August 21, 2025 • 56 mins
Attorney Paul Saluja joins Carl Lee, Hollis Lewis, and Lisa Otey in studio to talk about the hot button issue in West Virginia sports this year: Name, Image, and Likeness, or "NIL." The crew deep dives into what the new WVSSAC policy might mean for student athletes and coaches, what may not be allowed, and more. Plus, the discussion turns to how NIL and the Transfer Portal are changing the landscape of sports all across the Mountain State. Let's Talk!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Yeah, you gotta work. You gotta work, ry Shine, It's
mine gotta show.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Everybody is mine.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Sign you gotta work, Crime Shine another mind.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm trying to die to day line. Don't talk, You've
gotta burk.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Welcome to Let's Talk with Carl Lee and frequent guest
hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
(00:43):
by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
on Let's Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
and I have my two co in the building tonight
with me, Hollis Lewis, Hello, Hello, and Lisa Odie, and
we have a very special guest and we're gonna talk.
We're gonna talk about some nil stuff which is seemingly
(01:17):
keeps returning in different forms in fashion, and so we
can't afford but not to address it. So Hollis, let
us let us introduce allR to help us navigate this conversation.
We have attorney Paul Solution and he's working in the
sports management sports agency space. Am I correcting that that
(01:40):
is correct?
Speaker 4 (01:41):
We do help athletes.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, So recently the w v s SAC, which is
the West Virginia Secondary Athletic Conference Association, they passed the
policy in which middle school and high school students would
now be eligible to cash in on ni L. So
if you could just walk us through kind of what
the policies entails and you know, how should we be
(02:05):
thinking about navigating this and in their future.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you, thank you for coming.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I appreciate all of you, know each of you, and
it's wonderful to be here. But to answer your question,
the reality is West Virginia is finally joining the NIL bandwagon,
where the fourth forty fourth state that has actually implemented
and the policy is basically fairly straightforward. What they've changed
(02:35):
is that a student athlete can receive compensation for their name, image,
and likeness. There are some restrictions on that. For example,
they cannot enter the transfer portal and be enticed by
nil money. There's certain restrictions such as they can't advertise
for alcohol, tobacco and other things. They're also not permitted
(02:57):
to use the school logo or anything like that. But otherwise,
as long as they abide by those they should be
able to be compensated for their brand, their image, and.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Likeness and prior In different from the NCAA policy, or
at least the former policy, they actually have to do
something in a promotional capacity. So they cannot just like
receive quote unquote payments directly from school alumni both booster collective.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Correct, that is correct. So they have to you know,
it could be anything from an autograph session. It could
be anything from promoting a little drill session that they
come out, so that there's a lot of things that
can be done. But yes, they do have to do
something for it. They have to quote unquote earn it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, okay, so when you say earn it, does that?
Can I earn that also by participation by my.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
So it's not pay for play, Okay, that's separate.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So let me ask you this then, if i'm if
i'm if I'm the top player, on a team.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Isn't it most likely that I'm going to be that
guy or girl that's gonna get get most likely to
get the deal.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm not so sure. You know, if you think about it,
it goes back to there's no I in team.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I understand that yet.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
But realistically, uh, you may have a stellar athlete, but
ultimately you know they're being compensated, not just they're being
compensated for not just.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Their uh.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Athletic prowess, but they're being compensated for their brand, that name,
image and likeness. And I say that because they have
to develop that brand, they have to develop a notoriety,
they have to develop a following, and I think that
that's where you're going to see certain student athletes stand
out and others fall behind. So even though you may
be the stellar athlete, you may have someone else who
(05:09):
is a supporting athlete, but he or she may be
able to develop a greater brand by virtue of how
they market themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I would argue that that's going to be the real
winners in this is the kids who and their parents
who understand how to market. Just because you're the star athlete,
that's not any guarantee that you're going to get any
money from this. There was a student that he just
graduated from South Charleston High School's name was and this
is what they call him, Missus Moniker online. His name
is a white boym and he has millions of millions
(05:40):
of you know, social media followers. So if he was
somebody who was playing in some sort of sport at
the high school, he would cash in and without necessarily
having to be the star. So I don't think it's
necessarily like you're the best player, so you're gonna get
the money. And I know who you're talking about, and
I could and I could justifiably say he would be
(06:02):
he was just good enough. But he was so known
and everybody recognized him. He would be the guy that
I would go to to talk to just because I
know he's gonna just through the school, just him being
in the school, he's going to be a person that's
going to bring me attention.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, And when you think about it, you've actually hit
the nail on the head. You know, all these businesses
that want to, you know, pay a student athlete to
promote their business using their brand. They want to have
a return on their investment. And that's going to involve
who can get the word out the best. You know,
as you indicated Hollis, you may be the best athlete,
(06:44):
but what if you're just a supporting athlete and you've
got a million followers. I'm not so sure I wouldn't
spend my money on that as opposed to you know,
just the stud quarterback.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
So so so, Paul, first of all, thank you so
much for helping us navigate these, uh, these new waters
that West Virginia's excuse me entering with with NIL. But
I read through the policy today some of the you know,
different pieces of it. In one part kind of you
mentioned this already, but you mentioned that student athletes may
(07:17):
not wear the appair or display the logo or identifying
mark of an NIL partner during any team activity. So
we're not just talking about like game day. Like so
let's say that they have this deal with you know,
some company, and they wear a shirt to practice or
meet the team, or there's a booster activity. What will
(07:38):
there be like ramifications for those activities as well, just
not just.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Game day the way I read it. And then please
understand this is all brand news. We'll surely we need
guidance from the W S, S A C. The reality is,
I'm not sure that I do think the way it's
written it would encompass those other activities even if you
had practices. I think that they're not allowed to bring
(08:02):
in who they're advertising for.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I say, I read it the other way. I thought
you couldn't like advertise it, like when you're doing these
endorsements and brand deals, you couldn't have the school's logo.
That's how that did I read it that. I thought
I read that that is one part. That's what's great. Okay,
maybe I missed out. Okay, So are we saying that
we can't we can't necessarily do the school, nor can
(08:27):
we do not during a school I don't think it
could be crossed over. So they have to be separate.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
This is the way I understood it. Right, during any
any type of school activity, you cannot promote your your
NIL partner.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So my so, my NIL partner is going to be
the person who's going to get me a signing. So
if I get a signing, I can't necessarily talk about
or where anything from the school.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
If I'm at the school and I'm performing, playing or anything,
I can't wear being in il donation or payment, I
can't show that company that is okay. So that's the
that's kind of the dividing piece. Yeah, that makes sense now,
(09:17):
and reading through the policy, I had two major issues
with the policy. Like I said earlier, I think the policies,
you know, it's thoughtful in that and it's a true
in I l it's not a pay for play as
we talked about earlier. But and we'll dress one at
a time. The first one is like, I don't understand
the thought behind allowing middle schoolers to do this. It
(09:42):
seems like way too early to start getting involved in
this sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
The point, you know, I think market forces will probably
decide whether or not middle schoolers will get anything. I'm
not sure they will. Yeah, you know, remember the businesses
or whoever spending the money does want some return on
their investment. They're not just you know, throwing their money away.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's a first and I guess my other problem, my
other issue with the with it is that the coaches,
they don't have any sort of say so. They they're
sort of xed out of this whole process. And again
I think that's good from the perspective that now you're
not going to have coaches, you know, playing quote unquote
middleman in between you know, a brand and you know,
(10:26):
maybe a player or something to that effect. But you know,
can coaches capitalize on this too? Shouldn't it be some
sort of say and you know, shouldn't something come through
the coach as far as.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Well, the way it's written, coaches and uh, school administrators
and everyone are not permitted to be involved in that.
And I think they were just trying to ensure that
they separated out to pay for play and truly go
with the brand and the student athletes name image and
like it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Is what it appears. And okay, so with that, I
would think, and Hollis, I'm curious about what you think
about this. If I'm a coach and let's say I
have maybe three two three players that I think could
fit this model, I would think that it would be
(11:21):
to your advantage to be able to talk to me
and have me now and this is not with my
kid being part of that mixture, but just me as
the coach and my players. And you come and you
want to be you want to do it, you want
to pay this guy, And I'm thinking, well, but Hollis,
is probably the guy that's going to be the more beneficial,
(11:43):
the more bang for your buck. I would like, I
would think that that would be something that would be
critical to have that conversation. It's almost like scouting without
talking to the coach. Yeah. I think the problem with
that though, is that if you get coaches in the
mix to that degree, then you're gonna have some hands
in the cookie jar and and coaches would now have
(12:05):
the power to sort of pull and and and you know,
shape in il deals, and that could get dicey. So
I so I understand the the bb S s a
c's policy in that it just seems like to totally
ex coaches out far as just like because I guess
as a coach, I would want to know at least, hey,
(12:27):
I would want to know kind of what you're involved
into a certain degree because I need to figure out
practice schedules, I need to figure out your timing. And
you're also going to have situations in which some kids
they don't really have any other advisors, they don't have
to your point, they don't have anybody else. And and
to confirm that we have a we have a mom
who is has her has her son in youth football today.
(12:51):
She knows nothing like how the helmet works, how the
shoulder pads work, what if that moves up and there's
an opportunity for that kid. Not saying she couldn't learn
the game, but now all of a sudden, you have
a parent who really doesn't even know what what the
(13:13):
game is. And and this is really not a legal
question more so than just hey, this is one of
those kind of situations that you could come up with
which could end up maybe being a disaster.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
I have to find a good friend, right, you know, Yeah,
I'm a good friend or family member that that knows
the game, or agent.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Agent, yeah, agent. But the reality is, I think lots
of times, if you think about it, most shodent athletes
and their parents rely on their circle of friends. And
I think that's where that's going to be more incumbent
than ever. It's gonna be very important.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So you're saying that because I know Hollis, Hollis May,
I'm going to go. I'm more likely to go to
Hollis and ask him what do you think about this situation?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
And he can give me the basically exactly. Yeah, And
you know, you go to Lisa, you go to halls.
