NEW FLAGSHIP: Keller & Powell talk Cena's last opponent possibility, Dynamite's 6th Anniversary, Ricky Saints as NXT Champ, BFG Preview

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Killer
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for the weekly flagship talking
current events in pro wrestling, all.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Right, Jason John Cena pretty big star in the last
twenty five years and we're about two and a half
months away from his final match on his retirement tour.
I do think everyone should hire a lawyer who are
buying tickets to see Sena's last match ever at sentat
it's made event and preemptively say, if this is not
his last match ever, I want my plane, hotel and

(01:44):
ticket revenue or money that I spend refunded to me
because I want to be at John Cena's last match.
You're advertising it as such. They could put a caveat
and go John Cena's last match as an active wrestler
and his retirement tour. They could put an asterisk at
the very bottom of a press release going lots of
wrestlers intend to retire but end up coming back for

(02:05):
other reasons. We cannot guarantee that John Cena won't wrestle
again anyway, but that aside, I just always look.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
At the wording to see it.

Speaker 4 (02:13):
They do, they do.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
They show more certitude than they probably should that this
is the last match. But it is on his retirement
tour obviously, and he is, you know, is retiring, but
he might come out of retirement.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
And so they announced that today, you know, and they also.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Just want to let people know and tickets are going
on sale and all that as part of the process,
but it is it does kind of put a talking
point out there. We see the end of this John
Cena tour, and I kind of want to look big
picture and also want to look specific at how this
comes to an end, but big picture, when you think
about how this year has gone for John Cena, what

(02:47):
are what's one phrase or a few keywords that come
to mind at this stage in terms of assessing how
it's gone compared to how you thought about it. You
know last year when he announced this would be happening.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
Yeah, someone asked me if I would call failure and
I wouldn't go that far. But it's certainly been disappointing.
The heel turn that they were so proud of that
they were patting themselves on the back over that that
will be documented forever aptly unreal. Yeah, it was fun
in the moment, and then we just saw like, all right,

(03:20):
the promos are okay, but this isn't going very well.
You kept waiting for it to get better and it didn't.
And ever since he finally turned babyface again, he seems
like he's motivated, he's been working harder in the ring
and having very good matches, and you know, the promos
are still kind of a mess as far as like
it's all about him and not really putting anyone over.

(03:41):
But yeah, I think at least for the final five dates,
they seem to be in a pretty good place. But
I think we're always going to look back and go, wait,
what if they would have handled this differently? Think of
the different people he could have worked with and how
much fun it could have been had they just taken
a different approach.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
When I look at the list of people that he's wrestled,
everybody was either made already or near retirement, you know,
from from an age standpoint. I mean he was in
the rumble in the chamber, and then it was Cody.
Cody was already made mad even though seen a elexpra
trade as I'm christening him, you know, my ter coup

(04:20):
of Starter. It's like Cody's forty, He's at the tail
end of what is going to be his prime and
John Cena acts like, hey there, you know, like there's
this new kid I'm putting over to lead the dext
generations that come on, and then Randy Orton, who's you
know seeing this generation? Obviously our Truth, who's older than
John Cena despite growing up as a.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Kid admiring him.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Then you had money in the Bank, which was a
tag match again but Logan Paul already made, but you
know he's at least younger than everybody else. And then
Jesus and Cody who are you know, late thirties forty
our truth again?

Speaker 3 (04:49):
See him punk? What is he mid? Middle late? What
is Punk's age right now?

Speaker 4 (04:54):
Punk's age?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, going already's okay, no matter. I wasn't sure to
say mid or late. He's forty six, which is the
second half of your forties. But I don't know we
should call that late. I think like forty seven or
forty eight is like forties, but obviously tail end of
his career. And then Cody Rhoades then Logan Paul again,
Sammy's saying he's, you know, forty ish. Brock Lesner obviously

(05:18):
not You're not putting over some new kid who's gonna
pay dividends later. Although the finish of the match, I
think people are underestimating how much that is meant to
have a The law of transference. Whoever beats him next.
I think that's Sena took a beating within theory, the
idea that whoever beats Lesnar will it'll be more impressive
because of what he did to Sina in theory. And
then aj Styles, who's.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Also in near retirement in near fifties.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
So this has not been John Cena going I'm gonna
spend you know, it's like top like a lot of
big movie stars go, I do one for the money,
one for the art, one for the money, one for
the art. This is just a bunch of you know,
it's like turning on KQRS in town here. It's you know,
it's like I don't know, I don't listen to it.
I assume it's still all just the seventies eighties rock.

Speaker 4 (05:58):
Oh no, no, they changed formats later.

Speaker 3 (06:00):
Not oh did they? What are they doing?

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Yeah, it's kind of a hot pot like some Sometimes
when you turn on the station, it'll like, no, it's
the cake of old. Other times it's like, oh, they
play prints now, And there's just some things. Yeah, a
lot of like known Minnesota artists. I'm hearing a lot,
you know, sol Asylum and things. They're mixing more Minnesota
staples in but yeah, they did change formats within the

(06:25):
last year.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I think, oh well, okay, well I'm not that far
all today. No, but yeah, it feels like a John Cena,
feels like the classic rock station that you would stream
on Spotify. I'll just use something more, more, more well known. Yeah,
just you know, I mean, is Logan Paul the only
guy under thirty five years old that he wrestled this year?

Speaker 4 (06:44):
I believe? So yeah, yeah, I mean you just had
the list. No one stood out to me as being
under thirty five.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, not counting the elimination chamber and the Rumble I'm sure, yeah, yeah,
and collect at some point there. So I mean, this
is not like, hey, I want to come back and
I'm gonna of course, people want to see me against
punk and I gotta do Cody, gotta do Randy. You know,
Samuel is a nice little bonus in there. That was cool,

(07:11):
but he didn't go.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
But who an NXT?

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Can I help it over or let's work out a
program where I'll get that that bron breaker match in
where I can you know, put him over to help
if you guys really believe in him. My choice, like
there's I don't sense there's any And again, this is
not this is just me. For all we know, John
Cena said I want to put over young guys, and
Paula Beck goes, no, we the fans want to see

(07:35):
the best of Tori. So I don't mean to specifically
blame Sina for this, but.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah, I mean, wait, he shows up and tell him
what to do exactly.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yes, but I'm skeptical of that.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yes, and yeah, and and the way it looks from
the outside is that John Cena did not use his
clout to say I want going in when we close
out twenty twenty five to look at one or two
people at least ideally three or four who I gave
a rub to, who had a moment with me that

(08:07):
reshapes how fans look at them and gives them a boost.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
And there is none of that.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
He couldn't even put over Cody Rhodes in his promo
after Cody carried him to the best match he's had
this year. I would argue, I mean, Logan, Paul and
Sammy it was athletic and stuff, but that summerst match
was super dramatic and really good. But you know, as
a baby at whatever I said what I said on that,
but I like it felt so ungracious and so self centered,
and it's.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Part of his pattern.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
I don't look back, look forward, but I philosophically that's
why I think he has a relatively low IQ amongst
the top top acts in this business. And I stand
by that. So this could be him, through negligence or maliciousness,
not giving back, and that leads us to what's left.
We've got aj styles, which is cool. I mean, like
all these matches individually you can justify, it's more when

(08:56):
you step back collectively and look at the macro. Wait
a second, where is he leaving them better off? Because
that's what he says he wants to do. And it's
not like ratings are up on and Netflix went crazy
with their numbers this year. They're disappointing. You know, there's
a boost here and there when he's on shows, but
other things are on those shows. Sometimes you're going, well,
maybe it was that attendances. I haven't seen any any

(09:17):
trend that goes, oh yeah, Seene has totally helped turn
things around for Dotamine an area of weakness. It seems
like no, if anything, he might be delaying a drop
due to other things going on, So maybe he's helped
help them sustain a good level. I don't want to
say he hasn't contributed in that way because obviously people
going to shows who want to see Seen up for
the last time and buy his merch, maybe attendants are
even lower without him. But he is not has not

(09:39):
been an impetus for this boom period that, you know,
taking things to a whole other level in any metric
other than his own merch sales. So I just look
at center to main event as like the last chance
for him to really do something, and I don't have
a lot of faith that's going to happen. I mean,
if it's if Gunther goes fifty to fifty was seen,

(09:59):
it makes them look weak compared to Lesner, So you
know Seena's damaged goods. If it's Drew McIntyre, I guess
Drew could beat Seena, but again seen his damage goods
because of Lesner, and Drew, you know, came up short
against Cody. So I don't know, you know, I don't know.
I just I'm still hoping that that there is a

(10:20):
bron breaker or a dominicant mysterio or a call it
from NXT.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Jason for Senate's main event.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
But it's NBC and it's all this fanfair, So they're
not going to put somebody who no one's ever heard
of on that show.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
It's not NBC anymore. I'm sorry. Yeah, but yeah, I
mean it's it's.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
Like the fan fair, and I knew that, but the
fanfare around the start, it's made of my brand. His
last match, They're not going to put him against Oba
Fami or Trick Williams.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
Yeah, it'd be fun they did, but yeah, right, yeah,
and boy I wanted it to be Gunter. It made
sense Gunter again retired Goldberg on Saturday Night's Man Event.
Can he turn around and do the same to John
see a little bit of nice feather in his cap?
But Brockard he beat Scena. They took if Seena is
gonna lose his last match, they just kind of took

(11:09):
some of the piss out of it by having Rock
go over and so now it's just you know, going
through beats him. Okay, it's still you know, you can.
It's gonna look nice on a graphic and when they
run through credentials and things like that on the side
of the screen. But it's not going to pack the
punch that it should have. It's still gonna mean something
because it is seen his last match, But I don't
know if it's him. I have no idea who it's

(11:32):
going to be. And we have five dates left, we
know one opponent, we don't know if he's working either
one of the raw shows Boston and MSG. In of yeah,
if he's gonna have a match, if he's just going
to going to appear, I certainly assume he will a
Survivor Series, But you know, is it going to be
an elimination match? Probably not, they don't do many of those.
But who is it? And we're kind of just getting

(11:52):
to that point now, and I don't Yeah, I wish
it were him putting over Breaker Bronson Reid, and but
I don't think it's gonna happen.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
So we have there's uh MSG Survivor series are like
the too big, the two places where I most expect
there to be a match in Boston.

Speaker 4 (12:13):
I mean, you know, just because of him being from there,
I would think we should get matches on all of
these shows. But I don't know.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, so let's if it's if it's fine, I'm I'm
focused on the final match because I'm like, can he
beat somebody and go out and get half this like
this happy ending, or can he lose to somebody who
fans will be happy he lost to but but see
it like so I put up I'll go jump to
this now. I put up a poll on po Torch today.

(12:41):
We don't have a ton of votes yet, but goon
Thro and Drew McIntyre are the top vote getters for
who people want to see him wrestle uh Dominic Masterio
in third place, bron Breaker, and see him punk fourth
seem Punk rematch. If he didn't see him punking and
scene again, I could see them telling a story and
doing that scene. Punk gets a win and fans are happy.
They hug and Seena raises Punk's arm. You're not putting

(13:03):
over a new young Turk when you do that, but
it's a feel good finish. You could also do a
rematch with Cody. You know, Cody goes hey, you should
go out with the toititle match of great. If you win,
you still get to But of course that was a
whole heel thing, you know, so Sna wins. How selfish
of him to not be a defending champion and break
the lineage of the belt. It's hard, based on how
he framed things earlier this year to have seen a

(13:23):
get a title match to close things out. If it
was seth and he won, that doesn't help anybody. And
he's also retiring a belt that already has a credibility gap.
So I just when I look at the lay of
the land for the final match, and we'll backtrack and
look at some other options that maybe can fit in
between here and there. But the symbolically, what is that

(13:45):
feel good match? Is that another Logan Paul match where
he just wins clean?

Speaker 3 (13:49):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (13:50):
It has Elle Knight turned heel by then, and you
give Ellie Knight the rub for being the last guy.
Like the Dominic thing is interesting. People are thinking, oh
that that's a you know even if you want, well, yes,
exactly like it could backfire on Cena. But because I'm
gonna say, the fans with delight in seeing dom do

(14:10):
his trickery against John Cena. But it also could be
I guess Dominic's turn, you know, and maybe that would
be sena go and see all you.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
Cynical skeptics out there.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
The pundit Tree thought I wasn't going to give back,
and I wrestled Dominic and yes I beat him, but
he learned a lesson and it was adult, you know,
not a double term, but like a dominic. You know,
Dominic officially turns and all that. I mean, maybe they're
gonna surprise us in some way where it kind of
works out. But I don't see anyone else on the
on the like obvious radar, because I just don't think

(14:42):
you can move Trick or Oba into that spot or
Animost from NXT and and get anything out of it.
But it shouldn't just be him beating you know, Ethan Page, like,
I mean, it's got to be a big deal who
he wrestles.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
Last, right, and and Oba having just dropped that NXT championship,
if they wanted to bring him up and start building
him up, think you could make it work if the
plan was for Oba to get that big win overseen it,
I'm I mean basically seeing his believing with that one though,
uh I boy, I mean, I'm just looking through the

(15:13):
roster here and nobody's like jumping out. I would say
one thing maybe to keep an eye on. And then
this isn't even the final match, it's for uh San Diego.
If ray Masterio's back by then do we have another
legend versus legend match race on Town? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (15:29):
I mean, I mean it's a I don't want to
endorse it because it's a following the pattern of you know,
a classic rock station instead of putting new people over.
But obviously you know it would it would be special.
It makes sense given the setting and and and the
history of both wrestlers.

