
the ads and plugs. For Patreon, full VIP membership starts
at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to treat yourself
to a streamlined add and plug free listening experience with
a VIP or Patreon membership. Is La Knight if you
went with him as world champion? And I'm not sure
we should navigate exactly how they're going to go there,
because if they were to choose that path, they can

(41:27):
do a variety of things and that can affect the
credibility of his reign. But if La Knight is a
world champion, is bron Breaker beating him to become champion
a good endpoint? Or should there be some passing around
of the belt so that it's Breaker, say beating brock
Lesner who destroys La Knight, or bron Breaker beating Brunson
Reed who skirts in and gets a title match before

(41:49):
breakover some reason and that leads to a breakup, Or
does he beat Ellie Knight directly or or what like
is because if La Knight becomes world Champion, it's going
to be more like ja Uso in that. Okay, here's
a guy we can ride for a while because people
like him. He's not the top top champion in the company,
but it is not long term and we want an endgame.

(42:11):
We want we want an exit ramp for this also,
I think.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
Like you said, let's not kind of legislate how it happens.
But if la Knight's the champion, that is the not
necessarily transition to Braun, But he's the guy who gets
his moment in the sun and then Braun eventually ruins it.
I think that's a win win for both because then
once he's seen his champ just like with aj Styles,
just like with Danielson in ww A, just like several others,

(42:38):
once they get the title, they're more often than not
given another chance to get it because there's a trust
with them in that role.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
What if is the old not letting again, not getting
into how he wants to to? But what is the old?
What is the over under on how long you think?
In laen I how to Run would go just like
to WrestleMania, to row Rumble, maybe beyond that if things
went well, because they would sidetrack some of the big
stars for special matches, special attraction matches that weren't for
the title.

Speaker 3 (43:08):
I think he would be I would want to put him. Yeah,
that's a good question, Waite. He would be the boy
makes good babyface that gets to cut promos without getting
interrupted on heel champs that at are around prime miss

(43:33):
level and then set up to get the big downfall
from Brock or Broun. I think either one because I
think if it was Brock and then you have Broun
versus Brock for the title at Mania, that could be
fun as well.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah. Yeah, So Justin's question is how biggest star can
bron Breaker be?

Speaker 3 (43:50):
What do you think I think it could be. Here's
how I put this, and Justin, I hope this helps,
and I'm trying to be as respectful as possible. Bron
Breaker can be bigger than what they allowed his uncle
to be at his height of his power because there
is no headwind of directly being compared to Paul Lavec

(44:15):
or from another company. Though because of that, the sky's
the limit for him. I think his uncle and his
father ran into well, his uncle more than his dad,
let's be real. I think Scott Steiner ran into the
bigger issue of being seen as less than from coming
from WCW and that internal I hate this dude's guts,
similar to what seam Punkin Levec had with each other.
And so I think with those bumps out of the

(44:37):
way and him being seen as an NXT developed guy.
He just like anyone else in the XT. I think
Levec will never cut off his own nose despite his face.
He is going to find a way to make this
guy as huge as possible. I think he could be.
I don't want to go to the legends and get
hyperbole in here. I'm not going to compare him to

(44:57):
Austin or the Rock or something like that. I'll compare
him to a better pushed And this might be going
back aways. He's everything Levic wanted right back to be
with none of the character flaws.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Interesting in terms of sticking him in.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
The main event, really wanting to give him the title,
but the dude just got in his own way at
any chance possible. Like, I've never seen a wrestler more
willing to undercut himself than the stuff Rye Back did
during that period of time.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
What about bron Breaker do you like the most when
it comes to him him getting the vote of confidence
and ultimately succeeding in the role you just described, And
then what are you still concerned about? Like we have
a YouTube short up about Breaker subtle acting earlier in
the show when Seth was breaking about himself and patronizing

(45:56):
and acting like it's you know whatever, I already covered it,
you know, just like my my words are gonna of
my endorsing you is is gonna make your day? And
then you know, Breaker just looking at you? Who are you? Yeah? Well,
I don't that's all the sidebar. I know. Maybe that wasn't.
I don't know, Like I said, that's a sidebarb. I
didn't like that. It was funny, it was entertaining. I

(46:17):
just thought it was immersion breaking and and playful, like
it belonged after the camera stopped rolling, if at all
at at a raw event for the just for the
fun of the crowd. So what are what are? Because
I think I was wondering all along as Breaker looking
at Seth, and I tooked about this aside of the potion,
like is he looking at Seth and we're just he's

(46:37):
trying to be neutral, but I'm looking at him and
I'm projecting onto that neutrality. This guy is insufferable and
annoying or was he trying to be subtle in that
This guy is insufferable and annoying, and I really want
to spear him, but I know that I'm not supposed
to do that because I you know, Bruns and Rita
to be mad, and Paul Hayman didn't give me permission.
I think it was subtle, acting like I think they're

(46:57):
little cues he gave. And that was one of the
things we loved about all the Bloodline work is is
you could get rewarded for looking at Solisic in the
background with his arms crush doing almost nothing, but there'd
be something that was intentional at a moment that if
you were paying close attention, would help you see where
things were going. So I haven't seen enough of Round
Breaker to know that there's he's interesting enough to be

(47:19):
a guy who can give those in ring long promos
every week. But some would argue other people have been
chosen for that role. Who else aren't very interesting? Cody
critic might say, I mean he just goes, what do
you want to talk about? And then he does meta
stuff and then it's sort of boring and then it's
over or seth rawlins. He drones on and on. It
takes you a long to get there. So some would argue, hey,
let's not going to stop Breaker from getting a centerpiece roll.

(47:40):
But I'll nevertheless direct the question to you, what are
his strengths and weaknesses at this point, And do you
agree that maybe the subtle acting is something he gets
up a check mark next to that box based on
the build to this moment, even if it was accelerated
or rushed.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
I think he gets He's like a B plus right
now now in that he has a great look, clearly
a great connection with the audience. His move set is
tied to his personality and is believable, And there just
needs to be less of what you mentioned before. The

(48:17):
next stuff the barking. Either he's a babyface that folks
are barking or he's a heel where folks need to
be booing. You can't have both, and I think that's
the biggest thing Levic has to whether it's with Paul
Hayman or him on his own sort of iron out
where is just like what's seth. You don't need a
song where folks are chanting along with you if you're

(48:40):
the nefarious person they should be trying to hate.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, is there anything else on this topic? Certainly a
topic coming out of Row last week, coming out of
Crown Jewel, but anything else you want to cover on
this that we haven't yet.

Speaker 3 (48:53):
I don't think so, I think we kind of hit
all the angles I could think of.

