NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell talk Lesnar's return, Cena's turn, so-called Ruse of Century, WWE Unreal, AEW in a lull, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Jason brock Lesner is back. They like pressing promoters these
dates like surprises. Paulovac talked afterwards after Summer Slam Night
too about you know, if we had a roof, it
would blown the roof off the place, and was it
which you do degree that's true, you know, but not
not exactly pertinent to the controversial nature of deciding to

(01:42):
bring him back. So yeah, I feel like when we
talk about Leslid, there's like these two lanes. One the
backlash the UH from fans, the our thoughts on the
decision to take the risk or just do it in general,
regardless of the risk, and then also the storyline ramifications
and what it tells us about the the decision to

(02:03):
turn see in a back babyface too. Which those two
do you want to start with storyline or real life?

Speaker 3 (02:09):
I say real life?

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah. So you know, our poll at pal torch dot
com is is leaning pretty strongly towards UH being against
bringing lesnar back. I think it's important to say he
is not a defendant in the Genello Grant lawsuit, but he,
to my to the best of my knowledge, correct me
if I'm wrong, has not pushed back on any of
the allegations. It's not his obligation to do so. Yes,

(02:32):
I'm improven to have done anything that he's been alleged
to have done, other than there are text messages with
Vince that certainly lay out a pretty you know, distinct
scenario of things that he was involved in. Was he
just a what'll be the word for just like being
kind of a male chauvinists thug, Like there's a there's
a a better term for that, because chauvenus is sort

(02:57):
of like an antiquated term. Even sure, I feel like
there's a there's a lot about me. Yes, I feel
like there's like a good word for his for the
behavior that he is accused of, and like wholigan and
ruffian doesn't quite cover it, you know. But it's like

(03:18):
it's like if you're you know, if you're family and friends,
you'd be like, eh, geez oh God, like you know,
that's that's gonna that's gonna follow him forever. But it
apparently w w E thinks it fends like the beast
and it's an ejection of star power, excitement. It's an
I was their moment for a viral moment. So yeah,

(03:42):
I mean I'm just kind of you know, blaying that
out there. Tell me your initial thought and then you know,
a couple of days later, looking at how dough to
be handled it on Monday and some uh, you know,
kind of what the public reaction is, how how you're
feeling about that decision. Actually, I'll read the poll results too,
just to since I brought up the poll it is.

(04:02):
I gave five too negative, too positive, a neutral in between,
and then also just processing it. Basically an opt out
for people who heard like I want to think about
it a little better, learn more. So, the option of
terrible offensive decision has thirty two percent of the VOUTE
number one vote getter disappointed. The other kind of thumbs
down gets twenty percent, So fifty two percent total a

(04:25):
majority giving it a thumbs down, and six percent just
opted out instead. I'm processing it still, so percentage wise
of those who have an opinion, it's even higher than
fifty two percent neutral fifteen percent soals neutral, like, yeah,
I get it, but you know I'm not four against it.
I'm not going to cheer it, but I'm not going
to be outraged. Five percent said he's been gone long enough,
and twenty three percent said great to see him back.

(04:45):
So essentially, to simplify it, twenty eight percent thumbs down
fifty two percent thumbs up, with six percent abstaining essentially
because I want to process it, and fifteen percent saying
I have an opinion and I'm neutral. So that's not
good for Dobby. If it's indicative, it's representative. It's not
a scientific poll. It's Pew Torch readers. But you know,

(05:08):
among POI torch readers, factually those who chose to vote
the poll voted that way. And I'm not surprised by it.
I'm actually, you know, kind of please that, Like people
look at this as not just overwhelmingly great to see
him back, it's exciting for me who cares about the
real life stuff. So yeah, throw to you for your thoughts.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
I'm going to add another option, even though it's too
late for your poll. Surprised, but not surprised, if that
makes sense. Surprised in the moment when he came out. Yeah,
then you think about it and it's like, well, yeah,
it was probably just a matter of time.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
This is you know what though, Jason, if I added that,
I think one hundred percent would choose that. No matter
what your opinion is on his return, everybody ago surprise,
not surprised.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, and I mean it's just it's
t Ko. I don't even know the fighter's name, but
there's a very controversial fighter who is like an under
he's not even a star, not that should matter, but
we all know it does and has legal issues and
couldn't fight because of an ankle monitor issue on the
last I don't even again, I don't know his name.
Todd could probably help with the story, and they don't care.

(06:12):
He's gonna fight. It's ugly and it's gross, but they're
gonna let him fight. And so I'm not surprised. It
just was like it catches you off guard at the moment.
And then there is the issue that okay, yeah, from
a legal standpoint, he's not a defendant, as you said,
and there's no offer.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
He was offered sexual encounters by McMahon, had an appointment
for what appeared maybe to be that, and then didn't
show up.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
I mean a couple of times, once because of a snowstorm,
and this is her testimony. We haven't heard of it
sc but once because of a snowstorm. I think, once
because he was too hammered or something too drunk, if
memory served been a while since I've gone through all this.
But but he did request a tape of her urinating
to put it nicely, and received that.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Accused of that, and has not. We have not had
a push There's been no statements saying there are factual
errors by Lessner's camp on this that I know of.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
That's the thing. Yeah, Yeah, And so I mean there's
it's like anything in twenty twenty five, you are going
to get people that will push back and say this
man did nothing wrong because you're not accused of anything legally,
he's not facing charges, and so therefore we should all
just accept it because we all do bad things in life.
They have that camp and they need to shut up
the hell up a little more than they do. But

(07:30):
they're going to keep going because they just want to
have permission to be shitty people. The but I do.
I mean, it's been two years since he's actually wrestled.
I don't remember exactly the timing of how long he's
actually missed because of this, because he does work a
sporadic schedule. So at some point, yeah, I mean I

(07:52):
just kind of assumed that he would be back if
there wasn't the only reason I've thought that there was
a chance he may not eventually be back. Is just
because if there were bad feelings between the two sides,
because if Lesnar felt like they didn't take his side
or whatever.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
Or or his wife says, or his wife says, you're
never going back there. I gotta watch you now.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
I mean, I'm not going to pretend to know the
dynamic of the relationship, but a little bit that i've
I've heard, I don't think that's much of an issue
with nothing, but I'll just I think, I mean, it
could have changed a lot over the air, So that's
so maybe it's not even fair. I just know at
one time, in the early days, there was one side
was more controlling than the other.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, but that can change when you got involved. And yeah,
I mean, I just nobody knows what goes on behind
closed doors in a relationship, and there's certain lines that
get crossed and then suddenly there's a balance shift.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
I thought I was in awer balance that it didn't
last long for sure.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
By the way, can I read the statement from Janelle
Grant's spooks person, For far too long abuse was allowed
to thrive under dob of these leadership. Instead of writing
this wrong, de Deaby has done nothing to ensure those
responsible are held accountable. This attempt to sweep misconduct under
the rug will backfire. We look forward to the full
set of facts, including those about mister Lesnar coming out
in a court of law where they belonged. That was

(09:11):
a statement issue to you say today, probably other media
entities too so. And in the lawsuit it alleges that
Vince McMahon and the wording was took part in extreme
cruelty and degradation. And of course a question with Leser
is what did he know? You know, I mean, he
might have read that lawsuit and went, oh, jeez, Vince,
that's awful. I didn't I thought this was some you

(09:32):
know girlfriend who had a kink, and I didn't know
you were, you know, engaging in what layperson reading the
lawsuit would think is extreme cruelty and degradation. So, you know,
in that sense, like he's not there's a reason he's
not a defendant in this, but there's also a reason
he was pulled from WTV and events. And the only

(09:55):
thing that's changed I think is time. I mean, maybe
some you know, leadershipship, sir, or culture larger issues in
the culture, but you know, I mean there's a reason
News off TV. And the question is what changed where
it was prudent and practical thesess to be prudent and
practical to take him off TV and of off of storylines,

(10:17):
and what's changed to bring him back other than enough
time went by and memories are short. I mean, do
you think there's any other reason? Have you? Have you
come up with anything that kind of would go yeah,
this is why back then he needed to be pulled
from TV and now he's not. Because if w B
filter was okay for him to be on TV now,
well why wasn't it fine two years ago?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right? And that is a big part of this is Okay,
we know her camp is putting out their statement and
that you just read and ok. But they could also
be close to a settlement and you still put that
say statement out even if you're close, if you're not there,
you're still gonna, you know, say that, and then that
just kind of keeps the pressure on. I don't know,
but that's one possibility. There's also the possibility feel because

(10:59):
they tried to turn this into arbitration, maybe they feel
confident that is going to happen and it's not going
to affect LESNAR then yeah, or I mean they're just
playing fast and loose. I mean it sounds like it
was a legal department thing where they didn't want them
to use lessner and you know the word is that
it's like, well, the legal department gave the blessing, but

(11:21):
did the legal department get pressure from other people that
are in higher positions in TKO like it just come on?
Enough of this and who knows?

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, yep, you can support us on Patreon and get
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(11:54):
patreon dot com slash PW Torch vip and you can
also upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits
through Patreon. So let's pause here and introduce the show.
This is the Way Keller Pro Wrestling Podcast, our flagship
edition for Tuesday, August fifth, twenty twenty five. I'm Wadekeller,
host of the show, and I'm joined by Jason Powell
from Pro Wrestling dot Net. Be sure to check out

(12:16):
Jason's website again pro Wrestling dot Net for his reports
and his team's reports and editorials and various features including
live TV and pay per view coverage. And you can
become a member of his site or just find out
more information on it at PW Membership dot net or
click the membership infolink at pro wrestling dot net. And
by the way, if you're interested in VIP membership to

(12:36):
PW Torch, check out PW torch dot com slash go VIP.
Later in the show, we're gonna have a VIP exclusive
and dot Net member exclusive segment on Hulk Hogan during
the house show era early wrestling any of years, but
the WWF was reliant upon house show revenue and Hulk
Hogan was the top attraction and he had just a
parade of challengers, and we talk about the pros and

(12:58):
cons of various challengers who were a favorite to who
weren't and why during that era. That's coming up in
the VP exclusive after show, but later in the main
part of the show here we're going to get into
summer slam matches, and also AW the post all in
lull of sorts and thoughts on MJF and hurt syndicate,
and also where's AW going to get their next round
of talent, their next influx of wrestlers. W has a

(13:20):
feeder system, a developmental system. Where will AW get the
next wrestlers? And then also thoughts on WWE on reel
what motivated them to do it? What was the purpose?
What is the effect? What do you think of what
Randy Orton is saying about needing to evolve? Is that
really a fair way to put his I think very
legitimate feelings about protecting the mystique of the business. So

(13:41):
we get into that. And also, y k fabe is
a word we just shouldn't use anymore because it means
different things to different people and therefore in a way
has kind of lost meaning or just created confusion. All
that and much more coming up, so let's get back
to our conversation. Storyline wise, this seems to explain.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
Oh, let's say there's one moral element to the yeah
of this. Yeah, complete cowardice, unsurprising gutlessness to cancel the
press conference, it's the same weekend. I'm sure they'll climbo
was just a coincidence, as some of their defenders are,
And I just shake my head, like, you will buy
anything and you're not, Like maybe you own a lot

(14:19):
of stock. If you don't, I have no idea what
you get off get from this, seriously, from just the
blind defense of people like stop, but yeah, they're not
obligated to do press conferences. And just for the record,
if anyone's like, oh, it's because you know you're a
media member and your access is cut off. I didn't
have the access anyway. I wasn't going to these things

(14:40):
back at one point when they were taking calls and
then I would have a little bit of access like
everybody else. But I don't travel to the shows unless
it did it to come close and so therefore it
doesn't change anything for me that they've cut off these
press conferences. And quite frankly, I thought they became a
joke for the most part. Anyway, you'd get a couple
of people asking real questions and a bunch of influencers
I couldn't wait for to get their picture taken so

(15:02):
they could move on with your day. But yeah, I
mean the and I do think hey, to be perfectly,
I think it makes for a better television product to
do what they're doing now. I don't know why they
wanted to do these real press conferences, and some people
have pointed too well because Tony Khan doesn't well, Paul
de Beck did the media calls even before Tony Khan
was around in wrestling academ XT, so I don't know

(15:24):
if it's that could be, but yeah, I was. I
was surprised. I remember we got the invite for the
first NXT call. I'm like, there's this isn't happening, and
then it did. I was like, really, okay, this is
actually going to go on. And I just kept waiting
for the other shooted Rob and it took a long time.
But yeah, it's so had they just made this decision independently,

(15:45):
it wasn't. The timing of it looks so awful. I've
been like, okay, I get it, you know, I do
it makes for a better television product to have lesser
out there in front or not Lester, but uh le
back out there in front of the people like he is,
and I understand, but to do it this weekend, I mean,
just on principle and wouldn't have done it this weekend

(16:07):
because of the political well just because of power. It
looks not that they care though, that's the thing. I mean,
they just don't clearly they don't care. And you know,
your poll is I think a good sampling of fans
who pay a lot of attention to the business and unfortunately,
I think there's a lot of casual fans that don't
care about that aspect of it, don't want to know.

(16:27):
Not saying they're all that way, but I mean, we
were there at Tarret Center when Vince McMahon came out
after the alligator after everything went to public, and granted
it was that day, but still so there was always
a out the well. Some people might not have seen
all the news, but it was a standing ovation, and
it's like, well, one show and then the next week
standing ovation after everyone clearly had a chance to hear

(16:47):
the news. So there is an audience that just doesn't
give a damn. They just want to be entertained and
they don't care about anything in real life as long
as they're being entertained.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Yeah, and I think there's a numbness because of political
leadership and what they've been you know, proven to have done,
admitted to have done, or credibly accused of doing uh
in an overwhelming way with tons of evidence, and it
you know, that doesn't seem to be a breakpoint for people.
So you know, why can't brought Lessner a sports entertainer

(17:16):
participate in a sport to entertain me? When you know
our our leadership is what it is. And and I unfortunately,
I do think the bar has been uh, you know,
changed for for what is crossing a line and and
what leads to someone you know, having to be kind
of retreat from public life. And that's just unfortunately, you know,
part of what's going on. I levec speaking of him

(17:40):
through John cen under the bus a little bit, although
I don't think Johnson cares either and said, you know,
well Sina had you know, if you look at the
exact wording it, it's leaned strongly towards Sena wanted to
work with Lesner. But you could parse the words and
go what he's saying as Sina wanted to have the
best kinigh kind of retirement. And so you know, he said,

(18:02):
it's him writing the last chapter of his book, and
we'd have to screw it. Up pretty badly to ruin this,
and well maybe that's started to happen and this is
part of the shift, is this, But he says, you know,
you know, you have a finite number of dates with
John Cena. You have a finite number of big matches
and big moments and incredible things you want to do,

(18:23):
and you want to get to the majority of them.
But you can't get to every one of them. But
like I said, I I know the headlines is you know,
a hunter says Sina wanted Lesner. Obviously, scene is okay
with it. I'm not convinced based on the quotes that
I've seen because I didn't see the live complete interview.
So tell me, you know, please fill in the gap.

(18:45):
Was there anything where Leveck just plainly obviously said John
Cenas said he wanted to work with Lesnar that was
on his wish list, and we made it happen for
him to that degree.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
I'll be honest, I'm half watching when that thing is
on now because it did just one big you know, Yeah,
everything is awesome, And so I can't sit here and
tell you like word for word, but I can tell
you that apparently John Cena didn't get the memo. Have
you had a chance to see his comments? No, so
it wasn't any you know, I mean, I don't even
know the timing of it, but he was something called

(19:17):
Adam Adam's Apple. I'm just not familiar with it, and
I haven't had a chance to watch. And I'm using
a transcript credit to Wrestling Observer for this, but it
was I've been saying the same thing for twenty five years,
just in regards to Lesner coming back. They deal him,
I play him, and then he just kind of goes
on to say, basically reiterate that. So back to saying, Oh,
I really wanted to work with this.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Guy, that's the thing, and that's why I'd let I mean,
that's a really illuminating quote actually, because that makes it
it does make it seem like Levek kind of threw
scene under the bus with you know, wording.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
Throwing Levec under the bus. I mean, lord, no, I
saw it. And Lesner are both like tight with with
Vince McMahon and so are they friendly and more friendly
than we realize. And Seina just doesn't want to catch
the shit for it.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, I mean, it's the palace intrigue is interesting. I know,
as asked on Uh, I think it was the ra
Poll show. Yeah, if the idea that like Vince was
in the Hogan video and now Lessner's back, and is
this paving the way for a Vince return? And I'm like,
who went a position of power wants Vince back? Right?

