NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Fann discuss Foley breaking ties with WWE, Cena tapping and Levesque's response to fan reaction, Austin Theory reveal

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:37):
Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Ridget has been a busy weeks Frims. We last talked
with Saturday night's main event, John Cena's retirement, the crowd reaction,
Paula Back reacting to that reaction, Guthu's promo on Monday.
We'll get into that momentarily. Also, Austin Theerry revealed as
the mystery masked man with more questions and answers going
forward into the next several weeks, and we'll explore that.

(02:15):
We also have the Continental Classic ongoing, the Tokyo Dome
show coming up right around the corner. We're coming to
the end of the year and we've got a year
to reflect on, an year look forward to. Oh yeah,
World's end is coming up. Aw doesn't let us have
a full holiday break. I mean, they give us a
break from all the stress of family, but giving us
a five hour wrestling show full of great matches. But

(02:37):
let's start with just the most recent and I think
you know worthwhile topic to lead with. I'll just put
it that way, which is Mick Foley. I'm releasing a
statement on Facebook saying that he is no, well not,
he's disassociating from WWE as an ambassador. And I'll I'll
just I'll read this sament for people who didn't see it,
and it'll kind of fresh refresh everybody's mind for our

(02:58):
talking points here if you have read it. He said, Well,
I've been concerned about wbe's close relationship with Donald Trump
for several months, especially in light of his administrations ongoing
cruel and inhumane treatment of immigrants, parentheses and pretty much
anyone who looks like an immigrant, and Parentheses reading the
President's incredibly cruel comments in the wake of Rob Reiner's
death is the final straw for me. I no longer

(03:18):
wish to represent a company that coddles a man so
seemingly void of compassion as he marches our country toward autocracy.
Last night I informed to B Talent Relations that I
would not be making any appearances for the company as
long as this man remains in office. Additionally, I will
not be signing a new Legend deal when my current
one expires in June. I loved w B, will always
treasure my time with them, and I'm deeply appreciative for
all the opportunities they afforded me. But in the words

(03:40):
a pop by the Sailor so McK fully, I stands
all I can stands, and I can't stand no more.
And so you know, I mean, I'm not gonna recap
what President Trump said about Rob Reiner because it's so distasteful.
I want to just be able to go on with
the show and not take a break. And and but

(04:02):
I understand, you know, I mean, everybody has a line.
And it would have I mean, we started saying this
off air, Rich it would have been good for w W.
And I know they're closely tied to the Trump administration,
and they might think there's nothing wrong with what Trump said,
and it's I don't know where humanity is where that's
the stance people take out of loyalty to a political
party or tax tax rates or whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
In a good heal that in his head. I could
imagine Levek saying something like that.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
And and you know the windows he's given us into
this it. You know, I've I've i have given Paula
beck In this sort of a parenthetic parenthetical but I've
given him some grace in the sense that he's in
a tough spot. He's married to somebody whose mother is
in the administration of somebody who nobody imagined would be president,
you know, for good reasons fifteen years ago. And so

(04:54):
I'm like, well, you know, family obligations, you don't want to,
you know whatever. It's like this smallest liver of grace.
It's like he's not voluntarily going, let me go do
photo shoots. It's it's like a family event. He sort
of you hoped, you hoped he begrudgingly was participating in
to some degree, but that there's nothing he said that
indicates that it's begrudging, and that's the very disappointing part.

(05:17):
The more time goes on. But I said this off here,
I started say it off there, and I was like,
let's just hit record and do this. This was you know,
you even say, where's the line crossed? And there's ben
hundreds of blinds crossed going back to the first the
first term that I think would have been called for
for Deby to say something along the lines of we
we find it disheartening, disgusting, We're in dismay over this decision,

(05:40):
this statement, and we just want to shore our fans.
We're going to disassociate in any official way from this administration.
In the past, we've shown photographs of executives visiting our
parent company has invited him to the other you know,
UFC events. But we want to assure a dot of EV
viewers that there would be no when you watch our program,

(06:02):
there'll be no connection to the politics of this administration.
In light of the statement he made yesterday about the
tragic death of Roberator and his wife, something along those lines.
You can you can say, well, that should have been
said before. Why is this such a big deal? Can
I can understand that you would go, my god, this
is awful, but how many other things has he done
that are awful? But Nick Foley, for him, this was
a line that it crossed a line, and as he said,

(06:25):
he's been concerned. He only put it for several months.
I'm surprised he even put that narrow of a time
frame on it. But this would have been a good
time for Daaby to just do that and not even
I don't even know that people would go, oh, well,
now it's all fine, you know what I mean, like,
oh I but just to kind of just getro you
can justify it if you're there to be a business
side by going, we want to let our fans, the

(06:48):
fifty percent give or take twenty percent who are not
saying yes, I give approval to the job President Trump
is doing. We want to let that percentage of our
audience know when they watch our program it will be
a true escape. That's not meaning they're going to disassociate
from a making appearance as a White House for instance.
It just means they're not going to put it on
their TV show. Even that step would have been for

(07:11):
them bold and I think possibly enough to preemptke fully
statement today. So that's just that was one of my thoughts.

Speaker 4 (07:17):
Rich.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
I'm I've talked a lot here. I want to I
want to know you talk a lot. Tell me tell
me your.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
I saw like you.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
I'm not going to go to the original statement that
sparked this because I thought it was so violent, So
just jarring to see U sitting head of state write
something about someone who it's again when when when we're
doing everything and I talk about everything, one of the
things I always talk about is the time I spent

(07:47):
as a young wrestling fan and kind of growing up
in a latch key family where my my grandma's helped
raise us, and I remember watching All on the Family
and learning about Meathead and learning about Archie Bunker, and
how even mister O'Connor mentioned at the end of doing
that show he stopped being Archie Bunker because too many

(08:07):
people were laughing with him instead of at him. And Meathead,
played by mister Reiner at the time, did a phenomenal
job of pointing and poking holes at some of Archie's
thoughts in some of the foibles that he had, and
he did in a way where that series uncoiled a
lot of at the time. What people may have thought

(08:29):
after the civil rights movement were things that one would
talk about in polite company, but never in public. And
I always praise Norman Lear for really I was just
talking to one of my coworkers about this a few
days ago, the fact that when you look at television nowadays,
you have so many people that brag about as they're

(08:49):
writing new shows, they're making them so that you can
be on your phone and if you look down and
you don't pay attention, you can still be caught up
because the script's written such that it's phone proof, quote unquote.

Speaker 4 (09:01):
It's encouraging you to find that second screen experience, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. Buzzword, buzzword.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
When you look at those Norman Lear series, they're built
as almost plays on television. And so when you fast
forward the career of what you saw out of what
has been a super creative actor and then he turned
into a director, and you know, you think about even

(09:28):
his relation, because again that's Hall of Famer with someone
related to Hall of Famer violence. Because Rob Ryner and
the Princess Bride had Andre the Giant.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
And they built all of that.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
My Andre and me and all of the opportunities to
use andre As like a mainstream person. Like so many
kids both born in the seventies and eighties, remember that movie,
and remember Andrea the Giant, and remember all these things
in there. Those are memories that Vince McMahon and his
executives at the time built for money. And now when
you look at the Antheono then now toget it forever,

(10:01):
and you look at the constellations they would set up,
and you see andre As much of his role in
the Princess Bride is his role at WrestleMania's and so
for that person to be the architect of giving him
that opportunity just on an off chance conversation with I
can't I think I've been terry FOI, but I forgive
me for that part. That part always eludes me in
right now, I'm just so annoyed at this that I

(10:23):
can't think straight. It's unfathomable. And for Mick to stand
up and do this. I saw someone post that, you know,
rich Man makes a mildly controversial decision, and that leads
to something I'll talk about a little later in terms
of my resolution that I resolved to keep not as
something to be pithy, but I think it just helps
you be a better human. Mick Foley in that moment,

(10:45):
made his decision and he's sticking with it. That is
so much more determined and so much more available than
some of the CEOs we see around the United States.
So many folks that could have said things. I mean,
I mentioned last week on Everything I was going to
go see the Nive movie. And then Josh Brolin is
talking about when his friendship with the President when they
were younger or not even younger, several years ago when

(11:07):
he did the Wall Street ill fated Wall Street sequel
Money It Never See Sleeps, and he's like, this is
a guy who has a different type of charisma where
he finds what the hole is in your heart and
he fills it and he kind of based his character
and knives out on it. Or at least that's what
the person who interviewed him thought, and that's what led

(11:29):
to Brolin praising Trump's marketing.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
And it's like, read the room, and I think in
the case of mcfole, he read the room and he saw.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
He didn't want to be in the room anymore. And
I respect the heck out of him for that. So
many folks like you look at Kevin Nash, He's the
same person. He'll tell it like it is, and you
notice that, you know, Leveck is smart enough not to
put a person like Nash in a position where he
has to question his values or anything like that. And
when Nash opens up and drops his thoughts on the

(11:58):
current president, Leveck's nowhere to be found. And so it's
clear that they know what they're doing. It's just, for
the life of me, I cannot understand why they find
this to be much like when Michael Jordan was alleged
to with said Republicans by Shoes two being so complicit.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
In allowing this wanton level of.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
In humanity and just contempt for your fellow human in
a way that I just feel is so off putting.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
One should say something.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
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(12:58):
So check it out every Monday night and two day
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(13:19):
your first stop for TV and pay per view written reports. Yeah,
and I'm not pretending this will open the floodgates, but
it is one man taking a personal stand, which he

(13:42):
obviously has every right to do. And yeah, I mean,
you know, I get it, and I applot him for
it and kind of has a This is one of
the benefits of being I don't know his current situation
but notoriously frugal. Is it gives you some freedom to
walk away from a situation that other people might be

(14:04):
going I need this money, you know what I mean?
Like he has been frugal and earn some good money
where I think of all the restlers out there. He's
one of the you know, in the top five percent,
maybe top two percent of people who probably have lived
within their means. Mapped out what if I lived tow
one hundred and five and and has that. You know,

(14:24):
there's the the term fu money, but you know, the
walk away money, Like I don't need this, so I'm
not gonna my reputation. My principles are too important for this.
And you can imagine there might have been some people
who he's friends with or online are just going, you know,
you can't be an ambassador for this company unless in
you taking a stand could be have a ripple effect,

(14:46):
you know, and like I said, I floodgates is too much,
but can I have a ripple effect in my I mean,
this is part of mcfoley's legacy at this point is
to say, you know, this man obviously isn't well, but
he's in power, and more people need to speak out.
We can't continue to like normalize it. And it's more

(15:07):
than normalizing it when well, I guess it's part part
of normalizing it is just going along with it and
standing there with the Dow banter behind you when it's
not your full time. I mean, this is not to
throw a restaur out of the bus. Like, if it's
your career, it's full time. You're in your prime, you're
ininning your money. You know, I mean, I I get it,
you know what I mean. It's like I get not going. Oh,
I just I'm going to give my notice. But for Fully,

(15:28):
you know, you're an ambassador, it's part time. You don't
need it. I just think the threshold, in a weird way,
is is different for him where it's like, it's not
your living, what are you doing still being an advocate
for this company? Considering that Fully has been so vocal
in the lead up to the last election against you know,

(15:49):
Donald Trump, and and so he's already on record. This
isn't new. And so you could imagine some people going,
are you still making appearances? Are you still taking money
from them? You're so public about it, how can you
continue to do that? So, you know, he you know,
good for him, this is consistent and he's not He
can obviously fend off any not that he should react

(16:12):
based on people online saying stuff to him or whatever,
but he can fend off accusations of hypocrisy at this
point for taking this very public stamp.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, I mean, you look at the folks that are
under Legends deals, and its traditionally outside of the folks
they want to monetize, like a Kurd angle, he's got
a fifteen year or something like that Legends deal, and
that is a nice backdoor way to prevent at the
time prior to their agreement, someone like say a TNA
using him for his history or aw even. And that's

(16:40):
really what the Legends deals have been, Like, let's keep
giving you money.

Speaker 4 (16:44):
You're going to get access to collectibles. You're going to
get access to.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
Video game royalties videos if we make them and we
deem that you're worthy of getting them. Very easy, simple,
and then you could say, wwe legend when you're at
the conventions and get a little bit more money. Like
you said, Nick doesn't need that, some of those wrestlers do.
And that's like any one of us who aren't working

(17:12):
at some point. If you're not working for yourself, you
could be working for someone who has a varying state
of ill will at some point towards people like that's
just the nature of things, you know, there's no ethical
consumption of the capitalism. There's always going to be something. However,
when you get these sort of bell weather moments where
you can make a decision. I think the decision is

(17:33):
an easy one to make, assuming you have the wherewithal
the ability to do so. Like I'm not gonna judge,
for instance, because it's always a cudgel that gets thrown
around something like the New Day, any of the rests
of color and the women because if they weren't necessarily
around McMahon for those things, they can't be held responsible

(17:55):
as the executive entities that.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
Allowed what was going on and be pervasive.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Person like Sena as a leader, as one of their
top earners, as one of the folks to have access
to Vince McMahon the way he did the continually say
on the way out, I love that man, and for
them to feature him in the video it was another
mild middle finger to decency. No, forget mild. That was
a middle finger to decency. Even though it was stock footage.