Speaker 4 (15:45):
So Dom got involved in that that sets up seeing
this next match a couple of weeks later. It's it's
pot I'm just throwing out that.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
I do not I do not mind that.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
I think that there's I mean, basically, even if you
look and go, I don't know, and you're like, wait,
that's actually the number one thing I've heard that makes sense,
Like nothing else is. So nothing else doesn't have things
that feel sort of disqualifying, like we don't want to
see another Orton match. Adam Copland's not available to come back.
You know, Batista's not going to come back. So and

(16:14):
if if it was, if it actually if it was
on NBC, you could and Dwayne Johnson, we didn't know
what we know about kind of what's going on with him?
You could imagine like, oh yeah, we're gonna go out big,
We're gonna set a big ratings record broadcast tv pcock
The Rock Sena and that was our top vote getter
when we ran the poll in early June. You know
who people want to see seen it against before the
year ended was The Rock And I don't think that's
gonna happen.

Speaker 4 (16:35):
No.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
So so looking at between the AJ Styles match and
the Science main event match, there's a chance for two, three,
four more matches. How many how many dates are there?

Speaker 4 (16:46):
We had five total, and with the AJ matches one
of them.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yep, so there's four other there's literally maximum for other
possible opponents. But it's unlikely he rustles all four of
those matches, right.

Speaker 4 (17:01):
Well, Like I say, with him, one of those dates,
we have two raw dates in there, and one is Boston,
one is MSG, so they're only a week apart. Though
you would yeah, I mean, I would think he would
want to work in both markets rather than just do
a farewell promo in Boston. They already host the Boston

(17:24):
fan once by having that show in Boston where you
know they bought tickets thinking he was going to be
there and he wasn't even there, so I would hope
that they at least get a match.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah, well, I know, I mean, stay tuned. Let us
know what you think. Weight Color Podcast at gmail dot com.
Give us some feedback if if they're scenarios you'd like
to see.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
I mean, I you know, and I really don't want
him avenging the Brock loss. I hope that's not like
if that's the one thing he did where he like
elevated somebody. Not that Brock needs a whole lot of elevation,
but I'm just saying you've built him up. Let someone
else be that slays that dragon.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, that's got one vote on our pull so far
as broclosing, very match.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
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All right, let's pause and introduce ourselves here and then

(18:49):
we'll get onto other topics here. This is a wayde
Keller Pro Wrestling podcast, the Tuesday Flightship edition on September thirtieth,
twenty twenty five. I'm Way Keller hosts the sho Show, Editor, publisher,
founder of Pro Wrestling Torch, which started as and continues
as a paper copy print postal delivery newsletter every week,
and also the website pw torch dot com. Twenty five

(19:11):
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(19:41):
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Speaker 3 (19:52):
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Speaker 1 (19:53):
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Progressing Boom podcast.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
He joins me every.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Roughly every three weeks on average here on the flagship
and we're a little bit off schedule. We went a
little early and didn't take an extra week off.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
But you blame Kelly Wills.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yes, oh, I'm all for blaming Kelly. So yeah, Jason, welcome,
Welcome back to gholst Here, good.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
Dab here, always good to be here with.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
So Coroka presoft for now is the highest paid NHL
player currently and also of all time. News just broke
this morning. We are excited about it, but a little
nervous about ho much is getting paid and how much
that limits us to sign other for agents and all
of that. But there's some pretty good young players coming
up through through the pipeline, not not known you know

(21:18):
for sure commodities, but prospects.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
I mean, I think there's a big enough sports story
to get your quick take on it.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
I'm very happy. I was. I was getting very nervous
when he turned down a deal that would have made
him the highest paid player, Like, oh, no, you know,
what does he does he want out? Is he looking?
There was thought that maybe he wants to go to
the Rangers because he has some frank on that team,
and but yeah, I mean he just kind of kept
it cool. He didn't say much, but he just all
along he was kind of making a team like it's

(21:45):
going to get done, and so you just kind of
hope that that's that he wasn't fibbing and they got
it done. And I mean, yeah, eight years a long time,
I think here in Minnesota for those who don't know,
we had we just finished paying and suit her and
Zach Brezi's contract. Well, I believe it or not, we
haven't completely but like the big hit is finally over.

(22:08):
And so that's why I think there's going to be
some concern like, Okay, this is great now, but in
four years are we going to regret this? And is
he going to be is going to He's had some
issues staying healthy. There's that issue too.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
We haven't made it up the fort one of the
playoffs in ten years. Yeah, and it's not been a
while player all that time, no.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
And he's also had some injuries that kind of derailed
the certain seasons when it comes to the playoffs and
just him not even if he's playing, he hasn't been
one hundred percent. But last year I thought he really
came on strong in the playoffs and so yeah, I'm
happy it Okay, let's say it just doesn't work out.
At least we find out you know, we know now

(22:48):
we don't have to spend the rest of our years
going what would have happen if we just could have
resigned to prisos.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
I know, yep, Hey, I'm no, I'm I'm happy.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
I mean it just you want to drive to downtown
Saint Paul and see his you know, image on the
on the big mural, and and it's going to be
that way for you know, eight years, barring unforeseen circumstances,
because he's got a trade clause and he really loves
it here and uh yeah, I mean the team's identity
is wrapped up in him, and they're with this contract
comes a big responsibility. And as a twenty to twenty

(23:18):
eight year old star player who was you know, leading
contender to be the best player in the league last
year before he got hurt, you know, he's in his prime,
and you know what, if to get him to get
the next four or five years of him in his
prime means you have to have a couple of years
where he's overpaid and not in his prime.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
That might be you know, you might have to just
deal with that.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
Or maybe he's an extra Vegkin and he's still going, Yeah,
you just never know. He did site, you know, guy's
like a Vechkin. And Coctor with somebody else said just
you know, stayed with their one team all their career
and wanting to you know, thinking that's pretty cool, and
I did. I don't remember who the player was, but
there was a fun quote about, yeah, we don't use
the team credit card anymore, we just used carills.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, yes, yes, well you know Connor McGregor.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
I mean, there's did Brett did Brett Hall ever? Did
he end up playing like for Chicago at the end
or something crazy?

Speaker 4 (24:09):
He did go multiple places? I don't Was he with
the Stars maybe for a while. I can't, but yeah,
I don't remember rough top of my head.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
But yeah, it's fun to you know, I mean, and granted,
I get, you know, Aaron Rodgers might have a really
good year this year with Pittsburgh and and you know what,
but you know, ultimately you're you're it's good to be
known that you were with one team. Nobody thinks about
well people, I guess some people think about Michael Jordan
on the Washington Wizards.

Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah, and uh.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, and then he had uh Joe Montana. Did he
play for the Chiefs at the end? Or is that
where does Steve Young play?

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Did he finish?

Speaker 4 (24:46):
That's why he was moved to the Chiefs with Steve
Young was kind of waiting in the wings. And you know,
by all mean he was at that point better than
than Montana. But yeah, I mean Montana still had a
lot left in him. It's just Young was that good.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
And but did Steve Young finish with the forty nine ers?

Speaker 4 (25:05):
I also think so, yeah, you don't remember. And by
the way, multiple teams. So bred Haull played for Calgary,
Saint Louis, Dallas, Detroit and he ended his career with
five games in Phoenix.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (25:21):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know the story behind
those five games. But it was after a year off,
So maybe he just tried to come back and gave
it a go and figured like, nah, this is working
and didn't.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Friend Tarkian didn't play for someone besides the Vikings, briefly
the Giants.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
He was traded too. I think he was traded to
the Giants, I believe, and then came back. Yeah. Yeah,
So for our time at lead Mine, I don't remember
seeing Frank Target didn't play for the Vikings.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Yeah, it's like no one will remember that that that
year that John Cena wrestled for TNA, Right, Uh No,
It's it's cool. He's he's an amazing player to watch,
and yeah, I hope I hope that the support is
around him and we can he will have the support
to actually a playoff runs.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
I mean, obviously star players look really bumm out when
they lose a playoffs, but man carill when the show
him on the bench when the wall are clearly about
to be eliminated for the playoffs or not make the playsfs,
but especially when they're in the first round series and
they're losing, he looks as crestfallen as any as any
athlete I've seen, you know, just you know, you want
people who hurting hurt, losing hurts.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, yeah, that is kind of annoying at times when
as a fan you're devastated and you're just watching you know,
the player for you know, your star player just kind
of like glad hand everybody and not less he's just
going through the motions like he means that he's happy.
You're like, oh god, really dud.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah, when we would go those Viking games and would
be like so mad that Viking's lost, But see them
mulling around and shaking hands and hugging players in the
opposing team afterwards instead of sulking and crying, and we're like, wait,
we're taking this harder than you.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yes, but you know that is their passion.

Speaker 4 (26:51):
Steve Young did not play for well he started with Tampa,
but yeah, once he went to the Niners, he did
not play for another team.

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Okay, yeah, so it's cool, like sees that as a positive.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
So hope, yeah, hopefully hopefully Anthony Edwards feels feels the
same way.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, and hopefully none of the Twins players here, I'm
kidding hopefully yes.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
All right, Well, anyway, I think we spent we spent
our sports time on the wild so if we do
Viking tackle, save it for the very end.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Yes, everyone who is fast.

Speaker 4 (27:22):
Launch right now?

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, sadly, all.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Right, Jase, we'll get a plugin for you in a
few minutes. Let's get back to some conversation here.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
But I think.

Speaker 5 (27:33):
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(27:54):
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(28:17):
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Speaker 1 (28:38):
First, I actually want to give it a little bit
more time on Sina and specifically the aj Styles match
and what do you think they should do next week
to make this feel like a bigger deal because it's
sort of an afterthought after thoughts, right, but it's just
sort of glossed over, like you know, there's a lot
more social media talk than there was han Ra last
night about it. You know, AJ addressed it, but should
like it just I don't know. I mean, I know

(28:59):
it's an out the main attraction on Crown Jewel, and
I know there's people who just it's baked in, they're
excited to see it, but don't you kind of want
to get people who aren't excited to see it because
they didn't lift through it or see AJ is kind
of at the tail tail end and it's two baby
face like shouldn't should you try to do something to
make this feel more special to the larger audience?

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Yes? That I think one of the problems is the
better of the two promos isn't going to be there
on next week's television. He's not scheduled to be I
was kind of thinking I didn't have the listen from him, like, oh,
maybe he's going to be there that smackdowns and you
know they're in Australia, but he's not advertised and so yeah,
it's like up to AJ and last night Basically, he

(29:39):
just said that he likes to beat up John Cena.
That was it, and so the production team's gonna have
to work their magic.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
I know, yeah, And I mean it's great the production
team works their magic, but it does feel, I don't know,
just sort of I'm.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
Just kind of numb to this match. I mean, I'm
sure once the bell rings all I'll enjoy it. It's
not that, but it's just like there's no story here.
It's just they had some good matches in the past
and here we go.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, I would have with all due respect they Doo Styles.
So the phenomenal pun intended career that he's had in ring,
and I mean all that, I could have lived without
a AJ Styles match this year on John Cena's retirement
tour with.

Speaker 4 (30:22):
Him as a baby face. Yeah, like if he were
a heel. I'm not saying they could have termed him
just for this, but if it would have worked out
where he was a heel, then I think at least
you can, you know, build up Styles to be annoying
and want to see him get put in his place. Instead,
it's just you have two baby faces that'll shake hands
before and after.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
So it can be a good match, but AJ has
slowed down a bit, and yeah, without a storyline behind it,
I don't know. I mean, it's it's nice that it's happening.
It's just with matches so scarce.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
You could have.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Done a story with Sena coming out of Lesnar situation,
with some young punk keel laughing about it, mocking Sena
for it and and what happened, and you know, having
a little heel face dynamic and giving a boost to
somebody who has something to gain from it. I don't
mean Grayson Waller or Ethan Paige, but somebody who actually

(31:19):
has some sort of some sort of an upside from
having a chance to lose to Sena, you know, And
they didn't do that. So now we're getting AJ, and
it just it. It does feel like Sena is being
kept in a comfort zone.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
And you know, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (31:35):
Just again, I don't want to lament it because I
like in isolation. I'm happy we get to see AJ
and Sena just it is. You don't have time to
turn it into something, and I think it's gonna I
don't think for them. For a big chunk of today's
fan base, they're not going to look at that and go, oh, yeah,
this is cool. This is a match I really wanted
to see and it's unfortunate. But yeah, other than a
video package, it's gonna be hard to like really give
the context to fans who didn't live through AJ's career

(31:58):
to go, oh, I see why this is happening, and
what is.

Speaker 4 (32:01):
The kind I mean again, they yes, they had good matches. Yeah, okay,
that's about it. I don't remember like great angles and
things like that. Maybe some of it's my memory, but yeah,
I just don't have these fond memories of the AJ
and John Cena program. That match is sure, but you know,
matches all run together after a while for me. So,

(32:22):
like I say, once the bell rings, I think it's
going to be enjoyable. But I can't say that I'm
like counting down the days to their show or anything.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
I am.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
I think the wrestler who might be most bummed out,
who isn't getting a match with Sena but would totally
fit into the the way that.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Sena's matches have been booked, is Kevin Owens.

