October 5, 2025 • 53 mins
Few scandals have shaken Australia’s justice system like the Lawyer X affair. At the center was a prominent barrister who secretly worked as a police informant, all while representing some of the country’s most notorious criminals. Her name was tied to dozens of figures on both sides of the law, leaving behind a trail of questions about loyalty, ethics, and justice.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO. They were last seen on the
beach with a tall man and that's the best description
police have ever had of it.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy A Beach, his widow has finally revealed
his last romantic words docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the YOWI.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's time the Weird Crap in Australian podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome to the wee Craft in Australia Podcast. I'm your host,
Matthew Sole. Joining me is a very excited Holly soul
who's about to get herself another kitten.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Maybe like it's still a ninety nine percent, it's.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
It's pretty close to confirmed. I would say it's.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Not confirmed until I'm holding her.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But one thing that we're all about here Weird Crap
in Australia is making sure you go out and grab
those rescue animals when the opportunity does present itself if
you have room for them, which is also really important.
You know a lot of people think they can take
on a lot of animals. It's been quite sad actually,
as I've been going through the RSPCA websites. You know,
(01:22):
if you've been following the Weird Crap in Australia podcasts,
you know that we lost our lovely cat Talia.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
July. God time flies, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It was middle of July.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So we were always going to, you know, go find
another rescue animal because that's you know what, We have
room and plenty of animals that need to be rescued.
What was really sad to see was on the RSPCA
website so many boxers, Staffi's and Staffy's are sitting in
(01:58):
you know, animal rescue centers.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
At the moment.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
People really underestimate these dogs and they pick them because,
in my opinion, they're we're almost like a designer dog
for certain people, you know, with a certain mentality.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, they're like, this will be a good guard dog.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Boxes take a lot of work. Are they high energy,
incredibly strong dogs and they need training.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It's it's sort of really bums me out that there
are a bunch of these. They're beautiful dogs too, absolutely
beautiful dogs. And it really really bums me out that
there are people who are like, you know, I need
the most masculine looking dog man, otherwise I'm not going
to get a dog. And they get these dogs, they
(02:54):
don't train them, they don't look after them, they don't
give them the attention that they need, and then when
they become a.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Problem, dump them, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And this is a problem in the act, you know,
lots of different shelters. I've been looking at to find
ourselves another little cat. We don't, unfortunately have room for
a dog in our unit, but we can definitely go
out there and grab another cat. And all I'm seeing
is boxes. So if you're someone who does love boxer
(03:24):
dogs and Stafford Sherry sorry, Holly Stafford, Harry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is Staffords Sheer here is Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yes, if you can look after Staffy's or boxes and
you have experience with those dogs and you're looking for
a new dog, definitely check out the RSPCA website there
because they do have quite a lot if you want
to get them, because they look cool.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
To look to a mirror and slape yourself in the face.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I don't advocate for violence. But yes, please don't do that.
Never never buy or sorry, I shouldn't say by, I
should always say rescue. Never rescue an animal based on
this animal looks cool? Right, you're walking into a world
of trouble. German shepherds, malamutes, huskies, bull terriers, staffees, wolfhounds
(04:21):
like these dogs need a lot of room, a lot
of care, and a lot of attention.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
The number of people who adopt things like collies and
put them in tiny little yards is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Collies need stimulation, that there was, there's a reason that
there there's you know, sheep dogs. So as we move
into kitten season, is puppy season as well?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I am unsure.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, But as we move into getting closer to Christmas,
we're hitting spring. Animals are being born, adoptions are considered,
Rescuers are being considered. You know, don't take them if
you don't have time for them. That's my little PSA.
(05:07):
Right now, we are in officially holly Spootober. Yes, Now,
last year I watched one horror movie every day for
October was a lot. I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Again this year, like four a week or something.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
No, Well, I watched I've done two in a row
like Lost I watched The Lost Boys, I watched The Fog.
So you know, if I miss a day, I'm not
going to be too particularly concerned about it.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to try and chew
through it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Like it was really interesting last year when I you know,
for people who have followed us on social media, you
would have seen, you know, every day I'm posting a
little mini review and I already posted my first one up.
I posted one for The Lost Boys, and it was
an eye opener for me just how much time I
have with my date. If I plan things properly, that
(06:01):
I could actually cram in a movie every single day.
But it does start to get a little bit much,
you know. I thought after October, like I was absolutely
done with horror films for the It was months. It
was months before I went out, you know, too much
of a good thing. I would recommend a couple of
(06:21):
Australian films if you are interested in getting a little
bit spooky. We're going to be doing a commentary. I
think we might have one more episode of Lawyer X
maybe Otherwise we're going to Mister Squiggle next week. After that,
we're going to do a commentary and we're going to
do a film called Lake Mungo. So you can watch
(06:42):
Lake Mungo. I think it's on a couple of streaming services.
Let me just chare. I know it's getting a new
four K release from Umbrella dot Com dot.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Au, Amazon Prime.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Amazon Prime. You can watch Lake Mungo, great Australian film.
Highly recommend that go check that out before we do
a commentary. It'll be fun to listen to a commentary
while we do it. That filmmaker went on to make
another Australian horror film nearly a decade after the fact,
maybe even a little bit more, which was called Late
Night with the Devil, which starred David Deshmuckian. I would
(07:17):
recommend both of those films, but I prefer La Mungo
over Late Night with the Devil. So those are two
Australian horror films that I would highly recommend. Obviously, everyone
is going to recommend Wolf Creek. I think that is
a little bit of a cliche at this point to
keep recommending Wolf Creek. But I would say Wolf Creek
one is great Australian film, will always be a great
(07:41):
Australian film. The second one is campy as fuck if
you enjoy campy as fuck horror.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Films, and not the tenth kind of campy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
No, it's just it's yeah, it's a little bit cartoony.
