Coach Pennington on the WVSU Homecoming + High School Program Rebuilding with Carl Lee and Hollis Lewis

Carl Lee and Hollis Lewis have West Virginia State University head coach John Pennington on to talk about the 2025 season, including the pageantry and importance of a WVSU homecoming game. Then Carl, Hollis, and Producer Matt dig in on high school football as teams rebuild after coaching changes, and the effects of WVSSAC recent rule changes affecting competition across the state. Let's Talk! 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yeah, you gotta work.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
You gotta work, ry Shine. It's mine gotta show. Everybody
is my sign.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
You gotta wurk cry Shine another mind.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm trying to die to day line. Don't tell you've
gotta burk.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
Welcome to Let's Talk with Carl Lee and frequent guest
hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and

(00:43):
by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
on Let's Talk.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk and I have
my co host Hollis Lewis. Is a little building and
actually I think we have had this guest in once before,
Coach Pennicton for West Virginia State University. And what I
think you said in your ninth year at West Virginia State. Yes,

(01:15):
sir so one of the interesting things that before we
get into the whole football realm, one of the things
that is interesting to me had coached at West Virginia State,
is the craziness that comes around with homecoming. You know it,
for whatever the reason, it seems like that becomes the

(01:37):
biggest thing on campus.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
And I know that it's a struggle sometimes to.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Go through that week of homecoming and coach and get
your kids out. Tell us a little bit about homecoming,
tell us a little bit about how you are handling that,
and we'll kind of go a little bit more football
as we go through this.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah, you know, there's you can feel I can I
can feel the homecoming in the air, you know, like
it's the biggest thing of the year. You know. I mean,
maybe there's something bigger, but to me, it's definitely the biggest.
You know, if you can feel it on campus, you know,
so so it's it's a big deal. I mean, obviously,
I'm here tonight. I got another radio show later of
the week, so a little bit more you know press.

(02:20):
But I mean, I think that's why, you know, why
you play college football while you coach college football, to
have that kind of atmosphere, you know, and that's what
we talk to the players about. That's what I was
even talking to the coaches about, Like this is exactly
what you want UH to do. And then you know,
you get like a lot of my former players will
be coming back. You know, being there for nine years,
there's a lot of guys, so there's gonna be a
lot of guys coming back. And you you know, for

(02:42):
me personally, like I love being in West Virginia State,
I've been there, you know, over a decade of my life.
I've been a Yellow Jacket. So like I went to
your camp when I was a kid. That was a
first football camp I ever went to. It's where I
really fell in love with the game. So like, you know,
for me personally, it's a big deal like that, you know,
this is my home, this is my community. Like, uh,
I feel the personal pressure on myself, you know. So

(03:03):
then and then you got everybody else, you know, I
get you know, tech calls, text messages from former players
and anyone involved with West Virginia State. They know that
homecomings coming up, so there's extra stuff to do. But
like it's more press for our team, it's more press
for our school. It's it's building connections for our players,
for you know, for our football program for West Virginia State.
So it's it's an opportunity, you know, it's a it's

(03:25):
a great opportunity for us to grow the program, build connections,
and just you know, continue to build West Virginia State.

Speaker 1 (03:32):
One of the And I know, Hollist, I know you've
got a bunch of questions, but I want to I
want to follow up with what you said because like
the guys, the guys that I have coached, had coached
a lot of the guys that I coached at West
Virginia State.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
When we chit chat on the phone, it's it's interesting
to me.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
How comfortable they are saying, like, Hey, I talked to coach,
I gave him a call, or I sent him a
text message and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
And I want to I want to say that to
appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
I want to make sure that you know that those
guys truly, truly love the idea of how they're treated
from you, by you, and to them, it's like you
are their coach, you know what I'm saying, It's like
you're coaching at their school and they have this this
appreciation for how you have treated them and for that,

(04:22):
my hat's off to you.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
Man.

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Well you helped me out a lot of that this summer.
I called you looking for some advice, but I mean
it's it's you know, like I said, it means a
lot to me, you know, personally, and I know it
means a lot to the school. And I think you
know that we always tell our staff the bandwagon's always open,
you know, like that that door is never locked. You know,
we we I don't you know, I don't you know,
if they jump off because we lose a game, that's fine,

(04:44):
but like we want them on that, you know, we
want them on the bandwagon, want as many people involved
as yell with Yellowjacket Nation and uh, just building our program.
And I appreciate you saying that. It means a lot
to me. I've I've definitely put a lot more effort
into it and just trying to you know, get everybody
back involved.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
I know, to on that.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
You know, John and I we play high school football
together and I think we from coach Edwards, we come
from a tradition of carrying on tradition at GW.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
It was a really really.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Big thing to connect with former players and to acknowledge
things that happen throughout the history and make you realize
that you are part of a lineage of things. You're
not just playing in the now. So I can understand
like kind of why you think that way, just in
you know, as a broader question when we look at

(05:30):
college football and sort of the landscape changing, you know,
with transfers and nil and you know, the different methodologies
recruiting and different things of that nature. You know, homecoming
is that tradition you took your sons to the WVU
pit game to like, that's part of that tradition. You know,
what are some of the things that you tell your

(05:51):
players about, you know, being part of a lineage and
carrying on tradition.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
You know, I had a meeting with our leadership group
right before I came over here. We meet every Monday,
and and I just talked to them about you know,
we have fifty seven new players, you know, so like
and that's that's the landscape of college football. And you know,
i'd message you on Saturday, you know, just uh, I
want to make sure that that everyone in our program
understands how how big this is, how important it is.