Speaker 4 (32:44):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah, I mean there's.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
History there, I think, more memorable history than with AJ.
The heel face dynamic matches up the promos would be great.
And you know, I mean, I just I'd be shocked
if the surgery he had led to any kind of
ability to come back in two and a half months.
I mean, the timelines that we've seen, although I don't
think there's been any you know, firm updates would pretty

(33:07):
much rule it out.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
So but he's the guy who would like he'd be
such a good center. It's made avent to boning form.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
I'm wondering, by the way, if we're gonna end up
getting the Miz on one of these TV dates given there.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Now you got me excited, exciting. That's what I want
to see, is mis Now there's a young star on
his way up.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
I know, but I could just I could see them
doing it, like to cross brand. But they don't give
a damn about that Atymore, I don't.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
I don't even think about that when it comes to Sina,
Yeah right, Carmelo, I don't even know what Prancina's on.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
I mean, like I mean, I do, but you know.

Speaker 4 (33:40):
I don't know we're seeing but no, we're seen only
having raw shows left. Mizz would have to cross over
from SmackDown.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Right right, yeah, exactly, and with Carmelo Hayes that would
be better. Like you know what, book Miz Miz gets
hurt and hand and then Carmelo gets the match instead,
and then he at Carmelo against Sina. And I'm not
even saying Carmelo is like on the top five list
of young stars you'd want to see get the memorable Matchressceena,
but there there is a pathway to get there where

(34:08):
at least he's wrestling somebody who isn't you know, near
retirement or just a you know, a mega crossover star
like Logan Paul.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Oh god, I just did a search for miss and scene.
I was like, curious which WrestleMania that was in. Yeah,
well let's see at the top or videos the mis
calls out John Cena four days ago, like oh god,
here we go. Oh jeez, now, I don't it may
have just.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Been something yeah, of course, yeah, but even you know,
I mean, Carmelo Hayes is thirty one, so I mean
he's about a year older than Logan. He'd be the
youngest person other than Logan that that Sena's wrestled in
a match this year. But yeah, maybe they think highly
of Carmelo and the storyline arc with mis is going
to lead to them giving.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Them a push.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
But but again, I'll take that over some of these
other options.

Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yes, that that we brought up. Uh.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
I led the Raw postal last night with this, so
I won't give a long speech about it, but I
encouraged people to check it out. Weight Killer Search Waight Keller,
the Red logo shows my Raw Dynamite and SmackDown post shows,
and last time the post show, id let Off was saying,
I liked seeing Cody Rhodes and Seth Rawlins stand face
to face in the ring last night talking about being

(35:20):
the centerpiece.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
Stars of WWE right now.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Whether you think there should be two title belts, whether
you think it should be on Seth and Cody, especially Seth,
whether you buy Seth as a centerpiece star or just
kind of that tier two guy who's always kind of
hanging out claiming is once they are your two world
champions and that is that is the state of things
they ought to be in a segment facing each other
talking about who this generation, who Sarah's going to be

(35:46):
defined by, And I like going back to that because
I do feel like Cody especially was it was sort
of a not a lost year for him, but he
didn't have something was lost that could have been.

Speaker 3 (35:58):
It wasn't a last year.

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Obviously, there's some somebody in SummerSlam big moments against John
Cena and people would go.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
You're crazy. That was great for for Cody. He's gonna
look back at this positively.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Maybe maybe not when you look at the opportunity cost
of what's seen a displaced that could have been, which
was Cody with his momentum being the guy not having
somebody else come in and steal a bunch of thunder
and and you know, Bogart and Glama a bunch of
attention away from him.

Speaker 3 (36:22):
So I was happy to see that last night. So
that's the positive.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
You do have the negative of your drawn attention to
the fact that you have two champions, so therefore neither
of them really counts.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
It's like having two Stanley Cup champions or Super undisputed
champion with yeah, did they did they say that last night?

Speaker 4 (36:36):
Again, I don't know about last night, but every other
time they certainly do.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
It's like sometimes they don't. I'm like yay, and then
attempt to oh wait, still saying it.

Speaker 4 (36:43):
Oh, you know what. I don't know he was introduced
last night because he interrupted Seth. I don't remember. I
actually was behind, so I think I spent through, So
maybe they did.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah, you can support us on Patreon and get these
shows with ads and plugs removed, the weight Keller Prossing podcast,
Weight Keller Prosing post shows and the PW Torch daily
cast throughout the week with ads and plugs remove, plus
a few bonus VIP shows throughout the month for just
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out patreon dot com slash PW Torch VP. That's patreon

(37:15):
dot com slash PW Torch VIP, and you can also
upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon. Well, nevertheless,
i'll throw to you prose cons. What do you think
of this Crown Jewel Australia main event between these two
and the promos that they've pad so far.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
Yeah, I mean, for first of all, I don't give
a damn about that gaudy Crown Jewel Championship belt. I
don't care about rings, I don't care about any of it.
And so they did the right thing by making this
all about their personal history and their grudge and their rivalry,
and so I think they're playing it right. Yeah, they're
gonna show the stupid belt, but it's really about that,

(37:56):
and Sath is doing a nice job of just looking rattle,
looking obsessed even with getting this win over Cody, and
I kind of want to see Cody indicate that he
wants it more, but I think he's probably not going
to because I'm guessing Seth goes over. But the one
thing that Cody said that I loved was calling Seth

(38:18):
out on this stupidity of who's going to lead the
company into the future for the next ten to twenty
years and saying, isn't that a bit much? Yes? And
he just keeps repeating it, like, no one's buying this, man.
I know it plays into the whole Vision faction name
and all this, but nobody buys it. I even heard
like there was some not not like everybody, but there
were some audible groans one of the times when he

(38:38):
said it. And then he after Cody basically just called
him out on it. He closed with the line very
similar to end the segment, like, really, oh my god,
Seth figure it out. Seth is so good but he
just he has this either him or created somebody's just
very stubborn when it comes to certain things with Seth Rawlins,

(38:59):
not changing the music, saying the same things, even when
he's called out on just so many little things to
just get irritating. But he's also so damn good at
what he does.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, but he does seem to want badly to be
more than he is, and he's.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Not very good at getting there.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
And I don't you know, I mean, I have a
list of things that I guess he could have done different,
but this has been a struggle with him for a
long time. You know, Steve Austin and I on the podcast,
I don't know if he was on Minor E's on
his said, you know what is Seth freakin Rowlins? You
know Steve Boston's what is a Seth freakan Rowlins? Like
it's undefined, And you know, in the in the in
the Shield, it was like, Okay, he's a guy, but

(39:38):
it was clear, you know, Roman Ranges had kind of
that quiet cool factor and and Moxley had the the
you know, kind of crazy eyed, quirky whatever.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
You know that he more owned the room.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
And so that's those just sort of workman like promos
and now it's like, oh, I'm going to be this
Elton John esque you know whatever, full of you know,
the visionary and all that stuff revolutionary. But he throws
these it's out there, and I don't believe, when pressed,
he could give you a tangible explanation for what any
of it actually means. And that's what works against this

(40:09):
whole thing and the Restumania for was built around it.
You know, it's like, oh, the winner of this match
is going to be you know, this is for the
for the future direction.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
Of Doubt to be and You're like, what does that
even means?

Speaker 1 (40:19):
So it's abstract, and yet he continues to lean on it.
And obviously that's you know, one of the issues I've
had just with with the vision as a faction.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
It's like, it.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Doesn't seem like Paul Haman knows either or that he
frankly cares all that much. Paul cares about Bronson Reid
and especially bron Breaker and Roman Reign still you know,
and all that, but you know, off outside of the storyline.
But I don't sense that Hayman's putting all his chips
on Let's get this faction over and let's create clear chemistry.

(40:51):
With Seth, it still feels like this Vision faction is
a bridge to get somewhere else and it's not meant
to be an era to finding long term faction. And
then you have you know, we'll get into that next.
But the lessner stuff. So with Seth, it's it's tough
because he's trying, but when he's coming out to his
music because he doesn't want to give up the pop

(41:12):
that the crowd gives him, he does display some of
the traits that frustrate people of the generation.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Older than him.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
And that goes all the way back to the NXT
days where I, you know, heard the story. He's like,
I gotta get my spots in and the you know veterans,
the veterans in in NXT were like, no, you don't
not about getting your spots in. It's about telling the
story or telling in this match. Not every match has
to have your spots in it. But but I get
a Bob from it. He's always had kind of this
you know this like you know c plus not you know,
like approach to to his his character and his in

(41:44):
ring wrestling. Incredibly gifted, super hard worker, absolutely people are
going to remember him as as a top star of
this era for sure, but not a top top star,
you know, like not the guy who's really caring anything,
and he's just constantly struggling to find what his lane is.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
He's just this.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
I wouldn't say he's I don't know, is he I
was gonna say costplay, but he's not. Really that's almost
too big of a compliment, Like if he had a
distinct character, but it felt like he was costplaying it.
He doesn't have a distinct character. He's just it's kind
of like what Eric Bischoff field DDP that one time,
and DDP said that when I interviewed him, he's like, yeah,
Eric just said, every time I see you've got a
new layer of something on you and you're just a
you're just this mess of a billboard, you know, like

(42:27):
just strip everything down and be DDP, this working man underdog.
Your story's great. Drop all the jewelry and all the
all the gaudiness. And he did, and that's when he
broke out and Seth kind of might ultimately and maybe
that's where they go after the whole vision thing. I
don't know, is he just strips everything away. And he's
just the fortysh year old locker room veteran who's who's been,

(42:52):
as he says, been there through ups and downs and
stuck around, and he can kind of ride kind of
the AJ Styles type, you know, final five year of
his prime or you know, whatever comes right after prime
where you're still really good. I don't know, Jason, but
it's getting I mean, it's it doesn't feel like it
was that long ago. He was the kid in his
mid twenties and now he's, you know, approaching.

Speaker 4 (43:13):
Forty and time flies, for sure. Yeah, he I don't
know that he's ever going to be the guy in WW.
I think the closest he probably came was when he
had to be subservient to Triple as Stephanie, and that
was more about that was more on them and ben
Vince's booking, I think than Seth. I think that was

(43:36):
the time to really let him get turn him loose,
and now like he does really good work. He's very
consistent for them, but yeah, there are just these things
and it just seems like he is reluctant to change,
or maybe it's for all I know, he wants to
and they're like no, no, no. The music. It's a reaction.
There was years ago. There was I remember like somebody

(43:59):
cried on w w E TV and it was a
heel and like, oh god, and then it turns it
like oh, I bet they didn't like that. And then there
was footage of Levett talking about how he loved it,
like oh really, man, and because it it was it
was real, and it was like, ah, but it's not
the right kind of real Paul. So I don't know

(44:19):
how much is seth and how much is just a company,
but there is an issue there and he's really good,
but I do think he could be great if they
just made some tweaks.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
The Paul Beck story is being written right now, and
I don't know, you know, the full answer answer to
it in terms of him being the you know, long
term creative leader without you know, sort of like you know,
a long term coach in sports. You know, the good
job's not guaranteed forever, and you got to be really good.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
To keep that job. And PAULA.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
Beck is hired by someone he is not hiring himself,
like fnsic Man essentially did so you know.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
I don't know. I mean, it's it's Paul Beck charge
of creative four years from now.

Speaker 4 (45:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I mean I doubt that.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Yeah, they've certainly built him up to be their day
of White, like it feels like they want to. I
don't really think that's him as much as I kind
of have a feeling that's what TKO wants, and I
don't think he's pushing back on that by any means,
but I do. Just you can kind of see the
parallels with him and how they feature Dana White and

(45:27):
why they would want that because it has worked out
from the UFC side. And the quote that comes to
mind when it comes to Paul Avec these days is
actually one that WWE put out. I don't know if
it was him maybe, but the whole line too after
AW beat them in the ratings. You know, it's a
it's a marathon, not a sprint. And that's how I'm

(45:49):
feeling about his booking right now. Like you know, at
the beginning, Man, he was firing on all cylinders and
it was great, and we saw this once before in NXT.
As time goes on, he seems too struggle and we
only have NXT to look back on for that. But
he did struggle, and he also had the benefit in
the next team, and he was the first to admit it,

(46:09):
like you would lose people and you would gain people.
Nobody stayed there and got old, and you know really
that you know some I guess a few, but you
would always have new players coming and going, and you're
gonna have some of that on the main roster, but
not nearly as much. And you know, he did kind
of get delt a bit of a bad hand at

(46:30):
the end with it was just bad timing I think
for them going up against AW when they did. AW
was a new kid in town that had a lot
going for them, and Levec was just at a point
creatively where I don't think he was firing on all cylinders.
But I also don't think he had the top. It
wasn't like it was the peak of NXT's time with

(46:51):
the talent there either, and you know, some of the
talent they had was just getting a little long in
the tooth. You've seemed like the Undisputed era like how
many times and it's just that where that hurt him.
And so yeah, but long story short, I just I
need to see that, Okay, you've got a good first
year or whatever it was, and that's that's great, but

(47:12):
can you do this long term? Once you kind of
get in a rut, can you work yourself out of it?
And he didn't really get that opportunity to do that
in the next so now we have to kind of
wait and see if he can pull that off on
the main roster.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
And we have the indications of some things he's doing
now he's trying to put a stamp on things, and
I worry that he's trying to put a stamp on
things more than he's doing what is a recognition of
what gave them the surgeon business that they had, And
that is a lot for my taste. Too many situations
where you don't the fans don't know who they're cheering for,

(47:46):
who they out of cheer for, yes, and so when
you choose sides, and if you do that with Down,
for instance, you end up with fans maybe prematurely seeing
a wrestler in different light because you force.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Them to rationalize.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
I mean like in politics, you go through the primary
season Democrat, Republican, and you got your favorite, and you
you convince yourself that all the others are lesser or awful,
and then when one of those lesser or awful people win,
and then you look across at the other option. You
start rationalizing why you actually can live with this person,
and it's good. I don't want you don't want fans
going through that with wrestlers where I used to like

(48:23):
really like booing Tom but it was actually kind of
fun seeing him do that to Russ or do that
to Goonther, And now you have fans. You have fans
before the story is Ripe seeing a wrestler different way
and cheering for them. Same thing where you lose enthusiasm
for a wrestler when you put two baby faces against

(48:43):
each other and it's like, oh, I gotta choose between
Rhea Ripley and and that this opponent and that opponent,
and you put them in multi person matches and you
start going, well, Rio was kind of weird when it
came to that, and she's kind of petty when it
came to that, and she doesn't understand contract law, and
that's a disqualifier for me whatever I'm jing, But like,
you put people in a situation where you start having

(49:03):
fans to think about negatives instead of just focusing on
the positives, and I think he does that too much.
And I understand there's a whole array of one rationale
that hey, that's more realistic, and it's old hat to
always have just face against heel. What are the odds
that be the case? But you didn't write your own stories.
You get to pook your own matches, and you should
have a deep enough roster you don't have to go
to that, and sometimes it just feels like it's due

(49:24):
to a lack of planning, and so you just go
with the novelty.