I mean, both are very knowledgeable about sports, and they
can provide good guidance that's quote unquote unofficial guidance that
has no nothing that would jeopardize your ability to get
the nil money.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, And I would think I would think that also
creates the need for having an attorney be in and
around that situation. That would to me, I would make
that that that makes the case that that's something that
would be extremely important if you really don't know when
you may not want to trust just calling me and saying, hey,
(14:37):
what do you think. I may think something, but you know,
I'm not going to think it through. Maybe more like
you may look.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
At it, I would look at it differently. And obviously,
you know all these student athletes were talking about they're
all minors, right, So realistically, not only do you have
a minor, you've also got to worry about the contractual
obligations and you have to have a parent or a
legal guardian sign off on for it to be valid. Right.
So we so it's not just I mean at the
(15:06):
high school and the middle school level, you there are
other issues that aren't really issues at the collegiate level.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
So I'm going to go a different direction, Paul, with
this policy. So I know that it's fluid and it's early,
and you know, this is it's going to take years
to really perfect, you know, what they want to get
out of this policy, of course, But one part of
it that I read a student for you know, if
they have some type of you know, infraction against what
(15:34):
they're allowed to do and not allowed to do, and
they lose their amateur status, they have to wait. They
have to wait a complete year, one complete high school
season before they can reapply for reinstatement. That's what I read.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
I will just say that, I mean it is a fraction.
I think that that could be subject to litigation. Okay,
I see.
Speaker 6 (16:07):
What you're saying, because the interpretation of this is so
you know, we're not even sure.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
I mean, you're not even sure, you know.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
I mean we're asking questions and we're like, well, we
don't know because it hasn't happened yet. So you know
that that's a pretty stiff penalty for a student athlete
that's only in high school hoping to make it to
the collegiate level and they mess up and they break
a rule and somebody's you know, kind of out to
get them or whatever and report them to the w
v S S a C. Then they end up sitting
(16:34):
out a year because they wore a T shirt to
the wrong place.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
And what if they were a senior exactly?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yes, yes, yes, that's a yeah. I'm with you on
that one. Now, as far as like you know, expectations,
like you know, like I said we talked about earlier,
as far as getting some n I L deals, what
would be your advice to parents and student athletes to
say to maximize their opportunities while they're still in high
(17:05):
school and middle school?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
You know? To me, I think it's simple. Uh, Businesses
want to return on their investment, and businesses want to
associate with good students, good athletes, and those that are
not in trouble. And I say that and coaching can
probably attest to it. I'm sure in some of the
(17:28):
contracts you had there were morality clauses and if you
violated one of the morality clauses, you lost your your contracts.
Correct in this case, I think you're going to see
more and more of that. They're going to have morality clauses.
So things that we did as a kid, and I'll
tell you I was not perfect as a child and
(17:49):
I got into but the reality I think you're going
to see these student athletes. I think it's going to
help the parents and it's going to help the student
athlete recognize it. Look, maybe I should think before I
do this, And I think you may have some tangential
(18:12):
benefits out of this NIL because some of those student
athletes are going to think twice before they do something.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
And I think too, you know, you kind of emphasize
the parent also, because I think sometimes that parent who
has that talented kid who may be in line for
these opportunities, could all of a sudden because they think
that they're getting ready to get it. There's things that
(18:40):
they say, things that they do that they probably shouldn't.
They could end up being They could end up becoming
the reason why a kid could lose out on an
NIL deal, just simply because of how they handle themselves.
Because they think, Oh, I've got this kid, somebody's already
talking to him, we've got an attorney, we've got this
(19:02):
great deal, and you're saying all these things that you
might not be allowed to say. So I would think,
so if I'm a parent, where do I go to
get that information of what I can and can't do.
Is that something that they can get, Is it something
they're supposed to know or they got to figure it out?
How would they.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, I would hope that the WSSAC would open up
a kind of like a guidance email so that you
can send them an email or give them a call
so that you can get clarification. I would hope that
that would be part of the process as all this unravels.
If not, they can come seek professional advice. Obviously that
(19:44):
ultimately costs money, but the reality is there should be
a number of ways, And first and foremost, I hope
the s SAC opens up a guidance line, for lack
of a better some type.
Speaker 6 (19:57):
Of website or something that you.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Could go and where everybody and I know we talked
about earlier West Virginia being the forty fourth state to
implement high school and middle school NIL policies, and could
you just talk about the necessity of really having to
do this now, because I think we were at a
sort of at a breaking point where we could potentially
lose athletes to other states if we didn't well.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
So earlier this year I had a student athlete that
asked me to see what we can be what could
be done for nil at the legislature. We went and
unfortunately we were not successful with that, but at least
the momentum carried and it ultimately changed. And I raised
that issue because the West Virginia delegates and the West
(20:44):
Virginia senators that were on the border counties were the
ones that were most appreciative of the efforts and were
very much in support. And if you think about it,
why because if you have a stellar athlete at Huntington,
they could have gone to Kentucky, which at the time
didn't have it, now does Ohio, which already had it.
(21:07):
So West Virginia would have lost a stellar athlete. West
Virginia would have lost the positive press on a national basis.
And you know what, as much as our government has
told us that we don't have moneys and that we're
in the red, it'll help with the tax base because
guess what, when you make money, you gotta pay their taxes.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Are yeah, yeah, And I think for me that's sort
of a major point because we've seen a lot of
you know, athletes in the Huntington Cable County area sort
of jumped those borders. So it's definitely important that and again,
I know everybody doesn't like it, but I think it
was necessary. And I just applauded wv S SAC forgetting
it done now and not being fiftieth point.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
We're forty fourth.
Speaker 7 (21:54):
Here's what I kind of wonder about, though. You've got
all these online platforms, and now you've got all these
folks that have become influencers, who have got tens of thousands,
sometimes hundreds of thousands, even millions of followers. And yeah,
so they might be the stud of a football team
or on a basketball team or whatever. They might be
(22:16):
that star player, but they've also already got a following
that really has nothing to do with that. They just
happen to excel in a lot of different things. So
does that maybe create a little bit of a gray
area where you've got companies that have already been doing
brand deals with these people for their social media following
(22:36):
and it just so happens that they're also the star
player at such a certain school or what have you.
You know that are we just is that what maybe
brought us to why we need this in the first place,
is rather than just trying to skirt around and say,
oh no, no, you know, we've got a brand deal
with that kid because they've got a huge social media following.
It has nothing to do with them being a star athlete.
(22:59):
Just to tack this head on, say you know what
this kid is worth it, We're just gonna pay them
what they deserve.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
You know, I think it needed to be I think
it needed to be a tack head on. But you
made a good point. I think that would have been
in the gray area. When you have a student athlete
who's got a tremendous following, whether they're a stellar athlete
or not, those million followers, that's worth a substantial amount
of money to social media, and as a result, businesses
(23:26):
are willing to pay that. You see all these social
media influencers on TikTok and on Facebook and Instagram, and
the minute they get these followers, they put something out
everybody jumps on it.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to figure out just in
this piece of the conversation, I'm thinking, Gosh, I can
think of a whole lot of guys in the NFL,
guys that I played college ball, if they were getting
paid for the influence that they had the following of
(24:02):
the audience. I mean, are we heading that direction?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
You look at the Gronk I mean you think about
his social media following, right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, it's true, the baby Gronk kid.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Look at the reality is he developed an excellent branding
of himself and leveraged it.
Speaker 7 (24:22):
When you have to wonder two the Kelsey Brothers making
more money now with their new heights of podcasts than
they are playing on the NFL field, I mean probably,
And I think.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
That's one of the issues as well, because when you
talk a guy like like Paul George, for example, one
of his criticisms is that he'll go out play for
the seventy six is lay an egg and the next
day he's on his podcast and actually management, the coaches
made him actually stopped doing the podcast until you like
get it together. So one of the issues, again I've
(24:53):
talked about earlier, is that I think now we're in
this situation in which, and I think this is probably
gonna be more so on the parents. They're sort of
putting more emphasis on developing the brand than developing the
athleticism on the field and court.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's a you know, so, I mean there has to
be a balance. Yeah, And I and hollers. To your point,
I'm you know, I do we. I'm involved with youth sports,
and I had a peak at the middle school teams,
and I've had a peak at the high school. As
far as coaching, it's way easier, or at least it
(25:31):
seems way easier to get a following than it is
to become a great player. I don't know, you know.
And and but to your point, what can I just
go out there and and and and chase a following,
chase this image that I can create and I can
(25:53):
be the third string quarterback and I can make money.
The answer is yes, The answer is absolutely, And that
actually might be hilarious. Yes, you stream quarterback out there?
It Yeah, I mean because if you're looking at it
and you can say, okay, well, Hollis is better than me,
variants better than me. This is my gig.
Speaker 7 (26:14):
I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
This is my gig. They out there chasing each other
trying to be a starter. You know what, I'll just
chase social media and I'll be funny and I'll make money. Yeah,
all right, cats the kittens? Have you heard?
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Now back to the conversation.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
Since we're talking about ANIL and are at one of
our other favorite subjects on this podcast, Paul is the
te transfer portal of course in the state, that's our
other one. So I read an article and Wayne Ryan,
who's the executive director of the w b SAC, had
made a comment and I just wanted to get your
thoughts on this. But he mentioned that if students couldn't
(28:19):
transfer for athletic reasons as freely as they can now,
this would not be as big of an issue the NIL.
So he's blaming a lenient transfer rule rather than the
other parts that we're discussing. Can you kind of ex
what do you think he means by that statement? Can
you expand on that.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
I'm really not sure what his thought process is. I
mean the transfer portal in it's a separate issue. It's
a separate issue. And also you only allowed one free transfers,
right right, right, right, is what they've put into their
rules and REGs, even though the legislature, by the way,
had had it said different. They said, at least one
(29:04):
the wording in the statutes different than what w S
s AC is embodied.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
So and I think, go ahead. I'm sorry, yeah, And
I was saying to Lisa's point, there are there is
a mention in the policy that you cannot transfer strictly
for nil in the policy right.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Right, But but I want to, you know, maybe go back.
And you know, I know Lisa comes from an awesome background.
