NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Heydorn talk WWE roster depth after Seth and Fatu injuries, Cena's last opponent, Moxley-Darby, Joe's turn

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
All Right, Zach Seth roll on Strip to the World
Title Another injury, sidelining Seth for a while. I mean,
it's a bummer. It's a consequence of his style. His
style is part of why he is where he is.
That's a whole other topic, but right now the reality
is that that would be unfortunate has to shift away,
and they did last night on Raw, and they ended

(01:42):
up I think doing a good job, although I'm very open,
you know, kind of too different perspectives in terms of, yeah,
but this it makes sense, or maybe that could have
been done better. Definitely, that's always that's always a case
to different degrees. But overall, I thought they did a
good job making sure that they incorporated that Seth was
really hurt, and then it was exacerbated by brown Breaker

(02:04):
and Bronson Reid. You don't want to make it seem
like they're gaslighting us that he was fine when obviously
he wasn't at against Cody, and then they made a
clear where heels. They made it clear that they said
this was always transactional between these two, and that lack
of chemistry was apparent the whole time. I thought, and
now they're kind of owning that and that they both
are kind of trying to use each other and now

(02:25):
we have and I think you know, they needed the
quick turnaround, So Abottle Royal is what you go to
if youre trying to get a quick turnaround. But at
least it's just to determine one of the two challengers
and then seeampunk is the other number one contender. And
so we have the jay Uso situation, but also a
whole subplot there with Jimmy and Roman that I think
is fascinating. I'm feeling good about this. I don't know

(02:47):
what the alternative would have been a Seth was still around,
but I think this is good. It's not great. A
lot of this feels like it's the same people kind
of feuding with each other over and over in various
rematches because of a variety of factors. But how did
you in a very macro sense, is there anything I
did in terms of how I framed it that you
kind of thought differently about while watching roll last night
and thinking about it and reading about it, or are

(03:07):
you kind of on the same page with me as
far as.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I was, No, I'm very much on the same page
with you. I think that they you know, and given
the circumstances of Seth Rollins getting injured, and the the
notion and reality that he was such a focus of
Raw and even just the whole company coming out of
Crown Jewel, you know, getting the win over Cody again,

(03:29):
finally getting that win back, like he was clearly going
to you know, have a big role in the next
you know, in the coming months, to finish off this year,
head into the next year. And so when you lose him,
you know, you really you're you're You're left trying to
pick up the pieces. And I think when you kind
of stipulate to that circumstance, I think they did a
better job than they normally do with with this kind

(03:51):
of thing. I think a lot of times you'd see,
wwe you know, take this opportunity to just you know,
go one way or go another way without a lot
of thought or reason because of the circumstance, because while
he's injured, so we got to we got to get
to somewhere. So you know, logic be damned, or the storyline,
consistency be damned, or this character, you know, consistency be damned.

(04:13):
And I thought they did a really nice job yesterday
of kind of landing landing the plane. It seems like
they fit the puzzle pieces together, and I think everything
with the vision comes across as as rushed, you know,
like that maybe this was the idea for eight months
from now or nine months from now, but you know,
given the injury, you you you gotta you gotta change plans.

(04:37):
And outside of just the pace of that turn, I
think they got everything in a in a good position.
Like when you take into account and you look at
the vision from the last whatever since WrestleMania, I think
everybody kind of felt that it was just missing, like

(04:57):
a little bit of something like that. Paul should probably
be more involved, but he doesn't really have a spot
to be more involved because you want Seth to talk
and you want bron Breaker to get some time on
the mic, and like you, so he just kind of
was involved, but not in a way that could really
make a difference. And I think the best thing about
what they've done so far, because it sets injury and

(05:20):
last night especially is they put Paul Hayman right at
the front of this of this storyline and of this
of this angle, you know, I mean, yesterday I thought
was a concerted effort to you know, yes, the Wrestlings
guys are bron Breaker and Bronson Reid for sure, but
they had that one backstage segment where he's like, look,
I've got I've done this. I've done this with Brock,

(05:41):
I've done this with Punk, I've done this with Roman.
It's my thing. You guys are gonna listen to me. Like,
I think what they did yesterday was they put you know,
the most talented guy right now, and they are going
to give him a chance to kind of run with things.
It's weird because he's not the wrestler, but I think
it's gonna make for the television and in the long run,

(06:01):
I think it'll it'll help bron Breaker and Bronson read
a hell of a lot too.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I've been thinking about where this would have gone if
Seth stayed healthy, and I don't know, like you mentioned
earlier in your answer there or you're what you're saying,
like you know, they this is probably what they had planned,
but they had to move it ahead and the context
would be different. But I'm i'm i'm if this is
the thing that I've been trying to process this. If

(06:28):
Seth were healthy and this happened, did would Seth have
turned babyface instantly?

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Would that?

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Would Becky have been involved because they want Breaker and
read a name and to be heels. And I think,
are you thinking they would have if the vision split,
that they would have both remaine heels but enemies, or
that Seth would turned baby face, or that perhaps Bronson
and or Red and or Hayman would have been babyface
and Seth would have remade a heel. So let me
establish that first, because maybe we're on a different page
on that.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
Yeah, I kind of thought that the way they were
tracking on this, like is that Seth would have stayed heal,
you know, and then you would have had bron Breaker
kind of break away no pun intended. As as the
baby face if this was like something that would be
like a long, a long term story. I think, like

(07:15):
the fact it seems to me that like the fact
that Seth got injured and he's going to be out
for like what sounds like a really long time, that
there's just an inevitability that when a guy like that
comes back, he's coming back as a good guy. People.
They made the mistake. They made that mistake with Seth
Rollins once before, and and you know, I don't know
that he ever recovered from that. And I think that there's

(07:37):
just a recognition of like, well, if Seth's gone for
a year and he comes back, there's no way we
can bring him back as a as a heel, but
we can bring him back as a babyface. And he's
got bron Breaker to work with, and he's got Bronson
Reid to work with, and he's got Paul Hayman that
he confused with, So let's just flip this on his head.
That that's my inkling yes.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
And back when Seth was out for a long time
and then made his comeback, that was at extreme Roles
twenty sixteen. I was in Newark, New Jersey in the
arena for that and it was I was the pop
he got coming out for the fans anticipating him being
a babyface, right was huge, And then he attacked Roman
Rains in the crowd is like, oh, you're still a heel,

(08:20):
and it just took the wind out of the sales
of what could have been an amazing babyface run for him, right,
and I agree with you like the incline, And they
had aired that inspirational comeback video like it was so
tone but yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
They had like the twenty four episode of an Hour
about him making his Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, so you're like, you're prepped, like, oh, this is
gonna be in I mean, they and I'd have to
get myself back in the head space at that time.
We obviously covered immersively, but I don't know if they
just thought, well, we can't have set because that'll undercut
Vincent any that will undercut the dedication to who we
want Roman Rains to be, and so they sacrifice Seth
to continue with the struggle to get fans to accept Roman,
who just you know, in that role was not as

(08:58):
the big dog, was not cast well as a baby face,
says Paul put it out less than a raw in
so many words. So, yeah, you know, what if that
happens again. It's interesting though that, you know, like, I
don't know if they broke up. I'm not convinced that
breaker would go on Babyface this soon, but I'm not
ruling it out either. I'm intrigued, and I don't think
there's been reporting on it. I would like to find out, like,

(09:19):
did they agree all along that Hayman and Seth did
not have chemistry? And then was that sort of by
design for the moment we had with Hayman and even Becky,
you know, and or Seth would have probably done it himself,
going I was using you, oh really, well, I was
using you, oh really? You know, like in Fantasy Go
No Wonder, they sort of never seemed to bond and
have a real vibe with each other like Hayman had

(09:41):
with all these other people he mentioned at the promo
last night, and then he has with bron Breaker. It's
clear he favored Breaker and Read and Seth was sort
of not overtly a competitor for the Alpha role, but
he was as a term as boguarding the scenes. I mean,
Seth more often than not was doing most of the talking.
Hayman was off to the side. And so that's another
point that you brought up that I wanted to bring up,
which is one of my biggest criticisms of the vision

(10:03):
very early on, is I didn't want to hear Seth
drown on for fourteen minutes at at point seven to
five speed with Paul Haman standing next to him. I
was hoping, with joining ham And that Seth would pick
a spots talk less, have a different demeanor for you know,
a different look that isn't you know Elton John meets

(10:23):
whoever you know? And the cacilaps and the over the top,
you know, flamboyants. And I was like, no, we'll get
a different Seth, a more serious Seth, and this would
be a new chapter and Hayman will get to make
redefine Seth by doing the majority of the talking and
standing up front.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
And that never happened.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
So I'm not lamenting the loss of the vision in
that form at all, but I am not sure if
they didn't and I said it along, you know, this
might be by design. This might be a bridge, This
faction might be a short term bridge to get somewhere else.
It probably is, and therefore they're not giving it. They're
all but is that manifesting intentionally for us to pick
up on clues or was that manifesting because that's like

(11:03):
I want to get my set stuff in and Haman's like, okay,
but I'm not going to help you get over then
if you're going to try to, you know, like, is
there a behind the scenes, like a chemistry And to
me that what we saw on TV was also consistent
with him and going.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
Yeah, go bury yourself.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
I could have helped you, but I'm not because of
your attitude towards wanting to dominate the talking segments.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
But it also could have been an edict from Levett.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yeah, and it also could just be like I don't know,
you know, it could it could just be a retcount
of that whole situation and just framing it this way now,
you know, I think it could. That could be that too.
But I think the most important part is that I
think you know, they landed it in a in a
in a good spot. I think it's it's important for
for Haman to be I think the at the forefront

(11:48):
or near the forefront, not physically, but just in terms
of like being in control of of that act. I
think he he can get it over, he can get
breaker over and read over, and I think it's good
to see them make you know, that pivot definitively where hey,

(12:08):
he's like, this isn't gonna be Hayman. You're afraid of
Solo so CoA and the new bloodline faction, Like, I
don't think this is gonna be that, this is gonna be.
This is Hayman's thing, and I'm looking forward to seeing
what that looks like.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
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(12:46):
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All right, well, let's pause our conversation here and introduce
the show. This is the Waight Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast,
the Tuesday Flagship episode for October twenty first, twenty twenty five.

(13:06):
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(13:27):
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We are here on the flagship talking about a wide
array of topics, and in this episode we're going to
continue down the path of doing an in depth exploration
of WWE's depth chart, mostly on the men's side. We'll
get into the women's side a bit too, but with

(13:49):
the Seth injury, the Jacob At two injury, the lay
of the land, with John Cena retiring, who We're going
to talk about who who we things opponent should be
and could be in the list of who we think
are realistic candidate. And we'll also get into Cody rhads
in his future looking ahead to twenty twenty six and
some cards that they can play there, and just analysis
of kind of looking at the raw and heel excuse me,

(14:14):
the heel and face side of both Ron SmackDown, especially
on the men's side. Are they positioned pretty well or not?
Or do they need to shake up or call up?
So that's going to be kind of the main thrust
of the show. Also, we will talk aw the Darby
John Moxley match, the finish, the return of sting the
Big Anglo Samo Joe turning heel on a Hangman page,

(14:35):
and a general discussion on aw we'll get into in
terms of are they in a better spot than they
were a year ago?

