September 28, 2025 • 56 mins
Few scandals have shaken Australia’s justice system like the Lawyer X affair. At the center was a prominent barrister who secretly worked as a police informant, all while representing some of the country’s most notorious criminals. Her name was tied to dozens of figures on both sides of the law, leaving behind a trail of questions about loyalty, ethics, and justice.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO. They were last seen on the
beach with a tall man and that's the best description
police have ever had of it.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy a Beach, his widow has finally revealed
his last romantic words.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the YOWI.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's time the weird crap in Australian podcast. Welcome to
the week Crap and I show your podcast. I'm your
honest Matthew Soul joining me for a central episode full
(00:53):
of eroticism in streaking crime is Holly Soul.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I can promise two of those things.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Mm sex crime law firms. Also, it's really fucking convenient
that we're doing these episodes while I have a cold,
so it's a lot easier to slip into sensual boons today,
(01:29):
ladies and gentlemen, we are jumping straight back in kind
of definitely a side story related to the Gang Lay Wars. Now,
we did god five episodes, six episodes on the Ganglan Wars.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
As we go through this, I will actually show you
which ones link up to it. There are quite a lot,
some of them as far back as the seventies.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, if you want to get a bit of a
primer on this series, I would highly recommend revisiting our
Gangland Wars series.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Those are episodes three fifty two to three fifty eight.
Then you can go back and listen to the Wall
Street shooting, which is seventy six seventy seven. Don't forget
the episode we did on Old Melbourne Jail because they
actually cover some more of it. That's sixty sixty one. Nngrogata, Yeah,
Nandra Getta. Thanks somewhere in here too. I'll give you
(02:24):
the episode numbers when we come up to Then we
covered a lot and this this episode, or these couple
of episodes are literally going to tie all of those
things together.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well one person, hire them all together. Today's subject and
for probably the next couple of episodes, Lee's and gentlemen,
we are going to introduce you to someone who was
known for quite some time by the infamous code name.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Whereas Matthew likes to refer to them xxxll.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Now don't worry all use leezy pervert tonight, know that
there are a lot of you out there. I did
insist that Polly puts some of the sex back in,
so like, what you know, how much sex we talk
about these first couple of episodes and she's like a
one story. It's like, no, our loyal perverts, Holly waited
(03:19):
for a sexy series, so you go put the sex
back in. And I think she added maybe one more
one more sex story.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Four, but they're not until the end because it highlights
something specific that I want to point out. But four four, which.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Part of her anatomy. Hey ao, So yes, we're going
to talk about one of the rangest aspects of Victorian
criminal law history.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And one of the reasons why we still insist that
Victoria police are corrupt as shit.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Maybe Australia wide like this is such like there's there's
negligence from a professional, and then there's negligence that's sort
of allowed and that people cheer on from all sides
of the aisle. It's very very weird.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
There's a negligence that's a ooh I fucked up, and
then there's negligence of now we're going to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yes, deliberate and a lot of this feels deliberate well,
without any further ado, and in an effort to give
my sensual tones a little bit of a rest, Holly
take it away.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In the final years of the twentieth century, Melbourne became
an unwilling spectator to an underworld feud. Violence was hardly
new to the criminal world, but the openness with which
it was carried out during the gang Land Wars was shocking.
From nineteen ninety eight through to the late two thousands,
more than thirty killings raddled the city, any of them
(05:00):
carried out in public view, and more than a few
of which we covered in episodes three fifty two to
three eight. The Caine and Moran families, the Carlton Crew,
and associates of the upstart drug trafficker Carl Williams fought
with pistols and shotguns over territory in control of lucrative
party drug markets. Cafes and street corners became crime scenes,
(05:23):
and the evening news began cataloging gangland executions with increasing familiarity.
The depth and awareness of the gang Land were such
that the people committing those acts and who had the
acts committed against them in turn became household names for
the city and leader of the wider Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
It's important to keep in mind that the Underbelly series,
which started to adapt the novels by the same name
two thousand and three, the Gangland Wars were still going Yeah,
there were only about halfway done by then. Carl Williams
was in prison when the first TV series came out.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Victoria Police faced the crisis with determination but also desperation,
following the deaths of notable figures in two thousand and two,
such as Victor Pierce covered in episode seventy six seventy seven,
and the shooting of Nick the Bulgarian redev in early
two thousand and three, as well as the daylight murder
of Jason Marine and Pascual Barbaro in front of their children.
(06:21):
In June two thousand and three, episode three fifty five,
Victoria Police created Task Force Purana, a unit with sweeping powers.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Urana Urama Purana.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I probably say it to Australian Urana Urana Urana.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I thought it was Purana Purana very close to Pirana,
but not quite.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, p U R.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Eight and eight.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It was a unit with sweeping powers and a singular
mission to crack the web of underworld crime that put
Melbourne on the international criminal Traditional surveillance, phone taps and
real accountancy investigations helped the task force knew the war
could not be one without inside information. They needed something
big and concrete to stop the slaughter.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And I mean it wasn't like there was this crazy
lack of informants. If you go back to trying to think,
I think it was the episodes where we gathered the
lead up to the Wall Street duty.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Which would have been episode seventy six.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know, two of the girlfriends were quote unquote witness
protection to the point where they were getting they were
very well protected. Yes, government paid.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
For very intimate protection protection.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You know, so there were you know, theres, there were witnesses.
But the problem is with all of these people, so
it was the ones who involved in the Wall Street shootings,
whether it was the celt and Crew or whether it
was Williams and Co. There was constant flip flopping and
you had police who were on the tape, you had
(08:09):
witnesses that would one day go yeah, we're you know
where State's evidence, and then the next day they would
become a hostile witness and you can never tell which
fucking side people were on, especially when you also considered
that consummate liars like drop a Red were also thrown
(08:31):
into the mix. So it was it was really hard
for the State of Victoria who say this dot dot
dot person is our star witness. There were no star witnesses.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Victoria Police's informant network became invaluable. For every gangster who
agreed to trade whispers or for leniency and sentencing, there
was another who held back, wary of betrayal or reprisal
by their criminal masters or by corrupted members of Victoria
Police itself. It was in this atmosphere the Victoria Police
(09:10):
cultivated one of the most unusual and consequential information sources
in Australian criminal justice history. A barrister who not only
knew the underworld and partied with a large chunk of it,
but represented both sides in court.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
She would go on to become a well known defense
barrister and represent a who's who were drug traffickers, including
Tony Mockbell and his associates, along with the Collabrian mafia
boss Husquelle Barbaro, but her closeness to her clients raised
eyebrows in legal circles. A former colleague on Heliotis QC
(09:48):
described her as his favorite junior when it came to
drug matters, but one who would quote unquote mixed too
much with clients. Quote from lawyer ex identified Sarah Farnsworth,
ABC News, Friday, the first of March twenty and nineteen.
Let's talk about ethics really quickly. Here.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What Matthew's done a lot of this, so this should
be good, all.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Right, so I can talk about this a little bit.
Actually got a high distinction in my ethics subject. Okay,
So when we're talking about mental health care, when we're
talking about lawyers, when we're talking about police officers, all
of these. Any job where you're working with the public
(10:34):
or you're working to serve a purpose, you know you
have ethics. Even in your workplace, you're probably got to
code ethics there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Sometimes it's just called a code of practice.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You know, if you're working in a supermarket, perhaps it
says something along the lines of, you know, we understand
fratnization will happen However, once you were turned out, once
you have been informed that that behavior is unwelcome, that
it's not too continue on. You know, or perhaps you
work in the mental health setting, something that I hopefully
(11:08):
will be working in myself, where you have a code
of ethics that says, you know, you're not allowed to
have a romantic relationship with clients. To be even more
specific than that, the ACA, the Australian Counselors Association that
puts out the ethics for therapists, says that you should
(11:33):
avoid those relationships. However, if those relationships start, they have
to start two years after you have stopped seeing that
client in a professional capacity. Some people within mental health
field would argue that you should never ever start that
relationship regardless. Now, when it comes to lawyers, a lawyer
(12:02):
has to be able to represent you to the best
of their abilities, and they're meant to be doing it
impartially to a certain extent. Obviously, if you're paying someone
thousands of dollars who expect them to represent you well,
who expect them to represent you in your defense, right,
that goes without saying.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
If you're paying someone to be on your side, you
kind of want them to be on your side.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
The problem here is there is a difference between on
your side and in your lap. There is a problem
as well with going out there to defend your client.
Well on the weekend you're snorting cocaine with them. That
is also a problem, and that's why there are a
(12:53):
lot of people who are like, well, Lawyer X is
connected and they know this world very very well well
and in those same halls you would have. Yet they
know it very well, very well because they're a part
of it, and that's where it becomes a problem.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
This barrister, later known under the label's EF Informer three
eight three eight, witness F Witness two nine five eight,
and most famously Lawyer X, first came onto the police
books as early as nineteen ninety five, with further registrations
in nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and five, as
(13:31):
it wasn't known that she had already been placed on
registration lists previously.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Lawyer X's first incarnation as an informer was G three
ninety five. The undated police informer registration form from mid
nineteen ninety five describes her as very good in terms
of reliability. Her declared motives for informing were simple, she
generally wants to assist police. Quote from lawyer x Dowsy
(13:57):
and Carrol HarperCollins, twenty five, twenty page twenty two. Now
again back to ethics. So let's say I've got a
client with me and they're telling me all their different problems.
