Episode 298 - The De Gruchy Family Murders (1996) - Weird Crap in Australia

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
A strange, spiraling white light wasspotted in the early morning sky over Sydney,
with even skeptical witnesses wondering if itwas a UFO. They were last
seen on the beach with a tallman and that's the best description police have
ever had of it. More thanseventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy A Beach, hiswidow has finally revealed his last romantic words

(00:22):
docky, terrifying, mesmerizing. That'sthe way a number of Australians have described
the alleged encounter with the YOWI.It's time for the Weird Crap In Australia
podcast. Welcome to the week CrapIn Australia Podcast. I'm your host,

(00:46):
Matthew sol this is episode two hundredand ninety eight, and I am,
of course joined up buying co hostand researcher Extraordinary Holy Soul. Hey,
how are you doing today, Holly? I'm good. How are you doing?
Not too bad? Well, Imean as good as you can before
you're about to do another murder that'sRyan, you heard it here. First,

(01:07):
we're doing another episode on murder andMayhem and I would say this fits
into the creategory of a little unofficialseries that we've gone through called not really
enough evidence to convict yet a convictionwas wrought anyway, secondstance does not equal
evidence, So we're going to talkabout that from this time, probably from

(01:30):
the perspective of I'm pretty sure theperson did it, however, was there
enough evidence to convict them for thecrime. So we're going to go through
the case of the mcgruchi family annihilation. We'll see what you think at the
end. Take it away, Holly. In nineteen ninety six, a small

(01:53):
middle class family lived on Sheerwater Boulevardin Albion Park Rail, Wollongong. They
were the Dagrucci family, consisting ofWayne and Jennifer and their three children,
Matthew, Sarah and Adrian. Thefamily were close with their extended brethren and
with Jennifer talking to her brother andmother more than once a week most weeks,
and Wayne's staying with his father whenhe was on business trips in Sydney.

(02:15):
Wayne was gone one in every threeweekends, leaving Jennifer to parent their
children on her own. On TuesdayMarch twelve, nineteen ninety six, Matthew
approached his mother about borrowing the carso he could see his girlfriend that night.
She lived about thirty kilometers away,and he wanted to stay the night
with her. Unfortunately, this wouldtake the only family car away while Wayne

(02:37):
was in Sydney, and Jennifer couldn'tafford it if her son didn't come home
in time for her to go towork in the morning. The request was
denied and an argument began. Doyou remember being a sixteen seventeen year old
and being told that you can't gosomewhere even though you have the technical ability
to do it. Nope, finallyenough. No reason for that is my
parents had, you know, Ithink a pretty reasonable rule, which was

(03:00):
we're allowed to go to a coupleof parties a year. That meant we
weren't going out to a party everysingle weekend. So that meant you picked
your parties wisely based on which onesyou thought would be the best, so
you didn't feel like you were missingout because it was your choice. You
see the other one, as faras traveling around when you live in a
small town, if I wanted towalk to my girlfriend's place thirty k's away,

(03:23):
I could, you know, wetake you all night, but you
could do it. I don't know, not that much, not really that
long any kys. Yeah I supposeso. But yeah, it's like you're
in a small town. Everyone wasin pretty close proximity with each other.
You know, you could walk fromone side of Tuma to the next in
little under an hour, so itwasn't really that difficult. So no,

(03:46):
I don't relate to this guy inthat way. And when I was his
age too, I didn't have agirlfriend, so it didn't matter anyway.
Also, unfortunately, when you livein a small town, if you're the
big fucking nerd, it's just it'sPickens Pickens, bi shlim in that sort
of situation. And most of thegirls I was interested in were dating twenty

(04:10):
five year old guys anyway, whichis now quite problematic, and it should
have been quite problematic back then too, but we didn't really have these type
of arguments. I know, Mumbought my brother a car when he got
his p's so that she didn't haveto have these arguments with him. That's
about as close as my family endedup with rich rich family over there,

(04:30):
rich rich family. He bought athird or fifth hand Volkswagon that he literally
had to strip down and rebuild beforegrandfather would let him get off his l
plates. Mine was a HIGHNDEXL.But did you literally have to rip everything
out clean and put it back together. No, but I did have to.
It was a matter of like replacingside mirrors and all that sort of

(04:55):
fun stuff. But they were greatlittle cars. They were like with a
screwdriver, you could pretty much fixanything on those things, including the ignition.
They rolled, baby, they rolled. Matthew de Grucci eventually left the
house at ten pm, heading forhis girlfriend's place and driving his mother's car.
Now we have a quote. Matthewhad been at home on his account

(05:15):
and until approximately ten pm when heleft my car to go to his girlfriend's
house. The evidence of his girlfriendwas that he arrived at her place between
eleven and eleven thirty pm. Hisgirlfriend's mother gave evidence that he arrived at
about eleven pm. He arrived laterthen expected, and he explained his failure
to arrive at his girlfriend's house inless than an hour on the basis that

(05:38):
his girlfriend and her mother had goneto bed, with the result that he
was delayed until he found a noteon a side door telling him to go
in quote from Dagruci versus the Queen, two thousand and two, New South
Wales Supreme Court, nineteen ninety six, no mobiles. You can't ring up
saying hey, open the door forme. You either bang on the window
risk annoying the shit out of yourgirlfriend's mum, or you just try every

(06:00):
door until you find one that opens, and if they know you're coming,
you should be able to just openit. It shouldn't take you an hour,
hour and a half to drive thirtyk's and then find your way into
a house. It's interesting, though, that the entire pointlessness of this,
You know, I want to goover to my girlfriend's house. She's already
asleep. It's eleven o'clock at night. And I think it speaks somewhat too

(06:21):
de Grucci's character a little bit inthis regard. She was asleep, mother
was asleep. He wouldn't be ableto go over there till ten pm.
We're talking sixteen seventeen year old kids. Anyway, sounds like a bit of
a wrap bag, just someone whojust does not want to be told what
to do any way, shape orform. His girlfriend, Alissa Brindley and

(06:41):
her mother, Gail Ate breakfast withDegroucci before sending him off home at about
eight am so he could get thecar home in time for his mother to
go to work. Yeah. Seethis is interesting too, like the sitting
around delaying, knowing full well thatthe reason he couldn't have the car in
the first place was that could havecaused this issue. And then they both
had to be like, it's timefor you to go home. Please.

(07:02):
Your mother is waiting for your car, waiting for the car so she can
go to work. Can you pleasemove? Dagrucci drove home with plenty of
time to hand his mother the car. He walked in the front door between
eight thirty and eight forty am.On his account, he walked through the
house and retrieved his wallet, whichhad been left near the goola. He
went out and brought cigarettes and thenreturned to the house, wrote from Degruci

(07:26):
versus the Queen, two thousand andtwo New Southwest Supreme Court. Unless those
cigarettes were for his mother, shedefinitely would not have been happy with him
doing that. Yeah, see that'sthe other. Like again, you know,
two people have said, come on, Matt, it's time for you
to go home. You got toreturn your car to your mum. So
he gets home and then turns around. It's like, eh, you know

(07:46):
what, I'm also going to jumpback in the cargo, buy some cigarettes
and then come back again. Thehouse was quiet and nothing seemed to be
moving. When he got back fromhis cigarette run, he went looking,
walking through the house, turning lightson and calling for mother. He turned
the light on in her bedroom tofind a horrible sight. Jennifer Degrucci's mother
was found in her bedroom, layingamong the sheets on her bed. She

(08:09):
had been beaten so badly that herbrain had been forced from her skull.
Police believer a sledgehammer was used tobeat her to death, while a pillow
was placed over her face. Shewas unrecognizable. Blood match samples had to
be used to make a formal identification. Quote from the New Tasmanian Devil,
Matthew Degrucci massacred his family a dotw Naves at thirteenth of September twenty twenty

(08:31):
one. Dagrucci stumbled back and outof the house, sobbing. In one
interview, he claimed to have goneinto Sarah's room looking for his sister.
In another, he denied looking intohis sister's room at all. What he
did do, however, was runfor a neighbor seeking help. He spoke
to a neighbor, mister Bailey,who gave evidence that Degrucci told him that
there was something wrong with mum andSarah missed, yeah, you know,

(08:54):
terrible headaches. Mister Bailey further gaveevidence that Degrucci was in a very distress
state and that he mister Bailey,did not observe any blood or injuries on
him. Quote from d'grucci versus theQueen in two thousand and two near South
Wales Supreme Court. Mister Stephen Baileylived in the house opposite the Degrucci residence
and was on relatively good terms withthe family. It was the nineteen nineties.