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Why?

Speaker 1 (14:42):
And where are they still coming up short. The co
host today is Zach Cadorny is a former PW Torch
assistant editor now heads up Sports Illustrated's wrestling coverage. And
it's great to have Zach back on the show. So
let's get back to our discussion with Zach Cator. Hayman

(15:02):
is so good and like last night it was, it's
a reminder of when you give him more time to
tell a story in the way he told it. I mean,
there were multiple, uh chapters of what Paul Haman did
last night on Raw that were stellar. I mean, the
interaction with Becky Lynch, the interaction right before that with

(15:24):
GM Adam Pierce, the way that he explained his take
on the whole on why because it was there was
clarity and again it could be retcon but the clarity
of read and Breaker conspired to do this, and Hayman

(15:45):
was implying that he was not in on it and
that the decision we saw him make last week at
the end of Raw, which Michael cole completely walked walked
over and blew He's it was a cole On announced, Yeah,
it was coll calling the angle and it's like this
huge moment happens where Hayman chooses and it wasn't a surprise,
but it still was confirmation in a big moment because
Hayman was like, I don't know how I feel about this,

(16:07):
and not that he was going to side with Seth,
but would he act like I didn't sign off on this, No,
I'm endorsing it. And he did it on the spot,
but it felt like it was a moment he had
to decide there, which made it seem like, Eather, he's
tricking us into thinking he wasn't in on it, or
he wasn't in on it and decided to join Breaker
and Read And then what does that mean to the
power dynamic? Will he'd be mad they made that decision
without him. There's some things that they're not i'd say

(16:30):
fully owning. And the one thing in this is and again,
tell me if you think I'm missing something or there's
another way to look at it. When Hayman says Read
and Breaker conspired to take down Seth the way they did.
He is implying he was not part of it, that
they were gonna take Seth's spot from him, And that

(16:53):
is Hayman admitting they did something without asking him. And
I think that's why. And if there's a cognizantion of
that on Hayman's part, why Later in the show he
wanted that saying with Breaker going, I understand we're not
in the Battle Royal kind of you know, just flipping
out like, you know, impulsively and you know, reacting being
a reactionary guy like Breaker has been intentionally portrayed to
be deliberately Haman's like, wait, let me tell you my history.

(17:16):
I did this with Laisure, he was a hothead. I
did this with I did this with Seampunk, he was
a hothead. I did this with Roman Reigns and directed
him in the right way. You gotta trust me. And
then Breaker and read kind of contemplate and go okay,
And to me, that was sort of like saying we
got rid of Seth. I probably should have been informed.
But he doesn't want to lead on that too much,
rut too much attention to the fact that he wasn't
but he doesn't want to assert to them and the audience.

(17:39):
I am now in control and it's my group, and
that's where I wanted it to be from day one
with Seth, and it wasn't. But now we are landing there,
and so I think they navigated the waters well.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
I think.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Hayman included and excluded, emphasized and deemphasized everything along that
in terms of the clean up that needed to happen
here to kind of reset things. I think it was
all deliberate and I think each decision you can see
why they did it the way they did it, and
I think they landed in a good place and now
they just need to move on to the next stage
because Seth is not available for quite a while.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, exactly I viewed I viewed it very very similar
to that. I mean, Paul Hayman, you know, there's I
think if if he were, you know, to sit here
right now, I think I don't think there's a lot
that he likes to do out there that isn't that
isn't calculated, that isn't for a reason, And he got

(18:36):
to show it last night. I mean, he really was
juggling a lot and the segments that he was in
were I you know, I think the most entertaining parts
of the show, and we'll kind of like define the
show for the rest of this year and into next
and he's in. He's going to be a big folkal
point of that. And and I I think that's again,
I think that's like one of the most exciting things

(18:58):
about this I mean, I think it's inevitable that bron
Breaker is going to be, you know, a big star.
I think Bronson Reid is going to be a big star.
But right now, you know, if if they keep on
this on this path for a little bit, like we're
gonna see like Paul Hayman, you know, as kind of
like a lead guy on the show. And I think
that's gonna be pretty fun.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, I'm not wishing. I'm not happy that seth center.
I don't want any courses badly, but you also want
to make the best of a bad situation that's out
of your control. And and I think, you know, we're
in that zone right now. But that does mean that,
you know, bron Breaker has to step up and be
ready now. Having Paul Hayman at work with him helps,

(19:43):
but it didn't help Curtis Axel become a star and
bron Breaker and Curtis Axel are very different, but I
am not ruling out that Breaker might be more Curtis
Axel at the end of the day as a top
guy than Roman Raine Sea, I'm Punkin Brock Lesner. If
that's the case, it's gonna be only slightly below the

(20:05):
midpoint between Curtis Axel and Punk Klaser. I mean, he's
obviously not going to be that much of a flame out,
but he still could end up in that category. If
you have to split it into two sides, he could
be in what I mean by that as a guy
who got a big, serious push and it just there
was something there that people thought he had, but he

(20:25):
didn't have enough of it, or someone else took the
spot from him and he wasn't just so dominantly clearly
that guy. I'm more no that said, I'm more lean
towards I think he's gonna make it, and I think
there's a chance he is.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
A big star.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
I am less sold on him being a bigger star
than at his peak than Lesner and Punk and Rains.
Then I want to be like if I'm doo to
b there, I mean Hayman is endorsing him. He's a
future mister restumting all that. I still need to see
him stand in front of the microphone cut a main event,
Top Top Guy promo, have a match where you're like

(21:02):
top a pl when you're exhausted at the end of
a match, at the end of an event with a
lot of matches, breakers music wakes everybody up, and his
match feels so consequential that people are hanging on every move,
and that is hard to achieve in wrestling. This is
not about star rating. There's a whole group of people
who are you know, star rating merchants that just breathe.
That's how you define if somebody is a star or not.

(21:23):
And I trust me, I want high star ratings of
my matches, but that is not That is not a
prerequisite to being a mega successful star, reaching the fast
audience that Dotobe does. You need to hit a certain threshold,
but then you need that other factor. A lot of
people hit the threshold of really good wrestling and can
have those matches, but that doesn't feel important, doesn't have gravitas,

(21:43):
and bron I think has that, but I just don't
know to what degree yet. So I throw it to you.
Where are you on him and specifically what makes you
optimistic or pessimistic that he'll match the build Hyman is
getting him and clearly the path that is there for
him to travel down that they're gonna give them that.

Speaker 5 (21:59):
Up need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me Alan frel Over in the Progress
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Speaker 3 (23:03):
Seeing the paradise, I'm I'm I feel like I'm right
where you know. WWE says they are with him, Like
I I think he's a guy that right now, you know,
has shown to have all the pieces of what you'd
want in a big star. Like there's a presence there,

(23:24):
for sure, there's an intensity there. For sure, he you know,
isn't I wouldn't say he's polished on the microphone, but
I think that there's he's shown enough where you've seen
him do his work where you could be like, okay,
you know, if he had ten more minutes and he
had a few years of of of you know, of
practicing this and getting better, that he could deliver that

(23:44):
go home prom in the ring. I think he's gotten
a lot better from his days, his days in NXT,
and he's got the move set and he's got frankly,
you know, a WWE style move set where it's ye,
a couple of really really big moves and that get
big pops and and that's you know, that's really all
you need. It's kind of Roman Reigns esque in that regard.

(24:05):
So if he if I'm looking at the roster and
our developmental system and I'm like, well, you know, it's
it's wrestling, and we have to pick somebody to to
to go with and to groom. I mean, he's absolutely
somebody that would be at the very very top of
my list. Now you don't we don't know yet how
that is going to play out. And I think both

(24:27):
things can be true. You I think you can be
really high on bron Breaker as a prospect, well at
the same time recognizing he hasn't really done anything that
a top guy needs to do yet you got to
see him have the big matches, You got to see
him have big promos. You got to see him, you know,
be able to even even like in his case, like
be able to to sell and tell stories, like he's

(24:48):
got to be able to show you know that he
can be gotten to at at at some point, like
he can't just be the unstoppable force of energy. There's
there's just more to it than that. And I think
he just has a really high ceiling and he's not
anywhere near it yet. And I don't know if he'll
get there, but he's certainly somebody that I'd be throwing

(25:09):
some chips on if I was, if I was, you know, uh,
betting on a next star in w W because of
those because of those intangibles that I think he has.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
From a depth chart standpoint, not having seth rawlins. But
and I don't know when they're gonna do a draft,
I mean, if they ever again, or how they're.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Gonna handle that.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
But you you have a heel side right now where
you've got bron Breaker and Bronson Reed as sort of
de facto top heels, and then you have Gunther and
Logan Paul, and then you have kind of a different
categories like Dominick and Russev and Kofi, and then you
have even more of a drop off like you know,
Bravo Americana whatever he has, you know, like you know,

(25:49):
like that that that type. But from a heel depth standpoint,
they're they need Breaker and Read to be effective heels.
Gnther has a deal where he's not around every single week,
Logan Paul's not around every single week. Dom is getting
cheered more and more. Russev is not a He's not

(26:13):
who he was, you know, when he first was around
in terms of what his upside is, he kind of
seems like he's gonna be what he's gonna be, and
it you know, just second tier utility heel.

Speaker 4 (26:22):
He got Kobe Kingston to you know, doing what he's doing.
So Jay Uso.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Is you know, maybe going heel, obviously maybe going hell.
They might have a twist in there where it's Jimmy
or something else. How do you feel about that? For
a you know, this is a celebrated series on Netflix,
and their heel depth chart is inexperienced brown Breaker, former
mid Carter Bronson Reid not part timer but not full

(26:53):
time your round guy, Gunther, I mean, I'm maybe I'm
spinning these negatively at my framing, you know, trying to
highlight so the falls you know, Logan Paul, you know,
says he's full time but he never is. And then
Dominic who seems destined to be cheered, and Russa who's
defined as a second tier guy. That's not great, but
I always think I was feel that way. I so

(27:14):
often feel that way about the depth chart on brands.
It's like, it's amazing what they can do with only
four you know, like top Top heels and top top
baby faces. But it does start to feel a little
a little incestuous or repetitive when the same people are
fighting each other with a slightly different spin. And then
you start turning people too quickly, and then that wears
out how the fans identity with them, and then you
also just have too many tweet ers or people who

(27:36):
seem like they're on the verge of switching. And then
you also just have the matchups where it's the fans
picking who they like because they need fresh matchups, and
there's no fresh matchups that are he'll faced because they
don't have a depth chart with a split roster. So
that's what Paula vac has to juggle. And I you know,
Paula back if you listened to this, he'd be like,
thank you for understanding.

