NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Parks - Did Samoa Joe or A.J. Styles have better body of work, plus TNA BFG preview, Don Callis Family, more - Wade Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
All right, Greg, I did not tell you I was
going to give you what's essentially kind of not a
hot quiz, but an unexpected question that you haven't had
time to think about, but it's timely with who are
in two of the top two matches the next two weekends?
Who has been a better overall wrestler, Not who's made
more money or who's more famous, but who's been the
better Who has a better body of work? Samoa Joe

(01:43):
or Aj Styles two people who had parallel pat or
worked with each other in TNA, had some really nice
matches but now separate places, but both finding themselves in
big matches the next two weekends.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
My gut instinct is to say AJ Styles. That's kind
of where I land on that. I think AJ's in
ring work has aged more gracefully than Samojo's has, if
that's a polite way to put it. I guess not
to say that Samojo is bad by any stretch, but Aj.
I think he's I think Aj has worn his age

(02:22):
pretty well. I think he has kind of slowed down
a little bit over the last couple of years. I
think there's some purpose to that as well. I don't
think it's just because his youthful bounce has been sapped
by age. I think there is some level of him
wanting to adjust his in ring over time as well,

(02:44):
so I would say styles. But I'm really intrigued in
seeing both of these guys. You know, we're going to
talk tn A a little later on, and these are two
real center pieces in the history of TNA if you
were to do I know, we're also going to Mount
Rushmore things, but they would be on the Mount Rushmore
of t and a roster probably. Oh yeah. So to

(03:05):
see them where they are right now, headlining pay per
views on consecutive weekends for two separate companies, I think
is a really interesting time.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
I think Simo and and the fact that it's even
a discussion, like you know, like okay exide with AJ.
I think some people inside of Simojo it'd be interesting
poll to run. Although so many more people have seen
AJ's work the last you know, five plus years in
w B, but Simojo had that r H title run,
which is still like historically significant in terms of the

(03:37):
diversity of opponents, the quality of matches, and how much
it unexpectedly put RH on the map. Like I remember
first hearing the name Samoa Joe and I'm like, Okay,
He's not really going to use that name, is he? Like,
I mean that was my first out, Like come on,
you get how how good can he be? If that's
how creative his name is? And because r H was

(03:57):
like an indie all star show when it first launched,
all these wrestles you had heard about, and they were
usually junior heavyweight cruiserweight style wrestlers with like resumes of
standout any work in Japan or United States, and Samo
Joe come on and they made him champ and I'm like, oh, really,
like are you that hard up? And then it was
like whoa. I mean just started earning my respect big
time with that series. And I don't know that AJ

(04:21):
has anything that matches that singular kind of like moment.
His body work in TNA amazing obviously, and he put
the X division on the map. I don't know that
TNA would still have an X division to worn't for him.
I still remember talking to Jerry Jared on the phone
when he was planning on launching TNA with with his
son Jeff, and he was like, yeah, you know, I've

(04:41):
heard about this kid named AJ Styles, who I hear
great things about. We're gonna like we don't want to
just use x WW guys. We want to create some
new stars. AJ is one of the top two guys.
The other top guy he talked about in the same
conversation with David Young. It did not turn out as
well for him, but AJ was targeted from the beginning

(05:02):
to be a centerpiece of TNA, and he was, and
so he had a great run. And then the fact
that they have had a chance across paths obviously it's
very cool. I wish they could do a video package
on it, but they're, you know, competing companies, and there's
no incentive to do so so. And I think there's
a lot of wrestlers who are like AJ styles, but
I don't know. I think it's a shorter list of

(05:23):
wrestlers who excelled the way Samo Joe did as a
badass brawler who also was an annoying exception for me,
but an exception who went into the ext division. I
remember as thinking, he Jerry Jared, why, what's the how
can Joe be in the ex division? It's implied there's
a weight limit. He goes, no, there's no limits, and
I'm like, well, then, why wouldn't any heavyweight go in
there because they're not as athletic. And I'm like, yeah,
but storyline wise, why would have heavy weight not go

(05:45):
on there? Oh? I don't think anyone cares about that.
I'm like, why I do? But maybe I'm alone. So
I I mean, the styles are so different. That's why
ask a question. It's a fun talking point. Everyone listening hopefully.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
And I do think it really depends on what your
preference is for style. I think it's to that well.
I think they're so close that the tiebreaker is kind
of do you prefer the brawling, you know, the the
media men slapping meat type matches that Samoa Joe tends
to have, or do you prefer the high flying X
division style that AJ Styles was known for for much

(06:16):
of his career.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, exactly, yep. And so I mean, and I'm I mean,
I love like Brad Hard called himself the excellence of execution,
and he was in the nineties, but AJ took that
realm took that mantle like I mean, his his early
work in TNA, the extra snap, just that that that
sharpness to everything he did. Evan Bourne U, Matt Sidell

(06:40):
had that when he first got pushed in B and
I would compliment him by comparing him to AJ Styles,
Like anybody who has that that Christmas and snap and
there's a little something extra in what they do. I
refer to AJ styles with that. But when there's an agile, big, agile,
big wrestler who can brawl but also keep up in
a way that defies his seemingly defies his size, I

(07:02):
compare him to some O Joe. I mean, I think
they both are generational talents in that way. The thing
about AJ too, that I really like that I don't
think enough people talk about is he seems like he
is tough, and a lot of wrestlers seem tough. But
most wrestlers who are in the cruiserweight realm, you know,
you don't think of Paul London or Brian Kendrick like

(07:24):
you know, like just grabbing two names. You don't think, oh,
they're they're badasses. You're like, no, they're really athletic and
they're fun to watch. Style seems like i'd want him
in a street fight, like he's he's a guy who
you believe can can really defend himself in real life too,
not just be acrobatic. And I think that was a
big difference with him because he didn't have great promos.

(07:44):
He didn't have like look wise, like anything super distinctive.
You know, in a lineup of people who aren't wrestling fans,
if you just line up AJ with a bunch of
other guys who didn't make it but look sort of
like him, no one would go, oh, AJ was a star.
He doesn't have that jump off the page photo charisma
that a lot of really had.

Speaker 3 (08:00):
A baby face for a lot of his run in TNA.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah, yeah, and so, and you know, you never quite
figured the hair thing out, you know, like or I
shouldn't say that. He was trying different hair, hairstyles, and
then he did the soccer mom hair and I was like,
no that, you know, like that's okay, that works for him.
You know, I'd like, I've been okay with it, but
he didn't have like this one thing that he just goes, yeah,
this is my look. I think he's been more successful
than CM punk has lately when it comes to figuring

(08:25):
out a look with the hair that that feels natural
and not still in search of something. So I have
utmost respect for both guys in their ring work, and
it's been like super cool to see their careers. I
know they each take different paths. I remember talking to
Samo Joe once and he's like, you know, should I
go to NXT or should I try to get gigs
in Japan? Or should I go the route of TNA.

(08:46):
I think it was mostly NXT versus TNA after the
ROH run and you know, and then and that was
at a time when Cmpunk was deciding where he was
going to go to and Punk went NXT, Joe went
to TNA, And it's like you can kind of look
at at that and make, you know, think about how
different the world would be if Joe had made a
different decision as far as that goes too. So they
were part of that two thousands era where style wise,

(09:10):
they where they went, they had an impact. And it's
here we are in twenty twenty five and aj Styles
is one of John Cena's second or third or fourth
last opponent whatever. However many match more matches he has,
I don't know for sureman, he's going to have an
element how many appearances he has, but one of his
final matches in his final couple months, and you got
Samoa Joe headlining a pay per view against AWA world

(09:32):
champion in his prime. I mean, it's a I don't
think twenty years ago I would have necessarily thought that'd
be happening here in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but it is pretty
wild to think about. And you know, for a while
you think Somemojo's career is over. He settles into an
announcer in WWE, and then he gets back into it.
And to take that level of time off, get back
into it and come back and get a push like
this and be a part of a major paper review
is is not nothing. You know, that's impressive. Uh for

(10:04):
him to be able to turn around and get right
back in the ring, and uh, you know, with the
size he carries, you know, you always wonder how the
inn ring is going to age, But I think his
in ring is such that it it doesn't take away
from you know, from what he does and what he's
known for. He can kind of still do that. I mean,

(10:25):
you look at somebody like, eh, you know, agent wear
and tear. I'm taking a toll on him, but he
can still do a lot of what he's done before
and what he's known for and what fans come to
expect from and I think the same is true of
Samoa Joe.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
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(11:00):
VIP membership starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents.
Treat yourself to a streamlined, ad and plug free listening
experience with a VIP or Patreon membership. Yeah. I think
people who've only seen Joe the last ten years would
and haven't looked at his early work, ought to, you know,
like go look at try to seek out his ROH runs. Fine,

(11:23):
look at his early his early TNA work. He was
a different wrestler then, but there's a big part of
him that is the same. And it's not just the
more brawling kind of big guy badass you had a
good term earlier for it style He's not going to
be the flyery once was. He's put on more weight,
and obviously age and injuries are going to catch up.

(11:44):
But the other thing that he always had is just
you know, I said about Agent, he looked like a
guy who could fight, who's a real athlete, not just
an athlete who's flashy, but like an athlete who's tough.
And Joe always had that. But Joe carries himself and
we saw it on Tuesday night on Dynamite. He still
has that that factor of It's why people still love
to chant Joe's going to kill you, because they think Joe,

(12:05):
if you cross him, he's going to kill you. And
so Joe still has that, and that's why they can
plug him in as kind of a utility, you know,
title challenger on short notice and make it work.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
You know.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I think this was wardlow spot, and I think because
of Wardlow's injury that this opened up and they're like, well,
you know, there's Joe, let's do him. And that segment
Tuesday I thought was really good. What do you think
rig it was?

