NEW MAILBAG: Keller & Heydorn talk Cena tapping, AEW's "cash prizes," Levesque's handling of fan backlash, Joe-Swerve-Hangman, MJF, more

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 3 (01:36):
Now PW Torch and Spreaker bring you the Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast. It's time for Wade and his co
host to dive into the listener mailbag.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
All right, Zach, We got a lot of mail.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Therefore, we're doing a special mailbag edition with Wade Keller
Pro Wrestling Podcast here on Wednesday, December seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
Zach Cadorn, my guest from Sports Illustrated UH and Brass
Ring Media and formerly PW Torch assistant editor who joins
me here on audio periodically, is back.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Zach. It is great to have you here. How's going?

Speaker 4 (02:15):
It's going great, going great. We've got a lot of
good questions to get through. And yeah, pump to pump
to beer, so glad to glad. I got the ask.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yes, any fun plans for Christmas?

Speaker 4 (02:25):
You know, you know, like my my kids are at
like the Prime Christmas Age, like Prime Santa Aid, so
they're they're super into it. So I'm foreseeing like a
a four am wake up call and uh and then
and and not a lot of sleep. But you know what,
I wouldn't trade it for anything though, either, So no,

(02:46):
just kind of staying at home and doing that thing.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Perfect, Okay, cool, let's not let's get to it here.
We'll start with John from Monroe, Michigan, who says, good afternoon.
Much of the criticism that WW is receiving about the
finish to John Cena's last match has to do with
the crowds reaction to John Cena tapping out. Jason Powell
over at progressing dot Net has never heard of him,
has criticized that ending since Sena quit, isn't it about

(03:12):
time that progressing gets modernized to the point where tapping
out is not view to some moral failing on the
part of the wrestler. Many badass men and women have
tapped out in You'll See and no one sees that
as an issue in that sport. If WWE and AW
make tapping out to be an acceptable practice, wouldn't this
have made the criticism of Scena tapping out a moot point?
Yes and no, Zach, I'll keep this brief and throw

(03:34):
you for your thoughts. I think the difference is normally
tapping out's fine, but John Cena turned that into his
mantra never give up, and the selling point of the
match with gnther as a heel was I'm going to
humiliate you by making you do something that you said
kids should never do, which is give up. The whole
premise is kind of weird, you know, like sometimes you
should give up. You know, if you're not good at hockey,

(03:54):
maybe basketball is your thing. If backball's not your thing,
maybe theater's your thing. Like it's actually okay to try
things and move on without framing it as quitting. So
I think advice to kid Zach is a little different
than advice if you're getting choked out. I think there
are two very different situations, and I think we should differentiate.
And if you're getting choked out and you're about to
retire and you fought your heart out and you kind

(04:15):
of grin and resign yourself and tap. If the storyline
weren't there, I think fans would have been more okay
with it. So this I think is really storyline specific.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
With Seena and Gouther. What do you think.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
I don't think that, you know, let me look, people
in WWE and AW. I mean, they do tap out
a lot, and it's only when the TapouT is emphasized,
like Gunther for example, a guy that doesn't really tap
out that much, and when when they lean into that
do you get the you tapped out reactions? And the

(04:50):
same thing with John Moxley with the equip maatch, like
you know, I don't think you have that kind of reaction,
but it's John Moxley and and with this being John Cena,
that is like both of those two storylines like on steroids,
because that's been his gimmick and mantra and thing for
for so long, and I think that's why people were,

(05:14):
you know, upset, and that's why there's so much heat
on the fact that Gunther you know, tapped him out.
So I think it's completely I mean, yes, do I
think that WW could be better and be smarter with
how they frame submissions, of course, of course, but in
this case it's more circumstantial around John Cena than it is.

(05:35):
You know, they don't talk about submissions.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
Right And and if if WW and a w Heart
really harped on the notion that tapping out is honorable,
it would take away the fans channing you tapped.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Out at heels.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
But I think you can have both, And I think
that's where kind of the nuances is. You want to
be able to have a babyface tap out and not
have think he's a quitter in a failure. But a
heel who says I will never do something that most
people that we have defined as a baseline in this
universe's culture, the canon of tapping out is it's an

(06:13):
honorable thing to do, and it's a chance you take
when you fight somebody who's really good, you might have
to tap out. If that's the baseline. A heel saying
I'll never do it makes them feel shallow or having
too big of an ego, or not understanding like you
win some, you lose some. The greats win a lot
more often than those who aren't great. But everyone in
a while, you tap the heel, going, I'd never do that. Now,

(06:35):
the heel is framing something honorable as humiliating, so you
want to rub it in when they ultimately do it.
So I think you can have both. But the key
is established that baseline at the beginning, which is show
wrestlers tapping out and have the announcers not hit you
over the head with it. We don't need Joe Testitor
turning it up to eleven going, it is so honorable

(06:57):
to tap, you know, like he can't help himself sometimes,
you know, like just be a little more subtle. But
over time then I think you can still humiliate and
not not humiliate, but you know, pester the heel and
and take an eye to the heel with a little
bit of a chant, rubbing it in if they do
tap out.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
I think so too. And also like I think it's
worth pointing out to that you know, there have been
you know, there have been times throughout WWE history, maybe
not like recent reason history, but you know, babyfaces do
tap out. John Michael's tapped out at WrestleMania. Raymisterios tapped
out a bunch like it does happen with with babyfaces
so it's not like every single babyface is like you

(07:37):
know this, this is on this path of like, oh
you can just you can never give up. I mean
they've established that that can be reasonable in some places.
In this case though, I mean the fact that this
John Seena had a lot to do with it, I
just don't think that can be understated.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yep, agreed, Agreed, all right, So next up, Derek Mitchell'll
stay on scene here and then move on to other topics.
Hope you're doing well. The conclusion of Saturday and main
event was quite something, wasn't it. John cena smile when
tapping out was a truly memorable moment. It seemed poetic,
as if he was finally at peace with the end
of his career. However, the live crowd clearly showed their displeasure,
chanting ufed up at Triple H as he led the

(08:14):
contingent to ringside and hugged Sena on the apron. I
will say, parenthetically, so don't forget it's obviously the majority
of people in the building did not see him smile.
That was very much as zoom in for people at
home on TV moment. So it just we want that
in context though emotions run high and logic runs low.
I understand the fan frustration. However, Sina tapping out to
Gunther will not define his legacy. It will only further

(08:39):
elevate Gunther's standing. This outcome was the best strategic choice.
A scene of victory would have drawn criticism for not
putting Guther over, while a simple pass out with a
fueled arguments about the move's legitimacy. The definitive TapouT is
not an act of quitting, nor does it negate his
never give up mantra. Instead, it respects the opponent seen

(09:00):
as enduring legacy rests on his character in unwavering all
American heroic Babyface, who embodied anti authority individualism, connecting deeply
with children and mainstream audiences through his iconic hip hop attire,
colorful T shirts and Yes Georges. Similar to how polarizing
finales of all time great series such as The Sopranos
and Game of Thrones failed to undermine their legacy, this

(09:22):
ending will not diminish John Cena's life dairy career. I
love to hear your thoughts on what happened on Science
of main Event, as well as Seena tapping.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Out instead of passing out. Yeah, I've defended that aspect too, Zach.
The smile.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
I saw it as you know, I know it's overused term,
but I'll say it.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
You know it was cinema.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
It was Sena very deliberately sending a message, not to
the fans of the building. You didn't see it, but
the defans at home. It's okay, it's okay, you know
it's it's yeah. I mean there's real life comparisons, you know,
two moments where you sort of feel at peace.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
I was gonna.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Say, if you have to put a dog down, you know,
sometimes they give you kind of a look and a
little pat and I know a couple of dogs ago.
Did you know, I really felt there was an acceptance. Yeah,
I'm not feeling well and I understand the soccer cercle
life and what your thank you And I mean, I'm
gonna teer up here saying it, but I think you
can get that single. I So that's a very dramatic

(10:19):
version of this, but I think it was Sena telling
his fans I'm at peace.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
I'm okay.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
I said, I didn't have a lot left. That's why
I'm retiring. I'm at that age going through was a
better man. I put up a fight, so I liked it,
and I'm not sure I fully understand people not liking
it once they see it, once it's presented through that lens.
But and then three to you, I think Sena's bag
is just part of it here in that Sena has

(10:46):
exaggerated cartoonish facial expressions, and there are aspects of what
he has done, and especially I'm the last real champion
where you're like, he's kind of in it for himself
a little bit while marketing himself as the most go along,
get along giving guy, and so was a smile, sort
of like whatever, I'm doing the job that Triple Ah

(11:11):
forced me to do, so I'll smile in defiance of it.
But y'all know this isn't really you know, the whatever
I don't like. I'm not even quite sure what people
reading into, but I think they saw it as seen
it being disrespectful to the moment or in defiance of
the moment, rather than what I believe to be true,
which is it's exactly the moment he wanted, and he
played it. He portrayed exactly how he wanted. Anytime you're

(11:36):
watching WWE raw or SmackDown or aw Dynamite in particular.
Send us an email if you've got thoughts on the
show or a topic you want us to address or
a question for us. Wade Keller Podcast at pwtorch dot com.
Wade Keller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If there's anything
else going on in pro wrestling that you want us
to address on our main podcast during our mailbank segments,

(11:58):
that same email applies Wade Keller pod cast at pw
torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know
what you think of what we're saying, and let us
know what you want us to talk about and ask
us specific questions. Wade Keller Podcast at pw torch dot com.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Zach your thoughts.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
I completely agree with you. I I mean, look, I
think John Cena, you know, I don't know how much
you can take from him, that's face value. I just
I just don't know. I just don't that. You know,
you don't know who the real John Cena is. You
don't know any of that, and so I you know,
can admit that. Okay, maybe people's antennas are up on

(12:39):
this when you when you get a finish like that,
but when you watch the match and you watch really
the retirement run and not just the run itself like
on TV as part of the show, but like all
the media that he did, and like I to me,
he was basically telling you that this is this is
how it's going to go, like this is where, this

(12:59):
is how it's gonna go. And I think you know,
the smile was like played well enough by him, where
to me it was clear as day that that's what
he was doing. That it was a everything's okay type
of thing. I'm letting I'm letting this go, and not
some kind of arrogant just doesn't matter thing. I mean.

(13:21):
And look, you've seen that with John Cena before. You
can go to his first promo after losing the title
to Cody and you get a completely different smile. Like
I'm not saying that that type of attitude and that
type of that type of work from from John Cena
hasn't been present this year, but on that night, to me,

(13:43):
that that smile put put everything over like it it
it it was him, and it was WWE, and it
was Paul Lavec like pushing their chips fully in on
the moment, like there was absolutely no hedge, and I
think with with with paula Vec especially like his booking,
like there's always some kind of heads right, this guy lost,
but he lost this way, and then that guy helped

(14:04):
and then this guy really didn't lose. Or she she
beats somebody, but she helps somebody, and so it's like
no one ever really wins or loses. And and here
like you got a clear winner and gun Thor in
every single way possible. Not only did he win the match,
but he tapped out and Sina was just kind of
relegated to you know what, that's that's the end. You know,

(14:25):
I'm I'm I'm done, and I I just think that
was the just the ultimate way for for him to
go out in the in the strongest way possible. Now,
I I've been listening to some of your stuff on
the VP side of things, and I do agree with
you that long ago, you know, wwe like started polling
back layers of the onion so that fans could feel

(14:49):
like they could influence moments like this more than they
probably should.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
I think that's about the're entitled to the finish they want.