(18:21):
I I I noticed, you know some of the things
like rightit, things like where folks are like, oh man,
get over yourself. It's stock footage. They just wanted to
honor honor Sena. If you can't see that someone doing
something is heinous to the things that vincemcgann were alleged
to have done and.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Or or has not disputed.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
Right. I just want to say, right, he's well.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
People always say alleged to have done, it's not alleged.
There are text messages that clearly lay out a power
dynamic relationship and behavior of McMahon that was was demeaning,
to put it lightly towards a woman that he game
the trust of, And those text messages have not been
disputed as being made up or out of context to

(19:02):
the best of my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong.
Rich No, So we don't have to talk about the
alleged behavior. We can talk about the behavior that is
imhorrent and is out there and has been reported and
has not been denied as being has not been Uh No,
one said it's not true, and nobody said it's out
of context. Who would have a stake in defending it
if it were?

Speaker 4 (19:21):
So.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
I say this not because it's not good to be careful,
but sometimes we use alleged too often and it sort
of ends up being an escape patch for somebody when
it's We don't need a court of law. This is
about determining criminal activity or even civil penalty. It's just
is he did he do what he is accused of doing?
And is that alone, regardless of a law or what

(19:43):
a court or what civil penalties might be, Is that
enough for somebody of John Cena's stature to go. Maybe
I ought to add more caveats to I love this
man and always will.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, And that opens up writ large the one of
the bigger issues I had, even with Sene his retirement,
that was separate from the retirement, which was making it
another tribal And I've said this from day one with
the Janelle Grant case. Do not turn Janelle Grant or
mss Chatterley or the Ring boys into a tribalistic gotcha.

(20:16):
And I saw too many people, some of whom I
greatly respect, mentioning things like all the w W fanboys
and girls who really should have dumped the company when
they found out it was a sex pest layer are
mad that their favorite wrestler lost, like those That sentence
demeans the victimimization of those people for the sake of
you getting likes on Twitter or Blue Sky or whatever

(20:37):
the crap you're on. And I think, just like what
we were talking about with the President, and the things
that he said about mister Ryaner and his wife and
in such a sensitive moment after their death. It needs
to be a layer of Okay, if you don't like
w W, that's fine. If you don't think the wrestlers
should work there, that's fine. But to now say that

(21:00):
anyone who's ever worked there, anyone whoever watches it, are
just mindless and they don't understand real wrestling because this
is paint by the numbers crap. That's a level of
you know, I don't like hardcore matches. I don't like,
you know, especially with the joshi the tradition of wrestling
when you're like super young.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
But I will never take it and say, like put.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
My nose in the air, because these are all hobbies
that at the end of the day, the reason wrestling
is making as much money as it is is they've
taken it out of the mindset of it's just wrestling,
and they've tricked a lot of companies into thinking whether
it's AWWWE, MLW, Triplet whomever, all of these companies have
figured out ways to get because these companies need quote
unquote content.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
We have an audience that's gonna pay money to watch us.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
And I just feel like when you look at the
history of professional wrestling, there's always been scumbags and there's
always been ne'er do wells. We now have the ability
to make rational choices, but because we know more than
we could have back when you know, the fun story was,
let's figure out how drunk we could get and throw
beers on the highway. We don't have video of that stuff,

(22:09):
but some folks will lament those days and look at
those eras of wrestling is like this was when.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
Men were men and women we're whimen That that bothers me.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
All of this stuff bothers me because either you're about
doing it the right way or you're about getting points
for saying the thing I watch is ethics Cure and
because none of this stuff is with wrestling.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
As much as you want to.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Talk about how great and I feel really bad for saying,
but you know, you talk about the greatness of aw
and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
And how you know Tony tries to do things the
right way.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
There was an era of like forgiveness when it came
out that the con family donated to the first president,
the president's first campaign, like give a million dollars for
a celebration. Now he's done things, and I don't think
people should be held. But if you're gonna do that,
or if you're going to say this in WWE equals bad.
If they signed for aw Dozette instantly cleansed them. Is

(23:05):
this like a senator situation?

Speaker 4 (23:07):
That stuff?

Speaker 3 (23:08):
It's and Mick Foley doing this isn't to jump to
go to another company. Isn't the jump? And that's what
I love about this. He's doing it because he's I
can't take it. I can't do this anymore. I can't
just be neutral or inoperative to whatever they're trying to
say and do, even if it's inauthentically bland. And what

(23:30):
I mean by that is I have not other than
when he sat behind his mother in law seeing Paul
Evech so angered that I did when the fans started
to chant and boo him after Johnsena retired, when his
mother in law was being inducted as the Secretary of Education.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
I keep bringing this up.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
You look at c Span and he's right behind her
when someone asks about free lunch for kids who can't
afford it, and he's rolling his eyes and he's just livid.
That she has to countenance the question. That same look
was on his face when he got booed, and then
when he had the audacity with a straight face say
I thought the booze would be louder when he was
in his press conference slash, you know, state run radio presentation.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
All right, let's pause, introduce the show, and then let's
shift to I mean, certainly go back to fully if
you want to, but I'm want to also cover next
Satur's main event. Of course, outcome the Leveck comments move
all the way through. Houto would be kind of tied
a bow around Sina's retirement on Monday with the Gunther
promo and pivoted if you missed it earlier, just a reminder,

(24:37):
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This is a Weaight Keller Pro Wrestlaying podcast on Tuesday,
December sixteenth, twenty twenty five. I'm way Keller, hosts the show, editor, publisher,
founder of the long running Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter

(25:20):
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Within that, within that subscription, within that free free part

(26:46):
of the pw torch app, so or podcast feed is
the word I'm looking for. So there you have it.
There's the plugs. That's how to get more from us. Oh,
and you can watch our live post shows on YouTube.
Just search pw torch or Weaight Keller on YouTube and
watch us live after Rod Dynamite and SmackDown. We also
go live after NXT every week Kelly Wilson, Nate Lindberg

(27:08):
and also after pay per views and PLS. But my
co host here the aforementioned Rich Fan. He is a
p w toorch VP analyst and columnist. He is the
star of everything with Rich and Wade on a weekly basis,
and today they are overlapping as one. Rich, Welcome to
the Flagship.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Thank you as always, Wade is a pleasure and look
forward to Bavin Deep and everything else we have planned
for tonight.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Yes well. Note our email is Wadekeller Podcast at gmail
dot com. Wade Keller Podcast at gmail dot com. If
you are interested in participating in the show the Flagship
anytime during the week, send an email to the Flagship
and we will consider it for inclusion in the show.
On occasions we get so many emails and it's a
big news week and we don't get to all the emails,

(27:56):
we can even record a separate mail banks show. Consider
that even further encouragement to send emails throughout the week,
because if we just get so many, we might do
a special recording and throw another free show web for
everybody on the Blue Logo show. All right, Rich The
John Cena finish is what I advocated for. It was

(28:18):
the second my second choice for weeks months. I was like,
Dom would be a great opponent, Causina can win. The
fans would be happy, not controversial. Of course Dom should
lose to Sena. Dom's not at a place in his career.
We're losing would mean a lot. He can, you know,
slip it on ban appeal, get too cocky, or simply
just get beat clean. He'll recover fine. He's a heel
and he's not world champion level. Gunther is a heel

(28:40):
and he is a world champion level. The risk of
going with Gunther was two things are gonna happen. Either
gun Through is gonna win and the fans would be
sad in the arena, and that would be controversial. You
should get fans a happy ending. You're in control of
the fans, know it. Why would you take that from us?
You took away our celebration. Or the other option was
Sena beats Gunther, in which case everyone says Scene as selfish.

(29:00):
He didn't give back even in the very end, he
was retiring because he doesn't have it anymore, and they
can tell the story. It was one last valiant effort
and XYZ happened with Gunther not taking him seriously or
having a stub toe going into the match. He can
have excuses, but still Gunther lost to Sina. What good
did that do? It was a no one situation. It
was I should say, no win.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
It was.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
It was a situation where either of those binary choices,
no matter how they nuanced it, there's going to be
a pushback, and they went with one and they got
a live pushback, and the pushback came against Paula bac
the head of Creative Fans know it if you didn't,
B's thrown it out there on Netflix with w Unreal

(29:44):
and the Q and A's they have gone so pulling
the curtain back that now it's bleeding into you know,
metas bleeding into cannon, however you want to phrase that.
And this was also a perfect circle, a perfect circle
of they should have seen it coming, because John Cena
is the guy who said, fifteen years ago, give or

(30:06):
take Live on TV, I hope we entertained you, and
no one thought twice of so few people thought twice
about that, but I was like, no, that is symptomatic
of a mindset that is going to make wrestling and
difficult to enjoy at a peak level, which is the
fans go into the arena going wrestlers jobs entertain me
as opposed to I am going to be entertained by

(30:26):
the wrestlers being professional fighters fighting for a prize, and
it's entertaining watching them do that. It switched the goal
of wrestling from your watching a world of combat with
athletes focused on winning too, I'm watching an entertainment spectacle
where the wrestler's job is focused on me, the fan
and whether you're pleasing me. And so it went full

(30:48):
circle on Sena. The fans were not pleased with the
orchestrated planned script did finish, and they rebelled because WWE
going back to Taboo Tuesday and Cyber Sunday whenever we
got to vote for the match they wanted, the fans
decided they weren't entertained, and they rebelled, and they blamed
the booker, even though naively they blamed the booker instead

(31:08):
of John Cena. And for all of John Cena's pr
rich John Cena has total creative control over anything having
to do with anything he does, and whether it was
his idea or he put a stamp of approval on it,
Vince's inclusion in the video, the outcome of that match,
all the cinematic pageantry of the blocking so to speak,
of where he stood and when things were said and

(31:30):
all the gestures. John Cena Johnson is not gonna He
shouldn't deny that that was exactly how he wanted it
to go, because if he didn't want it to go
that way, he has the agency, and it's real clear
he does behind the scenes, even if that's not the
public image he's putting out there to do so. So
that's that's me walking through quite a bit of what

(31:52):
happens Saturday night, some of the follout. I want to
hear your thoughts on what I said, but also add
more thoughts on because you've been doing a great job
with like paul A Vex's body language and and then
what he said afterwards, and how you think he's handling it,
handling the situation might My short answer is he shouldn't
be super worried about damage control because the damage is

(32:14):
done in all the years leading up to this pole
in the curtain back, and then powering the fans to
think your job is to entertain me, and if I'm not,
I'm going to protest in fans should be entertained. They
shouldn't be entertained in the sense that they get the
finish that they want every time. But I also think
fan should absolutely be able to express their opinion and
w has given them tested permission to do so, and

(32:34):
so there's no way to spin yourself out of what
you've given the fans explicit permission to do.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
Okay, So three things came to mind as you were
talking with regards to what happened at the I don't
know what to call it. Was it a pl what
events count? It's pretty you have.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
To pay for peacock extra. I mean, it's it's a
blurred line now because I mean you pay for you have,
say network in Netflix. So but yeah, I think we're
calling ampelees. Okay, So it's not weekly and it's premium.
I don't know, go ahead, it's it's for me back
in the day.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
One of the things I got into before I was
on this side of the curtains, so to speak, commentating
and writing about pro wrestling, is I would make.

Speaker 4 (33:23):
I was one of those idiots that made like.

Speaker 3 (33:24):
The early pre YouTube highlight music videos and things like that.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Just because I wasn't a photographer like you.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
I couldn't go to every event, but when videos did
come out, I was pretty good at using whatever the
video editing software at the time. And when you mentioned
John Cena in that comment, the song let Me Entertain
You by Queen came up, and if they really wanted
to get meta, they would have played that with highlights
of Sena doing the things that you found less than enjoyable,
such as his the light in his STFs, or the

(33:54):
way with which he would shout at a yeoman's level
his spots in the middle of the match, and that
that just tickled me. But in terms of what didn't
tickle me, the video reminded me of the few good
men seeing where they asked. You know, Tom Cruise is
trying to get Jack Nicholson take knowledge. Nothing happens on

(34:15):
their base without his permission, And if he didn't have
to worry about the person being hazed or hurt because
he told them not to hurt him, why would he
have to get him off the case. Basically, it circularly
showed he did order the code read and seen his case.
If you protest too much about you don't have any
involvement in your matches and you just are going to
do the job that you want to do, and.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Then I have no agency. I just do it right,
tell me yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
But then when you show up on the Pat McAfee
show and talk about the fact that you are in
fact going to be in the main event and you
don't know how rumors started that you were going to
be in the first match, when and then follow it
up with well, if they want me on the first match,
I'll be a good soldier. That's that's where you need
to That's where he needed to stop, because that just
is so dis ingenuous it hurts. And when you get

(35:04):
to put in Vince in the video, Yes, that's the decision.
He could have told him at any point, guys, maybe
that's a little risky, or as the road Dog once
famously said, maybe we want to go with the black
version of that shirt. If you know you know that
that's you know that shows me in that company. Folks
know where the third rail is and they decide to
or not to lean into it. And so when you

(35:25):
couple that with the finish I was. You know, I
had someone mentioned to me, and I really respect their
opinion that maybe it should have been John Cena doesn't
give up, but he gets pinned because Gunther gets so
frustrated that he wouldn't make him and I think that
would have worked. But I also liked the idea that
after years and years of him saying never give up,

(35:47):
and the fans even chanting in the in the arena,
which I think also made it worse. They they bought
into his twenty years of saying it. For the first
time in his life, he had an entire arena on
his side saying don't give up. And he gave up.
And he did it with a smile on his face.
And to me, and this is as usual, probably me

(36:07):
reading too much into it, I took it as him
being at rest and saying I got no more to
give you guys, and it's I'm giving up because I'm retiring. Yeah,
But then also this is very much the smile that
him and Levec would have. That you didn't see this coming,
did you. So if anyone really want to go deep,

(36:28):
if you really want to go deep enough, I would
argue This was the moment that John Cena went hell
on the fans. After years of finally or saying that
he got these mixed emotions, he finally had an entire arena, men, women,
children all with him, and in that moment.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
He said, I'm out, gotcha suckers right.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
And then Levett came with the same thing where they
did the parade of amazingness where he doesn't say, he
doesn't say a word, but everyone else gets to come
out and acknowledge him word. The Roman reigns and the
and Levett comes out because he needs his flowers. Uncle
h needs his flowers, and there you go. And but

(37:09):
instead he got treated to booze and chance of a
w and all these other things that made him not
a happy camper. And whenever he's not a happy camper,
he gets sardonic and he gets very acerbic with his
uh wit. And it's funny because it's state run radio
at this point where there aren't going to be folks

(37:29):
that ask the hard questions anymore.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
And even in that, he's.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
Still like, well, you know, I thought they bow a
little louder, and that, between that and his body language,
you saw him just completely nonplussed at their reaction.