Speaker 3 (12:31):
It was excellent. I think there were a lot of
people wondering if Samoa Joe headlining a major aw pay
per view challenging for the world title was the right
move at this stage of his career, and I think
he won over a lot of doubters with that promo.
I wasn't the content of it. I wasn't thrilled with.
I thought they could have gone a little bit of
a different direction with Joe in the explanation of why

(12:55):
he did what he did. I thought, kind of disrespecting
Page and saying he doesn't deserve to be champion or
whatever the phrasing was, it didn't pretend. Yeah, it just
didn't ring true. I mean, when you think of what
Page has gone through and to be champion, even a
heel like Samoa Joe, you would imagine would kind of
have some grudging respect for the level of violence that

(13:17):
Paige has seen and has come out the other side
as champion. So I just didn't love that explanation. But
in terms of delivery, in terms of you know, the
the bark matching the bite, so to speak, of Samoa Joe,
he brought it and Page brought it on his end
as well. And I think again, if you doubted Samoa
Joe and the fact that he's Maine eventing a pay

(13:40):
per view challenging for the world title. I think that
promo battle that we saw on Tuesday had the potential
to win over some of those doubters.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Another thing I like, and you make a good point
about the content aspect, because you know who's gonna if
Joe has credibility. He doesn't seem like somebody who would
insult someone for the sake of it if they don't
believe it. And to say that that he's up pert
tender and a fraud does feel a little little heavy,
heavier handed than feels credible. That said, if it's I

(14:11):
think it's to set up the notion that hangman is
going to earn his respect and that Joe afterwards, you know,
I don't know if it's raising his arm, patting him
on the back, nodding at him, grabbing the mic afterwards,
and giving him a little speech. But I think what
they're going to do is turn this into Joe essentially
endorsing him as going, all right, you're not a fraud,
you're not a pretender, You're in my respect. You know

(14:34):
you're gonna hold this title for a while, like something
like that. And I like that moment. I think that
should be on Booker's minds. In pro wrestling, more often
is that that match that that really validates somebody who
either tried to move up the card or establish as
that season or that year or that era's top wrestler,
which is certainly what Av's trying to do with Hangmen.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, and Joe has some cachet with the fans, even
though he's not pushed as it made Ventor frequently, fans
still see him as kind of the standard bearer of
what is badass, and if someone like that endorses Adam Page,
then that's that's a big endorsement for him in terms
of the fans seeing him as someone on Joe's level

(15:18):
in terms of that bad ass ory.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Do you almost one hundred percent expect hang Man to
win or is there some something going on or is
there can you conjure a situation where Tony Khin's like Man?
The viewership was awful this week and it was lowest
viewership on cable TV ever for Dynamite, And I mean
they're up against NXT on an off night and they

(15:41):
dropped nearly as low last year, So it's and they
have Yeah, so all kinds of excuses, but nevertheless, he's like,
oh God, maybe we need a spark. Let's shock people.
Let's make everyone assume not no longer be able to
feel safe assuming kind of like with Jay Us, so
rumble win. You can never assume anything with us. And
then you have the title match and hang Man gets
it back in a couple wednesdays. I'm not entirely ruling

(16:03):
that out, and I'm not just doing it to talk
myself into buying into near Falls to add a little
drama to the pay per view next weekend. There's part
of the things I could imagine. I don't think that'd
be a horrible, crazy thing to do, because I think
Joe's credible enough, and I think there's still some promos
to be had between those two.

Speaker 3 (16:20):
I think anyone challenging for a world title on pay
per view, you should be able to make an argument
for why they should win or why they could win. Yeah, so,
you know, just on principle, I guess if you're booking
a pay per view main event asking people to shell
out fifty bucks or whatever it is, you know there
should be people should be able to, at least in
their mind, try to come up with ways that that

(16:42):
person could win. So, you know, that being said, I
really strain to come up with a credible way that
Simojo wins here, or a credible explanation for why, you know,
you cite the ratings and things like that. I don't
think Tony is in panic mode with that. You know,

(17:04):
he has a really good relationship with the with Warner Discovery,
and so I don't think he's in the business of
making those kind of panic moves the way that in
the Monday Night War era you'd see WWE or WCW
react to ratings and try to blow things out of
the water the next week. A lot of that was

(17:25):
because they were head to head and they didn't want
to fall too far behind the competition, or they wanted
to take advantage of a win that they had and
try to get some momentum. That's really not the case
with Tony Connan with AW. They're not going head to
head on Wednesday nights with WWE. So yeah, I just
don't I don't see Joe. I think you make as

(17:46):
compelling of an argument you can make for why he
might be under the briefest of considerations for beating Hangman
page there. But I also think AW has invested a
lot in Page as their top guy right right now,
and I think they're still kind of building him to
be their top babyface, and I just worry about the

(18:09):
potential damage that could be done to that if you
have him lose so quickly and to someone who a
lot of fans just don't see as on the level
of Adam Page right now. As much as we talk
up Simo Joe in the attitude that he brings to
the table, He's just not been pushed at that level,
and I think there is risk of doing damage to
how Page is seen going forward as a main eventor

(18:32):
in the eyes of fans, if you're trying to still
establish him at that level as the top babyface in
the company.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Well, if Tony Kahn's listening and tomojo is listening and
Joe wants to know why Tony changes his mind on
giving him a short title reign, here, blame Greg both. Yeah. Yeah,
if you convinced Tony to not do something he was
thinking of and Joe thought it was going to happen
and now it's not, it's all Greg's fault. No, that's
I'm joking. But you make a good case for why

(18:58):
not to do it, and generally speak, I'm not for
hot potato title changes, and you know you shouldn't. You
shouldn't diminish the value of a world title change because
of viewership. You should the same way that you know,
not eating for two days doesn't solve your year round
problem of calorie intake and exercise. Like like cramming for
a test is not the best way to get a

(19:18):
good grade. You should just you know, study for weeks
ahead of time. We all know that, and promoters need
to follow the same program. You don't punish wrestlers like
Hangman with a random title change that doesn't make sense
just because you maybe haven't been the best booker, or
you've had some misfortune with injuries. You know, all kinds
of things can cause that. How do you feel about

(19:40):
how Hangman is doing in this role? Speaking of him?
You know you said, hey, you know you want to
They want to build him as a centerpiece right now.
Beating Joe and and Joe endorsing him can be part
of that journey. I know there's you know, some thought,
oh it would be well ast prayed they should go
with him, don't delay it, build it around him. How
how is Hangman doing when you look at the health
healthy and the people who are sidelined right now in

(20:02):
terms of the options that they have. Do you think Guy,
he's maybe my third choice, but he's okay or no,
he's clearly the best guy right now for them to
go with.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, I like that aw has chosen Page and they're
not equivocating. They're going full steam ahead with him. And
you know my preference, And I know we've talked about
it on the show before. I've talked about it on
the post shows. As Will Osprey obviously he's out of
commission right now. Kenny Omega is never going to be
the full time guy anymore and be on TV every

(20:31):
week and be competing at a high level every week anymore,
the same way that Adam Page can. And I think
he's benefited in some ways from Will Osprey being off
TV and taking care of injuries and Kenny Omega not
being on TV. It does make him look like the
sensible choice as the top baby face star without the

(20:53):
other babyfaces who would potentially not step on his toes necessarily.
But fans could say, hmm, you know, they got Pages champion.
But Osprey's right there, He's better in the ring he's
a really good promo. Why aren't they going with him?
I think the fact that they're off TV right now
does help Page's position and help him in the eyes

(21:18):
of fans. But also aw's go and full steam ahead
with him, and I really respect that.

Speaker 1 (21:24):
Let's saw a positive introduce ourselves and then I want
to shift to talk about aj Styles's match against Sina.
What to expect there? Is he a good choice? We'll
get it. All that.

Speaker 5 (21:33):
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Speaker 1 (22:39):
This is a wade Keller Pro Wrestling podcast, a special
Thursday Flagship episode on October ninth, twenty twenty five. Because
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(22:59):
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Speaker 1 (26:05):
Very good our email editors. By the way, you can
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our listeners. Give us feedback, ask questions, suggest topics, all
that good stuff. All right, So I mentioned obviously we
talked about Tomojo and ages styles at the beginning. Let's

(26:26):
talk about aj styles where he is in his career.
You talk, we're talking about Joe and things he kind
of can't do as well as he once did, but
is he making up for it in other ways, or
does he just have enough of a foundation there to
be I think a credible world title challenger in the
year twenty twenty five, Ages Styles, you know that footage
that they showed of him when he first arrived in WWE.