Speaker 4 (14:54):
You're right, right, And I think that's a different when
we're talking about this. I think that's kind of a
different issue, an important one, but a different one. But
when I look at this match and this finish, just
for what for that and for what that was, and
you look at the heat gun through God on Monday
night like this is that's a thumbs up way to

(15:16):
go out. And you know, I think that what I
felt going into this was if John Cena would have
won that match, you know, it would have just ended
up being like a big John Cena party, a big
John Cena celebration, and the crowd was going to be happy,
and yeah, like that all would have been cool, and

(15:36):
it would have been cool, and it probably would have
been cool for the next whatever twenty four hours, forty
eight hours if you run something back on raw or
something like that, but you don't, you don't get as
much long lasting impact out of something as significant as
John Cena retiring. If you do it that way, you
get more impact if you do it the way that

(15:57):
they did. And I'm not even who knows if it's
gonna work out to the fullest, right, we don't. We
don't know that yet. That story is still being written.
But I give him a thumbs up for you know,
going all the way with it, because they rarely go
all the way with something like that.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
I think one thing to consider. I know this is
very unlikely to happen, given who I'm about to talk about,
but I think what we saw Saturday night, which which
by the way, it was a distraction. If I'm John Cen,
I'm not happy, even though you know Paul Eve's hugging
him and laughing at the crowd response. You know, it's
kind of his condescending way of all these fans don't

(16:34):
get it. He kind of you know, showed and I wrote,
wrote and talked about this in the wake of the
news bulletin yesterday on the VIP side of things that
you know, he couldn't help the condescension at the end
of the comment that some of you just don't understand.
I'm not even sure if I don't want to. I
don't want to prescribe tone and inner thoughts with certitude.
But that's how I took it. It's like, ah, you
got you guys don't understand, But that's okay, I got

(16:55):
big shoulders. But my point is maybe it's a good
idea for the book or to also not be a
TV personality. If you're gonna pull the curtain back this
much in WW un real. And I know Paula Beck
likes the attention and that's what drove him to be
a star, is that desire to be featured and and
you know his fuel is is being in the public
eye and people admiring and talking and cheering and all that.

(17:17):
He's a you know, we saw that in NXT when
we saw the outline at the beginning of Takeover.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know whatever, he just that's who he is. He's
hard wired to do that.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
I will still, even though it's unlikely, uh, pitch the
notion that maybe if you're gonna pull the curtain back
that much, don't have the booker walk out for the
closing moments when someone has seen a stature retires, maybe
stay in the back. If people go, that was disrespectful.

(17:46):
He didn't come out there, does he not? Like John Cena,
deal with that. That's better than walking out and having
a crowd decide instead of thinking about what just happened
with Sena, let's now.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Critique the booking to the booker to his face.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
And that's probably that's probably the most dream example that
there that there will ever be, but not necessarily. There
might be another ocasion where the Beck walks out and
they want to make a big announcement and they want
focus on a storyline, and the fans are like, ah,
finally we get to start chanting at him over some
booking decision he made. They have empowered the fans as
part of canon now, like it's not about it's not

(18:17):
about trying to hide what wrestling is. It's just kind
of let people know what the rules of engagement are
for for you as a fan, and and we're not
going to invite your feedback on the booking on the show.
And obviously that has happened. That's that's what you know.
John Cen and Roman Race's baby faces.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
It was a big part. This predates Paul L. Beck
for sure, But I don't know.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
I don't know if it's solvable, but I think it's
something that they should at least be cognizant of and
devise a strategy to try to ease their way away
from that almost invitation for fan feedback in that at
that level where the booker is present, and if the
booker is not present, you're just gonna get less of it.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
Yeah, And I would take it a step further because
I think too. You know, when Triple H is on
Paul Back is on the post show, right and he's
hearing the booze and he's talking about, oh, well I
I did this, and I I always think of the
business first. I thinks what's his quote? It's like, okay,

(19:16):
that might very well be, but like, what just happened
on the show was Gunther beat John con That's the
that's the story, Like, that's the thing that's going to
be your next plot point on RAW. Is not Triple
H and the decision that he made, but it's Gunther.
So like if it's me, you know, if you I

(19:37):
mean whatever, if you want to I don't know, if
we're my company, I would I wouldn't you know, do
the unreal thing and all that stuff. But if you
if you have to do it, okay, fine do it.
But like when you're on TV, like it should be
like only your storyline stuff so that you don't run
into this and so you know it it it there's
more not that, Like Gunther didn't get the reaction he

(20:01):
was looking for. But I mean, how much more impactful
would Triple H have been for the John Cena retirement
and for Gunther if he stepped out onto that post
show and went, I just can't believe what I saw there.
Like I never thought in a million years i'd see
John Cena tap out and uh, and that's it. And guys,
I don't really know what to say, you know, Like

(20:23):
I mean, I think that helps the storyline so much
better than Oh, I'm gonna address these booze by talking
about how I, uh, the decision that I made. And
it's like it's just like at some point, you know,
and maybe and look, maybe they're figuring that out now
because they you know, unreal just started. And you know,
you've got all this all this need for for content

(20:44):
out there, whether it's on social media.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Or or just as a strong word.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
But yeah, right, like you have if you, if if you.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
Just because you're hungry, just because you have hunger pangs,
doesn't mean you need to gorge on junk food. You know, Like, yes,
we want social media numbers, but you don't have to
give in to this ephemeral, overrated statistic that gives you
this dopamine rush that we had a better month of
social media engagement. What kind of damage did you do
to your ability to tell a story in order to
get this ephemeral, meaningless data point that only be encounters

(21:19):
care about, but actually undercuts your ability to effectively tell
a fun story for the fans.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
That's right, And who's to say, Like, who's to say
that out there? Like saying like just having like a
moment and talking about guntherer and talking about his disbelief
in an actual storyline. Way wouldn't do a whole lot
of views, Like, I mean, you know who who knows.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
If you missed it earlier. Just a reminder, we're running
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limited time offer. Take nine dollars off a VIP subscription
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V twenty twenty five as in November n o V
twenty twenty five, and that takes nine dollars off. When

(22:02):
you check out on our sign up form pw torch
dot com. Slash Go v Ip gives you full details
on membership benefits and links to our sign up form.
So I just was was it the what sitcom did?
Was it the office? Or was it they would do
shorts like on online exclusives, but everyone was in character

(22:24):
and it was like bonus.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
Content, right exactly.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yep, it was it the office? Or am I thinking
of something else? I'm probably multiple suitcomps did it?

Speaker 4 (22:30):
I bet? Yeah? I bet it was multiple ones. But
I mean in my head, it would definitely work in
an office type of a show.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Yeah, and they go, hey, online shorts, we're just having fun,
We're riffing, but they stayed in character. It was it
was you know, especially like side characters who didn't get
a lot of time but they wanted to do something
fun like or maybe a scene got cut. You can
stay in character and get social media gagments. That's a
good point, Sech like.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, like yesterday even too, like Stephanie Vacuriy yesterday there
was something that dropped on the on the like the
WWE like Spanish at her an x account or something
like that, and she cut a promo in Spanish about
Nikki Bella. It was a hell of a promo. It
was a really good promo. Yeah, and you know it

(23:12):
was like thirty seconds and yep, it got a ton
of views, and it's just like, Okay, that that makes sense.
That's a wrestling promo that's catching up with somebody backstage
and you're getting a reaction after you know, Nicky Bella
screwed over or got involved in your match blah blah
blah like whatever. Like I think that stuff can can work,
Like you can use it as an extend to extend content,

(23:34):
but it's really really hard. I think if to your point,
if Triple A is walking out there after, like if
I was seen, I'd be like, oh, man, like, can
you just go back and yeah, I know at this
moment by myself?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, and good there too, and good there too, yeah yeah,
and the the temptation too.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
I like, I'm going to to Wanne like when he
when he was playing The Final Boss, he did so
many so many media including ww official post show, QB
and a type stuff, press conference stuff where he's like
dissecting his character. Oh you know, I'm I'm I'm enjoying
playing the bad guy. John Cena went on Stephen Colbert

(24:19):
in the midst of his heel run didn't mention and
I'm sure it was. Yeah, I assume Colbert probably knew
he was playing a heel role, but they didn't bring
it up. Be Causino was there to pluck a project
and he was just nice, happy, go lucky Sina, and
then you tune in the next night or the night
before whatever, and there he is, I'm a mean guy,
and I don't like the fans there there is I
understand people listening to Go. I can tell the difference.

(24:41):
I know their actors and they play a role, but
it's there's something about the proximity and the immersion of
analyzing the booking and the character decisions in the midst
of a storyline that I think just they should step
back and and and reflect on on on this a
little bit. And that's hard with Dwayne because he's trying

(25:01):
to manage his public image.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I'm having fun and.

Speaker 1 (25:04):
It's like the audience is their Hollywood buddies. There, they're agents, there,
they're pr they're publicist. That's their audience. They want all
these They're not doing it for the fans. They're doing
it so that everybody knows. I don't take it that seriously.
There was a a b announcer and you're like, I
just came across man, why can't I think of his
name right now? He is one of the generic it's

(25:25):
a dated reference, but the Seriers catalog guy, one of
the many series catalog guys that Kevin dun would hire,
the generic white white dude.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Robot perfect hair.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, and he came across to me as worried about
what his college friends or his buddies would think if
he took it too seriously. So there's always this sort
of a yeah, I'm just play acting and the wresting
announcer and and what I announcers, I enjoy the Joe
Tessa taurs even with a little flop him Overdona sometimes,
which is this means the world to me. I'm so
excited to be here, and I'm so invested in the

(25:54):
baby face winning and this championship means the world to me.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
And God, get off my desk.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
This is sacred ground for the announcers, and that is
what a shame this match didn't have a finished. That's
what I want announcers to do and say. And when
when you're watching a show and then you're just sitting
there at the end, going oh, I can't wait to
see what your Polif says about the booking, but about
the rationale for the booking or all that it takes
you kind of away from having a chance just kind
of reflect on what happened and be invested in the stories.

(26:19):
And that's why I just again, I know there's a
lot of metrics, and you bring that up, and there's
that temptation to just gorge on on ephemeral Ultimately, I
think meaningless, if not actually counterproductive chasing the social media
numbers and records. I think it's time to step back
and go, yeah, let's reconsider some of the things that

(26:40):
we're doing. And it doesn't it doesn't mean being a
police state, as I've talked about in the way Keiller
Newsbolts and yesterday, and just like telling all all wrestlers
pretend wrestling is real all always, it's just don't like
flaunt it and bake it into the actual canon of
the of the experience watching the shows to the degree
that they do.

