November 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Want to stop trying to serve everyone and finally own your lane?
In this episode of Walk In Victory, host NaRon Tillman sits down with entrepreneur Jon Morris to break down how niching down and leaning into creativity helped him build and sell a successful digital marketing agency.
They get real about:
Episode Timestamps
00:00 – Overcoming the fear of niching down
00:13 – Host intro and episode overview
00:40 – Why creativity matters in modern business
01:00 – Jon’s personal background and agency experience
01:32 – The decline of creativity in education
02:30 – How to foster creativity in children (and teams)
03:06 – Jon’s story and first steps into creativity and business
09:30 – The role of focus in business success
13:35 – The real benefits of niching down
20:09 – Selling a business: Jon’s personal insights
26:40 – Innovation, customer feedback, and staying relevant
29:26 – Final takeaways and call to action
Call to Action
If this episode helped you think differently about your niche or your creativity, share it with another entrepreneur who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Walk In Victory for more real conversations with leaders, creators, and visionaries who are building lives and businesses on purpose.
Connect With Jon
Website
Linkedin
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/walk-in-victory--4078479/support.
🎧 Thanks for listening to Walk In Victory with NaRon Tillman!
Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share this episode with someone who needs encouragement today.
✨ Sponsored by Cozy Earth – Elevate your rest with luxury bedding. Use code VICTORY1 for 40% off at cozyearth.com.
🔗 Stay connected:
In this episode of Walk In Victory, host NaRon Tillman sits down with entrepreneur Jon Morris to break down how niching down and leaning into creativity helped him build and sell a successful digital marketing agency.
They get real about:
- Why most founders are afraid to niche down (and how that fear kills growth)
- How to use creativity and innovation as a competitive advantage
- The power of focusing on a specific market segment instead of trying to reach everyone
- What Jon learned from building and exiting his digital marketing agency
- How to listen to your customers and turn their feedback into profitable offers
Episode Timestamps
00:00 – Overcoming the fear of niching down
00:13 – Host intro and episode overview
00:40 – Why creativity matters in modern business
01:00 – Jon’s personal background and agency experience
01:32 – The decline of creativity in education
02:30 – How to foster creativity in children (and teams)
03:06 – Jon’s story and first steps into creativity and business
09:30 – The role of focus in business success
13:35 – The real benefits of niching down
20:09 – Selling a business: Jon’s personal insights
26:40 – Innovation, customer feedback, and staying relevant
29:26 – Final takeaways and call to action
Call to Action
If this episode helped you think differently about your niche or your creativity, share it with another entrepreneur who needs to hear it. Subscribe to Walk In Victory for more real conversations with leaders, creators, and visionaries who are building lives and businesses on purpose.
Connect With Jon
Website
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/walk-in-victory--4078479/support.
🎧 Thanks for listening to Walk In Victory with NaRon Tillman!
Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and share this episode with someone who needs encouragement today.
✨ Sponsored by Cozy Earth – Elevate your rest with luxury bedding. Use code VICTORY1 for 40% off at cozyearth.com.
🔗 Stay connected:
- 🌍 Website: walkinvictory.me
- 💼 LinkedIn: NaRon Tillman
- 📸 Instagram: @walkinvictorypodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, here's what I'll tell you is, you know, the
number one reason people don't niche down is fear, right,
fear that you're going to be turning someone away.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I don't know what time you're listening or a were
you listening for I Miss Your Boy your listener until
it and you are with me for another episode of
Walk in Victory. Speaking of Victory Walks, I'm gonna make
a statement and we're going to clarify the statement through conversation.
If you're trying to become wealthy from competition instead of creativity,
(00:39):
it won't work. Competition you look at somebody else and
you try to beat them to the mark you and
you're not really building from your internal self. Our book
is coming out Awakening I Am, and we talk about
about this because is your blue pray, the thing that
(01:00):
you bring to the world. A coach can help you
align it, but it's still your blueprint. You can't be
your coach, you can't be someone else. And creativity comes
from confidence. Creativity comes from mindset. Creativity comes from art,
and that's the side of the brain that sometimes goes
(01:22):
undeveloped because in our society we don't lean no more
towards artists. Before we used to lean towards the artists,
the culture people who were creative, and we look to
them to solve problems and everything like that. And we
had curriculums in schools that fostered or enforced creativity. Now,
(01:52):
no music, nothing that works on that side of the brain,
nothing that helps to promote creativity. If it's almost like
you're an alien if you become creatives. But creativity is
not just for music or just for art. This also
for business because the persons that are creating innovative technology
(02:18):
are doing it from that side of the brain. They're
doing it from seeing a problem, diving into the problem,
and creating a solution. So we're going to talk about creativity,
We're going to talk about business. We're going to talk
about old things and why it's important even in twenty
twenty five that you are putting your children listen. I'll
(02:40):
be fifty in September. Right now. I make sure that
my children play the piano. I make sure that they
are involved in sports. I make sure that they're working
on that side of their brain. My daughters in Howard
University for music sounding irapy. You know, she's she's she's
(03:05):
the musician of the house now I used to be,
but it's way more invested. And John, how are you
doing service.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Excited to have a good conversation about creativity.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And why do you think that we've lost in in
this day and age where we should be like continuing
the monicum of innovation and creativity. Why do you think
that we've lost that?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I think it really has to do with, honestly, what
you deem important. And I think that people get stuck
into the status quo of this is what I do
and I might be doing well at it, I might
not be doing well at it, but they get stuck
into the status quo. And I'm maybe a believer in
(04:10):
I was saying that if it's a goal, then you
have to put budget against it. And so it's not
just about being creative, it's about making that creative live,
and so you have to actually put money against it.