Speaker 1 (48:56):
Yeah, okay, good. So let's turn the page for a
second to Cody Roads where he stands now coming out
of Crown Jewel after the John Cina win, after losing
to Seth the way that he did. You know, first,
a big victory that's seen a sort of no soul
and now a tainted win, a tainted, attainted win by Seth,

(49:20):
but a loss that that didn't come clean. Where does
he go from here? And I'll introduce into the conversation
Chris Adams, who in his SmackDown, Hits and Missus had
a little note afterwards because he watched Crown Jewel before
writing the column. Also, he says, I'm increasingly worried about
Cody Roads, especially, and by the way, everyone can read
Chris Adams SmackDown, Hits and Missus at PW Torch dot

(49:42):
com every week. Usually it's up on the weekend. I'm
increasingly worried about Cody Roads, especially after his loss at
cron Jewel. Yes it was a dirty loss, but it's
still a loss. Having lost at both WrestleMania and Crown Jewel,
and with his championship win at SummerSlam, barely being celebrated.
I sense a lack of clarity about his future, and
I don't like it. I believe it was a right
decision for Seth to win, but just because it's the

(50:02):
right call doesn't mean it can't lead to negative consequences
if not handled properly. My gut tells me they won't
manage it well, and that's disappointing. So we talk a
lot about bron Breaker, Brock Lesner, Bronson Reid, Seth rawlins.
Is Cody Road still wwbe's top star, especially once we

(50:23):
get to mid December and seen as in the review
mirror or or do is it a wait and see
or what like? Does Cody feel lust or does he
feel like he's exactly where he always was? He's just
a reliable, top top guy, and they seem as committed
to him as always, and they're just going to be
an apid float of things. Obviously, Crown jew was mostly
about the set storyline, not about Cody.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Well, I think the Seth storyline is really about Cody,
because Cody is the WWEE champion. As much as we
talk about Set's title and his accolades and what's going
on on Raw and how things can happen with bron
Or Brock.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
And recency bias. We're doing the show on Tuesday and
Rob was last night.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
No, I think this is more of the historical They
treat the og WWE title as more than whatever secondary
title they create for the show for clarity.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
That's my point is we might be giving more to
Seth than we should because of the recency bias of
Raw last night at the Big Angle, and that can
lead to us not realizing really in the big picture,
if we step back, it's still clearly Cody as a
centerpiece with the with the main.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Title apologies, I'm misunderstood.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
So yeah, no, no, no, you don't have to apologize it.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
I was just going I was like, oh wait, no
is wait wait trying to hit me with some pithy
wit and on a score way to trip me up.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
No, he's just I was.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
I was.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
I was what I like to call interjecting briefly, not
interrupting a point that underlined and amplified and backed up
what you were saying.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Ah, well done, Well Paul Hayman would approve what that.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
I look at it as and it was pointed out
to me after the paper, Cody is still the man.
If anything, this made Seth and then Monday made Seth
even look even more prophetic. He got the win against
the big dog, the quarterback. Cody just spent Friday on
SmackDown in Australia talking about the ethos of what it

(52:16):
means to be the quarterback. So I was like, there's
no offense to you, Seth. I'm just the guy that
runs this and so I don't think there's any worry
by Cody on this. All of the indicators are he's
the guy that's in the scene and everyone else is
kind of revolving around.

Speaker 5 (52:29):
Now.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Obviously that can change over the next year or two,
but I think until it does, he's the face that
runs the pace. If I can borrow the John Cena
kom aj styles catchphrase.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Where when you look around, where does Cody go from here?
The Seth Rollins match was us a Crown Jewel Champ
versus Champ kind of special attraction thing. The John Cena
match at SummerSlam was a croning moment for him, but
it has then he went away for all was off
for a while, not a lot of momentum. We got

(53:02):
a couple of centers, main events coming up, What survivor's here,
what's on the horizon for Cody That's gonna make this
concern that Chris has about him, and even entertaining the
notion that maybe he's just a guy in the mix
in certain ways seem like a silly thing to say.

Speaker 3 (53:21):
I would say, take a look at what's going on
right now with the triple threat for the title. Jay
Uso prior to the pay per view or PLA rather
had that moment where him and Cody talked and he's like, yeah,
I need to get back, and he's staring at the
WWE title the whole time. Jay just entered a triple
threat match where he lost. I think Jay is going

(53:43):
to jump shows temporarily and challenge Cody, probably for Saturday
Night's main event, and continue his streak of starting fights
with people he helped on way to breaking up the
Bloodline as he tries to rebuild mentally his own where
he's now Roman.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
And then what, I don't know, he's just.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
So emotionally broken. Roman did a number on his cousins.
That's what we see. That's clear. It's like, don't ask
for help, don't ask for me to help you. Don't
ask for you to help me. If I'm getting jumped
by three guys, let me die in the street. What
after I spent the better part of three and a
half years at your beckon call, making it three four,

(54:27):
five on one to help you. Now you want me
not to because you're saying people say I'm the reason
that you had to call for help.

Speaker 5 (54:36):
No.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
I think Jay is in his own world right now.
Roman catching the tsunami gives a great way for him
to take some more time off, and in that interstitial
period allowed Jada further become Roman Junior, as Sampunk called him.

Speaker 6 (54:57):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talk NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee Hazelwood and special guests, live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(55:17):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
Let's talk about that for a moment too, or explore
it a little bit more, because it's I'm not against
not knowing where things are going as long as I
have some faith established through track record that it'll make
sense wherever that the ending place is good, and it'll
make sense when we look back at how we got there.
When we talk about top stars, Cody's a guy who's

(55:50):
going to be there more weeks than not as a
full time guy still in his prime. Hasn't been a
top top guy for as long as other people came
a little late for him because of the journey that
he took. But Roman is arguably still the top star
in the whole company, especially once seeing it retires. It's
just there's no like legend retirement tour to kind of

(56:10):
get in the way of that. He has more oxygen
and more space to occupy to himself. You got Brock.
He's you know, tainted and very part time and very
much near the end, and I think more of a
guy being used to get somebody else over at this point.
So if the goal is is to get more out
of Roman, and I don't you know, we don't know
how much more he has in terms of how many

(56:31):
more dates he's gonna want to work, how much more
you know, renewing deals and increasing dates Ever again, probably not,
but there's still more to be done with him. What
are they doing with him right now? Like, what is
the end goal? What are we supposed to feel now?
And where do you think they're going with him as
he does get back to kind of playing mind games
with Jay and Jimmy. But I don't think you can

(56:52):
rule out that he isn't going to be the tribal
chief who knows what's best for them and then one
or neither listen to him, or maybe both do, and
there's that he is a that he has their best
interest in mind. Or is he being a dick? Is
he being a jerk?

Speaker 7 (57:09):
He is he.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
Just having you know, showing signs of the old heel
Roman reigns. I think there's a whole mix of ways
that the current audience is looking at what Roman is
doing right now. How do you think they want him
to be seen rich and where do you think it's heading.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
I think it's a little of both. I think they
want him to be seen as a baby face. That's cool,
but he still has these traits that are toxic that
leak into his relationships with his closest people. So you
think about his relationships that are kind of strained now
with Jimmy and Jay doesn't want to see them until
after Christmas. You have the strained relationship with Paul Hayman
because of the choice he made to go and see

(57:42):
him Punk for the one match. It's not like every
other night in three hundred and sixty five day year
calendar three sixty six, an elite year would have been
a difference, but the fact that he chose that one
day which just too much for Roman. I He's just
and then Sammy seems to be neutral the Roman's wrath
with all of this, So I just see him as

(58:05):
a guy that is there's gonna be one of their
top baby faces that they depend on for similar to Brock,
bigger matches, but not necessarily bigger storylines because he's not
always going to be there.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Yeah, yeah, it. I don't. I'm not there yet, especially
with what happened last night. But do you have in
your mind a WrestleMania Top top three or four matches
on the men side of things that you think they're
pointing towards or do you think it's pretty wide open?

