NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell on how John Cena "giving back" is having everyone praise him, Oba-Cody, C2, TNA-AMC, Masked Guy

Episode Transcript
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Now, PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
All right, Jason, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
One of the more intriguing stories coming up this weekend
at Senac Tomine event is obviously the John CENIQUINTHR match
in the finish, and I went into that, but I
should want to start with the other thing that's pretty
equal on my radar right now, which is how they
handle Cody Roads in OPA Femi. I was not convinced,
but pretty strongly leaning towards Ricky Saints retaining at deadline
on Saturday, because Cody and Ricky.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Go back there their EW days. They hung out, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Ricky was kind of part of the Cody verse backstage
his crew, and I was like, oh, this is a
chance for Cody to have you give a little back
to Ricky and give a little rubb, have a nice match.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
And but Cody can get a clean win, no harm,
no done.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Ricky gets you know, gets a spotlight match on a
big show with Cody. But Cody can just get a
clean win in a shamphasis champ match. And I said, Opa,
Femmy has way too many complications. They're not going to
do that. Well I was wrong. Now I might I
might be right that it was a bad decision.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
We'll see, but.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
I was wrong in that they would make what I
thought was the right decision. I'm curious what they do
here for Cody O. But to me, that seems like
a match they should save and build up and it
should be a big deal when it happens, not just
thrown together on some you know, showed as a tribute
to John Cena's generosity. And now they have a finished
cut undrum and people don't really know Obafemi, so this

(03:07):
would be the first impression and is he gonna be heal?
Is gonna be a face? Are people going to care?
What do you what do you make of this decision?
What do you think of my what do you make
of my framing of it going in to it?

Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, I think this could have been damaging to Ricky though.
That's it. He's not in a great place and I
think that's part of the reason they took the title
away from him and hoping the other part is that
they're just going to turn him heel. I've just noticed
like he is, the reactions to him are very subdued.
It's uh yeah, and so some thing's not clicking there,

(03:38):
and I think if he I mean, there's no shame
in losing to Cody, but still, you know, high profile
loss like that. I don't know that it would have
done him any favors. I mean, I also can't rule
out that they get back to that match. We still
have NXT tonight. They're not advertising any title matches. But
because I was, I was thinking the same thing you were,
that they're going to go with Ricky and then chances
are one of the reasons they moved the title to

(03:58):
Ricky as they plan to call it ob femi, and
I mean, I still believe they're going to So I
don't think there's going to be a long title ram,
but I guess i'd be surprised if it ended tonight.
And as far as the finish of that match, you
got me, I'm just kind of throwing my hands up
on that one.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah. So a couple of things are one.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
I am a real believer and I made this case
when I said, you know, John Cena should be looking
for opportunities to put younger wrestlers over and in his
retirement year, and people interpreted that as John Cena should
do a bunch of jobs, and like, well, no, putting
someone over you can beat them, but you just they
they're you're really competitive, and you you make them seem

(04:35):
like you're there, they're close to your equal, or you know,
you give them a chance to showcase. But the better
man wins. I mean, you can. Yeah, a team can
look an NFL team can look really impressive on Sunday
and still lose. You know, but it's like whoa that
quarterback of the game. That was a great game. Both
teams look good, it was just who had the ball last.
And you can tell that story in wrestling, and I
think they could have told that with Ricky and Cody
and it would have introduced a.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Larger audience, presumably on Peacock.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Then to introduce them to Ricky Starks compared to the
NXT audience, or at least a different audience, I would.
I think there's a way to book that and tell
a story even with Ricky losing clean where and by
the way, that could also be Ricky turns heel. You're like,
he could have lost and had a really combat a match,
and Cody's like, man, good job, lifts up Ricky Starks
pats them on the shoulder, not in a patronizing way,

(05:20):
but in congratulations that was a hell of a fight,
Like tell that body language, and then Ricky snaps. I mean,
and again, that's not the only time you can turn
Ricky heel the best and I'm not saying it's the
best way to turn k heel, but that's a scenario
that could have happened where it's win win. Ricky looks great,
has a really killer match with Cody, but has a
memorable angle afterwards that can carry over to the main roster.
So in my mind, that was a possibility NXT is developmental.

(05:43):
I don't think there's super harm compared to like Drew
against Roman and Survivor series, where it's like, well, now
you're just establishing in a medicense who the priority is.
In this case, it's clear the priority is Cody. So
I don't think Ricky had much to lose honestly in
that context. And if he wins the title tonight, I
still don't think he does. I think you can still
tell that story.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
Yeah, I think he's If that's the direction they're going
in as a baby face, I think it could be damaging.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I think if and I like that even turning heel
and he actually in watching at the end of the
match after he lost the title clean after a couple
of those power bombs by Oba, he was like stalking,
like the camera's like lingering, you know, like it lingers,
and you're like, okay, something's about to happen here, sticking
around a little long and nothing's happening. And then they
caught Ricky kind of like leering, like in a in

(06:27):
an ominous way like go and I think they meant
to send the singles rick he gonna be okay with
losing is he gonna tackle be femmy, and then Oba
turned around and offered a handshake, or Ricky offered a
handshake and Oba took his time but accepted it. And
I was like, okay, well, I was kind of thinking
that might be a Ricky turned or they might kind
of do what Jay Usa did where he kind of
flips out a little bit in some way over loosing.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
But they didn't.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
They did it pretty straight forward. But it did cross
my mind that if Ricky loses, that will be the
and it still can be the impetus for him turning.
And I'm not against that because he does need a spark.
I mean, at the live NXT show I went to
a few weeks back, you know, he wasn't it was
like what anate man tag or something, but it was
it wasn't like, oh, we're here to see Ricky Starks.
And sometimes people get cult followings with you know, smaller companies,

(07:11):
and you really can tell when someone's over, you know,
at right shows, NXT shows, T and A shows over
the years, excuse me, there are definitely times where you
know you can just watch even on TV and C
that someone's really over in the hook and gotten, you know,
even Joel Henry you know, where it's kind of a
cult thing, or Zach Ryder where it's a cult thing.
Ricky just doesn't have that. So something does need to

(07:35):
be done, and it ought to be done because I
don't think you should just abandon him. Obviously there's still
something there even if his stock is down.

Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, and I wonder if it could he could play
a part in the finish if they stick with Cody
and Oba, if he costs over the match, they set
up a rematch. That way, he probably regains it as
a heel. Like, I just don't think it was going
to be there long. Yeah. I know there's there's mixed
feelings on that when people think like he needs more
time and all. I I just I think you're gonna

(08:02):
see a lot of call ups very soon.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, we'll get into that a second.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
I like the idea that you brought up first that
Starks is involved on Saturday and one thing, And again
I'm not trying to like say this scenario is the
scenario they should do.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
It's just for illustrative purposes. An opportunity they have, which
is Stark's.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
They could acknowledge his friends of Cody and that they
go ways back, and Starts could be coaching Cody, giving
him some tips on not a face olpa because he
just lost to him in the locker room, and you
know can go, oh yeah, you know where he starts
and Cody they're their friends and and uh, you know
they go way back or whatever. Just kind of you know,
introduce that real life element and it might work for
the story. But what it turns out is Starks goes

(08:42):
too far in helping Cody later late in the match,
and Cody takes exception and then Starks essentially just turns
heal on everybody.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
So you know, there's a scenario for sure if Cody's
ever going to turn heel and the you know, for
seeable future and they want Ricky to be part of it,
you could do something that right now doesn't you know,
tie them together. But when you look back on it, it
might be like, oh, okay, they can frame it that.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Way too, like where there's Cody has a little group.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah yeah, if Cody turns to you, you know he
basically you're not looking at if when you watch the
finish of the match of Ricky interferes, you're not thinking
like he's doing it on behalf of Cody. He's doing
it to go to Oba, but then somewhere down the
road whenever, if that turn occurs and they do put
Ricky with him, you can kind of revisit this.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
I made the analogy right, analogy with the comparison that
Ricky Starks has some traits that remind me of just
incredible where I think in real life there's ambition, but
there's a little bit of being a follower to him,
and I think it comes across a little bit on
TV where you're trying to be in alpha and it
worked in an NBA power You know, it's a big

(09:52):
fish in a small pond, but there's something where I
think when he's playing off of an alpha it worked,
it might work little better for him, and so I don't,
you know, I don't know how far to extend the
just incredible thing, But like he was seen as like
when he was ECW Champ, I don't know, this isn't
exactly working it. He might not be this might not

(10:13):
be the right spot as a top top guy in
a territory or promotion. I guess to use a modern
term of this size, and I don't know if that's
what happened with Ricky and NXT or if it's something else.
But what do you think, by the way, why why
did Ricky not take off with the NXT audience.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
I don't think he's been all that dynamic there.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
I get that one promo in the contract signing before
the last pl not this one, but the previous pl
where the contract signing, and he really showed fire in
the in the build up to uh uh Ricky, Why
am I drawing a blank? Who's the other? Who's the other?
Top NXT guy? Ricky just faced Trick Williams.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yes, I had Ricky Williams in my head and I
I know that Williams Like, okay.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
Is he coming back like Philip Rivers? Oh god four
years old?

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Wo wow? That's crazy.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah yeah, okay, so yeah, So in that build up
to the Trick Williams match and the country signing, like
Ricky gave this fiery promo. I'm like more of that,
Like that was I thought like a high point for
him on the microphone because sometimes he I think, and
I'm not saying this is what what sort of quote
went wrong where you didn't catch on? But there is

(11:30):
something where it kind of feels like he's got the
pull string promo. You pull the string and then the
catchphrases come out, yeah, and it's it's like I am
the Revolution. It's like you can't hang on the It's
like my issue with like montest Ford, there's just sometimes
there's just too many catchphrases and pretty soon you don't
really it just becomes repetitive and it seems like they're
not putting a lot of thought into it, Whereas, like

(11:51):
you know, Ethan Page really works because he doesn't. He
has certain things he says, but he always seems like
he's just in the moment in conversational like in the
build to to his match where he was interacting with
Avo over you know, I can have the night off
and she goes, oh, and I have an opponent free.
It's like he feels like he can just carry a
conversation to be a real person. He's not just a

(12:12):
promo repeating catchphrases. And that works for him and you
become more versatile and value. But when you can do that,
I think Ricky's capable of it, but I don't know
if he's done enough of that, because everything sort of
feels like I have to be on in a performing
mode instead of just being Ricky Starks.

Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yeah, and I misspoke. I think it was last time
or the time before that I was on. I was
talking about the one time I kind of looked at
him and thought, like I saw it in his eyes
that he's believing what he's saying instead of looking a
little uncertain. He said SMO with Joe was attacking. It
was actually a big bill when they were the aw
Tag Team champions. I really thought he thrived. And you
know what you're saying about him kind of being a
follower if I think it's probably going to require him

(12:49):
to accept that. And you can do what you want
in your real life, but I think as a character,
that might be his land where you know, he's a
heel who is kind of a kiss ass to make
maybe Cody when the time comes, and he is kind
of a number two, and you know, I think there's

(13:11):
money in that. I think he could play that well.
I just it's gonna be out of his comfort zone
because I think he is so used to kind of
playing this big swag Ricky Starks character.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
I think that's a great point, and it is you'd
have to accept that I think one thing would benefit him,
and I've heard this. I heard this from someone in
w B just recently, like they still see him as
kind of a derivative rock knock off, you know, doing
doing some stick and that gets held against him. It
got held against l. A. Knight, and to a degree
still does until he overcame it by showing that he

(13:42):
was more. And still I think there's room for Ricky
Starks to do that, to to prove people, to prove
to people that there is more there than just being
a guy who looks like he's you know, sort of
cost playing other top stars. And so it'd be great

(14:03):
if there was if there was was room for that,
because if people see Ricky as just someone who thinks, well,
I'm gonna just strike poses and do catchphrases, and they
don't think he's growing beyond that, well, an opportunity to
show you more than that is to take on a
significantly different type of role to see if it clicks.
Because if this was going to click, getting to be

(14:23):
NXT champion, it was kind of like when Kyle Rada
got the chance and it just didn't work, you know,
as a centerpiece of NXT. Something just didn't quite work
with him at that time in that spot, and then
you you know, you have to go, Okay, is there
something different that that I can do or ought to do?

Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah, And so I think when that time comes, I
think there's a very good chance you'll be good at it.
I mean, I haven't closed a door on him being
a success at this level doing what he's doing, if
he can deliver better promos. But I do think long term,
you know, you get up to the main roster and
he's going to be kind of an underside. I think

(15:00):
he might be best just being a bit of a
past heel. Now. I mean it sounds like I'm saying
you should be the biz, but I'm not. I think
there you can be kind of that of noxious number
two and actually, you know, play a pretty valuable role.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah. I'm for that too.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
When I think of be being a follower, I kind
of think like I got that impression in this in
the sense that he is friends with as the best
of my knowledge, still friends with Cody, and Cody is
the alpha right now in that company. He's the world champions,
a centerpiece, and so there is a real life dynamic
even you know, Ricky Starks is younger than Cody and
has had less success in Cody, you can play off

(15:39):
of that real dynamic and it might land as as
more relatable for fans, or or just it might be
a it feels so natural because it's just real. But yes,
if he turns heel and keeps the alpha persona, and
if he's committed to it and he wants to try
to make it work, I do not mean to like
discard that as a possibility that it might work. I

(16:01):
think it's still I think it's still canon. It might
be worth pursuing before going into the route.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
You mentioned Oba femmy. Let's let's shift to that there.
There's also possibly not only Ricky gets involved. I was
thinking Drew mcadare gets involved in the match Saturday.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
I don't think he's off shooting the movie yet. I
think that's not till till January. And there's injured star
and I don't even know if they know exactly when
the last I heard, I don't even know if that
would be new, like exactly when the casting is going
to be, So they're kind of like not sure what
what timeline to use with Drew to write him out,
but he could show up or both could job but
Drew could show up and cost Cody the match, and
then Oba gets to win, and that's the.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Way they they protect him.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
We also, it's Paula Beck's booking era, so we could
just get a no contest or a DQ and it's
just right right unfortunate. But what what what is the
best case for Oba being ready? And what's the best
case of people that you what's what resonates most with
you when when you when people say, yeah, maybe he
needs more time.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Is more time gonna help him? Or is he who
he's going to be?