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yeah, And I just I just like my my thing
on my line on this is just like you can
have all of that whatever, all that content, all that
social stuff, all all that stuff, it's just just be
smarter with it, like have it actually serve the product
and and not just like the fascination of going behind

(27:18):
the scenes. I still think just you know, if it
if it, if it means each video does you know,
one hundred thousand views less than do you know, do
a couple more every year? Like, I just think that
there's a way that even if you just need to
stipulate to the reality of Okay, we need to do
this because we have so many masters to serve. Fine,
I think that there's a way to have that and

(27:41):
not undermine what you're what you're doing out there.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Like can I be a coach after a game if
they're actually tanking in order to get a lottery pick,
they do the press the postgame presser, and they don't
pull the curtain back and go, yeah, I played that
guy who's not good at three point shooting and terrible
at defense in crunched time when we were down by nine,
And what we really should have done is put our
better defender and our better three point shooter in. But
I didn't do that because we want a better draft pick,

(28:08):
we want a better chance in the lottery. He's not
gonna say that he's gonna go. He's gonna go in
with a straight face, bullshit you, and he's gonna go.
You know, we tried Mark Madson in the Timbers. Reason
the Wolves got Karl Anthony Towns is they put Mark
Madson out there and had him start chucking up three
point shots and he couldn't shoot. He was a role
player in the Lakers, a role player center, a backup,
and he was just there to be a body under

(28:30):
the under the under the rim. But they had him
jacket up three point shots and Flip Saunders, our coach
at the time, said with a straight face, yeah, we
just want to give him practice. Like he didn't even
you know, there's a little little wink to the audience,
but he didn't want to get fined her in trouble.
So he's like, no, no, we really want to see
if he could shoot three. He's like, this is a chance,
in this circumstance, at this point in the season, to
see if he can expand his game he's been working

(28:51):
on in practice. So my point is it's okay for
Triple Ah to go on a press conference and play
the role of a head coach after a game or
a GM after a big train and continue cannon and
and say don't say John Cena did the right thing,
stand there with a straight face to his fake the
fake media people he's talking to these days for the

(29:11):
most part, and and and and continue to play it up.
And it would be fun to go out there and
go like you're saying, like, what a shame that John
Cena lost his last match. The fans were clearly disappointed.
Goother did what he said he was gonna do, and
frankly he did it without cheating or dishonor because Goonther
is a better man right now. But you know what
I saw out there. I saw John Cena at peace
with it, and I think fan.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Should be too, Like, how hard is that?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
That doesn't there's there's no that's not gonna hurt business
if you do that. So either do that or stop
the media Q and as because to me, the media,
the pull and the curtain back media Q and A's
are because are motivated on we want to show we
don't take ourselves super seriously. We want to show that
we're up, we're off for Emmys and Oscars. We're in

(29:54):
the entertainment, scripted entertainment business. And they just they can't
they're just over eager to show so that when they
don't need to, everybody knows it already, like we know that,
So don't undercut the immersiveness of the product by distracting
us into being meta observers constantly. I do not want
to watch a movie at the theater and then immediately afterwards,

(30:16):
have while I'm still absorbing the outcome, have like the
director and the actress come on and start being chummy
about it. Maybe it's even different when it's actors and
they play a different bunch of different roles in their
lives lifetimes, but I want some separation between the experience
of the product and the analysis afterwards. But I think

(30:38):
in wrestling it's even more important because you want to
play like people believe. John Cena is what they've marketed
him for the last year, but especially the last few weeks.
Like it was propaganda. Propaganda. Don't mean it's all false,
but it was. They were propagating an image of a
babyface the same way they propagate an image of a heel.
Some of these heels are good people, but they make
you think they're horrible. John Cena is not everything that

(30:58):
they've made them out to be, but they promoted it
that way and that's okay, they did that for business,
and like, continue to tell that story and don't undercut
Emmaily all right.

Speaker 5 (31:17):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight Years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 6 (31:32):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 4 (31:48):
I honestly think that like when you look at that
match and you look at just I mean just how
invested that audience was. I mean, like that was incredible,
Like the have that in twenty twenty five. I mean,
you know, you just don't get that as much these
days of just like universal everybody's on one side. I

(32:09):
think WWE did a really great job of framing up
that retirement in that match. In the end, they didn't
start out that way, but in the end, I think
they got where they needed to be on it. And
you know, for as great of a job as they
did in that moment, and for that match itself, it's
like as soon as the bell rang, it all like

(32:30):
fell apart. And you know, I think if you if
you just look at the match and you look at
the six seconds after the match, you're like, wow, that
was pretty much. That was perfect. Yeah, the crowd's not happy,
but that they weren't supposed to be happy. That's the
point that we don't want them to be appy. So
there you go. And then after that it's just like,
well then Triple Ith comes out and then he talks

(32:52):
on the show and it's like, oh my god, you're
just you're unraveling everything. Just just can you just be
quiet for a little bit, just just don't tain exactly.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Well, Derek asked about passing out versus smiling and tapping,
and so I want to address that it was his
last line, Like how would that have changed things if
Sina had passed out in terms of the story that
they were intentionally telling.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
Like I said, I think that's that would have been
you know, a lever to pull to hedge a little bit,
like he lost, but he didn't give up, and Gunther
didn't do what he said he was going to do so, like, yeah,
he lost, but and I think it's better to not
have that butt. I think it's better to not have
that hedge. I think it's better to have the clear, definitive.

(33:37):
I tapped out, and maybe twenty years ago I would
have passed out, but you know, I'm forty eight now
and that's not my thing anymore. Like I you know,
I just think it's better to go all the way
with something like this. And I think people would have
saw that for what it was, which was like a hedge.
And because that way, he doesn't really lose. He kind
of loses, but he doesn't win. So you're kind of

(33:58):
stuck in this middle ground and you don't have kind
of a universal opinion about it.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, real quick, I mentioned after raw that I thought
the announcers should have been more neutral about Gunther and
concede that he won fair and square. And then it
was only after Gunther cut the promo, rubbing it in
and gloating in an unsportsman like way that they should
have turned on him. And instead, from the beginning they

(34:26):
were acting like he did something wrong, and he didn't.
He did nothing wrong by beating John Cena his goal
was to win a match. He said he wanted to
do it by tap out. He wins many matches that way,
and he did. And I don't get why even Wade
Baird of all people, expressed disdain or disapproval for Gunther.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
It should have.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
It would have been so much more effective if they
would have been more neutral about it. They can be
sad for Sina test or should be Bart shouldn't be,
but it should have only been oh, come on now, Guther,
come on, yeah, had a clean win, and now you
can't you know, now you're you're gloating. You can't help
but rub it into that that That would have been
so much more effective. And I don't know how they

(35:07):
missed that in the way that they told the story,
and the story beats I'm wrong.

Speaker 4 (35:11):
Yeah, I think they should have done the same thing,
or at least a little bit further that way. I mean,
I can understand if you were like, Okay, you're a
big John Cena fan and he loses his last match,
and like, you know whatever, you don't ever want your
team to your team to lose or your guy to lose.
But there's a way to there's a way to play
that with like just straight up all right, you know

(35:33):
you can put him over while you do that, like,
I'm disappointed.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
It's scenic. Gave everything he had, but gun Through was
a better man like that, and.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
He tapped out, and like I'm I'm shocked. I'm shocked,
and I you.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Know, we're sad, but we're proud. We're sad that's seen
a loss, but you know what, we're proud of the
effort he put forward. Gunthrough is just the better man.
And and and you can you can prime, you can
even primeate go you know, hopefully Goother comes out here
and has some nice words for the fight SCENEA put up,
put up because I know people are sad he lost,
but you know, seen as at piece with it. That's
why he's retiring. Guntherro is a better man.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Let's see what Guother wants to do next.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
For like, set Gunther up to fail as a person
by setting expectations a little higher than is reasonable, so
that when he completely goes the opposite direction, you can
be disgusted with him. And they lost that opportunity because
they were disgusted with him for no good reason for
the beginning. Yep, yeah, all right up next ja in Florida,

(36:29):
says Hey Wade. In twenty twenty five alone, Tony Kahan
has awarded over three point one million in cash prizes
across numerous matches. This recurring gimmick feels like lazy booking,
slapping money on a mid card multiperson match to create
stakes instead of building real rivalries and stories for a
modern promotion. He should see what finsuit man did? Give
it a million dollars to a fan for a modern promotion?

(36:50):
Why rely so heavily on Tony's wallet rather than create
a storytelling. It seems to get little criticism except from you,
compared to other booking decisions. Do the winners have to
report this cash.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
To the I R S.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Curious for your thoughts on whether this helps or hurts
the product? Thanks for the great shows.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
J A in Florida. Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
I mean, I don't like the the arbitrary nous of it.
You know, Shuantane else would be going, shouldn't other rest
would be going? Why don't I get a big cash prize?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
I just won?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
There's no there's no real reason to assign these these dollars,
and it does feel like slap, as he put it,
slapping money on a mid carter multiperson match with no
storyline backing, although in some cases there's a storyline to
be had, they just don't they don't do it, or
they're adding something extra on top that isn't needed supervise h.

Speaker 4 (37:36):
I always wonder, like as a fan, like why why
do I care if they win? Yeah? Like I don't
like what is I mean, I don't like, Okay, great,
it'd be like, you know if the only thing that
you know, the the Bears get if they win. I mean,
I know they get extra money and stuff like that,
but like there's more to it than that. It's not
you're not just watching them to watch them win so

(37:57):
that they get paid.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
So it's like, I think, you know what, the NBA
Cup gives a half a million dollars every player on
a team who wins the NBA Cup, and they don't
talk about it a ton, Like I haven't seen like
the national broadcast for them. I don't know, actually don't
know how much they talk about it. I haven't heard
a lot of talk about it. But one one of
the local games that the Timbers were playing, the announcer said,
you know that five hundred thousand dollars is a lot
of money for everybody on this team, but it's a

(38:21):
lot more money for the bench players who are trying
to get a contract worth you know, worth a lot
of money, and they're not there yet, they're not set
for life, and the star players are playing for them,
you know, the big star players are playing so that
the second half of the team, that the long tail bench,

(38:41):
get life changing amount of money to like they can
give that to their mom and dad to pay off
their house, you know, they can like pay for college
for their nephew, whatever their life situation is like, And
so I buy that, and so like, I think there's
a way to make cash prize work.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
But it's so specific.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
It's kind of know what you're getting into, Like why
do I care if these top wrestlers are earning all
this money. Assume they're making a lot of money anyway,
But if you had a Future Stars tournament in Tony
Kahann put like a half a million dollar prize on it,
like that is a talking point. Now I'm excited to
see if you know, whoever you want to come up
with it, you know, like you could do it in NXT,
for instance, you could that would be could do it

(39:20):
with a cash prize for like the rookies, that kind
of thing. So there's my thoughts on like how to
take the money from something like you're saying, why do
I care to I do care, But that's not at
all what Tony CON's doing.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
No, for sure not and and and and to your point,
it's so inconsistent, Like I don't think to your what
you just said about the you know, the future Star
Tournament whatever, like okay, like I'm in on something like that,
because you're right, like you know, the star players are
playing NBA Cup for for those other teams. At the
same time, when Jalen Brunson gets interviewed yesterday about winning

(39:52):
the Cupies, not mentioning the fact that he wins five
hundred thousand dollars, it's just we want and we want
to win the tournament and it gets something good foot
and blah blah blah. So just like anything in wrestling,
like there's there's a way to do it successfully. But
I don't. I don't think Tony Conn has found the
right formula with that.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
No, I agree, And why do you think he's doing it?