Speaker 4 (27:51):
That's what I'm dealing with.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
You know, like this is not you know that when
you're critical of X, Y and Z. Yes, I'm a
of the things you are a critical of. I agree
they're worthy of criticism or doubt or skepticism, but the
alternatives are worse. There aren't better alternatives. I'm open minded, Please,
I'm all yours let me know, So, how do you
feel about that depth chart? And you know, on on

(28:15):
the baby face side by the way, it's cmpunk currently
sort of jus so l A Knight, aj Styles, Penta
raymys Stereo, Seamus. I mean that's your Netflix raw Hero roster.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
Hit Boy. When you when you when you when you
kind of like look at it like that, like on paper,
you're like, oh my god, Like if you were going
to draft a roster for Netflix prior to the launch
of Netflix, like, I don't think you'd land on what
you just said how many times that you know, but
that that said, so, like I think on paper, on paper,

(28:53):
it doesn't look it really doesn't look great as you
just as you just outline. And I think if I'm
Paul of that, I'm I'm sticking with the roster as is,
like more I'd be more apt to do that than
to do some like wild heel turns just to just
to just to do them, just to kind of fix

(29:14):
the depth chart issue. And yeah, you you could fix
the depth chart issue that way in theory, but I
think the better strategy is the one that I think
he's going with as of last night, which is all right,
bron Breaker and Bronze and Reed like step up, like
you're like you're now elevated. You're elevated. You know, it

(29:34):
was Seth and now it's both of you guys and
Paul Hayman. So it's like the three of you are
going to try to, you know, take this top heel
spot that Seth had, And I I think it's you know,
an investment in, or not even an investment, but like
a test in, like, hey, how how can can we go?
Can we go with these guys? Can we think bron
Breaker is really good? Now we're gonna find out on

(29:56):
the heel side, like how how good he can be
or what he can be for us? And I think
that's better than than you know, rolling the dice on
a Jay us he'll turn. I mean, there's just I
know that he's got the stuff going on with Jimmy
and he tossed Jimmy out, and to me, that all
was there to kind of further the storyline with him

(30:18):
and Roman and Jimmy and like kind of reigniting some
of that that bloodline drama more so than it was well,
Jay's is this bad guy now? I don't think that
was the tone of of what happened at all, And
I think that's the right the right move, I mean
turning Jay you so, I mean he's he's still. I mean, yes,
he's a bit of a one note guy. He's not
the greatest babyface in the ring, but you know, it's

(30:41):
hard to find a babyface that over. You know, it's
just it just is and they have it, and I
just I would not be messing with that, you know,
any anytime soon. Same thing with Cody Rhoades, you know,
I mean I think, yes, would it be fun to
see him work as a heel, sure, but like you're
really not there yet, I mean they're no, you know,

(31:02):
he's still I think has a long way to go.
And I think the same thing with Jay. So I
I am sypathetic towards the fact that the depth chart
looks weak, but I think you know, you're doing the
right thing trying to lean into Sometimes it's just you know,
like on a on a sports team, like sometimes you
just need the the next guy to step up and deliver.

(31:25):
And I think that's what you know, Levic is looking
for here with with Brown Breaker especially, but you know,
with Bronson Reid and Paul Hayman at his side, and
and you.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Know he's hoping that there are people who are underutilized.
I mean, you know that's always that's always a case.
You hope there's a backup shortstop who can fill in
if your shortstop goes down. In the NBA, you hope
that there's a player who is a you know, a
shooting guard who can play defense and just as being
underutilized because somebody else is above him on the depth chart.
But when that guy goes down, it's an opportunity. That's

(31:54):
what they tell themselves. But you have to make sure
that you're you're not. It's not just about performance on
the field. Like in sports, you need the fans to
look at this person and go, hmm, I buy this
guy or I buy this woman as in the position
that they're now being thrust into. And so it's not
just about performance. You need the fans to buy in.

(32:15):
Wins and losses count in sports, crowd pops ratings, you know,
that's what that's what counts in professional wrestling. Obviously from
a core baseline standpoint, as you tell your stories, you
need a sports like environment. But the plug and play
aspect has advantages in weaknesses they don't have to be
better in the ring than the person they're replacing, but

(32:36):
they need to be the fans need to buy them
in that position. So yeah, so some people are going
to get tested. We're about to go to a commercial break.
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(32:59):
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treat yourself to a streamlined, add and plug free listening
experience with a VIP or Patreon membership. On the NXT

(33:19):
side of things, what's your assessment of where WWE is
in terms of having a bench speaking of a bench
players being needed.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
You know, I I think that they've got uh On
the women's division, I think they have some real some
real players. Like I think they've got some real talent
and some real depth down there of of women that
can come up and make an impact right away. Blake Monroe,
I think soul Ruka has really turned a corner in

(33:49):
terms of kind of finding her character. Even somebody like
you know, Zaria is going to get opportunities because of
her look and her size and her style and in the ring,
and then like you've got like a level down from
that with like you know, the j. C. Janes of
the world. Like she's the NXT champion right now, but
you know, she hasn't been like a focal point of
the of the show for for very long. But she's

(34:11):
been there a long time and she's you know, developed,
and so she's going to get an opportunity. So I
think I think the women's division is set up really well.
Not to mention you have Jordan Grace there too. There's
just I think there's kind of an embarrassment of riches
on the on the women's side of things, and the
men's side gets a little dice here. I mean, obviously
Oba Feme and Trick Williams, I think are like two

(34:31):
guys who are gonna get called up to the main
roster and and you know, at least have some buzz
behind them when they when they do, but after that,
and you know, I don't know, it's tough to put
him in this category. But when you look at like
Ricky Saints and Ethan Page and like that, that crop
and that level, even like Javon Evans, which I think
there's a little bit of a higher upside because he's

(34:52):
just so exciting in the ring. I think those guys
are just if they if they get to like a
main event level, un raw or SmackDown, like, that's great
and I'll be able to say, like, wow, that's you know,
there were pe elements of that, but I just wasn't
I didn't think they would quite they'd quite get there,
but I wouldn't be surprised if they if they did,

(35:13):
but I just don't necessarily think that they will. And
that and when you kind of finished rounding out that analysis,
you're really talking about five guys, two of which could
potentially be like top tier players for you, and that
you know, that's not a great that's not a great
position to be. I think you need to have more

(35:34):
in the pipeline than that.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
All the money, all the time in developmental evolve scouting. Uh,
what's the term for paying college athletes before and I
always think an n I T and I know that
wasn't it? And I oh, yeah, next in line? And
and then NXT this robust, you know company, but or
this robust third brand yet the need to turning NXT

(36:01):
into a full fledged third brand revenue generator. And I
am on record, however many years ago, when you know,
Paula Beck was floating the idea of oh, we're the
third brand and people are like, no, you're development. I'll
stop talking, like there's three brands, and I was like,
it shouldn't be a third brand. Yes, there's revenue to
be made turning it into that. And I get Paula
Vec when I'm still around wanting this thing he was

(36:22):
proud of to become a revenue generator and get its
own TV deal and its own PLS and guess what
it has both. But what that does is it changes
how you develop talent because they're now on the radar,
they're being seen at this level, and so you go, well,
if they're not ready yet, and we want to draw
ratings and we want to know earn revenue from the
eyeballs who watch us and the tickets we sell, and

(36:44):
of course back then it was very validating for Levec
to be successful because that could show he was ready
for himself to be next in line after Vince. You stop,
the priority is not developing talent to give me people
chance to kind of trip up and make mistakes in
front of a small audience. With the region TV show
or a network show that's one hour and you kind
of have dark matches, or you're hiding people. Now it's

(37:05):
two hours a week on cable pls, we need to
sell tickets. It changes it and it's no longer developmental.
I mean, it's hired the people who aren't good and
then they don't get a chance to get better. The
Minnesota Vikings are dealing with that, you know, JJ McCarthy.
It's like, but we have Justin Jefferson and it's a
win now defense that they've they've built. Do we want
to take a chance on JJ McCarthy or we just

(37:27):
don't know yet. But it's not fair to waste a
whole year of Justin Jefferson's career on a quarterback who
might be in over his head. That's the NXT attitude
towards I think some wrestlers, and so that's not the
only contributor. But it was always a warning sign to
me when NXT became more about profit and polymck's reputation

(37:47):
as a booker and promoter than it was let's a
stay off the raidar and developed talent. And I think
they're paying a little bit of a price for that.
They should have more ready to go than that list
you just gave Zach.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
For no question. I mean, there's just no question about it.
I mean, I'm looking at the roster like right now,
as of as of today, and because I was like,
surely I forgot somebody, and I really didn't, like, you know,
I mean the next level down, you know, after like
the rinky Saints of the world, you've got like Miles Bourne,
who had a who's kind of like a flash in

(38:19):
the pan guy. And I mean, how high are you
on Joe Hendry if he comes over right and then
it's just it falls off cliff after that.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
I mean, I mean, Ethan Page is fine, but he's
he's he's not going to be an answer. He's going
to be a patch that exactly like im.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I think he's great being he's a great patch,
but he's not you don't expect him to be like
a Kevin Owen's level guy who can just lean out
for ten years.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
Right, right for sure. And I just look at this
the again, the male roster especially, and I'm like, man,
they really they're going to need some guys to really
kind of reach a new level on the main roster
if they're gonna get anything out of these guys. And
you know, look, I mean obviously any things can change, right.
I mean there's you know, like Ethan Page was not

(39:06):
even used at all in in a W and here
he is. He's a regular feature of NXT and probably
going to be you know, called the main roster sometimes soon.
I mean there's always those curve balls that will come.
But to me, you know, you'd want to look at
this roster and go, oh man, look at all these
big matches for you know, for Cody Rose to have,

(39:26):
look at these big matches for Seampunk to have with
these young, up and coming guys, and it's really just
it is just like one or two folks at this
point that you that you that you look at women's
division is stocked a little more.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yes, yes, I mean with the women's division. Just again,
looking at raw the Netflix women's roster, Rhea Ripley on
top el Sky right there, Stephanie Paker getting a push,
then Libra Valcarria. They're certainly putting time and effort into her.
Nikki Bella in a separate category. I don't know how
long she's going to be friends with Lyra, but seeds
were plannet there. I don't know, Maxie Duprie. You can

(40:01):
see why they're giving a little extra effort to her
or going to the Sacramento. We'll see if that holds up.
A j Lee can be in and out of that.
On the heel side, Oscar, you know, clear lead heel,
Kyrie saying aligned with her but sort of a little sympathetic.
They're not much after that though, you know Rosanna President
were Keller and a tag team, but they also are
utility singles wrestlers. You got Charlotte and Live kind of,

(40:22):
you know, being on both brands as take Champs. There's
some depth there, but not a ton you know, I'm
trying to think of I'm missing a heel. I think
it is just Oscar and Kyrie and Perez and Rodriguez
right now on hon Ra who are interacting with everybody,
and then you Bianca players on the sidelines. But I

(40:43):
think she's overrun SmackDown.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, I think
there's just some you know, when you when you look
at the women's roster, I think there's just more to
me anyway, And maybe it's just a personal preference, Like
I think there's just more potential, like fresh matchups amongst
who I think are gonna be the top stars, like

(41:06):
Stephanie vick Kuerk And she has to have matches now
with Roxane Perez. Of course that's gonna was gonna go on.
Bria Ripley's there, Bionca bel Air is there, Becky Lynch
is like, there's just so many women for for like
a new top star like Stephanie va kure two to
work with, the same thing with Roxane Perez. You can
say the same thing. I think Roxane Perez ultimately, I

(41:26):
mean to me, I look at her role long term
and I'm like, man, she's she's a heel now, yes,
but I think the money in her is a babyface
run down down the road. And then once you pull
the trigger on that, then again you've got you know,
you've got Ria to work with, You've got Bianca to
work with potentially you've got uh you know, EO and

(41:46):
Osca and all those all those fresh singles matches. So
I just think it's a little bit of a fresher,
fresher landscape, even though the names are kind of repetitive.
But to your point about like the similar thing about
brown Breaker, Like we think Stephanie her is going to
be uh, you know, a big star. We don't don't
know yet. I mean, she's just getting that big push
right now. Everything like signs point to this is gonna

(42:10):
be great and she's gonna work just fine, but we
still don't we still know that yet. We don't know
that about Roxane Perez, big prospect, but that's all we
know at this point in time. So you know, in
a year from now, if we have this conversation, you know,
it may it may look a lot different.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
Yeah, well, let's uh let's shift over to the SmackDown
side of things. We've got another match with Cody and Drew.
What do you think of that being a matchup and
how they came about?

