NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell discuss whether Cody's getting cheated out of proper earned spotlight, is WWE getting complacent or arrogant

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now p W Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade
Killer Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship
talking current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
All right, Jason, don't be keep her obvious top story
right now that I think we should start with, but
I'm gonna go with what is the future of Cody Rhodes?
And I asked that because it was really interesting last
night on Raw with Roman reigns, and I didn't explore
this lot on the way Keller Posho last night afterwards,
so I'm kind of itching to do it. Roman is
in the ring and he mentions Cody and the crowd booze,

(01:42):
and Roman pauses and goes interesting. Didn't really show his hand.
I think it was probably like his legitimate thought. He didn't,
you know, don't know how to wing it, wasn't sure
what he's supposed to do, so he just did that.
He didn't run to his defense at all. I am
and it's you know, it's an overseas crowd Birmingham, So
you know what does that mean? We I don't Sometimes
you don't want to re extrapolate more than you should

(02:03):
from it. But that's been sprinkled here and there, and
I'm I'm worried. Even though they would be supposed to
be the have this focus group every week that guides
what they do, I'm still concerned they're going to like
overreact to that. But then there was that video with
Cody in the car, and they could have shown them plugged.
Don't think they've done weekly plugs for w be unreal,

(02:24):
but they did it and they showed Cody in a car.
Go oh, look those those fans wearing Sena T shirts.
I'll wave at them. See I'm nice even to Sena fans.
And I was like, are they trying to make it
come across like how nice Cody is that he's gracious
enough to not be mad or he's not triggered by that,
or is this laying the foundation for him to go, Yeah,
I'm this good dude, and you guys cheered Sina when
he's trashing you, screw you to kind of whatever, you know,

(02:46):
be the trigger for him to turn. He'll say the
fans turned on him first, so I'm I'm intrigued. And
then the kind of third and final part of this
is also kind of angry at I mean, I'm not
angry really, but like I feel it, feel it. I
feel like we missed an opportunity for Cody to be
the uninterrupted alpha who had momentum because of the rock
stuff and Roman turning babyface and him like there's in

(03:11):
seampunk EPN like it's sort of like Drew during the pandemic.
Cody has these spurts where it's like he's a centerpiece guy,
but then he's just playing subservient robin to John Cena's batman,
and John Cena can't be bothered to put him over,
didn't mention his name for most of the hype to
their match at Wismania, then didn't mention the world title
match in any like significant way afterwards after Summer Slam,

(03:33):
didn't care about losing the title, didn't put Cody over,
just like, oh, will you be my partner, kind of
like Randy Savage Hulkogan or something or worse. So I
just I don't quite know how where Cody is right
now and where he should be and how WD he's
feeling about him And I just throw all that out
there for you to respond to, because he was like
a really popular, over top babyface headlining big crowd like

(03:59):
events with huge crowds, and I don't think he's getting
the credit for being a really important guy in that
in that process, and it seems like all these other
pig stars are coming in and taking credit for well.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
First off, Taylor Swift and Travis kelse here engaged. I
think every podcast needs to start with that. I'm not
even a fan of me. I can take relief, but
I had to mention that, Yeah, damage has been done.
I looking back on what happened with the Rock, I
actually think it really in the long run helped Cody,
uh just to because everyone rallied behind him at that point.

(04:35):
It was those fans were there already, but that just
became like this rally and cry and everybody stayed with him.
And so I think what's happened since then? The John
Cena turn, I think, you know, they despite them just
being in love with themselves for it on ww unrel
I think that has been damaging to Cody, to Sena,

(04:58):
to the company overall. And everything you're saying about John
Cena not mentioning Cody, you know, barely mentioning Cody, and
his first promo coming out of losing the title with
SummerSlam that was bizarre, and then just the lack of
celebration all of it is. I don't know if they
just feel like, well, it's a second title rain, let's

(05:20):
let's go overboard with this. We run the risk of
people like feeling like they've been there and done that before.
I think it's a mistake. I don't know that he's
in such a bad spot, like, oh, they must turn
him heel. I don't feel like that, but I do,
you know, it's worth certainly worth discussing and keeping an
eye on. The only time we've really heard a crowd

(05:41):
boo him when he's been there has been with John Cena.
I believe, am I forgetting anyway.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
Not that I can think of, but not big booze,
but like mentions of his name here, you know, like
there's little indications, little pockets of we're kind of eager
to boo this guy, and I I don't know where
that came from because he hasn't feuded with Alistair.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
Black yet, right, Yeah, I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
And he hasn't done a gender reveal party either.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Give it time. Hopefully there's a second one coming from
the Rhads family. At some point we'll get that. I
would be disappointed if we didn't. You did totally honest
with you, and hopefully by then he will be a
heel and it will make total sense. And he just
dedicates like fifteen minutes to this, it would be awesome.
But yeah, I don't know exactly what completely triggered. I mean,
there is just naturally people are ready to turn the page.

(06:32):
You know, they get their fill and they might be
really into something for a while and then Okay, it's
past and now I'm onto the next thing. And so
I think there's an element of that. I think there's
obviously the I like seeing a more crowded He's the
guy who's retiring. I'm gonna get behind him. I don't
know how passionate those booze are for Cody Rhods. And
when I hear it, like on Monday when Roman mentioned

(06:53):
Cody and there were booze. Okay, with that same crowd
of booed Cody, if he was there in the ring
instead of Rome, That's what I'm waiting for. When I started, okay,
there's no Johnson involved, he's not working with another baby face,
but the fans are starting to reject. You start to
hear more booze. Then we got something. But I don't
know the word there just yet.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, I like, I don't think Cody's had his full
babyface run. But I also I have to put myself
back in the spot where I was a little surprised
at how over he was as a babyface, not like
I don't think he deserved it, or or that he
deserves it or didn't deserve but that's just sort of
surprised how well it meant. Yeah, and so part of

(07:36):
me has that as like the baseline. But maybe there
was something a little more flimsy about the support.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
It was.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
It wasn't rock solid. It was like a movement. It
was a moment. He was fresh from aw you know
the memories that you know, they've they've not glamorized Dusty,
but they've romanticized Dusty over the years, and so it
felt like, you know, Okay, there's there is this this
mission and this goal and this journey we're on with him,
but then there's the other side, the other side, or

(08:04):
not to the other side. This sort of amplifies the
point that maybe it was not this rock solid deep
passion for Cody was more circumstantial because he does have
a history of losing the audience and I think the
WWB powers behind the scenes, wrestlers who have poll and
other people and then Paula Beck, they do just see
Cody's kind of you know, quirkiness. You know, he is

(08:25):
very fastidious and you know, likes to impress people with
big words, which one out of four times he misuses,
but it sounds impressive. He's cut back on that a bit.
I think he got called out, but there's something, you know,
and then he dressing in the suits, and you know,
there comes a point where it's like, oh what a
what a big boy you are? You wearing a suit?
You're so important? And like, I get why he did it,

(08:46):
you know, because one, it fits his personality to be
fastidious and formal and all that, but he wanted to,
you know, I think he buys into the thing of
like dress for the job you want, you know, like,
you know, he's the guy who would wear a suit
to a home office because it will make him be
more professional and hard working during the day. Like I
think he gives off that vibe and you're.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Not wearing one right now with.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
No okay, boy, there's a story there though, back in
the day. So there's something about him where it does
seem like he is on the verge. As happened in
aaw history can repeat itself in that way where fans
would just be like, wait, this guy's kind of kind

(09:28):
of weird. Let's look around for somebody else we like better.
And then also in kind of a medicense, I do
think people think he'd be like a really good heel
and the I think a big part of sort of
the Bellweather fans who are the most vocal online and
that arenas they kind of want to be bookers. They
want a fantasy book, They want to steer the ship
a little bit with their reactions to things. So, like

(09:48):
I said, I don't have any answers. I'm just kind
of intrigued with where this is going because it does
feel like we're in a holding pattern.

Speaker 3 (09:54):
You know.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Sena was very ungracious, very self centered, purposefully or not.
I don't know when it comes to Cody, but like
you know, Cody's forty years old, so seeing you know,
whispers in his ear like every veterans supposed to do
to the up and comer, and it was so performative
in BS, like oh here you the torches passed and
you did good and you deserved the main events. It's
like John, when you were gone, Cody ascended to the

(10:16):
main events, was selling out stadiums before you, having great matches,
better matches than you ever had on you know, like
or as good as you ever had. Some would argue better,
and I can definitely hear that, and had and had
the whole crowd behind him. He didn't have like two
thirds of the audience booing him. Who are you to
be whispering in his frickin' ear. He's a forty year
old man who's been a headliner, who succeeded drawing huge

(10:37):
numbers during a boom period for WWE. It just felt
it just felt patronizing and like he's oblivious to this,
He's trying to create this like false reality. And I
got kind of urged by that. And like if Cody
was thirty one or twenty nine, I could I could
see it. And if Cody hadn't headlined yet and hadn't
had one hundred percent of the crowd behind him for
a long stretch where we're Seena wasn't paying any attention,

(10:58):
That's one thing. So I don't know. I just feel
like Cody's been mismanaged, and so I wasn't. But it
was also the discussional spart because of the rain, the
rain's reaction interesting, he didn't know, you know, how we're
supposed to react to that, perhaps or he didn't want
to show his hand and then that video, which felt
deliberate put in a way that I can read in
two different ways.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, I wonder if Range is kind of like good
the Center Cody the Center will be facing off again
at WrestleMania, because I think that's probably when you'll see
them meet again on the big stage. I don't know
that we're gonna get baby Face Cody against baby Face Rollman.
If we do well, my guard will be way up
for a Cody. He'll turn, you know, during the match.

(11:39):
But I could see that happening. Yeah, I do think
there's been some mismanagement here. I mean you just go
back to the way Seena turned and all of that,
just the how it just seemed like all the thought
was put into that moment and not a lot of
thought was put into life after the turn. And I
think Seena god his best with some promos, but he

(12:02):
just was It was hard to believe him. I really
wanted to, Not that I disliked all of his promos
or anything like that as a heel, but yeah, it's
just there just was something missing, and it's a shame
that we didn't. I understand why we didn't, but it's
a shame we didn't get that turn earlier in his career.

(12:23):
I think that was the big thing for me. It's like,
why are we doing this now? You know, when he's
on the way out. It took guts to do it,
but the way he turned back all of it. You know,
you didn't even get like the satisfaction of Cody Rhoades
beating Heel John Cena. You got the satisfaction of Cody
beating babyface John Cena.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
And I think part of what you know as we
do the kind of the post mortem on the Sena
Heel run is nobody bought it, Like Sena was too
too known to us and too far along in his
career to buy it without an explanation that resonated that
made sense. Were like, oh and seen it didn't do that.
He lived in this alternate reality, created this story that

(13:05):
ignored the fact that fans were actually cheering him earlier
in the year, and so he came out and it
was like it was like this old universe, Costla, I think,
Fansom is, this is what you wanted to see. So
I'm gonna give it to I'm gonna cost play a
heel and I'm gonna grimace and I'm gonna snarl and
I'm gonna kind of half hardly move through it. But
if you tune in at eleven thirty at night, you'll
see me on Colbert yuck it up and not in No,

(13:26):
there'll be no mention of the fact that I'm that
I'm insulting the fans everywhere I go because I'm John
sena the celebrity and I'm the safe you know, the
safe celebrity with a smile who's self deprecating and watch
me in Peacemaker. It was like there was no commitment
to the bit and there was no backstory that he
provided that took into account the reality reality that his

(13:47):
audience had been living in for the past couple of years.
And he didn't talk enough about the bitterness over the fans,
but everything just it felt like he didn't want to
go all the way, so I'm gonna cost play and
give you people what we want. But again, it plays
into my my stance that among top top guys, and
they all have their flaws, and they're all self centered
in some way, and they're all you know, motivated in

(14:10):
some ways to a fault with ambition and cutthroat you know,
cut throat and insecurity and all that. Every top person
to some degree has had that. But see, I just
feels in the lower tier of wrestling IQ Like, I
just don't I mean, philosophically, I just don't think he
I mean, it's weird to say, but I don't think
he ever fully got the role that he was supposed

(14:30):
to play because he got too wrapped up in the
reality era. The people knows that we're here to entertain them,
so I'm just going to overtly talk about we're here
to entertain you instead of understanding that The entertaining part
is when you play the role of a fighter in
a league or you want to be the best, and
scene is just always straight away from that. And so
I just don't think he put enough thought into it,

(14:52):
or he wasn't smart and clever, and you know, I
didn't have the ingenuity to figure out, Okay, how do
we make this work in the circumstance. I think he
just kind of showed up and winged it and it
wasn't good enough.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah. Yeah, I can't even like point the finger at
Cody at all. I don't feel like he was a
bad baby face opponent for John Cena. I think he
did what he could so.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Cody all along just trying not to he was making
too much money and waiting for waiting for all these
people to leave so he could go back to running things.
That's the free thing I got, is like, don't make
it worse and just wait it out.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Well yeah, and I just think John coming back, and
I really wish he would have been on the other
brand now, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, because
I think it has just completely disrupted Cody. I think
that's the big thing that really caused this. The more
I think about it, is it was going to happen
sooner or later, not every you know. I mean, it
happened with Hogan. I took a lot longer, but fans

(15:49):
started to turn on Hogan. They got tired of the act.
And I don't think that's completely happening with Cody, but
I do think whatever's happening kind of was jump started
by this whole transition to Sina and Cody. You know,
just they started, they had a really good thing going,
and then they decided, we need to bring back on chain.
We got to bring back Goldberg. And you know, I

(16:11):
get it, but man, it really took the focus off
of all the good that was happening today, and I
think again, with the benefit of mindsight, it ended up
being a mistake.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
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(16:45):
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Yeah yeah, I agree. I in the warning signs are
there with that first row on Netflix where it's like, oh,
we have Ria Ripley and there's Gunther, but really, let's
talk about the important Stuffy the Rock Paul avac hal

(17:07):
Cogan like it was a ye, yes, it was celebrating
and propping up the past, and I mean one of
the big mistakes wrestling promoters make is celebrating the past
instead of treating the current stars who are in their prime,
who show up every week as being as big of
a star as any other era has ever had. And

(17:31):
the current era fans believe that with Roman, they believed it,
with Cody to a degree, they believed it. They were
willing to embrace it and believe it with other people
certainly see them. Punk was an estel jack, but he
had been gone so long. It wasn't like, oh, he's
just like a Goldberg. He wasn't like a Goldberg thing.
He was just a guy who, you know, kind of
like Sean Michaels went away for years and came back.
It was more that and the and I don't know

(17:54):
if it's they were catering to, like, you know, the
endeavor people, the corporate people, the sponsors who like, oh,
I grew up a triple H and oh the rock
he's a big star in John Ceene, I know, I
saw him on the oscars. If they're just catering to
them at the expense of the wrestling fans, but it
really defined down the crew they had, and you could
tell there was some some angst and bitterness and discontent

(18:16):
with Cody and Drew and Punk and Seth and more
than Punk. I think Punk might have said something too,
but they're little little little comments around that time about yeah,
you know, these people show up, but we've been selling out,
and we've been showing up every week and selling out.
So I think a mistake was made when they had
they're a really good crew coming into this year and

(18:38):
a bunch of people came in and big footed them
and showed up at a party that was that was
already rocking, and then they just showed up and started
taking credit for it. And I think that to find
out and the crew they had, you know, I think
Luther's lost momentum, you know. And yeah, I mean Punk
has for a variety of reasons. And Seene it didn't

(18:59):
help hard ungracious. I mean, yeah, Seene rose the occasional
of that Punk thing, but it I think it did
some damage to Punk in his psyche. Punk is kind
of you know, you don't.