You know. Like people kind of me and they say
(04:30):
they want to grow faster. I'm like, great, well how
much do you put into sales and market It's like, oh,
it's all word abouth like, well, then you don't want
to grow if you're not putting any money into sales
and marketing, and then people will come of me and say, hey,
I really want to be innovative. I was like, cool,
how much money do you spend an innovation? Oh, we
don't do anything. And I was like, well, then you
don't really want to be innovative. And so, you know,
(04:52):
if you want to be creative, if you want to
be innovative, I think it's two elements. The first element
is you have an idea that's going to separate you,
you know, from everyone else, so that you're not just
a me too as you were talking about like all
your other competitors. You're going to feel and look and
sound different. And then the next one is, well, I'm going
(05:12):
to budget to be creative and to be innovative and
to come up with new ideas.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Couldn't agree more. Creativity is a massive component of business,
you know, and if you're not investing in that creativity,
then you're gonna.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
When I was stronger, I went to drink business school, right.
I thought that I was going to learn how to
be innovatable, creative. I had my own business and I
wasn't a business person practice, so having a business doesn't
make you a good business person just you have a
incorporation or LC doesn't mean that you know what you do.
(05:51):
But when I went to the school, but they taught me,
They taught me how to do the things. Yeah, they
didn't teach me business. How do you think that this economy,
this world can move forward if we don't have people
who aren't teaching people how to do business. Some of
it is innate, but some people just need to be trained.
(06:12):
They may have a good products, they may have good ideas,
but they don't know how to do business.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
But you know, you talked about how you know you
have your kids in music, and you have your kids
forward so that your daughter has surpassed you in terms
of her musical ability, right, and I'm guessing she did
a massive amount of training in order to surpass you.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And business is no different.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, first of all, when you think of business,
you have so many different components of business.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
When you go to business school, a lot of.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
It is like financial related classes or accounting or you
know what I mean, Like it's very specif ethic. But
you know, there's sales in marketing, there's how do you
make your product or service better? How do you build
operational efficiencies within your company so that things run smoothly.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And so I I really believe that if you want
to be great.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
At business, you have to put in just as many
hours as your daughter has put into music.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And you know, same thing with sports, you know. And
you know I mentioned to you before.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know, soccer is my passion and I spent a
lot of time coaching my daughters in soccer.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
In order to be great at any sport, or any
musical instrument or in business, there is a massive amount
of really boring stuff that you've got to learn how
to do, and you got to learn how to do
them great. You know the amount of time I have,
you know, my daughter's like juggling or dribbling through cones
(08:05):
back and forth with different patterns. You know. Uh, it's boring,
you know, and I got to figure out, because they're young,
how to mix it up and make it fun. But
that's the thing that you got to do to make
it great. And you know, same thing like I believe in.
So the answer is, I don't. I believe there are
mentors who can teach you and train you, you know,
(08:28):
But I believe in this thing called theme based reading
and theme based reading is you know what, I'm going
to read six books on sales, and then I'm going
to read six books on marketing, and then I'm going
to read six books on operations. And so by having
this theme based approach, Uh, you can become a master
at business in multiple.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And I love the fact that you've given audience something
to bite or what happens with the mindset when we
focus in on one system and then we move through
another system.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Now, sometimes we may be pushed those hit sales in
marketing and all over the place, But when we have
this focused intent and the focus intent focus results.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
What happens to the brain? What's going on with us?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So you bring up a good point. So, like one
of the things I talk about in business is the
importance of focus. And I start off with, don't try
to sell to everybody. Try to sell to a very
narrow group and then try to have a service offering
for that group.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
But before we even do.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
That, UH, you need to have a vision. And that
vision is what you're trying to achieve for those customers.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So I'll just give you a quick example.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I own a finance management and strategic planning company, which
means I take over the finance department and I help
with executive coaching and strategic planning, but only for service
based companies and typically between ten.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Million and one hundred million in revenue.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And the goal is I created this acronym called the
CPR score, and the cprs to score stands for how
much cash you have relative to your monthly overhead, your
profit margin, and your year over year revenue growth. So
CPR is a play on health and then it's an
(10:33):
acronym for cash, profit margin, and revenue growth. And my
only goal, every single thing I put my time and
energy into, all my creativity, all my innovation is around
improving the CPR score for service based companies. So if
a retailer calls me, a manufacturer calls me, the answer
(10:54):
is I can't help them. Maybe I know somebody can
help them, but I'm not going to try to solve
their problem. So by narrowing it down, now.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
You know I can come up with all creative ideas.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know, I'm about to come up with an AI
CFO in about a month, and I build up budgeting
and forecasting software tool, and I've written an ebook to
help people understand all the things you need to do,
and so, uh, you know, I believe that greatness starts
by being great for one group of people, not great
(11:27):
for everybody.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
So I think that focus isn't really good.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You brought that up. And this is the first time
that in the history of Marleful one hundred and plus episodes,
that someone is really talking about being specific, but being
specific in a certain way, right, Because what happens is
and you can correct you along when you go to bed,
because you're creating for that one thing, you continue to create.
