NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Fann discuss AEW Continental Classic preview, WWE Survivor Series preview, AEW Full Gear, Cornette-Ricochet spat

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:37):
Now, pw Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Rich We are in between AW four Gear and WWB
Survivor Series, so let's look past both of them and
talk about out the Continental Classic. AW released the video
of the not Brackets, the Leagues. I guess the blocks
the blocks for the Continental Classic, which is a round
robin tournament. There's two groups of six wrestlers. They all

(02:14):
fight each other once, so everybody in a block fights
everybody else once. They keep score two points for a win,
one point for a draw. Zero points for a loss,
of course, and then the top point getter in the
Gold League faces the second best point getter in Blue,
and the top vote getter or point getter in the
Blue League faces the second back up the second place

(02:36):
finisher in Gold. The winner of both those matches and
face off in the finale to become the twenty twenty
five Continental Champions. I just wanted to review that. And
nobody has a lot at ringside. They said, anyone who
shows up at ringside or interferes in a match will
be banned from AW forever. So let's let's go through
the Blue League in the Gold League lineup all.

Speaker 3 (02:54):
We get into the leagues. This is very pandemic. But
also along with what you just asked, have they decided
did if this is going to be like it was
the first year with Eddie Kingston, where every match is
a defense for Okada or is it solely he's now
vacated the title and the winner gets that title?

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Good question. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
Uh. I figured they were going to be vague on that,
because they were. They they're even vague on that with Eddie.
At first he said he was going to defend it,
and then it was no, it's just at the end,
but then he would put the Ring of Honor title.
It was a thing. So I just wanted to make sure,
like for mental like be ready for oh my god,
this person won the Continental title in the middle of
the Classic, and.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Does does the fact that they merged to titles change
make it seem less likely that they would be put
at put on the line throughout the tournament?

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, per Tony, even though the Unified Championship, that is,
for those unaware, the Continental title and the International title
are joined, they are still separate entities, with the third
belt representing both. So if he were to lose the
Continental title, the International title would still be in his possession.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Interesting, Okay, the breath before that, it's it's so yeah, yeah,
because Jason Powell asked that question, I want to say
two pay per views ago, and Tony gave that answer,
and my eyes just lam into.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
The back of my head and I just lost consciousness
for a few minutes.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yes, yes, okay, So we have in the We'll start
with the gold bracket, Kazuchiko Cotta, Darby, Allen, Kyle Fletcher, Speedball,
Mike Bailey, Kevin Knight and Pack and then in the
Blue League we have Kenoski, Takeshta, Claudio Chastagnoli, John Moxley,
Orange Cassidy Moscow Dorada, and Roderick Strong. To me, Rich,

(04:51):
the Gold League is stronger the the people who are
there to take losses, which is Speedball and Kevin Knight
in particular, are more novel, have more novel matchups, and
work a kind of a fresher style, I would say,
against the mix of opponents than the Blue League, where
you have Roderick Strong in Orange, Cassidy who's just been
around a long time, they'll probably I mean, he'd say

(05:12):
it about Orange, but he's probably gonna take quite a
few losses here, and then Claudio maybe two out in
Derata possibly too. But to me, the Blue League is
weaker both from a star power standpoint and a star
power depth standpoint in terms of who can seriously make
it to the finals and matchup wise less attractive, I think,

(05:33):
just in general. But I don't think I like any
wide marchin or anything like that. But I think Gold
is stronger. So I had a lot of talking to
kind of set it up. Tell me what your talking
points are coming out of all this news.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
Well, I think first thing I would say is I
am always and I try not to be a curd
mudgin about it, but since the Continental Classic is their
version of the G one or the Champions Carnival or
the N one, whatever, whatever round robin tournament you feel like,
but I I think, given Tony's interest into predilections, I
go G one. My first issue is there are not

(06:06):
enough wrestlers in this and that sounds counterintuitive, but it's
what you just talked about. Is one of the main
reasons to me, when you have a bigger round robin tournament,
it isn't as clear who the people who are going
to eat the pens are and it adds jeopardy for
some of the bigger names to be in some of
the better matches. For instance, I go back to say

(06:27):
the G one twenty five, which was twenty sixteen, and
he had a ten person roster in both blocks, highlighted
by Okata and one Omega and the other Tana Hashi's
in there. Mar Fuci at the time was a surprise
from note but you need to have And that's why
Maskaira Dourada being the only surprise is a little off
put into me because they have so much relationship with

(06:49):
New Japan. Can you not get and I understand it's
the tour leading to the January Show. You couldn't get
a Sonata or a Fallet or someone where it's a
name but not big of enough of a name that
you have to protect them and they can be the
foreign star that eats losses while showing folks what their

(07:12):
move said is and gives them an ability to kind
of like show how many alliances AW has given the
go ahead.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
No, well, no, no, finish your thought. I thought you
were puzzling there.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Oh no I was, but you know me, I was
just gonna wonder.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Well, okay, so I'll just say as far as the
depth goes, I was sort of over it this year.
Not because it's better and not because I think it's good,
but just it's been established. Like I think our disappointment
isn't there. It would have been a pleasant surprise if
they just put every top person in it. But we know,
I mean, it's just it is not the g one.
It is not every top you know, We're not gonna

(07:48):
put ten of our top twelve wrestlers in it. We're
gonna put five of our top twelve wrestlers in it,
and the others are gonna be feuding in other ways
because we don't want to give away a bunch of
matchups and ask a bunch of egos to do jobs.
You could construct a super compelling like depth chart if
you had Hangman and Bobby Lashley in there, and we're

(08:11):
Strickland in there. I mean, just people who you know,
are perceived as higher than with all the respects, Speedball
and Roderick's wrong, but that's not what they're doing. That's
not what the tournament is. And you know, I was
gonna say for better for worse, it's not really the
right use of that term, because it's it is a

(08:31):
philosophical decision by the booker to have the tournament not
be as prestigious but fill a lot of TV time
and not put him in a conundrum of giving away
matches he wants to save so that there's a novelty
the first time they happen, and not having to confront
people who might not might not want to do jobs,

(08:52):
or Tony might not want doing jobs even if they're willing.
So it just kind of is what it is. And
so I came into this just going and because This
doesn't defy logic. It just is precedented. Now, this is
what the tournament is. It's it's I wish there's, you know,
a really good explanation for why the field is what

(09:13):
it is and why people are in it and not
in it. And I think that would be a really
compelling story to tell every year. But I think he's
decided it's more trouble than it's worth. And like a
lot of things in pro wrestling, and a w in particular,
you know, they just want to keep you good matches.
They don't want you to think too hard about the
why and how.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, and and to your point, one of the things
I thought about is because that is my yearly greape.
So I just wanted to get that out of there.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's fair to do.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
I was.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'm not disappointed he brought it up. I think it's good.
I'm sort of explaining why it didn't. It wasn't my
lead because I just don't have it in me to
complain for the third year old, I.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
Got it in me. I got and I think, to
Tony's credit, there's also a reason why I look at
this roster and it makes sense to do it the
way they're doing it is because the Continental Classic. Again,
for those of you unaware, this year, it's gonna be
a six week essentially tournament from now until Christmas. After Christmas,

(10:12):
and so the one issue he runs into where I
completely sympathize and understand why he's not gonna fire all
the rounds out of the gun, so to speak. They're
getting preempted by football bowl games. There isn't a dynamite
that isn't a double negative. Almost every dynamite in December

(10:34):
is getting moved. Almost every collision is getting moved. And
because of that, not only are you risking killing matches
that it might be money matches, but doing so at
a timeframe where your audience might not even see it
to justify it. And so I think that's absolutely fair. Now,
starting with the Gold League, I think there are some

(10:55):
really good stories between the Callous family and three members
that could possibly, you know, ruin it for each other.
The feud between Darby, Kevin Speedball and the other heels
Pack and Darby given the pay per view results and

(11:16):
some of the things we'll get into later, and I
believe they'll be one or two if that wins for
Kevin or Speedball just to allow them to say, you know, yeah,
good game. And maybe from a storyline purpose be the
spoiler to someone who feels like they're the prohibited favorite.

(11:36):
Maybe Okada's in second place because Kyle Fletcher's ahead of him,
and Speedball steals a win and that puts Okada in front,
and now he has an opportunity to be in the
matchup he wants. And you know, the finals that are
pretty much seems predictive, but you know, sometimes Chalk is good.
And then in the Blue League, as much as I

(11:58):
I'm Old, seems to be the superior league, Blue has
a better story. Though, after watching that pay per view
and after watching some of the other stuff, after the
videos and such, John Moxley has a problem on his hands.
His As much as we were talking about Pack being
the person, I think it's Claudio because I at the

(12:21):
end of that match, I have not seen that outside
of like a Really I want to give them full
credit because it was so subtle. It took me two
or three replays to get what was happening. Where Moxley
had the team leave through the crowd, the death riters
leave through the crowd. Moxley left Marina left, everyone else stopped.

(12:43):
Claudio imperceptibly nods and then they hop the fence mh.
And that is the beginning of the end for John Moxley.
I think this tournament is built for him to step
on rakes left, right, and center, and Claudio is going
to be one of the main rakes that are gonna
set him up failure, and by the time we get
to the end of this he's he's gonna be out

(13:06):
of his own group. I think the Deaf Riders will
finally send him on his old yellow trip that these
babyfaces have kind of forced his hand on, and then Takeshta.
I'm very interested in what goes on in that final
because you're putting what could be if if Chalk plays

(13:28):
out the semi main participant and the main event participant
of the January show for New Japan against each other.
And as I was saying before, with loaning the roster,
essentially Gato is loaning his story because if you have

(13:49):
in case of Canos, Canos get to Keshta, the IWGP
heavyweight champ, and he eats any losses to this crowd
leading into January fourth, that seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
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If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
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(14:26):
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and ask us specific questions. Wade Keller podcast at pw
torch dot com. Explore that too, because in Japan in

(14:47):
current culture, how much are the Japanese fans tuned in
to and caring about It doesn't seem right the right term,
but like considering strongly as part of CAM in the
the the win loss record of their current top champion
is that is do they do they compartmentalize and go, well,

(15:07):
that's not happening here. We don't really count it, but
it's interesting or is it like this is this is
uh in a front to everything New Japan stands for.
To have our champion losing once or twice or even
go whatever in this American tournament.

Speaker 3 (15:22):
I would say it's not as much the fans as
the wrestlers, because if you call when Moxley was champion,
there was a situation where aw Haad and IWGP title
match on a collision, and I want to say it
was in the spring, and one of the wrestlers in
a kind of off the cuff as they will in
New Japan post match promo mentioned how is it I

(15:42):
have to wrestle in a tournament to get a title shot?
And some schmuck on aw for lack of a better word,
obviously they didn't say schmuck. Maybe it was a Japanese
word for schmuck can just get a title match whenever
they want. How are these outsiders determining what shin Nihan
can do like that? That that was like word for word,
and that at the time, I want to say that
was a couple of folks.