I think a little bit silly. The TV series is
Fucking Anything by the Philippel brothers as well, so.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
The crazy crazy idiots here.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, Bring Her Back is a very very hard movie
to watch. A friend of mine who watches a lot
of horror films, Josh, recently watched it. Asked me how
I got through it said, quite difficult. It's a difficult
film to watch, but it's a brilliant film. And there
are the Australian film Talk to me. There's another great
(08:29):
vampire film called Daybreakers, which stars Sam Neil.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And remembering that one, yep.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
William Dafoe. That's a bit of fun. So yeah, there
are a lot of Australian films out there. There's the
Wormwood series as well, Wormwood at w I M would
there's one and two. I think they're seen on Netflix
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
They're all right, they're a movie. They're in Australia, all right.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
There was that era where you could make a cheap
little Australian horror film film very very quickly, and there
were a couple of them got pumped out.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To be fair, there's been a couple of those erarors.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I mean, I have one called Undead. It's been a
while since we watched it, Holly. I have it on
the Umbrella series, The Beyond film so Beyond Genre Blu
Ray series. And if you recall, it's a zombie movie
for most of it, and then at the end, like
two aliens rock up and they cure everyone with the
(09:27):
magic water. Yeah, I remember, remember that, And the alien
turns around to the.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Other one like, why are you naked? Don't judge me, brother?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So yeah, lots of Australian films out there to enjoy
during your Halloween. There's also a subgenre of horror called
Samara Weaving Covered in Blood.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Actually a good genre to go investigate.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Actually I work with her uncle at the camera times,
samaraw Weav sorry no smarther Waving's father sorry, Keego Eaven's brother.
So I would recommend pretty much anything she's been in.
She's been in a couple of horror horror comedies, ready
or not. It was ready or not. That was the
Hide and sequence.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yet there's the one, the post apocalyptic one, the Devil
something I can't remember. That was all right, That was
pretty good. So yeah, lots of good horror films. Anything
by John Carpenter is worth watching. Though that being said,
to watch the Fog yesterday, I wasn't particularly impressed. I
actually think that might be one of his weakest. Going
(10:37):
back and watching the first Halloween is a fun one.
People have like a lot of different viewing orders for
Halloween films. With Michael Myers, my suggestion would be watching
the original with John Carpenter, watch Halloween whoy twenty I
want to say, maybe a bit earlier, maybe twenty eighteen twenty,
(11:01):
so skip its sequel, and then watch Halloween Ends. That
would be my Halloween trilogy.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So it was Halloween Ends is twenty twenty two, which
means that Halloween itself is.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Twenty eighteen, twenty twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
There was one in the middle, yeah, the one in
the middle was twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, so I would go John Carpenter's original, right, Halloween
twenty eighteen, and then Halloween Ends, Right, that's the Map trilogy, right.
Or you can go Halloween one, Halloween two, Halloween h
two O. Or you can go Rob Zombies Halloween one
(11:43):
and Halloween two.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Or this is Halloween one, Halloween Star Wars order right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You can go Halloween one, Halloween two, not Halloween three,
Halloween four, Halloween five, Halloween six, Halloween seven.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Actually like either Jason or Nightmare. I don't know which
one this is like.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Actually, Or you could go Halloween one, Halloween two, Halloween
h two, a Halloween Resurrection if you.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Want, You're right, it was twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
It was Tray eighteen.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yes, Jamie Lee Curtis has been killed multiple times in
different reboots of the series.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Did you know that that means she's just as immortal
as Michael Myers and the two are stuck in a
time loop in hell.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
There is Halloween Multiverse because of all those films that.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Have been made, and if they're in a time loop
in hell, that is Mike Cannon.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Six as well.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Scream, the very first screen film, which was one of
the first meta movies that we ever got, and a commentary.
I am still to this day a massive fan of
the Exorcist. If you want an interesting cult film, The
Exorcist three, skip Exorcist two and all the other Exorcist movies.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
If you want to play reference trivia, watch the Scary Movie.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, the parody of the parody, screen being the parody
of horror films, and then that being the parody of
the parody. And then of course you got all the classics.
Nightmare on Elm Street, the first one, maybe the third
one in New Nightmare again another meta film. Yeah, and Jaws.
I recently got to I watched Jaws. They did a
(13:21):
four K theatrical presentation at the Imax here in Camera
and I went and saw that, which was just fantastic, Like,
I love the shit out of that film. It built
in me this love of sharks, that film, which is
weird for people.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I know it's weird for you, Hollywooden I say that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Matthew kind of wants me to do an episode on
it because the Great White film was taken by an
Australian Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
The actual shark footage, and there's not a huge amount
of it, and I'm not talking about the puppet, talking
about the actual shark. There's not a huge amount of it.
But that was actually filmed by marine biologist off the
coast of Queensland. He would later go on to distance
himself from the film because it basically created this fear
(14:06):
towards sharks where people are more inclined to kill them,
especially after they, you know, there's any sort of Great
white shark attack. It's definitely worth just talking about his
career research that he did around the field of sharks
and then later obviously the controversy around Jaws. So yeah,
(14:26):
there is a little bit of Australian in a little
bit of Australian film footage in Jaws as well.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We are very subtly in all cinema.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, Holly enough with the Halloween stuff.
People are desperate for me to shut up as I've
done a PSA on animal adoption and talked about Halloween
films I like, So probably time to get into the
actual episode. This is episode three hundred and eighty two,
Part two of Lawyer X.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Inside Victoria. Police opinions on the use of Lawyer X's
testimony clashed. Some officers insisted that using a lawyer as
an informer was a line that should never have been crossed,
that it would damage their relationship with their own sources. Others,
particularly those involved in Task Force Purana, argued that the
intelligence was too valuable to lose and that the ends
(15:16):
justified the means. Each fresh Gangland murder raised pressure to
deliver results, and in the pursuit of convictions, the police
placed a premium on short term advantage, ignoring any long
term consequences that their actions could bring to themselves, their witnesses,
or their legal process.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I mean, after Marine was killed in front of his children,
that sort of you know, that was the tipping point.