Speaker 3 (19:10):
Get Punk a lot of credit for that. I think
the old Sam Punk would have been lim It would
have shown he didn't sell it a bed. So either
he was in on it and was cool with it,
or he just bit his tongue, was a professional, let
see him do his thing and moved on.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
I think there are people in punks here who are
saying two things to him. One, you have to prove
that the Bucks and hangmen and Tony Khan were wrong,
that you, that you're a malcontent anywhere you go. In
order to do that, you need to eat some shit.

(19:47):
You need to put up with some stuff. Take a
deep breath, meditate, Let it pass. This too will pass,
This too will pass. Just keep that in your head.
Don't become don't let anything become a public spat when
you're here, or it will define you. And I think
punk is greatly motivated by proving it was the Bucks
and hang man you know whatever, that it was them,

(20:07):
not him. And number two, look at your freaking paycheck.
Shut up, collect your money and in a couple of
years go live a lavish life doing whatever you want.
But don't mess it up right now because he's making
so much money working so few matches. And I think
those two things are are the reason. But it doesn't

(20:28):
mean that you can't. He doesn't wear his emotions on
his sleeve, even when he's trying not to, and I
think he has I think through two degree he is
kind of going through the motions on some things, and
part of it, I just think physically it's harder for
him and mentally he's kind of checked out. Like I
remember when right before he quit w B, you know,
people online were going, oh, that was a great match
with with with a Shield that house show or on
that whatever on a RA or something, and his comments

(20:50):
and oh wasn't you know like he did is like
that wasn't any good. And you know there's stuff going
on with him in avariety away specifically and generally, but
he was kind of over it then and you know,
and he's once in a while he gets the spark back,
but it's kind of like Corey Grave said, oh doing
that that triple Atio, reading that in my passion for wrestling.
I think it's important to note, like in public life,

(21:10):
when people do something for a long time, sometimes they
show up to work and they are faking it because
they don't care. They just want their money and they're
looking to you know, it's like it's like they say,
you know, in the NHL playoffs, there's some veterans who
are like, I just want to go have my summer.
I don't want to go deep to the playoffs. I
don't make I make all my money in the regular season.
I just want to go golf.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
And I think you've seen that a lot more players
than like they started to come back for the Team
USA stuff. For a while. There were some big name
players who are like, no, no, I'm sorry, I'm not
not playing international hockey during my downtime.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, and there was some pressure on teams, not too
too Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
You know, I totally sympathize with the players as much
as I'd like to see, you know, see thrive and
I totally get it. Yep.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
So yeah, I think it affected Punk's psyche a bit.
And I think he's like, I will, I will give
you a professional seampun effort and so so. But but
you know, I think he can rise the occasion when
he's inspired, you know, when when he's motivated. But I
think he looks around and it's like, all right, you know,
this is where it's going to be. So he has
his own kind of way of protesting them. So I know,

(22:14):
the the the politics, the palace intrigue. It's not about gossip.
It's about what is driving what happens next, and what
is motivating performers to step up and what is causing
some performers to more phone it in or just give
a professional effort, but no more.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
You know.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
I go back to Haul of Nashville when Bishop fired
Sean Waltman out of spite to us, all of a sudden,
we looked at our contract and said, what's the bare
minimum we have to do to fulfill this as opposed
to showing up early, putting thought in, giving good advice.
You know, I mean, you can say, you know, they
were never the most generous, magnanimous people at the top

(22:53):
of a car. They were looking out for themselves. But
there there became a level of sabotage when they when
they just said, okay, bischeff fingers, screw with our friend
or screw you. And I think it's not to that degree,
but sometimes I just think people like I'm gonna just
the money's good enough, the schedules are better, let me
just show up and do my thing. And I think
there's a danger in that with the company not and

(23:13):
I think the top executives not appreciating how much the
creative effort of wrestlers, that that pride in what they do,
that part of that is missing when it feels so
corporate and so bottom line and in terms of all
it is is it's about making money in the bottom line,
and we're just a business that happens to be promoting

(23:34):
wrestling instead of a wrestling promoter who happens to be
in business. And you know, TKO gives off that vibe
and I think you see, you know you have you
can end up with the locker room mentality where the
top people are looking down looking at the younger ones,
going yeah, you're hungry and you want you want our spot,
and I get it. But you know, when you get here,
you're going to see what this is all about. You're
not going to take unnecessary risks. But there's you know,

(23:54):
exceptions to that here and there too, and I think
fans will recognize it. But Dody's writing a crust a
crust right now, a momentum, but I don't know that
the current product is justifying it or making me feel
confident that a year and a half from now it'll
be sustained.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
No, they've cooled off. I don't think any denying that
at this point. I mean, the numbers aren't what they are,
but it can take a little time for things to
trickle down or whatever. But you can just tell watching
the product, and I mean you can so well. It's subjective,
but if you've been watching, I think most people would
agree they've cooled off, not like their ice cold and
oh my god what no. Yeah, but things have Creatively,

(24:32):
it's not what it once was. I know you and
I both spent a lot of time grumbling about all
the disqualification finishes we've been getting on television. It seems
like the last couple of weeks maybe they figured that out.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Like okay, we've shaved them into shaping up.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Whatever it took. Yeah, I mean, seriously, it was getting bad.
It's just yeah, and too many shows. It's over killed.
Now you're not only you know, you've got the three
major weekly shows. Now they're like, hey, here's Triple A. Everybody.
It's like, my god, that I think is having is

(25:10):
going to take its toll when you just have so
much product, both on the fans just in general, but
also creatively on the company. I don't know who's doing
what as far as Triple A is concerned, but it's just,
you know, they're adding more and more. Paul of X
gotta fly to Mexico to sit in the crowd when
I mean the guy has clearly overworked out of Matt Well,
I assume anyway, Yeah, it's like why did he need

(25:34):
to be there and make that extra flight? What purpose
did that serve? And I'd rather have focus on whatever
the hell's been missing from the product lately. I liked
last night shows, the Raw Show, but there's just yeah,
there's been too many of the weekly television shows where
you like, you watch, you're like, wow, that was a
filler episode and I didn't feel like that before. And

(25:56):
I think it was it all starts to run together.
I don't know if it was. I think it was
the front before last for SmackDown. Maybe it was this
frout one.

Speaker 1 (26:03):
It just was like, wow, Yeah, there there are shows now.
There are shows now where you feel like they have
this formula and they just drop some things in it
and it's it's, you know, minimally booked, minimally there's not
a lot of and and you know you they're in
the honestly, like part of me is like there should
be shows like that, like this isn't the Monday night War.
You don't want to be hot shotting constantly. That can

(26:23):
lead to an unsustainability. Uh, but there are times where
It's like, is just dropping in a maintenance show, a
kind of a paint by numbers episode. Do they have
the talent and the connection with the audience to make
that not watchable but something more than watchable, Like you
want to? You want to With all the choices we

(26:44):
have now, do wo to be to sustain themselves have
to feel like every you know, just about every episode
has to feel like things are moving forward. There's stars
we care about, and this is this is something people
are gonna remember and and and for good reason. It's
not bad and and I think, you know, they have
just enough of a healthy current roster in their prime
to pull it off most of the time. But there

(27:06):
isn't a huge spark right now, you know. I think
that's why fans are excited when they see Roman Ragne
show up. I think they want more from Rihea Ripley, Yeah,
you do y yeah, And you know, and I think
they're having fun with Charlotte, And I mean, it's fine,
but it doesn't feel electric most of the time. It
feels like I'm a Dode fan and I enjoyed watching,

(27:28):
but I don't think there's a lot of adrenaline rushes.
But there's a lot of dressing up the show with
a format, the drones showing people arriving at the building,
showing the scenes of the city, showing the red hot crowd,
talking about all the numbers, and oh we're with ESPN
now and before that Worth Netflix now. There's so much
that's just celebrating the brand and that these shows are

(27:49):
an event and they get they they are fantastic at
that now and it's it's something aw should have done
early on when they had those crowds, people lining up
outside the building enthusiastically and big crowds and big arenas.
I mean, it just isn't Tony Kahan's thing to be
visual in that way, like he's just he's you know.
I but and it's unfortunate because I think they lost

(28:09):
the momentum building their brand is as like this true
major league alternative Adoto Beee is so in the music
choices too, you know, just contemporary paying rights fees all this.
I mean, it just it feels like that's a place
I need to be. I want to be. But when
the show happens and you're watching at home, you know,
there's a lot of dressing, you know, kind a lot
of window dressing. But sometimes the content is just it's
it's just good, but where was that? Whoa segment or two?

(28:33):
And then sometimes they reach for it and and it
doesn't work. So but part of that, like you said, Jason,
it's it's over it's it's doing too many events, it's oversaturation.
And then on the bright side, but there's a side effect.
A lot of people are getting more time off in rotation,
which we called for for decades, and now they're getting it.
You know, it's a light schedule compared to what they
used to have, but it can kind of lead to
some lost momentum here and there too, or thinner shows

(28:55):
where it's like I paid how many hundreds of dollars
to be here, and I'm seeing three of my set
and favorites on this brand itself, not just on the
on the whole, not not in the whole company, but
just the you know, you might see three out of
the top seven stars on SmackDown and three out of
the top seven on on Rows.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Some weeks it was the August fifteenth Smackdowns what I'm
talking about. It was in Boston. The way they put
tickets on sale, and it's not just w everybody does this.
Now you want to go to a country, you had
to buy a ticket a year early, and so, okay,
it's ridiculous. But if you bought tickets for that show
in Boston, you probably did so thinking that John seen
It was going to be there. He wasn't. Instead, the

(29:32):
most notable thing they advertised was Drew McIntyre's going to
discuss his attack on Cody Rhads. I like Drew was
a good promo. That's it. There's not a main event.
You're going to advertise nothing, and for good reason that.
There just was not a lot going on in that show.
It was just underwhelming. And I get like you, yes,
maitenance shows, but as you were just saying, like boy,

(29:54):
imagine you paid top dollar to go to this show
and you're expecting the stars to be there. There's no Cody,
there's no Sena, and you just get this flat, lifeless
two hour We phoned it in show Boy. If if
they come back to town next time, they better be
it better be for John Cena's retirement tour, because if
I live there, I'd be like, hell no.

Speaker 5 (30:20):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p WT Talks NXT, the
longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(30:40):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
And I think there's a bit of an arrogance and
a complacency to the tone of the show. I think
there's a lot of people just going we are big
time now. We're on Netflix, we'rerunn a p We're doing
two stadium shows with huge foot NFL sized crowds. We
are great. We got this figured out. There's no stop
at us now. And Eric Bischoff felt that in the

(31:11):
Nitro arawitiy is way more prepared to me, you know
obviously yea, you know, they're way more competent than the
dysfunction that's going on WW at the time. But it's
a different kind of you know, warning sign when you
just feel like you're buying your own press. And a
big part of it is these people show up and
they spend the money they spend and they react to
a few stars in a big way. But how are

(31:31):
they feeling afterwards? I don't know if ww's doing exit
surveys with crowds, exit interviews, like, you know, did you
feel we got your money worth? I mean, they send
the emails out, but I wonder how many people walk
away going I didn't see you know, it's John Cena
as an extreme example, but it's like the top three
stars were like again, kind of three of the top
seven and man, I don't know. Next time, maybe I'm

(31:52):
gonna wait or not not not pay as much and
we'll see. I mean, but they have so much revenue
coming in they can quote afford to be complacent and
arrogant and overconfident and buy their own you know, misread
the signals that are being sent because you're right, people
are buying tickets on spec, not because they love what
you did the last two months. They're buying it. They

(32:13):
bought the tickets way before that. And I don't know
how many people, if you asked them, would have bought
the ticket if they had to make that decision and
the weeklyading up to the show. And that's a question
that you're w b you should be trying to get
a pretty good sample on.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah, yeah, and well, I just look at the product
right now and I think that it's in need of something.
I don't know exactly what it is. Maybe it is
just shaking up the formula the television, because it was
really cool when they'd open the show like, oh, here's
the outside of the building and here's people that. Now
it is just really, you're doing this again, huh. It's
just as formula as it was under Kevin Dunn. It's

(32:46):
just a different formula and once in a while though
stray from it. They need to do more of that.
It does take its toll, and it's just like, ah okay.
And even if you're just somebody casually watching the show,
maybe you watch the show once a month or something,
and if you're just seeing like it always kind of
looks the same. I don't know that that's a good thing. Yeah,

(33:06):
that the Boston one in particular, like it seems you know,
it's seen us from there. I mean it's a it's
a big town, and my god, and you end up
with a six man tag main event and very little
star power on the show. I really don't get it.
And back to the TKO thing, there's I guess I

(33:27):
know that there are people within both companies extremely frustrated
right now by this tribal stuff. For a long time
there you would hear it on the AW side, people
like upset that Tony wouldn't shut up, you know, stay
off of social media, Tony, because it wasn't helping. And
now there's people in WWE, Wait a minute, we're running