(09:18):
Everyone knew everyone else. He didn'tunderstand what Degrucci was saying. The
boy was sobbing so much, andso he stepped into the house thinking that
maybe someone had fallen and they neededhelp. When he saw what had happened,
he ran from the house as well. The police were immediately called and
they arrived shortly after, warned bythe neighbor of the state of the bodies,
but they still weren't prepared. DoctorCarlor, the forensic pathologist who attended

(09:41):
the scene and later conducted the postmortems, said that the ferocity of the
attacks upon the deceased persons were somarked that they produced injuries of the kind
ordinarily only suffered in collisions at highspeed between motor vehicles or in an aircraft
crash. A police officer who examsand the scene, Sergeant Smith, became
so distressed that he was that hehas never worked a day since as a

(10:05):
police officer. Quote from Degriucci versusthe Queen, two thousand and two,
New South Wales Supreme Court. Thenthat's followed with this quote here from The
New Tasmanian Devil. Another former homicideinvestigator, Belinda Neil, got called to
the scene on her very first dayon the job. She said it was
the worst murder she'd seen in herfour year career and contributed heavily to her

(10:26):
early retirement from the force. Thestate of the victim's bodies was horrendous,
with comparisons made to plane crashes,car crashes, and industrial accidents, so
rare and brutal that the police thoughtit a blessing to have never dealt with
one before the first victim to befound after Jennifer was of course, Sarah.
Sarah was also found in her bedwith catastrophic injuries to her head and

(10:50):
face. Like her mother, pillowhad been placed over her head while she
was bludgeoned. It was a walkmanfound next to her in bed. Police
believed she had been listening to musicbefore she was attacked, which was likely
the reason she hadn't heard what washappening to her mother in another bedroom,
But it appeared she had seen herattacker approaching and attempted to defend herself,
so there were defensive bruises on herarms. S wrote from The New Tasmanian

(11:13):
Devil. Her head was also destroyedunder the pillow, hit by the same
object as her mother. Adrian wasnot in his bed when the police went
looking for him and the house wassearched. You like to spend time in
the garage working on his carpentry skills, and March twelve had not been an
exception. Adrian was found outside hadbeen repairing a chair in a garage she

(11:35):
commonly used to do woodwork. Itappeared he had been initially attacked from behind
with a heavy blunt object while hewas working on the chair. It was
blood on the ceiling and a numberof his teeth on the floor. He
had been struck violently about the headand neck between twenty to thirty times and
doused in petrol. In his handwas a clump of blood soaked hair was
initially thought to be that of hisattacker, who was later believed to have

(11:58):
been transferred there from the same weaponbeing used in early attacks on Sarah and
Jennifer quote from The New Tasmanian Devil. Police attention turned to who could possibly
have committed this horrible act. Theinvestigation began even as Degruci sat in an
ambulance being treated for shock. Thefirst police officers to respond were Constables Williams
and Pepper. Constable Williams described theappellant as being very upset and distressed.

(12:24):
Constable Pepper said the appellant was lyingface down on the ground, very distraught.
Another neighbor, Lawrence Billet, alsonoticed the appellant lying face down on
the ground and sobbing. Mister Gravey, an ambulance officer, described the appellant
as being upset and crying. Anotherambulance officer said that he was very upset
and distressed, so much so thatthe ambulance officers decided to take him to

(12:45):
Shell Harbor Hospital. Vote from d'gruchiversus the Queen eighth of August two thousand
and two, New South Wales SupremeCourt. When the police first walked into
the house, there was stuff throwneverywhere. There was I think there was
a window broken. There was allkinds of signs made up out to be
that this was a robbery, butit became quickly obvious that this was not
the robbery it was presented. Aswell. They noticed a few things had

(13:07):
gone missing, such as they're beingdust on a cabinet from where a gaming
hon solid gone missing, the missingpurses, stuff like that. There was
still a lot of valuable items leftin the house, including the children's wallets
and including matthews, which he claimedto have left outside on the pagola.
So I'll put on my sherlock hat, my dear stalker. Let's assess our

(13:30):
crime scene as we have done somany times, so so many times.
Keep in mind, I'm an amateur. I'm not professional in any way,
shape or form. It's just youstart to see patterns when you look at
all of these different cases. Soare we looking at a serial killer.
Possibly likelihood not because there are threevictims in one place. Three victims in
one place. The one that sortof pushes me towards the direction of someone

(13:58):
the Degrucci's knew is the fact thatthe other brother was able to be found
in the garage. Now I'm arandom serial killer. I've broken into this
house. I see two people sittingin their beds. My weapon of choice
is a sledgehammer, which is notnecessarily the first go to for a serial

(14:20):
killer. It could also have beenfound a found weapon as well, which
serial killers generally, when they're goingto approach potential victims, have a weapon
with them already. Right, SoI've gone in with my sledgehammer. Let's
call me the sledgehammer killer. Ihappen to come across two people. I
dispatched them very quickly. There's nosign of sexual assault as well. Now,

(14:43):
not every single serial killer will commitacts of sexual assault, but many
do, so I'm just in itfor the kills. I've dispatched both people.
Then at random chance, I've seenthe light under the garage. Maybe
I've heard woodworking tools. Now,as a serial killer who's entered a home,

(15:05):
I have to make a few quickdecisions here. Now do I open
that garage and let the person knowthat I'm in their home. They're surrounded
by tools, which means they havea lot of potential weapons, and most
likely at this point in time,it's a little bit different these days,
but we're talking nineteen ninety six.Here is this person potentially a big,

(15:26):
strong man who could fight back.Yeah, Adriam was fourteen. Let's remember
this, you know, but thisis a serial killer, you know,
assessing a situation. So I'm goingto go against trend. I'm going to
go against safety. I'm going toopen that door. I'm going to continue
my killing spree. I've probably beenvery gratified with what I've done, and

(15:48):
then I'm going to disappear off intothe night with my sledgehammer. And then
the supposed sledgehammer killer of this examplenever returns again at all, just you
know, disappears into the night andnever goes after another victim decides to put
down their sledgehammer and live a normallife for the rest of their days.
It's a very unlikely scenario, butyou know, I'm not going to say

(16:12):
that it's not possible. What ismore likely is someone who knew these people
and they knew exactly where to findthem on that night. What gives it
away, at least from my perspective, having written co written a lot of
terrible murder things with Holly and youknow, gone through this process quite a

(16:37):
few times now, I would saythat it's more likely that it was knowing
that Adrian would be in that garage. And if the assailant knew that Adrian
would be in that garage, thenhe has fore knowledge of Adrian. Otherwise,
it's all very very random, andwe never hear of the return of
the sledge hammer killer. So youknow, I'm leaning at this point that

(17:00):
it is someone who is known tothe family, and they're also you know,
dispatched rather quickly. The house wasn'transacked properly if it was a robbery.
And look generally too, when itis a robbery, they want to
go in, they want to grabyour stuff, and they want to get
out. Generally, the only timethat someone gets hurt in a robbery is
if the thief is and the wayis interrupted, yeah, by a family

(17:26):
member. Generally, they want toget in, they want to grab the
stuff, and they want to getout just as quickly. So yeah,
and on top of that, likethe the brutality of it also suggests that
there is there's either a gratification elementhere or there is a frustration element here.
Oh, passion element. Yeah,you know, it's a passionate attack.