Speaker 6 (49:32):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (49:47):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
And each one of the individual stories. Oftentimes you can
justify it's more the how how often it's happening. Sometimes
on the same show. I mean, we had two instances
on Raw last night where wrestler had to stand in
the aisle and pause before deciding to make a safe
you know, like you just it feels like sometimes they're
doing too much of the same thing too often.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
It does. Yeah, and we're getting that scenario you just
talked about with the women, and part of it is
just because of the the format of the show. But okay,
now fans have to cheers between Stephanie mcare and Tiffany Stratton,
and I mean, I don't know how that I would
assume it's going to be the hare, but it's who knows.

(50:47):
So that, yeah, that's that one's kind of rough. They
were doing that with Tiffany Stratton and you had Cargill.
It just goes on and on, and they need to
get back to the basic now. I will, in his defense,
say that some of the things I'm seeing lately give
me a little more encouragement. I really like what they're

(51:07):
doing with the Eosky Osca, Rhea Ripley and Kyrie Sane story.
That one's been fun to watch. I hated the way
that Bailey stuff started, but now that we got through
hearing her inner dialogue, it's been fun since then. So yeah,
there are and Dom is just kind of taking off.
It's not really I don't think they're creative, but it's

(51:27):
been entertaining. They're doing some good things, like just a
dynamic with him and Finn Balor is fun. So yeah,
there are some good things going. But then you look
and there's also nonsense, like you have tag team champions
that haven't defended the title since July, and you could
have those titles on Braun Breaker and Bronson Reed and
they'd be really high profile. And yeah you'd have to

(51:48):
Like last night, you couldn't have had them lose, or
it would have been a non title match viadam. But
still I'd rather have that than just nothing. Yeah, there's
in the Ria Ripley thing. Point until this whole thing
with Eos guys, I was just like losing it, Like,
this is one of your biggest stars. Why is she
just like, Oh, we don't really have anything for her
to do, so let's just have her to deliver a

(52:09):
quick backstage promo. You would not have done this with
Steve Austin. You wouldn't do it now with Cody Rhodes.
She is one of your top players. Get better find
things for her every week if he's there, and you
can use her, my god, and they just weren't doing it,
and so at least that's improved too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Yeah, No, And I am not when I say will
he be in Creative in four years? I'm not voting
against him, and I'm not saying I'm not voting for
his ouster, nor would I bet on anything other than him, Yes,
being in charge of Creative in four years, but I'm
less sure of it than I was a year ago.
In fact of that's just politics, you know the politics

(52:51):
of everything and all that.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
But there's a lot of signs that he.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Is a you know, he's a steady, you know, wrestling mind.
Obviously he goes back to the territory days, he brings
that with him. But you know, just it's been a
shakier for his booking. I am, you know, I'm certainly
not alone. We're not alone and going this hasn't been
a standout year. But I also understand John Cena disrupted
things tween Johnson disrupted things. You know, what happens in

(53:15):
twenty twenty six if if Leveck just kind of gets
to plan the year out and not have to have
you know, hedging, because is Johnson the turnheel or not.
Is the rock gonna want Cody to turn heel? Do
we have to hedge on storylines that we want to
tell them the way we want to tell them because
of these interlopers coming in and you know, carpet bankers
who are just popping in because it'll be fun and
I'll give a boost to things, and you're just disrupting

(53:36):
so many other things that are going well.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
You know, let's give him a couple of years hopefully
without that stuff to you know.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Work with people who are there every week, weekend, and
week out with their ideas well.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
And I keep pointing out with t KO, we don't
know what the reaction is going to be if they
don't make as much money as they are right now.
It just takes a little bit of a turn. Now
it does don't have to be a dramatic one. I mean,
who knows. They they they ride it out. They may
be very loyal to him. They may also be like
this isn't working all the.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Plood yep, and it won't necessarily be a good decision.
Like a lot of gets and sports don't understand coaching.
They just look at the record and they don't want
nuanced They just want to make news and fire the
GM or fire the.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
Coach, or hire a patsy who's gonna do what they
want him to do.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Yeah, yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Let me go to an email from JB from Detroit.
He goes, I'm a bit confused with what they're doing
with Rucev versus Dom. If this isn't a vehicle to
turn Dom completely face that, I'm not sure that this
feud does much for either character. Tell me what you
thought about that match last night, and and talk about
the Doma aspect which Jab brings up, but also Rusev
and where you think he fits in, because had they

(54:43):
done something different with Rusev this year, he could be
actually a good Saturday Night's main event opponent for seeing
it to close out, to give seen a feel good win.
Rus gets a little bit of a rub from being
in that spot. You can you can lo and have
that be ignite a change in your character that kind

(55:06):
of redirects you. Now, all that said, he's also thirty
nine years old. He's not somebody who's like this young
young guy who's going to get a big bump and
carry around, but he doesn't have a lot of.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Wear on the tires. Either.

Speaker 1 (55:18):
You know, he managed to make that work in AW
and he hasn't exactly been the work horse other than
the shamous matches in w So anyway, over to you
for your thoughts on the Dummerso match. In both rest
of them.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
I enjoyed the match. It was fun to see. In
this case. Yeah, there's times where he asked the crowd
to decide and they don't know, they'd rather be guided
and they just kind of sit there. But they definitely
hills dom in that match and had fun with it,
and then so that helped. It was a Yeah, it
was kind of a strange call to go with that match,
but I agree with you. With the right build, he

(55:53):
could be a player and would be you know, like
there'd be some quols seen that they're going to have
seen it beat him or they going to I try
to like, is that going to be the guy that
Sina tries to elevate on his way out the door,
and right now he would just feel out of place.
I mean, I'm not saying you can't do it, but
it would take a lot of work to get people.
We'll get it fired up about a russev and John

(56:14):
Cena Mage, I think I mean, I don't know. There's
people that are fired up about the aj styles and
John Cena matched with zero Bill and so who knows.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Yeah, And to me, there was a chance to still
get more out of Russev, quite a bit more than
they have this year with him coming back, and I
think you could have getting people. I think people could
have cared about him by now. And I again I
see him as a you know, in the on the
postal last night, somebody said he's kind of the Lance Archer,
you know of Doughby. You know, he's the guy who
will get a win, but then he'll lose to somebody

(56:43):
bigger than him afterwards.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
And Russev certainly is more than that.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
Now he hasn't been defined down as much, but I
get why that comes up, and he could have been
more than that. And again, what I'm looking for for
Science Made event is just what's a feel good win
for Sina with a clear heel to defeat with his
finishing sequence in the fans cheer, but the heel who
loses isn't devastated by the loss. It's just sort of

(57:10):
fits and Russet fits it. Kevin Owns in a different
way would fit that, but they just don't have a
lot of good candidates before that. But yeah, I think Rusev,
you know, thirty nine years old, that he just sees
him as utility guy, you know. I mean it's pretty
clear that's.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
But get what you can out of the guy. And
I don't feel like they've done that. You know. It's
like the shamish thing sounded fun and it started kind
of fun, and then she's just like, oh, you guys
are still doing that. It's like, can we wrap this
up please? It just wasn't as good as it should
have been. And then yeah, like the moving him on
to domds like, well, at least we're doing something new
with him. But he loses there kind of a Yeah,

(57:45):
it's a low blow finish, so it's not like he's
ruined or anything, but I am curious to see what
comes next for him.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yep, I agree, all right, Well, Jbre brought a couple
of other things here. They've got a they've got to be
a lot more care with Oscar's mist blowing gimmick. It
was far It was from so far away that the
slow motion replay looked like it barely touched face. I
didn't know until last night that the Blue Mist actually has,

(58:14):
as Wade Barrett might put it, asexual reproduction possibilities because
it spread over her, over Eelsky's whole body as the
night went on.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
It sure did. Yeah, that was that was something. I
don't call me crazy. If it's me, I probably go shower.
It doesn't have the same effect. I get why wrestlers
sit there with the blood and do the promo with
the blood rather than go clean up. But the Blues,
like you get the one shot of it, it's enough
and after a while it's like she looks like a smurf.
Quit this it. Yeah, I think that the better solution

(58:44):
to this is watch the replay go oh, that doesn't
look good. Let's not show it from this ankle.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
It's that simple and totally and with uh the the
the selling things after the fact, Like Greg Ganya when
I grew up, you'd have the bandage on his forehead
after a big match at the Saint Falcific centered be
selling that he got cut in the match. And I
love that wrestler should get cut. They should have bandages
a week later. It's just a lost art to actually

(59:11):
have like selling.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
Now if if they got cut hard ways they have
a bandage the next week.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Yeah, and so I get that, but I don't get
blue missed and not showering, but rubbing your eyes constantly
and having it continue to sting. It's like, I know
why your eyes still sting. It was an hour ago.

Speaker 3 (59:30):
Wash your face, take a shower, get medical help to
rinse your eyes out. It's just it was. It was
just comically absurd.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
But yeah, I mean, the miss you gotta. I mean,
plus you have the whole mystery of why does the
mist not hurt Oscar's mouth? Why doesn't it sting in
her mouth? But it sting's eyes? Like how many things?
I guess we have salad dressing with vinegar in it,
but we don't want vinegar in our eyes.

Speaker 4 (59:50):
So maybe it's like if you eat an orange, it's fine,
but if you, like were gonna get some orange juice
in your eye, it's not gonna feel good.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
Yeah, So there we go.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite
in particular, send us an email if you've got thoughts
on the show, or a topic you want us to address,
or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at pwtorch dot com,
Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything else
going on in pro wrestling that you want us to
address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments, that

(01:00:23):
same email applies Wade Keller podcast at pw torch dot com.
We invite that interaction. Let us know what you think
of what we're saying, and let us know what you
want us to talk about and ask us specific questions.
Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Uh okay. He also says real quick.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
The acting and that I'm loving that program, but my god,
there's some horrible acting taking place. Just Eo Like, She's like,
she turns into an eight year old girl just pouting
all the time, feeling sorry for herself. But it's I
can laugh. But if it's working, I am into this.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
I like Kyrie's acting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
Yeah, Oscar is Oscar Like, it's just we understand she
is very emotive in her enunciations of everything, and I
guess it's sort of part of the charm. Eo Sky
It's haven't I haven't quite adjusted to where I'm I'm
I'm forgiving you know that the acting aspect of that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
It's funny. I mean, yeah, working and yeah, Kyrie has
been really fun and I didn't expect it, you know,
she's always just kind of been the third wheel of
the faction and but yeah, just being torn and just
looking exhausted by everything at times, and yeah, I think
she's doing a great job with it. And I'm just yeah,

(01:01:48):
as far as Oscar, I wish somebody would sit her down, like, hey, look,
Vince is gone.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Yeah that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Yeah, I think it's the people would say. A lot
of people should reminded Vince is gone. You don't have
to do a lot of things Vince used to do.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
All right.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Finally, this is will lead into another discussion wont to have
before shift aw here. JB says the USO's need to
stop dancing so much between their moves and well people
actually boo a cool heel juso. So first of all,
just quick thing about douso's. Are they playing to the
crowd too much?

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
I guess I'll have to pay more attention to it. Yeah,
I mean I guess there certainly have been times they have.
I can't continer and tell you like it's yeah, I
guess what ja Yes, yeah, they are.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
So what do you see going on with Jay and
Jimmy and rains. I mean that was the closing scene.
It's a big storyline right now. J going heel is
what most people assume is the direction things are going,
and I get that, and I think it's not wrong
to think that's most likely.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
You know, I pitched. I wouldn't rule out La.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Knight turns here and the Jay thing kind of turns
out to be a tease, But I don't have as
I don't think there's just an obvious distinct way this
is going to go other than the path of lease
resistance seems to be Jay as a heel faces Jimmy
does something that leads.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
To them Roman against j with Roman as a face
and Jay as a heel.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
But Roman was like last night through a little bit
of a twist in that because he was so positive
to Jay, and Jimmy's in the background going come on, man,
like his body language said something else. But I can't
imagine them turning Roman. But there's so many moving parts
because I look at anything with Roman through the lens
of where does he circle back to Paul Hayman and

(01:03:38):
does he end up being a heel so that he
can take on a be managed by Hayman again against
a baby face bron Breaker almost bron Breaker a year
and a half from now. Like there's so you know,
anything involving Hayman, there's gonna be like long term story
arcs with end goals that they're kind of soft or

(01:03:59):
hard aiming for. So, yeah, tell tell me what you're
thinking about about that that web So I keep.