I mean, there was there was stuff leading to that,
of course, but you know, it begins with the Russell
Street bombings. Wall Street makes it worse. It's the feud
between the police and the Gating sort of escalate, but
(15:56):
it's contained to them. But then when it becomes so
blatant that the people are being executed in front of
their children at three o'clock on a weekday.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Afternoon, Saturday Saturday morning.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The escalation has got an extreme and I think at
that point, you know, there is this Hugetorian police that
are either corrupt or summarily executing people that they believe
(16:32):
are cop killers, and that element is pulling everyone else
into it. So you know, I think there's desperation externally,
there's external pressures. Obviously the government at the time was
not happy with Ganglan killings. There's public pressure, you know,
father's been executed in front of their children at sports games.
(16:53):
And then there's this internal pressure of you've you know,
you've got on one side, you've got corruption, and then
on the other side you've got this unshare esque mentality
by bad cops. So you know, you could say that
it's a there is a lot of pressure on certain
police officers to utilize this bad source. Not saying it's justified,
(17:16):
but you can understand why they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Lawyer X herself appeared to both drive and power in
her role. She was, by turns anxious and reckless, sometimes
begging handless for protection, sometimes volunteering startlingly detailed intelligence. At
one point, she offered to wear a wire to work,
proposing to record conversations with her own clients.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Mockbell now says that Lawyer X, the lawyer ratting him out,
police advised him to fuck off overseas, so he did.
In favor of Mockbell's version of events is an unlikely source.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
ROBERTA.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Williams it told Downsey and Kralin in twenty eighteen that
Lawyer X told her husband Carl to leave the country
soon before he was imprisoned. In two thousand and four,
both Williams and Mockbell independently claimed years apart the Lawyer
X told them to disappear. It's hard to know if
their declarations are accurate. Getting Williams of Mockbell out of
(18:15):
her life by advising them to escape would have offered
Lawyer X reprieves from her day to day turmoils. The
idea would support notions of her reckless sense of empowerment.
Then again, the claim seemed to suffer from an unlikely
lack of strategy on her part. Quote from Lawyer X,
Downsley and Kralin, HarperCollins, twenty twenty, page one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
By the late two thousands, the arrangement the police had
negotiated with Lawyer X was freeing other lawyers had begun
to suspect irregularities as clues to the identity of the mole.
Prosecutors sometimes appeared to anticipate their targets and defense strategy
with uncanny accuracy. Documents surfaced in discovery that suggested insider
(18:58):
access documents there was no way the police should have
been able to access.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
At the time. Though others received most of the blame,
lawyers are a grade. Wilson was soon accused of tipping
off Mockbell about the Michael Marshall and Las Marine murder charges,
gabing Mockbell's solicitor presented as an easy mark but no guard.
Wilson would later tell Downsey in Kralin a decade later
she did not tip off Tony Mockbell from Lawyer X
(19:25):
Dowseley in Kralon HarperCollins twenty twenty age one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Convicted criminals and their lawyers began to question their relationships
and whether their trials had been compromised by the state's
use of these duplicitous informants. Appeals and inquiries mounted against
convictions began to open, causing a spike in the legal system,
a system that was not necessarily trusted by those under
its wing anymore. But it wasn't all sunshine and roses
(19:53):
for Lawyer X. There was great danger. With members of
the criminal underworld now actively hunting the leak, there was
only a of time before the truth came out.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
The exposure of her long term relationship with Victorian police
as a human source, the possibility of an OPI or
government review into the legal and ethical implications of having
used a serving barrister as a human source, and the
potential for prosecutions on foot to be jeopardized. Quote from
the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants, Final Report,
(20:23):
Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, page two sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Lawyer X had to start playing at smarter, but she
had never really been one to dip below the radar.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
We mentioned this last episode.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Even at university, when she stood up in front of
her class declared herself an informaniac and then walked out.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
There's some interesting things when we look at Lawyer X.
Now again, I want to put this forward. Make sure
I'm being very very clear here. I do not, nor
will I ever have the ability to diagnose someone with
mental illness unless I do a psychology degree. So I
(21:07):
want to make that very clear before we continue.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There is.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Elements of risk taking behavior that Lawyer ex exhibits that
you could use as evidence for mental illness. Many episodes,
depressive episodes, extreme risk taking, a secret keeping deception, manipulation,
(21:40):
you know, that double role between the police and the
underworld clients. Holly, she did report and was later diagnosed
with PTSD, which doesn't surprise me. There has been suggestion
that she is suffering from something along the lines of
(22:03):
bipolar However, no formal diagnosis has ever been delivered for her.
But this is not an example of someone who is
acting within a healthy mental range. If that makes sense,
it does, and that goes while police are not expected
(22:30):
to be on hand psychologists, while they're not suspecting, you know,
they're not expected to be counselors or mental health care workers.
I think it's fair to say that, and this one,
this is probably really important. I think it's fair to
(22:53):
say that they are trained in recognizing the signs of
erratic behavior in At no point did anyone around her
think that this was a bit strange, or if they did,
they dismissed it because they were getting convictions. And we've
talked about the ethical side of that in the last episode,
(23:15):
so we're not going to rehash that. But talking about
a human to human element here, police should have known better,
They should have known something was up. You would have
had to really really look the other way to ignore
all these signs.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The most basic point is why the fuck would a
defense lawyer be working with them, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
And why would they be working with them in this capacity?