(06:18):
And not only that I talk to them about, you know,
take some time to find a new player and just
tell them something positive about your experience at West Virginia State.
Like they may not they've only been here a couple
of weeks. You know, they don't they don't know how
important this is to to you guys and to me
and you know the guys that have been here for years.
And uh so that was something you know that that
I want to do is make sure our leaders spread

(06:39):
the word to the new guys about, you know, just
just how how special it is to play for college
football West Virginia State. We have a great program, we
have incredible support, we have you know, it's a great school,
like great tradition, like and you know, these guys have
a chance to grow not only as players, but as men.
So like you know, there there's a slogan it starts
at State and that's, uh, you know, from years back,

(07:01):
but I've always used that because I think, you know,
something really special can start here, you know, for the
players and for the coaches. And I really want them
to see that, like they're going to look back on
this and and really see how they grew as men
and how this was a big part of an influential
part of their lives and in a positive part of
their lives.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
And to that, like for me, in the ten years
I think that I was coaching, I can, regardless of
wins and losses, the young men that I got a
chance to touch, and I'll say, maybe God into doing

(07:41):
some of the right things compared to where they were
when I first got there. That impact is something that
never leaves you. And when you see those guys, guys
that you know you coached in your first year, Guys
that I had coached in my first year, Guys who
I can remember, some guys that they were getting ready

(08:02):
to put out of school that you know, I'm fighting
for them and saying I got them. Just just trust
me to let me, let me have them and they'll
be fine. One of those guys are now a teacher,
you know. And And there is nothing greater than that
kind of belief in a relationship that you can have

(08:24):
with a player from a coach. I don't know if
there's anything any greater than that.

Speaker 4 (08:30):
Well, and it's inspiring, right like you know, I don't
People get burned out not because of what they do,
but they forget why they do it. You know, and
so for me, it's like, and I told our leaders
this tonight. I was like, for me this week, like
you're not. I mean, I'm gonna do extra work. I mean,
I don't care if I sleep, I don't care if
I eat, because you know, I've had incredible support. You know,
like two guys sitting in this room that have supported me,

(08:52):
you know, since I came up in the coaching ranks
and since I've been at West Virginia State, and you know,
I've told them, think about all the people that have
supported you to get to where you're at. And so
like the community is always behind us. You know, obviously
Yellowjacket Nation is, but just the whole knav Valley. So
like for me, it's about you know, just thinking about
remember why I'm doing it, not only you know, to
win football games, but like you're having a huge impact.

(09:14):
And then those old players come back, you home coming.
You know, I'm thinking about some of the guys I'm
going to see and and you know, knowing like Okay,
I've got it. We have got to have a great plan.
We've got to be ready to play, Like I want
to make sure they're proud of, you know, the program,
and what we put out on the field. So you know,
like I said, for me personally, it means a lot.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
Now over the first So this is Game four, homecoming
playing Fairmont. But I'm gonna take a look back at
the past couple of weeks. So we played three games
so far, we're two and one. First game we took
a lost to Carson Newman at Carson Newman, bounced back
at Barton home win, had two pick six to close
the game, and then we had our first offensive explosion

(09:54):
playing Wesley at Wesley. So over those past three games,
kind of what are you seeing that you'll like? I offensively, defensively,
what are you seeing that we need to improve on
moving into this game?

Speaker 4 (10:04):
So Number one, I love the way we play like that.
I mean, they play hard, they're physical, they're athletic, they
play together as a team, you know, like our defense
has been incredible in the red zone, which they so
they don't. It tells you they don't. They play every
play like it's the life of its own. So like
they've been but they haven't broken. I think the biggest thing,
you know is like we had a bye week and

(10:25):
then you know, then we had West Virginia Westley and
then we knew wasn't you know, they're not one of
the better teams in the conference. You can watch it
on film and you know, so the biggest thing for
us was to make sure we made the improvements that
we you know, messed up the first two weeks in
non conference play. And offensively, we didn't throw the ball well,
we didn't have explosives. Last Saturday we made you know,
we made those big plays. We hit the ball down

(10:46):
the field, we threw the ball over three hundred yards.
And defensively, we had a lot of busts in the
first two games, just missed assignments. I don't know if
we had maybe one or two missed assignments on Saturday
against Wesleyan. So I think, you know, I love the
run game with the offense, like the old line is.
You know, we got a lot of starters back, so
they're they're dominant up front, and I love, you know,

(11:07):
the aggressiveness of our defense, like and and the biggest
thing is that they're great in the red zone and
we've been good on third down. We've been good in
the red zone. So winning the stats that matter, and
I think we're just kind of tough team, like I
don't you know, we can throw it, we can run it,
we can stop the run. We can you know, we
can get after you blitzing like you know, we're not
we're not dominating any statistic, but we're winning the stats

(11:29):
that matter, and we're making the improvements from the mistakes.
You know that we made the first two weeks, and
that's that's you know, by week you know, you can
get a little lack of days of cool. It's right,
you know, so we I thought our coaching staff did
a great job of giving them some rest but also
applying pressure to get better. And I think our whole
team knew that we had to get better.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Now, well, you have fifty seven new players in a game.
This is not unique to West Virginia State. Coaches are
dealing with this all over the country. I think there's
one stat where WU had like seventy plus new guys. So,
from that standpoint, although these guys do have some collegiate
experience sort of offensively, defensively special teams, what are the
points that are kind of easy to coach up and

(12:10):
what are some of the points that are more difficult
to coach up? To get that sort of continuity between
the players because before you answer, before you answer that,
I'm going to add to that little bit, like to
his point, not just specific position, but all of a sudden,
you run this offense and you run this defense compared

(12:31):
to somebody coming in and now all of a sudden
you've got to find a position for them or teach
them something totally different. How is all those things with
what he's already talked about?

Speaker 2 (12:41):
How does that happen?