Speaker 3 (58:33):
I think it's pretty wide open. I would have said
if Seth were healthy, some combination of Seth Roman and
see him punk again, whether it's a direct singles match
or one of those two nights specials where one night
is one match and that determines the second night. They've

(58:53):
gotten really good at those. But no, I can't really
think of anything, and I think that's fun. Yeah, that
means this is a year where, again, much like after
they got the Netflix deal and they started with esp
or we're gonna get the ESPN deal, you had the
experiment with jau So I would argue, while the title
wasn't the greatest run ever, elevating him was because you

(59:15):
have another tool in the toolbox, or another toy in
the toy box, whatever analogy you want to use, that
you could utilize that the fans legitimately see as deserving
to be in that position.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Do you still think Sammy's ain is gonna factor in
that the US title defense reign is building him up
kind of quietly as an I don't quietly as word,
but as a sidebar undercurrent to something that then will
rise up and be a major storyline early next.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Year, I would hope. So yeah, I mean, at this point,
I think between him and kind of some of the
goings on with the women, which then adds more women's
matches to the pay per view card. Sammy might be
the odd man out, and that is the story of
Sammy's ain so far in WWE. I would love to
see him win a world title. I don't know if

(01:00:02):
it's gonna happen, and that's fine. I don't think everyone
needs to be world champion. But the problem with WWE
is they've had this poonchamp for creating this idea that
everyone could be world champion, and I think that's one
of the fatal errors they made in the last few years,
because if you make it special. For instance, think about
the Gunthera Rain. I think his reign was essential for
that world heavyweight title to establish it because you didn't

(01:00:25):
have hot Potato with the belt. He just ran through
people for a while and then eventually lost.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
All Right, I'm gonna go back to Justin. He has
a second question in his email, and it'll get us
onto another side of Dotobe, which is women's side of things.
What are your thoughts on Stephanievicara so far? I think
she's a great wrestler, comes up very genuine as a
wrestler who's traveled a long journey to superstardom. What do
you think about her push so far? I think she's
slowly becoming the second most popular woman on Ron, one
of the most over women in the company right now.

(01:00:54):
By the way, where the hell is aj Lee Hella?

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
Well, well, I think aj is enjoying the perks that
come with a contract that don't require you to be
there every week. I think I think that on that.
And then with regards to Stephanie Viacer, I'm with you.
I think the way and I mentioned that in my
report they set her up through these matches, through wrestling
Tiff and then now being world champion on Raw to

(01:01:19):
be that next crop of female athletes that they push
as top stars. You see the way Bianca and Eo
and Rhea and Jade at times were shown. I think
Stephanie is going to be that and more, especially with
the Latin American market and for her ability to kind

(01:01:41):
of create such an interest. I mean, you know, Booker
t help with some of the Devil's Kiss stuff and
making it kind of like, you know, something I could
have been goofy that is seen as a really cool
spot that is now widely accepted is kind of a
very cool like for instance, Sean Waltman made the Bronco
Buster less awkward than say, any of the folks who

(01:02:06):
did it after then that's Sean's personality. I think he
was able to make that thing work in a way
that even when the bookers tried to have the women
do it, it just seemed really awkward and tawdry. And hopefully,
you know, no one injures themselves like Sean because that sucked.
I just think Stephanie is going to be as good

(01:02:28):
as they lower to be. She's a great wrestler, she
has a great personality, she connects with the fans. It's
just a matter of is there going to be enough
room up there at the time they want to pull
the trigger, because I think right now she's semi main
and she's getting there, but she's not knocking to Oh
out of the way. She's not knocking me out of
the way. Bianca's kind of hurt. So she has a
spot to steal for now and clearly she's, even in

(01:02:51):
this short time, taking a step above Tiffany.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yeah. I think there's an ensemble right now, and I
don't think Paula vack Is Folks is determined to make
two or three stars in the top five, six seven,
bigger than the other the next two or three stars
under them. Like, I think he doesn't know what he
has yet, and I think he's gonna give his best
effort to get the care over Julia, Tiffany, Jade, Bianca

(01:03:18):
when she comes back, continue to try to get stuff
out of Bailey. Charlotte eventually won't be with Alexa Bliss
in a tag situation. You still have Alexo Bliss. I
just think he has a lot of pieces on both brands.
And I think Grey Ripley's top star on the female
side of things, And I think you know, Eo and
Oscar and Kyrie, I think are somewhat ensemble and interchangeable

(01:03:42):
in the big picture, especially when there's any kind of
roster shuffling going on with Charlotte and Jade and Tiffany
and Bianca. So to me, I guess the question is
is the fairest question, based on the evidence we have,
including how they're presenting, are unprotecting or is the care
is on is part of an ensemble of roughly ten

(01:04:05):
women who are at any given time potentially going to
be in the top feud in the company on that brand.
On the brand that they're on, and I think that's
a good spot to be. You know, sometimes you know,
they go back to usc anology. Sometimes you have Vanerson
Silva just wins all the time. And then sometimes you
have a title where there no one defensive title more

(01:04:25):
than once, you know, the light heavyweight title for a
while and you see, you know, many years ago. So
you can have one division and it happens to be
the men where there's clear cut you know, top two, three,
four stars, and then you can have a women's division
through happenstance, not not by design, where you just have nine,
ten to eleven women who all are pretty close to

(01:04:47):
each other. Even if you just have one who pretty
consistently like with three is at the top, you have
a big group under her and it just rotates. And
I think the care is already earned strong consideration and
a consistent pushing TV time to be one of those
top again eight, nine ten women under Rhea. Does that

(01:05:08):
seem in line with rich what you're thinking?

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, I would think I'm trying to think
of another now. For me, it's like having either a
running back room or for those of you baseball fans,
I'll switch it to that to kind of even things out.
If you have a pitching bullpen where you have an

(01:05:31):
established starter, but you have enough middle relievers and you
can close with any of them. There isn't one person
that's just got to bring the show down. Any of
them can win the game. Any of them could come
in and step up for a minute or two, ending
or two. And I think that's really what the women's division,
like you said, is now. And if there are folks

(01:05:52):
like a Ria for instance, that bubbles to the top.
She did that with Bianca and at the expense of Bianca,
and I think that's one of the biggest takeaways from
the women's division in a way that hasn't ever reflected
a lot of the men's wrestling where they are. While
they are, as Bailey mentioned in her interview with Stone Cold,

(01:06:13):
you are, you still have the ability to advocate and
provide for yourself. But there also are opportunities where there's
a camaraderie ree in a sisterhood where you're elevating with
someone or some folks as opposed to seeing it as
in order for me to go up, I got to
throw people down the ladder.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Yeah, all right, let's uh let's talk about the dynamic
with EO and Kyrie and Oscar and what they did
last night and the whole story arc here as we're
talking about the women's division that has been getting a
ton of attention. I think it's been successful. With some
wincing and cringing a little bit here and there with

(01:06:51):
maybe some aspects of what was going on last night. Yeah,
I think as time has gone on, they've done a
good job really establishing Oscar is this abusive alpha temperamental
and and I don't cruel isn't the word, but.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
I don't know what well, it's it's very much and
they kind of even did it yesterday. I did an
interview for the Torch. I want to say at this
point it was five years ago with Rocky Romero and
he was in Long Beach at the time while I
was at a conference, as luck would have it, and

(01:07:28):
so I got to sit down with Hi when he
was with New Japan La Dojo, and he talked about
the importance of creating the environment of the uh Sempai
Kohai relationship, simpai kohei relationship in the La Tojo, so
that you had an elder and then he had a
junior that respected one another but then could learn. And

(01:07:49):
I think that's what they've taken to the abusive nth
degree with Osca. She took the step of being the
first Joe She that went across the you know, went
across the ocean, became a w star, set the stage
for the other two women in terms of Eo and Kyrie.
And there was a debt and there was a side
of culture, not just a debt in terms of like
I did this, you owe me. It was I made

(01:08:10):
this decision. I'm a little older than you all, I'm
the elder sister that's taking care of you. But she's
taken it in the toxicity of it to the level
now where that slap across the face and then her
caressing the side of the cheek she slapped and saying
I need you to restore my honor. That is some
that's a mind efforty right there, to the nth degree,

(01:08:32):
Like that's a lot. And the way they did it,
I appreciated it because it wasn't just screech, screet screech,
yelling Japanese screech, street screech, do something that's somewhat erotic.
It was them showing, and Kyrie showed, especially with her
facial actions why did this woman hit me? And what
am I in? Like? How do I get out of this?