Speaker 3 (42:38):
So, I like, you know, I like the I like
the Cody Drew matchup. I mean I think it's a
that's a that's a match that you want to do again.
I think that's a you know, a kind of a
program that paula Vec had in his back pocket that
it seemed to me that he felt like, all right,
well and anytime I need this, I can. I can
pull out Drew McIntire versus codyro and get a couple

(43:01):
of months out of it and a couple of pay
per views out of it and a lot of TV
out of it. And I think that's where we're at
right now. I just kind of think, like how they
got to the match, I don't know, I guess like
weak is the word that I would that I would
throw out there. I like the match a lot, and
I think both guys can deliver. I I just think
there was some more heat to be had for it

(43:21):
for both Drew and and Cody. I think you could
just there there's their personalities and their their stories and
their history together. Like I think that there could have
been just a whole another level of two of just
aggression and intensity too when it came time to to
get you know, to get to this match. And so

(43:42):
it's not it's not bad. I wouldn't give it a
thumbs down. I just think that there's there was like
upside left on the table that they didn't that they
haven't gotten to yet. And look they there's there's TV left,
so they can still they can still take it there.
But initially I was like, okay, like it's a good
match to do, and I think it's a it's a
you know, it's a good world title match for Cody Andrew,

(44:03):
but but man, you left some he left some money
on the table, I think.

Speaker 6 (44:10):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host him the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis for
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(44:32):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (44:42):
So I want to explore both of these guys separately
for a second, starting with Drew. Why isn't Drew? I don't,
and I don't think the perception is he is the
top top heel candidate.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
According to Paula Beck, I feel like they.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
Know they need him, they want him, but they don't
fully believe in him. And he's just almost kind of
taken for granted as when we need him, we'll plug
him in.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Like he's just like.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
A notch below Randy Orton. You know, A's a guy
who can be a face or a heel. He might
be world champion, but we're never fully thinking, Okay, now
we're settled. We're always kind of looking for that next person.
As much as the legend as Randy was, he just
didn't turn out to be that you know, transformative legacy,
top top world title headline act the way that Roman

(45:36):
Reigns had that run, John Cena had the run, Bred
Hard had the run, you know in a way obviously
ho Coke and all the you know those types of names.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
What do you think of Drew.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
So Drew? I think true is like it's funny like
if you were going to like say, hey, would you
want a career like Drew McIntyre has right now, I
think you tell yourself like, well, absolutely I would.

Speaker 7 (46:00):
TV.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
I'm a top ish heel, I can work in world
title matches. And I think you're right to analyze him insane,
that he's just not really like the guy either as
a heel or or a baby face. I think he's right,
He's right there. What I think holds him back is
and this is this is like a this is a

(46:23):
you know, not necessarily even anything he can control. But
I think that he doesn't have a personality that goes
along like with his like he doesn't have a superstar
personality that goes along with like the look that he has,
Like I think he's got this just incredible look, and
I think he's got, you know, a presence about him.

(46:45):
But I think he's he's more of a kind of
like straightforward heel or baby face. And I think when
he's a heel, he's very similar to how he is
as a baby face. And I think that there's not
a lot of there's there's not a lot of range there.
There's really only one thing he can he can do.
He can kick your ass as a heel or a

(47:06):
baby face, and that's really that's really it. And I
think as a babyface, it's hard for him to get
sympathy because the dude looks the way that he does
and he's so massive and he's so huge, and you know,
I think it's really hard for him to kind of
be sympathetic as a babyface in that in that regard,
and then as a heel. You know, I think you

(47:27):
could get a lot out of Drew McIntyre if he
won a lot, But you know, you're living and you're
working at a time where Cody Rhodes is the top guy.
He's the top star he should be, and so there's
just not space right now on SmackDown for this like
dominant heel character, which means if Drew McIntyre is gonna

(47:49):
work in the main events, he's gonna have to lose.
He's gonna have to take losses. And I think that
that hurts him again because of the way he looks,
because of how he carries himself. So it's it's a
really interesting dynamic with him where he's got this skill
set that puts him always up at the upper tier
of your of your company, but that same skill set

(48:12):
I think holds him back from taking that next level,
and the circumstances around him do too. Again, Cody Rose,
you know, who knows what the company would look like
right now if Cody you know, didn't come back and
didn't have the popularity that he had. You know, Drew,
maybe he is a guy that's in the picture and
if that is different, But the fact of the matter

(48:33):
is Cody's the guy and everything serves him being the
guy for the most part. John Ceno side, I'm sure
we'll get into that a little bit, but Drew is
just a casualty of those of those circumstances.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
I think, yeah, no, I don't think that's very very astute.
I am nodding along with with your assessment of him,
and I do think he has a main event look,
but a personality that seems like a guy who's gonna
hang out with Seamus, have some beers, talk some football, yep,
and but talk about his heritage, but there's not beyond that,

(49:14):
like yeah, there there is just that that little bit
of an X factor and he he's driven, he has
good matches, but there's like nothing other than that look
where he's.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
He.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
And it's so weird because it's like the slightest bit
under what it would take for Paul Avec and the
people in his fear of influence to go. We got
to figure out how to get this guy in top
and leave him there like they clearly think more of
Seth than Drew. Yeah, ye, and Seth is flawed, But
Seth they think has bomb bast and jump off the

(49:48):
screen energy, and Drew is more just you're not quite badass,
Somemojo brock Lesner. He's not quite gravitas and cool like Roman. Yeah,
there's just but it's it's so slight, and it's kind
of frustrate Drew, you know, because he wants you know,
clearly he's he is a professional, and he shows up

(50:09):
and he's just like doing what he needs to do
in a very professional way consistently. Yet whatever he doesn't have,
it's enough to disqualify him, not from getting a push,
but from he's always they're always looking over the shoulder
the next person who might they might who might cross

(50:29):
the line into being better than Drew in those three
four or five key categories that Drew's just not quite
there yet to be that top top guy in their eyes.
I'm not even saying they're right, because I think once
he's in that position, he can step up and be
that very well. We saw that with him as as
Drew Galloway in Impact. You know when he is front center.
We sat during COVID as Drew McIntyre. When he's front

(50:51):
center and has confidence and has the storylines around him,
I do think he delivers and I think he is
a definite option that But but the problem is is
he is he is the guy that you put in
there to be a credible opponent who loses, and he's
now adapted as gimmick to that, which is I'm going
to get my heel heat by rationalizing what happened as
being a victim of unfairness.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
So yeah, well, and I think too it. I mean,
there's no way we'll ever know this, but like I
you know, I think some of the best, most genuine
kind of Drew back entire work was was done during
the COVID time, except that there was just nobody there,
Like you don't you don't know how that would have
played out. And you know, if he got the win

(51:35):
in front of eighty thousand people that that year at
WrestleMania over brock Plesner and the run after that, like
you know, I mean a lot of and it's just
just like anything, I mean, you need a little bit
of like timing to go your way, and timing just
did not go Drew's way when it comes to being
the centerpiece act for w W IS Champion. It's just

(51:55):
every every like bad card that you yes could get
if you're Drew like you got and uh, you know
it's it sucks, but you know it happens. And at
the same time, at the same time, I don't want
to like, I think he's just a really valuable part
of WWE right now too. Like he's not the guy,
he's not the top guy, yep, but I think he's

(52:17):
He's somebody that they need and somebody that I think
Paul wants to to keep around, like Kevin Owens, you know,
in that regard, Like I think Kevin Owens is gonna
be the face of your company, But boy is he valuable.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
When Kale comes back, kind of like with Seth Face
or heel and how high up the card.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
I think I think Babyface, Yeah, I mean, I think
I think he's gonna like Seth you know, well, and
it kind of depends a little bit on how on
how how long he's out. But with with with Owens,
it's a neck injury, so you know it's gonna be
a bit And I just people like even when Seth
even when Kevin Owens is a heel. I think deep
down people are like, this guy's cool, we like this guy.

(52:58):
He's like, he's our guy. So I think trying to
make him a heal when he comes back would be
would be would be silly. And so maybe that means,
you know, you move him to Raw and he gets
a fresh look over there. You know. I don't know
you want to put that with with Cody Rhoades at
this point, because cos Cody is is the guy, but
I think you definitely got to bring him back at

(53:20):
a you know, at a high ish level, like upper
mid card, flirting with that main event, you know, kind
of where he is now.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wade Kellor Podcast at
pw torch dot com. Weadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com.
If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
you want us to address on our main podcast during

(53:50):
our mailbank segments, that same email applies Wade Keller Podcast
at pw torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let
us know what you think of what we're saying, and
let us know what you want us to talk about
and ask us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at PW
torch dot com. Kevin Owens at forty one years old.
When you look at the age of wrestlers who work

(54:13):
to the mid late forties even early fifties, you know,
Adam Copeland, aj Styles, John Cena right now, even Cempunk
you know in that category of mid forties and above,
like I would not. I mean again, this depends so
much on Kevin Owens' neck and what's best for him
in the long run. But he's five years younger than

(54:36):
see I'm Punk, and only five years older than Nathan Page.
So there is room for Kevin Owens to be for
them to reinvest in him as the depth chart thins
out for kind of legacy star veterans. And you can
use Kevin Owens to help get the next crop over,
but you need to protect him in the process to
get there. And boy, could they use him right now?