Speaker 4 (37:44):
You could tell he was gotten to well.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
He laughed when he hugged Sina.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
Yes, which again, can you believe that He's like, we
got these jerks and you know, a couple, not a couple.
At this point, it was probably like seven, eight, maybe
ten years ago you and Bruce Mitchell had a conversation
about the idea of how much WWE hated its own
fan base and how there was an ad was it

(38:08):
a hellbent status of trying to prove there are no
good people in the world through some of the stories
they were telling at the time. And this is the
ultimate example of this. The one guy you thought would
never give up gave up because he was sick of you.
And then you wouldn't just eat your gruel like you
were fed, And so now I'm mad, and so I'll
figure out a way to get you later.

Speaker 5 (38:33):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host him the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at Pro Wrestling Dot Need along
with other pro wrestling media members, plus The Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunice, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(38:55):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
I find myself torn with this because I want fans
to lose. I think it's I should say I want.
I the point of wrestling that I advocate for is
give fans a story to believe in and let them
lose themselves in the story. And so I begrudge in
no way anyone getting lost in the John Cena story.

(39:27):
It was propaganda for the last year. It was propaganda
heavy dosage the last few weeks. But I think some
people mistook orchestrated refined in sometimes wild West in terms
of seen As, you know, free flowing long form interviews.

(39:47):
He it was everything Seenas has said. And this goes back,
you know, a decade and a half of honing his
public image. Sina is a human being. And this gets
down to what ho Cogan told me once, which is like,
I'm I'm a public figure and I'm also my pr agent.
Like I am, there's part in I mean, I'm putting

(40:10):
I'm paraphrasing, obviously the conversation with him, but he's like,
you know, people get mad when I lie to the media,
But I'm a pr agent trying to put a positive
spin on the character of Hulk Hogan, and it's my
job to market him. I don't feel an attachment to
truth or reality. That's not my job. It's a job
of a journalist like you wide to point out what's
true and what's not. But don't begrudge me trying to

(40:32):
put the most positive spin on myself and my career
or say I'm thinking of coming out of retirement one
more time, or I'm going to run for president. You
might know it's bs, but I'm saying it because it
gets to be publicity, and my job is get the
hol Cogan brand publicity. That's what John Cena does, Like
John I mean. And that's not to say there isn't
a big overlap of what who he genuinely is and
they're just amplifying it and putting it out there. But

(40:54):
you have to be skeptical of the notion that maybe
you can't tell the difference between what John Cena is
saying that's genuinely him and what John Cena is saying
that isn't but it's part of the person that John
scene to. The real person is marketing. Is John Cena
public figure in order to as he's obsessed with maximizing

(41:14):
merch sales, maximizing the metrics that show what a big
story is. That's how we keep scoring this world. And
in order to be as successful as he is, you
have to be driven for something like that. I find
it a little superficial and empty compared to simpler things
in life. But we need ambitious people, you know, to
make all this work. And people are ambitious in different

(41:35):
ways and have different ways of uh, you know, and
some people are more introverts and more extroverts people whatever.
I mean, there's a whole you know, there's a whole
wide range of humans. But let's keep in mind when
we watch the WWE slick polished Machine pump out the
John Cena LoveFest, just keep in the back of your mind,

(41:55):
lose yourself in the story. That's fine, but it is fiction.
It is fiction. That doesn't mean Sina didn't really enjoy
the moments he had with Make a Wish Kids. I'm
not saying everything's phony, but I'm saying everything real is
being presented to you as part of a marketing campaign
to get you to pay a record amount for your

(42:16):
tickets to attend a live show and to watch scientis
main event and buy a bunch of merchandise so that
the people at top can claim they had a great quarter.
That's what this is all about. And so get wrapped
up in the moment of wanting to see a certain finish,
but keep in mind, like they're they're telling a story here,
and as we saw on Monday with Gunther, now there's

(42:38):
the next phase of the story they're telling. And I
don't know, I don't want to I don't want to
introduce too many separate points for a pause. But rich Over, oh,
back over you.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yeah, and it's when you were talking about it, the
first thing that came to mind was Sena's never give
up mantra was something that was at the core of
him being.

Speaker 4 (43:00):
A record breaking Make a Wish provider.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, because while he did it away from the spotlight,
and he tried to do a lot of those where
the company wasn't getting credit, but he was still doing
the work even when he was away from the company.
That's fine, but that's a mantra that some of those
kids resonated with because they're in positions in their life
where they they are trying literally not to give up.

Speaker 4 (43:23):
Yeah, it isn't just I'm tapping out.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
It's like I'm fighting for my life and the one
thing i would like to do if I and I
think people don't think about it that way anymore because
it's become so like this is a beautiful thing being done.
Some of these kids may not live long enough to
get that wish granted. And that's one of the reasons
he did as many as he did, and to see
him even as a heel make sure like if I'm

(43:47):
gonna do these things, I'm gonna do them away from
the spotlight, because I still want to make sure I'm
getting these these that's fine, but when you look at
what happened on Saturday night, I don't think about that
so much. Is the speech he gave almost thirteen years
ago where he talked about what Never Give Up meant
to him, which, of course, because it's a multi million

(44:09):
dollar organization, WW is kind of dumbed down to not
dumb down in that sense, so they've deluded it to
the shirt and the wristbands and everything. He talked about
the idea of something I ascribed to anytime I work
with students, or even when I coach people career wise,
like folks in high school age or even college, the
idea of failing forward of it's okay to lose, it's
okay to do not do your best, but when you fail,

(44:32):
your failure is or you're giving up, is accepting that mediocrity,
not pushing yourself to do better. That is a very
inspiring and that's a very mature speech. But that's not
what they've gone with over these years. They've gone with
never give up equals I will not quit in a match.
I will not lose in a match to submission. And

(44:55):
for him to lose like this and now Gunther to
be the bearer of that there and and if he's
also a man of his work, because that's the other
thing we haven't really talked about, because with so many
of these retirements, so many people say that's it, and
then they come back, and they come back, and they
come back, and then they show up in Saudi Arabia
and tear something and then they come back. If he's

(45:15):
not gonna do that, then that means the last image
of him as a wrestler is being choked out with
a smile on his face as he finally just gives to.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Uh limp taps and calls it.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
And to me, the last image of seeing is him
taking time to recover, standing up, looking at the fans
and saying, that's all I got left. I gave it
my all. And and you know, so much of John
Cena's character or these you know, these these these just trite,
you know, life advice things that he delivers with this
like sense of profoundness that is just not justified me.

(45:55):
I mean, it's good advice. I mean, I'm I think,
I think if you're if you're eight years old or
twelve years old, it's especially good advice because it might
be the first time you're hearing some of these things,
and you know, you can be influenced by a successful
public figure. But he says it like and I'm repeating
myself here, but you know, he says it like no
one's ever said anything so profound in two hundred years
of about people still be talking about me saying never

(46:15):
give up. And he doesn't seem to have a self
awareness of how just kind of kind of trite and basic.
It's good, but it's not new. It's like you're just
a public figure saying things that a lot of people
have said. And almost every you know, social media feed
you can have other you know, if you follow the
right people, you'll get the same advice from random people
online too about life and so his the never give

(46:39):
up thing is a slogan, a marketing slogan, and you
should be disappointed the same Like when I watched Support
Pro Sports. I'm like less so than when I was twelve,
and even less so than I was twenty five, but
still it's like, oh God, my team lost, you know,
whether it's in the playoffs or they got eliminated from
the playoffs like the Vikings this year or whatever. You're disappointed.

(46:59):
You get wrapped up in it, and that's fine. That's
that's how it works. With wrestling. It's different in the
sense it's sort of like a bad Star Wars movie
where you're just like, ah, the director and the producers
and the actors, and they should have done a better
job for me. You had control, and you chose that
and and I and I and that's that's where I
talk about. And this is to me it it. I

(47:24):
just will say it validates my argument that wrestling is
a lot. You're much better off as a wrestling promoter
and a wrestler giving off in aura that the fans
are privileged to watch you do what you do and
haven't within canon. What we're doing is compelling to watch,
but it's not about you. It's about my goals to
become champion, to settle this feud, to put this guy

(47:44):
in his place, if you're Whatdy said about me or
did did to my friend, and it's your privilege to
sit and watch it and please cheer for me. But
when they start turning it into we are an entity
meant to entertain you and no one and there's just
seems like nobody left in power ever thinks is this
really a good idea? It's obviously true off out of cannon,
but it should never be talked about in cannon, and
they do it all the time, and even I'd say

(48:07):
w B unreal Is is a different kind of cannon
because it's part of their marketing machine. This is what happens.
People feel their owed to finish that entertains them the most.
But to me, like it's a it's a having John
Cena stand up and say that's all I had. I'm sorry, Like,
that's that's life. And there's a lesson in that. So
maybe it's not ever give up isn't the phrase, but

(48:29):
it is. It's locked in, as you say, and it
has an origin story that goes way back. But maybe
the slogan should be give it, you're all and accept
your fate. But we didn't get a postmatch promo from
scene to try to reframe anything either, and I think
that's that's what led to some of the issues too.
There's all kinds of you know, micro decisions that were
made and how that played out, from the smile to

(48:50):
the lack of a speech. You know, I had said, hey,
I thought they were building up to mis coming out,
so at least there'd be a feel good moment was
seen and given missinnattitude adjustment when Mis got all cocky
about Scena losing, and I was like, there, you know,
the best of both words. E. The chose not to
do that because they wanted to focus on Gunther and
Paula Vacher whatever the goal was. So I don't know,
I mean, never give up is a silly it's a
it's a genuinely silly slogan to live by. I like,

(49:14):
you know, give it your all is better. It's still
a little too broad for me, but but I get it,
you know, uh, but never give up. It's just sometimes
you got to give up. Like if you're in a fight,
you gotta tap out. There's honor in that, especially when
you're retiring because you don't you're not as good as
you used to be and you're getting someone in their prime.
I just think they framed it in a way that
was unfair for the image of Sina, and they paid
a price for it.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
And I wanted to make sure just this truth in
because I was like, that doesn't seem I think YouTube
lied to me. It did, in fact, lade me. That
never give up speech happened in two thousand and nine,
and it happened after his TLC pay per view match,
because it was pay per view back then.

Speaker 4 (49:53):
Folks.

Speaker 3 (49:53):
That's why not BLA with Seamus? Do you remember that
match with Seamus? That sticks out to me as one
of the dumbest title matches I've in years? And I
laughed out loud when that finished occurred.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
What was it?

Speaker 3 (50:03):
It was the table match where Sena got bumped off
the apron and he stepped with the peepy face.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
Through the table.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Yeah, and Seamus won the world, So that even more
throws me off, as far as that being the speech
that leads to him saying I'm never gonna give up.
I'm gonna read you an excerpt to it. Congrats to Seamus,
he's the new WW champion. I needed to take a second,
and I wanted to apologize to anybody I might have
let down last night. This is kind of hard to understand,
but sometimes you can try so hard at something. Sometimes

(50:31):
you can be so prepared and still fail, and every
time you fail it's painful, causes sadness, and especially as
I saw last night, it causes disappointment. I've often said
a man's character is not Judge Jeffrey celebrates a victory,
but what he does when his back is against a wall.
No matter how great the setback, how severe the failure,
you never give up. You never give up. You pick
yourself up, you brush yourself up, you push forward, you

(50:55):
move on, you adapt, you overcome.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
This is what I believe.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
If he had cut and pasted that that would have
been a better farewell than the trumpets and the everyone
coming out to celebrate it.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
Dude who just got smoked in him ring, And.