You know, what's going on in their life, what's working,
what's not working. All therapists Australia wide have to follow
(14:22):
this principle confidentiality, very very important confidentiality. The only times
confidentiality can be broken is if the person is going
to harm themselves, or they threatening arm others, or a
highly probable a crime will be committed. All right, very
(14:46):
very important. Usually you go speak to a supervisor therap
supervisor before any decisions are made about breaking confidentiality unless
it's an emergency situation. Lawyers fall under the same banner
to a point. To a point of course, they I
(15:06):
would imagine that they would actually fall under similar terms
that we do. So if the client of those turns
around and says I'm going to fucking murder this guy
at twelve o'clock, if the lawyer doesn't go and inform police.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
That's why in movies you'll see the layers. You go,
I can't hear this, sticks a finger in there and
goes la la la, la la, because yeah, they can't
hear it, or they have to report it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Absolutely. You'll often find that if someone confesses to a
crime that the lawyer will be compelled to you know,
they may be compelled to go to the police. But no,
well yes.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So yeah, only if it's a crime that you're not
currently representing them for.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, so you're on charges for fraud in the sultant battery,
but you admit to a murder three months ago. Congratulations,
you'll lawyer has to tell the cops.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So yeah, it's it's a really it's tight. Those ethics
are there for a reason. So lawyer X is partying
with these people's representing some of them. Is the breaking
the code of ethics that lawyers have to work to
(16:25):
in order to be an informant.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That is an incredible gray area, and we will cover it.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We will are people being literally seduced into divulging information
thinking that they are run an umbrella of privilege. You know,
that's when we're start getting into overturning convictions. But that's
a little bit later on.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Unlike the usual police sources, Lawyer X was not a
minor crook seeking to shave time off a sentence, and
thus it was assumed that per testimony, should she give one,
would be of great assistance and reliability. She was an
officer of the court, admitted to practice, and active in
Melbourne's higher criminal circles. She represented drug traffickers, gun runners
(17:11):
and some of the very men at the center of
the Gangland conflict, including Carl Williams and Lewis Moran. From
these men she gained not only fees but trust, and
with trust came information sensitive details about operations, movements, loyalties
and grievances, pending executions and truces called to clients, these
(17:33):
conversations were cloaked in the centuries old shield of legal
professional privilege, but to the police they were a gold
mine of information they could use to win the war.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I believe she had put herself in a position where
her life was at risk before she came to Victorian police.
That is my understanding as to why she came, why
she was recruited. Thestor Overland told the hearing my experience
of organized crime, particularly for professional advisors like lawyer X.
You can't resign. You just can't walk away from those roles.
(18:08):
You know too much. So my view was she was
trapped or felt trapped and came to Victorian police as
a way out. Quote from that lower X felt trapped
Overland Damon Johnston, The Australian, October eighteenth, twenty twenty four. Honestly,
I just don't buy that.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I mean, you can dig so far in that you
have trouble getting out, but then turn into the cops
as generally not the way you do it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But at the end of the day, like how often
do you hear about lawyers being targeted outside of you know,
things like the family court bombings, which were more personal related.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's that's not that's collateral damage, that's not ended target Like.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
The gangs, they know that their defense lawyers no shit,
and if they killed every single defense lawyer that the them,
they'd have no one, they'd have no one to defend them.
There's als it's almost like this unwritten rule. You know,
your defense lawyer is sort of out of bounds as
(19:13):
long as they're careful too. I mean, you know, we
talked about with I think it was the episode we
focused on the Marines. Yeah, when the lawyer was like, oh,
I'm being dragged into saying that I don't need to
be a part of you know. And in that case
a lawyer was smart enough to sort of get out
(19:34):
of there.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's like, yeah, I'm going by.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm out of there. I'm getting getting out, you know.
I really honestly think aside from that, you know, defense
lawyersst Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Between two thousand and five and two thousand and nine,
the period when her informing reached its peak, Lawyer X
produced thousands of intelligence reports for police. These were not
scraps of overheard gossip, but in some cases privileged documents,
notes of legal conferences, or material entrusted to her care
as counsel. The Royal Commission to the Management of Police Informants,
(20:15):
convened a decade later, heard that on multiple occasions, if
you'd handed over client documents to detectives, say.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
This one is not a gray area. I don't think.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Again it is, because you can if they're subpoena, but
they weren't subpoena.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It just say there you go. So no, it wasn't.
Look it's I'm glad you brought that up, because for
me that that is black and white. Again. If I'm
seeing clients and I have their therapeutic notes, I've been
therapy myself, you know, as part of it was it
(20:55):
was encouraged, you know that students go get their own therapy.
See how it feels on the other the desk. So
my therapist has notes on me. Right, unless those notes
are subpoened, those notes stay confidential and locked up forever. Right,
They're not for anyone else except my therapist and upon
(21:16):
my request me. Right, That's it simple as that. So, Holly,
when you say, now again caveat to that rule is
if the notes are subpoened, I do have to provide
those notes on my client, right, yep. Right, So when
you turned around and said she was just handing over
(21:38):
client notes and weren't subpoened, absolutely she is breaking those
those ethics and she's breaking that confidentiality And there's no
they're really I don't really think that there is any if,
whims or butts about that like that is it? You know?
(21:58):
All over red Rover. You know what I'm saying, m.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
At least one shipping record from a client brief, a
bill of leading, which is a form related to the
shipment of international cargo was copied, delivered and used by investigators.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Signce delivered I'm yours legal documents being handed to Victorian police.
Low Rex handed secret documents from her gang land client
Rob param two police, allowing them to uncover what was
in the world's largest import of fifteen million ecstasy pills.
(22:35):
Have one or two friends who probably ended up taking
a couple of those pills.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Album was well, well, no they didn't because they got seized.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Oh yeah. The other other pels, the Williams Pearls, which
were ship Parama is serving thirty five years behind bars
for trafficking ecstasy, including four point four tons of pills
disguised in Tomatow tims shipped to Melbourne by the Collabria
Mafia in two thousand and seven. Quote from ganglian figure
and lawyer, ex client Rob Hurram has conviction of ill
(23:06):
dismissed by court. ABC News there say fourteenth of December
twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For more on the Calabrian Mafia's activities in Australia, see
episodes three hundred and ninety three twelve.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
When they say this woman was connected, she was fucking
really fucking connected, which is physically and menaphor, like, can
I just say before we go too much further, I'm
not going to stop making those jokes because I find
it funny. In your research, do you think that he
(23:41):
demonstrates and the abnormal personality?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Is she fucking weird? Is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
You know, Look, there are certain things that I've picked
up on the desire to insert into all these aspects.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Right well, let me put it this way. This is
my entire summation of how I feel like she's an
attention seek. When I was reading through the research material
that I read through, which was fucking a lot because
I had four weeks to actually prep for this, one
of the things that was quoted was that she would
once walked into a university class, stood at the back, yelled,
(24:29):
I'm an infor maniac and my name is lawyer X.
I'm not going to give it away in case nobody
knows what it is, and then walked out again. And
you don't do that if you're not just an attention seeker.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Three students can immediately follow Saints, do you hear about it?
We're here to learn about what? Are we here to learn?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Sex?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Christ? We're here to learn physics ladies and gentlemen, not
about going off to mate up with an imfomaniacs. Silly,
that's crazy that she did that.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I mean, that's what I read, which was supposedly corroborated
by two of the people in that class. But that's
what I ran.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I mean, the we the problem is like I think,
now we look at these people and you know, you'd
never want to arm shared diagnose anyone. And if I
were to arm shared diagnose anyone, that's in my capacity
as a podcaster, nothing else, because well I am a
(25:42):
student therapist. Therapists don't diagnose. It's a fun little fact
for you. But we're seeing this sort of behavior. You know,
we've seen it in people that we've covered on the
podcast before. You know, are we looking borderline personality disorder?
Are we looking to make oppression? Are we looking at bipolar?
(26:08):
Things don't just happen in a vacuum. You know, there's
historyonic problems as well. Yeah, it's like, I this is
what happens when you start a counseling course, is you
developed this ridiculous amount of empathy. This is where these
podcasts are going to be a lot less fun because
(26:31):
five six years ago, I would have been cracking lots
and lots of jokes, and now I'm cracking a few jokes.
But now I'm just like, ah, this makes me feel
really sad for this person must have been All these
horrible things had to happen to her to lead her
to this point, and that's those sort of outbursts. Holly like,
it's not normal.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
And that's why I clarified if you were asked whether
I thought it was fucking weird.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I don't like using the term normal is exhibiting abnormal behavior.
That doesn't sound much better, does it. There is no
normal atypical, but there is land Ashord, like colleg just
said that atypical behavior, and that's definitely atypical behavior. Has
(27:17):
that ever happened any when in university when you're just
sort of sitting there and someone jumps up and declares something.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I can personally say that I never saw it, but
I also didn't pay that much attention to my lectures,
so I can't tell.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
You minds who are like Michael Scott in the office
when he like just walks into the office and just
screams like, I declare bankruptcy. Yeah, I declare that I
am a nymphomaniac. Anyway, continue on with your day. Bye
for now, looks out the door. I mean she wasn't
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(28:15):
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Speaker 3 (28:42):
Now back to the.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Show, when the information was processed and acted upon, Customs
opened to shipping containers in Melbourne and discovered what would
become the feather in the cap of Melbourne Customs Enforcement.
The containers in question carried literal tons of illicit drugs,
including MDMA tablets hidden inside industrial sized tins of tomato sauce.
Do you remember in The Bear, I think it was
(29:04):
the end of the first season.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Where he put all the money in the in the tomato,
in the tomato tins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I feel like either it was inspired by this or
that was just a standard collabor in mafia moved to
do and his brother was just a friend of someone
who knew how to do that or something like that.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
That's one hundred percent of mafia move. Yeah. And I mean,
like if you think about The Bear Chicago Italian family,
there is a I mean they've got that uncle who
always like he's involved in like they call him an uncle. Yeah,
they call him an uncle, which even like.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
He's a lawyer. Yeah, it's screams they don't say who
is a lawyer for Yeah, it screams like mafia connections. Yeah, look,
it's it's definitely a mafia move. Like over the years,
there have been some intriguing things that have been used
to try and hide drugs. I remember there was a
big drug bus that had original xboxes.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Scoopye mayonnaise I think it was or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that was that was what wasn't it because Japanese
Qpy mayonnaise is or something like that. Yeah, you had
a bunch of student in.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Waste of good food.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
They like took it home once they got the drugs out.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And then we have a quote here for Matthew Toy.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Customs officers at the Port of Melbourne intercepted the ecstasy
in the form of fifteen million tablets hidden in three
thousand tins, arriving from Naples, Italy in two thousand and seven.