(20:20):
I mean nobody, nobody in the executive power, including Stephanie,
wants Vince back. As of my last word. There can
be reconciliations and changes, but consistently for a while. This
is the anti Vince camp that's in control. And I
just cannot think. I don't see anyone our Emmanuel Nikkahn,
anybody at levec Stephanie, anyone in a position of power

(20:40):
or close to people in power who want Vince back.
So I don't see that.

Speaker 3 (20:45):
The only way I see him back is if they
feel like there's some need for him, not on television
or anything, but like we know, he has a great
relationship with the Salis, and if that deal were coming up,
and I mean he negotiated the UFC side of the deal,
so if they felt like they needed him for something,
I could see them kind of putting their differences aside.

(21:06):
To do that, but to bring Vince back in a
power position, Oh my god, they'd be insane, especially if
you're you know, dedicating all this time to making Poulovec
the Dana White of WWE.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Right, Yeah, so I don't I don't see Lesser coming
back as anything more than w B executives going this
could be a spark to business. And frankly, you know,
Netflix viewership, the more we see you know, these numbers,
the more it seems like this is a disappointment, you know,
and and I mean I wouldn't say shockingly so because
we know generally speaking, they get a lot more excited

(21:38):
about what what numbers they're going to draw then what
turns out to be. I mean, w W Network and
smack Down on Fox were two examples through uh, you know,
seven days Wrestle.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
I know you're part of this too, but I got
the Wrestle nomic state in front of me and then
two point seven million global use through seven days for
the last Monday's episode, And that's pretty consistent. You know,
they're in that two point five two point to three
million range. Yeah, I mean back at Russemania, they popped
out at three point six million and so these aren't

(22:13):
these are not impressive numbers. I mean, you know what
stood out to me, Jason is on dowit to be unreal.
On the first episode, everybody was just like geeking out
over all or on Netflix, Oh my god, there's three
hundred million people worldwide, and and uh, you know this
is you know, punk, this is like my WrestleMania main event.
Might even I might be I'm you know, embellishing it,
but barely. You know, this is like my Wreussemania main event,

(22:33):
but it might be bigger. Like that's the tone everybody
had about this Netflix. I'm like, you're just on a
streaming service doing the same thing you were doing before,
but now you have a drone flying in the arena
and you're reaching. Yeah, you're reaching a different group of people,
but it's not The universe of Netflix is not bigger
than the universe for you say network by any big measure.
It's just they're both you know, under one hundred million

(22:55):
in the United States, and you always had international TV
deals here and there, and now you have a viewership
that's worldwide, barely bigger than SmackDown on Fox was just
a few years ago. Just in the United States. This
is not a game changer. So if you look at
that and you look at USA network numbers for SmackDown,
you're kind of thinking maybe they just said we need

(23:18):
a spark, and the scene of heel Turn was, you know,
a letdown. I wasn't as down at it as others,
but I wasn't like I didn't think it was great
by any means.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
Like it was, oh my god, what's that.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Oh yeah, well, they're they're gonna say they think seem
punk and uther was one of the all time great
world title matches instead of a bit of a one
sided slog for twenty minutes with a guy who blew
up two minutes into the match in punk. So I mean,
just the idea of calling it when the all time
great matches when it just wasn't, is that's the part.
I mean, that's that that's what they're doing now. They

(23:54):
just exaggerate left and right. They don't care about credibility.
So so all that said, I mean, I think this
lesser thing you don't have to look very far. I
don't think it's a conspiracy of a sign of trying
to soften the vinsic man stuff. I don't think it
means that there's a settlement in the Lesnar revelations won't
come out in court anymore. I think they just wanted
a spark and as Levec said, we want to make

(24:15):
John Seena's retirement two were great. And they're like, is
a Logan Palm match going to be bigger? Big enough?
Or who else do we have? We've done, you know
some of the key ones already, Like what about Lesner?
So you know in the idea that they present a
scene and Sina said yes, and he's yeah, I just
I just not depends on that they put in front
of me, you know, means its scene as not taking

(24:38):
ownership of this is something I really wanted. And Levecs
seemed to be going, we just want to make scene
his retirement great. So if you are against us doing it,
you're anti scene as retirement to her being great. That's
what I read in those quotes.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, and uh, I don't know if you've seen the
numbers for the first week of Real on Netflix talk
about him two point three million global views. So Raw
did two point seven Raw did have one extra day.
I don't know how many delayed views Raw gits compared
to something like Unreal And I did notice, like last

(25:11):
night at the end of Raw when I was logging
out of Netflix that Unreal was down to the number
ten spot on the most watched list. So I don't
know if it's going to be there on this list
next week. It may just be, you know, top ten,
one week and done. So yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
One note chase on that. Sorry sorry. One note on
that is they drop the whole season, so you're gonna
have the surge at the beginning and then a bunch
of people who who binge it are gonna drop off.
It's not like something that they're going to have a
big there's no reason to believe that have consistent numbers
beyond the first week that are that are knocking, that
are putting them in the top ten.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
Thow right, right. So yeah, it may just be a
one and done kind of a thing for them. I
mean there's more coming next year as far as like episodes,
but as far as like this crack in the top ten, yeah,
I mean, it's just the WWE audience it's watching it.
They I think they're really trying to come up with
ways to bring in new people, and I think that's
kind of been the disappointment of Netflix because I did

(26:06):
think it would be bigger worldwide, you know, just even
though they had those international TV deals, like, well, gosh,
it's there for everybody now in one place, everybody can
go there. Maybe we overestimated the appeal of Netflix internets.
I did internationally, I don't know, because it was like,
well geez, I mean it's everybody has Netflix. Well maybe
they don't internationally, you know it, but yeah, but yeah.

(26:31):
I mean so, I think the tel on WWE's relationship
with Netflix isn't going to be that fluffy thing that
Netflix has put out too. I think variety recently. It's
going to be how they handle the negotiations for the
plis when though, because the pl deal is up when
I think next February or March, and so those negotiations

(26:51):
have got to be taking place now to see do
they stay with Peacock, do they go elsewhere? And I
think we all kind of looked at what Netflix has
done and thought, Okay, they want everything. They just didn't
at the time they couldn't get the US rights to
the PL's because Peacock had more time on the deal. Well,
I mean, there's always a chance at Peacock overbids again

(27:11):
and keeps it. But if they don't, you know, and
what is Netflix's interest? I hey, they may be very interested.
They may be happier than you know, as happy as
they say they are in the fluffy thing they put out.
It'll tell if they strike a huge deal in ww
or TKO being publicly traded, we'll get one of the
numbers to will know what they paid for this, And

(27:32):
I think that's going to be very talent.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
Well, they you know, pass three hundred million subscribers and
they're one hundred ninety countries. So if you're w B
and you go, well, when we're on Fox and in
one hundred million homes in the United States, give a take,
we were doing two and a half million viewers. So
if we aren't three hundred million homes worldwide, and our

(27:57):
product is so popular in so many places, we won't
triple that number, but we should double it. You know,
We'll we have five million, because they're gonna reach this
whole segment of the audience that doesn't have cable anymore,
who have been kind of slowly atrophied from our from
our core viewership, but they're still fans. They just didn't
have access to watch the show. So we're gonna get
them back, and then we're gonna have the overlap people

(28:19):
who have both Netflix and USA networklick you and I
do Jason, and then we're also gonna have all these
international people on top of that. And instead, Nope, they're
just drawn basically what SmackDown did during It's it's a
you know, pretty lengthy peak run on Fox. So yeah,
if you're if you're doing to be you're like, yeah,
we need a spark, and let's and then they assess
the pros and cons of bringing Lesner back, and they

(28:40):
probably assess correctly more positive than negative, but that has
yet to be seen, and they think that's a spark
that we need. And the John Cena Hill run is
not working. It's not leading to any kind of you
know metric uh where you're like, whoa, this has really
brought a bunch of people back to see what they
so badly wanted, you know, a dozen years ago, So
we got to change that, so, you know, they and
then they said, you know it was some well you know,

(29:01):
you have to you know, filter anything w he says
through or through it may or may not be true.
But their public statement is two three weeks ago, we
called Brock and said, you know, how do you feel
about coming back? So he had to if he wasn't
in shape, had again shape quick wrestling shape. And then
they make Now the last two weeks of the John
Cena storyline makes more sense, you know, because last Friday
were like, what's going on here? You know, is rocking

(29:23):
to show up and Cody's going to turn heel? Or
is rocking to show up? And seeing this was a
sort of scene, is going to go back heel after
seemingly turning babyface, all kinds of speculation, and then the
week before seems like, I can't do this, I don't
want to do it, I'm burned out. So they just
kind of told a story of this guy's losing it,
he's exhausted, his heart's not in it, and then he
thinks about it for a week and turns all in

(29:44):
prep for that SummerSlam closing moment.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host him the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom podcast.
Each week, he'll do the latest news and analysis for
me and my team at pro Wrestling dot Net, along
with other pro wrestling media members, plus the Pro Wrestling
Boom podcast features long form interviews with notable names in
the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and iTunes, Stitcher, Downcast, and

(30:11):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
PW boom dot com.

Speaker 5 (30:16):
Once again, that's PW boom dot com. Yeah, and they
did still I think leave the door open to tie
Lesnar to Rock with Teena having that line about somebody
convincing him it would make for good TV or whatever
the line was.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah, but I mean that might be why it was there.
It's just okay, so down the road if Rock, if
it comes back, we can still do something with where
he's been orchestrating all of this. And because at the
timing it's certainly interesting, he makes that comment and all
of a sudden, here's Lesner beating him up.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
I don't think there's any doubt that that was meant
to be Rock set it'll make for good TV. I
just think it's stupid because it makes no storyline sense
that John Cena would care about good TV. John Cena's
heeled character should care about or Babyface or heel characters.
She'd worry about winning a title and this idea that
wrestlers are suddenly business partners who care about ratings is nonsense,
Like there's is there is any quarterback in the NFL

(31:14):
sitting here going you know what. I know I should
be focused on winning, but I kind of want to
know what can I do to help ratings? I mean,
come on, it's just so it's so telling of this,
this just broken attitude towards what pro wrestling is and
how to tell stories on the air, and everyone's so
so desperate to kind of do what we do Jason,

(31:34):
Except in the wrestling business, it's like, oh, we want
to we want a podcast, and we want to tell
the inside story and we want to do Q and A.
It's like, just tell stories on tell great stories that
people get into in the arena instead of sitting around
cheering moves and then waiting for a code. The viral
moment of the week that Wody gets to break about
this semi meaningless bump in how many people scroll past

(31:56):
a little video clip on their phone. I mean, it's
just it's not but it should not be dictating you're booking,
and it is way more of a factor than it
should be. This sugar rush you know, dopamine boost of
social media instant gratification is non. I mean, like Seth Rollins,
like you know, I think it was astutely pointed out

(32:19):
last night that like, was it that Kelly Wells or yeah,
I think Kelly is the one who brought it up
that like the reason Seth didn't go to the ring
on crutches and Lowell seen into fall sensecurity before attacking him,
as they wanted to have the visual beauty of him
turning his back and then dropping the crutches and then
striking a pose with the big screen behind him. They
wanted the artistry of it instead of something that made

(32:41):
more sense, which is s that's actually limping to the
ring and then surprising Punk up close, but instead he
gave Punk all this time to prepare for the fact
that he didn't have a knee injury.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
They obviously don't care about logic as much as they
act like they do, because I mean, I laid it
out pretty on the show last time, the way it
could have been done to tie up the loose ense
to explain away most of the issues. They don't even try. No,
it's just I mean, the easy thing to say was okay,
Seth there was a legitimate injury scare. Once he realized that, hey,

(33:15):
it's not that bad, he kept it very quiet and
he waited and thought, just in case there's an opportunity
or I can use this to my advantage, I'm not
going to say anything. And it turned out that he
didn't need to do it because Gunther and Punk beat
the hell out of each other, and so he decided, now,
is that.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Mostly going through beating up Punk?

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's true for the record, but I mean MTAR,
it's not that hard. If I'm able to put that together,
an entire writing team should have no problem coming up,
but they can't be bothered to right now. It's really
strange that Lev was better with the lot. I think
that in the past than he is now. And I
don't know what's changed.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
The culture in the creative room you know of WWE
is so messed up right now. I mean it is there.
They're celebrating things that aren't inherently bad, but they are
not anywhere close to the best approach to take the

(34:11):
best metrics. So this is awesome chance fight forever people
you know on YouTube go going bonkers so that maybe
they'll make the highlight video clip and some over the
top cartoonish gag inducing way. There's just sick of fence
left and right validating what doa he's doing and making
them feel like I mean, it's still imagine when Dixie
Carter tht TNA was successful because all the people in

(34:32):
the first two rows told her how great her company was.
When she would circle the ring before shows. It's like, yeah,
of course they're gonna say that they're meeting you. You're
on TV and they're on the front row of your
freaking shows. But is there anyone in row fifteen? How
is it tenans compared to a year ago? What are
ratings like? Do you have an understanding of the wrestl
industry to understand how bad your booking is? And so

(34:52):
with to to be you know what? So much is
driven by we want a viral moment and even that,
you know, I don't know, I don't know if you
see the ads, but like the ad for Raw on
Netflix leading into Netflix leading into Raw Monday nights, the
in house ad is moments. It's talk about moments, viral moments,
shocking moments. Ww's home marketing now is watch us not

(35:12):
to get immersed in a world like you are when
you watch The Sopranos or Breaking Bad or The Pit
where like you just get pulled into this universe and
you empathize with the characters and they all have these goals,
and you know it's you know, deep down, you know, hey,
this is scripted. It's not real people, it's not a documentary.
But I am living and breathing on the emotions of
my favorite characters. No tune in to see something shocking

(35:37):
and surprising and something that artfully looks great on a
ten or twenty second viral clip, and so much what
Debdie's doing now was focused on that. And I just
think there's a group thing mentality that there's nobody there
speaking up anymore who thinks that that is not anywhere
close to the best approached to take. I think culturally
that is that's the inertia that they have right now,
and so much of what they do is built around that.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
Levac or somebody needs to speak up and say, look,
we can have all those moments, but we can also
have logic the times moments together, and that is what's missing.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
And it's not an obsession with logic, because we just
need things to be logical it is, you know, make
our case here. Logic makes for an immersive experience, a
more believable experience. Cleaning up all those little things makes
it feel more real. And if you like, for instance,
another bad aspect to go of you that's also going
on at the same time is match main event. Matches

(36:29):
don't need outcomes. All that matters is is the crowd
excited for the post match happenings. Are they outraged or
are they popping? So it's like, oh, Roman came back,
so it doesn't matter that there wasn't a finish to
the main event. But the problem is, and you could
justify him individually, you know, oh this this is fine.
We got a crowd pop and it's not that big

(36:50):
of a deal. Nobody thought Ella Knight was going to
beat Seth anyway, and now we protected l A Knight.
But that's well exactly, that's the thing, Like they're they're
thinking that, but the price they pay is when next
time Joe Tessatour and Michael Cole announce main event, fans
are like, Okay, it doesn't matter what the outcheme is
because there probably won't be one. So am I excited