She was a former teacher. And you know we've we've
said and if you've noticed, I've said a number of times,
it's a student athlete. So nil, they're looking at nil
for amateur status. We have to look at it also
(29:46):
from a different perspective. What if you have a good
chess player for you know, good point and or what
if you have someone that's on a robotics team and
there's an attorney in towns front of mine, his son
is competed nationally in these robotic competitions with his team.
(30:06):
What about them? What if all of a sudden you
got Elon Musk who decides, you know what, I like
that team and I need to spawn.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What is that?
Speaker 4 (30:15):
And think about that also?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
I mean the spelling Bee champ. I would imagine as
far as like in middle schools particularly, there's probably no
bigger start athletically otherwise.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Than like this extracurricular than it is.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
It's athletic.
Speaker 6 (30:29):
I mean, it can be athletic, but it can also
be extracurricular, right, I mean.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Well, ws SAC is West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Commission activities,
so it embodies more.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I was going to say, what's crazy about that? Nobody
thinks that when you hear that you automatically go to
a sport. You don't think. No, there's nothing about that
makes me think academics. But now that you say that,
I mean, I would think that maybe those kids might
even have a bigger opportunity I think, so you know
(31:02):
what I mean, Like I said, could you look at
like the spelling b champion that's a nationally televised event,
and if you're the champ of the spelling being for
seventh grade. Think about the sponsorship and promotional opportunities that
may be there for commercials nationally, local and otherwise.
Speaker 7 (31:17):
Well, and even activities like music or the arts, for example,
marching band, show choir. All of that is also dictated
by the rules of the wv S SAC.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And what's interesting about that is that that's something that
we don't necessarily look at. At least I'm gonna make
the case maybe I'm stereotyping me and you, Hollis, but
that we don't consider part of the s SAC. I
think most people don't. Most people are looking at athletics,
and I would think in sports, yeah, yeah, for sure,
(31:51):
everything is quota team sport. But when you start mentioning
these other things, I actually like that even better than
I to with with the sport. But that brings up
an interesting point too, because the fact of the matter
is like the way again, I like how the policy
was written, but it's also written in a manner that
(32:12):
you really because you can't mention your accolades, whether it
be in the activity or on you know, the field
or court. It almost creates a situation in which you
really can't use how good you are in these things.
It really is like you have to be a brand
outside of the sport. Even because I can't mention that
(32:33):
I'm the quarterback for South Charleston High. I can't mention
that I'm the captain of the chess team for this
particular school. So the way it's written now that I'm
thinking about it, it almost makes it even a little
bit harder to capture that nil the strictly based off
how good I am at this particular activity in sport.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
And you know, you raise a good point because it
is your brand, name, image and likeness is your brand.
You know, if you look back and going back to sports,
many of you remember EA Sports they had that college
football and they had that game. They discontinued, I believe
in around twenty eleven. It's back now it is back,
(33:15):
and why because now they're paying the student athletes because
in the past they weren't and it was their brand.
Remember the student athlete's name wasn't on. Yeah, it had
their number and it had their statistics, but that's still
their brand, and those student athletes should be compensated for it,
and they have to develop that brand, I guess in
(33:36):
parallel to their athletic achievement, And I.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Guess that's my point. It seems like it's going to
be difficult, Like I said, if you just the start,
like if you don't necessarily have big social media following
all that other things, it seems like it's going to
be difficult to really cash in on the NIL without
letting the audience and the people know. Hey, I'm the
star quarterback of here, I'm the captain of the basketball team.
I play tennis here. Do you see what I'm saying.
(34:01):
I knew because the EA sports example that you used,
it's that quarterback, that left tackle, that defensive back in
association with that school brand. So there'll become one.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
But you know, Uh, I went to g W and
graduated a couple of years ago. When we got when
we graduated, uh my, this will date me uh my
junior year we won the UH Triple A football championship.
And I will tell you everybody in town knew uh.
And we all read the mine who was his uh,
(34:36):
who was the star quarterback, who was a junior who's
in my class? And everybody knew uh. The star running
back and the wide receiver. Everybody knew their name.
Speaker 6 (34:45):
He didn't have to advertise.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
He didn't have to. He didn't have to, but I
recognized him because you know they were in the back.
Then everybody read the newspaper. So you know, Saturday morning,
everybody's reading all the articles that the Gazettes got put
out and they're talking about the statistics, and they got
their names in there. So everybody stay wide because of
the coverage, was automatically getting their brand, their brand being developed.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Now now, okay, so I guess I'm saying this like,
if we're talking about developing that brand. If to your point,
if I have these million or so followers online, part
of probably me getting that in addition to if I
have seen any sort of special talents, I'm funny, whatever.
If I'm posting my highlights, right so, if I'm posting
my highlights from whatever sport of activity that I'm involved with,
(35:33):
part of that may be enticing to a brand to
want to work with me based on that. But yet
I can't say that I could say, hey, I'm a quarterback.
I can't say that I'm the quarterback here. And to
your point earlier, now, when you're talking online, it's national,
so they may not know you in association. You know
(35:58):
far as what particularly you're.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Doing, I do, and I think you know. For example,
if the student athlete wants to post on their own
social media highlights from the game, if they get it,
they're allowed to have it, then by all means they
should be able to post it. I don't think that
affects the nil and the reason is is because nobody's
paying for that that's on their own social media. But
(36:21):
the minute they get paid for a promotion, that's where
I think the restriction comes into place. Remember, student athletes
are posting that all the time so that they can
get college scholarships. Yeah, they're trying to you know, develop
their their athletic prowess and advertise that, but that's not
to a specific person that's paying for it.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
Well, this is probably why it's so important for the
players that are good are going to be the ones
that are going to get the name recognition from the
folks that West Virginia Matron is.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
HD media house getting it.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
They're getting the recognition, so their name's getting put out
there just because the media is doing what it naturally
does and picks it up, and their name is up
every week because you know, they're doing whatever on the
field or what have you there, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
And hopefully winning the national Aeronautical something. Yeah, is picking
it up.
Speaker 6 (37:13):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And so I have in my mind I was thinking
as Hollis was talking, and I was thinking about Robert Alexander,
who you know, we all know has passed away, and
he was kind of the guy who got me into
you know, the workouts and all that kind of stuff
and really had a huge impact on my career. His
(37:37):
his name and likeness and everything at that time was
not just it wasn't just local, it was literally nationally
you know him. And again I'll go to Kurt Warner,
who you're talking about two guys who were the best
back in the nation. So now none of their football
(37:58):
stats really matter, but what their attention, what attention they
are getting the most, because that's why you that's okay,
yeah if the okay, but okay, so you could have
the stats, but maybe if you're not getting these, so
let's just say Robert and k and Kurt. I think
(38:22):
I think Robert got more attention than Kurt regardless of
who was the best, because he went to West Virginia
and all of that kind of conversation. Kurt got the
negativity for going to Penn State. But to that point,
their talent. While it got them a scholarship, it doesn't
(38:44):
necessarily mean that they're popular to the people or they're
publicly positive publicly negative. Does that make sense?
Speaker 6 (38:55):
Like them have social media back then. That's why I'm
completely different.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
But I that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to put that in in today. So let's say Roberts
had some negativity about him, Kurt had positive for himself.
Regardless of who you thought was the best, Kurt is
likely going to be the get the most attention. I
(39:20):
guess what I'm saying is this, Like, for example, if
I have an amazing game, and in that game, I
have an amazing play, I have one of them plays
that's on the top ten of the Friday Night Lights. Right,
I mean I have an absolute play. Right, I cannot
use that play even though if I post it on
(39:41):
my social media, that play may get millions of hits
on mine, it can get millions hits on the WCHS,
Metro News, he can get hits all over the platform,
he can go viral. I can't use that play in
order to capitalize on the nil deal. Like, so, I
think that if you the way it is written, and
it's so far separate that I think it's going to
(40:03):
make it hard for somebody who does not have the
personality to brand themselves in a way that's going to
capture millions of people online. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
Well, what.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
The attorney is.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Looking at here, what I'm thinking is no, I'm thinking,
you know what, you need to call my office tomorrow.
We need we need to find money for you from
Friday night.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
So that that's the other part of it. So that's
the other part of it. So now if these other
news outlets post this amazing highlights and they're monetizing their
sites off of and I could direct the hey this
got ten million using you may x amount of money.
I need a cut of that now. But the way
the policy is written, I can't get a cut of that.
(40:50):
So it's like I can't use my athletic prowess to
get money. It's only about if I'm goofy online. Does
that make sense?
Speaker 6 (40:59):
Well, we talked about this and we were waiting to
come on Paul and Carl and Hollis was on his way.
But anyway, we were talking about like, now that we
have this in place and they're able to be paid
for their brand. Like let's say you know what he
was saying, HD Media or you know RSN Sports wants
to interview this star athlete.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
It is a we.
Speaker 6 (41:22):
The athlete can appropriately ask for compensation, correct, I mean
they can say for a fee. I can be they
don't have to, but they can right.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Right now, That's that's an area that's a gray area. Okay,
theoretically they can. But if you recall, like coach will
be able to test to this you know what, and
part of those contracts they were required to speak to
the media and ws SAC can say, you know what.
To be able to participate, you need to speak with them.
Speaker 6 (41:49):
But they haven't done that yet. You haven't done that yet,
so that could be something that could happen, right theoretically,
I just like.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I said, I like the policy because it is a
true ni L because you're not actually getting just money
handed to you. But I think the policy is is
a little flawed in that I should be able to
use my highlights, I should be able to use my
status as you know, chess player, quarterback, roboties club, whatever,
in order to get those in IL deals as well.
(42:17):
So I think that's just I agree with that. I
agree with that because at the end of the day,
what how I'm thinking I want to as an athlete,
I'm thinking how I need to market myself. I'm thinking
I'm marketing myself as an as an athlete because it
prevents you from being doing goofy stuff online, preventing that,
(42:38):
you know what I'm saying. I'm just saying, if you're
not that tight, that's because some key to are you know, serious,
and they're not with the goofy stuff online. They're strictly
online to say, hey, this this is the rest I got.
This is I'm this sort of athlete, I'm this sort
of family kid. So now those kids may not be
(42:59):
able to get those same opportunities and looks. There's one.