The drugs found packed in a shipping container, weighed more
than four point four tons and had an estimated street
value of under own twenty two million. It was the
largest hall of ecstasy in the world at the time
(30:46):
of the seizure. Many of the tablets were stamped with
kangaroops no.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You knew where that was sending them.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
The Victorian Supreme Court heard many tins in the shipment
contained gravel and rocks to balance out the weight quote.
Two men jailed for importing up under in twenty two
million worth of ecstasy from Italy in tomato tins from
Peter crailin ABC News Friday, the fourth of July twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
The so called tomato tin case became the go to
when discussing how lawyer excess information influenced prosecutions. Among those
arrested and charged was Brob Korem, a long standing client.
While his lawyer represented him in court, happily taking his
appearance fee money, he also fed police intelligence about him.
(31:32):
According to later evidence, she not only passed on documents,
but also analyzed phone numbers and helped praise associations, which
is kind of the cops' jobs.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
How did the prosecutors, who had law degrees not think
for a second that this could be problematic?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I'm ninety percent sure the cops refused to tell them
who the informant was because she was very pretty?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Did it time more full to the prosecutors for not
asking the question seriously.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Continuing to move forward without getting the answer.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, like fuck that is. I mean, I guess they
could turn around and say, look will for willful ignorance,
or maybe we're under the gun and we just didn't
have time to ask, or you know, we just we
wanted to get this conviction. I mean there's I suppose
there are explanations, but fuck you would think any prosecutor
(32:34):
worth their salt would want to know where their information
is coming from.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
When you go, your job is literally asking questions.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Lawyer Exis handlers routinely asked her to provide information about
her clients car registrations, phone numbers, addresses, nicknames, and financial affairs.
She was regularly tasked by handlers to ascertain the movements
of her clients, including mister Mockbell and mister Kurahm. She
also provided significant information that related to operations targeting mister
Mockbell's criminal enterprise from his associates such as mister Thomas,
(33:05):
mister Cooper, and mister Kurram. During one of her early
meetings with the SDU on the twenty second of September
two thousand and five, he told them that mister Thomas
and mister Cooper would both have sufficient information about mister
Mockbell to put him away for a long time. Quote
from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informant's
final Report, Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, age one hundred
(33:30):
and ninety two.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
And yes, I read the fucking fun report.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There were there were a few like fun bits in there,
but most of it was just very technical stuff that
kind of flew over my head.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
I mean they they hided in that language for a reason,
you know, so that the everyday person don't understand.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Just how much they fucked up.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
It never should have happened. I mean, I've said it before,
like it's it's interesting. There are all these are like
royal commissions into the Victorian police force, you know, from
fuck nineteen eighty two today, and there are all these
royal commissions that dance around the problem. But the ro
(34:16):
is Victoria Police. The Royal Commission needs to be into
the Victorian Police and then conduct. And it's it's really
as simple as that.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think if you go that broad, it'll be like
the Queensland Police one and they'll just be like, it's
too corrupt. We have no idea what to do.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
There needs to be a better system of accountability. And
I think that better system of accountability for Australian police
is every five or six years, just a federal review
of each state police force, just a federal audit just
to make sure that everything is okay.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But make sure it's random so that they can't go
New South Wales was last year where this year is
so scrub everything?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, exactly, you know it's it's hey expect in the
next six years that federal officers will come in and
order your state. Simple as that there needs to be
more accountability than zero accountability.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
When Lawyer X's role in all these arrests was finally
aired during the Royal Commission, it cast a shadow over
one of the most significant drug prosecutions the country had
ever seen. The public were led to the belief that
the smugglers were undone by diligent police work or customs inspections,
something no one in these organizations had any interesting correcting.
(35:34):
Dew could have imagined that a defense barrister, aide to
protect a client's liberty, had supplied the very state with
the rope that helped aim The Dale case told a different,
but equally troubling story. One of the most volatile strands
running through this Pole saga was a case of former
Drug Score detective Paul Dale. In two thousand and three,
(35:55):
Dale was caught up in the investigation into the burglary
of a drug house in Oakley. The house had been
under surveillance staffed with drugs and cash, and yet criminals
managed to strip it clean, with suspicions quickly turning towards
inside help. Dale and career criminal turned police informer Terrence
Hodson were arrested and charged over their involvement in the
(36:16):
break in. Hodson, staring down charges that would destroy him,
flipped against Dale, almost immediately agreeing to give evidence against
the police officer.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
In particular, Dale is accused of having provided information and
possibly worked with Carl Williams, the drug dealer and murderer
who himself was killed in his jail cell by Matthew
Johnson in twenty ten. Quote from Paul Dale, Carl Williams
and our trust in police Rick Surry, the Conversation published
March eighth, twenty thirteen. Now I won't rehash it, as
(36:51):
I pretty much covered it when we did talk about
Carl Williams. But Carl Williams' death in some through crime
circles is highly suspected to have occurred because he was
about to inform on many people, including police officers.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
That's not in doubt. What's in dowed is which person
paid to have it done well.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That see, that's the thing too, you know? Was that
people within his own organization, was that people within rival organizations?
Was that the police? Was it even the prison guards?
Was it lux? Who was it? But there was there
were that many who could have beens that it probably
wasn't worth investigating.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
The cooperation between Hodson and the police was short lived.
In May two thousand and four, Hodson and his wife
Christine were executed in their q home, both gunned down
in what investigators described as a professional hit.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Not unlike the vampire, Jiggilow would also be killed in
similar fashion.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I remember what episode number that one is. I'll put
him in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
It's like Charlie Day and that's always sunning in Philadelphia.
You've seen that meme where he's they're crazy with the boy.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Remember I was making that board. It got too complicated.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
It had to turn it digital.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
The killings sent shockwaves through Victorian police, not least because
Hodson had been on their books as an informer at
the time. The years afterwards, the murders remained an open
wound inside the force, an open reminder of the blurred
lines between police, their handlers, and the criminals they were
meant to be controlling.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
The main investigators into the Hudson murders, save Victorian Police
Command's protection of prized informer and barrister lawyer X destroyed
their chances of solving the chilling execution. In stinging statements
released on Tuesday night by the Royal Commission probing the
Lower X scandal, respected homicide detective Soul Solomon and retired
(38:47):
policeman Hemeryon Davy said the Hodson family would deny justice
because of the decisions of senior police. Detective Sergeant Solomon
said he had never experienced anything like this in his career.
He spoke to me more prominent members of the legal
profession without any encumbrances. He said, I now believe what
had been occurring between thirty eight thirty eight and Victorian
(39:09):
Police had a significant detrimental effect on the investigation into
the Hudson murders and caused the integrity of the investigation
to be compromised. Detective Sergeant Solomon said there are tragedies
associated with his whole saga, one of them being the
denial of justice to Terence and Christine Hodson and their family.
(39:30):
Cop cops noveled over Hudson murder probe. Investigators from Auntemmy
Williams August twentieth, twenty nineteen of the.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Age, attention inevitably circled back to Dale. In two thousand
and nine, he was charged again, this time with the
Hodson's murders themselves, after notorious gang LAMB boss Carl Williams
agreed to testify against him.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
And then died a year later.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
It was a remarkable development. Williams, already serving a life
sentence for multiple killings, had cut a deal to give
evidence implicating Dale in both the burglary and the executions.
Dale denied the allegations and prepared to fight the case
in court.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Can you remember what Williams was getting out of this deal?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Probably put somewhere where he wouldn't get whacked.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
His daughter's a private education, was being paid for by
the Victorian government.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Well looking after his family.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Basically, basically, the Victorian Coroner has found there is not
enough evidence to safely conclude former police detective Paul Dale
and career criminal Rodney Collins were behind the murders of
police informer Terrence Hudson and his wife Christine. Eleven years ago.
Coronet Ian Gray said he was unable to conclude they
were responsible for the Hudson's death to the standard of
(40:43):
proof required. That's very important there, grace right to the
standard of proof required. The couple were shot down at
their q home in Melbourne's East and last year, and
in quest had explosive claims the drug boss Honey mock
Bell may have financed the killings on behalf of former
police detective mister Dale. Quote from Hudson inquest finding. Victoria
(41:07):
Coroinal rules there is insufficient evidence to charge Paul Dale
and Rodney Collins over deaths from Stephanie Ferrier Friday, the
thirty one of July twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
What is known, though, is that the prosecution's case included
testimony from lawyer X, listed under the pseudonym witness F.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
For friendly for female for fucking with the ethics. Ah,
that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Her evidence was considered so sensitive that it was delivered
under extraordinary protective orders.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It was real sensitive, real sensitive. Twenty eleven February, former
Victorian police officer mister Paul Dale is charged with criminal
offenses lower excess to give evidence in the proceedings. Mister
Dale subsequently serves as subpoena of Victorian Police seeking documents
could have revealed Lawyer Ex's status as a human source.
(42:04):
October as a result of mister Dale subpoena Victorian Police
of Pain's legal advice, you'll fucked. You're fucked up. Now
you're fucked and he's definitely going to be able to
subpoena that from you.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Go back twenty five years and don't fucking do it.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
That advice triggers the first of three confidential reviews into
the use of Lawyer X as a human source from
the Camrie Review quote from the Royal Commission into the
Management Police Informance final Report.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
But the legal machinery never got far enough to convict.
In twenty ten, Williams was murdered inside Barn Prison, ludgend
to death in the high security unit where he was
being held. With their star witness gone, prosecutors had little
left to work with and the Casey and Stale collapsed.
Questions mounted about disclosure prossgnamination was curtailed and the fact
(42:54):
that a barrister was appearing as a secret source was
never made public. When the matter was withdraw from the court,
suspicions lingered in criminal circles. The identity of Witness F
was whispered within certain legal and policing circles, and it
was increasingly obvious that the witness was not a simple
civilian but a practicing lawyer associate with a party or
(43:14):
parties involved in the case, who would strayed beyond the
boundaries of ethics, even if her actions were not technically illegal.