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Yeah, yeah they really could. And I think, yeah, you're right,
like just what you know? Then he can go as
I think as high as w W would want him
to go. Is he healthy enough? That's I think that's
going to be the question, you know, coming.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Back Yeah on speaking of Cody wroat, So he's got
h Drew, but what what's after that? Or is it
too early to tell because at some point they are
going to move some wrestlers around. Well, I mean we
can look at the both rosters and all three including NXT,
but currently for SmackDown on USA Network, you've got Drew McIntyre,

(55:35):
Alistair Black Solo so Cola. The MI is like, where
is your depth chart from a heel standpoint for Cody
as a babyface or when you look at that depth chart,
do you go maybe we don't want to, but maybe
we have to look at turning Cody heel.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
But then do they have enough?

Speaker 1 (56:00):
And some people are thinking, yeah, that's imminent or it
should happen, and other's like, no, that's crazy. They're not
hinting at that. There's gonna be more time that goes
by before that. But like if Cody goes here, well
then you got Rowan Rains as a face. Semi Zain
presumably so is a face. Damian Priest has a face
dragging off where they gave a big win to which
we can talk about h Randy Orton, who's also you know,

(56:20):
getting up there and slowing down. I mean, Jacob pot
Two's out injured, Kevin Owens is out injured. If he's
a babyface, Jimmy Uso is fine. He's a utility guy.
He's not a top top guy. Carmelo Hayes kind of
in the ilia dragging off realm of yeah, you can
try to get him hot, but he's not proven, but
you can give him a big win and give him

(56:41):
a little bit of push. I don't know where Shinsky
is gonna end up again. He's more of a utility guy.
He'll or face so you know, I don't I mean
again if you're Paula Back or if you're if you're
Paula Back looking for some sympathy for like, look what
I gotta work with. Yeah, but I mean at some
point you've got to figure out whoever the next star
is going to be and add a little bit more
depth to that because I don't think the lay of
the land on SmackDown essings are currently configured pre draft

(57:04):
or roster shake up. I don't think there's great depth
for Cody on either side. Now that said, Cody does
not need to feud with more than really three people
per year. I mean that Woud's really good at stretching
stuff out, so you can you know, So what what
options do you look at for Cody? I'll just throw
it to you. Beyond the Drew kind of fill in rematch,

(57:24):
what comes next for him in twenty twenty six?

Speaker 4 (57:26):
Who who do you like? I mean, Alistair Black is
scary because of their their.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
History in a w but you know, and you can
look at smack Down, but you can also stray over
to raw and go. You know, how long do you
want to keep him apart from bron Breaker or Goonther
or Logan Paul. I'm trying to think of Yeah, I
mean BRUCEV. I don't think they're gonna warm up to
that level. But he can't roll it out.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
They can't roll it out. But yeah, I don't know
that I would be pulling the trigger. I mean, I
think on the SmackDown side, there seems to me that
there's like one few left that they still can do
that they can get a lot out of. I don't know,
I don't know that you can get away with this
Unlike like, I don't think this is a WrestleMania main event,
but Randy Orton against Cody Roads seems to be something

(58:13):
that they've been kind of flirting with for for a while,
just haven't pulled the trigger on yet for for whatever reason.
But I mean, I think that is something that you
can go to, especially kind of in like a to me,
it's it seems like a relatively perfect kind of between
the New Year and WrestleMania type feud where you can

(58:35):
get a maybe you get a Saturay n as a
main event out of it, and then then another ple
e out of it, and now all of a sudden, Okay,
you're at you're at the build to WrestleMania, and you
do whatever you're gonna do with Cody. But I think
that you can get something out of and I think
they're they're planning the seeds for that after whatever happens
here with with Drew McIntyre. The other thing that I
think that they can do, and they've they've teased this

(58:56):
a little bit too, and this would not necessarily have
to come with a Cody Roads heel TT because I'm
pretty I'm pretty anti Cody Roads heelter at this point,
like you gotta well, not because he can't do it,
not because it wouldn't work, just you spent so long,
like and you worked hard, and he's he's a he's

(59:16):
a top level babyface, Like just just let him be
there for a while.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
Those are hard to find.

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Yeah, hard, and you got a good one, so you know,
keep it there. But I I think you can do
you know, you can bring gun throw over and you
can have that that match. I think that's a really
good program to me. That's that is like a potential
WrestleMania deal if if you want it. Bron Breaker obviously
is going to be somebody that Cody Roads could work
with if he stays hell down down the road. But

(59:44):
another feud is is with with CM Punk. I think
that's a compelling, you know, babyface versus Babyface type matchup
that we'll have some energy and some edge and some
some drama to it. I mean we saw in their
minute interactions that they've had during promos like where they
can take things, and I think that's that's pretty compelling. Like,

(01:00:08):
you know, if you get a scenario where Punk's a
roll rumble winner or something something to that end. I
think that could. I think that could ultimately ultimately work.
But I mean if you if you take if you
look at that and you go, okay, Gunther Randy Punk
and then like you'll have your audit ons it ends
you know, little mini things with maybe you know, maybe
it is Logan Paul or some of the effect. I

(01:00:30):
mean that that is like a year's worth of stuff
like for him. And by that time, boy, you hope
that you know, Bronson Reid is is where he needs
to be and Brown Breaker is where he needs to be,
and now you have another crop. So I just think
it's still it's hard to see sometimes. I think it's
still ripe for Cody as Babyface.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Yeah, and and you know, having all this money coming
in for all these PL's, all these as of TV,
you know, two and f ours a raw to or
a SmackDown. Thankfully it's not three for either of those
right now, plus tours of NXT but you got Science
Made Event, nxtpl e s, the major do wpls, the
major major stadium shows they're serving. They're trying to feed

(01:01:14):
a lot of matchups to these shows to keep them
relevant and serve the people paying the money and create
at least the veneer of prestigious lineups. But it is
thinning out everything. It's like, I mean, even the AW example,
like one you know once collision. It was even a
problem pre collision. But like AW, fans who were buying
tickets to an event months ahead of time didn't know
which stars they were going to see because they weren't

(01:01:36):
you know, they weren't guaranteeing Kenny Omego's gonna be there
every week and you could see at least a dark
match with them. Alistair Black you can almost never see him.
Miro Resip you'd almost never see him wrestle. Whoever, your
favorites were the young bucks more like the Knots and
off week where they're not going to wrestle. So people
were buying tickets for sort of the brand, the experience,
the vibe and seeing some but not all, of the
top stars. But that hurts you on repeat visits. Could

(01:01:57):
pople like, well, I don't know, I want an idea,
these are my two favorite wrestlers. I don't want to
pay money again to see if they're not going to
be there. With w W, it's kind of a there's
some similarities and differences, which is, do I want to
go to raw if I'm not going to see that,
if I'm very likely not going to see Cody or
Roman or Randy or.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Trying to think who on the female side, Tiffany Stratton
is what's that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
I was gonna say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
So they are. So they're broken up into three brands,
but mostly two in ways that matter the most.

Speaker 4 (01:02:36):
But two and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
And then they have all these events and then the
events start thinning out in terms of man there were
like only four big stars on this whole pl e
and then so it's not I mean, I agreed to
sort of a such a loaded term, but it's like
take opportunity of such a buzzword, but like the opportunity
to get these corporations, these streaming partners and broadcast partners

(01:02:59):
to hey you so much for content is so tempting,
but it comes with a price, and that is you
end up doing rematches in order for matches to say fresh,
You're doing more face versus face matchups where fans are
kind of ambivalent or torn or conflicted. And I don't
think pro wrestling does well, at least not the way
WNAW have chosen to promote wrestling. I don't think it

(01:03:21):
does well when fans are conflicted and torn, and I
think it leads to ambivalence and you're like, I don't
want to see these two people beat each other up.
I won't be happy with either ending as much as
I would be with a heel beating a face.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
And so.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
That's a product in part of booking philosophy. But I
think even more so, just the options that are there
and the number of events they have to fill, and I
think that would be as add up it has been.
Is at a point where like they've took on a
little more than they can handle. It's like, you know,
if you're taking college classes and you take on too
many hard courses and too many extracurricular activities. It all

(01:03:58):
looks good and fun, but then you just get burned
out out and everything. Your grades drop, you're missing practice,
you're missing games, you're missing you know, extracurricular stuff. You're
letting people down. Would be just if they had I mean,
this is aw and dew B would be super strong
companies product wise. If they had one two hour show
a week and one monthly pl I mean, that would

(01:04:22):
be manageable. It's asking a lot, and it is how
most of most wrestling successful ut in companies had a
one hour show and kind of a monthly event that
would rotate around, you know, travel around to their.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
On their circuit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
On a national scale, it was more often than not
monthly pay per view format. And then that got kind
of ruined with Thunder and Night workspanding to three hours.
And I think ww would be around today if they
had not done those two things. I mean, I think
that watered down the booking and and all kay and
even Eric Bishop has you know, told me that and
said that, yeah, I mean it was he he had reservations,
but the money was there. The network wanted wanted it.

(01:04:57):
You know, it was written about in the Nitro book
by Guy Evans, you know, the corporate side of things
who just did not understand wrestling. They just thought, hey,
we can make this much money. Let's have twice so
many hours and we'll make twice a much money.

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
And there'll be no consequences.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
And they were just completely in over their head.

Speaker 8 (01:05:16):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the seven Star podcast the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling, we'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events.

Speaker 9 (01:05:26):
Dictate and I'm Chris Lansdowe join us as we covered
the ever changing landscape of New Japan as they navigate
an era with no lack of talent but a real
need to create some new styles. You can stream the
new seven Stop podcast now from Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So all that is sort of the context of why
it is between NXT not delivering for the reasons we
talked about injuries being a problem because the ring style
and stupid chances the rest of are taking and then
just dumb luck and you know the fact that injuries
are going to happen a combination of all that, but
it's exacerbated by needless coast to coast leaps, you know,

(01:06:13):
so and you know, chasing the star rating is opposed
to try to stay healthy. I think I think that
is in a tough spot, you know, I mean a
tougher spot than they really need to be. I don't
think they're in a terrible spot, but it's a little
precarious and and they have to be really sharp, you know,
And that's where you you've got to do the right thing.

(01:06:35):
With Alistair Black, you have to hope. Ilia Draganov catches on,
you have to bang on bron Breaker being as good
as they're telling us he's going to be. You have
to make sure you're getting what you can out of Penta.
I don't know, it's not really a question but just
sort of a response kind of the big picture discussion
we've had for for well.