(33:49):
head to head with their pay per view. Why because it, yes,
it benefits the company, it doesn't benefit the wrestlers. They
know that, they know it's leverage for them as long
as AW exists, even if they never intend to go there,
that's leverage for them. They don't want to, they don't
want to be part of that, and it's not like
they're going to quit their jobs or anything, but it
does kind of take its toll on the wrestlers and

(34:09):
just like this is one big corporate thing and now
we're the bad guys attacking the upstart company. Well why
are we doing this? And believe me, there's I think
there's a lot more of that than people realize.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Oh yeah people, Yeah. I think wrestling fans get kind
of brand loyal and they don't realize the wrestlers who
they think are cheering for them by taking AW side
or adoe B side aren't always on the side of the
of the company they're working for. It doesn't mean they're
against them, but they're against like you said, having options.
They're friends, you know, like it. It is interesting when

(34:39):
people learn, oh, Kevin Owens is friends with the Young
Bucks and see them Punk still talks with wrestler blank
and like it feels weird because people think it's like
NFL teams the it's Adobe and they're aw It's like,
you know, I mean, and really it's like the NFL too.
I mean there's players obviously in the NFL. You see
it when games end where they're like, we just fought
to win, but now I'm going to sa your hand

(35:00):
and talk about how we're going to go out to dinner.
And they're wearing opposite uniforms. So wrestlers in the end
are not looking out for the brand. They're looking out
for themselves. And t KO does.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
A healthy business. It's not even yeah, I just think
they want they want the industry to be healthy.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yes, sure, there's there's two layers that You're totally right.
There are people who just wrestlers who think I want
the restling this to be healthy. I want fans to
have choices. I want rest have choices, and I want
there to be as many jobs as possible and and
that's more sort of altruistic and it's genuine. But then
there's the other side too, which is when my deal
comes up, I want leverage. I want to know that

(35:40):
I can go work for Tony Khan or if I'm
an AW, I know I can negotiate against what that
would be might offer me. Like you know, maybe Chris
Jerky's trying to pull that off. I don't know that.
You know, plenty half sometimes sometimes genuinely. Sometimes it's manufactured,
uh competition to drive your price up. So yeah, t
KO is who would have thought that when Vince McMahon

(36:02):
would be ousted due to scandal, ostracized due to scandal,
that it wouldn't you know? And Paulovac is this you
know NXT takeover era guy friendly with the wrestling media.
You know, built a brand that showed that he appreciated
smaller wrestlers and indie wrestlers who worked hard. And you
know it was the daddy given jobs to the kids,

(36:24):
and the head coach who all the wrestlers loved, and
the New Dusty essentially the guy who everyone just goes, oh,
I'm everyone. Paula Beck gave me that good advice in
NXT and it helped me. He wants to be that guy.
And who would have thought that with that all in place,
big bad TKO would show up and just come across
as corporatizing in the worst way a brand that people

(36:45):
felt a passionate and loyalty for, and obviously they still
do to an extent. I mean, this is like we're
talking like this is some doomsday. They're still drawing great
crowds and all that. But it's not our job from
our chairs, Jason, to to go like cheer or just
blindly stamp put our stamp of approval on things. It's
to go. Are there warning signs from learning from history?

(37:09):
And it is their feedback that's being misinterpreted. And I
think there are some warning signs that I think some
feedback like tickets that were about six months ago being
an endorsement of what ww's been doing the last six
weeks on TV. We're here to say no, that is
something that would be should not fool themselves into thinking
is the case. And when it comes to TKO aggressively
going after aw the way they are with the head

(37:29):
to head dates does make them look like the bad guys.
And I think it, you know, I don't know how many.
I mean, you know, but then you look look at
Jay's to come out through the crowd and the kids
are and the son of the dad or why did
I go? And I can't believe the sex to Jay.
I mean, that is what w B knows, is what
they're selling, and they know probably rightfully, so despite our
half hour here talking about it, that most people just

(37:52):
want to be present for those moments and be in
the presence of those rock stars, and TKO puts that
gloss around it with the way they shoot the shows
and the celebrities and the music and the aerial shots.
They make it seem like a big deal, and in
their mind that means a lot more than the corporate
image taking a hit for being, you know, overly aggressive
or ruthlessly aggressive.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
One might say, yeah, and I think that the most
interesting I've said before. I think that one of the
most interesting times I had whenever it happens, is when
t KO isn't printing money anymore, even it's just naturally
there's going to come a point where you've peaked, and
it doesn't mean they're going to crash or anything like that.

(38:33):
But once they stop, like you know, we have record
revenue and all that. When once they can stop saying that,
how do they react and who are they listening to?
We kind of assume Dwyne Johnson. We kind of a
question what Dwayne Johnson's relationship with Paula Beck is like?
And so is Levec going to be you know, doesn't
right now. I mean they're they're propping him up like

(38:54):
they're day in a white So I don't think there's
anything to worry about now, but long term, you know,
who knows if all of a sudden things do take
a big hit financially, I don't know what happens next
as far as Levek and his team and who's next
if they do decide to make a change this. I mean,
we we can come up with a short list of names,

(39:16):
but I mean, this is not a company that came
up loving wrestling and understanding the business that they just
bought it.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
They bought a company, yep, and and that you you know,
you know, like I mean, there's so many things that
aren't analogous to it, but I'll bring up like the
AOL Time Warner merger and take it over w W.
And it's like, you know, you read the Nitro book
by Guy Evans, and it's like they're they're like, well,
Eric vinc or so, just just do something to pop
ratings again, do something to make to help compete with Ron,

(39:48):
beat them again. Like it just it was the edict
is just get Mega successful again, and not understanding that
they had spent all the all the hot shot angles,
they had all the top talent head and the dysfunction
caught up with them. And it isn't like you don't
just decide to do it. It takes like kind of
years of good decision making to get back to that point.

(40:10):
And it's it's it's like you know, yes, you can
fast for twenty four hours, but what you're really going
to do if you want to be lose weight or
be healthy is make good decisions. You know, three hundred
and thirty out of three hundred and sixty five days
a year, I mean that that's what's going to help
you get healthy. It's going to be change over the
course of a year, and then you have to keep
it up or you're going to put the weight back on.
That's how wrestling is. You can hotshot and have like,
oh I went down two pounds, Well yeah, because he

(40:31):
didn't eat for two days. But that's not sustainable. And
that's what hot shotting and wrestling is like. And so
corporations have a history when they come in going my
ass is on the line. Do something and they don't
learn about it, they don't understand what it takes and
and like you know, John Cena not being a fact.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
And then the dangerous part is who they listen to
when they get just a surface level understanding of what's happening.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
And elaborate on that. I think I just.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
If you're listening to the right person, great, If you're
not good, good god. I mean, I don't think they
were listening to necessarily the right people in WCW. And again,
I don't know if it's just as simple as Ari
talks to Dwanne Johnson to get his feedback and then
it stops there, or if he's getting up he's talking
with other I just don't know.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah. Well, and one of the things that would help
is if you protect the world title as being important
and John Cena not lamenting losing a title that he
dreamed of winning and built all this hype around winning
and it was so important to him, and then he
loses it and he can't be bothered to be affected
by it, and he just turns the page to the
next thing because now that he's not in the world

(41:37):
and that's the thing. It doesn't help John Cena to
put the world title over if he's never going to
be in the world title picture again. And that's what
makes him super ungracious and selfish in the way he
conducts himself. He's just in it for himself. The world
title is the most important thing in the world, except
when I'm not in the world title picture, in which
case I will not even address it. And it's up
to Cody now to make it feel important.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
And this isn't new with John Sanna.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
No, it isn't. And so you know, he's got a
big smile and he's affable, and I think he was
what ww ME needed in a corporate sense, to clean,
you know, to project a very different image than what
they had during coming out of the Attitude era. And
I think he knew how to play that role. He knows,
you know, he knows what he's he knows what he's
doing in a way that promotes the John Cena brand.

(42:20):
And it's like Hocgin defended to me when I interviewed
him back in two thousand and two. It's like, it's
my job to protect and build my brand. You know,
it's everybody's job to do that. I mean, in so
many words, that's what he conveyed to me on record
and off record. It's just like, I'm not I'm not
sitting here trying to make the industry better. Unless it
helps me, then I will.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Yes, you know, but some wrestlers are wired differently than goodness.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yes, totally, but some top guys aren't. And sometimes it
is that ruthlessness that and then people, you know, like
and that's why you know it. You know, people are
kind of surprised, like when I say, well, John Cena
whispering in Cody's ear, that's not you know. Some people
on the post were like, well, look at that. There's
a good chemistry there, Wade, I'm like, no, that's that's bullshit.
I just Seena performatively acting like he's the veteran patronizingly

(43:06):
patting Cody on that and going you're gonna be good kid,
good luck in your career. And it's like Cody's already had.
He's already been a top guy, drawing big crowds and
drawing big, bigger Right. The thing is is Cody, you
can make an argument on a show by show, month
by month basis when he's on top, was way better
than Johnson, way more successful than John Cena, uh in
terms of the crowds they were drawing, you know, in
the metrics change in terms of TV ratings, that kind

(43:28):
of thing, because that's just a different world. So I
don't really like comparing the metrics at all without just
sort of yeah, subjective informed interpretation and analysis, and you know,
you can sit here and make the case the metrics
should be raised differently. But Cody is part of much
bigger crowds and much more enthusiast and as I said,
much more enthusiastic responses to him than than she never had.

(43:49):
So who'cina to be whispering in his ear Seena did
that to make himself look like, you know, the veteran
quarterback telling the rookie after a game, good game, you'll
get him next time, or good game, you beat me.
You're gonna be great. It's just like it's it's part
of SEEA's image. It's not anything I can't rule out.
It's not genuine, but I'm I am. I don't think
it's cynical to realistically frame that as very possibly something

(44:11):
that Sina thinks you're supposed to do on that way
to make yourself look like the alpha.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
Yeah, I can totally see that. And in his defense,
I think everything you're saying about Cody topping him in
so many ways is accurate. I think the one thing
he would probably point to is the longevity that he
had as a top guy. And I could also come
back at that and say, well, probably would have been
better had they made a change. It did a few
different points, but.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Or turn or Cody could have longevity if you weren't
messing with it.

Speaker 3 (44:38):
Right right exactly.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, And as I say about Cody and yeah, I
can't remember anyway. Thanks for downloading today's show. Take it
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(45:04):
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(45:24):
dot com slash go VIP. Well, Jason, let's let's deep
into the show, but let's pause and introduce ourselves briefly.
Here this is the wayde Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, the
Tuesday Flagship edition for August twenty six, twenty twenty five.
I'm WAYD Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher and
founder of the prosing Torchure newsletter long running since late

(45:45):
nineteen eighties, and I'm joined by Jason Powell from Pro
Wrestling dot Net. Jason, as always, welcome to the Flagship.
Always good talking and wrestling with you.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Absolutely always great to be here.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Tell people how they can hear more from you, need
more of you in between your appearances here on the
flag Ship.

Speaker 3 (46:03):
Yeah, check out the Pro Wrestling Boom podcast. That is
my free podcast. It just did a show on Monday
with Sean Plickta. You may recognize an am he's also
he also goes by Sean from Murphy's Boro, Tennessee. He
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NXT show, but a lot of aw Forbidden Door. That's

(46:25):
free for everybody. It's a weekly podcast. Just do a
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And if you need a news update, if you're looking
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or pla, we've got your covered hitlist or all sorts
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(46:48):
If you are interested in membership, visit PW Membership dot net.
Make a nice and simple for you there before I
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(47:10):
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(47:31):
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Speaker 1 (47:44):
All right, great, so we've talked a lot about John Cena.
I want to talk a little more about him, and
in a good way, which is the performance with logan.
Paul Sena can bring it and he knows it. He's
got it in him and he always had it in him,
which is a shame we didn't see it a little
bit more often. I think I think there's a version
of Sena over the years when he was getting booed
by the male audience that could have gotten cheered if

(48:05):
he brought a little bit more edge, and he made
his decision not to, and you know, they rationalized any
reaction is a good reaction, and the kids and women
liked him and all that. But like when he's motivated
and he's against somebody who he feels that he respects
on the microphone, and I think he respects Logan Paul
for what he's done entrepreneurially. We can talk about. Obviously
there's a whole sidebar of how tasteless and gross Logan

(48:28):
has been in order to climb certain rungs of the
ladder to fame. But I think there is a level
of appreciation for the sort of self made guy who
else is gifted athlete and has a passion for wrestling,
And Sena's like, all right, you got a gift a gap.
I'm excited by this. It's like it's like, you know,
the basketball players when they're on national TV playing actually

(48:49):
playing defense and working harder and having their biggest scoring games.
When the when it's a game of the week on
national television instead of just you know, some you know,
Tuesday night game in a small market, and Sena does
it does rise to the occasion Brett Hard had that
rap pack. He just went through the motions at house shows,
but roast the occation on pay per views. It's you know,
this kind of pacing yourself was Sina though, when he's motivated,
he can. He always was able to bring it and

(49:11):
he still can. I thought Logan was good too, But
I thought that was a good pure heel, pure babyface.
A little bit meta, but not too much. I don't know,
I don't know if there's any meta. I mean, it
was just it felt like they brought non w life
into it in a way that worked. What did you think?

Speaker 3 (49:29):
I like that promo has changed a lot. I thought
it was maybe seeing his best work since he's coming.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Yeah, we really struggling to think of another promo. I
enjoyed more. He he hit hard, Logan Paul hit hard back. Well, actually,
I think Logan Paul really started it, and then was
Sena that really kind of shut Logan Paul down. Yeah,
and it was. Yeah, it was done in a believable manner.
Listening to what they were talking about, it was. It
was compelling. I thought it was really strong.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, so Sina is mega talented. So when we talk
about the politics and the lack of creation, bousness and
in it for himself and lower tier of IQ of
a top guy as a performer on the microphone when motivated,
showed he can bring.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
It kicking ass in the new seas of Peacemaker and already.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, I gotta chick that out. Have
you been watching Hunting Wives? Did you watch Hunting Wives?