Speaker 5 (16:04):
That was.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
And then that's exacerbated now with Takeshta because there are
a lot of in terms of fan base, there has
been a lot of fans who've rejected him and see
him as an AEW outsider with their title. And in
his first title match, when there was a celebration and
a surprise, I guess if you listen to the English announcers,

(16:28):
they thought it was going to be fifty to fifty
with Booze, but the fans were pretty much behind him
to the point where after he won the title he
had to say, I don't care who booze or cheers me,
and there were mainly tears. There wasn't any boot. He
was trying real hard to kind of engender the reaction
they thought he would get, but that reaction has since
been transferred throughout any of his other appearances because they

(16:49):
see him as a person who's not doing all the
tours he says he will, but he says he has
both contracts, but being in a match, and I'm assuming
when you look at the gold and the Blue, the
final is going to be Keshta Okada, Okada doesn't have
and I need folks to understand it because I see
a lot of this on social media. Akada doesn't have
a new Japan contract anymore. So as much as he's

(17:11):
a part of the fabric in the history of New Japan,
but wrestling, he's very much not the guy that was
wrestling Kinney Omega eight nine years ago. And while the
wrestling fans see his match against Tanahashi as this awesome farewell,
I think there's a double ed sword because now Takeshta
is again this is going into some deep New Japan history.

(17:35):
Close to ten fifteen years ago, there was supposed to
be a match between Nito for his IWGP title shot,
and then I believe it was Nakamura defending his IWGP
in a continental title and they put it to fan
vote because they felt like Nito didn't have the kind
of star power to be a main eventor how soon

(17:55):
things change, right, and so that led him on the
path that ultimately made him the Kona class that he
was before he left New Japan. Takeshta being put in
position where Okada is saying in the media and saying
out loud, I want to be in the main event
with tana Hashi, and that would force ta Keshta to
the semi main, which hasn't really been done. That is

(18:19):
one thing, but if let's say for the sake of argument,
Okada beats him in the C two. That also is
pretty egregious kind of hopefully Gato, you know, clearly Gato
would have approved it, and they've worked together their partners.
I don't think Tony would ever do anything to plicitus
in that regard, obviously, But that's a lot of that's

(18:40):
a lot of plate spinning, because it's not like, let's
flip it if you're going into full gear, if you're
going into all out, if you're going into all in
and you're loaning out John Moxley to lose to I
don't know, evil or something like that. In New Japan,
I think a lot of AW fans would feel hard done.

(19:02):
But when these similar things have happened and are happening
for New Japan, I don't feel that much of a pushback.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
What is the what are palatable ways to get through
this or just Takesha. Does Takeshta need to run the
table and just win everything to avoid this, or is
there another path through the types of finishes draws like

(19:31):
Takeshta doesn't even make it to the semifinals because all
his matches are draws and he only accumulates one point
in these twenty minute matches. I mean, I mean, I'm
trying to be like sort of creative outside the box.
You're like, how how pertinent do you think it? This
is totin not a great way, but like, yeah, is
it essential for Tony con to work his way around

(19:51):
this or is there some wiggle room and if so,
what is that in order to avoid the unfortunate timing
of the politics of this.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
I think the room is the fact that Tony's storyline
lends itself perfectly to Takeshta trying to run the table
to one up Okada as they're looking at each other's
results across the league. I think that's the best way
to do it. Looking at the league, Moxley, to me,
is the only person he can afford to lose to
because another former IWGP champion, someone who has a good

(20:22):
relationship with New Japan and someone would be an understandable loss.
Everyone else, I think would be an a mathemat of
what they're trying to do for January fourth.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, Now, could is there a scenario work? Because it's
a second place finisher faces in one face as a
top guy and the other could they could have caught
in to cash to meet in the semi finals and
get away in having escape there where either to cash
Kata win or it to move to the finals. That
helps avoid the politics at all, because you could then

(20:54):
have a Moxley or a Park or somebody be in
the finals against Okada and Takesha would take one life,
but then it would be to a non new Japan
contract Wressler. So then, but with Takesha beats Okata in
the semi finals, does that help anything politically, especially if
Takeushta then I don't know, I mean, I don't I'm

(21:15):
trying to think of a scenario where if they don't
meet in the finals, there's maybe a softer landing politically,
unless it except for the option of Kesha running the table.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
But yeah, and the way Tony has booked Okada, even
despite the silliness that the C two is him going
back to a C C squared, I guess because he too.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
Really, I just like saying the condo classic because I
think all the abbreviations are I'm not I don't mind it.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
But then you have I don't know, and he was
the original person that was the C squared, So it's
I'm stuck mentally from my shortcuts. Uh Ko Kevin Owens
because Okada, I don't know, you'd be the judge, uh
I think for me looking at the way the store
where he could hang, having Okata and Takesha in the

(22:03):
final makes the most sense, Takeshta beating Okada and having
him chagrined going into January fourth show where then Okada
is in the main event against Tanahashi, where he can
then give him the middle finger on the way into
the main event. As you know, let's say Takeshta beats

(22:23):
his his challenger. That wouldn't that would continue both storylines
without either feeling aggrieved. But you know, the thing for
me is they knew what they were getting into when
Takesha was given the title, So I would just hope
they have a plan that shows a lot more respect

(22:46):
to the IWGP champion than I feel like a lot
of this because he really should be. Like when we
talked about Okada being signed by AW Takeshta as IWGP champion,
given that this company was built on a baby that
was mid South ECW in New Japan, especially with the
roster when you look at their sem my main and
main inventors that is the twenty sixteen to twenty twenty

(23:08):
New Japan main event roster went healthy. I would hope
that they show a little bit more respect that That's
where my kind of frustrations lie with this.

Speaker 1 (23:19):
Should Tony con feel pressure and not do what everybody
expects and just have Ocata and to Kesta in the final?
Like is or is that it's okay? Like you don't
want every year for people to be like it's obviously
what it's going to be. But if they just have
really good matches and you know, they tell a story
that doesn't feel self conscious about the predictability of the outcome,

(23:40):
you can still go on the ride and if it
ends up to Questro Kata, so be it? Like I mean,
is that a big deal? Or if you're Tony Kana,
you look for a because they could do an injury angle,
they could have Takeshta have a minor injury that causes
him to leave the tournament if they want to avoid
the politics and just go a different directions people kind

(24:00):
of expect, And so I just throw that out there,
like you could do an injurying or something like that.
Should or is there is there a big enough negative
to it just ending up out of the cash cash
to wins that Tony should avoid that because it might
some people might see that as sort of making a
mockery the whole thing when you just the ending is
exactly what most people expect due to the storyline that's

(24:21):
built in and the politics that you've just discussed. You know,
a savvy fan and I think a lot of AW
fans are savvy it to this degree, you're going to go, yeah,
we know what it's going to be. Does that take
too much of the fun out of it? So we
should look for a b plant.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Now because when you look at the historical uh sentiments
of the Continental Classic, you have basically seen shock. There
hasn't been too many cases in the last few years
where it's, oh no, this guy came out of nowhere.
When you look at the first year, Eddie Kingston over Moxley,

(24:55):
that was probably the biggest surprise. The second ye Okada
and Osprey again another main event we had seen, but
now we got to see it in AAW this year.
Okada Takeshta makes makes sense because then he would be
the person Okada that has the opportunity to go back

(25:16):
to back and that story because then Takesha's taking Something
from Okada and going back to back and the literal title.
Okada would then, in my opinion, based on the storyline,
take something the significance of the January fourth show title
match from Takeshta by being in the main event with

(25:39):
Tanahashi which is a once in a lifetime event, one
of the biggest stars in the history of the company
retiring would warrant going in the main event. I think
that's a fair move if they were to take that,
And so just because it's chock doesn't mean it's bad.
If anything, I feel like that's if it's gonna give
people more anticipation the world's end to see that.

Speaker 6 (26:04):
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Speaker 1 (26:36):
All right, let's break into the conversation and introduce the show.
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(27:20):
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(28:48):
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exclusive show. He writes columns for PW Torch and helps
out in many other ways, and he is here generally
every three or four weeks on the Flagship, and this
is one of those weeks where we essentially simulcast everything
and the Flagship merge them into one so that you
can get a sample of our approach to analyzing and

(29:08):
discussing wrestling. If you enjoy this conversation today, go VIP
to hear us every week on Everything with Rich and Wade,
a VIP exclusive show with no commercial interruptions also, which
is kind of a nice bonus of VIP membership. All Right,
so we got a lot more to get to. We're
going to talk all about Survivor series, where we're going
to preview that the Wargames matches, the John Cena Dom match.
We'll talk about the pent injury and the follow up

(29:29):
from that, different ways this tournament can go to determine
who's seen his last opponent will be. We'll also get
into the spat online between Ricochet and Jim Cornette. We'll
talk about Brock taking a tumble on Raw last night,
and more on AW coming up first, So let's get
to it. Thanks everybody for joining us, and now we'll
get back to our conversation. Always always, you can email
us at the Flagship Wadekeller Podcast at gmail dot com

(29:52):
if you have questions, comments, topics, suggestions, or otherwise related
to the show Wadekeller Podcast at gmail dot com, aside
from the outcome and the politics and the booking, and
just talk about are there some matches that you're most
looking forward to now that we see the Gold LEAKU
and Blue League, Like there are there some Ocada opponents
that feel like, Yeah, this Okada against that wrestler at

(30:13):
this stage is really intriguing or just a sleeper of
a match, like oh Pock and Mike Bailey, that's gonna
be your like whatever anything along those lines jump out
to you.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
He almost took one pacin Okada. Yeah, I want to
see what speed Okada takes it, because if he's serious
about that match, and it seems like he will be
for the Cotten Classic, he can go back to his
lucha roots and go move from move with Poc as
Poc is in his quote unquote bastard mode, and instead

(30:42):
of going with so many Luca he goes or high flying,
he goes with his more impact style, and I think
that would be a nice switch up Fletcher and Poc
another one, really, Pok's got a couple from me, and
then Kevin Knight and Darby Allen. I think that will
be a fun and showcase between two baby faces. And
then in the Blue League Moxley Claudio is underscored for me.

(31:09):
Taqushta and Strong is another one. And just because of
my ring of honor roots Roderic and Claudio.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, all right, cool, We got time to talk about
this and obviously we'll be covering it a week by
week here. Anything else you want to bring up? Obviously
you know one one subplot can be the death Writer's
story with Claudio pocket Moxie all on the tournament, so
they'll have opportunities to tell that story, especially as it

(31:40):
relates to Moxley and Claudio because they will face each other.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, and then again, as I mentioned earlier the Don
Calli's family story of as it gets later in the tournament,
does Don expect one of them to kind of take
a dive?

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Hmm?

Speaker 3 (31:57):
And what does he do if he loses even more
control over Okada or Takeshta because it seems like Okada
is always the antagonist and Takeshta's responses are seen as
the aggression. And so that's very much a a sports
dad like he's he's very much pulling a Fritz von
Eric with the other boys, like trying to show who's who,

(32:18):
who loves me more, who's going to be the champ?