(26:50):
He looks different now. I mean, there's there's some age
aging in terms of his his physique, not as as
sleek and spelt as he was when he first arrived
in w B, when certainly had a high incentive to
impress and and you know, try to impress Vinsic Man,
especially at that point. And so you know, when he

(27:12):
arrived in WWE, I think there was still a lot
of who aj Styles always was left in him. But
then time has beating him up. And then you know,
since he arrived in w W in like twenty sixteen,
like almost ten years ago, it's he's had a great

(27:34):
body of work. But he's in some ways the same Russer.
In some ways he's not, And I'm it's kind of
gray mysterio, you know, like he's people still love him,
but my god, he's just not the same guy he
was in the early nineties athletically, but there's something about
him and we I think we saw it on the
promo on Ron Monday, where he just carries himself like

(27:55):
I can still do this, and you know, even if
there's not a lot of time left, and I think
people still buy into them. It's I'm curiously your thoughts
on on what you expect from this match and also
how you feel about them choosing Styles as one of
Seena's final opponents. It's not already made feud, you know.
The tagline is we don't need a storyline. You know,

(28:16):
there doesn't need to be a story. That's just a
battle of two people. And I thought the video on
Raw made a really compelling case for it is one
of Who's better videos. It'd been doing good ones. I
mean the Cody stuff's been good too with Seth, So yeah, yeah,
tell me how just your general thoughts on on Styles
and Sena being matched up, in what you expect and
how you feel about the match.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
I'm not sure if Styles would have made my top
five or even top ten list of wrestlers I would
have expected Sina to face in his final five or
ten matches, So from that perspective, it's it's interesting. I
have to imagine Sina had a lot of input on

(28:56):
who his final matches are with. So is Aj Styles
someone WWE would have selected to be a final match
for John Cena? Maybe not, Maybe it was one that
Cina wanted. Maybe that's why it seems so out of
left field for Styles to be an opponent here at
this stage of Senior's game. I also do wonder if

(29:21):
you know, Aj Styles has been making noise about retiring
next year. I think he said next year's WrestleMania will
be his last, so I think people are kind of
expecting him to hang it up next year. So this
could be just a nice parting gift for for Aj
Styles as well, even though it's not been mentioned on TV,
you know, to have him and John Cena, two guys

(29:42):
who by this time next year may not be wrestling
at all wrestling. I think Is may have played a
part in it, from either Cena's side or WWE side,
or even styles aside. But yeah, it's I think in
terms of the match. You know, we've seen Seena since
he he's gone back to being a babyface, his matches

(30:04):
have been much better, and I would say that Styles
matches up with him pretty well right now. Styles has
just enough athleticism left to kind of make up for
scene as lack of But he can also wrestle a
style that scene is comfortable with. He can wrestle on
the mat. He can do the simple things very well
still too. And it's not going to be a walk

(30:27):
and brawl. I don't think this is going to be
a match where they need to do, you know, hide
seen his weaknesses by fighting through the crowds or anything
like that, even though AJ Styles is a longtime t
and a wrestler and that's what they were known for
for a very long time. So I think it'll be good.
I think it will stay within the parameters of what
John Cena can do, and I think Styles is going

(30:48):
to bring a dose of athleticism. It's not probably going
to jump off the page, but it's you know, I
think WWE's main events, especially with Cody Rohodse, I mean
you look at Cody Ross, Drew Back and Tire in
terms of the main event last month, I don't think
there's anything that they did that seene in AJ Styles
can't do necessarily from a main event bell to bell standpoint.

(31:11):
So I think that's just kind of what the main
event scene is turned into in WWE of late, it's
a lot more ground based, and I think they can
live within those parameters.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show or a topic you want us to
address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch
dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's
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us to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(31:45):
that same email applies Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Would you have
approached this match setting it up differently than saying the

(32:06):
fans wanted it, so we're giving it to you. Was
there something else they could have done here? A tinge
of styles going being heelis or coming at scene in
a way that that call that led to the match
being booked, or another way? Would you have liked to
have seen this match when Sina was a heel, so
AJ could just be cheered. I'm I'm curious what kind
of crowd reaction we get, So I'll add that as

(32:28):
a kind of a question added to it, do you
expect fans just be in favor of both or do
you think they're going to take sides against one and
for the other. So part one, when do you think
of how they're framing it and explaining why it's happening
into what would crowd reaction be?

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Well, in terms of the crowd reaction, it's in Australia
and that's not a fan base we're used to seeing,
and so I can't you know, it's not like Chicago
or New York City or a fan base where you've
seen dozens of times and you can kind of predict
how they're going to go. But I would to assume
that they're gonna be fully behind Seena and that might
mean booze for AJ Styles. We saw a couple of

(33:07):
weeks ago on SmackDown sammy' Zane getting boo pretty heavily
against John Cena, and Zaane is a pretty strong baby face,
perhaps even stronger than AJ Styles at this point, so
I don't think Styles will be exempt from getting boo
just because he's the man opposite John Cena in Seena's
last match in the country of Australia. I always defer

(33:27):
to a stronger storyline than just putting two guys together
just because, which is kind of the story they're telling here.
I know there's a fan demand aspect of it that
I'm not sure even rings true at this point, but
they could have come up with something a little deeper.
But the problem is, you know, Scene is not on

(33:47):
TV very often, so you're gonna have to have Styles
come up with some way. And I wouldn't turn Styles
heel because if you want Styles to be a baby
face beyond the Sena match, it's not worth it to
turn him heel for this match and then turn them
back babyface, or turn him heel and keep them heal
if you don't want him to be heal. So I
don't know that there's a lot that they could have done.

(34:09):
They were really hamstrung by Sina just not being on
TV very often, and Styles is not a guy who's
going to go out there and b CM Punker b
Drew McIntyre and carry the Mic work in a few
he's gotten a lot better than his TNA days, absolutely,
but he's not going to be the guy to kind
of carry it on a week to week basis being
the only voice you hear in this feud. So I

(34:31):
sympathize with with WWE, and they're coming up empty kind
of with with a meteor story for this match, So
I again, I kind of understand it, but as one
of John Cena's final matches, you would have liked to
have seen something more to it than Hey, the fans

(34:52):
demanded it, so here it is?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Is it just pretty clear seeing it just wins and
fans go home happy and the ones who wanted see
it to win? I mean, is that is there? Or
is there is? Is? Is a third person going to
be involved in this?

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Who does?

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Yeah? I mean Lesnerd kind of proved his point. I
don't know, Yeah, well more could he do? You know?

Speaker 6 (35:18):
Like yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah? But but let's say they want to go with
gunther match. You know, do you have gunder show up
and that leads to you know, it influences the outcome,
which leads to a first a scene, a match, and
then maybe even a few gunther and styles afterwards. Or
something like that, and just you know, is there some
something else that you could see as a that the

(35:41):
match itself is what it is. It's cool, but it's
a bridge to something else for one or both.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
I think had Sena not lost to Lesnar, I would
have believed more strongly that Styles could win this match.
I don't see Scena losing two matches on his way out.
I think there's a story there about how does he
recover from the brock Lesner loss and the beating he

(36:09):
took in that match, and aj Styles is the first
mountain he has to climb to get back to where
he wants to be and get back to as close
to vintage John Cena that he can for his last match,
And I wonder if there's a story in there with
him trying to go out on top. And that's where
Gunther comes in to be his final opponent in terms

(36:32):
of you know, there are some similarities between Gunther and
brock Lesner in the way that they sometimes dominate their opponents.
And maybe Cina sees Gunther is court sort of the
modern day brock Lesner, and if he couldn't beat brock Lesner,
maybe he can beat a newer better version of brock
Lesner on his way out. Maybe there's a story there,
but I think first he's got to get by Styles.

(36:54):
He's got to win. He's got to get some of
that confidence back. We saw when he did lose to Lesnar.
The camera stayed on him, showed the dejection on his
face from having lost in the way he did. So
I think you know that comeback probably starts Saturday against
aj Styles.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yep, all right, let's uh, I want to go back
to some DoD and AAA topics, but let's shift to
Bound for Glory because we talked some t and I
here because Joe and Styles have their history there. They've
got their biggest annual events Sunday. It's in between uh,
the the Dobe B and a W events, Crown Jewel
and Wrestle Dream and it's a it's a nice lineup

(37:34):
and it has a match between the Hardy's and Team
three D, two wrestlers of a similar era of Styles
and Joe when they first started and seeing it for
that meta rising up through the ranks. I was at
the teen AMPEC tapings for the setup for this when
the tour in the ring and they went back and
forth and it was. It was the only holy shit
chant of the whole two nights of tapings, which I
loved because I'm not a fan of that chant as

(37:56):
as well established because I think it's a sign and
the fans are not engaged in seeing an outcome, They're
just deciding to be you know, reviewers saying you are
entertaining us for having a good time, thank you. And
I don't think that's the highest compliment fans can actually
pay wrestlers, although wrestlers A lot of wrestlers take it
as a compliment, and it's not the worst thing in
the world, obviously, but to not be chatting this is

(38:16):
awesome or holy shit? Actually I think it was this
is awesome, not holy shit. I think both were there,
but this is awesome chance is actually what my little
mini right there was about. And this though, does feel
for fans who have been longtime fans or catching up
in the history of take team wrestling. I think this
match is a draw, you know. I mean it is
the last time they're building. It is last time they're

(38:37):
going to wrestle each other. And the promo setting it
up was really good. The buzz in that building, as
I said, was oh, my god, I can't believe I'm
here for this. Look at these two guys facing off.
Didn't think I'd ever see this again. What do you
think of this? Greg? I don't know if it goes
on last. I kind of think they should have Mike
Santana likely beating Trick Williams to win the TEENA World
title last. I'm a fan of your perpetual top draw

(39:02):
that never gets injured. Is your world title, and I
think you should protect that and put it on last
any time a case can be made for it. But
and especially when you're crowding somebody new, it's not just
a secondary title defense like you might say, hey man,
Joe could be it could be secondary to to say
mox and Darby if you really wanted it to be
without it being an outrage. But a Santanna's going to

(39:22):
get a crown finally as TEENA champ, I think that
you go on last. So but the Hardys and Team
three D could so tell tell me what you think
of this match. I wouldn't blame anyone for going I'm
bored with it. I'd rather see them putting over young talent.
You know, younger guys. But how do you feel about this.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, you know, the Hardy's and Team three D. They're
hearkening back to their WWE days with this, but both
of them have both teams have spent a significant chunk
of time in TNA as well, So it's not as
if TNA is just you know, borrowing from whole cloth
wrestlers in a story from a completely different promotion. You know,