Speaker 1 (17:01):
And he kind of, you know, grew quickly and then
leveled off and that's enough, go with it, strike out.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah what you just said. I really think that we've
reached a point with him where he's having good quality
matches with a variety of opponents. He's never going to
be the five star classic guy, but he's having good matches,
And I think, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
You don't like five stars is not to be or Lando.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
You want to have a variety. If you have everybody's
will ostpre it just becomes redundant. Then nobody stands out.
So you want to have an open femi on your
you know that kind of guy.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
Definitely, Yeah, and he knows who he is as a character.
I think his promo style is contagion. You know, you
just you listen to this guy and what he says,
and then the accent really works for him. And Yeah,
there's just a lot to like there. And I think
he has a chance to really catch on in a
big way if they do it right on the main roster.
And I'm very anxious to see where he lands, which

(17:51):
brand and just how they use him. He's been a
really good babyface in n XT. I think he could
be a good heel if they wanted to play that
role in the main roster. But I kind of I
like the idea of just sticking with him as a babyface.
What one exception could be is if they if they
feel like there's a spot in the vision for a

(18:13):
guy like him, I think he would fit in in
some way. But yeah, I'm not married to that. I
think I'd rather see him as your babyface.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
Yeah, yep, let's say something about Yeah, let's let's pause
intoose the show and then we'll move on other topics.
Think we covered that well enough. I just don't want
to talk about obviously the Sena MATCHINSIDS Made event, and
some more about Sina.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
We'll get to that after the introduction here.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown or AEW
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show, or a topic you want us
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If there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that
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(18:59):
our mail bank segments, that same email applies Wade Keller
Podcast at pwtorch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let
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toorch dot com. This is the Wayde Keller Pro Wrestling
Podcast for Tuesday, December ninth, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
I'm WAYD.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Keller, host of the show, editor, publisher and founder of
the Pro Wrestling Torch weekly newsletter and the website PEW
toorch dot com and the host of This the wayde
Keller Pro Wrestling podcast, our blue logo show where we've
got our weekly flagship, along with other shows sprinkled in
including interviews, classic interviews from the past, media Q and
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(19:44):
and also pay per view previews and some flashback episodes
going back five, ten and fifteen years. This is the
flagship today and every three weeks with very reliably with
rare exception. Jason Paul from Progressling dot Net is my
co host and he joins me and he is here today. Jason,
welcome back to the flaship.

Speaker 4 (20:04):
Goodeb here, Hey, very good to be here. And before
I forget because I think I did for Thanksgiving, Merry
Christmas everyone. I know we're we have a few weeks,
but it'll be my last time on the show unless
something changes between now and then, so I hope everybody
has a great holiday season.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Very good.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, good to sneak that in there, especially because everyone
was like, why did Jason say thanks?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Happy Thanksgiving?

Speaker 4 (20:26):
So I feel better that's the important thing.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yes, glad you made up for that.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
So Jason get instead of me doing plugs, you get
an early plug in for what you do and what
people should be why people should go to your website
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Yeah. Absolutely. Pro Wrestling dot Net is the website live
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(21:03):
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Boom jac you said, it's really easy to remember how
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Already forgot? How what is that easy to remember?

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What W membership dot net? PW membership dot net.

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They want to be members of your site, support you
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No, they should have got a PW membership dot.

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Net instead of where.

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Instead of PW membership dot net.

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Oh gotcha? Okay, good, that's clear. That's clear.

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All right, let's let's get right back to conversation. We
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Speaker 2 (22:49):
We'll get to that in a bit.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Let's stay focused on Sunday it's made event for a
moment and talk about one the format of the show.
Did you watch the pre show for any the deadline,
Jason I having on the background at all? No, okay,
because every ten seconds Sam Robertson, who's his female host?
I can't think of her name right now?

Speaker 4 (23:09):
I guess I'm not sure. I can't think of the
name that I think it is, blonde gal?

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, and they yeah, so anyway, they have good report.
They give each other hard time, so so yes, that's it.
Sweet yep, good job on.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
The pre show.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
Like I it felt like Megan and Sam.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I hope it's Megan.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
No, I'm not one hundred percent sure, but quite pretty
so we're too, pretty sure and quite sure. I'd say
they sounded like they got a bonus for every time
they talked about how great and generous John Cena was to.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Give these young wrestlers an opportunity on the show. I
mean it was.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
And then we had the John Cena video and you
could just see he was like, nobody believes John Cena
is watching NXT in his free time, but John Cena
gives these sound bites where he knows everything about soul Ruka,
like and it's like, and he says it in this
course of the John c over the top cartoonist performative way,
sol Ruka is someone who has shown great promise over
the decade or over over recent months, and.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
So Ruka blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
And it's like, oh god, you can you just talk
like a normal person in this setting. But and so
he's like, you know, it's an opportunity for these people,
and and so, and then you get back to Sam
and oh John Cena what so generous of him to
hand those spotlight over to some of these younger wrestlers.
And it was like every ten seconds, it's John Cena
this and John Cena that, And then even I think

(24:30):
Ethan Page and and and Ava were like dropping John
Cena's name and like throwing, oh, John.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Cena is great, this is a John It's so nice
that John.

Speaker 1 (24:37):
Cena is not just wrestling, but he's given opportunities and
Ethan Paige, you can you can be on the show and.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Or well, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I know I'm just improvising here. So I'm this whole
thing of John Cena giving back by letting other main
roster wrestlers wrestle younger wrestlers.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
It's like, it's so weird, like.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
The law of transference is I'm gonna be it's such
a big show, somebody people are gonna be tuning in
that I'm going to give back by having assigning other
main roster wrestlers in their prime to wrestle NXT wrestlers.
And I'm not against the concept. I'm against how heavy
handed they are.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Are.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Like Brown Breaker at a nice promo last week, but
it wasn't a great promo, but they were telling us
how great it was before we could even register whether
that was an improvement. So I resented that a little.
And with Sina, it's sort of like when he gives
life advice. It's good advice, but please don't talk to
me like no one's thought of it before, and you're
gonna remember centuries from now for the wisdom you are
bestowing upon adult humans. You talk like you're talking to

(25:31):
eighth graders who are going through puberty and giving them
advice that they're gonna find profound because their parents don't
pay attention to them. But please understand and come across
like you don't actually believe this is deeply profound and
going to be remembered for centuries. But his delivery, it's like,
you won't believe what I'm about to say, but I've
got something to tell you here, and it is keep.

Speaker 2 (25:52):
Trying till you succeed.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
It's like, oh god, so I'm getting My point is
I'm going to like a healthy dose of a lot
of things that irritate me boutch on C the last
couple of weeks, and I'm going to be kind of
excited when it's over. Are you irritated the way I am?
Or are you just a good audience as good ear
to good audience will listen to me rant for a minute,
but you're ready to move on?

Speaker 4 (26:11):
Yeah? I mean it is a bit much. I think
you're so. Was it the video? The selection thing, the
same thing they played on TV by chance with him
giving his logic behind making these people the picts. Yeah, yeah,
it was a lot. I mean it's I don't know
that they had a cute card there, but they might
as well have it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
It see, he made it all about he made something
was supposed to be about giving back all about him
and how great in generous he is.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, will these count on his make a
wish totals? Do we know? We should probably keep an
eye on that. I don't know if there's an active
list or not. But the whole thing with Jeff Chaerrett,
he always had those things that he would tweet, the
inspirational lines. Do we know if those came from him
having conversations with John Zen and just jotting those things down.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
I felt they were in competition with the other.

Speaker 4 (27:01):
I mean there's well if Jeff did try to like
make his retirement a big deal and boy that wind nowhere.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
No, I'm giving myself some I'm giving myself some credit
for derailing that whole thing.

Speaker 4 (27:16):
Well, it's just it was like, wow, John's doing this,
and now Jeff's doing this, okay, And.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
I mean he like Jeff read his Wikipedia page for
like eight minutes on television once. It's like Jeff's Jeff
was never like the coolest guy. Jeff was talented, maybe
like I mean, I'm I'm not like I'll take Jeff
Yard on my roster. And during during you know, at
times during his career, but he was associated with the
worst period in w w W and all the really
good top stars were sitting out, taking advantage of loopoles
in their contracts, faking injuries whatever it was, or injured

(27:43):
or fighting with a booker. Then he got to be
the centerpiece and and that that's a that was a
little bit of a stench. And then in TNA, I
was like, oh God, like Jeff's you know, booking himself,
and he you know, rationalized and justified it, and I
feel bad going back and like Reagan on him again,
but it was like he it really would have been
helpful to genuinely like step aside a little bit more
than he did. And then he got the Jeff Jarrett

(28:04):
specials where it's you know, all the all the intricate
interference and he's really good at that and it's good
to pull out like three times a year, but he
did it three times per show. And when he had
his you know, fingers, when he was wrestling in AW
every one of his matches where the Jeff you know,
the intricate Jeff Jarrett special where it just interference and
and people come in a ring side. It's just one
thing after another, and he's like really good at it.
It's a super skill he has. But he just overdid it.

(28:26):
And then it was time for the retirement tour and
it was like he carried himself like he was like
he believed genuinely that he is like a top ten
star of the last twenty five years, and and it
just was I mean, it just was not what AW
needed at that time. If he wants to go back
to TNA and give that speech on a pay per view,
you know that that's fine. But like the AW audience

(28:47):
is not looking at Jeff Jarrett as somebody who they
have anything but sort of he's a novelty now and
then for a short period of time Will Will we'll
kind of get into but like now you're you're really
making yourself out to be a bigger deal than we
think you are.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
And it was rough. So I don't know, and I
feel bad.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
I just went on a two minute rant on on
Jeff Jarrett and.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Unprovoked too Well, you know, you provoked me.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
I'm blaming you. You triggered me.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
But yeah, when he and John Zena were we're doing
their things online, it was just like, oh god, they
there was a level I guess my point was there
was a level of a lack of self awareness, I think,
but it to me, it was sort.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
Of revealing who Jeff was talking to online.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
You know, like I think he saw enough wrestling fans
in his day growing up that he's like, you know,
I am a pretty profound person compared to these people,
and in it realized like, you know, you're playing to
a national audience that's a lot more sophisticated than than
some of the people that that I think his were
in his mind, his target audience, and it rubbed I
think a lot of fans the wrong way.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
I will still take that over all of the negativity
that there is on that platform. I mean, it's not
for me either, don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, it's
it's beats the alternative.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah all right, And yeah, I I generally like Jeff.
I generally think he had a really nice career, but
they're just like those are sort of the moments where
he was he was on top at a bad time
in w W over push himself in tna is he
thinks he's more profound than he is online. But whatever,
there might be an audience that that he did some good,
but it wasn't for you know, it wasn't for me.
And then he got got Tony gave him a little

(30:22):
bit too long of a leash to make it all
about him at a time when aw needed to be
more cool.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Those are my.

Speaker 4 (30:26):
Apparently you see him on the pre shows, that's about it.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, And he's super like he is super like.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Engaging and likable and he's like really like conversational like
the things that I say that like you know, Ethan
Page was you know, is good at where he doesn't
just feel like he's just a bunch of catchphrases like
Jeff's like really good in those circumstances. He plays off
of off of that that that pre show crew, well,
like I mean, and that's the thing, like he's he's
he is a walking embodiment of of like the technique

(31:00):
how to meet friends and influence people like he just
he's really engaging in good in that role.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Do you hear that or do you want to bring
on here.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
For that okay, yeah, yeah, but as Rock would say,
no your role if you missed it earlier. Just a reminder,
we're running our second VIP sale of the year. We
don't do these often. Take advantage of it now. It
is a limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a
VIP subscription a one month, three month, or one year
sub It brings the one month sub down to just

(31:25):
three dollars in ninety nine cents. The coupon code is
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twenty twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When
you check out on our sign up form pw torch
dot com slash go vi IP gives you full details
on membership benefits and links to our sign up form.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
All right, well, what are we talking about.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
We're talking about, oh, John Cena making him giving back
all about him and what a great guy he is
at arrest and an ex wrestler ranting to me in
text today about that too. He's he's had enough John Cena.
It's like it's like when you know they just that'd
be hilarious. Jason, you know you you should not you

(32:08):
know more than you than you should and you should
steal the beans like that, Like Justin Roberts wrote about
how you know he's doing charity work, and then Stephanie
swooped in and made it all about you know, Connor
s Carroll about her and and he's like, but I
was the one who like established and they took it
away from me. And it's like, well, it's Stephanie's company,
and you know, I mean you kind of have to
understand that's how the game is played. But you know,
if you want to rant it about it in your
if you want to vent is a better word in

(32:30):
your book about it, that's fine. But sometimes the person
with the power gets to frame things as if they're
a bigger deal in that context, and I think you know,
the goal right now is get John Cena over as
this great, magnanimous guy and keep him in good graces.

