Episode 361 - The Legend of the Anzacs Part 2

The legend of the ANZACs was born not through victory, but through courage, endurance, and mateship under fire. From the rocky shores of Gallipoli to the muddy battlefields of the Western Front, Australian and New Zealand troops earned a reputation for resilience, resourcefulness, and unbreakable spirit.

Though the Gallipoli campaign ended in withdrawal, the actions of the ANZACs forged a national identity that continues to shape Australia and New Zealand today. Their story is one of hardship, sacrifice, and a legacy that lives on more than a century later. 

Join Holly & Matthew as they explore the birth of the ANZAC legend and its lasting impact on national memory.

***

"And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda" (1971) written and performed by Eric Bogle.

This modern folk ballad reflects on the devastating human cost of war, particularly the Gallipoli campaign, through the eyes of a wounded Australian veteran. Written by Scottish-born Australian singer-songwriter Eric Bogle (b. 1944), the song became a poignant anti-war anthem, contrasting sharply with earlier patriotic tunes. It has been widely covered and remains a powerful meditation on memory, sacrifice, and the price of national mythmaking.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
They were last seen on the beach with a tall
man and that's the best description police have ever had
of it.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy a Beach, his widow has finally revealed
his last romantic words docky, terrifying, mesmerizing. That's the way
a number of Australians have described the alleged encounter with
the Yowi.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
It's time for the Weird Crap in Australia Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome to the Wee Crap in Australia Podcast. I'm your
host Matthew Sol joining me, of course, is Holy Soul
Me and this is episode three hundred and sixty one
and a little sneak behind the Curtain and it's part
two because the recording equipment failed yay. And let me
assure you listeners that there is nothing more frustrating for
a podcaster than doing an entire episode, putting all your

(01:07):
energy and effort into it, only to have to scrap
it and do it again, but sometimes you end up
with a much better episode that does actually happen. Now,
before we break into ANZAC Day Part two, let me
give you a little taste of what I'll often do
on the weird crap in Australian minisodes. Now you may
have seen the news and the big foura over people

(01:29):
geeing upset about welcome to Country. Allow me to cut
through all of thenews dot com dot au bullshit and
let's get right to the heart of the matter. The
reason that this happened is not because everyday Australians are
fed up with welcome to the country ceremonies. I think
honestly most people don't really care two ways or the other.

(01:50):
This is what's called as a soft push by a
particular political party. That burgeoning political party ladies and gentlemen
is of course a neo Nazi. So the Age this
week basically put together that article concerning what they believe
is going on now because Fairfax Media, just like a

(02:12):
lot of murder press, now puts their articles behind paywalls,
which really is frustrating because news dot com dot Au
is not going to publish their story because you know,
I've talked about the Australian media many times before, but
this is a great example of what I've discussed in
the past. News dot Com immediately took the bait that

(02:32):
was put out there by the neo Nazis, and what
they've done is they've turned it into a cultural war issue,
which is exactly what they wanted them to do. The Age,
of course has published their article, but they've put it
behind a paywall, which is very unfortunate. So full disclosure here.
What I had to do in order to be able
to at least talk about this is use AI in

(02:55):
this case deep seek to give me an expanded summary
of the article from the Age. So I just wanted
to read a couple of things here. These The article
is called if you do pay for the Age and
you want to go read it, the article is called
Nazis are quietly forming a political party to try and
get around the law. And now this was published on

(03:17):
the fifteenth of April twenty twenty five in The Age.
Now these are the main findings, the first being that
the covert far right political movement, Neo Nazi and white
supremacist groups in Australia are reportingly attempting to register as
a political party. And that's why they orchestrated these phony
protests or these these moments I guess you would call

(03:38):
the booing moments during Welcome to Country. The reason that
they've done this is to help to push this soft agenda, right.
This is how they work. They've pushed this soft agenda
into the mainstream media right because what they're going to
now do is they're going to go out and attempt
to get their fifteen hundred signatures in order to form

(03:59):
a political party, and they're going to use this specific
event as the launching point. This is why we have
to be so careful in this day and age now.
News dot com dot Au of course they couldn't resist
picking up the bait, starting their own polls and trying
to turn this into a cultural war issue, which is
exactly what the neo Nazis expected them to do. This

(04:21):
is exactly what they want playing into their hands. Which
it doesn't make you a Nazi sympathizer to publish that
sort of story, but fuck, it makes you close to one.
So news dot com dot Au writers and journalists there,
you know, I mean, it speaks to their character that
they work there. Let's face it. So the article details

(04:43):
some of the legal loopholes that could be potentially exploited here. Now,
Australian law restricts hate speech and incitement to violence, barn
political parties have greater freedom under what's called parliamentary privilege
intellectoral laws. Now, experts have worn that if register such
a group could disseminate extremist propaganda under the guise of

(05:04):
political campaigning. Now, security agencies monitoring, but do face hurdles.
Security agencies been asio, but they do face hurdles in
acting preemptively unless explicit criminal activity occurs. That's why I
said they're using a very soft approach here to start
building their platform. Now, some politicians are pushing for reforms

(05:27):
to prevent extremist groups from registering as parties. Now we
have a couple of quotes from the article here. A
security analyst signed in the piece stating this is a
deliberate workaround using political legitimacy as a shield for extremist agendas. Now,
political community leaders have warned if they gained a platform,

(05:47):
it will embolden violence and division. So if you want
to know who some of the people are, that makes
it even a little bit more difficult because obviously the
AGE doesn't want to get sued. So there are some
possible ties here to known extremists. Now, past investigations which

(06:07):
are being conducted by the AGE, ABC and ASIO have
identified people like Thomas Seawell, who belongs to the National
Socialist Network and other white supremacists as key figures in
this scheme, or at least it's highly suggested that they're
figures in this scheme allegedly. Allegedly allegedly, we don't know

(06:30):
for sure, we can't prove it. However, Seawell is often
connected to these things. So ASIO has previously warned of
small but violent far right cells in Australia, some with
ambitions to enter politics. Now, the good thing here is
that neo Nazis don't get on very well with each other.
Most of them end up being led by former criminals. Now,

(06:54):
I'm not going to say too much about this because
again Seawell is litigi. I would suggest you do research
on this person and you will be able to see
exactly where they come from. But most neo Nazi groups
are run by criminals. Now, the reason I am bringing
this up number one is because it's topical and number
two because this episode, while we finish up what happened

(07:19):
during the Gallipoli campaign in its entirety, the last half
of this episode, we're going to discuss why Anzac Day
dropped off for a while while it was reinstated by
former Prime Minister Bob Hawk and exactly what it became.
So ironically, governments like the Howard government and then other

(07:44):
individuals like Tony Abbott have essentially paved the way for
neo Nazi extremist movements to hijack Anzac Day in this
way and use it to further their own agenda. So
please keep an open mind as we discuss what Inzact
Day was, what it has become after we wrap on Gallipoli,

(08:06):
and please be aware of how these individuals are trying
to manipulate the media quite successfully in order to legitimize
themselves as a political party in this country. Now, what's
very interesting, of course, is they have to have fifteen
hundred signatories, so it kind of gives Azio an inroad

(08:29):
into working out where the extremists are. Are there fifteen
hundred white supremacists in this country? Absolutely do not doubt
it for a second.

Speaker 5 (08:38):
I doubt that that's a big enough number.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Honestly, I would agree with you, Holly. Now, let's say
you're a person who's like Matt, don't care. I'm for
white Australian. I don't give a shit about any other cultures.
I don't give a shit about anyone else. I care
about me. Well, I'll put it to you this way.
When the Nazis came into power during World War II,
once they killed everyone else, they are also started killing
their political rivals. They also started killing people within their

(09:04):
own party and in within their own regime. Hitler himself
even had multiple assassination attempts from within his own party.