(37:12):
about the wrestling. I am I excited to see these
two people do moves And the answer is yes, but
it's not the same as am I excited to see
Cody Rhodes finish his story? Am I excited to see
Sammy Zayin beat Roman reigns in Montreal. I'm excited to
see Jay us So score the upset of the century
and have a you know, win the run, take the rumble,

(37:34):
win and win the world title. That's that's what bowie
WWB to new levels. And instead they're just like, well,
they're they're they're degrading the value of matches by making
outcomes not seem like it's not an outrage that that
Maagine didn't have a finish. There's no narrative with the announcers,
which is we're fighting here for ten, fifteen, twenty minutes

(37:55):
for a reason, and now that it was all for
not And imagine sitting watching a NASCAR race and you
get eighty percent of the way into it and then whatever,
somebody throws a bunch of open oil cans on the
the uh pavement on the track, and then the race
is stopped and they go, oh, that person is going
to be fine, And then there's a fight in the stands,
but then they just call off the race. You just
invested hours watching the race and you've got it in

(38:17):
your head. Oh, I don't know anything, might askar but like, oh, I.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
Mean they do. The little bit I know is they
would just like it would I think, Okay, that scenario
is a little extreme, but they have like finished races
under caut and I think it gets called where there's
been a pile up or something and it's an uneventful finished.
But still I mean, I again.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
But imagine booking that every race or the majority of races,
because you think people are more interested in a brawl
between teams of drivers and people who change the tires
in the stands. But the point is not is it
exciting to see what happens. The point is you are
degrading the previous two to three hours, hover along those
last of everything that happened before then that you got

(38:54):
invested in. So eventually you tune out keeping track of
who might win this race because your conditioned to believe
they're going to book a lame finish, so instead you
just look for exciting moments in the race. Oh that
was almost a crash. Oh, that guy'spentheat of that guy,
but you're not actually thinking there's an alco. That's a
whole different way to watch something. And that's like going
to a movie and not caring about the plot or

(39:15):
the fate of the characters and just going will the
special effects be cool? And that gets you so certain distance,
but only so far. And that that's what we're seeing
so much of these days.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
Yeah, and boy, but if I got that right on
some off chance, if somebody's listening that knows I got
that right, and I know my dad let him know,
he would be beating with pride that I actually got
something right about NASCAR.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
But if they if they did that the majority of
the time, people would be outraged in Nascar.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Yes, and I mean, it's certainly better to do what
they did last night if you're gonna give people a
crap finish to at least Okay, we're backing it up
with Roman Rams.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Eventually, Yes, but but you have to rule some of
the it makes sense every week to do it.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
Oh no, No, I wasn't. Yeah, I'm endorsing it because
I was gonna say they do this all the time
when they don't have It's just that's the finish. Huh,
that's the end it is. I guess maybe it'll be
the word of the day. Gout was booking.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, and so we have the ruse of the century,
the big ruse by by Seth. But what was the rug?
That's right? They didn't say what what he accomplished? They
I mean? And that's what's so revealing right now about
the mindset of of Levec and his creative team. They
aren't it doesn't I don't think it crosses their minds now.
They are so deep into viral moments and shocking people

(40:37):
that they've lost their way of even processing from the beginning,
well what why would this be something Seth and Hayman
would do, like what what advantage has gained? And they
can go, well, we were going to do it, but
then John Pollock reported that it was an angle and
that ruined everything, so we had to just go abandoned.

Speaker 3 (40:56):
Chip.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
No, there's all kinds of augmentations that would have made
this make sense, including yours, by the way, and including mine,
which is just actually have Seth limb to the ring
and act all Solomon and and go I I just
want to say I've got till next July. You you know,
and then and then you know, go Punk into looking
at the fans. And as soon as Punk like turns
his head to look at the fans for some reason,
that's when Seth drops it crutches and attacks him. Well,

(41:17):
Punk let his guard down because he thought Seth was
on crutches. They didn't like It's that is not a
genius scenario. It's the obvious thing to do. If you
have a ruse, it should have a payoff that benefits
the person pulling the ruse. And there isn't one Jason
that I like it. It just blows my mind that
people are like, well, but it's surprised to fans. That's
the payoff.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
It's in a difference. It's a difference between a bad
movie and a good movie. You know, when you okay,
there can be a cool villain, but if that villain
has some big plot, you know, it's some big story, it's
some plan that's playing out. You want it to make sense.
It's going to be a lot more effective with the
audience than if that that plan is just like what
what just happened? That doesn't make any sense. There's going

(41:58):
to be some people that it doesn't matter the villain,
it's cool, but the matches that they could go that
made no sense.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
Yeah, and it's not sustainable. Yeah, I mean at some
point people are gonna be like, Okay, yeah that was
Then let's pretend it was surprising. Let's say we reported
as a real injury. Let's say they didn't even bother
by the way to show him in a hospital like
with surgery, like they could use.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Not they were there, they were in Birmingham, Alabama.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, and they could use stock footage of a knee injury,
but then showed a wide shot of Seth in a
hospital bed, just you know, they didn't even bother, Like
if it's a ruse of the century, Seth and Hayman
should have gone to the trouble to create a scenario
that made some mainstream casual fans go, well, I saw
reports this is fake, but I saw the surgery, Like
they didn't even bother to do that. They just gave

(42:40):
up on it, or and we'll never know. Maybe they
just didn't think they had to bother to begin with.
But I mean, I don't, by.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
The way, if they think it's only because John Pollock's report,
I mean, people who sat that night many of us
were skeptical. Jean's report certainly helped out like, Okay, there's
something to it that it's not just my imagination. But
it wasn't like this was oh that damn that John Pollock.
No one would have figured it out otherwise. No, it
wasn't like that at all.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
And my reason for initially not being skeptical is, why
would Seth fake knee injury and then lose a match
on NBC television to La Night take his finisher, which
we're supposed to believe hurts a lot. Why would he
voluntarily take that to what ends? And it didn't come.
It didn't strike me that there would be any advantage,
to any obvious advantage to pretending to have a serious

(43:27):
knee injury and voluntarily lose a match on national television.
You know when I talk about the finishes of these
TV made events, and they're degrading the value of a
match outcome by so often not having match outcomes and
then not acting like it's a big deal. But they don't.
All the free tenth, teen twenty minutes, doesn't We don't
even care that didn't add, that didn't matter, Like the Nascaris,
It doesn't matter. The last two three hours didn't count.
Look at how exciting what's happening right now is the

(43:51):
idea they're degrading, the idea that Seth would want a
loss on his record, like sessouldn't want to lose La
night that counted.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
And so what he's maybe I'm taking it a chep far,
but yeah, so he's throwing matches now? Wouldn't management have
an issue with that?

Speaker 1 (44:05):
I mean, well, I mean Adam Pierce at least did
say he did. I mean in a way.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
I'm not so ignorant that that's the like he threw
the match. Really, I mean my first thought that that's
why I was like, you can do this because he
doesn't have to throw the match. It can be he
did have this injury scare, but it turned out okay,
and you easily could have framed it that way. I
don't know why they didn't. It doesn't make set some
master manipulator that he faked this injury and took a

(44:31):
loss that he didn't need to. That doesn't add anything
to the story. It's just lazy.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
And I mean, you can imagine there's some other bookers
in the past who didn't have the goodwill of Paula
vac who if they did this in front of a
smaller crowd with lower production values, we'd even harsher on it.
I shouldn't say you and me, like collectively, there'd be
people outraged over this at a larger degree. But I
think because it's in front of this big stadium crowd

(44:58):
and it's Paula back who's got some goodwill built up
with fans, and there's such a brand loyalty now, you know,
polarized fan base, I think there's more people willing to
forgive this just because while the product is successful and
they're making a ton of money.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Yeah, And I do also think there are just I'm
not even trying to be insulting. I'm gonna say low
IQ that you know they're IQ, but they will accept
low IQ booking. Yeah, they just kind of well, I
got my moment there. I think there are people like that,
But I don't playing to those fans because you're going
to please.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Them exactly, and you have a fan base now in
frankly wrestlers and writers who have no idea that there's
anything other than what are viral moment numbers. Like, I mean,
there's people who should know better in Doba b who
are like, oh, you won't believe the numbers we did
on viral. It's like so like, I mean, I don't.

(45:53):
The quality of my day is not judge based on
how many hearts and likes I get on some social
media posts. That's stupid, like out your life on other things,
and you should judge your your job performance on other things.
Like wrestlers go for the thing that's tangible that they
can look at that when they had hits a pillow
or when they look at their phone in the morning
makes them happy, and it's it's it's feedback that actually

(46:15):
is not helpful and really all that meaningful. Again, it's
not negative to have something have seventy million views instead
of twenty million views. It's a positive. It's just so
insignificant compared to things that matter more but are harder
to measure. And that's the problem is people are going
for that sugar rush, that dopamine boost as opposed to
just knowing, here's my job and I need to do it,
you know, Like I mean, you kind of almost have

(46:37):
to be an accountant or a librarian in this business
in certain ways, which is there's things I need to
do and if I do them, this whole thing works.
But you don't get fireworks, you don't get cookies, you
don't get applause. You just do it because it's the
right thing to do. And in wrestling, there's just things
you do that don't give you that instant metric feedback
that are important to make this all work in an
efficient way that maximizes fan investment. And I think testing

(47:02):
the limits of this now of how far they can
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(47:25):
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Speaker 3 (47:41):
Yeah, I mean wait, how did wrestlers get by when
there's no such thing as social media? I mean, it's
it's insane that the business was actually able to thrive
before there was such a thing as social media. My
wish is that whether it's Tony knpoul of it, anybody
that's booking a major company, we just go in there
and say, guys, we need to operate like it is

(48:04):
the old days. I want this product to be something
where we work our asses off to fill every hole.
We want this to be an immersive experience for people
who want that. In addition to having these big moments,
let's tighten everything up and make sure that everything makes sense.
They're going to be occasional holes that we miss. Okay,

(48:25):
it happens, but were smart sacrifices. Yeah, sure, but let's
do our damnedest. And I thought LEAVEK was doing at
least a better job of that and NXT and even
when he came up and started doing the main roster stuff.
But that does seem to be slipping right now.

Speaker 1 (48:40):
Yeah. Well, so let let's let's move away from Rusa
the centry for a second, and uh, let's let's let's
talk about the state of John Cena turning it as
a baby face just kind of wind back to that is.
I thought the match was great. I mean, Cody and Sane,

(49:00):
it was way about expolu. I had low, low expectations,
but regardless of my expectations, that was kind of a classic.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
You know.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
It's what people I think ideally wanted when they thought
Seen is coming back and there'll be a Cody match,
And I thought the face face matchup could work, and
I you know, made that argument going into WrestleMania that
there's a way to make that work now, granted a
very short compressed amount of time for it to be there,
and people went in with doubt over who was you know,
if someone's going to turn but having seen a just

(49:30):
fight his heart out and then have a passing of
the torch moment or one that can be framed that way.
I mean, Cody's forty years old. He is already that
face at the company. This is you know, it's a
little late to pass the torch to someone who's already
you know, probably going how many years left do I have?
I mean, it's kind of sicky.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
It not it's this weekend, I'm telling you. I mean,
it was the fourth and biggest moment that we had best.
What was Cody just like him winning the championship that well, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
But I don't blame them for framing it as a
passing of the torch moment, because I mean it, you know,
you know, I mean, it's it's their job to do that.
I just think it's silly, you know, when you think
about it, It's silly to have a guy who's headlined,
you know, multiple WrestleManias, is the lead baby face and
he happens to be the guy who says, I can't
you know, I can barely get out of bed in
the morning anymore. I mean he's like, you know, just

(50:15):
O woe is me? Says John Cena about his physical state.
But storyline wise, they told a great story and fine,
you know, lean into it, say it's a pass.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
It was a hot mash, like what, but it was
a hook that was the thing. I was, all right,
just are we supposed to take this seriously? It's one
time where I think seen is okay, acting ability and
not being like better at it actually paid off because
you were okay, is he serious or is he totally?
I don't know, But now I need to see the
match to find out.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
But I think historically this is the match that I wanted.
I didn't need John Cena turning heel. I can deal
with Cody and Sena, two faces, two different generations, fight
their hearts out.

Speaker 6 (50:58):
No.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
Granted, there was some popping up from moves you know,
they'll you know the data term, the Timmy Dreamer come
back where there's just you shed, you know, because pro
wrestling is built upon it's not how you know actual
fights work, as Tom Martin points out, but pro wrestling
is historically forever built built around a video game thing
of your energy gets lower when you get hit and
you and it takes a while to kind of recover
and fire up again. In the crowd can fuel the

(51:19):
adrenaline and so that is baked into the progressing formula
that would be an A w and Noujapan and TNA, etcetera,
all based on. So when you have a wrestler take
finishers and then just pop up and act like nothing happened,
it does take me out of the match, and that
keeps us from being like a classic match that I
can point to and go like it was just start

(51:41):
to finish, so well executed, but that's also now what
you know, popping up after taking a bunch of finishers
or a finisher and delivering your own is sort of
part of making a match exciting. In the modern era,
I would augment it. I think it's count of productive
and just sort of stupid. But but I get that.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
A lot less of it if nothing else, I mean
exactly one in my ongoing ish the aw is it's
just we get that in too many matches, Like if
it's really said, like if it's WrestleMania, like it used
to be, Okay, Taker and Sean would kind of do
that style and it was like, well, it's WrestleMania as
long you know, you wouldn't want to do this every
show or anything like that. But it's the modern business
and it's not just aw but I think a lot

(52:18):
of companies that's kind of how it goes now.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, totally. And but I think it's a classic in
the sense that it's really cool. The match got to
happen on that big of a stage in a stadium
and it was that good, and it had a clean
finish and it had what felt because I mean, Cody
can cry faster than Tommy Dreamer and.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
And say the word dusty to him and it's over.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Yeah, And and Cody, I'm sorry. In Sina is really
good at at kind of costplaying the locker room leader,
the leader of a generation of wrestlers. And I'm going
to say these words because you know, it's his Twitter feed.
It's very fe it's all about these words of wisdom
that are you know, I mean not all, not all
the platitudes are I rolling. But what's I rolling is
that he's it's the way he presents it. It's like

(53:01):
it's profound and it's it's you know, so he sort
of has this this notion that he's walking this walking
vessel of wisdom and deep thoughts and it's just platitudes
that you can see hanging on the wall at those
old mall stores.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
It's, you know, he'd love to find it. Like he's
totally aware of this, and I know inside joke and
he just keeps doing anythinking it's hilarious. But I don't think.
Wait if like he announced later today that Okay, unless
he's going to surprise people, have kept the secret for
a long time. I am actually an alien. Okay, yeah,
I'm not surprised. I mean it'd be like the last

(53:36):
last exact, surprised but not surprised.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yes, he is Uncanny Valley for sure. Like it's so
much about his his posture, his physical movements, his mouth
and john facial expressions, his his public persona, his acting.
Everything sort of feels like he was an AI generated
illusion for lack of better term. So so all that's said,
I mean we were picking on John Cena whatever he's living,

(53:59):
living in his life, the whispering and scene his ear
with that serious look of yeah you did great, You've
earned this spot. You know, you know what you know,
the type of thing you assume he's telling. Cody's you're
in a leader of this generation. You make that you're
going to pick up the torch and make everybody proud,
like you know, he's we're supposed to think he's saying
that kind of thing. And then you know Cody and
he's talking about his dad of course too. You know

(54:19):
your dad would be so proud. Your dad would be
so proud, and uh, this is your moment living. So
all that's a scene is actually and we make fun
of it. He's really good at portraying that. I also
because I think he buys it personally. So it was
a class Honestly, it was like a really I don't
watch wrestling in a way where I'm going to tear
up at a moment like that. I mean, I'm just
been a journalist and I covered as as a you know,

(54:40):
as a detached person trying to stay objective. But I
can totally buy into fans who get pulled into the
Cody journey and they grew up with Sina and just
looking at that and getting joked up, like this is
a really cool thing. There's no there's you know, seventy
thousand people give or take, uh take cheering this moment,
and it's it's broadcast worldwide on Peacock and Netflix. Yeah,

(55:02):
it's a really really really cool moment, and I'm glad
that we had it. And I was actually really relieved,
even if I was waiting for the other shoot to
drop that that uh during the match, we got that,
and then you know, we have a lessener thing, which
took some away from it, you know, some away from
from that moment. But but you know, if you're dough
to b and we erase all the controversial aspects of it,

(55:24):
you know, you get why they want to pivot to
the next thing in front of that audience.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
I think it took a lot away, I really do.
I mean, they are really good at framing things the
way they want, so on SmackDown, we'll see how they do.
But in the moment, yeah, it was every everything just
shifted to Brock and him being back and what that
means and how it occurred, and like whoa and them
not doing a post show press conference, all of it.