Speaker 4 (40:16):
Because I I to me, I think he you know,
feels like he has to have some kind of steaks
behind some of these matches so that people care, and frankly,
like he just doesn't have the storyline reason for all
of them to happen, so he puts these behind them,
and it's like, well, now they can happen because there's
money on the line, and it's like, you know it, Yeah,

(40:39):
you gotta You do have to plan more, and you
do have to to be more creative and and get
your stars in positions where you can put them in
matches that people care about without that kind of thing,
that have stakes on their own, that stand on their
own because the storylines are good. But I just you know,
he's got that in place on his show, but he

(41:01):
doesn't have it in others. And that's when he slaps
a gimmick like that on it.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
If you missed it earlier, just a reminder, we're running
these often. Take advantage of it now. It is a
in ninety nine cents. The coupon code is n O
V twenty twenty five as in November Nov twenty twenty five,

(41:27):
and that takes nine dollars off. When you check out
on our signup form pw torch dot com slash go
VIP gives you full details on membership benefits and links
to our signup form. I think bookers inevitably almost always
put a qualify in it show aspects of their own
personality and their booking. Like if I booked, I would

(41:49):
be like, you know, I'd be very You got to
hold the tag rope, you know, like I like I like.
I like the attention to little details that create kind
of a structure, so that if there's a structure in place,
breaking from it means more. You know, the young bucks
I would have a tough time with. I would need
to you know, I'd want consistency. I want want security
guys getting beat up without ramifications because that's just stupid.
Why are these hourly workers getting beat up and nobody

(42:10):
and everyone thinks it's okay? So like I would clean
that stuff up, and you know, whether it would add
up to making a big difference in business or not.
I don't think it's just I think it matters, like
I really do. I think you want to have a
sense that there's there's competent leadership with structure, and I
think with Tony Kahan he values exciting, good matches and

(42:31):
he also has shown he thinks adding a championship belt
to a match makes a match have importance. And this
money is another thing that is revealing about Tony Khan,
I think, which is if you add a trinket s
Ton Martin calls it a extra belt, or you add
money that in and of itself makes the match more

(42:52):
interesting for the viewer at home, not taking into account
the diminishing returns, you know, like if you.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Have well, what's what.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Go to exactly Like if you have an air cooker,
an air fryer that you love, you might want a
second model so you can kind of like air fry
broccoli and will for meet air fry broccoli and tofu
at the same time, so everything is hot at the
same time for my agent dishes. But I don't need
nine air friers. I don't need nine now all of

(43:22):
a sudden. I mean, this isn't perfect analogy because I
just used to and not use the others, but like
there comes a point where like, if you have nine belts,
by definition, you're not valuing the two that you could
make matter. And I grew up with the WWF title
then the ICY title mattering because they were only two
men's titles and they had to, you know, each other role.
So with Tony, there's something in his nature that thinks
doesn't think about things becoming less important the more you have.

(43:44):
It's just fun having more, you know. It's like I
talked to Jason Less week on the flagship and push
back a bit on the idea that wargames should have
a stipulation like a title shot, contendership or something. I'm like,
can't wargames just be like the that is the end game?
Winning more games is enough? And I use that like
there's some matches where it's just like it's okay to

(44:05):
not have it lead to something else. It is the
is the end goal. Like what's the point of winning
the NBA Cup Because you get a banner and you
won a cup and it was a tournament and it's
a sport and you did better than all the other
teams and now you get a trophy and money in
a banner and the fans can be happy.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
That's enough. It doesn't have to lead to home court
advantage in the playoffs in May. Right.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
So my point in this is Tony Kahan uses the
money and the titles as it ends up in effect
being a.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Crutch that allows you to it.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
It's sort of like taking weight loss pills instead of
just eating healthy, calbary, dense food that isn't full of
fat and processed stuff that's just going to turn to
fat storage.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
You can, and I.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
Think there's exceptions where that's important and needed for your health,
but it is ultimately a shortcut for a lot of
people who don't have time or inclination or the knowledge
to just do things in a because food is complicated,
nutrition and exercises complicated.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Cal pill.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Okay, now I'm better. I think Tony con treats. I
don't want to get heat from people on that. I
feel like people are gonna be mad at.

Speaker 7 (45:06):
Me right now.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
But you, okay, thank you, because I'm not judging. But
you know, there are obviously people know there's people who
are just gorging, gorging on terrible food and taking the
diet pill and it's like, you're not it's probably not.
There's probably a better approach. So the point is that
Tony kN adds titles in cash as it ends up
being crutched a substitute for putting in the time, for

(45:27):
storyline density and consequences to wins and losses alone. That
leads somewhere, but not immediately, that media gratification of cash
prize or a belt is easier. But I don't think
it's as fulfilling as Hey, this person just won four
out of five matches, and over time it adds up
to meeting something, right.

Speaker 4 (45:45):
I definitely agree. I mean, that's that's how I see him.
You you use that stuff too, and the titles same
same thing. That's a good, great thing to point out
within this conversation because it's like, you know, you can
have all these matches still and if you just put
at elbow grease in and give them context and reason
for happening and then people I think people would actually

(46:05):
care more about them than a random hundred thousand dollars here,
a random hundred thousand dollars there.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
Up next, Eric G, a VP member from Charlotte, says hello,
all with the Continental Classic about halfway done. It looks
like we're heading towards Ocata and Fletcher making it out
of the Gold League, while either Claudia or Moxley joins
Dakeshta to advance out of the Blue League. If this
indeed happens, there will be technically four heels that all
advance into the semi finals. So my questions are, would

(46:34):
this be the ideal setup for the knockout phase of
the For the knockout phase of the tournament? Is it
acceptable to have four heels all advanced or as Takeshta's
and potentially Moxley's gradual phase turn enough for that to
not matter what would be your preferred final four both
heading into the tournament and have those preferences changed with

(46:55):
the current standings. Have a great day and go vip PS.
I thought Wage should know that that aw has a
content classic page on the company website and is well
done showing the table standings and rules to the tournament.
I thought he should know to maybe give them credit
for updating the site with useful information after six years.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Of not doing so. So there we are, Yes, thank
you for that, so.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Zach, Yeah, so one, do you agree first of all
with that being a distinct possibility or likelihood that those
are the final four. And then kind of the key
part two before we get into a little bit other
aspects of this is is it okay with two people
on a babyface journey to have four heels in the
final four?

Speaker 4 (47:41):
So I mean, ideally, no, I don't. It's kind of
the funneling that you'd have, you know, four heels like
that in a in a tournament, like in a tournament,
you know, final or semi final, final, just because like that,
those matches are taking place on on pay per view.
They're taking place at the World's on pay per view,

(48:02):
and I think you want in a perfect world to
have your fans within inside of those matches have a
rooting interest one way or the other. And if it's
Fletcher and Okada, it's like okay, you know, like okay, great,
we're gonna see a good match. I know it can't
be that, but my point is, like you pair up
any of those heels and you know, yes, you're gonna

(48:25):
have a good match, you know. But I don't think
people really care necessarily who wins, or they shouldn't anyway,
because all of them are are heels. Now, I think
that by the time we get there, that match is
going to be cleaned up a little bit because I
think you're gonna have to ketcha and I think you're
gonna have to ketch the leaning full babyface by the

(48:46):
time the match happens with Okada potentially in the finals,
so I think, like, when you get there, they will hopefully,
you know, fans will be where AW wants them to
be in terms of alignment. Same thing with John Mock, Like,
I just don't see, you know this, this whole storyline
with with death writers, you know, continuing on and him

(49:08):
still being this distestable heel when it's all said and done, Like,
I think fans will rally to him once that storyline
gets more more chapters behind it, so you know, they
may be okay by the time they get to World's End.
But for me, I would have definitely had somebody like
Darby or even like a like a like a Mike

(49:30):
Bailey perhaps in there as like a kind of the underdog,
you know, play from behind guy. And maybe they did.
Maybe Darby was the plan and they you know obviously
couldn't do that, but I would have had something like
that in the mix, just so fans did have a
clear rooting interest. They don't have that now, but that
doesn't mean they won't have it when it's pay per view.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
You're doing so well there for a while, Zach, and
then you took my two top talking points at the
very end. No, of course, I don't mind. I mean
a little because now I'm going to repeat my what
you saying next time. That's right, How dare you Darby?
If he was in the tournament, you could make a
case for he should be one of the final four,
and you can tell a story a story there, and

(50:14):
he would have been in the Gold League, mox suit
in the Blue League.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
And am I correct?

Speaker 1 (50:17):
I think I'm right that the second place finisher in
Gold faces the first place finisher in Blue, and vice versa.
So the I don't think it's flexibility on that the
way it structured. So and there they have a web
page that can tell me all this, I wouldn't have
to ask you.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
I should tell people about that web page, by the way,
because I had no idea.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
They have never ever once told people they have a
website on their TV show.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
No I I it's like it's so weird, Like Tony
con just decided Twitter is everything, Like I don't.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
I don't like website. Do we have one? Do we
need one?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
It's it's been terribly run most of the time, and
it is a resource. So many Jason Paul and I,
you know, complain about like we're trying to find the
on my lineup, you know, do it right up, and
it's like, it'd be nice to go to the website,
it'd be there, but no, we have to scroll for
eight minutes through all the stuff on their twitter feed
to find their lineup. It's like, jeez, anyway, I don't
want to do a sidebar rant of things that only
really affect me, although I did affects yours too. You

(51:14):
want to know what's happening on Dynamite, do you really
need to log into social media? And not everybody's on
social media. Just have a website that you tell people
here's her preview for the show, and they do it
sometimes well, and then there'll be weeks they don't. All right,
So if Derby's still in it, I think you could
have seen a Darby Moxley, for instance, match that would
have been really good, or Darby Takeshta which would have

(51:36):
been face heal.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
But it could have been.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Wrestled in a way that told the story that Takesha
is actually really honorable and kind of you know, Darby's like, hey,
this guy's you know, Derby could have given them a little endorsement.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Too, you know, win or lose. In that case, Takesha
is probably winning.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
You don't have to wait for the way Keller for
Wrestling post show to find out what I thought of
Monday Night Row on SmackDown. Each week, you can check
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at pwtorch dot com. My written report will tell
you what's happening in detail in case you missed the show,
and it will also analyze key segments and give my
random thoughts quips on what I am watching as it airs.

(52:18):
So check it out every Monday night and Tuesday night
at pwtorch dot com. That also applies to WWE pay perviews.
I cover those live at pw torch dot com with
a detailed written report with star ratings, and of course,
you can find other TV reports from other contributors to
PW torch such as nxt roh, Impact Wrestling and more.
Check it out pwtorch dot com. Your first stop for

(52:40):
TV and pay per view written reports, and then yes,
Speedball was my other talk about you brought up at
the end. He still got a chance. I mean, there's
two matches left and he's tied for first place. He

(53:00):
could be the second place guy behind Okada and face
Moxley or Takeshta in the Blue League. Whoever finishes second.
Moxley still has a chance. Moxy has a potential still
for nine points and Takesha is at seven. So if
Takeshta had a draw and a loss, he could end

(53:23):
up at eight. Mox could still beat him. So I'm
just I don't throwing that out there.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Depends on his opponents and the realistic aspects of that.
But so but I like Speedball.

Speaker 1 (53:33):
Kevin Knight, by the way, at three points, the most
he can get is nine, but he could he I
mean technically he could still win and he could be
an underdog feel good story if they want to throw
that twist in there. So Speedball is a chance to
stand up with twelve Night with nine, and that does
not rule them out. So there's still a chance of
stories told. But I think ultimately Eric got got it right.