(17:49):
It's not it's not a thief inthe night who's like, oh shit,
you know you've caught me. I'mgoing to take my very small chart
like and and on top so thatthey're not catching anyone. Because both Sarah
and her mother are killed in theirbeds Adrian was working on his woodworking.
The two later victims were the onesthat had sounds covering up the sounds of

(18:14):
the other murders, which my firstone to be dispatched was the one who
could hear, you know, Soif you're a thief, you're actually going
out of your way to kill thesepeople, and you're going out of your
way to hamper yourself rather than gettingin, getting your stuff and getting out
just as quickly without anyone knowing.So yeah, you know, for me,
it feels like there is a senseof familiar here, and there's also

(18:37):
you know, a passion element aswell, So it's either serial killer or
someone who knows the family. Therewas also something strange about the carpet in
Jennifer's room. Large patches theorized tobe full of identifying evidence were missing from
the bedroom flaws. Upon examination ofthe main bedroom, it was observed that
the areas of carpet had been cutout and removed. The compellan's father gave

(19:00):
evidence that he did not notice anymissing areas of carpet when he steam cleaned
the carpets a few days before themurders vote from De Granchi versus the Queen
of August two thousand and two nearSouth Wales Supreme Court. There was no
sign of this missing carpet and thepolice were sure that the murderer had taken
it with them. They would findthe carpet with the murder weapon, which
was not located at the scene.Forensic tests began on the house, with

(19:22):
every patch of blood tested in casethe killer had also been injured and their
blood mixed in with the others.Remember this is nineteen ninety six. DNA
evidence is not really a thing untilOJ comes out, and even then it's
not really mainstream until the early twothousands. Forensic tests conducted at the family
home located a blood stain on thewall above the bed where the body of

(19:44):
the appellant's mother was found, andanother on the toild floor in the hallway.
DNA testing later showed that those bloodstains could have originated from the appellant,
but not from his father. DNAtesting of another blood stain in the
hallway showed that it could have alsocome from the appellant or not. To
The vanity unit in the main bathroombore the left palm print of the appellant
and test a positive for blood.The DNA testing of the blood was unsuccessful.

(20:07):
The open petrol container near the bodyof his brother also bore the appellant's
fingerprints, but not those of hisfather, who said in evidence that he
also used a container from time totime. Rouchie versus the Queen two thousand
and two, New South Wales SupremeCourt. Something the police had to consider
here is that the killer could havebeen living in the house. The stage

(20:29):
theft made it more likely to beeither Matthew Wain or someone who knew the
family murdered the mother and her children. Eliminating Matthew and Wain was hard when
it came to fingerprints, as theyliterally lived at the house and had for
a long while. While there isa time limit on how long oils will
remain sticky enough for fingerprints to befound at a crime scene. That limit
varies depending on the surface pressure andcondition of the hands, and can be

(20:52):
up to forty years, so ittakes experience and a lot of math to
eliminate them from the pile. Alibiswere quickly checked for the pair. Wayne's
father confirmed that he was still inSydney that night. Balls Deep in his
girlfriend spoilers The Appellan's father, Waynede Grucci, sometimes stayed overnight during the
week at his parents' house at Moorbank. On Tuesday, twelfth of March nineteen

(21:17):
ninety six, he played golf atPennet Hills Golf Club. He telephoned his
wife between six pm and six thirtypm to tell her that he would not
be coming home that evening. MisterRonald Grucci, the father of Wayne de
Grucci, gave evidence that Wayne deGrucci was at his home from eight thirty
pm until ten thirty pm. MisterRonald de Grucci retired for the night next
to on his son. The followingmorning and seven thirty a m Mister Ronald

(21:40):
Degrucci was not aware at the timeof the murders, but subsequently became aware
that mister Wayne de Grucci had afemale friend. No statement was taken from
her by any police officers, althoughthey too came to know of her.
Quote from Degrucci versus the Queen twothousand and two, New South Wales Supreme
Court, it's a sign of howquickly they eliminated the father out of it

(22:00):
that they didn't even bother ask inthe mistress where he was. Yeah,
well, I mean he's in Sydneyat the time. Yeah, you know,
so there was a reason that hestayed overnight with his well two reasons,
wonder give Dick Whitt, and theother was to be able to work
in Sydney and stay there, soyou know, he wasn't often returning home
and obviously had a pretty tight alibi. No pun intended as to why he

(22:25):
was not able to go back homethat night. It was obviously with the
girlfriend. In those sort of circumstances, yes, you could verify with the
girlfriend if you need to, butit obviously sounds like police felt they didn't
because it most likely is one ofthose things where Wayne was not probably excited

(22:47):
to be forthcoming. With that information, attention then turned to Matthew de Grucci.
He spent the night at his girlfriend'shouse, and it seemed understandable that
he arrived late, apparently without bloodon him nor in any form of emotional
distress. Melissa Brindley's mother, missusGail Brinley, confirmed that the appellan arrived
at her house at about eleven pmthat she woke him the next morning.

(23:08):
She too said that she had noticednothing unusual about his demeanor. Quote from
Degrucchi versus the Queen two thousand andtwo. New South Wales Supreme Court.
Police were stumped, but kept theireyes peeled. While investigations did slow down,
they never really stopped, and onMay thirteen, nineteen ninety six,
two months to the day of themurders, a break in the case gave

(23:30):
them what they needed. The sledgehammerkiller returned just kidding. Some two months
after the murders, a number ofitems, many of which were identified by
the appellant's father as coming from thefamily home, were found in a dam
at the rear of the old Wunumabrick works. The damn is thirty one
kilometers from the family home. Whichthe bodies were found, and two kilometers

(23:51):
from the home of the appellant's girlfriendwhere he stayed on the night of the
twelfth of March. The evidence ofa Detective Sharky was that it took twenty
six minutes to drive at five kilometersper hour less than the speed limit from
the family home to the dam.Two minutes from the dam to the home
of the appellant's girlfriend. Detective Palamara, who was with Detective Sharky at the

(24:11):
time, gave evidence that they traveledat about five kilometers per hour above the
speed limit. The time taken totravel from the family home to the dam
was approximately twenty four minutes. Theappellant was familiar with the dam, admitted
to having been there as a childfrom De Grocchi versus the Queen two thousand
and two, New South Wales SupremeCourt. At this point the theory is,

(24:33):
of course, that the family waskilled. He cleaned himself off.
He tried to get rid of asmuch evidence as he could, drove to
the dam and then drove to hisgirlfriend's house. That makes up for the
rest of the hour and a bitover the twenty minute, So putting my
sherlock hat back on Matthew's angry thathe can't go and see his girlfriend and
borrow the car. There's obviously problemsgoing on in this particular family, absentee

(24:56):
father who has a girlfriend on theside, and Matthew obviously coming up against
his mother, being not the absenteeparent and most likely the authoritarian in his
life as well. The term nowis default parent, default parent, so
he's obviously coming up against her andis not particularly happy about it. Now

(25:18):
you may turn around and say,well, how can he murder all these
people within thirty minutes, gather upall of his staff, take it to
the damn and then go see hisgirlfriend. Well, he said he left
the home at ten pm, butno one's alive to confirm that, are
they right? Which means the timelineof events is entirely dependent on Matthew,

(25:41):
our prime suspect in the case.Mind you, Now we go back to
our random thief or our random serialkiller, and our serial killers do keep
trophies. They do it all thetime. Go check out our episodes on
like either lap. For example,when they take things, they generally decide
to keep them unless they get reallyreally scared, and then they try ditch
them. It's weird that a thiefslash violent homicidal maniac would take a few

(26:07):
items and then put them in abag and then dump them in a dam
and then drive away. That wouldmake the whole theft idea kind of irrelevant,
wouldn't it. Yeah, it's kindof stupid, kind of stupid.
So we can probably eliminate random thieffrom our equation, which leaves a hired
killer and person who lives there leadswell, you know, you can.

(26:30):
You sit there with the idea ofa serial killer and it's becoming more and
more distant, and you can completelyeliminate thief. My guess is that blood
or an injury or some sort ofevidence was apparent on those items, you
know, if he'd injured himself andthere was blood splatter or so on and
so forth. My feeling about thisis that in a blind rage, Matthew

(26:57):
went into a sort of of afugue state, or a sort of blackout
state, as it were. Now, that's not to take away responsibility either.
People have these mental breaks, andyou know that there's this idea amongst
a lot of killers, especially conveniencekillers or family annihilators, where they're like,

(27:19):
oh, like I just one minute, I'm standing there in the kitchen
and then I completely black out,and then I come to again and I've
got blood all over my hands.You know, they do that as a
way to distance themselves from the crime, or you know, try and suggest
that there was other motives behind thecrime, et cetera, et cetera.