(55:48):
I think it did distract from the Cody and scene.
But it was really well done. I was very pleasantly
surprised by it. I didn't think seen it had that
in him. I really didn't.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
I thought that Yep, I didn't either.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
Yeah, he just reached a point in his life where
he just wasn't capable of it. It happens. I mean,
come watch me play softball ones and you'll see how
pathetic that is. But he really went out there and
just gave us a classic. And I don't know that
we're going to get another one, so savor ite.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Oh that's I think, And I would love to be wrong.
I think that is the peak of John Cena's retirement tour. Yeah,
I would be really surprised if it's not.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
And I don't need to see him take forty five
German suplexis from brock Lester. I fear he will, but yeah,
I don't need to see that. They don't need to
recreate that reason as much as I loved it that
really physical match they had.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Yeah, So I think I have a theory, but I
wouldn't say I put money out, but a theory. We're floating.
So I think Johnson is kind of motivated to outperform Seampunk.
Right now. I think there's bad blood there. I mean
just like like like long terms, I mean, they can
be buddies in palase right now, people baby face each

(57:01):
people don't in this business. Nobody like I should say
I'm gonna overstate, but nobody trusts anybody like oh yeah,
he smiled at me and he told me I'm his boald.
Let's go have drinks in your grade. And I mean,
like Rock is the epitome of this. You know, people
think everybody's phony and they're just trying to, you know,
play politics and be your friend because they think it
serves them ultimately to have more friends than people who
are enemies. But as soon as those people leave the room,

(57:21):
then the person who was flattered and you know, got
that reception then tells they're really good friend who they
know is a friend. Is I buying that crap? So
I don't know the dynamic of Punk and Sena, and
maybe there's a genuine friendship, but I still think there
is an either an unfriendly or friendly rivalry with Sina,
in particular when it comes to Punk, because punk head

(57:41):
his fans and Cenett his fans, and I think Cita
thinks a lot of people boot Sena for a long
time because he wasn't seem punk, and Punk walked out
when Sena endured all the trials and tribulations. I'm on
Punk side, you need to take time off, But I
do know there's people who blame Punk for not topping
it out and sticking it out. So you have all
these It's just a complicated interpersonal dynamic in history. But

(58:02):
I think in a healthy way, Sena was like Punk's
gonna go out there with gun through. Gun Through is
in his prime, and I'm more old, and I'm older
and more beat up than s than Punk, and I
want to have a clearly better match against somebody who
some would argue when Cody is not at quite the
level of goother as a wrestler. I'm not taking a

(58:23):
stant on that because I think they're just very different,
but my point, I'm just getting my point. I think
Sina wanted to go into that weekend and have a
better made event than Seeampunk, in a better performance than Seempunk,
and make the point I'm a better wrestler than seem
Punk when I decide to be, and Punk did not
rise the occasion. He was blown up early in that match.

(58:45):
The match was designed. It seemed designed to just let
Punk lay on the mat and try to catch his
breath for twenty minutes before they got to some moves
to pop the crowd. And part of that you could
say was by design to tell the story he couldn't
fight back against Seth or he is vulnerable to all
the beat down. But I think the briefcase would have
been enough and lulling him at a false sensecurity would
have enough, And so they didn't need to do that

(59:05):
even if they didn't do the lull into false sensecurity part.
So my point is is Sina fastly outperformed Punk. Now
are there things Punk does better than Seena? On display
on Saturday and I compared to Sunday. Sure, style wise,
you might just roll your eyes as some of the
cartoonish stuff of Sceena's awkwardness. But I think Sena indisputably
outperformed Punk Sunday. If you're John Cena and you look,

(59:28):
you go. You know what? Punk Punk and his fans
can stop saying he's better than me, because at my age,
I'll performed him on a big backback stadium weekend. Do
you think you roll your eyes if seen him makes
that case and at me trying to make that case
for him, or do you think no, that that's what
we saw with our own eyes.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
I'm not rolling my eyes, but I don't know either way.
You know I'm not. I'm open to that possibility for sure.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do you think Seene outperformed Punk objectively?

Speaker 3 (59:51):
Oh? Yeah, yeah I do. And I liked Punk's performance
I think more than you. I mean, it was look
to me, like I even mentioned this in one of
the audio shows today, it looked like the heat was
affecting him more than anybody else that worked on those shows,
who worked on the weekend shows. You know, he did
look blown up, but I thought it worked for the

(01:00:14):
story they were telling. But yeah, I thought Scena and
Cody had a better match than punkin con there a
lot more brawling and shortcuts, but that's okay. What matters
is was it a more enjoyable match? And I like
them both a lot, but yeah, I thought the Scene
and Cody match was better.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
There were people I talked to who were like, is
Punk sick? Did like did he have like mono or something?
I mean, going through just took him into an armlock,
and you know, Punk was just grounded, catching his breath
during the match, and it just came across like something.
You know, they were telling a story, but the story
was not anything other than Punk is is just being

(01:00:54):
ragged all for the vast majority of this match. And
you know one ress serbserve that he was gassed out
almost to mediately and in the match, the layout of
the match was just designed to let him get rest
and do nothing for long periods of time, and that's
what you know, led him just thinking maybe he was
sick or something was wrong with him going into the match.
I just think people need to rewatch that match and
kind of observe it, at least through that lens. If

(01:01:14):
they and good good of people found it compelling. I
mean I didn't. I didn't think it was a bad match.
I just think when you look at the layout of it,
and I was thinking during during the match, honestly, I
mean like, well, this is kind of compelling, but I
got to see the whole thing play out before I judge.
But it was just Punk looking gassed from almost the
very beginning and going through methodically laboring the point I

(01:01:35):
would argue too long in a repetitious way where you
could take the first five minutes, second five minutes, and
third five minutes and just shuffle them, and the match
story isn't different. It's just Punk's getting beat up in Ragdon,
and it felt like it was done to protect Punk
because he couldn't go.

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
I would love to tell you I'm going to go
back and watch this match, but yeah, there's just too
much to watch to keep it well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
I feel that way all the time about stuff like
I would I rewat, and there are some times I
will go back in rebox, but it's like it's like
if I'm having a piece of toast, then I've got,
you know, ten minutes, and I want to dempress it.
Let me put that match on and rewatch it instead
of just you know, looking at my phone or something.
But yeah, there's so much going on, so anyway, I
just think Sina is probably pretty proud, and if he

(01:02:16):
does in a friendly competitive way or gentful competitive way,
I think he will mark this down as I won
the weekend as the top baby face headlining a stadium
showing back to back nights.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
I think he can. Yeah, but I will. I will
give you the alternate possibility possible scenario here, which is
that it wasn't Punk as the rival. It was John
Cena race, his alien race versus the human race, and
now in his final stadium show, he's able to say, hey,
I won.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 7 (01:02:53):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere Win Me, along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests, live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:03:14):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
By the way, what do you think of the state
of the Paul Payman Seth Rawlins faction.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
I think they're in. I mean, aside from my gripes
about just not having it not make sense, I like
where they're at. They've had a couple of big beat
down angles now heavy heat moments at the end of raw.
I gotta say, though, the Roman ones are getting a
little too predictable, like, okay, big match, then Roman's probably
getting to go away, so look for Roman to get
beat up and that kind of thing. But I I

(01:03:53):
think so STEP's in a good place obviously. The championship breaker,
I I think I would you know if Seth was
had been legitimately heard it was like this, the silver
lining is okay, they're gonna have to take the training
wheels off here and it's go time with Braun that's
on hold. But I think he's obviously in a great
place and it's you know, eventually things between him and

(01:04:15):
Rawlins will blow up when the time is right. And
I think Bronson Reid with the shoe Lafalla, I think
that he had a pretty fun weekend. I gotta say
the tribal thief and but the shoe la fall of
stuff is pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Yeah, I think that a lot of what we're seeing
is not meant to be a great faction, but a
good faction that sets things up to be great later.
This faction exists as a conduit to get to braun
Breaker being elevated in Bronson Reid being a valuable player
and seth Rawlins having a fresh group to kind of

(01:04:49):
play off of and give him in something to do
every week because he's not managing a part time person.
And I don't think I don't think they think this
is going to be one of the great facts. I
think they think it's serving a great purpose. That's my
take on we're seeing now, in part because I haven't
even named it, and yeah, just the way things have
played out, I'm not saying that. Yeah, I just don't

(01:05:10):
think Paula Back's looking at this going this is a
faction for the ages. I think he thinks this is
a good faction that's serving a larger purpose.

Speaker 3 (01:05:17):
I think, yeah, I think that's fair. I was on
because if somebody mentioned in my commentation last night and
I was like, yeah, my gosh, I'm wondering the same
thing when they banned Read and Break It from Ringside, Like,
are they going to introduce a fourth member, and I
don't count Hayman in that because four Horsemen and JJ Dillon.
It wasn't there's the five Horsemen which JJ. So yeah,

(01:05:40):
I was no one came to mind other than Okay,
well Oba, FAMI and NXT, but they're not calling him
up as NXT champion for this role. And I mean
maybe if I really thought about it, I could come
up with somebody else, but so right now it's a
three man faction plus Hayman. I guess my biggest disappointment
is that it wasn't Hey, Paul go out there and
make this whole thing made sense, because you know he

(01:06:02):
could have, and unless he's changed, unless he doesn't care
about those small details and he's all about the moment now,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I hope not, but yeah, I thought. I thought Paul
Hayman stepped up, by the way last night on Raw
with a one of his I should say stepped up,
But like I'll just I think it was one of
his better promos in a while. I think there's been
some aspects where he hasn't gotten enough time talking and
I wanted to hear more from him, or when he
did talk, it was good. But like I for I
just struck me as like last I was better, there's

(01:06:30):
something he.

Speaker 3 (01:06:30):
Was good with Mediocre. Yeah, it was just sad. What
you see is what you get. It doesn't change a lot.
I'm hoping that now that his wife and that, Yeah,
I mean, maybe it just takes time for something like that.
I'm I'm being genuinely honest about hoping that, Like, Okay,
maybe it's coming, but I don't think so. They still

(01:06:51):
lean into it so much with the fan chanting it
his music. I just I want the guy to be
a heal And I still say when that time comes,
if I don't know what the dynam will be, and
you know, Hayman probably has a plan. I don't know
if mbody else does. For Windbreaker and Seth butt heads
and who's the baby face and all that. Whenever Seth
goes baby Face again, you hit that music, then if

(01:07:11):
it's been going a while and people are going to
go crazy and so I would just make the switch,
But I don't know if they're going to.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Let's let's let's shift away from the men's division for
a moment, talk about the women coming going into and
now coming out of SummerSlam weekend. Obviously, r Ripleyo sky
rivalry continues, Naomi continues to, in most people's opinion, shine
above expectations. You have Charlotte and Alexa with awkward but

(01:07:41):
maybe charmingly awkward exchanges. It's not ideal, but I would
argue it's a that positive still because I think people
are just kind of excited to see Charlotte seem happy
and comfortable in her own skin, even if there's something
uncomfortable but watching her acting. And then you got Becky
and Lyra having an above expectations match over the weekend,
and then you've got Stephan Fook Carer in the wings.

(01:08:03):
So I think there's just, you know, a decent amount
going on. I don't know if there's just a clear
cut top storyline they don't have. They're not pushing Ray
Ripley in a way where they feel like can headline summer,
you know, one of the two nights with her or
Charlote's not at that point, Becky's not at that point.
Oh yeah, Bailey in the mix two, you a little
mister of what's going on with her? So kind of
tell me what stood out the most from the women's
division for you this weekend.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yeah, I think it would be the triple threat. I
thought they did a fine job. You know it once
and it's good. Is the Ria Ripley and Theo Sky evolution,
But I didn't expect it to be. Naomi is holding
her own in the ring. She's not going to shine
as much as those two in the ring in most cases.
But I don't even blame her. It's just, you know,

(01:08:45):
a different match. And I think from a performance standpoint,
though the Naomi character is crushing it. I think she's
doing great. I'm having a lot of fun watching her
because it's obvious that she's having a lot of fun
playing this role. So that stood out to me, and
then I guess some of the other things that that
weren't as positive. I think the women's division is a

(01:09:07):
pretty good place. But I don't know what to make
of Jade Cargill losing as in a match as brief
as it was and it's decisive. It wasn't the you know,
that's a mass record. If Jade's gonna lose, we're gonna
get them. My god, she kicked out. I have two
prettiest moon Salts ever. And no, it wasn't that, So
what does that mean? And then I also it's old.

(01:09:30):
They're definitely over and I'm happy for them, But Charlotte
Flair and Alexa Bliss winning the titles was not something
I would have done because that's where Charlotte usually runs
into trouble, is when they rush her into title wins.
And it may be different because this is the tag
titles and people aren't as invested in those titles, but
I still think you had a really good thing there
where you could have had them in chase mode for

(01:09:52):
a while make people want to see that, not just
first time they went automatically, because that's been an ongoing
problem with Charlotte. First time she get the title Matt,
whether she's her characters earned it or not, she just
gets it because she's the queen, and bam she wins.
It's like, oh god, it again. So yeah, I like
the team of Roxane Perez and Raquel Rodriguez and Jake
Barnett was pointing out on Donnee Weekly that I think

(01:10:15):
part of the reason that they may have been going
with this twitch just for going into the show is
that they want Charlotte and Alexa on both brands, and
that does make sense. But I'm also I have to
remind myself that doesn't seem to matter anymore. They just
put I mean, La Knight's popping up on Raw with
no explanation. He's a SmackDown guy. They don't care anymore
about this, So I don't even know if that would

(01:10:36):
actually be the logic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
Oh, it's they don't care. I mean, it is another
thing where it's like, yeah, there's you know, loose Brandon Phillie.
It's kind of like collision and dynamite at this point.
It's like, yeah, you usually after arts on collision, you know,
usually this guy. Yeah, but it's not hard and fast,
and I don't know, I mean, it shows that they're
kind of comfortable enough to not to think. They don't

(01:11:00):
need to just worry about that. They just want to
make the each show the best it can be each week.
With with loose, loose lines. I mean, it's hardly it's
hardly breaking up a pure, you know, established precedent to
have a hard divide line between them. There's so many
exceptions over the years, and they've you know, come up
with half hearted ways to kind of explain it, and
now they're not even bothering. It's it's annoying, but you

(01:11:21):
know whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
And then one other thing from the women's division. Yeah,
good match between Becky and Lyra, but they always have
good matches. The finish with Bailey was less underwhelming, and
there's still as good as Lyra's in the ring. She
is not connected and that's an ongoing issue. And and
Becky's done everything she can do. There's how to make

(01:11:43):
this work. Clearly, they've they've put she's been put in
the position to get over. It's just her mic work,
whatever it is. It's not that she's a terrible promo either.
She there's just something a little generic about her as
far as her character is concerned.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
And I don't know, He's a nice person who's not
very naturally charismatic.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
Yeah, she's not dynamic, but in the ring she is.
And yeah, I think they thought, well, if we just
keep put her in these positions where she goes out
there and crushes it, the fans are really going to
get behind her, and they do when the bell rings,
but as soon as she talks, they just kind of
sit there. And now it's like I was happy to
see her say that she and Bailey are going separate ways,