Speaker 5 (09:12):
Hitler managed to assassinate the Furor late.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
He did, Holly, he did very successfully. Right. So that's
what I would warn you, regardless of how you feel,
that any fascist group who takes over will treat you
exactly like they'll treat everybody else, and that is not good. Right.
We have a look at what's going on in America

(09:35):
at the moment, and you can see how a wanna
be dictator has effectively started to utilize systems of the
government to essentially export to deport people who shouldn't be deported.
A lot of them are citizens some of them are
born in America, so they had guaranteed citizenship which we

(09:57):
don't actually have here in Australia, and they're shipping them
out of the country very very quickly. There are arresting
judges who stand to finally against those moves. It can
happen here, be very very careful, all right now. So
that's our little bit of topical discussion without any further ado, Holly,

(10:18):
let's get into it. Let's wrap up Gallipoli and then
let's talk about Antac Day, take it away.

Speaker 5 (10:23):
At approximately four thirty am on April twenty fifth, nineteen fifteen,
the Australian Third Brigade successfully landed as part of the
covering force. However, due to a navigation era, they landed
about two kilometers north of their intended location, making the
landing significantly more difficult than expected. The steep terrain and
the entrenched Ottoman forces occupying the high ground gave the

(10:45):
enemy a clear advantage.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Between four thirty am and four forty five am, the
third Australian Brigade, the ninth Queensland, tenth South Australian, eleventh
Western Australian and twelfth Tasmania with South Australia and Western
Australia Battalions and the third Field Ambulance landed on Gallipoli
around Erie Bernou Point. Charles ban Australia's official correspondent during

(11:10):
the war, who went on to become Australia's official historian
of the war, said that all the evidence available indicated
that the first Australian on shore at Challipoli was Lieutenant
Duncan Chapman of the ninth Battalion, Queensland from Brisbane. Chapman
survived the Gallipoli campaign, but he was killed in action
at Pusaes in France on the eighth of August nineteen sixteen.

(11:33):
At four thirty a m. Troops of the British twenty
ninth Division began landing at beaches on Cape Hellas at
the tip of the Gallipoli Peninsula, while further north Australian
troops landed at Ery Bernie. French forces launched a feint
against Kale on the Dardanell's southern shore. By the end
of the day, strong Turkish counter attacks confined the British

(11:54):
to two small pockets of land on the tip of
the peninsula, at Cape Hellas and the aneas the New
Zealanders landed later in the day, were a strip of
rugged country overlooking ery Bernou. Both sides suffered heavy casualties.
Quote from timeline of Australians and the Gallipoli Campaign ANZAC
Portal Department Effecturan Affairs, sixth of the December twenty twenty four.

Speaker 5 (12:17):
The Australians attempted to push forward and they managed to
drive the Ottomans off for a brief time, allowing the
ANZACs to dig in at the bases of the cliffs.
There it was harder for the Ottomans to aim at them.
The terrain was unfamiliar and bad maps made it even
more difficult for them to maneuver. This didn't make a difference, however,
as their backup and supplies still needed to cross the
beach to get to them. Despite these obstacles, the Australians

(12:40):
advanced in smaller, scattered groups, eventually reaching the second ridge.
This dispersed approach made it harder to cover the wide
front effectively, and the soldiers found themselves fighting on uneven ground,
constantly under threat from Ottoman fire.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Correspondent on board HMS Triumph Rights we entered dartan Els
in the seventy five open fire on the Turkish trenches
at the western end of Gallipoli at the range of
seven thousand yards. After half an hour, the triumph changed
her position, whereupon howitzer battery on the Asiatic shore dropped
sixteen shells in the space of fifteen minutes, of which

(13:15):
three struck the warship, wounding two men in inflicting trifling damage.
The Triumphs silenced the howitzers in a few minutes and
the men resumed the bombardment of the trenches. Quote from
the Newcastle Morning Herald minus Advocate, Tuesday, the twenty seventh
of April nineteen fifteen, page five, silencing the guns.

Speaker 5 (13:35):
By five am, the bulk of the First Australian Division
had reached the shore and began pushing in land. The
landings were chaotic as the soldiers had become entangled with
the New Zealand and Australian troops who were also landing nearby.
The First and Second Brigades, along with the New Zealand Division,
found themselves caught in the same struggle, unable to form
a cohesive front.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Closer to the shore, the men from the twelfth Battalion
or the third Field ambulance climbed from the ribble into
the lifeboats thirty apiece. Among them was John Simpson, who
would soon become a legend as the Man with the Donkey.
The boats cast off and were towed under fire by
a launch. Then the men rode the final distance to
the beach. They were close behind the first troops to land.

(14:16):
The boats from the d'varnan carried men to the extreme
left of the covering forces front. There are a few
casualties on the way. Once the troops had clambered from
the boats, each one was rowed back to the destroyer
to pick up more men. After the landing, the Devna
was converted to a hospital ship, and the following months
her boats would make the journey between ship and shore
many more times. Quote from Dawn of the Legend the

(14:38):
Landing Boat, Australian War Memorial, thirty first of October twenty nineteen.
And yes, I am aware, I'm going to get some
of these pronunciations wrong. I apologize pronunciations. Pronunciations, pronunciate, announciate, announciate.
People get very upset with the way I say pronounce.

Speaker 5 (14:57):
We're Australian mate. We don't say words right. When the
sun rose at about five forty am on April twenty fifth,
an hour or so after the landing, the chaos and
horror of the battlefield was revealed to all the combatants.
The once dark and uncertain landscape of what is now
anzac Cove had become a brutal, unforgiving theater of war.
Soldiers who had scrambled ashore in the dark found themselves

(15:19):
exposed to a withering fire from Ottoman forces entrenched on
the high ground above them. The steep, rocky terrain that
had seemed like a mere obstacle in their initial plans
now became a deadly trap, with little cover and no
clear path forward. Amidst the smoke, confusion and the cries
of the wounded, men fought to gain any ground, their
progress hampered not only by the fierce resistance, but by

(15:42):
the unforgiving nature of the landscape. The beach, which had
once been a potential staging point for a bold advance,
now became a deadly choke point, with many of the
soldiers finding themselves trapped under fire or pinned down by
the enemy's well placed artillery and rifle shots. The sheer
scale of the calamity was more than any of them
had imagined. The optimism and determination that the Australians had

(16:03):
carried with them from the country seemed at that moment
to be swallowed up by the brutality of the war
that they had entered.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
Twenty sixth of April nineteen fifteen, by three am, more
than seventeen hundred casualties had been evacuated from the area
of the Anzac landing, mainly lying the beach to the
south of Ari Burnu, which later became known as Anzac Cove.
Quote from Timeline of Australians and the Gallipoli Campaign, Anzac Portal,
Department of Veterans Affairs, sixth of December twenty twenty four.

Speaker 5 (16:33):
By six am on April twenty fifth, the intermittent fire
of a Turkish artillery signaled the commencement of the true assault.
To the forces of the Ottoman Empire, which had not
yet responded, It became clear that the attack was not
a diversion, but the beginning of an all out engagement.
In the chaos, two battalions of the Ottoman's twenty seventh
Infantry Regiment were sent straight to Aribernu. Meanwhile, at Bellari Sandez,

(16:56):
a key commander of the British Forces, believed the assault
would land with d him as some Antente ships had
been spotted nearby. The Antente was the French word for Allied.
That's how he can tell whether they're talking about World
War One or World War Two, whether they use Allies
or Antente.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yeah. So if they say the Ntente forces, they're talking
about World War One. If they're talking about the Allies,
they're talking about World War two.