(27:41):
You know, it's a way toabscond their responsibility. But what generally happens
is that this blackout that they describe, it's a level of anger and a
lot of us well, actually,you know, look, not everyone experiences
that level of anger, but thereis a I get it. There's yeah,
me too, Like there is acertain point where anger can induce irrationality.

(28:07):
You know, you may have seenpeople throw themselves to the ground or
you know pull it their hair,or you know, run around in a
circle, you know, like wesee it in Toddler's because Toddler's especially,
you know, they're not able toregulate their emotions, or the parents who
listen to this show are probably seeingtheir nodding right now as they're two year

(28:29):
old terrorizes themselves, the family,pet and the rest of the family.
And if you could take that uncontrolled, unregulated emotion of a toddler, and
you put it into the brain ofa flu grown adult, you do have
these these fugue like moments, thesemoments of complete nutter irrationality, you know,
almost it's almost like the polar oppositeof the panic attack. You know,

(28:52):
a panic attack happens when the thebrain is having a difficult time dealing
with you know, a situation orin environments, or it starts to try
and shut down higher functions and increasebreathing and you know, leads to hyperventilating.
It's the opposite of that, whereyou know, the brain has just

(29:12):
sort of flooded with all of thosechemicals and the person is still acting within
their own power, you know,but it's almost like it's in such an
irrational state that what they do isthey disconnect from the situation. And you
know, that's what I kind offigure is happening here. I think,

(29:34):
Matthew, what possibly was unstable ina difficult environment and is while fully in
control of their actions, perhaps actedincredibly irrationally and did something terrible. In
the bags found by police were anumber of interesting items that were directly linked

(29:56):
to the degricci household, either byMatthew or by Wayne. Found in the
dam and identified by the appellants fatheras having come from the family home,
included a pair of binoculars, aSega Master System too. Did you have
a Sega System? Hallway, No, we didn't have Sega. I think
the first one I remember was actuallyPlayStation one. We had Nintendo sixty four,
I Station one, Nintendo sixty fourGameCube, the next Xbox. Lindsay

(30:18):
had the GameCube. I had theXbox, and Lindsay got the Xbox.
That me and him just kept gettingthe Xboxes, and now we have every
console that we want except a PlayStationbecause we don't want that. I want
to PlayStation. Actually, I wantto PlayStation for Spider Man, and I
can't justify buying a console for onegame. So I've been been good boy.

(30:44):
I haven't done that. The itemsfound in the dam and identified by
the appellants father as having come fromthe family home included a pair of binoculars,
Sega Master System, two various Segagames, a Cassio calculator mark with
the name A Di Grucci, alady's purse containing cards in his wife name,
her driving license, and an NRMA membership, a red and white
less sport carry bag, and ablack backpack. There were other items which

(31:07):
could not identify. One of theitems recovered from the dam, but not
identified by the appellants file, wasa pair of blue tracksuit pants. The
red and white bag located in thedam was found to contain, amongst other
things, two T shirts, kitchenknife, a red colored tail, two
pieces of carpet, and a plasticziploc bag. There was evidence that it
was highly probable that the two piecesof carpets had their origin in the bedroom

(31:30):
carpet, as did the tuft ofcarpet that was found in the car driven
by the appellant on the night ofthe twelfth of March nineteen ninety six.
Blood was found on the carpet piecesfound in the dam, but the DNA
could not be identified. Similarly,DNA it was located on the two T
shirts but also could not be identified. Detective Dougherty's evidence was that he had
gone to the dam on the thirteenthMay nineteen ninety six. In addition to

(31:53):
the objects already mentioned, he founda towel, saggi game cases and control
pads, black colored lady wallet containingcredit cards, papers and a license in
the name of Missus de Groccy,light colored sock, a pair of scissors,
a pair of blue track pants,and a calculator with the name A
de Grocci on it and a telephonenumber inscribed on the back. A handkerchief

(32:14):
was found line in the mud ofthe dam. Another was found and signed
a gamecase near the western bank ofthe dam after it was drained. A
hammer was found under a tree.The red and white sports bag contained various
items including two T shirts, onemaroon, one blue, a video tape
recorder, pair of binoculars, anempty bottle of sambooka two pieces of carpet,
and a plastic ziploc bag. Blackbackpack contained a Sega Master system,

(32:37):
two two calculators, some Sega gamecases, a video cassette, gang boy and
gang cartridges, like colored sock,batman bag and a black sports velcro wallet.
So it wasn't just one bag ofshit that he took from the house.
There was lots of stuff. Threebags the Groucci versus the Queen two
thousand and two, New South WalesSupreme Court. Inside that little ziplock bag

(33:00):
was a torn up piece of anote helpfully preserved from the water up by
whoever threw it in. Because thewater hadn't turned the paper into slop,
the police were able to reconstruct thepaper and identify the handwriting of whoever wrote
it. A plastic ziplock bag foundin the dam contained a torn up sheet
of notepaper, upon one side ofwhich was written open gate, throw bottle

(33:21):
down the back, throw things down, a wall in roof, track,
soup pants, one knife, onet shirts, two shoes, two hanky,
pole, towel, open blinds tosee through, Sarah mum adrian,
headbutt, mirror, mirror, crossedout bench, have shower, throw high
fi down back, hit arm withpole, hit leg with pole, cut
somewhere with knife. The writing wasin black ink, except for the word
Sarah mum Adrian, which were inblue. On the other side of the

(33:44):
paper, a series of numbers waswritten in red ink. Grouchie versus the
Queen two thousand and two, NewSouth Wales Supreme Court. Now an image
of that list has been released tothe public. It is available on the
internet. Looking at it, it'skind of set out like a shopping list,
all like, this is the orderof shit I have to do to
get away with something. Stupid assholesdo this all the fucking time. I

(34:06):
know you'd sit there and think noone would be that stupid. Oh yeah,
people are that fucking stupid. Peoplewrite shit down all the time that
they really shouldn't. Yeah, theyreally really shouldn't. Always be careful what
you're writing down and could use itsevidence against you at a later date.
But yes, in this particular case, it seems like someone was suggesting that
they needed to injure themselves or hurtthemselves stage or break in get rid of

(34:30):
a bunch of evidence. It's like, and see this is where it also
is going to. It's really difficultto imagine someone doing that to their family
when they've premeditated so much of it. A crime of passion, while horrendous
and not excusable, is at leaston the surface understandable. You know,

(34:51):
we can wear two steps away fromlosing our fucking minds, all of us
are. You have no idea howeasily one bad can really push someone off
the deep end, especially if they'realready suffering for mental health issues to start
with. You know that being said, there's a certain level of callousness involved,
knowing full well that someone could havepremeditated this crime and then hit their

(35:15):
mother in the head so fucking hardwith a sledgehammer that it ejected her brain
twenty to thirty times with the sledgehammer, right that sort of I don't that
like that premeditated pen up rage isjust incredible. I don't know anyone who
would be angry enough to hit theirmum in the head once, let alone

(35:37):
thirty fucking times. Yeah. MatthewDegrucci eventually admitted that the handwriting and the
note were his, but he couldn'tremember writing it. He later suggested that
some of the writer remember writing it. I don't understand. I mean,
I write shit tons of notes.I don't remember writing half of it.
Yeah, I know, but it'sit's like, this is a very specific
note. Why'd you write this?I don't remember. You don't remember so

(36:04):
saying you wrote it? Yes,you're saying this is your handwriting. Yes,
I am okay, you don't rememberit writing it? No, I
don't. Well read the note andtell me if that jog's your memory,
nap. Nothing Like if you wrotea note, Holly, and then you
looked at it later on, whatwould you say? The probability is that
you knew in the moment why youwrote that note. Have done this.