Speaker 7 (43:05):
Think of Michael Jordan, for example, that is the Nike
Air Jordan brand. He never ever wore anything that actually
was NBA branded Chicago Bulls. In all those commercials, it
was just Jordan and the Nike Air Jordan's stuff. And
I think that's kind of.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, sort of what you're trying to we we we
don't bring his air in this.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Conversations level, but on that professional level, even on that
high level, I mean, you're still separating that out between
the player versus the league.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So let me I'm going to ask the from from
the comments you heard me, do you think there's gonna
be as we flushed this out in years to come?
Do you think there's gonna be room for those sort
of adjustments and to rethink it.
Speaker 4 (43:53):
I think there's I think this is great starting point.
I think the S S, S, S A C should
be applauded for and taken the step. I do think
it's going to take a number of years to finally
flush out and figure out after the dust settles, what
the final rules are going to look like. I think
it's I think this is a starting point. This is
not the end. But you know, back if I could
circle back, everybody was talking about the difference between you know,
(44:17):
the athletic and then the branding. I think it's separate,
but I also think it goes hand in hand. And
I'll let me give you a good example. Everybody at
this table, and I bet everybody that would listen to
this show, and most people nationally prior to social media,
there was a guy that played football at W his
name was Major Hairs. He developed a brand nationally without
(44:43):
ever once using social media. He developed it with his
superior athletic abilities and you know his ability to try
to win the game. And that just goes to show
you can brand yourself using social media, but you also
have the ability to just brand yourself quote unquote on
the field.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
But who can we say, and we're talking local, not
anybody from anywhere else, who can we say in the
past ten years, from high school to college within the
state of West Virginia has had that sort of Randy Moss,
Robert Alexander, Major Harrison impact. Who can we say, who
can we name ten years?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Okay, so he's twelve.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Years years. Because I'm talking about in the middle of
the social media area. Who can we say they had
that national level impact? Because we could probably name some
some some guys who had it just off their social
media stuff. But I'm talking pure, pure ball that had
(45:47):
a national impact. Hollis Lewis No, I mean, I don't.
I don't. I don't think in the last ten years.
I don't think college, high school.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
Who if I could intern Jack, I mean, it may
not be a name that everybody here would recognize but
there was a Marshall goalie on the national championship team
Paola and he ended up getting some great contracts.
Speaker 6 (46:13):
Okay, that's what That's a perfect example what you were saying.
People typically go to football and basketball. They don't go
to those Yeah, those other sports.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
And and to my flaw, I was going to add
you to it, but I'll just keep it on my own.
To my flaw, like like those types of sports, like
I wouldn't necessarily know that names, you know, because that
wouldn't be somewhere where I would think to look. And
when you start to open that window, I mean there's
(46:44):
there could be you know, there could be a golfer
there could you know, there could be a volleyball player.
I mean, there could be a ton out there that
have that quote star power along with the game. That
could be that could easily fall into this window. And
(47:05):
I and I guess what I'm saying is like I
think it's my point is just that I think it's
more difficult to have that same star payer power now
than it is in yesteryear. And I think it's even
more difficult when we're saying you can't basically mention your athleticism. Well,
I don't know. I think it. I actually think it's
easier because I think it's not. I think I think
(47:26):
it is because you can't one. You can't name one.
But I'm I'm everybody. Everybody knew Randy Moss, everybody knew
Major Harris, whether you was a fan or not. You
can't name one because it's more crowded.
Speaker 6 (47:42):
Depend on their success too in the sport and and
their teams success because Major Harris he took the team
to the national championship that year. Correct, so that one year.
But but yeah, it I think it. I'm like Carl,
I'm kind of team Carl here. I think that I
would think it would be easy.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
It's not because you can't name one. We can name
Lexis Hornbuckle renamed Montgomery. That's outside of the ten year window.
We can name a bunch of people, but we can
within the last ten year could because it's so crowded,
you can't. Really there's not a one that just jumps
off the page that nationally.
Speaker 7 (48:18):
Everybody everybody's highlights her on YouTube. Now social media has
equalized it.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Well, I'm gonna say, okay, to your point about everybody
being on YouTube, or somewhere. We can sit in the
room and we may not know, but there may be
some folks out there that know people who I ain't
talking about them I'm talking about in this room.
Speaker 6 (48:50):
No, I just have one more thing, and I just
want Paul's opinion. We've talked all about, you know, these
different aspects of this and I policy, and so when
I read through it, there was one piece that said
compensation for giving private lessons is permissible if approved by
the W E, S, S a C. Now do you
(49:13):
feel like that's and this is personal and this isn't
your your law degree speaking. Don't you think that's kind
of outside the lines of ni L When you think
about giving private lessons and who would be the one
who would decide? Would they have a special committee? Like
you U said, I'm going to give this kid lessons
and football? Why are going to go in front of
the committee and make sure it's okay? I mean, what's
(49:34):
your opinion of that?
Speaker 4 (49:35):
Pomp personal opinion?
Speaker 6 (49:36):
You're personal, not law, not law, your Paul.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Okay, So so my personal opinion is, first of all,
the teacher is the only one that came in with
notes and keeps asking.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Me these pop questions.
Speaker 9 (49:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
There because teacher, you should have given me my reading
before I ride. This is a personal thing.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
This isn't anything. This is actually part of it. I
mean I read the policy and this was this was
a piece of it. And I'm like, this is kind
of out of the lines. I mean, do we really
need that. I mean, I think I understand what they're
trying to do, but that kind of goes above and beyond.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
I think it goes above and beyond. Yes, I don't
think it's a part of nil. And by the way,
I also fundamentally, this is me speaking. They need not
review the contracts. I have no problem if they want
to review the contracts as long as they post every
person wvss AC salary.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Oh yeah, I want to.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
I want to know what every one of them makes.
But if they want to know what my client makes,
I got no problem because it's for his brand, not
for athletics. It's not for his activities. So I got
no problem. But then let's just post it on their website.
Every salary needs to be posted.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
I like that. I would like this is you're right
my alley, Okay, I would like to have like, let's
talk about this publicly. Let's let's sit down and have
this discussion of why you came to this. I don't
care who voted for it and who didn't, But tell
(51:08):
me the conversation in which you had to make you
think this is good or this is bad. That's my
problem is, like I'm not sure that they're always right
on some of the policies that they create. As an athlete,
you know that has played the game. I don't know
(51:28):
who's really all on that board. I don't know if
you've got a ton of athletes, you got one, you
got none. I have no idea who's there, So I can't.
So it's hard for me to say when you make
a judgment on something that you made the right one
or the wrong one because I don't know, Like I
don't know who you I don't know where you're I
(51:49):
don't know where your background is, I don't know where
you got Like this takes to me, This takes some
really thought provoking kind of of talk to to get
to it, Like you as an attorney, like you're looking
at this in a way they did they use your
(52:10):
thought process to get to where they are. I don't
think so. I think it's I don't either. I think
it's like, no, I just don't agree with that. I
just don't like it.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Well, if you recall, before we came on the air,
I talked about one thing that I propose they should
do that they didn't do, which is I think they
should have had financial training planning for the student athletes
prior to being eligible for a contract, which would be good. Now,
who can say there's anything wrong with that? I mean
(52:38):
that's ed. First of all, education as a whole. I
got teacher next to me. It's always promoted. There's nothing
wrong with learning more. But to educate these student athletes.
You know, let's say you do have even if it's
not a super stud Let's say you have a student
athlete that gets twenty five thousand dollars. Okay, what's here
or is she going to do with it? First, thing's
(53:00):
got to pay taxes. She's got to pay taxes. Well,
what do you do with the balance? Well, I'm not sure.
Well they have they have no concept, and I think
that's where that training should have been implemented as a
part of this policy. That way, they have to take
some class. And by the way, it's not I would
like to say it's a novel approach, and Paul Sluca
(53:22):
came up this idea. It's not that other states have
already done that, and so I'd read and I thought
it would be great for them to embody it here
as well.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
All right, well, well what can they find you at,
Paul if they want to, if they have more questions,
they want to get consultation.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
Absolutely, they can call my office anytime. Three zero four
seven five five one one zero one.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Give it to them again, justin Gates.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
Three zero four seven five five one one zero one.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
All right, there you go, ladies and gentlemen. So if
you're looking for somebody, there's a number. Hollis. I don't know.
I think we were somewhat close today. We were something
much closer to that we were. We were, like I said,
and again, just to clarify, I think this is a
great idea. I'm glad West Virginia took the step, but
(54:08):
I think there are some things going to have to
be cleaned up in the future, because we want to
make sure in my mind that n I L is
about your performance on the field and not just you
trying to be goofy or do something dangerous online to
get attention right. That is that is that is scary
because somebody is going to somebody if it's not my
performance on the field, it's who I am off the field.
(54:31):
That's a that's a that's a that's a risky thing.
Speaker 6 (54:34):
I think it's a great policy. I agree with Hollis
and and you know, I think it's going to have
to be tweaked. You know, there's going to be growing
pains with this. You're going to have issues come up
that people are going to question parts of it and
test it even but you know, in the long run,
we had to do it. It's just a pure and
simple it had to be done well.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I mean it was, it was, It was I was
actually hoping that we didn't get here, but but we don't.
There was really no choice. Yeah, I mean at this point,
would you say, we're forty forty four, so deadline we
waits around. It's too so Kentucky, Ohio, and I think Virginia, Maryland.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
Kentucky was the last and around took at Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
All of them were doing yeah we Yeah, you had
no choice. You were losing your chance to lose kids there. Yeah,
so all right, ladies and gentlemen. We appreciate you being
with us today and we will be back again next week.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Let's Talk with Carl Lee as presented by Attorney Frank
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(55:51):
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Yeah, you gotta work. You gotta work, ry Shine, It's
mine gotta show.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Everybody is mine.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Sign you gotta work, Crime Shine another mind.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm trying to die to day line. Don't talk, You've
gotta burk.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Welcome to Let's Talk with Carl Lee and frequent guest
hosts Hollis Lewis and Lisa Odie, where sports culture and
community intersect. Join the crew as they dive into engaging
conversations with guests from all walks of the sports life.