(01:08:54):
And even in the match she had later with Rhea,
you saw Osca try to slide under the ropes or
under the april and at the end in an effort
to again not help her friend, but still established that
her honor was intact because to her, Kyrie's embarrassing her.
She's the crazy parent or the dance mom that's recording

(01:09:15):
everything and you hear the kid. I hear that too
often over the years with the young kids in football,
like the parent in the stance telling the kid, Hey,
just do this, just do that, and the kid's like,
I got it, Dad, shut up, And so that's we
haven't had that moment what Kyri whish She pushes back
and so I'm waiting for that. But in the interim,
I think Eo gaining the trust because remember going back

(01:09:38):
into WrestleMania, EO and Rhea didn't like each other because
there was the thought that they both Leo felt disrespected
by Bianca and Rihea because they felt like it was
a means to an end and they didn't think Thateo
would ever beat Rhea or Bianca, and she wound up
beating them both.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Prog
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:10:24):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com your first stop for TV

(01:10:47):
and pay per view written reports. Is there anything you
would have done differently given the cultural background that you
just talked about in your interview with Rocky Romero and
Doughby has I won't say started, but they've they've amplified

(01:11:09):
the framing of what's happening, I think lately, more effectively
than they did at the beginning, the cultural aspect of it,
rather than something that just translates to any culture. If
they've they've honed in on you know, we say on
on the r VP podcast everything with Rich and Wade
assume no knowledge, like you know, there's there's things going
on on social media or things in wrestling history, and

(01:11:31):
you want to you want to live what you preach
in terms of like aw they assume a lot of
knowledge with their viewers, and they'd often be better off
going Hey, for those who don't know, bear with us.
If you do, here's some background that might might catch
you up or bring bring you up to speed, or
help you understand what's going on here and why it's
so important and why people are reacting the way that
they are to it. Would you have done anything differently

(01:11:51):
along the way, or would that have felt too like
expositional or like, hey, let's let's tell you where this
is going ahead of time so that you're prepared for
it when it happens. Do you think the approach that
they've taken has felt natural, organic and effective. Or do
you think they waited a little too long to frame
this as something that isn't just three screeching Japanese women

(01:12:14):
wrestlers who have different level of experience and different temperaments,
And there's a hierarchy there in adding to it, Wait,
there is a cultural there's a cultural legacy here that's
driving everybody's reactions and actions in this scenario.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
I think there's a weight. But I think they could
have started sooner with the sit down interviews to explain
even before the heel stuff started, to explain Oscar's importance
to the other two women. I think it's one thing
to see them all together in damage control, it's another
to have And I think they could have gotten those

(01:12:55):
photos because I guess now stardom is aligned with New
Japan with their aw But I would have loved to
have seen the pictures from back in the day in
Triple Tales where you see EO and her sister in
Oscar in the stables, like this woman's been with me
since the start of my career. Near the start of
my career, Kyrie pictures from NXT. First thing I did
when I got over here, she looked out for me.

(01:13:16):
EO had me, had my back, but we knew if
there was anything going on, we could call Osca. Then
a picture of them as the Kabuki Warriors, then a
picture of the Sky Pirates, like there is ways that
they could and they've done this with the English speaking
wrestlers as well. You just do a photo or video
essay on the relationship between the three women and again
highlight like I just suggested the discord between Bianca, Eo,

(01:13:40):
and Rhea in terms of the disrespect that the other
two women showed towards a woman who was also a
fellow former champion, and that establishes how long and how
long it took for Eo to regain and re establish
a relationship with Rhea while also having to sever the
ties to Oscar because it become too top and jealousy

(01:14:00):
had started to set in.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
Very good. Let's shift to Bound for Glory on Sunday night,
the one of the two biggest shows of the Earth historically,
the bigges show of the Earth Simmiverses right there with
it in terms of t and a putting a focus
on things. What did you think, first of all, overall
about the quality of the show. Certainly some of the finishes,

(01:14:25):
you know, might have rubbed some people the wrong way.
It was a mix of star power from from TNA
and NXT and then you know a mix of legends
and up and comers. How did the show overall work
for you?

Speaker 3 (01:14:38):
Overall? I would say it worked all right for me.
I liked the semi main main event. I really liked
until the finish, the X Division title match. I was
a big fan of the ten person in her gender
Hardcore War and most of the women's matches were just terrible,

(01:15:02):
and I'm so sad because of the women involved for
different reasons. So I'll kind of run. I know, traditionally
we go from a first match to the main event.
I'll go main event back because Ike Santana beat Trick
Williams no chicanery other than and this ties into one
of the matches I was lukewarm on. AW has something similar.

(01:15:25):
WWE has something similar, but where TNA is different. They
have a Call Your Shot Gauntlet. It's similar to the AW.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
What is that the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):
It's like the Blackjack analogy. It's the one where you
basically can pen, submit or throw a person over the
top rope, and you get a title match anytime you
want within a year of the championship match, you're choose it,
so you're good. Twenty two people were in the match.
They had this really silly finish where Nick Nammoth and
Frankie Kazarian did the double roll up pen where you

(01:15:59):
grab the person his legs with your legs and both
shoulders were down, and there were two refs counting three
on either side of the wrestlers, and so Sentino argued
that because of that, both Frankie Kazeri and Nick Nemeath
were the champ, or not the champ, but the trophy winner.
There's only one trophy, only one contract, so because of that,
they are now both eligible to cash it at any

(01:16:21):
point they want. What was fun about that? Because I
didn't like it because Franki Kazarian is a wrestler in
TNA that's set up as a guy that's never won
the world title. He talks a big game, but he
doesn't ever back it up because he's a chicken as heel.
Nick Nemeath has gone a long way from being Dolph Ziggler.
I say all that to say he still does a

(01:16:42):
lot of things that would make you think he's Dolf Ziggler.
Only now he has his younger brother to be his
Sika fan and that makes the act so much better.
I cannot tell you how much I enjoy watching Nick
Nemath wrestle and TNA when his brother is around. In fact,
after they won this Call Your Shot Gauntlet, his brother
is hiding the trophy from Frankie Kazarian to make sure

(01:17:05):
his big brother has access to it. Which is that
is But again the side effect is you have two
smarmy heels that worked because of the main event. Mike
Santana beats Trick Williams Clean, you have Nick Neameath Brye
to cash it in and he gets mollywop by Mike
Santana And I want to say it with somebody from

(01:17:27):
the system. I think it was Moose. I think Moose
hit him, So then you think, okay, great, Mike Santana
doesn't have to worry about this idiot stealing his belt.
Oh no. In the ring on the other side is
Frankie Gazarian talking to another ref saying I want to
cash this in, and the ref is telling him you
need the trophy in hand in order to cash it in,

(01:17:51):
and because Nemet is unconscious on the other side of
the ring with the trophy in hand, he can't do it.
Santana knocks him out, stands tall with his I want
to say, his daughter, and the show goes off. I
love that because now that sets up the double jeopardy
of both of these idiots as heels are going to
try to one up each other and try to steal
the cup to call their shot, and half of it's

(01:18:13):
going to be them undercutting each other before the other
person gets to hand it in.