Speaker 4 (12:43):
Well, the language is the hardest thing, really. I mean,
you know there's cover three is cover three, but you
know some people call it six when you roll weak
and three buzz when it's strong. I mean, there's just
riples for different it means right man coverage. Yeah, okay,
it's like match coverage. So like there's just different aims.
But it really is a lot a lot of it's
very similar. So I think that that's the first thing

(13:04):
is making sure they understand like this is what we
call this formation, this is what we call you know, uh,
this coverage, this route concept. And then on top of that,
you know the techniques, you know, because there's there's different
ways to play, you know, different ways to block inside zone.
There's different ways to to run you know, certain stunts.
So not only you have to teach them the language,
now you've got to teach them the techniques that go

(13:25):
with the way that we do it, you know, West
Virginia State. So that does take some time. I think
the biggest thing, the hardest thing is uh just the
the you know, the standards in your culture. Like you know,
we have no one you have to run off the
football field at West Virginia State, you know, since I've
been coaching there, like you do not walk on the field.
So like little things like that, you know, making sure

(13:45):
their toes behind the line. You know, maybe some other
the coaches they had in the past and harp on
some of those details. There's you know, that's maybe the
harder thing to teach is that they have some habits
that uh, not necessarily their fault. They're just not used
to like what my pet peeve are. You know what
the guys that have been in the program understand this
is what coach pen expects, is what Coach Jackson expects,

(14:06):
So that those things are a little harder to teach
as well because it's just not as common for them.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
We It's funny that you use one that my in
youth football, running back to the huddle, running off on
and off the field.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Like to me, I think that that's that's so important,
even though it's not necessarily part of the game, but
it's been instilled in you forever.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Ye Can you remember?

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Can you go back and try to figure out like
where you were and when that first? When what grade
you were in or what level you were playing at
that somebody said that to you and you were like, Oh,
if I ever coach, we're gonna do this.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I can't. I can't.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
I just know, you know, there's some things that you
just pick up, you know that you just do that
your coaches did to you. Yeah. Uh, and that's definitely
one of them. I still run on and off the field.
I don't well, you know, I feel weird if I'm
walking on the field. So no, I can't remember it,
but it is I think when those little details five
minutes early for the meeting, hats off for the meeting, Like, uh,
I know I was reading about like Michael Strahan and

(15:13):
Tom Coughlin had they butted heads a lot about that
five minute early to the meeting thing, and uh, you know,
it helps, like when you have like a rule that
maybe some guys don't agree with, because then the leaders
come in and they're like, well, we do that because
details matter, right, Or you're like, why do we have
to run on off there? What does that have to do?
And it's like, well, because details matter, you know, or
effort matters, like we do things harder, you know, we

(15:34):
do things harder than anyone else here, or you know,
like so it reinforces your culture by you know how
the like the leaders talk about why you do some
of those little things that maybe a new guy doesn't understand.

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Seeing I'm a hat guy and I and I as
soon as I got there, I knew this was going
to impact me.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
No hats on into building.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, whether it's the cafeteria, no matter where you are.
If I see you with a hat on in a building,
run it. And and the kids. I don't know if
they really I shouldn't say kids, young men. I don't
know if they really understood exactly why that was something
that was super important. But I bet you they still

(16:14):
remember that and probably go by it.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Oh yeah, coach Lee time.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
Now Now, like I said, in this world, I actually
kind of about players that you gained. We've also lost
some players. Joel Fillers, who I actually talked to today,
believe it or not, Donnie, he was, you know, a
legendary quarterback at Westervinginia State University and we have actually
I've washed him play Barton and I've seen the stat
as far as Wesley and our quarterback now he's that.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
He looks pretty good. You know, he can run the ball.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
He got some he got some pop to that ball
as far as velocity coming off his hand. So talk
a little bit about him and how he's developing within
the program.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Well, I mean he you know, he was elected a captain.
Caleb Jackson. Yeah, Caleb's Uh, he's a captain. He's got
great energy. You know, at every practice he's locked in him.
He's got all the quarterback things that you want. It
takes notes in every meeting. He's always where he wants,
you know, where you need him to be an incredible athlete,
you know that knows how to play the quarterback position.
I think when you get those two things combined, uh,

(17:12):
you know, they can make a coordinator look good sometimes
and you know it's third and twelve and your concept
is terrible and he just scrambles for thirteen yards. But uh,
you know, he adds an element in the run game
that you have to you know, you have to be
aware of him. You know, he's he's he had some
good runs. He's had some good runs in every game. Uh,
and he's I've never seen anyone with zip on the ball.
It come I mean it comes off.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
And it's very catchable too, for what I noticed. It
comes off, but it's not like overtly hard and difficult
to catch it.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
The ball speeds up on its way to you. Like,
I mean, I catch a lot of quarterback passes, and
you know I've caught a lot in my day, but
my thumbs and and index fingers are in a lot
of pain this year from him. I mean, he throw,
he can spin it. You know. The biggest thing for
Caleby he's just got to work on, you know, being
able to drop drop back pass. That's the biggest thing,
you know that we've emphasized with him, Like we can
get him out of the pocket and he does great

(18:01):
things and he's you know, quick game. He can throw
the ball wherever he needs to, just you know, seeing
the field. He's not a not a tall guy, so
just seeing the field and having vision in the dropback
game because he's hadn't been a starter at the college level,
so that was a big thing we wanted to see
out of him against Westland, and he was you know,
he was on fire on Saturday. Yea.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
And I think sometimes if you don't have that experience,
you know, your eyes can shift down, it can shift up,
be all over the place, and it can cause you
to lose sight of the field. Now I want to
ask you about because you know you played under rich Rock,
so he's back. I mentioned earlier you went to the
pit game with your son, so kind of what do
you think. I know you probably haven't got a chance
to watch a whole bunch, but it kind of what's

(18:40):
your sentiments?

Speaker 2 (18:41):
What are you thinking about that?