(11:54):
You continue to create, You continue to create, and that helps.
Does that help you get better and better than faster
and stronger like Superman?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
In my opinion, it absolutely does. You know, And I
also think you know, the more you learn something, the
more you realize how little you know, right, Like I
think there's like a I think there's a cool graph
somewhere where it shows like how much now is someone
thinks they have And as they study something more, they
realize they know less than they think they did.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
And so.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, you don't want to boil the ocean. You know,
you want to boil a small pot.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And so.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You know, and then you can as you get bigger,
you can get a bigger pot, you know, and you
can keep on growing in that regard. But you know
that's my big thing is you know, let's let's narrow
it down, let's be great at something.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And then move the amount. Like I've listened very clear
mostly to what you said, is not just a certain
type of person or a certain type of business. Is
a certain type of business that's moving this amount of
money in revenue? Oh, how did you come up with that? Like,
(13:18):
you know, geniuses aren't born overnight, but it was tell
us about your experience? How did you come up with
this type of niche Darren Approach.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Previous to this company, I founded a digital marketing agency
and I grew up from just me to about two
hundred and fifty people. Uh, and so I did fairly
well with this company. But I was a generalist agency.
And when what that meant was I had cliented in
B to B B two C e commerce, legion branding,
(14:00):
and I recognized a problem. You know, we we spent
a lot of money on innovation, but the innovation was
not very impactful because you know, if I was innovating
for one group, I wasn't innovating for another group.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
And I'll just give you an example.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
There's something in digital marketing called marketplaces, So like you
can actually advertise on Amazon, on Walmart, on Target, on Instacart.
And had a bunch of e commerce companies that wanted
to advertise on those sites. And that was about twenty
percent of my clients. And it took me about six
months worth of development time to build the integrations with
(14:41):
all of those different platforms in my technology.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
So for six months.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
After I went live, only twenty percent of my customers
benefited from that because the eighty percent of the the
other customers could care less about being on Amazon, you know,
like they're a B to B company, they don't need
to sell on Amazon, and so and then I would
do six months of time building out my B to
B connections. And so one of the things you really
(15:12):
want to think about is like how impactful is your
creativity and your innovation And if you are having a
really homogeneous group where you build something and it is only.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
For that group, everyone benefits.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And so, uh, that's one of the huge benefits of
nicheing down is the impact will be greater and greater
for you know everyone.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
In and I'm glad that you vlable and shared that
story because on the surface, someone would say, oh, you
had two hundred and fifty employees, you were able to
understand the market. Generally, building a digital marketing agency is
not that easy at all. But if you were honest
(16:01):
with yourself and you said I'm underserving because I'm not
niche down, how how was that that world view and
that and that transition for you. Did you have to
fight with yourself and wrestle with yourself to say, I'll
have to be niche there? Because the problem with niche
(16:22):
and down and not the problem h caabiat with niche
and down. You may have customers that you have to
turn away. And when when someone is with business, it's
hard to run to write some customers.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, well, here's what I'll tell you is, you know,
the number one reason people don't niche down is fear, right,
fear that you're going to be turning someone away. You know,
I'm five years into this new company. I only work
with service based company. It's very clear on my website.
(17:02):
My phone rings all the time, but they're only service
based companies, you know. So it's that fear that you
know your phone's not going to ring, but your phone
actually ends up ringing more because you you have such
better focus on your sales and marketing, and that you
have a better value popposition, and then your win rate
(17:23):
is higher.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
You know, when I'm in a you know.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
If I'm certain that I'm talking to a marketing agency
and they got troubles with their finances and they need help,
or they they were growing fast and all of a
sudden they plat toaed and they don't know how to
grow anymore. And I'm in a pitch and I get
to tell them I owned a marketing agency.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I grew up from zero to almost forty million.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I currently only work with service based companies, and ninety
five percent of them are either marketing agencies or tech
service firms. My credibility is so high that they're like,
you know what, You're the guy I want to work with.
You know where someone calls me up and they're in
manufacturing and I know nothing about inventory. I don't know
(18:05):
how much inventory someone should hold. You know, I'm sure
I can learn it. I have no experience in manufacturing.
You know, I just don't have the right to win
in that space, right now and so by nicheing down,
you can get the right to win your book.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
The right to wing.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Niche down, Let's give you the look. Oh, so now
you're you're going on podcasting, you're spreading this message. Why
why are you doing this? Like you can be selfish,
but you're being artruistic and you're showing people that even
though you only serve a certain population, but the knowledge
(18:53):
that you're sharing can be fruitful in any industry.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah. You know, look, I really just enjoy helping people.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
You know, when I when I sold Rise, my last
my digital agency, and I thought about what to do next.