(53:55):
I think Tony Kahan is thinking Moxley and Takeshta are
going to be the de facto fan favorites, even if
they haven't officially turned babyface, and we can only fully
judge it when we see how.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
That story is told.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
And by the way, I'm still not rolling out Pac
as a final four like, I mean, he has a
chance to get to twelve points. He's only wrestled twice,
so he's at three. He has three more matches. I mean,
I initially I thought this was going to be sort
of the christening of Pac as a leader in the
Death Riders. And so you could do POC second place
against Moxley, or POC first place even and Taqusha's and

(54:35):
ocatas in second place, and do what POC Moxley matchup
that leads to kind of a breakup, or a mox
Claudia or a Pac claudial match leads to break up pretension.
So there's still more stories to tell. I think the
most likely path is what Eric's saying. And maybe I'm
just fooling myself into wanting or maybe I'm trying to
create other options just for entertainment value as I watch

(54:58):
it play.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Out, But legitimately speak.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
I think the casual fan can do what we just
did as an exercise and call there's still a chance
for this guy, still the chance for that guy, instead
of the meta conclusion of well, we know the story
they're likely telling and here's how they're likely telling it.
If you're a more casual fan at home watching and
you've got your favorite, there's still hope for night in
Bailey and even Pock at this point. Yeah, I don't

(55:20):
think Orange Cassidy or Rod or Strong or Mascroderata should
be in the final two, you know, Like I just
I don't think there's great babyface options, And I think
that's part of what's that play here, especially with Darby out, and.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
I think I think, honestly that's like one of the
benefits or I think he's been a strong point of
the tournament so far. Even with Darby going out, I
think they've kept enough of the guys alive enough long enough,
and enough of the guys intertwined with others, like in
their block storyline wise, where you can kind of play
out different scenarios. Well, maybe this and maybe that. I

(55:53):
just remember, like a couple of years it was just like,
well it's this is gonna be Boxley and Eddie, you know,
like you just kind of knew that was that was
common or last year. But if it was, I think
it was Okada and was it Ocada on Osprey last year?
I think like you knew that was kind of there. Here.
I think it's it is more open, and I think
it it's lended itself. It's lent itself to better, like

(56:13):
more drama, like in the matches, like on the actual days,
and not just watching, yeah to see a good match,
but watching because it actually has impact.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yep, Yep, agreed, zach Ca.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Let's take a moment for you to tell people that
they're enjoying hair from you and they want to read
more or listen more of what you're doing throughout the
week every week in between appearances here tell people how
they can do that.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
Yeah, thanks, nd, I appreciate it. Yeah, and happy holidays everybody.
It's always always a blast being on and and love
love doing this, doing this show. So you guys can
check out more my work really in two key places.
The first is a takedown on SI at the SI
Sports Illustrated arm of the the Pro wrestling arm of
Sports Illustrated. So I write there all day, every day,

(57:01):
whether sometimes it's news, sometimes it's features. I also have
a weekly podcast there now up on their on their
YouTube channel. It's Thursday afternoons at twelve eastern. So if
you want to hear hear me there, would love to
have you as a listener there twelve eastern on the
Takedown on his YouTube channel. And also I run a

(57:21):
kind of like a feature editorial newsletter, brass Ring Media
on substack. It's totally free to subscribe there. Really proud
of the writing that we're doing myself and some others,
and it's just kind of just it's just analysis. So
we're not going to get your news hits there. You're
not going to get your you know, like show results there,
but you will get analysis and context around all of

(57:44):
that stuff for WWE and AW and TNA and and
others other other promotions too. So you can find me
there on substack. Brass Ring Media is all you have
to do to in search to find it, and you
can subscribe tolly for free, and we'd love to I'd
love to have you there. Well.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Awesome, Zach. Yeah, everyone should check that out. Check out
more of what Zach is doing.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
We had earlier, John from Innrural Michigan, who emailed about
the crowd reaction to Tcina. He added, and I failed
to read this, Zach, who wins the Week eighteen game
between your Bears and my Lions? The entire season for
both the Bears and Lions may come down to that
Week eighteen game at Soldier Field, So who wins? I
know how that felt because last year the whole season

(58:26):
came Vikings. Lions came out of that last game against
the Lions and Sam Darnold let us down and now
he is doing great elsewhere, and and we ended up
having to play a wild card game and it didn't
go well, and the Lions went on well.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Then when the Super.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Bowl they got to, they at least they at least
had home home field and didn't have to play wildcard
last year. So yeah, what an interesting season for this
division with Green Bay Bears and Lions doing so well.
The Vikings a little resurgent, not can't make the playoffs,
but certainly can play spoiler and feel good about the
second half of their season if if they shine. But man,
the Bears at first week lost against the Vikings, you

(59:01):
had to be wondering oh god, especially the way your
your you know, young star quarterback looked like you'd like
you had never met a football before. But now Bears
and Lions. It's been a while since we said Bears
and Lions is a huge game and Week eighteen, actually
we never said that because Week eighteen is new.

Speaker 4 (59:15):
It's been a while. Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 6 (59:17):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (59:18):
I'm still learning how to handle this success from I
still don't.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
The Lions fans are too just get ready for a heartbreak.

Speaker 4 (59:25):
I don't know how to handle it other than to
say that it's it's been fun. It's been fun, and hopefully,
you know, it keeps being fun. I My hope is,
my hope is that we can win enough games and
other things can happen around the team where that game
doesn't mean anything in the weekends. That would be my hope. Right,

(59:45):
So I'm gonna stick with the positivity. I'm gonna go there.
I'm gonna say, you know, let's just get this whole
thing wrapped up before then and and and have a
have an easy final week.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah, yep, all right.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
Well, I've been rooting for the Lions as my that
kind of secondary team one because they're not the Packers
and they're in this division and the Lions fans has
just been so long. But the Lions have had their
chances the last two three years and I haven't delivered.
And I don't want to abandon them. But I don't
really have disdain for the I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
I don't. I don't do. Do you like your cut coach?

Speaker 4 (01:00:20):
I do? I mean, you know, he's ten four. I
can't say that. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
I do like his personality, not his success. I mean
I think he's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
No, Yeah, I mean there's some many coaches I like
and I don't. I don't, I don't. I don't have
time to follow super immersively any even the Vikings as
much as I'd like to, but I I watched them,
but I like, really don't follow other teams other than
you know, the week we play them. I kind of
you know so, but I just remember getting a bad
impression in your coach.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
I just didn't. I just got bad.

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
So I'm like, I think he knows what he's doing. Uh,
he doesn't seem like he's the most pleasant person in.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
The Yeah, that's exactly what's the Ben Johnson.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Ben Johnson. Yeah, So I mean it can come down
to that for me. Sometimes I don't like late in
the season, I'll pick sides. But there I'm not ruling out.
I'll be rooting for your bears.

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
All right, all right, all right, I'll send you that
twenty dollars Bill.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
I promise, who cares if I root for your team
or not, but I if it comes down to mean something,
those last game of the season, everything is on the line.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Games are a blast.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
They are fun. Yep, yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
All right, we have a couple more scenic questions. I
want to spread them on a little bit because you know,
but it is the topic of the week, and we
got some really good emails pulling kind of different angles
of discussion out. Even as much as we talked about Sena,
it's since Saturday night and of course in the week's
leading up to it. This will probably be near the
end of Scena being topic of discussion. So Johnny says,

(01:01:41):
hello away, Johnny here, first time email, longtime reader and listener.
I had this question observation coming out of seeing this
last match. Well, great, hear from you, Johnny, Please email
again'll pe a stranger. During most of the Bloodline story,
I was pretty adamant that jay Us should have been
the one to ultimately take the title from Roman. My
reason was because I thought and still think that from
the start of the storyuntil he lost a Roman at
SummerSlam and then moved to Raw. Until that point, I

(01:02:03):
thought the bloodline story was just as much a j
Usa story as it was a Roman rain story. The
response I would get was that then jay Usa would
be the champion. It seems to me that you add
these two things in conflict. What was the best booking
decision versus what, at least I thought was clearly the
right storyline decision. I had the same thought coming into
coming in and out of Saturday. From a booking perspective,

(01:02:25):
Gunther winning was clearly the right choice. Even if you
think he didn't gain much, he did gain at least
some amount of this, and he can now springboard this
into a run for the title and or take on
a new role as a career killer. Hello brack Lesner,
Hello Ages Styles. Maybe a couple years from now, Hello
Siampunkin Randy Orton, Yeah, I think it's just headed to
a Randy Orton moment in uh and in how the

(01:02:48):
and how this uh? You know, how this plays out?
Whether it, so you know, the climax or just one
one along the way. I think that is definitely going
to be a thing as a cyber before I finish it.
In my Way News bulletin last night, I wrote that
Gooonther had more to lose by losing than he had
to gain by winning.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
But he's still gained by winning.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
But I agree with the notion that losing would have
been worse for him than winning was good for him.
But you get both. You're avoiding the bad and you're
getting a little bit of good. So I'm with Johnny
and this. I'll just insert that from a story. So
back to Johnny's email from a storytelling perspective, so you know,
winning was clearly the right choice. The story of the
show was the John Cena Serious finale. Some series should

(01:03:31):
have a sad finale because it's reflective of the ethos
of the show. Some series should have a more ambiguous
finale because it's reflective of the ethos of the show.
If the John Cna Serious finale was going to be
reflective of the ethos of him and his character, he
should have won. Do you think the polarized reaction is
based on which of those two lenses you viewed this
match through and if so, do you think in this
instance it was the right decision for the wrestling booking

(01:03:53):
to supersede the storytelling. Thanks for taking my question and
have a good one. Thanks Johnny if you missed it earlier.
Just a reminder, we're running our second VIP sale of
the year. We don't do these often, take advantage of
it now. It is a limited time offer. Take nine
dollars off a VIP subscription a one month, three month,
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down to just three dollars in ninety nine cents. The

(01:04:14):
coupon code is n o V twenty twenty five as
in November n o V twenty twenty five, and that
takes nine dollars off. When you check out on our
sign up form pw torch dot com slash go vi
ip gives you full details on membership benefits and links
to our sign up form. Zach well Well stated email

(01:04:36):
from Johnny there, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
Yeah, you know, I think that honestly, I think that
that's that's that's fair. I don't know how much that
I can really add to that. I think it's a
fair You know, assessment really really of both both those
storylines actually, but you know with Sina, with Sena and Goodthor,
I think that you saw on my day night like

(01:05:02):
why things had to go the way the way that
they did, and I I I just maintained that we
don't know how it's gonna work. We don't we don't
know if it's gonna work, you know, we just we
just don't, like who knows if If you know, if
Gunther can be you know, this high end brock Lesner
type heel for the next eight years, like okay that,

(01:05:22):
then you're gonna look back on this and go that
was that was a home run. If he doesn't, then,
you know, I think you're gonna look back on it
and and maybe feel a little bit differently. But that
doesn't mean the move at that moment was the wrong
was the wrong one. I think same thing with Jus
in a lot of ways, Like I think Jay, you know,

(01:05:43):
if you if you would have went with him at
that moment and had him beat Roman reigns and and
win the championship, I think people would have been like, Okay,
that that that makes sense. I think now that he
didn't get that win and and kind of where he's fallen.
You kind of know why he didn't like he had

(01:06:03):
his shortcomings in the ring as a single star. He
you know, he got over, but you know it was
a lot of the entrance and and he kind of
became a little bit one note, still a big star,
but just not the guy like Cody was when he
beat Roman reigns. And so I think you look back
on that and same kind of thing you could you
have made the argument in the moment, absolutely same thing

(01:06:25):
with John Cena.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
And Gun there and the stakes with John Cena, are
you're happy or sad at the at the end point
of everything involving John Cena as a as a immersive
on air active wrestler. With Jay and Roman, it wasn't
an endpoint for either of them, So you have to
live with the consequences. And I think that's where the
decision is, the evaluating what's the right wrong thing to do?