Speaker 4 (01:04:06):
Saying that I like the story in part because I
don't know where it's going, and that's fun, you know,
I'm just watching it unfold and that's cool. It's it's
nice to not just feel like you know where everything's
heading at all times or have a pretty good idea
this one. I have no clue. I lean though toward
what you were saying about La knighton I. I just

(01:04:29):
think he would be a much better heel than Jay
would be as a solo act. I don't see Jay.
I mean, I guess he could have matches with Sammy,
and there's definitely people he can work with Roman, because
I don't think Roman, like you say, is turning heel.
He's just he's the OTC. That's how he is. And
with Jay, I don't know that I'm gonna buy him

(01:04:50):
as a I just don't. I don't know that he's
got to have the mic work to pull it off.
And yeah, you would have Paul Hayman with him in
that scenario, but I just I don't know that, Yes,
he would be betraying the fans and the little kids
and all that. I don't know. I don't have confidence
in it. I guess I would need to. I hope
I'm proven wrong if that's the direction they go, But

(01:05:12):
I just I guess I need to see it. I mean,
we've seen the usos's heels over the years. It's not
like we've never seen it. But I just think that
Jay is at his best. You're taking away so many
of the positive things that Jay brings to the table,
and if you take away the charisma and the energy
and the connection he has with the fans, I think
you're going to kind of expose some of those weaknesses

(01:05:32):
that he has.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
Yeah, I mean, I'm like you, I'm on board for
the story. Tell me the story. I think there's enough
range and positives we've seen with with Jay that I think,
with the right booking and the right storytelling, the right
direct direction that he can be really compelling in a
variety of ways that I think they're going with this.

(01:05:55):
Jimmy obviously has at times seemed the more bland of
the two. He certainly didn't have the freight run earlier
this year. But there's something about him that feels grounded,
and there's a constitution to him that feels more stable
that I think is working in the storyline where people
like Gay I kind of, you know, this is it
time for me to look at Jimmy differently and like
him better than Jay because at least he's not him

(01:06:17):
and and haying and and stressing me out. But then yeah,
and then Roman, so yeah, I mean taking me on
for the ride. I believe that, you know, when you
look at what the camera angle last night and Jimmy
kind of looking sideways at the end of his head
hanging just like, come on, what's going on here?

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
That's a good hook for what comes next?

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
Right? And the other thing is I get this And
I could be way off on this, but seems like
the dynamic between those three is a hell of a
lot more interesting than what we have going on in
the vision. So is that whare Paul Hammon's attention is going.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Really, I know, and in fact it I wanted to
transition to that. So I'm glad he brought it up
because this the scene in Gorilla where Seth said I
need to beat him and Hayman goes, of course you will,
You're you're the visionary and He's like, no, no.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
I need to beat him.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
That meant something, and it made me wonder if Seth
is going to beat Cody.

Speaker 3 (01:07:15):
Well, but he said.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
I need to beat him, so I'm not at the
for short stage. And the reason I say that is
it made it seem like if he doesn't, something big
is going to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
The other way to look at it is he will
go to any length to win, and so he's going
to lean on Hayman and break or and read or
whatever to make sure he wins. But he said I
need to win with such ominous tone, and Hayman sold
it that. I'm more intrigued with what happens if he
doesn't like what happens, if interference backfires and he loses

(01:07:49):
and he snaps, or it shakes him out of whatever
realm he's been like, I just is there something else
going on with Seth that last night was hinting at
that we're not looking at as more of a sinc possibility,
you know that we should be looking at as more
of a possibility than Oh, of course he's lost so
many times in your attention to that it's his turn
to win. And it also sorry he has a secondary

(01:08:11):
title and if the main guy, you know, if the
guy with a more prestigious title beats him, whos seen
as better? It really hurts Seth. But is there a
story you can tell where him losing is leads to
some big change that actually propels him into next year
in a better way.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
Yeah. Possibly. Now, when you laid out like that, it
does make sense that, Okay, he needs this, somebody costs him,
and yeah, that could break him. But I'm also looking
at the way Cody's played this so far, and Cody's
not playing up the need to win this match. Cody's

(01:08:50):
worrying about like are we going to be friends? And
there's still some time to go. But I do wonder
I kind of touched on this earlier, if that just
that's the approach for Cody right now is not winning
this match, So I'm not going to make it seem
like it's the you know, winning is the most important
thing in my world. So that's kind of part of
the reason I lean said. Plus, you know, so it

(01:09:12):
again what you're saying. I think there is a scenario there,
But I do feel like that's zero to three. If
he loses d Cody again, what kind of a rivalry
is it? Yeah, they can still heat it up again,
I suppose. But yeah, I mean I think what you're
what you're throughout there is certainly interesting, But I just
don't know that like you would say, like if Braun

(01:09:33):
Breaker were to cost him to match the way Paul
of that books, like I was going to say when
you were talking about jay Uso, like we might be
talking about this next year, the way he sticks out
and and so yeah, I don't know that we're going
to get the vision breaking up that quickly. Not that
you know you would have to from that, but you

(01:09:53):
would think that would be like the beginning of the end.

Speaker 8 (01:10:02):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood, and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:10:22):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
So let's step back and look because it's important to
the context of this discussion about Cody Needling Seth about
did you approve Pyman introducing brock Lesner?

Speaker 4 (01:10:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
I mean yeah, it's like, you know, sometimes you watch
like the White House Press Corps and you're like, why
are they not asking the president the question that everybody
watching at home wants them to ask? And it gets frustrating,
you know, like, do you understand that these generals were
showing up are actually United States generals? Because the way
you just phrased it made you think they're from other
countries and that.

Speaker 3 (01:11:01):
Is confusing to us. If you're confused about that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
You know that happened, Like you want the announcers, the
interviewers to be asking questions, and Cody took that role,
Which is did you prove of that, Seth?

Speaker 3 (01:11:16):
We've all been wondering.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
Seth claimed yes, but not with a level of credibility
That closes the door on speculation that maybe Seth is
growing and secure that Paul Haman went a little rogue,
but he doesn't want to show. He doesn't want to,
you know, give people the insight into some dissension within
the ranks, because then that'll look reflect poorly on him
as a leader and he'll look secondary. I think that's
some of the thoughts we're supposed to have coming out
of that segment. But I still don't really know where

(01:11:41):
that's going. Did they just want Lesner on ESPN for
the first.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Time in this era and then he's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
And he just trits seeing it and he'll be back,
and it's gonna by the time we get there, we'll
kind of forget that. Hayman is sort of, you know,
getting back with the old girlfriend, so to speak, briefly,
you know, for a little fling before going back home.
I mean, it has that vibe to it where you think, yeah,
what's Seth think about this? But there's so many things
that are out there with people are gonna be on

(01:12:09):
TV week in and week out in listeners. Not that I
don't know where it fits in, but they're not steering
us away from it. Based on having Cody Needle Seth
about it and having Seth take a stance. So what's
your interpretation of what's going on here in the pace
at which we'll find out more.

Speaker 4 (01:12:25):
I don't know. That's another one where's kind of up
in the air and it just started, and so I
I'm not sure. It seems like Brock. I don't know
that he's gonna like be coming to Raw to like
feud with Seth or anything. I mean, I guess there's
I kind of assume he's gonna go after Cody. But

(01:12:46):
if they were to like really surprise me and pull
the plug out the vision thing quickly and Seth did
become a baby face of coming out of this, then
Brock would make sense. But like I just I just
can't wrap my nothing. Everything Lovac book books takes forever,
but most of it does. You know. He likes to
take his time with things, which I don't think is bad.

(01:13:06):
I wish there were a little there was a little
more variety, I guess would be my criticism of that.
I'd rather have somebody take their time and drag things
out than just rush everything. But you can do a
little bit, you know, more of just so you just
didn't have that feeling like, okay, this is getting just
getting started, We're not going to find anything out for months.
In every scenario you can do better with that. But yeah,

(01:13:29):
it's an interesting storyline that just got started. And it's Brock,
so god knows when he's going to be around again.
And so that's what kind of makes it tough for
me to even invest in this, like to put a
lot of thought into where is this going because it
might just be you know, we don't see Bronck again
until the Rumble and it's forgotten or that they resume it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
Then yep, well I do not I would not want
to be in the betting market trying to predict what
the next twist in turn and as you say, at
what pace it happens.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
But I'm intrigued, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
I mean there's a lot of movie mars I I
you know, sort of in Hayman and Rains and Lesnar
you kind of trust, you know, they're going to be
very deliberate in what they do and have the influence
to keep anyone from messing with it too badly from
the you know, whether it's Levak or somebody else. And
you hope Levek is is uh, you know, fully on
board with everything also, and I think when it comes

(01:14:25):
to that group, he has reason to be because the
bloodline predates him and it's got, you know, a lot
of a lot of granular, useful history to draw from,
and that makes the you know, the storylines really intriguing.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
So it's one of the strengths of w.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
W right now, I agree, absolutely, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
One of the weaknesses, perhaps Jake from New Zealand emails
way to find myself frustrated with the sure volume of recaps,
advertisements and overly drawn out entrances on w W programming.
Do you think fans are reaching the point where they'll
start voting with their wallets or remotes, essentially zoning out
of the product because of how much the show's feel
like they're shilling themselves. The rest of po Loser recap
to start the show six days after the event on

(01:15:05):
SmackDown proved my what proved to be my tipping point.
I thought that last night with Raw two. It's like,
you know, if you start Raw late and you fast
you know, you can fast forward past stuff. I don't
know how many people do that. Maybe with the earlier
start time more people were doing that the last couple
of weeks. Uh, but it obviously, the level of patting
themselves on the back self congratulations, breaking about metrics and

(01:15:29):
dollars and big corporate media deals. It feels out of
touch with why fans tune into pro wrestling and Dugby
has the money, they have the mainstream acceptance. It's time
to just like not there's an insecurity that, under understand
is part of the DNA of this industry, and understandably

(01:15:49):
so the level of you know, sometimes earned sometimes not
disrespect that this business gets from people in sports and
acting and all that for how corny it is and
looking down on the fans and looking down on on
you know, when tried to pretend it it was railmen,
it clearly wasn't in terms of you know, matches being
real fights that car that carries over and I get that,
But there does come a point where it's like, you understand,

(01:16:10):
people don't look at you that way again, and those
who do will never understand, So stop fighting it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
Just go entertain the fans.

Speaker 1 (01:16:15):
And there is a level of that, and then you
also go who are you marketing to exactly? When you
do these long recap after recap of these things, like
I'm okay with recapping things but the length they go
to show off and flex their ability to tell a
story with a video at the top of a show
when you just want to see some new content, I

(01:16:36):
also think is pushing it. I'm with Jacob on this.
I can understand some fans going these poes. If I
can just watch the stuff I care about, the three
and a half hours becomes an hour forty five minutes.

Speaker 4 (01:16:47):
I okay. I got to push back on this one
a little bit because I'm very critical of AW not always,
but oftentimes they have a pay per view and they
don't do an effective job. And I'm down on that because, yeah,
if you saw it, you don't need the recap, but
we know there's far more people that see the television

(01:17:07):
shows than see the ples or the pay per views,
And you just spent how much time building up this
shows a major event? It needs to feel that way
coming out of it, or your hype just becomes people
become numb to it, like, yeah, you tell me every
event is it's a huge, and then you forget about
it and move on to the next one. So I
think it's important to do that, maybe not as much

(01:17:28):
as they Maybe they should be more selective in terms
of what they're showcasing. And admittedly there is a big
part of me that I've been known to say, like
when they open the show with these these pl recaps,
I just spend the whole two and a half hours
doing it. I'll take the night off. I've said that
seriously about several times.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
With Yeah, I think it's the confluence of in the
totality of how many commercials ticket announce I mean, they're
pretty slick about the ticket announcements, you know, coming in,
you know, they do a ring entry and they go
to break, they come back, you get a quick view
of the city, and they plug the tickets.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
I mean, it's fine.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
They're not doing like these long you know, here's all
the dates coming up type stuff, and there's a lot
to get across. I do think the PLS where people think, wait,
I'm paying through my subscription to this service, and I
know there's a blurred line now and pls are not
pay per views. It is a different it's just a
different category now, and I think people are unfortunately going
to need to adjust to that.

Speaker 3 (01:18:24):
You know, the even when.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
It's at IF even again an ad free tier, they're
just filling time with other things instead of commercials, and
sometimes the commercials are more fun than the things they
are filling the time with. So it's a different you know,
just in a different realm right now. But the plis
are when you especially it jump jumped out to me
a week and a half ago, it's like AW payper,
which is bang bang bang Wressell Wressel wrestle, and and
then you get to do to B and it's like, whoa,

(01:18:48):
there's a lot of time before the bell rings. There's
a lot of time in between the one match ending
and the other one's starting.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
So I just I beg for a happy medium. Yeah, absolutely,
in between WWE matches on plee is absurd. I appreciate
it if somebody covering the show, it makes my life
a little.

Speaker 3 (01:19:06):
Easier, totally, I get that.