(36:24):
Statistically, it's about seventy five percentat the time. I'll remember. There
you go. Now, if youwrote a very itemized list like this,
do you think the chances are better? Yeah, I'd also like to wheel
back a little bit. Writing anote like this, ceiling it in a
ziplock bag and then throwing it inthe water is just begging for someone to
find this. It's fucking weird.It's really really weird. Look, it

(36:47):
feels like planted evidence or someone tryingto pretend they're planting evidence or Yeah,
but I mean, like the thingabout it is that, let's say,
for example, in this really weirdscenari that someone is trying to frame Matthew,
right, he still had to writethe note. Yeah, you know,

(37:07):
That's what's so fucking odd about it. It's like, imagine you are
a killer, right, you're aserial killer because obviously this person was not
interested in keeping the things that theytook from the house, right, So
you're just a random ass serial killer. You've done the deed, and you're
sort of like looking around and you'relike, fuck me, this kid has
written something that could be misconstrued asa bit of a kill. Note,

(37:30):
man, that's a lucky fucking breakfor me as mister Rando serial killer.
So you go down to the kitchen, you open up the cupboard. Oh
look there are all these zip lockbags here. This is fucking incredible.
I'm going to take everything I tookfrom the house. I'm going to put
it all into these bags. I'mgonna preserve it, and then I'm going
to chuck it into the dam.Like. It's just so fucking outlandish.

(37:53):
And I think that what's happened isI think Matthew had a plan, right,
I think he had a plan forquite some time, but something pissed
him off at night and he losthis shit, and in his scrambled irrational
anger, right, like seventeen yearold underdeveloped a brain, yeah, screaming

(38:15):
and yelling and being so horrific thathe could do what he did. I
think his brain sort of was like, hey, remember, you kind of
had this plan, and in hisdesperation and Russia was sort of like enacting
parts of it, you know,but couldn't quite put it all together.
Because the moment that he killed themwas probably a spontaneous moment and that threw

(38:37):
out everything else, so it's likehis brain's like, well, we can
salvage parts of this maybe, Andthat's why to me it looks so haphazard.
The third option with that note isthat he put it in his ziploc
bag intending on doing something with it, put it in the bag to transport
it through them in the dem andwent, fuck, what did I do

(38:57):
with that note? Maybe? Whytry? Like it's weird. Well,
it's more to keep the pieces together, so don't lose them. That's why
it's in the ziploc batt I guessyou're right. Yeah, well I'll have
to deal with this, but Imean there are easier ways. It's got
a light up. Yeah, likeyou, someone was Yeah, someone was
going to burn like you, Therewas a plan at some stage to burn

(39:19):
adrian body. Yeah he was founddust in petrol. Yeah. It just
seems to me someone had a planand in a moment of you know,
supreme anger and rage, the murderpart was the only part of the plan
that stuck in their brain, youknow, and then you know, by
the time everything was said and done, they were like, ah, fuck,

(39:44):
I did have a plan to tryand get away with this. Crime
salvage savage. Dagrucci later suggested thatsome of the writing referred to his preparations
for his eighteenth birthday party. Fuckknows which parts that is well. Some
of the rest referred to presents he'dreceived, such as you know, pants
knife. He identified the shirts foundin the dam as probably his brothers and

(40:06):
one that was lent to him bya friend after the murders. That's includable
shit stranger. More information came tolight soon after when the car Degricci drove
that night was examined by the investigationunit. According to forensics detective Barry Doherty
in twenty twenty one, when weexamined the car, I found a single

(40:27):
fire, but it appeared to bethe same sort of carpet from inside on.
That was a minute piece of whatappeared to be blood. We were
never able to positively group it,but we do know it did not come
from the victims, but it couldhave come from Matthew. It was a
handy finding, mister Doherty said.The evidence pointed early to Matthew. You
know the story that he provided.It wasn't fitting, mister Dougherty said,

(40:50):
when we got there, it hadbeen made to look like a break in.
There are a number of things ofvalue left in the house, money
left in wallets, and he grabsstuff to make it look like break in.
I've been to hundreds of breakings andyeah, you know, this looks
staged. Quote from Albion Park Railteam killer Matthew de Gerucci could snap again,
says X cop June sixteen, twentytwenty one, Ciodine Marden. That's

(41:16):
from the Blue what is it,Holly the Blue Blue Mountains casette cassette.
Yeah, and it's like it's interestingas well when you look at something,
you know being staged because the itemsthat valuable would be valuable to a teenage
boy. Yeah, you know,not like the jewelry isn't missing, the

(41:38):
expensive city tails, the CD players, the television, things that you could
sell to make money, so youcould, you know, most of the
time they're buying drugs or whatnot,but you know the things that it's like
if all the jewelry was gone,if the tools were gone, if it

(41:59):
really did look like it was ransacked, and yeah, you know, absolutely
you take a console, but notjust the console. The number one sign
that a break in has been stagedis that some idiot has broken the glass
from the inside. Yeah, Idon't know if it happened here, but
if you plan on staging and breakin, just try and keep that in
mind. Yeah, it'd be likeif you walked into our place after a

(42:22):
break in and you'd been murdered,Holly, and like the TV was here,
but all of our toys had beentaken. Yeah, unless you very
unless you had a very very goodunderstanding of collectibles, you would not know
what they're worth, and to movethem would be more of a pain in

(42:43):
the ass than just getting some moneyfrom Cashi's for the television. Yep.
I like to try and gather themall up. So you know, if
I'm an idiot and I've murdered youand I'm trying to stage a break in
and all I do is like takethe collectibles and the movies, that looks
suspicious. Yeah, definitely lowers theplaying field number down. And you look
at all those items that ended upin the dam. They are things that

(43:06):
would have been significant to Matthew.By the end of June, Matthew de
Grucci was arrested for the murder ofhis mother, brother, and sister.
Three months later, de Grucci wascharged with the murders. Despite covert surveillance,
investigators never obtained any omissions of guiltfrom Degrucci. Instead, they compiled
an array of circumstantial evidence, includingthe note to Grucci's opportunity a means to

(43:28):
commit the murders, dumped the items, inconsistencies in his remarks following the deaths,
some forensic evidence linking to Grucci,to blood at the scene, items
handled by the murderer and the murderers, apparent faking of a burglary, and
destruction of forensic evidence. Quote beforethe High Court at Jeremy Gambs at Sydney
Law Review. So while mister Sikafrom way back during the Singh murders was

(43:52):
smart enough to shut his face forabout five six years, this kid never
actually made any admittance whatsoever that hedid it. Yeah, which you don't.
I mean, if you've committed murderand you're smart, you don't say
shit at all. It's up tothe investigators to convict you, not the
other way around. But some peoplecan't help themselves like they you know,

(44:14):
it was just like recently with thewoman who may or may not it's alleged
that she murdered in laws with thepoisoned mushroom pie, which we've talked about
a bit on our Patreon minisodes,you know, and she was arrested while
we were over in Europe, andthe story is just really fucking weird,

(44:37):
you know, and it's like,hey, just so years know, like
I did throw out this food dehydrator. Why would you tell anyone that unless
you didn't want to look to looksuspicious when they found it. You know,
that's the and that's where you canstart to see people falling apart.
And Seku was the same, Likeyou came up with fifteen different stories as

(44:58):
to why he was or was notthere, And it's a way like it
just you know, points to you. But if you're a smart person,
no, you don't say anything,don't You don't create any narrative whatsoever.
One of the pieces of evidence thatreading through this I've realized I have left
out is that Matthew said at onepoint in time that the house received eight
or nine different calls that evening ofsomeone saying that they were going to kill

(45:22):
three of the members of the household. And that can easily be disproven with
telephone records exactly because no direct evidencesuch as witnesses or recordings could be recovered
of the crime, police were forcedto build a case on motive, opportunity,
and circumstance. Because of this,the defense was on fire, doing
whatever they could to so doubt.Without any facts, the police offered the

(45:45):
juries. One of these arguments involvedsome hair found on Adrian's hand between two
fingers. Some hair which was coveredin a substance that could have been blood,
was found in the hand of theappellant's brother. DNA material that could
have been that of the appellant's brotheror sis, but not that of the
appellant, was detected in the substance. Testing did not enable the hand to
be identified, but it was unlikelyto be that of the appellant's brother,

(46:08):
whose hair was much shorter. Quotefrom De Grucci versus the Queen, two
thousand and two, New Southwest SupremeCourt. Police argued this was simply transferred
from either mother or sister from themurder weapon. Well. Defense claimed it
was a third person who killed afamily. It's the same argument m'latt's people
try to use. It was somesort of like Asian person. It's a