Speaker 5 (17:18):
Yes. Sandez remained there for two days with the fifth Division,
convinced that the assault was a diversion and his backup
would be there soon. By mid morning on April twenty fifth,
Turkish commander Mustafa Kamal had reorganized his forces and was
preparing to mount a fierce defense from the heights of Shunka,
Beer and Sabier. He could observe the Australians progress, and

(17:40):
the Ottoman resistance began to solidify. Despite their early success,
the Australians were now facing well entrenched defenders on the
high ground and the outcome of their efforts was becoming
increasingly uncertain.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Modern Turkey's greatest leader, Mustafa Kamal, had a significant part
in the fighting on Gallipoli on the twenty fifth of
April nineteen fifth Dean commanding the nineteenth Turkish Division, He
brought his troops up quickly to reinforce the Anzac area
where Australian troops were coming ashore and pushing on up
the slopes. He met the enemy in the hills, held
them retook the high ground. Largely owing to him and

(18:15):
his command, the Australian and New Zealand forces were contained.
The landing force failed to reach its objectives. Quote from
Dawn of the Legend Mustafa Kamal, Australian War Memorial, thirty
first of October twenty nineteen.

Speaker 5 (18:29):
The Staffa would later go on to become the first
President of Turkey when it became a republic after the war.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
I believe he was also instrumental in helping to set
up the war memorial for the Australians who were buried there. Right, yes, he,
I believe he started that, and to their credit, the
Turks have kept the site sacred and they have protected
the Australian remains that have been there since the war.

(18:55):
Because at the end of the day, once everything is
said and done, unsettled, we go back to being people
humans again.

Speaker 5 (19:02):
By ten thirty am, the Australians right flank had been
pushed back with significant casualties. As the day wore on,
the fighting intensified. By nine pm, the AE two the
submarine surface again to recharge its batteries and report back
to the fleet. This brief respite, however, was short lived,
as it would soon be forced to dive once more
to avoid detection. As the day came to a close,

(19:24):
the Australian's left flank collapsed under the sustained Ottoman counter attacks,
forcing a retreat. Despite the Navy's initial insistence that the
retreat was impossible, orders were given for the ANZACs to
fall back. The soldiers had fought valiantly, but their position
was untenable, and the operation that had been planned for
such a long time had become a chaotic battle for survival.
The failure to achieve the desired objectives on April twenty

(19:46):
fifth would set the tone for the rest of the campaign,
and the ANZACs determination to hold the ground would be
tested in the coming months. And now let's set the
scene a little bit here. So you've spent a whole
day fighting to get up a hill, only to be
called back into retreat because all of your friends to
your left and your right have died and you're now
being basically encircled.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
And it's even worse than that wholly, because you're finding
yourself in the very first battle that an Australian has
ever fought. When I say that, I don't mean in
the sense that people who have lived in Australia have
never fought a war up until this point. What I
mean is that in nineteen oh one Australia became federated,

(20:27):
that became the country of Australia, and so the various
states were turned into a country. So they consider World
War One and this particular campaign to be what's called
a baptism of fire. You don't get to become a
country until you fight in a war. So the fact
that the Australian troops, as Australians for the first time,

(20:48):
were fighting together for their country. They had to lose
that first battle and you can only imagine how that
must have felt.

Speaker 5 (20:57):
We have another quote here.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
First casualties from Gallipla reached number one Australian General Hospital,
Heliopolis on April twenty nine. Sister Constant Keyes Australian Army
Nursing Service wrote, I don't know if the news is
known in Queensland yet, but the greatest number of men
we came over with that were either killed or wounded.
The whole battalion was practically cut to pieces. The hospital

(21:21):
train came in right behind the palace, nine long carriages
painted white with the Egyptian star and crescent on the side.
Quote from Timeline of Australians and the Gallipoli Campaign and
ZAC Portal, Department of Veterans Affairs, sixth of December twenty
twenty four.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
The entrenched Ottoman forces had a clear view of the
beach and quickly overwhelmed the Australian troops as they landed.
Many soldiers were cut down before even reaching the shore.
In the terrain, steep cliffs and rocky outcrops made it
almost impossible to advance. The Australians took shelter in whatever
cover they could find, often separating from their units. Determined
to hold their ground, they were soon struck by the

(21:59):
severe heat and unsanitary conditions in the trenches. Dysentery spread
rapidly and poor rations were quickly exhausted, leaving the men
to subsist on stale biscuits dubbed dog biscuits and tinned meat.
Now fans of fantasy and military dramas will understand when
I say the word hardtack as the biscuit of choice
for World War One. These biscuits were so enduring that

(22:22):
the War Memorial currently has a collection of them that
were turned into tablets for writing on painting easels, shopping
lists because I don't know why they wanted to go
shopping in the middle of the Dardenells. And you could
still eat those biscuits today, one hundred and something years
after the conflict.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
When ships used to get shipwrecked, they would often survive
on hardtack, and in order to eat the hard tack,
they would often dip it in the salt water, which
in itself caused even more problems for people when they
were shipwrecked. It's basically fiber bricks, the best way I

(23:00):
can describe it.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
I'm pretty sure it's oats and something else just compressed
to shit.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
And it's dried out. It's not particularly nice. The other
thing they're eating, of course, was known as bully beef.
I don't know about you, Holly, but when they used
to do our school assemblies. Around Anzac time, they would
often talk about the bully beef and they would pull
out a tin of I think it was usually they'd

(23:27):
have a substitute like spam.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
Bully beef is kind of like spam, but pork. You
use beef and there's a lot of salt in it.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
So if you can think about it from that perspective,
they're eating hard bricks of whatever, you know, fibrous oats
or whatever they had that they were making the bricks
out of, and salted beef, so as you can imagine,
gum disease, potential of scurvy. All of these sort of
things were also adding to a shopping list of problems

(24:02):
that the Australian troops were facing in their first campaign.

Speaker 5 (24:06):
All of that under the wonderful, wonderful Turkey sheet with
the general average being somewhere around twenty five twenty six.
But that's not accounting for the fact that you're not
in the shade.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, so you've got poor nutrition, you're suffering from gum disease.
The Turkish sun is dehydrating you while you shoot yourself
to death. Welcome to war, everybody. It's not glorious. It's
not fun.

Speaker 5 (24:29):
Welcome to the poor man's part of war.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, this is you know, the war. We often are
champions of the working class. This is what it looks
like for actual soldiers, you know. So when you have
the generals who are nice and safe in their little tents,
always you know, steak dinner's grand standing, carrying on talking
about how great everything is, they're sending people into these situations.

(24:52):
It's very easy for politicians to send people to war.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
You know.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Again, I don't like to bring him out too much,
but you look at Donald Trump and the way he
talk about warfare and things like that. People like him
never go to war, big fat saxic crap like him,
never go to war.

Speaker 5 (25:06):
Rich, big fat sax of crap. The ANZACs endured months
of this shit, entrenched in a deadlock with the Ottoman forces. Disease, hunger,
and the constant threat of death took a heavy toll.
By mid nineteen fifteen, the battle had settled into a
war of attrition. The men faced unbearable conditions, with dysentery
and cholera exacerbating their physical suffering. The lack of fresh

(25:27):
food contributed to malnutrition, while scurvy and other illnesses spread
The soldier's resilience was tested as they were fought against
not only the enemy but also the elements disease, and
a deteriorating sense of morale. The soldiers also faced underappreciated
hardships like poor dental care. The lack of nutrition and
hygiene led to the rapid dental decay, forcing the few

(25:49):
military dentists available to work in makeshift conditions to extract
teeth and treat infections, which was basically greet your teeth.
I'm about to.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Pull the thing about gum disease and tooth decay, abscesses,
things like that. I don't know the signs behind it.
You'd have to consult the internet or your doctor or dentist,
But I do believe that infection in the teeth at
around the gums increases your chances of heart disease. The

(26:19):
other side of it as well, is that the bacteria
can get into the bloodstream and then your blood term
septic and then you die as well, So sepsis is
also a problem.

Speaker 5 (26:29):
The bacteria can also get into the bone and start
rotting the daw inside your face.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, you you kind of fucked.