(01:06:48):
Among the differences in those two examples, and there's some
similarities to which makes it a good email, but among
the differences is if Jay wins, you're ending Roman rangs
his reign and now you have Jay us as your
champion and you have to deal with that John c
and Gunther. All you gain or lose is you lose
a feel good moment for John Cena fans and you
gain Goonther having something to break obnoxiously about on a promo.

(01:07:13):
And I guess my argument is John Cena losing. And
Paula Beck tried to meta explain this and I put
this in you know the story up on people Gatorchia
dot comm on this and I wrote about it in
the week on the news Walton for VAP members uh
last night, so it's fresh in my mind reading it is.
He was like John Cena has always been about doing
the right thing for business, and that's driving me a

(01:07:36):
little nut because I don't want the story explanation being
the actor likes to die at the end. That should
not be the reason the actor died at the end.
It should be about the character. And this goes to
our initial discussion about blending meta and canon and storytelling
and storylines. I don't want to hear the booker tell

(01:07:58):
me that John Cena lost story in the storyline because
John Cena, the person wants to get back to the
business that is mucking up everything because now you don't
get to root for somebody to win a match for Pride.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
You're now rooting for somebody to win a match.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
Because it's best for business, right, And this goes back
to the whole authority figure thing with Daniel Bryan. Well,
he's not best for business, well right, but if he
wins his matches, he's going to be your champion, whether
you like him on a poster or not.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
This should not feel like winning isn't what makes you
the champion. It's marketing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
I mean, like that should never be talked about. You
should never talk about how marketable somebody is for business.
And they got really caught up in that bragging about
Oh you know, I don't did they do it this week?
Did they talk about the record ticket revenue Saturday?

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
They did they talk about it? I don't think they
talked about it on the show, but they definitely mentioned
I mean, they definitely pushed out their communication.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Yeah yeah, But I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
I'm okay, but I don't want them in the show
breaking about how much money we got out of your
wallets and we've made pay more experiences than any fans
I've ever paid to experiences.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
But they get they.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
Get caught up in the world they live in, and
I visit other worlds and I see you get lost
in that mindset where you're around a bunch of other
people who are just so excited to show you the
latest metrics, and it's like that's home. But the fans
watch wrestling, it's not to see TKO have record quarters.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
This is not.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
And so you have to not confuse your world with
the one that the fans want to experience when they
when they're consuming your product.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
So they've gotten better about that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
But Levek's explanation, if he's going to explain it, which
I'm against him doing right after the show, I think
there's a context days, weeks, months, years later where you
can maybe make a better case for it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
And the context matters too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
But if he's going to, he should say John Cena's
story was he gave it as all until he had
nothing left to give. He was a giving tree. You
know that kid's book. They could make make you cry
which time you read it. You know, no matter even
if you're not a softie, the giving tree. John Cena
was a giving tree. And he ran into somebody who
is still has a lot left to accomplish and is

(01:10:00):
at his prime and is and and the reason Sene
is retiring because he doesn't feel like he he necessarily.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
Has much left. He gave it as all you should
be proud of him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Like that, to me is what the If a booker
is going to be talking, he should be talking about
the storyline, not seeing it did the right thing by
doing a job to give a rub to Gunther. I
just I so strongly disagree with that being something that
should be entered into people's minds in the official you know,
communications between the customer fan base and the company and creators.

Speaker 4 (01:10:27):
Yeah. I couldn't I couldn't agree more. And I and
I just think, you know, like I I don't know
how that like, especially now when you have a show
for that stuff, like like I mean, even if it's
kind of going back to our first question, but like
you have a place for that. So if you if
you need to do it, You've got this big Netflix show,

(01:10:49):
So like, do it there, you know, like and people
can look forward to it and watch it and whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
You know, do it there months later?

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
Yeah, yeah, months later exactly. So yeah, I agree, all right, uh.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Yeah, yeah, I was trying to think about anything else
to say.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
I think i've, I think i've I'm I guess the
thing that I just thought of that I didn't bring
that I was thinking that I didn't bring up yet
is I think the choice. I get why how Johnny
framed it. I think there's there's definitely something to that,
But I think the Sena you're serving John Cena's story,
not just the booking that comes later for Gunther by
having him lose. And and I don't want to concede

(01:11:32):
that they sacrificed the celebration for Sena to help gnther
because I think if they did it right, and they
did it flawed because Paula Beck walked out, got booed,
and the story became something other than Gunther and Sena,
and that is the fault of their own it's also
fault of Sena who you know, decond and Alfrico said,
I hope we entertained you, you know, like, oh, our job
is entertainer rather than our job is for you to
watch us try to win matches. It's just the framing it,

(01:11:53):
and it doesn't crust there. I don't think it crosses
their mind that that's a bad thing. I don't think
they think about it in that way. But it but
it manifests did and they paid a price for it.
But I think a great ending for John Cena is
tapping out and being sad and the fans being sad.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Now what I have.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Voted to have Mis come out after instead of before.
I think I would have and had Mis go, I
should have been in this tournament and John, I would have.
I would have beat you faster than Gunther did. And
I'm so happy you lost because you didn't give me
a chance to be in the spot whatever you know,
miscuts the Miss promo gets in the ring and Seena
is like sitting in the corner and he's like recovering

(01:12:32):
from Gunther and he's listening to this guy and he's like,
oh my god, are you kidding me? And then he
just gets up and you know, gives him an attitude
adjustment and the five knuckles shuffle at and the fan
and then and then just rolls Miss out of the ring,
kicks him out of the ring. Miss lays at the
ground or SLINKs to the back, and we've seen his
music plays and he tells the crowd, Hey, you win some,

(01:12:53):
you lose some. Gunthrough was a better man tonight. But
I gotta say it, you know, kind of felt good
to let out my frustration on miss and thank you
every buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1 (01:13:01):
I mean something along those lines. You could have had both.
Now they chose not to because it takes some of
the focus away from Gunther in the moment they made
their They made their their choice, and I don't think
it was terrible other than the fact that the triple
H thing distracted and they maybe should have seen that coming.
But there was a way to have both. So I
don't think it's either in either or choice, and I

(01:13:21):
think it's okay for fans to be sad, absorb it,
and then have it turned to cheers. Some people, Zach
have said Seena should have addressed the crowd in that
moment to make them feel better. How do you feel
about that? And anything else?

Speaker 2 (01:13:34):
I just added there too.

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
I mean, I honestly, like I I wouldn't have, you know,
I think I would have. I would have done it,
I think the way that they did. And I think
it's okay for fans to leave wrestling shows unhappy, like
that's that's part of the fun. I mean, I just
I don't know, maybe and maybe that's just me. It

(01:13:57):
feels like that. Yeah, but I think it that's okay. Hey,
you know, it makes you want to watch, it makes
you buy into your your favorite babyfaces more like, that's
part of the deal. You can't have really amazing moments
of your big stars winning if you don't have those
same moments. On the other end, they don't matter as
much if you don't have those. And so I just

(01:14:19):
I guess fundamentally I wouldn't have done that, but you
you could have had John Cena come on the mic
if you wanted to like dead in that people being
upset or dead in that disappointment a little bit. Yeah,
I think all it takes is a quick two minute
John Cena promo. I mean, he's really good at those
fiery things, so it would not have taken much.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
But I know you're all sad.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
I'm glad they didn't. I'm glad they didn't, but they
could certainly.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Yeah, I mean he could have just said, I know
you're all sad.

Speaker 2 (01:14:46):
I bummed out. I hope it don't feel I let
you down, and it carls like you didn't let us down.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
We love you, Seena, you know, like and and you
know but but I was the last I give everything
I had and you know, come through is a better
man tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
But you guys, can you know if it's so?

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
You know, like and Sena could have turned it into
a life lesson would he likes to do and just
be like, hey, if you give it your role, even
if you don't win every time, that is okay. I'm
proud of my effort tonight. I'm proud of the preparation
I did, and I'm proud of the fight I put up,
And frankly, I'm proud of what Gunther did.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
He fought hard.

Speaker 1 (01:15:18):
Yeah, you put Gunther over and it's not seen as
nature sadly, even though they market him as this, you know.
I mean, if you listen carefully to what people say
about Sena, there's a lot of things you could say
about a guy that a top star that's not being said. Also,
and it's interesting to run back what all these restlers
are saying about him and go, okay, what might they
say about other Anyway, I don't want to get down
that road. But he could have said that, and that

(01:15:40):
again would have played into how then you would have
gotten your hopes up that Gunther was going to be
a good sport about it, and when he wasn't, to
make you even more angry. And they could have laid
the groundwork for that Saturday night and at the beginning
of Monday, and they did.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
It was a lost opportunity.

Speaker 4 (01:15:53):
Yeah, agree.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
On Chris Maitland and I'm justin McClellans.

Speaker 7 (01:16:01):
We host Wrestling Coast to Coast, where we scour the
wrestling scene to find the best wrestling from the smallest places.

Speaker 8 (01:16:06):
There are thousands of matches happening every week, so Wrestling
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Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
There are plenty of podcasts, de Voters to ww and aw,
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Speaker 8 (01:16:22):
We can't wait to help you find the true hidden
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Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
Justin bemoaning dog pole fins.

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Actually, Chris, I think we stick pretty much to wrestling.

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No, I mean Beyond Wrestling out of Worcester.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
Oh right.

Speaker 7 (01:16:48):
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Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
All Right, JJ Miller Aappa Valley, Minnesota says High Wave
just need to go on record and state how disappointed
I am with paula Vex booking of John Cena's retirement.
I have zero issue with him going out on his
back he should have. What I have issue with is
the lead up to the match and in this place
on what I was just saying about the video package here,
So it's good timing. Am I just supposed to ignore
the video packages that aired right before his match, The

(01:17:34):
one where every major heel in the company saying the
praises of John Cena, complete with little sheets of paper,
is that supposed to exist outside of the cannon. Does
Paul want to blur the lines that much? The myths
literally just ranted about seen it before the package, and
then I see him in it acting all sweet while
I'm likely being a bit dramatic for me. He might
as well start over rebooking who is hell in the company,

(01:17:56):
because based on the video, everyone is a babyface? Do
you think something like this connect to be damaging to
the product going forward? Leveq has has already tiptoed this line,
which you talked about extensively. It just feels like he
walked right over it last weekend. I would much rather
have gone into the match storyline wise believing there are
people in the locker room who still hate John Cena.
That goes beyond ambiguous booking.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
It's just careless. I'd love your thoughts or at the
very least talk me off the edge.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Happy Holidays. It's become a Paul levec bashing show. But
I'm you know, he's in that. He's got big shoulders,
what you deserve. Yeah, yeah, I mean he's got he's
got someone's coming, you know. I Mean, it's it's not like, oh,
shame on him for making mistakes, but you'd hope that
he would learn as he goes and be a leader
and go, let's correct course on some of this stuff.

(01:18:40):
I was a decade ago when w was in the
mode give or take, when they're in the mode of
showing what a great charitable corporation they were, and it was,
you know, just it was about building the corporate image.
Like Wresselmania felt more like they were playing to the
executives in the.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
In the luxury suites more than the fans.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
With all the video packages about the w B brand
and all the good we do, it was just heavy
handed and excessive. Some of the those video packages of
charity work included heels doing charity work, and I was like,
I'm not against heels doing charity work, but don't include
them in the video package on a show when you
want me to not like them and boom. And so
this is an ongoing issue, and there is a cavalier

(01:19:16):
disregard for the immergen the giving fans a peak experience
by allowing them to immerse themselves in the characters by
believing or at least not having conflicting information about the
emotions you feel about them, and they needlessly put headwinds
and speed bumps in there to just feel a certain
way about someone. And that miss example is really good.
So I would have had baby faces put them over.