Speaker 6 (51:15):
I I.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Think that WWE.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Needs to understand that when you look at the time
you spent making this character, making John Cena who he was,
there was a lot of laps to be taken because
you know, Stephanie's not immune to this as well, by
the way she spent most of the beginning, middle and
end of the show bragging about how she discovered him
and she was the reason for his greatness and all
that pouching it under I'm gonna cheer when the guy

(51:45):
who came off my bus and okay, great, we remember,
just like with the Women's Evolution, you made that. But
now that you know, you get a j Lee back.
We did it together and that's just a Ry McMahon
thing to do. But for Sina, I don't mind that
he lost. I don't I think, and as you said

(52:07):
at the beginning of this conversation, I don't mind that
the fans are upset. I think that's great. I think
Gunther owned it and leaned into it in a way
where I remember being in New Orleans when you had
the Undertaker lose to believe that was Brock and Brock
just came out and it was just booze and he
just kept laughing and then they left.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
And that's this is heat that he needs to keep.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
Or just like you mentioned earlier, I love the fact
that Dominic had a win overseen it as well.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
He goes out with back to back losses and Dominic
needed that.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
I mean, that's gonna be something that'll be on his
CV and that'll be shown for him as he moves
into the mainev and he might not be there yet,
but he's definitely got a chance to be there.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
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(53:14):
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(53:36):
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It's a It is when you think about the machinations
of the different power, different people and power in WWE, Sena, Levec,

(54:03):
and then you have the whole group of current main
eventors who are like, can we stop talking about Scena
please and get back to the people are going to
be here the rest of this month and next year,
Like there's such a there's been such a focus on
Sena and the finish. I think Levec when he says
we did what we thought was best for business, I mean.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
I don't. I don't know that.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I believe that that's not spin in the sense that
John Cena had control over what happened. And if John
Cena said tell me what to do and I'll do it,
and he didn't, and he actually didn't give input, which
has not been the way he's operated truthfully over the years.
You know. I mean there's times when he's like, Okay,

(54:48):
I'll do that, but he's had very much had input
on things. I mean that X creative team members come
on and go, yeah, we have a promo idea, a
storyline idea. John Cena comes in, he looks over it,
and then he gives his input and he he says,
let's do this instead, and let's do that. He's not
not a jerk about it. Some people are jerks about it,
but he definitely said, uh, you know the old this
doesn't work for me. Brother from Hogan Sea. What was
more diplomatic than that, But that stuff happened. So when

(55:10):
Levet goes this was best for business, I think what
people are missing is what was best for business was
to keep John Cena happy and to not create a
big uproar if we felt things should be done differently.
And I think we have to consider that as a
distinct possibility of what he means when he says we
did what we thought was best for business, look at

(55:33):
it through that lens and at least opens up more
possibilities than Levec defending what happened, but instead defending not
fighting what Sina wanted to happen because Sena has power
and influence and frankly earned some deference. We saw that
a window into that when Sina talked about why he
got the title, why he got to bypass the tournament

(55:55):
for the title shot and got a buy he said, frankly,
and I think it was a window window what people
we'll see behind the scenes. I think I have earned
the right to gain an advantage over my peers in
this situation. His wording is even I think more telling
than my than my recall here, but it's like I
think I have earned I think I've done enough to
earn an advantage here. And I think that from what

(56:18):
I hear, I mean that's kind of seen as sort
of a matter of fact, the way of going about
business behind the scenes. I mean, I'm John Cena, and
I think there's a level of buying into what is
largely true but also embellished, exaggerated, built up in market
for marketing purposes, what he has meant to wwe and
I think, like a lot of people, he dwells on

(56:40):
the po He dwells he focuses on the positive and
and is more dismissive of some of the negatives of
his time on Top.

Speaker 4 (56:48):
I just wanted to make sure I had in the background.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Yeah, he remember, he did a whole press conference and said,
I wanted to make sure you all know I'm in
the elimination chamber. There will be some qualification matches, but
due to my resume, I will be in it there.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
It is due to my resume.

Speaker 3 (57:05):
Yeah, And it's it's funny because I don't think he
thought about it the way that it happened. But one
of the reasons Levec could also lean into this in
the I don't I'm surprised he hasn't done it yet.
Is he can pull out the little the fake canard

(57:26):
that well, you know, if you guys remember I lost
my last singles match too at the Super Showdown in
Jetta to Randy Orton. But what he leaves out is
he didn't know that was his last singles match.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Oh yeah, that's that. Yeah, he shouldn't. That is not
a small detail.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
Right, But that's where I could almost guarantee if I
was a betting man. That's going to be the next part.
It's like this has happened in the annals of history
for wrestling. I did the honors for Randy Orton and
Jedda question, Mark, No, your heart condition prevented.

Speaker 4 (57:58):
You because you almost died.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Yeah, and he can't wrestle anymore because his last tag
match was what was at the Club and Triple H.
And then before that he or after that, he had
a tag match at a house show with Shens k
Knockingmore in Japan, because of course going to Japan, he's
gonna be at the time with one of the more
popular wrestlers as the good guy and not on the
other side of that that is actually a wild match.

(58:23):
Shen's Kate knocking More in Triple H versus Robert Ruden
Samoa show.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
That is very much so.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
But yeah, and so when you look at how this
was booked, and he looked at how Sena has those
moments where he shows he can throw his weight around,
but then at the other side he's not because that's not.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
What I do. And then you have to reckon.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
And I think, just like with any human, all of
us are complicated and it is a little of everything
you reckon with the fact that he says, I don't
have this control, but yet I'm gonna have a pay
per view where all these NXT wrestlers who he has
shown an affinity for, will be given opportunities to rest,
so some of the w W main roster folks to

(59:02):
kind of illustrate they're they're ready to.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Belong and even in this and I have a cynical
perspective on that, which is he heard the criticism and
he even said, there's we've we've what was he we
called him audibles in the last few months. Yeah, there,
he was aware of criticism that this was a greatest
Hits tour, not a past not not a past the
Torch tour. This was, uh, you know, a grandize John

(59:28):
Cena into rest Pro Wrestling Royalty, Sports Entertainment Royalty as
opposed to let's draw some money, but also let's give back.
And so I I you know what what better way
for John Cena to give back than to assign three
other main roster acts in their prime the job of
wrestling young NXT wrestlers in a match with their zero

(59:50):
fan investment, their novelty matches, and they will take no
energy or heat away from John CeNAT what he's doing
later on the show. I mean, it's masterclass hull cogan
selfishness masked as this gift to the world, this gracious,
selfless act of I'm going to use the spotlight on
my retirement match to get back to young people. I mean,

(01:00:10):
it's like, I don't know that I'm the only person
saying this, but come on, like that is not giving
back by assigning three other main roster acts the job
of having a match against three largely unknowns to a
big percentage of the audience, a match that has no backstory,
no fan investment, and won't take away in any way.
It won't burn the crowd out in any way from
what you're doing or still your spotlight. I'm not saying

(01:00:31):
some good didn't come of it, if you think the
wrestlers who were featured got something out of it. But
that was not John Cena sacrificing anything. It was a
selfish It had a move with I don't want to
prescribe motivations to it, but it had a move that
benefit that benefited Johnsen. It did not cost him anything.

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Yeah, and the move is because he did this back,
you know, back when Biggie and that crop of NXT
wrestlers and FCW wrestlers were there. It helps because they're
at his iron, you know, they're in his Gym and
Biggie set in a record, and I think that's cool,
and I think there's there's something he said for one
of the top guys in a company, leaning on putting

(01:01:11):
these guys in videos. But at the same time, it's
a video aggrandizing how awesome it is to work out
with John.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Cena yep, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
And we see that with Triple H.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
I mean, shoot point blank gard beginning conversation, we talk
about mcfoley. One of mcfoley's gifts and curses is he's
essential in the career, in development of The Rock and
in Triple H. But in many ways Triple H doesn't
want to acknowledge that, and so he's passive, aggressively kind
of demurred and just let Mick be happy. Santa Claus

(01:01:45):
as opposed to acknowledging that this guy made me. He
can say that now because he doesn't wrestle anymore, But
at the time he would bristle when people would bring
up the fact he had to have those matches with Foley,
just like The Rock did, just to prove he could hang.
And so these people need to understand when you make
a decision cool you book, see it to win you

(01:02:06):
book them to lose.

Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
You book them to draw whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
That's fine, but have the gumption and the temerity to
own it instead of being passive aggressive with your response.
This is very much like uh I believe it was.
Was it Mike Johnson or was it Jason that asked
the question? And then Triple H asks how's your territory going?
That is the sign of someone that really doesn't want

(01:02:29):
to answer questions. They want to give perfect answers, and
they want to have the chance of better than mania
at their NXT show, whether their father in law is there,
so they can plausibly deny it. And you don't get
that because when you look at NXT now, I don't
see Sean Michaels perpetually in a position where he is
trying to upstage one of his best friends.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
If anything, Sean Michaels has turned into the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
Very uncle role that we've adapted for Triple H, but
in a more realistic tone. He's the guy being a
mentor or he's the guy who's demeaning himself at every turn.

Speaker 4 (01:03:02):
He's not making it seem like he's the genius that
came up with anything.

Speaker 3 (01:03:05):
He's just there to kind of keep the lights on
and keep these folks learning and running.

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
There isn't a you know, we don't have with NXT anymore.
This ode to the greatness of the development program. If anything,
it's Sean Michaels, the result of Triple HLLC has produced
this event.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
I think two in the and I don't think Dodoby
should not have celebrated Johnson's legacy. He was a main
character in this, in this fictional world they created, and
that main character should have a flourish of admiration and
celebration as he goes off the air. But like people know,
like they're some of their favorite wrestlers play heels and

(01:03:49):
they think they're in real life they're really good people,
or they hope they are, but they enjoy their performance
as a heel. You might think Gunther seems like he'd
be a nice guy, but man, is he good at
being a heel? They I don't think enough fans outside
the realm of getting lost in the moment. Like I
watched sports. I know there's prite, some pricks on the
teams that I cheer for, of course there are, But

(01:04:10):
I'm cheering for the colors and the legacy and the
sense of community of celebrating with other fans, these people
wearing this uniform who, through no effort of my own,
ended up being my on my team, wearing my hometown jersey.
But they represent the community and in the history and
the legacy of me following this team. I rationalize and justify,
and I embrace, and I have fun with it, and
it's a fun escape, and I you know, don't, don't.

(01:04:32):
There's nothing wrong with that. Wrestling is the same like you,
But don't. If somebody can play a heel convincingly but
you think they're a good person, just keep in mind
somebody can play And this sounds like I'm saying this
is John Cena specifically, and I'm not. This is absolutely
a broader point about the lens through which you should
look at people on TV who entertain you. The baby

(01:04:53):
Faces aren't necessarily good people. They're necessarily bad people. They're
playing a character, and they have a machine behind them
that works just as hard to make somebody look much
better than they are. For if they think they can
market merchandise and ticket sales and crowd eat for it
the same way they market a heel and treat somebody
as despicable and So for every nasty thing that's said

(01:05:17):
about you know, Paul Hayman as a diabolical, selfish manipulator
as part of canon of his character, but you go,
I bet Paul would be a pretty good guy to
hang out with, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
Pick your heel.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Yeah, same thing could be for babyfaces, Like, just don't
get lost in the propaganda. Enjoy the story. But when
it's over, understand And I mean some people like, of course, wait,
we get that. But I think we see in the
reaction that finish, some people really ended up because that
would did such a good job celebrating John Cena, believing

(01:05:53):
John Cena was owed more than he was given, and
they lost sight or didn't or don't understand that's what
John Cena wanted to happen. His arm was not twisted,
it was not coerced. That's the story John wanted to tell.
And just respect it. If you if you if you
believe in most of what has been said about John
Cena and you've listened to his long form interviews, and

(01:06:14):
you go, I think that's that. I think that's a
real guy, and I like him and I identify with him.
Understand what happens Saturday. Is what he wanted to happen,
is how he wanted to go out, and and I
wrote about it for weeks. He want the way for
John Cena, one way for John Cena to go out
as on a shield, and I believed, I believe that's
how he had wanted to go I feared it wouldn't
but I'm glad he what I think is true. I
think he got his way, and I'm glad he got

(01:06:36):
to go out on a shield and tell people I
gave it my all and now can lay claim to
I pass a torch to a guy who's now got
the beginning of a legend killer gimmick that might culminate
in a WrestleMania match against Randy Orton in a year
and a half. And I played my part in that
in giving back, I mean appreciate that once you get
away from the emotions of the moment. Yeah, if you

(01:06:56):
missed it earlier, just a reminder, we're running our second
VIP sale of the We don't do these often. Take
advantage of it now. It is a limited time offer.
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(01:07:17):
that takes nine dollars off. When you check out on
our sign up form pw Torch dot com slash go
vi ip gives you full details on membership benefits and
links to our sign up form.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
And if you want to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
Look in the history of you have folks who have lost,
you have folks who have won. I would argue, and
I was talking to I want to say it was
Sean and my buddy Chris Maylan about the idea sewn Ron, Michael,
Sean rom Radickin I want to make sure.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
Yeah, oh boy, that would be a conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
I'm just saying, you know, don't assume.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, exactly assume. So Sean Reckin and
Chris Maitland, both of The Torch, about my thought of
when you when you look at say, for instance, Sting
and Sting winning his retirement match.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
A lot of Sting's rehabilitation in.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
AW was a direct result of surprise Surprise, Paul Levec
not respecting the legacy of a guy he didn't respect
in the or a company he didn't respect, and so
that very much was picking up the pieces of what
had been a career that had been kind of disrespected
on the way out prior to his injury at the
hands of several Ollins with the bucklebomb. Accidental, of course,

(01:08:28):
but it still happened. I just want to lay it
out as it was you fast forward, seeing it didn't
have any of that. There was no disrespect to him.
Him losing or him winning was his decision, just like
Sting said, he wanted to lose and Tony Connan the
Young Bucks overrode him.