(39:59):
they've they've built up a reputation in TNA as well,
so I think it's fine. I think, you know, the
TV time that they've gotten has been fine. They've done
a nice job with that. And it's you know, in
the olden days of TNA, this would have been the focus.
It would have been these guys who were big stars

(40:19):
in a previous era in another company are the focus,
the main event, whatever. But they feel more like the
Garnish to as you said, Trick Williams and Mike Santana
a more modern day roster today, and I think that's
the way you use legends like this, And I'm really
interested to see it's billed as one final table the

(40:41):
TNA World Tag Team Titles, the NXT Tag Team titles,
not that the Hardy's won it on Tuesday night are
on the line here. I think that really projects that
the Hardys are going to win, because I don't think Devon.
I think this is kind of the swan song for
Devon here. I know he's had some health issues recently
that makes me a little nervous about him being in

(41:02):
a match of this level, but certainly not something where
I can see him.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Now he's tag champion and he has to defend both
of these sets of titles unless they just kind of
gave them up after winning this match. So yeah, I
think it's it's a nice nod to history. I think
there is a fan base out there that this appeals
to fans who were young during that era as I was,
who remember fondly and like the nostalgia that trickles through

(41:30):
our veins when we think about things like that and
being young and being a big fan of that era
of wrestling. I think it appeals to them, and I
think you're right. I think it is a draw, and
I do think Mike Santana and Trick Williams should go
on last, not only because Mike Santana is likely winning
the title here, but this is a statement by TNA.

(41:52):
You know, Trick Williams is an NXT wrestler. They've made
a big deal about how upset the roster is, the
locker room is at an NXT wrestler holding the TNA
championship and Mike Santana, a TNA wrestler, winning the title
from Trick Williams should be a big moment in the
rivalry between TNA and NXT and for TNA in general,

(42:14):
and I think that has to go on last.

Speaker 7 (42:20):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 8 (42:35):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members, I.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Assu who had a better career in terms of their
body of work? A just I was of Simojot to
start the show. How about the Hardys and Team three D?
What's your What are the pros and cons to make
the case for for either team. Both have had singles runs. Obviously,
Bela Ray a successful run as a singles wrestler, and
Jeff Hardy and Matt Hardy and in separate ways, have

(43:12):
had singles runs also, but they're always going to be
known mostly for their for their tag team work. Who
had the better career? Is it even? Is it close
or not close?

Speaker 3 (43:22):
Are we talking just as a tag team or are
we counting the singles there?

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Let's let's talk about in the tag team real, Okay,
if we don't. If we don't, you can give a
little bonus point tiebreaker because of say, you know, the
work they did as singles, But really, I'm I'm you know,
ninety five percent of the grade for them should be
based on their tag teamwork.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
I think it's the Hardys. I think if you were
including the singles runs, I think it would be the
Hardy's by a wider margin, because I think they've both
been much more successful as singles wrestlers. Bully Ray has
had a lot of success as a singles wrestlers, held
world titles, but Devon just hasn't, and so that would

(44:04):
drag that comparison down a little bit. But I think
it's the Hardy's, you know, for Team three D maybe
maybe unfortunately, maybe undeservingly kind of gets the rap as
more of the garbage wrestlers. They came from ECW. That
was their style in ECW. They changed it once they
got to WWE. But really, I mean the fact that

(44:26):
they're in a tables match here and harkening back to
a TLC match shows you that they didn't completely leave
that style behind when they came to WWE, whereas the
Hardy's I think had more range in their matches, And
for that, I would say the Hardys.

Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, yeah, I'm with you on that. How about if
you throw edgen Christian in the mix because they just
had the match that they build it as a really
big deal against you know, FTR as a battle of
greatest one air against the greatest of another. Was how
aw framed it? Where did Christian Edge fit into the
Hardys and Team three D discussion?

Speaker 3 (45:00):
I think if you're solely looking at the tag teams,
they're probably third, just because I don't think they had
the longevity that the Hardys and Team three D did
as a tag team. But if you separate them and
you start counting singles, then I think they're in the
conversation for number one just based on the strength of
Edge and his world title runs. I know Jeff Hardy

(45:21):
had a world title run, but it's very brief. Edge
has had numerous major titles, and I think Christian and
Matt Hardy sort of cancel each other out. They're very
similar in that regard getting a lot of US title
Intercontinental title that level pushes as singles and even Christian,
you know, getting the ECW title a couple of times.
I think Matt Hardy won it maybe once, but Christian

(45:43):
was much closer to the top for a longer period
of time I think than Matt Hardy was.

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Let's not partlay this into discussion about Mike Santana, because
you know Santana and Ortiz, there's wrestlers who are known
for tag team wrestling. They have a singles run. Bully Ray,
did Matt Jeff have both done that? Christian and Edge
obviously you have done that. Santana doing. Is he surprising
you with how he's doing and how he's coming across
because it is tough to shed the notion that you're

(46:10):
one half of something and be seen as a true
centerpiece act that you should pay to see in a
world title defense? What are the pros and consolet what
you've seen with Santana and his journey in TNA.

Speaker 3 (46:21):
I think what TNA has really done is a nice
job of using video packages to really get into the
mindset and dig deep into who Mike Santana is. So
that has really set him up to be a three
dimensional character in TNA, and you don't see a lot
of that unfortunately in professional wrestling, and that has helped.
I think that the fan reaction from NXT fans when

(46:45):
he's shown up at the performance center has forced WWE
brass to take notice. I know that there's rumors that
WWE is now interested in Mike Santana whenever his contract
is up with TNA. I think that's probably the highest
compliment that could be paid in this NXT TNA relationship
that we're seeing bear out. But yeah, I think Santana

(47:07):
has gone a lot further than I expected when he
and Ortez broke up and he comes to TNA as
a singles wrestler and it's like, yeah, okay, it's kind
of a prove it to me type of thing, and
he has done that, and then some his promos have
been really good.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
He has this viner packages early on a couple of
years ago, yeah, or was maybe just last year where
he showed up and it was just like all right,
and it seemed like he had a real hand in it.
I've got a story to tell, I've got this character.
I think it's going to connect with people. And those
video packages really I think sent a message early on
telling fans and TNA, this isn't just gonna be half
of a tag team moves here to work upper mid card.

(47:42):
There's something else going on here.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
And the other thing that video packages do is it's
time spent, valuable time spent. And when fans get the
impression that a company is spending time on you, even
if it's in video packages, that gives the impression that
you are someone that fans need to watch out for.
And so Santana has has done a fantastic job. He

(48:05):
carries himself like a major star. He has that street cred,
that kind of Samoa Joe level. He's gonna beat here,
you know what type of thing, and I think that
is very valuable as well in a a company that
doesn't have a lot of that. You know, that's that
attitude stands out in TNA.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
He also has something that Hangman has, which is and
I experienced this just in person. I was like, you know,
just kind of standing as to me, was walking through
the crowd to the ring, going through the crowd, and
he was the in a way that the fans kind
of anointed Hangman to be the guy. And when the
storyline is going on as he heel is he going
through stuff, and fants like which front Hangman back? We
just want to cheer this guy. He's he is our

(48:45):
pick to be the quarterback of this brand. And Santana
carries himself that way too. He did he does on camera,
but even when the tapings ended, he was the guy
in the ring thinking the fans are coming, you know,
really being coming across as a locker room leader and
a leader of the brand. And that's an intangible that
is valuable and I think has an impact on fans

(49:06):
when they sense that.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Yeah. Absolutely, And so yeah, I've been I've been impressed
with what he's brought to the table, and to be honest,
it's surprised me a little bit in a positive way.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, so you expect him to win? What does that
do to Trick Williams. How have you felt Trick has done.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
I mean, Trick has done a nice job kind of
getting under the skin of TNA wrestlers and TNA fans.
Is a heel here, it does kind of feel like
they're prepping him for a main roster run at some point,
and you know, him as TNA champion kind of gives
him something meaningful to do. It allows him to work
on being a heel since he was a babyface for

(49:44):
a lot of his NXT run leading up to the
heel turn that took place, and you know, it's getting
him experience against different types of wrestlers. So it's it's
the NXT talent, but it's also the TNA talent that
he's wrestling as champion and as close today as going
from territory to territory that you used to do, or

(50:04):
being an indie wrestler on your own and wrestling all
over the country when you're in a major company like this,
and that those opportunities are not afforded to you. Wrestling
people like Uh Santana or whomever in another company is
the closest you're gonna get and and you got to
learn from that.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yeah, Uh so the women's title TENNA knockouts World title
on the line, Kline Jordan defending against Indie Heartwell, how
is Indie different in TNA than she was in WWE
in terms of how she's being presented and how she's
presenting herself. The fans are with her? Yeah, talk about

(50:45):
for especially for people who are listening to us but
have been paying attention to TNA, because TNA is, you know,
the fourth fourth brand. I guess out there, you know,
ahead of r H, but I think behind an XT
and the main roster to be and aw in terms
of just how many people are watching it and invested
in it. Talk about Indy.