Speaker 5 (26:35):
As Gallipoli dragged on the expected swift victory turned into
a costly stalemate. The Ottomans, despite heavy losses, held their ground,
while the Inzacs, caught in a war of attrition, began
discussing the possibility of evacuation without appearing defeated. In August
nineteen fifteen, a final attempt to break the deadlock came
with the August Defensive. This poorly coordinated operation aimed to

(26:58):
seize the Surrey Bear, offering a strategic advantage to push
forward to the Turkish supply lines. The offensive, planned by
British and Anzac commanders, was meant to be the turning point,
but poor planning and communication doomed it, which means that
it was probably mainly run by the British. The Australians,
New Zealanders and British were tasked with attacking the Sari

(27:19):
Bear heights, dominated by rugged terrain and entrenched Ottoman defenders.
The Australians launched the first wave on August sixth, aiming
to capture Channock Beer and Hill nine seven to one.
The first and second Australian brigades advanced on the southern end,
with the New Zealanders in the center and the British
forces to the north.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
At two thirty PM at Heller's elements of the British
twenty ninth Division attacked towards a feature known as the Vineyard.
This attack, like that by the Australians at Loan Pine
at Anzac, was aimed at holding down Turkish reinforcements from
the main thrust of the August offensive. The night march
up the Seri Bear Ranged to the Chinuck Bear and

(27:57):
Heild nine seven to one and the Britishish landings at
Suvla Bay. Little progress was made in the Vineyard attack
and the British eighty eighth Brigade lost over two thousand men,
along with Australian, New Zealand and British units. The twenty
ninth Indian Brigade, the fourteenth Sikhs and the fifth and
sixth and eighteenth Gurkha Rifles made their way from the
North Beach into the Seri Bear Range and up towards

(28:20):
Chinuck Bear and other peaks. At five point thirty PM,
units of the First Australian Division attacked Turkish trenches at
Lone Pine. At six PM, the Turkish front line at
Loan Pine fell to the Australians and fish Turkish counter
attacks began. Quote from Timeline of Australians and the Gallipoli Campaign,
ANZAC Portal, Department of Veterans Affairs, sixteenth and December twenty

(28:41):
twenty four.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
Now, Matthew, you have a particular admiration for some of
those units.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Ah, yes, I do. The Gurkha troops are world renowned
for their hand to hand combat, especially their knife work,
and the Sikhs I have a particular respect for. The
Sikhs have never worn helmets or any protection around their heads.
That's due to their religion. As a young man grows,

(29:09):
he cannot cut his hair and so puts it into
a turban. Sikhs are by their nature extremely loyal, trustworthy
individuals who will go out of their way to help
their community and people around them. So it is exceptionally
brave in that sort of war to not be wearing

(29:30):
anything on your head, to not even have a helmet
to potentially protect you from a stray bullet. So yeah,
two incredible fighting forces.

Speaker 5 (29:40):
The Australians assigned to capture Chunnik bear face fierce resistance
pretty much immediately. The terrain was treacherous, with steep ridges
and little cover from constant Ottoman fire. By midday, the
attack had stalled and progress was minimal. Poor reconnaissance and
communication between brigades worse than the situation, leaving the soldiers
exposed to relentless Ottoman counter attacks. The third Australian brigade,

(30:04):
under Major General William Throsby Bridges, was ordered to make
the final push for Chenek Bear, but faced well entrenched
Ortoman defenders instead. By the end of the day, little
ground had been gained, with heavy casualties. On August seven,
the New Zealanders, advancing towards Hill nine seven one, encountered
similar resistance. Despite repeated attempts, they were unable to break

(30:25):
the Ottoman line and had to retreat, suffering high casualties.
The lack of coordination between the Australian and New Zealand
forces further hindered the operation. Their disjointed attacks and lack
of support led to easy repulsion by the Ottomans. The
British forces assigned to attack the northern end of the
range also made no significant progress, adding to the failure.

(30:45):
By August eight, the offensive had stalled completely. The Australians
and New Zealanders were no longer able to mount a
coherent attack, and the Ottomans had regained control of most
of the high ground. The death toll was staggering, with
thousands of casualties on both sides. Dans in particular suffered heavily,
with over two thousand men killed or wounded during the
failed assault. Their attempt to seize control of the Saribear

(31:08):
Range had failed, and the dead locker Gallipoli remained unbroken.
The disastrous results of the offensive further strained the relationship
between the Australian forces and their British commanders, a relationship
which continued to break down as we entered World War II.
Many Australians began to question the competence and leadership of
the British officers in charge of the campaign. The failure

(31:28):
of the August defensive, combined with the heavily losses. The
failure of the August defensive, combined with the heavy losses
sustained throughout the campaign, led to a growing sense of
disillusionment among the ANZACs.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
And I mean that is carried on through to this day.
It is one of the defining features of Australia, separating
itself from the British and the British officers continued to
fail throughout World War I and of course World War II.
During World War II, as we've mentioned, when we covered
a lot of stories from the Pacific Camp Pain, specifically

(32:02):
episodes on Kukota, it was mentioned by the British that
there is no way the Japanese could mount any sort
of offensive, you know, they're just not racially superior enough
to us in order to do that. And then of
course the Japanese kick their absolute asses in Singapore. Never ever,

(32:23):
never underestimated an enemy. The day you do is the
day that they're going to kick your ass. And so yes,
this is definitely the beginning of the end of the
Australian British relationship to the point now these days where
it's nearly nonexistent. In fact, you know, there are many
people I think who at this point to not particularly

(32:44):
concern whether Australia has a monarchy or not.

Speaker 5 (32:47):
I think Australia's love of the monarchy honestly died with
Queen Elizabeth.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
And we would not should there be another war, which
is always a possibility, Australian troops would not be under
the supervision or orders of British troops or British officers anymore,
or American No, we conduct our own military independently now
to a certain extent. I mean, you work with our

(33:11):
allies on joint see counters. Make a generalized statement, otherwise
I'll get like fifteen emails telling me I'm wrong. Of course,
there are missions where we work together, you know, the
Australian services working with the British Services, etc. Etc. There'll
always be potential for collaboration during war, but there is
certainly no longer a hierarchical chain of commands. You know,

(33:34):
if a British officer went up to an Australian officer
and started trying to tell him what to do today,
they would probably get a bit of a chewing out.

Speaker 5 (33:42):
Can at least be told to fuck off. The soldiers
who had initially looked to the British for leadership were
now realizing that they were on their own and that
their survival would depend on their own resolve and resourcefulness.
Thankfully for them, they were Australian and that's what we
do best. As the days turned to weeks. In the
weeks months, the Gallipoli campaign ground on, marked by a

(34:03):
seemingly endless cycle of attacks, counterattacks and entrench warfare. The
failure of the August offensive, coupled with the mounting casualties,
eventually led to the decision to evacuate the Anzac forces.
In October nineteen fifteen, the first notice that the Allies
were pulling up from Gallipoli was published in the newspaper
and reproduced in its totality.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
For you here Gallipoli. Turkish report that Allies will evacuate.
Turkish newspapers announced that Allies are preparing to evacuate Gallipoli.
That's a quote from the Golbin Evening Penny Post, Thursday,
the fourteenth of October nineteen fifteen, page one, Gallipoli.

Speaker 5 (34:41):
It wasn't even our own newspapers that reported at first,
it was the Turkish which makes me wonder whether it
was a bit of propaganda or whether it was actually
something that was.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Being discussed potentially an inevitable conclusion to the situation. The
Turks had won, they defended, and look say what you
will about who they were allied with. Again, World War
One was mostly for between royal cousins, but at the
end of the day, the Turkish were defending their home
and you would expect that Australians would defend their home

(35:09):
in exactly a similar manner.