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
I don't think either. I don't think Levec.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Would have been in a better position overall, just like
with the Bucks and Tony if they wanted overrulesting. I
don't feel like that's doing the wrestler more of a
service than disservice. I just think it was decision made
in a moment in time. I look at the Undertaker
and Brock in the one in twenty one and one
that was a moment where okay, they figured it out

(01:09:06):
and they did it, And to this day, the Undertaker
feels like it was the wrong decision and ignores the
fact that he lost other times after that. And I
think that when it's time for someone to retire or
time when someone to hang it up, it just needs
to be a very personal decision. And if you think,

(01:09:27):
as you said before, John's very money hunt. Like so
many people said thanks for the house and and their
and their commentary during that video, and.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Glenn Jacobs did. Who did someone else? I didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
I thought there was someone else that said it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:41):
Okay, yeah, I kind of blacked out when Glenn Jacobs
started talking, So I think I was thinking of someone else.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
I thought Cody was playing a board game too. He's like,
think because he just bought a new house forewears ago.
It was really big, and I like, like, I was like, oh,
he's it's like a play on words. He's he's like,
thanks for the thanks of the house I just bought.
I mean the house, you know, the old carne turn ye.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
But I think that's because Cody also has like Dusties
books and things like that. He always talked about that
during the A and W. And that's where I miss
the ability to ask guy questions like that because a
lot of times, even unintentionally the question you could ask
might be benign, and it gets to something that is
really like for Cody, like having those books and thinking

(01:10:21):
about what his dad was doing and how they raised,
how much money they made at this time and comparing
it to what he was doing in the Indies and
what they were doing in aw that was very enticing
and as a leader, him being able to maintain that,
like look at these numbers were doing, look at the
house we're building.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
Sina had some of that, But what you said is
when you look at that trip to France, when you
look at some of these other shows where he had,
you know, cleared probably more money than he's ever cleared
in his life. And merch when he doesn't need any
more money, that's just, you know, another thing he can
put on his resumes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
It's how he keeps scores, how he's motivated. And I
mean there's stories going back more than a decade. I've
seen as showing up at the building and his first
question wasn't about his promo or his storyliner or his match.
It was about merch.

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
I mean, it's just and I don't begrudge it, it's
just it's just it's it's not it's not besmirching him
to say it. It's just that's that's his focus has
been on the metrics, and he you know, he cared
about attendance, he cared about ratings, but the merch is
a thing that he had more control over and that
benefited him disproportionately compared to everybody else. So you know,

(01:11:30):
if Cody and Glen Jacobs go thanks to the house,
you know, Cody's like, yeah, yeah, you know, I got
my I got my fair share as a mad evenor
you know, or something close to his fair share. Obviously
he might think sometimes it wasn't he deserved more or
got more than or was too generous, whatever, But the
merch is something where he felt I earned this through
my promos and my you know, manipulation of my character

(01:11:51):
in relation to the fan base. And it was a validation.
If they buy my merch, they're spending their own money
on me, not someone else. They're spending money they could
have kept in their wallet for something else. And it
gave him a sense of validation. In addition to the
toys you could buy and the freedom it gave him
and the and just you know, keeping score. It was
sort of a validation for what he was doing. And
I mean it's a I don't that's fine, that's part

(01:12:13):
part of the business. And everybody at their job, you know,
have their ways of keeping score. And you know, some
people work in some jobs. It's it's you know, if
you work for the if you work for city government,
you're you get satisfaction out of driving past a bike
path that you helped to design. That people are using
other people their names on a building or you know whatever.
I mean, it's just different people have different ways of

(01:12:34):
validating their efforts. But that that was undeniably and it's
not something they marketed as part of the propaganda campaign
in the last year and especially the last few weeks,
But that was a big part of scenas Sina who
Sina was rich bring up or talk more you've met,
brought up Sting and Undertaker, talk about how and even
like Rick Flair, like talk about there with Flair their

(01:12:58):
quote unquote final match, you know, the the matches that
were built as a final match that actually were and
how those were handled differently, better or worse or different
for good reason.

Speaker 7 (01:13:10):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
I think at the end of the day, for me,
I think that the biggest like undertaker, they thought the
time was up like no, no, no pun intended with
the John Cena UH.

Speaker 4 (01:13:22):
And then with Flair.

Speaker 3 (01:13:25):
Flair's was part of a really cool storyline where you know,
he just wanted to have again the respect of Triple
AH instead of Triple H adulating and giving what you
should have given to Uh. Flair instead got to Sea
where Sewn Michaels was the like, I don't respect this guy,
and now long story short, you get the manium. If

(01:13:46):
he doesn't win, he's done. I'm sorry, I love you,
which became a great moment but ultimately led to UH
again Rick much like you know famous wrestlers like Alcanto
and Terry Funk and all these other UDEs who have
a great time of retiring then they just never give
it up or even I think about going back to
Terry Funk one of his first retirements where he went

(01:14:06):
up against it at first, it probably like his fifth
or tenth when he went up against Brett Hart and
Brett's like, I'm sorry, brother, you're not You're not losing tonight,
Like I don't care if I got to pull you
on top of me and count the one, two, three,
I am not.

Speaker 4 (01:14:17):
Beating you, sir, with all due respect. I think there were.

Speaker 3 (01:14:23):
Ways for WW to acknowledge that person and when they
lost part of it was in the case of Brock
him being shown as this immovable force, in the case
of Seawn Michaels being able to retire his one of
his idols and doing it in a way that had
an emotional half that still carries to this day. And

(01:14:43):
then when you think about, well, who was there a
third person you mentioned like Sting Undertaker player, oh Sting Sting,
And I think Sting's retirement was as much. And this
is where aw's had an ability. I think that helps
them a lot and gets them so much good will.
They can carry the legacy and the history of progress
I'm sorry that's the word. They can carry the history

(01:15:04):
of progressing without ever having to carry the weight and
the legacy of some of the historical pieces or characters therein.
I think about, for instance, even Flair, when Flair can
show up, Flair shows up and he's seen as the
friend of Sting, not the plane ride from Hell or
I'm not the Planet, you know, any of the other

(01:15:24):
things that one could see as Rick Flair's less than
perfect times. And I hate to be a euphemism for that,
but you know, accusations of you know, pulling his penis
out and turn it, flip it, all the wild things
this dude would do that are just completely inappropriate. You
don't have to bear the weight of this guy did
it on our watch. But it's the part of this

(01:15:44):
is ric Flair, the scam. And when I look at Sting,
you don't have to deal with wwe disrespected him. You
can show him more respect than he was given there,
but you also then have to not deal with the
what's the right word? Lord, the idea of this guy

(01:16:04):
an impact did a lot of the same things he
did in aw but it wasn't seen by as large
an audience. And so when he brought back Yoker Sting
or he did the deal where he's wearing multiple masks
in the crowd, that was kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:16:23):
What is old is new again?

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
And so I think that led to an evolution of
what's the right word for me? Forgiveness, acceptance, and just
ultimately the ability for staying to have redemption, like this
is the respect you should have gotten, We're going to
give it to you.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
In the case of the Undertaker, to this day.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
I mean even we go back to the John Cena
fake match where she's all seena one, who was the
match with the Undertaker quote unquote match and he got
like the eight second match where the Undertaker just.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
Squashed him m hm.

Speaker 3 (01:17:01):
Or you look at Flair to this day, he's just
Rick Flair. There's even when you look at his NWA,
I think that was n w A right, the match
where he almost had the heart attack or had the
various issues.

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
I thought it was w I think it was wi.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
No the one where he the most recent one where
he had the uh oh.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
I'm sorry I was. I was thinking back. Yeah, there
was an angle he did where oh yeah, yea yea
yea yea. I remember because I called him and asked
if it was real and he said, oh yeah yeah,
and then it wasn't, so of course, yeah, wait time,
I'm yeah, it's like, okay, all right, and the Sultan's.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
Got to look out for each other, yeah, I and
even okay, go back to that, or thinking about the
stuff with watching Ashley slash Charlotte in the crowd when
he's going up against Vader and they're like, oh my god,
can this guy survive? Wrestling this dude, or the stuff
with Terry Funk. I love that those things happened because
it gave jeopardy to his career in a way where

(01:18:00):
it made sense because Funk was crazy and Vader just
seemed like another force in nature. And I wish that,
you know, in a perfect world he would have been
healthy enough, because him and Brock and an actual match
would have been stupendous or the worst thing ever created.
Who's this town? I just I just look at the

(01:18:21):
way that some of those folks are in, and if
you draw the line of demarcation, some of them are
before and then after Levek having roles where their legacy
could be affected by those retirement matches.

Speaker 4 (01:18:35):
And that's not lost on me either.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
Is there anything else you want to say about Paul
Evec's reaction to what happens Saturday.

Speaker 3 (01:18:43):
No, I think we've done a pretty good job of
breaking down his body language, his postmatch interview quote unquote,
big Air quotes there and all that.

Speaker 4 (01:18:52):
So yeah, I think that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Yeah, yeah, I just want to make sure we didn't
stray off of that and not return to it. So
Gunther cut a promo brief to the point gloating, and
then you had you know, restlers acting disgusted, Testator and
even Barrett, you know, to crying Gunther's conduct. I thought
they they I thought they swung and missed in that

(01:19:14):
they were disgusted with Gunther for beating Sina, and they
should not have been like, you know, Testaitaur. I guess
you could say, test there is glaring at Gunther because
he was standing on his his work desk. But Wade
Barrett should have said, why are people mad at Gunther?
His job was to win and he won. Did people
not want him to try to win?

Speaker 4 (01:19:33):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:19:33):
I think they got lost in the meta. However, once
Gonther verbally gloated in a distasteful, disrespectful manner, that's when
you have credibility from going, Hey, the guy just wanted
to win a match, an he won, give him a break.
Oh wait a second, that's right. He is an asshole,
you know, Like they could have done a pivot and

(01:19:54):
it would have been more effective. And I just I
don't know how they watched that as badly as I
think they did in the opening minutes of Gunda coming
to the ring and framing the match, because it would
have meant a lot more that the promo would have.
I think had bigger impact if if people were, if
the announcers or at least way Barrett were sympathetic to
the fact that he was getting punished in canon, you know,

(01:20:18):
being punished for something that was meta, which was being
booked to be the guy who so many people thought
should go out on top. So that said, I thought
he was delightful. I thought he was tremendous in his role,
and I liked that it was short and sweet too.
You know, he didn't overstay as walking so and obviously
they they at least did not lean into the stuff

(01:20:41):
about the fans rebelling. I was, you know, you'd have
we have a right to be nervous about that that
Paul Beck could certainly think this was about him and
that would come through on raw, and I don't think
it did.

Speaker 8 (01:20:55):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of pw T Talks NXT, the
longest running nx T podcast anywhere. Join me along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests live every
Tuesday night, just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good,
the bad, and the ugly on the way to becoming
a star in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube
or stream later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
So rich, what do you think of that?

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
I think, and I'd go back to WrestleMania thirty three.
This was Levec replaying what they did with Roman reigns,
only without having someone like a mcvince McMahon to push
back or say it's too much television time. Because of

(01:21:48):
one of the things that I think we've seen with
Lee Fitting and Paul Lavec is they're big on if
there's a storyline beat, they're gonna go almost I always
liking it to family Guy, where the joke gets told
and then you tell it again, and then you tell
it again, and then people get sick of the joke
and it becomes funny again after the about the fifth
or sixth times.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
And so I.

Speaker 1 (01:22:11):
Always stopped at the I always stop at the fourth,
by the way, right, And that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:14):
You have to You absolutely have to. If you go
past four, you're just arguing for trouble. And so when
you look at what he did when the Roman reigns
post WrestleMania beating the Undertaker, it was eight I was
in that range. It was eight straight, nine straight ten
straight minutes of folks boo and Roman reigns, and he

(01:22:34):
put the he put the mic up to his lip
and they just bow and he just put it right
back down, and then he'd soak it up again, put
it up, and finally eventually said it's my yard now
and dropped the mic, and then it exploded in booze.
By having Gunther come out there multiple times and say
what he said and break your bageometer or bitual meter,

(01:22:56):
I wasn't sure which one you've adhered to.