Let's Talk as proudly presented by Attorney Frank Walker, Real Talk,
Real Experience, Real Results, Frank Walker Law dot com and
(00:43):
by the all new historic Choyir Diner in downtown Charleston
one line at Choyerdner dot com. Let the conversation begin
on Let's Talk.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hello, ladies and gentlemen, This is Carl Lee with Let's Talk,
and I have my two co in the building tonight
with me, Hollis Lewis, Hello, Hello, and Lisa Odie, and
we have a very special guest and we're gonna talk.
We're gonna talk about some nil stuff which is seemingly
(01:17):
keeps returning in different forms in fashion, and so we
can't afford but not to address it. So Hollis, let
us let us introduce allR to help us navigate this conversation.
We have attorney Paul Solution and he's working in the
sports management sports agency space. Am I correcting that that
(01:40):
is correct?
Speaker 4 (01:41):
We do help athletes.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, So recently the w v s SAC, which is
the West Virginia Secondary Athletic Conference Association, they passed the
policy in which middle school and high school students would
now be eligible to cash in on ni L. So
if you could just walk us through kind of what
the policies entails and you know, how should we be
(02:05):
thinking about navigating this and in their future.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you, thank you for coming.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I appreciate all of you, know each of you, and
it's wonderful to be here. But to answer your question,
the reality is West Virginia is finally joining the NIL bandwagon,
where the fourth forty fourth state that has actually implemented
and the policy is basically fairly straightforward. What they've changed
(02:35):
is that a student athlete can receive compensation for their name, image,
and likeness. There are some restrictions on that. For example,
they cannot enter the transfer portal and be enticed by
nil money. There's certain restrictions such as they can't advertise
for alcohol, tobacco and other things. They're also not permitted
(02:57):
to use the school logo or anything like that. But otherwise,
as long as they abide by those they should be
able to be compensated for their brand, their image, and.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Likeness and prior In different from the NCAA policy, or
at least the former policy, they actually have to do
something in a promotional capacity. So they cannot just like
receive quote unquote payments directly from school alumni both booster collective.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Correct, that is correct. So they have to you know,
it could be anything from an autograph session. It could
be anything from promoting a little drill session that they
come out, so that there's a lot of things that
can be done. But yes, they do have to do
something for it. They have to quote unquote earn it.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, okay, so when you say earn it, does that?
Can I earn that also by participation by my.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
So it's not pay for play, Okay, that's separate.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So let me ask you this then, if i'm if
i'm if I'm the top player, on a team.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Isn't it most likely that I'm going to be that
guy or girl that's gonna get get most likely to
get the deal.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
I'm not so sure. You know, if you think about it,
it goes back to there's no I in team.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I understand that yet.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
But realistically, uh, you may have a stellar athlete, but
ultimately you know they're being compensated, not just they're being
compensated for not just.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Their uh.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Athletic prowess, but they're being compensated for their brand, that name,
image and likeness. And I say that because they have
to develop that brand, they have to develop a notoriety,
they have to develop a following, and I think that
that's where you're going to see certain student athletes stand
out and others fall behind. So even though you may
be the stellar athlete, you may have someone else who
(05:09):
is a supporting athlete, but he or she may be
able to develop a greater brand by virtue of how
they market themselves.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
I would argue that that's going to be the real
winners in this is the kids who and their parents
who understand how to market. Just because you're the star athlete,
that's not any guarantee that you're going to get any
money from this. There was a student that he just
graduated from South Charleston High School's name was and this
is what they call him, Missus Moniker online. His name
is a white boym and he has millions of millions
(05:40):
of you know, social media followers. So if he was
somebody who was playing in some sort of sport at
the high school, he would cash in and without necessarily
having to be the star. So I don't think it's
necessarily like you're the best player, so you're gonna get
the money. And I know who you're talking about, and
I could and I could justifiably say he would be
(06:02):
he was just good enough. But he was so known
and everybody recognized him. He would be the guy that
I would go to to talk to just because I
know he's gonna just through the school, just him being
in the school, he's going to be a person that's
going to bring me attention.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, And when you think about it, you've actually hit
the nail on the head. You know, all these businesses
that want to, you know, pay a student athlete to
promote their business using their brand. They want to have
a return on their investment. And that's going to involve
who can get the word out the best. You know,
as you indicated Hollis, you may be the best athlete,
(06:44):
but what if you're just a supporting athlete and you've
got a million followers. I'm not so sure I wouldn't
spend my money on that as opposed to you know,
just the stud quarterback.
Speaker 6 (06:56):
So so so, Paul, first of all, thank you so
much for helping us navigate these, uh, these new waters
that West Virginia's excuse me entering with with NIL. But
I read through the policy today some of the you know,
different pieces of it. In one part kind of you
mentioned this already, but you mentioned that student athletes may
(07:17):
not wear the appair or display the logo or identifying
mark of an NIL partner during any team activity. So
we're not just talking about like game day. Like so
let's say that they have this deal with you know,
some company, and they wear a shirt to practice or
meet the team, or there's a booster activity. What will
(07:38):
there be like ramifications for those activities as well, just
not just.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Game day the way I read it. And then please
understand this is all brand news. We'll surely we need
guidance from the W S, S A C. The reality is,
I'm not sure that I do think the way it's
written it would encompass those other activities even if you
had practices. I think that they're not allowed to bring
(08:02):
in who they're advertising for.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I say, I read it the other way. I thought
you couldn't like advertise it, like when you're doing these
endorsements and brand deals, you couldn't have the school's logo.
That's how that did I read it that. I thought
I read that that is one part. That's what's great. Okay,
maybe I missed out. Okay, So are we saying that
we can't we can't necessarily do the school, nor can
(08:27):
we do not during a school I don't think it
could be crossed over. So they have to be separate.
Speaker 6 (08:33):
This is the way I understood it. Right, during any
any type of school activity, you cannot promote your your
NIL partner.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So my so, my NIL partner is going to be
the person who's going to get me a signing. So
if I get a signing, I can't necessarily talk about
or where anything from the school.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
If I'm at the school and I'm performing, playing or anything,
I can't wear being in il donation or payment, I
can't show that company that is okay. So that's the
that's kind of the dividing piece. Yeah, that makes sense now,
(09:17):
and reading through the policy, I had two major issues
with the policy. Like I said earlier, I think the policies,
you know, it's thoughtful in that and it's a true
in I l it's not a pay for play as
we talked about earlier. But and we'll dress one at
a time. The first one is like, I don't understand
the thought behind allowing middle schoolers to do this. It
(09:42):
seems like way too early to start getting involved in
this sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
The point, you know, I think market forces will probably
decide whether or not middle schoolers will get anything. I'm
not sure they will. Yeah, you know, remember the businesses
or whoever spending the money does want some return on
their investment. They're not just you know, throwing their money away.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's a first and I guess my other problem, my
other issue with the with it is that the coaches,
they don't have any sort of say so. They they're
sort of xed out of this whole process. And again
I think that's good from the perspective that now you're
not going to have coaches, you know, playing quote unquote
middleman in between you know, a brand and you know,
(10:26):
maybe a player or something to that effect. But you know,
can coaches capitalize on this too? Shouldn't it be some
sort of say and you know, shouldn't something come through
the coach as far as.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Well, the way it's written, coaches and uh, school administrators
and everyone are not permitted to be involved in that.
And I think they were just trying to ensure that
they separated out to pay for play and truly go
with the brand and the student athletes name image and
like it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Is what it appears. And okay, so with that, I
would think, and Hollis, I'm curious about what you think
about this. If I'm a coach and let's say I
have maybe three two three players that I think could
fit this model, I would think that it would be
(11:21):
to your advantage to be able to talk to me
and have me now and this is not with my
kid being part of that mixture, but just me as
the coach and my players. And you come and you
want to be you want to do it, you want
to pay this guy, And I'm thinking, well, but Hollis,
is probably the guy that's going to be the more beneficial,
(11:43):
the more bang for your buck. I would like, I
would think that that would be something that would be
critical to have that conversation. It's almost like scouting without
talking to the coach. Yeah. I think the problem with
that though, is that if you get coaches in the
mix to that degree, then you're gonna have some hands
in the cookie jar and and coaches would now have
(12:05):
the power to sort of pull and and and you know,
shape in il deals, and that could get dicey. So
I so I understand the the bb S s a
c's policy in that it just seems like to totally
ex coaches out far as just like because I guess
as a coach, I would want to know at least, hey,
(12:27):
I would want to know kind of what you're involved
into a certain degree because I need to figure out
practice schedules, I need to figure out your timing. And
you're also going to have situations in which some kids
they don't really have any other advisors, they don't have
to your point, they don't have anybody else. And and
to confirm that we have a we have a mom
who is has her has her son in youth football today.
(12:51):
She knows nothing like how the helmet works, how the
shoulder pads work, what if that moves up and there's
an opportunity for that kid. Not saying she couldn't learn
the game, but now all of a sudden, you have
a parent who really doesn't even know what what the
(13:13):
game is. And and this is really not a legal
question more so than just hey, this is one of
those kind of situations that you could come up with
which could end up maybe being a disaster.
Speaker 6 (13:25):
I have to find a good friend, right, you know, Yeah,
I'm a good friend or family member that that knows
the game, or agent.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Agent, yeah, agent. But the reality is, I think lots
of times, if you think about it, most shodent athletes
and their parents rely on their circle of friends. And
I think that's where that's going to be more incumbent
than ever. It's gonna be very important.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So you're saying that because I know Hollis, Hollis May,
I'm going to go. I'm more likely to go to
Hollis and ask him what do you think about this situation?
Speaker 4 (13:58):
And he can give me the basically exactly. Yeah, And
you know, you go to Lisa, you go to halls.
I mean, both are very knowledgeable about sports, and they
can provide good guidance that's quote unquote unofficial guidance that
has no nothing that would jeopardize your ability to get
the nil money.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right, And I would think I would think that also
creates the need for having an attorney be in and
around that situation. That would to me, I would make
that that that makes the case that that's something that
would be extremely important if you really don't know when
you may not want to trust just calling me and saying, hey,
(14:37):
what do you think. I may think something, but you know,
I'm not going to think it through. Maybe more like
you may look.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
At it, I would look at it differently. And obviously,
you know all these student athletes were talking about they're
all minors, right, So realistically, not only do you have
a minor, you've also got to worry about the contractual
obligations and you have to have a parent or a
legal guardian sign off on for it to be valid. Right.