Speaker 1 (32:21):
All right, let's let's shift to the big news coming
out of AW Saturday Night at full Gear, which was
the title change to Mojoe beating Hangman Page I reported
earlier today in the Weight Color News bulletin the podcast
and the PDF and written formats that in my top
story that this the decision for the title change was
made more than a month ago. And that's interesting. It

(32:45):
means you know, it wasn't about ratings or I need
a shot in the arm, or I wanted to distract
from something else going on. It was this is part
of a laid out, you know, semi long term plan
that Joe's he'll turn in, the rematch with Hangman and
the title change all are leading to something else. And
obviously we know with Sworth Strickland showing up and that
he will be incorporated into that in some form or fashion,

(33:06):
probably one on one, but they could revisit the three
way also with Joe, Swerve and Hangman also or instead,
So rich Base, I just want to throw. Do you
get your reaction to that title change, which obviously surprised
almost everyone who is paying attention, And what where you
think Tony Kahan is going with the parts here? It
doesn't mean it doesn't mean Swerve is the one he's

(33:27):
gonna upset Joe, but it does mean TK wants Swerve
in the mix with Joe right away, and then it
can go a lot of places from there. Joe could
retain or Swerve could win it, and then what does
that set up? And is that worth it? Given where
Hangman was? It does this damage Hangman? So a lot
of talking points. Give me your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Sure, I'll start with Hangman as the outgoing champion. I
don't think it hurt him. I think it is relatively short,
and that is disappointing. I look at what could happen
next for him though, and if anything that POSSI from
this reign was he left it and you're wanting more
as opposed to wondering what his next character was going

(34:08):
to because we were threw a call the last time
he went into the drinking and he was the alcoholic
millennial cowboy and anxious and all that. Now he was
just a guy who looked like he was a top
champion on any wrestling show worthy of your respect and adulation.
Bat Dog will hunt nine times out of ten, and
so you just keep that going. Now, him going from

(34:30):
that to dealing with Hook, as you mentioned earlier, that's
a bit of a downgrade and I can't see it
any other way. But then when you enter if Swerve,
for instance, were to win the title, the idea of
a face swirl and a face page fighting for the title,

(34:50):
where there's no more hatred, it's all respect, but it's
just you have something I need and I have something
I want to keep. I think that's a pretty cool
story to have. Swerve also changed his body too. He
looks he looks in pretty pretty, pretty good shaped like
he's pretty thick up top, and that that also helps

(35:11):
him in terms of seeming like a different person coming in.
We'll see how he looks with the move set and
all that. Joe. I joked with a friend the idea
that you now have these ring and then funny enough,
Chris Daniels put up a social media post I want
to say it was today where it was a picture

(35:31):
with himself, aj Styles, Frankie Kazarian and Samoa Joe and mentioned,
you know, when I took this picture of Ring of Honor,
three of the four people have a title and one
of them is lucky to be along on the journey
for the other three. And yeah, it's a heck of
a story that Joe is two time champ, Frankie Kazarian

(35:53):
is the champ over an Impact, and I think it's
a very similar story of Frankie where you didn't anticipate
he would actually be anything outside of the Defense of
the Month and he goes and wins it. And now
the dogs, you know, got the rear end of the car.
What does he do with it? Next? Same thing with
Joe now that he's turned heel he's got the belt.

(36:17):
How does his promost change? What is his mo o
or what is his reason to be as champion? I
mean you bled a lot. I mean that I get it.
He put blood equity into the title. But what's now
the reign of Joe and what's the story behind the

(36:37):
A guy like Hook turning on him and then turning
back toward him. Was this all a ruse? Was it
one of those tried and true we were just pretending
to hate each other and now we're cool.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
And to what ends?

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Right?

Speaker 1 (36:52):
I said all the time, bookers should go to what ends?
Because Hook, if it's a ruse, Hook gained nothing from it,
Joe gained nothing from it. Hoo could have run on
the cage as a Joe friend the whole all along.
He never broke away. He could have done the same
thing to hang out. There was nothing that benefited There
was no benefit to the ruse in the end. The way, Yeah,

(37:12):
which is you? You know too many wrestlers shouldn't be
in the business of trying to surprise fans or play gotcha.
I mean, like you don't go and break up with
your partnership for no reason. I mean it's just in
other words, it just comes across as as a misdirection
for the sake of misdirection, because surprises are good and

(37:33):
that's hack and trite and played out and tired and
not sophisticated booking, and so I don't know how they
get out of it because you know what, you don't
want we fooled you. It's like, yeah, but to what ends?
I mean, I mean that's the phrase of the ear
for me for booking is to what ends are you
doing things? Because if the answer is, well, we trick
the fans, that's just stupid. They should care about that. Yeah,

(37:54):
it's the wrestler's storyline. I shouldn't care about it, is
my point. It doesn't make sense in canon.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
I saw on social media someone wrote, you know, Rustling
fans hate being worked, and I don't think it's that.
It's it's just I look at it is. If you
ever watched the show Arrested Development, there was a character
j Walter Weatherman. Do you remember him, Wade?

Speaker 1 (38:23):
It's been so long, I mean, okay, just when I.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Described him in a second, you'll remember him instantly. He
was the guy that the bluth dad would hire to
teach the kids lessons and he was one armed, so
at some random point he would be in front of
him in his arm or get ripped off. But he
was an amputee, and he's like, and that's why you
don't turn the leave the lights on when you go
to bed. Yeah, And that was that he would always
do that, and then you know, you know, George would

(38:51):
like just nod approvingly, and then his wife would lose
her mind because yet again he showed up to teach
him a lesson, and it was just like, you know,
the crazy and that's what I feel like those sorts
of turns and swerves do for a wrestling. You're not
doing anything other than showing me you can shock me
and that shot goes nowhere.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Or if you're not, you know, I keep your eye
on the ball, which is everything just makes sense in
a world that exists outside of the wrestlers caring about
how the fans react to anything, right, and.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
If you want the interaction and you want the social media, great,
but does that turn into money? Does that turn into
seats where someone hates what happens so much that they
want to see that guy get their butts get It's like, not, congrats,
you played yourself yeah, like.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
If you do, if you're pretending to a flee flick er,
I don't know if anyone does that anymore in the NFL.
And and in the end at backfire it backfires or six,
it doesn't even matter, and you're like, it didn't fool
the other team. But you're like, yeah, but we fooled
the fans. They didn't know what we were doing. And
like every the fans would be so bad, Like you
did something a dangerous play that had that wasn't didn't

(39:58):
make sense to do it, didn't keep own a benefit.
There were meta plays to be had, but you did
it because you wanted the fans to be surprised when
the full back tossed the quarter the ball back to
the quarterback to throw it or whatever. I don't even
remember what the fleet I can't remember. Yeah you got it, okay, good?
Was it a fullback or who it could be?

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Full back? Half back? It's it's impressed.

Speaker 7 (40:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
So yeah, you like you never want the coach to
be bragging after that play. I mean, it was risky
and there was you know, we had better place who
could have run, But boy did we surprise the fans.
Like so wrestlers like the stakes should be too high
that fans should ever be thinking in that meta sense.
They did it to surprise us. I mean it, I'm
you know, I'm yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Here's here's one that hopefully no respect for that, because
I could tell you it happened in real time. And
I was at a wedding reception Saturday for my friend Lexi,
and my brain just melted because Chris, who works here
also at the Torch, sent me a text that our
alma mater pit was in a game and they did
a fake punt. And this was the most obvious fake punt.

(41:03):
I've coached high school for twenty years, and I have
never seen children run a fake punt more obvious than this.
Where the snapper, for those of you who don't watch football,
punts a kick. While you're kicking the ball away, the
snappers angled toward the up back to snap it to him,
so there isn't any duplicity there. Like you can see
the long snappers aiming for the other guy before he

(41:24):
snaps the ball, and so the other Georgia Tech calmly
tackles that guy as soon as he gets the ball,
and then they go on to score. I was like
that was the dumbest and that's actually what the coach says,
like I was looking to surprise him, like you surprised. No,
And so from a restless tapot, whether it's if you

(41:45):
don't want to look at what's going on with the
turn of hook, if you look at any of what
went down with the I'm trying to think of another
good swerve that was just done for swerve's sake and
not strickling like actual storyline. The whole thing with the

(42:08):
title with honestly to me, having Mercedes lose and having
Tony Storm lose to Chris Statlander because now you have
this person. I bet you thought she was gonna lose this.
Oh no she didn't, right, I bet you thought she was. Nope,
she didn't. But the flip side of that from a

(42:31):
booking standpoint is now you have someone who has shown
in storyline to be superior to two of your biggest
women stars, and I don't know if she's up to
the task. I mentioned when she won the title from
Tony that I would hope that they had a story
to show that hopefully this is part of that journey.
But if it isn't, and it's just continually you thought this,

(42:52):
so we're gonna zag. I don't know how that helps
in the long run anybody, But yeah, back to hook,
I don't think Hooks at a level of his career
yet with him turning as much as this is helpful
to him either from a career standpoint.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I'm watching as it airs.

(43:36):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to wwepayperviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a
detailed written report with star ratings, and of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more. Check
it out pwtorch dot com. Your first stop for TV

(43:58):
and pay per views, written reports, and does it I mean,
is it is Hook a important enough name to be
the the you know, inflection point in a major world

(44:23):
title storyline. I mean, Hook was huge four years ago
or five years ago, whatever it was, and he's coming
out to dead crowd reactions with kind of self indulgently
bad wrestling entrance music and like, it's it's cool unless
you have a live audience that is not reacting to it. Now,
it's it's like, you can do something you think fits

(44:45):
your character, but if it runs totally countraproductive to seeming
like you're over, like anyone cares about you, you kind
of have to pick something else. I just don't know that.
I mean, I'm not against Folk getting a push and
being in storylines, but I don't know that the ex
world Campion Hangman Page should go from being the centerpiece
of baby Face World Champion to trying to get revenge

(45:05):
against Hook. I don't know that Hook has shown himself
to be worth that spot. I'm happy to be proven
wrong if he steps up and the crowds are into this,
But I mean, I mean, like if they're pushing Hook
because nobody saw it coming, like as opposed to This
makes sense and like you say, Richard, it will draw
money and put butts in seats. Just it's sort of

(45:26):
an eye roll decision by the booking.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
Yeah, and time will tell, as always with a lot
of these stories, and he has so much time ahead
of him career wise where this isn't going to be fatal.
But there needs to be a little bit more. As
you mentioned in your report, if there was a long
term plan for Joe winning this, there has to be
a long term plan for where do we see Hook

(45:50):
next year, the year after. That's how I look at it.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
But Hook is not good enough in the ring or
on the microphone to be somebody that you would push
as a competitive opponent. Hangman Page, I'm disappointed that's the case,
but it is demonstrably true. I mean, he's not, he's
just he's not. He's if he was if he wasn't
very good in the ring, and he wasn't very good
on the mic, but he was really over Okay, I

(46:17):
get it. I'm not I'm I'm not against that. It's
about making money and getting a crowd reaction, but none
of the three like he's not getting good crowd reactions.
He hasn't come along in the ring where he's a
top level guy, and on the microphone he's been a
little bit better, but he's been all over the place,
So I don't know, uh, but you know, I mean, yes,
we will see what they have in mind, but I'm

(46:39):
fearful they're ever either being too optimistic or aggressive and
pushing hook because they just feel the need to freshen
some things up, or they did it for the swerve
for the sake of a swerve that doesn't actually make
booking sense, because they gained nothing from it in the
canon of the world they live in. They only got

(46:59):
some thing out of it because people are like, oh,
I didn't see that coming. And bookers who pride themselves
on tricking the fans because they have this weird obsession
with being predictable and trying to avoid that. I mean,
you're the job of drawing money. You're not in the
job of fooling people online or in crowds. I mean

(47:20):
that the fooling people and tricking people and doing, you know,
surprising people isn't showing to draw money. I mean you
have to be a suited of the business to like,
if you expect to thrive. So I don't know, but
I mean we'll review it on a month and see
kind of where they are. Yeah, um, what what else

(47:46):
from fulgear stood out rich?