Speaker 4 (01:22:58):
Is the uh I've.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
Done okay, but he broke it by just coming out
there and saying it multiple times. If anything, I was worried,
especially when Aj Styles of all people, was waiting outside
of his car. You run the risk of turning it
into the meme, just like when Aj was with the
club and he kept saying, one thing I'm gonna do
is come out here, put all my tights and beat

(01:23:20):
up John Cena. And you don't want it to be that.
I think one to your point if they go with
the idea that these people are mad that John Cena
lost and Gunther did it that way as very immature
in terms of like his coworkers, because they all have
won or lost matches, it was so much better for
them to have, as you suggested, lean into the disrespect angle.

(01:23:43):
And then you start glaring because it's one thing if
he acknowledges I beat the guy, it's fine, show some
respect to a legend that's now gone out on his shield.
But the way he said it, you've now denigrated the legacy,
like you know, unfortunate. Only last on Sunday, Patrick mahomes
towards ACL and LCL and again with the Chiefs, and

(01:24:05):
then a number of folks I saw on social media
kind of laughing and enjoying that, and that's where it's like, hey,
I'm not gonna that's a level of.

Speaker 4 (01:24:13):
I that's no longer fandom.

Speaker 3 (01:24:14):
You kind of crossed the line, Like I get if
you want the Chiefs to lose, God bless, but when
someone gets hurt and you're celebrating that, that's kind of
like a bridge too far from me.

Speaker 4 (01:24:23):
Same thing with this.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
It shouldn't have been you beat John Cen, because that's
that's the risk you run with anyone, especially in your
final match. It should be the way you show disrespect
to the guy that you've won a tournament for the
right to fight him. That's a problem for us, and
I don't I hope if, as you said, if in
the year and a half he's gonna be going up
against Randy Orton, if the next person he's retiring or

(01:24:46):
he's gonna be on his list, is AJ Styles got
to help him. Because AJ doesn't have a never give up.
AJ doesn't have anything like that. You're just gonna have
to beat the holy heck out of him and put
him down. And if that's what his new gimmick is,
I'm the that puts these guys down.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
That'll be.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
That'll be, But again, that'll be a replay of what
they've already done, just with the Paul avec leaf fitting
twist on it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
The the Aj Styles moment when the camera followed going
through out of the arena, which the camera never does,
and then AJ, even though Adam Pierce had just kicking
throughout of the buildings in an unforseeable declaration by Pierce
that you must leave, and A's leaning on his car
is one of those dumb low IQ moments that breaks
any any even near of of suspending your disbelief. And

(01:25:36):
w W should clean that up. There's there's ways around
this and they get cute. They get cute. Oh look
they're seeing a leaning on his car, and it's it's
it's not egregious in that. Oh now someone's not going
to watch for a on next week. But that's not
the standard you should hold your art to. The idea
is it's, you know, the straight in your time moment.

(01:25:58):
Can you just be a little bit more presentable in
what you're doing for the sake of it? And in
this case, it's so easily solved because you have Gunther
leave the building and he's strutting out to his car
all cocky. The camera's following him because you're watching this guy,

(01:26:18):
you know, lead The job of the of the camera
guy should be let's watch this guy who's strutting. He's like,
as he's leaving the building, he should be it's so
arrogant that it's a story. It's a story that you
would pursue. And that's what they like, don't approach the
coverage of this of this world. They create the sport,

(01:26:39):
this happening, this event. They don't cover it journalistically, but
that should be the framework through which they shoot it,
and they don't. They shoot it like it's cinema, And
I say that derisively because you're documenting something that should
be unpredictable and not something that should go through a
post production process, and they pre post produce something that's

(01:27:01):
happening live extemporaneously without the presupposition is we don't know
what's gonna happen next, but they film it like it's
been post produced, and we know it's gonna happen next
because it's a script and it's amateurer that they don't
see the massive difference between those two approaches, and this
was an example of it. So this thing with Styles
easily could have been we're following him out because of Gunther.
Also in the camera wiggles a little bit because Aj

(01:27:23):
Styles bumped into the camera guy because he is walking
walking out to Gunther to confront him. I mean, it's
just so easy to solve seeing that Aj hears Gunther
got kicked out, And you could have even done a
spot where while the promos, you know, while the thing's
happening with Piercy Aj in the background walking by, you know,
they do that and Aj could have just kind of

(01:27:44):
gently jostled by the camera guy inadvertently, and then we
see Aj walking up to gun Through. I mean, it's
just so easily solved, and it would feel more real,
it'd feel more believable. And they I would say, they
can't be bothered, but that's giving them too much credit.
I don't even think they realize that they do something
so low iq and sloppy and so easily fixable. It's
not a choice. It's a lack of awareness.

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
And I want to They want the moment, they want
the moment way they want that moment of I'm coolly
standing by the car, waiting to intimidate you when how
do you know that's his car?

Speaker 4 (01:28:18):
How do you know when he's gonna be out there?
It is freezing Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
These are all things that lead to this is not
the smartest idea in the world.

Speaker 1 (01:28:26):
Yeah, it makes JJ seem silly, like you got nothing
better to do than to wait somewhere between two minutes
and two hours for gun Through to leave the building,
Like you have nothing better to do with your time,
then to sit in the cold weather outside of And
I'll give I'll give it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:39):
I'll give that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):
Scenea somehow knows it's Gunthro's car. I can I my
suspension just belief, can can withstand that, but it's just
so obviously, yes, they wanted to, they wanted to have
that moment, just but and it permeates the product, you know.
And that's the thing. It's not just a one off.
It's it's symptomatic of a larger issue that degrades the
experience of watching wrestling in the way that it's should

(01:29:01):
that that should the wrong word. It degrades the experience
of watching wrestling as a peak experience for the viewer.
And it's done out of you know, the lack of awareness, sloppiness, whatever,
or or a misguided attempt to create art when the
art should be filming it like journalists filming a news event,
because that's what sports is shot.

Speaker 4 (01:29:23):
Like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
So all right, uh let's see, Okay, Austin theory. Rich
unmasks it's Austin theory. Yep, new look. I thought it
was Gabe Kid at first. I genuinely I really did
look ye for a half second, like, oh my god,
they signed Gabe Kid. I'll from under Tony. This this

(01:29:45):
is news. I didn't see that coming. No one speculated that.
I'm like, oh wait, nope, I mean it didn't take long.
But I'm like, you know, blinked once and it's like, oh, okay,
that's Austin Theory's new look. So I'm I'm I have
obviously in It's trinity a bit of a bit, but
I'm an advocate that Austin Theory has more in him
than the booking has allowed him to show. I think
what's been asked of him at times, he's done a

(01:30:05):
really good job. I think he's he plays the dopey
guy pretty well in an entertaining way. There's an acting touch.
But like with Kurt Angle, he would have been a
much bigger star if they didn't lean into Kurt Angle's
brilliant talent for humor, his comedic timing and treated him
in a more serious way. And you can have conspiracy
theories about why they did that with Austin Deary. Yeah,

(01:30:26):
he's dopey. He's a young dumb jock. They've played that up,
going back to Cargano and The Way and NXT and
candisl Ray. Obviously, with the Grayson Waller thing, he was
just comedy figure. It's basically like Misit Morrison. I thought
there's more there, and I still do, but he's got
to prove it, and he's got to overcome the baggage
of how he's been booked. I talked to Kirk Cadet

(01:30:48):
last night on the Raw Post Show and he was like, Ah,
Theori's failed a few times. This should be his last chance.
And I pushed back and I said, where has he failed?
He has absolutely delivered what's been asked of him. But
what they've asked of him is lower card mid cark
meeting stuff. This is his first chance to show he
can be serious and you don't look at him and
pad and want to just sort of pat him on
the head and you know, and go a nice try.

(01:31:10):
You're dope be aus and theory right, I'm buying this ye,
and that might ultimately be the reaction Rich I'm not.
I'm not ruling that out. But there's people in power,
whether it's Paulavec, Paul Hayman, bron Breaker, Logan, Paul, some
combination of people in power think we're gonna gamble on
this guy who's been defined down and we think there's

(01:31:31):
more there. And I'm along for the ride, you know,
I talk about all of them. I like the journey.
One of the big things like but following wrestling at
this stage is wrestlers on journeys trying to become the
biggest stars. They can contribute to the product in a
way that that that increases fan interest and draws bigger crowds,
and and and and leads to a more satisfying product.
And I'm curious if Austin Theory can be part of

(01:31:53):
that with an all star cast that he's joining. So
I don't think it's a bad decision, but I'm not
convinced it's gonna work. And they gave us a little
to work from with what they did last night, but
that's fine. It's a little bit of a cliffanger going
into you know, twenty twenty six. Anytime you're watching WWE
Raw or SmackDown or AEW Dynamite in particular, send us

(01:32:14):
an email if you've got thoughts on the show or
a topic you want us to address or a question
for us. Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com, Wadkeller
Podcast at petwtorch dot com. If there's anything else going
on in pro wrestling that you want us to address
on our main podcast during our mailbank segments, that same
email applies Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com. We

(01:32:35):
invite that interaction. Let us know what you think of
what we're saying, and let us know what you want
us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wade
Keller podcast at PW Torch dot com. So Rich over
to you for your thoughts on this.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
Yeah, I'm looking forward. I want him to have an
opportunity to see if he can prove me wrong. Yeah,
and not me, but like this isn't something I want
to be that name. But I look at no for instance,
I'll give the example that I've been giving on everything
this entire time. I thought that role could go to
someone much like the time is now tournament, like an
Ethan page. And I will say, and in my defense

(01:33:14):
of that selection, Ethan is already a step ahead of
mister theory because he had a delightful line tonight on
n XT which was absolutely appalled that the wrestling world
seems more concerned with which w W champions were crying
while their coworker quit on their job this Saturday. And

(01:33:36):
he gave his crap eat and grin and paused. And
the fans, you know, the three hundred people in the
arena were they were livid at what he said, and
I'm like, this is this is what you need. Just
like I get Goother cussing and saying what he did
got folks riles, but you need someone to say something
like that and smile in your face. Goother's and I
want to take a step back before I jump back

(01:33:58):
to theater. Goother walking out and instead of being his
normal intimidating smell, having that smile on his face was exactly.
I was like, yes, yes, more of this. I don't
think you can do that with Austin theory. However, I
think because the way they sold it that it seemed
like Logan paul knew who it was and the other

(01:34:18):
members of the Vision didn't. That might lead to maybe
a fracture at some point, but for now, selling it
the way they is, I like this idea of him
being much like what we saw again because Levec likes
to replay his storylines. This is very reminiscent of the
Judgment Day, where every few months someone brings in an
auxiliary member that no one got approval on and then

(01:34:41):
they get ingratiated at the expense of another member. So
if I'm Bronson Reid, lookout brother. But as you mentioned,
the pauls like him and that's enough for him. If anything,
this is another chance to prove they might have.

Speaker 4 (01:35:00):
That.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
Honestly, Vince McMahon wasn't the only person that saw what
was seen in Austin theory, but maybe they wanted more.
He wanted more of the jokey, jokey, and now you're
gonna get through Paul Hayman and boulovk more of him
being serious.

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
Tell me your range of confidence and no confidence you
have based on what we know at this point and
the body work with Austin theory that he will fit in,
and under what circumstances is that, and try to separate
yourself from the sure fire success that Ethan pat would
have been in the role.

Speaker 4 (01:35:41):
I will try hard, but I will try.

Speaker 3 (01:35:44):
I look at it and I tie it into the
promo that Seampunk gave on Monday. There is is for
as many successes, there is a bit of a graveyard
for the Paul Hayman guys that didn't work.

Speaker 4 (01:35:57):
I think a Curtis Axel I think back, I think of.

Speaker 3 (01:36:02):
I'm trying to think of someone else that would have
stood out as another Hayman guy that I missed. Is
there anything anyone else that he tried to.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
Think going back to like the Dangerous Alliance or else.

Speaker 4 (01:36:14):
The thing.

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
I even look at that stable, there wasn't anyone I
thought that was ill fitting given where they were in
the card relative to their position.

Speaker 1 (01:36:21):
Yeah. Yeah, when you said graveyard, it's like, I don't
think that's a busy graveyard.

Speaker 3 (01:36:26):
It in ECW you had some, but again, he was
so good at chopping and changing and getting them in
and out you never had a chance to see. Now,
hey nine one one isn't really or I don't know
if this guy, if if anything, he's done such a
good job at maximizing people's skills. The folks that stand out,
unfortunately are because there was only so much or it

(01:36:49):
was in his company to have the legs to push
whom he wanted the way he wanted. And so you're right,
I think I think I think there is, if anything
that helps austin theory, because the odds are in his favor.
Even when we first saw the original vision and how
Bronson reed joined and he was gonna potentially be the
faul guy, I'm sure he has been, but he's also

(01:37:10):
grown into more and he's had a chance through promos
and become the Shoelafalla and the treble Thief and all
these other fun things they've done with him, and beating
Roman Reigns, which is a rarity for him, Bats helped him.
If Austin Theory, if you tell me, by the end
or middle of twenty twenty six, Austin Theory is beaten
two of their top five baby faces, they've.

Speaker 4 (01:37:33):
Pretty much committed to him. So I'm more on the
spectrum of.