Speaker 5 (35:11):
Kakoda you know. The campaign, which began with optimism, ended
in defeat and tragedy for the soldiers who fought hard
for victory. The August offensive light the rest of the
Gallipoli Campaign became one of the most costly and futile
operations of the First World War. The failure of the
offensive made a change in strategy inevitable. By late nineteen fifteen,

(35:33):
the Gallipoli Campaign had become unsustainable and evacuation was imminent.
In December nineteen fifteen, the ANZACs pulled out under the
cover of darkness with minimal casualties. The operation was carefully
planned and executed with a withdrawal despite difficult conditions, considered
a success compared to the chaos of earlier fighting.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
An enthusiastic scene was witnessed at the local railway station
this morning when a number of wounded soldiers passed through
in the express yes after breakfast. The men were addressed
by mister A Duncan, president of the Progress Association. He
complimented them upon their gallant and so of arms which
had been performed. He said he was sad to see
so many empty sleeves. It would be a pity if

(36:15):
the Australians had to evacuate Gallipoli after so many lives
had been lost, but he was sure the Australians would
win in the end. Cheers were given for the soldiers.
Quote from the Journal, Thursday, fourteenth of October nineteen fifteen
at page one Cheers and murray.

Speaker 5 (36:29):
Bridge do evacuation mark the end of the Anzac campaign
on the peninsula. For the soldiers it was a bit
of sweet victory. Though they survived, many were haunted by
the losses they had endured, having been abandoned on a
foreign shore. They now left the missioning complete, but their
sacrifice left an indelible mark on the land, symbolizing their

(36:50):
struggle and unwavering will.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
You may wonder, perhaps why the red poppy it's become
a symbol of remembrance date, especially the eleventh of the eleventh,
and the reason for that being is now correct me
if I'm wrong about this legend, hoy, But the first
flowers to bloom after the battlefield started to heal itself

(37:12):
was the poppy. And the idea is that these red
poppies were germinated by the blood of the soldiers that
had leaked into the soil. Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (37:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (37:22):
They were read because of the blood.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
The Gallipoli Campaign would go on to define the Australian
military legacy, becoming an essential part of the nation's consciousness
for generations. Despite the failure in military strategy, it fostered
a unique sense of national pride and unity that shaped
Australia's identity. The Anzac spirit forged in the fires of
Gallipoli would live on in the hearts of those who
fought there and in all Australians who followed. As a

(37:49):
campaign drew to a close, the soldiers began their long
journey back. Though the physical toll of battle would linger,
the evacuation was one of the few successes amid the
campaign's failures, including a few of Australia's more innovative ideas
put to good use.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
On the nineteenth of July nineteen fifteen, Scurry enlisted in
the Australian Imperial Force, joining the seventeenth Battalion on Gallipoli
in November nineteen fifteen. By this time, the ANZACs had
been on the peninsula for more than seven months and
have been unable to break through the Turkish lines. To
make matters worse, the winter was seeing in with storms
and cold winds, and the decision was made to evacuate

(38:25):
the troops. The challenge was how to withdraw from Gallipoli
without alerting the Turks. Military commanders thought thousands Vanzaks would
be killed in the evacuation as the attrenches were so
close to the Turks retreating for the battle. Situation could
place the troops in a dangerous position. Scurry had an
idea to make an ordinary rifle fire automatically without human assistance,

(38:46):
using a system of tins, string and water. The dripping
water from one tin would fill in a lower tin,
eventually pulling on the triggerer of the rifle and firing
it without a soldier being there. The biggest drawback in
this idea for Willi was the availability of water. He
later wrote, very early in the experiments, I came to
a stop for all want of water. The only supply

(39:08):
I had was my own ration, which in those thirsty
times was one pint a day. Thankfully, Anzac Mayship came
to the fore. William recalled permission to go for the
beach for salt water was refused. An old school mate,
Private AHH. Lawrence, also the seventh, gave me a whole
quart he had drawn a double ration, which happened to
be available on condition that he drew none of the

(39:29):
next day. Stink of a thirsty man, cheerfully gone without
for another day quote from aw M two DRL seven.
Despite the setbacks, the project proceeded and on the nineteenth
and twentieth of December, the self firing drip rifles were
sent in the treaches. The remaining soldiers filled the tins

(39:50):
with water as they were leaving. William record hearing the
pop pop sound of firing rifles as they departed. Scurry
was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal and recognition his invention
was promoted to sergeant in January nineteen sixteen. Following his
service on Gallipoli. He served on the Western Front and
suffered wounds resulting in the blinding of his right eye.

(40:11):
On return to Australia, his disabilities prevented him from working
in the original occupation of architectural modler, and he struggled
to provide free his family. Wrote from William Scurry Australian
War Memorial, eighteenth March twenty twenty because despite what they'll
tell you about the legend of the ANZACs and the
respect that had to be given to them, at the
end of the day, most governments abandoned veterans, as they,

(40:34):
in my opinion, do to this day.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
While they didn't achieve their military objective, the withdrawal with
minimal casualties was a form of relief for those who
survived the Grimsdale mate. Leaving Gallipoli marked the end of
a dark chapter, though the emotional and psychological scars would remain.
By the time the ANZACs departed, nearly eight thousand Australian
soldiers had lost their lives, along with many New Zealanders

(40:57):
and British troops. The loss was staggering, but it was
the brutality of the battle, the constant hardship, that left
an indelible mark on the survivors. Some returned physically unscathed,
the most carried trauma that would affect them for the
rest of their lives.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Back in Australia, the heroic depiction of the aif in action,
told through popular stories and romantic images, often failed to
convey the gritty reality of the desperate fighting at Anzac,
where troops struggled to hold every meter of ground while
in enduring squalor and suffering heavy casualties. In school's, children
received reading books that told exciting stories of Gallipoli. In

(41:33):
household support for the war was evident to the form
of colorful battle prints above mental pieces, newspaper supplements, postcards,
war maps, patriotic ceramics, commemorative where and simple domestic souvenirs. Eventually,
as enlistments and casually less grew, the personal consequences of
the fighting on Gallipoli intruded into the nation's homes, and

(41:54):
as the campaign ground to a dismal end, responses to
the war became increasingly sober and consider it quote from
Dawn of the Legend battle for the imagination, the.

Speaker 5 (42:05):
War had reshaped both the soldiers and the country they
returned to, which was now different from the one they
had left. Returned soldiers faced the challenge of reintegrating into
a society that, while proud of their sacrifices, struggled to
understand their trauma. Joel Shock later recognized as PTSD was
still poorly understood. Many men found it difficult to reconnect

(42:26):
with civilian life, especially given the psychological toll of Gliboli.
There was a scene that goes those who go to
war never really leave it, and this was especially true
for the First World War vets. A lot of them
got stuck in the trenches and never really came home.
They ended up drinking themselves to death, putting a rifle
in their mouth, doing all sorts of horrible things.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
I mean, I can speak to this. My great great
grandfather was British lieutenant, as Wholly discovered when she was
doing our family tree, and it makes a lot of
sense considering the story I heard about my great grandmother.
She was abusive. I would wager that her father was abusive,
and so that generational trauma also flowed on through to

(43:10):
my grandfather, who himself was abusive towards his children. And
so it took the you know, the many generations of
separation before there was finally a generation born in my
family that was for the most part free from abuse.
And so I will endeavor to make sure that that
cycle doesn't continue myself, as will my siblings of course,

(43:33):
and my cousins. That is one of the truths of war.
It's saying that people don't like to talk about. There
is a complexity to these sort of situations that people
don't want to talk about, and I'll explain why. It's
simply put, the legend is always better than the real story,
and when the legend is more exciting and interesting, you

(43:54):
print the legend, not the truth. The soldiers came back,
they were a bandoned and which was the style at
the time, let's face it. But you can also draw
parallels to what happens today. You know, we throw people
into the meat grinder, it spits them out, and then
we expect them to function like everyday humans. And as
someone who is now into my second semester of studying

(44:18):
human psychology, let me tell you emphatically that these things
don't just disappear overnight. There are many veterans who do
listen to this podcast, and I'm sure life isn't easy
for you if you saw action, and it's a terrible,
terrible thing that people have to go out there and
witness these sort of atrocities. But yeah, speaking from my
own personal experience within my own family, I can tell

(44:38):
you right now that yeah, some of them didn't they
didn't come home. They brought the war back with them,
and you know, through no fault of their own I mean,
it's just no Look, I can do an entire podcast
now on trauma and cognitive therapy and behavioralism, and your
brains will melt out of your ears. We won't go

(45:00):
into it too much.