Speaker 3 (47:47):
You know?

Speaker 1 (47:47):
In terms? I mean it was a I'd rent last
week in the wake Coln News Bolton that that I
thought this would be even though it was not a
show that was highly anticipated for like big Time matches.
It wasn't like an obvious just killer me event or
Top three matches that were just like, oh I got
to order the show, I wrote. I looked at the
lineup and I'm like this, this looks like an event
that can set the course for the rest of the

(48:08):
year in twenty and to start twenty and twenty six
and ways a lot of pap per views, don't I
think there was some pivotable moment, potentially pivotal moments in
terms of decisions like like you mentioned the stat Lander
Mercedes for instance, Joe and Hangman. It was more was
not something I saw coming, and it added to my
point that this was a newsworthy show, you know. Anyway,

(48:30):
I could go through the host bit I wrote about
last week, So well, how about you, Like, were you surprised,
pleased and just sort of what's your take on some
of the match outcomes in the fact that this event
that might not do a great by rate and I
don't think was a great show, turned out to be
certainly agenda setting for the booking.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
Yeah, first thing I would say is we already talked
about Joe. I would jump to Mark Brisco Mark in
a no DQ match, beating Kyle Fletcher and winning the
TNT Championship, and notably post match, having the conversation in
the post Q and A where he talked about not

(49:10):
even wanting to wrestle after his brother died. Was as
always Mark risco Is. I mentioned it from the spots,
but I think those the conversation he's had postmatch. He
is and could be in the very best ways, and
not just in the I'll do spots for the bigger stars.
He could be there Mick Foley, and that is a

(49:31):
very cool spot to have on your roster where you
if you can do it at without the expense of
Marks Botty, Kyle O'Reilly beating Moxy and talked about it
a little bit ago when it came to the way
that Claudio and company had to kind of had a
little that's the right word, not mutiny, but it's mutinous behavior.

(49:52):
They're mutiny adjacent. They're getting there, and so I like that,
and I like the fact that of Riley got a
little bit, but hopefully they do something with that. The
Casino Gauntlet match, I'm kinda that the concepts kind of
I think it's cool, but I didn't feel this one

(50:12):
as much. And I'll get into a little bit later
or whenever you tell me works for you. The post
win by Ricochet after having lost so quickly to Bobby
Very money in the bank winner cashing in the title,
so he's going to go on a losing streak for
three months.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
I thought, I thought the efficient and I destroyed so
much of what was built up with Ricochet because Rickhet
was not a top star in WWE. He was a
guy who lost a lot. He wasn't a he hadn't
established himself as a mid carter. And then he goes
to AW and he starts getting more of a push,
and people were understandably skeptical that this was a good
use of resources because he had been to fined down
so much in WWE. And then you had the politics

(50:56):
of how scorched Earth MVP Bobby Lashian Elton Benjamin are
in the perception that they just blow things up in
selfish ways. Whatever's going on with MJF m VP on commentary,
which you know, continues to be an issue in terms
of how he doesn't seem to understand, especially as a babyface,

(51:18):
what he should be stressing on uncommentary. He's saying things
that absolutely undercut what his goal collectively should be if
he's a team player, something that Dennis Klein wrote about
in aw Rising and Fading Stars on PW Torch today,
I thought, really eloquently, he actually came up with a

(51:39):
potential solution to it too, to better utilize m VP.
But you have all the politics of that, and then
you're like, wait, why did why did Rickochet lose so bad?
When it plays into all it undercuts the Jenga stack
of what was people taking Ricochet seriously? And then you
compound that with a just off casino goutlet execution farcically executed,

(52:03):
and then a finish where the guy win who wins
has already just days earlier been to find down to
where he was in WWE, and you make him the
first national champion, and it feels like it's done because
it's the only way to get past the politics in
the leverage that lash Ley and Shelton apparently are wielding
behind the scenes, or that Tony Kahn is enabling. The
whole thing is a mess and one of the real
down one of the real bummers of the show.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yeah, and then you add that, you know, insult to injury.
Ricochet goes on social media and gets into an argument
with Jim Cornette of all people, about injuries and because well,
Osprey had suggested, you know, I'll have ricohego all over
the place and do his thing was champion, and Cornette mentioned,

(52:50):
you know a number of injuries that Osprey's recovering from
one of them as we speak, and I want to
make sure I get the Ricochet is direct quote because
it was quite the thing, especially when you consider who
he was talking to at the time, because first Jim

(53:11):
Cornette is, you know, a bit of a firebrand, and
he sets things up, especially on Twitter, to kind of
just it's never going to be a peaceful discussion. It's
never going to be let's agree to disagree, so he said,
quote tweeted Will Osprey. He says from his hospital bed
after major surgery kids keep trying this at home. Then,

(53:34):
Ricochet writes, didn't a bunch of the old school guys
have kneeback, hip, neck and all types of surgery injuries.
Weren't they working smart? You sound fn dumb as s?
And Jim responded, Man, he did. Simpleton came from taking
bumps his pros and getting paid for them, not getting
flung off roots into parking lots for free. His children

(53:55):
like you and your trampoline friends who claim to be
pros but are stealing money from a rich kid to
put on your own jackass shows.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Jim neither either represented themselves. Well there, I will say.

Speaker 3 (54:05):
No, this is one of those things where it's like
when you get in the mud, or you know, don't
argue with a fool because people from the far can't
tell who's who, like you've gone too far, here's where
like and that's how my brain works. Ricochet is listening

(54:26):
to the messenger and not the message, because as a
fan of wrestling, as a historian of wrestling, you would
know Jim messed himself up pretty bad getting thrown off
a scaffold with those smart workers, and he never took
time off because back then you couldn't afford to take
time off. And that's where Ricochet doesn't see it. Yes,

(54:48):
if you do get hurt, if you do wrestle, this
stole well. Osprey doesn't see that Tony is gonna pay back.
In the day, they had to keep working, and if
you didn't keep working, you didn't eat, and you didn't
have your lights on. And so you wrestled smart because
you're trying to wrestle and maintain injuries that otherwise you couldn't.

(55:10):
And if anyone gets a chance, I have the book
here when Pride's theorem still mattered, and it talks about
vincevia Lombardi and how Vince Lombardi. Again, I know for
the folks who aren't wrestling fans, this is good because
it ties into wrestling. Vince Lombardi's one of the greatest
football coaches in the history of the sport. One of
the reasons I find it to be that reason now

(55:32):
because of the championships, but at the time when there
wasn't integration in the NFL, he was pushing for it
because he felt everyone deserved a chance to play, and
he was so obsessed with winning that that was an
avenue by which he felt he was losing because he
didn't have access to players he thought he could use.
He also, much like a wrestling promoter, would go up
to players and say, hey, I know you broke your leg,

(55:53):
I know you broke your arm, I know your ankles
kind of funny, but can you play because we need
a running back next week week? And those guys would play,
And so many times you hear from the NFL the
old timers, it's the opposite of the pro wrestling. Old
timers not only could you not wrestle and not get paid,
but they were just gonna grab another person off the

(56:13):
street to play this position. And so when you see
wrestlers actually no, I stand correct that I actually got
to transpose. It's very similar right now to the NFL
situation because these wrestlers work fewer dates and have more
opportunities for their injuries to be covered in ways that
those old timers didn't. So there is a little bit
of resentment, and I think there needs to be understanding

(56:35):
behind that resentment. Down in Jim's case, he puts a
flamethroat to a lot of stuff and ricochet. After having
the week he did, he should be happy. Doesn't need
to wrestle on his lowell, so to speak. But not
everything needs to be responded to.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
And sometimes you can make a point without saying you
sound dumbest shit. I mean like just like make your point,
and I mean, I guess that's some people are like,
well that's no fun. I'm like, well, you just have
some like dignity to an argument that you might have
a chance to win. And I'm not even agreeing with
Ricochet's point. I think there's just great differences.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
There's.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
First of all, it's big difference between kne injury and eckagery.
There's a big difference between a back pain and concussions.
And there's also the idea that injuries that are suffered
through accumulation of wrestling moment, Yes, a harder schedule, wrestling

(57:29):
a necessary but prudent style in order to get through
and earn your living is different than being a high
spot merchant who who's overdoing it with moves, where there's
much less dangerous. Equal substitutes when it comes to fan
enjoyment and when it's done for the sake of the

(57:52):
the the the pride of being the person who's willing
to sacrifice for the cause as opposed to do what
will draw money, and what draws money as you being
healthy and having good matches that engages the crowd. What
doesn't draw is you not being healthy. And if you
can draw equally but have not end up in a

(58:14):
wheelchair with regrets or not end up under a knife,
and you can get an equal reaction by doing safer
moves that don't have that false whatever pride that comes
from taking real chances and real bobs the old it's
twenty years later, twenty five years later, the stiff chair
shots of the head like this, I'm gonna earn it.