And the prosecutors, who like they would have had to
have known more than they say they did. The fact
that they were willing to run these trials with this
witness is just astounding to me. I'm shock no one
(23:58):
lost their.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
License, considering there was like a ninety chance that every
single one of these convictions was going to be overturned
because her position. Maybe they thought that they'd get them
into the jail and then they'd be killed off and
then it wouldn't come back to bite them on the
ass later.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Thank you for once again doing that classic holy thing
that you do. No, Holly, I don't. I don't think
that the proved it. I don't think that prosecuting lawyers
in Victoria thought that they could feed all of these
clients into a meat grinder so that they would be
(24:35):
killed in prison and that would happen quick enough so
that that wouldn't overturn their conviction should lawyer Ex's identity
be established. No, Holly, I don't think that's very plausible.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I think the fact that disproving my wildest theories, I.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Need more imagination.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Huh No, I think you have fun.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Disprove I do have a little bit of fun. I'm
pointing out that you're extremes yes, looking for the perfect
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Speaker 3 (25:57):
Now back to.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
The show, r X would just have to endure this attention.
By twenty fourteen, Victoria Police had, under court pressure, acknowledged
that they used a barrister as an informant, but they
fought the courts to keep her identity secret. Media outlets
pressed to find the informant's identity, but suppression orders block publication, which.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Doesn't surprise me. I think the judiciary was probably shitting
their pants.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It was a vested interest in keeping her her identity
quiet from a lot of angles.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, Police and Victoria spent four point five too million
in legal costs attempting to prevent the release of information
about the use of a gangland lawyer as an informant.
Suppression orders preventing the publication of information about what has
become known as the Lawyer X or in Former three
eight three eight case was lifted by the High Court
on Monday, following a two year legal battle. Police and
(26:54):
the woman known as Lawyer X were attempting to block
Commonwealth and state prosecutors from releasing information about her role
as an informer on her gangland clients, several of whom
were convicted after she gave confidential information about them or
their associates to police. Quote from Victorian policeman four point
five to million on legal cost to protect lawyer excess
(27:14):
safety callor wealth quist The Guardian, Sunday, ninth of December
twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
The crucial turning point in the informance case came in
the High Court of Australia in twenty eighteen. Abvers CD,
EF VERCD.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The representing lawyers in that case was Cookie Monster, the
Count as well as Big Bird who buy the witness Elma. Yes,
all of those individuals have a lot of experience with
ABCND and I believe that they had to take on
(27:53):
a few extra city courses to be able to make
determinations around.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
EF and CD as well.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Now, I believe that was that was sponsored by the
color Purple as well, and in.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Order to make their findings, I had to look through
the diamond window today.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You just mixed it up. You mixed it up at
the end of Sesame Street. At the end of Sesame Street.
It was also like brought to you by the number
one and the color of this and then you made
a play School reference.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's been a very long time. I don't remember anything
about Sesame Street, and I barely remember anything about Play
School since we recorded that episode. The case was heard
under pseudonyms, but it was clear the argument was fought.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
No how long it takes me like to, you know,
to make smooth improvisations like that, and then all it
takes is one Holly, one Holly.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Let me just stick that that spike in those Spokeshllet.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, make a big joke about Sesame Street. Then she's
like and play school. I'm harwy.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Could the state withhold the identity of an informer when
doing so risk concealing miscarriages of justice? Was it acceptable
that prosecutions proceed while the defense was compromised by said prosecution?
The High Court made a unanimous decision that to prosecute
while the client's lawyer, whether representing during the trial or not,
(29:24):
was working for the other side, was a miscarriage of justice.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I mean it is. You just can't see it from
any other perspective. It is a breach of ethics that.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
The presumption of lawyer client privileges would allow the lawyer
to access more inside knowledge than the average observer, and
to use that position was to mark aus stain on
the whole institution, as well as compromise the cases that
the lawyer is involved.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
In the lifting of the court orders allowed prosecutors to
write twenty two people on Monday informing them that they
may have grounds to launch an appeal underwell figures. Tony Mockbell,
Robed Currum and the family of Carl Williams, who was
murdered in prison while serving life sentence for murder, are
reportedly considering appeals. The High Court described it as an
atrocious and reprehensible case of police misconduct and an appalling
(30:09):
breach of lawyer access duty to both her clients and
to the court. It prompted the Victorian government to call
a Royal commission to examine how many criminal convictions, including
those of some of the most high profile figures of
Melbourne's Ganglian wars, and how they may be affected. Quote
from Victorian police spent four point five to two million
on legal costs.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
In their judgment, the justices described the lawyer's conduct as
appalling and declared that police, by encouraging and benefiting from it,
had corrupted the criminal justice system. The Court held that
the public interest in disclosure far outweighed the usual protection
of informers, and that affected convictions had to be revisited.
(30:53):
The High Court ruling was seismic It demolished years of
suppression orders and opened the way for media public head.
The media blackout that had protected Lawyer X was lifted,
and her identity soon became public knowledge. This decision affected
hundreds of cases, possibly more, as investigations into the use
of informants in Victorian policing opened their books to begin.
(31:18):
In December twenty eighteen, mere days after the High Court's decision,
newspapers splashed the identity of the mole across their front pages.
The mysterious Lawyer X, long hinted at in legal circles
and whispered about in the press, was not a gangster
or a corrupt official, but a criminal defense barrister who
had betrayed her very dangerous and powerful clients while acting
(31:40):
as a police source.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
For anyone with even a vague interest in Melbourne's gangland wars.
The true identity of in former three eight three eight
a Lawyer X was arguably the worst kept secret in Melbourne.