Speaker 3 (01:06:52):
I mean, I think it's on point, and I you know,
we kind of talked about on the last flagship that
we did, but like, I don't I don't get the
sense that, uh, you know, t KO group is like
a We've we've sweezed this rag enough and got enough
water out of it, Like let's just be done. Like,
you know, I think it's it's only going to be
more important for WWE to create new stars and more stars,

(01:07:18):
because I don't think t ko's is slowing down. And
I think they're more like those w CW executives who
just don't really understand wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
But it's like and they we're TBS aol Time Warner executives.
It don't show executives kind of new and they're like, right,
you know, yeah, just for clarity sake, throw that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
Yeah. But like I think that they're they follow on
that more in that category, whereas like their interest is
not putting on like the best wrestling product their main interest.
And that's a if that's a byproduct of running the
good business and making a lot of money. Great, but
that can and will take a back seat to making
a lot of a lot of money. And so you know,

(01:07:57):
you gotta you you have to deliver on the their
end if you're if you're Paula Vac and you know
it's ah, they are spread thin. I mean there's no
question about it. I mean, look, you've got you know,
you've got this big Saturday Night's main event thing coming
up a couple of weeks soon after that. It's it's
war Games of all things. Like so you know, it's
it's it. They come in like fast and furious, and

(01:08:19):
so I I I agree with you that it's you know,
the like figuring out these depth starts is important. But
to your point, like sometimes like you just have to
you just have to get get the evaluation right. And
I think that's where Paula Vac is right now. He
needs to hit on Stephane the Cure and Brown Breaker

(01:08:41):
and Bronson Reid and you know, keep going with Cody
like that, he's got to he's got hit home runs
on that for this, for this to stay on the track.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
And and you you're talking about t K executives, and
we compare him to all time water, you know, being
counter number cruncher, maximize everything without you know, by serving
stockholders in profit quarterly profits more than understanding what you're
doing to sacrifice long term health. And eventually fans going,
wait a second, you know you're you're exploiting me. And

(01:09:15):
I think the length of ples with a number of matches,
with the number of commercial breaks during them, feels like
kind of you know, gouging not it feels disrespectful of
people's time. But the Connor argument is, well, you're not
paying fifty to sixty bucks, right, you know, you're getting

(01:09:37):
it with the Peacock package. You're getting it with you know,
the ESPN subscription, with all these other things. So do
what you want to do anyway and stare at your
phone during these breaks. But or watch on demand and
start laid and fast forward. I mean, there are options.
But for the person who's excited to watch it live
be engaging on social media stuff that's happening the ratio
of wrestling to time spent start to finish these events

(01:09:58):
is with not exciting content in between, like a fun
talking segment or a video, but commercials and in house
you know, plugs. There's there is a tipping point where
people and you hear from people anecdotally it's like this
is just getting to be a slog so you know,
and then we owe pay per view is a dead
a dead thing. I mean, AW definitely benefits from the

(01:10:21):
pay per view experience, people going, you know what, it's
worth my fifty bucks to do this?

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
You know, give a take with HBO Max to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
Experience four and a half hours of just jam packed wrestling. Now,
I think they'd reach a larger audience if they guarantee
their events would only be three and a half hours,
not four and a half, and they cut back the
length of matches and cut one or two out, I
think you would have actually a wider audience that would
be into it, and you wouldn't turn away anyone who
right now is happily watching four and a half. I
don't think anybody would go I'm no longer sporting aw's

(01:10:48):
only got three and a half hours. But I think
there are people like, I do not want to stay
up this late for a main event, and I get
burned out on this. So that's a sidebar mini editorial.
But aw almost gives you too much of a good thing.
It's just like, Okay, I got it. I need to
move on with my life.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
Or get to bed.

Speaker 3 (01:11:03):
But is a middle ground there, Yes, that is between
the two of those things, and it would be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Nice I start it, okay, with the time we have
left in hitting some other topics, I do want to
talk about John John Cena his final match at Science
Made Event. Jason paul Over at Professing dot Net ran
a pole saying do you believe John Cena will stay retired?
First of all, because he had said on social media,
despite any speculation or rumors, on July sixth, twenty twenty four,

(01:11:31):
I announced I would retire from dobay in ring participation,
I love the terminology. So you're never cutting a promo
in the ring again. I mean, why not just say wrestling?

Speaker 4 (01:11:40):
Why why?

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
His aversion to saying I will never wrestle another match
is so weird in ring participation anyway. I still remember
the first time I heard in ring competitive and in
ring Oh what apparently I don't because I forgot what
they said. I'm in ring performer, and I'm like, are
you not perform when you're cutting a promo, don't you

(01:12:02):
just mean wrestling? Like, can't you just say wrestling? Like
you know, Superman doesn't deny he flies in movies just
because he's not really flying. He doesn't come up with
some euphemism for flying. In that world, he's flying, And
in Dodebe's world, you're wrestling Johnsen to just say it,
all right, I am far from perfect, but strive to
be a person whose word has value. December thirteenth, twenty
twenty five will be my final match. I'm beyond grateful

(01:12:25):
for every moment Dadeby has given me. So in the
ball results, more people think he really is going to
stay retired fifty nine percent compared to forty one percent
who think you'll have.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
At least one comeback match. So two things. First, do
you believe that this will be his last match? I
kind of do?

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
I do too? Yeah, I do too. I mean, like
everything points to that, and I think that the other
element that I'd be taking into account if I'm John
Cena is like boy. The retirement tour started out messy,
really messy, and I think for the most part, even
though there was damage done along the way across the

(01:13:08):
company and to other stars, no question about it, I
think it got to a pretty good place right now.
Like you've he's had a couple of good matches, he's
had a couple of nostalgia matches, he's had had a
couple like surprising, you know, good and ring showdowns with
unexpected opponents like Sammy Zay. I think, and you got

(01:13:31):
an audience that wants it, really wants to see him
and really wants to send him off. And so if
I'm John Cena, like I'm going, boy, you know, we
mess with this at the beginning and it didn't work,
I'm not messing with it now that I got it
figured out finally at the end, and I'm we're going
with this. We're going with this last match December thirteen,

(01:13:52):
that's it. And I think it seems to me that,
you know, unless John Cena falls on tough times financially,
I think I think he's done.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
What could John Cena do to fall on tough times
other than start hanging out with Nick Jackson?

Speaker 3 (01:14:07):
Well, you know, never said ever.

Speaker 1 (01:14:10):
Yeah, yeah, And John Cena is only forty eight. And
I say that because I mean Chris Jericho was AW
World champion when he was like forty forty nine fifty
because he well yeah, because he's he's Jericho. Is he
just turning? He just I think he just turned. He's
about to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
Turn fifty five or he already did, so.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Let me let me look that up. Yeah, yeah, he's
about to turn fifty five in a few weeks. So yeah,
he was about but forty nine when he was AW champion,
so like, and he's been a competitor, you know, in
a prominent way up until last couple of years where
it really faded. So the idea that scenea takes three
years off and then says, okay, I said one final time,

(01:14:54):
that was my final match, and you bought tickets and
merch based on my Now, why sorry people, if you
thought you were gonna if you thought I was gonna
be a man of my word, like I said, I
strive to be, But I am now striving to get
one more payday or I owe it to my fans,
or de deb needs me, or I never thought I'd
see a heel so vile and vicious that I needed

(01:15:15):
to get out of retirement to do this or that.
I mean, of course it can happen. And he is
is at forty eight, he's not young anymore, but he
is young enough. Or you can imagine in four years
he said, fifty three people have done this. That said
he's looked like he's slowed down quite a bit. Well,
you know what that feels like a dated statement. Now
his whole career, he seems kind of Yeah, that was okay,

(01:15:38):
and then whoa, he's got that in him, and that's
kind of what we had this year.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller for
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at puletorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:16:11):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews.
I cover those live at pw torch dot com with
a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course
you can find other TV reports from other contributors to
pw torch such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling, and more.
Check it out pw torch dot com your first stop

(01:16:33):
for TV and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 3 (01:16:45):
I mean it is and of course, like if you
were to come back, if he comes back in five
years or three years or whatever, I don't think anybody
would be like, oh my god, like I'm so surprised
that that happened. I don't think you could. You just
can't say that about anybody in pro wrestling really. But
I think at John Cena, you know, he you know,
he was away for a long time before this retirement run.

(01:17:06):
You know, he didn't have It's not like he was
like a full time guy right up until twenty twenty five.
I mean he was, he was off for a while
and it would come back here and there, I suppose,
but he didn't have this kind of run in for
a long time. So yeah, I think this is I
think this is a you know, uh, it's gonna be
a good send off for him in the end. I

(01:17:27):
think they landed that plane, even though man it was
a rocky ride.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
And so who is he landing the plane against.

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
Good Thor is the only choice. I think that makes
the most sense for that that I think you can
get the most out of Or. And I wouldn't have
said this. I would not have said this a week ago,
But I think brown Breaker makes sense now too two
to do that because he's a heel and because you

(01:17:56):
pulled the trigger on that earlier than you wanted, because
Set's injury, you have him in that that spot. And
so if you really want to try to elevate him,
you know, giving it, giving John Cena that his his
last match and having him retired John Cena, I think
it's pretty cool. But I ultimately I think I think
it's gonna be gun there. I think it's gonna be
got there. I think that's you know, that's a legacy

(01:18:19):
that John Cena can can can leave behind. I think
he's a suitable guy to lose. Two. If you're John Cena,
Like if I'm gonna take a loss here, like who can?
I who? Who can? Like you know, take the ball
from a business sense and and do some damage. Well,
I mean, look, if you give Gunther that win. He

(01:18:39):
it sets up matches with Cody Rohase, it sets up
matches with Brock Lesner, it sets up matches with See
Him Punk. I mean, he just he gets kind of
launched into a new level. And I think that's the
impact that you're that you want if you're Paul Levac
out of this this you know, retirement tour of John Cena.
Who can Who's gonna get the most out of this

(01:19:01):
for the next five years? And to me, that's Gunther
or brown Breaker?

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
What about dominic As a not an epic match, but
it's like it's someone else in their twenties, you know,
like other than bron Breaker, who seeing it can actually wrestle.
Because it's been a lot of a lot of people older,
the over thirty five, you know, age range for Sena
has been dominant has returned to her here, including you
know the bonus Samy's a match, which was really nice.

(01:19:29):
But you know, if that would be Beleis, dominic Is
is a growing candidate to be some sort of top star,
second third from the top baby face after he's done
being entertaining heel for years. And I think that's there.
You know, I'm not rolling out crazy as it sounds

(01:19:52):
to utter the words him being the top top baby
face for a while, but I think it's more likely
as a second or third baby face, but really valuable,
maybe fourth for years and just are going to really
enjoy him, and he's going to be entertaining and he
has a nact for this in the ring, he's gotten
better and character wise, there's a lot of entertainment value there.
Besides wise he can sell and bump for heels and yeah,

(01:20:14):
so is is this do you want to spend it
on him? Where there is more upside and it might
be sort of validating obviously seen and he should should
win his last match if it's going to be against Dominic,
it would be crazy for Dominic to beat him, unless
it's some big cheat fest and then it's just people.

Speaker 4 (01:20:29):
Feel, you know, screwed over.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
I think bron Breaker beating John Cena makes sense. I
think John Cena beating Dominic makes sense, happy celebration and
then dom gets to, you know, whine and complain or
say I retired John Cene in as ludicrous away as
he said, I served hard time, So I don't know,
I throw that out there, and it's certainly you know
that's also being talked about. I think Goonther Breaker and

(01:20:53):
and Dominic with you know, outside chance and Drew McIntyre
for the role Drew typically plays, you know, like incredible
heel who loses and then plays effort. I think those
are kind of that's kind of my list right now.