(58:34):
I'm going to earn my respect by taking blows for
the team and sacrifice. I mean that, that's but Cornet's
the wrong messenger for that. You know he's the wrong
messenger for that, for that. Otherwise, I think very sound
and well backed argument that should take into account everything
you said rich about the nuances of the differences in generations.
But I'll underline there's a kny in a back injury
and a neck and a brain injury. And I'll take

(58:56):
a bum knee and a sore back over concussions and
neck problems any day, at any anytime, every time, if
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(59:16):
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Speaker 3 (59:37):
Yeah, and I'll point out like in the case of
Will Osprey, I love watching him when I got to
see him wrestle and I want to say it was
twenty fifteen or twenty sixteen in Texas that WrestleMania weekend.
He had already had So that's where we're talking ten
years ago. He had already had a severe neck injury. Yeah,
and so he was wrestling through that and had survived

(01:00:00):
the broken neck and the broad verte brain. But you're
already at that young age working around a severe neck
injury and making it work. I would say, I get
what he's saying, like I wouldn't change any I would, yeah,
because at some point, you know, I was just talking
about that with a coworker about the idea of like

(01:00:23):
when I coach, especially with head injuries, Like you know,
Trey had a he had a showcase this weekend and
one of the kids was another Yeah, my son, Trey.
He was in a hockey game and one of his
teammates got hit by a much bigger kid. And then
they can check in everything at this age group, and
so the kid got knocked out. And one of the

(01:00:45):
big things was as the kid was coming to and
they were checking on him, making sure he got off
the ice and wasn't going to go back out and play.
And I applauded his coach because the coach did that
and kept the kid out instead of playing dumb is
like he just had his bell rung. Because that's something
you heard for I'm sure when you were young. It's
just like I was. That was something that people would

(01:01:06):
say to excuse what is a concussion and bricochet? I
would hope twenty years from now, the next ricochet, he
would be giving advice, Hey, don't do some of these
things I did, because they've now resulted in me having
the deal with X, Y and Z. But if not,

(01:01:29):
and he's gonna go the Osprey route of it was
all worth it. I you know, mcfoley just had his
hip completely replaced and the Doctor Totemo was the worst
tip he ever saw, and he explained how he got it.
And so when I talk about Mark Briscoe being the
Mickfoley of this promotion, he does the Cactus Jack spot,
which I hate that that fall off the apron to

(01:01:52):
the floor where he just got a flat or side
bump it. And then he's also the guy that takes
all the crazy finish and he's like, I'm doing it
because I I you know, I love the game.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
And I think mcfoley would be somebody if I were
Tony Khan and or if I were in Tony Khann's position,
I would have mcfoley come in and talk to Locker
mm hmm. You know, if if we make goes Willing,
I mean, and then others like that, and and I
know I know somebody like it won't go there's gonna
be stubborn people. They're gonna resist. It's a generational thing
or a generation and I'd still do it because it

(01:02:29):
would take it off. It would take There's things a
promoter can do to like lay the law down and go, hey,
here's some things. We're gonna have physical therapists and and
doctors and experts and human physiology, and we're gonna like
tell you what we think does more damage than other things,
so we're not gonna stop you from getting over. What

(01:02:49):
we're gonna say is if there's if there's three key
spots in a match, and you've got eight moves that
are options and they're all dangerous, We're gonna tell you
which five of those eight were willing to let you
do another dangerous because the other three are too dangerous.
This isn't an either or on off switch. We want
you to dazzle the crowd and be a generationally dynamic

(01:03:10):
wrestler who gets over because of the earth of your athleticism.
But we're going to use our resources and we want
you to trust in us, even if deep down your
skeptical or you know, rolling your eyes at it. We
are I want to bring in experts, and we're going
to talk about what is the what is indisputably, in
the eyes of experts, more dangerous and too much more

(01:03:32):
dangerous than these other options that will accomplish the same
thing when it comes to what our ultimate goal is,
which is engaged the fans in a story of competition
in the ring and drawing money and keeping you healthy,
and and that's not being done and having some wrestlers
come in and talk about it all of their old
school blah blah blah. Well, you know what, I think

(01:03:52):
you can find someone who's persuasive enough to get through
that wall, that barricade that some young wrestler's put up, going, oh,
my general, she doesn't care about that, because there is
a youthful ah, let's say ignorance, but a denial. There's
a there's a denial of that comes in youth that
that I think repeated speeches from wrestlers who relate to

(01:04:13):
them in some way and then warn them could cause
some tempering of the needlessly excessively dangerous spots. Either if
something goes wrong it's catastrophic, or if you do this
a lot, it will catch up to you quickly. And
those are the two categories that take me out of
a match. A move that I know you're gonna survive,
but we are selfishly as fans watching a geek show.

(01:04:36):
Somebody sacrificed their well being for me and I don't
care because I found it exhilarating to watch. And the
second one is, oh my god, if something went wrong,
I would never forget the visual of the paralysis or
the maiming, and accidents will happen. The whole point is
take away the ones that have a high double digit
percentage chance of happening if they're repeated, and and stick

(01:04:58):
with the things that are unavoil, but make them as
infrequent as possible. I just don't think that's crazy talk.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
Rich No, And and they've had Chris Newinski there as
an example of what you say, and they still have headshots. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
But that's where the promoter goes. You will not get
paid and you'll get fired if you do this or that.
Keep I'll keep you under contract. You're gonna let the
locker room down and the fans down, but I'm gonna
not push you, and we're gonna make your matches shorter
and you will be fined. I mean, whatever, whatever, tools
have they're disposed to put it in the contracts when
people sign. If you do this, you will lose your pay.
I mean there are there are tools rich that you

(01:05:35):
can use when you are an employer paying someone who
you are choosing to hire. You set the ground rules,
very true.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
But you also have to be willing to set the
ground rules, just like with their wellness policy yep. And
the way at times Randy Orton, would you know, could
be walking past the tester smoking a bong and still
be on his final warning yep. And so that's where
I say with this. Tony's mentioned several times the years,
when you get to the arena, I trust for you

(01:06:05):
to be an adult and do what you need to
do as a professional. And that covered some of the
wellness stuff like when Moxley went to rehab, then when
it came to the injuries in the spots, he trusts
that they'll do the smart thing. But he's now even
in his the last meeting, last promo, I'm sorry, last
pre match interview he does he mentioned I'm going to

(01:06:29):
you know, I police some of that, but I trust
that they're going to get the matches done. That to me,
says it's not a priority. It's not an issue for.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Agreed. All right, let's move on to I'm looking at
the kind of lay of the land here, some dowb topics,
and let's uh, well, let's start with something just you know,
just kind of fun, which is brock Lesner. It didn't
get hurt. I don't. Maybe it hurt the next morning
and he's getting up there in age. Sometimes things sakes

(01:07:05):
longer to heal, and it things hurt a little bit
more than they did back in the day. But yeah,
he did his kind of entrance, you know video game
signature routine where kicks his leg in the air and
throws his arms out, and he slipped and fell because
he's kind of on the edge of where the flat
part of the stage turned into a slope, and he
just kind of rolled backwards and popped up, and you know,
sheepishly smiled, gave his hat to break her and and

(01:07:28):
went about his merry way. Paul Hayman acted like nothing happened,
which was perfect, although I'm sure his heart skipped a beat.
And yeah, so we kind of have now the Brockmaster
to go with the shock Master. It rich your thoughts
on what happened there. I mean, it's obviously a pretty
frivolous story, but it's still fun to talk about a
little bit, just given Brock being the badass that he is.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
I mean, the fact that he he rolled through and
then kept it moving and was just again you forget
at times, in addition to all the well one, the
heinous stuff in the lawsuit about his idea of negotiating
a contract, and just his general brockness. He is a

(01:08:08):
He's an absurd athlete. Most people would have thrown their
backs out rolling through, let alone the fall, him playing
it off the way he did. And when you think
about folks in the past, you know, you think about
Titus O'Neal, you think about Goldberg, you think about anyone
else that's slipped. See him punk celebrate and jumping into
the crowd in the title and then breaking it. Yep,

(01:08:32):
he is He's built different and and so him not
only turning that into a cool moment, but then popping
the hat onto braun Breaker was just I mean, the
level of uh, if that wasn't a not the fall, obviously,
but if the hat part wasn't pre planned, the level
of arrogance to trust that that Dude's not gonna move
or take the hat off and understand I'm you know, I'm, I'm,

(01:08:56):
I'm a big brother in him right now and he's
just gonna have to take it. That was amazing. And
then to go out there and the next step after
that brock Master moment is the w the tar out
of the baby Faces in the ring. That was fun.
That was really fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
So let's let's talk about Survivor series, what's coming up
on Saturday. What We'll start with the men's match because
we're talking about Brock here. Cody wrote jus So Jimmy
us So, Roman Reigns, see them Punk all against the
Vision bron Breaker, Brons and Reed Logan Paul along with
the affiliate Brock Lesner and the perhaps temporary alliance with

(01:09:36):
Drew McIntyre. What have you thought of the build, especially
last night's Raw and what do you expect to see
Saturday as some of the key stories in the match
and coming out of the match.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
I like in the build that the baby Faces are
honest about their feelings, particularly Roman, Cody, and Punk because
there's a triangle there between Punk still trying to be
the wise uncle to Cody and Cody kind of bristling
because he's now his own man. Roman and Cody's forever

(01:10:08):
respects less hatred and Roman and Punk's hatred of each other.
And I like the fact that they agreed. We might
not like each other, we might even hate each other,
but we hate Paul Hayman more, and so that's keeping
us together. So they're few by the ussos are the
ponds in this. As Roman mentioned, he likes to take
care of his family and his Punk pushback. He'd never

(01:10:29):
be mean to a family member. Punk's always so good
at just finding that thing to needle someone with. And
to answer the question from your Raw review, it is
a great day to be alive in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, or
is it?

Speaker 7 (01:10:49):
Or what?

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:50):
Yeah? Or yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Or what great to be alive in Tulsa or what yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
And so it was like, oh or what And that's
where you know his wife will come out and say,
there people hope that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
I just think when he turns heel, he's gonna be
like it's always been or what.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
I like? I like that, and then the heels logan.
Paul has been the straw that stirs the drink. In
terms of his arrogance and just absolutely pushing everyone's buttons.
He's the petulant kids letting to you know, like the
uncles let into the room to watch a movie that
he's probably too young for, and now he's like trying

(01:11:27):
to grab a cigar. He is perpetually crossing the line
to the point where I was gonna I forgot to
send this to you, but I will. On social media,
he quote tweeted an announcement by WWE that The Undertaker's
making his own YouTube show, and he quote tweeted it
with I can't believe these outsiders trying to make their

(01:11:49):
way in this business. And I laughed out loud. I
don't like admitting Logan Paul made me laugh out loud,
but the fact that he was able to twist their
trope on its ear, and he's the one that's the
YouTuber complaining that they're getting into this world.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
He's ye, he's a smart guy, say, but you will otherwise?

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Yeah. Uh So that's there, Drew uh. Drew McIntyre is
also now ignominious with the fact that last night on
Netflix or or Monday on Netflix, Drew was caught as
he's celebrating with a fan in the stands that said,
thanks to t k O, this is my last w

(01:12:31):
W show. I can afford. That's man, that's but he's
kind of just there he and and I get that's
the spot he is in, but he's always so entertaining.
The other guys are overshadowing him in a way I
didn't I don't like. And Brock, of course, is just

(01:12:52):
this entity under himself. I I don't know if there
are words to describe brocks entire career. Honestly, when you
look at his like what he was when he first
got the w W versus what he is now, it's
it's it's more so many times, and yet it hasn't.

(01:13:12):
It's it's it's very interesting. But the fact that we've
seen in a Fortnite, we're gonna see four war games
matches because yeah, okay, blood God, it's war games. Come on,
we all know it's war games. And then I think
four and a half. If someone watched the War Chamber
on MLW, I did not, but I heard it was there.

(01:13:33):
It existed.

Speaker 7 (01:13:34):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
I think this is a Jimmy or j match in
terms of one of them being the baby face in peril.
That leads to the loss, and that leads to a
little bit of confusion betwixt the rest of the Faces,
especially as Romans started to uh start, you know, make
the the idea that he is after a title and

(01:13:56):
would let them argue over which one they thought he
was after. It's the undisputed. He would never go after
a title, that guy. Let's just put that out there.
But yeah, I think there's gonna be a really good match.
This will be a great showcase. Paul's done well in
the elimination chambers, so I think in a war Games match,
he's gonna find a spot that works for him with

(01:14:18):
the Heels having in the advantage after the match, which
makes total sense. And again similar to what we were
talking about the Continental Classics, sometimes chalk is good specifically
for wargames, the baby Faces at a disadvantage makes the
most sense. And Bronson Reid has maintained. You know, sometimes
I complain in AW guys have been elevated and they

(01:14:40):
kind of like stop. Or in the past in w
w E, there's certain wrestlers where I just felt like
there was a ceiling they were never gonna breakthrough. Bronson
Reid has broken through what would have been the mid
card role. They may have a portion for him, and
he's moved into something else entirely, and he's maintained it
with Hayman and with Braun Brick.