So we so it's not just I mean at the
(15:06):
high school and the middle school level, you there are
other issues that aren't really issues at the collegiate level.
Speaker 6 (15:13):
So I'm going to go a different direction, Paul, with
this policy. So I know that it's fluid and it's early,
and you know, this is it's going to take years
to really perfect, you know, what they want to get
out of this policy, of course, But one part of
it that I read a student for you know, if
they have some type of you know, infraction against what
(15:34):
they're allowed to do and not allowed to do, and
they lose their amateur status, they have to wait. They
have to wait a complete year, one complete high school
season before they can reapply for reinstatement. That's what I read.
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
I will just say that, I mean it is a fraction.
I think that that could be subject to litigation. Okay,
I see.
Speaker 6 (16:07):
What you're saying, because the interpretation of this is so
you know, we're not even sure.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
I mean, you're not even sure, you know.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
I mean we're asking questions and we're like, well, we
don't know because it hasn't happened yet. So you know
that that's a pretty stiff penalty for a student athlete
that's only in high school hoping to make it to
the collegiate level and they mess up and they break
a rule and somebody's you know, kind of out to
get them or whatever and report them to the w
v S S a C. Then they end up sitting
(16:34):
out a year because they wore a T shirt to
the wrong place.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
And what if they were a senior exactly?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yes, yes, yes, that's a yeah. I'm with you on
that one. Now, as far as like you know, expectations,
like you know, like I said we talked about earlier,
as far as getting some n I L deals, what
would be your advice to parents and student athletes to
say to maximize their opportunities while they're still in high
(17:05):
school and middle school?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
You know? To me, I think it's simple. Uh, Businesses
want to return on their investment, and businesses want to
associate with good students, good athletes, and those that are
not in trouble. And I say that and coaching can
probably attest to it. I'm sure in some of the
(17:28):
contracts you had there were morality clauses and if you
violated one of the morality clauses, you lost your your contracts.
Correct in this case, I think you're going to see
more and more of that. They're going to have morality clauses.
So things that we did as a kid, and I'll
tell you I was not perfect as a child and
(17:49):
I got into but the reality I think you're going
to see these student athletes. I think it's going to
help the parents and it's going to help the student
athlete recognize it. Look, maybe I should think before I
do this, And I think you may have some tangential
(18:12):
benefits out of this NIL because some of those student
athletes are going to think twice before they do something.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
And I think too, you know, you kind of emphasize
the parent also, because I think sometimes that parent who
has that talented kid who may be in line for
these opportunities, could all of a sudden because they think
that they're getting ready to get it. There's things that
(18:40):
they say, things that they do that they probably shouldn't.
They could end up being They could end up becoming
the reason why a kid could lose out on an
NIL deal, just simply because of how they handle themselves.
Because they think, Oh, I've got this kid, somebody's already
talking to him, we've got an attorney, we've got this
(19:02):
great deal, and you're saying all these things that you
might not be allowed to say. So I would think,
so if I'm a parent, where do I go to
get that information of what I can and can't do.
Is that something that they can get, Is it something
they're supposed to know or they got to figure it out?
How would they.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, I would hope that the WSSAC would open up
a kind of like a guidance email so that you
can send them an email or give them a call
so that you can get clarification. I would hope that
that would be part of the process as all this unravels.
If not, they can come seek professional advice. Obviously that
(19:44):
ultimately costs money, but the reality is there should be
a number of ways, And first and foremost, I hope
the s SAC opens up a guidance line, for lack
of a better some type.
Speaker 6 (19:57):
Of website or something that you.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Could go and where everybody and I know we talked
about earlier West Virginia being the forty fourth state to
implement high school and middle school NIL policies, and could
you just talk about the necessity of really having to
do this now, because I think we were at a
sort of at a breaking point where we could potentially
lose athletes to other states if we didn't well.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
So earlier this year I had a student athlete that
asked me to see what we can be what could
be done for nil at the legislature. We went and
unfortunately we were not successful with that, but at least
the momentum carried and it ultimately changed. And I raised
that issue because the West Virginia delegates and the West
(20:44):
Virginia senators that were on the border counties were the
ones that were most appreciative of the efforts and were
very much in support. And if you think about it,
why because if you have a stellar athlete at Huntington,
they could have gone to Kentucky, which at the time
didn't have it, now does Ohio, which already had it.
(21:07):
So West Virginia would have lost a stellar athlete. West
Virginia would have lost the positive press on a national basis.
And you know what, as much as our government has
told us that we don't have moneys and that we're
in the red, it'll help with the tax base because
guess what, when you make money, you gotta pay their taxes.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Are yeah, yeah, And I think for me that's sort
of a major point because we've seen a lot of
you know, athletes in the Huntington Cable County area sort
of jumped those borders. So it's definitely important that and again,
I know everybody doesn't like it, but I think it
was necessary. And I just applauded wv S SAC forgetting
it done now and not being fiftieth point.
Speaker 4 (21:51):
We're forty fourth.
Speaker 7 (21:54):
Here's what I kind of wonder about, though. You've got
all these online platforms, and now you've got all these
folks that have become influencers, who have got tens of thousands,
sometimes hundreds of thousands, even millions of followers. And yeah,
so they might be the stud of a football team
or on a basketball team or whatever. They might be
(22:16):
that star player, but they've also already got a following
that really has nothing to do with that. They just
happen to excel in a lot of different things. So
does that maybe create a little bit of a gray
area where you've got companies that have already been doing
brand deals with these people for their social media following
(22:36):
and it just so happens that they're also the star
player at such a certain school or what have you.
You know that are we just is that what maybe
brought us to why we need this in the first place,
is rather than just trying to skirt around and say,
oh no, no, you know, we've got a brand deal
with that kid because they've got a huge social media following.
It has nothing to do with them being a star athlete.
(22:59):
Just to tack this head on, say you know what
this kid is worth it, We're just gonna pay them
what they deserve.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
You know, I think it needed to be I think
it needed to be a tack head on. But you
made a good point. I think that would have been
in the gray area. When you have a student athlete
who's got a tremendous following, whether they're a stellar athlete
or not, those million followers, that's worth a substantial amount
of money to social media, and as a result, businesses
(23:26):
are willing to pay that. You see all these social
media influencers on TikTok and on Facebook and Instagram, and
the minute they get these followers, they put something out
everybody jumps on it.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm trying to figure out just in
this piece of the conversation, I'm thinking, Gosh, I can
think of a whole lot of guys in the NFL,
guys that I played college ball, if they were getting
paid for the influence that they had the following of
(24:02):
the audience. I mean, are we heading that direction?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
You look at the Gronk I mean you think about
his social media following, right.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, it's true, the baby Gronk kid.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Look at the reality is he developed an excellent branding
of himself and leveraged it.
Speaker 7 (24:22):
When you have to wonder two the Kelsey Brothers making
more money now with their new heights of podcasts than
they are playing on the NFL field, I mean probably,
And I think.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
That's one of the issues as well, because when you
talk a guy like like Paul George, for example, one
of his criticisms is that he'll go out play for
the seventy six is lay an egg and the next
day he's on his podcast and actually management, the coaches
made him actually stopped doing the podcast until you like
get it together. So one of the issues, again I've
(24:53):
talked about earlier, is that I think now we're in
this situation in which, and I think this is probably
gonna be more so on the parents. They're sort of
putting more emphasis on developing the brand than developing the
athleticism on the field and court.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
That's a you know, so, I mean there has to
be a balance. Yeah, And I and hollers. To your point,
I'm you know, I do we. I'm involved with youth sports,
and I had a peak at the middle school teams,
and I've had a peak at the high school. As
far as coaching, it's way easier, or at least it
(25:31):
seems way easier to get a following than it is
to become a great player. I don't know, you know.
And and but to your point, what can I just
go out there and and and and chase a following,
chase this image that I can create and I can
(25:53):
be the third string quarterback and I can make money.
The answer is yes, The answer is absolutely, And that
actually might be hilarious. Yes, you stream quarterback out there?
It Yeah, I mean because if you're looking at it
and you can say, okay, well, Hollis is better than me,
variants better than me. This is my gig.
Speaker 7 (26:14):
I'm getting.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
This is my gig. They out there chasing each other
trying to be a starter. You know what, I'll just
chase social media and I'll be funny and I'll make money. Yeah,
all right, cats the kittens? Have you heard?
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Now back to the conversation.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
Since we're talking about ANIL and are at one of
our other favorite subjects on this podcast, Paul is the
te transfer portal of course in the state, that's our
other one. So I read an article and Wayne Ryan,
who's the executive director of the w b SAC, had
made a comment and I just wanted to get your
thoughts on this. But he mentioned that if students couldn't
(28:19):
transfer for athletic reasons as freely as they can now,
this would not be as big of an issue the NIL.
So he's blaming a lenient transfer rule rather than the
other parts that we're discussing. Can you kind of ex
what do you think he means by that statement? Can
you expand on that.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
I'm really not sure what his thought process is. I
mean the transfer portal in it's a separate issue. It's
a separate issue. And also you only allowed one free transfers,
right right, right, right, is what they've put into their
rules and REGs, even though the legislature, by the way,
had had it said different. They said, at least one
(29:04):
the wording in the statutes different than what w S
s AC is embodied.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
So and I think, go ahead. I'm sorry, yeah, And
I was saying to Lisa's point, there are there is
a mention in the policy that you cannot transfer strictly
for nil in the policy right.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Right, But but I want to, you know, maybe go back.
And you know, I know Lisa comes from an awesome background.
She was a former teacher. And you know we've we've
said and if you've noticed, I've said a number of times,
it's a student athlete. So nil, they're looking at nil
for amateur status. We have to look at it also
(29:46):
from a different perspective. What if you have a good
chess player for you know, good point and or what
if you have someone that's on a robotics team and
there's an attorney in towns front of mine, his son
is competed nationally in these robotic competitions with his team.