Speaker 3 (51:04):
I think the one thing that Indy had going for
her in WWE is she had a lot stronger opponents
in terms of just from a talent perspective that we're
able to kind of hide some of her weaknesses a
little bit. Her strength has never been in the ring.
It's been, you know, being a part of the way

(51:24):
with Johnny Gargano and Candice Larray and kind of being
the little the daughter with them or the stuff with
Dexter Loomis stands out as something interesting, and she does
have that kind of appealing quality that makes people like her.
She has that likability, but in TNA, her in ring

(51:45):
has really been exposed against a weaker set of opponents,
I think, and that's where she struggled. It doesn't seem
like she has the confidence she had in WWE. She's
not getting the same amount of outside the ring focus
that she got in NX. So I think you're right.
The fans are still with her because she comes across
as someone who is very personable and very likable and

(52:07):
very down to earth, and I think that helps. But
from an interring standpoint, you're not seeing that advancement. In fact,
I think she's kind of taken a step back.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
A little bit. Clinie Jordan, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (52:19):
You know, I think she and Jada Parker are two
of my favorites in NXT right now, and I think
they have real main roster promise. I thought it was
an interesting choice to make her TNA champion and then
captain of the TNA Women's team this past Tuesday, given
her allegiance and her stronger ties to NXT. Certainly, but

(52:40):
you know, I think this there's a glut of women
in NXT right now, and very talented women, and it's
hard to stand out from the pack, and so this
allows her a little time to kind of breathe on
her own. Granted it's in TNA, but it does give
her something else to do. And I do think she
is talented enough to where she deserves some level of

(53:00):
focus that maybe she wasn't getting an NXT because there
were so many miles to feed, so to speak.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Yeah, yep, you don't have to wait for the way
Keller Prog Wrestling post show to find out what I
thought of Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you
can check out my reports that are updated live throughout
Raw and SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report
will tell you what's happening in detail in case you

(53:27):
missed the show, and it'll also analyze key segments and
give my random thoughts quips on what I am watching
as it airs. So check it out every Monday night
and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also applies
to WWE pay perviews. I cover those live at pw
torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
and of course you can find other TV reports from

(53:49):
other contributors to PW Torch such as NXT, roh, Impact Wrestling,
and more. Check it out pwtorch dot com, your first
stop for TV and pay per view written reports. All right,
so on this lineup, I'm not gonna run down all

(54:11):
the matches, but what else stands out here that you're
looking forward to or you find peculiar?

Speaker 6 (54:18):
Like?

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Do do you like the undercard for Does this feel
like an undercard worthy of the Bound for Glory name,
which is, you know, TN a signature show.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
It does in a way because you know, they brought
Javon Evans over from NXT. They have obviously we talked
about Colonie Jordan that they have. They've got Trick Williams here,
so there is a bit of an NXT flavor to
this that makes it feel bigger than maybe a normal
pay per view.

Speaker 4 (54:46):
You know.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
The rest of the undercard, I can't say it really
jumps out to me as being Bound for Glory worthy,
And I think part of that is just the kind
of distraction that this TNA versus NXT war has become
and so much of the focus being on Tuesdays. You know,
the storyline that they ran with the TNA versus NXT

(55:07):
battle and now, okay, now we have to flip real
quick and do our hard cell for Bond for Glory.
One of the the more interesting undercard matches I think
is Tesla Blanchard versus GM Miller. Gia has not been
presented as a wrestler, although she's been trained as a wrestler.
She's a backstage interviewer in TNA. Tessa Blanchard attacked her
a couple of pay per views ago, and Blanchard was

(55:30):
storyline suspended for that. But I wrote in A Parks's
take on pw tors dot com recently, you know, the
the lack of Tesla Blanchard in this NXT versus TNA
battle has been glaring just because she is probably far
and away the most talented women's wrestler in TNA and
one of the bigger names. She's a former TNA World

(55:50):
Heavyweight Champion, not Women's champion, World heavyweight champion, and so
for her to not be involved in any way in
this NXT TNA battle stands out. And I know she's
got a checkered past where you know, accusations of racism,
and the fans and TNA pay per views have kind
of taunted her with your racist chance, and I'm sure

(56:11):
NXT doesn't want to put her on live TV and
a risk of their fans chanting that same thing at
her and have to answer questions about that. So I
don't know if it's just that, I don't know if
they're just they don't want to use her because they
don't want to be involved in that drama. But it's
a shame because she is incredibly talented and I think
it would be really fun to see her work with

(56:32):
a lot of the NXT talent, but at this point
it's not to be.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Yeah, So overall strong Bound for Glory lineup, how does
it compare to Passbound for Glories and how does it
compare to the other pls on either side of it, Wrestle,
Dream and Crundle.

Speaker 3 (56:52):
I think it compares more favorably than it normally would
because a lot of the key matches on the you know,
we talked about Johnsen and aj Style being sort of
an unexpected a major match and Samojo being sort of
an unexpected challenger to Adam Page. I don't think they
appear to be super strong on top on those shows
right now, which allows Bond for Glory to look a

(57:15):
little better than it does. But in terms of stacking
it against previous Bond for Glories and knowing that Bond
for Glory is really one of the big two in
TNA along with Slammiversary, it doesn't feel like that to me.
But I think it all depends on the main event,
and if Mike Santana brings that TNA title home to

(57:35):
TNA defeats Trick Williams, I think that's the big crowning
moment that TNA is going for there, and it's going
to be a very pro raw raw TNA type feel
at the end of the show. That might make up
a little bit for a rather uninspired undercard. Other than that,
you know, Javon Evans, Leon Slater, you got two of
the best young high flyers in the game. I think

(57:58):
that's that has the potential to be a show's dealer.
And but that's really other than maybe the Hardy's versus
Team three D, that's really the only undercard match that
that stands out to me is something that feels really special.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, I mean there's a couple of gimmicky matches to
call your seat. Gauntlin and the intergender Hardcore war where
just a bunch of people will be on the show
and that'll you know, take shape. But yeah, all right,
let's uh, let's shift to the don Kalis family. You
wrote about it this week this week's Person Torch cover story,
Person Torche Newshutter cover stories about how Tony conn I

(58:30):
think it's put together a nice no add some matches,
but a good wrestled dream line up with some key
pieces missing and unavailable with in you know, with Warlow
being hurt, and then you have uh swerve out and
aust Bray out. Will see what happens with Omega. You
got Orange, Cassie back and Eddie Eddie Kingston back hasn't
really haven't had a real big impact. I mean know

(58:51):
Cassidy headline dynamite sort of. He was like the fourth
guy listed on the graphic but in the in the
final match on Tuesday. But it is it's so it's
it's a it's a solid lineup, but on the baby
face side of things are depleted. On the heels side,
almost every heal in the company is with Don Challis
right now, and so you've got the you know, obviously

(59:11):
it's temporary with Daqushta, there's some injuries there with with
Wardlow in Brian Cage, so they're not at full strength
in that way. But tell me why you decided to
write about them? And yeah, kind of, I mean, like,
you know, VFP members can hear the full column, but
maybe give a little bit of some key talking points
from how you approach that.

Speaker 3 (59:32):
Well, we had come off the episode of Dynamite where
the don Kallis family added two new members and it
was already a big group and then they add two
more and I'm like, I just sat there thinking what
are they going for here? Like, what is what is
the purpose of this? What is the end game with this?
And and that's kind of the inspiration for the column.
And those are some questions that I asked in the column.

(59:55):
Is is there a larger purpose to this besides just
you know, haphazardly putting heels with don Kallas for whatever reason,
whether it's because you think callous will get heat for
them or whatever. Is there a larger purpose at player?
We seeing the development of a sort of an an
underlying storyline that's about to burst at some point that

(01:00:17):
we just don't see. It's not obvious to us. I
think there's potential for that I think it's probably unlikely,
but I can't rule it out. But then it's like, okay,
so what is the endgame? So you know, there's a
lot of and I also took a look at some
of the criticisms that were out there that I had
seen on social media of the don Kallis family and
Don Callus himself, you know, like that he he isn't

(01:00:40):
able to transfer the heat to his wrestlers, or he's
not going to be No one's going to be able
to get come uppance on him because he's not He
doesn't get physical in the ring. So I kind of
made arguments for and against those arguments in my column
and just said, okay, you know, it could be to
Keshta turning on Okada and then don Kallis family focusing

(01:01:02):
their energies on taking out the newly baby faced Ta Gueshta.
But we've already seen that story with Will Osprey. We've
seen Osprey leave the don Kallis family and have Don
Callis use everything everyone he has at his disposal there
against Osprey. How differently can you tell that story? And
how many times can you tell that story with wrestlers

(01:01:22):
that eventually leave the Callous Family and turned babyface. So,
you know, a lot that I wrote about related to
the Callous Family and looking at it from both a
big picture point of view as well as really zeroing
in on some of the smaller item ideas that could
be out there about why the Don Callus family is
as big as it is. And I made some comparisons

(01:01:43):
to the nWo. I think that those comparisons the more
I thought about them and the more I wrote about them,
the more they became clear to me. Hopefully it doesn't
have the same kind of ending as the nWo did
where it just sort of splits Heir, Peter's Out or
whatever the case is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
And factions. There's factions of big history and professional wrestling,
and I mean like scandorac Bars Devastation Incorporated and World
Class CHAMPIONSIP pressing It, Paul Jones's Army. I'm thinking people
who remind me more of of Gary Hart in terms
of having a kind of a motley crew of secondary people.
Like the NBA is so built and I think there's

(01:02:23):
definitely comparisons there, but so built around like these pillars,
so to speak, at the at the very top, and
then they've kind of had all these appendages and and
in Uh. I think with Don Challis he sort of
have that with Okada, though you should have it more
with Okada, like he's not really presented as as big
of a deal as I think people who followed his

(01:02:43):
career with.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Well, I'm not sure there's that one person who's portrayed
as the standout in the Kallis family. I mean, maybe
Kyle Fletcher at this point right now. But you know,
as you said, the nWo had there was a clear delineation.
It was Hall, Nash Hogan and then kind of you
had a second tier and then you know you had
the nWo Black and White and you know, Brian Adams

(01:03:06):
and guys like that. I'm not sure beyond Kyle Fletcher,
if there's a real clear delineation within the Callous family.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Yeah, And so I think with with the Don KALs family,
there's Bobby Heenan family aspects, there's Scanner Rakbar, there's Paul
uh Uh, the Paul Jones, Paul Jones's army. I always
like how what they add to the end of the
family army devastation in corporated it is there. I don't
mind having multiple factions in one territory or company or

(01:03:38):
promotion at a time where you have kind of a
primary manager like Bobby Heenan at the top, and then
you have some secondary managers who sort of give fill
in some weaknesses because of the credibility of the manager,
his talking ability or the vibe. You know, Devastation Incorporated
was Camala and Missing Link. It was like these these
you know, uh people who wouldn't it necessarily in other

(01:04:02):
being managed by other people like Cary Heart was manager
back in the World Last two and I think Don
Kellis is understandably so comparisons to him just kind of
the bald head in the look. Are you a fan

(01:04:23):
of AW looking to sit back, relax and listen to
some like minded podcasters who share your passion.