Speaker 5 (01:15:05):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p w T Talks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests, live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good,
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube
or stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Does it matter who wins and why?

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
If so, Oh god, I don't think it matters, I
honestly either way.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
It struck me last night when I was dow the argicule.
I'm like, I don't really know what's at stake here,
like concretely other than I want I want the guys
I like to beat the guys who I don't like
like in that and that should be enough. But like,
there's nothing really else here. A lot of it is
about the interpersonal dynamic within the teams rather than this
united cause to stop or forward something from happening.

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
Yeah, currently it's the vision Brock listener that that triumph
for it has Paul Hayman's fingerprints on them. Drew McIntyre
and Logan Paul are kind of the hired guns, with
Paul potentially being a late ad to the squad. Should
that continue.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Paul Paul Hayman, Logan Paul. I'm sorry, Oh yeah, then
I tell her say Logan because we have there's so
many Paul's in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
Oh oh, I said, last name? Got it? Got it?
Got Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
I mean it's just like in wrestling, especially because there's so
many fing ames, just go with the name that everyone's
gonna know what you're talking about. Like, don't say Page
or don't say Cage because is it Brian Cage, Christian?
Just say Christian or Brian Cage. That's my that's my
parenthetical off to the side. It's not important, but it's okay.
Folks are getting a live wage.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
Killers at it, Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, And it's not
a mark for edit.

Speaker 8 (01:16:54):
It is.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
Actually I am beat it. But I look at Logan
Paul as the super free agent that they could sign,
or he's a mercenary that's playing with him for one game.
It could be anything between and Drew's just his own man.
Whereas on the other side, I think if the Heels win,
Brock and or any member of the Vision and or

(01:17:16):
any member of this squad could collect claim to a
title match against the two singles champions. But if the
Faces win Roman's favor, maybe I want a title match
against one of you or both of you, because Jimmy
and Jay they seem to be kind of isolated. And

(01:17:37):
the one thing I would again I say this and
then watch Saturday night. I'm on the round table and
we're complaining that wwe also did the swear for Swarve's sake.
The dumbest swear for Swarf's sake would be both Usso's
worn and Paul Hayman to prove that they were ignored
by everybody and Paul gave them attention or something silly

(01:17:58):
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:01):
Yeah, So along those lines, like what are among let's
just break it down with the Men's the Men's heal
team first, what twist twist isn't even right? Well, what
developments could happen in terms of the interpersonal dynamic that
should be at the top of the list, Like, is
there a chance that Brock and Logan don't get along,
and that turns into a story that's randomly yeah, like
or Drew McIntyre feels like he's being asked to do

(01:18:25):
things that are sacrificing for the team, but bron Breaker
wasn't asked you whatever. I'm like literally making stuff up.
What comes to mind that you think has a chance
to be a talking point Going into ron Smack on
the following week with.

Speaker 3 (01:18:37):
The five heels the possibility that one of them abandoned
ship and that could be Paul, Logan Paul or Drew
macint very good yes, uh and and Logan Paul maybe
because him and Bronx just don't get along and Brock
eats him out of the cage. M h. In the
case of Drew McIntyre, we've seen it before. If he doesn't,

(01:18:57):
if he feels like someone's trying to use him as
a pawn, he's taking himself off the board. And that's
where I would see him say, Okay, screw this, I'm out.
Mm hm. You guys are on your own. Yeah, braun
Breaker Bronson reed, no, I don't see that happening, and
Brock Lesner most assuredly not.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
On the babyface side. Do you think that Punk, Cody
and Rains are represented themselves well Monday night in terms
of they all made their case. They didn't do so
in a way that was off putting, but they just
kind of held to who they are without being unnecessarily Yes,

(01:19:36):
it naughty about it because I thought they pulled it
off like bickering babyfaces. I think is just as a
rule of bad idea, especially if they're going to be
wrestling each other, because they ultimately fans have to choose.
But in this case, they were just each asserting their
alpha credentials and they're going to battle together. That doesn't
mean they'll get along, there won't be a misunderstanding. But
I thought they got away with the bickering baby faces

(01:19:57):
on Monday in part because there was at a little humor.
I don't know if Cody did, but Punk did a
couple of times, and Roman did was sort of like, ah,
that's for you guys to decide, like a little little
wink in a nod, a twinkle in the eye, Punk
and reins even as they're trying to short their alpha
their alpha creds. Yeah, it's it seemed to work for me,

(01:20:19):
so I don't know what to expect going in in
terms of if that means they'll be bickering or this
is more just yeah, we want to make you think
there will be but they'll get along.

Speaker 3 (01:20:28):
Well. We talked about a few weeks ago on everything,
the idea of when Cody is being positive as a babyface,
not the top babyface, it takes a little bit away
from his mystique. This was an example of him taking
himself a little more serious than the other two are

(01:20:50):
taking themselves, because Roman did do the thing of you know,
watch the title and asking which one are you talking about?
Don't worry about it. Punk very quickly is that he's
talking to you. Yeah, and that's again very much. I'm
I'm I'm very comfortable in my skin. I can play
around with this stuff. Whereas Cody is like, I'm the quarterback.

(01:21:13):
You guys got to listen to me. So when Pump
pushes back, he's like, sure, thirst of thursty is I'm
sorry so used to on Friday. Yeah, you're the you're
the quarterback, but here I'm the champ. And that's Cody
trying to push and say I get it, and he's
just trying to re establish I'm the guy here, but
it's when you have multiple world championships, there are several

(01:21:36):
guys and you gotta be okay with that, especially when
your title is the one that is the I hate
saying the real title, but it's the primary title, and
so be okay with that and be confident and keep
it moving.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Let's shift to the women's Were Games match. They big
focus last night also, and I mean I've given it.
I want equal time because I don't know either way,
but it feels like reasonably equal stature in the build,
and they have star power in this one. Riea Ripley
top star in the division. Osca and Kyrie have been

(01:22:13):
big parts of the storylines on TV. Alexa Bliss is
really over in the storyline of Charlotte has been significant.
Alexa is a long term star who has a connection
with the fans. Charlotte obviously pushed as a generationally top
top act. You have the returning nostalgia of aj Lee,
you have another generationally top top act in Becky Lee,
and you have vo Sky, who's the class of the

(01:22:34):
innering division. This is a I mean, yes, Tiffany's not there,
Jade's not there, Bianca's not there. I don't know who
I'm missing, but like you know, in terms off you're
making a top ten list, not everybody's in it, but
it's a really Obviously Ni Jack's didn't mention her, but
she's been in the mix. Is a top top act
and then lash Legend totally fits, you know, and it

(01:22:56):
gives her a chance to benefit from the rub of
being in this. Hopefully they don't just make her the
designated jobber. But I like the mix of talent. I
think there's some good dynamic. There's the dynamic interplay of
the different eagles and personalities is substantial, just as it
is with the men, and the star power within the

(01:23:18):
women's division is as strong as the men are within
the men's division. You know, women aren't quite as deep
roster wise, or in terms of the legacy of say
A brock Lessner, Drew McIntyre and their accomplishments, but it's
still I think, a really, if you're gonna have if
we stipulate there's gonna be two War Games matches for
each gender, then I think they've done a good job
filling it up, especially the addition of aj Lee. I'm

(01:23:40):
matting to it. So, yeah, what are your kind of
top thoughts going into this.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
Yeah, And I would say one thing, and it's a
very interesting kind of thread to pull on when you
mentioned say it drew in a brock and their historical
relevance throughout the history of their gender's division. The closest
we would have is actually the woman and the title
match in terms of Nikki Bell, because when you go
back to Dru's beginning when he was the chosen one

(01:24:04):
under Vince McMahon, I don't believe there's an active women's
wrestler other than the Talia and she has only just
now gotten her flowers, so to speak, commensurate to the
amount of time she's been on the roster. That's basically
been a gold wattch situation than them observing like, hey,
she's been top of the card for X, Y and Z.

(01:24:26):
So this is like Becky and the horse women generation
are gonna be probably in the next five years that
group for the women's division, and some of the women
you mentioned a few moments ago are gonna be the
people that are gonna be carrying it as the middle
of the car to upper mid card to main event
as the younger women take over as well. I look

(01:24:47):
at Alexa Bliss and you mentioned her connection to the crowd,
whether baby face or heel, especially once she joined the
Wyatt family and became the female manifestation of the Fiend
and all the Annabelle adjacent trappings with the Doll and

(01:25:07):
the you talked about aj Lee and her skipping. She'd
had a very infantilized entrance with the Doll once you
became the female Fiend. But she used her positive connection
to the audience to backdoor relationship with Charlotte Flair and
the audience, and that to me is a strong sign
that she's she got it, and she gets it in

(01:25:30):
a way that I didn't. I'm very, very very impressed by.
And Charlotte's leaned into it as she's shown humility, as
she's they've done this relationship and the faces in this
case for the women, the beef for the most part's
been squashed. You don't have the level of Roman Punk

(01:25:51):
and Cody, Rio and Rio, not the combination of Ria
and Leo, Rhea and Charlott that have kind of men defenses.
They showed that on SmackDown. EO's fine with everyone. Aj
Lee's the resident legend. That's kind of just here for
a good time, guys and therapy and let's be good,

(01:26:14):
so I don't have that question of who's going to
turn on whom. In the case of the Heels, Jackson
Legend are a really good power team, and I know
they don't do a lot with the women's tag team titles,
but last Legend's done really well in tag teams the
last few years. And I know her partner got fired
and she since reserviced in TNA. She's done. I mean,

(01:26:37):
she's former WNBA super athlete. Jacks is a great example
to what to and not to do as a power
women's wrestler the Kabuki Warriors or some of the standards
and like wrestling around the world, let alone in ww
and Becky has settled into the very cheeky Heel that

(01:26:58):
if anything, this is one where I feel like they're
could be a situation laid on that all of the
Heels abandoned Becky and leave her to the baby Faces,
because there is it is kind of a honor amongst thieves,
but there isn't necessarily respect amongst them because Becky's posited
herself as superior to everyone else on her team. You

(01:27:20):
didn't get that too much, other than logan Paul being
an irritant by saying it in Brocklesn's name multiple times
when Paul said, keeped his name out of your mouth.