Speaker 1 (01:18:18):
So that was fine, the hartis and the a clean
finish to a world title match, but also a postmatch
scenario that answers some questions about some other things that
are going to be happening next.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
Yes, and this has also been foreshadowed before because in
the past we've had that very same situation happen, including
the child of the champion in the ring and the
person moves I believe it was at the time, cash
it in and then win the title and Josh Alexander
is left with a crying kid who didn't know this
was you know, kfabe, and so because of that and

(01:18:50):
I can't remember what interview. I heard it, but he
was like I felt bad, but also from a career stoandpoint,
that was the best thing that could have happened, because
my kid's crying is legit and so the pain is
like real even though the title wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
Before you move to the next match. At the Impact
tapings last month that I went to, Frankie Kazarian like
in person just seemed to be having the time of
his life. Yes, and to just talk about him for
a mom because I think people who aren't watching TNA
and it's off their radar saw him, as you know,

(01:19:28):
in a w like a guy sort of living off
his TNA past and he's sort of like he's not
really a Brian Danielson level guy from that error AJ styles,
but he's sort of around and and but never found
I mean, I thought some of the stuff he did
in AW frankly was cringe and it seems like he's

(01:19:50):
found a lane that he is just delighting and playing
right now. And elaborate on that a little bit, and
where you think he falls in the hierarchy of of
TNA is is he is he in terms of at
what level is he contributing and how much. Are they
spending too much or too little or just the right
amount of TV time on it?

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
I think they're using the right amount of TV time
with him. He runs an almost Dolf Zigler or Jericho
or Mis type talk show where he establishes the babyface
heel typically Maine of vent Or feuds and interjects himself.
So I would say he's semi main, but he interjects
himself into the main event in ways where you appreciate

(01:20:28):
it because of the heel work he does. His usage
of scarves is only matched by Christ Jericho in terms
of just being just absolute, just jerk while we're in
this very stylish scarf, and I think, like you said,
he's had a great time doing this. This isn't like
scu or you know. I remember seeing him when I

(01:20:50):
was following ECW, and I was friends with Nova at
the time. He went by once Nova left ECW. When
they were on this tag seemed as the again similar situation,
the elder wrestler with the younger guy taking him along
their tag team and learning. He's learning as he learns
from this guy. He it was Frankie the future Kazarian

(01:21:12):
and so now he's gone, so far that he's the
elder Statesman and he's working with these folks, and he
looks great doing it, and I, like you said, he's
having fun doing it. So I think this call your
shot gun let storyline is gonna be if only because
Frankie's in it, and of course Nick and his brother.
I think it's gonna be fun if only. I just

(01:21:33):
thought it was a kind of questionable finish.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
Speaking of scarves, is Frankie Kazarian closer to AWS MJF
or WWE's Grayson Waller or is he kind of smacking
between in terms of yeah, yeah, that's what I was
gonna say. Yeah, likes he's more serious in Grayson Waller.
But you can see why someone just glancing at the
show but you're like, oh, that's like they're Grayson Waller.

(01:21:58):
But you can also imagine someone sing out the show going,
is that THEMGF like with the scarves in the in
the just the bomb bast of the heel character. I
don't know if MGF and bombast of the rightma I
guess sometimes it is. So anyway, that was as we
try to like paint a picture of wherek Hasarian falls,
it's like a little bit of each of them, but
definitely not at either extreme.

Speaker 3 (01:22:19):
Yeah, I would say he's in the middle. And I'm
honestly surprised Frankie never got that much run, for instance,
in w W because he was one of the last
guys trained by Killer Kerwalski and just kinda hmm, never
it never happened. He was a Southern California got PWG,
then TNA. He did a little bit with WWE, but

(01:22:42):
it was never something of note. So I think this
has been him finding his spot, yeah, later in his career,
and I think TNA has done it in a way
where you know, in the past there would be the oh,
XWWE guy, let's make him a star or x w
W got I got fired, Let's put him in the

(01:23:03):
main event. This is dude who's earned his stripes as
a as a heel, and he's done it in TNA
as well with SCU and bad influence with Chris Daniels,
and they did it back then too with the scarves
him and him and Daniels were big scarf guys. So
I think this was this is a great water level
for him and if he does, in fact, at some

(01:23:24):
point win the title, I think it's funny because during
the post show or prost Match press not press conference,
the pros Match promo in the back, Nemoth was talking
about how he's going to cash it in, and Frankie,
being the curd mudgeon he is, it's like, well, I'll
just cash it in after you cash it in, and
I'll beat you for it. And I was like, wow,
that is such a sure thing to do, and that

(01:23:44):
would be the perfect way to win it for your
first time if you're a heel like he was. So
I look forward to seeing. However, this plays out very good, yep,
So go on then, so I'll be quick because I
know we have other things we want to talking about.
The Hardy's and Team three D. He had a table
the last table match, and God bless him. Jeff Hardy

(01:24:07):
jumped off like a twenty foot ladder through a table
to finish off Devon, and it was very clear during
this match that Devon was just like, brother, I'm getting
through this match because I wanted to wrestle you guys,
but nothing crazy, please, And Matt is like same thing,
like I'm cool if you're cool, and Bully Ray you know,

(01:24:29):
at the end of the match, both men. Both Dudley's
took their boots off, so I knew Devon hadn't wrestled
other than like the occasional match with his kids. But
Bully Ray taking his boots off was very interested in
me because he's done so many one off things for
WWE recently. I don't know if it's gonna stick, but
if the Dudleys are going out together, that is such
I'd love to do at some point, probably an episode

(01:24:51):
of Everything where I talk about the history of the Dudleys,
because this when I first started watching ECW and Devon
was bullying because of his stutter. That's why he was
buh buh bubbly Buck Dudley. For those not aware, there
were several other Dudley's, including Uh. I don't know how
this will work with the Blue brand. I'll just say

(01:25:13):
large Richard Dudley, and he was the elder Dudley that
kind of ruled over the other Dudley's, but he disappeared
kind of like Roman does. In fact, I'm thinking about
this and the entire history of the bloodline could be
explained by the Dudley family. Holy crap, all right, that'll
be for another day, Okay, Wow, like that really that

(01:25:33):
broke me for a second. Men life that Paul Hayman,
You's son of a Okay, So I thought it was
a good match. The Javon Evans Leon Sata match, I
thought was the beginnings of a good match, and then
it turned into a time limit draw while they were
brawling outside of the ring. And then they restarted the match,
and then Dark State showed up and beat them both
up and turned it into a no contest. That sucked.

(01:25:55):
That ruined what could have been a statement win for
either man. Even if Leon beats Javon, Javon loses to
everyone on NXT. Anyway, they're both young superstars in training,
and I just I was just flabbergasted. But when I
look and I remember going to the TNA show here
in Pittsburgh, I saw the NXT guys during the match,

(01:26:18):
like sitting in the crowd, kind of like Smoking Man
from the X Files, like taking notes on every single
thing going on. So I'm assuming WWE kind of put
the kebash on that, So that was what it was.

Speaker 8 (01:26:37):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast, the
New Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
Pro Wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events.

Speaker 3 (01:26:48):
Dictate and I'm Chris Lansdowe.

Speaker 7 (01:26:51):
Join us as we covered the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they navigate an era with no lack.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Of talent but a real need to create some news stars.

Speaker 7 (01:27:00):
Then you seven stop on CAUs Now from Pro.

Speaker 5 (01:27:02):
Wrestling, talch.