Speaker 3 (01:21:03):
Yeah. I mean, I think if you're gonna if the
if the stipulation is well, okay, I'm gonna do this
last match, but I'm I need to win. I'm going over.
If we want to send everybody home happy like I'm
winning this last match, then the analysis definitely changes. Then
I wouldn't I would not put Gunther in there. I
would not put brown Breaker in there. I would be
looking at more of like a a Drew or or

(01:21:25):
a dom In that sit in that scenario. But I
get the sense though that I think John Cen is
gonna be business on the way out. I think and
and if I'm Paul Laveck, I think that's what I
want them to want him to do. Like I think
that you really, I think your legacy of John as
John Cena is of course, you know you're this top
guy who ushered in you know, Yes, low ratings for

(01:21:48):
for for WWE, but you you know, repaired the public
image a lot for them, and you're a big star
and you're a seventeen time world champion, and I think
that the you you leave a stronger legacy by by
putting like the next crop of guy over And I
don't I again, I have no reporting on this, but

(01:22:09):
I I just get the sense that, like it seems
to me that that's what John Cena would think is
would think is best. And I also think that you know,
Drew McIntyre might might work out, but dom Like I
still I think the upside with Dominic mysterio is exactly
what you said. I think there's people that I was
in the crowd of WrestleMania. I mean, they love them,

(01:22:31):
they love them, but there is still an element to
him where it's there's still like that goofy comedy thing
going on there. I think they had another year to
make him more of like Sammy's Ain kind of babyface,
then I think you might might have something or a
year to make him a more you know, serious heel.

(01:22:52):
Then I think you might have something, but that the
retirement match is only like you know, four or five weeks,
five six weeks away, So I think it's a least
a little too haha right now and undefined, I might
add if because you've got the audience cheering one thing
and he's acting a different way. Like it's really kind
of the psychology around dominic isn't Isn't isn't the best

(01:23:13):
right now? Either? And for John cenas last night, I
think you want to straight up no, this crowd is
gonna cheer John Cena like crazy, and they're gonna boo
this guy like crazy, and I don't know that they
have that with Tom right now. For as weird as
that sound.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
Yeah, I mean fans laugh at dumb, but not in
a way they laugh at Grayson Waller or Zawa.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:23:36):
They they enjoy him and I think they are rooting
for him. And he's very different than Brett Hart, like
opposite in so many ways, but like they've seen this
guy from the beginning like do to be fans soper
at hard in the mid eighties on up you know
this house show job or opening match guy with frizzy
hair and then oh with Tag Rustler with Jim Knightheart
this is this is cool. They've got cool moves. There's

(01:23:58):
a cool contrast and styles and works well together. Oh,
I see title guy having good matches at a time
when Hogan is not having good matches. And so it
appealed to the people who wanted some pure work rate
and a little stampede wrestling japan edge to the action
that Brett showed off against dynam My Kid and Davey
boy Smith in those mid eighties classics on Saturday Night's
main events, the early ones.

Speaker 4 (01:24:19):
In that era.

Speaker 1 (01:24:20):
And then, oh, we need someone who isn't a steroid
guy full of scandal, who is in a h Cokein
knockoff like Lex Luger. Fans are like Bret Hart, like
dumb has a little bit of that kind of homegrown.
We're choosing him. He's unconventional, but we want him to
be the guy. And I, you know, I often say,
the next big star is not a copy of the
previous big star. You know, the next John Sena is

(01:24:42):
not John Cena. The next Roman Rain's not going to
be Roman Reigns. The next Cody ros won't be Cody
Rhodes Cody Rhodes knockoff. So you know, I I don't know.
I mean, I'm not putting my money down on domb
headlining WrestleManias before Brown Breaker. But sometimes it's just something
really unconventional kind of works in you just kind of
go with it, you know. It's kind of like Darby
Allen and a w It's like, wait, you tell people

(01:25:05):
set you know, six seven years ago, and they first
so him like he's got a headline a pay per
view in a death match against John Moxley, the guy
from the Shield. Like you'd be like, okay, yeah, you know,
really come on, like that guy. No one's gonna buy
him in that role. He's a nice utility guys. But

(01:25:25):
but he is, you know, there's told that story. So
but there, you know, as much as Darby's over and headline,
he's not the world champ defending the world title, you know.
So that's where you know what kind of novelty is
dom a top novelty act or does he have a
chance to be top top guy? When you say John
Cena wants to do business on the way out, I
think John Cena is it should be categorized as doing
business if he beats Dominic in the right way, going

(01:25:47):
up sharing the ring, kind of putting him over his
body language doesn't bury him like Austin Theory, but it says, Okay,
this guy's this guy's a weirdo, and but it's kind
of like entertaining, and I kind of see why you
guys sort of like him. But I need to beat
him right now. But someday he's going to be great.
But he showed me something, you know, there's a way
to tell that story. And I think that's doing business

(01:26:10):
more than what Sina you know, does to Austin theory
or what Jericho did for Action Andretti, you know, which
was more performative than genuine. I think, although maybe he
thought there was something there or Hogan in Kidman, you
know that kind of nonsense. Yeah, you can put someone
over even while winning.

Speaker 3 (01:26:27):
Agreed, Agreed, Agreed.

Speaker 10 (01:26:35):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
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in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:26:55):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
I don't know I mean, I just it seems like
there's something I agree with you on Dominic. I think
that Dominic mysterio, you know, and it's just wild to
be like saying this, but there there's that audio, like
the fans have a connection to them, and I think
I think you, like you made a really shrewd point
in the people laugh at them, But it's not like

(01:27:29):
they laugh at Tazawa or you know that that type
of heal even Austin theory for that for in that
in that way, it's it's it's it's different. Dominic's more
endearing and and you can't even necessarily describe it, but
you know it's there, Like it's definitely definitely there. Boy,
that that'd be a fun That's a fun uh like

(01:27:50):
bet to bet to take. I mean, I think you
have to take brown Breaker who headlines WrestleMania first. But boy,
you know you you you know my my has changed
on that the last five years regarding for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
And you still just have part of you going, Okay,
this can't be real. We can't actually be having this discussion,
you know what I mean, Like of dom being a
guy who's one of the two people you're talking about
is a future of the number one progesstling company in
the world. But you know, he gets the girls. He
served hard time, he's Ray's Sun. I mean, there's all

(01:28:24):
like these little weird, little intangibles that may not serve
him well a long term or might serve him well
in a surprising way long term. But you know what,
he's gonna have a good career. I mean, even if
he's even if he's turned too often and mid card,
you know, he's still gonna add entertainment value to WWE.
And you know there's still a chance that's what he is,
you know, but but the fact that there just is
a non zero chance of him being something significantly more

(01:28:47):
than that is is pretty fascinating. All right on the
aw front, I just brought up John Moxley and Darby Allen.

Speaker 4 (01:28:55):
The return of Sting.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):
I thought was a satisfying way to sort of have
a tr door cop out, non clean finish to a
magicles have a clean finish as there is, because it's
Sting and he's got a new look, and there's a
whole connection there with Darby and Moxley and his crew
had been interfering, so it made sense for Sting the
interfeers and it was within the rules. I thought they

(01:29:17):
pulled it off really well. You know, it's a sixty
six year old sting looking suddenly sixty six, not someone
trying to be look forty five anymore. And he had
the signature baseball bat. And then I think a more
believable finish in the sense that you know, yeah, it
ended with a basic scorpion deathlock, but and why would

(01:29:38):
Max top tap out to that? But he was just
hitting the leg with a baseball bat a couple of times,
so you know, I would I want that, I want
them to sell that, you know, like that that it
actually was, you know, damaged one to the leg. But
what were your thoughts on that pro and con.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
I I was actually very high on it as well.
I thought it was a really cool finish, unexpected did
because of who the players were, but but entirely logical
based on the story. Like I think, if you start,
if you open the hood on the story of this match,
like it's about Darby Ellen not quitting and not ever quitting,

(01:30:17):
and it's about John Moxley realizing that in the match
he's not ever going to quit, and so Moxley at
the heart is a heel, you know, and and heels quit,
and so like I think it would have I think
it would have been misguided to have like Darby just
torturing mox in this crazy submission with glass and whatever else,

(01:30:40):
because I think, like that's what people I think, that's
what's likable about mox in some weird twisted way like
that he that he can withstand that. And if if
if you do that, you're just like presenting Moxley exactly
like you're presenting Darby. And here there's supposed to be,
you know, a dynamic between the two, difference between the two,

(01:31:01):
And I thought they hit the nail on the head
by just hey, we're gonna club John Moxley's leg with
his bat and then he's gonna tap out because it
hurts and his leg's best up. Like I I just
I think that was the right That was the right call,
and I think it was better than some convoluted, overly

(01:31:21):
violent but overly scripted spot with with you know, with
glass or fire, you know, like you're not there's no
way they were gonna be able to pull that off
in a way that would have been believable. So I
think just using you know the emotions of people and
emotions of fans, and I thought, like Moxley, you know,

(01:31:41):
yelling to the referee like you don't care about him,
I care about him, Like all of that set the
table for him to just at the end going, you
know what, I'm done with this. I can't get Darby
to quit like I'm out, I'm done, and I and
I quit and I so I thought it was the
absolute right touch, and I thought Sting was A was
a good person to come back. You know, when you
look at this map and you realize like, okay, the

(01:32:02):
death Writers are gonna interfere, and Marinterfear is gonna interfere
and they're gonna cheat, It's like you don't want to
do the same thing you just did with Adam Page
and the Death Writers where it's like the Avengers assemble
and you fight off the death Writers again, but you
wanted something else, like you didn't. You can't finish that
the same way. And I thought Sting was a was
a good conduit to something similar but different at the

(01:32:25):
same time. So I, you know, yep, I give him
a lot of credit for that, for that finish, because
I I think that a previous iteration of aw would
have tried something that it couldn't pull off. I'll exploding
barboia or death match, and I think this worked.

Speaker 4 (01:32:43):
Better tomorrown on Dynamite.

Speaker 1 (01:32:45):
What kind of follow up do you want to see
to what we saw with those two on Saturday night?

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
Well, to your point, I think you got you got to.
I think you want to see John Moxley. You know,
either either you want to see him or you don't
want to see him, Like, yeah, you either want to
see him then he's selling the leg and and you know,
or he's just putting over Darby in that you know,
he's you know, describing wrestling him or fighting him in

(01:33:11):
a way where he realized like this guy wasn't gonna
say I quit, and so like I think you can
put him over in a promo and you can put
him over and put the match over. Like in terms
of how you're just how you look, do you have
a like are you selling the ankle, you're selling the
knee of the leg? I think if you're not on
the show, I think that speaks volumes as well. So
I'm looking for them to you know, address that, and

(01:33:33):
also like I'm looking to see, like what what can
you get out of Darby Allen coming out, coming out
of this, and what's next for him? That's a big
win over John Moxley and you know kind of the
blowoff and so what do you do? What do you
do next with him? It doesn't really make sense to
go to a world title program with Darby because Adam
Page is a babyface champion, but you know, you put

(01:33:55):
him over in a big way. I think you want
to have something like big for him to do now,
to take advantage of of of of the momentum and
kind of the storyline. So I also would like to
hear from him too as far as what the what
the win meant, and what's next now that he's saved
a w from from from John Moxley.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
They're not advertising either of them from what I've seen
for tomorrow night. Is that line up with your Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
No, I am not. I don't as of now, I
don't think either or they're not advertised.