(01:19:37):
I would have had maybe a retired heel say I'd
have my problems with them, but you know I've come
to respect him or whatever. But yeah, please keep Cannon
consistent on the show going into their match. It it yeah,
I mean, it's it. It undercuts. They think they're serving
the fans by pulling the curtain back, but you're not.

(01:19:58):
You're taking away the peak fan experirits of lighting fans
just immerse themselves in a consistently presented product. It's not
about fans not knowing it's real and fake. It's just
not throwing in their face someone acting completely different one
segment to the next.

Speaker 4 (01:20:10):
I'll take the angle of trying to talk them off
the ledge and the So I didn't have as big
of a I mean everything you say is true, right,
I mean no question about it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
You you thank you, and.

Speaker 4 (01:20:23):
Just argument I will say, I'm this, I'm that particular
on that particular video piece, I thought that because it
was so all encompassing and because it was just I
just thought it was really well done. I first saw

(01:20:44):
that on social media before before Saturday Today's state event,
so that that did not air the first time on
the show, so that was that made its way you
know around, So I saw it before, and it probably
is a better, you know thing to just live on
on social media so that way.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
You're not I mean or not at all.

Speaker 4 (01:21:04):
But the one thing that I that I think it
did was I thought, like going into the going into
Sina's final match, I thought one thing that WWE did
really well is they just I think they captured just
how big of a star he was with without you know,
necessarily like pushing it like too over over the edge.

(01:21:26):
They laid it on thick. But I thought the video
was like well done and that it it just it
showcased to me like, man, this guy, this guy really
means a lot and then bang you have gun thor
like come out and the music opposite that right away
I thought was just a was just a really cool
dynamic to just make sure that all the fans are

(01:21:47):
on the side of of seeing it. Now, you would
have that anyway. You would have had it anyway. But
if you want to be talked off the ledge, I
would say, you know, yeah, this could have helped in
and helping just establish everybody's emotions about it and just like, wow,
this is a huge deal and I think, if nothing else,

(01:22:07):
and for all the bad that video captured, just how
important this was.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
A part part of my lead in the way Keller
Newsbaulton I mentioned a few times here from yesterday is
in my top story. Right up on it, I said
that the reaction to John Cena losing was years in
the making because of the stuff about you know, empowering
the fans to be critics right afterwards and kind of
look at things in a better way, but also as

(01:22:34):
a result of W's polished type machine, like we've yeah,
I've focused. I've focused, you know, more on the telling
fans we're here to entertain you. And you know, my
closing line on my top story was fans made it
clear they didn't feel quote entertained by that finish. I
hate giving away to much people haven't read it yet,
because but I like, I like these you know, kind
of short, pithy write ups that I'm doing in these updates.

(01:22:56):
I've wanted to write more for years and now I'm
I'm giving myself a format to do it, and so
that was that was my book ends.

Speaker 2 (01:23:02):
It's a courage. People gonna read it and go VIP
if you haven't.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
But Defense didn't feel quote entertained by Scena losing, so
they let them would be no, you're supposed to entertain us.
We didn't feel quote entertained properly by this. That played
into it. But the other thing was, it's that wo
to be so good at making a believe John Cena
is all caps the greatest human being whoever lived, and
everybody broke character to tell you that. And my issue

(01:23:27):
with that, I want they did a wonderful job and
it's mostly great. What you want to avoid is making
it look like a Donald Trump four hour cabinet meeting
where every cabinet member talks about how wonderful it is
to serve in his cabinet and how he is the
greatest president ever and no other president's ever done this.
Like it's just it's it plays into obviously Trump's dysfunction

(01:23:48):
in terms of his well established personality traits. And you
don't want it to look like we need to we
need to give all that like John Cena should go
like enough enough, come on, like I mean, I'm proud
of the life I've lived, but this is a little
much like at some point it be a nice for
Sea to say that yeah, and or or convey that

(01:24:09):
and so yeah. You don't want it to seem like
you're just doing it because John Cena's ego requires it,
and it can come across a little heavy handed. And
I think they walked that line. I would have I
would have pulled back a little in terms of celebrating him,
But I also understand the business side of it, and
I think people should understand John Cena is not beloved

(01:24:33):
behind the scenes in w w E. He's not people
like people people like him, some people more than others,
and some people I hear from them do not like him,
and they're like, wait, you got to point this out
on that out, But that's not Dotie's job to paint
a nuanced picture. And by the way, what I just
said is not bearing John c That's true of pretty

(01:24:53):
much everybody, Like maybe Babe, everybody loves Daniel Briyan, like
you know what I mean, Like in w B like,
there's some people who are just like John Zena is
not one of those people who everybody loves but he's
not by any means a cancer, a main event cancer
to locker room either. He's a nuance, complicated person in
some ways, very simple too so, but the job of

(01:25:15):
Delby isn't to convey that they're not journalists. They're not
writing his biography, they're not doing an independent documentary. They
want you to buy his merchandise. That's what they want.
They want you to buy his merchandise and worship him.
And that's what they were doing the last year, especially
the last few weeks, so especially the last few days,
especially the day of the show. That they're a business
and they're marketing someone who they want you to buy

(01:25:37):
their merchandise. And there is so much truth in the
positives that it's believable. But it still was a little much,
and so, you know, just they paid a price for
that with crowd reaction they got. They did such a
good job making people believe Johnsen was so great that
he quote deserved to win in the end, and that
would be the only way they could be entertained.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Yeah, we are running our second VIP sale of the year.
You want to take advantage of this if you've thought
of going VIP or let your sublaps had to step
away for a while, it's a good time to come back.
Pw toorch dot com, slash go Vip tells you about
VIP membership. There is a link to our order form
and you can choose a one month or three month

(01:26:18):
subscription and you can take nine dollars off any of
those three options. The coupon code is Nov twenty twenty
five as in November Nov twenty twenty five to take
nine dollars off. That brings a one month sub down
to three dollars and ninety nine cents. That is a
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(01:26:40):
two decades and more of podcasts on demand, along with
an ad free website, add free versions of our free podcasts,
and a bunch of VIP exclusive features, including podcasts that
are compatible with the Apple Podcast native app and many
other Android and iobs apps, and also the new Wadekeller
news bulletins that come in three formats, a PDF that's
great on a tablet or a laptop screen, an all

(01:27:01):
text version which is great to read on your phone,
and a podcast version. These run about sixteen minutes in
terms of podcast length, and it is a new feature.
I'm running two, three four times a week. I'm going
to try to increase that as my schedule adjust to
this new feature.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
So check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
PW Torch dot com slash go VIP coupon code n
OV twenty twenty five to take nine dollars off a
one month, three month or one year sub. Okay, Dennis
from DMV in parenthiseagoes that's DC Maryland and Virginia, not
the Department of Motor Vehicles.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
I need that clarification. I'd be sad if you're from
the DMV. I wonder if anyone's been been born in
a DMV because the lines are so long they were pranking.
Probably all right, gentlemen, let me start off by saying,
take team back again. It's great to write into the
two of you. Wait in Zach, a non wrestling start
to my email. I appreciate you Wade for your rant
yesterday on the Flagship with Rich Fan followed by Rich's rant.

(01:27:55):
I subscribe to the Torch for a lot of reasons,
and yesterday was a reminder of a big one which
is very relevant right now. Okay, let's get to the
fun stuff talking wrestling. I know we have a contract
signing this week, possibly today between Samo, Jos Vers Strickland
and Hangman Page that's coming up tonight at Dynamite. But
is our dark horse candidate that we should also add
who might win? Maxwell Jacob Freeman. MGF is rumored to

(01:28:16):
be on his way back, potentially in the Dynamite Diamond
Battle Royal. So my questions are this, do you think
MGF puts himself into the three way dance at World's
End to make it a four weight? If so, who
comes out as champion? If MGFF does not get added
to the match, who do you think comes out on top?
Between Joe Swerve and Hangman. Thanks for to do Wade
and Zach. I love the stuff you're doing with Sports Illustrated.
I hope you both have great holidays with your families.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Thank you so much. Dennis email of Email of the
Night Do you agree Email of the Day?

Speaker 4 (01:28:41):
Oh definitely yes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
I'm not gonna throw all the other emailers under the
bus like you just did. Zach.

Speaker 1 (01:28:46):
I think it's close, but I need more compliment, all right? Yeah,
the Diamond the Dynamite Diamond ring. It just rolls off
the tongue. Is is an MGF thing, And uh yeah,
I mean I think people should have their their antenna
up for that as a distinct possibility. Then yeah, he

(01:29:09):
could insert himself in and make it a four way
balancings out of it because you got Joe's heel and
swerve and hang Ment's faces. It's awkward to have two
baby faces who are getting along which hang minutes worth
are against one heel. That would make sense. I'm not,
you know, a big fan of three or four way matches,
but I don't think a four way becomes worse is
worse than a three way. In fact, it's a little
better because you can pair off and you know, fight
in pairs and then it balances a he'll face dynamics.

(01:29:31):
So I'm not against that. So yeah, that my that's
that's my thoughts on the m Jeff thing. And we
can get into if he's not in the match the
outcome also, Zach your thoughts.

Speaker 4 (01:29:40):
So it's it's really interesting when when is this going
to drop? Because there are spoilers that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
Have Tonight After Dynamite Night After.

Speaker 4 (01:29:49):
Okay, I think I kind of hope that for that
for right now, that and Jeff, if he does come back,
is not added into the match. Just I think that
they've told like a pretty strong story with those with

(01:30:09):
the three guys that are in it currently. You know,
you've you've got the beef with Joe and Page, You've
got the beef with Paige and Joe, and then of
course you've got that underlying tension always with with Swarp
Strickland and and and Adam Paige. So if they just
leave it like that, I think they've got something there.
And yeah, it's a little odd because you know, you've

(01:30:30):
got the one heel and that's that'll be an issue
come come match time, like when they're actually having the match.
I don't think that that helps the match out, But
from a storyline angle like that is a match that
I think, it's a triple threat match that I think
actually makes some sense, you know, and and I don't
say that very often about about triple threat matches, but

(01:30:51):
I think they've they've actually built to this one pretty
pretty efficiently, and so it'd be ironic to see the
build to this get derailed by adding a fourth person
into it. So my hope is that they don't go
that route. If they do, I mean, MGF is certainly
a main player and he fits he fits right right
on end, So I don't think it'll be too hard

(01:31:12):
to squeeze him in either.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
Yeah, just give me a quick thoughts on Joe as
champion and what a what about entering twenty twenty six
with him as a champion?

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
Do you think that's a distinct.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
Possibility, a preferred possibility, or if Mgf's not in the match,
doesn't wins, we've and hangman, do you have a strong
preference for one or the other?

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
If not Joe, you know that it's.

Speaker 4 (01:31:35):
A really I think if you had to rewound and
we would have had this this show right after Joe
won it, I kind of my reaction would have been,
what are we doing? Like, what are we doing when
we're back to Joe?