Speaker 6 (01:04:29):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking? Do you want to join a discussion on
what AW is doing right and what they could do
to improve? Then join me Joel and me Greg for
the All of the Conversation Club every Friday on the
PW Torch live cast. Fee search PW Torch in your
podcast app and subscribe to PW Torch Daily Cast or

(01:04:52):
stream our shows directly from PW torch dot com. Find
full details on the PW Torch Daily Cast lineup at
PW torch Daily Cast.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
So I guess this goes around. This goes around to
what is the identity of the don Kallis family besides
the comparisons we're making, like in an ideal situation over
the next looking back at the history of it, where
it is now, but also ideally where it goes. What
is the identity of the don Kellis family is? For instance,

(01:05:31):
is it someone who takes established stars like Ocatta and
is the the say American but the Canadian voice the
English voice for him taking care of the managerial duties.
Or is it a guy who is good at taking
people to the next level, like Takeshta Kyle Fletcher. They're
not really telling that story, Josh Alexander. Others are just

(01:05:54):
sort of you know, hangers on, you know, the sort
of six or x poc you know that comes with it.
What is what is the identity of it or where
would you steer it to have a more defined identity.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
Yeah, your question sort of hinted at the answer that
they don't really have a defined identity, and I agree
with that. No, that's true. You know, when Don Kellis
addresses this when he's on commentary, he just kind of
vaguely refers to wanting to accumulate as much power within

(01:06:28):
AEW as he can and taking top stars and maybe
even not so top stars and bringing them into his
orbit is his way of trying to accumulate that power.
Now what does he want that power for? Is it money?
Is it? You know, that's still kind of unanswered. So
that's one thing that I would like clarity on, because

(01:06:50):
there really isn't any rhyme or reason why Callous is
collecting these particular wrestlers. And that's what I would like
a little bit more clarity and a little bit more
explanation on, just so it doesn't feel like this mishmash
of random heel wrestlers that just all happen to be

(01:07:10):
associated with Don Kallis.

Speaker 1 (01:07:13):
That's one of my issues with AW in general is
I don't think there's enough depth, layering granular detail to
a lot of things that they do. It's one of
my critiques of like Brian Danielson on commentary, like I
want him to bring more to it, more substance and
not just sort of well, I'm just Brian Danielson. I'm
watching the matches with you, and I have some things
I can add here in there, like a sense of

(01:07:35):
purpose in what that's in a been consistent with Don
Kallis is saying that I think you should get more
TV time if he's going to be the top manager,
and he should be on television with his faction together
more often. So it doesn't feel so disjointed. But I
think the main thing is what you just said, what
talk more. He needs to talk more in the announcers

(01:07:55):
need to talk more, and his wrestlers and his frankly
opposing wrestlers need to talk more about why beating his
wrestlers is so satisfying and also why are wrestlers with
somebody who says obnoxious and annoying as him? And it
shouldn't be the meta of well, he's a good talker
and managers are meant to be obnoxious and good talkers
and that's how wrestling works. Yeah, but you have to

(01:08:16):
bring it to the storyline aspect. If this were real.
You know, Jim Cornett took care of Dennis Condrey and
Bobby's all of their all of their flights and negotiated contracts.
But he also is just a nerd, a non athlete
with a rich mom who paid him to live out
his fantasy of having a wrestler's bump for him. That
was his story. Bobby Heenan was the brain, Paul Hayman

(01:08:37):
the oracle, the wise man, the advocate, you know what
he does. Kallus just sort of feels like some to
me too. He's too close to just sort of a
cost playing a generic Gary Hart Paul Gones secondary manager.
And I'm just going to be sort of annoying but
not really take things seriously. And I'm gonna throw an
insider comment now and then to pop people in the

(01:08:58):
back on the headsets. I want there to be more
to him. So we have like this because I think
it's in him. I just don't think either he can
be bothered or it's crossed his mind to do it,
or the infrastructure is there to encourage it and build
on it. But what does he bring not platitudes, not cliches?
What does he bring to Kyle Fletcher besides a guy
who's breaking about him? What are we to believe he's

(01:09:20):
actually doing to help Kyle Fletcher or why is Okada
of all people associating with him, And I don't think
it crosses their mind to really hone in on that
and emphasize that point. And it's one of the weaknesses
with AW. It's a lot of things that just feel
sort of half baked and derivative, that are just sort
of impersonating things from the past or emulating things from

(01:09:41):
the past, but without that foundation and that layering and
granular detail that I think makes it more effective.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Yeah. Absolutely, I like Don Kallas. All of this being said,
I like him. He's very good at what he does.

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
I don't spend as much time talking about and advocating
for him if we didn't think it was.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
In him right right, and he is a as talented
a performer probably as AW has. We would I think,
you know, I don't want to speak for you, but
I think we would both argue that we would like
to see more depth to that character and more depth
to what he is doing for these wrestlers that he manages.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Yeah, there's so many people who show up in a
who are on AWTV who I don't think are putting
a lot of thought into what they're going to do
on that week's TV until a couple hours before they're
given the booking sheet and hit like, okay, you got
a segment. And I can tell I feel that way
about Danielson's commentary. I hold him ye standards because he's
so talenty, has so much to give, and aw needs that,

(01:10:39):
like especially needs that right now. They need everybody to
be giving a better effort I think to preparing and
elevating their game, and I think Kellis has the pieces
to make that work. And you know, some people are
just like, eh, you know, it's Morgan for Tony Kahan,
and we just want to collect our paycheck and go

(01:11:00):
tobout our lives and it. You know, we're not really
rewarded for it. We're all on, you know, kind of
get we get paid. We're gonna get paid, and I
mean fine, I mean that's an excuse for it. But
from the outside looking in the product. And there are
some exceptions, by the way, with some some some wrestlers
where you're like, Okay, you know, sometimes MGF puts too
much thought into what he's doing. And and I don't
really have complaints about Hangman Page. You know, right now,

(01:11:21):
in his current incarnation, you know, Christian just doing phenomenal work.
I could I'm randomly selecting it. So there's you know,
people who are an exception, but there's others who feel
kind of like underachievers. So maybe maybe you know this
with all the people in the Donkels from in the
TV time, it's getting it actually will get more booking
attention and not just sort of kind of being thrown

(01:11:43):
out there when it seems like we're going to do something.
We're going to do something with him now, you know,
we need him to carry a segment or two, make
it consistent where there's this overreaching arc within a w
mm hmm. All right, let's shift back to w W.
Let's talk about the Crown Jewel lineup, and we talked

(01:12:04):
about Johnson and aj Styles. Roman raigns in Bronson Reed
Australian Street Fight. Don't really know what it is. I
don't think they've explained it yet, uh, but we uh
it seems as if it's pretty obvious finished Roman should
beat Bronson. But I think they think highly of Bronson Reid.
I don't think they just want to feed him to

(01:12:25):
him to lose decisively. But maybe, I mean, Roman's a
top star. But Reid is an every week guy who
they've you know, clearly are pretty high on. How do
you feel about him or how do you feel about
this match?

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
I think it'll be good. I think it's you know,
this Australian street fight is is a good stipulation for
this point in the feud. You know, Reid has had
the opportunity to get built up while Rains has been
off TV in terms of this monster that you want
to see Rains take down a notch, you know, part
of the seth Rollins crew here. So I think they've

(01:12:59):
they've done it a decent enough job with this that
I think people are Roman Rerains is that special attraction
now and his matches are going to get a lot
of attention and they're going to get a lot of focus,
as they should. And so to use the match like
this on Bronson Reid coming off of they they just

(01:13:20):
have a match with the last pay per view was
it or was it a tag match? Trying to remember?
So it was that was against the USOS. Okay, So yeah,
this is I think this is a good match for
this point in the feud. You know, we've seen Reid
steal the shoes from Roman Rains and have a little
fun with him doing that, and it's probably time for

(01:13:42):
Roman Rains to get his revenge.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
I agree, And I think this is a match that's,
you know, part of a larger art going on with
Roman's role in his interactions with Paul Hayman, but also
the Yeah Jay especially and the dynamic of Jane Jimmy
talking talk about that because I don't I don't have
a handle on what I think they're they're doing here

(01:14:06):
and where how we're supposed to feel about how Roman
is acting, how Jimmy is acting. I think they I
think I know how they want us feel about Jay,
which is sort of mixed feelings, like you know, what's
he up to? But are we supposed to be siding
more with Roman telling Jimmy stay out of Jay's way?
Or are wet Are we supposed to think maybe Roman
is being a bit of a jerk or or has
a big head and Jimmy's the sympathetic one. What do

(01:14:28):
you think is going on here?