Speaker 4 (01:19:07):
Yeah, but yeah, the AW it's like what are they
ninety second video packages that I really don't get a
lot from and then you bam right to the next
mat like break it up a little bit, slow down
and just take some things out. You don't need to
rush everything. There was one show where they had a
talking segment. I think it was something with Swerve Stricklin

(01:19:28):
and I don't even remember. If it was like a
well received talking segment, it didn't matter. It broke things up,
it helped.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Yeah, we're about to go to a commercial break. Why
listened to commercial breaks? When you can go VIP and
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(01:19:56):
remove the ads and plugs. For Patreon, full VIP membership
starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents. Treat yourself
to a streamlined, ad unplug free listening experience with a
VIP or Patreon membership. I will take aw's exact format,
but subtracting four matches. Yes, and I'm okay with the pace.

(01:20:18):
I'm okay with the video packages. Honestly, I don't need
talking segments on my pay per views either, so I
I like what they do. They just need to make
it shorter.

Speaker 4 (01:20:26):
Yeah, I don't need talking segments on my pay per
views unless the pay per views are you know, going
into six hours of matches, matches and more matches and
then I do.

Speaker 3 (01:20:35):
Yeah, No, I get that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
I think with dot to Be, the idea is, can
can you respect my time? I think that's what I
think that's where Jake's coming from. Please respect my.

Speaker 4 (01:20:45):
Team with all the rest, Like, my god, people, we
don't need this many shows.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Well there's that, but if you're going to have a
show and I'm sitting down to watch it for three hours,
please give me more than an hour forty minutes of content.

Speaker 4 (01:20:56):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:20:56):
That's and I think that's where people are feeling disrespected.
They're feeling like that's a that's a lot of expecting
me to sit down.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
And I know people can.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
Take their phones out, let the dog out, run to
the kitchen, run of the bathroom, whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
But it's like you just want to settle in and
watch it and it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
You know, people are used to like halftime in the NFL,
and okay, we get that there's in between periods and
quarters and all that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:14):
And so flipping channels unless it's Monday.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
Yeah, and and that's so I don't know, I just
I mean, you know, I'm feeling it. I think people
are noting it and if I'm do to B, I
listen and I I try to add a match to
these pls and pull back on on the the self aggrandizement.

Speaker 4 (01:21:32):
Yeah, yeah, there is too much. But on the flip side,
I feel like AW is not respecting my time by
going six hours. You know. Yeah, both of these companies
need to get better at this.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
Totally just self shilling, you know, as as Jacob said,
they're selling, they're shilling themselves, and it's like, hey, you
guys have arrived. We'll stipulate to the fact that you're
you're you're popular, your mainstream, you've been embraced by pop culture.
Please think of the fans more than that that you have,
more than trying to prove something to the fans you

(01:22:02):
don't have, or the people that you think are watching
but aren't.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
In the corporate world who you're trying to prove something to.

Speaker 4 (01:22:08):
Yeah, we're all happier on the ESPN get over it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:22:12):
I mean that's in the John Cena Logan Pulse if
and I get you know, with them, it's going to
be metric because Logan pulsl character is built on that.
But you know, with scene it's like scene has got
to be if you want. He's getting cheered wildly and
it's at near the end. I don't want to spend
any more time, you know, critique and what's done is
done at this point. There's no no, It's not like
he's going to be around doing this next year. But
I wanted and he has, by the way correct to course,

(01:22:32):
since the Logan Pul promo, you know, it is about
his content has been more in touch with with what
the fans do into wrestling to watch rather than what
TKO executives are talking about every day.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
Yeah, and you know what, just to say one positive,
very positive thing about John Sam Peacemaker is awesome. I'm
loving the second season. It's so good.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
My son is telling me, like, you gotta we got
to watch season one because I only watch a little
bit of it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:55):
Yeah, get caught up. But yes, I know, and that's
I am. I am.

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
I don't self conscious as a word. I'm cognizant to
the fact that that Sina has such good will right
now with what he's doing outside of WWE, that when
I'm critical of him in WWE, people bring the opposite
of baggage. There's a good will with Sena because of
the Peacemaker and just you know, not totally, but just
you know, I think people see him as like this
good dude, Wade must be a bad person if he's

(01:23:22):
saying bad things about Scena, you know, like Casina just
seems like such a good, gregarious dude and all that,
But it's performative phoniness in WWE that is counterproductive, which
wouldn't bother me as much if he didn't say his
whole point was to leave things in a better place
than it was when he arrived. And I think he
accomplished that and contributed in certain ways because he was

(01:23:43):
the face of a brand that was very damaged and
was corrupt and dirty and stained, and he gave them
this friendly face. But specifically speaking, this year, he has
not done that. And I don't think we should give
him a free pass because Peacemaker is well scripted and
he's wonderful in it. Yeah, and I know you weren't
saying that, but like I'm and I don't feel I
have to explain. I think people my I think the

(01:24:04):
audience who listens to me knows. You can think John
Cene is good in one thing, but also, you know,
be critical of of of aspects of what he's doing
in in you know, the train that brought him here,
which is dubble to be in you know that fan base.

Speaker 4 (01:24:17):
What do you think he did with his Vince mcman bust?
Oh god, I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:24:21):
I mean that's a whole.

Speaker 4 (01:24:24):
Gesting like, my god, you had bus made of yourself
to give to people that came to your birthday party.

Speaker 1 (01:24:32):
What it's there are people who are in a la
la land that I can't even imagine putting myself in
or trying or understanding. But you know, he Vince Mann
did have that that portrait of himself, that painting of
himself above his couch, like thirty years ago.

Speaker 3 (01:24:48):
That that got.

Speaker 1 (01:24:49):
Out in some I don't know if it was a
magazine article or something. So some people are just you know, narcissists.

Speaker 4 (01:24:55):
Oh I have threatened my gal. It's like, hey, I'm
gonna get like a pick a painting of me he
sprawled out on a bear skin rug.

Speaker 3 (01:25:04):
Oh, film it all right?

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
Shifting to a w we got the five year anniversary, Sara,
six year at it?

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
Thank you? Yes, the six looks like a five in
front of me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
I know, it's been six the six year anniversary of
Dynamite Tomorrow Night two and a half hour.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
Special, and it is a little.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
Bit of a mishmash of a lineup, but you know,
they shouldn't have to give a pay per view quality
lineup away.

Speaker 3 (01:25:30):
Put a lot of stars on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:25:31):
Keny Omega wrestling, notably with Broddo, a nice breakout take
team that aw could be doing more with to get
more out of them against the Young Bucks and Josh Alexander.
Also Kyle Fletcher and Arnge Cassidy of T and T
Title Online on Dynamite as opposed to Collision, the return
of Jurassic Express, which is fun, timeless. Tony Storm returns.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
To Hollywood, Florida.

Speaker 4 (01:25:50):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
Wheeler Nimri interfere against Darby Allen Chris statt Lander mixed
tag team match, and you know Marina that there's an
ulty to seeing her wrestle, and Wheeler is of course wonderful.
And now people are throwing things at me because I
just said that, and then they're the top billing is
is Trios match hanging that page Paros Joe against John Moxley,
Danny Garcia, Daniel Garcia and Claudio Costig Noley, What do

(01:26:15):
you I think it's a solid lineup, you know for
for a two and f R special celebrating six years You're, uh,
what stands out here? And I don't think there's like
this just definitive that's the main event people are tuning
in for. It's an ensemble of some interesting matches with
some you know, pretty big current aw names.

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
Yeah, it's to me too many tag team matches. You know,
you have two trios matches and a mixed tag and
I just I don't need that many on one show,
only one singles match so far. You know, they may
add to it, but yeah, I don't know. I mean
that you could go with the TNT Championship match. I
think it's I would be surprised if that would have

(01:26:57):
been like the featured match when Hall of Graham was
in it. Maybe I would be wrong because Tony Kahan
created the character and loves the character. But Orange Cassidy,
given his history and everything else with the company, I
think you could. You'd be I think would be better
received than going with Fletcher and Hologram would have. But yeah,
I don't know. Maybe it's as simple as well, you

(01:27:19):
got the original three of the four EVPs in one
match you go with that one. Kenny Omega Brodido against
the Young Bucks and Josh Alexander.

Speaker 3 (01:27:29):
How do you feeling about the Young Bucks right now?

Speaker 4 (01:27:32):
They're fun? I mean joy, I wish it were a
little more focused. It just kind of seems like they
come up with the weekly gag and they're they're fun gags,
but that's it, Like what are they? And this might
be more on Tony than them, right and maybe Tony's
coming up with those gags. I don't know, but it
just feels like there's thought being put into that kind

(01:27:52):
of thing and not enough into where, you know, big
picture where these guys are going.

Speaker 1 (01:28:00):
Kyle Fletcher coming out of the the loss to Hangman,
the way he how do you feel about the way
he reacted to the loss, and do you think coming
into this week he is in a stronger position than
you thought after losing to Hangman or a week or
about the same.

Speaker 4 (01:28:17):
If you saw the pay per view, then I think
he is in a much better position. If you didn't
see the pay per view, I don't know. I wasn't
allowed by what he had to say on last week ago.
It was solid but not you know, I really wanted
to see him hit a home run and I didn't
feel like he did. I think he may have got

(01:28:38):
a single the if you watch Collision. I don't know
why you would think anything has changed because he he
talked about it even after the match. It was about domination.
He had a fifty to fifty match with Command. Yep,
come on, and I know people like the match, and
that's great, but there's a time and a place and

(01:29:02):
him coming off a key loss, and the big thing
being how is he going to respond to that? Hangman
Page set it up? And he goes out there and
just works a way needlessly competitive match that goes too long,
and then calls it domination. No that that's not great
follow up. And I didn't like that at all. I

(01:29:23):
thought it, you know, I mean nothing against Commander, didn't
even have to be Commander, but he should have plowed
through somebody on that show and in his first match
after losing to Hangman Page, and instead it was just
now business as usual, nothing's changed. He's just gonna you know,
of course, you're gonna have a needlessly long competitive match.
It's aw.

Speaker 9 (01:29:42):
I'm Chris Maitland I'm Justin McClellan. We host Wrestling Coast
to Coast, a podcast with independent wrestling.

Speaker 10 (01:29:48):
Every week, Chris and I review a different show or
talk about important topics from around the indie wrestling world.

Speaker 9 (01:29:53):
Learn about the hot underground stars and the future main eventors.
For anyone else, you can reach us that Torch Coast
to Coast at gmail dot com and me on Blue
Sky at Mind of Maitland.

Speaker 10 (01:30:03):
You can reach me at Blue Sky at Justin McClelland.

Speaker 9 (01:30:06):
Find the show on your PW torch daily Cast podcast feed,
search PW Torch on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Speaker 10 (01:30:14):
Also stream the latest shows on pwtorch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
How do you fee about Jurassic Express reuniting? I mean, I
think having anniversary show, Perry gone for a long time,
Lucas Hoors gone for a long time, fans are gonna.

Speaker 3 (01:30:29):
Like to sing their music? Is this good use.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
All and all of one kind of cleansing Jackperry of
the of because the heel character was so based on
like behind the scenes metas nonsense was see on punk
and in a way it was sort of go away
heat and then if he affiliates with the Bucks. Then
you're reminding people of the punk stuff, and I like
this break from that. I don't know, you know, I mean, ideally,

(01:30:56):
would Jack Perry be in a better place as a
you know, so called pillar at this point is a
heel or face rather than just sort of oh he's
back in that kind of you know, upper mid card
gimmicky tag team, uh pairing. Yeah, ideally, but it's been
a bumpy road. I'm okay with this, how about you.

Speaker 4 (01:31:15):
I'm fine with it. Jack Perry, to me is not
a pillar, just like Sammy Gavara is not a pillar.
It was a nice thing to call them, and I
can see why they did, and the hope and expectation
was there that they were going to be major stars.
And I think Perry is in a better place than
Sammy obviously, but I don't see him. You know, they've
they've brought in so many different people since those days,

(01:31:35):
and yeah, he's I just think this is the right
role for him right now. I'm not trying to I think,
you know, I like his work. It's not that I
am completely down on him or anything, but as yeah,
you nailed it on the what he was doing as
a heel. I don't think like just having him return
is a baby face on his own would have really
caught fire at all. So I think, yeah, I go

(01:31:55):
back to this, and people are gonna have some fun
with it. And I know he's said in an inner
be he wants to have it be a little darker,
and so let's see what they've got should be fun.

Speaker 3 (01:32:03):
Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Do they put a new spin on this or is
making it darker trying to do something.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
That goes against the entire core of why people like this?

Speaker 1 (01:32:15):
Yeah, And I just I don't know, you know, I mean,
I'm for creativity, but I also haven't seen personally and
like Samy Cabar and Jack Peary especially and sometimes MGF.

Speaker 3 (01:32:25):
Even when you talk about like these pillars, I.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
Haven't seen a a maturity and and a scope of
knowledge where I trust their booking instincts in terms of
like how to book themselves. Like it does sort of
feel like this would be cool to do this month
instead of an eye on the integrity of the character,
long term story arcs and that kind of thing. And

(01:32:49):
you know, just like you know, Sammy, can't you know
posturing for the camera before it does a high spot
and Jack Perry leaning too much on stuff that you know,
if you're on the line all the time, you think
that's what everybody is thinking, but it isn't really big
picture of the right thing to be doing to become
a draw. So when he goes we're gonna be a
little dark, I'm like, okay, I'm prove. You got to
prove to me. You got to prove to me that
this is a good move. I suppose just leaning in

(01:33:10):
on the nostalgia in the fun and why why why
force something to be different when fans are super into
this right now.