(30:06):
What about them? What if all of a sudden you
got Elon Musk who decides, you know what, I like
that team and I need to spawn.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
What is that?
Speaker 4 (30:15):
And think about that also?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
I mean the spelling Bee champ. I would imagine as
far as like in middle schools particularly, there's probably no
bigger start athletically otherwise.
Speaker 6 (30:24):
Than like this extracurricular than it is.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
It's athletic.
Speaker 6 (30:29):
I mean, it can be athletic, but it can also
be extracurricular, right, I mean.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Well, ws SAC is West Virginia Secondary Schools Activities Commission activities,
so it embodies more.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
I was going to say, what's crazy about that? Nobody
thinks that when you hear that you automatically go to
a sport. You don't think. No, there's nothing about that
makes me think academics. But now that you say that,
I mean, I would think that maybe those kids might
even have a bigger opportunity I think, so you know
(31:02):
what I mean, Like I said, could you look at
like the spelling b champion that's a nationally televised event,
and if you're the champ of the spelling being for
seventh grade. Think about the sponsorship and promotional opportunities that
may be there for commercials nationally, local and otherwise.
Speaker 7 (31:17):
Well, and even activities like music or the arts, for example,
marching band, show choir. All of that is also dictated
by the rules of the wv S SAC.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And what's interesting about that is that that's something that
we don't necessarily look at. At least I'm gonna make
the case maybe I'm stereotyping me and you, Hollis, but
that we don't consider part of the s SAC. I
think most people don't. Most people are looking at athletics,
and I would think in sports, yeah, yeah, for sure,
(31:51):
everything is quota team sport. But when you start mentioning
these other things, I actually like that even better than
I to with with the sport. But that brings up
an interesting point too, because the fact of the matter
is like the way again, I like how the policy
was written, but it's also written in a manner that
(32:12):
you really because you can't mention your accolades, whether it
be in the activity or on you know, the field
or court. It almost creates a situation in which you
really can't use how good you are in these things.
It really is like you have to be a brand
outside of the sport. Even because I can't mention that
(32:33):
I'm the quarterback for South Charleston High. I can't mention
that I'm the captain of the chess team for this
particular school. So the way it's written now that I'm
thinking about it, it almost makes it even a little
bit harder to capture that nil the strictly based off
how good I am at this particular activity in sport.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
And you know, you raise a good point because it
is your brand, name, image and likeness is your brand.
You know, if you look back and going back to sports,
many of you remember EA Sports they had that college
football and they had that game. They discontinued, I believe
in around twenty eleven. It's back now it is back,
(33:15):
and why because now they're paying the student athletes because
in the past they weren't and it was their brand.
Remember the student athlete's name wasn't on. Yeah, it had
their number and it had their statistics, but that's still
their brand, and those student athletes should be compensated for it,
and they have to develop that brand, I guess in
(33:36):
parallel to their athletic achievement, And I.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Guess that's my point. It seems like it's going to
be difficult, Like I said, if you just the start,
like if you don't necessarily have big social media following
all that other things, it seems like it's going to
be difficult to really cash in on the NIL without
letting the audience and the people know. Hey, I'm the
star quarterback of here, I'm the captain of the basketball team.
I play tennis here. Do you see what I'm saying.
(34:01):
I knew because the EA sports example that you used,
it's that quarterback, that left tackle, that defensive back in
association with that school brand. So there'll become one.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
But you know, Uh, I went to g W and
graduated a couple of years ago. When we got when
we graduated, uh my, this will date me uh my
junior year we won the UH Triple A football championship.
And I will tell you everybody in town knew uh.
And we all read the mine who was his uh,
(34:36):
who was the star quarterback, who was a junior who's
in my class? And everybody knew uh. The star running
back and the wide receiver. Everybody knew their name.
Speaker 6 (34:45):
He didn't have to advertise.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
He didn't have to. He didn't have to, but I
recognized him because you know they were in the back.
Then everybody read the newspaper. So you know, Saturday morning,
everybody's reading all the articles that the Gazettes got put
out and they're talking about the statistics, and they got
their names in there. So everybody stay wide because of
the coverage, was automatically getting their brand, their brand being developed.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Now now, okay, so I guess I'm saying this like,
if we're talking about developing that brand. If to your point,
if I have these million or so followers online, part
of probably me getting that in addition to if I
have seen any sort of special talents, I'm funny, whatever.
If I'm posting my highlights, right so, if I'm posting
my highlights from whatever sport of activity that I'm involved with,
(35:33):
part of that may be enticing to a brand to
want to work with me based on that. But yet
I can't say that I could say, hey, I'm a quarterback.
I can't say that I'm the quarterback here. And to
your point earlier, now, when you're talking online, it's national,
so they may not know you in association. You know
(35:58):
far as what particularly you're.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
Doing, I do, and I think you know. For example,
if the student athlete wants to post on their own
social media highlights from the game, if they get it,
they're allowed to have it, then by all means they
should be able to post it. I don't think that
affects the nil and the reason is is because nobody's
paying for that that's on their own social media. But
(36:21):
the minute they get paid for a promotion, that's where
I think the restriction comes into place. Remember, student athletes
are posting that all the time so that they can
get college scholarships. Yeah, they're trying to you know, develop
their their athletic prowess and advertise that, but that's not
to a specific person that's paying for it.
Speaker 7 (36:40):
Well, this is probably why it's so important for the
players that are good are going to be the ones
that are going to get the name recognition from the
folks that West Virginia Matron is.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
HD media house getting it.
Speaker 7 (36:52):
They're getting the recognition, so their name's getting put out
there just because the media is doing what it naturally
does and picks it up, and their name is up
every week because you know, they're doing whatever on the
field or what have you there, right, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
And hopefully winning the national Aeronautical something. Yeah, is picking
it up.
Speaker 6 (37:13):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
And so I have in my mind I was thinking
as Hollis was talking, and I was thinking about Robert Alexander,
who you know, we all know has passed away, and
he was kind of the guy who got me into
you know, the workouts and all that kind of stuff
and really had a huge impact on my career. His
(37:37):
his name and likeness and everything at that time was
not just it wasn't just local, it was literally nationally
you know him. And again I'll go to Kurt Warner,
who you're talking about two guys who were the best
back in the nation. So now none of their football
(37:58):
stats really matter, but what their attention, what attention they
are getting the most, because that's why you that's okay,
yeah if the okay, but okay, so you could have
the stats, but maybe if you're not getting these, so
let's just say Robert and k and Kurt. I think
(38:22):
I think Robert got more attention than Kurt regardless of
who was the best, because he went to West Virginia
and all of that kind of conversation. Kurt got the
negativity for going to Penn State. But to that point,
their talent. While it got them a scholarship, it doesn't
(38:44):
necessarily mean that they're popular to the people or they're
publicly positive publicly negative. Does that make sense?
Speaker 6 (38:55):
Like them have social media back then. That's why I'm
completely different.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
But I that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying
to put that in in today. So let's say Roberts
had some negativity about him, Kurt had positive for himself.
Regardless of who you thought was the best, Kurt is
likely going to be the get the most attention. I
(39:20):
guess what I'm saying is this, Like, for example, if
I have an amazing game, and in that game, I
have an amazing play, I have one of them plays
that's on the top ten of the Friday Night Lights. Right,
I mean I have an absolute play. Right, I cannot
use that play even though if I post it on
(39:41):
my social media, that play may get millions of hits
on mine, it can get millions hits on the WCHS,
Metro News, he can get hits all over the platform,
he can go viral. I can't use that play in
order to capitalize on the nil deal. Like, so, I
think that if you the way it is written, and
it's so far separate that I think it's going to
(40:03):
make it hard for somebody who does not have the
personality to brand themselves in a way that's going to
capture millions of people online. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 6 (40:13):
Well, what.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
The attorney is.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Looking at here, what I'm thinking is no, I'm thinking,
you know what, you need to call my office tomorrow.
We need we need to find money for you from
Friday night.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
So that that's the other part of it. So that's
the other part of it. So now if these other
news outlets post this amazing highlights and they're monetizing their
sites off of and I could direct the hey this
got ten million using you may x amount of money.
I need a cut of that now. But the way
the policy is written, I can't get a cut of that.
(40:50):
So it's like I can't use my athletic prowess to
get money. It's only about if I'm goofy online. Does
that make sense?
Speaker 6 (40:59):
Well, we talked about this and we were waiting to
come on Paul and Carl and Hollis was on his way.
But anyway, we were talking about like, now that we
have this in place and they're able to be paid
for their brand. Like let's say you know what he
was saying, HD Media or you know RSN Sports wants
to interview this star athlete.
Speaker 4 (41:21):
It is a we.
Speaker 6 (41:22):
The athlete can appropriately ask for compensation, correct, I mean
they can say for a fee. I can be they
don't have to, but they can right.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
Right now, That's that's an area that's a gray area. Okay,
theoretically they can. But if you recall, like coach will
be able to test to this you know what, and
part of those contracts they were required to speak to
the media and ws SAC can say, you know what.
To be able to participate, you need to speak with them.
Speaker 6 (41:49):
But they haven't done that yet. You haven't done that yet,
so that could be something that could happen, right theoretically,
I just like.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I said, I like the policy because it is a
true ni L because you're not actually getting just money
handed to you. But I think the policy is is
a little flawed in that I should be able to
use my highlights, I should be able to use my
status as you know, chess player, quarterback, roboties club, whatever,
in order to get those in IL deals as well.
(42:17):
So I think that's just I agree with that. I
agree with that because at the end of the day,
what how I'm thinking I want to as an athlete,
I'm thinking how I need to market myself. I'm thinking
I'm marketing myself as an as an athlete because it
prevents you from being doing goofy stuff online, preventing that,
(42:38):
you know what I'm saying. I'm just saying, if you're
not that tight, that's because some key to are you know, serious,
and they're not with the goofy stuff online. They're strictly
online to say, hey, this this is the rest I got.
This is I'm this sort of athlete, I'm this sort
of family kid. So now those kids may not be
(42:59):
able to get those same opportunities and looks. There's one.