(01:12:23):
because when that finished occurred, I'm like don't you guys
remember the last time you put these two in the ring.
The fans sat on their hands. They were bored out
of their minds. They're good wrestlers, but it's just no,
those characters are not clicking. I was actually open Bayley,
you're just gonna turn and join Becky, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Yeah, it's weird, you know. I know they introduce all
these you know, these additional titles to give people things
to fight over, but there is something about the titles
feeling less important though too. I mean, I think that
stands out where you know, you have somebody at Becky's
caliber involved in a title feud. I think it does
diminish the value of the other two championships. And I
think Tiffany and Jade felt less important to me, even

(01:13:02):
though it felt like the you know, a tough booking
decision at a crossroads for both of them. You know,
we people could see what happened, the opposite happening or
some cop out, and they went with something decisive, which
felt like we're more in the Tiffany business and Jade business.
And this also better fits the trajectory of a story
that might make sense six months from now. As we
look back regarding Jade, but the match itself, it just

(01:13:25):
felt like, oh, it's one of several women's titles being defended,
and that diminishes all this stuff happening seeming more important too.
I mean, not not that that would suddenly make what's
happening with Bailey and Becky and Libra feel more important
or you know, significantly important, but it would help if
there just was one or two singles titles. I can't
believe we're saying or two, like, well, we'll compromise with two. Yeah,

(01:13:49):
So anything else in the women's vision, I mean, I
just I think we got to kind of wait to
see how things play out a look, or it feels
a little ensemble like I mean, the Charlotte do agree
with me? The Charlotte Alexa stuff is is awkward and
cringey but also charming and effective.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Yeah, it's working for the fans, mortgage working for me.
The thing I like most about it was the We're
not friends t shirts and now they don't even need
those because they're admitting their friends and wow, you guys
cost yourself some monuments though, those seemed like people Actually
that's what got people invested in this to begin with.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
You know, they say they sell this. They send us
the losing team super Bowl shirts to like, you know,
Africa for people in new class, Like, there's gonna be
a bunch of people in Africa not knowing what it says.
We're wearing T shirts. They were not friends, and somebody
who knows English is going to go, what is that
all about? Why are you hanging out with this guy
if you're not friends? They got a extra extra, you know,
seventeen boxes full of those that they're never going to sell. Yeah, okay,

(01:14:50):
Oh so celebrity. We had a jelly Roll logan Paul
in that tag match? Did it work as a you know,
semi final on Night one? For you? I thought, you know,
jelly Row is more good than bad and protected effectively.
I have sort of a baked in respect for the
tone he's taken and that he'd you know, he didn't,

(01:15:13):
you know, like I just McAfee. I mean, McAfee's better
athlete obviously, obviously, but meg View is like, look at me,
It's all about me and Jelly Rows, Like, Okay, it's
time for my spot. I know I'm here to have
a spot and tell a story, but it's not about
me trying to prove that I'm a wrestler. It's I'm proved.
I'm out to prove I'm not in embarrassment and I
can be fed something that will look decent. And I

(01:15:33):
think there was some like, you know, you get some
credit for having kind of the right tone, because it's
just about trying to set Logan Paul straight, not prove
he's a superstar.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
He did a great job. We're considering all things that
he's okay trained prior to his uh And I apologize
the third time through for the long crew from health
God forbid. They just do everything in one run. No no,
but I think they're just blowing leave it or so
it couldn't take too long. But yeah, I was impressed
by Jelly roll the attitude talking to somebody that knows

(01:16:06):
him from the performance center and just saying like, yeah,
what is being said about him putting the work in
is very true and that he is just a big
fan and very respectful and yeah, what you see on
TV is what you get. And so that was really
cool to hear. I you know, going in like I
do the song and he can't avoid Jelly really pops
up on every sports show or anything major. He's always there,

(01:16:28):
but it was, you know, it's like I take him
or leave him. I'm not like a big fan whatever.
But as this went on and the more I learned,
I really did gain respect for the guy. And hey,
it's a rare case. I think it's probably pretty telling.
A celebrity took the loss in his first match. That
doesn't that was a baby face that doesn't happen often.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Yeah yep. I don't know if there's much more to
say about it beyond that, you know, just it's it
started to purpose as a suitable serviceable, you know, mainstream
media generating thing that elevated Summerslime a little bit to
the casual fan, you know, brought some eyeballs onto it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Yeah, and I don't know how many it did. I mean,
I know, like your old friend stepmom or not my
s her stepmom. Her mom actually is. She likes jelly
roll and she was aware of this. I don't know how,
but she was. And she exactly reaching out to me
asking questions about it. So it's not like it didn't
get any mainstream attention if she was aware of it,

(01:17:27):
because she's not watching wrestling.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah yep, anytime you're watching ww E Raw or SmackDown
or aw Dynamite in particular, send us an email if
you've got thoughts on the show or a topic you
want us to address or a question for us. Wade
Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Wadekeller Podcast at
petewtorch dot com. If there's anything else going on in

(01:17:50):
pro wrestling that you want us to address on our
main podcast during our mailbank segments, that same email applies
Wade Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. We invite
that inner action, let us know what you think of
what we're saying, and let us know what you want
us to talk about and ask us specific questions. Wade
Keller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Uh, then I

(01:18:13):
guess just if we're gonna kind of I don't We
don't have to cover everything on both the night's Summer
Slam but Dominic. Last night on Raw featured coming out
of Summer Slam. He had his match with Aged Styles
a little follow up on that where are you on Dominic?
Because people feel passionately about him now as a kind
of a cult favorite of this era who they want

(01:18:37):
to see go on to not stay at the level
he's at, but they think there's a chance, a good
chance he will succeed if more is asked of him,
you know, a year or two or three years from now,
when he can have a good run in his thirties
as a borderline top tier or top tier guy. How
are you feeling about his performances and that framework that

(01:18:57):
I that I you know, read and hear.

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
Yeah. I mean we've been saying for a while that
I don't rule rule it at anything with Dom as
far as like his upside is concerned. He's young enough,
and he's worked hard, and he's got himself over. He's
come a long way from those early days, and so yeah,
I do think there's a bright future there. But I
was not a fan of the match. I it's just like,

(01:19:20):
all of a sudden, you you do this big aj
styles dress up build where he's like tormenting Dom. I
get it, but then it's just like, hey, it's an
Eddie Guerrera when raym mystereo tribute? Matt, Like, where did
that come from? And I don't mean to sound disrespectful.
Has any wrestler ever been paid tribute to more than

(01:19:41):
Eddie Carrero.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
No, I mean you.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Cannot wrestler, can not. There's like some rule you cannot
be a frog splash without doing the shimmy.

Speaker 1 (01:19:49):
Yep. Yeah, it's tantes respuffle to state that that is
the case. And I think the legacy of licheat and
steel has dictated a lot of bad booking over the too.
Because it worked for Eddie, it doesn't mean it's something
you can you know, stamp. You know, it's kind of
a boilerplate approach for very many baby faces without it
breaking down the whole system of how he's get heat.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
Well, you started watching in nineteen eighty ish, like I did.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
I think seventy eight, Yeah, seventy nine probably. I've tried
to map it out looking at George Tire's history book,
and there's things I remember from like I think seventy nine.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
By the way, awesome shows with him. I really enjoyed that.
I felt bad because I like credited. He was featured
in a Star Tribune article and little did I know
you'd had him on the podcast already, Like, oh so yeah,
that was really cool. I like those. You know, the
more I think, I'm guessing I was probably closer to
eighty one eighty two, just because I don't remember Holgan
as a heel at all, but I do remember like

(01:20:44):
your first mash was Verne's retirement. Yeah, I remember that,
so it just probably have forgotten thing. But the point
I'm trying to make and I'm getting to is that,
so if you were seventy eight, how would you have
felt if the wrestling you were watching they were just
like random tributes that would break out the things from
nineteen fifty eight? Wad I mean, it's been twenty years

(01:21:06):
that they paid tribute to a match from twenty years
ago other than Blue, Like, if you build to it,
give people a chance to go back and watch it.
And you and I were around for that. I remember
it fondly. I just don't need an ongoing tribute to
it out of nowhere. It just felt so weird and random,
and it's just not what I was looking for from
that match, even though it seemed to be in the minority.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Well, I think the because Ray has been a has
been consistent, and Dominic is his son, and he is
popular and has exceeded I think a lot of people's
expectations as a performer and a wrestler in the ring
he's gotten better. I think they're just a feeling of okay,
there's enough lineage over time to justify continuing to keep it,

(01:21:49):
and they've just talked about him non stop. We also
are in an era where through dotav network YouTube before
that DVD's there's just more of an awareness of history
than we had. I think about that all the time, though,
I mean, I'm you're not You're not wrong, because I think,
oh God, when I think about a show that I
still think of as sort of like modern New Girl,

(01:22:14):
for instance, I don't think of that as like some
retro show, but like if I think about when it
started and where we are now and then I do
the math on when I was watching like Cheers for
the first time, it was like like New Girls, like
I'll have Lucy or something or Mary Tyler more like. So, yeah,
the thing like, I don't know if there's just a
slowing down of you know, evolution, because in certain things

(01:22:36):
are sped up. I think one thing is slowed down
is just production values are kind of where they've been
for television for a while, and you had the black
and white color era and you had I don't know,
that's a whole sidebar thing. But I get your point. Okay,
let's let's talk. I'm gonna talk about aw I. They've
like announced almost nothing for tomorrow night. It's a kind
of a lull after all in I don't you know,

(01:22:59):
I mean MGF and Mark Brisco in a grudge match.
They're not saying it's for a world title shot in
the graphic. I think people came out of the last
week so confused. Got Queen Amnada, sky Blue, Billy Starks,
Alex Windsor in a four way qualifier for Forbidden Door.
And I think that's all they've announced so far, at
least on social media. So they're not giving us a

(01:23:21):
lot to talk about here on the flagship. And it
just almost kind of feels like booking wise, it's just
just sort of phoned in decent stuff the last couple
of weeks, kind of maintenance shows. And I don't know,
I mean there's maybe Tony strateg strategically is wait and
get past Summer Slam, but it's not like he's doing
anything to steal headlines, you know, today and yesterday.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
No, you know, I think the shows have been solid.
The Dynamo Yea, And there was one episode of collision.
I'm like, oh, that's better than usual.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Young Bucks in Brodido is announced. I just want to
quickly correct myself before we get too far on that,
I'm sure. And they're announcing Mercedes Monette will be there
showing off all her belts. So they have announced three
matches and Mercedes appearing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
Yeah, and at the same Yeah, they're not grabbed. They're
not having moments, right, They just haven't lately that have
really grabbed attention. But you're going to have times like that,
and you know, I don't think you need to just
swing for the fences every week. But when I also
look at the viewership numbers they've been bringing in lately
and say, I want to pick up the pace a
little bit here, because even the show coming out of

(01:24:24):
your biggest event, to your stadium show, there's pretty underwhelming.
So yeah, they, I hate to say it, they could
use a moment. They need something.

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean I like King Medis Champion. I'm
enjoying the Young Bucks.

Speaker 3 (01:24:41):
Yeah, that's been fun.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
Yeah, And you know so, I mean Tony Storm is
Tony Storm. I think Mercedes is in a better place
since she's ben in a while. Well, let's what do
you think happened with m Jeff and Heertzidy can. I
think that's actually the biggest curiosity of what's gone on
in the last few weeks.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
I don't know what's going on there. I mean, it
may just be one big weird swerve. I can't rule
that out completely. And also maybe they're looking at it
going we wan't MG have to be a heel and
the other guys, we might as well just make them
babyfaces because they have no interest in being heels. They're
just gonna beat up everybody and maul them on the

(01:25:17):
mic and ring. So I don't know, and or whatever
they have in mind for this tournament. The way it's
playing out, it may make more sense to have them
in the babyface role. So yeah, I don't know if
it's temporary, If it is a real split, I'm not
sure it. It's been strange, but I mean, then again,
so was MG joining the Hurts, and you get in
a good way strange all along.

Speaker 1 (01:25:38):
Yeah, I have a big picture question about AW, which is,
are we at a point where we have to start
wondering how they're going to replenish their roster. I mean,
it was launched on New Japan and PWG and some
top do would be cast offs and signings like Moxley

(01:26:00):
and Jericho and not cast us. But then try and
trying to get more out of uh uh ty Dillinger,
you know, getting reframed a couple of people here and there,
but like I mean, and they can ride out who
they have for a while, but you know, Kenny's beat
up part time, will Osprey's beat up and who knows.
I just like when you look at the lay of

(01:26:20):
the land, I mean post COVID, there's is what do
you think of the indie scene in terms of being
a feeder system? De to be is taking all these
people from you know, training them from cradle to grave
practical well you know that using the lunamic man things
cradle the grave which not it so are, but like
they're just they're recruiting and from the ground up. These
are people who maybe maybe might have been wrestling fans,

(01:26:40):
didn't know wrestling was going to be their thing, kind
of the Lex Lugar thing of getting just oh you
look like a wrestler, let's turn you into one, or
people who dreamed of their whole lives but they don't
have that that that real Indie that that real Indie
experience to have as a foundation. But I don't even
know Indie scene wise what AW is doing to try
to like scout and get ahead of signing people at

(01:27:02):
this point. And you know, I mean they can you know,
get women from stardom. I mean maybe if they can
piece it together as a challenger brand with a smaller roster.
I don't know, what do you think about that? We
could ask that any week, but it came up to
this past week while I was talking to some people
off air.

Speaker 3 (01:27:16):
Yeah, I do think they're falling behind that the whole
id system, even like WWE finding more room for some
of their talent to work in TNA with the launch
of Evolved. You know, they've been able to find spots
even LFG to find things to do for so much
of the talent that they have that you know, you

(01:27:37):
just at some point you're thinking, like, gosh, they can't
keep all these people, But so far they're keeping more.
Then you know, there's going to be cuts along the way.
We've got a heck, I mean, for all, I know,
we're going to get them soon because they do have
the investor call. I think tomorrow even coming up, and
so there's gonna be things like that. There's going to
be people that come up on the ND scene that

(01:27:59):
wwe you know, they're not gonna have room for everybody.
I don't know how much Tony pays attention internationally to,
you know, below the radar kind of stuff. We know
he's obviously a big international fan, but is he paying
attention to the up and comers, the indie scene there?
And I don't even know how much of an indie
scene there is these days over in England, which used
to be a great feeder system there saw so yeah,

(01:28:21):
and frankly, they just there's been a lot of talent
that came in that had that looked promising that he
really didn't get as much out of as I think
he could have. There's only so many spots he has too,
and I applaud him for turning down just how many
people he was trying to feature on the week we
tell the Flagship Dynamite on a weekly basis. That's been

(01:28:43):
an improvement, but I do think some more chances could
be taken, not just on ring of honor because it
doesn't count, but on collision to try to elevate some people.
I mean, Dante Martin has been spinning his wheels since
he came back from his injury, and there's maybe there's
a good reason for some of these people too, But
you know, what happened to Hook I have no idea

(01:29:04):
what's going on with him. So there's just the lee
moriarities of the world. People that they had seemed like
they were high on, that had upside just kind of
seem like in many cases they're in the same spot
now that they were that And it's.

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
Hard to elevate people when you see them at that
spot for a long time and they're treated as not
a big deal for so long, it's hard to just
shift gears and go, well, now they're a big deal.
I just you know, I mean, it can happen, but
it has to happen through like you know, the Brett
hard example you and I lived through. You know, oh
kind of a job or just an opening match guy
with no charisma to oh night heart and Brett they

(01:29:40):
got something here. This is good, Oh Brett ice Champ,
these matches are good. He's he's different. There's a different
kind of charisma for him, and he's a guy look
forward to on the undercart kind of replacing you know,
Randy Savage Tito sen Tena is sort of that icy
champion match that you look forward to before the Formula
A Cogan match or after the Formula Cogan match bows
out before in their mission and then oh, Hogan's steroids.