And I actually have the quote of the ethics that
she was violating here.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
So this comes from the Lawyer's Code of Ethics in
Victoria or is this Australia wide or.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
No, this is a Legal Services Council. This is specifically
the New South Wales one, but it also applies through Victoria.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Section one one nine. A barrister who is brief to
appear for two or more parties in any case must
determine as soon as possible whether the interests of the
client may as a real possibility conflict, and if so,
the barrister must then return the brief four A all
the clients in the case of confidentiality, which rule one
(43:59):
one four would apply, or b one or more of
the clients, so as to remove the possibility of conflict.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
How did she violate one? She's appearing for the cops
and for the criminals.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
She's a prosecution witness and she is a defense barrister
for people basically being prosecuted.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
She's taking the money and then setting them up.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah. Section one twenty. Barrister who believes on reasonable grounds
that the interests of the client may conflict with the
interests of the instructing solicitor, or that the client may
have a claim against the instructing solicitor must a advising
instructing solicitor of the barrister's belief, and b if the
(44:43):
instructing solicitor does not agree to advise the client of
the barrister's belief, seek to advise the client in the
presence of the instructing solicitor of the barrister's belief that
comes to you from the legal professional Uniform and conduct
of Barrister's Rule twenty fifteen. Services Council Rule one twenty
Conflict of Venturists versus July fifteen. They haven't updated since
(45:06):
twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Oh no, this was an amendment. Do amendments every couple
of years. It's just that the base law was put
in place in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I was just about to say that my code and
ethics gets updated nearly every year.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
It's a constant evolving document, but they leave the base
code as like code.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Oh fair enough, and that ladies and gentlemen, with that
little bit of legal ease, is where we're going to
leave you for this week. As we said, Lawyer X
is going to be our series strap in. It only
gets more interesting from here.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Matthew thinks there's going to be more boobies.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
I mean, people like salacious details. Holly, I just I
don't think there has ever been anyone in Australian criminal
history who has had so many relationships with so many
aspects of this world. You know, she was aware of
people who were trafficking, she was partaking, she was representing,
(46:06):
She was having sexual liaisons with both the criminal element
and the police element.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
She was going over to houses for dinner of a
Sunday night, she was socializing with you.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, it was as if she was almost like a
true crime groupie, you know. And that's what's so like
and believe it or not, these people exist like if
you go to crime coon, yeah, believe it or not
ere mentions over in America for the true crime. You know,
(46:38):
there are certain people that feel a certain way about you. Know,
true crime authors and you know, and they're interested in
super detectives and things like that. But that's sort of
how I would describe lawyer X as just someone who say,
I don't want to say attention seeking. I think that
simplifies this. I think she's she's very complex. I think
(47:01):
she's very very complex.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
I think she started out attention seeking, being one of
those pigmy pigmies, and then she realized how far she got, well,
how far she was over ahead.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I think she enjoyed that aspect too. Like we'll talk
about her.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Swimming, but every now and then I feel like I'm
in over my head and I'm driving a little bit.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
We'll talk about her reaction to all of this. We'll
talk about a reaction to the publicity when it's finally outed.
All of that is yet to come. But yeah, she
is a very complicated person. And this case is an
example of police just ignoring every red flag, every red
(47:43):
flag until a royal commission has to be called for
this one person. It triggers an entire review of every
single informat over the last twenty years in Victorian policing.
It's huge. Just for one person, we're going to get
into more of that next week, but before we do
(48:03):
a little bit of housekeeping, don't forget if you'd like
to reach out to us. Perhaps you were represented by
lawyer X, or you knew someone who was partied with
lawyer X, or maybe you will a lawyer X's boyfriend
or girlfriend for a little while, you know, reach out
to us. You can find us on your social media
of choice just typing we Crapping Australia into the search bar.
(48:26):
You can also send us a good old fashioned email
to week crap in Australia at gmail dot com. You
can also help out the show by checking out our
Patreon friendly five dollars USD a month. You get access
to mainline episodes released early under part an ad free,
as well as a bonus minisot that we put together
every week just for our Patreon supporters. You can also
(48:49):
grab yourself We crap In Australia Volume one to six.
Mail told us I think we're about halfway through, maybe
even a little bit more on the signed edition of
volume six getting quick. They are going and Mal is
happy to sell them. I love selling those books, So
(49:12):
if you'd like to grab yourself assigned copy, as I've
said as well. When it comes to volume six, once
they're gone, they're gone. We don't know further shipments will
be signed, but to encourage people to really support little
local businesses, especially in pac Comics have been a supporter
of ours for years. They've stocked our books for years
(49:34):
and years, and mal always reorders. They've shown us more
love than any other place that we've tried to get
these books into, and they sell them. So we'd like
to help them out if you do grab let's say
you're buying volume six and you want to complete your
Weirk Crap in Australia collection. I think we just restock
(49:55):
them on volume one. Yes, yeah, so they're back in
stock on volume one again. I want to purchase any
of those books with Volume six and you'd like them autograph,
I'm happy to go down there and sign them for you.
Like honestly, it shows my appreciation for you behind the books,
and if it encourages more people to spend a few
more dollars with a local. Malt ships Australia wide, Malan
(50:18):
Cam the whole Impact Comics team. They ship Australia wide.
If you just want one book and you'd like a
recommendation for a graphic novel. Christmas is coming up. I'd
be happy to recommend something for the geeky nerd in
your life, because I think most couples have geeky nerds
(50:40):
in them. Now, yes to be a thing.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
If you're not a geeky nerd for mobile games, you're
a geeky nerd for movies or D and D or
video games. So everyone's got something. Even my self hating
nerd mother has something. He loves alien, she loves her
horror movie.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
Yes, here you go. I'm going to make some recommendations
for you right now. Get a pen. Okay, you want
Weird Craft in Australia Volume one to six. That's the
first thing you need to buy. Comic book recommendations. DC
Comics has just started a new sort of self contained universe.
They calling them absolutes. So there's Absolute Batman, Absolute to Man,
(51:20):
Absolute Wonder Woman. I would highly recommend picking up any
of those. They're just about to hit graphic novel or
have hit graphic novel, so that's the first six issues
or bound together in a nice hardback. Absolute Batman is
a fucking riot. If you really dig the classic Batman story,
(51:42):
throw it out. Imagine Batman as a civil engineer who
his parents were not millionaires, so it's sort of like
low t tech. Look, he turns you know those big
mining trucks. Yeah, yeah, he turns one of those into
(52:03):
a batmobile, the whole truck, right, and and he sort
of rigs up construction sites like little mini bat caves
all around the city. Like it's working class Batman. Right.
Take Jimmy Barnes, take Batman, and you get absolute Batman.
(52:23):
Absolute Superman is also very interesting. It's again it's a
it's about repositioning, you know. Palel, the alien who comes
from Crypton doesn't come from a scientist family. His mother
was a scientist who has kicked out the Science Guild.
Father was a farmer on Krypton and a very aware
(52:45):
Superman is sent to Earth as the last survivor of
Krypton and becomes basically a corporate saboteur the corporation that
investigates in the first couple of issues, Holly, they have
their own private police force who are all dressed Peacemaker.
And then Absolute wonder Woman. You have a wonder Woman
(53:07):
instead of being raised by the Amazonians, the baby is
created out of Clay the Little Wonder Woman Baby, but
it is immediately sent through the Greek version of Hell,
which is Tartarus. Yeah, Tarterus sent to Tartarus and is
protected by the wit Circe, and so that Wonder Woman
(53:28):
to get to Earth has to climb her way through Hell.
So that's the absolute books they're out on graphic novel. Now,
those are my recommendations. Pick those up from Impact Comics
if you're a fan of any of those, and again,
if you want recommendations, to shoot me an email. I'm
happy to pick those sales for mal Recently, what did
(53:49):
I pick up that only just came out? Alien versus
the Avengers, written by Jonathan Hickman.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
That makes it stupid? When did I first hear you
say that? I can't quite remember.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
It was when we were watching Titons and it was
the first live action appearance of Crypto, and Crypto absolutely
fucks up some swat guys like and I just remember
watching it being so esthetic at watching Crypto do that,
and then being like, wow, I'll make it stupid. But
(54:25):
there's nothing wrong with stupid fun, man, nothing wrong at all.
We need more stupid fun. And last, but at least
if you want to grab a wee crap and astray
your T shirt, I should get that dumb fun it's
fun on a T shirt. You can grab those from
our Tea Public and Red Bubble stores. Just like social
media typing we craping as straight into that search bar
and you'll see a bunch of cool designs that you
(54:47):
can slap on a different products, including mugs, T shirts,
and coasters. Otherwise, we give Polly the final words, which
is our custom. I did that in reverse this week.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
So something you said made me go, I wonder if
that's a thing. Hybristophilia is a phenomenon characterized by sexual
interest in and attraction to those who commit crimes. Was
only coined in nineteen eighty six, and is otherwise known
as the Bonnie and Clyde syndrome. Some of the most
notable examples are, of course, the women who flocked after
(55:18):
Dama Bundy, Childsmith and Richard Ramirez the Nightstalk. They all
had massive crime groupies, and some of them give birth
to alleged children.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Yeah, it's a paraphilia around the idea of if the
most dangerous predator on the planet considers me somewhat significant,
he won't kill me. He won't kill me, and he'll
protect me. Yeah, you know, which has not happened. But yeah, yeah,
(55:50):
I know. There were definitely some love children snuck out
of prison.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Bundy is definitely one that's supposedly had one.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Oh yeah, yeah, his daughter's out there, out there. Never
put a hand up to get any clean towards that.
Wouldn't want that, Holly, I wouldn't want that, Holy Holly. Hell.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
I mean sure, when I was a bullied kid at
school it probably would have been good.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
But no, I wouldn't want that, Holly. There are lots
of people who love fame.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yes, and they're only getting worse.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
Yes, yes, yes, say well that lovely thought. We will
leave it there. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay safe, be
clind to each other. We'll see you next week. From
all Week Craft in Australia. Until then, bye for now.