Speaker 3 (01:37:38):
If it's absolutely negative, absolutely positive, I'm not necessarily someone
in the middle. I'm probably seventy five percent positive they're
going to figure out what Austin Theory's voice is and
allow that to be maximized on television.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
Yeah, I'm curious if you know Paul Hayman specifically, or
I mean, this won't be happening without Paul Haymans approved.
It's sort of the thing with John Seen and the
Finish on Saturday. The question is how enthusiastic is Paul
Hayman about these circumstances, this timing, and how he fits in.
I think we can tell there wasn't a lot of
chemistry even off camera with seth Rawlins and Paul Hayman

(01:38:13):
and that Seth was was a bridge to get the
vision from one point to another. Because of the Seth injury,
will never fully know you know how that was good. Well,
I should say that they may if we believe what
they say, maybe somebody they'll they'll tell us or confirm
you know, rumors or you know where that gets out,
not rumors, not reports. But nevertheless, with with theory, if

(01:38:34):
everyone stays healthy. Now granted, maybe alsin therey's gonna be
part of you know, it's going to be a key
component with Seth rawlins in the vision too, you know,
because there was a history of them, you know, during
during COVID, and so maybe the idea to do this
was when Seth was around, and now that he's not
because of the injury, they're telling a different story. Although
Seth could still end up being part of this in
some way and it could play that hand later. But

(01:38:57):
but yeah, so ultimately, as I just kind of think
out loud there, Hayman is going to not want to
add to the graveyard of wrestlers that he has associated
with on camera or even gotten behind off camera. But
you know, got pushes because you know, he was an
advocate for it, even in the early ECW days, it's like, oh,
big show. You know, Kurt Angle, there's gonna be people

(01:39:19):
who are kind of centerpiece acts that you know just say.
You know, it wasn't a good fit for ECW, but
it was you know, Hyman doing doing his best. So
I just yeah, I am excited to see what they
tried to do with a new part of the vision
who is not fully defined and doesn't have pretty much

(01:39:40):
any agency like Seth did to Like Seth just did
his own thing and you could see it. It's Seth turn,
and now it's the rest of the vision's turn. And
there was no cohesion. There was no chemistry there. And creatively,
it's almost like they prepared in separate parts of the
backstage area and that just met in Gorilla, like I mean,

(01:40:01):
they didn't even It's like a married couple that shows
up to the party separately, haven't tap for two weeks,
but they have to put on appearances. That's how it
comes across to me in retrospect, with theory, it's going
to be a lot of thought in a team effort,
and you know everyone is likely to be on board
if if they uh Kurk Cadets said, you know that
that Logan and Theory should team up as a team
because they can be the d bags like not they

(01:40:21):
shouldn't be their official team name. Well they could, but
they can play that up. And you could see Theory
playing that part. But I'm curious if they want to
do that or they want Theory to have his own
if Theory now becomes what stunning Steve was in The
Dangerous Alliance, you know, the young stud who hasn't even
come close to reaching his potential, and and how does

(01:40:42):
that conflict with the story they're telling with bron Breaker
at this point, and then where does Broun brock Lesner
fit in if he does and whatever? Yeah, it's it's
it's it's an interesting added piece to the to the Mex. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:40:53):
And just to kind of throw the list at you,
just because I want to make sure all right in
w CW and you can tell me real quick rapid fire,
because I know we have other subjects and I don't
want to take up too much of your time if
I don't have to. Uh already mentioned Stunning Steve, Austin
uh Me and Mark Kallis. Do you feel like that
was a bad Paul Hyman guy at the time, he

(01:41:15):
was a Paul Hyman guy.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
I don't know. I mean, I i'd have it was
so long ago, i'd I actually have to kind of
relive the I mean, you know, I covered a week
tweek in real time. I don't have a super recall
of it. I mean, obviously it wasn't great, but I'm
not willing to.

Speaker 4 (01:41:30):
Put long term.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
It was a guy who became like a twenty plus
year So that's where it's like the yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:41:36):
No, and that's why it's a more complicated question then
to me, I'd want to do a half hour on that.

Speaker 4 (01:41:41):
Oh okay, so well yeah, hardcore holly.

Speaker 1 (01:41:46):
Yeah, see yeah, test yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:41:50):
Tizarro.

Speaker 1 (01:41:53):
Uh, I don't know. I think so. I think I
think Claudio has has shown that he actually genuinely might
have been a little too Swiss. We're about to find
out perhaps, and we're about.

Speaker 4 (01:42:06):
To find out I didn't right.

Speaker 1 (01:42:08):
Oh god, I'm not even gonna put sentences together for
some of these. I'm just gonna.

Speaker 4 (01:42:13):
Gasper Okay, Curtis Axel.

Speaker 1 (01:42:16):
Yeah, we saw what happened there. He didn't have it
right back, and that was out of loyalty to Kurt,
you know, in the Ani tradition.

Speaker 4 (01:42:22):
And yeah he tried. And that's that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:42:23):
A lot of the projects are if I'm gonna do this,
I'm doing it for my own reason, not necessarily I've
been this has been foisted upon me.

Speaker 4 (01:42:30):
Yeah, Rye Back was kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:42:34):
He even said, h I knew Rye Back wouldn't be
a big star because.

Speaker 4 (01:42:38):
He was such a schmuck.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
Yes, yes, I know.

Speaker 4 (01:42:42):
It's like there you go, big show.

Speaker 3 (01:42:44):
I like that of any if there was anyone that
portrayed brock lesnar for was a guy who was bigger
than him and.

Speaker 4 (01:42:52):
That made a lot of sense.

Speaker 3 (01:42:53):
And then obviously Rob van Dam.

Speaker 4 (01:42:56):
That Rob is just eternal. I wanted him.

Speaker 3 (01:43:01):
At some point I joked during the match with Sena's
retirement that because they did the Hall of people like
you know Ethan Page, who I will never forget or
never ever ever stop support, mentioned you have this haul
of champions, Rob's the only one where Seena should have
like objectly like shook his hand but kind of tried
to make a distance.

Speaker 1 (01:43:20):
Make sure you get past a drug test, just like
just to have the joke.

Speaker 3 (01:43:23):
But Rob's like so far past, like he's like I'm
just here man, I'm just shake my hand.

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
Don't shake my hand.

Speaker 3 (01:43:30):
He truly, the older he gets, the more he's just
just that guy is rob and dam and it's not
just the character. The gimmick is a given. Kurt Angle
great great, and I think Kurt Angle get the people.
Don't they take what he does not want to be called.

(01:43:52):
So I will not call it. I'll just say the
Kurt Angle lost years in impact because he doesn't like
the phrase perk Angle. When he went to TNA and
you know, was on all the drugs and just a
wrestling machine. This is where he started wearing the mouthpiece
that had either like the US flag or barbed wire
or bloody like he was a wrestler capital letters and

(01:44:15):
in the middle of w W at that time, that
was something that I did not think they would have.

Speaker 4 (01:44:19):
And him and Paul really worked well together.

Speaker 3 (01:44:21):
Seeing punk I know at the time people compared it,
even Punkin' Hayman compared it to Bonk Winkle And this.

Speaker 4 (01:44:29):
Is like right in your real house. Well, Bobby, heena heenan,
thank you. So yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:44:34):
I think I think I think theory will be fine
if if this, because this isn't something where you can
feel like McMahon or someone's foisted.

Speaker 4 (01:44:42):
Him on him.

Speaker 3 (01:44:43):
It's very clear in this late stage of his career
he has enough power and he's done enough in the
back where he wants to do little projects. They're giving
him the green light, and so I don't feel in
any way like there's gonna be a hindrance to whatever
this Austin theory two point zero is gonna be.

Speaker 1 (01:45:00):
Yeah, we are running our second VIP sale of the year.
You want to take advantage of this. If you've thought
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(01:46:04):
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(01:46:26):
month or one year sub. All right, let's shift to
just some thoughts on on the Tokyoto main event official
sell up because the crowd in a long time, it's
going to be attending Wressell Kingdom this year, and your
your thoughts on. I mean, we've talked a lot about
seeing in the end of his career. There is a parallel,
parallel story in some keyways going on in Nugement.

Speaker 3 (01:46:50):
Yeah, because of the fact that you have Kanahashi and
Okada in the main event instead of the world title match,
which hopefully Yodosuji is having the opportunity to win the
title over Takeshta, but if not, that leads to who
is going to win that main event. I think tana
Hashi's gonna want to lose, just like Sina did. Is

(01:47:11):
whether or not Geto's gonna allow him, And it's a
doubly weird situation because the guy he might lose to
is a wrestler that was, of course one of his rivals,
and as reporting is shown, was the second choice because
Tanashi wanted chins Kate Knockemor to be his opponent, and
there are too many political land mines involved in that
to make that come to fruition.

Speaker 4 (01:47:31):
I think Okada winning would be a little weird because he's.

Speaker 3 (01:47:35):
A former main eventor who's now with their partner promotion.

Speaker 4 (01:47:40):
But it's kind of a weird. That's a very weird.

Speaker 3 (01:47:44):
Thing because ultimately that would be playing out in the
main event of the biggest event for New Japan Pro Wrestling.
A storyline that's what a minus or a two. It's
not the primary storyline currently in AAW in terms of
the House of uh not the house, it's the the
what is it the I was saying, I was gonna

(01:48:05):
say Cyrus, but the oh my god, kallis family, this
dysfunction and how you have Kenoski Takeshta and and mister
Okada basically at each other's throats passive aggressively at the
Thanksgiving table if not everywhere else. And so if that's

(01:48:26):
to be the case, cool, and they if they feel
like that's enough of an explanation and Kato's found with it.

Speaker 4 (01:48:33):
I had no reason to argue.

Speaker 3 (01:48:35):
But I'm gonna see what the fans think because we
haven't seen Okada in the rings in the New Japan
Ring since he left. And as much as they have
this sellout, is it how much of it is it
to see the last match for Tanahashi, how much of
it is to see Ocatta, and how much of it
is to see Okada lose to Tanahashi on the way out.

(01:48:56):
Because if you get the same treatment with Sina, where
Tanahashi loses in thes are not happy.

Speaker 4 (01:49:02):
That will be something that's quite interesting as well.

Speaker 3 (01:49:06):
And much like Sina, the question of who needs the
main event, you wouldn't want the ISWGP main event to
be the title match, and folks were there to see
the retirement match and now they're leaving as you have
this world title match between Takeshta and Suji. So I
get it like it's kind of like a Sophie's choice

(01:49:28):
situation in terms of what they want to do. I'm
looking forward to it. I think it's a decent card.
I'm intrigued at the younger wrestlers getting their shot. I'm
intrigued at Aaron Wolf and his move from Judica gold
medalist to new Japan wrestler trained by Tanahashi and co.

Speaker 4 (01:49:47):
And so that's going to be interesting to me. And
then also what twenty twenty six looks.

Speaker 3 (01:49:52):
Like without Tanahashi, without Okada, without obviously they haven't had
him for years, Naito and Nakamora, hell Nito, I'm sorry
they haven't had Knockamore for years. They haven't had Nito
for years healthy, let alone now just not having them
at all. So now these young guys have to take
the lead and seeing their champion as you know, hopefully

(01:50:16):
the fancy um no longer as an a W plant
or a DDT wrestler and purely as a New Japan guy.
That'll be a go a long way towards them kind
of start and whatever refresh they're gonna do at the
top working down.

Speaker 1 (01:50:32):
All right, let's let's talk up shift from Okada to
in New Japan to Okata and a W and and
broadly speaking the Continental Classics so far, we haven't talked
since the speedball Speedball Mania broke out last week and
now we've got the Holiday Bash coming up tomorrow night.

(01:50:57):
Okata and the Donkels family against the elite. Yeah, tell me,
tell me your thoughts, rich Well, first focus on the
Continental Classic and we can kind of preview Dynamite and
that'll overlap.

Speaker 4 (01:51:09):
Okay, so when it comes to the Continental Classic.

Speaker 3 (01:51:12):
So far must watch for me has been any of
the John Boxing matches because the story of slowly losing
control of the Blackpool former black Pool come Back Club
now the Death Riders has been really intriguing because it's subtle.
It's so subtle with the way that at times, whether

(01:51:34):
as I mentioned before, it's the nods from Claudio when
no one's looking, or when when when not no one
when John's not looking, and then everyone else is kind
of obeying him and not obeying.

Speaker 4 (01:51:49):
Moxley.

Speaker 3 (01:51:49):
But it's time so that it could you could interpret it,
or John could interpret it as they were listening to him.
And then you look at a young guy like Speedball,
you know of the crazy I would say, is as
good as a match that Speedball had with Kyle Fletcher.

Speaker 4 (01:52:06):
That body slam on the boards.

Speaker 3 (01:52:08):
And some of the other moves are why when you
look at to like Tony always has to say, I
got to figure out who's healthy enough for this week's
Continental Classic matches, you have to put a governor on him.
You don't need every match, and I get that's what
he wants to do, but you can't have every one
of these matches go that far. And that also leads

(01:52:29):
into you're never gonna have a lot of your main
inventors in it, because some of these folks don't want
to go nearly kill themselves for the sake of this.
And then I look at in the Gold League, particularly
Jack Perry stepping up for again one of their stars
that's injured.

Speaker 4 (01:52:45):
Darby Allen got out of one match and he was done.