(01:30:02):
We need a fresh look. Lex Slugar probably not gonna,
is not working out. Let's go something different. Bret's reliable,
he is a super trooper. Is Vince you know, patronizing?
You called a month and uh so, you know we
watched that, but there was that story was told er
the fans experienced it. We're just not seeing that with
many people, Like they could have told that story with

(01:30:23):
Anthony Bones, but they decided he's going to be obsessed
with scissors and Billy Gunn instead of telling a story
that that's you know that where fans are connecting with
him on some sort of journey, and it's I think
it's too late for him. I think it's you know,
the last like the vast majority of his running a
w has been terribly mismanaged, and.

Speaker 3 (01:30:43):
It feels like fight for a while and then hey,
we're the acclaimber back together and that that's when he'll
probably get his best pushes when the claimber back together.

Speaker 1 (01:30:51):
Mm hmm, yep, and yeah, and that's just like wave
and knife flight going Oh we tried, but we felt Yeah,
it's like Billy Gun singles wrestler. No got to get
back with BG James. That didn't work. So yeah, I mean,
I just I don't know. It's just I don't know
how much Tony Cokn is sitting around thinking about it.
Because Tony, you know, it seemed like what he wanted
to do is is have great, great dream matches for him.
And the question is does he have that that second

(01:31:12):
wave in him Once the you know, the the the
Moxley Omega Jericho stuff kind of that those those signings
and early starts age out or get too injured to
really be full time, what are you left with? And
you've got MGF and Hangman and sadly one of your
top axeitud's the biggest reaction is m v P and

(01:31:34):
Lashly and uh and and and Shelton. And that's not
a tribute to anything, you know that Tony Khn is
you know, built from the ground up there, you know,
And maybe they'll just be enough do to be cast
offs and he'll keep bringing them in. But I think
there's going to be more, you know, Keith Lee's where
you'll learn pretty quickly why or russevs. You'll learn pretty
quickly why someone who's you know, just up. You know,

(01:31:56):
in Keith Lee's case, it's not a guy you can
just rely on to be a top guy who says case,
not a particularly serious person, not super motivated to do anything.
I just kind of go through the moment, like you
just learned that the hard way, that maybe the people
are cast offs for a reason. Even if people are like,
oh my god, they let him go, so when are
utilized and then Tony deals with them and he's like,

(01:32:17):
oh now I get it. But I just I think
that's just put a pin in it. As they say,
you know, kind of keep an eye on it. It's
time to start thinking about that if you're TK and
not riding out the new Japan Free agents signing era.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
Yeah, and I think there will be some cast off
that aren't just your traditional Okay, these people have been
wasting away on the main roster for a year and
they just finally got rid of them, and there's really
no upside there because they've just there's such damaged goods.
I think there will be some of the talent that,
you know, you don't have room for everybody. So a
talent right now that might be happy doing their thing
unevolved isn't going to be happy doing that forever. And

(01:32:50):
you know, I think most people are just going to
be there, are going to move up at different time,
but maybe not everybody. And maybe there's going to be
people that were WW was the dream. Maybe aw's around
long enough that becomes some younger wrestlers dream dish to
go there, So even if they start in WWE, they
might have an eye on AW. But I mean I
do in general, I would hope that there is that

(01:33:13):
Tony's being a little more mindful of it than he
seems to be, because yeah, I don't get any impression
that is not like, oh, wwe launch the ID then
we boy, we got to come back with something here
and there. There hasn't been any any answer to it yet. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:33:26):
Yeah, longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to
learn some wrestling history, don't miss the nineties Past Cast
Every Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex
and Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past.
By taking you through the Torch issue from that very week,

(01:33:49):
follow news from the WWF and WCW and all.

Speaker 4 (01:33:52):
The happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time
as The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the
nineties past cast every Farani for the PW Torch Daily
Cast feed.

Speaker 1 (01:34:12):
All right, well, let's let's shift to do WA be unreal.
It's conceptually a show that I was concerned about. One
of the reasons was I didn't want in the cannon
of Ron SmackDown a bunch of stuff being shown to
promote the show that undercut the immersive experience of watching
the show, just the same way I don't want to
watch a Superman movie and you know, forty five minutes

(01:34:32):
into it, have something that reminds me that these are actors,
and they start telling me about you know, what the
director told the actors to do, Like, no, let me
have my experience in wrestling. It's a never ending experience.
It's an and it's an ongoing movie and that's, you know,
part of what makes it different. And then the old
thing about you know, wrestlers are more like rock stars
instead of comedians and actors. People want to believe that
what they see there's a level of authenticity to it,

(01:34:53):
and that they are that they are what they seem
and you don't and if they're not, you don't want
it to throw it your face, So wie unreal? At
least the clips are showing on on runs backdown are
pretty innocuous, you know, in that sense. So then you
want the show itself to seem like it's serving a
certain purpose. And I guess, Jason, my question to you

(01:35:16):
is is the purpose? Give Netflix more programming at any cost,
even if there's a negative. Is it we want to
turn Paula Beck into a star? This is vehicle for him,
kind of like Dana White and yeah, fighter, yeah, yes,
is this? Uh we don't, I don't. I'm not on camera.
And I went to an a of the hand gesture

(01:35:36):
of you know, self uh selfish masturbatory? Is it? Is
it somebody trying to just you know, put themselves on
TV because they missed the spotlight and they want people
to see how how great they are at their job.
I think there's aspects of that. And then you know
there's writers, you know, and Cosky gets to be on
camera now and here's this writer and that writer and
you know, Bruce Pritchard, you know kind of you know,

(01:35:58):
the whole Chris Park thing made me a little on COMP.
I felt that was a bit manufactured. And he's someone
I don't know that it was Wade.

Speaker 3 (01:36:04):
No, that was my thought too initially because it's just like, wow,
they're playing off like what he used to be like
in T and A, and I don't know that they were.

Speaker 1 (01:36:13):
No, that's not all what I mean when I say manufactured,
I mean they know how he is in real life.
He didn't know he was that manufactured, but that they
made up the idea that the time was an issue
to stress him out, knowing they could make good TV
and make fun of him and humiliate him on on
Unreal Because this Purce Pritchard looking at I mean anything,
Bruce Richard says, it's like, well, it's got a twenty

(01:36:33):
percent chance to be accurate and a forty percent chance
it's a deliberate line, a forty percent chance it's he
forgot it, doesn't know any better and.

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
Will still act like he remembers. It's kind of been
the rep.

Speaker 1 (01:36:44):
There, Yes, yes, and and I'm I don't know that
he would with a couple of drinks sitting around go yeah,
that's me, you know. I mean, I don't know that
he'd be offended by that framing of it. He might be,
but I don't care. That's just that's the perception of
the business and my perception of him when it comes
to time about this. So when he looks at the
camera and goes, you know, people go with Netflix, we
can have any time for him and it doesn't matter.
But no, we do like what, No, you don't. If

(01:37:05):
a Mexico's three minutes long, that means nothing. Every raw
on Netflix has been a different length by a few
minutes here and there. Now that's SmackDown's they cut an
hour out. They had like twenty minutes on average to raw,
I think roughly, but maybe fifteen so but it's not
it's not a hard number. That just doesn't pass any
kind of logic, any kind of test for me of

(01:37:25):
being authentic. So I think that was setting up trying
to stress out Chris park form her Abyss, who had
a reputation well established, well reported by us Jason that
he was so insecure comically so almost pathetically so. But
people love him and he was a hard worker and
and a you know, smart enough guy to land this job,

(01:37:47):
just like you know Pete Williams and Billy Kidman, these
people who you know were wrestlers and they had their careers,
but now they've really landed in a good spot. Jamie
Noble and Jason Jordan. Okay, I'll stop people like him.
But I felt like that was Bruce Pritchard and the
producers manipulating a situation to create television that just made

(01:38:07):
them kind of look like dicks, because like, it doesn't
matter if you're running a minute too long, you're stressing out.
A guy who is just clinically stressed out all the
time and insecure about the job he's doing. I was.
I was uncomfortab watching it. I made a chuckle because
it's like, Okay, now I get to see what I've
been told all along I've ever seen it, and it
matched exactly the description of him going back to his
wrestling days. But I, to me, I thought that was

(01:38:27):
manufactured for TV by some bullies.

Speaker 3 (01:38:30):
The timing of it, though, like I didn't. Maybe I'm
not giving them enough credit. Would boy, it's it's night
one on Netflix, and that's what you're worried about doing,
You know you're going to orchestrate something for this show
right at the end of the you know your well.

Speaker 1 (01:38:45):
I think they do the first. I mean, I think
they knew they were filming something pretty important for Netflix.
They were that is a peak, as we could tell
an episode on the peak of them thinking this is
the biggest game changer ever. Michael Coles practically I won't
even say what's happening to him talking about being on Netflix. So,
I mean, and he's just you know, bubbling over with excitement,
and so I just think they're like, we got to

(01:39:05):
come up something for unreal that'll be like, well, let's
let's pretend that this main event. If if we go
three minutes and three minutes intead of three minutes, and
or if we go three minutes and six minutes intead
of three minutes and three minutes, we're in big trouble.
I mean whatever, I just I'm not buying it. I
don't think they I mean, is it possible the whole
show ran long and Netflix said you have to be
under three hours and or under a certain amount.

Speaker 3 (01:39:28):
And we're all the buzz that day. I believe that
the Observer was reporting that that day, like the Nickel
like they were at some point in the afternoon. I
think they were looking at going three hours and fifteen
or three hours in forty minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:39:41):
Yep. So so I'm like, Ben over backwards try to
be like, oh I could maybe there's a narrow episode
one where the show is running along and they were
stressed out and just happened to work out. I just
think they're like, Okay, I know it's a big night
for net for Net for Raw, but we need content
for unreel too, because the first episode is going to
be built entirely around this. What can we come up with? Well,
we don't know if we have anything good, so let's
just free out Chris Poor Chris Park potentially totally totally

(01:40:04):
a theory, but I don't see an inconsistency with it,
and I see more inconsistencies with it being you know,
a legit concern. And when again it's Bruce Ritchard looking
at the camera telling me, so I'm my default mode
is okay, what's their work?

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
Okay? So real quick, real quick, folks. If just to
show you how far back this goes. For those who
don't know the character Eric Young, don't fire Eric. That
was based on Chris Park behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
Yep, yep. So I'd say more important is what's your
impression of the series. I know you were all over
reviewing it at the beginning, and I know you know
there's there's what they could have done with it and
what they did with it. So that's a talking point.
And there's also like Randy Orton going the old school
and he doesn't love it, and wrestlers being concerned that
they didn't know they were being filmed backstage four unreal

(01:40:52):
when they were letting their guard down, and now they
feel like they don't have a place that they can
feel safe unless they're behind a closed lock room door
thought a camera now to let their guard down, and
maybe some liberties were taken with some of the content
that was used without being cleared ahead of time. Wrestlers
have no agency for backlass, you know, to backlash against this.
I mean, I don't think Cody has agency much, you know,

(01:41:13):
and if he doesn't, you're down. I mean, there's very
few people except people at the end of their career
like Gorton, who are going to feel safe speaking out.
But that's an interesting aspect too, is did could you
see some wrestlers going, wait, that's not really something I
wanted out there. Maybe check with me first, and do
you think some lines were crossed in that way? Obviously
other people were playing up the camp you know knew

(01:41:33):
it and we're playing it up.

Speaker 3 (01:41:34):
Yeah. I mean you'd have to point a certain scenario
you think we're like that. You know, nothing jumped out
in me that. If I was a wrestler, I'd be like,
why did you put that out there? But you know,
everybody is different with what it's there. It's their life,
it's their public image. What could they want out? And
so I would understand if there were wrestlers who were
upset by that. Totally. It has to be more stressful

(01:41:57):
than ever to be backstage now because it is well
maybe not as Russell Vince gone, I'll back up there,
but just because like you said, you're always on camera
now and I don't know how long they filmed, how
long they gave it, took a break, but there's always
something going on in this company, and it's just man.

(01:42:18):
You would think like backstage would kind of like okay,
now I can breathe a little bit, and I don't
think they can. So that's got to be a pressure cooker,
especially when you know you're like Maria Ripley. They talk
about how she has panic attacks and things like that,
and now you're sticking a camera in her face almost
like I hate to say it, but probably with you know,
depending on who's filming, hoping she's going to have a

(01:42:40):
panic attack so they can catch it and they're not
trying to trigger her, but they're not going to be
disappointed if she does. That's just the way reality television works.
But as far as the overall series is concerned, yeah,
I did feel like this is a platform to try
to make look back the Dana White of WWE, and

(01:43:00):
I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (01:43:01):
That next to Donald Trump last week helps in that regard.

Speaker 3 (01:43:03):
Well yeah, but putting that aside, even like, I don't
think it's a bad strategy. I don't think that came
off poorly. I think a lot of those just coaching
father figure moments did make him look good. I didn't
get the sense that they didn't feel contrived to me.
I mean, everyone you know, he knew he was on

(01:43:24):
a camera, of course, but I didn't get the sense like, oh,
he's really playing it up for the cameras, And maybe
you felt differently about that, But yeah, I just had
so many emotions from this show, like the the house
giddy they were about pulling off the scene of Turn
Surprise and like, oh my god, call him was I mean,

(01:43:44):
they're just they still believe this was like one of
the if not the greatest turn of all time. It's
like pulled back a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:43:51):
Here, guys like a giant hastily created b plan with
with with a poor follow up Because the turn, everyone
people for months assumed Sina sold out to Rock and like,
he didn't. That's never been that's never been.

Speaker 8 (01:44:05):
It.

Speaker 1 (01:44:05):
He just happened to share a look with the Rock.
But they never talked about scene and never talked about
the Rock except like briefly in passing in a way
that really said nothing. And then he recently goes, yeah,
these people who talked me into doing something abandoned me.
So he basically said, yah, I didn't really do anything
for the Rock or with the Rock. They abandoned me.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
Yeah, that whole I mean, Cody was Cody was offered
to sell to the Rock.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
Scene wasn't scene. It just turned heel and did his
own thing. That's the thing, Like I think people projected
onto scenea's turn what they thought Cody was going to
do and what the storyline was, and it never was.
It was a b plan and Scena didn't want to
be in rock shadow during his heel run and Rock.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
When you see they'd play out, he's hugging Cody looking
at Rock. Rock gives the signals. So it's like they
were in cahoots. It wasn't like Rock just did this
hoping John Ceena would. I mean from a character standpoint,
and it certainly felt like, oh, these two talked us over.
At the very least, Rock knew what Shana was going
to do and they're I don't know's.

Speaker 1 (01:45:04):
I don't think that's necessarily the only way to look
at what happened there. I mean I think I think
Cody said no, and Sina looked at Rock and said,
how about me? I mean like, did they talk? Yeah,
I mean did they talk? I talked a lot about
this right after, But I mean did they talk about
different possibilities that were Uh, if we believe their characters,

(01:45:25):
do they you know, discuss some grievances and maybe it'd
be better if you did this?

Speaker 3 (01:45:29):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
Sure, Like I'm not saying they that the canon isn't
that they didn't have conversations, but I don't think that
it had to be. I'm about to execute something that
I guaranteed you I was going to do before this
as much as the moments here, I've made my decision.
I think you're right, Rock, I am going to turn
on Sina and the fans, on Cody and the fans,
and Rock's like, yeah, good, okay, go ahead, fun might

(01:45:53):
I guess you're.

Speaker 3 (01:45:54):
I just didn't see it that way. I mean, I'm but.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
The follow up backs that up. They didn't it was
but it's.