Speaker 4 (18:42):
I mean, watching that game, I thought Pitt was the
much better team, just personnel wise. Like I just you know,
it's what I do as a coach. I'm looking out
there and I know we had a lead, and I'm thinking, man,
I want this game to go well. Is my son's
really first game, either of them, you know, first real
WVU game, and I'm just hoping it goes well. And
you can see on the field, even with the lead,

(19:02):
like man, Pitt's better than us, Like the personnel, we
just don't have great players compared to maybe the upper
echelon or the conference and in that level. So just
watching them grind out a win, you know, an ugly
Rich rod Win, I loved it. I mean, I ate
it up. I mean you could just see, uh, you know,
I knew they were probably not gonna win against Kansas
on the road after that, but we just not. They

(19:24):
don't have great players right now.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
And I thought the emotion, like like I said, when
you lose to Ohio, then you get all the way
up for Pitt and then you got to go to
Kansas sort of a flat line. Nobody's really excited. There's
no history, no tradition there. So like in a week
like this where you know, sort of the outwardly emotions
are high from everybody else, how do you manage those
emotions just kind of within your locker room?

Speaker 4 (19:48):
Man, that's a that's a tough that's a tough one.
You're you're always I'm always trying to get a temperature
of the locker room, you know, not you know, not
the actual temperature, but like are they too high? Are
they too low, and my job is to figure out,
you know, what that temperature is and bring it down,
you know, if I have to, or raise it up
if I have to. And you know, last week we
played Wesley and so off of bye week, and like

(20:09):
I said, they were you know, you could watch the
film and you could easily look at it and be like,
we're gonna kill these guys. And if we went up
there with that mentality, we probably wouldn't have played very well.
And so so you know, I built a chip on
their shoulder and you know, kind of turned the temperature up,
got under their skin and made sure that they you know,
I got them, I got them hot, you know. So

(20:29):
I think this week I don't have to do that.
It's homecoming, like it'll be the opposite, Like I'm gonna
have to turn the ac on a lot. And so
I talked to our staff about that all week last
week with Wesley and how we're gonna have to fire
them up, and we had some fights in practice. I
mean it was, you know, we got them going, and
then we brought them back down right before the end
of the week. And then this week it'll be you know,
probably the opposite I'm gonna have to calm them down

(20:49):
constantly at no raw ross beaches before that game. You know,
it might come out a little bit just because I'm
gonna be passionate about the game, but you know, it's
it's gonna be more about keeping them calm, you know,
on Saturday. So I think as a head coach, you
just you got to know the temperature of the room
and then you got to be the thermostat and bring
it down to get it to a nice seventy two or.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Wherever you need it to be.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
But isn't it But doesn't the whole doesn't the whole
campus get a temperature that that whole campus that temperature
rises up and there's like this absolute expectation of winning. Yeah,
like there you can win one game and it and
and as long as it's homecoming, you got a shot.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
Well, we can appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
All the whole all the alumni who come back, this
game matters. They're not checking on what the record was,
they're not looking who's on the schedule.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
That's a lot of pressure on just one game.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
Yeah, but that's what you want, you know, That's why
that's why you play college football. It's the it's the
you know, I wouldn't want to be at a school
that that didn't care if we want a lot or lost,
you know, like, hey, just make sure you have enough
people on the roster. I wouldn't be there. I want to.
I want. I mean, I put enough pressure on myself
that's going to be more than than any you know,
anyone could put me. But I think that, uh, you know,
that's I think that's what you're looking for. And I

(22:03):
know our players are looking for that, you know, So
so we're we're welcoming it. I think it's an opportunity.
But you know, and what you said about me taking
my sons, it wasn't homecoming at WVU, But for me,
it was the only chance. And you know, my kids
are my boys are thirteen and and eight or ten,
so like they haven't been to a wv game. So
it was like my one chance. And that's it's probably

(22:26):
gonna be. Somebody is probably taking their kids to that
game that played at West Virginia State and it might
be their one shot to get their kid to like
really appreciate West Virginia State football. So like hopefully, you know,
we we play a good game so they can have
that because I had an incredible experience, like one of
the best days of my life. You know, my kids
get to see the backyard brawl and we grind out
an overtime victory. I mean, you can't.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Anything that's a movie stuff, right, So.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
Hopefully we you know, someone that comes to this game,
brings their kids and wants to show them what what
their dad, you know, how proud he is of being
in West Virginia State yellow jacket and how important it is.
And then the kid love you know, we win and
the kid loves it and it's a big homecoming win.
So somebody's you know, going to have that hopefully that
same experience or you know, it's my job to provide it.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah cause I know, like you know, homecoming last year,
you hung out a little bit to tell Gates you'll
come through, Coach Pennington will come through after the game.
And I think those sort of things are so important,
you know, for the community and the people who are
you know, the supporters of West Virginia State University to
kind of see you in that element as well as

(23:30):
you know, coaching the game. Man. So anything else you
got going on, anything else you want to tell us,
anything else you got just you want to let people
know about.

Speaker 4 (23:37):
I mean, right now, all I can think about is
one thirty on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
There you go.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
You know, I got my kids got some games this week,
you know, middle school football and soccer and stuff like that.
But it's right now, I'm just locked in on you know.
You know, like like you said, there's a lot of pressure.
There's a lot of people that want to see us
through well. And I want to make sure that you know,
we've got every single nook and cranny covered and I
you know, dotted T's cross like, I want to make

(24:03):
sure that you know, West Virginia State is proud of
what we put out there.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Okay, so when tell us when the time?

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Win?

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Is the game? Everything like that, it's.