(32:51):
You know, management wants to make sure because he's a
big deal now, they want him to be happy with things.
And so you know, seeing us out there doing that.
Have you listened to much of his media tour?

Speaker 4 (33:00):
No, no, no, I keep like today I was like,
I'll put on that Ranaldi interview in the background, and
I just can't do it. Because I know what that
John scene is gonna be. I' gonna have to listen
to the other stuff where he's not talking to somebody
that he's just not doing something that is like for
the WWE audience necessarily.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
And then the rude dog was on the caller on
the post last night after Rob actually yeah, and.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
He was just like, oh he shows that over listening
to John Cy and being interviewed by John.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I don't blame you. I appreciate I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
I mean but yeah, I mean Sina like let loose
Joe Rogan and then and then doing this thing with
Bill Simmons talking sports like Sena is like there is
there are some similarities with Jeff JERTT. Johnson actually in
terms of you know, kind of marketing. They see themselves
as a product to market and they think that that
is genius, Like that is I'm not a lot like

(33:51):
a lot of people don't get it, but you know,
like they look around like I get it. I'm a
brand and it's like Matt Hardy when you I'm the
Matt Hardy brand. You know, like there there are people
who really market their brand and and their image and
they but it can feel performative and overbearing after a while,
and and and kind of like patronizingly it transparent in

(34:16):
a way where it starts to feel sort of patronizing
in tone and scene. It's just kind of getting getting there.
It's like, well, I didn't give people a list to
who I want to wrestle. They gave me a list.
It's like, let's let's not act like you just said,
I'll do whatever you ask and I'll have no input.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Of course they had ideas and you we're not.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
You know, if you're gonna say, did you come up
with a strict list of these are the only six
people you wrestle?

Speaker 5 (34:35):
No?

Speaker 2 (34:36):
That, but nobody's accusing you of that, Like just do
you have to be I'll.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
Give you an example. Yeah, the guy who will do
you know, whatever they ask me, I'm going to go
out of a women. Guess if they said, hey, we've
got this storyline where you and Nicky Beller are going
to hook up, I'm thinking.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
John might I said no, yes, And and like it
doesn't have to be like so extreme, like like John
Cena said, up, it is not this and that thing
he's saying, it's not It's like Okay, maybe three people
said it online and now we're giving way too much
attention to it, which John Steene is dictating what to do,
and he's excluding all these young guys. And but then

(35:12):
scene is like I did not you know, I did not.
They gave melis. I didn't give them like just say,
it's a collaboration, Like why can't you just meet in
the middle and just not be so extreme? It just like, yeah,
we collaborated. They had ideas. I had ideas. It was
mostly their ideas. They're good ideas, but you know, they
kind of know me.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
And what would work. I just everything just I don't know,
it's just.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
There is I mean, I I don't know that it's
just this, But I was like, how much of it
is he doesn't want to take the plan for that
heel there?

Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, in a way he shouldn't other than the fact
that he said yes, you know, he did give in
to Duayne and it ultimately was a mistake because they
you know, one scene that just wasn't willing to go
all in on it. And to a degree, I don't
I blame him and I don't blame him, like he's like, well,
can I make this work? But not do it in

(35:58):
a way that all my Hollywood friends think I'm a jerk.
So I have to do it in a really like,
you know, kind of cornball, cartoonish, caricature peel way. But
I want everyone who doesn't watch wrestling a lot, if
they see a clip online to know, oh, that's not John,
that's John pretending and that room, which is.

Speaker 4 (36:13):
So hilarious, Like you're dealing with people in Hollywood. They
should know what a villain is.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, well but John Cena is playing John Cena in wrestling,
and it's weird. But you have to, like you almost
have to live it as a fan like we do
for so long as a fan, and then grow in,
you know, grow into watching it in a different way
in adulthood. And of course, you know, being journalists and podcasts,
it's you know, you can you approach it kind of
differently too, when you're in analyzing it and it's not
just a pastime or escape.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
But you like, we kind of get it.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
But like there are people who just they they don't
they they don't understand that if you go by the
name that they know you as on TV on a
wrestling show, that doesn't mean that is a reflection of
who you now are. They think it's all fake, but
then they people do think it's all fake, but don't
watch actually get confused and buy in too. But why

(37:05):
why is he being such a jerk? Like you know,
that's because if you go by your real name and
you're playing a role. I think John Cena was genuinely worried.
Some people would think John has this nasty side to her,
that's the real side to him, and he'd have to
explain himself. I it could be an unfounded worry, but
I think there are people who like just don't understand
because you're not playing some other character.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
In a script.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
You're playing yourself to a degree that I guess can
be confusing for people who don't.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Get that culture.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
Yeah, I shared your saying.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, there was a woman in the crowd when when
Ricky Starks took that first Opa Femi like power bomban
and Ricky kicked out and they cut.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
She was great. I don't know, it just stood out
to me.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
She was like, whoa oh man, oh Ricky man, Oh
that was that was that was a close one, and
it was great. That's how you want fans to buy in,
But it's like when you see that, you know, someone
who's not a fan, it would be like, doesn't she
know it's fake? It's like, yes, she probably does, Like
I mean, the odds are very good she does, but
she just buying in because it's fun.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
You get you get lost in it. But see.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Exactly, yes, And so it would be it would have
been nice if John Cena had really gone all out
or said no, I can't do this, I can't do
it the way it needs to be done. Let's go
somewhere else. And it was you know, it did turn
out to be a mess. And and obviously I don't
want to re litigate this, but John Cena is you know,
blaming the fans for not cheering him when they all

(38:28):
they had been doing last a couple of years is
cheering him.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
It was a deal kill.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
It just killed it from the beginning. It was so
disconnected from the reality wrestling fans were living in. If
it just it was you know, eight years too late
to play the role that John Cena played. And you know,
could he have been a good heel? I mean yeah,
if we got the guy who tore up Sea on
Punk every week. You know that version of Sena where
he just you know, we I think a window it

(38:50):
Whoscena really is. I think if you wanted to want
to say seen as like a he's performing and who
is the authentic John Cena. I think the closest you
ever get to authentic John is when he lets loose
on a rival on the mic.

Speaker 2 (39:04):
I think that's not that he's like a jerk to everybody.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
My point is that's a window into the personality when
he when he when he strips away, oh, I have
to be something for someone, And in that case, he's like,
I'm just gonna be me. I'm going to be I'm
going to just use my my verbal skills and my
quick my quick thinking or my ability to think through
and plan something. And uh, I think that's closer to

(39:27):
what's going on in you know, like the mind of
John Cena and how it works is on those promos. Again,
not that he's ripping it everybody, but that feels like
that's the closest to the organic John Cena that you
would get if you're just having a couple of beers
with him and he was talking about anything.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
Yeah, back, amster, what maybe what wrestling fans could do
if we want to like just kind of shed this image,
just disrupt like big production plays. Just stand up at
a cruise, don't you know? This is fake? And maybe
if we do that enough they'll get the massage?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yes, Oh totally, Yeah, I mean it is. I mean
it's not.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
I mean it's not as bad as it once was,
but it's still we still run into it out there.
I'm do you agree with my premise that someone who
talks about how authentic they are and how they stayed
authentic and how they stay true to themselves despite this
and that, are in that moment being very authentic and
just marketing themselves.

Speaker 4 (40:17):
Yeah, because I've just seen too many politicians basically without
saying it, do that. So yes, yeah, and it's not Yeah,
celebrities absolutely, yes.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Who was it?

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Like was it Eddie Gilbert back in the day, he'd
be he'd like, you'd know like that, he like he
was lying a lot because he would go, I want
to be I want to be truthful with you for
a minute. It's like wait just for a minute. Like
there it always be this like declaration of truth and
you're like, okay, my guard is up. Now was it
a lie before?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Or is this are you? Are you mass.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Are you gift wrapping a lie in a in truth
wrapping paper to get me to buy in? Or were
you admitting you were lying before and now it's the truth.
But why do you have to emphasize and now is
the truth? And it's like, John, it's like I stayed
my I stayed true to myself. I was authentic. It's like,
just be authentic.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Stop talking about how authentic you were despite all this
pressure to do something else.

Speaker 4 (41:06):
I don't know, And like I said, I'm authentic. Nobody
seemed to know who the real you is.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
John, Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I'm just it's uh, I'm I'm, yes,
I'm I'm. I'm often at Johnson to defender like I
like people who have only heard this podcast and me'd
be like, oh trying, wait has it up for Like
I'm the I think he was.

Speaker 4 (41:25):
The last chance it is retiring Saturday. We got to
get this out of her system.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yes, And part of it, too, is the machine like
he is the goat. It's like he's not the goat.
He was the top pushed marketed guy for the last
you know whatever twenty you know, not quite twenty years.
Because the real champion, at least that's there's been less
of that, but that is that is at the top
of my list of disqualifying. Like there's nothing he can
do to make up for that. He's like nothing he

(41:51):
could do. He couldn't, he could not that jobbing is
putting people over, because you know, hol Gogan job to
Kidman and that wasn't putting him over.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
It was mocking, mocking the situation.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
But there's nothing he can ever do to make up
to make me think he wasn't either you know, malicious
and vindictive or or inexcusably oblivious to what that phrase
was doing when he said it, it was so self
centered and so potentially down and brilliant damaging to Cody, like, oh,
I'm I'm the last real champion. It's like you just

(42:20):
lost to Cody.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Cody, Yes, yes, kept doing what And they have the
ring announcer saying.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
It yep, the scripted you know, So I am I
am irritated this month by John Scene. I'm irritated by
the machinery kissing his ass like I mean, it's this
rival is like Triple H going to the Hall of Fame,
Like it's just like, let relax. They should make a
big deal out of John Cena's retirement. I'm not saying
he's a big star. And you can tell about the

(42:51):
crowd reactions and even our listeners. There's people who love Johnson.
I grew up with them, and they are looking past
what we're saying, and they are embracing the nostalgia. And
and you know the version of him that we see
with Peacemaker and at the at the oscars, and I mean,
like John is like way more successful and way more
likable in almost every realm other than right now in

(43:14):
wwe like this is this is the unlikable or to me,
the overbearing self promoter. And then the machine overdoing it
too with this whole goat stuff. Yeah, it's just it's
just a point to not be so heavy handed. And
it's just so heavy handed. And and John Cena was
a moderately successful draw who was rejected by the fan

(43:36):
base that they desperately wanted to cheer him, but they
claimed they didn't because any reaction is better than no reaction,
which is actually true, but it doesn't mean they weren't
deeply disappointed and humiliated by the fact that he was
rejected by their core fan base for years and years
and years and years, and Cody Rhodes has drawn has
been headline shows that are drawing bigger crowds in bigger stadiums,
and John Cena ever did on a consistent basis and
a smaller amount of time. And so let's not act

(43:58):
like John's like that there's and John had really good matches,
but he also had a lot of just sort of
mediocre formula matches too. And but the thing that was
really valuable that I'll defend John Zena on is he
was a marketable, relatable face of the brand that made
w w E palatable and friendly to advertisers and sponsors

(44:18):
and the media and fans at a time when w
B desperately needed something to shed the image of ben
Wan all the drug deaths and all the all the
scandals and all the toddry stuff that Vincent Mann was
part of that is just embarrassing to look back on.
And John Cena changed was was the face of change,
and and that was hugely important, I would argue, more

(44:40):
so than drawn a few extra thousand fans at some
of these shows, it was hugely important for the growth
of the of the corporate brand to have John Cena
as a face of it, and and I like and so,
and I don't like that is that is WW won't
be where they are today. If it weren't for that,
they might be in a different place and have taken
a different road to great success.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
But John Cena.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Provided that that that palatable, marketable friendly rebranding of the
dow B logo, which was at a time when Sena
was emerging in real, real trouble.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Yeah, it was a reset for them, absolutely, and it
was a really smart move. What gets me though, is
like just making the same mistake again with Roman Range
and really making it worse because they thought, well, you know,
Sina was able to navigate those waters and you know
he always maintained that kind of fifty to fifty sixty
forty kind of relationship with the fan. But they all reacted,

(45:35):
and with Roman it wasn't that, but they convinced themselves.
It was just like John Cena, even though it was
more like ninety ten against him, and Vince just doubled
down and Seena was right there just to say like
that that Roman was doing the right thing. This is
uh worked for him, It's going to work for Roman, Like, no,
it didn't until he turned Yeah.

Speaker 6 (46:02):
Do you remember when Hulk Hogan shocked the world and
formed the New World Order? Or when Stone called Steve
Austin passed down on the Sharpshooter to break the hit
Man heart. I'm Torch contributor Frank petty Ani, and I've
reviewed these shows and many more for my exclusive VIP podcast,
Pro Wrestling Than and Now. Together with a rotating chair
of co hosts, we go back ten, twenty, even thirty years,

(46:25):
review pay per views from top to bottom, talk about
where the wrestlers were at the time, and compare what
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get exclusive access to these and other podcasts as part
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vip for details and sign.