Speaker 3 (50:21):
I have not yet.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
No, Yeah, it's good. It's good. Kind of Desperate Housewives
meets Ozark would be my framing of it.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
I never watched Desperate Housewives, but I love Ozarks, but
I get the idea of Desperate Housewise for sure.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yep, any any show with housewives in it, it'll work
like it's about a bunch of bunch of rich housewives,
but there's an Ozark element to it, with some trailer
parks and some crime and intrigue and scandal and rich
people with secret lives and and mystery. It's fun. To
Todd Martin and somebody who emailed the show, we're talking

(50:55):
about that, and I was like, Okay, I'll give it
a shot. It takes probably three episodes to kind of
understand even what it is, and I think it's like
a nine episode series.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
Is that Netflix?

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Yep?

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Okay, yep?

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Cool? Why did I Why don't we bring that up?

Speaker 3 (51:10):
We're talking John Cena?

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Oh yeah, I'm peacemaker yep, all right? So oh, the
Vision is it called the Vision? The Visionary, the Visionaries,
the Vision, the vision somebody emailed us and so they
didn't like they should have been called Yeah, Carlos said
for the Weekly flight Ship today goes the Vision is

(51:32):
a terrible name. They almost got it right. The faction
should be called the Visionaries. Maybe there was a trademark
issue or something with that. Uh, neither here nor there.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
How do you?

Speaker 1 (51:40):
How do you feel about this? Because it's been a
topic on my shows, so I'm gonna get your take
on it. That there's you know, we talk about people
kind of being in their own universe or not being
gracious or whatever. I feel Seth is kind of hurting
his reputation in a way by just showing up, just
just being Seth, oblivious to what's going on around him.
And it's the outfits, and it's the music, and it's

(52:01):
the crowd singing, and then you have like it's like
he's it's like almost like a split screen, like there's
Seth and then there's Hayman leading a faction of bron
Breaker and Brons and Read, and Hayman's like, I'll just
let Seth do what he's doing. There'll be some perfunctory
transition between their talking times, but there's no a there's
no chemistry there, and and I figured there had to
be if they chose to do this, that they'd be

(52:23):
invested in trying to create a dynamic, and it's not there.
I think Seth kind of tried to compensate for that
yesterday and interacting a bit backstage. But there's also sort
of the scene of whispering in the ear of Cody
bit with Seth that has more credibility, but it also
is sort of an eye roll, you know, when he'd like,
is doing it to Read and Break or two because
it's like you got to be more of like a

(52:44):
teammate and I don't know, it just it's not it's
not not working for me, but it's not working for me.
I do think it's just a means to an ends,
which is have Hayman have a faction and it's going
to lead. They know what the endpoint is and they're
more excited about that than they are making this seem
like it's a long term deal. That's my take on it.
But I think it's too transparently the case at this point.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
I think you're right about that. And there's set thing.
I thought we were going, okay, he wouldn't change the music,
or if some of the company would, and I don't
know maybe, I mean, for all we know he's fine,
would change the music, and they just don't want you
for what? Right?

Speaker 4 (53:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah, But the attire, he was going fine there it
looked like he was toning it down. And then I
think it was last Monday, showed up looking like he
was wearing something Missus Roper would wear from back in
the threes company day. I don't know what the hell
he was going for, and it's just like, not cool man,
It's just you're sticking with this character that kind of

(53:36):
ran its course and it's just time to do something different.
Now you're the head of his faction. I think people
really want to like this and what he's doing just again,
it just feels like, well, you're you're still doing that, huh,
And it's it's unnecessary. They have something here. I think
it's time for them to get excited about this, not

(53:56):
just like where it's going. And when Braun Breaker has
his breakout, they have some good stuff going on here.
I'm really into what Bronson Reid is doing now. Yeah,
and and Breakers always fun and yeah that's in. You know,
Seth is Seth, but gosh, take the challenge, man, you know,
be more than just the usual Seth.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
And and that's the thing is it doesn't seem to
have crossed that's mind to incorporate Hayman into this. I
didn't think Cayman could be bigfooted, and I think came.
It just comes across as sort of resigned, like you
know whatever. I mean, Like this is he's looking ahead
to when it's it's him and bron you know, him
working with bron Breaker, either as the Bobby Heenan too
Breakers Hogan or the hay the wise man to Roman

(54:40):
or the advocate for Lesson or whatever that turns out
to be. I think that's where Haman's passion is. And
Seth is just being Seth and they just sort of
tolerate him doing his thing and and it yeah, it's
it's unfortunate, but it would be good. And I don't
know if it's too late or not, but because maybe
it's just it is what it's going to be, which
is Seth does isn't hardwired to understand like he should

(55:02):
have thought through and convey to the audience. How does
Paul Hayman serve him? But Seth gimmick is I'm the
visionary and the architect, so he doesn't need a wise
man or an advocate. You know, there's nothing. I don't
believe anything if you just buy into this world. Why
does Seth need Hayman? Have we been told why Seth
wants to be around Hayman? What purpose Hayman serves for him?

(55:25):
It made sense with Rains and you know, oh it's
a wise man. I respect him and he worships me
and my ego needs to be worshiped. But I also
respect his knowledge because he's been around longer than me
and Haman with the advocates like brockets to kick gas
and train while Hayman takes care of the legal stuff.
That was you know gimmick with Jim Cornett, JJ Dell
and Bobby Heenon great managers were like, yeah, I take
Gary Hart, I take care of all this stuff behind

(55:46):
the scenes, and I and I kind of keep them
on course and manage their affairs so they can worry
about beating people up. And there's nothing like that with Seth.
Seth did not change in any way that is presenting
itself to the audience. They're like, oh, we should look
at that differently because now he's with Hayman and he's
got the backing of Breaker and read.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Yeah, I'm surprised that this is. It just hasn't taken
shape the way I hoped it would, and it does
start with Seth. With Hayman, there's moments there. Yeah, it
doesn't feel like and maybe it's still to come, you know,
I'm hoping it's just well, we've got to kind of
see how these personalities playoff with one another and then
we'll kind of really lean into what we want those

(56:27):
personality characteristics to be. And I think we're getting there
with Bronton Reid right now. I'm still not sure what
bron Breaker is, you know, I mean, I like what
I see, but as far as like what is a
defined character? Is he kind of crazy like his uncle
Scott as he you know, what exactly is it? And
they kind of struggled with that NXT too to kind

(56:47):
of figure out what that identity was when he was
a baby face, he went on a fishing boat and
he was a down to earth guy. A lot of
people that really didn't like that. I thought it was great.
I really like, mah, this can work. He's a very
likable baby face. It's okay that he's down to the
earth and he's not screaming and yelling like everybody else.
But you know, I was in the minority. So yeah,

(57:08):
it's just kind of they got to figure that part
out of it. Figure figure out those things. And one
thing that just surprised me watching Raw was the last
few weeks, that's defending the World Heavyweight Championship against arguably
the top three baby faces on the Raw brand, the
top three contenders. Can you imagine Bobby Heenan's reaction. Now

(57:31):
there wasn't there weren't four ways back in those days,
But imagine if Nick Bockwinkle was forced to defend the
title against the three top contenders, Heenan would lose it.
He would be petrified. He'd be the one, you know
Backwinkle would be confident, and Heenan would be yelling at
Wally Carb, you know, just throwing fits, not getting any
of that. It's just yes, that's he's smart. He's going
to face these three guys. I think Hayman had a

(57:52):
little reaction when the match was first announced, and that
was about it. They just they're way too confident about this.
Tell me on this. Make it seem like risk of
losing this championship, and say we just skipped to last
night where Seth is like, oh, look and that's great.
You know he was pointing out like the's friction between
the baby Faces, that part of the story needed to
be there, But you skip the other chapter.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Yeah, really good points. Uh, as far as Seth's title
ring goes, you have or the title match goes in
the four way. You have three Babyface opponents, and the
focus has been how do we create a sense of
dysfunction so it doesn't seem like Seth is outnumbered. But
now the fans are sort of in a pick up situation. Oh,
I want to light I to win. He should get
a world title, he should get his gold watch. Jane

(58:36):
Punk have already been there, or no, I want Jay
to do it again. He was cut short, he was
short changed, and see I'm punk, you know, Oh, he's
got to get one up on Seth again and he's
the biggest star of the group. Yeah, different people are
gonna have their their different person they pick, but you are.
When you do this match, you're giving up what is
peak pro wrestling main event world title, which is a
singular babyface who fans rally behind against the heel who

(58:58):
you want to see lose the title. Then that's not
in this formula. But you also want to create the
sense that the titles at risk and do would be.
It kind of falls into the thing of we don't
want to get fans excited about something that's not going
to happen, and so when there's gonna be a title change,
they kind of run from it. I guess they don't
want fans to be disappointed. They're very selective when it
comes to that. They don't think fans care about finishes.

(59:19):
But I think in the back of their mind they're like, well,
we're not going to do a title change. We don't
want to get people excited about that possibility and get
their hopes up. But it's like, well, but then it's
a tell, it's a giveaway, and you end up being
invested in the match for something other than the risk
of the title changing hands, which should feel monumental, and
it is why everybody, why all this? You know, why
is all this happening? It's it's because everybody wants to

(59:39):
work their way to a world title pretty much. And
when that gets downgraded via John Cena not caring afterwards,
or the bill to a pay per view, or a
title not being defended very often, or the farcical ways
of titles change hands or contenders are chosen, that all
chips away at something that is, you know, just the
support beam in the structure of progress, and when that

(01:00:01):
starts chipping away, the whole thing kind of can crumble
and it gets a lot harder to get people to care.
So and I don't think this is like a disaster,
but the points you bring up are are valid in
terms of undercutting some of sess uh, what should be
a selling point for seth at this point?

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
Yeah, in this match in particular, I do think we're
in a lull right now for both major companies, and
it's because we just had two major summer shows with
some major title changes, and when that happens, you get
situations where, Okay, the next title match may look great
on paper, you didn't know that there was just a

(01:00:35):
title change, and most fans are savvy enough to know
they just changed it. They're not going to do it again,
and that's unavoidable, you know. And but you have to
work hard to come up with things, and I thought
they did by going with three baby faces, the three
guys that have been after Seth and they've got them
now and these and you did. But you have to

(01:00:57):
sell it. You have to have Hayman out there just
I get you know, Haral and should sell it a
little bit. But Hayman should have been the one just
fretting over there like he worried he's going to lose
that championship, because it also builds up the value of
the championship when he's concerned that Seth is going to
lose it. And yeah, there was just there was none
of that, and that is a way like that. The

(01:01:19):
four way match actually should be all right, Seth just
won the title, but man, the decks really stacked against him.
That's why you got to lean into that. And just
across the board though, you know, with all these major
title changes, it is kind of tough to sit here
and expect, Okay, you're going to get another one this soon. No,
And it's just like I say, it's unavoidable. It happens

(01:01:40):
after Wrestling Ania all the time too, where you know,
all these big title changes occur, and then the the
shows that followed. It's like, yeah, it's not yet. You
almost need to get two three months down the road
before people start buying it again.

Speaker 6 (01:01:56):
Are you a nostalgic wrestling fan? Do you want to
hear about shows you haven't seen in ten, twenty, maybe
even thirty years. Well, I have the show for you.
I'm pwtortch dot com contributor Frank petty Ani, and since
December of twenty twenty, I've hosted Pro Wrestling Then and Now.
Together with a rotating chair of co hosts. We go
back and review old shows from top to bottom, talk

(01:02:17):
about where the wrestlers were at the time and compare
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Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Why do you feel about the job they've done with
La Knight. By the way, I got a kickout of
punk shooting on it a little bit, calling him like
a clumsy goofball or something like little things leaked through it.
It wasn't goofball.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
What was the I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
It was stood out to me. It's like, ah, I
don't think that's just randomly it shows and let's see,
uh clumsy idiot, clumsy up in my report called him
a clumsy idiot. Yeah I know so, but I mean
and yes, La And at every match there's a moment,
you know, it's like it's just you know that he's
you know, going he's on someone shoulders and he slips

(01:03:20):
up there. Corey Grace is constantly gasping during La Knight
matches as a wrestler with a wrestler's eye when something
is going wrong and they could go bad. There's He'll
Ellen Night Will had the one moment he screws up
on the mic and the you know, but he trips up,
but he kind of recovers and then one spot in
the match you're like ah, and they're like, oh, okay, good.
It's just it's kind of fun. It's like you just
check check it's like bingo card like okay, yep, l

(01:03:42):
A Knight botches a small thing in a promo but
recovers and Ellen Night almost hurts himself for someone else
and recovers. But but at the same time, there he
he like. I thought his promo last night was really good,
and I think in the ring he's better than I
expected based on his prior work. So you know, we
can kind of, you know, poke fun at him a
little bit, but he's he's in the mix right now

(01:04:03):
in a way that I thought he would have been
moved down the card to a lower spot by now.
I thought the novelty of his act would have moved
him a couple spots down and it would be you know,
pent in the spot or right, you know whatever. They'd
find some new shiny toy to push. Do you think
this is a lack of options he's a designated job
or or do you think no, there's a fan following
and they're they're acknowledging it and and and he's earned this.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
I think he has earned it. And I think the
move from SmackDown to Raw really helped. I think on SmackDown,
had he stayed there, it would have been okay, he's
moving down the card. It was feeling like that, like
they just kind of it ran its course and he's,
you know, losing the secondary title and he's not. It's
not so he can move up and face the champion.
It's just like, no, it's kind of done. But then

(01:04:48):
all of a sudden you move into Raw and things
heat up and it feels fresh and he seems reinvigorous.
He's out there cutting really good promos. I've been impressed
to it, just the way he's just upped his game.
I think that of the three guys challenging Sath is
not that Jay's not exactly a great promo, but Punk is,
and I think, quite rankly, I think that Knight's promos

(01:05:09):
have been better thus far. Well, I guess that's it.
We've already had to go home show for unless somebody
pops up on SmackDown this week, then I think L. A.
Knight won the battle as far as like the strongest
promos of those three baby faces going into that title match.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Yeah, I agree. Yeah, all right, Well.