They The Weird Crap in Australia podcast is produced by
(56:46):
Holly and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown. If you've
enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review on your favorite
podcatching app
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO. They were last seen on the
beach with a tall man and that's the best description
police have ever had of it.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy a Beach, his widow has finally revealed
his last romantic words.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the YOWI.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's time the weird crap in Australian podcast. Welcome to
the week Crap and I show your podcast. I'm your
honest Matthew Soul joining me for a central episode full
(00:53):
of eroticism in streaking crime is Holly Soul.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I can promise two of those things.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Mm sex crime law firms. Also, it's really fucking convenient
that we're doing these episodes while I have a cold,
so it's a lot easier to slip into sensual boons today,
(01:29):
ladies and gentlemen, we are jumping straight back in kind
of definitely a side story related to the Gang Lay Wars. Now,
we did god five episodes, six episodes on the Ganglan Wars.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
As we go through this, I will actually show you
which ones link up to it. There are quite a lot,
some of them as far back as the seventies.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, if you want to get a bit of a
primer on this series, I would highly recommend revisiting our
Gangland Wars series.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Those are episodes three fifty two to three fifty eight.
Then you can go back and listen to the Wall
Street shooting, which is seventy six seventy seven. Don't forget
the episode we did on Old Melbourne Jail because they
actually cover some more of it. That's sixty sixty one. Nngrogata, Yeah,
Nandra Getta. Thanks somewhere in here too. I'll give you
(02:24):
the episode numbers when we come up to Then we
covered a lot and this this episode, or these couple
of episodes are literally going to tie all of those
things together.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Well one person, hire them all together. Today's subject and
for probably the next couple of episodes, Lee's and gentlemen,
we are going to introduce you to someone who was
known for quite some time by the infamous code name.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Whereas Matthew likes to refer to them xxxll.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Now don't worry all use leezy pervert tonight, know that
there are a lot of you out there. I did
insist that Polly puts some of the sex back in,
so like, what you know, how much sex we talk
about these first couple of episodes and she's like a
one story. It's like, no, our loyal perverts, Holly waited
(03:19):
for a sexy series, so you go put the sex
back in. And I think she added maybe one more
one more sex story.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Four, but they're not until the end because it highlights
something specific that I want to point out. But four four, which.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Part of her anatomy. Hey ao, So yes, we're going
to talk about one of the rangest aspects of Victorian
criminal law history.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And one of the reasons why we still insist that
Victoria police are corrupt as shit.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Maybe Australia wide like this is such like there's there's
negligence from a professional, and then there's negligence that's sort
of allowed and that people cheer on from all sides
of the aisle. It's very very weird.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
There's a negligence that's a ooh I fucked up, and
then there's negligence of now we're going to do this.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yes, deliberate and a lot of this feels deliberate well,
without any further ado, and in an effort to give
my sensual tones a little bit of a rest, Holly
take it away.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
In the final years of the twentieth century, Melbourne became
an unwilling spectator to an underworld feud. Violence was hardly
new to the criminal world, but the openness with which
it was carried out during the gang Land Wars was shocking.
From nineteen ninety eight through to the late two thousands,
more than thirty killings raddled the city, any of them
(05:00):
carried out in public view, and more than a few
of which we covered in episodes three fifty two to
three eight. The Caine and Moran families, the Carlton Crew,
and associates of the upstart drug trafficker Carl Williams fought
with pistols and shotguns over territory in control of lucrative
party drug markets. Cafes and street corners became crime scenes,
(05:23):
and the evening news began cataloging gangland executions with increasing familiarity.
The depth and awareness of the gang Land were such
that the people committing those acts and who had the
acts committed against them in turn became household names for
the city and leader of the wider Australia.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
It's important to keep in mind that the Underbelly series,
which started to adapt the novels by the same name
two thousand and three, the Gangland Wars were still going Yeah,
there were only about halfway done by then. Carl Williams
was in prison when the first TV series came out.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Victoria Police faced the crisis with determination but also desperation,
following the deaths of notable figures in two thousand and two,
such as Victor Pierce covered in episode seventy six seventy seven,
and the shooting of Nick the Bulgarian redev in early
two thousand and three, as well as the daylight murder
of Jason Marine and Pascual Barbaro in front of their children.
(06:21):
In June two thousand and three, episode three fifty five,
Victoria Police created Task Force Purana, a unit with sweeping powers.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Urana Urama Purana.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
I probably say it to Australian Urana Urana Urana.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
I thought it was Purana Purana very close to Pirana,
but not quite.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah, p U R.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Eight and eight.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It was a unit with sweeping powers and a singular
mission to crack the web of underworld crime that put
Melbourne on the international criminal Traditional surveillance, phone taps and
real accountancy investigations helped the task force knew the war
could not be one without inside information. They needed something
big and concrete to stop the slaughter.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And I mean it wasn't like there was this crazy
lack of informants. If you go back to trying to think,
I think it was the episodes where we gathered the
lead up to the Wall Street duty.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Which would have been episode seventy six.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
You know, two of the girlfriends were quote unquote witness
protection to the point where they were getting they were
very well protected. Yes, government paid.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
For very intimate protection protection.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You know, so there were you know, theres, there were witnesses.
But the problem is with all of these people, so
it was the ones who involved in the Wall Street shootings,
whether it was the celt and Crew or whether it
was Williams and Co. There was constant flip flopping and
you had police who were on the tape, you had
(08:09):
witnesses that would one day go yeah, we're you know
where State's evidence, and then the next day they would
become a hostile witness and you can never tell which
fucking side people were on, especially when you also considered
that consummate liars like drop a Red were also thrown
(08:31):
into the mix. So it was it was really hard
for the State of Victoria who say this dot dot
dot person is our star witness. There were no star witnesses.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Victoria Police's informant network became invaluable. For every gangster who
agreed to trade whispers or for leniency and sentencing, there
was another who held back, wary of betrayal or reprisal
by their criminal masters or by corrupted members of Victoria
Police itself. It was in this atmosphere the Victoria Police
(09:10):
cultivated one of the most unusual and consequential information sources
in Australian criminal justice history. A barrister who not only
knew the underworld and partied with a large chunk of it,
but represented both sides in court.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
She would go on to become a well known defense
barrister and represent a who's who were drug traffickers, including
Tony Mockbell and his associates, along with the Collabrian mafia
boss Husquelle Barbaro, but her closeness to her clients raised
eyebrows in legal circles. A former colleague on Heliotis QC
(09:48):
described her as his favorite junior when it came to
drug matters, but one who would quote unquote mixed too
much with clients. Quote from lawyer ex identified Sarah Farnsworth,
ABC News, Friday, the first of March twenty and nineteen.
Let's talk about ethics really quickly. Here.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What Matthew's done a lot of this, so this should
be good, all.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Right, so I can talk about this a little bit.
Actually got a high distinction in my ethics subject. Okay,
So when we're talking about mental health care, when we're
talking about lawyers, when we're talking about police officers, all
of these. Any job where you're working with the public
(10:34):
or you're working to serve a purpose, you know you
have ethics. Even in your workplace, you're probably got to
code ethics there somewhere.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Sometimes it's just called a code of practice.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You know, if you're working in a supermarket, perhaps it
says something along the lines of, you know, we understand
fratnization will happen However, once you were turned out, once
you have been informed that that behavior is unwelcome, that
it's not too continue on. You know, or perhaps you
work in the mental health setting, something that I hopefully
(11:08):
will be working in myself, where you have a code
of ethics that says, you know, you're not allowed to
have a romantic relationship with clients. To be even more
specific than that, the ACA, the Australian Counselors Association that
puts out the ethics for therapists, says that you should
(11:33):
avoid those relationships. However, if those relationships start, they have
to start two years after you have stopped seeing that
client in a professional capacity. Some people within mental health
field would argue that you should never ever start that
relationship regardless. Now, when it comes to lawyers, a lawyer
(12:02):
has to be able to represent you to the best
of their abilities, and they're meant to be doing it
impartially to a certain extent. Obviously, if you're paying someone
thousands of dollars who expect them to represent you well,
who expect them to represent you in your defense, right,
that goes without saying.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
If you're paying someone to be on your side, you
kind of want them to be on your side.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
The problem here is there is a difference between on
your side and in your lap. There is a problem
as well with going out there to defend your client.
Well on the weekend you're snorting cocaine with them. That
is also a problem, and that's why there are a
(12:53):
lot of people who are like, well, Lawyer X is
connected and they know this world very very well well
and in those same halls you would have. Yet they
know it very well, very well because they're a part
of it, and that's where it becomes a problem.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
This barrister, later known under the label's EF Informer three
eight three eight, witness F Witness two nine five eight,
and most famously Lawyer X, first came onto the police
books as early as nineteen ninety five, with further registrations
in nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and five, as
(13:31):
it wasn't known that she had already been placed on
registration lists previously.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Lawyer X's first incarnation as an informer was G three
ninety five. The undated police informer registration form from mid
nineteen ninety five describes her as very good in terms
of reliability. Her declared motives for informing were simple, she
generally wants to assist police. Quote from lawyer x Dowsy
(13:57):
and Carrol HarperCollins, twenty five, twenty page twenty two. Now
again back to ethics. So let's say I've got a
client with me and they're telling me all their different problems.