Speaker 5 (46:46):
Up for.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I don't want to do whole show on.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
What could have worked with John Cena, you know, had
things been tweaked or all that. But man, when you
know it is a lost opportunity seen, it could have
been something. He could have been a true goat had
he had vincick Man not not you know, steered him
and I mean Sena had agency in it too. I mean,
you Sina was a he was a bean counter when

(47:18):
it came to merch sales. He was he saw an
audience that was spending a lot of money on him,
and you know, I just I you know, he deferred
to vincick Man. That relationship is it was, was strong
at times, just sort of weirdly loyal to him. Still yeah, yeah,
I mean seen what's that dresses like him, some of

(47:40):
those suits, I know, yeah, like it's I mean yeah,
I mean there's there's there's my interesting stories there that
haven't been told yet in terms of the dynamic between
those two, and that'll help us kind of understand things.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
But I'm sure Brett Hard will have a conspiracy theory
on that one of these days.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah yeah, And you know, I want someone who is
in a conspiracy theory but just has insight like nose
from his hand and and and and talks about it.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
But yeah, so so final thing goother Sina.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I haven't looked at like what the odds are on this,
you know, like I don't pay a lot, almost no
attention to those anymore. But I think it could go
either way. I mean, I think Guther should win and
then I think miss should come out and laugh at
scene and then scene ithous just give him, you know,
his finishing moves and pin him in an unofficial match
or official match or whatever. I mean, goother should be
seen his last opponent, So I don't want it to
be like an official match. It could be kind of

(48:34):
lame if Gunther isn't the last opponent for winning the tournament.
But you know, there's been enough hints with mis that
planted the seed and now they backed away a little bit,
so the quote isn't obvious. But to me, that is
an easy thing to do. Have seen a tap out,
have Gunther get the satisfaction, have him be a jerk
rubbing it and seen his face and humiliating him, and
the fans are just super sad, and you're like, we can't.

(48:55):
Let's see his career in this way.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
This is terrible. Yes, it would be kind of fun,
but sorry, arount of time.

Speaker 1 (49:02):
While Paula X's ultimate revenge is is cutting up way
on a Peacock Special before they get to scene, his
ability to redeem him, you know, stand up and accept
the standing ovation and think you've seen a chance, But
then you want missed interrupt and take an attitude adjustment,
have fans take great satisfaction and Miss getting getting beat
up by Sena and it. You know, it feels like
they've been building towards it, you know, with mis online

(49:23):
complaining about it and you know, lobbying to be the
replacement in the tournament and all of that.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
It's just to me that fits.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
And then fans gets to cheer miss getting beat up
and then seeing people that think you seen it and
they accomplish everything. I mean, I don't know if that's
a prediction or just sort of my wish list, but
I think that's that's the to me, that's the best
scenario with the cards I have to play.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
How about you?

Speaker 4 (49:43):
I like it? Yeah, I think the fans are gonna
want to see him hit a couple of AA's and
I call it a career and all that, and I
would I assume we'd probably get some sort of moment
with our truth postmatch. I'm guessing we'll get a lot
of wrestlers in the ring perhaps or waiting for him
on the stage. That's what I'm And yeah, so I
think hopefully they have this mapped out really well. I'd

(50:05):
be surprised if they don't, but yeah, I'm hoping that
it's gun Thro going over. I don't think there's anything
wrong with John Cena uh putting him over on the
way out. I don't say it. I mean, hey, I
think if they picked a different opponent, I'd say there's
no problem with John Cena winning either. But I don't
really see what good come from goon through losing clean

(50:26):
to John Cena.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
I don't want to see interference, and I do not
want to see gun Thro lose, and I will be
I'm not going to say I'm gonna riot, but I
feel like that would be an appropriate response for someone
in the crowd. If John Cena wins and beats Gunther
and Gunther taps out, I don't care. I don't care
how many hand picked NXT wrestlers Seena picked to face
other main roster wrestlers other than him on the under card,

(50:50):
or whatever else you want to say.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Sena has done charitably this year.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Sena should use his agency to in that Gnther beats him,
because you have the obvious out of getting.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
To beat ups afterwards to give fans something to cheer about.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
And I just think that's so obviously the best path.
But they're the ones making the decisions, and I will
not prejudge something that I haven't seen. Maybe they'll be like,
you know what, I didn't think of that. That happens,
so obviously it happens. Sometimes like oh, okay, that worked,
I did I didn account for that. That that totally worked.
It went against what I thought they were gonna do
or should do, but it works. So that's why I
watched the shows. That's why they play the games.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
They say, I'll throw one more out there at one
other scenario, is it's it's Dom who ends up taking
those aas just because you know he had that win
over John Cena, any of the character that you know,
Guntherro you don't want taking those aas and that being
the last image of John Cena. But Dom he's gonna
bounce right back from it.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah, I like mis better, but you know, yeah, I
think Dom is in a in a good place at
the moment, not getting more involved with Sina. I think
that just sort of what they did worked. Sure, yeah,
but I mean yeah, I mean just something having a
body to take, having a body that people care about
to take some moves from.

Speaker 4 (52:05):
Sena Oh then qualifies mess you said people care about.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Yes, yes, all right, anything else from science made event
on the lineup that intrigues. I mean with this NXT
versus main roster situation.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
I mean I look forward to the tag match. If
I were in their position, I would try I just
come up with a quick little angle where the tag
team champions want't defend their titles. I'm a big believer
in that. If you can, there's times where it makes
sense to do a non title match, but there's more
often than not, it just adds a little something to
the match and those near falls that you know are
going to occur if the titles on the line, Even

(52:41):
if the fans really believe the champions are the heavy
favorites to retain, it still gives it the match a
little bit more juice. And I think with Aja and
Dragon Lee being the fighting champions, it's an easy way
to just they want this, and so even though Javon
Evans and Leon Slater and earned a title shot, you

(53:01):
can get to it that way, unless, of course they're
going to put over Evans and Slater, which I don't
think they're going to. You know, then you're not going
to make it a title match. But I just look
forward to seeing how that match goes. And thank God,
Gregg and Lee's not going to have to try to
power up one of those guys.

Speaker 1 (53:17):
With god, he just kept trying with I know, yeah,
and I mean and then he alls dropped Ivor on
his head or did co problem? I said, that was
dangerous looking, although it would help if Ibar hadn't gained
three hundred and.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Fifty pounds in the last six months.

Speaker 4 (53:31):
Well there is that.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I mean seriously, like maybe I just am not remembering right,
but it looks like he ate Eric.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
They you know, he may burn a lot of calories
in the ring, and it's not like they're getting booked
a lot these days with yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
I mean, I'm not like, I'm just saying maybe if
you're if you're dragonly read the room and go okay,
I'm out of like this. Maybe this maybe he is
a little heavier. It's like, you know, maybe the sixty
seven yard field goal isn't what I need to attempt
now after that quarterback got sacked. Just reassess your your
aspirations here when you see Ivar has definitely added you know,

(54:09):
I think at least enough weight to account for Eric,
although Eric thankfully was still there so we know he
didn't eat Eric.

Speaker 4 (54:17):
I gotta say I worry for those two just long term,
as far as it's not just now, but I mean
the with the NXT call ups likely coming, Yeah, you would,
there's gonna be some replacements. I'm sure they're not going
to just keep everyone, so I think there'll be some cuts.
And you know, not pinpointing those two necessarily, but when
you see them on anyone who's not on televisions as

(54:40):
little as they have been lately, if you're somebody that
just isn't getting a lot of TV time right now
and it's not because of an injury or something, then
I think you got to be a little bit nervous.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
They would have been like great in like nineteen ninety
two WCW or nineteen eighty eight Continental Championship Wrestling with
Gordon solely on the call.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
Or great had they not been turned into Viking cos players.
They were really good in as yeah, kind of the
biker type, not that they rode motorcycles or anything, but
they just had that look to them and it worked.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah, I think this version of them would have been
good opponents for the fantastics and world Class chapter pressing
like nineteen eighty six. Yeah, but yes, the the authentic,
more authentic version of them to play on John Cenas
raising there where they didn't yeah, become cosplayers and like,
I don't I assume last night's vignette was new, but
I mean I'm not one hundred.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Percent they could have aired that three years ago. Like
everyone felt the same.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
You know, we we are, we are around a campfire,
and we're going to say some some things in this
voice and and uh, that's going to make you care
about us.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
It's like no, not really, not not necess earra. Then
they did.

Speaker 4 (55:50):
They did.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
There was a car karaoke that when that was a
trend during COVID. Yeah, we'd like them break character and
it was like okay, that was that was that was something.
So yeah, and I mean they're there. They are good
talented team, and they could end up in a w
recast or something if they get cut. I wouldn't be
like chasened out. I wouldn't be offering them a big money,

(56:10):
but I you know, they might they can go back
to rh and be r H take champs.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
I wouldn't wish that people would they can go to
a w BE tagging champion.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Yeah, all right, what who?

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Who is on your How long is your list of
potential candidates that we should be considering for the Man
in Black, the mass man helping the vision.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Oh, let's see. Do you want the names that?

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (56:34):
Yeah, yeah, obviously Austin Theory would be one, and I
will even throw out Chris Jericho just because his contract
will likely be up by the time they reveal this.
It makes you I thought this was something. If it's
Austin Theory, you'd think we're going to reveal that quickly
because it's not going to be something that lives up
to expectations of fans. And the more they drag this out,

(56:58):
the more I wonder if they do have something else
in mind, even if they still plan to put Theory
with that group eventually. And the other thing, you know,
when Theory was going to join that group, it was
when Seth was the head of it. Did their creative
plans change? And they're kind of using him as a
bit of a smoke screen, knowing that fans the word

(57:18):
was out he was going to be in. Let's put
him under this hood and then whoever it is you
pay that the people will be surprised, and I see
too many people hung up on Well, yeah, but Austin
theory is this fight in Jericho's no one cares. I
mean you, if people care enough to say it once
the reveal is over, people market for a day and
forget about it.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
I want to one hundred percent agree with you, But
there is something about Jericho that if it's him, I
think people will, actually, I would say, more rightfully than
your framing it, get hung up on the fact that
the guy they picked to play Jericho should have been
shorter than the guy who is.

Speaker 4 (57:55):
Who is You haven't seen his new lifts yet, you
don't know.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
He doesn't wear lifts. He called He called me and
told me once he doesn't word lifts. That was something, well.

Speaker 4 (58:05):
Even a way to cover that. You know, Jericho just
had people in the position when he couldn't be there.
That sort of a thing. There's an easy way.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Yes, I've been on Jericho's podcast since he called me
to say he didn't wear it lifts.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
We're good. I just am saying one.

Speaker 4 (58:19):
Time Jericho's podcast, I think I missed that one.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
I think Austin therey is much more likely and I
think I don't think Jericho wants to come back and
be part of this kind of like you know, people
talk about that don Kallis family being this like sort
of eclectic, odd mix of different wrestlers and some overlapping
and like it is weird, but they seem to be playing.
I don't put so I'm finished at that point. I
don't think Jericho wants to be in a faction with Logan,

(58:45):
Paul and Brown Breaker and Bronson Reed and Seth Rollins
eventually or not or whatever and get lost in the
mix of that. I think he wants to come back
and it's all about him, like, not him in a faction,
not that you know, he should turned down a chance
to be part of Paul Hyman action, but there's just
I just don't I think Jericho wants to come back,
and it's just all about him as a solo centerpiece

(59:06):
act in a in a in a final chapter, you know,
or potential final chapter.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
Oh yeah, I don't think he'd be in the group.
I just think it would be he was out to
get punk that's or you know, whatever they're doing. Okay,
I don't think he has to be port. They haven't
really they haven't made a definitive that like Hayman and
company know who it is that's true.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
I mean bron Breaker's like he was acting. He was
at least feigning being irritated. But that could also be
somebody who wants to pretend he didn't want help, but
he did and he knew.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
Sure Yep, yeah, I think both.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
I think based on what we've seen in Cannon, both
are possibilities that bron genuinely was ierked and he's out
of the loop. Doesn't mean Haman's not orchestrating it, or
Bronson reads and orchestrating it, or Logan Paul's not, but
or he's in on it.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
He just is denying it, and I think he is
a possibility. I was notable though last night on Raw.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Like you know, I think people Paul Himan's aware that
Logan Pol's kind of a weird fit.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Like Logan.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
It seemed like the guy that that Bronson read and
Brown breakerud want to hang out with. Like, so having
Logan in the group is kind of weird, And I
think that's why Paul Hayman kind of said as he
trailed off, I like this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
I'm sorry, but I like this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:11):
Like it was almost like even if the Bronze are
kind of looking at at Logan, going, eah, he's not
our He's he's got a different energy than I want
to be. It's like I always felt about Mojo Raley.
It's like, I just I can't be around with someone
of that energy. It's just it's not my vibe. And
and I feel like that's how the Brons feel about Logan.
It's like, Okay, whatever, you're successful, you're worth you know,
one hundred fifty million or whatever, go do your thing,

(01:00:34):
but my god, you're you're just too much for us.
But Haman is sort of almost acknowledging that and almost
apologizing in advance, like, ay.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
But I like this guy. I don't know what to say.
So I'm curious where it goes.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Like when they were so Hayman's standing behind the Bronx,
they're sitting in the chair and Logan Paul enters the room.
Hayman kind of like nudges braun I Bronson reed let
almost like oh here he had shut up one of
those kind of nudges. So yeah, I think it's it's
it's pretty obvious they're just kind of stringing him along
from now and getting what they can out of him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Okay, So the idea is the endgame Logan turns Babyface
or or what like, what if they're using Logan does
that and and and so yeah, that's that question.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
First. I won't colcat it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
I mean, it may be something where they use him
for a long time, okay, because it is Paul Hayman
and he likes it. To his credit, comes up with these.
It's just he creates scenarios where the characters play off
at one They're not all just kind of standing there
saying their own thing. And as we saw the bloodline,
and it can all connect. And so yeah, I'm hoping

(01:01:41):
that it's not just a quick thing. But with Logan
Paul schedule, I guess you never know. Babyface I am.
I know people push back on this because we just
went through that where he teased being with CM Punk
and a lot of people just they didn't think like
he could be a baby I still argue that you
can make anybody your babyface if you do it right.