Speaker 1 (01:27:31):
We are running our second VIP sale of the year.
You want to take advantage of this. If you've thought
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(01:27:53):
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(01:29:01):
match do you think we'll look back on as being
more important to what came afterwards in terms of all
the interpersonal dynamics and the things that they're teasing. Look,
you know, when you look at the lineup, I don't
think like Charlotte's gonna turn on Bliss, But I also

(01:29:22):
don't think Drew's gonna turn on the Vision. I think
Oscar and Kyro are gonna stay together and EO's not
gonna like, they're not gonna mess with that. So to me,
like what we're looking at for like almost for sure
coming out of this War Games match for the women
is aj Lean Becky in a singles match. But I
don't know if a ton else get a ton else
seems on the table in terms of major things. I

(01:29:43):
mean something with Nya might get intensified, but I'm not
sure we're gonna see like some major turn where Cody
goes screw you see I'm punk or anything like that. Yeah.
So I mean I'm in all the things that we've
talked about in the last several minutes. I mean it's
gonna be It's not violence for the sake of violence.
There's some intrigue, but I don't know that they're gonna

(01:30:06):
be super consequential beyond one or two key storylines coming
out of them in total.

Speaker 3 (01:30:14):
Yeah, I would say the men's match, and I'm looking
at Bron breaker and brock Lessner.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
Oh there you go. Yeah, a tease, A tease, not
a full breaker, think.

Speaker 3 (01:30:24):
No, I tease just like with the hat. I think
Bron's gonna do something to Brock to annoy and undermine him. Yeah,
and we'll see where that goes from there, because that
is any If Brock plays it off cool and then
he explodes later, that makes more sense than him just

(01:30:45):
losing his mind, because Brock's never done that. If anything,
Bronc will los his mind and like you saw when
he slips, he falls, rolls through and then calmly destroyed.
That's the thing about Brock. As he's evolved as a wrestler,
the older he's gotten, he's become more of that four
some nature where he just doesn't have any He has
no buttons you can push other than his diverticulitis in

(01:31:06):
a match.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
All right, we have more on this show. So John
Cena Dominic for the Icy Title. Let's uh, let's give
some attention to the end of John Cena's in ring career.
We are approaching that date and the Dominic side side
fe'd separate from the tournament to determine whose last opponent

(01:31:34):
will be. Has been fun, but we did have the
little person attempt at comedy or whatever they're going for.
Maybe start with that and uh, and then give your
thoughts on the actual match, and do you expect Seena
to get the Icy title back and retire as a
last real icy champion or does Dom beat him? And
if so, ha, what what are the options here?

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
I think, well, what did they call it? Uh? John
Manny John Mina? They had the little stew that broke
me more like the usage of little people to me.
You know, my mom has been this is really domb.
My mom has been adamant since the days of me
watching the Attitude era where they would use little folks.

(01:32:18):
Vince McMahon would have loved to bring her in as
a character witness. She saw this job creation because so
often outside of holidays, a lot of little folks wouldn't
get a lot of rules, and so those things were
very like, oh wow, yeah, glad that that guy got work.
In this case, a lot of the jokes didn't land
for me because they were just kind of heavy handed.
But the many Stu got me. The fact that John

(01:32:42):
Cena's relationship with Stu and the fact that my son
God Bless him, was like, Oh, man, that means John
Cena's really going to show up. I was like, but
he said last week was the final raw. I don't
think he's going to go back on that. He's like, no,
he can't let this little guy be in trouble and
not save him. I was like, you don't know the
power of John Cena. Yeah, yeah, And that that also
made me think you made a very bad for kids

(01:33:06):
catch twenty two because if John Cena is this hero,
his promise to never show up on raw shouldn't supersede
coming to the aid of a person who's getting beat up.

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
But why would he be there in the first place.
That's the thing, right, there's no presupposition for see stage well, right,
But no one should resent Scena for not being at
a show that he promised he would not be at
to offset something unpredictable that Dom did that wasn't.

Speaker 3 (01:33:30):
Bad taste, right, And the thing that catches it and
saves it was Ray coming out to the rescue, And
I think that made it. Really It continued the story,
and it's going to make so much better when when
Dom finally goes face and has to like apologize to
his dad, hopefully around Father's Day. That'd be perfect. But yeah,

(01:33:56):
I thought Dom was great. This was, as I said
said a second ago, this was a promo and a
skit taken out of something like fifteen twenty years ago,
as opposed to actually let me just take a step back.
This is totally in Polovk's idea of Wiehouse of Comedy

(01:34:16):
because him and Bensericman shared a sense of humor with
things like this. If you looked at any of the
DX promos or any of the things he did at any
point in his life, this yeah, this fit. This fit
him like a glove. Going to the match itself, Sena
and Mysterious is probably going to be my favorite match
on the card for Survivor series on Saturday. Dom has

(01:34:39):
become known as the wrestler when you're coming back or
when they need a good match, whether it was in
front of the Netflix executives, well when guys like Punk
were coming back, Sena coming back. He is a trusted
hand to them, and so seeing Sena in one of
his final pay per view matches against Dominic Mysterio is
as much an at a boy and a tap on
the back for a dom as anyone could get. I'm

(01:35:03):
of the mindset that the last time is now, tournament.
If you want to get I don't think Gunther, because
I feel like Gunther is gonna be again, just like
we talked about the Continental Classic. Chock says Gunther's gonna win.
I don't think he needs the Intercontinental title gain. If anything,
I would like to see by Chicane Rey Dominic retain,

(01:35:25):
regain the title and then let Sina beat the winner
of the Last Time Is Now tournament. Yep, go out,
shake hands, kiss babies, do his thing, celebrate with the
three fingers in the room, like, that's the thing for me.
If you're gonna have on Sunday Night main event the
last John Seena match, he needs to win it because

(01:35:46):
you do not want to end it with a highlight
package of his career and then you end it with
him in the ring broken right. If Gunther takes him
to his limit and he endorses him after, that's fine.
I would have preferred if they grabbed a young person
to give them the once in a lifetime shot. And

(01:36:06):
as I was corrected, by being in the tournament, you
would have won two or three matches, so you could
have had an Ethan Page in there. He would have
had several wins before he got to that point. Though,
I am looking forward to seeing who he names for
the pay per view. In terms of the NXT wrestlers
he'd like to see wrestle on the show because that

(01:36:26):
to me is going to stand out in terms of
who he's paid attention to. Javon Evans already know is
one person he's mentioned is an outstanding wrestler. Yeah, I
think Dom's I think Dom's gonna get it back.

Speaker 1 (01:36:40):
Yeah, I'm I don't don't think we can assess quite yet,
but I want to. I want to get a vibe
for what Dom does next, and how different feuding with
John Cena has, what difference it's made to the perception
of him, both as a performer and sort of a
evaluating it as a business sense, and then also in

(01:37:00):
the meta verse of what does he get to brag
about or tout that he did by feuding with Sena
and does that elevate him in a way, Because sometimes
the push comes after the universal recognition that someone has
a push coming, and I think with Dom he's getting
a push, But there's been this recognition of, you know what,

(01:37:20):
he's stuck up on a lot of people. He's turned
out to be better than people largely expected in a
lot of categories. But we don't want to rush pushing
him because I could backfire. But you know it's coming.
They're going to give him opportunities to add to the
resume of being a guy moving up the card, and

(01:37:42):
so yeah, I'm curious what he does with the scene
of feud Harvard plays out I'm going forward, and how
it seems to affect the type of matches he's given,
the type of fuse he's given, how competitive he is,
and how he talks about how he talks about it.
And then ultimately other fans respond, this could be what
I was pushing for, which is scene he needs to

(01:38:03):
get back to somebody in their twenties. He can't just wrestle,
you know, self indulgent dream matches because it's more fun
and safe and conservative and nostalgic, you know, Seena giving back.
There weren't a lot of twenty somethings to get back to,
you know. I mean, that's that's unfortunate, stated Oobo's roster.
But Tom was an obvious one. So I hope something
good comes out of this.

Speaker 3 (01:38:23):
Yeah, and to your point about giving back, it's very
interesting and the last few weeks scene that's kind of
like popped up on NXT as kind of the dude
with the letterman jacket hanging out with the freshman after
he's graduated to kind of like give him a pep talk,
and he's announced he's doing things like announcing the Iron

(01:38:43):
Survivor Challenge for the women and talking about why he
likes each wrestler and what they bring to the table.
I needed more of that like two months ago.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Yeah, I want seene It to show up at NXT
and talk to a young upstart or go to Opa
Femi and go, oh, but you got a great few.
You can never be a real champion because I'm the
last real champion, but you have a chance to win
some inferior version of it, like anyway. No, No, that's good.
I mean that's goods good though that what you're saying.
It better late than ever.

Speaker 3 (01:39:12):
Yeah, And I want to be fair to him too
because one of the one of the things I remember
back when we did the East Coast cast, myself, A,
Tres Bryan, and Cam Hawkins, we always talked about and
and Sena even mentioned as well as Big Ee, the
fact that when Big Ee was just a developmental wrestler,
Sina made a point to have him on his h

(01:39:35):
when they did the You know, I think it was
the it was like one of his back in the
day when the DVDs were things they were selling, and
he had big Eie do his personal best in his
gym because he would let the wrestlers, the NXT or
FCW at the time, wrestlers train at his gym with him,
and he made sure that Biggie was on there because
he wasn't under he was on like a very very

(01:39:56):
low contract. And so that was one of the things
that helped get more eyes from the executive level on
Bickie because he knew events and companies seeing him set
that record would help him. And but I needed more
of that. I needed him. I know you joked about
the opa Femi. I needed him to let Trick Williams
run him down a little bit before he returned fire

(01:40:18):
or Ethan Page. I've been on the I love Ethan.
He is the perfect person to have been a foil
for John Cena in his final match. But that ship
sail and you know, it's not a mizz It's not.
As much as I like La Night, that's not the
right thing for him. If anything, that's a downgrade given
the role he's taken on in the last three months.

(01:40:41):
I just really thought that this was a better opportunity
for someone to you know he ruthless aggression and all
the stuff with the Undertaker and Kurt Angle given someone
else that opportunity, or you know my favorite match the
Jeff Hardy Undertaker ladder match where Jeff did all these
crazy things and the other Tiger just waited to give

(01:41:02):
him a last ride and then glimb the ladder and
then after he's like, I made a name for yourself, kid,
I was like, did he or did you just let
this dude bounce off you for like fifteen minutes. I
look at this pay per view and I look at
Survivor Series Sena, and mysterio isn't going to be that.
I think Sena is gonna give a lot to Dom.
Even if Dom doesn't win, I think he will. Dom's

(01:41:23):
gonna come out of this looking a lot better and
the public size then he might currently, even though he's
got a pretty big following as it is.

Speaker 1 (01:41:32):
Before we get to the John Cena retirement match, we
need to have a tournament winner. That tournament will not
include Penta. It will include an odd match that wasn't
on most people's sheet. Solo versus Gunther talk about the
pent injury and in kind of the follow out the
cascading effect of it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:48):
Yeah, the Penta injuries awkward because as I was talking
about Dom, one of the things I was looking forward
to was Dom and the Grande Americano against the Luca
brothers for the first time in Mexico under the WW umbrella.
It was gonna be coming up in a few weeks,
and I don't know if his shoulder pend to his

(01:42:11):
shoulder is gonna be up to it or if he's
not gonna need to take more time off. If he
needs to take time off, that sucks because again I
feel like this is another person they could outside of
merch money, they could have done so much more with
When I look at the next step and from what
I've been seeing, some of the reports were saying that

(01:42:31):
that was the prescribed winner even before the injury, which
double heel in the next round is kind of I
never liked those, especially if this is going to be
the time is not there if anything, have one young
upstart heel not just too mac Eel's nor disrespect. And
now I don't know what's gonna happen with with my

(01:42:52):
guy Panta. If it's a long recovery process. Hopefully they
have as I've said before Intercontinent title. Maybe flirting with
the main event every now and again plans form. If not,
you're just gonna throw him and raid back together and
loot your brother it up. He at least got some
great March money to go behind. Right regards to the tournament,

(01:43:15):
it seems like it's SCOO throughs to lose.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
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(01:44:02):
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Solo didn't look pleased with winning. Maybe the way he won, right, And.