I had a had a business coach, and uh, every
three months we would do my quarterly planning together and
every three months he's like, you know, the insights you
have like nothing I've ever seen. You could create a
(19:29):
company just helping people with those insights. And I thought
that would be fun to do. You know, I thought
if I could help other companies, uh grow and be
as successful as my last company or more successful like that,
that's an amazing feeling. And so I like coming onto
podcasts and sharing you know, guidance where if I can
(19:51):
help people improve their decision making and help them grow
an amazing business.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You know, I feel really good about that. I feel
like I'm doing my part with company.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You you built the company from zero to forty plus.
How is that detachment? Talk to me about the mindset
the process when you was really releasing your baby, because
it's almost like sending you a kid to college or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, Look, I decided in October of twenty nineteen I
was going to sell, and then in April first of
twenty twenty is when I stepped down and I was.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
No longer CEO and involved in the company.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
The amount of anxiety I had between October and April
was through the roof.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It was a very stressful, unpleasant time, and I worried
about so many things. And then when I left, all
I really cared about was that the buyer got a
good deal.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
You know, I really liked the pe people who bought
the company.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
They're good people, and you know, I just wanted them
to do well. They impacted my life in a major
way for the sale, and so I wanted to make
sure that they got their money's worth and that it turned.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Out to be a good investment.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I'm cheering for them, I'm their biggest cheerleader, you know,
But I honestly I love what I do today. And
as you said, it's like someone gone to college. Is
a little bit different because you're going to have a
lifelong relationship. I don't have a lifelong relationship with my
old company, but I do have a lifelong relationship with
(21:38):
my leadership team.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Just this last weekend, I have texted every single member
of my leadership team except for one person in the
last two days. And I taught to that person a
week ago, you know, So like we're still very very
close to all of us.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Why so for somebody who maybe like when you know
is a good time to you said you made the
decision in October. Ye, did you feel as if you
took the company as far as you can go? Or
you just felt like that now is the time because
most people would hold on too long and ain and it.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Was they were.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, there were three reasons I sold. Reason number one
was all of my wealth was tied up into that
one asset, and I now had a wife, I had daughters,
have three daughters, and I really just wanted to diversify.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
So that was one reason. Reason number two.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Was I start generally around July of planning out the
next year, and I had a great plan for twenty twenty.
The only problem was it was the exact same plan
as twenty nineteen, and I was a little bit bored,
you know, like you know, we talk about you know,
(23:09):
creativity and innovation, and I just felt like I wasn't
doing anything new and I really wanted to learn and
like have new challenges.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So that was the reason number two.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And then there was just some personal reasons where some
you know, one of my family members really needed my
time at that moment, and I wanted.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
To be there for that person.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So those were the kind of the three main reasons.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
You know, you saw articulate. But I hope our audience
can seek everything you do as well thought out. You don't,
you don't seem like the person the type of person
that just moves from the head. I think that sometimes
people mix creativity from creativity and still being well polished
(23:51):
or well thought They think that those are the two
are the same thing. It is not. Can you explain
the difference?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know, Look, I think everyone is creative. You know,
they might not know it, but everyone is creative. And
it really just comes down to there are two things
that come from creativity. The first are ideas, and the
second is the risk and the willingness to.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Pursue those ideas.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And you know, I'll give an example. I spend a
really large percentage of our revenue on innovation and technology.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So I'm nick I'm taking my ideas.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And I'm putting them to life, and I don't have
to do that, but I also believe that, you know,
it allows me to truly be different from our competition,
you know, like you you taught to be four Like
in the opening about you know, don't focus on the competitor,
(24:58):
focus on the creativity. And the only twist I would
add to that is focus on being different from your competition,
being more creative than your competition. Don't be the same
as your competition, and by spending more on innovations like
this is what I tell everybody. On January one, the
(25:21):
business year starts, and I want your business to be
better at December thirty one than it is on January one.
And the only way you're going to do that is
if you budget for it. If you are not going
to put your money where your mouth is, then your
business is going to be exactly the same. But even
(25:41):
if you make incremental improvements like a one percent improvement
every ninety days over five years, that combounds to a
really large number of improvements.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
And if none of your competition.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Is spending that briney and innovating and making themselves better,
and you just you build, if you can hear you
so that you have something different from everybody else.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I think it's mine thirty nine percent. I got so
many people on similarly to not dinection is good. There
you go, you're back, you know there was all right.
I have one more question for you, and and this
(26:28):
is thank you so much for sharing your your your
wisdom with our audience. And this was a great conversation
and I'm pretty sure people learn feel a whole lot
smarter after our commer season. Oh but when we look
at what's going on now with and I'm gonna specifically
look at the chat GPT roll out when they rolled
(26:50):
out five and how people was up in arms because
they were so used to four. And this is my
whole thing about the competition. Competition drives, is driving all
of these companies to try to roll out, roll out,
roll out, roll out, and they're not listening to the audience.
(27:11):
And even though these these tools and systems may be
a bit innovative and creative, you still got to listen
to your audience. What did they do wrong? And if
you were advising on what would you have told them
to do? Rolls in again, Ah, Man, I wanted that answer.
(27:43):
Did you hear me? No?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
But I think I got the question like, like, are
you innovating that's helping your customers and are you listening
to your customers or are you just innovating for the space?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
They didn't taking consideration because they just thought the product
was going to be better and everybody was going to
draw a line. And the customers like, well, we don't
we first of all, we don't know who was coming.