(01:02:04):
You know, some are going to be more successful than others.
But even Logan Paul as much of a d bag
as people see him, I think if you do the
turn right, people will cheer him.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's risky, but
I don't I don't rule out.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
You can make it work for sure in the right
in the right context.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
And I'd be in no run to do it though.
I mean yeah, I'm just saying yeah, term at some
point he probably will have a babyface run.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Yep, yep, I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
If you missed it earlier, just a reminder, we're running
our second VIP sale of the year. We don't do
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription
a one month, three month, or one year sub It
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twenty twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When

(01:02:56):
you check out on our sign up form pw torch
dot com, slash o v IP gives you full details
on membership benefits and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Links to our sign up form. All right, well, there's
so many thing we talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Let's shift to to a w in the Contown Classic
for a moment here and then I'm definitely want to
make sure we have time for emails too. We have well,
what's the we have the issue with Darby leaving the tournament.
That's a bumber because that was one of the things
some of the matchups I was looking forward to. And
Darby's whole topic, you know, is is he is? Is

(01:03:32):
the abuse that he put his body through, sometimes excessively
relative to what benefit there was to the story he
was telling in the ring and the crowd reaction was
going for in sometimes on camera and probably routinely off
camera too, you know, like it wasn't just just to
try to get crowd pops. It's just kind of whatever
he's hardwired for. It is Is this that catching up

(01:03:55):
to him? Or should we not come across as people
waiting to seize the moment to go a you're going
too far? And it really it's just, hey, sometimes people
can banged up, and let let's not use this as
a way to wake our finger and say, you see,
you should have learned your lesson.

Speaker 4 (01:04:07):
Yeah, I would not do that. But what I'm hoping
it does is, you know, hopefully it's something that Okay,
it was just a stinger or you know, something minor,
and everything is great. But I also hope that it
does make Derby stop and think, because it's one thing
to do those stunts and you're able to bounce back,
but until you fear that, oh, this one I might

(01:04:29):
not bounce back from. You know, I think that's the
one that's going to make you look at things differently.
If anything, will you know, he just might be that
guy that that is what it is. But I'm hoping
that this could be something that causes him to tone
it down and you know, Derby's going to be Derby,
but there's you could still you know, you could be Derby.

(01:04:50):
I don't know if he's convinced himself that he has
to do these things to get over with the crowd,
because I don't think he does. I think he is
very popular, not because of the stunts, but because of
his personality, because of his look, because of the other
things he does in the ret and I'd like to
see him have a long career. I mean, he's gonna

(01:05:12):
do what he wants, but yeah, I would really like
to think that as possible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
So they're replacing him with Jack Perry, what do you
think of that as a replacement. Is he like well,
style wise he can have you know, some of the
matches we imagine Derby having. I mean they're different wrestlers
for sure, but style wise it kind of fits. It's
not we don't really have to change a lot up.
Maybe Perry does an extra job that Darby wouldn't would
not have done. But is he is he a good say?

(01:05:42):
I know there's some complaints like, oh they should have
you know, put Kenny O Meghan or Hangman Page like
really strengthened the tournament. And Jack Perry is a step
down because he's just in a tag team right now
and not like a former headliner like or you know,
basically a current headliner like Darby has been.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
But are are you okay with it?

Speaker 4 (01:05:59):
I mean I can. I'd rather see others in there,
in part because Jack Perry I see now as a
tag team wrestler. Again. Great, you know we have Kevin Knight,
Mike Bailey and there too in their tag team guys.
But yeah, I mean it's there. They're pillars, I guess
if you want to look at it that way. But

(01:06:20):
if Jack Perry, the heel had been in this, okay,
he was a singles wrestler, the tag team guy. But
I just assume like it's well. I'll tell you the
guy was hoping it was was Kyle O'Reilly, just because
it seemed like he's coming off that big thing over
Moxley and they said he couldn't be in. Roderick Strong

(01:06:42):
was the guy who replaced him, and I was hoping
it was. Well, but he's good enough for this. You know,
he's now he's ready after a little bit more time.
And I think that would have been fun. You would
have had those good matches, and I think a tournament
like this is perfect for a guy like O'Reilly. But yeah,
I mean there's others, but I think with a tournament
like this, it's going to be booked, it better be
booked well in advance, and so you're not going to

(01:07:04):
throw in some big name and have them do just
as many take just as many losses as I think
Darby was going to in this tournament. I don't think
Darby is a guy who is going to win this,
and so you know, just looking at his his block,
I would guess that Okata and Fletcher and maybe pack

(01:07:27):
All we're going to finish you ahead of Darby and
so yeah, it's like you said, maybe Perry takes one
more loss or something like that, but it's not going
to be anything that affects the overall block.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Is there anything else in the tournament at this point
that has surprised you in an impressive way or been
a letdown so far?

Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
I think the pleasant surprise is that they've taken a
couple of chances with some upsets that it just hasn't
been They have kind of had that issue for me
with the tournament, like, yeah, there's there's good wrestling, but
when you feel like you know who's going to win
most matches, it gets a little tiresome.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
And are you talking about Claudio over Mox and Kevin Knight.

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
I think it was Night one when what was the
first match? Was it night beating? Oh gosh, it was
and I'm looking to hear uh that was Darby?

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Yeah, and to me that was an upset, oh for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
Yeah. And just so things like that just kind of
setting the tone that, hey, this can happen, because I
don't think enough of that has happened in the past tournaments.
And I'm hoping, you know, you don't want to go
crazy with it or then it's just none of it matters.
But if you do key surprises, I don't think Claudio
beating Mox was a surprise, just because of where they're

(01:08:51):
at and the story line.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Yeah, but what about what about Fletcher beating Ocata again?

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Yes, yeah, back to back years. I mean, he did
beat him the year before. But still I look at it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
If the Vikings beat the Bears again, that will still
be an upset. Even if they beat him in the
first week of the season. Sure, yeah, you know, I
mean you can, you can have someone's number, but still
it still feels like an upset, you know, an unexpected
outcome going in right.

Speaker 4 (01:09:16):
Yeah, And so I did think this was the Bikers
are running.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
The table and by then it won't be an upset.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Yeah, and it still won't be enough to getting the playoffs,
I know, but but yeah, I mean I think most
of us looked at this as okay, probably an Okata
and uh to cash this tournament in a lot of ways.
And so you're thinking, like they're going to get Ocat
off to a big start, and then he comes in
and loses to Fletcher right away, and then oh man,
he's got a face pack who they seem to be

(01:09:41):
trying to build up in the next match, so that's
not a gimme. Just little things like that go a
long way.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:09:48):
So, I mean I think we're a little too early
in the tournament to where it's worth spending a ton
of time on you know, predictions or anything like that.
I mean, the Gold League is it's, you know, very
early in the Gold Lea. I don't know, like mox
isn't likely to win unless they really tell a story here.

(01:10:09):
But uh, yeah, I don't know, or so I don't know. Yeah,
I'm I don't. I think I don't think we have
a super different impression now than we did going in,
because it's just the way they book it. They want
to throw some red herrings out there and and tell
certain stories. But you do you like overall the presentation
this year, and do you do you notice anything different

(01:10:30):
than in past years in terms of how this is
being presented, Because I'm not going to get angry anymore
that it's not loaded with all every top star like
it just isn't, so we can be mad every you're
about it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
But what I what I wish they would do is
explain it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
But they might think we don't really have a good explanation.
We just are going to have our you know, half
the top guys are going to be doing separate things,
and half the top guys are going to be in it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
I wish, and I said this last year.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
I wish they just said, you know, it's a random
draw or people put their names in and and and
we have X number of spots for people who have
been champion before, we have X number of spots for
people who are primarily take wrestlers, and we have a
couple spots for people who are underdogs but feel like
this can be their chance to make a name for
themselves and use that as structurally explaining why a Kevin Knight,

(01:11:15):
for instance, is in the tournament instead of Hangman Page.
And I think that's simple enough to do, and it
sort of locks them in format wise, but they can
also make a variation next year if they want to.
But I'm all for having an explanation so people aren't
left wondering what went into this and whire some people
in it and not. And I don't think they've done
that in a way that satisfies me. But maybe I

(01:11:37):
miss something in their selection process. This year that where
you think they did a better job.

Speaker 4 (01:11:42):
No, no, but I do think the two leagues are
a little deeper than they've been with good talent. No,
not even just higher on the card talent. Yeah. I
think the only guy that I look at is Roderick
Strong and you know, hey, he's gonna go in there
and delivered good matches. That that's and and take some losses.

(01:12:03):
That's his Uh, that's his role. And even he was
again an alternate, so uh, poor Kyle O'Reilly. And I
think overall looks like a pretty good group. The one
thing that I was not fond of was Moscar Dorata
beating Claudio after Claudio just beat Moxley and I know,

(01:12:24):
well he's worn out from this. What No, Just the
guy has a little momentum. Don't cut it off the
very next show just a few days later. If you
want to have Dorada beat him, do it somewhere down
the road. Let let this guy build up a little
momentum right now.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
All right, let's talk about the TNA TV deal with AMC.
What do you what do you make of this?

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
There's multiple angles to it. They have more money, not
enough to really compete, but enough to keep some names
or you know, pay their guys who they believe in
a little bit better. And then you have the aspect of,
you know, it's another night of the week of wrestling,
will it peel off some people with limited time because Michael,
now I have access to it, and I like this

(01:13:06):
better than Collision, or I like this better than SmackDown,
And you know, doesn't show up obviously in the numbers,
but it is there that some people are just choosing
to go with this company. And are they in a
position now compared to say, a year and a half ago,
to seize this opportunity and do well or do you
think they're They're in trouble unless they can really shake
things up and at a few names or do something different.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
It's not an ideal time for them in terms of
where they're at creatively and the roster they have. They've
certainly been better not all that long ago. The roster
is a little depleted. They're still only I mean, hey,
there's some good talent there and creatively, it's just we
haven't had enough of a sample size of what Hunter

(01:13:49):
Johnston and Tommy Dreamer together have to offer. I'm a
little concerned based on what they did at Bound for
Glory with giving Mike's well, I should say Bound for
Glory giving him, like Santana, that championship, and then the
very next show that's live, granted was like a month later,
but still the very next Impact show that I was
first run, they took the title off of Santana, and

(01:14:11):
I'm guessing it's because they think, oh, we can build
up to the rematch for AMC. I thought, you're you're
cutting the legs out from under Santana, even if it's temporary,
and I think that could it just wasn't worth the risk.
He may be fine, but I don't think it was
worth the risk of doing that. And I'm not crazy
about them, even though I enjoy Frankie Gazerion and for

(01:14:34):
a while, I mean, it's been a while now, I've
been saying, like, I can see this guy. I've been
run with the championship. He's been that good since he's
come back to TNA. Just I don't like the timing
of it. I don't like going into the first show
on AMC and I haven't seen the taping results, but
presumably he goes in as the world champion, and it's

(01:14:54):
if you're somebody that hasn't watched TNA Impact in a while. Okay, yeah,
you may remember him from the good old days of
the company, but you also may remember him as being
the guy that was an SCU for a long time. Uh,
and you did some things in aw but you know,
they were I think the first tag team champions. But
and he just wasn't. I don't think anyone has looked

(01:15:16):
at him as like a high end singles star with
having that type of upside in a long time, whether
it's fair or not. Because again, he's been doing good
work and he's found his voice. There's a lot to
like and I think if people give it a chance,
they're they're going to be impressed with what Cazarian does
now as far as his mic work is concerned. And

(01:15:39):
he's always been good in the ring. But yeah, it's uh,
it's not an ideal time either. And if they if
this company was smart and I don't know if they've
done this or not, they have a lot of deals
up reportedly up at the end of the year. If
they were smart with they have already handled those negotiations
before they made the TV And oh yeah, I know,

(01:16:01):
if they didn't, I mean not only are they running
the risk of the restlers obviously wanting more money, but
now you're got Tony Kawn looking at they're saying, guy, Okay,
we can make room for some more people. So yeah,
I just don't know if they did. I have no
idea how they handled that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it'll also analyze key segments and give my random
thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(01:16:48):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pewtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay
per views. I cover those live at pw torch dot
com with a detailed written report with star ratings, and
of course, you can find other TV reports from other
contributors to PW torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling
and more. Check it out pw torch dot com. You'rer

(01:17:09):
first stop for TV and pay per view written reports. Yeah,
interesting possibility there of if they didn't time this outright,
did they sabotize sabotage themselves? Although I mean I don't

(01:17:33):
have like a list of like obvious people that TNA
should hire. But if they have no money to spend,
they o you want to make a big splash. But
hopefully they've got an idea of some names that now
we got the budget and we couldn't get them before,
but now maybe we can.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Again.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
I don't know if they can do that in the
next month, but they have a chance to be a
little more competitive and let you know, you know, retain uh,
retain the people who are kind of core people and
eventually look around for somebody who feels underutilized elsewhere and
you bring them in and help them make a big splash.

(01:18:08):
But what I guess, what is TNA's identity in the
six day a week lineup?

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
You know, Monday through Saturday? Now a first run to
to plus friends with.

Speaker 4 (01:18:19):
The next say that again, we're friends with the next team.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Well, right, they got to have something else in that
I know, and.

Speaker 4 (01:18:26):
I don't know that they do right now, that's that's
the thing. Mike Satana's great. I really enjoy him there
in the Hardys. I think even though I think we've
kind of we were getting to the point where the
kind of the thrill, the peak thrill of the Hardy's
and and this run in TNA was probably going to
start moving down, not just skip falling off a cliff.