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
In Punk's defense, maybe some of it is because Punk
knows you save that for when accounts, because he's not
winning the championship on Sunday.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Yeah, Yeah, and I think there's Yeah, I think that's
part of it. It's it's strategic and imprudent in a
way to kind of pick your spots, but the brand
should be protected, you know, the seampunk brand is he
wins every verbal battle. So, you know, I think part
of this is one are the metrics are going to
make me think I made a difference. You're selling tickets
to these things way before matches are announced. There's no papers,

(01:05:58):
you buy rates where you can judge against the other,
and it's onto the next thing, you know. So I
think there's a little bit of wrestler's feeling like factory workers,
high paid factory workers living a glamorous life in a
lot of ways, but obviously putting their lives on the line,
or they're they're well being on the line. Well hopefully
not their lives too often. But although j D mcdonne

(01:06:20):
almost did almost said, jeez, he's so good, but man
does he He's like the Mikey Whipwreck of of the
modern eras like is he gonna is he gonna make it?
So yeah, I think part of it is just like yeah,
just you know, show up, hit the hit the time, clock,
do your thing, and that's how you're beating the system.

(01:06:40):
These executives are making a ton of money, and the
wrestlers know they're gonna get really good pay, but they're
not gonna get, you know, the share that they'd fight
that that they could fight for if they actually were
collectively work you know, if they were you know, collectively
working together to make sure that they got what is
truly their fair share. But they're making so much money

(01:07:01):
they don't need the person who rocks the boat and
then has to go work for a w or or
you know, ends up wherever ride back ended up, you know,
and right back just a random name to pick if
someone who was a star until he wasn't, not that
he like took a stand and got ostracized or anything. Right, Yeah,
So I think that plays into some upunk's performances. Well,
look at the card, what do you what do you
expect to happen in that match?

Speaker 3 (01:07:23):
It's just somehow, some way, Chef Kaine, you know, I
I don't know exactly how I hope it's not. Well,
there's no there's no disqualifications in a four way, so
we're gonna hear it comes through I don't need that.
Do something clever and maybe it is night melt Down
and maybe we get a heel journey. Yeah, you know,
I could see that. I think they are in a

(01:07:45):
pretty good I'm trying to think of what the other
what the rest of the baby faces are like on
that brand, if they need if there's a need for
a third or if there's somebody that that can fill
that slot. I mean there must have been, because well,
I guess before what they basically trade La Knight and
then Sammy went to SmackDown. So yeah, I guess Elle

(01:08:06):
Knight's kind of playing that third role. I don't know
that anyone else really, anyone jump out to you. I
don't have the roster in front of me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
By third rode me and third baby face. Yeah yeah,
I'm looking at at the roster with Reed and Breaker
and the kind of dom and balor Gunther.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Ol Gunther he may be. I mean, I don't know
what he's coming back to, the baby face, but I
could see that. Yeah. Then, yeah, I don't think you
need l A. Knight to be you know, a baby face,
because then he basically moved down to the four spot.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Yeah, and then you got you know, Seamus and Recep.
Who should be part of the conversation here in terms
of utility, guys who you know do you think, for instance,
the way the promboles were framed last night, that we're
headed to a Seamous Recep tag team, or like because
Shamus like I brought I brought this out in you
give me credit, But it wasn't like hostile. It was
sort of like there's something there and I want to
bring it out in you. And it sort of feels

(01:09:03):
like a you know, the bar type situation. You know,
it's kind of rerunning the greatest hits, but with Rusev
or no that that Seamus stays babyface. It just sort
of a legacy number seven baby face on the roster
type guy. And maybe Russev wins the feud and ends
up moving up and they you know, I mean, like
a if they push goonther excuse me, if they push

(01:09:24):
Russev effectively as a heel and can make it seem
like he's actually in the ecosystem and not just a
guy who sends in tapes from a dark room, as
Sham has pointed out. And actually, you know, I mean
it does doesn't feel like he's part of the roster.
Like I in my mind, Rusev has never met any
of the other wrestlers backstage other than Seamus, you know,
like and and so. But if if gnther turns Babyface

(01:09:45):
a goother Face Russev, he'll match up. I want to
see if they're both motivated that that's that's that would
be an intriguing matchup of styles. But you could also
flip it, you know, keep goother heel and have russoko
baby Face as a tag team but eventually get a
singles push. That's an intriguing man for me, for instance.
So anyway, what do you think they're doing with Shamus
and stuff?

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Right now? I'm just wanting to be over. I'm disappointed
by that feud. It's just been so okay, here's the brawl.
They're gonna brow some more and they're gonna keep wronging.
I mean, it's what you would kind of expect from
those guys. But there's just been something missing, and I
don't know what it is. I went into this so
excited and you can't we're wrapping it up with a

(01:10:28):
good old fashioned Donnybrook. It's just so sports in or
till were gonna get the picture of the Shaman's grandma,
which was funny the first time, and they just keep
rolling it out for these matches. It's just kind of
doesn't mean it's gonna be a bad match. It just
kind of feels like a corny conclusion to it. Should
have been a really gritty program between these two and
kind of was, but it just was repetitive. And so

(01:10:49):
as far as putting them together as a team, well,
they don't have anything else going in that tag division,
so why not. And yeah, I mean I wouldn't mind
seeing Breaker and Reid get a run of the tag
title and those two feuding with them would actually be
able to last.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
Yeah, really, yeah, I could like that. I want to
talk about the Cody verse, and then you had like
the Elite group in aw and like everybody kind of
had their little little pockets where they just in Moxy
feuds with his friends. You know, he likes he likes
powerhouse hops, so let's do another match. It's a little
bit like that, like Seamus sort of has the Shamous verse,
and it's like, I'm gonna do Donna Brooks and just

(01:11:24):
bring me up, bring me a guy who I can
get into a brawl with and it's kind of you know,
the best of and I you know, I don't want
to see Russev and Alistair Black end up in the
same place that they were in aw but we kind
of are at this point where there I don't think
there's a sense with like Alistair Black, like oh he
I can't wait to see him against top main event wrestlers.

(01:11:45):
I think there's it, just it feels like he's kind
of in the spot he's going to be in, you know,
which is a Damien Priest level guy. I hope he
visits main events, and I hope we see a motivated
main event guy who's well defined with crowds reacting very
distinctively one way or the other. Two of them, but
right now, russeven Black sort of feel like they've just
merged into the you know, kind of mid card you know,

(01:12:06):
upper mid card lane, but there's not a sense of
them on a journey to try to achieve more. And
I think that's essential for fans to get invested in somebody.
Or that's slightly over saying, because couldn't get into people
for different reasons, but for people in the Russ of
Alistair Black category, you want a sense that they are
aspiring to be the top people in the company and

(01:12:28):
win a world title, and you don't want to pay
lip service to it too early. So I know it's
kind of a delicate balance between getting ahead of yourself.
But because of their history and that health things have
gone so far, it doesn't feel that way with either
of them.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
No, it doesn't. I think Black is probably on the rise.
I know who the russef is. I guess we'll see
what his next program is coming out of this shamish thing.
I think that would be very telling. It is strange,
and it's all done backstage for whatever reason. With him,
he's been a good on aw when he would cut
promos in the ring, I thought he was. I think

(01:13:01):
he would get it that occasionally, and he was pretty
good at memory serves. So I don't know that it's
an issue with that. I mean, I know he had
Lana for a long time, but yeah, it's just I
don't know if they If it was we let these
two go for a reason, and aw, let these two
go for a reason. Let's test the waters before we
get to before we commit too much to these guys.

(01:13:23):
And if that's the case, I understand, but I am
kind of surprised that it's just been what it's been
for both of them. That I didn't expect them to
be just main event players or anything like that. But
I thought they both would have felt like they mattered
more than they do right now.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Yeah, yeah, all right, Roman and Bronson, let's talk about that.
What Bronson Reid has been impressive. People think very highly
of him, and I think came in as like taking
pride and getting something out of him and giving him
a boost. And the sneaker gimmick is fun. He's always
been a good talker, but he didn't have enough to
talk about or a sense of purpose and a sense
of gravitas that that he had. So, you know, as

(01:14:00):
much as the Seth Hayman chemistry isn't where I would
ideally like to see it or think it's been with
Hayman in the past, Bronson Reed is benefiting from this,
and I'm curious if Roman, like I don't think Roman
is a political I think Roman's advice to Jay is
insight into Roman's head, like you're not here for the boys,

(01:14:21):
You're not here for the fans, You' here for your family,
and you take what you can and you and then
you go home with it. Make sure you know, like
I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
Wrote that way one of the documentaries that they did.
I mean, who knows how much he was being himself there,
but I if he was there then yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
And I think he's unapologetically seize this as a business
and it leaked through when he was being a babyface.
Who couldn't you know, even fake telling the fans your
your support booies me and it is important and gives
me a boost. That was such a key, you know,
for Hogan and Bread and I mean just so many
top baby faces over the years, Bruno Sammartino, on and
on Vernkany. I mean there was just like oh you

(01:14:56):
you you fuel me your cheers and Roman couldn't eve
get himself to fake it. And I think the promo
J was a window with him. Yeah, I mean, I
just do what I'm told to hope to get rich,
you know. I mean he does, he does not filter
that that that's his approach. But I also don't think
that he's as a selfish political animal like so many
people in the top spot are. I don't think he

(01:15:18):
thinks like Kevin Nash, haul Cogan seth Rawland see a
punk where it's punk to maybe punks in a kind
of a weird different category, but where you go where
it's like a oh shoot, I'm forgetting the term, where
there's only there's only the pie is only so big

(01:15:40):
and I getta get my share, and it's a there's
this set amount for to have and I'm gonna grab
all I can. I don't think Roman sees it that way.
I think he sees it as you can expand the
pie through generosity or you know, being ironically being a
little bit more of a team player while looking out
for himself, because he's smart enough to see that that
will I'll end up with more as a result. And

(01:16:02):
so my point in that is, I don't think and
also he respects the hell out of Paul Hayman advice.
It's mutual, and Bronson Reed is a Hayman would be
managing him if you didn't thin higlie of him and
think there's purpose. So I think Roman will also want
to make sure he doesn't just bury Bronson Reid no
matter what's presented to him by producers or Leveck or whatever.
I think Roman, out of respect to Haman and An
appreciation for what for Reid is gonna actually want to

(01:16:25):
have Read come out a bigger star in this, no
matter what the finish is and how the finish comes about.
That's my take on that. Do you think I'm being
accurate generous reading too much? But I'll just say I'm
intrigued by that aspect of this. Does is he just
eat up Bronson and spit him out because he's the
third guy in a faction and that's what he's there for.

(01:16:46):
Or does Read come out of this where people go, ah, Bronson.
Reid really he held his own in either winning with
some cheating or losing but looking like he was in
Roman's league.

Speaker 3 (01:17:00):
And the finish would be that Roman does go over,
but there's a major postmatch attack because I think Roman
goes away to shoot the movie and you know, because
of his dates and everything else after this, so it
wouldn't be at all surprised if it's okay, Roman gets
the win, but Reid kind of gets wins the overall
battle this time, and then Roman's got something hot to

(01:17:21):
come back to. I think Read special and they need
they need to quit looking at him as the third
man if they are in that faction It shouldn't be
he's the number one guy or the number two. It
just should be we think very highly of him, and
in fact, we need to go find a fourth guy
for this faction because we're gonna need some people to
take loss and someone to take losses, and it shouldn't
be Bronze and Red and so Yeah, I really think

(01:17:43):
they have something with him, and it would be a
mistake just to have Roman win and move on, and
I don't think that will happen. I hope it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:17:52):
Yeah, Yeah, I hope it doesn't either. Anytime you're watching
ww E Raw or SmackDown or AW Dynamite in particular,
send us an email if you've got thoughts on the
show or a topic you want us to address, or
a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch
dot com, Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's

(01:18:13):
anything else going on in pro wrestling that you want
us to address on our main podcast during our Mailbank segments,
that same email applies Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch
dot com. We invite that interaction, let us know what
you think of what we're saying, and let us know
what you want us to talk about and ask us
specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com.

(01:18:34):
Do you what do you think about take on Roman's approach?
Does it match kind of your your observations of the
what we see on TV, what you hear, what you
see in terms of interviews and that kind of thing.
That he's not as much of a political animal, even
if he is rather blunt, and that advice to Jay
is sort of a window into his actual mindset.

Speaker 3 (01:18:55):
If he is, he's done a really nice job of
protecting that, or he's for a long time he had
Hayman to be the bad cop. I don't know, but yeah,
I don't. I don't get the sense that he isn't.
I do think he cares more than we thought he
did for a long time there, you know, with that
whole line about doing what he's told and getting rich. Yeah,

(01:19:18):
I think what proved it was when he and Hayman
just came up with the Bloodline stuff and wanted to
have content that was as good as some of the
stuff that they were seeing on Netflix or what have you,
HBO at the whatever it was. And because if you
are just going through the motions, you're not doing that.
And you know, I don't know how much of it

(01:19:41):
was Roman and his brain coming up with any of
this if it was Paul, but clearly Roman has enough
stroke that he was able to along with him and
get all this through back when Vince was there, and
you know that that takes a lot, and I mean
obviously has a tremendous influence. I it's crazy. It's crazy

(01:20:01):
to me he got the schedule that he did when
he did because at the time that he was given
this schedule, he was still kind of a slam and
a miss like he was. Yeah, he was still good,
and he was popular to a point, but he wasn't
the big slam dunk, home run king babyface that you
know mitchby fan thought he was for all those years.
He needed the heel turn and so all of a

(01:20:23):
sudden he gets this reduced schedule, Like, wow, you're you're
doing that for for Roman? Huh. I was surprised, But
since Danny's more than earned it, it turned out to
be good for him and I think it actually for
a long time probably helped him too, help him stay fresh.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Yeah, I think Roman thought with Hayman and the bloodline.
There was a point, and we're getting to that point
in our five years ago flashback episodes. It's fun our
flagship and the and the post shows or we're covering that,
and so it's kind of fun to relive our initial
reactions to that and and you know the dynamic going
on with with with Roman and Haman and and Hayman.