Speaker 3 (01:27:13):
I mentioned the system versus Order four ten person in
her gender Hardcore War. So for those of you want
a toware, Hardcore War is their version of War Games,
only it's not in a cage and there aren't two rings.
It's just one ring, and I think that allowed for
a lot of mayhem between the ten wrestlers when they
got to the quote unquote match beyond one of the

(01:27:34):
key moments at the end, there's this super huge dude
named Agent zero that is in Order four that's like,
you know, think about big cast and he took Alicia Edwards,
Eddie Edwards's wife who had produced Thumbtacks because of course
she did, into the ring and it gave her like
the black hole slam onto the thumb Tacks, which led

(01:27:57):
to Eddie Edwards turning into Popeye, and that dude Mustafa
Ali tried to give her a four point fifty with
the thumb tax, and he found another bag to pour
on top of her. She rolls out of the way
and I have never seen a human being splat like
the way Mustapha Ali did with that four to fifty
chess first into thumb tax and the System one. I

(01:28:22):
thought that the System is one of my favorite stables
in DNA. I like order for for because it's a
stable where at first they were put together because Mustafa
Ali was set up as this presidential candidate type character
and this is his secret service and he's kind of
molded and he's kind of cajoled and kind of like
a cult leader. Eventually gotten everyone in his stable to

(01:28:43):
his side, when at first they were kind of fighting
him on it. The System, they're just a collection of folks,
five folks who believe they're the best representatives of impact president.
I love it. Klanie Jordan and Indy Hartwell had one
of them. The second world match I saw on the card,
maybe even third worst because for once I watched the

(01:29:05):
pre show and the inspiration at heather Bi Elegance and
then by Elegance had a tag title match which was
probably the worst five minutes of wrestling I've seen this year.
I don't know what happened to Clonnie's a good wrestler
Indy I thought was, and he's been a good wrestler
in Spurts, but since she's moved to TNA, it has
not been a good experience. And then Tessa Blanchard, Oh boy,

(01:29:29):
my time is running out and I want to kind
of talk about some some other subjects. But Tesla Blanchard
spent this week with a YouTube video explaining she didn't
go away because the fans didn't like her. She got
a boot job, and so she wanted to talk about
how this was for her and how voices outside always
have things to say about her, so she wanted to
clear the air. Okay, cool. She has this match with

(01:29:52):
Gear Miller and it's terrible. It is terrible. She had
a Maxine CMLL earlier in the last two weeks that
was terrible. She has just fall. I don't know what's happened,
like mentally, I don't know one would think, okay, let
me back up. And then she also was one of
the folks when the gentleman died in Utah to kind

(01:30:17):
of spouse, the poor thing, and and kind of like
the big heartfelt. So she's not had the best three weeks.
She's just and so you get in the ring and
you figure she's gonna because Testa has always been a
good wrestler. The finish of their match was she has
her up in the air for a power bomb or
some sort. Tessa is supposed to hit her like her

(01:30:38):
dad would hit wrestlers with a roller quarters. Wait, the
darn roller quarters explodes. So it's not like the ref
can't see building quarters exploding and they just and they
have to slide them out of the way as the
ref counts one, two, three, terrible. Steve Macklin beat Frankie

(01:30:58):
Gazarin in the Open for the TNA International Championship. This
used to be their social media adjacent title, so this
was a good way for Frankie to have that I
lose in the opening match, I win the bigger match later,
very very you know, slick booking. And Steve Macklin has
done a great shot for himself since getting released by WWE.
He's created again another environment for him to succeed and thrive,

(01:31:21):
and he's gotten a I would say a minor I don't.
I don't want to compare him with stone Cole, but
he has the vibe of if Stone Colt was an
a Wall Army officer trying to prove he didn't commit
the crime they accused him of. That's kind of what
Steve Macklin's gimmick has been, and I've enjoyed it in
impact TNA. I've enjoyed it in the d's when I've
seen him during like WrestleMania weeks in Philly a couple

(01:31:43):
of years ago, for instance. So he's been he's been good.
So I thought that was good and then yeah, overall
I thought it was a good card, just marred by
sadly three terrible women's matches, crazy booking with some of
the bigger decisions, and then ultimately the best decisions they
could make in terms of the Hardy's beating the Dudleys
and Santana getting over Trick Williams clean and finally NXTE

(01:32:07):
kind of in addition to the show they had last
week taken the fall for TNA and not doing what
Vincent ban did with the Invasion Angle twenty somedd years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
What'd you think of the atmosphere, the crowd and this
just kind of the setting.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
Yeah, it was like close to sixty five hundred and
seven thousand people. I thought they were very excited. The
one downside, though, I would say, being full disclosure, it
seemed to me watching it on the pay per view
feed that there are a lot of folks that left
after the Hardy's match.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
So and again that well, and it was a long show,
by the way, part of the problem. I mean, I
don't know that if they would have kept a tidy
three hour show that that would have happened to the
degree that you're noting.

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, if because as it stood, it
was what close to four and a half. Yeah, yeah,
if they had gone with three, if it was Tidy three,
if you got rid of the Tessa match and you
made that pre show, if you given what they were

(01:33:14):
going to do with the no contest, you could have
moved the Slater Evans match to Tina and Wellsion.

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
I think you want to have that match on Bound
for Glory, just not with the finish. Oh that's the thing.
If you're not going to do a finish, And maybe
that's just politics, you know, but likely I shouldn't even know.
Maybe it's politics. It probably almost for sure it was.
But and then you know that they did, you know,
they transitioned the way that they There's it could end

(01:33:40):
up heading somewhere with those two where it's like, Okay,
I kind of see why they did that, but paper
you should be the resolution in not twenty seven minutes.
And then ugh, but I don't know if you needed
the hardcore war and the call your shot gauntlet. I
mean it got a lot of people on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
Yeah, that got but that's not your reason on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:34:01):
But you're you're in the business of crowding a new
champion in Santana with a full audience that isn't exhausted
at home end in the venue. And if you're in
the business of, well, we want to get everybody on
the show and have fun with a with an overly
elaborate gimmick match that you know, wish John West was
around to explain because that's our tradition. I don't know.
Obviously the Tessa you know Miller match could have been bumped.

(01:34:24):
And really Kazarian and Macklin. For all our talk about Kazarian,
if you need to cut or short, you know, try
to find a way to shorten a couple of matches too, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
Because the longest match was really the The longest match
was the the Heart I'll call your shot Gonlet and
then the second second longest was Leon and Javon Evans
because they restarted it after the draw.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
And they could have not done that right, just have
a good wrestle Manias one, two, three, and four. The
average match length. People don't know this, but it was
actually three minutes and twelve seconds. Wow, I'm obviously exaggerating,
but it the average match length of the first four
or five Rosumanas was so and by the way, it
was different than people were back then to crying it

(01:35:07):
and it's that it shouldn't be how long match. But
my point is matches were not always this long, and
you can tell the story in a more tidy way
and respect people's time and not burn people out and
not go the way that Tony Khan has with AW
And I mean to be it's a whole differentroblem because
it's a three and a half hour pay per view
with with utter two hours of n rink content. Yeah,

(01:35:27):
because of the commercials. So anyway, I mean not to
get too off track there, but it's a shame that
T and A didn't go, Yeah, we're gonna give you
three hours is plenty, Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
It Sometimes less it's more, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
But so all right, on the aw front, we're likely
to do a pay per view preview. I'm hopefully gonna
work time out that works with Eric Currel this week
to do our normal in depth pay per repreview. So
I'm doing a little bit less than the normal with
you on that because we'll have a whole show dedicated
to it. But I want to give a chance to
talk about what stands out to you here because we've

(01:36:02):
got the Darby Moxley I Quit match, the Mojo challenging
hey man, they had a really good face to face
last week, Tony Stormy, Chris stat Lander. Those are the
top matches. I mean, there's not to discount the other ones,
but yeah, what what stands out to you? And what
are some key talk motes coming out of dnamite last week?