Speaker 5 (45:01):
I'll save that for Matthew's Mad Minutes.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
But that is just the person personally experienced and how
it relates to my family.

Speaker 5 (45:10):
A lasting consequence of the Gallipoli Campaign was the creation
of the Anzac legend, which made at home long before
the soldiers did. It birth the new identity for Australians,
whose enthusiasm for it waxes and wanes over the decades.
The Anzac spirit, defined by courage, matship and resilience, became
central to the commemoration of Anzac Day on April twenty fifth,

(45:32):
a sacred occasion to one of those who fought and
died in the war Gallipoli, both tragic and heroic, came
to civilize Australia's coming of age, but the reverence for
Gallipoli didn't mask the disillusionment that many soldiers felt after Gallipoli.
Many of them were sent to the Western Front, where
even deadly horrors awaited, such as chlorine gas, mustard gas,

(45:52):
things like that, Gallipoli marked the beginning of a long
conflict that deepened the psychological scars. Of the soldiers felt betrayed,
questioning whether their sacrifice had been worth it given the
campaign's futility. While the ANZACs were lauded as heroes, the
transition to civilian life was difficult, with soldiers often haunted
by not only mental issues, but dental issues, dysentery, and

(46:16):
the emotional weight of war. We have an extract from
a letter here sent.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Corporal Joseph Slack, MM question Mark, a Company, fifteenth Battalion,
one of the original ANZACs, between three or four months
ago he got some money and again the drink was
the cause of trouble. Believe had a fight, with the
result that he was taken to the Brisbane Hospital and
was there some weeks. When he was getting better, the
medical officer advised him to go to a home for

(46:43):
soldiers at Dunwich, which there were nurses and doctors, plenty
of fishing, and three months holiday there would set him
up again. When he got down to Dunwich he found
instead of it being a rest home, he had signed
on for three months at the Home for inebriates at Dunwich.
Unfortunately I'm not able to get down to Dune which
to see mister Slack. But my daughter writes every week

(47:04):
and sends him newspapers. But he does not write back
without reason that all correspondence inward and outward has been
censored by the medical or other officer. Is this a
fair deal for the men who had fought and bled
for us? Missus Hutchinson and her stepdaughter have visited Corporal
Slack several times have done, which tell me how very
depressing it is for these brave returned heroes suffering from

(47:27):
shell shock to see the open graves, the funerals, the
miserable racks of humanity. Surely, with all their faults, those
who have so normally fought for us deserve much better
treatment than this quote from letter from mister S. Pukinson
to Senator m Read Treatment of returned soldiers suffering shell shock.
National Archives of Australia, October nineteen eighteen.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
Despite the lack of psychological support, ANZAC dayy came away
for Australians to reflect on the service and reaffirm national
values like exidience, matship and duty. The Gallipoli legacy continued
to shape the national identity. Even as time passed. Veterans
became a source of pride, but their suffering was often overlooked.
The psychological toll of the war, particularly PTSD, remained largely misunderstood,

(48:16):
with many returning soldiers finding little support. The wartime hardships,
including poor rations and field dental care, became part of
the narrative of survival. John Simpson Kirkpatrick, or as the
soldiers around him had actually called him Murphy. He and
his donkeys became a symbol of the Anzac spirit, representing
selflessness and maetship. His sacrifice underscored the values that Australians

(48:40):
held dear service, solidarity, heroism. Before we read this next quote, Matthew,
what do you know of the legend of Simpson and
his Donkey?

Speaker 1 (48:48):
I remember the basics from when I was in school,
and that that was that Simpson was part of the
military ambulance service, that he had a donkey with him,
and that they would go through the battlefield picking up
wounded soldiers and returning them back to the field hospital.
He was often described as a very brave man and

(49:10):
then eventually a Turkish bullet took him out, which was
not meant to happen as they were wearing the Red
Cross of the nursing Unit, but unfortunately he did get killed.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
That's like the very very bare bones version of it.
So what I've done is I've.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Actually the propaganda version of it, the.

Speaker 5 (49:29):
New South Wales Department of Education version of it. I've
actually gone through the newspapers and found firsthand account of
someone who served with him. So here's Matthew to read
it for it.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
John Simpson Kirkpatrick killed in Trapnel Gully. Murphy, as he'll
always be remembered by ANZACs, was born at tyne Dock, England.
He enlisted from Western Australia in the field Ambulance and
at Anzac. His work consisted of first aid and stretcher
bearing carried on as indeed all occupants were there under
fire of a heavy kind, particularly always a number of

(50:00):
Turkish mules were captured one day and Murphy an x
two of them which he needed Duffy one and Duffy
two through shell fire and raffle fire. There After, Murphy,
with one or both of his mules, carried wounded men
from field to proper dressing stations, often as meet as
twenty eight day His work, however, was ended by a
bullet which found his heart during the fierce Turkish attack

(50:22):
on the nineteenth of May nineteen fifteen. Murphy had traverse
Shrabneal Gully four times that day with wounded and he
was returning on the fit trip when as he rounded
the famous point called the Bloody Angle, machine gun bullet
stomped him. Quote from the river in a Herald Monday,
nineteenth of November nineteen seventeen, page three, Real Murphy of Anzac.

Speaker 5 (50:43):
So the symbol of Anzac solidarity, the symbol that we
all know, lasted twenty four days in combat. He represents
eight thousand Australians killed. What did you do the last
twenty four days?

Speaker 1 (50:55):
Stag boxes on shelves and record a couple of podcasts
and watch a few.

Speaker 5 (51:00):
I mean, I'd argue that educating Australians about Australia is
actually a pretty good thing to do.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
I would like to think we've done our a little bit.
I'm not not even going to think about comparing that
to the sacrifice of a soldier, but I do like
to think that we've at least helped people to think
about their country differently, to maybe approach the media differently,
to think about history in a broader context and.

Speaker 5 (51:21):
To appreciate the soldier's sacrifice.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Well, I certainly didn't go out and rescue people from
the battlefield with my donkey to.

Speaker 5 (51:30):
Your captured donkey. The mythology of Gallipoli evolved over time,
with Anzac Day becoming a celebration of Australian identity, though
the gap between the idealized version of the soldiers and
the reality of their suffering grew with each passing year.
For the surviving veterans, disillusionment was palpable. As the war continued,
the strain on families, communities, and the nation grew. Despite

(51:53):
efforts to support returning soldiers, psychological care was insufficient, and
many struggled to adjust to civilian life after Gallipoli and
the Western Front. Yet Gallipoli's legacy continued to shape Australia's
military culture. The bravery of the ANZACs became a touchstone
for future generations endo call to arms during subsequent conflicts,
particularly World War II. The Anzac legend remained alive in memorials, commemorations,

(52:18):
and in the way Australians viewed themselves. The nation scarred,
but unified behind this idealized image of the Australian soldier
not just servling in Gliboli but in the Western Front two.
And of course, over the years, the legend of the
eighteen year old white guy in army fatigues has expanded
to cover all the roles that were previously underrepresented in
the legend. The women who acted as nurses in active