Speaker 3 (01:44:20):
That's what I'm saying. If the reports of believes Solo
was supposed to be the winner, regardless, it was just
that it happened in four minutes instead of ten or
twelve minutes. Call it. I don't like this match. It
does not because they're wrestling the same or at least
they used to wrestle the same gimmick of this tough
guy no nonsense. Someone spike versus the show powerbomb versus

(01:44:45):
someone drops it's a little two on the nose. It's
almost gonna be like the hand up to the mirror gimmick.
I would have preferred. This is where and I know
it he's not. Gnther versus Dolf Ziggler would have been

(01:45:05):
everything I needed out of this side of the bracket, yep,
because Dolf would bump like a maniac for Gunther, come
back just a little bit, give you a little bit
of hope, and then goother could snatch it away. On
the other side, Jay Usso and russev Mystery Person versus

(01:45:30):
l A Knight. I've given up on them taking creativity
into this, and I'm just assuming they're gonna give us.
I don't even know I would. Do you have a
guess as to the mystery person way?

Speaker 1 (01:45:48):
No, No, I don't, because I I mean Ethan Page.
There's still hope.

Speaker 3 (01:45:53):
I've given up on that dream date. I don't want to.
I don't want to do it. If anything, it'll be
I want Ethan Page and they're gonna give me Joe
Hendry with no fanfare, thus undercutting the entire point of
having Joe Henry in a match like this or a
tournament like this. Yeah, Randy Orton, there we go. Insert

(01:46:17):
Randy Orton right there. Randy Orton in La Night already
have a storyline Bob's your uncle, and then you can
have a Randy versus russa Randy versus Usso that would
be quite fun. But I don't. I don't know. It
could be anybody, even John Cena. No, that again, that's

(01:46:39):
worth it for the sake I'm entering my own tournament.
I don't. Yeah, I don't see an upside to solo
versus Schoon th other than you're gonna get the most
hard hitting seven minutes one will see on a show,
and I can't see anyone on the other side other
than jay Uso because it seems like that would be

(01:47:01):
the wrestlemaning rematch for the finals of My time as
now tournament?

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
Is the solo Goonther match a chance for WWE to
especially if it's the intent to have this match to
ease people into seeing Goonther as a babyface coming out
of whatever they have planned for Goonthro. If he wins
a tournament and faces Sena at Saturday and it's been

(01:47:28):
event in a couple of weeks, a few weeks, is
is this opportunity because it's a weird heel heel matchup
style wise, it doesn't look on paper great. Do you
have some tonguins interfering and it puts Gunthro in sympathetic
light even if it's not an official turn. Is that
possibly the structural intent of the brackets? Again, if Solo

(01:47:51):
was the intended winner, even not was intended to win
due to default, but if he was going to advance anyway,
Pena didn't get hurt.

Speaker 3 (01:48:00):
Yeah, and that makes sense. I'd also see it is
if it's a postmatch the new bloodline doing something to
injure Guther going into the final, so you have a
little bit of symy sympathy for him and he can
start that gradual face turn, not with an act of
bravery outside of I'm gonna tough this match out, and

(01:48:21):
I think that would be enough for him. You don't
want Gunther to have that much of a personality change,
similar to the other baby faces we mentioned in the
Survivor series match I'm sorry, in to the war Games
matches themselves. I want Gunther to still be the guy
to politely, you know, undercut anything you've had as a
career and give you damn you with faint praise essentially
because I love that aspect of his character when he

(01:48:42):
does the oh yes, you have a great group of
friends behind you that always help you win. I wish
I needed as much help as you did. But alas
I am me so, I do not like those little
things where he is just the mother in law from hell.
That's always nothing's ever good or fallow in law for
al I guess in his kise, I love it, and

(01:49:05):
just keep it up, just do it as a babyface.
The fans will eat it up.

Speaker 1 (01:49:08):
And actually even more if you're trying to create an
excuse for Guntherro to lose to Sena. If you want
seen it, have a feel good match, but protect Gunther,
then you have Solo, Talla Tangaloa, you have them all
just gang up on Guther in some form or fashion.
After Gunther beats Solo, then there's a beat down, not

(01:49:30):
enough to turn gun through babyface, but enough to put
him in a position to plant the seed as a
guy who fights through injury in order to ultimately prevail
in the turn. And he's also in the final and
then goes against Sena injured. So there are some options
here where you go, Okay, I see why Solo Gunther
made sense, and now how they get out of the
Sena Guther conundrum of how do you protect Gunther when

(01:49:53):
Brock plowed through Sina so easily, especially if you're trying
to get to a Gunther lesser match at some point?

Speaker 3 (01:50:00):
Yeah, and I think that gives Goonther and out and
it also sets up whatever they would want to do
with Brock as not just the opportunity to wrote a
one off, but rather an entire feud, because I think
those two would have big business in terms of going
up against each other.

Speaker 1 (01:50:19):
I like the mystery opponents in the tournament. I know,
the the Shamous injuries.

Speaker 3 (01:50:25):
Legit right, Yeah, from what I understand, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
Yeah, I mean, you know, across your mind, maybe they
plan that so they could have another mister opponent, but
because yeah, Elle Knight against Shame is kind of weird match.
But either way, the mystery opponents are good because it
takes away some of the ability to predict what's going
to happen, because whoever that mister person is, if they
beat Knight and then they beat either Jay or brucev

(01:50:48):
suddenly it can completely change how you feel about how
this tournament ends up. If there's someone sneaks in at
the end, you know, in that way, So, I mean,
we know it's all I shouldn't say we A lot
of people know it's happen in terms of mister opponent,
but that can because it's spoilers tape less Friday. I'm
not getting into spoilers on the show because I don't
do that. But I think if you're looking at the

(01:51:08):
tournament and you're a fan and you don't have spoilers,
you're look and go now maybe I'm not so sure
because that could be that person, that person or that person.

Speaker 3 (01:51:16):
Yeah, and I try not too, especially with all the
other stuff going on between Survivor series and and I
don't I don't want especially doing the show. I don't
want to ever kind of faint. Oh what could be
this guy? And then oh, look I just read something
and gave you an answer like that. That's not that's

(01:51:39):
not hopeful. Speaking of reading something pented, they'd go on
social media and right one of the greatest. This dude
speaks as if he is a Mexican samurai, and I
sop it up. I am a Mexican warrior, forged in struggle, honor,
in heart, and though the fall was hard, I rose
with a fire, strong and another to my arrive my

(01:52:00):
deepest respect. Thank you for your professionalism and for a clean,
dignified battle. I recognize your dedication and honor. I hope
be back very soon, stronger, more prepared, and determined to
finish what I left bending. Thank you for standing with me, fans,
because this war still has chapters to be ridden. Mane

(01:52:22):
just let him say stuff like that. He doesn't even
have to dance.

Speaker 1 (01:52:28):
Rich anything else you want to bring up before he
signed off this week.

Speaker 3 (01:52:31):
Oh, before we sign off, I would say one thing,
and that would be in terms of looking at you know,
going into Thanksgiving and going into this time of year,
I am very thankful that I have the option to
watch what I want. And so I think for folks,
as you get into the end of the year, as
you start thinking the matches of the year, things like that,

(01:52:53):
ask someone you watch this stuff you don't watch, what
things they like and why. I think that opens up
the door to more interest in wrestling and less territorialism,
less going into the tribalism when you can kind of
find something that fits your fancy, so to speak. And
so if you could try that, that would be my

(01:53:13):
Thanksgiving challenge. Ask grandma when she's passing the yams what
her favorite matches and why and see what she says.
Right back everything with Richiegima dot com and we'll be
sure to talk about it at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:53:30):
Rich. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving, Hay Thanksgiving everybody out there.
Hope you enjoy. However you spend this holiday weekend with family, friends,
or in solitude, which don't feel bad if that's your
your your case, unless you're an extrovert who's miserable in solitude.
Solitude can be can be healing and recharging too. So

(01:53:53):
I know sometimes sometimes holidays are tough on people because
there's a certain you know, conscript I don't if that's
right word for it, but like a expectation, a structure
of what counts as spending it well, do your best
to spend it in a way that that is good
for you and provide some wellness and recharge. Sometimes I
can be family. Sometimes family is the opposite of it.

(01:54:14):
You need to find a recharge afterwards. But whatever it is,
and and you know, look for some good deals, not
not don't buy stuff you don't need, but it is
a good time. If there's something you've been putting off,
obviously this is the time to do it. There's my
thanksgiving me.

Speaker 3 (01:54:25):
Can invite, yeah, find that thing you don't want to
do and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
Thanks, all right, take care of everybody and we'll talk.

Speaker 7 (01:54:35):
To you.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
If you missed it earlier. Just a reminder, we're running
our second VP sale of the year. We don't do
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
limited to time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription,
a one month, three month or one year sub. It
brings the one month sub down to just three dollars
in ninety nine cents. The coupon code is n O
V twenty twenty five as in November Nov twenty twenty five,

(01:55:16):
and that takes nine dollars off. When you check out
on our signup form pw torch dot com slash go
vip give you full details on membership benefits and links
to our signup form. Invite you to email the show
with feedback or questions or comments. That email address is
Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at

(01:55:37):
pw torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter.
Even follow us on Twitter at pw torch and follow
me at the Wade Keller That's at PW Torch and
at the Wadekeller.

Speaker 6 (01:55:50):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week you'll hear the latest news and analysis for me,
my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along with other
pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast
features long form interviews with notable names in the pro
wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all your

(01:56:12):
favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW boom
dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:56:21):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pwtorch dot com Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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(01:56:45):
an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts, will
come join me Alan fourrel Over in the Progress Paradise
at pewtorch VIP as we mask on the bright side
of wrestling and focus on some of.

Speaker 9 (01:56:57):
The great matches and shows from around the world world
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we've done fun historical shows such as the We Love
Liger series celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter
and our eye was there when shows where our guests
will join me to talk about a classic bout that

(01:57:19):
they were in attendance for. We love variety and you
can expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed
pw tors VIP subscription information and a list of all
the VIP benefits is available at pww torch vipinfo dot com.
And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream

(01:57:42):
them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site.

Speaker 3 (01:57:46):
See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (01:57:48):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weightkeller Pressing podcast
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(01:58:10):
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Speaker 10 (01:58:25):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 8 (01:58:41):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (01:58:54):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you ad
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(01:59:17):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties and also our podcast
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There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
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(01:59:41):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
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