(46:31):
blonde hair dude. That's in referenceto I mean, I'm thinking Peter Kurry
the Hair of the Aliens, soI don't know. It's cable guy.
So most people don't realize this,but Ben's still a directed cable guy.
And in the background of it,there's like a rich kid and he's murdered
his family and it's played by BenStiller. There's actually a story within the

(46:53):
story and part of his defense whowas like, I came home and they
were all murdered, and I sawsome of Asian person running away. Because
it's always that's also one of theget to's of people who have committed And
I'm not saying to Gricci did this, he did it. But one thing
you'll find a lot in those sortof cases where they're trying to throw detectives

(47:15):
off the scent, is they'll blamea minority. There was an infamous case
not too long ago about an Americanwoman who was supposedly abducted by Mexican people
and which led to Vigilani's attacking Mexicanpeople in the city she was taken from,
but she'd staged all herself for attention. Conversely, when the government or

(47:37):
the police blame a minority and itturns out they weren't, but it causes
a stigma against the minority groups,such as the taxi drivers in the Bernie
case. Yeah. Absolutely. Thehairs found were about six inches long.
Well, the longest hair on Matthewde Griucci's head at the time was two
inches. The hairs most closely fitthe profile of Sarah's hair, but could
of course have been from Jennifer.I wrong to describe the hair hair that

(48:00):
could not have been that of theappellant, and which was very unlikely to
have come from his brother. Itis not known in issue that on his
description was incorrect, and that DNAtesting established the substance adhering to the hair
and not the hair itself, couldnot have come from the appellant. Arana
thought that the possibility that the hairhad come from the appellant sister and been

(48:20):
carried on a murder weapon to thehand of her brother was not so inherently
impossible as to warrant rejection quote fromDedgrucci versus the Queen two thousand and two
New South Wales Supreme Court. Thisdoubt was one of the keystones to their
argument, alongside the assurances that Matthewde Grucci was a kind and gentle soul
who wouldn't hurt anyone. The defensealso relied heavily on the absence of any

(48:45):
proven motive and non evidence of theappellant's good character given by his uncle,
his father, his girlfriend, andhis girlfriend's mother, who variously described him
as very gentle, far from violent, devoted to his mother, polind,
quiet, kind, and a personwho got on well with his family,
keeping in course in mind that hewas not considerate enough to want to leave

(49:07):
his mother with her car so thathe could go visit his girlfriend at eleven
o'clock at night when both his girlfriendand girlfriend's mother were asleep, and then
the next day had to be remindedto go home when home thought, oh,
there's still twenty minutes before she's gotto go to work, so I'm
going to nit back down the streetsand grab myself some cigarettes. This person

(49:30):
is very devoted to his mother andvery very considerate, except for that one
day where he wasn't for about twentyfour hours. Throughout the trial, his
father's family and his girlfriend stood byhim, convinced that he was innocent of
all the charges. Degrucci continued toproclaim his innocence of the events, citing
character witnesses, lack of abnormal behavior, lack of injuries, and a statement

(49:55):
that the house had received multiple printcalls that night. And his nineteen ninety
eight trial, Degrucci maintained his initialaccount and gave explanations for some of the
prosecution's evidence. Groucci's father, uncle, and girlfriend test to find that he
had a gentle nature and that therewas no discord in the Degrucci family except
for the fact that the father wasan Abstein father who also had a girlfriend

(50:15):
on the side, but whatever,and the son was arguing with his mother
when he last saw her. Theyalso said that they did not observe any
injuries or abnormal behavior by Degrucci atthe time of the murders. The defense
suggested that the murders were the workof a third party, deducing evidence of
hands found on Adrian's body, thedefendant's account of the prank phone calls predicting
death for three family members on thenight of the murder, the suicide of

(50:37):
a Woollongong man a week later,who had left a note saying that he
feared being blamed for the murders.Quote before the High court, Jeremy Gained
Sidney Law Review. See that's aweird one, isn't it. We're just
going to take this case and takea massive left turn on it. It's
really really strange that that suicide.Note, it's a weird one, very

(50:58):
very weird one. But you know, paranoid schizophrenics also absorb a lot of
media around them, and that usuallytranslates into very strange things. There was
a case in America again where anindividual believed that President Obama, who was
the seenor president at the time,was involved in a grand alien conspiracy.
And when he was asked to describethe aliens, he talked about how they

(51:22):
looked, and they looked very similarto Sesame Street muppets. Because throughout this
person's paranoid episodes and delusions, hewas absorbing pop culture around him, and
obviously Sesame Street is one of thevery easy things to access on television,
and that's what it was absorbing,and it was becoming part of his delusion.
So if someone kills themselves and youknow, they've been having paranoid episodes

(51:46):
and they're like, you know,I could be blamed for these murders,
you know, chances are you're talkingabout someone who is simply absorbing the culture
around and they're reading the newspaper andthings like that. If they're committing to
side, than obviously there's already mentalissues there. So that's an easier way
to explain that it's not necessarily asmoking gun, and it happens more often

(52:08):
than you think. One of thebiggest pieces of evidence tended by the defense
wasn't that Degruci was innocent. Itwas that another man died proclaiming himself a
person of interest. Finally, therewas evidence that on the nineteenth of March
nineteen ninety six, a man namedWickham admitted suicide and left a note saying
that he was afraid he would beblamed for the Dagruci murders. Quote from

(52:30):
Dagriuchi versus the Queen, two thousandand two. I could not find any
reference to wakem anywhere in any ofthe papers that I looked. I don't
know whether it's because it's the deadzone of the internet being the nineties and
troph hasn't quite got up up toit yet, but even in the legal
documents, that's the only mention.Because you think that would be like a
really sexy sort of hook for peoplereading the newspaper at the time, you'd

(52:52):
think, so why he was sosure he wouldn't be considered a person of
interest, let alone the reason thefamily died has not been released to the
public. So yeah, we canonly speculate his paranoids, schizophrenic, a
delusion in a delusion. That's theonly evidence that we or the only theory
that we can run on. Thejury was sent to deliberate on the charges

(53:12):
on October thirteenth, nineteen ninety eight, where they spent some time going over
the information they'd been presented. Thejury, which began its deliberations in the
triple murder trial at ten oh eightam yesterday, left the historic dulling Host
Court complex shortly after four pm withoutreaching a verdict. They decided to return
to the courthouse to day and anattempt to reach an unanimous decision rather than

(53:34):
continue their discussions Late into yesterday afternoon, the jury sent its first note to
Judge Grove at ten forty five am, asking for a transcript of the evidence
of Elissa Brindley and Gail Brinley.Just before one pm, the jury sent
a second note to Judge Grove requestinga transcript of the evidence of Detective Senior
Constable Gary Moffatt from Wollongong's fingerprint unit, and forensic scientist Robert Goats wrote from

(53:55):
Degrucci, drury is deadlocked Luis turkIllaworojcurate nineteen ninety eight. Dagrucci was finally
found guilty on October fourteen, nineteenninety eight, and sentenced on December fifteenth.
Almost immediately, appeals entered the courtsystem based around the judge's closing steam
into the jury, with the firstsuch rejected by the New South Wales Court

(54:16):
of Criminal Appeal on March three,two thousand. De Guruhi's first complaint was
about the trial judge summing up tothe jury concerning his directions on the subject
of a disturbed mind. It's importantto recognize that the question of what was
going on inside the murderer's mind wasrelevant as circumstantial evidence about the murderer's identity,
rather than as direct evidence about themurderer's culpability. To understand the directions

(54:39):
given by the trial judge, itis crucial to appreciate their background in the
events of the trial. The startingpoint was a remark by the prosecutor in
his closing address that the person whocommitted the murders must have had a disturbed
mind as an inference of fact fromthe victim's injuries. This comment is obviously
compelling experienced observers initially like in thevictim's injuries inflicted by a blond instrument to

(55:02):
gunshot wounds or the aftermath of aplane crash deep one police sergeant who attended
the scene and never worked again.Quote from before the High Court at Jeremy
Gaines's Sydney Law Review. That's areally weak defense and I'm kind of curious
as to why they were so perturbedby that. This explanation of why they