(01:21:03):
You know, made reference to it that it's the five
year anniversary of that. So I'm I'm I'm curious where
where if Roman ever in the future, kind of if
he writes a book or does something really long for him,
if if there's a if there's something a little more
revealing about Hayman getting him excited to be part of
history and being doing something important, especially in the in

(01:21:26):
the context of the pandemic too when when it was happening.
But yeah, we've got our flagship flashback coming up. I
think we'll be dropping it next week where it's we're
talking about the new Reigns Hayman Alliance, and I think
one of our shows that we did is going to
be coming up talking about that too. And uh, I'm

(01:21:48):
looking at.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
It and I can tell you what my reaction was.
It's about damn time. I mean, how long did it
wasn't just us, it was here so many people going,
this guy needs to current feel like that, that's what
it's to take, and Vince just would not budge all
their rock set it. Sometimes you need to be a
heel before you can be a babyface or whatever the

(01:22:08):
line was on Twitter, and it's like, yes, it's what
we've been saying. And think back to all the pushback
that people within that company game publicly. I know road
Dog was one of them. I mean, some of that
stuff should be embarrassing to them that they were sitting there,
whether they believed it or they were just trying to
score points with Vince, But it was pretty damn pathetic

(01:22:31):
that there were so many people justifying this failed babyface
when all they needed was the heel turned so he
could get back to being a really strong babyface.

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
Yeah yep, Okay, So let's shift to the women side
of things on the show. Becky Lynch, Nicky Bella. I'm trying.
I've been trying to figure out how to interpret how
I feel about Nicky.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
I know, I thought she would just back, like for
a want of off or something. Oh she's here, Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
And like there's there's something about her where she seems
a little confused because she thought she was a bigger
deal than she was. Like I think there's this like
I'm Nicki Bella and my fans are here, and it's
like everybody's moved on, and they don't look at de
Bella's as like a great women's era, And she presents
herself as if it would be like Becky Lynch taking

(01:23:23):
five years off and coming back five years from now,
and I don't think that's in step with all the
fans feel about her. And then there's sort of a
try hard aspect to her promos and her clever lines,
where you're like, oh, I see who someone wrote that for.
You thought hard about it, you thought it would be
a singer, and it's just not quite there. It's not
quite like an intentionally bad dad joke, but it comes
across a not quite landing the way that she her

(01:23:46):
body language suggests she thinks it will. All that said,
I don't think she's been bad, no, So yeah, Like
I mean, she's trying hard. It's not just try hard,
she's actually genuinely trying hard and I appreciate that. And
there's kind of a and I think she's been a
decent foil to Becky, So yeah, tell me what you
think of this building.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):
Yeah, I think in her defense, she is a big
deal with some fans. It's just I don't think it's
the fan base that's listening to this podcast and you know,
buying large to the insider fans if you will. But
there was a whole total Diva's rush that they definitely
gained some popularity there. I mean you can see it.

(01:24:29):
You could see it in the crowd, which is I
was surprised going to I think it was a house show,
Like just how many people there were girls dressed up
as Nicky Bella back and like, wow, okay, I wish
you would have kind of shaken up the look a
little bit. When she came back, I get like, it's
this And that's part of the reason I thought, Okay,
it's just a he's just back for a quick little
run because she's still wearing the old gear and she

(01:24:51):
thinks she'd shake it up if she's gonna stick around.
But maybe it'll happen. I just you know, I don't
know which one of these young lions is gonna take
this stepping Stone title here. What's the purpose of the
women's Intercontinental title if it's just going to be veterans
fighting over I know, I think it was just going
to be poor and we're going to try to elevate

(01:25:11):
some younger talent and Okay, Becky want it, that's fine,
you can. There's somebody a younger talent can beat her.
And no, now she's feuding with uh with Nikki and
she just got done working. It's tall. Yeah, and it's
kind of way they're doing this.

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
The same thing crossed my mind because I'm like, oh, yeah,
they're fighting over Oh, that's right, the secondary title, Like
because the way you know it's Nicky Bell, it's Becky Lynch,
it feels like it's it's one of the too, one
of the two major women's titles, and it's no, it's
one of the secondary titles, intercutal title, and so yeah,
I had that moment where I'm like, why is why?
Why is a quote legend coming back like Nicki and

(01:25:47):
then just super talented, top tier star like Becky. Why
are they fighting over the secondary title? It's like if
Romans suddenly and or Cody suddenly in an inter title
feud or see them punk, it's like, no, no, you
get a point where you don't do that anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:26:02):
Yeah, it does feel a little beneath them. And I
think Becky could have leaned into almost hogging the title.
That's meant for the second, you know, for the for
the younger talent, and that could have she could have
leaned into that as part of her character. It could
have been fun. I'm surprised she hasn't done that. But
I mean the mash itself, I don't expect greatness, but

(01:26:26):
it's it's it's fun. You know. What is it the
Bell Weather fans that you're always Yeah, that's the audience
that I don't think is like behind Nikki. But I
do think there's a lot of casuals, a lot of
female fans there, and so yeah, I think that's why
she maybe comes off the way she does. And she
has had some success outside of this with different television

(01:26:48):
shows and she has her podcast and all of that. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's nice that she's back, and
but I I don't silly see any reason to do
a title change here and then back. He's been fun,
maybe too fun as a heel, because I don't think
there's a whole lot of heat there other than Kelly otporn. Yeah, yeah,

(01:27:10):
come on, really, come on. I'm sorry your gud passed,
but I know you're scent toive. But that was not
anything about your father. It was, if anything, it was respectful.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Yes, yes, I have. I have enjoyed all the local
the local humor that just goes over my head. I'm like,
I'm not even gonna look it up or try. But
it's just crowds reacting and it's fun. And but that
would obviously lands on both continents. And when he use
it from bell Weather for clarification, that is, I'm talking
about the fans, because a bell Weather is like leading
the sheep of a flock with a bell on its neck.

(01:27:41):
That's like the definition. It's an indicator, predictor or something.
So when I say bell Weather fan, what I mean
is they're the vocal ones who the other fans follow
because they're like, oh, those people seem like they know
what they're talking about, and they're reacting in a certain way.
Let's now react the way they do. And so I
don't they I don't think they like Nick. I mean,
I don't think they did slagger. But I don't think
they're like really excited she's back. Yeah, And so they're

(01:28:04):
the fans who want to be the smartest in the room,
in the most vocal and are the smartest and the
most enthusiastics sometimes and oftentimes can kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
I mean, I don't want to put them over because
sometimes they're they're doing things that irritate me. Like the
most vocal fans are kind of irritating. But sometimes they're
the ones who watch the product enough to not buy
the BS or the story w he's telling, and instead
they they are the ones you should kind of listen
to because a bunch of the rest of the fans
are going to follow them. Sure, And sometimes they're the
ones doing this is awesome and fight forever. And other
times they're the ones who are actually calling w B

(01:28:37):
out or aw oud on some things that they that
they shouldn't be doing, and they're expressing themselves in a
way that managements will listening to because then the other
fans kind of follow suit.

Speaker 3 (01:28:45):
If you can get rid of one crowd chant, which
one would it be? Ooh, there's a list of cheers
fromaism there.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
I mean, the first one that comes to mind is
this is awesome because it's the most prominent and frequent,
and it's so symptomatic of it's irritating because I think
wrestlers and promoters and fans just think who could be
against that? Your audience, your customers are saying you're awesome,

(01:29:13):
and I run into the I just I feel like
I run into a wall a little bit on this,
because it's like, just because that's always been a thing
as long as you've been watching wrestling and WWE social
media thinks it's great, doesn't mean there aren't people who
don't actually fully understand this business, who aren't positions of
power making it seem like this is what you're looking for.
It's like the whole argument of oh scene is getting a response.

(01:29:33):
Any response is a good response. No, any response is
better than no response. But any response is not better
than the optimum response, which is the way you portray
them on TV is how the fans actually react, and
that is not happening with Roman. It was not happening
with Sena. They wanted one reaction and they were getting
a different one. Don't gaslight me by saying you're equally
happy that the half the audience or two thirds of
the audience are booing, or a whole demographic is booing

(01:29:55):
your top babyface. That is a problem, you know it is.
Don't gaslight me by saying you're happy they're respond in
any way. But Sina told himself that I think after
a while, Roman knew better. These days I do, oh
totally yeah. And and and that's the thing. I mean,
just because somebody's on TV and they're a talented wrestler
doesn't mean they understand the business they're in. There's a
lot of people who don't. And so I think a

(01:30:16):
lot of people think of this as awesome jent, as
a sign of success. And you know, you look at
MVP and just what a disaster he's been in a
w in terms of just you know, not not understanding
the importance of being a heal in a face, don't
bury your opponent before you wrestle them. Have a consistent
tone to a tone and a constitution to your character
when you're in color commentaire and a promo. And he

(01:30:36):
comes across to somebody where none of that stuff has
ever crossed his mind, or he's just so in it
for himself he doesn't care. And and there's there's people
have been around that long, but they were like he
dropped into the industry and in a really down time
and that kind of that that mid two thousands decade
when everyone's trying to find themselves and it was just
a point of transition in a mess. And now you

(01:30:57):
have people who are in the era of social media.
Attention means you're successful instead of selling tickets and getting
the desired crowd reaction that fits your character in a
heel face dynamic home team away team. And so this
is awesome. I will choose, although you might sway me
by bringing up a couple others on your list as
the one that's most common and just most symptomatic of
a really screwed up way that wrestlers gauge whether they're

(01:31:22):
sucessful or not, or whether a match is successful or not.

Speaker 3 (01:31:25):
I think that's probably highest on my list too. You
summed it up well, I mean, it's supposed to be
a simulated sport, and think of any sport you like,
a fourth quarter, third period, whatever, and it's been just
a great game and it's coming down to the wire,
and let's say the away team has the ball to

(01:31:46):
punt whatever. The fans aren't channing this is awesome. They're
channing defense because they want to see their team win.
That's why it's just like they're not I've never been
to any sporting event. No matter how good the game was,
you get that kind of a reaction from the crowd.
You might talk about how awesome it was after the game.

(01:32:06):
During the game. No, you're doing that's what they should
be striving for.

Speaker 1 (01:32:10):
And that's the great clarifiers you when when you're done.
Sometimes your team loses and you're going home from the
game with your your friends or you're texting your friends.
If you watch that home, you're like, I know, we lost,
but my god, that was that was a ride. Yeah,
that was a wild wright. That was great. That was
so much fun because sometimes you win and it was
kind of boring, but you're glad they won and you're
riding for him to win. But like, that wasn't a
great game. So but you're right, it's afterwards. But you

(01:32:31):
want people emotionally invested in the outcome. And and that's
why these these you know, these why I want Levec
to be a brave booker. You know, like do brave
books have people do clean jobs and you know, you'll survive,
and it protects the integrity of the fact that when
the bell rings in these moves are happening, all that matters.
When you hype the main event, there will be an
outcome that changes the course of a career in a

(01:32:53):
small or big way. And when you take that away,
you are conditioning your audience to simply a value whether
they were entertained in an ephemeral way in the moment,
but not in a way that's consequential to what happens next,
and other than oh, the heels are interfering, but even
that they screw up, because then the announcer goes, oh,
the enginety and the cleverness of the heels, did you

(01:33:14):
take them out of the rules? Like there's so many
just things fundamentally wrong about the core structure of wrestling
as a simulated sport.

Speaker 7 (01:33:22):
And so yeah, are you a fan of AW looking
to sit back, relax and listen to some like minded
podcasters who share your passion?

Speaker 4 (01:33:37):
Do you want to be topped off the ledge after
a segment that has you wondering what the heck are
they thinking?

Speaker 7 (01:33:42):
Do you want to join a discussion on what AW
is doing right and what they could do to improve,
then join me.

Speaker 4 (01:33:48):
Joel and me Greg for the All E THEE Conversation
Club every Friday on the PW torch Live Cast. Fee
search pw Torch in your podcast app and subscribe to
pw torch Daily Cast our streamer shows directly from pw
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Speaker 1 (01:34:17):
But what what's what are a couple of runner up
chants that that are on your list?

Speaker 3 (01:34:21):
We want tables?

Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
Yeah, I was about to say myself, ye yeah, And it's.

Speaker 3 (01:34:25):
Just because there's so many times where it's like you're
going to get them just to settle down, and they're
just starting to settle down. I mean, I'm Surprisab You're
probably an example of them doing it during a tables match,
Like it just becomes so cliche, like just relax, it's
going to happen. They know you want tables. I mean,
I get it, it's it's just become if you go

(01:34:47):
to a show, I think there's at some point the
fans just want to pant that. It's one of those chants.
I'm trying to think.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
But you know what you know what, but that wrestling
wrestlers and promoters should see that as a sign of failure,
because you want fans on the edge of their seat
worried about how the babyface is going to do in
their match. You don't want them sitting there going this
is my chance to be at a Rocky Horror Picture
show and participate in a line like that? Is that
is It is better than nothing, But it is an
inferior crowd investment in the product than people on the

(01:35:16):
edge of their seats waiting to see if a title
changes hands in a way that they're hoping for or
hoping against and or or few to settled in a
certain way. If you create a believable world where we
can't hear people's voices in their own frickin' heads, and
you create a structure where match outcomes are not blown
off because well, you got to see a good match
and that's all that matters. And hey, Roman Rain showed

(01:35:36):
up on advertise, so that's all that matters. And I
know that's a rationalization. I've heard it. Well, listen, did
you listen to the crowd after we didn't give them
a finished in the main event? They were so happy
to see impunk of Roman reigns. It didn't matter like
of course it mattered. Of course it matters. You can
still even have a crowd popping for a star showing up.
Of course it's going to happen. But in their mind,
you know, if you have TV made events with non
finishes or farcical rules where finishes don't count constantly, now

(01:36:00):
people are gonna if they're going to rationalize and be
invested in wrestling, they're going to do it for a
reason that's much less immersive, which is I want to
see cool moves, and I want to see ring entrances
and boom periods happen when people get into the journey
of a wrestler who they're either for or against. Bloodline
Cody Rhodes. Samy's saying Jay who. So those are the
most recent examples Raya Ripley.

Speaker 3 (01:36:20):
And these people need to figure out if they're really
defending that, that it's not just about the live crowd. Yeah,
that's right, absolutely, because you can be at home and
I got this Again's show once twice a year. Cool
Roman rangees here, we got to see Roman. Of course
you're going to be happy, but that same reaction at
home is it can be very different.