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Yeah, the baby faces on Raw of late have really
struggled with their inner demons. You know, it's it's Jay
and Jimmy, It's La Night and attacking the usos and
then you know, having trouble with CM Punk and Punk
having trouble with La Night as a baby face. So
it's it's something going around, maybe something in the food
backstage with the baby face, I don't know, but uh,

(01:14:50):
they they've really struggled with their emotions and with their
inner turmoil. I guess you could call it. So this
it feels like maybe not necessarily a way to reform
the bloodline, but it does make me wonder if you know,
we've got Survivor series coming up that's going to be
war Games again, is Rain's going to have to try

(01:15:13):
to rein in Jay and Jimmy to get a partner
to to face Seth Rollins and Bronson Red and bron Breaker.
Are those guys going to be the subject and the
focus of the War Games match in November? I'm wondering
if this story with Rains and the Uses is sort

(01:15:34):
of building to them trying to get on the same
page for that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
Is Roman spending too much time in this in kind
of a you know, we're talking about the Cody vers
and a w we've got sort of the Moxley verse.
You know, he's always kind of working with his friends
and people. He likes Hobbs, he likes standing, Garcia Likesweether
you to obviously and Claudia go way back. Is Roman?
Is this too too much of the same and it'd
be better for him to be branching out and working

(01:16:01):
with new people or does Bronson read sort of count
even though Bronson read is he's new, He's he's part
of the same realm with Hayman right now, but he's
also new, so maybe that that mitigates it a little
bit compared to just because like I just recorded the
intro for the five years Ago SmackDown that's dropping on
our Red Logo show tonight, and it's like one of

(01:16:22):
the topics is Roman reigns and jay Uso is intriguing
interactions and I'm like, oh wait, this can't be always y. Yeah,
there's most five years ago this week. I mean, it's
just the same thing happened. I mean a lot of
things can be interesting five years later with the same people.
But are they succeeding or would you like to see
Roman do some work with some other people.

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
No, I'm fine with it. I think a deep, in depth,
multi year layered story is good. It's a good thing. Now,
it's just because something is multi year and layered doesn't
automatically make it good. But this one, by and large
has been and it just it feels different, the way
the story is being told, the way the the ties

(01:17:01):
are bound here between Rains and the USO's, and so
I think it's been more effective than not, and so
I don't mind them coming back to it. It also
gives the characters a lot more depth, and you know,
being three dimensionals what we talked about earlier. I think
having an emphasis on coming back to this storyline the

(01:17:25):
way that they seem to be doing right now, it
actually helps these characters. So, yes, we're kind of in
a state right now where we're not sure maybe how
we're supposed to feel about these characters. I would expect
that to be fleshed out over the next few weeks.
If we're sitting here two months from now and we're
still saying I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel
abut these characters, and then that's the problem. But I

(01:17:45):
think it's a good thing for Rains to continue. I mean,
it makes sense to continue working with these guys. They're
his family, he has a sense of I think he
feels as a character a sense of responsibility to look
out for them as well, maybe a sense of guilt
for how he treated them when he was the tribal

(01:18:06):
chief and he was champion for two or three years
or whatever it was, and maybe that comes into play.
Now I'm reading a lot into that. It would be
nice if WWE was a little bit more outward, if
that was where they wanted us to go with that.
But I'd have no problems with him continuing to intermingle
with sort of the same major players, because you know,
you point out Bronson Reid is kind of new. I

(01:18:28):
think they might be building to a big Roman Reigns
versus Brown Breaker match at some point. Certainly Roman Reigns
versus Seth Rollins big match there as well, so I'm
looking forward to seeing that develop.

Speaker 1 (01:18:43):
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Let's dive into Cody and Seth. Greg. You talk about

(01:19:26):
baby faces kind of going at each other a little
bit here, we have a clear heel face dynamic. It's
you know, there's been too much of, I think this
year with paulavec of having baby faces in a position
where fans were compromised. We've seen that with cmpunk, Rhea
Ripley l ll see mpunk at All a Night specifically,

(01:19:49):
but Ria Ripley in the WrestleMania build. There's a lot
of that going on. So with Cody and Seth. Now,
fans are going to be rooting for Cody, but they've
injected this. I don't know if it made tests empathetic,
but Paul Hayman going if you lose, I'm going to
question whether I should have aligned with you in the
first place, it's like, whoa, It almost guarantees. I don't know,
maybe it's too much Seth winning, but maybe there's a

(01:20:10):
big story arc of him losing and things disintegrating. I
think there's a possibility of that. So yeah, what do
you think of the bill of Cody Seth Are? Is
it good for Cody at this stage? Just have this
instead of John Cena situation where fans are kind of
having to choose and rationalize who they're gonna cheer for
or what. What do you think about this?

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
Yeah, I definitely think this is better. Cody has a
baby face and undisputed WWE champion going against Seth Rollins
World Heavyweight Champion. You know, it's good on good and
so best on best. I think that's really cool to see.
At this point the Crown Jeweled Championship is on the line,

(01:20:53):
for whatever that's worth. But I think there it is
a nice time to have kind of the alphas on
both brands face to face say hey, you know, just
lay it down right in the middle of the ring,
who's the better champion? Who's better right now? Cody Rose
or Seth Rollins. So I like the mic work they've
done back and forth. I think it's been really strong,

(01:21:15):
And you mentioned the intrigue about Seth Rollins and his
relationship with Paul Hayman moving forward after this match, and
you've seen Seth Rollins sort of blankly stare out into
space talking about how he must beat Cody Rhodes. Obviously
this has gotten to him and so it's going to
be interesting to see how he reacts in this match.

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
Stephanie Er Tiffany Stratton, another champ versus champ match, just
like Cody and Seth. What do you what do you
think here?

Speaker 3 (01:21:46):
You know, certainly Stephanie v Kaerr is one of my
favorites right now in WWE. I think it's going to
be a bit of a test for Tiffany Stratton because
the Care is far and away the better entering performer
right now than Tiffany Stratton. That's not to say that
Stratton can't get there at some point. So this is
kind of a test to see where Stratton is as

(01:22:08):
far as an entering talent. And it's a good spotlights
for Stephanie va Care. You know, going against someone who
WWE obviously is high on in Stratton is a big
test for her too. What level can she get Stratton
up to in? This match? Is going to be something
to watch and so definitely intriguing. Definitely, I don't think

(01:22:31):
there's a clear winner here. I would not surprise me
if there was some outside interference. I know that's completely
unheard of today in WWE, but it would not surprise
me if the finish was less than clean for this one.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
What do you think would be the best strategy to
get Stephanie v a care in the mix in terms
of being able to tell her story and be part,
because I mean, WW is not just look the part
and have good matches. You've got to be able to
contribute to the weekly TV shows to make people want
to see your matches beyond the initial presence and aura
you have and the bell to bell action that you present.

(01:23:08):
And you know that's something a you know, number of
a w wrestlers face that they were, you know, big
in New Japan, big in the indie scenes. Suddenly you
drop them into this new situation, which is a whole
different job description. It's like, you've got to be a
compelling person week to week, able to talk on the microphone,
act show a range of emotions as you are. You know,
given hurdles and to leap over in hoops to jump

(01:23:31):
through How where is Stephanie vakaerr in that in that realm?
Or is she special enough You can actually kind of
work around her limitations as far that she's had so far,
including that contract signing that they just had where it
was you know, kind of clunky. Her syntax on her
wording was wrong. Tiffany was her usual self, not being
you know, great great verbally. How do you imagine vicare

(01:23:51):
being best utilized.

Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
I do like the WWE is not afraid to put
her out there, despite you know, English not being her
first language. You know, she's out there and sometimes she
struggles a little bit. But I think in some ways
that's an endearing quality to the fans. I think WWE
for a very long time overestimated how important it is
to speak clearly and speak, you know, in a way

(01:24:20):
that people will understand one hundred percent. I think sending
someone out there like Vecer or even you know, we're
seeing it with Eosky, we're seeing it with Oscar, I
think they can still contribute on the mic, even if
it is not in the traditional mic work, standing out

(01:24:41):
there and cutting a ten minute promo or going face
to face with someone. I think there are certain endearing
qualities when you're seeing someone kind of going through struggles
and learning the English language in real time on TV.
I think that can actually get you over with a
certain percentage of the fan base. And so I don't
see it as a detriment the way that WWE historically

(01:25:03):
has That said, I think I would keep her away
from certain segments that that back and forth to Tiffany
Stratton is a good example. You know, maybe there are
certain types of talking segments you want to lean into
for someone like that, and certain types of talking segments
that you want to stay away from. And so, yeah,
I don't see it as a huge hinderance. I think

(01:25:28):
there are She has so much other stuff going for
her positively that I think that's something that, you know,
not being able to cut a promo like Becky Lynch
or like Rhea Ripley is something that fans of hers
can overlook it. It seems like they have to this point.

Speaker 1 (01:25:46):
Uh, is Tiffany going to a year from now be
remarkably better in areas that she's weak? Does it not
matter because she'll be just fine or otherwise?