(01:18:49):
But I think the peak of it has already probably occurred.
But now they're back in front of a different nod
that may breathe a lot of life into it for
the people who weren't seeing that and have that hearty nostalgia.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
That will help.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
But it's, yeah, the identity, it's it's no longer we
have the best women's division, No, not even close. Not
right now. They're rebuilding there because they've lost a lot
of people. The X division isn't what it once was.
The Yeah, there's just a lot of things that are
not as strong as they were not all that long ago.
And you know, it's a shame that didn't happen when

(01:19:24):
Scott Demore was booking this company. That was a really
good time for them, and I was worried when he left,
like creatively, they're going to fall off a cliff and
they didn't, so it's you know, it's not just all Scott.
But he really did do a good job of booking
that product with the loan exception of you know, putting
himself on television too often, but I think that was
a good time and they also had a lot of

(01:19:46):
depth there that right now they're kind of lacking. But yeah,
we'll see.

Speaker 5 (01:19:50):
What they do.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
I do worry that you got you have these contracts
expiring and now the talent if they're not signed, if
they didn't sign beforehand, they're going to know like, hey,
we've got some left share. You know, it makes sense
to talk to everybody right now and see what Tony
Kahan has to offer. And I don't know that WWE
is really going to go at them. I think it's
going to be a little more courteous, like, hey, we

(01:20:12):
intend to take Joe Hendry, like you know, I think
they've known for a while and they worked out the
deal where he could leave early, so you know, I
think it's going to be that. It's not going to
be blind side where we just took your top guy
because he was a free agent, and know, we forgot
to tell you we're going to do that. So, you know,
being with WWE is going to help them. And I'm

(01:20:32):
curious to see just how much WWE does to promote
them now that they're on a higher profile network that
is not a WWE partner. And yeah, I really want
to see what Tony Khan's reaction to this is going
to be. You know, he hasn't commented really on it
publicly or anything. So is he looking at this going okay,

(01:20:55):
you know, hey, the rascals might be up. They'd look
good in AW. So there's a lot of questions here.
And then one other thing about because people are gonna
start comparing AMC numbers to AW whether it's dynamite or collision.
You know, it's going to happen, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
I think the one key thing to remember is that
AMC is known for Sunday nights a little bit of

(01:21:17):
Monday nights because they did have Better Call Saul and
there's no Saraku was a show I watched in Monday nights.
I couldn't tell you what the hell happens on that
network for the rest of the week. It's yeah, it
was The Walking Dead and mad Men and all those
shows on Sunday, and so I think they're kind of
trying to use TNA to give themselves another night. Makes sense,

(01:21:37):
but it's not like it's a destination channel for people
as it is during anything other than I think Sunday
and Monday. And they're not going to have any kind
of a lead in similar to what the Big Bang
Theory does for Dynamite.

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
I mean the AMC programs that did because it's outside
of Walking Down, they just have Wrestling is going to
be like their top rated show, like it's there.

Speaker 4 (01:22:06):
Uh and even though I mean we're like season three
of Darryl and Carol or whatever, like we're scraping the
bottom of the barrel of the Walking Dead here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Yeah, the top I've got a list of the top
thirty shows that I just pulled up here that somebody
in the industry sent me when this deal went through,
and they're.

Speaker 2 (01:22:21):
They're the best.

Speaker 1 (01:22:23):
Christmas Marathon drew nine hundred and six thousand people, and
then it drops to five hundred and forty two thousand
for Christmas All the Way, Christmas All the Way then
that through five p forty two. Naughty or Nice Weekend
did four fifty two Best Elf Marathon did three hundred
one thousand. Holiday Hangover did three hundred and twenty nine thousand,

(01:22:43):
Mary Eighties Marathon to three and eighty five thousand. Everything
Is Christmas is three hundred and eighty After that, nothing
did more than three thousand viewers. And everything I just
told you was a Christmas themed show. So there's there's
not a series that they're putting money into. And it's
understandable to move where money when money goes into something

(01:23:05):
now unless you like you said, they've got a Sunday night,
and that's what we're known for. And that's why cable
companies pay the rights fees because Sunday is a destination
enough that cable companies want to carry us and we
can pay it. We can charge a carriage fee and
that's a business rent. But it's like you know, T
and T and TBS moved in USA moved away from
it too, because Netflix and Apple, TV Plus and HBO
they're all putting money into original series and they've taken

(01:23:28):
away the niche. It's really hard to have to get
your money back on original programming. Now, you know, a
Lifetime movie and Hallmark they can make their movies. They
have their niche and they can still survive on that.
But try to get a drama to gain traction five
nights a week when you're not a streaming service with
a huge budget, it's almost impossible. And that's where you know,

(01:23:51):
AMC is not it's not a it's not a junk network,
but it's not what it once was, and they do
not have anything, like you said, outside of you know,
Walking Walking Dead, And you know, obviously there's been some
hits over the over the last fifteen years that are
associated with AMC and that some people subscribed to AMC
plus four, but it's it. TNA's not kind a huge press.

(01:24:14):
But I guess the full circle point to this is
TNA is not gonna have high pressure to compete and
perform above what other things are going on there. They're
gonna be happy to have something that people care enough
about to watch on a weekly basis that also will
help them with their carriage fees that they charge cable distributors, going, hey,
we have this other show that people really are addicted
to DNA wrestling and it's you know, three four hundred

(01:24:35):
thousand people, but they they want this and if you
take it away, they're going to be mad.

Speaker 4 (01:24:40):
It's it'll be interesting because I believe with are they
starting this at eight central, nine Eastern rather than seven central?
Do we know that part? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
I probably did. I probably knew, but I didn't pay
a lot of attention either way.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
What what?

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
Why why do you bring that up?

Speaker 4 (01:24:58):
I'd go earlier, because again, what are you gonna get
for a lead in from them? What show do they
have that gonna give you anything going in? I mean,
and it's gonna be the six with the six thirty
show or whatever it would be.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
But still is that I mean, is that still a thing?

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
I mean, other than the boost that big Bang theory
gives when it has a huge audience leading into a
wrestling show, So you get a little bit better average
over time because for three minutes, people aren't changing the
channel right away. I mean, I don't think people are
loyal to a network where they're like, well, I'm I
watch this syndicated show or this show, and now I'm
gonna watch TNA wrestling because it's I'm too I don't

(01:25:36):
want to change a channel. I mean, I so much
is so much of life is no one to man,
I don't even know that lead ins matter much anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:25:42):
Yeah, I mean, maybe you might be onto something there.
I just know it's been a really big thing for
aw Dynamite. I did to have that show as a
lead in, and obviously, you know, they get their lead
ins from sports, sometimes with Collision and unfortunately for them,
not enough if you've seen the collision numbers lately. But yeah,
I mean I'm very curious to see just what P

(01:26:04):
and A draws or what kind of numbers they generate.
And it's been a long time since they've you would
get the occasional show that would like Crack the Top
one hundred or something like that. At one time that
of the Thursday night cable ratings, and now they're you know,
we're going to know where this company is at. And yeah,

(01:26:26):
and I'm curious to see how much WWE not only
helps with the promotion, but also like do they really
amp things up and send some people there. There's a
lot of speculation that maybe AJ Styles will finally have
that match in TNA, and I know it's kind of
been reporting now they're not going to do that. That's
what I would put out there too if I wanted
to surprise people in creation. So yeah, I do think

(01:26:48):
that's probably in play.

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
But an All Star NBAL Star Saturday, and then AW
collision followed and they just went cold to the ring
for a match with no context, and it just blew
my mind. What you know, Like, there's rarely, rarely do
I think a lead in means anything. I think prosing
fans watch a prosing store, they're going to watch. I
think if you're watching Big Bank Theory, an AW wrestling

(01:27:11):
is on, yes to a degree. If you're a regular
Big Bank Theory I viewer and you're a candidate to
be a wrestling fan, you're now inevitably aware of AW.
But you were going to be aware of them because
of all the ads on TNT, NBA or you know
what it like, you know they exist. But yeah, there's
a little bit of a bonus. But mostly I've seen
in the minute by minutes the lead in makes a
difference because for three to the first three to four

(01:27:31):
minutes you get double the viewership. Not not quite double,
but like there's people who just don't turn the channel
for the first three minutes, and then that gets baked
into the average quarter hour, and then people who only
report quarter hours don't take into account the fact that
it just got an artificial boost from people who aren't
even watching it, just their TV happened to be on
for three extra minutes. But if you if you take
that away, nothing is really all that different. So I

(01:27:52):
but but the NBAL Star was an example of Aw's
missed opportunity. That should have been a chance to go, Hey,
NBA fans, you know Tony Shabana, here Tom what we
want to introduce you to this product. We have a
match you're gonna want to stick around for and and
and here is what.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
It's all about. And take your two coolest wrestlers and have.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
Them cut promos while you're showing highlights on a on
a on a you know, in set screen and and here's.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
The stakes and and you're gonna be blown away.

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
Let's get to the ring for the match, like you know,
little sound bites actually and set the stage, talk about
what's at stake, and then you know, get and then
do your most cool ring entrance and make sure you've
got a big building with a full audience, like really
make an impression on the fans who were watching the
NBA l Star festivities.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
And they made.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
They could not have done a worse job with less
effort to make it feel special than they did. And
it still irks me to this day that they did,
like anyone would take advantage of that the way that
they didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
I'm with you, but I think in Tony cons it's
just a philosophical thing. I think he matcs are the key,
and maybe hopefully he's learned since then they're like, no,
they're not Tony, you know, it's he just he's so
caught up in that mindset that I think that's what
it was for him, Like, let's get people in the
ring right away. They're going to get hooked on this match,
and it's like, no, that that's just not how it

(01:29:06):
goes with more casual viewers or just uh even just
non fans, like you're not gonna hook them and that way.
I'm sorry, it's going to be storytelling and things of
that nature.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
Totally agree. Yeah, all right, let's get to uh, let's
get to mail bank.

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
Here. We've got an email from uh Sophie who says
I emailed a few months ago comparing and contrasting Hangman
Page and seth Rawlins and how their life experiences shape
the characters we see. I remember that that was good,
and I had similar thought about two people who I
think are an even more star. Contrasts that being Austin Theory,
who's a widely rumored man under the mask, and Eddie Kingston,

(01:29:41):
who will be wrestling for the aw title this week.
Eddie Kingston clearly lacks so many of the tangible factors
that Austin Theory has, such as athleticism, youth, conventional attractiveness. Conversely, though,
I think Theory clearly lacks the intangible factors that Eddie
Kingston has, mainly a connection with the audience. I could
listen to a ninety second eight Kingston prom would be
able to pretty much tell you his life story and

(01:30:02):
what makes him tick as wrestling character. In the years
I've been watching Austin Theory, I know nothing about him.
You could tell me he grew up in an urban area,
I'd have no reason to believe you. You can tell
me he grew up in a commune raised by doomsday cultests,
and I'd have no reason not to believe you, although
I think if that was true, I probably would have
heard about it. I'd like this emailer to make this
into a question.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
If you think this is accurate, then isn't the right
move with Theory not to bring him back in this
high profile spot, which is continuing the issue that would
be has with this presentation, which is that they've constantly
been telling us we should care about Theory because he's
with Vince, because he's wrestling Sena, because he wins money
in the bank, et cetera. But instead telling us why
was she care about him because of the high profile
spot he's put in, they should take a slight step

(01:30:40):
back and tell us why we should care about him,
and then maybe when he's in those high profile spots
we would care, take care and have a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:30:47):
Guys.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
So instead of telling us we should care about him
because of the high profile spot, make us care about
him so we believe he fits in the high profile spot.
So that's kind of the key point there. I will
say to this, Jason, my short answer and I'll throw
to you for the longer thought is in Paul Hayman.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
We trust.

Speaker 1 (01:31:06):
Like if if Austin Theory is gonna be the guy,
then that means Paul Hayman endorses this, that he's because
Paul has the cloud to go.

Speaker 2 (01:31:16):
No, I don't want to spend time on this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:31:18):
There is a history of Seth and Austin theory is
also being an underlaying Austin theory as good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
Now I'm going along with that plan. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
He has good dead pan humor and NXT like he
had a knack for comedy, but that is mid cart
like if you're not, if you're not Olympic gold medalist,
that kind of comedy is gonna gonna, you know, keep
you kind of down. But he's been off TV long
enough that I think people would be willing to look
at him, be the guy and then go all right,
you got my attention for five minutes, sell me on it,

(01:31:46):
as opposed to oh, it's him. I'm not buying it
because I think even fans would go if he's in,
if he's in with Hayman in this group, they might
I gotta stay tuned. I'm willing to give it a chance.

Speaker 4 (01:31:59):
He worked with Curtis at in that way where people
willing to at least give it a chance.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
Yes, And so that is a key.

Speaker 1 (01:32:05):
Is Austin theory gonna be another Curtis Axle story where
when will will they be using the same sentence in
five years?

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
It's like a Curtis ax Aston theory thing. It just
didn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:32:13):
They tried, it didn't work. The guy just didn't have it. Well,
that remains to be seen, and that might happen. But
I think there's I think there's room for wrestlers who
have the contrasting intangibles or qualities. They're not even necessarily
in tangibles, just they're tangible factors. As as off he
put it, it's tangible, it is. It's clear Austin theory

(01:32:36):
has has a more conventional luck. You put him on
a poster, people oh he's a pro wrestler, and and
and well people probably think any Kingston's prowser too. So
we are running our second v i P sale of
the year. You want to take advantage of this. If
you've thought of going v P or let your sub lapse,
had to step away for a while, it's a good

(01:32:56):
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(01:33:18):
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(01:33:41):
and also the new Wadkeller news bulletins that come in
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a laptop screen, an all text version which is great
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run about sixteen minutes in terms of podcast length, and
it is a new feature. I'm running two three four
times a week. I'm going to try to increase that
as my schedule adjust to this new feature.