You know, what's going on in their life, what's working,
what's not working. All therapists Australia wide have to follow
(14:22):
this principle confidentiality, very very important confidentiality. The only times
confidentiality can be broken is if the person is going
to harm themselves, or they threatening arm others, or a
highly probable a crime will be committed. All right, very
(14:46):
very important. Usually you go speak to a supervisor therap
supervisor before any decisions are made about breaking confidentiality unless
it's an emergency situation. Lawyers fall under the same banner
to a point. To a point of course, they I
(15:06):
would imagine that they would actually fall under similar terms
that we do. So if the client of those turns
around and says I'm going to fucking murder this guy
at twelve o'clock, if the lawyer doesn't go and inform police.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
That's why in movies you'll see the layers. You go,
I can't hear this, sticks a finger in there and
goes la la la, la la, because yeah, they can't
hear it, or they have to report it.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Absolutely. You'll often find that if someone confesses to a
crime that the lawyer will be compelled to you know,
they may be compelled to go to the police. But no,
well yes.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
So yeah, only if it's a crime that you're not
currently representing them for.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, so you're on charges for fraud in the sultant battery,
but you admit to a murder three months ago. Congratulations,
you'll lawyer has to tell the cops.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So yeah, it's it's a really it's tight. Those ethics
are there for a reason. So lawyer X is partying
with these people's representing some of them. Is the breaking
the code of ethics that lawyers have to work to
(16:25):
in order to be an informant.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
That is an incredible gray area, and we will cover it.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
We will are people being literally seduced into divulging information
thinking that they are run an umbrella of privilege. You know,
that's when we're start getting into overturning convictions. But that's
a little bit later on.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Unlike the usual police sources, Lawyer X was not a
minor crook seeking to shave time off a sentence, and
thus it was assumed that per testimony, should she give one,
would be of great assistance and reliability. She was an
officer of the court, admitted to practice, and active in
Melbourne's higher criminal circles. She represented drug traffickers, gun runners
(17:11):
and some of the very men at the center of
the Gangland conflict, including Carl Williams and Lewis Moran. From
these men she gained not only fees but trust, and
with trust came information sensitive details about operations, movements, loyalties
and grievances, pending executions and truces called to clients, these
(17:33):
conversations were cloaked in the centuries old shield of legal
professional privilege, but to the police they were a gold
mine of information they could use to win the war.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I believe she had put herself in a position where
her life was at risk before she came to Victorian police.
That is my understanding as to why she came, why
she was recruited. Thestor Overland told the hearing my experience
of organized crime, particularly for professional advisors like lawyer X.
You can't resign. You just can't walk away from those roles.
(18:08):
You know too much. So my view was she was
trapped or felt trapped and came to Victorian police as
a way out. Quote from that lower X felt trapped
Overland Damon Johnston, The Australian, October eighteenth, twenty twenty four. Honestly,
I just don't buy that.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I mean, you can dig so far in that you
have trouble getting out, but then turn into the cops
as generally not the way you do it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But at the end of the day, like how often
do you hear about lawyers being targeted outside of you know,
things like the family court bombings, which were more personal related.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That's that's not that's collateral damage, that's not ended target Like.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
The gangs, they know that their defense lawyers no shit,
and if they killed every single defense lawyer that the them,
they'd have no one, they'd have no one to defend them.
There's als it's almost like this unwritten rule. You know,
your defense lawyer is sort of out of bounds as
(19:13):
long as they're careful too. I mean, you know, we
talked about with I think it was the episode we
focused on the Marines. Yeah, when the lawyer was like, oh,
I'm being dragged into saying that I don't need to
be a part of you know. And in that case
a lawyer was smart enough to sort of get out
(19:34):
of there.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's like, yeah, I'm going by.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I'm out of there. I'm getting getting out, you know.
I really honestly think aside from that, you know, defense
lawyersst Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Between two thousand and five and two thousand and nine,
the period when her informing reached its peak, Lawyer X
produced thousands of intelligence reports for police. These were not
scraps of overheard gossip, but in some cases privileged documents,
notes of legal conferences, or material entrusted to her care
as counsel. The Royal Commission to the Management of Police Informants,
(20:15):
convened a decade later, heard that on multiple occasions, if
you'd handed over client documents to detectives, say.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
This one is not a gray area. I don't think.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Again it is, because you can if they're subpoena, but
they weren't subpoena.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
It just say there you go. So no, it wasn't.
Look it's I'm glad you brought that up, because for
me that that is black and white. Again. If I'm
seeing clients and I have their therapeutic notes, I've been
therapy myself, you know, as part of it was it
(20:55):
was encouraged, you know that students go get their own therapy.
See how it feels on the other the desk. So
my therapist has notes on me. Right, unless those notes
are subpoened, those notes stay confidential and locked up forever. Right,
They're not for anyone else except my therapist and upon
(21:16):
my request me. Right, That's it simple as that. So, Holly,
when you say, now again caveat to that rule is
if the notes are subpoened, I do have to provide
those notes on my client, right, yep. Right, So when
you turned around and said she was just handing over
(21:38):
client notes and weren't subpoened, absolutely she is breaking those
those ethics and she's breaking that confidentiality And there's no
they're really I don't really think that there is any if,
whims or butts about that like that is it? You know?
(21:58):
All over red Rover. You know what I'm saying, m.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
At least one shipping record from a client brief, a
bill of leading, which is a form related to the
shipment of international cargo was copied, delivered and used by investigators.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Signce delivered I'm yours legal documents being handed to Victorian police.
Low Rex handed secret documents from her gang land client
Rob param two police, allowing them to uncover what was
in the world's largest import of fifteen million ecstasy pills.
(22:35):
Have one or two friends who probably ended up taking
a couple of those pills.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Album was well, well, no they didn't because they got seized.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Oh yeah. The other other pels, the Williams Pearls, which
were ship Parama is serving thirty five years behind bars
for trafficking ecstasy, including four point four tons of pills
disguised in Tomatow tims shipped to Melbourne by the Collabria
Mafia in two thousand and seven. Quote from ganglian figure
and lawyer, ex client Rob Hurram has conviction of ill
(23:06):
dismissed by court. ABC News there say fourteenth of December
twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
For more on the Calabrian Mafia's activities in Australia, see
episodes three hundred and ninety three twelve.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
When they say this woman was connected, she was fucking
really fucking connected, which is physically and menaphor, like, can
I just say before we go too much further, I'm
not going to stop making those jokes because I find
it funny. In your research, do you think that he
(23:41):
demonstrates and the abnormal personality?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Is she fucking weird? Is that what you're asking me?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
You know, Look, there are certain things that I've picked
up on the desire to insert into all these aspects.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Right well, let me put it this way. This is
my entire summation of how I feel like she's an
attention seek. When I was reading through the research material
that I read through, which was fucking a lot because
I had four weeks to actually prep for this, one
of the things that was quoted was that she would
once walked into a university class, stood at the back, yelled,
(24:29):
I'm an infor maniac and my name is lawyer X.
I'm not going to give it away in case nobody
knows what it is, and then walked out again. And
you don't do that if you're not just an attention seeker.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Three students can immediately follow Saints, do you hear about it?
We're here to learn about what? Are we here to learn?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Sex?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Christ? We're here to learn physics ladies and gentlemen, not
about going off to mate up with an imfomaniacs. Silly,
that's crazy that she did that.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I mean, that's what I read, which was supposedly corroborated
by two of the people in that class. But that's
what I ran.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I mean, the we the problem is like I think,
now we look at these people and you know, you'd
never want to arm shared diagnose anyone. And if I
were to arm shared diagnose anyone, that's in my capacity
as a podcaster, nothing else, because well I am a
(25:42):
student therapist. Therapists don't diagnose. It's a fun little fact
for you. But we're seeing this sort of behavior. You know,
we've seen it in people that we've covered on the
podcast before. You know, are we looking borderline personality disorder?
Are we looking to make oppression? Are we looking at bipolar?
(26:08):
Things don't just happen in a vacuum. You know, there's
historyonic problems as well. Yeah, it's like, I this is
what happens when you start a counseling course, is you
developed this ridiculous amount of empathy. This is where these
podcasts are going to be a lot less fun because
(26:31):
five six years ago, I would have been cracking lots
and lots of jokes, and now I'm cracking a few jokes.
But now I'm just like, ah, this makes me feel
really sad for this person must have been All these
horrible things had to happen to her to lead her
to this point, and that's those sort of outbursts. Holly like,
it's not normal.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
And that's why I clarified if you were asked whether
I thought it was fucking weird.
Speaker 3 (26:57):
I don't like using the term normal is exhibiting abnormal behavior.
That doesn't sound much better, does it. There is no
normal atypical, but there is land Ashord, like colleg just
said that atypical behavior, and that's definitely atypical behavior. Has
(27:17):
that ever happened any when in university when you're just
sort of sitting there and someone jumps up and declares something.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
I can personally say that I never saw it, but
I also didn't pay that much attention to my lectures,
so I can't tell.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
You minds who are like Michael Scott in the office
when he like just walks into the office and just
screams like, I declare bankruptcy. Yeah, I declare that I
am a nymphomaniac. Anyway, continue on with your day. Bye
for now, looks out the door. I mean she wasn't
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(27:54):
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(28:15):
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Speaker 1 (28:21):
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Speaker 3 (28:42):
Now back to the.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Show, when the information was processed and acted upon, Customs
opened to shipping containers in Melbourne and discovered what would
become the feather in the cap of Melbourne Customs Enforcement.
The containers in question carried literal tons of illicit drugs,
including MDMA tablets hidden inside industrial sized tins of tomato sauce.
Do you remember in The Bear, I think it was
(29:04):
the end of the first season.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Where he put all the money in the in the tomato,
in the tomato tins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I feel like either it was inspired by this or
that was just a standard collabor in mafia moved to
do and his brother was just a friend of someone
who knew how to do that or something like that.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
That's one hundred percent of mafia move. Yeah. And I mean,
like if you think about The Bear Chicago Italian family,
there is a I mean they've got that uncle who
always like he's involved in like they call him an uncle. Yeah,
they call him an uncle, which even like.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
He's a lawyer. Yeah, it's screams they don't say who
is a lawyer for Yeah, it screams like mafia connections. Yeah, look,
it's it's definitely a mafia move. Like over the years,
there have been some intriguing things that have been used
to try and hide drugs. I remember there was a
big drug bus that had original xboxes.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Scoopye mayonnaise I think it was or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Yeah, that was that was what wasn't it because Japanese
Qpy mayonnaise is or something like that. Yeah, you had
a bunch of student in.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Waste of good food.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
They like took it home once they got the drugs out.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And then we have a quote here for Matthew Toy.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Customs officers at the Port of Melbourne intercepted the ecstasy
in the form of fifteen million tablets hidden in three
thousand tins, arriving from Naples, Italy in two thousand and seven.