Then we don't have this right.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
So when it comes to creativity and innovation, the most
important thing that you have to think about is what
are you building next? And ideally what you're innovating on
is going to help your customers solve their pain point.
And so if you were choosing things that add no
(28:36):
value to your customers, then it becomes a hobby. You
know what I'm saying, Like, you're not building something that's
special and so it really talks about listening to your
customers and understanding, you know, what what their needs are.
And so if you go back to my comment before
(28:56):
of I know who my customers are trying to improve
their CPR score, and my innovation now is all around that. Now,
it could be that my clients don't care about increasing
their cash, their profit margin, or their revenue growth.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
But I have a feeling that you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Not many companies that would have a problem with any
one of those three. But now I got to think
about you know what am I building and you know
will solve those you're having.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Everybody, I told you we always sit you at the
feet of the best. We sit you at the feet
of the masters, persons who have not just talk to talk,
but they walk the walk, and we have conversations to
help you even off your life. We don't act you
for cash, apps, for venmos or any of those things.
But what we do acts is that you support our
guests on John's all of his information is in the description.
(29:50):
Go and follow him on social media, let him know
that you heard his voice here on our platform. And
then not just support our guests, but that you hit like,
share and subscribe, your subscriptions, your lights, your sharers. Help
these conversations get to the ears of people that need it.
We're not just talking for Tok's sake. We want to
see people lives change. And finally, our book is out.
(30:14):
Our book. By the time you're hearing this, the book
should be out. But if it's not, welcome victory dot
me awaken, I am. We have agents. We have all
of these things that we're bringing to you, our listening audience,
and we want you to learn how to prompt. So
we're showing that the intersection between prompt engineering and subconscious
(30:38):
prompting for a better life. The only difference is the
subconscious mind may take a little bit longer. Loves really
really rapid. Enjoy the rest of your day. Peace right
Well, here's what I'll tell you is, you know, the
number one reason people don't niche down is fear, right,
fear that you're going to be turning someone away.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I don't know what time you're listening or a were
you listening for I Miss Your Boy your listener until
it and you are with me for another episode of
Walk in Victory. Speaking of Victory Walks, I'm gonna make
a statement and we're going to clarify the statement through conversation.
If you're trying to become wealthy from competition instead of creativity,
(00:39):
it won't work. Competition you look at somebody else and
you try to beat them to the mark you and
you're not really building from your internal self. Our book
is coming out Awakening I Am, and we talk about
about this because is your blue pray, the thing that
(01:00):
you bring to the world. A coach can help you
align it, but it's still your blueprint. You can't be
your coach, you can't be someone else. And creativity comes
from confidence. Creativity comes from mindset. Creativity comes from art,
and that's the side of the brain that sometimes goes
(01:22):
undeveloped because in our society we don't lean no more
towards artists. Before we used to lean towards the artists,
the culture people who were creative, and we look to
them to solve problems and everything like that. And we
had curriculums in schools that fostered or enforced creativity. Now,
(01:52):
no music, nothing that works on that side of the brain,
nothing that helps to promote creativity. If it's almost like
you're an alien if you become creatives. But creativity is
not just for music or just for art. This also
for business because the persons that are creating innovative technology
(02:18):
are doing it from that side of the brain. They're
doing it from seeing a problem, diving into the problem,
and creating a solution. So we're going to talk about creativity,
We're going to talk about business. We're going to talk
about old things and why it's important even in twenty
twenty five that you are putting your children listen. I'll
(02:40):
be fifty in September. Right now. I make sure that
my children play the piano. I make sure that they
are involved in sports. I make sure that they're working
on that side of their brain. My daughters in Howard
University for music sounding irapy. You know, she's she's she's
(03:05):
the musician of the house now I used to be,
but it's way more invested. And John, how are you
doing service.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Excited to have a good conversation about creativity.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
And why do you think that we've lost in in
this day and age where we should be like continuing
the monicum of innovation and creativity. Why do you think
that we've lost that?
Speaker 1 (03:46):
I think it really has to do with, honestly, what
you deem important. And I think that people get stuck
into the status quo of this is what I do
and I might be doing well at it, I might
not be doing well at it, but they get stuck
into the status quo. And I'm maybe a believer in
(04:10):
I was saying that if it's a goal, then you
have to put budget against it. And so it's not
just about being creative, it's about making that creative live,
and so you have to actually put money against it.
You know. Like people kind of me and they say
(04:30):
they want to grow faster. I'm like, great, well how
much do you put into sales and market It's like, oh,
it's all word abouth like, well, then you don't want
to grow if you're not putting any money into sales
and marketing, and then people will come of me and say, hey,
I really want to be innovative. I was like, cool,
how much money do you spend an innovation? Oh, we
don't do anything. And I was like, well, then you
don't really want to be innovative. And so, you know,
(04:52):
if you want to be creative, if you want to
be innovative, I think it's two elements. The first element
is you have an idea that's going to separate you,
you know, from everyone else, so that you're not just
a me too as you were talking about like all
your other competitors. You're going to feel and look and
sound different. And then the next one is, well, I'm going
(05:12):
to budget to be creative and to be innovative and
to come up with new ideas.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
And so I.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Couldn't agree more. Creativity is a massive component of business,
you know, and if you're not investing in that creativity,
then you're gonna.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
When I was stronger, I went to drink business school, right.