Speaker 3 (01:46:00):
Like, what the hell happened with Rock? I mean, clearly
something else happened where he's just like persona non grata
Now it's it's so weird. So yeah, I don't know.
I mean, but what you're saying about seeing and not
wanting to just be in Rock shadow, I totally get that.
You know, this is his big heel turn, and when
it happened that that was one of the thoughts of like,
so scene, it's going to be subservient to Rock. Now,

(01:46:21):
that's kind of weird to think it Rocks the final boss.
So John Cena is not that was a little bit strange.
Uh So, I wonder if it was like they went
into this like with the planned Yeah it's gonna be
Rocks the final boss, and it was Seen is looking
to him and Rock gives the signal and they had
they were in cahoot. But then afterward it was like
about this guys, I mean, Seen, of course will tell

(01:46:45):
us that whatever they give him, he will do at
all time. I did enjoy that basically saying cut the
crap about that. When Seen it was kind of giving
him that line as he was recapping a story. I'm like, good, uh,
because I mean, seriously, if you talk to people who
were behind the scenes in WWE her round Seeing it
not that he was like awful about it or anything,
but yeah, he was not always I will do whatever

(01:47:07):
you say.

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
I mean he had his opinions to yeah, yes, oh
for sure, and sometimes Seen his shows up and he goes,
all right, put that into it, or you know, what
have you got for me? And John Pierrine talked about
this even back in his time when he was working
with Seeing. He's like, yeah, He's like what he got
for me? And he's like, okay, thanks. Forty five minutes later,
See and he goes all right, here's what we're gonna do,
you know, like.

Speaker 3 (01:47:26):
Yeah, well you're just the nexus that he used his
influence with. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:47:31):
Yeah, so I yeah. And also we might be giving
them more credit trying to kind of dissect the details,
because I do think there's a lot of what goes
on to where we are sitting here going they are
playing chess and three D chess and they've thought it
all through and how often does it turn out? Yeah,
they weren't even asking the questions we were asking, and

(01:47:52):
you know, yeah, let.

Speaker 3 (01:47:54):
Me ask you, what do you think the goal is though?
Because unreal, Well, just try to make levec the data.
I mean, I don't know if they'd outright say that if
you got him in an honest coming, but just to
spotlight him as much as they are, because to me,
it's like you had that Evince and your publicly traded company.
You've weathered that storm. It's not like there was oh man,

(01:48:16):
well their events is gone. People are selling their stock
and we got to prop this guy. No, you weathered
that storm. Why are you putting so much stock into
one person? What if things don't go well there? Then
what you built him up to be? This all knowing
figure and he goes away for whatever reason, and then
you got to start that all over again, when it

(01:48:37):
just be better to make it seem like it's yeah,
he's on top, but it's a well oiled machine.

Speaker 1 (01:48:43):
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(01:49:03):
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So I yeah, I think two things. One, Paul of

(01:49:25):
x ego, it's a it's a healthy bordering on unhealthy
ego that drove him to need you know, his oxygen
is being recognized and being featured and being successful. He
is ambitious, and ambition can be good, but it can also,
you know, drive you in a way where you leave
behind some things that are more important life because you

(01:49:45):
get so hung up on fame and recognition and all
that and so. But a lot of people who are
more balanced and have I think a healthier outlook don't
end up as famous as the famous people. You know.
So it is what got him to the stage. But
so I think there's an ego in a drive to
be recognized and famous. I think that's like not that
important in life, but you know, overall, but teach their
own So I think that drives it, Like I want

(01:50:07):
to be the face of the brand we need to have.

Speaker 3 (01:50:08):
That's yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:50:12):
So that's one thing that that I think he can
sell them as as being important and use his his
uh political maneuverings to to make that happen. Number two,
they want to have a new face of the company.
He was in Vinsic Man and somebody who has good
both fans here did an NFC. So the hard cores.
It's a little shaking out with a big part of

(01:50:33):
the audience, but the hard cores liked him. The art
and fans liked him. He was a guy who brought
NXT takeovers to them and was the anti Vince guy
for years, a sympathetic figure who had to tiptoe through
controversies because of what Vince says. So I gotta be
careful about what I say. And Paulavek is part of
the Stephanie mcman Nick con like, the the group of
people who want Vincent man away for forever and the

(01:50:59):
ones we're fighting and trying to figure out what leverage
we have to keep Vince from coming back in and
getting get rid of board members and putting his people
in and putting usself back and putting himself back in place.
They are the anti Vince team and Stephanie unless something's changed.
I mean, she Vince couldn't even be in the same
room together, like it's like pass the grand kids off.
So and Vince humiliated it was, you know, I don't

(01:51:19):
know if humiliated her as a word, but ousted her
from a job she liked, you know that the corporate
chair title she liked and the co chair with Nick,
and he came in and just ousted her. I mean,
and you know, look at her tribute to him when
he announced retirement on Twitter. It was the bare minimum
to not make just enough, to not make news that
you didn't do enough, but not anything more. And graded
there were a lot of extenuating circumstances that made that,

(01:51:41):
you know, prudent to do. So you also have the
camp that's like, we want our stockholders and our sponsors
and our licensing partners and the media, the corporate media,
to say you're in good hands. There's this guy, you
know his face, he's in control. He's got this bald
head and this already looks like a badass, but he

(01:52:01):
can talk and articulate. He can be with executives, and
he can also be with wrestlers. And so there was
a lot of concern early on that without Vince, people
were gonna panic because they thought Vince was the guy
who made this all work. And if you take them away,
it's like, what if Elon Musk isn't screwing things up?
I mean, the genius who makes things work at at Tesla.
You know, people like, oh, if Elon Musk left, what's left?

(01:52:23):
Or if I don't all you know, like the Bill
Gates or or whatever whoever Colonel standards. There's there are
faces so identified with brands that you know, people think, oh,
Ken Apple survive without Tim Cook like you know, So
when you're so identified, you want to when someone leaves,

(01:52:45):
you want to have them be the the the face
of the brand that reassures people things will be fine.
There's a new pilot and it's good and we're okay.
And I also think they want to convey they that
he is really successful at his job and show people
so that evince ever and I don't. I think I

(01:53:06):
think we're past it. But he's surprised me before you're
past the idea that like things are bad and because
there isn't leadership, I think they really want to create
the impression that there is. So I think there's a
you know, the ego driving it. But even more so,
we just need to have a face of the brand
that that assures the people who don't watch that Hey,
there's this air apparent to vins Man, the son of

(01:53:27):
law and former old champion, and look at him, he
knows what he's doing. He's at the helm again.

Speaker 3 (01:53:32):
Now aren't you just setting this up for you? Got
to do this again down the road if something goes
wrong with lu Fact, because again I thought they weathered
the storm. I don't really, you know, like sponsors have
been drown anymore. We're out of here.

Speaker 1 (01:53:45):
But then they will. But I mean if if if
Rock and Branga Wertz pull a power play, then Rock
would be the face of the brand and Gortz would
standing us from his cold pilot. I mean, I'll just shift,
We'll just pivot. Yeah, okay, yeah, oh, Leve's gone. Yeah.
We had a great run. You're like what you can
hear the speech out like with NFL, like with NFL teams.
This coach took us to the playoffs, took us to
the super Bowl one year. Two years ago, we won

(01:54:06):
the super Bowl. But you know, sometimes you just got
to get new creative ideas and and we'll move on.

Speaker 3 (01:54:12):
Yeah yeah, not in this town, hopefully soon.

Speaker 1 (01:54:15):
Yeah, not coaching change, just super.

Speaker 3 (01:54:19):
Bowl No, no, no, gosh no, yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:54:21):
We got a good one. How's that we got? We're
what five five days a way now from seeing uh
JJ play j Mack?

Speaker 6 (01:54:27):
What?

Speaker 1 (01:54:28):
What? What? What's this?

Speaker 3 (01:54:29):
What?

Speaker 1 (01:54:29):
Are going to settle on? For his nickname?

Speaker 3 (01:54:30):
So he is just JJ, and it's because Justin Jefferson
wants to go by it, like when he showed up.
He immediately told McCarthy asked, somebody wants to be good.
He goes by jets cool. Yep, I don't. I don't
know who the hell calls him jets other than like
super fans trying too hard his teammates. Dude, that's fine,
but yeah, the fans has really caught on with it
for the most part. You're going to hear a lot

(01:54:53):
of j j JJ Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
Yeah, well for sure. Yeah, so uh J square, J square?
How's he gonna I hear? I have I paid attention
a little bit to his performances and in practices, and
it was like, he is going to be the next
great thing, and like, uh oh he our defense? Is
our defense that good? Or is he that shaky? What

(01:55:15):
do you think is going on?

Speaker 3 (01:55:16):
Or is it a great question? Yeah? I mean I
do think our defense is going to be very good.
You know, there's some questions in the secondary a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:55:23):
But we're talking about the Minnesota Vikings. By the way,
we should say that for people. Yeah, you can fast
forward two minutes, right.

Speaker 3 (01:55:30):
And if you've been listing for any length of time,
you should not be suppressed. But yeah, I think that's
the big question. I really do think it's probably a
lot of it is just how good the defense is.
And you know, at this time of year you see
it quite a bit where the defense just has the
advantage that the offenser. It takes time for them to
get in sync and so even some you know, just

(01:55:51):
proven Hall of Fame level quarterbacks may have some off
times in practice at this time of year. I think,
you know, we'll get a much better feel forward with
that initial preseason game and then yeah, that's it. Unfortunately,
I think for JJ, I get it, but you know,
we're just as a selfish fan wanting to see him play.
I think we'll probably have to wait until the regular season.

Speaker 1 (01:56:09):
Then I'm yeah, I'm I'm excited to see how how
this goes is here. Yeah yeah, speaking of which, I
you know, like we have the Netflix Quarterback series and
Kirk Cousin part of it, and you have ESPN doing
that kind of thing. I think that's part of the
inspiration too of w BN real if we go back
to that for a moment, is.

Speaker 3 (01:56:26):
Okay the same company, it's it's Peyton Manning's company that
is behind WWE Ounrel who also does the Quarterbacks.

Speaker 1 (01:56:32):
Series and in The inspiration for Doughby is we want
to be in the same realm as the NFL. We
want to produce that kind of content and we and
I do think part of it too is we want
people to respect what we do. Yeah, and it comes
at you know, it comes at a at a price,
you know, Randy, Randy Orton talked about it. You know
about the word mystique. You know, it's I don't like
using the ka anymore because it's just it's almost it's

(01:56:53):
almost always misused and people who use it don't actually
very often show even a base a fundamental understanding of
the solution of protecting the business and all of that.
Like Grandy Oran say, this is a kid people asked,
is it real? Is it real? That tells you people knew,
you know what I mean, Like when he was a
little kid forty years ago, people were asking is it real?
Is it real? And you know, Jason, you know the

(01:57:16):
sports casts when the AWA run a big show, they'd
smirk and kind of plug their nose a bit and
laugh and giggle. And if you go back to The
Fall Guy's book about the early twentieth century of wrestling,
like there's all kinds of examples in the fifties of
newspapers and before and after mocking pro wrestling like you know,
it's not a sport and we know, you know, in
their old style writing. I mean, people have known this

(01:57:39):
idea that like every this new generation of fans thinks
we're the only ones whoever, whoever were savvy enough to
know it was fake. It's like, come on, seventy five
years ago, newspapers were saying it was fake. It wasn't
covered in sports sections, it wasn't covered on the news,
wasn't covered by it. It's like, it's so naive to
think k fabe is dead, so that means all the
rules are off. K fabe has always been dead. Nobody
people thought it was real since nineteen twenty seven or
nineteen thirty sive because I have polls to back that up.

(01:58:01):
I don't really, but that's probably not too far off.

Speaker 3 (01:58:03):
So and they still do that by though the newscasters.
It's even I want to say, balancing around that day
was probably CNN wat chat because I was just bounced
around trying to follow that the bench story, and there's
some of that going on where I've got to let
you know that I know it's not real like, Okay,
I'm here, thanks for being like that. That's awesome, And

(01:58:24):
it seems like there's a You will get some people
that just trade creat it pretty you know, like a
normal person would, but you'll get what I just described.
And then the other is that they got to act
way too excited about everything, and I go, oh my god,
please stop. I don't know what's worth.

Speaker 1 (01:58:43):
So with this show, Orton talks about mystique, and I
think that's the key. It's not k fabe, it's mystique.
The mystique gets there's still things that were protected even
with fans thinking we know, it's like, well, yeah, if
you sit down and read a book about something that
happened three or twenty years ago, yeah, you get a
real inside story. If you listen to indiependent podcasts, yeah

(01:59:04):
you get a real inside story. If you listen to
Jericho Interview Wrestlers, you get the inside story. And that
it's like the current has been pulled back in that way.
But have you ever had a WWE stamped logo on
a series that shows you can relatively contemporaneous happenings in
a way that completely contradicts the on air mystique that

(01:59:27):
somebody like Rhea Ripley, for instance, had or Chelsea Green
just joshing around about, Oh, it's just it's really fun
play it's throw and you know that's that's where Randy
is like, you know, he says, you know, it's like
old school in it, But I don't. I don't think
it's like I think when you frame something as old
school and new school, there's a baked in default stance
that if you are for what is being what falls

(01:59:48):
under the old school categorization, that you're behind the times
and you're you're resistant to inevitable change. And so I
don't like that framing. I think there's the no mistique approach,
and there's a mistake, a roach, and you the the
mystique approach was the predominant history of pro wrestling, even

(02:00:08):
with tons of skepticism in the public and even amongst
their fan base. But it was a lot more enjoyable
when people kept a straight face and protected aspects of
it that that made it more mysterious. That's the word mystique.
Do to b is like, yeah, but then how does
a cosky get TV time? If we protect the mystique?
How does Paul Eveckett to be the star of the show.
If we worry about mystique. I think there are the

(02:00:29):
motivations are wrong. They want to be accepted by people
who don't make a difference to their bottom line, which
is media people, the old thing of we deserve Amy's.
It's like there's there's this desire for what they do
to get recognized more, but it comes at the expense.
I think of what is a better fan experience, which
is kind of keeping some things still we know sort

(02:00:50):
of how that works, But do we really like this?
I talked I talked about this Friday. I think the
big least Friday in the SmackDown post that I did
a big really went into this on that show, and
a little bit on the row postal money too, the
way Kellor Poshos, but Friday, especially when The biggest takeaway
that I have from this is fans now look at
wrestlers as having almost no agency. They are being told

(02:01:14):
mid match through a mic, through a referee what to
do and not do, And I just don't know that
fans need to be watching matches with that Like it's
one thing to read about it or hear about it,
but to like literally see it happening on a match
you watched, and how it happens with the people involved
in it communicating it. I think it just takes now.

(02:01:34):
The wrestlers are like rockstars who are being told like
imagine if you like you really into a band and
then there's a documentary it's like, oh, yeah, there's this
this guy in the back with no charisma telling a
guy through a headset which way to turn to the
audience and Wendy yell and when to put fingers up
and salute the crowd. It's like, well, I don't want
to watch a rock star who's just a who's a
puppet on strings? Right, and and you know, like like

(02:01:57):
yes for sure, And I don't think wrestlers want to
be seen as boy bands. And you know a perfect example.
This makes wrestlers out to be boy band members who
were recruited for their looks and and and you know
they their Christmas but not actually being rock stars. And
it's it's that is the price you pay so that
Paul Avec and Bruce Pritcherck can be the rock stars.
And they want to be the rock stars. No granted,

(02:02:19):
what they do is amazing and unreal shows it. I
mean that gorilla position, the booking, the production. You know,
Kevin Dunn's like, we're Monday night Football. He'd watch Monday
Football while I was on the air and talked to
Vince about, Oh god, we're way better than them. Look
at that, we do that better. They had a huge
ego about what they did. But you know what, Duddy
is amazing From a production standpoint, absolutely, they're great, but

(02:02:41):
they're insecure about the fact that people, not enough people
know how great they are in granular detail. And now
it's coming at the expense of the wrestlers being the
rock stars, and I think that is shortsighted and and
comes with a price, Like a lot of other things
we've talked about on today's show.