Speaker 4 (01:33:17):
I admire though, just not completely reboot things that those
those kind of nostalgia kicks tend to end pretty quickly.
People like get their fix and move on. So I
think it is good to have a little wrinkle, But
we got to see what that new twist is. And
the other I think Darry was the other pillar. What
the hell is going on with him? There's all this
need for flamethrower And I'm not a fan, I really

(01:33:43):
am high. I love Darby's work, but what they've done
with him lately, it's no, it's not work. He doesn't
need this stuff. They're they're just going too far with
him needing prompts and silliness and and big stunts all
the time, like make those stunts matter. And for the
love of God, can you make fire matter? I mean

(01:34:05):
people on fire and they show up for work and
they're just fine. This is followed up by Derby the
time you like, set Jack Perry's pants on fire, and
oh my god, Jack Perry's on fire, and then he
comes back and wins the match with a freaking knee strike,
Like come on, this is just nonsense.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
Yeah, I use this a lot, but it's like a
fourth grader going, what to be cool if we did this?
And there's and some of these ideas can work, but
you have to, like you say, have proportionate follow up.
You can't just blow something up and then go that
was fun and walk away or said something on fire there.
It needs to be part of a context that makes sense.
And it makes no sense that how they follow up

(01:34:45):
on people threatening to or actually setting people on fire,
putting plastic bags over their head and jecting them with needles.
A lot of this is in Moxley's vicinity. And I
don't know if Moxley, you know, like you told me.
As he's heading in aw He's like, I would have
taken less money to go do CCW and just be
you know, hardcore, over the top, garbage violent wrestling like
that is the itch he likes to scratch, But I

(01:35:07):
don't know that he wouldn't rather have it in the
context of more follow up. I don't know if he
if he and Darby are a weak point on that
or Tony Khan is where Tony Khan's like, Okay, we
did that, that was cool. Now we're going to move to
this and they just sort of throw their hands up,
but I would obviously like to see. It's hard to
take seriously anyone getting punished for anything. If people setting

(01:35:31):
people on fire trying to suffocate them leads to them
getting to go through the metal detector and for work
the next week and they get their paychecks and everyone
just goes, that was dastardly. But now it's time to
talk about whether it des theer's a title.

Speaker 3 (01:35:42):
Match, like whoa whoa whoa whoa?

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
He that was attempted murder And if you want that,
the reason you do it should because you wanted to
have ramifications. You want it to count for something. And
when you don't follow up on it, you're training your
audience to go, don't take anythwhere, don seriously, it's just
here for your ephemeral entertainment.

Speaker 4 (01:35:57):
Derby is said, two people on fire and dragged another
guy behind a truck in a body bag, and he's
never once been punished. Yep is the babyfish. This is stupid,
I know, I know.

Speaker 1 (01:36:10):
And and Darby is a compelling character, which is you
know what what is what? What is frustrating about this
is he doesn't need to do this stuff and it
comes across, as you know, gimmicky and showy, and again
it it does damage to everything else because it's hard
to take anything else, anyone to seriously win. I mean,

(01:36:31):
in a sense, the flamethrower is like, hey, stay away
or else. It's different than literally pouring lighter fluid on
someone and dropping a match.

Speaker 3 (01:36:37):
So it's it.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
But again, like so many things, you can defend them
in the moment independently, but you can't do things independently
and not take into account the context and how frequently
you've been doing it and what the follow up is
going to be? Same thing with ref bumps or run
and finishes on a TV show or a pay per view.
You can justify each and every one of them if
you're on an island, but you need to have a
leader who goes, wait, we're doing that in two other

(01:36:59):
matches later. We can't do it in the premlim match.
Come up with a different finish. Oh wait, we don't
have a follow up for this, or no, we've done
too much fire lately. It's going to remind people of
how there's no ramifications. People try to sit people on fire.
Let's not do the flame flamethrower. Let's instead do this.
That's where you know. Ultimately the buck stops of Tony Kahn.
He wants it to, so we're gonna put it there.
There's there should be more maturity to the follow up.

Speaker 4 (01:37:22):
And yes, folks, I know WWE has done stupid things too.
I don't play that yet. They get called up for
their stupidity. Aw gets called up for their stupidity.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
Yes, one hundred percent, not that it's like usually. But
he's getting little bit more TV time right now, Powerhouse Hops.
I want him to grow. Yes, I don't need him
doing clothes lines and no selling and puffing his chest
out and then doing that lip snarl. Thing as if
that's the be all end all of facial expressions and

(01:37:53):
conveying emotions. He should be further along at this point.
And I don't just blame him. I mean it's up
It's up to Tony Kahan and the support team to go.
We should be I mean, obviously Moxy likes him, you know,
when he got injured against him, and then his comeback match,
it's like, oh, let's let's pick up or left off,
you know, smoke Joe's hanging out with him, and I

(01:38:13):
think he can learn from Joe. But you you just
sort of hover in the spot that Powerhouse has been
in for as long as he has, and eventually people
just go, Okay, I'm not gonna get excited about this guy,
cause he's just gonna be here. He's gonna be a
third guy in any faction he's in, and he's going
to do the same three offensive moves and no sell
and snarl and and every every year and a half
they'll do something yet to personalize him, and then they'll

(01:38:34):
just drop it, you know, just decide if you're gonna
push him or not. And I don't know, maybe they
just have decided he doesn't have it in him, and
so he's just gonna be a utility guy. I think
there's more there, but how they're featuring him either now
was the start of something that I'll be happy with
two months from now, or it's going to resemble others starting,
you know, start and stops where there's no follow up
and he just ends up in a similar spot six

(01:38:56):
months from now.

Speaker 4 (01:38:57):
I hope not. What do you think, Jason, I what
you're saying is it's true that they It just is
what it is. I don't know that they look at
him and think like, oh, he can't do it. It's
just so it's not his time. Let's put him with Moxley.
He's a trios champion. That's great. What more people want?
And no, I want a lot more for that character.
He the book of hob stuff was compelling and it
just ended there there. There hasn't been any follow up

(01:39:19):
to it. He just he's a guy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:21):
I think it's stop compelling. I was, I was interested,
but I don't think it ever. I just don't think
it had that next layer. It felt like an I'd
show that that had a starting point but didn't have
I'm yeah, I mean, I'm I'm parsing a little bit here,
but like even that, I wanted more out of it.

Speaker 4 (01:39:38):
Yeah, and that's fair, Yeah for sure, but it just
it was something we haven't had anything since then. Don't
have any character development for this guy. He just I
don't even remember how he ended up turning, but he
turned and he's just been a babyface and doesn't really
I think he had the title match with Moxley when
he came back and that was about it. Otherwise as

(01:40:00):
he you know, I can't other than the trio is thing.
He's just kind of been spinning his wheels. And then
he's a guy they he's one of those young guys
if they have him under contract long enough that they
should be you know, building around.

Speaker 3 (01:40:11):
Yeah, yep, And I mean just try it. Rotate him in.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
You know, you're you're you're short on top baby faces,
and he's somebody who at this point, you know, you'd
like him to be turnkey, ready to just drop in
and uh and.

Speaker 3 (01:40:23):
Be a guy that you could go, you know what.

Speaker 1 (01:40:25):
It'd be nice to have will ospray here or swerve.
But in the meantime, this is a chance for Hobbs.

Speaker 4 (01:40:31):
And Hobbs doesn't need to be booked like everyone else.
Hobbs can plow through people. It's okay to have shortmatches totally.

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
You don't have to wait for the Way Killer Pro
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pw.

Speaker 3 (01:40:55):
Torch dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
My written report will tell you what's happening in detail
in case you missed the show, and it will also
analyze key segments and give my random thoughts quips on
what I am watching as it airs. So check it
out every Monday night and Tuesday night at pw torch
dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews. I
cover those live at pw torch dot com with a

(01:41:16):
detailed written report with star ratings. And of course you
can find other TV reports from other contributors to PW
torch such as nxt roh Impact Wrestling, and more. Check
it out pw torch dot com your first stop for
TV and pay per view written reports. Anything else in

(01:41:41):
AW before I want to talk about Ricky starts in
XT next.

Speaker 4 (01:41:44):
Yeah, I'm just very curious to see what they do
for Title Tuesday going ahead to head with that NXT
though that's gonna have the TNA crossover, and you know
they NXT is really going on a lot for that one.
That feels like a pretty big deal to have those
elimination matches, and then the guarant I think they're essentially

(01:42:05):
saying there has to be a winner between the Hardy's
and Dark State and the title versus Title. That's big,
and so what does AW do? I hope it's not
as uneventful as like the Battle of the Belt shows,
where yeah, we have title matches, it's just ones you
don't care about, maybe one you do, and that's about it.
And so this is I guess I'm curiously what the

(01:42:26):
approach is too, Like do they look at oh man,
they're going with that we're the ones moving nights. Do
we really want to have egg on our face by
loading up this show? And then you know, maybe because
we're the ones moving nights not getting a very good number,
and do we just play it cool for that night
or do we really load it up? And I'm not
sure what they'll do.

Speaker 1 (01:42:45):
And also are we gonna figure out what the actual
numbers are? Last week was weird because she sets the numbers,
got out the numbers I first reported, I then corrected,
and then I uncorrected almost instantly because I was like, wait,
my source was right, the you know, the CW had
the same number I had internally, But then what's the site.

Speaker 4 (01:43:05):
That published Programming Insider.

Speaker 1 (01:43:07):
Yeah, program Inside they had a different number. And then
that got repeated by other entities who did not credit
Programming Insider. But they might have just been copying them
and not giving credit.

Speaker 4 (01:43:16):
Unfortunately, definitely, And I don't know who. I shouldn't say.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
That, but yeah, and then Aw's texting me, going do
you know the real number? And I'm like, what is
your number? Well, like I think I would think Time
Warner Media TBSD that you guys wild probably have the
real number. Is it different than mine? And we're seeing
something different, but we're looking at Programming Insider too, and
I'm like, you don't you pay for the service. You
tell me you helped me out here, so I know.

Speaker 4 (01:43:41):
And Brandon Thurston had some kind of an explanation that
you know, he thought they that Programming Insider would ultimately
end up maybe running an update, but it had never
happen that I'm looking right now just to make sure
it hasn't happened since the last time I looked, But
they hadn't. I haven't had numbers for SmackDown, what alone
Collision of the weekend. They have nothing right now since

(01:44:02):
last Thursday, and as far as AW is concerned, it
looks like they just kept the numbers the same.

Speaker 1 (01:44:09):
So yeah, Brandon Thurston, he said that this is on Friday.
Our data here is unchanged from what we initially reported.
I'm aware Programming Insider has reported lower numbers for both
this episode of Dynamite and Tuesday's nxt PW Torch independently
reported data for Dynamite that is consistent with the data
for Dynamite that we've sourced separately.

Speaker 3 (01:44:28):
Here.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
I was messaging back forth with Brandon, and we're trying
to figure this out. He goes, I also have other
data from other cable programs on Wednesday that are broadly
different than what Programming Insider reported for Wednesday. I brought
this to the attention of Douglas Pucci, reports ratings for
Programming Insider. He suggested it's possible to sourcing at the moment.
It's based on panel only data, which does refer to
changes Nielson announced earlier this month and that he would

(01:44:50):
get weekly numbers later that might be updated. So and
I haven't looked into the panel reporting discrepancy, but nevertheless,
the point is there something we're going on with, you know,
whatever Boxer are being checked to pulled up. So hopefully
that gets resolved by the time we get to the
Tuesday battle, because I'm intrigued with that in a way.
You know, AW could have said let's do Blood and
Guts then or something big, but they have They're not

(01:45:11):
building towards something so big that everybody is looking forward
to this, this battle. They might wave the white flag
a little bit on it and not try because then
it's less embarrassing. They're six out of versus shows a
week before. We're now we're looking ahead to Blood and Guts.
You guys, it's your night. We're gonna put a show
on the air, but are gonna low key it. And
I don't disagree with that to be honest as an approach.

Speaker 4 (01:45:30):
Yeah, and they're gonna have probably a smaller audience. Well,
I guess I don't know the MLB schedule, but I
would think both NXT and AW are probably gonna have
games running against them this week, which is gonna kind
of hurt aw, especially because nxt IS is gonna be
on the same night. So if you're gonna watch it, you're
gonna watch it. We're aw moving Knights. Can they get
the word out? They certainly can online, but as far

(01:45:52):
as like direct to that audience, if there's people watching
baseball playoffs instead, it might be a little bit trickier.
So yeah, I'm very curious to see how they end
up handling that. I would think the numbers that you
and Brandon had just because they were so similar to
the week before, you know, whereas both shows took a
big drop if you're looking at the Programming Insider numbers

(01:46:14):
and not like it's you know, impossible, but it's just
seemed like, why would they drop is that much both
of them if it were just one of them, Like okay,
rough week. But I'm guessing that what you guys had
are the accurate numbers on that, But I guess, so
hopefully we find out.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30):
And Brandon didn't get the numbers I had until he
had reported Programming Insider numbers and then he reached out
to some sources that he doesn't bug every week and
then they go, oh, we got the Torches numbers, and
then he followed up with that, and so he did.
He did enough digging through his sources to make me
feel comfortable with my numbers being either real or at
least widely circulated, and not just my source accidentally hitting

(01:46:52):
a wrong button when he, you know, checked what box
to check.