(55:24):
were perturbed took six pages in thelegal document, so I was not going
to put it into the notes.It basically boiled down to the inference was
the murderer had a deranged mind.The trial was to work out whether Matthew
de Grucci was the murderer. Thereforethey then have to work out whether de
Grucci had a deranged mind. Andyou can't call a witness or someone being

(55:46):
charged deranged. It is against theunbiased. I don't know what it's called,
but you can't bias a jury towardsanything, and they tried to circle
that into this is trying to biasthem against Matthew, right. So,
so what they're saying is that atthe in the closing statement, if I
can understand this correctly, I'll traincleaned up to you. In the closing

(56:08):
statement, the prosecutor says, theperson who committed this act was someone who
had a deranged mind. Yep.The prosecution had, as part of their
case, tried to establish that Matthewwas mentally unwell yep. Therefore they had

(56:29):
screwed up the case. They hadacted inappropriately because in the final statements they
had made a judgment call on Matthew. The judge made that final statement,
right, which then brought the ideathe memory of the term deranged mind back
into the mind of the jurors,and therefore they were judging Matthew with that

(56:50):
label, which is inappropriate. It'sbias in the jury, right. That
was That's their convoluted argument to tryand get in a pose. It's a
long road. I would again seepages. Yeah, i'd go more on
circumstantial evidence of his mayor, butyeah, Dagrucci would serve three concurrent twenty
eight year sentences for the murders,which means he's really only serving twenty eight

(57:10):
years. He served at Golban's LongBay Prison until at least two thousand and
nine. In February two thousand andseven, he was charged with attacking a
pair of rapists in the prison alongwith six other men. Matthew Wayne de
Grucci, who was serving at twentyeight year jail term for the murder of
his mother and two siblings at OutbyondPark Rail near Wollongong ninety ninety six,

(57:31):
is among the four murderers. Tworapists and an armed robber allegedly evolved in
the vicious bashing of the brothers,who can only be known as ms K
and m a K. The bashingin the yard of Golvin Jail in February
two thousand and seven almost killed ma K, who suffered severe head injuries
and needed to be airlifted to hospitalfor brain surgery. His brother was treated

(57:52):
for a broken arm. After anextensive two year investigation, the inmates have
been charged and made their first appearancesfor in filick in grievous bodily harm in
gold And Local Court this morning.Vote from Killer's Bash Gang Rapist Brothers by
Kara Lawrence, The Daily Telegraph,March eighteen, two thousand and nine.
Which I have no problem with thosethat particular pair of brothers. I did

(58:15):
look into the case. There's notmuch known about them because they're still only
known by pseudonyms. But I wonderif they're rich kids or politicians' kids.
There were immigrants kids, but theytargeted children. Yeah, so between thirteen
and eighteen years old, So that'swhy they got targeted. Some must have
been either the case was really really, really bad, or someone was connected

(58:37):
somewhere to be able to keep theirname suppressed. Yeah. At some point
after this court appearance, Degrucci wasmoved to Junie, where he eventually earned
the privilege to work day release atan abattoir. Dgroucci has earned himself positive
reviews from his employer at Juni Abbatoir, where he works in the chill room
under terms set by the Serious Offender'sReview Council Corrective Services. A New South

(59:00):
Wales spokeswoman Saidagrucci did not have accessto knives in his role. All work
locations are risk assessed to ensure theydo not present any security concerns he and
may will be released back in thecommunity at some point. Day Work's release
is an important step to ensure hewill assimilate into the community successfully. So
Christmas episode, we had an arsonistwho was put into the volunteer favor SERVI.

(59:22):
We have a three time family murdererhe sent to work and a fucking
abatoa. What's next are we goingto do Catherine Night? Were going to
send her back on the kill floor? Yeah? Yes, send it to
a local butcher shop. Jesus Christoh dear I was quote from Triple Murder
of Matthew Dgrucci working in New SouthWales Avatar by Angela Thompson SMH. Degrucci

(59:46):
was eligible for parole in twenty seventeen. However, he didn't actually make parole
until August twenty nineteen, and willremain on parole until the expiration of his
sentence in June twenty twenty four.As part of his parolecan conditions, he
can't enter the Shoalhaven or Illewora localgovernment areas, nor can any contact anyone
on his mother's side of the family. His father, however, sought a

(01:00:08):
specific court order to allow him tosee his surviving son. The Grouci has
since taken up residents in Tasmania withhis father. Since his release, he
has opened a bank account, acquireda tax file number, any care card
replacement, berth certificate, photo ID, forkliff license and a learner driver's license.
Has been little word about his lifesince his release. It can be

(01:00:29):
assumed that he will keep a lowprofile in his community due to the public
disapproval surrounding his release. Quote fromThe New Tasmanian DEVORL Matthew Degrucci massacredis Family
a dot w Nave's thirteenth of Septembertwo thousand and twenty one. So did
he actually do it? It's reallyinteresting. A lot of these cases that

(01:00:49):
have sort of come before us overthe last couple of years, we've been
able to sort of sit there.You know, every time I often go
back to point I keep continuing tomake that I think that jury trials are
not good. I don't think,you know, we keep seeing these convictions
made on very little evidence, andit's definitely tough for victims of crime to

(01:01:12):
hear someone let myself turn around andsay, I really do believe this person
did it, though I don't thinkthey should have been convicted for it,
And I understand why that sentiment isnot going to go over well with a
lot of people. But you know, we really need to make sure that
our systems are rigorous so that innocentpeople aren't unfairly treated. I think circumstantial

(01:01:34):
evidence is not good. I thinkcircumstantial evidence in conjunction with really strong evidence
is good. Yeah, it's reallyinteresting. Like you look at one of
the things that was stipulated that Grucciwasn't allowed to speak with anyone on his
mother on his mother's side of thefamily. You know that in itself speaks

(01:01:55):
volumes the fact that they believed hedid it. They didn't want to have
contact with him. The family oftenknows more than you would think about what's
going on. Conversely, usually it'sgeneral practice that you can't contact the family
of view victims. Yea, itis. His family and his father went
specifically to get permission for the contact, whereas his mother's family were father whereas

(01:02:19):
his mother's family went, nowh fuckthat not talking to him? You know.
So, I think that they feltthat he had done it, and
you know, they knew him,probably better than the jurors. People can
be easily swayed. I'm not sayingthat they can't, but you know,
I think that speaks volumes as toat least what his mother's side of the
family thought. The only thing thatI can sort of draw on is our

(01:02:42):
pretty extensive knowledge now of you know, some of Australia's worst killers, specifically
serial killers, and just our overallknowledge of true crime and the case,
the way that they were murdered,that there was very little fire, that
what was removed from the house wasnot very valuable really, that someone who

(01:03:04):
wasn't in the main line of firewas still targeted. You know, that
says to me very clearly that eitherthere is a very like Matthew pissed someone
off real bad. Yeah, thatthey created a very grand conspiracy and got
him sent to prison for thirty oddyears even though he couldn't tell you who

(01:03:25):
it was. Like, that's youknow, that's very extreme. That we're
talking like a film, you know, like Old Boy at that point,
you know, it's sort of becomeso far fetched that it'd be fictional.
That's a scenario. But regardless ofwhether he was innocent or not, and
it's look, again, the evidencejust isn't there someone who knew that family

(01:03:47):
killed them and they killed them withrage and passion, and it's evidence in
the way that they did it,and you know, they were able to
sort of move within that house quitefreely as well, someone who knew them
did it. I have no doubtabout that, especially because, like,

(01:04:08):
you know, if it was aserial killer, you know, why weren't
there more serial killings around the area, or at least crime scenes that had
a very similar appearance in them,Like the police themselves said that they had
never seen anything like this, Likeit was so horrific and so violent that
police retired early or quit after seeingthat. So if it was a rampaging

(01:04:31):
serial killer, why didn't we seethat? Why didn't we see those sort
of horrific crimes playing out all acrossthe area. Because we know serial killers
don't go quiet forever, they reemerge. There's a lot of parallels with
Catherine Knight. She only did onemurder, but it was a murder that
made a few cops retire. Yeah, it was so horrific, and that's

(01:04:55):
why I do believe that you know, there was you know, there was
a connection there. I you know, did Matthew do it. I mean,
I think that there is a Matthewthat was presented to the courts,
and I think there is the realperson. And I think a lot of
people around him at the time dideverything they could to either you know,
maintain the person that they thought hewas, to maintain that view of him,