A quick Internet search would reveal it, a fact Miss
Gobbo herself was accurately aware of, and that was also
a very unfortunate last night as well for a lot
of stand up comedians took a lot of luxury with it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I will admit reading the book every time I saw
her name, for like the first two chapters.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I'm like, if you're not aware, maybe this is not
current vernacular anymore, but definitely when Holly and I were
growing up, to get a gobbo blow job with a
euphemism for oral sex, I was going to go like
a highbrow with it.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Nah, Holly, you got a qualify it.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Qualifying it. Yeah, that's a that's the word for it.
That's a verb.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
A Google search of my name is quite literally sickening,
let alone googling loyal Lawyer X scandal. Miss Goobo wrote
an a twenty fifteen letter to police. There isn't anyone
in Victoria who doesn't know who Lawyer X is. Quote
from Lawyer X identified Sarah Farnsworth, ABC News, Friday, the
first March twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
The shock was immense across wider society, not only for
the legal and criminal community, both for the wider public.
Many of the convicted men were despised underworld figures, but
the principle at stake was larger than any individual well.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
It affected.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
People's trust that the criminal justice system in Victoria, at
the very least was functioning as it was intended to function,
and regardless of how we feel about criminals and what
they say and do, this has to remain a steadfast
part of our criminal justice system. You are entitled to
(33:33):
a good defense. It's so so important because not every
single person who employs a defense lawyer has committed the crime,
and so a good defense is also very, very important.
(33:54):
Otherwise you might as well throw it all out. And
the fact that someone's defense lawyer was acting against their
intro rus and going against the ethics and privileged information
and providing it back to the police, and the police
were happy to do it, and the prosecutors were happy
to use that evidence. Again, I still, I still don't
understand how those prosecutors did not shut that that shit
(34:17):
down unless they were completely kept in the dark, and
I just don't believe they were. I'm surprised lawyers didn't
lose their licenses over this.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I believe that prosecutors are given the name of informers,
they're just not allowed to publicize it or say it
in court.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, if they knew that name, then they should have
known fucking matter. I honestly think it should have gone
further than just the inquest. I think prosecutors should have been,
you know, disbarred for using that witness knowing what they
were doing.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Look, pops don't care about the war.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
The closing sprape, right like they know so they know
the fundamentals or they have a reasonable understanding. But they're
not lawyers either, right, they would have probably seen it
from this perspective. Here's a lawyer, he's acting as a witness.
(35:18):
She's providing this information. We can use that information. It's
up to the prosecutors to turn around and say we
can't use this, like, stop utilizing this witness. We can't
use this witness. And if this witness, if it comes
out who they are, it could completely dismantle the Victorian
(35:38):
criminal justice system, or at least the faith in it
from the public's perspective. So we can't do this. So
I give the police a little bit of leeway. They're
under immense pressure from the public, immense pressure from the government,
and as far as they're concerned, this is a witness
who is willingly providing information. They're not lawyers. We don't
(35:59):
expect police to be lawyers, which is why there are
lawyers employed. When you have to prosecute police for misconduct, right,
the prosecutors don't get to have that like, they don't
get that escape route. They don't get to turn around
and say, well, you know, we're just here to get
the prosecution.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
No you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
You're also there to make sure that you comply with
the ethics. And again I'm shocked that the prosecutors won't Disbard.
I'd love to know what those conversations were like, because
I imagine some of those prosecutors were brought in before
the judges who looked over this case, and the people
looking over the Royal Commission, which would have been the
Victorian government, who turned around and said to them, what
(36:40):
were you thinking? Like, you know, if you had the
name of those prosecutors, you would never ever hire them
as a personal lawyer.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I'd tell you that much.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No way in hell.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
If they can't understand the basic ethics of their industry,
then they shouldn't be practicing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
If a lawyer could so casually break privilege collaborate with police,
that no client, guilty or innocent, could trust their counsel.
This demolished a long standing assumed pillar of the legal
system and threatened impartiality that held the system up itself.
But just who was this lawyer who was willing to
(37:17):
throw away her career, possibly her life, for the cause.
Nicola Gobo was born in nineteen seventy two into a
prominent Melbourne family deep pies to the legal world. Her uncle,
Sir James Gobo, went on to become Governor of Victoria
in nineteen ninety seven to two thousand, and her family
name carried significant weight in legal and civic circles. Gobo
(37:42):
studied law at the University of Melbourne, where she quickly
distinguished herself as ambitious and academically sharp. From the outset
of her career, she was drawn to criminal law, which
inevitably placed her in close contact with Melbourne's growing underworld.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Gobo was openly ambitious and thrilled by the variety of
criminals cases Diamond dished out. Each day, she woke up
wondering who she would meet and where.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
She would go.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
She was exposed to police briefs of evidence against her
clients for the first time. She prided herself on exposing
the flaws of logic and the underlying faults of the
police investigation. She learned the difference between thorough and sloppy
police puff.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
There are some puns that I.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Could make using the kind of language most would not
expect to hear in the man.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
You're gonna have to read this quote again because you'll
laughing too much.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
This is this is not fair. He learned the difference
between thorough and sloppy police work using the kind of
language most would not expect to hear in the mouth
of a solicitor. She called the officers responsible, liars and pocksuckers.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
If she was getting to know lawyers and cops, she
was getting to know Diamonds criminal clients too. Tony Mackbell
sweet talked female staff at Diamond's office and presented them
with gift cards one Christmas. The beginnings of their association
as lawyer and client were more vexed. She accompanied Tony
Mackbell to court as a junior solicitor for a balu
surety for his brother Haughty. He stated that he solely
(39:12):
owned a property which he did not. He was charged
with perjury and Gobbo was called as a witness for
the failed case against him. It was the start of
a long and often fraught relationship. Quote from lawyer ex
Dowzy and Crazlin, page twenty eight to twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
By the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands, she
was representing some of the most notorious figures in the
city's gangland wars, gaining a reputation for boldness in court
and for cultivating unusually close relationships with her client Some
of her more dangerous clients included the Morans and the Mockbells,
the Barbaros, Ghaddo and Carl Williams, all the biggest names
(39:52):
in Melbourne's underworld. Her work blurred the line between professional
advocacy and personal involvement. Gobo frequently socialized with the very
clients she represented, including members of the Carlton Crew and
other underworld groups, which gave her unparalleled insight into organized
crime operations in Victoria. Yet this closeness undermined the professional
(40:16):
distance the legal ethics required. At the same time, she
was struggling with health problems. In the late nineteen nineties,
she suffered a serious illness that left her weakened, an
issue that police later acknowledged made her more vulnerable to pressure.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And of course, mental illness.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
This combination of proximity to clients and personal fragility positioned
her uniquely for recruitment as a police informer.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Previously, most human sources were recruited after they had committed
criminal offenses. From facing a prison sentence, police and persuaded
them to cooperate by appealing to the self interest and
a reduced sentence. The SEU, however, was keen to recruit
a different type of human source. Mister Whitt considered that
Miss Gobbo, a criminal lawyer who socialized with her clients
and play police, could meet the esdu's needs to combat
(41:02):
the gangland wars. He also thought that her stroke might
make her vulnerable and more susceptible to recruitment. In August
two thousand and four, the MDD created a profile on
Miss Gobbo's Meanwhile, Miss Gobbo's relationship with mister Bateson became closer.