Speaker 1 (01:34:25):
For the show, so they need to mention it. They
need to Yeah, oh god, you know open Dynamite with
a highlight package showing that Stings showed up and then
just go That match was so exhausting and grueling. Neither
wrestler traveled, uh, you know, to to San Antonio, Uh
to be part of Dynamite tonight.

Speaker 4 (01:34:45):
We've been in touch with Darby.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
No one has been in touch with Moxley and his
death writers Uh cohorts aren't saying anything, but there's a
way to again. You know, you want to you want
to reinforce what happened at pay per views and make
it feel super important and high impact, so that future
pay per views feel what like, important things are happening
that will be talked about afterwards, not just oh, we
got your money, the event's over. Kind of like John
Cen every time he you know, loses, he don't talk

(01:35:08):
about it, you know, just oh, Cody, did I wrestle
him last week? Oh No, I'm just moving on. That's
that title that I said was the most more thing
in the world to me. No, I'm still the last
world champion, which is so selfish and destructive to doubt
it be and Cody, yeah, hoping.

Speaker 4 (01:35:21):
He stops that.

Speaker 1 (01:35:24):
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So I want them to talk about it, but I'm

(01:36:05):
all for like mox going away for a little while,
and but I would like an injury update, like you know,
the baseball bat shots to sting hurt Moxie's leg.

Speaker 4 (01:36:14):
We don't have h you know, detailed reports.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
He's not telling us exactly what happened, but we believe
there's a possibility he's got a broken leg and that
it cracked during the Scorpion deathlock.

Speaker 4 (01:36:23):
And that's the way to defend Moxie.

Speaker 1 (01:36:24):
Now, they might want to tell the different story, which
is Darby Unders's respect, Moxy decided, you know, he had
tested Darby enough, enough was enough and and uh, you know,
he didn't have any fight left in and whatever. I mean,
hopefully they have a coherent story that matches where they
want to go with Moxley and Darby in the future.
But yeah, I mean compelling and satisfying match. Are you
okay with that going on last of a super sting's return?

(01:36:44):
Does it make sense? Mean it's generally world title men's
world titles last in aw, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (01:36:50):
Think I think that they're I think you should always
lean hardest to try to like make your world title
match go on last, because I think that you always
want that to be the thing that everybody's pointing towards,
and you want those guys to come across as the
biggest stars. But there is an exception to every rule,
and I think that this was the exception to that

(01:37:13):
rule on that night on that show, given the rep
you know, not not just because Boxley and Darby was
an I quip match or was what it was, but
you know, you just you know, you didn't have like
a top tier, premiere world title match to drop in
that spot in the women or the men's division. So yeah,

(01:37:33):
I think circumstances were appropriate, I would do it once
every you know, once every twelve to twenty pay per
views probably, But if if we stipulated that, I think
this made sense.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
Small joke training on hangmen pro or con to extend
that and have joke go ohill.

Speaker 3 (01:37:51):
You know. I have mixed feelings about this. I like
the idea of giving, you know, of going further with
this few you know, I think it Hangman paid Samoa
Joe feud is a good one on paper and in theory.
I just I just don't think anybody's gonna genuinely like
boo Samoa Joe. I think he's just passed the point

(01:38:11):
of where people are gonna truly boo him and get
behind him. I think essentially you're gonna have a similar
you know, psychology and audience vibe that you did for
the match at Wrestle Dream whenever you whenever you do
another match like He'll turn be damned. I just I
just think Joe is too likable of a guy at

(01:38:31):
this point. Is he's kind of turned himself into, you know,
a legacy star and it's just really hard to boot
that guy. And I so so so I like the match,
but I think they would have been better served just
running it back his Babyfaces though.

Speaker 4 (01:38:49):
Interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:38:49):
Yeah, I want to see the follow up tomorrow night.
I don't know that there's another Babyface match between those
on a pay per view, but maybe you know, a
special episode of Dynamite or trying to pop a collision
rating if they want.

Speaker 4 (01:39:02):
Or something if I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:39:03):
But I'm intrigued because I think Joe turning heel is
a sign he's not done yet, you know, like I
was kind of half thinking Joe lost, he's congratulating.

Speaker 4 (01:39:10):
Hey man, he's going to just announce I'm done.

Speaker 1 (01:39:11):
This is this is a peak moment to end on
headline a pay per view came up shorting it's a
guy I respect, you know, kind of just a kind
of what you know, people envisioned abstractly John Cena might do,
and we you know, we're not, we're not getting that.
Given Joe and Sina's you know, start out in California,
it's kind of it's kind of cool to see them
both headlining around the same time.

Speaker 4 (01:39:32):
Same with aj Styles of course in the Mix two.
In terms of their history, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:39:36):
Been a cool month in that way too.

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
Like I think if there's one positive about the Joe
trip heel. I think it's gonna be hard to get
the fans to to boo him. But I guess, and
I think Joe, you know, he is somebody that like
he if he's turning heel like, I don't think he's
going to be interested in being like a cool, cheered here.
I think you're gonna have a guy there that wants
to get heat and so you know, the intention will

(01:40:01):
be good in that regard, but I don't know we'll
see it amazing to be seen.

Speaker 1 (01:40:06):
I know you've got a run, but give me a
one or two sentence assessment of the state of aw
right now. In a really good place, good place, iffy,
bad place, terrible place as we kind of close out
the year.

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
I think they're in a I think they're in a
solid place. What I think they're in a solid I
think it took I think they had to go through
some steps backwards in twenty twenty five in order to
get you know, the ship turned into like the right direction.

(01:40:42):
I mean I think they have, you know, a roster
now that's pretty well well defined. I mean, you've got
Adam Page is your clear top guy. You got people
chasing the world title. You got a little secondary title
over here with Ocatta's name on it. But you know,
I think that's like the least or not not not
a huge issue at this point. I think you know

(01:41:04):
who your your guys are and your women are. I
think you know who your stars are. I think you
have a bit of a hierarchy in terms of like
who the stars are and who you're going to see
each week on TV. I think a lot of that
In twenty twenty four you just really to your point. Earlier,
you just really didn't know, and I think it took
a while. And again it took some you know, some
growing pains to get that ironed out. And now that

(01:41:28):
it is ironed out, you got to build on it properly,
and we'll see if Tony Kahn can can do that.
But the first step is kind of putting context around
as much as you can, defining as much as you can,
and building that good foundation. You have to have that first.
You have to have that first, and it's not the
sexiest thing to build all the time. And now you know,

(01:41:49):
I think in twenty twenty six he can he gets
to build on it, and so solid not good not bad.

Speaker 1 (01:41:55):
Yeah, I think they have a lot of things that
you just mention our boxes, a lot lot of things
you just listed and mentioned our boxes checked that a
year ago would have been empty boxes that you would
say they need to check, you know, Like, so that's good.
There's still fundamentally something about the product that they promote,
in the way they promote it that embraces what they're

(01:42:17):
good at and what's.

Speaker 4 (01:42:18):
Tony, what made Tony Kana fan that.

Speaker 1 (01:42:20):
Excludes to their peril, what needs to happen for them
to expand their audience. And I look at attendance figures,
TV viewership and I still go, yeah, they're going to
get a lot of positive loop feedback for the people
who there are left that they're super serving. But they're
still fundamentally at the core Tony Khan, the culture of

(01:42:43):
the wrestlers, especially the announcing and the way the product
is presented there, that's that that doesn't to me say yeah,
they've got a chance to grow. You know, there's no
big signings, there's no big splash that I think they
can make at this point. You know, he's not going
to let that happen. They're going to continue to get
cast offs, and try to make the best of them

(01:43:05):
and you know, pluck from Nu Japan. But I mean
I'm worried to you know, where's this next wave of
talcon come from in three years? Who are they going
to freshen up the roster with when some of these
guys are just so beat up and injured and can't work.
So I still have concerns. But I think you listed
the positives that that may you know, means it's solid,
but in terms of do you look and go, yeah,
they actually have adjusted their attitude, in their approach and

(01:43:28):
their philosophy to do things that aren't as instinctually obvious
and natural for them.

Speaker 4 (01:43:33):
But they're doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:43:34):
Now because they're they're cognizant of what isn't what needs
to be done to grow that isn't just self satisfying.

Speaker 3 (01:43:42):
So there were I agree. I mean, yeah, they get
a long way to go, there's no doubt about that.

Speaker 4 (01:43:47):
Was that horn for you?

Speaker 3 (01:43:50):
No, No, it's not for me. It's outside of my house.

Speaker 4 (01:43:52):
Though I don't know why they're yeah, okay, I.

Speaker 1 (01:43:56):
Know you have to run, So it's like, well, maybe
their person is going no, gotcha, So Zach, before we go,
let's s end on this phone. Tell people how they
can hear more from you because you you are following
rust and closely and still covering it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:06):
Yes, yes, I've still covered it. The place we can
get most of my stuff at this point is over
at Sports Illustrated the Takedown on as I on my
right for the website every single day features editorials, news,
all sorts of stuff. Also am a talent on the
YouTube page as well, so there's weekly shows that we

(01:44:27):
have that go up there all throughout, all throughout the week,
pay per view previews and just a regular a regular
slate of shows. That's that's Monday through Friday. So you
can check me up there. Subscribe to the Takedown on
the sid YouTube channel. Really good people over there, some
really good, good strong coverage that I'm I'm proud of
and hopefully yeah you check you check that once again,

(01:44:49):
it's the Takedown on s I on YouTube and just
you know, favorite it and make a home screen for
it on your on your movie.

Speaker 4 (01:44:58):
Zach, always great talking wrestling with you. I will do
the again soon.

Speaker 3 (01:45:00):
Sounds a good way. I appreciate it. Thanks you, bet,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:45:20):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wade Keller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even follow us on
Twitter at PW torch and follow me at the Wade Keller.
That's at PW Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 6 (01:45:43):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at Pro Wrestling dot need along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews notable names in the
pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and all

(01:46:04):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:46:13):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website pw toorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and AEW.
Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 5 (01:46:37):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
will come join me alanforel Over in the Progress Paradise
at pdwew Torch VIP as we mask on the bright
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(01:46:59):
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such as the We Love Liger series celebrating the glorious
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When shows where our guests will join me to talk
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We love variety and you can expect lots of it
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(01:47:21):
on a list of all the VIP benefits is available
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podcasts are compatible with popular podcast apps on iPhone and
Android devices or you can stream them directly from our
ad free VIP mobile site, See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (01:47:41):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weightkeller Pressing Podcast
and Weightkeller Processing Post show and give us a five
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(01:48:03):
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Speaker 4 (01:48:14):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 7 (01:48:18):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 11 (01:48:33):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
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the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (01:48:47):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(01:49:10):
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There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
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(01:49:32):
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