(01:05:18):
or they were trying very very desperatelyto present him as a wonderful,
cherub like man or boy who wasbecoming a man. Then I think he
was, you know, I thinkit's quite clear that he was probably somewhat
selfish, as most seventeen year oldsare as well. Like don't get me
wrong, but lots of seventeen yearolds are also family and iihilators. They

(01:05:42):
don't get what they want, theyfeel like they're being held back. It's
obvious that his father was an absenteefather with a girlfriend on the side,
so obviously that they were presenting thatas this lovely family unit that was really
tight and everyone got on and noone would ever murder anyone. But obviously
there was probables at home through Matthew'sbehavior and his father's behavior obviously suggests that

(01:06:03):
their family unit wasn't as strong aspeople were making out that it was if
you've got that a default parent,it's it's not too much of a leap
to think that all of Matthew's animositycould be directed at the default parent,
who was just probably trying their bestand you know, just want them to
settle down. But yeah, peoplepopping off like this is not as it's

(01:06:26):
not uncommon. Yeah, I know, I don't think there was enough evidence
to convict him. Again, it'slike talking about Folbig and talking about Kamberlain
and talking about Beaker when we talkedabout those cases, Like, I find
it really disconcerting that we're able toconvict people in this country on so little
evidence other than like dead body appearsat this point and a lot of circumstantial

(01:06:49):
evidence suggests that this person may ormay not have been involved, and that
I think is is not great.Imagine being on the other side of that,
being the person who is being accusedand convicted on circumstantial evidence. You
don't want it. And that's whyI think we've said this multiple times and
will always continue to say this,like even if you're innocent, like bring

(01:07:12):
in a lawyer, like really likealways have a lawyer with you, you
know, the police are always goingto be the first people to say to
you, you know, if youbring a lawyer in now, you're going
to look really guilty. Fuck no, like you can be. You can
be convicted and sent to prison forthirty years on very little evidence. Do
you really think a ceo or abrillionaire is waiting for the police to actually

(01:07:35):
charge them before they bring their lawyerin. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
People who have money and good lawyerson retainers, they don't sit there and
wait bring their legal team in.I think that's a fantastic point. You've
made their holly like people don't,you know, sit there and wait and
wait and wait, like they bringin their legal team. And the same
has to apply to all of us. Like if you're in front of a

(01:07:56):
police officer and it become evidence,you can ask the straight up hey,
you know, do you believe thatI had anything to do with this?
And then as soon as they're like, oh, well, you know,
or they give you a bit ofa wishy washing answer, or even before
you get to that point, saylook, I just want to have my
lawyer in here to make sure everything'sabove board and you're not trying to entrap
me and then they go, oh, you know, that looks a bit

(01:08:17):
bit sus, And it's like,I don't care, don't worry about You're
not paying for the lawyer. Whyyou're so worried about it? Were you
implanning on entrapping me? You know, because when we look at these people,
regardless of whether you know they're guiltyor innocent, they are being convicted
on very little evidence, very littleevidence. But yeah, no I think

(01:08:38):
you did it. The evidence doesn'tquite point a different way like it did
with Folbig so well, even whenyou know, we recorded the full Big
episode. I did say that therewas a chance that maybe she was culpable
of the murder of a couple ofthe children. You know, but my
feelings are irrelevant really, and Imean this in the you know that the

(01:09:00):
justice system should not function on feelings. It's why I don't like jury trials.
Prefer like a judge in Australia,it has to go through an enormous
education in order to be put inthat position, like unlike America, we
don't elect our judges. You know, they're they're given these positions based on
you know, their education, theirability, their service. So in a

(01:09:24):
lot of times, you know,you've got someone who really does understand the
law, and then just having thatthat person there and having a lawyer on
either side argue a case, Ithink is much better than a group of
people who you have to convince,because you know, a judge is going
to be able to draw on theirexperience and then I'm going to have to

(01:09:44):
be is They're not going to haveto be convinced that they're going to be
able to, you know, determinean outcome based on the evidence if they're
a good judge, you know.So that's why I really don't like jury
trials. Circumstantial evidence is to swaythem a lot in these cases. But
yeah, no, I I mean, my gut feeling tells me that he
probably did it for sure. Whatabout you, Yeah, I'm pretty sure

(01:10:04):
this is a dumb seventeen year oldtrying to cover up him soaking up someone
who had an outburst. Yeah,you know, and you know, I
think it's that weird combination of likepremeditation so that you know, murders on
their mind anyway, and obviously saidno, yeah, and there are a
lot of these like little factors thatare building them towards that eventual outcome,

(01:10:27):
and then plan goes out the windowbecause whatever you know that that one trigger
finally finally gets pulled, and likeyou said, all the planning goes out
the window and you end up withreally confused case. That was a long
one, So we're going to wrapit up there. I'd love to know
what your thoughts are. Do youthink that we're not weighing up the evidence

(01:10:47):
appropriately? Do you think that hedid do it? I'd love to hear
it from you. Don't forget youcan find this on all those social media
is just typing weir crap in Australiainto the search bar of your social media
of choice, or if you referto send us an email, you can
do that too. Were crap inAustralia at gmail dot com. We always
love to hear from you, soplease keep that coming. We'd love to

(01:11:09):
hear from all of you wonderful listeners, and we love to hear your opinions
because we get bored and it's nicewhen someone pops up with a comment and
it's like, hey, what doyou think about this? Or I thought
about this? With this particular episode, it's like excellent, I got ten
minutes that I can kill with oneof our lovely listeners, So this is
awesome. Please feel free to reachout to us. We do love to
hear from your We have a greatcommunity, unlike a lot of online communities

(01:11:32):
as most of the time really reallyrespectful, so we continue to appreciate that,
and you guys don't forget. Youcan support the show via a couple
of ways, one being our Patreonfriendly five dollars USD a month. We'll
get bonus episodes as well as adfree episodes released to you early. All
of that is part of our Patreonpackage and we like to thank our Patreon

(01:11:54):
supporters for making episodes like these possible. That are costs associated with what we
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big thank you to them, andlike I said, lots of great bonuses
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(01:12:16):
crap in Australian merchandise. Just openweird Crap in Australia into the search bars
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Ignicio designs there that you can slapon a T shirt, a mug or
whatever else you happen to be missingin your life that needs a week crap
In Australia logo on the front ofit. And last but not Lengus,
don't forget. We've got our bookseries We Crap In Australia. Volume one,

(01:12:40):
two four are available now in thatphysical edition from our great mates at
Impact Comics and the National Library herein Canberra. I can grab all of
those books from their online stores andof course, big thank you to those
businesses who work out for us.We very much appreciate it, and go
support your local, those little localsthat need our help. And you can

(01:13:00):
also grab the book in kindle editionof course if you prefer to go down
the digital round, and if you'reoverseas, you can grab the paperback from
Lulu dot com. That's Lulu dotCom. I'll tap your local print and
help your local economy. So everyonewins, isn't that nice? Volume five
comes out in September, so makesure you get volumes one two four now.

(01:13:23):
We might even do another signing dayvery soon. Letst know if we
were to do another signing day incamera, would you like to attend?
Love to hear from all of you. Well, is our custom, we
give Holly the final words. Look, I was an angry kid and I'm
still an angry adult. But Ijust I can't imagine killing my family and
I don't understand why seventeen year oldwould manage to do it. And I

(01:13:44):
don't think you ever will. Yeah, and that's because you're a good person
who wouldn't kill your family, evenif sometimes I really feel like they deserve
it. Unfortunately, the I thinkwe're not that far removed from the chimpanzees
seeing the zoo that are willing tokill each other over a scrap of meat.
No, I don't. I thinkfor some of us, those instincts

(01:14:06):
are still so very ever present.We're not that far removed from the animals
as we'd like to think we are. Well, that's it from us,
Thank you so much for joining us, and we'll have more weed crap for
you next week. Till then,bye for now. Nay. The Weird

(01:14:34):
Crap in Australia podcast is produced byHolly and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown.
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Episode 298 - The De Gruchy Family Murders (1996)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 298 - The De Gruchy Family Murders (1996)