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
So check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
Pw Torch dot com slash Go VIP coupon code n
Ov twenty five to take nine dollars off a one
month three month or one year sub.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
Anyway. Yeah, so what do you think about that contrast
and what he's saying.

Speaker 4 (01:34:18):
Yeah, give me the guy that I know the backstory
for if I like the backstory over the guy that
I don't that they're just hey, here's a wrestler and
you don't know anything about him. I'm totally with him
on that, But with Theory, I need to know what
the role is before I can really get excited about it.
I'm totally willing to give it a chance, but I'm

(01:34:39):
not going to be at all surprised if this is. Yeah,
he's coming in and we're gonna give him a bit
of a push, but he's really here to be the
fall guy or the vision because they have figured out
that it shouldn't be Bronson retaking all those losses, because
I think that was originally how they had him pegged
when it was seth and the Bronze is Bronton Reid

(01:35:01):
was going to be the guy to take those hels.
Now I think they see more in Bronton Reid, and
I think it might be Theory taking those hells.

Speaker 1 (01:35:10):
Yeah, I mean that is very possible, and it's not
It's not bad to have someone in that role, and
if you're ast in theory, it might not be a
dream come true.

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
But it also isn't a bad spot to be in,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:35:22):
I mean, it is a job and you're playing a role,
and you can eventually overcome it when you're still in
your twenties, which he is so and when I say
overcome it, you can rise above it. I shouldn stay
overcome because that makes it seem like there's something bad happening.
There's there's a there's a role for everybody, and some
people have very specific roles on sports teams and they're

(01:35:43):
happy to have it. Joe Ingles on the Timber Rooves,
the only thing he ever does is inbound a ball
with less than two minutes left in the game. That's
his only job because they trust him to make a
really good decision with the ball. Or it's in a
thirty point blowout and he comes in and you know,
Jack's up a three in the Utah fans cheer for
it to go in, even though he's not on their
team anymore, like they're just they're novelty paper. There's people
who are very specific role players, and theory can be

(01:36:04):
a role player in that way. I also don't rule
out they have higher aspirations for him, and they think
this is this is someone you're not going to give
up on yet, and there's something here, and Paul Hayman
wants to maybe make up for what didn't work with
Curtis Axel, for instance, and turn this guy into into
a big star.

Speaker 2 (01:36:21):
And I think we're gonna be.

Speaker 1 (01:36:22):
Able to tell pretty quickly what they're what their aspirations
are if it's Austin theory. And I mean I would
I would bet on that right now. If I had
to bet on someone, i'd bet on theory.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
But I'm not eager.

Speaker 1 (01:36:33):
I'm not eager to make the bet because I think
there could be something different. But but if it is
Austin theory, I knew all along, and I just was pretending.

Speaker 4 (01:36:42):
Who will pay attention to the body type. I'm not
the type, but the height and all that that people
are kind of hung up on.

Speaker 1 (01:36:49):
Well, if it's been Austin theory all along, it'll be
a non issue, right Yeah, But I don't I don't know.
I'm not too I mean, I don't like if it
turns out to be like Ivar, it'd be ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (01:37:02):
Oh yes, body. Yeah, that's that's different. Yeah, as well
as it's somebody slender and if within reason, I mean,
you're not gonna put Hey it was Hornswog all along.

Speaker 1 (01:37:13):
Right, Yeah, I don't think people I think it would be.
I feel like i'm it's the answer is self evident.
It shouldn't be a big deal, and I feel guilty
giving attention to people who want to turn that into
a big deal, even on the show.

Speaker 2 (01:37:26):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
Next, Nicholas from Massachusetts, I think tonight's Ross showed us
he said this last night showed another polyback booking habit,
multi person in multi team feuds. It started earlier this
year on SmackDown with the entire men's Tag division feuding
with each other Romans, Seampunks, Death Rollins and alien n I,
Cmpunk jus so the Vision, and now with the women's
Tag division all feuding together and now the raw men's
Tag division.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
I really don't like this approach.

Speaker 1 (01:37:47):
Not only am I not sure who I'm supposed to cheer,
but I also feel like it's extra homework to figure
out the relationships between everyone. On top of that, it
just seems like everyone's always feuding with everyone. So matchups
don't seem interesting even when two wrestlers finally feued with
just each other. Well, I appreciate long term storytelling and
rewarding fans for paying attention. I think these multiperson multi
team feuds require too much concentration. It makes me enjoy

(01:38:07):
the product less. I miss the days when I could
tune in, identify the active feuds, and instantly know how
to cheer in who to boo. I don't watch wrestling
because I want to think deeply about what I'm watching.
I want to turn off my brain and re repect
my eight year old enjoyment of good versus evil.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
Well, you might enjoy Tna like I.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
Talked about Taybe kind of time capsle wrestling, honestly like that.
And I've said that Tenna's nich should be we just
make it simple. We're just gonna have someone who's obnoxious,
who you want to boo. We're gonna have so many
smiles and is a good guy. They don't have to
fit a certain mold other than that, but they're just
there's somebody you want to root for and somebody you
don't want to root for. And it's one on one
or two on two and we're just gonna keep it simple.
He's obnoxious. He seems like someone I'd want to hang

(01:38:46):
out with or be my neighbor, or be my basketball
coach for my kids. I gotta root for him against
this idiot. But yeah, so, but anyway, that's Tena's niche
Let make Nicholas happy, people turn their brains off.

Speaker 2 (01:39:01):
And just enjoy clear cut good receivl.

Speaker 1 (01:39:03):
But yeah, I mean, I think on more to Nicholas's
point than that it is a paulo ec trademark, and
I it's how do we get all these people on
TV without giving them each individual segments. We'll just have
them all stand. It's like they used to do with
the divas back in the day. I'll all stand on
camera and they each get to bicker or shoot each
other a look. And it's a short cut without giving
a lot of TV time to people they don't think

(01:39:24):
draw on minute by minute numbers, or they just don't
have time for because they're not big fish.

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
And I would rather be off.

Speaker 1 (01:39:31):
I'd rather people off TV more often and rotate people
in than have a bunch of you know, my phrase
for a lot of Polo X booking is ambiguity.

Speaker 2 (01:39:40):
Leads to ambivalence.

Speaker 4 (01:39:41):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:42):
I think when you're not clear to cheer for, the
fans just end up sitting on their hands, and I
think we see that too often. And if I'm him,
I course correct next year and move away from that.

Speaker 4 (01:39:50):
I agree with both of you guys, but I will
say the women's tag thing, I think they just might
be setting up some big multi team thing either, if
nothing else else, I'm happy that it's been awkward, and
I still the problem is still there. You don't know
exactly who they want you to cheer for, but it
does feel like they are making those titles more important

(01:40:13):
by establishing that. Hey, look at these teams that have
meaningful wrestlers that want those titles. So you have to
start somewhere with that, and I think they've done a
pretty good job. I was disappointed the last night. It
was like there was really no follow up on that.
It was okay, you know, the Kabuki Warriors still have
issues with EO and Rhea, and then Bailey and Lyra

(01:40:37):
are back to feuding with Roxanne and Raquel and now Live.
There really wasn't any hey, where did all these other
teams go? There just was no follow up because I
was waiting for well or on the January fifth show,
we're doing some big tag team ladder match or turmoil
or something insane. And I'm not even endorsing that, by
the way, I'm just saying I could see them doing that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:58):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
What is at the top of your list for what
you think Paul Becks should do differently in in in
this realm or do you like, like, is it just
it's good but it's too much, or there's a way
to do as much as he's doing but tweak it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:17):
Worry on this?

Speaker 4 (01:41:18):
Give me a specific example.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
So what just where where you.

Speaker 1 (01:41:22):
Have a division where it's a cluster of instances where
whether it's women's tag, men's tag, or individual individual feuds
where uh like like he uh pointed out, Uh bring
it up. You had Roman and punkin seth or l
and I ce on Punk Jay us in the vision

(01:41:43):
like where it's top people but they're just they're all
kind of intertwined and it just so is there a
way to make that work but it's and and as
often as he does it, if he just tweaked something
or is it conceptually something he should just pick one
thing per every three four month period to do, but
exclude the other instances and make everything else just clear.
It's one team against one team or one wrestle against

(01:42:05):
one wrestler.

Speaker 4 (01:42:06):
Yeah, I mean Wrestling Mania by and large. I want
singles matches. I want single showdown matches, and I was disappointed,
even though the two triple threats stole the show. I
was disappointed going in, like, really, we're not getting the
big single showdown, We're getting triple threats. Just feels like
the easy way out. Yeah, this year, I'm almost endorsing one,
which would be punk Rolins Breaker, because it's been set

(01:42:29):
up pretty well. You know, the Rawlins has issues with
both guys. They all have issues with each other, So
I think you could do that one this year and
I personally would be okay with it, but I want fewer.
It just feels like the easy way out to do
these triple threats as often as they do. And it's like,
I do think there's a difference show between what they're

(01:42:50):
doing with the two tag divisions because again, the women, yeah,
they had all those teams out there kind of establishing
who's involved, and then the men's at least on the
ross side of the World Tag Team titles. It's just
really brief setup that leads to a title match because
the champions are fighting champions, Like, okay, you could have

(01:43:11):
gotten something out of the war Raiders, had you. I
don't know, crazy thought built them up for a few
weeks and given them some wins, re established them, giving
them some mic time. Maybe people would want to see
them going for the titles and maybe even think they
might win instead of Oh, they're just here to put
over Styles and Dragon Lee and they just did something
similar with New Day the week before, so they're putting

(01:43:35):
these teams on, but it's just really been Styles and
Lee poling through them so far.

Speaker 2 (01:43:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:43:40):
Yeah, I don't know if they answered anything that was
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:43:43):
No, that's good, that's no, it's good.

Speaker 1 (01:43:46):
I want to ask a sort of tangentile question, which
is where is La Knight after last.

Speaker 4 (01:43:54):
Night heading to WCW. He'll be on Nitro on money.
I wrote about it a lot like if this were
the Attitude era, that's what I would be assuming.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
Right, Yeah, yeah, it was uh.

Speaker 4 (01:44:07):
I mean when you go from Friday, you know he
he loses there. I'm trying to like, what do they
do Friday with him. Refresh my memory if you remember.

Speaker 2 (01:44:15):
Oh well it's a tournament final going through that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:44:17):
Yeah, so he couldn't he submits, which makes sense now
because of going through wanting Johnson. You know he's going
to force john Sander to submit. But at that before that,
it was like, okay, that's an interesting call. Then you
turn around on Monday and he gets his ass handed
to him and this uneventful beat down that just like

(01:44:37):
why is this still going? Like we move, I'm good,
we're done here. It just it felt like they were
like writing this guy out. And I haven't heard anything
about an injury, so I don't think that's what it is.
I think it might be a product if we do
these uh vision beat down so often that we need
to raise the bar a little bit and try to

(01:44:58):
make this one count. But it didn't come off that way.
Uh you know, we need to do the stunt with
the car rather than just seven tsunamis in the ring. Okay.
So I'm guessing that if it's not him being written
out for some reason, and God only knows what, then
I think he'll just be back and we'll be feuding
with them. He's the one guy that wad. I didn't

(01:45:19):
have a problem with them not having somebody run out
to save him. He has no friends. He's kind of
a dick. He's a likable dick.

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
And and so my thing and I pitched this on
the Postal last night. It's like they're right, he just
wants the holidays off, so they're writing them off. It's
a way for the vision to be you know, like
do a brutal beat town to a fan favorite, and he,
unfortunately will be the reason that Brown Breaker. That would
be the out for Breaker not winning on the Netflix special.
That'll be all the Knight's trump in return.

Speaker 4 (01:45:48):
It could be. Yeah, I I just get this sense
with Night and maybe I've heard a thing or two.
It's they know he's over m hmmm. They know they
have to push him, and they may be gritting their
teeth while they do it. I don't know that he's
the most popular guy with certain high ranking people in

(01:46:11):
that comment mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:46:13):
Yeah, so do they do you think they are willing
to look past that?

Speaker 1 (01:46:19):
Is it? Or is it is what you're hearing? It's
big enough deal that that that this is this is
a message being sent to the guy. We've been giving
you every opportunity you're over. We took advantage of it,
We've utilized you. But now we're gonna we're gonna cause
like to me, getting that kind of beatown, Yes it
can be a burial and we're gonna just like you know,
we're gonna Marco stunt you like we're you know, Marcus like.

Speaker 2 (01:46:41):
Cotni doesn't even call me anymore. I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (01:46:42):
Like Ellen, I just like they ghost him. Well, but
that's a lot of attention to draw to elle Knight. Also,
he's over, and if you want to bury him, having
him tap out to Gunther and not featuring him in
a beatdown is a way to bury him. This felt
like an angle that sets up a triumphant elle Knight
out pop Forli Night coming back and going oh you
thought you got rid of me, No you didn't. And

(01:47:03):
he cuts a hell of a promo to me. This
is a This is pulling back the the the the
rubber on a slingshot and fanser is waiting for it
to be let go. Where Night just gets his revenge.
There's tension there to be released rather than he just faded.