Speaker 1 (01:36:42):
Absolutely. It's why we listen to albums and not concert
audio for our favorite albums, you know, like we just
want the best music in our you know, blaring through
the speakers of the car and our earbuds. We don't
want to hear crowds cheering and local references by the
rock band going you guys are great in the crowd
and that's yeah, yeah, and the crowd chatting this is

(01:37:02):
the song we want, and it's like, no, we still
want to hear the music, like so no, you're totally right.
There are things that should be happening, by the way,
the off air, that are happening on air. And it's
kind of kind of came up and rad last night.
I mean, Roman kind of endured the crowd chants and
you know, Seth, Seth doesn't seem to know, like he
just saw they're saying about song. Yeah this is great.
But Roman, it's sort of like he's appreciating it and

(01:37:22):
it feels different than in the past and all that,
but it's kind of it comes a point where it's like,
let's just get on with it, Like there's a show
to be had and the crowds. There was a novelty
to it when it was infrequent, but now the crowds
are just making it so much about themselves and the
singing and all that, and it's like it might be
kind of fun to be there. I honestly, if I
was there, I'd probably just want like, shut up, let's

(01:37:45):
I'm here, I'm here to pay wrestlers. Not here here
random random audience sing.

Speaker 3 (01:37:50):
Yeah. I used to look forward to the overseas shows,
and then I still do. You know, the crowds are
very passionate. They don't get wrestling as much, and that's great.
But Bailey song, it was cute the first four hundred
times you guys did it over in the UK. Every
now you're like changing the words for other people. And
this new one where they sing the name the first time,

(01:38:13):
I like, okay, I got I hope this doesn't catch
on and hacid yep.

Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
And but but Doughby is pointing the camera at the fans,
making the fans think it's about them, and that's that's perilous.
I mean, it comes with the price, and it seems
like how could you be how could you watch that
show and not think how special it was that the
crowd is so excited to see Roman rays, but it
reaches a point where the crowd is making it about themselves.

(01:38:39):
It's the it's the you know, the studio audience that
goes every week, you know syndrome where it's like you
get in a feedback loop or you don't even know
if the products good anymore because the NXT fans who
attending every week they're brand loyal, or the ones who
are attending the Global Dome they were or the.

Speaker 3 (01:38:55):
Fife Impact Zone was definitely sad. Example, I don't feel
like it's as bad as you NXT crowd, but it
really was with TNA for a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:39:02):
Yeah, And and like Dixie Carter got a really bad
feedback loop. She listened to the fans in the first
three rows and thought, we're doing great. And she didn't
look at the fact that the fifteenth row was empty
and the sixteenth throws empt because of people in the
first three rows were feeding her bowl. They were fanboys
who were like, you're doing great, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:39:19):
And it was from talking with people in TNA back then.
It was who was nicest to those fans outside the building,
you know, that's who there were definitely some wrestlers I
won't even bothered aways saying, but there were definitely some
people that would get cheered and chance that really aren't
that over, but they were very nice to those fans
outside of the building.

Speaker 1 (01:39:37):
I mean, uh, you deserve it. I could do without that.

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
Yeah, I like that the wrestlers are not countering that,
hopefully that you would think at some point right the
more it's like no I earned it, or you know, whatever,
the whatever, however they combat it wouldn't make them stop.
I mean, it's it's all respect. They're all trying to
have fun. I'm not trying to be a curmudget just
like crapping on fans fans, but yeah, I mean it
is like just when you're watch enough wrestling, some of

(01:40:02):
this starts to irritate you, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:40:05):
Yeah, and it's it. And I'm cognizant of the perception
of your being curmudgeony if you don't just sit back
and enjoy this. But there just is a time where
it's like, let's just let's play the movie. Let's not
have people chanting the director's name and chanting the actor's name,
and and it like, you know, like let's I just
want to settle in and watch the movie. And it

(01:40:27):
is interactive, but there's a tipping point where it becomes
self indulgent, and you know what it the watch chance
don't seem as bad as I now as they have
been in the past, but they're still at risk. And
that's certainly the most irritating of all but not at
the at the top of my list at the moment.
But I you know, I did Roman could just be like, okay, gotcha,
we got We've got things to do here, you know,

(01:40:47):
like I would like I would like him a little
sooner to cut it off. But I know there's.

Speaker 3 (01:40:52):
Maybe I'm reading it wrong way, but there's times where
I kind of when I see Cody Rhoades and and
they're like singing his name, where I kind of get
the impression like he's like, okay, great, can.

Speaker 1 (01:41:01):
I do too? Yeah, I've gotten that feeling too.

Speaker 3 (01:41:03):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
It's like all right, all right, because the rustlers are like,
you're here to hear me talk. I'm not here to
listen to you sing right right honestly, you know. So,
I mean I think fans are being you know, kind
of rude and self indulgent and self centered and whatever
without realizing.

Speaker 3 (01:41:19):
In most cases, I would say, and if.

Speaker 1 (01:41:21):
You want, have the doors open half hour early and
have wrestlers come out and go sing. We're here to
listen to you sing, but when the TV show starts,
shut up, get it out of your system. Or say,
after the show's over, we're gonna have a rock concert
and you guys are the stars, so we're gonna point
the microphone at you. But for now, you react to
what we say. We're not going to react to what
you're chanting and singing. Was it? I was a bob

(01:41:44):
mold at first avenue was like in the front row
and somebody shouted, play this song, and he just held
up his He held up his uh the playlist. He goes,
I decide what I play, and he just held up
his playlist, Like, shut up, I am the rock star.
I am not. You're not deciding my play list, my
song list tonight. He was a curmach but talented all right.

Speaker 3 (01:42:06):
Related, So there you go, folks.

Speaker 1 (01:42:08):
Yes, so Becky nick for anyone who didn't know, Becky
beats Necky, Becky Lynch beats Nicky Bella, I think so yeah, yeah,
uh cool, Okay, Well we just had at Lease pay
per view on Sunday Forbidden Door a wild uh main
event take match, but you also, as the dust settles,

(01:42:29):
you've got does Swerve have a legit kN injury?

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
Yes? Yeah yeah, I mean I think it's been reported
he's undergoing surgery tomorrow.

Speaker 1 (01:42:37):
Yeah yeah. It's like that's one of my sumps, always was.
And some people like, oh no, we just did that
to explain, like why is losing to a cotta is
Like I don't think that's the case, So good, thank
you for that.

Speaker 3 (01:42:45):
Up now THEI it on too thick, Like okay, I
already thought oct It was winning because he just won
this title. But now you're like, keep reminding me that
Swerves injury, Like thanks, guys, wait to get obvious.

Speaker 1 (01:42:57):
Well, and I think that's where some people are like,
is this just an explain to try to quote protect
Swerve so you have Swerve surgery. You got uh will
As Bracton like he's just you know his neck is
is he's talking like he's you know, donamite kid headed
for a wheelchair in six months or or tomorrow. And
you got Kenny Omega, you know who already is on
the you know, privileged schedule out of necessity or or

(01:43:23):
seniority or whatever it is, where he's not a weekly fixture.
You know, it's it's not you know's you know we
talk about the three only seeing three of the top
seven stars when you go to a RAR SmackDown same
thing with a w You know, the Bucks are showing
it more often now, which is good. And I think
doing you know, they're they're doing work that shows they're
invested in their character and you know, they can't help
but have a little tongue in cheek comedy to what

(01:43:44):
they're doing. I mean that that's that's the natural lane
they'd like to be in.

Speaker 3 (01:43:46):
But but I think for a change, it's not exactly
oh god, that's a corny This is actually fun. Yes,
all the entrance stuff that they that they're just being
picked on, it's a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:43:58):
Yeah. And then they're they're super talented in their credit
in their matches too, So there's a mix that I
think is working. But yeah, I mean just Kenny Osprey
and Swerve kind of decimates that that quote problem of
the baby face step chart and who do we go with?
And you know, it is a bit of rotation, and
I mean there is an aspect of come on, everyone's

(01:44:19):
been saying to you, guys, slow down, and they just
want the sixth and seven star rating in their match
to their detriment. And now aw's, you know, in part
in great part because of needless wear and tear from
excessively dangerous and excessive density of high spots in individual
matches and excessive length to matches. Now they're without some

(01:44:42):
really valuable top stars, and I you know, I'm sorry,
I'm not. I just I'm consistently not somebody who and
it's one of the reasons I just, you know, you've
never been a star rating guy. Some other reasons. I
moved away from it because I just I don't like
star ratings being how many crazy ass high spots did
you do forty minutes when you could have done one

(01:45:02):
fourth as many spots in twenty two minutes and had
a match that I liked better that will also allow
you to wrestle five extra years, and giving a high
star rating to something that was needless, excessive, dangerous, and
in shortening a career. It feels like it's a system
that's outlived it's worth.

Speaker 3 (01:45:21):
No matter how many times you say I did, it's
not for me, and it's dangerous, but it still gave it,
you know, way too many stars.

Speaker 1 (01:45:27):
Yes, yeah, like going well, and you're saying, I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:45:31):
Just saying there's there's people that will champion with the
those types of matches. Well, also claiming that, you know,
it's it's too much, but I'm also going to really
rate it way too high.

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):
That's the thing. And I and I've been there. It's
like god, I mean, it's completely ill advised and it's excessive,
but it was amazing and it was a great adventure.
But I mean it's like a movie that is best
clocking it in an hour forty minutes that instead goes
to hours twenty minutes and it has four times as
many high speed chases or you know whatever the equivalent

(01:46:03):
of that isn't in an action It's like, no, you
need to have some pacing. It's what you do in
between those scenes. It's character building. It's sell it's selling,
it's it's it's building up, it's it's pacing things. And yeah,
so so now they're paying a price, and and now
they're they're in a you know, less less less than
ideal spot in that sense. I mean, hang Man is
a great lead, babyface. They've got Darby back and that

(01:46:26):
is good. But yeah, I mean, what what's your a
more broad question, but what's your assessment of aw coming
out of Forbidden Door as we head towards all out
next month.

Speaker 3 (01:46:35):
I got him a little concern just because of those
two major injuries. They didn't they had a stretch there
where they had some injuries previously and it's teamed like creatively,
things fell apart a little bit and they've been doing
pretty well lately. You know. I think they should be
getting Annie Kingston back pretty soon. I would think it's
it's been like over a year now, so I would
think that he that would help getting him back. But yeah,

(01:46:58):
anytime you lose to major baby base is at the
level of will Osprey and Swerves Strickland. That's that's big.

Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
And Kenny still you know.

Speaker 3 (01:47:06):
Yeah, yeah, and Nora's Cassidy is still sideline. He's been
a big player for them over the years. And Adam, Yeah,
I don't know that he ever completely clicked in a.

Speaker 1 (01:47:15):
W but hem'st all, like somebody who was on bench
player who could step up if he needed them. Sure,
that's kind of where I'm coming from.

Speaker 3 (01:47:21):
Yeah, yeah, and I don't know the details. I don't
think swerve. I think it's just meniscus. I don't want
you know, I mean any surgery is yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:28):
Yeah, so it's a little different than Osprey and Kenny
in that way.

Speaker 3 (01:47:30):
Yeah. I don't think it's a like an A c L.
He's going to be out for nine months to a
year or anything like that. But I don't know. I mean,
there's different as we learned with J. McCarthy, there's different
grades of meniscus and as far as the damage done
in this Evara all that. So hopefully it's you know,
just a quick recovery for him and that one. I

(01:47:52):
don't totally what you're talking about with the over the
top style. I don't blame him meniscus tear though, I
don't think in swarves case that can just happen as
it did with J. J. McCarthy and he still to
this day doesn't even know how it happened last year
during the preseason game.

Speaker 1 (01:48:06):
But there's somebody set of wear and tear over time.
You're fatigued in the match when you land on a
dive that maybe is the six dive in a match
that only needed two and you're so fatigued and you're
wrestling match that's longer than it needs to be at
his age even and now you're more susceptible to landing
in a way where that's why some people are more

(01:48:26):
injury prone than others, because they they fatigue or they
don't quite have the balance to land. So again, I'm
not diagnosed diagnosing it obviously specifically, but I don't want
to rule out that wrestling a thirty three minute match
when a twenty two minute match would work, and doing
six dives instead of two is in contributing.

Speaker 3 (01:48:43):
That's very fair, And they're believing there's been some spots
that he's done, like I think the doubles double stop
from the top rope to the floor. I'm like, oh
my god, why So yeah, you know, it could have
been something very simple, could have been something that caused it. It
could have been some major spot. We just don't know.
But yeah, I do worry a little bit about that
because I've liked what they've been doing for a while,

(01:49:06):
and it's you know, when you lose two major babyfaces,
who are those people that step up to replace them?
And like you said, Kenny just being inconsistently there it
looked like they're teasing us at Kanaskaakeshta, maybe turning it
to some point. But it's a w and it could
happen soon, but they tend to stretch a lot of

(01:49:27):
things out, and so I don't know that it's happening
like right away. Maybe out of necessity it will just
because of these injuries. But yeah, I mean it's an
opportunity for Tony to pick the right people and if
he does, for those people to step up, and I
don't even know who that would be. I mean, that's
that can replace those names, but yeah, it's I think hangman.

(01:49:49):
Page is doing a hell of a job as champion.
I don't know that he would have been champion if
Austbury didn't have this injury issue. So I guess in
a sense it worked out well for the company that
I think Austbury knew going in that you know something
was up and that I don't know if that had
if they were going to go Page anyway, I'm not sure,
but if it did, if that played a part, it

(01:50:09):
obviously helped him out. But Page is really I think
it just feels different. You and I were there when
he won that championship the first time we saw him afterward,
and I just felt just just watching him, I was surprised,
like there's not an aura here, There's just yeah, he
just kind of feels.

Speaker 1 (01:50:24):
Like, Well, I asked him, I said, you're going to
show up on Wednesday at Dynamite with a different kind
of feeling that you're the locker room leader, the world
champions I don't really thought of that. Yeah, it's just
like he didn't. He didn't see it as like a moment. Yeah.
And part of that is appeal, because he does come
across kind of an everyday guy who just you know,
but yeah, you want it. You want someone to you know,

(01:50:46):
we'll go ahead. You want someone to feel like there's
an or and they step up in the moment.