I thought that I was going to learn how to
be innovatable, creative. I had my own business and I
wasn't a business person practice, so having a business doesn't
make you a good business person just you have a
incorporation or LC doesn't mean that you know what you do.
(05:51):
But when I went to the school, but they taught me,
They taught me how to do the things. Yeah, they
didn't teach me business. How do you think that this economy,
this world can move forward if we don't have people
who aren't teaching people how to do business. Some of
it is innate, but some people just need to be trained.
(06:12):
They may have a good products, they may have good ideas,
but they don't know how to do business.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
But you know, you talked about how you know you
have your kids in music, and you have your kids
forward so that your daughter has surpassed you in terms
of her musical ability, right, and I'm guessing she did
a massive amount of training in order to surpass you.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And business is no different.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You know, first of all, when you think of business,
you have so many different components of business.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
When you go to business school, a lot of.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
It is like financial related classes or accounting or you
know what I mean, Like it's very specif ethic. But
you know, there's sales in marketing, there's how do you
make your product or service better? How do you build
operational efficiencies within your company so that things run smoothly.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And so I I really believe that if you want
to be great.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
At business, you have to put in just as many
hours as your daughter has put into music.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
And you know, same thing with sports, you know. And
you know I mentioned to you before.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
You know, soccer is my passion and I spent a
lot of time coaching my daughters in soccer.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
In order to be great at any sport, or any
musical instrument or in business, there is a massive amount
of really boring stuff that you've got to learn how
to do, and you got to learn how to do
them great. You know the amount of time I have,
you know, my daughter's like juggling or dribbling through cones
(08:05):
back and forth with different patterns. You know. Uh, it's boring,
you know, and I got to figure out, because they're young,
how to mix it up and make it fun. But
that's the thing that you got to do to make
it great. And you know, same thing like I believe in.
So the answer is, I don't. I believe there are
mentors who can teach you and train you, you know,
(08:28):
But I believe in this thing called theme based reading
and theme based reading is you know what, I'm going
to read six books on sales, and then I'm going
to read six books on marketing, and then I'm going
to read six books on operations. And so by having
this theme based approach, Uh, you can become a master
at business in multiple.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And I love the fact that you've given audience something
to bite or what happens with the mindset when we
focus in on one system and then we move through
another system.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Now, sometimes we may be pushed those hit sales in
marketing and all over the place, But when we have
this focused intent and the focus intent focus results.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
What happens to the brain? What's going on with us?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So you bring up a good point. So, like one
of the things I talk about in business is the
importance of focus. And I start off with, don't try
to sell to everybody. Try to sell to a very
narrow group and then try to have a service offering
for that group.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
But before we even do.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
That, UH, you need to have a vision. And that
vision is what you're trying to achieve for those customers.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
So I'll just give you a quick example.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I own a finance management and strategic planning company, which
means I take over the finance department and I help
with executive coaching and strategic planning, but only for service
based companies and typically between ten.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Million and one hundred million in revenue.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And the goal is I created this acronym called the
CPR score, and the cprs to score stands for how
much cash you have relative to your monthly overhead, your
profit margin, and your year over year revenue growth. So
CPR is a play on health and then it's an
(10:33):
acronym for cash, profit margin, and revenue growth. And my
only goal, every single thing I put my time and
energy into, all my creativity, all my innovation is around
improving the CPR score for service based companies. So if
a retailer calls me, a manufacturer calls me, the answer
(10:54):
is I can't help them. Maybe I know somebody can
help them, but I'm not going to try to solve
their problem. So by narrowing it down, now.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
You know I can come up with all creative ideas.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
You know, I'm about to come up with an AI
CFO in about a month, and I build up budgeting
and forecasting software tool, and I've written an ebook to
help people understand all the things you need to do,
and so, uh, you know, I believe that greatness starts
by being great for one group of people, not great
(11:27):
for everybody.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
So I think that focus isn't really good.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You brought that up. And this is the first time
that in the history of Marleful one hundred and plus episodes,
that someone is really talking about being specific, but being
specific in a certain way, right, Because what happens is
and you can correct you along when you go to bed,
because you're creating for that one thing, you continue to create.
(11:54):
You continue to create, You continue to create, and that helps.
Does that help you get better and better than faster
and stronger like Superman?
Speaker 1 (12:09):
In my opinion, it absolutely does. You know, And I
also think you know, the more you learn something, the
more you realize how little you know, right, Like I
think there's like a I think there's a cool graph
somewhere where it shows like how much now is someone
thinks they have And as they study something more, they
realize they know less than they think they did.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
And so.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
You know, you don't want to boil the ocean. You know,
you want to boil a small pot.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
And so.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You know, and then you can as you get bigger,
you can get a bigger pot, you know, and you
can keep on growing in that regard. But you know
that's my big thing is you know, let's let's narrow
it down, let's be great at something.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And then move the amount. Like I've listened very clear
mostly to what you said, is not just a certain
type of person or a certain type of business. Is
a certain type of business that's moving this amount of
money in revenue? Oh, how did you come up with that? Like,
(13:18):
you know, geniuses aren't born overnight, but it was tell
us about your experience? How did you come up with
this type of niche Darren Approach.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Okay, so.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Previous to this company, I founded a digital marketing agency
and I grew up from just me to about two
hundred and fifty people. Uh, and so I did fairly
well with this company. But I was a generalist agency.