Speaker 3 (01:46:56):
So that's a lot of inside baseball.

Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
And normally the numbers all met up and it's it's
it's steady and all that. So we'll get programming inside
a couple more days to kind of figure things out
when you know, when we get the numbers on tonight's XTAM,
Tomorrow's Dynamite, normally, you know, I mean, what the ratings
are what they are now, we don't have we don't
have the year to your consistency, because everybody changed networks
in the last year so or or added like a

(01:47:18):
streaming option like Dynamite, so every there's really this has
been the least interesting year for ratings in the sense
of using it to get a real sense of a
trend for each individual show. So there's all these caveats. Well,
Dynamite numbers are down, but hey, some people are watching
on Max. We don't know how many. I don't think
you've been eight W knows and NXT is up compared

(01:47:39):
to AW. But that's not fair to a W because
NXT's on the CW, which reaches more people than USA Netflix.

Speaker 3 (01:47:44):
Who knows that. He's a completely different way of measuring
the audience than Yeah does.

Speaker 4 (01:47:48):
I don't even know what to make of those No.

Speaker 1 (01:47:50):
I mean, they're not good no matter how you look
at it. But they're not great. Yeah, they're not good.
They're for sure not great. They're not good, but they're
also not comparable to USA network number. Yeah, it's just
it's a different realm. That's a whole of the discussion.
Jason op tell people about your website and your podcast,
and then we'll talk about Ricky Stark, says NXT champion.

Speaker 4 (01:48:10):
Oh absolutely. Pro wrestling dot Net is the website if
you're looking for a live review of a television show,
news update and editorial. We got you covered again. It's
Pro wrestling dot Net. Pro Wrestling Boom is the free
weekly podcast that I do. Do a search for Pro
Wrestling Boom on Apple podcasts wherever you get your podcasts,
and please subscribe to that, and then if you are
interested in taking the dot net experience to a new level,

(01:48:32):
we do have an ad free version of the website
that has a ton of exclusive audio content that is
also ad free. Everything becomes ad free when you become
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visit PW Membership dot net. We have the audio reviews
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audio reviews, so they're there for your first thing in

(01:48:53):
the morning or even that night if you're a night owl,
and obviously the pay reviews the pls. I do a
Q and a audio show on Mondays, and then the
flagship show is the dot netweekly audio show that I
do with Jake Barnett on Fridays discussing all the news
of the week and typically going in ninety minutes, sometimes
even longer lately, but yeah, that is the flagship show.

(01:49:13):
And if you are interested in membership again, it's PW
Membership dot net. But we also have a Patreon option.
If audio is your jam and you don't care so
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(01:49:35):
and yeah, and if you have any questions on anything,
feel free to reach out to me on social media,
blue Sky or that other one at pro wrestling Net.

Speaker 1 (01:49:43):
Speaking of which, if you're disgusted with corporate streaming and
subscription services, if you're disgusted with the ownership and the
leadership and the decisions they make, there's yes, support your
local library canopy is a great way to get streaming
move and all that. But also supporting true small independent

(01:50:04):
businesses like Jason's in mine is one way you can
show support. It's I say that with obviously full of
self interest, and I'm saying support you know, p W George,
because hey, I want us to be successful. But you know,
keep that in mind too when when you're deciding you know,
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to prioritize keeping or cutting or adding you know, true
small businesses is uh, you know are are needing you

(01:50:25):
guys more than ever you know with with the lay
so so yeah, PW membership dot net and uh, you
know You're gonna get a lot a lot of Jason
in return through moneyf you enjoy him here on this show,
and a nice ad free version of your website, which
is so nice. I mean, uh, you know, and I'm
I'm visiting both versions of my side all the time,
and it's just like, you know, I wish there were

(01:50:48):
more sites that that. I like, websites that gave me
a chance to get in every version of them. Oh yeah,
you know, like I just because I feel good supporting them,
and and it's just I go more often. So it's
it's it's nice along which is the exclusive archives and
exclusive content you won't get on the free site, just
the nice streamlined here's a tab I hit refresh, and
it's just gonna be a nice, nice clean experience.

Speaker 11 (01:51:15):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Past Cast. Every
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Speaker 4 (01:51:33):
The WWF and WCW and all.

Speaker 11 (01:51:35):
The happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time,
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Speaker 3 (01:51:55):
All right, Ricky Starks, did you expect who's gonna win?
Going it?

Speaker 4 (01:52:02):
I was open to that possibility. I think I may
have predicted that he would go over, but I think
it was mostly because it just feels like it's time
for Obafemi to get out of there, to move on,
hopefully to come to the main roster. Hopefully that's what
the plan is. If he's going to stick around for
a while, Okay, you can do the rematch and things

(01:52:24):
like that. But it did feel like he was getting
to the point where they beating everybody, kind of like
telling me sm in Aw like, what's left for her
to do as champion? Well, we didn't find out because
they made the title championship because it was time and
I kind of felt like that with Oba, you could
have done Oba against more t and A wrestlers or whatever.
But yeah, I kind of felt like it was time.

(01:52:44):
And Ricky Saints now being the NXT champion, I guess
I was a little surprised maybe that we didn't get
a healed turn. I just don't know how over Ricky is.
It's hard to get a feel for that, but I
think we're gonna find out quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:52:57):
Is Ricky Saints and I I'm nervous even bring it up,
But is he a possibility for sen Night's main event
or a one off TV appearance? I know vinsick Man
would sort of indiscriminately bring somebody out from an XT
and just disregard the what it would do to how
they were portrayed in NXT, you know, with Adam Adam
Cole as one of the standout examples of that, with

(01:53:19):
Coluin Riley, do you is there a chance that that
you could see that happening and it being a good thing,
Like Ricky Saints gets a moment with John Cena as
NXT champion. See, it's like a number one this title
I want to win. I haven't thought this through enough
to think of all the pros and cons of doing it.
But and by the way, shoots are out there too,
that's possibly seen as a tag match along the way too,
not necessarily his I doubt his final man should be

(01:53:40):
a tag match, but who knows. I mean, when even
huntercent Roll that out, but there could be enough. You know,
he already had that the tag match with Logan against
Jay and Cody. So yeah, what do you think about
Saints as somebody who, yeah, give a little up to him,
put him on one of the get him in the
ring with Sena one way or another.

Speaker 4 (01:53:55):
I like final opponent, believing on that one.

Speaker 3 (01:53:59):
Yeah, but like I.

Speaker 4 (01:54:02):
Wouldn't mind seeing them give him a little rub just
or just a little love by putting him on a
Saturday Nights main events and and kind of showcase the
XTACH champion. But I do think, like, keep an eye
on Oba. It's it's a long shot, but with him
being you know, losing that championship, maybe he does come
up and that's the guy you'll be seen it. To

(01:54:22):
get some rubb on or to get that big moment
done the way out.

Speaker 3 (01:54:26):
That is what I would like to see.

Speaker 1 (01:54:28):
I mean, yeah, really, I mean I'm not saying that
it would it would be like you know, I already
said earlier in the show like scene, it could go huh,
you cynical.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
Pundits didn't think I was going to give back.

Speaker 1 (01:54:38):
It's like, yeah, okay, you did good in the end,
but did some damage along the way, but I I
would like to see I would like to see that,
just have a true transition moment. Right now, Oba has
zero votes in our poll, like people want to Dunther's ahead,
huss Bold ahead, Drew McIntyre second place, Dominic third, bron
Breaker fourth, h see onm Punkin seth Rollins down there

(01:55:01):
getting votes. So to me, that is all the more
reason to do it is you got two and a
half months. Tell a story, like, have something memorable happen
to somebody who is is has the the bulk of
their career ahead of them. I mean, he's twenty seven
years old. It's like the time to strike is now
and you don't have enough. There's not going to be

(01:55:23):
an opportunity to do it now. You could do Sena
and Oba Femi against two other people or something. I mean,
I mean there's different ways you could.

Speaker 4 (01:55:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:55:30):
I mean, I through the take my child there as possive.
So I'm I'm I'm still you know, we're going full
circle here.

Speaker 4 (01:55:36):
But I'm guessing John's had his last loss to brock Leasure.
But I mean, I don't not envoising that, but I'm
kind of guessing that.

Speaker 1 (01:55:45):
Yeah, and you don't want to do a screwy finish
where Sina wins through cheating. But you also don't want
to bury somebody who's supposed to get a boost by
just sharing the ring with you. But you can, I mean,
you can have a spirited, straightforward, fourteen minute match sena
win and then afterwards he lifts the guy up and
raises his arm and go, this guy's for real, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:56:04):
And I mean I would do that with Ricky Saints
before I would do that with Oba Fami.

Speaker 1 (01:56:08):
Yes, that's the thing I'm imagining on my head with
ob and I'm like, Ricky Saints, Yes, and that's a
spirit in which I introduced that.

Speaker 3 (01:56:16):
But then you know, NXT.

Speaker 1 (01:56:18):
People are gonna be like, yeah, I mean XT is
the developmental brand, it's not quote the main roster. But
do you want the existing champers into a guy on
his way out who just got destroyed by Brock?

Speaker 3 (01:56:27):
Is that? How do you?

Speaker 4 (01:56:29):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
In certain ways, you can imagine somebody in corporate or
in creative going this is good for Ricky, and I
get why someone would think that, but they have to
take into account the average fan of NXT wanting some
pride in their champion, not losing to a guy who
got plowed through by brock Lessner.

Speaker 4 (01:56:44):
Yeah, and I mean I'm now kind of thinking about,
like all the Ring of Honor wrestlers that pop up
on AW with titled beltsin just lose.

Speaker 3 (01:56:53):
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:56:54):
I mean, it's John Cena, so it would be at
least a high profile person that's as beating him. But still, yeah,
I would think that probably best just to leave. If
it's not Oba Semi beating him, I guess I wouldn't
do Oba or Ricky Saints. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:57:13):
I mean, and the reason I'm bringing any of this
stuff up is I'm just again kind of struggling to
come up with something other than Drew McIntyre cuts a
couple promos seen and then he bitches about it the
next week and says he was screwed. And I think
that's a path of the least resistance right now.

Speaker 4 (01:57:25):
Boy, they've got to watch it. They're they're having Drew
take way too many high profile losses, I.

Speaker 1 (01:57:30):
Know, and you know, it does get to the point
where you just think they don't see him as you know,
a guy who really can be a top, top centerpiece
act that they just they don't see him that way,
but boy when people figure that out, if the audience
sees it that.

Speaker 3 (01:57:48):
Way, it's gonna diminish quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (01:57:50):
All Right, We ran along with this show, so we're
gonna cut off the free portion here and come back
with our VP exclusive after show that runs around sixteen
seventeen minutes, discussing Bound for Glory, TNA Bound for Glory,
the Hardy's against the Team three D, the Dudleys, the
main event world title match, a shake up in the
women's title situation that we'll get into, and look at

(01:58:12):
the undercard, including a really fun X Division match.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
So that's coming up.

Speaker 1 (01:58:15):
For our VIP members on the PW Torch side of things,
and also Pro Wrestling dot Net members remembers, support a
small business you believe in PW Torch dot Com slash
Go VIP is a good way to do that, and
also PW membership dot Net for details on supporting Jason
Powell over at Pro Wrestling dot Net and his team.
Thank you everybody on the free side of things, and

(01:58:35):
to the existing VIP and dot net members, thank you
first of all, and now we'll move to the VP
Exclusive after show.

Speaker 3 (01:58:42):
You don't have to do anything else, We'll float right
into that.

Speaker 1 (01:58:44):
Now, invite you to email the show with feedback or
questions or comments. That email address is Wadekeller Podcast at

(01:59:08):
petwtorch dot com. That's Wadekeller Podcast at pw torch dot com.
Also welcome your feedback on Twitter. Even follow us on
Twitter at pw torch and follow me at the Wadekeller.
That's at pw Torch and at the Wade Keller.

Speaker 4 (01:59:25):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
Jason Powell host them the free weekly Pro Wrestling Boom Podcast.
Each week, he'll hear the latest news and analysis from
me and my team at pro wrestling dot net along
with other pro wrestling media members. Plus, the Pro Wrestling
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the pro wrestling industry. Subscribe and Itunestitcher, Downcast, and all

(01:59:47):
your favorite secondary apps, or visit us directly at PW
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Speaker 1 (01:59:56):
Thanks for listening to our podcast. Did you know we
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Create a tab or bookmark, make it a daily stop.
Visit us throughout the day every day to keep up
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Speaker 5 (02:00:20):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts,
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(02:00:41):
and the paradise too, and we've done fun historical shows
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When shows where our guests will join me to talk
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We love variety and you can expect lots of it
at the prost Power. Detailed PW tors VIP subscription information

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on a list of all the VIP benefits is available
at PW torch vipinfo dot com and Yes, All VIP
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ad free VIP mobile site. See you in the Paradise.

Speaker 1 (02:01:23):
One way that you can help us sustain our schedule
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Speaker 3 (02:01:56):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 (02:02:00):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT eight years back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 7 (02:02:16):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT talks
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did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (02:02:29):
A PW Torch VIP membership doesn't just give you add
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(02:02:52):
wrestling's top newsmakers in the nineties, and also our podcast
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There's no larger, longer spanning pro wrestling podcast library than
that comes with a PW Torch VIP membership. Now we're
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(02:03:15):
interviews and special format podcasts that we've done throughout the years.
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