(52:39):
war zones, the foreigners who aided the Australians as they
worked their warcraft, the first nation soldiers who were silenced
from history, basically the non British descent men, and other
people that originally never got the recognition they deserved.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
On April twenty fifth, nineteen sixteen, small ceremonies were held
around the world and throughout Australia to commemorate the Anzac's
entrance into the war and the lines of their fallen comrades.
The details of these first Anzac services are slim, but
historians suggest that services may have taken place in Albany
and Western Australia, and Brisbane and Rockhampton in Queensland, as

(53:17):
well as on the Western Front. There are also reports
of a small service in Egypt, where the ANZAC forces
have been training before being summoned to Gallipoli earlier one year.
All sporting games on Anzac Day were prohibited for by
forty four years after the first Anzac Day in nineteen sixteen.
The ban was lifted in nineteen fifty eight on the
condition that games would start in the late afternoon so

(53:39):
as not to interfere with ANZAC services, and participating in
sport clubs would donate to an ANZAC Day proceed's fund.
The first matches were held in nineteen sixteen. On the
twenty fifth of April nineteen eighty one, a group of
about five hundred protesters, mostly women, marched toward ANZAC parading camera.
At the head of the procession, women held a banner

(54:01):
which read in memory of all women of all countries
raped in all Wars. More than sixteen women were arrested
by police. On the twenty fifth and April nineteen ninety
Bob Hawk became the first Australian politician to visit Gallipoli
in what historians see as a major milestone in the
recovery of the day. In the hope of drumming up

(54:23):
some nationalism in Australia and a boost in the polls,
Hawk decided that the government would pay to take Anzac
veterans to Gallipoli for the seventy fifth and anniversary of
the Dawn Landing. Quote from the Evolution of Anzac Day
from nineteen fifteen until today by Johanna Kahan.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
In the last thirty years, and as the ANZACs themselves
are perished, the Anzac myth has faced a corruption, with
some using it to further nationalist or political agendas. What
was once a symbol of sacrifice and matship has for
some been twisted into a tool for promoting militaristic nationalism,
often detached from the original values of the soldiers who
fought at Gallipoli. As the Anzac spirit has been commodified,

(55:03):
its focus has shifted from the shared experiences of courage, loss,
and solidarity to something more rigid and exclusionary. The emphasis
on the heroic sacrifice of the ANZACs has for some
become more about glorifying war and melitarism than about the
humanity and human cost at the heart of the original story.
And that's not to mention the infiltration of Branzac Day activities.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
The centenary commemorations of World War One gave rise to
a certain number of questionable Anzac marketing campaigns, the most
notorious of which was Willworth's Fresh in Our Memories campaign
in twenty fifteen. I've forgotten about this till you put
it in the script only. The Australian supermarket Giant encouraged
Australians to contribute photos of people affected by war to

(55:49):
a pictured generator which would produce an image with their
campaign slogan and the War Worst logo overlaid. The powerful
criticism from the Australian public was immediate and unrelenting. The
pushbacks suggested a line had been crossed. People don't blink
an eye and the commercialization of Christmas and Easta but
still think that Anzac Day is sacred, said Carolyn, who

(56:09):
pointed out that Australia is spending more money on World
War One centenary commemorations than any other country. Quote from
the evolution of Anzac Day from nineteen fifteen until today,
Bonjo and Acahan, twenty fifth of April twenty seventeen. And
much like what I mentioned at the start of this episode,
neo Nazis are going to try and appropriate Anzac Day
in order to push their own agenda forgetting. Of course,

(56:32):
the World War II veterans put guns in the faces
of Nazis and happily pulled the trigger.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
Anzac Day has also become a day where people just
want the day off, to go down and go day
drinking at the pub at ten am. That flies directly
in the face of the World War I veterans who
came back and suffered rampant alcoholism as a symptom of
their shell shock, of their PTSD, of all the shit
that went wrong.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
It's very insulting.

Speaker 5 (57:01):
It's a massive insult and yes, thinking about it that way,
I don't understand why we've allowed it to happen.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
I mean the I mean, I can tell you, you know,
from again a psychological perspective here. People don't want complicated narrative.
People want simple ideas. So what's the simplest idea you
can present to a person? World War One soldiers were
always great, Australians were amazing and Zach's were incredible heroes,

(57:30):
and we honor them today by getting drunk. Now. I
would argue that a lot of people who go out
and new z Anzac Day as an excuse to binge
drink are going to binge drink no matter what excuse
you give them. I think there are more than enough
people who understand the nobility, the sacrifice, the heroism, and

(57:50):
who go to the dawn service and then go home.
But yeah, once you understand the historical context, it is
rather insulting to the memory of those veterans.

Speaker 5 (58:00):
I think next year we start a hashtag campaign walk
away for aans Act Day's people gone to the.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
Pubs dry Anzac Day.

Speaker 5 (58:07):
We'll walk away for ends Act Day is rhymes.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
That makes sense absolutely. The problem is, of course you're
going to be fighting advocacy groups, you know, like you're
going to be fighting against Republicans, You're going to be
fighting against bottle shops, You're going to be fighting against supermarkets.
It's not an easy fight and it's one where the
narrative can be twisted against you more often than not.
You know, we looked at what happened in New South Wales.

(58:31):
We mentioned this on a minisode. The New South Wales
government had decided to force essentially the closing of bottle
shops in order to try and stem a little bit
of that Anzact Day raucous behavior that is usually the
result of a bunch of people getting drunk at the
same time, this of course was shouted down by industry

(58:52):
groups who were very, very vested in bottle shops being
open on that day. Yeah, to this day, it's still
a very difficult situation. And the people who want to
continue to push that very easy narrative are also the
people who are pushing to get you into their pubs
to buy their plastic Australian flags and to drink to

(59:16):
your little hearts content.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
In political circles, the Anzac spirit has sometimes been co
opted to justify Australia's involvement in overseas conflicts, as though
the spirit of Gallipoli should somehow serve as a justification
for modern military interventionalism. The men who fought and died
it Glipoli did so not for political ideologies, but because
there were young men facing a brutal reality, an experience

(59:41):
rooted in survival and the shared hardship of war.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
I mean, you look at you know, modern warfare, and
while conflicts are getting smaller and smaller and smaller, aside
from what's going on between of course, the Ukraine and
the Russians, when you look at what Australian soldiers have
been asked to participate in over the last decade or so,
we've once again ended up sending young men and women overseas,

(01:00:05):
you know, to to risk their lives. And you know,
for the last couple of decades that's simply been at
the behest of America and their personal interest in whatever
they happen to be doing.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
Last couple of decades Vietnam.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Well that's what I mean. Like, actually, yeah, sixty years
fucking hell, more than a couple of christ right, so yeah,
more than a couple holy nearly half a century at
this point, more than more than stop it go away.
Everyone put your hands up if you want Holly to
go away for the rest of the podcast. Oh yeah,

(01:00:41):
it's not reminding us how old we all are. You know,
when you look at the last couple of decades in
modern conflict Iraq, Afghanistan, you can certainly see the Americans
point of view when going to war over the world
traits and attacks. But you've also got to you're going
to have a hard time record and stiling the results

(01:01:02):
of the War on Terror when you think how well
you know Iraq never had any weapons of mass destruction
or biological warfare. Nothing was ever found. And not to
say that Saddam didn't deserve what eventually happened to him,
as old despots do deserve that inevitable violent death.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
I would later what you said, they found oil, Yeah,
they found that was enough justification to stick around.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
You know, and under President Dick Cheney as that was,
he was the engineer of that plan. And Australia at
the behest of America sent troops over there to die,
to suffer trauma again and every time there seems to
be happening since World War One and World War II,
the justification for Australian soldiers on foreign soil at the

(01:01:52):
behest of America is be getting more and more thin
in order to justify, you know, us putting Australian lives
in danger for the sake of the American Empire. So
that's something to think about as well as times get
more and more complicated, and trust me, it's going to
get more complicated.