Speaker 4 (24:10):
One thirty Saturday kickoff you know at obviously at Lake
and Field. Uh, West Virginia State, you know, get there early.
You know it's gonna be you know, getting if you're
an alumni, like, uh, you know, don't tailgate too long.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
You know, he starts early. Guys, I'd love to.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
See you there for kickoff, like it means a lot
to our players. I mean, the tailgate didn't going anywhere.
I always go after. You know, it's one of my
favorite things to do is walk the tailgate after a
homecoming win. It's I love doing it. And so, uh,
the tailgate will still be there, I promise I'm always
there after. So uh, come in cheer us on, like
let's get a home field advantage, like this is a
big game. Fairmont's really good. Both of us are trying

(24:46):
to climb our way to the top of the conference.
Like we're gonna need all the fans support, So just
get in there, like, cheer on the guys. I mean,
our players are gonna play hard, you know, for for
all the West Virginia State alumni.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Well, you know, I'm hoping. I'm hoping also to try
to try to make it. Youth sports is killing me,
but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to make it. A coach,
we wish you luck and we're gonna take a quick
break and we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (25:10):
Thanks coach, Appreciate you guys.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
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Now back to the conversation.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, Hollis before we go any further,
you know, and I say, I forgot that coach had.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Been on once before. Yeah, what I have.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
One of the things that I truly, truly, truly, truly
truly love about him is like he's so matter of
fact about what he's doing, how he's doing it, what
everybody else is supposed to be doing. And I and
I and I just I think that that quote organization,
that standard.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
I think I think he he presents that to everybody.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
And I just don't know how players and coaches other
coaches can't get it. Yeah, he's a penniton is a
is a systems guy. So uh, he sets up things
in a manner in which, you know, it sort of
works as like almost like a machinery almost like the
assembling line where it can sort of work on its own.

(27:43):
And he's very like I said, very organized. He's heavy
into leadership, motivational sort of not not just cliche emotional
motivational speeches, but motivation in a way that's driven to
get the best out of you. So I think he
does to his coaches and his players, and he just
has a vision for where he wants to see the program.

(28:05):
You know, off air, we were talking about, you know,
what would it take to win the conference, get into
the national picture. So I think his vision of the
program is there and had a program like stay like
you mentioned earlier, where we came from to where we're
at now. It's going to be a process. Nothing's easy, right,
So I think we're gearing up to see us turn
the corner here in the next couple of years. What

(28:29):
is interesting to me about him is there is no
he never has ever ever come across to me like
I don't know, like that quote confident coach, But.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
He's so sure of.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
His process, if that makes sense, you know, like he's
not saying.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
We're this, we're that.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
The way he describes the process, it's like he knows
what the process is. He got it from somewhere and
he's applying it and it's working. Because man, I mean
when you look at it, when you look at State
today compared to where it was back in the day
when I was there, it's it's a thousand foot difference.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Man like.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
I mean, it's it's a total different situation there, especially
with the football.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
It's support, the fan base, all of that.

Speaker 1 (29:25):
Man, I think that they have they I mean he
I'll say he has grown that program into it being
a lovable program for the community and for anybody who
ever went to school there.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
And I think we talked about it earlier, you know,
far as the face of college just changed. And you know,
these athletic programs are essential to your university, Like you
need athleticism or your university not only to fill your
your campus, you know generally, but to also feel those spots,
those dormitories on campus. And you know, and football is
a major key player in that system. As far as

(30:01):
coach Pennington, you know, he has a you know, a
very positive attitude. And this is not cocky, it's not arrogant,
but it does not come across it. I'll phrase it's
like unrelenting positivity. So it's not it's one of those
situations when you know, if negative things or bad things happens,
he deal with them acknowledging. But it's back to being,

(30:21):
you know, having that attitude like we have to move forward,
we have to you know, build this thing up, all right?
With all that, Ben said, one of the one of
I know this is not really a topic that you
might really want to deal with, but high school football
and specifically like teams like South Charleston.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Who have who have been down for a while, what
is it? Do you know? Could you could you.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Give a game plan like how do you get yourself
back into the winning category? Like how do you get
how do you how do you get the kids to
be positive? Is coach Pennington's way the ideal kind of
way of turning a program around?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Like that? Man?

Speaker 1 (31:13):
I think it's it's one of those situations. Now if
you look at programs like you know, South Charleston or
Saint Albans here locally, it's just it takes time. You're
really time is your friend, because you're gonna have to
take time to build those programs because with the fluidity
of how kids.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Moving from school to school.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
You can't even necessarily look at your middle school programs
and say, hey, I have X amount of kids. You
can't really count on that. Hopefully they come, but you
can't count on that. So it's gonna take time. And
I think what I've always said is that, you know,
if I'm coaching at South Charleston or Saint Albans or
any other school that's you know, struggling. If I'm a

(31:54):
high school coach, I have to make my presence on
those middle schools, on that Little League program. It's almost
like now it has to be sort of a community effort.
I think the days of a high school coach kind
of just sitting at the high school, you know, anticipating
and waiting for kids to come. You know, those days
are kind of over. And I'm not saying that you

(32:16):
should be quote unquote recruiting, but you have to make
your presence known early on so the kids can get excited.
You can share your vision, you can get to know
those kids, get to know those families escally when they come,
so when it's their time to come, they actually come
to the school and willing to play. I was going
to say, because a lot of times, is that that

(32:40):
impact could be the parent. Yeah, the mom and the
dad not wanting to put their kid in that in
that situation. They're not winning, they're not very good. We
don't want to go there, we don't want to play there.
We want to go play somewhere. That's that's winning. I'm
I think that is the wrong conversation. I think the

(33:04):
lessons that you can learn and and the effort that
you can put in at a at a team. If
I was gonna be going to South Charleston High School
from from middle school one, my parents are gonna make
me go regardless. They don't care about what football is
doing or any of that. So if I go, if

(33:24):
I go with the idea of thinking like, oh, we're
not gonna win anything, well, what effort am I going
to put in?

Speaker 2 (33:32):
I mean that's actually true.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, what I mean, like, what am I really gonna
What am I gonna do to to have an impact?