On the twenty third of March two thousand and five,
she find to thank him for ensuring her that her
(41:22):
name was not mentioned during mister Thomas's committal hearing. On
the nineteenth of May two thousand and five, she told
mister Bateson that she had information of interest. They met
on the twenty third of May two thousand and five,
the first occasion in which she provided him information they
kind expected from a human source. It concerned mister Carl Williams,
Mister George Williams, mister Tony Mockbell and mister Mockbell Solicitor
(41:46):
Solicitor two a pseudonym. It was the first of several
such meetings between June and August two thousand and five.
Quote from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Police attention fell on ung Gobbo as early as nineteen
ninety five, when her home was raided during investigation into
drug activity. Although she was not convicted, the incident put
her on Victoria Police as radar. In the early two thousands,
she was formally registered as a human source code named
Informers three eight three eight, and began passing on confidential
(42:20):
information about her clients. Over the years, she became one
of the most prolific informants in the state's history, with
her intelligence feeding directly into investigations of drug trafficking, organized crime,
and even police corruption. Testimony was central in pieces such
(42:41):
as that against former detective Paul Dale, who was linked
to the murders of police informer Terence Hodson and his wife.
At the same time, she continued to appear as a
barrister for many of the individuals she was informing on,
creating an irreconcilable conflict of interest.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
In his evidence to the Commission, mister Dale said of
his relationship with Miss Gobo that there was a crossover
of professional and personal. He explained, and a mob of
those occasions where we met either as a result of
either eye contacting her or however it happened as went
from speaking at a cafe, bar, whatever, over lunch, dinner,
whatever happens to be too many drinks and a lot
(43:20):
of things were said. She certainly told me a lot
of things that you wouldn't expect her to tell about
her clients. He said that Miss Gobo was at times
his legal adviser and they had conversations that he considered
were legally privileged. Quote from the Royal Commission into the
Management of Police Informants.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Again we cover this last episode, but I do want
to reiterate you are protected through privilege for the crime
that you're being defended against. But if you talk about
or two or around your lawyer a different crime, they
illegally obligated to call the police. It is not a
(44:00):
complete catual.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, absolutely right. So if you're talking to your defense lawyer.
Let's say you have been pined for stealing. Let's say
you've broken into a store stolen some jewelry. Anything regarding
that case is considered privilege. But if you then turn
around and say, well, you know, in nineteen ninety nine,
I was also involved in a stick up robbery where
(44:24):
someone was killed. The person that was killed was this person.
I feel very bad about it. Their lawyer is then
required to report on you.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So just be careful what you say to your word.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
And look, it's the same with counselors. Believe it is
the same with psychologists as.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Well, and doctor's healthcare profess.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Doctor's healthcare professionals, you are entitled to client privilege. Let's say,
for example, Holly is my client and she says to me,
you know, when I was a younger person, I went
to a circus clown the heart attack on stage, and
so I've always been afraid of public spaces and clowns.
(45:06):
Right if then I went and said to my friend, oh,
how silly is it that this client, holy soul, is
scared of clowns because one died in front of her
when she was young. They have broken confidentiality. However, if
Holly turned around and said, I don't like clowns because
(45:27):
when I was younger, a clown scared me at the circus.
So I've routinely been shooting clowns in the head, and
I'm going to keep doing this because the circus is
in town. I'm going to shoot another clown tonight. I
am then required to break my client confidentiality with Polly
because she is either threatening harm to herself or harm
to others, or as willing to commit an illegal act. Now,
(45:50):
within the counseling framework, you also have supervisors that you
are meant to approach who have more experience than you,
so that you can confirm that confidentiality is ready to
be broken. In the case of someone being hurt or
the client hurting themselves, you can break that confidentiality right away.
Now a caveat to this is client information can be
(46:15):
subpoened by a port and so that privilege changes yet again.