Speaker 3 (01:36:19):
Yeah, I think the biggest for me is the Darby
Moxley match. I look at those two as two sides,
one side of the same coin, because Darby grew up
in a very similar tumultuous household and situation as Moxley.
It's very much the modus operandi of Moxley, who wants

(01:36:42):
to find someone who can finally just put him out
of his misery. And Darby seems to be that person
because he can go as dark and as deep as
Moxley needs him to in order to do so. And
so this I Quit match will be a good reflection
of the depravity of both men and also the heart
of both men. And so I really like that, and
I appreciate that Hangman and Joe just an old school

(01:37:04):
wrestling match. I don't like you because I don't think
you deserve to be champion, and I don't respect you
in a way that I should because there's a little
jealousy Shuore, but a lot of it with Joe is
I need to remind people I'm Samoa freaking Joe, and
You're gonna be the way.

Speaker 5 (01:37:18):
I do that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:19):
And Hangman Page has been. It's so different from his
first reign. His first reign, he was the anxious millennial
cowboy kind of finding himself a little bit like tiptoeing,
you know. I always think about the Line and the Avengers,
where Robert Downeys Junior is talking to the Hulk AND's
or he's a banner at the time, and he's saying,
you know you're tiptoe and big Man, you need to strut.

(01:37:41):
And I feel like in this second title reign and
Hangman Page is strutting, he is leaning into I am
the top guy of this company. I've earned that, and
I've with that, I've earned the ability to step up
and tell you, no, Joe, you might be a legend,
but you don't get to tell me what I deserve.
I'm going to show you in this match why I'm
the world champion. Everything else in the show, I'm kind

(01:38:03):
of like it's gonna be It could be good. It
could be great from a storyline standpoint, more than like,
I think Statlander and Storm will be all right, but
Jurassic Express, Bucks, Fletcher Brisco, sure they're gonna be great.
I need to see, especially after I don't watch Collision.
For those of you who don't know, I don't watch
Collision because between my son playing hockey, coaching football, and

(01:38:26):
just I can only watch so much pro wrestling at
a given time period before my eyes fall out of
my head. Nothing tickled me more weight than watching the
way that Don Kellis family set around the table like
it was a COVID Christmas and they're watching Kenoski. Takesh
to leave a video to talk about how proud he
is for Don's sixty second birthday, and Okada turns it off.

(01:38:51):
You talked about earlier Kyrie and her facial expressions. Okada
smugness and clear disdain for the fact that Takesha had
just won the ACD of GP title. He's like, oh,
couldn't figure out the button and I laughed out loud.
They thought I was just what are you doing? I
was like, that is outstanding, Like I know that's probably

(01:39:12):
something Don said, just trust me, just go with this.
So seeing Brodido versus those two members of the family
specifically wrestle for the tag titles, that's going to be interesting,
especially with Takeshta now at the top of the IWGP
mountain and having said that he has three separate contracts
so he will do every tour for a new Japan

(01:39:33):
to prove he's a fighting champion. Unlike when they had
Moxley is IWGP Championee, it would show up kind of
when aw would afford him to.

Speaker 1 (01:39:44):
Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it to the next level.
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(01:40:05):
Everything with Rich Fan and The Fix with Todd Martin's
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Yesterday is sort of collintr related. Yesterday on the Raw

(01:40:28):
Post show, I talked about, you know, the injury to
Seth and it was a coast to coast really a
move somebody of sess stature needed to do with risk
involved Josh Alexander leaping off the top robe top turnbuckle
awkwardly where obviously they didn't fasten their arms to Abushi's

(01:40:51):
legs the way that they were intending taking a crash
landing that looked dangerous and turned out to be, you know,
genuinely dangerous.

Speaker 3 (01:40:59):
What's that horrific? Yeah, what happened to Bougie?

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
And is so so we talk specifically about that, but
also is it not time for wrestlers to get out
of the star rating merchant the sugar rush of social
media going I was a match of the year, crowds chanting,
fight forever and this is awesome, And get back to

(01:41:23):
protecting yourself, not not doing excessively dangerous moves just for
the sake of see what I did, Look what I
can do, and protect it for the sake of the
fans and yourselves and your colleagues and the company. Stop
doing moves that that have never been done before and
have a high risk factor. And I've had wrestlers tell me,

(01:41:45):
you know, hey, Waite, we know what we're doing. Don't
worry about it. It's like I'm not I'm not at
that place anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:41:51):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:41:51):
It's like, Okay, I trust him because so many people
pull stuff up, and he got will asprey taking time
off and standing in the ring going, uh, what's going on?
In my early thirties and now suddenly things hurt it's like, yes,
everybody told you that, So I ranted about it on
the postal people and check it out if they want
to if they haven't yet. Uh, but I'm kind of
frustrated and I and I feel like it's I'm not
picking on the wrestler because they just sort of get

(01:42:11):
wrapped up in the moment. I'm not picking on the
fans for encouraging it because they trust in the wrestlers.
The buck stops with the boss, the promoters. Yeah, and
I think at the top of the card, you know,
whether it's Tommy Dreamer in TNA or Paul Laveck in WWE,
Tony Kahn obviously in AW, it's not in some locker
room leaders too. Just if such a thing exists these days,

(01:42:33):
everyone so segmented in their own you know, universes or
little mini verses. But yeah, to talk about that, including
again that that horrific and actually describe it to what
happened to code for people who didn't see or read about.

Speaker 3 (01:42:43):
It, Yeah, sure, so, Codo Boushi. Well, first of all,
let me back up Josh Alexander. I was already worried
about Josh Alexander for all the spots because they do
the thing that they do in aw a lot, which
is very anchoring to me, where if a person has
a traumatic injury, you do moves that allow them to
then sell that. So, for instance, Josh Alexander has a

(01:43:05):
really bad neck, really really really really bad neck, and
they do spots where he gets dropped.

Speaker 1 (01:43:11):
On his head. That goes you copyright Brian Danielson.

Speaker 3 (01:43:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean even Daniel sid during that final tour. Ah,
should I wrestle Okata? Tony? Hey, hey man, when are't
you gonna wrestle Ocotta again? You need to wrestle o Katta. Okay,
Now my hand drops stuff randomly. I'm getting the arn
Anderson speech twenty years after the fact, and so that
sort of stuff to me is dumb. A boushie during

(01:43:36):
the spot, so they're trying to do a spot in
the top rope and they fell a boushie broke his femur,
and I don't for those who aren't doctors, like even
when I heard earlier, I was driving and I was
listening to Brian Alvarez talking about it, and I got
physically ill and I had to pull over because that

(01:43:59):
is one of the strongest bones in your body, yep.
And for that to break, that's a lot of force.
So if he had fallen on his neck or his
head or his shoulder.

Speaker 5 (01:44:09):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:44:09):
It is a stereotypical bone. It looks like the stereotypical
bone that a giant dog would be chewing on in
a cartoon. Like it is. It is the It is
that thigh, the upper thigh bone that holds your body up,
and it is thick, and it is durable, and you
don't hear about it breaking much, Nope.

Speaker 3 (01:44:27):
And when it does break, as a Boushie is mentioned
on social media, like I appreciate Tony sending him flowers
and writing a note saying, mister and Boushia, I hope
you get better. Awesome. Here's my problem with this injury.
A boushie is real. As I told the folks in public,
he will wrestle again. In order for him to wrestle again, Wade,

(01:44:48):
it will take a year for him to heal the
female and two additional years to get to the point
where he could get back into the ring. And he
was already messed done.