Speaker 2 (33:38):
If I'm coming in there saying Okay, well I know this.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
I'm gonna try to start as a as a as
a freshman and go out there and I'm gonna play,
that's a whole nother that's a whole other thing. And
I think if, if, if parents can maybe look at
the focus of playing and playing hard and pay playing
the best.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
Winning is not.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
A guarantee to make you gonna get start in high
school or go to college or go to the pros.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
That winning is not gonna guarantee that it's you.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
But I also think nobody wants to walk into a
situation in which they know they may not be able
to win for the next four years. And that's just
the reality. Parents don't want to sit through that, and
players don't want to play through that. You want at
least the opportunity that you'll be able to win out
some games, maybe make the playoffs. I think now you
know coaching programs who are struggling. Now you have to

(34:35):
find something to sell, right. So if I'm in a situation,
I may not be able to sell you necessarily winning
because we haven't done that right, But I could sell
you were guys are getting stronger, guys are getting more athletic.
Our team has, you know, a three point whatever overall GPA.
So I have to similar to coach Pennington, I have

(34:57):
to find the positive. If I'm the coach and I
have to sell that like these are the steps to
we're making because to your point, you could be doing
a lot of good things and maybe it doesn't reflect
in the win and lost column yet. But if I
can get the right group of guys and we can
continue to improve daily, then you know, once your kid

(35:17):
comes up here, then we can start getting on the
winning track.

Speaker 5 (35:20):
You know.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
I like in this situation too, like Dabo Sweeney, you know,
he made some comments in the last few weeks and
he's a little bit stuck in the past as far
as what he did, because they're losing now. They're struggling now,
and you know, you being a coach and these times
you have to be able to adjust. So and again
that adjustment may be, you know, it may be some
struggle in that adjustment, but you gotta find something to

(35:43):
sell in the meantime. That's just the reality. I wouldn't
want to take my kid to a situation in which,
again there's no improvement and it looks bleak in the future.

Speaker 7 (35:52):
I think even some of the programs that are successful
right now are struggling to get kids in.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, because you were.

Speaker 7 (35:58):
Talking about this before we are recording, Hollis, you were
talking about how the popularity of soccer has gotten bigger.
I think football as a sport in general is just
struggling because of the injuries, because of all these travel leagues.
With other sports. I think there's just things that are
maybe cheaper, that are more fun than a year round
that kids are just being drawn to, and it's just

(36:19):
harder to find football players.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
I mean, And that's a great point because I mean
you think of a program like you know, twenty thirty
years ago, like a Capitol High program. Man, they would
have a full varsity, a travel varsity, a JV. And
if they had ninth grade at the time, they would
have a ninth grade team. So even like a school
like South Charleston or Saint Aubmus, it may just be
an issue of just numbers, like if I had more

(36:43):
to work with, then I would have more to work with.
And to your point, soccer and injury and the threat
of injury, it's kind of hurt the game overall you
because and again to copy both of you. The hardest
thing to me when I look at football and I
try to figure out, like what's happening with it, I see.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
I see soccer, I see baseball, I see.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Travel sports and anything that falls in the window of football.
Football is going to lose unless you have unless you
have parents, a dad, a mom, a kid who is
sold on football. Chances of a kid saying, well, you know,

(37:31):
i'd rather play travel baseball. I'd rather play travel basketball.
I don't. Well, Okay, the parent. The parent's going to
ultimately be the one who's going to make that decision.
I get it that you say, and it's not the kid,
but the kid's probably not thinking about playing. He may
not want to play. I mean I didn't have to

(37:52):
my dad. I don't think my dad had ever said,
are you are you going to play football?

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (37:58):
But I wanted to play. Yeah, but you grew up
watching football, watching you know what I'm saying. It was
part of sort of just the relationship that you guys have.
I think I think now we just got to make
it more accessible, if that makes sense. Like I think
we need to start flag football programs earlier. I think
we need to. You know, we have to make the game.

(38:19):
I'm not saying more friendly. That's not the right word
I'm looking for. I'm struggling to find my words. But
we have to make the game more accessible. We have
to and at the little league level. We cannot make
this as it been because I know again even for me,
my girls were done with cheerleading, like because I don't
want to be in that environment because it's just a bad,
toxic vinerment. It's always drama. And I'm sure there's drama

(38:41):
andary sports, but it just seems to be like that,
just drama in that far as in our little league programs.
And it's not just here locally, it's all over the country.
We see people parents getting in fights and fighting the
reps at little league games and stuff like that. So
I think we have to sort of quell that and
you know, and just make it where it just doesn't

(39:02):
turn people off as much well, and and and and
kind of to that point, you know. And I'll say this,
if you're if you're if you're at a game, a
youth game, and you're yelling out profanity and all of
that kind of stuff and threatening to to pull your

(39:22):
kid off the field and all of that kind of stuff,
the question you should ask yourself is this, Okay, how
does my son feel? What are the coaches thinking, what
are the people sitting beside me thinking? And who am
I actually? Who am I being?

Speaker 4 (39:42):
Like?

Speaker 2 (39:42):
What am I being?

Speaker 1 (39:43):
You're out there in emotions anything about none of that,
and you know what another thing to to that point
sort of the other side of that, I think when
it comes to specifically football at the youth level and
at the middle school level, I think we've forgotten about development.
I do't, you know, because it becomes about winning in

(40:05):
those sports too early. I think, because you play so
many games in basketball, football, soccer, winning and loses is whatever.
You know, they want to win obviously, but if you don't.
But I think with those sports the way they're constructed,
you know, if you look at sport like baseball, you
go from.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
T ball to coach pitch to kid pitch.