The drugs found packed in a shipping container, weighed more
than four point four tons and had an estimated street
value of under own twenty two million. It was the
largest hall of ecstasy in the world at the time
(30:46):
of the seizure. Many of the tablets were stamped with
kangaroops no.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You knew where that was sending them.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
The Victorian Supreme Court heard many tins in the shipment
contained gravel and rocks to balance out the weight quote.
Two men jailed for importing up under in twenty two
million worth of ecstasy from Italy in tomato tins from
Peter crailin ABC News Friday, the fourth of July twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
The so called tomato tin case became the go to
when discussing how lawyer excess information influenced prosecutions. Among those
arrested and charged was Brob Korem, a long standing client.
While his lawyer represented him in court, happily taking his
appearance fee money, he also fed police intelligence about him.
(31:32):
According to later evidence, she not only passed on documents,
but also analyzed phone numbers and helped praise associations, which
is kind of the cops' jobs.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
How did the prosecutors, who had law degrees not think
for a second that this could be problematic?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I'm ninety percent sure the cops refused to tell them
who the informant was because she was very pretty?
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Did it time more full to the prosecutors for not
asking the question seriously.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Continuing to move forward without getting the answer.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, like fuck that is. I mean, I guess they
could turn around and say, look will for willful ignorance,
or maybe we're under the gun and we just didn't
have time to ask, or you know, we just we
wanted to get this conviction. I mean there's I suppose
there are explanations, but fuck you would think any prosecutor
(32:34):
worth their salt would want to know where their information
is coming from.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
When you go, your job is literally asking questions.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Lawyer Exis handlers routinely asked her to provide information about
her clients car registrations, phone numbers, addresses, nicknames, and financial affairs.
She was regularly tasked by handlers to ascertain the movements
of her clients, including mister Mockbell and mister Kurahm. She
also provided significant information that related to operations targeting mister
Mockbell's criminal enterprise from his associates such as mister Thomas,
(33:05):
mister Cooper, and mister Kurram. During one of her early
meetings with the SDU on the twenty second of September
two thousand and five, he told them that mister Thomas
and mister Cooper would both have sufficient information about mister
Mockbell to put him away for a long time. Quote
from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informant's
final Report, Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, age one hundred
(33:30):
and ninety two.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
And yes, I read the fucking fun report.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
There were there were a few like fun bits in there,
but most of it was just very technical stuff that
kind of flew over my head.
Speaker 3 (33:44):
I mean they they hided in that language for a reason,
you know, so that the everyday person don't understand.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Just how much they fucked up.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
It never should have happened. I mean, I've said it before,
like it's it's interesting. There are all these are like
royal commissions into the Victorian police force, you know, from
fuck nineteen eighty two today, and there are all these
royal commissions that dance around the problem. But the ro
(34:16):
is Victoria Police. The Royal Commission needs to be into
the Victorian Police and then conduct. And it's it's really
as simple as that.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
I think if you go that broad, it'll be like
the Queensland Police one and they'll just be like, it's
too corrupt. We have no idea what to do.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
There needs to be a better system of accountability. And
I think that better system of accountability for Australian police
is every five or six years, just a federal review
of each state police force, just a federal audit just
to make sure that everything is okay.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But make sure it's random so that they can't go
New South Wales was last year where this year is
so scrub everything?
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, exactly, you know it's it's hey expect in the
next six years that federal officers will come in and
order your state. Simple as that there needs to be
more accountability than zero accountability.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
When Lawyer X's role in all these arrests was finally
aired during the Royal Commission, it cast a shadow over
one of the most significant drug prosecutions the country had
ever seen. The public were led to the belief that
the smugglers were undone by diligent police work or customs inspections,
something no one in these organizations had any interesting correcting.
(35:34):
Dew could have imagined that a defense barrister, aide to
protect a client's liberty, had supplied the very state with
the rope that helped aim The Dale case told a different,
but equally troubling story. One of the most volatile strands
running through this Pole saga was a case of former
Drug Score detective Paul Dale. In two thousand and three,
(35:55):
Dale was caught up in the investigation into the burglary
of a drug house in Oakley. The house had been
under surveillance staffed with drugs and cash, and yet criminals
managed to strip it clean, with suspicions quickly turning towards
inside help. Dale and career criminal turned police informer Terrence
Hodson were arrested and charged over their involvement in the
(36:16):
break in. Hodson, staring down charges that would destroy him,
flipped against Dale, almost immediately agreeing to give evidence against
the police officer.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
In particular, Dale is accused of having provided information and
possibly worked with Carl Williams, the drug dealer and murderer
who himself was killed in his jail cell by Matthew
Johnson in twenty ten. Quote from Paul Dale, Carl Williams
and our trust in police Rick Surry, the Conversation published
March eighth, twenty thirteen. Now I won't rehash it, as
(36:51):
I pretty much covered it when we did talk about
Carl Williams. But Carl Williams' death in some through crime
circles is highly suspected to have occurred because he was
about to inform on many people, including police officers.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
That's not in doubt. What's in dowed is which person
paid to have it done well.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
That see, that's the thing too, you know? Was that
people within his own organization, was that people within rival organizations?
Was that the police? Was it even the prison guards?
Was it lux? Who was it? But there was there
were that many who could have beens that it probably
wasn't worth investigating.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
The cooperation between Hodson and the police was short lived.
In May two thousand and four, Hodson and his wife
Christine were executed in their q home, both gunned down
in what investigators described as a professional hit.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Not unlike the vampire, Jiggilow would also be killed in
similar fashion.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
I remember what episode number that one is. I'll put
him in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
It's like Charlie Day and that's always sunning in Philadelphia.
You've seen that meme where he's they're crazy with the boy.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Remember I was making that board. It got too complicated.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
It had to turn it digital.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
The killings sent shockwaves through Victorian police, not least because
Hodson had been on their books as an informer at
the time. The years afterwards, the murders remained an open
wound inside the force, an open reminder of the blurred
lines between police, their handlers, and the criminals they were
meant to be controlling.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
The main investigators into the Hudson murders, save Victorian Police
Command's protection of prized informer and barrister lawyer X destroyed
their chances of solving the chilling execution. In stinging statements
released on Tuesday night by the Royal Commission probing the
Lower X scandal, respected homicide detective Soul Solomon and retired
(38:47):
policeman Hemeryon Davy said the Hodson family would deny justice
because of the decisions of senior police. Detective Sergeant Solomon
said he had never experienced anything like this in his career.
He spoke to me more prominent members of the legal
profession without any encumbrances. He said, I now believe what
had been occurring between thirty eight thirty eight and Victorian
(39:09):
Police had a significant detrimental effect on the investigation into
the Hudson murders and caused the integrity of the investigation
to be compromised. Detective Sergeant Solomon said there are tragedies
associated with his whole saga, one of them being the
denial of justice to Terence and Christine Hodson and their family.
(39:30):
Cop cops noveled over Hudson murder probe. Investigators from Auntemmy
Williams August twentieth, twenty nineteen of the.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Age, attention inevitably circled back to Dale. In two thousand
and nine, he was charged again, this time with the
Hodson's murders themselves, after notorious gang LAMB boss Carl Williams
agreed to testify against him.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
And then died a year later.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
It was a remarkable development. Williams, already serving a life
sentence for multiple killings, had cut a deal to give
evidence implicating Dale in both the burglary and the executions.
Dale denied the allegations and prepared to fight the case
in court.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
Can you remember what Williams was getting out of this deal?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Probably put somewhere where he wouldn't get whacked.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
His daughter's a private education, was being paid for by
the Victorian government.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Well looking after his family.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Basically, basically, the Victorian Coroner has found there is not
enough evidence to safely conclude former police detective Paul Dale
and career criminal Rodney Collins were behind the murders of
police informer Terrence Hudson and his wife Christine. Eleven years ago.
Coronet Ian Gray said he was unable to conclude they
were responsible for the Hudson's death to the standard of
(40:43):
proof required. That's very important there, grace right to the
standard of proof required. The couple were shot down at
their q home in Melbourne's East and last year, and
in quest had explosive claims the drug boss Honey mock
Bell may have financed the killings on behalf of former
police detective mister Dale. Quote from Hudson inquest finding. Victoria
(41:07):
Coroinal rules there is insufficient evidence to charge Paul Dale
and Rodney Collins over deaths from Stephanie Ferrier Friday, the
thirty one of July twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
What is known, though, is that the prosecution's case included
testimony from lawyer X, listed under the pseudonym witness F.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
For friendly for female for fucking with the ethics. Ah,
that's a good one.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Her evidence was considered so sensitive that it was delivered
under extraordinary protective orders.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
It was real sensitive, real sensitive. Twenty eleven February, former
Victorian police officer mister Paul Dale is charged with criminal
offenses lower excess to give evidence in the proceedings. Mister
Dale subsequently serves as subpoena of Victorian Police seeking documents
could have revealed Lawyer Ex's status as a human source.
(42:04):
October as a result of mister Dale subpoena Victorian Police
of Pain's legal advice, you'll fucked. You're fucked up. Now
you're fucked and he's definitely going to be able to
subpoena that from you.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Go back twenty five years and don't fucking do it.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
That advice triggers the first of three confidential reviews into
the use of Lawyer X as a human source from
the Camrie Review quote from the Royal Commission into the
Management Police Informance final Report.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
But the legal machinery never got far enough to convict.
In twenty ten, Williams was murdered inside Barn Prison, ludgend
to death in the high security unit where he was
being held. With their star witness gone, prosecutors had little
left to work with and the Casey and Stale collapsed.
Questions mounted about disclosure prossgnamination was curtailed and the fact
(42:54):
that a barrister was appearing as a secret source was
never made public. When the matter was withdraw from the court,
suspicions lingered in criminal circles. The identity of Witness F
was whispered within certain legal and policing circles, and it
was increasingly obvious that the witness was not a simple
civilian but a practicing lawyer associate with a party or
(43:14):
parties involved in the case, who would strayed beyond the
boundaries of ethics, even if her actions were not technically illegal.
And I actually have the quote of the ethics that
she was violating here.