Speaker 3 (02:02:55):
Do you think this is a little bit off topic,
but do you think that this will be something that
the w folks like Tony Kahan may watch and, oh
there's something we should probably be doing differently. They might
actually learn from this.

Speaker 1 (02:03:08):
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's in a way, it's giving away
your trade secrets.

Speaker 3 (02:03:11):
Yeah yeah, I mean it's not you get some of
it just because Nactually people are gonna you know, there's
people in aw that have worked for WWE before obviously,
but yeah, but yeah, I think it could be interesting
on that level. Yeah, the series itself, it was I
didn't mind at all Ed Cosky finally getting some camera time.
I've always kind of felt I was hoping when Vince

(02:03:33):
left that there would be some people that would get
a little more credit than they received before, because it
was always like Vince with the genius, who could do everything.
And it's like, of course there's some people giving him
some great ideas that are getting no credit for it,
and you know it's part of the job. But you know,
I don't I don't know enough about Ed Cosky enough
like is he lobbying for this? Do you want this?

(02:03:55):
But you know, it's just just knowing how long he's
been there to like I, I don't even know if
I could have picked him out of a lineup before
the show, And that to me is crazy that you know,
there's other people like Bruce Richard maybe because the podcaster
would have you, and he's also a really good storyteller
and so he's going to get featured on the A
and E Network shows quite a bit and all of that.
But then there's you know, Cosky maybe he just kept

(02:04:16):
a low profile by design. I don't know, but yeah,
I thought the idea. I'm not surprised forgetting and I
do wonder though it could it end up being something
down the road like the press conferences were. Well, it
made sense before, but maybe we need to pull back.

(02:04:36):
I could see that happening somewhere down the road.

Speaker 1 (02:04:38):
Yeah, and I hope it does. I mean, all toothpased
out of the tube. Who cares? Just start the next
group of wrestlers can have mistique the next wrestler who
turns and you think it's there's something real behind it.
You can make it more real, like Ranus. I think
there's a large number of fans out there who are
very curious and they want to know behind the scenes
and how we do what we do and make it
look so effortless. My jobs go out there in that
ring gets you to kind of suspend your disbelief and

(02:05:00):
make you believe that what you're in, what you're seeing,
that there's real emotions behind it, and you know and
that you know. I disagree with him framing it as
the old school in me doesn't love it, but I
had to learn over the years you got to change
with the times, No, you don't. Sometimes you got to
resist bad ideas from people who don't understand how valuable
mystique is and understand what the motivations are for pulling
the curtain back. In this granular context, again, a wrestler

(02:05:23):
writing a book years later. The audience is small reading
a book, people know. But you're showing the audience right
now in a way where I'm watching SummerSlam and I'm
thinking not about wrestler's as rock stars, but I'm thinking, Oh,
did the referee just tell that wrestler what to do? Like,
do you really want fans watching wrestling now going?

Speaker 3 (02:05:41):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:05:42):
I wonder if that was a spot that the referee
told them to do or not do. Oh, I see
that camera angle was there because they knew ahead of
time they needed to be in that exact spot to
do it. They are training their viewers to watch wrestling
in a way that is disengaging. It is fascinating in
the short run, but it is not. It is not

(02:06:03):
the foundation that you want people the lens through which
you want people watching wrestling regularly. Over time, I think
they're gonna be They're gonna be fascinated and now less interested.

Speaker 9 (02:06:16):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of the Seven Star podcast, the
new Ongoing Torch show covering the world of New Japan
pro wrestling. We'll drop new episodes as major shows and
noteworthy events dictate.

Speaker 3 (02:06:28):
And I'm Chris Lansdowe.

Speaker 10 (02:06:30):
Join us as we cover the ever changing landscape of
New Japan as they navigate an era with no lack
of talent, but a real need to create some new stars.
You can stream the new Seven Stop podcasts now from
Pro Wrestling Talk.

Speaker 3 (02:06:52):
I have no anybody else you can put combine the
two things, but it's funny. I just got a comment
in my from a readers. I just watched on Tuesday
afternoon the female ref with the terrible posture. I don't
even know who the hell that is is calling the
entire match for the ladies, and she's even louder than
seeing is. I mean, that's something that people are picking

(02:07:13):
up on too. I am somebody that it's weird. Like
there was just a conversation like Johnny fair Play when
he's on My Purpose and Boom show. He will talk
about he's a big stickler for playing the herd camera
and somebody asked a question about and it does it
have to be that way just because WWE does, It
doesn't have to be that way, Like, well, you know,
there's other companies that have taken a different approach. I'm
somebody that when I watch the show, and maybe I'm

(02:07:35):
in the minority of this, I didn't recognize that that
was happening with ww I just was when I was
a fan and just not doing this and just kind
of watching the show never cross my mind. But now
that they're doing a show like this, not that you
know that they're pointing that part out, but yeah, there
are going to be things that people were just being

(02:07:55):
fans and watching the matches play out, but now, yeah,
they're going to start to think about these other things
because they've maned those to it.

Speaker 1 (02:08:02):
Yeah. I mean I can watch a magic show and
be enthralled, but if I watch a a if I
am watching a magic show every week on TV for years,
but there's a documentary telling me, if you don't get
distracted by this, but you look over here, you'll see
what's happening. That'll that'll show you how this thing is done,
but how they distracted you. I'm completely watching every match

(02:08:24):
show differently from then on.

Speaker 3 (02:08:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:08:26):
Absolutely, yeah, and that's what they're doing. It's just like
wrestling needs that mystique and I don't like Randy Orton
thrown in the towel and framing it as all I
got to change with the times. No, you don't. If
somebody comes up with the idea of let's play the
you know what radies are down for the NFL, let's
play with two footballs. You know, I got to change
with the times. No, you freaking don't. That's stupid. You know, like,
you can say something a stupid and counterproductive if it is.

(02:08:47):
You don't need to resign yourself to bad ideas that
have never been done before by smarter people in the
past because it's an idea that hasn't been done before,
and you think, because it's framed as evolving with the times,
that you have to cave into a bad idea. There's
a lot of things that are done by bad bookers
who think they're geniuses who don't understand. Dumb people who
got fired suggested that behind the scenes. Dumb people who

(02:09:09):
didn't nderstand the business suggested it behind the scenes and
got fired, or they stopped getting invited to the meetings
because they were dumb ideas and now you just happen
to be getting them on television. That doesn't make you
a genius. It makes you someone who's uninformed with too
much power.

Speaker 3 (02:09:24):
Right, right do you think though, like Biggest for years,
it was my god, if if k fame's completely broken
the business. I mean that was the belief within the industry,
even though you know, again people knew, but if they
let the cat out of the bag like Vins did
when he went to court, my god, you know the
business is over. Obviously didn't end.

Speaker 1 (02:09:43):
So that's that's so blown out of part. That meant nothing.
Everybody knew all along. Wrestling matches, all comes are pretty determined.
Vince saying it was con was not even confirming. It
was just saying something everybody knew. The shocking part is
that someone said it. It wasn't what he said, it's
that he said it.

Speaker 3 (02:09:58):
Back far enough forget bench you go back. And that
was the belief always. You know, boy, you gotta protect us,
and you've got it. We've but there might be people
didn't know, but we got to protect it and that
didn't matter.

Speaker 1 (02:10:09):
And if you had lied to your wife for ten
fifteen years, you would want to protect it too, because
she's going to be really mad at you from its
real all along Bruno and all that. So I think
they were, yeah, there's we're in a different world in
that sense there, So I.

Speaker 3 (02:10:24):
Guess what I'm trying to Can this bring in a
different fan though that like, no, no, this is fasciinated,
Not that it's going to be in massive numbers or
anything like that, but I think there, you know, everybody's different.
You might find some people that are a little more intrigued,
but oh, this is quite the operation they put Peo
pulled in for.

Speaker 1 (02:10:41):
Two or three weeks. Sure, fair enough? No, No, I
mean I do. I just there's nothing about knowing more
about how wrestling works. It's going to make somebody watching
now watch more often, or somebody who's never watched now
get addicted to it and watch forever or watched for
a long time. I don't believe that. I mean, it's subjective.
I can't prove it, but no, I think wrestling, I
I think they're less likely to enjoy wrestling that that

(02:11:02):
is pulling up the curtain aside as openly, granularly and
in real time as they are. I think I think
it takes something away. I don't think anyone's more likely
to watch an ongoing magic show if they're telling you
all the tricks are done. I think you're more likely
to why. I will watch a documentary once, but I'm
not gonna watch every week. So you take that mystique away,

(02:11:23):
it becomes less interesting. I don't on the pit. I'm
gonna be less interested in the series if I find
out Noah Wiley hates three of the actors that he
has to pretend he likes on the show. That makes
it less enjoyable for me. Sure, you know, like I
don't like that in Party of Five everybody hated the
oldest brother because he was just a jerk. Like I
don't want to like if I knew that I was watching
the show and make me enjoy the show less. You know,

(02:11:45):
Scott Wilf didn't like whatever the guy's name was. I
don't want to know that, And I don't like that.
I know Karen Grassley was resentful of Michael Lennon because
she he would didn't work for her to get a
raise and get a fair pay during the show series
Oh on Michael Land and I love his debt. His
character is a role model for fathers, and frankly for Christians,
because he was like, as a I'm just so dated looking,
but I grew up on the show, he was like

(02:12:05):
this great dad, he went to church, but he was
also for he was anti racist at a time when
it was so acceptable to drop the N word and
they was like for giving the Native Americans or land.
But it was like he was this liberal Christian and
great role model. But I don't want to know that
he was not good to Karen Grassley, his wife on
the show when it came to pay. So my point
is like it's fascinating, but don't volunteer all that information

(02:12:30):
in real time while you're trying to tell these stories.
So that rock thing was so dumb that dropped on Netflix,
And so then you look for what's the Is it
motivation to create programming to make more money that has
a negative consequence, but you're just thinking about quarterly returns
and keeping your partner happy. Is it the ego stroke
of becoming a star, or is it the mistaken belief
of evolution rather than just doing something that is a

(02:12:51):
bad idea and there's no need for evolution. In fact,
it's time to dial it back and create that mystique again.

Speaker 3 (02:13:00):
Yeah, interesting, it's I mean, there's a stow like this
or it's gonna be a lot to take away from it,
and it's not going away. I mean they did say
we're getting more episodes next week and.

Speaker 1 (02:13:10):
You did not know this. You did not know this, Chase.
But my email in front of me is perfect what
you just said. Neil says, Wait, I totally agree with
you about Seth Rollins and the injury and it's just
dumb and it annoyed me over Summer Slime weekend. But
Seth had a like about people stopping him cashing in
the brief. Yet there's a type out there, so maybe
that's how they get to that. Maybe it's an angle

(02:13:31):
for unreal, still dumb, but maybe it's an angle keep
up the classwork kind of going. So what I extracted
from that is, do we think that this fake knee
injury wasn't the arc from Senites made event to SummerSlam
because they thought it was a good story, but because
they thought they can get rich content behind the scenes.

(02:13:53):
For doubt be unreal and now the tail is waking
the dog. The documentary exposing on how things are done
is actually creating things that wouldn't have been done if
not for trying to create content for the Pull the
Curtain Back docuseries.

Speaker 3 (02:14:08):
If they go interacting their fools, I mean, seriously, your
first priority should be like making the best wrestling television
shows and storylines. You can not Oh, this will make
for good documentary, I'll get it for the Netflix series. Now,
that would be foolish. That'd be insane. I can't say
that it's not happening, but it would be insane.

Speaker 1 (02:14:29):
But I'm not ruling out that they already did that
with Chris Park on a smaller degree, Like let's pretend
let's dress him up by saying he's the matches running along,
so we got get a little footage here for the show.

Speaker 3 (02:14:41):
Yeah. Maybe it just go back to my gosh, it's
they looked at the Netflix premieeres like this mega thing
and gosh, if you have time to do that, like
what are we doing here, guys.

Speaker 1 (02:14:53):
In the Chris Park thing? If you buy into my
notion that maybe they decided to create that content they
kind of knew would make for good TV that didn't
affect the onn our product at all. Sator rollins with
a face. Let's let's fake them out. Let's let's and
then rest. You know, the resentment in the locker room,
which can be overrated, sometimes can be underrated, underestimated. He's
walking around on crutches, you know, that's crusted. Oh what's
people in doubt to be what's going on? Always on crutches?

(02:15:14):
Seems like you might be hurt. I'm a little suspicious.
I don't know, you know, and people like whatever, you know,
they just know it's they're there to collect their paycheck,
do their thing. And sometimes, you know, like we learned
with the Bret Hart documentary, it's sometimes there's stuff going
on that you just don't know when you're not told,
and it's better off if you don't know, so you
don't get blamed for leaking it.

Speaker 3 (02:15:35):
Yeah, and I I know, like there's the fear that
if you start working in the locker room, then naturally
the locker room, it's going to create distrust and all
that to that. I have reached your point though, where
it's like, okay, well then all of you got the
f up. We wouldn't have to go to these lengths.
I mean, this story got out to John Pollock somehow,
so one of you leak that. Obviously I don't be

(02:15:58):
grudged on for reporting it all, but I'm just saying, like, hey,
my god, you know it's you guys want to be
and all it takes is one of you, and we
have to resort to things like that if we want
to pull off a big storyline, because otherwise you guys
are going to turn around and put it out there
right away because you can't help yourselves.

Speaker 1 (02:16:16):
Yeah, all right, Jason, anything else you want to bring
up before we shift to the VP exclusive after show
where we talk about ul coke and to wrap things.

Speaker 3 (02:16:24):
Up sure really quickly. I will say it's going to be.
You know, it's kind of out there that there's been
rumblings that TNA could end up going to the CW,
and I know the talk that people are The night
that people are pointing to is Saturday. I'll just say
the only thing I can say on that is I've

(02:16:44):
heard the rumors, but I've heard Wednesday. Now it could
just be both of those nights or AW programming nights,
and so it might be while somebody heard they're running
against AW and so they thought it was this night,
but it's actually that I have no idea but I
do think it's interesting. Nonetheless, whether it happens or not,
there's a lot of buzz about it, and I think

(02:17:05):
it's worth keeping an eye on that because TENA has
been in their president that Carlos Silva has made it
clear they're in the hunt now looking for something. And boy,
if if you're ww A and you're not, you're personally
not running against AW. But either way, if it's Wednesday
or Saturday, let's AW is going to move nights to

(02:17:26):
Thursday for collision, They're they're probably going to be running
ahead to head if this actually does happen. So yeah,
just something to keep an eye on, not just saying
it's like definitively happening, but there's a lot of buzz
about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:17:36):
Interesting, interesting, all right, very good. We'll wrap up on
that note. VIP members and dot net members stay tuned though,
because Jason and I are going to talk about whether
Hercules Urnette is going to end Hulk Coogan's tuttle reign
at the house show we're attending without cameras present. If
you're not a VIP member or dot net member, then
you can become one. Go to PW Membership dot net

(02:17:56):
for information on joining Jason's website, and if you interested
in VP membership to PW Torch, go to PW torch
dot com slash go VIP but here we go VIP
members dot net members. Let's roll right into our discussion
on Hulk Hogan in the mid eighties to early nineties,
with a focus on who the best opponents were of

(02:18:18):
his during that era when it was the house show
touring era when pay per views were around but not
every month, and they had the formula just like Brunoso
Martino and Bob Ecklund had before him as a top
babyface in the WWF. And we talk about the our
favorite send and our least favorites among those who were
chosen to be opposite of Hulk Hogan at house shows.

(02:18:57):
Invite you to email the show with feedback or quest comments.
That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at petwtorch dot com.
That's Wadkeller Podcast at PW torch dot com. Also welcome
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Speaker 3 (02:19:20):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me
Jason Powell host them the three weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
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(02:19:41):
all your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at
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Speaker 1 (02:19:51):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark make it a daily stop.
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Speaker 11 (02:20:15):
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We love variety and you can expect lots of it
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Speaker 12 (02:21:55):
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