Speaker 4 (01:47:20):
And I hope so because I do think they have
a lot there. One of the things people have pointed
to that I've talked to you is that, yeah, so
why do they put up in them there's other choices. Well,
you know, look at the marketing campaign that he had
with Slim Jam. You know they love him, and uh so, yeah,
that that helps him. I mean, I'd be surprised they
were just writing him out. But it just the way

(01:47:42):
he's been described to me, even by like people who
like him, is that he is a bit aloof. He
can be a bit blunt when you know, if it
comes he's that guy that if you ask him a question,
you know, like if for a creative idea or something
like that, he's gonna you know, he's gonna pull a
Bob Hawley on you and make me the world champion.

(01:48:04):
You know, he's that guy. And that's the rep anyway,
and so it's it. Maybe it's never gonna surprise me, like, Okay,
they're pushing him aggressively, and then hey, why did they
derail that push because it might be that, like something
happened behind the scenes where he rubbed somebody the wrong way.
I mean, it's just that's how it is. And again

(01:48:25):
this is coming from people who like him, and we'll
defend him and say you just have to get to
know him and kind of understand that's his personality, and
he does. He's not like a he's not an ass.
You just that you have to understand what you're dealing
with and once you do, you're gonna like him.

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:48:49):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of p W T Tucks NXT,
the longest running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me, along with
Nate Lindberg, Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests, live every Tuesday,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:49:09):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:49:18):
Yeah, I think that's I think that's a fair assessment
of the journey that people have to go on in
order to kind.

Speaker 2 (01:49:24):
Of land in a good place with him.

Speaker 1 (01:49:25):
And you'd hope Night, You'd hope Knight was enough knew
what was best for him to pull back on some
of that or or adjust. But some people just don't
have that social skill. Yeah, you know, I mean, Rob
van Dam didn't care, you know whatever, bear me, I
don't care. You know, triple age whatever you know, but
it's like, you know, going back to to the to
the email and your your pitch for like where there's

(01:49:47):
a triple threat called for and and with Seth rawlins.
I get it, you know that before his injury there
was it's like, okay, how do we supposed feel about Seth?
The problem is Seth was so convincingly unbearably insufferably obnoxious
in the lead up to the vision turning on him
and Haym inciding with with with Braun that I don't

(01:50:11):
I mean, unless people just don't remember. And maybe the
injury is like a happy accident in one respect in
that it won't be how the fans will forget about
how much how obnoxious and insufferable Seth was and how
they all wanted to see Bron spear him too. But
it Seth comes back like do you think they want
him to be cheered or no, Seth was insufferable and
Bron turn on because they want actually Seth to be

(01:50:32):
the heel. They want Breaker to be more of a tweener,
and they want Punk to be the clear cut baby face.
Like where where do you think Seth falls in that realm?
Because obviously there's unfinished business with Seth and the Vision
and depending on when he's ready to come back, and
where the Vision stands at that moment, and where they
are with Logan and where they are, and again the
Austin theory thing, if it's if it's Seth, get if

(01:50:55):
it's if it's orchestrated by Seth and not the Vision,
and they have a really clear idea of how that works.
It still plays into in Haman we trust, not because
Hayman's going to get theory over by being with him,
but Hama's going to get theory over by being against him.
But my problem still is it's that ambiguity leads to ambivalence.
If you play a card where it's not clear, it
shouldn't even say. It's not about dictating to fans how

(01:51:17):
to feel. It's about making the fans feel a certain
way consistently where they care enough to care if somebody
wins or loses.

Speaker 2 (01:51:22):
And I do worry.

Speaker 1 (01:51:24):
Yes, Punk is clear cut face, but with a Vision
and Bran and Logan, and then you have Seth who's
going to be out for revenge, but is he going
to be a baby face And if Austin theory is
interfering against punk, but Austin theory is a Seth underling,
and maybe they don't play that card. Maybe so's that's
the thing, like, I haven't spent a lot of time
like focusing on on one thing I think they're doing
and being against it because I think there's a few

(01:51:45):
key forks in the road that will dictate and then
it's time for analysis. But when you bring up okay,
this is a triple threat, that makes sense?

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):
What I guess?

Speaker 1 (01:51:52):
What do you I want to ask you, what do
you envision is the role of Seth And if you
want tangentially, where does the possiblity of Austin theory fit in.

Speaker 4 (01:52:00):
I don't know where Austin necessarily fits in in a
triple threat, but.

Speaker 2 (01:52:04):
I do think, well, the dynamic was Seth. That's kind
of my point. When he comes back.

Speaker 4 (01:52:08):
Yeah, so when Cheth comes back, I think ultimately he's
going to be a baby face. They're gonna try again.

Speaker 1 (01:52:15):
So they made him a little more likable before brun
spirit of them and everyone's like, yeah, shut that guy up.

Speaker 2 (01:52:19):
He's obnoxious.

Speaker 4 (01:52:20):
Yeah, I mean it's but they also had, you know,
their their hand was forced. They had to do something
because the injury. So it's not like they had a
lot of time to well, they had to.

Speaker 1 (01:52:30):
I'd argue the two hours beforehand. I mean, like, I
don't you know well, but still like it was, it
was he was so obnoxious in the two hours leading.

Speaker 4 (01:52:42):
Up to it. Another guy who was really obnoxious that
came back from an injury and was really over. Is
the guy booking this? You know they Lovecca was quite
the heel. So it's just he's gonna get that babyface
reaction and most likely when he returns, And so I
can see them kind of again not endorsing, but knowing

(01:53:06):
who's who's booking this some shade degree, where does Rollins
stand he's got issues with Punky and who does Maybe
at the end of this Rowlin's in Punk end up
shaking hands or they get the Punk turn at some point,
because I do think there's going to come a time
where it makes total sense for seeing punkd here to
have a heel run. I think they're in a good

(01:53:29):
place with him right now. I think he's still moving
a lot of merchs and everything else. But yeah, if
he cools down a little bit, yeah, I think we'll
see that sooner rather than later, probably.

Speaker 2 (01:53:39):
You know, I say I've been saying this year.

Speaker 1 (01:53:41):
I think John Cena falls in the He's not a
dumb guy, and he's very successful, but he falls kind
of in the bottom of in the bottom tier, not
like one percent, but like, you know, thirty percent in
terms of wrestling IQ for a main event guy, like
I just see him doing too many things that feel
like what is he thinking? Like what that doesn't make sense?
Or that shows he looks at the business in a
way that I think has an eye on John Cena

(01:54:03):
serving John Cena and as opposed to John Cena serving
John Cena while also not doing collateral damage that's needless.
And I see that happen enough with him, and I'm
not super impressed with his philosophy on wrestling. So he's
in the bottom third of the smart guys who have
been made invetters. There's way dumber people. I don't I
don't make it seem like he's in the bottom. There's
all wrestlers, So I make a point. Seth Rawlins to

(01:54:24):
me also comes across as disappointing in that regard as
a top guy. His wrestling IQ seems focused in similar
ways to John Cena where and I think with Seth
that's sort of an insecurity about not being Roman, not
being having the identity that that John Moxley Dean Ambrose
had where you just knew who he was instantly sets
this high spot guy, flashy guy, but with a really

(01:54:45):
annoying voice and laugh he had. He was more of
a heal personality wise, more of a babyface in the ring.
He came from the school of that that story at
all the time. With femin XT's like, I can get
my spots in and he's being told, no, you don't,
that's not part of the story. We're telling stopp oring
stopping a star star rating. This is awesome chant, and
let's let's keep an eye on what this business is about.
And then he turns to heel, but he still does
his grand entrance and the crowd cheers and sings, and

(01:55:07):
he's like, yeah, this is great, but now I'm going
to turn you against me. And so I have him
kind of in my bottom third also of just having
kind of that that wisdom or the philosophy that I
agree with that.

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
A top guy should have.

Speaker 1 (01:55:18):
And that makes me worry because I'll read what I
wrote about him in the lead up to the angle
where they division turned on him. After the opening segment,
I said, that segment went about fourteen minutes. It was,
as is often the case of Seth, a mixed bag.

Speaker 2 (01:55:31):
I wanted to watch it at one and a half
speed because he stretches out everything he says with a
slow cadence and pauses between phrases like I'm sorry for
doing that two people, But that's what fourteen minutes Seth
feels like. Is that twenty seconds there?

Speaker 1 (01:55:47):
And then I said, secondly, he needlessly breaks character like
this is some sort of out of storyline side of it,
playing it at the crowd wanting to kiss Hayman in
that moment, exertaining kiss him. His song and his catchphrase
continue to undo some of the heel heat he builds
with the stronger aspects of his promo. The strength and
more intriguing aspect of his promo is how much he
made it about himself and braved about himself as a
leader of the Vision. I don't recall him leaning into
it to that degree. I mean he is basically flaunting

(01:56:10):
in the faces of hay and Breaker and read that
he is superior to them and they're fortunate to have
him in their presence. I don't know what their endgame is.
I do know two hours later, but it's hard to imagine.
We're supposed to think that Hayman, Breaker and Read don't
have inner thoughts of resentment towards Seth and is self
centered bragging. And my final line here is what I'm
getting it. And I also hope everyone involved realizing how
Seth is coming across so in that opening segment, if

(01:56:31):
they knew they're doing that break up. Later in that
opening segment, they could have made Seth more sympathetic and
less full of himself in a way that I think
was off putting rather than endearing, rather than showing up
Hayman in the heels, it came across like Seth as
a guy who you would sort.

Speaker 2 (01:56:49):
Of not blame.

Speaker 1 (01:56:52):
You wouldn't blame bron Breaker for wanting to spear him
because he was so obnoxious during that segment. And I
even wrote that like later in the show, they had
a backstage segment and it came across me like, yeah,
I mean, I can't blame I wrote after a backstage segment,
I'm not sure how much to trust and Read in
a brown breaker's body language and facial expressions as an

(01:57:13):
actor at this point, but there are times he just
seemed to be barely tolerating Seth. Now that could have
been in real life too, but I think it was
meant to plant to seed for later. So I guess
this goes full sort like, I just am frustrated that
when Seth comes back, there's gonna be And I could
imagine even Paul Hayman as smart as Paul Hyman is,

(01:57:35):
and I don't gree with everything Paul Hyman is. I
think sometimes he does cinematic stuff without regards to immersive
re immersive foundation in reality, He's part of it enough
that I think that's kind of part of his philosophy
is make it look pretty and cinematic at the expense
of feeling real at all. And so the things I
disagree with him on and I did going back to
his booking a BCW, but that was a different era,
in a different type of mission statement with that brand.

(01:57:58):
But I do could imagine that set did irritate everybody
in that group in real life too, and they're good
and they're happy to get rid of them. But I
don't have faith Jason With all that said, that Seth's
going to come back in fans are gonna do anything
but sing to a song, and then there's going to
be this mixed feelings of ambivalence, and I'm not sure
that I want that cluttering up what they're doing with
Brown Breaker and see them punk in a triple threat

(01:58:20):
situation because Seth's character is so just a walking contradiction
one minute to the next.

Speaker 4 (01:58:27):
Yeah, I'm believing. I have that fear that he's going
to go back to being that character and everybody sing
along to my song and in the cackle, and I'm
hoping it's better. I do think there's a way. Because
he was so obnoxious for him to say I had
a lot of time to think about it, he was wrong,
And you can even go so far as to say, like,

(01:58:52):
if I were in those guys a position, I probably
would have done the same thing, because look how obnoxious
I was. But I think you can heat things up
with them again, there's another way to do it. But
I do think it just him. It would require him
to actually come up with like who he is and

(01:59:12):
not just another one where he doesn't really know who
the character is. He's just winging it and the fans
are reacting to that music, and hey, you've got a
lot of downtime to do that, and I hope he does.
I it's yeah, I don't know that it's going to work,
but I just the way he was written out, I mean,
I can't see him going back to like being with

(01:59:33):
the Vision and watch him do that just because Hayman
would think it's a challenge to Hey, won't bring him
back and he'll lack humble and then he'll eventually turn
on Breaker. I mean, there is a way to do
that too. But no, I do think that it's he's
probably going to revert to the old Seth. But maybe

(01:59:57):
by the time he gets back, it'll be time for
a Becky turn too, and you can tie that in somehow.
Not that they're going to be on air together the
other an alternative as you bring him back here when
you put him on the other brand. But I don't
think they're going to pass up that money that they
think is going to be there with him working with
Braun and and even just getting Braun getting that experience
of working with the guy like Seth in the Rent.

Speaker 1 (02:00:18):
But this goes to well, one I don't know if
that's good at raising Broun's eye too as a worker,
because I have my issues with Seth's you know, philosophy
on you know, any crowd direction is a good reaction.
And he doesn't seem to adhere to the notion that
you want to have kind of a constitution to your
character that people really cling to. And this gets back
to Nicholas's argument in the email, going full circle back
to what started the discussion is I don't think Nicholas

(02:00:40):
wants to think that hard, and I don't blame him,
because the harder you think sometimes the more confused it gets.
It's not you have to think hard, and then it
all falls into place. I think most of the storyline
of the Bloodline was the more you thought about it,
the more it made sense.

Speaker 2 (02:00:53):
They put that into it. It made sense.

Speaker 1 (02:00:55):
You can understand Jay's conflicting with Jesus's inner conflict and
angst and and Roman playing mind games with him.

Speaker 2 (02:01:01):
It all made sense the more you thought about it.
With set the more you think about it, it often
makes less sense and you don't end up with it.
You don't end up with like that clear reason to
either root for or against him. And so yeah, it's
it's it's frustrating, all right.

Speaker 1 (02:01:14):
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(02:04:10):
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(02:06:10):
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Speaker 10 (02:06:52):
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