Speaker 3 (43:26):
So this comes from the Lawyer's Code of Ethics in
Victoria or is this Australia wide or.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
No, this is a Legal Services Council. This is specifically
the New South Wales one, but it also applies through Victoria.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Section one one nine. A barrister who is brief to
appear for two or more parties in any case must
determine as soon as possible whether the interests of the
client may as a real possibility conflict, and if so,
the barrister must then return the brief four A all
the clients in the case of confidentiality, which rule one
(43:59):
one four would apply, or b one or more of
the clients, so as to remove the possibility of conflict.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
How did she violate one? She's appearing for the cops
and for the criminals.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
She's a prosecution witness and she is a defense barrister
for people basically being prosecuted.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
She's taking the money and then setting them up.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah. Section one twenty. Barrister who believes on reasonable grounds
that the interests of the client may conflict with the
interests of the instructing solicitor, or that the client may
have a claim against the instructing solicitor must a advising
instructing solicitor of the barrister's belief, and b if the
(44:43):
instructing solicitor does not agree to advise the client of
the barrister's belief, seek to advise the client in the
presence of the instructing solicitor of the barrister's belief that
comes to you from the legal professional Uniform and conduct
of Barrister's Rule twenty fifteen. Services Council Rule one twenty
Conflict of Venturists versus July fifteen. They haven't updated since
(45:06):
twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Oh no, this was an amendment. Do amendments every couple
of years. It's just that the base law was put
in place in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I was just about to say that my code and
ethics gets updated nearly every year.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
It's a constant evolving document, but they leave the base
code as like code.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Oh fair enough, and that ladies and gentlemen, with that
little bit of legal ease, is where we're going to
leave you for this week. As we said, Lawyer X
is going to be our series strap in. It only
gets more interesting from here.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Matthew thinks there's going to be more boobies.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
I mean, people like salacious details. Holly, I just I
don't think there has ever been anyone in Australian criminal
history who has had so many relationships with so many
aspects of this world. You know, she was aware of
people who were trafficking, she was partaking, she was representing,
(46:06):
She was having sexual liaisons with both the criminal element
and the police element.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
She was going over to houses for dinner of a
Sunday night, she was socializing with you.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, it was as if she was almost like a
true crime groupie, you know. And that's what's so like
and believe it or not, these people exist like if
you go to crime coon, yeah, believe it or not
ere mentions over in America for the true crime. You know,
(46:38):
there are certain people that feel a certain way about you. Know,
true crime authors and you know, and they're interested in
super detectives and things like that. But that's sort of
how I would describe lawyer X as just someone who say,
I don't want to say attention seeking. I think that
simplifies this. I think she's she's very complex. I think
(47:01):
she's very very complex.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
I think she started out attention seeking, being one of
those pigmy pigmies, and then she realized how far she got, well,
how far she was over ahead.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
I think she enjoyed that aspect too. Like we'll talk
about her.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Swimming, but every now and then I feel like I'm
in over my head and I'm driving a little bit.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
We'll talk about her reaction to all of this. We'll
talk about a reaction to the publicity when it's finally outed.
All of that is yet to come. But yeah, she
is a very complicated person. And this case is an
example of police just ignoring every red flag, every red
(47:43):
flag until a royal commission has to be called for
this one person. It triggers an entire review of every
single informat over the last twenty years in Victorian policing.
It's huge. Just for one person, we're going to get
into more of that next week, but before we do
(48:03):
a little bit of housekeeping, don't forget if you'd like
to reach out to us. Perhaps you were represented by
lawyer X, or you knew someone who was partied with
lawyer X, or maybe you will a lawyer X's boyfriend
or girlfriend for a little while, you know, reach out
to us. You can find us on your social media
of choice just typing we Crapping Australia into the search bar.
(48:26):
You can also send us a good old fashioned email
to week crap in Australia at gmail dot com. You
can also help out the show by checking out our
Patreon friendly five dollars USD a month. You get access
to mainline episodes released early under part an ad free,
as well as a bonus minisot that we put together
every week just for our Patreon supporters. You can also
(48:49):
grab yourself We crap In Australia Volume one to six.
Mail told us I think we're about halfway through, maybe
even a little bit more on the signed edition of
volume six getting quick. They are going and Mal is
happy to sell them. I love selling those books, So
(49:12):
if you'd like to grab yourself assigned copy, as I've
said as well. When it comes to volume six, once
they're gone, they're gone. We don't know further shipments will
be signed, but to encourage people to really support little
local businesses, especially in pac Comics have been a supporter
of ours for years. They've stocked our books for years
(49:34):
and years, and mal always reorders. They've shown us more
love than any other place that we've tried to get
these books into, and they sell them. So we'd like
to help them out if you do grab let's say
you're buying volume six and you want to complete your
Weirk Crap in Australia collection. I think we just restock
(49:55):
them on volume one. Yes, yeah, so they're back in
stock on volume one again. I want to purchase any
of those books with Volume six and you'd like them autograph,
I'm happy to go down there and sign them for you.
Like honestly, it shows my appreciation for you behind the books,
and if it encourages more people to spend a few
more dollars with a local. Malt ships Australia wide, Malan
(50:18):
Cam the whole Impact Comics team. They ship Australia wide.
If you just want one book and you'd like a
recommendation for a graphic novel. Christmas is coming up. I'd
be happy to recommend something for the geeky nerd in
your life, because I think most couples have geeky nerds
(50:40):
in them. Now, yes to be a thing.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
If you're not a geeky nerd for mobile games, you're
a geeky nerd for movies or D and D or
video games. So everyone's got something. Even my self hating
nerd mother has something. He loves alien, she loves her
horror movie.
Speaker 3 (50:56):
Yes, here you go. I'm going to make some recommendations
for you right now. Get a pen. Okay, you want
Weird Craft in Australia Volume one to six. That's the
first thing you need to buy. Comic book recommendations. DC
Comics has just started a new sort of self contained universe.
They calling them absolutes. So there's Absolute Batman, Absolute to Man,
(51:20):
Absolute Wonder Woman. I would highly recommend picking up any
of those. They're just about to hit graphic novel or
have hit graphic novel, so that's the first six issues
or bound together in a nice hardback. Absolute Batman is
a fucking riot. If you really dig the classic Batman story,
(51:42):
throw it out. Imagine Batman as a civil engineer who
his parents were not millionaires, so it's sort of like
low t tech. Look, he turns you know those big
mining trucks. Yeah, yeah, he turns one of those into
(52:03):
a batmobile, the whole truck, right, and and he sort
of rigs up construction sites like little mini bat caves
all around the city. Like it's working class Batman. Right.
Take Jimmy Barnes, take Batman, and you get absolute Batman.
(52:23):
Absolute Superman is also very interesting. It's again it's a
it's about repositioning, you know. Palel, the alien who comes
from Crypton doesn't come from a scientist family. His mother
was a scientist who has kicked out the Science Guild.
Father was a farmer on Krypton and a very aware
(52:45):
Superman is sent to Earth as the last survivor of
Krypton and becomes basically a corporate saboteur the corporation that
investigates in the first couple of issues, Holly, they have
their own private police force who are all dressed Peacemaker.
And then Absolute wonder Woman. You have a wonder Woman
(53:07):
instead of being raised by the Amazonians, the baby is
created out of Clay the Little Wonder Woman Baby, but
it is immediately sent through the Greek version of Hell,
which is Tartarus. Yeah, Tarterus sent to Tartarus and is
protected by the wit Circe, and so that Wonder Woman
(53:28):
to get to Earth has to climb her way through Hell.
So that's the absolute books they're out on graphic novel. Now,
those are my recommendations. Pick those up from Impact Comics
if you're a fan of any of those, and again,
if you want recommendations, to shoot me an email. I'm
happy to pick those sales for mal Recently, what did
(53:49):
I pick up that only just came out? Alien versus
the Avengers, written by Jonathan Hickman.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
That makes it stupid? When did I first hear you
say that? I can't quite remember.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
It was when we were watching Titons and it was
the first live action appearance of Crypto, and Crypto absolutely
fucks up some swat guys like and I just remember
watching it being so esthetic at watching Crypto do that,
and then being like, wow, I'll make it stupid. But
(54:25):
there's nothing wrong with stupid fun, man, nothing wrong at all.
We need more stupid fun. And last, but at least
if you want to grab a wee crap and astray
your T shirt, I should get that dumb fun it's
fun on a T shirt. You can grab those from
our Tea Public and Red Bubble stores. Just like social
media typing we craping as straight into that search bar
and you'll see a bunch of cool designs that you
(54:47):
can slap on a different products, including mugs, T shirts,
and coasters. Otherwise, we give Polly the final words, which
is our custom. I did that in reverse this week.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
So something you said made me go, I wonder if
that's a thing. Hybristophilia is a phenomenon characterized by sexual
interest in and attraction to those who commit crimes. Was
only coined in nineteen eighty six, and is otherwise known
as the Bonnie and Clyde syndrome. Some of the most
notable examples are, of course, the women who flocked after
(55:18):
Dama Bundy, Childsmith and Richard Ramirez the Nightstalk. They all
had massive crime groupies, and some of them give birth
to alleged children.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Yeah, it's a paraphilia around the idea of if the
most dangerous predator on the planet considers me somewhat significant,
he won't kill me. He won't kill me, and he'll
protect me. Yeah, you know, which has not happened. But yeah, yeah,
(55:50):
I know. There were definitely some love children snuck out
of prison.
Speaker 2 (55:53):
Bundy is definitely one that's supposedly had one.
Speaker 3 (55:56):
Oh yeah, yeah, his daughter's out there, out there. Never
put a hand up to get any clean towards that.
Wouldn't want that, Holly, I wouldn't want that, Holy Holly. Hell.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
I mean sure, when I was a bullied kid at
school it probably would have been good.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
But no, I wouldn't want that, Holly. There are lots
of people who love fame.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yes, and they're only getting worse.
Speaker 3 (56:17):
Yes, yes, yes, say well that lovely thought. We will
leave it there. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay safe, be
clind to each other. We'll see you next week. From
all Week Craft in Australia. Until then, bye for now.
They The Weird Crap in Australia podcast is produced by
(56:46):
Holly and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown. If you've
enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review on your favorite
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