Speaker 1 (40:26):
And you kind of move up through the ranks, so
that way you have development periods within that, where football
it's like, okay, we're just gonna throw you out here.
So maybe, to even answer my own question I asked earlier,
maybe we start with flag. Maybe we have just different
levels that we can start to. That way we can
focus on development and get the parents in the mind
frame that this far as from your kid playing from

(40:49):
five to twelve or five to whatever, five to ten
or five to two or whatever it is, This ain't
about winning the losses. We are developing this kid. So
by the time they getting eighth grade, they understand the
dynamics how to play football. They know how to tackle properly,
know how to run the ball, they know how to
pass the ball, They understand the game. So by the
time they get in high school, all that fundamental work

(41:11):
is secured done and now we can just start working
on systems. So I think the mentality of how we are,
you know, constructing these football leagues at those tender ages
need to change.

Speaker 7 (41:25):
I'll tell you one other thing that I see because
I'm on for the second year in the road we're
broadcasting Herbert Hoover football and in this area can on
Putnam County specifically. One of the things I've noticed there's
not as much loyalty to the community to the school
that there used to be, especially like here in Charleston.
You might live in South Charleston, but your parents send

(41:46):
you to GW or I want to go play for
Coach Carpet Capital or whatever it may be. Same thing Winfield,
Hurricane and Putnam County. Some of the schools have a
better community base than others. Other schools are much more
prone to having that transfers to go on.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
And good point.

Speaker 7 (42:02):
So it's gonna be easier for some of those teams
to kind of amass a good talented team, where the
rest of them are just gonna be who's left, who's
there who maybe can't go to the transfer school like
the rest of the kids.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
A good point.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, And that was my point earlier about coaches ingratiating
themselves within the community. You can't just be at the
high school no more just now sitting on the throne.
You gotta be all through that thing. And I think
and I think the transition from coaches at South Charleston
I think created that absence of someone who could say, hey,

(42:38):
I'm here, we're gonna do it this way, bring your
kids here. I think that absence that that that change.
I think those kids as soon as as soon as
the coach left, as soon as the coach left, I
think automatically they started looking around and and and if
you're a good player, somebody's gonna call you.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
And I think with Donnie Mays his history of South Auston,
so I think he he'll bring that back. So I
think that that But again, it's just gonna be time.
I think even with coach stottson sat Off, it's just
gonna take time to build because and I think now communities, administrations,
other you know, parents, they gotta be willing to say,

(43:17):
hey man, it's gonna take a little time to do this.
Just changing the coach ain't gonna help necessarily. And I
don't think changing your kid, taking your kids somewhere else,
I don't think that that's I mean, well, let me
ask this question, hollis, if if I've got a talented kid,
he's fourteen playing football really pretty good, team's not very good,

(43:45):
why are you moving it? I think it depends, man.
Like I said, I'm not gonna fall the parent for
that because I think it depends on position. I think
it depends on schematically what they're able to do with
the players that you got. So it really depends on
a on a lot because if you know, if you
have you know, if I don't what I'm saying, I

(44:08):
don't want to pen like, if you have a linebacker
who's who's really talented, that's gonna be a spot moving
forward college all at if he doesn't have a good,
you know, defensive line and they're just getting through that
that's going to affect him. Or if you have a quarterback,
you don't have a good offensive line, or you just
don't have enough, you know that that can affect you.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
So I'm not necessary.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
I understand your point as far as just hanging out
and sort of dealing with it, but it can affect
you depending on the position that you're playing, if you
hope to play at the next level.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
It just it is what it is. See And I don't,
I really don't. I don't. I don't. I don't buy
that only.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Because I think by the time a college scout is
going to be looking at you there, if they think
you have something, they're gonna work you out. And if
your numbers, if you hit the metrics for them.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
You got an opportunity.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
Yeah, but I don't have any If your tape look raggedy,
well that's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
But the tape is not the team. The tape is you.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
But what I'm saying is that you know, if you
if you got a safety you play corner, you got
a safety who never follow his darn assignments, who never
who never follows assignments, then that can put you in
a mind no, no, you know what I mean if
a scout, a scout is not gonna he's he's gonna
understand whether it's cover three, cover four, he's gonna he's

(45:33):
gonna understand that that's seeing. I think to that point
that you made, I think that's where a lot of
parents are and and and they're thinking that that scout
knows what the what?

Speaker 4 (45:48):
What?

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Who the quarterback threw where he threw the ball to,
how he threw it, God drops it? That ain't Was
it on target? Did he get it off on time?
That's the scout looking at the quarterback. He don't care
that to drop he gets a sack, Okay, that's fine.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
What did he do? Did he did he see it?

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Did he move?

Speaker 2 (46:07):
You know he's gonna.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I mean, and I think we and and and I'm
making the point only only for the fact that if
your kid has talent, there is going to be a college.
If your kid is in high school, there is going
to be a college that can see that. Yeah, but
if you are playing at a team that's not equipped

(46:31):
to maximize your talent, that can ultimately in some way
hurt your recruitment. I'm gonna make the case that I
maximized my my my place. I understand what you're saying,
but it depends on position too. Some some some positions
are cod dependent. It's not necessarily a corner, like particularly
if I'm just paying playing man and that's all I got.

(46:52):
I'm just locking people up. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I need, I need.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
But and that's my point. So imagine you playing a corner,
hold them. But imas you playing corner, you're playing man.
For the majority of the game. Your your your defensive line,
your linebackers ain't getting no pressure that quarterback got all day.
You're gonna get some passes thrown on you. You something's going,
We're gonna make some plays on you. But yet absolutely,
but what they're gonna what they're gonna look at. They're

(47:17):
gonna look at my steps, my my, my position, all.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Of those kind that's what they do.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
They're just not they're just looking at a stat line. No,
because they know they don't. They don't just look at
a stack and hope they come. If they here's the thing.
If they're coming, okay, if they're coming to a school,
because there was zero reason for Scott to come to Marshall,
we wouldn't win it. There was zero, there was zero
reason to come. But that's your your d one player

(47:44):
at that point. That's that's a little different in high school,
not not in my time, not in my time. Here's
what I'm saying though, in in in this high and
this is my point. I'm glad you said that because
in this time, no, in this day and age, when
coach pennyten at West Virginia State University is taking fifty
seven transfirst, you notice he didn't say I got fifty