Speaker 3 (01:50:49):
Yeah, And I you know, I haven't been backstage to
see him since then, so I don't know if I
would feel the same way now, But just watching him
on TV, it feels like something's different. It does feel
like he is ready to time that he feels he
looks more confident and poised and all of that. And
so I think they have the title on the right
guy all things considered, right now, and it's just a

(01:51:09):
matter of finding the right opponents for him, and you
know who are those top heels, who are they going
to be? And I once you get through John Moxley,
and I would think, you know, that's they need to
be moving past that. Now. I didn't MJF and we
just said yes, mgfstill has that contract, but so he'll
get a title shot eventually. But it feels like it's

(01:51:31):
time to move on from both of those guys, and
so I don't know who's next.

Speaker 1 (01:51:40):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Progrestling
post show to find out what I thought of Monday
Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check out
my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and SmackDown
at pw torch dot com. I written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it'll also analyze key segments and give my random
thoughts endquips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:52:03):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to pw Torch, such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling,
and more. Check it out pw torch dot com, your

(01:52:24):
first stop for TV and pay per view written reports. Yeah, aw,
by the way, has not announced that I've seen on
social media or their website a single match for tomorrow night.

Speaker 3 (01:52:45):
We'll get it.

Speaker 1 (01:52:46):
Yeah, I don't know how important it is, but it
feels weird to not have that.

Speaker 3 (01:52:53):
I mean, maybe I couldn't say for sure, but I
think there's been some talk that people who have really
looked at the numbers and is that it does seem
like if they don't advertise things in advance, it does
hurt them quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:53:06):
But then sometimes in the viewership, and then sometimes coming
out of a big pay per view with all the travel,
it's more like we have to see who's available, and
we're too exhausted to book until Wednesday afternoon when we
all show up too, And so it's kind of a
product of an overseas show and a brutal show and
just seeing who's ready to go. And if you advertise
a bad lineup, that can maybe hurt more than leaving

(01:53:27):
it up to people's imaginations.

Speaker 3 (01:53:30):
And Tony may want to reconsider. I don't think he will,
but if you know, assuming he really does have major
duties responsibilities with the Jaguars, I've always kind of wondered
just how much he does there. But if he does,
I mean, today is the big cut day, and that
leads to Okay, now it's not just a matter of
the coaches decide who's cut. Now the front office needs
to go around and try to find people they want

(01:53:51):
to bring in from those cut So it's kind of
a hectic time. And so if it's overseas combined with that,
I get it, but you know, maybe you want to
kind of structure your schedule a little bit differently than
what you have to kind of avoid that. But I
just don't know how much he's doing with the jag
right now.

Speaker 1 (01:54:10):
Yeah, fortunately they have Tony Storm. You know, we talking
about the men's depth chart, But.

Speaker 3 (01:54:16):
Say that again, I'm concerned there also because who's next.
She's beating everybody that matters other than maybe Jamie Hayter
who's just coming back and is a fellow baby. But
you can do it, Matuch, But yeah, what's next?

Speaker 1 (01:54:29):
No good good point. So yes, generically speaking, it's good
to have a really popular aura, a top baby face
and the women's vision with an aura to her. Yeah,
and that's good, you know, And like Mercedes said in
the in the presser afterwards, he I want I want
people to know that the women's wrestling is the best
and we are number one. And it's just sort of

(01:54:49):
an eye roll too. It's like you're a heel who
should be worried about you You shouldn't. I mean even
I know the pressers is sort of this weird hybrid
thing of in character, not a character, but stop being
like an extent has a women's division. It's like, why
would NXT have the best women's division whenever in there
once get to raw SMACKDOWNE that doesn't make any sense
storyline wise. You can think that behind the scenes that

(01:55:09):
we do a better job booking them and there's more
depth and parody and variety like, but on television that
shouldn't be something that gets talked about. And I just
think at a presser, I don't know that fostering affection
for yourself by talking about raw raw AaB's women's division
is something in real time when you're a heel you
should be talking about.

Speaker 3 (01:55:29):
But yeah, I would rather that message come from one
of the baby faces. I think that would be better
for sure. Yeah, it's a good women's division. It's come
a long way that I don't know that they are
getting enough attention for that, just how far they've come,
because there was a time where you look at that roster,
it's like, gosh, there's, yeah, there's some talent here, but man,

(01:55:50):
they're not. They're getting that one match a week and
that was it. And there's weeks where yeah, that's all
you get is one women's match on Dynamite, But there's
also segments that they're getting on top of that, promos
and things, and yeah, it's it's been nice to see.

Speaker 1 (01:56:04):
What do you make of what's been going on with Hurtzidikit?
I was kind of critical of MVP, especially in some
of the stuff he did on commentary and promo work
and the mixed signals that fans were getting constantly both
from him and Shelton and Bobby and oh, I'm so
delighted at MGFF interfering in our matches. And I'm like, Mark,
put a pin in this because this is not they're
tolerating him, they are appreciating his interference, and then it's

(01:56:27):
like and then they abandoned it because of whatever behind
the scenes, and then it's like, oh, we're on you
from the beginning. And so it's just been a weird
thing with MGF and they've totally moved on from it,
which it's fine. Sometimes you just want to pull the
plug on things. But now, in a meta sense, I mean,
Hurts ind Akit, the belt Weather fan should be anti
Hurts Inndy Kit stopped cheering the suit wearing cool guys
from the WWE and realized they just walked out on

(01:56:50):
a match and they didn't pass the torch and they
act like they're above at all, and they're they're I mean,
the people who deserve your respect are the ones who
in insist on losing. The question going into the matches,
does does Brodie King or Bondido pin me? And not
how do we get out of doing a job because

(01:57:11):
you should want to put that team over and.

Speaker 3 (01:57:13):
Yeah, I mean way Shelton Benjamin's not used to doing jobs.

Speaker 1 (01:57:16):
Oh right, yes, no, And again I don't I don't
know what happened behind the scenes in terms of maybe
somebody you know, one of them wanted to and Tony
con says, no, no, we can't do that way to
protect you. So I want to put a caveat in there,
But all signs point to them being divas and selfish
and having a backlash in the locker room over it,
and also just not understanding the fundamental So figure out

(01:57:38):
what side you're on and then lean into it. Let's
get a specific crowd response that doesn't sabotage in undercut.
Whoever you're wrestling, and you should sell, you should do jobs,
and you should be either heel or a face and
not just above it all cool people. So I just
I've lost a lot of respect for all three in
the way that this has played out. Maybe information will
come out to soften that.

Speaker 3 (01:57:55):
How are you feeling exactly what you said? Yeah, I mean,
I'm totally open to the possibil be that this is
one of them is causing the issues and the others,
I mean, who knows, but could be all three. I
don't rule anything out there, but yeah, this has been
flawed for a while, and we've talked about it for
a while. This isn't like something new. We could see it,
like my god, they're just destroying people. They're going to

(01:58:16):
roague warriors on these people and for why, and I
don't understand. They just were content to lean into the
cheers and all of that when they're heels. And then
I thought, well, maybe they're just babyfaces now, And no,
I don't think they were. The MVP is not at
the Forbidden Door. I don't know what went on there.
I still haven't. Have you seen any reports on that.

(01:58:37):
I haven't seen anything yet explaining why he wasn't there,
So that was true.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
I haven't asked either, I've meant to, but I have it,
so sure.

Speaker 3 (01:58:45):
Yeah. Yeah, so that's that part was awkward, But yeah
it was. And that whole match, I'm watching it thinking, okay,
it's elimination match, and when the finish occurred, I called, yeah,
it was built as one. Yeah. And then I think
the crowd's reaction said it wasn't just me missing something

(01:59:06):
because they were happy, but they thought it was the fall,
you know, they thought you could tell this wasn't rejoice
the babyface has won the tag titles. It wasn't that.

Speaker 1 (01:59:15):
Yeah, I agree, Yeah, it was an awkward moment, and
I guess, you know, if they had made it clear
it was like a count out, but they didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:59:24):
But you can't because it's a three ways. Oh yeah,
so I thought the same thing, Like I even rewound,
like did I miss a count out? Like, oh, it's
a triple threw. You know, there's no way I would.

Speaker 1 (01:59:34):
Have yep edgin or excuse me. Adam Copland and Christian
Cage has been a pleasant surprise. I was, yeah, I
was worried a few weeks back. And Christian has stayed
true to himself but reacted to Copeland's overtures to work
together out of nostalgia in a common cause in a
way that feels believable. I you know, when when we

(01:59:56):
talk about the babyface depth, you know, people like, what
about Adam Copland, It's like he's in that celebrity the
legacy star wing as you know, a part timer that said,
you know when if you he sort of like I
said about Adam Cole, like you know, he has a
bench player if you need to kind of move him
up into something because you know you've lost Swerve and
Osprey and Kenny's very limited. You can move him up,

(02:00:18):
but you should be looking around for is there somebody else?
You know, like you said with Takeshta, that can come.
You know, if Brodie King weren't in a good take
team right now and they had protected him more, you
could go maybe him. If they had done a better
job of Danny Garcia, maybe him. But you know they
there's some limitations there, but Copeland is someone but I do.
What I didn't want is them to just turn Christian

(02:00:38):
for the sake of the nostalgia Pop reunion and and
have him come out of it then abandoning this tremendous
heal character. Do you think after Toronto, after all out,
Christian goes back to being a heel or is that
going to be too difficult because people are having such
fun with him in Copeland being together again, or is
there a way to tell that story or do you
think no, the goal is just to have him be

(02:01:00):
babyfaced by the end of this, and that's the journey
we're on.

Speaker 3 (02:01:03):
I leave it alone. I don't know what they have
in mind, but I think they have a good thing
going right now. He's been so entertaining as a heel
and just despicable that fans have just been waiting for
a reason to cheer this guy because it's been so
much fun. There's just so many moment like he really
said that, And again, eventually the wore off a little bit,
you just become desensitized to it. But yeah, I mean

(02:01:24):
people like Christian and the over the top heel things
that he says. And now it kind of worked out.
It's unfortunate that Nick Wayne obviously suffered injury, but I
think it works out in that there's still something for
Christian to do, even if I don't know what Copeland
is not along he's going to be around, or what
his schedule is, but there's still something for Christian waiting
ahead on a heel that he has to to go through.

(02:01:47):
So I hope that, Yeah, they do their thing in Toronto,
but they just keep the nostalgia to her going a
little bit. And with Copeland it kind of feels nostalgic.
With Christian, he still feels relevant.

Speaker 1 (02:02:00):
So could Christian come out of this as a babyface
but playing basically the same character but aiming it at
heels like Rick Achet or you know, if Sammy Gavara
were to be hell in that way back in the
old you know, like that kind of like okay, young Punk,
I'm like, we're fans are leaning into and embracing the

(02:02:21):
exact version of Christian that we've seen him be as
a heel. But it's opposite of Nick Wayne, it's opposite
of in Kyle Fletcher even, you know, like move him
into a spot like that where he's taking on these
these punk ass heels.

Speaker 3 (02:02:37):
I think so absolutely, I think there's something there.

Speaker 1 (02:02:40):
Yeah, yeah, Jay White. Also, by the way, you know,
a sideline when we talk about names that are not
available to them. All right to now, we're gonna move
on to the v IP exclusive after show. Another fifteen
minutes of discussion, including my question to Jason, which is
does anyone jump out as underutilized in AEW on the
current roster, who could step up into main events. We

(02:03:01):
look at the roster and talk about the pros and
cons of a variety of names. Also the Bailey voice
in her head vignettes, Jason's thoughts on that, and also
MGF threatening to set Mark Brisco on fire and well
why it was just low Q nonsense and kind of
both cases in terms of some choices that were made there.
Also Chris Jericho's future and whether aw should play ball

(02:03:21):
or I don't try to get Jericho to stay or
or make it clear they are okay with him leaving. Also,
who is next for Hangman Page and I come up
with an idea that I think would work with some
limited options without going into reruns, which might be a
little My pick might be a little surprising based on
some things I said earlier in the show and more so,

(02:03:42):
stay tuned for that if you're a VIP member. If
you're not, you'll want to go VIP pte W Torch
dot com slash go VIP that gives you access to
the commercial free versions of our free shows and then
unlocks all of our VIP exclusive podcasts. And you can
also sign up with Jason site and get the VIP
after show of this program. Just go to Pwmembership dot

(02:04:05):
net for details on that if you want to support
Jason and get his weekly dot net flagship episode with
Jake Barnett and all the other features that come with
his membership, as he noted earlier in the show. So
VIP members, stay tuned. We'll rope forward with the VIP
after show, and for those of you who are not VIP,
thank you for listening and we will talk to y'all
next time. Invite you to email the show with feedback

(02:04:43):
or questions or comments. That email address is Wade Keller
Podcast at pwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at PW
torch dot com. Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even
follow us on Twitter at PW torch and follow me
at the Wade Keller That's at p W two and
at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 3 (02:05:04):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro wrestling dot net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
Boom Podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Ditcher, downcast, and

(02:05:25):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com. Once again, that's PW boom dot com.

Speaker 1 (02:05:35):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
also have a website, pwtorch dot com. Daily news updates, editorials,
and my live TV coverage covering Raw, Dynamite and SmackDown
and my live pay per view coverage for WWE and
AEW create a tab or bookmark, make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
on breaking news and more. That's pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 8 (02:05:58):
Meet an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
Will come join me Alan forel Over in the Progress
Paradise at Pterbreo Torch VIP as we mask on the
bright side of wrestling and focus on some of the
great matches and shows from around the world, be it
the US, Japan, Europe or Mexico. There's always a place

(02:06:19):
for wrestlings past in the Paradise too, and we've done
fun historical shows such as the We Love Liger series
celebrating the glorious career of Jusian thunder Lighter and Our
Eye Was There When shows where our guests will join
me to talk about a classic bout that they were
in attendance for. We love variety and you can.

Speaker 9 (02:06:36):
Expect lots of it at the Progress Paradise. Detailed PW
Torch VIP subscription information and a list of all the
VIP benefits is available at pww torch vipinfo dot com.
And yes, all VIP podcasts are compatible with popular podcast
apps on iPhone and Android devices, or you can stream
them directly from our ad free VIP mobile site, See

(02:07:00):
you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (02:07:02):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
of putting out podcasts throughout the week is by giving
us a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. Just go
to Apple Podcasts and look for our Weight Keller Prosing
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(02:07:23):
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Speaker 10 (02:07:39):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 11 (02:07:54):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
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did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:08:08):
PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add free
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(02:08:31):
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(02:08:54):
and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
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