Speaker 3 (01:25:57):
Gosh, I don't know, honestly, Like if you had asked
me this a year ago, I would have said, Yeah,
she's gonna be tremendously better, she's gonna have you know,
she's going to improve exponentially. And you know, at this point,
I don't know that she She's maybe her opponents and

(01:26:19):
the level of her opponents have not done her any favors.
You know, she's had some matches with the Jade Cargill,
She's had someone with Naya Jacks, who are not two
of the easiest opponents to work with on SmackDown. So
maybe that's been a part of it. But I just
haven't seen the level of improvement over the last year
that I think I expected. And that's not just in
the ring that's on the mic. I think she even

(01:26:41):
did a interview recently where she's still kind of like
finding her character and finding herself as a babyface. And so, yeah,
I don't know. I don't know if I'm as bullish
on Tiffany Stretton's future as I was maybe a year ago.
I think WWE is still behind her, which is a
positive for her. They're going to give her that time

(01:27:02):
to figure it out. But I don't know where I
am on her right now.

Speaker 1 (01:27:08):
Just finally Rhea and Eo teaming up against Oscar and Kyrie.
How you felt about the way the story has been told.
It's some similar issues with with the care in terms
of WWW finding creative ways to present them and their
interactions with each other where English isn't the primary language.
They've certainly made clear each of their roles, you know,

(01:27:31):
I mean we had we know quite a bit about
Osca and her kind of domineering, bossy ways as as
a mentor, and and EO Sky very sympathetic, Kyrie just
anxious in how this is all playing out, and then definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:27:49):
To subordinate in that relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
Yeah, so what are the pros and cons of the
build to this match? And then it's the last match
we haven't talked about here, So what do you expect
to see here? What are some key things that could
come out of it?

Speaker 3 (01:28:02):
I've really enjoyed it. What I hope doesn't happen is
EO Sky turns heel and joins Oscar and Kyrie sane.
In another era of WWE, that probably would have been
the outcome to this, but I think she's just so
strong as a top Babyface, and this storyline I think
has played out really well. You know, getting Ria Ripley involved,
I think has made it feel more important because fans

(01:28:22):
still see her as a huge star. You know, there
is some risk of having Ripley overshadow EO in this match,
or overshadow her in this storyline. I think it's happened yet.
I think in actuality, it helps Eo have a friend
and have someone that she could lean on in this
very trying time for her. She just lost both of
her best friends they turned on her. It is nice

(01:28:44):
to see a babyface have other babyface friends that are
willing to step up and help them out again. In
another era of WWE, that might not necessarily have been
the case. As you said, their roles in this storyline,
from Oscar to Saying to Eosky to Ree Ripley are
very well defined and very well developed. I think I

(01:29:04):
think the turn was really effective, even if it was
something that we probably saw coming at some point, and
I've really enjoyed this. I think this is really going
to be a cool match. I think having Eo Sky
opposite Oscar and Kyrie Sane is going to be very
unique from an inn ring standpoint, and I'm excited to
see how they pull this off.

Speaker 4 (01:29:23):
I'm Chris Maitland, I'm Justin McClelland we host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast on independent wrestling.

Speaker 9 (01:29:29):
Every week, Christ and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 4 (01:29:35):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us at Torchcoast to
Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue Sky
at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 9 (01:29:44):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 4 (01:29:47):
Find the show on your PW torch daily Cast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 9 (01:29:55):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
And then just my final question to you is just
how have you felt about how the nxt T and
A dynamic has worked for both companies? Because we saw
the big the Big showdown yeah on Tuesday, so it's
a timely topic here. Just yeah, what do you think
has worked? And are there winners and losers?

Speaker 3 (01:30:18):
It's certainly felt like a climax to this relationship. Obviously
it's not over. It's not ending with that showdown event
on Tuesday Night. I think TNA has has gained quite
a bit. I think their their numbers have gone up
and they've benefited from the association with n NEXT. Anytime
a smaller organization gets to rub elbows with a larger organization,

(01:30:41):
it's going to help that smaller organization get their name
out there and just be viewed by a larger audience,
and so that's helpful. We've heard Carlos Silva, TNA president,
talk about how he's expecting a new TV deal in
twenty twenty six that's going to get TNA potentially more
eyeballs in a bigger network than they're currently on, which

(01:31:01):
of course would be great for them. But just having
even if it's for bad reasons, like WWE's partnership with TNA,
you can argue it's to keep wrestler wages down or
to kind of stunt the growth of AEW is the
number two brand to try to get TNA a bigger
TV deal and sort of block AEW. You know, WWE

(01:31:24):
is certainly not doing this out of the goodness of
their hearts, but even then, I think it has benefited
TNA and some some tangible and some intangible ways. I think,
you know, it probably looks bad to a certain percentage
of the fans when you have so many NXT wrestlers
holding TNA titles. I think there's probably a percentage of
the TNA fan base that's going to be turned off

(01:31:44):
by that. And I think those who are skeptical of
the TNA NXT relationship are probably going to use that
as a reason of why it's it's not benefiting TNA
in the way that some others may see it as
benefiting them and really like it. Kind of it does
freshen up NXT a little bit, although having TNA wrestlers

(01:32:05):
on NXT means there's less TV time for an already
bloated NXT roster. I mean, you think about how many
wrestlers they have at the performance center that aren't getting
TV time because Joe Hendry is and and others are.
I wonder kind of what that does to morale And
knowing that guys like Joe Hendry and Mike Santana and
even earlier Jordan Grace are being signed and potentially taking

(01:32:28):
the place of NXT wrestlers, and so what does that
do to morale in NXT. I think that's a fair
question to ask as well. But you know, from a
fans standpoint, I think it's been kind of fun. It's
it certainly hasn't changed the game in any way, but
it doesn't need to. I don't think for the for

(01:32:49):
this level of brand, you know, and it's not ww's
main roster or anything like that. But it's been fun
and I think it's given these TNA talents a little
bit more exposure, which I think is helpful and I've
i've buy and large enjoyed it. TNA got a victory
in the men's match on Tuesday, which is you know,

(01:33:12):
the the naysayers would have said that NXT would route
TNA in those two Survivor Series style elimination matches, but
TNA goes off the air on NXT television having won
the main events the men's elimination match. I think they're
playing it a lot closer to even than some would
have expected in terms of the relationship between TNA and XT,

(01:33:34):
even as NXC talents are holding TNA championships.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
I still in discos something he said, well, just wonder
what the endgame was. The initial inspiration, motivation, But then
kind of what's the end game because WWB doesn't want
to leave TNA independent and stronger and taking away from
their revenue streams or their their viewership numbers, or their
percentage of their their their share of the marketplace for

(01:34:02):
pro wrestling. So what what are they doing here trying
to keep them from growing? They want them to become
dependent on them or do they fear that if they
were to align with AW would hurt them? And then
in the end, you know, where does TNA as a
brand in a better off? There was, as you said,
enough respect paid to the brand that it's not a burial.

(01:34:26):
But obviously they don't want to show their hand in
a way where where it's just like, wait, what are
you guys doing to us?

Speaker 3 (01:34:30):
So it's still they've gotten They've gotten over on NXT
a lot more than wcw ever did on WWE.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
Yeah, for sure, I do.

Speaker 3 (01:34:38):
I do wonder if the endgame is WWE buying TNA.
You know, there's there's thoughts that when this relationship was
first forged that part of the deal was that WWE
would be kind of the first in line to buy
TNA after a certain amount of time, and so there's
the potential that that is the real endgame.

Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
And what are you buying a library, a trademark name,
a roster of wrestlers who you could pick off on
your own if you wanted them, and a one, two, three, four, five, six,
a seventh and eighth hour of weekly television that your
tooth that you're spread tooth in to really take advantage of. Like,

(01:35:20):
I know, people who watch the company every week think, oh,
you know, it's there's something there, But what is it
that they didn't even be buying from the perspective of
WWE I like and that I just don't know other
than the library, but that's not really a super valuable
thing because they have such a huge library. They're not
even monetizing right now.

Speaker 3 (01:35:39):
I think part of it depends on what network TNA
gets on next year and what kind of I mean
that could be something that WWE would be interested in
running and having TNA as a standalone brand potentially on
Wednesday nights against AW. We've seen WWEE it's kind of
a workerund a back door to try to take down AW.

(01:36:00):
You instead of going had to head the way they've
done with pay per views and other special events blocking
AW pay per views. This is kind of the workaround
to that. They don't want to put NXT on Wednesday
nights against Dynamite because it's going to cannibalize that audience.
But if they buy TNA and TNA just happens to
have a Wednesday night time slot, well they're going to
continue to run it. It's not their fault they you know,

(01:36:20):
they didn't try to go had to head with WW
or AW. Who's TNA, who did it? And now they
just happen to be in control of it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:29):
Yeah, and they don't even need to buy TNA to
have that work in their favor. You can have all
of that without buying them. You help their profile grow
enough that you get suitors interested in them who then
put them on Wednesday and it actually you get to
have NXT not have to be the bad guy in
the battle with AW. It's TNA. And even if TNA

(01:36:51):
loses TOW, WW doesn't feel humiliated or diminished because it's
not us. But they might pluck ten twenty thirty percent
away from a you or more and that hurts AW
and WOB then have to do anything other than do
some talent sharing for a couple of years.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:06):
Yeah, yeah, so we'll see Greg. Always a blast talking
and wrestling with you. Anything else you want to bring
up before we sign up?

Speaker 3 (01:37:13):
No, I think we covered a lot of good bases
here tonight.

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
Yeah. I enjoyed this a lot. I appreciate it. Thanks
everybody out there again, spread the word. Let people know
if you enjoy this show where they can find it
searching Weight Keller on podcast apps, and as always, you
can email us with any feedback or questions or topic suggestions.
Weight Keller Podcast at gmail dot com. Greg, looking forward
to your next column and next time that we do

(01:37:36):
a show together. Awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:37:37):
Thank you, Wade you back.

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
or comments. That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at petwtorch
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(01:38:40):
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