Speaker 3 (01:52:48):
Now Jack has to pick up what you know, no
points and kind of pick that up, and I guess
he's jungled Jack Perry instead of jungle man. I always
think of the you know, the Chris Elliot, I'm no
longer the oh what was that boy? He was like,
I'm a I'm a someone will remember, it'll come back

(01:53:09):
to me, but that, yeah, jungle Jack Perry. I was like,
I didn't know jungle could be a nickname, but alast, yeah,
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:53:19):
Cabin boy. That's what it was.

Speaker 3 (01:53:20):
The Chris Elliot move movie cabin boys, Like, I'm no
longer a cabin boy, I'm a cabin man. I thought
he'd be jungle Man Jack Perry, but no, they wouldn't
give me the jungle man. Park's been good, Kevin Knight again,
just like Speedball, they're they're they're doing excellent with their
exhibitions and showing off what they are and why they're
such great high flyers. Claudio, I know we talked about

(01:53:40):
the two Swiss joking about that earlier. He's showing he's
got some metal, but I think it might be to
a certain level, and that's fine. But when you have Maxley,
even in defeat, being so charismatic and you see so
much of what's happening, and he's dying inside each time
he can't hit the mark that he's trying to. Orange
Cassidy's kind of just been there for me in this

(01:54:01):
middle classic as well as Roderick Strong. I didn't see
Roderick Strong as the grapple version of Smoke Break, but
that's what they're kind of doing with Roddy and separating
him from the rest of the conglomeration because he isn't
a member. He's just friends with Kyle Oriley, and so
that's leading to I would assume a breakup at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:54:23):
So we've got Moscow, Roderata and Orange Cassidy and Pocket
Kyle Fletcher. Are those the only two kind of classic?
Oh and Moxley and Roderick Strong. Yep, those are the
big three. I'm not staring at the standings right now. Rich,
Do you have it? I do think, yeah? So, any
any thoughts on on what's that stake here because of

(01:54:47):
the standings and the points with these sex Cree pairs, Yeah, sure,
so with because it's too blow Blue and one gold match.

Speaker 3 (01:54:54):
In terms of the Holiday Bash coming up on on
Dynamite on Wednesday, Donaite slash collision three Dynamite slash collision.
That's right, I forgot about that.

Speaker 4 (01:55:02):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:55:04):
Kyle Fletcher and Pac, that's really one of the old
British phrases which messages with me from a math point
a standpoint, but it's what they call a six pointer
because Pok's got three points, Kyle Fletcher has six. If
Pac wins, he pulls himself into a four way tie
in the lead, so he'll But if Kyle Fletcher wins,

(01:55:24):
Pok's basically in the dust because now you have one
person with nine points, one person, and then he's at
the bottom with three with Kevin Knight.

Speaker 4 (01:55:31):
That's not looking good for old Pac.

Speaker 3 (01:55:33):
But on the other side of the Blue League, Mascardrada
and Orange Cassie, they can essentially just swap places. They
both are on three points, so whin there moves them
up into a tie for third, and I do the
nerdy European style because Takeshta and Claudio are tied for first,
that means the next one has to be third. But
you know, or no card, no whatever number system you
want to use. God bless and Moxley and Strong strongs

(01:55:57):
on zero points. Moxley only has three if Moxley can't
beat Roderick Strong. This is the definition of a desperation
game for a team where.

Speaker 4 (01:56:07):
You got to get out of the slump.

Speaker 3 (01:56:08):
You got to prove that you can bear your teeth
and show you're still competitive. And so I'm assuming, after
much consternation, mox is gonna pull the win out just
to kind of make sure he can maintain the respect
of the team.

Speaker 4 (01:56:20):
And he might fade a little later, but.

Speaker 1 (01:56:26):
One might.

Speaker 3 (01:56:28):
Yeah, you're you're, you're, you're that player that you know,
I only got so many things left in me. Somebody catches,
somebody throws somebody whatever. So many shots. Uh, and it's
just not things aren't falling for you. And and he
you know, shooters got to shoot that That pun I
was unintended, but.

Speaker 4 (01:56:45):
Fits for Moxley because he's that's his gimmick. Now I'm
the shooter.

Speaker 3 (01:56:49):
I go in there, I wrestle guys, and I fight
him and chips fall when they fall where they may
with my uh death chitsu.

Speaker 4 (01:56:56):
I believe he calls it and so.

Speaker 3 (01:56:59):
I I hope that with the Holiday Bash, whether it's
Dynamite or Collision, we get to see the fallout of
whatever happens, because I feel like if it's a win
for Moxley, you get some begrudging respect and the time
is maintained. If he loses, he's almost at what they
call for some of these coaches and sports like the
vote of confidence, which really is the vote of no confidence.

(01:57:21):
When the owner comes out and says, oh, yeah, this
person's fine in their job.

Speaker 4 (01:57:24):
That means to start packing your backs.

Speaker 3 (01:57:27):
John needs that with this win, and that desperation is
going to lead to a really fun match.

Speaker 4 (01:57:37):
I'm Chris Maitland and I'm Justin McClelland we host.

Speaker 7 (01:57:41):
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Speaker 9 (01:57:46):
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No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester, oh right.

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Speaker 1 (01:58:52):
Other matches on this three hour special, I mentioned the elite,
can't you Megan, the Young Bucks, and that Don kallis family.
What if anything do you think is gonna be a
talking point coming out of this match other than me
and callous or we're sing O, Meghan and OCD against
each other on on a Wednesday night.

Speaker 3 (01:59:12):
Yeah, and it's gonna be what is it the et
cicero to catch it and sorry, yeah, hatches her.

Speaker 4 (01:59:18):
So I'm assuming there's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (01:59:22):
For the finish for this million dollar match, because that's
how you know, of course, Oh, I buried a little,
you buried it. Wait, a million dollars on the line,
you gotta do.

Speaker 1 (01:59:30):
And I love the translations and in parentheses in the
graphics seven seven hundred and fifty pounds.

Speaker 4 (01:59:35):
Yes, and I had it that.

Speaker 3 (01:59:37):
There's a giant oversized check at the end of this
match that's given, and then the next storyline is who
cashed the check because Don will keep the money as
he always does. I think the story is gonna be
a little bit of the Okada Omega, though if you've noticed,
they've kind of moved away as Kenny's wrestled fewer and
fewer matches, They've kind of given him the chance to
breathe as Kenny Omega of twenty twenty five, twenty six

(02:00:00):
instead of the Kenney Omega twenty eighteen nineteen. I think
that'll be a story, and I think the story of Takeshta,
most likely costing them that match, either by disappearing in
the middle of it or doing something to screw O
Kata by way of maybe Cesro take eating the loss
the Dynamite Diamond Battle Royal. I think that's gonna be
not necessarily for the sake of the ring, but most

(02:00:22):
likely because of the return of MJF because that dude
he's won every year or I'm sorry, he's retained the
ring every year since he's won it, so I don't
see it going any other way. The Tag Champ match
between Juice and Austin Gunn, I just think that's gonna
be a match just there, and that's nothing against.

Speaker 4 (02:00:45):
Juice and Austin Gun.

Speaker 3 (02:00:46):
I just feel like Jus and Austin gun aren't it
yet in a position where you see them as a
tag team other than a memorial tag team to honor
the fact that Colton is not there right now by injury,
and Juice has gone back to his bearded crazy ways,
but we really haven't seen him get I think some
of it's.

Speaker 4 (02:01:04):
Because Whitchblade still hurt.

Speaker 3 (02:01:06):
Juice works better when he's the animal of the Muppet
Babies or the Muppets. He doesn't work better when he's
the crazy guy that's now the lead character, and I
think they need the sooner. They fix that the sooner
Juice can kind of get back to being the fun,
awesome character he has been in the past.

Speaker 1 (02:01:22):
Ah, very good, All right, Rich, We got to no emails,
but we have so many that I'm going to plan.
I don't want to hedge too much because you know,
the week can get crazy. I'm gonna plan to do
a separate Weight Coller Progressing podcast mail bank special with
the co host to be determined, and we'll cover that later.

(02:01:44):
Just there was so I mean, obviously with Sina mcfoley
Austin theory. I mean, there's just some really big talking
points on the show that deserve the time we gave it.
But what that is it's an opportunity for you to
still get a question and to add to the mailbag
and the addresses Waight Keller podcast at gmail dot com,
Wade Keller Podcast at gmail dot com. As you're listening

(02:02:07):
to this, if you haven't seen a mail big pop
up yet, then that's your queue two email, a question
or a topic. In fact, would love for some pushback
if you've got a different opinion. It doesn't be pushback,
but like, if you think there's you have a different
point of view and you want to express it and
get our take on it, that is a good approach
to take. Send us an email. We'd love to hear

(02:02:27):
a different point of view, but obviously just bring up
a completely separate topic, because my gosh, there's so much
that is going on right now that we didn't get
to the w W Women's division and the Netflix special
see them Punk Stellar promo on Monday. Do agree with that, Rich?
That was one of his better promos since his return.

Speaker 8 (02:02:46):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:02:46):
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, you know, so, anyway, I could list
all the things. There's a lot going on, and then
we've got T and A around the corner, landing on
a bigger cable platform. So yeah, sending questions and we'll
again plan to do a dedicated mailbank episode later. Since
we're approaching two hours here, I don't I want to
give you proper attention to the emails and not rush

(02:03:07):
through them. Rich, is there any other topic you want
to bring up before we sign off? I'm not We
don't have to end up this moment. It don't feel pressure,
but I'm just saying we're not going to get to
the to the emails because they're just I wouldn't even
have time to read them, much less answer them at
this point. But what else is on your list of
things you might want to bring up here as we

(02:03:28):
wrap up?

Speaker 3 (02:03:29):
I would say the one thing I would like to
add and on the way out is just really given
credit to right now a little bit of history being
made because the twenty twenty five Tokyo Sports Awards came
out and the Most Valuable Player the award that I
remember that Kenny Omega Lamentity never won, Saya Kamatani won

(02:03:54):
it this year. And so the fact that you have
a joji wrestler that is bringing women's professional wrestling into
the forefront like that and winning this award is something
that is really cool. That's she won both awards, So

(02:04:15):
this isn't She won the most Valuable Player award and
most Valuable Women's Wrestler award, and so that's a very
rare thing to happen, and so she is the first
woman to do it. That's for New Japan, that's something
they should hang their hat on. That for stardom, this
is something that should helped differentiate them from Mighty Gold
and some of the other women's promotions social or Joshi Bros.

Speaker 4 (02:04:36):
Etcetera.

Speaker 3 (02:04:37):
And when you're selling, like when you have a partner
like AW, we're saying with the best wrestle, I would
be trying really hard to get Saya Kamatani into opportunities
to wrestle here in the United States and put eyeballs
onto stardom, as opposed to as a precursor, for instance,
to come to AW.

Speaker 1 (02:04:56):
We're good, nice, nice, and tad rich anything else.

Speaker 4 (02:05:00):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (02:05:00):
So I wanted to end on a positive and yeah, yeah,
I think it's ethan page. Last time we did everything,
I think we ended on something that was just so depressing,
and I was like, yeah, so now I think this
is a good way to end it. And I would say,
especially since we're going into the holiday season, for those observe,
enjoy the holiday.

Speaker 4 (02:05:18):
And if you don't see me before then, and.

Speaker 3 (02:05:20):
I know that I am hoping that you have a
wonderful end of twenty twenty five and look forward to
if you don't hear from me in twenty five and
wonderful twenty twenty six.

Speaker 1 (02:05:30):
Same here, Thanks everybody, and we'll talk to you next time,
which will be the mail Bank edition of the Way
Coller Person Podcast, Fall goos As Plan and also after
a special three hour time of My Splash Collision Big Episode.
A lot of cool stuff on that one. Thanks everybody
and keep spreading the word about our show like you
come on social media. If you enjoy the show that
they should check.

Speaker 7 (02:05:50):
It out.

Speaker 1 (02:06:09):
If you missed it earlier. Just a reminder, we're running
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Speaker 5 (02:07:04):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
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(02:07:25):
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Speaker 1 (02:07:35):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Speaker 10 (02:07:58):
Meet an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
Will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
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(02:08:19):
for wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and our
Eye Was There When shows where our guests will join
me to talk about a classic bout that they were
in attendance for. We love variety and you can expect
lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed pwof Torch

(02:08:41):
VIP subscription information and a list of all the VIP
benefits is available at pterwrew torch vip info dot com.
And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream
them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site.

Speaker 4 (02:09:00):
See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (02:09:02):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weight Keller Prossing
podcast and Weightkeller Prossing Post show and give us a
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Speaker 11 (02:09:39):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (02:09:54):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
access to these shows and a ton of other VIP
exclusive podcasts throughout the week, but you also gain access
to our unmatched vast library of wrestling history, our contemporaneous
week to week coverage through our progressing Torch weekly newsletters
dating back to the late nineteen eighties, along with streaming
and download access to hundreds of retro radio shows from
the nineteen nineties, including some of my interviews with wrestling's

(02:10:31):
top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast library
dating back to the year two thousand and three. There's
no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than that
that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now approaching
twenty years of podcasting, Go vip and dive into our
post pay per view roundtables are covered with some of
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(02:10:54):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
Pwtorch dot com slash go vip. We have a streamlined
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