So it's very very important to remember what client and
lawyer confidentiality covers, and it also has a much more
narrower framework than you would expect. Just like healthcare professionals,
(46:41):
I really like legal and ethics as part of my studies.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
That's why I figured I'd give you a chance to
say it again.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
I should have probably been a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Because of all these irregularities in process and relationship, the
corruption of the informer system, a reckoning had to happen,
and it was called. As soon as Lawyer X's identity
was publicized.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
On the thirteenth thirty seven, twenty eighteen, her Her Excellency,
the Honorable Linda Dasiaux AC signed letters Peyton appointing the
Honorable Margaret murdo AC as Commissioner of the Royal Commission
into the Management of Police Informants. At ten am on
the thirtieth November twenty twenty, Commissioner McMurdo delivered her final
(47:23):
report in recommendations to the Governor of Victoria, thereby completing
the Commission's work. The Commission's final report is over one
thousand pages long and made up of four volumes plus
a summary with recommendations. Royal Commission into the Management of
Police Informances Website, eighteenth May twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
The Royal Commission began in earnest in twenty nineteen, taking
evidence from police officers, lawyers, clients and experts. The Commission's
purpose was to measure the scale of the problem when
it came to the use and abuse of police informants,
determine how this corruption of the system had been allowed
to occur, and recommend reforms to prevent it happening in
the future. It's findings we're damning.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
And that's ladies and gentlemen. Is where we're going to
pick it up next week. So we are going to
go to a part three. Holy, yay, yay.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
More lawyer X Holly, we'll find some more stories put
in here for you.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yes, yes, where we'll have to beef up part three,
but I do think that is a good place leave it.
Just before we let you go, don't forget there is
a little bit of housekeeping. If you would like to
get in touch with us, you can find us on
your social media of choice. Just type in weird Crap
in Australia into the search bar. Predominantly most people communicate
through Facebook, but we are active quote unquote on all
(48:41):
other social media platforms except for X. You can also
get in touch with us with a good old fashioned email,
which is how a lot of people get in touch
with us.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
We quite enjoy those emails.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Especially Andrew, who actually sent us some message, a very
long message this week.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Yes with a recommendation for some subject, which is very cool.
We always like those as well. To do what Andrew did,
just send us an email through to Weak Crap in
Australia at gmail dot com. If you would like to
support the show, you can find us on Patreon. For
only five dollars USD a month, you get access to
our bonus minisodes as well as these episodes released early
(49:18):
and uncut when at free. You can also grab a
Week Crap In Australia T shirt and other merchandise from
our Teapublic and Red Bubble stores. Just like social media,
you just type in weirk crap and Australia into their
search engines you'll see all our wonderful designs and last
but not least, a book, Volume six, the Week Crap
In Australia series is available from our great mates at
impact coomics dot com dot au. I think they may
(49:40):
still have a few signed copies left, but those stock
That stock is running out quick, so make sure you
get in for that. Volume one to five are al
so available. They do make wonderful Christmas presents as well.
For that history buff in your life, or that person
who enjoys true crime or aliens or just weird stories
in general. There's a lot of work that goes into
(50:01):
those books. It is a little bit different from the podcast.
While we do reutilize the information from the scripts, they're
presented in a more sort of condensed anthology sort of
style of books.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
So they are a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
And they're also updated as new things happen.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Volume one is up to version three already.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
There's also correspondence in the back as well as some
photos from evidence related to different cases.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
Nothing to gory.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Transcripts of interviews is also in volume six yep.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So there's lots of really good fun stuff in volumes
one to six there, so I few with like We're
Crapping and Collectible in your Life, I would highly recommend
our book series, Still Independent and Proud. You can also
pick up the kindle edition from the Amazon Kindle Store
and if you're living overseas Lulu dot com. As you
(50:54):
covered here locally, you want to pick that up from
Impact Comics dot com dot Au And is our tradition
here at wee Crap in Australia, we give Polly the
final words. Do you know why we start? Actually, just quickly,
do you know why we had to start that? No,
you don't remember. I was thinking about this the other day.
We had to start that because I would finish up
(51:17):
an episode. This was way back in the early days,
and you would say something again, and we just kept
going back and forth. It became like a tug of
rope with Polly to the point where I was like,
you know what, I just need to give her the
end so that we've signaled that it's the end and
then I can wrap up the podcast. So Holly, in
(51:38):
honor of that tradition, of course, we give you the
final words.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Some of the cases that Lawyer X's little informing Adventure
ended up impacting include those against Tony Mockbell, Simon Overland,
Paul Dale, Rob Kerrahm, jan Visa, Zalty Keveski, Pascual Babaro,
and Francesco Mdaffrey. So there are some very big members
(52:05):
of the gangland who her involvement has now suscrewed the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
There's a lot of stuff that's going to be unfolding
over the next coup of years because of the revelations.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
I'd say it's going to take at least a decade.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
And let's a little teaser for the next episode. We'll
get you straight into it for the next one. Thank
you so much for joining us. As I always say,
please be safe, be kind to each other, especially at
the moment. We'll see you well next week for more
Weird Crap in Australia. Till then bye for now. They
(52:49):
The Weird Crap in Australia podcast is produced by Holly
and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review on
your favorite pod catching app.
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO. They were last seen on the
beach with a tall man and that's the best description
police have ever had of it.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared into raging
surf at Chevy A Beach, his widow has finally revealed
his last romantic words docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the YOWI.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's time the Weird Crap in Australian podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Welcome to the wee Craft in Australia Podcast. I'm your host,
Matthew Sole. Joining me is a very excited Holly soul
who's about to get herself another kitten.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Maybe like it's still a ninety nine percent, it's.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
It's pretty close to confirmed. I would say it's.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Not confirmed until I'm holding her.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
But one thing that we're all about here Weird Crap
in Australia is making sure you go out and grab
those rescue animals when the opportunity does present itself if
you have room for them, which is also really important.
You know a lot of people think they can take
on a lot of animals. It's been quite sad actually,
as I've been going through the RSPCA websites. You know,
(01:22):
if you've been following the Weird Crap in Australia podcasts,
you know that we lost our lovely cat Talia.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
July. God time flies, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
It was middle of July.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So we were always going to, you know, go find
another rescue animal because that's you know what, We have
room and plenty of animals that need to be rescued.