(48:08):
seven kids out of high school. WVU had almost eighty Transfirst,
there are not taking kids in high school no more.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I get that. You are not. Even if you three star,
two stars, those type of you got the darn there
be the five, five star.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
So what I'm saying is like, if my kids on
that bubble three stars gas some talent, gasymmetrics, but still
need some development. And if you're at a high school
where you are playing out losing that development could be
lost because you're just trying to pull it together. So
I'm saying, overall, depending on how your kid is situated,
it may be best for him to him or her

(48:46):
depend on the sport to go somewhere else where they
can seek that development to try to get that offer
coming out, because again the kids now, man, and to
your point, any offer is good now as long as
you got one good So it ain't about D one,
D two no more. Just find So we're to go
ball out and then you can go up later. But
in order to get that offer, to get those eyes,

(49:08):
you may be going to be in a program that's
gonna be conduced, conducive to your skill set. I'm not
sure I'm gonna So I could have gone to I
could have maybe transferred to Furman, any of those kind
of schools.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
High school. It's a different to high school.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Okay, So if if we're in high school, I'm going
to make the case that it was obvious to me
that nobody was interested in me at I had. I
had Virginia Tech was the only school that there was
a bigger school that recruited me.

Speaker 2 (49:48):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait
a minute. Then they tell me to walk on and
they still interested. Brow I ain't got no dollars, okay,
but they still interested. Not not interested enough, okay, got you.

Speaker 1 (49:59):
So every other school that I had was a West
Virginia was a West Virginia team wasn't was it basically
a D three team with the exception of Marshall. Yeah,
And that's when Sunny Sonny random came in and then
he offered me a full ride.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
I took that. Now we weren't like we were never good.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
But it's different. What I'm saying is like you got
college is different. So the way in which an NFL
scout is doing that analysis, like you said, they don't
care about all that wins and losses. They're looking at
metric steps. They can pinpoint all that sort of thing.
I'm saying, Come ou out of high school where it's
so cluttered, it's it's a it's thousands of millions of

(50:41):
I'm gonna say millions, but it's hundreds of thousands of
kids coming out trying to get to a spot potentially right,
you know what I'm saying. And if you're at a
dogget program where you don't have any staff line or
the status line, don't look good compared to your actual
talent because you're just in a bad spot. I'm saying,
ultimately that hurts you and and it compounds in a
world where a D two program historically that took all

(51:07):
high school kids. A lot of local kids are kids
who couldn't find a home. When they're just taking basically
all transfer, it might be less than five ten high
school kids coming in.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Now that hurts.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
You got to get to a point where you can shine.
And I think some parents think like it to your
and I will, I will go with you on the
reality of today, they're finding a transfer, they're finding another
kid that's that played a year or two the same money. Yes,
they playing it, not like they're paying more or less.

(51:40):
It's the same money, which which does make it really
really challenging on the high school athlete because it's the
same argument that having like people are criticizing Debo Deebo
swinging at Clemson head football coach because of the comments
that he's making in regard to that because he's not
or he's fell into it just with the time. So
even Nick Saban was like, bro, either you gotta you

(52:01):
know you either you're gonna do it how it's supposed
to be done now or you're not.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
You can't live in the past.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
So I'm saying again, ultimately, in the perfect world, we
would want those kids to stay in that community and
come up through the ranks and do those things. But
I think, to me, in order to accomplish that, the
head coach's job is different.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Now.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
You know you, I think you have to get or
you got to strive to get coaches who can manage
the day to day operations of your football program and
or you feel comfortable during that at times. That's going
to allot you the time to get into the community.

Speaker 7 (52:37):
Let me it is what you're saying here. Do you
think that the NI on the changes to the transfer
rules that we've made in West Virginia, do you think
that it has made high school more like college?

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Then get one hundred percent it's more like college, because
again now it's almost like it's like that, it's like college,
but not because you can't recruit, so unlike college where
you're not supposed to, you can't you know, legally recruit.
So now it's sort of a coach what you're hoping
like if I'm South Charleston, Poker of Saint Albans, you know,

(53:10):
of Riverside, if I'm those programs, I'm wishing and wishing
that I could get five, you know, maybe five to
ten kids to come in.

Speaker 4 (53:18):
Right.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
I can't go out and legally do that, but I'm
hoping that I can get five or ten players in
that could add to the program and add to the
kids that I have. So in lieu of that, if
I'm a coach at programs who are similarly situated like that,
I have to get into the community. So I gotta
be at the Little League games. I gotta be at
the middle school games. I gotta get to know the parents.

(53:39):
I gotta be sort of in the community. Your darn
there just a politician now, because you got to have
your face shown. People get comfortable because people may send
to their kids forget wins and losses. I like coach Lee.
I want to see it because I like the man
that he is. I'm gonna go up there and they
can figure it out. He got the program, like I said,
even selling the program. Hey man, we ain't got we

(54:01):
We had a bad year. We ain't make the playoffs.
But our team got to collect the three point five GPA.
That's gonna sell some parents. Our kids are averaged forty
time went from this to this, So our average bitch
press went from this to this over this perce. So
you gotta find anything you can sell, now sell it
to get people to get into that program, and I

(54:21):
and we can close it out here. But I buy
that I buy that sell. But my fear of the
sale is somebody's gonna sell the wrong thing percent.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
You know that somebody's gonna sell the.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Wrong the wrong thing, and and with without a conscience
and bring kids in and and and end up creating
a situation where you know, who knows what happens to
the get going forward. Yeah, but you gotta I mean,
that's obviously you're one hundred percent right, that can't happen.
But at the same time, man, something, you gotta do something.

(54:58):
All right, Well, this we could have, we could we
could do this all day.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, We're gonna get out of here.
We will be back again next week. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
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(55:29):
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