And when what that meant was I had cliented in
B to B B two C e commerce, legion branding,
(14:00):
and I recognized a problem. You know, we we spent
a lot of money on innovation, but the innovation was
not very impactful because you know, if I was innovating
for one group, I wasn't innovating for another group.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
And I'll just give you an example.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
There's something in digital marketing called marketplaces, So like you
can actually advertise on Amazon, on Walmart, on Target, on Instacart.
And had a bunch of e commerce companies that wanted
to advertise on those sites. And that was about twenty
percent of my clients. And it took me about six
months worth of development time to build the integrations with
(14:41):
all of those different platforms in my technology.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
So for six months.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
After I went live, only twenty percent of my customers
benefited from that because the eighty percent of the the
other customers could care less about being on Amazon, you know,
like they're a B to B company, they don't need
to sell on Amazon, and so and then I would
do six months of time building out my B to
B connections. And so one of the things you really
(15:12):
want to think about is like how impactful is your
creativity and your innovation And if you are having a
really homogeneous group where you build something and it is only.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
For that group, everyone benefits.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
And so, uh, that's one of the huge benefits of
nicheing down is the impact will be greater and greater
for you know everyone.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
In and I'm glad that you vlable and shared that
story because on the surface, someone would say, oh, you
had two hundred and fifty employees, you were able to
understand the market. Generally, building a digital marketing agency is
not that easy at all. But if you were honest
(16:01):
with yourself and you said I'm underserving because I'm not
niche down, how how was that that world view and
that and that transition for you. Did you have to
fight with yourself and wrestle with yourself to say, I'll
have to be niche there? Because the problem with niche
(16:22):
and down and not the problem h caabiat with niche
and down. You may have customers that you have to
turn away. And when when someone is with business, it's
hard to run to write some customers.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, well, here's what I'll tell you is, you know,
the number one reason people don't niche down is fear, right,
fear that you're going to be turning someone away. You know,
I'm five years into this new company. I only work
with service based company. It's very clear on my website.
(17:02):
My phone rings all the time, but they're only service
based companies, you know. So it's that fear that you
know your phone's not going to ring, but your phone
actually ends up ringing more because you you have such
better focus on your sales and marketing, and that you
have a better value popposition, and then your win rate
(17:23):
is higher.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
You know, when I'm in a you know.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
If I'm certain that I'm talking to a marketing agency
and they got troubles with their finances and they need help,
or they they were growing fast and all of a
sudden they plat toaed and they don't know how to
grow anymore. And I'm in a pitch and I get
to tell them I owned a marketing agency.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I grew up from zero to almost forty million.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
I currently only work with service based companies, and ninety
five percent of them are either marketing agencies or tech
service firms. My credibility is so high that they're like,
you know what, You're the guy I want to work with.
You know where someone calls me up and they're in
manufacturing and I know nothing about inventory. I don't know
(18:05):
how much inventory someone should hold. You know, I'm sure
I can learn it. I have no experience in manufacturing.
You know, I just don't have the right to win
in that space, right now and so by nicheing down,
you can get the right to win your book.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
The right to wing.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Niche down, Let's give you the look. Oh, so now
you're you're going on podcasting, you're spreading this message. Why
why are you doing this? Like you can be selfish,
but you're being artruistic and you're showing people that even
though you only serve a certain population, but the knowledge
(18:53):
that you're sharing can be fruitful in any industry.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Yeah. You know, look, I really just enjoy helping people.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
You know, when I when I sold Rise, my last
my digital agency, and I thought about what to do next.
I had a had a business coach, and uh, every
three months we would do my quarterly planning together and
every three months he's like, you know, the insights you
have like nothing I've ever seen. You could create a
(19:29):
company just helping people with those insights. And I thought
that would be fun to do. You know, I thought
if I could help other companies, uh grow and be
as successful as my last company or more successful like that,
that's an amazing feeling. And so I like coming onto
podcasts and sharing you know, guidance where if I can
(19:51):
help people improve their decision making and help them grow
an amazing business.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You know, I feel really good about that. I feel
like I'm doing my part with company.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
You you built the company from zero to forty plus.