Speaker 7 (01:31:46):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:31:46):
And and and more so than that, where it's just
it's not around the waist of Adam Page, like that's
that's silly. But when you watch Joe on a on
a week to week basis, it's it's fun to watch
both of those babyfaces. Page and Strickland Chase Chase after
Joe and the and the title. I think that they've

(01:32:07):
done a really good job of kind of like I
said just now, like capturing both of their little feuds
with them and then the underlying feud between hey Man
and Swerve is a nice is a nice touch. So
I'm I'm I'm just in the camp of curious to
see where it goes. Like I'm not as against it
as I was, because I think, you know, Page has

(01:32:29):
proven to be a better baby face when he's chasing
down the title and when he's going after the belt,
and you know, now if MGF comes back, then you've
got three people chasing that, and you've got a lot
of stories you can you can play up as the
as they go and chase down Samoa Joe. At some point,
I think You're gonna have to find a way, Tony
con Is to have like a like a really long,

(01:32:53):
not long, but a successful babyface champion for your for
your company. I think so far the best champions have
been have been heeled. So you had your Kenny Omega run,
he was a heel. You had the Big death Rider run,
he was a heel. And then you look at you
know what happened with the champions that were babyfaces? That
beat those guys, Adam Page, seam punky, sort of Strickland,

(01:33:16):
pretty short, and I think, you know, you got to
find a way to get more out of the big
crowning moments that you have for your baby faces. I
still think they're waiting to have a good run for
these guys after they they climbed them out, So I
think that's still priority. I think they still have to

(01:33:36):
get there. But I think Strickland and I think Paige,
and I think Osprey if it ever happens like those
aren't good candidates to be those guys, but they just
haven't done it yet.

Speaker 1 (01:33:47):
We'll close out with just a couple of rapid fire
things here. JB from Detroit says, is the sort that
I bring this up because it's perfect timing. Is the
swarf hangman relationship just violence for the sake of violence.
I'd really like to learn more about their actual dynamic.
How do you think they're doing in that regard in
terms of like swerb and hanging out. They're like, oh,
we're just we're violent against each other and now we're

(01:34:08):
partners in violence with a common enemy. Is is should
we I don't think we need Buddy Coop videos, but
is there should we learn more about how they're doing
to coexisting than just the build up that we saw,
which I thought the build was good. It was a
nice patient story they told about forgiveness and acceptance and
and now embracing each other. But should we learn more
about the dynamic between them, especially because they both have

(01:34:31):
common interest right now that are kind of competing.

Speaker 4 (01:34:34):
Yeah, you know, I don't. I think you don't need
to get too cute with it, Like, you know, I
don't think we need to see them like standing outside
of a burning house or something like that, and like
cutting this promo together or any kind of like you
don't want to do anything like you know, MJF for
Adam Cole, even if even not like funny funny, but

(01:34:57):
just I don't think you need that with that. I
think the less is more with that with that relationship.
I think the great thing about the chemistry that they
have is that you don't have to do too much.
All you got to do is put them in the
ring next to each other, and there's tension and there's drama,
and that's that's that just shows the kind of chemistry
they have and the star power that they have, so

(01:35:17):
I think, yeah, you probably want them cutting a promo
on each other in the ring, and I think you
could put some context around their relationship into the mix
through that. But I think you should leave it at
leave it at that. Just make this, you know, pro
wrestling thing. Let that chemistry speak for itself, and you know,
add a little bit to it with some really solid

(01:35:38):
mic work. But you don't have to overdo it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:41):
Less is more, give yourself a reason to look forward
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(01:36:03):
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(01:36:26):
twenty two. You can get a full year of home
delivery for just ninety nine dollars, or try us for
an eight week trial subscription. PW torch dot com. Slash
paper copy JBLSA says, could the a W title match
at World's End be a four way between Joe Haymen,
Swerve and Eddie Kingston. I think Eddie Kingston could possibly

(01:36:49):
win the title at World's End and MGF returns with
his automatic title shot to ruin the feel good moment.
So there's a twist there. Do you see how storyline
path for that to happen and would you be in
favor of it.

Speaker 4 (01:36:59):
I'm in favor of of Eddie Kingston run to the
to the title.

Speaker 1 (01:37:04):
You know, at some point I think winning or winning,
not just getting a title shot.

Speaker 4 (01:37:07):
Yeah, winning when I think just tell that that, I
think it's a good story. You know that kings is
not going to be a guy that you build the
company around, but if you need to, you know, a
really big all in main event or something like that,
I think people would definitely get behind him being the champion.
That said, right now, I don't think that makes a
lot of sense. I think, you know, he was pretty

(01:37:28):
discarded pretty handily by Joe, and you just have other
players in Swerve and Page that are that are more important.
So I don't I don't foresee that happening. But and
I kind of think if I'm Mandy Kingston, I'd be like,
you know what, like I'll, I'll I don't want to
be the third guy, like in a like the fourth Wheel. Yeah,
like I'll, you know, I'll take my step back and

(01:37:50):
maybe I'll get a shot down the road.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
Yep, very good.

Speaker 1 (01:37:54):
JB also wants to know where does Tony Storm go
from here. She's obviously huge act who's earned main event
TV time, but she's currently in a face take team
with Mina Shirakawa. It wouldn't really make sense for them
to chase another face tag team champs who they just
lost to. Does Tony go back to being a single star,
and if so, where does Mina go?

Speaker 4 (01:38:10):
Boy, that's a good question. It's a really good question.
I think, Well, right on the gate, I can say
I don't think where Mina goes is a priority, you know,
I think it's like Tony Storm is the is the
priority here? Then sure Mina Shirkawa. That's a good a
nice piece of that puzzle. But you know, if if

(01:38:31):
if Tony Storm hanging back into singles competition is the
way you want to go, and you know, okay, you can
find something else for mena. So I don't think it's
necessary to keep to keep them together as as a
tag team. And to that end, my answer, you know,
to me, would be, she has to be a singles
act with the company. I just think that, like this

(01:38:53):
is this is her prime. I mean, she's right there.
She's got one of the most kind of unique gimmicks
and one the most over gammicks. And it's also like
a really a true character, an act that was built
in aw and I think that I think that counts
for something. And so I just I would like to
see Tony Kahan have an ability to book you know,

(01:39:15):
women's singles programs that don't have the title around them,
you know, like I and I think that, you know,
Tony Storm doesn't have to be in the championship picture necessarily,
because I think if she's there, you know, all the time,
that would get old. But I don't think she has
to be tucked away in a tag team either, And
I kind of feel like that's where she is now,
she's just kind of tucked away and she's there and

(01:39:36):
she's on the show, and she's not really a focus.
She's a lot like Real Ripley in that regard, right,
It's like she's a big star, but she's kind of
tucked away doing this tag team thing and that's what
she's doing. And I would just take the light and
shine it right on her, even if the title's not there.

Speaker 2 (01:39:52):
Is the answer to introduce another women's title.

Speaker 4 (01:39:55):
Stop, wait, the women's National Championship? No, no, oh god, I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
Finally, in JV's email here, Wheeler You, it gets nuclear
heat and it's starting to rub.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
Off on Danny Garcia too.

Speaker 1 (01:40:08):
I really think those two should get a decent push
as a strong heel tag team one.

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
I agree with that. I mean, like, Wheeler You is delightful.

Speaker 1 (01:40:14):
The crowd loves booing him the way they love booing
Don Callous, the way they love booing Dom. However, I
want to make a side point here, what if Wheeler
Youdi came on and talked about all the charity work
he does or how great he thinks hang Man pages
as a talent and he represents the company so well
Like the point is when you got a heel who

(01:40:36):
people don't like, don't have them break character for the
sake of some video packages.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
It doesn't matter that much. So yeah, Wheeler, you is great.
And I mean, deep down, I think you know, fans
just fiscate enough to know that if we lear you
it was with their neighbor, he'd probably be a pretty
cool guy to have his a neighbor. But man, is
it fun booing him?

Speaker 1 (01:40:54):
And they are not giving you any reason to think
differently about him, nor should they, And yeah, take advantage
of that if you're Tony Kahan, like to me, like
the peak experience for fans is that Sammy's a and
Montreal against Roman Rains is a hot yeld like jay Us,
So you know, fighting from underneath and letting the fans
get behind.

Speaker 2 (01:41:10):
If we saw it with Speedball last week.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
Like, when you have someone who fans like and you
have arrestlers who fans don't like, don't blow up your
booking plans, but like, try to try to figure out
a way to weave that in and take advantage of
it and do so in a way that's meaningful. Don't
overdo it, but you know, having them be a heel
tag team against a baby Face team. I think you
can go all the way with them as credible top

(01:41:33):
challengers to the tag titles if you tell the story
the right way.

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
Over the course of a couple of months.

Speaker 4 (01:41:37):
Telling the story the right way would help. There's also
a point part of me that you know, if I
was Wheedler you to, I'd kind of be like, do
I have to be saddled with Dana Garcia? Like I
think he's just I mean, I don't think Daniel Garcia
is a is a bad is a bad talent, but
it's like in the last two years, he's been this,
and he's been that, and he's been this, and he's

(01:41:58):
been that, and now he's this, and like he's kind
of talking bad and he's got the hood up and
it's just like nobody knows how to feel about that
guy and I and because of that, when he talks,
I'm just like, I'm not sure. I don't buy it
as much as I buy either you to when he
when he's cutting a promo. So they're definitely not a
bad period. But I think I honestly think if you

(01:42:20):
were to ask me right now, like which which guy
would I would I'd rather have I mean, it's weel
you to alone by a marge.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
Yep, yeah, yeah, I think that's a fair affair point
for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
Cool. Why don't we wrap up their act?

Speaker 4 (01:42:38):
Awesome? Awesome? That was. That was some some really uh
some really good questions. I'm glad. I'm glad I got
invited to do that. So thank you Wade, and thanks
you absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
I'm glad it worked out on relatively short notice. And
I also am glad that rich Fan and I on
the flag ship yesterday did not try to tackle all
these emails on the slag ship because whether they've been
a really long show or would not have done anything
but read the emails and give a one word answer
yes and no in order to fit within a reasonable
amount of time. By the way, you can replenish anytime
the inbox. I'm here at the Waitkeller Progressing Podcast, Wade

(01:43:08):
Keller Podcast at gmail dot com, Wade Keller Podcast at
gmail dot com. If you watch our shows, if you
watch Raw Dynamite and SmackDown Live, you can participate in
the mailbag section of the Wade Keller Progrestling post shows
by emailing Wadekeller postshow dot com and even if you
don't watch our live stream on YouTube afterwards, you can

(01:43:29):
hear your email on the podcast audio only version on
our podcast feed afterwards, and that's a good way to
participate there. You can always reach me at kellerwadeat gmail
dot com for any general topics. Also, Zach Final just
remind people Final Plug for how to find your stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:43:45):
Yeah, yeah, thank you and thanks again everybody. You can
check out myself at Sports Illustrated the Takedown on us
I all throughout the week, and also would love for
you to check out my substack Brassturm Media all kinds
of wrestling writing there. Just search Rationing Media substack and
it'll pop up. It's totally free to subscribe to and
so would would love to get your eyes on it.

Speaker 1 (01:44:07):
Thank you, you bet, Thanks everybody for joining us, and
if we don't talk to before then we probably will.
But have a great holiday week ahead and hopefully you stay.

Speaker 2 (01:44:17):
Healthy with all the germs going around, all.

Speaker 1 (01:44:18):
Those snot nosed kids touching handles and not washing their
hands and all that, and hopefully time with your family.

Speaker 2 (01:44:27):
It is pleasant, if not delightful. Thanks everybody. We'll talk
to you any time.

Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
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(01:45:12):
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(01:45:32):
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Speaker 9 (01:45:45):
Searching for more great pro wrestling talk, then join me.
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