Speaker 7 (43:05):
Think of Michael Jordan, for example, that is the Nike
Air Jordan brand. He never ever wore anything that actually
was NBA branded Chicago Bulls. In all those commercials, it
was just Jordan and the Nike Air Jordan's stuff. And
I think that's kind of.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, sort of what you're trying to we we we
don't bring his air in this.
Speaker 7 (43:28):
Conversations level, but on that professional level, even on that
high level, I mean, you're still separating that out between
the player versus the league.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
So let me I'm going to ask the from from
the comments you heard me, do you think there's gonna
be as we flushed this out in years to come?
Do you think there's gonna be room for those sort
of adjustments and to rethink it.
Speaker 4 (43:53):
I think there's I think this is great starting point.
I think the S S, S, S A C should
be applauded for and taken the step. I do think
it's going to take a number of years to finally
flush out and figure out after the dust settles, what
the final rules are going to look like. I think
it's I think this is a starting point. This is
not the end. But you know, back if I could
circle back, everybody was talking about the difference between you know,
(44:17):
the athletic and then the branding. I think it's separate,
but I also think it goes hand in hand. And
I'll let me give you a good example. Everybody at
this table, and I bet everybody that would listen to
this show, and most people nationally prior to social media,
there was a guy that played football at W his
name was Major Hairs. He developed a brand nationally without
(44:43):
ever once using social media. He developed it with his
superior athletic abilities and you know his ability to try
to win the game. And that just goes to show
you can brand yourself using social media, but you also
have the ability to just brand yourself quote unquote on
the field.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
But who can we say, and we're talking local, not
anybody from anywhere else, who can we say in the
past ten years, from high school to college within the
state of West Virginia has had that sort of Randy Moss,
Robert Alexander, Major Harrison impact. Who can we say, who
can we name ten years?
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Okay, so he's twelve.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Years years. Because I'm talking about in the middle of
the social media area. Who can we say they had
that national level impact? Because we could probably name some
some some guys who had it just off their social
media stuff. But I'm talking pure, pure ball that had
(45:47):
a national impact. Hollis Lewis No, I mean, I don't.
I don't. I don't think in the last ten years.
I don't think college, high school.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
Who if I could intern Jack, I mean, it may
not be a name that everybody here would recognize but
there was a Marshall goalie on the national championship team
Paola and he ended up getting some great contracts.
Speaker 6 (46:13):
Okay, that's what That's a perfect example what you were saying.
People typically go to football and basketball. They don't go
to those Yeah, those other sports.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
And and to my flaw, I was going to add
you to it, but I'll just keep it on my own.
To my flaw, like like those types of sports, like
I wouldn't necessarily know that names, you know, because that
wouldn't be somewhere where I would think to look. And
when you start to open that window, I mean there's
(46:44):
there could be you know, there could be a golfer
there could you know, there could be a volleyball player.
I mean, there could be a ton out there that
have that quote star power along with the game. That
could be that could easily fall into this window. And
(47:05):
I and I guess what I'm saying is like I
think it's my point is just that I think it's
more difficult to have that same star payer power now
than it is in yesteryear. And I think it's even
more difficult when we're saying you can't basically mention your athleticism. Well,
I don't know. I think it. I actually think it's
easier because I think it's not. I think I think
(47:26):
it is because you can't one. You can't name one.
But I'm I'm everybody. Everybody knew Randy Moss, everybody knew
Major Harris, whether you was a fan or not. You
can't name one because it's more crowded.
Speaker 6 (47:42):
Depend on their success too in the sport and and
their teams success because Major Harris he took the team
to the national championship that year. Correct, so that one year.
But but yeah, it I think it. I'm like Carl,
I'm kind of team Carl here. I think that I
would think it would be easy.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
It's not because you can't name one. We can name
Lexis Hornbuckle renamed Montgomery. That's outside of the ten year window.
We can name a bunch of people, but we can
within the last ten year could because it's so crowded,
you can't. Really there's not a one that just jumps
off the page that nationally.
Speaker 7 (48:18):
Everybody everybody's highlights her on YouTube. Now social media has
equalized it.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Well, I'm gonna say, okay, to your point about everybody
being on YouTube, or somewhere. We can sit in the
room and we may not know, but there may be
some folks out there that know people who I ain't
talking about them I'm talking about in this room.
Speaker 6 (48:50):
No, I just have one more thing, and I just
want Paul's opinion. We've talked all about, you know, these
different aspects of this and I policy, and so when
I read through it, there was one piece that said
compensation for giving private lessons is permissible if approved by
the W E, S, S a C. Now do you
(49:13):
feel like that's and this is personal and this isn't
your your law degree speaking. Don't you think that's kind
of outside the lines of ni L When you think
about giving private lessons and who would be the one
who would decide? Would they have a special committee? Like
you U said, I'm going to give this kid lessons
and football? Why are going to go in front of
the committee and make sure it's okay? I mean, what's
(49:34):
your opinion of that?
Speaker 4 (49:35):
Pomp personal opinion?
Speaker 6 (49:36):
You're personal, not law, not law, your Paul.
Speaker 4 (49:39):
Okay, So so my personal opinion is, first of all,
the teacher is the only one that came in with
notes and keeps asking.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Me these pop questions.
Speaker 9 (49:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
There because teacher, you should have given me my reading
before I ride. This is a personal thing.
Speaker 6 (49:58):
This isn't anything. This is actually part of it. I
mean I read the policy and this was this was
a piece of it. And I'm like, this is kind
of out of the lines. I mean, do we really
need that. I mean, I think I understand what they're
trying to do, but that kind of goes above and beyond.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
I think it goes above and beyond. Yes, I don't
think it's a part of nil. And by the way,
I also fundamentally, this is me speaking. They need not
review the contracts. I have no problem if they want
to review the contracts as long as they post every
person wvss AC salary.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
Oh yeah, I want to.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
I want to know what every one of them makes.
But if they want to know what my client makes,
I got no problem because it's for his brand, not
for athletics. It's not for his activities. So I got
no problem. But then let's just post it on their website.
Every salary needs to be posted.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
I like that. I would like this is you're right
my alley, Okay, I would like to have like, let's
talk about this publicly. Let's let's sit down and have
this discussion of why you came to this. I don't
care who voted for it and who didn't, But tell
(51:08):
me the conversation in which you had to make you
think this is good or this is bad. That's my
problem is, like I'm not sure that they're always right
on some of the policies that they create. As an athlete,
you know that has played the game. I don't know
(51:28):
who's really all on that board. I don't know if
you've got a ton of athletes, you got one, you
got none. I have no idea who's there, So I can't.
So it's hard for me to say when you make
a judgment on something that you made the right one
or the wrong one because I don't know, Like I
don't know who you I don't know where you're I
(51:49):
don't know where your background is, I don't know where
you got Like this takes to me, This takes some
really thought provoking kind of of talk to to get
to it, Like you as an attorney, like you're looking
at this in a way they did they use your
(52:10):
thought process to get to where they are. I don't
think so. I think it's I don't either. I think
it's like, no, I just don't agree with that. I
just don't like it.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Well, if you recall, before we came on the air,
I talked about one thing that I propose they should
do that they didn't do, which is I think they
should have had financial training planning for the student athletes
prior to being eligible for a contract, which would be good. Now,
who can say there's anything wrong with that? I mean
(52:38):
that's ed. First of all, education as a whole. I
got teacher next to me. It's always promoted. There's nothing
wrong with learning more. But to educate these student athletes.
You know, let's say you do have even if it's
not a super stud Let's say you have a student
athlete that gets twenty five thousand dollars. Okay, what's here
or is she going to do with it? First, thing's
(53:00):
got to pay taxes. She's got to pay taxes. Well,
what do you do with the balance? Well, I'm not sure.
Well they have they have no concept, and I think
that's where that training should have been implemented as a
part of this policy. That way, they have to take
some class. And by the way, it's not I would
like to say it's a novel approach, and Paul Sluca
(53:22):
came up this idea. It's not that other states have
already done that, and so I'd read and I thought
it would be great for them to embody it here
as well.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
All right, well, well what can they find you at,
Paul if they want to, if they have more questions,
they want to get consultation.
Speaker 4 (53:38):
Absolutely, they can call my office anytime. Three zero four
seven five five one one zero one.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Give it to them again, justin Gates.
Speaker 4 (53:44):
Three zero four seven five five one one zero one.
Speaker 2 (53:47):
All right, there you go, ladies and gentlemen. So if
you're looking for somebody, there's a number. Hollis. I don't know.
I think we were somewhat close today. We were something
much closer to that we were. We were, like I said,
and again, just to clarify, I think this is a
great idea. I'm glad West Virginia took the step, but
(54:08):
I think there are some things going to have to
be cleaned up in the future, because we want to
make sure in my mind that n I L is
about your performance on the field and not just you
trying to be goofy or do something dangerous online to
get attention right. That is that is that is scary
because somebody is going to somebody if it's not my
performance on the field, it's who I am off the field.
(54:31):
That's a that's a that's a that's a risky thing.
Speaker 6 (54:34):
I think it's a great policy. I agree with Hollis
and and you know, I think it's going to have
to be tweaked. You know, there's going to be growing
pains with this. You're going to have issues come up
that people are going to question parts of it and
test it even but you know, in the long run,
we had to do it. It's just a pure and
simple it had to be done well.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I mean it was, it was, It was I was
actually hoping that we didn't get here, but but we don't.
There was really no choice. Yeah, I mean at this point,
would you say, we're forty forty four, so deadline we
waits around. It's too so Kentucky, Ohio, and I think Virginia, Maryland.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
Kentucky was the last and around took at Ohio, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
All of them were doing yeah we Yeah, you had
no choice. You were losing your chance to lose kids there. Yeah,
so all right, ladies and gentlemen. We appreciate you being
with us today and we will be back again next week.
Speaker 3 (55:30):
Let's Talk with Carl Lee as presented by Attorney Frank
Walker and the all new historic Choyr Diner. Come in
on episodes, ask the crew questions or suggest topic. On
our Facebook page, search forard Let's Talk with Carl Lee,
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(55:51):
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