How is that detachment? Talk to me about the mindset
the process when you was really releasing your baby, because
it's almost like sending you a kid to college or something. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, Look, I decided in October of twenty nineteen I
was going to sell, and then in April first of
twenty twenty is when I stepped down and I was.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
No longer CEO and involved in the company.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
The amount of anxiety I had between October and April
was through the roof.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
It was a very stressful, unpleasant time, and I worried
about so many things. And then when I left, all
I really cared about was that the buyer got a
good deal.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
You know, I really liked the pe people who bought
the company.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
They're good people, and you know, I just wanted them
to do well. They impacted my life in a major
way for the sale, and so I wanted to make
sure that they got their money's worth and that it turned.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Out to be a good investment.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I'm cheering for them, I'm their biggest cheerleader, you know,
But I honestly I love what I do today. And
as you said, it's like someone gone to college. Is
a little bit different because you're going to have a
lifelong relationship. I don't have a lifelong relationship with my
old company, but I do have a lifelong relationship with
(21:38):
my leadership team.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Just this last weekend, I have texted every single member
of my leadership team except for one person in the
last two days. And I taught to that person a
week ago, you know, So like we're still very very
close to all of us.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Why so for somebody who maybe like when you know
is a good time to you said you made the
decision in October. Ye, did you feel as if you
took the company as far as you can go? Or
you just felt like that now is the time because
most people would hold on too long and ain and it.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Was they were.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, there were three reasons I sold. Reason number one
was all of my wealth was tied up into that
one asset, and I now had a wife, I had daughters,
have three daughters, and I really just wanted to diversify.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
So that was one reason. Reason number two.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Was I start generally around July of planning out the
next year, and I had a great plan for twenty twenty.
The only problem was it was the exact same plan
as twenty nineteen, and I was a little bit bored,
you know, like you know, we talk about you know,
(23:09):
creativity and innovation, and I just felt like I wasn't
doing anything new and I really wanted to learn and
like have new challenges.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
So that was the reason number two.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And then there was just some personal reasons where some
you know, one of my family members really needed my
time at that moment, and I wanted.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
To be there for that person.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So those were the kind of the three main reasons.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
You know, you saw articulate. But I hope our audience
can seek everything you do as well thought out. You don't,
you don't seem like the person the type of person
that just moves from the head. I think that sometimes
people mix creativity from creativity and still being well polished
(23:51):
or well thought They think that those are the two
are the same thing. It is not. Can you explain
the difference?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
You know, Look, I think everyone is creative. You know,
they might not know it, but everyone is creative. And
it really just comes down to there are two things
that come from creativity. The first are ideas, and the
second is the risk and the willingness to.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Pursue those ideas.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
And you know, I'll give an example. I spend a
really large percentage of our revenue on innovation and technology.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So I'm nick I'm taking my ideas.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And I'm putting them to life, and I don't have
to do that, but I also believe that, you know,
it allows me to truly be different from our competition,
you know, like you you taught to be four Like
in the opening about you know, don't focus on the competitor,
(24:58):
focus on the creativity. And the only twist I would
add to that is focus on being different from your competition,
being more creative than your competition. Don't be the same
as your competition, and by spending more on innovations like
this is what I tell everybody. On January one, the
(25:21):
business year starts, and I want your business to be
better at December thirty one than it is on January one.
And the only way you're going to do that is
if you budget for it. If you are not going
to put your money where your mouth is, then your
business is going to be exactly the same. But even
(25:41):
if you make incremental improvements like a one percent improvement
every ninety days over five years, that combounds to a
really large number of improvements.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
And if none of your competition.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Is spending that briney and innovating and making themselves better,
and you just you build, if you can hear you
so that you have something different from everybody else.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I think it's mine thirty nine percent. I got so
many people on similarly to not dinection is good. There
you go, you're back, you know there was all right.
I have one more question for you, and and this
(26:28):
is thank you so much for sharing your your your
wisdom with our audience. And this was a great conversation
and I'm pretty sure people learn feel a whole lot
smarter after our commer season. Oh but when we look
at what's going on now with and I'm gonna specifically
look at the chat GPT roll out when they rolled
(26:50):
out five and how people was up in arms because
they were so used to four. And this is my
whole thing about the competition. Competition drives, is driving all
of these companies to try to roll out, roll out,
roll out, roll out, and they're not listening to the audience.
(27:11):
And even though these these tools and systems may be
a bit innovative and creative, you still got to listen
to your audience. What did they do wrong? And if
you were advising on what would you have told them
to do? Rolls in again, Ah, Man, I wanted that answer.
(27:43):
Did you hear me? No?
Speaker 1 (27:47):
But I think I got the question like, like, are
you innovating that's helping your customers and are you listening
to your customers or are you just innovating for the space?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
They didn't taking consideration because they just thought the product
was going to be better and everybody was going to
draw a line. And the customers like, well, we don't
we first of all, we don't know who was coming.
Then we don't have this right.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
So when it comes to creativity and innovation, the most
important thing that you have to think about is what
are you building next? And ideally what you're innovating on
is going to help your customers solve their pain point.
And so if you were choosing things that add no
(28:36):
value to your customers, then it becomes a hobby. You
know what I'm saying, Like, you're not building something that's
special and so it really talks about listening to your
customers and understanding, you know, what what their needs are.
And so if you go back to my comment before
(28:56):
of I know who my customers are trying to improve
their CPR score, and my innovation now is all around that. Now,
it could be that my clients don't care about increasing
their cash, their profit margin, or their revenue growth.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
But I have a feeling that you know, there's.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Not many companies that would have a problem with any
one of those three. But now I got to think
about you know what am I building and you know
will solve those you're having.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Everybody, I told you we always sit you at the
feet of the best. We sit you at the feet
of the masters, persons who have not just talk to talk,
but they walk the walk, and we have conversations to
help you even off your life. We don't act you
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