Speaker 1 (01:45:02):
And it was for a match thrown together on a
b show seen by a couple hundred thousand people on
cable that was not going to be followed up on,
wasn't gonna lead anywhere. And you can have that match
and I'm fine with it, but why are you doing
that spot and why when it's clear you're not getting
the grip you want before exputing the move, why are

(01:45:23):
you still doing it up against at you know, with
the ring barricade in range in a way where you
lose control of what you're doing. It's so, you know,
it's like the whole bucklebom thing with bin Balor and
Seth rollins where it's like if you if you can't
land symmetrically and spread, I mean, it's whole. It's old
thing you learn in judo. You know. It's like how
you take a bump, you want to spread it out

(01:45:44):
and you want symmetry when you fall you want and
that's what happened with Seth with the coast to coast.
He didn't have symmetry. Most moves are out of a
corner at a forty five degree angle on a target
who shifts themselves into a perfect position, breaking the immersion
of the match and making it seem fake because they
know how important it is to be at a perfect
ninety degree angle to the of the contact point as
a person leaves forty five degrees away from the turnbuckle
like symmetry is important. I don't think wrestling fans like

(01:46:07):
watch and think that hard about it, but think about
all the moves. There's always symmetry. You don't power upon
someone on one shoulder, you do it onto two, so
both hands can slap the mat, you can absorb, everything
spreads out, and you have seth doing a coast to
coast and now he's out. You got Josh Alexander doing
something where there's no way, kind of like that the
buckle bomb into the barricade, where if you look backwards
you're gonna lose your symmetry, but if you don't look backwards,

(01:46:27):
you don't know where the barricade is. And now all
these spots in the ring apron is just standard. It
used to be oh my god, don't do that, and
now everyone's doing it all the time, and it does
feel like it's a kind of a crisis mode and
a really bad judgment on the part of veterans to
do moves that don't need to be done. And it's
not because they don't. It doesn't work out most of

(01:46:48):
the time. It's because when it doesn't work out, it
can be.

Speaker 2 (01:46:51):
This and add in I I.

Speaker 3 (01:46:58):
You talk about bosses, right, So this is supposed to
be a storyline where a Bushie's in this match with
Josh Alexander, supposed to set up a tag match with
Kenny Omega and a Bouchie versus two members like BCDF
doesn't matter members of the Kallis family. A Boushie breaks
his fever right, they're checking him out. He mentions on

(01:47:20):
social media he's never felt pain like this, to the
point where he didn't know he had experienced pain like this.
He's like, I could barely move my toes and the
pain is so severe. Mark Davis comes out and punches him.
The continuous storyline that has now been ended by the injury,
and Kenny Omega, clearly disturbed that he now has to

(01:47:42):
continue a storyline when one of his good friends is
legitimately hurt, is chucking everything he can at that dude
in a way that set to me seemed a little unsafe,
because someone's not really in the right state of mind
to be acting, and they are reacting as the famous
saying go, but not in a good way. Yeap, and

(01:48:04):
Tony to say, hey, you know, we're all very grateful
for the Golden Star. In my opinion's one of the
greatest wrestlers I've ever seen. He's adored by the locker room.
We wish him the best recovers from a lego injury
suffers on AW collision tonight, the juice is not worth
the squeeze. No a show that one hundred thousand people
are going to see, maybe eight to twelve hundred people
are going to see live and then you air what

(01:48:25):
it could be the final match to Codeo Aboushie because
y'all couldn't get somebody with the tamara to say stop.

Speaker 1 (01:48:31):
Yeah, there's a recent referees check in to b after
every move that looks like there's a one percent chance
something went wrong and they shouldn't be touched because there
could be an neck injury or an injury or just
being touched or moved can cause further damage. And you
see it if you look for it.

Speaker 3 (01:48:46):
They do.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
The referees are trained on that all the time, and
it was I mean it just Aw didn't have that
in place to the degree that they should have. Yeah,
so all rich you knows want to sneak in. I
know you gotta run.

Speaker 3 (01:49:03):
I don't think I think that rant was enough. I
am looking forward to the pay per view. Yeah, I'm
gonna try to be on for the call with Tony
later this week.

Speaker 1 (01:49:10):
So oh good.

Speaker 3 (01:49:11):
That's where I'm hoping. That will be the question I'm
gonna ask in terms of giving the injury to Bougie
and some of these other major wrestlers, is their uh
capacity to kind of put a governor on things for
shows like Collision at least.

Speaker 1 (01:49:25):
I would say overall, I mean, is it time to die?
Has has everyone proven the point that needs to be proven?
Are there diminishing returns? Isn't it more important for the fans,
for the wrestlers, and for business to have people healthy today,
tomorrow and ten years from now instead of being star
rating merchants and high spot this is awesome chat merchants
and doing things that don't actually result in business improving.

(01:49:49):
I just think we're at that point though we've had
our fun, all Japan had their fun and others those
wrestlers are are are are dead or incapacitated, right, you know,
I mean, you gotta.

Speaker 3 (01:49:59):
Learn that you have Kawata telling Eddie Kingston, don't wrestle
my style, you'll end up a broken old man like me.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Yeah, exactly, like I mean, And again it's it's I
get wrestlers getting wrapped up in it. I mean, I'm
not taking away their agents there in their their culpability
to a degree. And and but I would say fans,
you know, can play a role in this that good good,
good luck heurd you know, coming to a consensus to
hurt or influence that. But you know, because there's so

(01:50:24):
many opinions, so many platforms, and so many people reacting,
but everyone can kind of in their own way. Maybe
don't chant fight forever. Maybe demand wrestling where you want
to see a winner and you want to see the
person win in a reasonable a lot of time. I
know it's a figure of speech, but there is there
is something symbolic about that that's sort of at the
point of kind of irritating me too, even though it's
genuinely meant as an affection, a sign of affection and

(01:50:45):
a compliment. But really it comes down to the promoters,
you know, I mean, they have to they have they
need to be the ones to go the buck stops
with me and here are the guidelines and not let
everyone just you know, be artists doing their doing their thing.
I mean, I go back to Brian Danielson betting a tone.
He's influential in aw and he wrote in his book,
Oh me and Nigel light concussions, but we didn't want
to tell anyone because we want to go have our match.

(01:51:06):
We lied, right, you know. I mean that culture needs
to change or and I think fans should demand it.
I think wrestler should take leadership, but I think promoters
especially are are culpable and responsible for rating them in.
And yeah, I would. I'd like to see Tony address that.
I'm I'm I don't know, you know, based on his
I don't know. I don't want to presume anything that's

(01:51:27):
going on in this head right now. But thanks Rich,
thank you Wade. As always, hope everybody listening to us
on the Free side of things comes back next week
for everything with Rich and Wade pw torch dot com,
slash Go, vip compatible with the Apple podcast stapp thus CarPlay,
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streamable on our ad free VP exclusive website. Also you

(01:51:47):
can sign up through Spotify and Patreon. Full details on
all that at PW torch dot com slash go vip.
We'd love to have you become app member Rich. We'll
talk to you this weekend after the.

Speaker 3 (01:51:57):
Aw pay per view sounds great.

Speaker 1 (01:52:17):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. You can follow us
on Twitter at PW Torch and follow me at the
Wade Keller That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 7 (01:52:40):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis for
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(01:53:02):
all your favorite secondary apps. Or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW Boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:53:11):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 4 (01:53:35):
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(01:53:56):
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(01:54:19):
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Speaker 1 (01:54:36):
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