Speaker 5 (01:02:12):
To turn the ANZAC story into one of unreflective patriotism
risk diminishing the true legacy of their actions.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
I think it's a ritual for older traditional Australians who
have old values of Mayshire for galantarianism and loyalty says Martin,
adding the while older Australians hold on to Anzac Day
as a reaction against globalization, younger generations aren't as bothered.
Caroline disagrees, instead, arguing that it is young people who
are responsible for the resurgence, and it's among older people

(01:02:42):
that there is a big group of skeptics, the baby
boomers who were heavily influenced by Vietnam War protests. We
reach peak Anzac in twenty fifteen, sure, and there has
been some backing off since then in terms of the
Dawn Service and Anzac commemoration. It will remain huge for
a good while. Yet, says Caroline, is there's nothing better
to take its place in terms of a national mythology.

(01:03:04):
The Evolution of Anzac Day from nineteen fifteen until today
by Joanna Kahan, twenty fourth of April twenty seventeen. I
would say that's also a fair point to make. If
you look at Australia's history from the start to our
present time, what is there that gives us that sense
of national normal, pride, that togetherness that Anzac Day does.

(01:03:27):
I don't have an easy alternative to offer you, to
be frank.

Speaker 5 (01:03:31):
I don't think that until we actually go out and
win a war single handedly, I really don't think there's
going to be a national mythology that can replace it.
Like ned Kelly maybe, but altho.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Until Australia unifies more and we invest in ourselves, I
think it is difficult to find that national pride at
the moment. That's not to say that things can't change,
you know, I do foresee a future where Australia and
produce solar panels on Australian produce solar farms are exporting

(01:04:05):
energy to other countries. You know, I see Australia having
incredible potential, but we don't get to reach that potential until.

Speaker 5 (01:04:15):
You know, directing like colonies under one banner.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
We've got to stop acting as if we're a five
them under America is one of the biggest problems. We've
got to route out these want to be British elitists
like Tony Abbot, who will be the first to admit
when making this point that Tony Abbot was born in Britain.
Then you've got individuals like Scott Morrison. As soon as

(01:04:40):
he lost the Prime ministership, he ran straight into the
arms of corporate corporate Britain, which is, you know, organizing
projects for corporate USA. So in order for Australia to
reclaim our national pride, we need to start investing in ourselves.

Speaker 5 (01:04:59):
As he said at the at the start of this podcast.
Nationalist groups have at times appropriated the Anzac narrative as
a rallying cry, using the shared pride of Anzac Day
to reinforce exclusionary rhetoric and promote ideas of national superiority.
Think American exceptionalism if you want a direction, we're heading towards.

(01:05:21):
The symbolism of the Anzac soldier, which once transcended politics,
has been used by some to push narrow political agendas,
focusing on notions of Australian exceptionalism and often neglecting the
multicultural and inclusive nature of the nation that the soldiers
fought to protect. The Anzac Day marchers, which once brought
together people from all walks of life to honor the

(01:05:42):
sacrifice of their forebears, have been tainted by divisive political
rhetoric distracting from the original intent of remembrance, such as
booing welcome to country.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
It was Hawk's visit to Gallipoli on the occasion of
the seventy fifth anniversary of the Gallipoli landings that made
things turn. The meaning of the Anzactricace Hawk told those
gathered forged in the fires of Gallipoli must be learned
and knew from generation to generation. As a wise political
chief and one who could share a tear or two,
he suggested that the meaning of the tradition ken indua

(01:06:14):
only as long as each new generation of Australians finds
that their will to reinterpret it, to breathe, as it were,
new life into the old story and in separating the
truth from the legend, realize its relevance to a nation
and a people experiencing the immense change over the past
three quarters of a century. Contrary to Hawk's hope, the

(01:06:35):
truth from the legend has never been separated, as they
never are in the context of any religion. Faith and
denial papers over any disparity. What Hawk left in brick
Howard turned into marble and sinis to mythology. Anzac returned
to the cult of Maadship indebted to the country, and
it was to be exploited that or mentioned would be
made about political responsibility for war. The politician would extol

(01:06:58):
the creed and the rest would follow. Quote from Anzac
Legends still inspiring politicians to send Australians to the slaughter
Binroy kemper Kempermic, Independent Australia, twenty eighth of April twenty
twenty three.

Speaker 5 (01:07:13):
Perhaps the greatest tragedy of this corruption of the Anzac
spirit is that it risks overshadowing the human element of
the story. The true legacy of Gallipoli lies not in
how the soldiers are remembered in propaganda or political speeches,
but in the grief and resilience that continues to echo
through generations. The men who served from all walks of
life did so not for glory, but because they were

(01:07:34):
called to a cause greater than themselves. Their sacrifice should
never be reduced to a political tool. Instead, it should
be a reminder of the human cost of war, the
suffering of individuals, and the power of unity in the
face of seemingly insurmountable challenges.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
Beware, then, the warmongering Jingos perfumed in freedom loving garb,
they are bound to be the ones leading the country
to a blood soaked demise. And the Anzac legend has
become the ideal incubating vehicle for doing so built upon
the fiction of sacrificial debt rather than colossal, even criminal blunders.

(01:08:11):
Quote from Anzac legends still inspiring politicians to send Australians
to the slaughter binroy Kempermic Independent Australia, twenty eighth of
April twenty twenty three.

Speaker 5 (01:08:22):
As we reflect on Gliberally today, we must ensure that
we honor the Anzac spirit in its purest form by
remembering the sacrifices of the soldiers, not as mere symbols
of national pride, but as men who gave their lives
in service to something far larger than any political cause,
the belief that they were protecting their families. The Anzac
Day marches and commemorations should continue to be time for

(01:08:45):
all Australians to reflect on the shared sacrifice, the friendships,
and the collective grief of a nation that was irrevocably changed,
even when the men who fought have been gone for
decades already. It is only by preserving the true meaning
of gliberally that we can ensure the legacy of the
Ansacs remains one of the unity in the remembrance, not
one of division or political manipulation. Nationalism and exclusion.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Couldn't have put it better myself, Holly, that was very poignant.
There's a lot of moralizing in this episode. I understand that,
but I think that it is important that we reassess
the way that we view these things so that they're
not manipulated against us, so they're not turned into tools
of propaganda in order for terrible people to achieve power. Well,
lots to chew on, lots to think about there. I

(01:09:31):
hope we've prompted some discussion. Of course, if you'd like
to reach out to us, you can do so. You
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let you go, don't forget there are a few ways
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(01:09:53):
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(01:10:15):
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it so often, and as is our custom, Holly, we

(01:10:36):
give you the final words.

Speaker 5 (01:10:38):
So we ended last episode with a song that was composed,
written and performed during World War One, so we're gonna
leave out this one, as the band played Walton Matilda
by Eric Boggle from nineteen eighty also reflecting on World
War One.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
A fantastic choice, Holly, thank you so much for that,
well then said from the Week Crap In Australia podcast.
For another Ladies and gentlemen, please stay safe and be
kind to each other, and always remember that people do
push their agenda. We have to be very vigilant that
we don't succumb to it until next week. By for now, nay,

(01:11:18):
how well I remember the.

Speaker 4 (01:11:23):
Day our blood stained the sun and the water, and
the howling at her love the council we were butchered
like lands and the slaughter.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Johnny Turn he was waiting. He primed himself well.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
He showed us with bullets.

Speaker 3 (01:11:54):
And he rained us with shell and then fine minutes
that he'd blown us all nearly blew us right back
to Australia.

Speaker 4 (01:12:11):
But the band played once.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Until long when we started to bury our slang. We
buried ours and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:28):
The terms buried these, and we started all lone again.

Speaker 4 (01:12:39):
And those that were left.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
We tried to survive in that mad world of blood,
death and fire.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
The Weird Crap in Australia podcast is produced by Holly
and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown. If you've enjoyed
this podcast, please rate and review on your favorite podcatching
app