What was really sad to see was on the RSPCA
website so many boxers, Staffi's and Staffy's are sitting in
(01:58):
you know, animal rescue centers.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
At the moment.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
People really underestimate these dogs and they pick them because,
in my opinion, they're we're almost like a designer dog
for certain people, you know, with a certain mentality.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, they're like, this will be a good guard dog.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Boxes take a lot of work. Are they high energy,
incredibly strong dogs and they need training.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You know.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It's it's sort of really bums me out that there
are a bunch of these. They're beautiful dogs too, absolutely
beautiful dogs. And it really really bums me out that
there are people who are like, you know, I need
the most masculine looking dog man, otherwise I'm not going
to get a dog. And they get these dogs, they
(02:54):
don't train them, they don't look after them, they don't
give them the attention that they need, and then when
they become a.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Problem, dump them, you know.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And this is a problem in the act, you know,
lots of different shelters. I've been looking at to find
ourselves another little cat. We don't, unfortunately have room for
a dog in our unit, but we can definitely go
out there and grab another cat. And all I'm seeing
is boxes. So if you're someone who does love boxer
(03:24):
dogs and Stafford Sherry sorry, Holly Stafford, Harry.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is Staffords Sheer here is Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yes, if you can look after Staffy's or boxes and
you have experience with those dogs and you're looking for
a new dog, definitely check out the RSPCA website there
because they do have quite a lot if you want
to get them, because they look cool.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
To look to a mirror and slape yourself in the face.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I don't advocate for violence. But yes, please don't do that.
Never never buy or sorry, I shouldn't say by, I
should always say rescue. Never rescue an animal based on
this animal looks cool? Right, you're walking into a world
of trouble. German shepherds, malamutes, huskies, bull terriers, staffees, wolfhounds
(04:21):
like these dogs need a lot of room, a lot
of care, and a lot of attention.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
The number of people who adopt things like collies and
put them in tiny little yards is ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Collies need stimulation, that there was, there's a reason that
there there's you know, sheep dogs. So as we move
into kitten season, is puppy season as well?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
I am unsure.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, But as we move into getting closer to Christmas,
we're hitting spring. Animals are being born, adoptions are considered,
Rescuers are being considered. You know, don't take them if
you don't have time for them. That's my little PSA.
(05:07):
Right now, we are in officially holly Spootober. Yes, Now,
last year I watched one horror movie every day for
October was a lot. I'm not doing that.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Again this year, like four a week or something.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
No, Well, I watched I've done two in a row
like Lost I watched The Lost Boys, I watched The Fog.
So you know, if I miss a day, I'm not
going to be too particularly concerned about it.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to try and chew
through it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Like it was really interesting last year when I you know,
for people who have followed us on social media, you
would have seen, you know, every day I'm posting a
little mini review and I already posted my first one up.
I posted one for The Lost Boys, and it was
an eye opener for me just how much time I
have with my date. If I plan things properly, that
(06:01):
I could actually cram in a movie every single day.
But it does start to get a little bit much,
you know. I thought after October, like I was absolutely
done with horror films for the It was months. It
was months before I went out, you know, too much
of a good thing. I would recommend a couple of
(06:21):
Australian films if you are interested in getting a little
bit spooky. We're going to be doing a commentary. I
think we might have one more episode of Lawyer X
maybe Otherwise we're going to Mister Squiggle next week. After that,
we're going to do a commentary and we're going to
do a film called Lake Mungo. So you can watch
(06:42):
Lake Mungo. I think it's on a couple of streaming services.
Let me just chare. I know it's getting a new
four K release from Umbrella dot Com dot.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Au, Amazon Prime.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Amazon Prime. You can watch Lake Mungo, great Australian film.
Highly recommend that go check that out before we do
a commentary. It'll be fun to listen to a commentary
while we do it. That filmmaker went on to make
another Australian horror film nearly a decade after the fact,
maybe even a little bit more, which was called Late
Night with the Devil, which starred David Deshmuckian. I would
(07:17):
recommend both of those films, but I prefer La Mungo
over Late Night with the Devil. So those are two
Australian horror films that I would highly recommend. Obviously, everyone
is going to recommend Wolf Creek. I think that is
a little bit of a cliche at this point to
keep recommending Wolf Creek. But I would say Wolf Creek
one is great Australian film, will always be a great
(07:41):
Australian film. The second one is campy as fuck if
you enjoy campy as fuck horror.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Films, and not the tenth kind of campy.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
No, it's just it's yeah, it's a little bit cartoony.
I think a little bit silly. The TV series is
Fucking Anything by the Philippel brothers as well, so.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
The crazy crazy idiots here.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, Bring Her Back is a very very hard movie
to watch. A friend of mine who watches a lot
of horror films, Josh, recently watched it. Asked me how
I got through it said, quite difficult. It's a difficult
film to watch, but it's a brilliant film. And there
are the Australian film Talk to me. There's another great
(08:29):
vampire film called Daybreakers, which stars Sam Neil.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
And remembering that one, yep.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
William Dafoe. That's a bit of fun. So yeah, there
are a lot of Australian films out there. There's the
Wormwood series as well, Wormwood at w I M would
there's one and two. I think they're seen on Netflix
at the moment.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
They're all right, they're a movie. They're in Australia, all right.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
There was that era where you could make a cheap
little Australian horror film film very very quickly, and there
were a couple of them got pumped out.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
To be fair, there's been a couple of those erarors.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
I mean, I have one called Undead. It's been a
while since we watched it, Holly. I have it on
the Umbrella series, The Beyond film so Beyond Genre Blu
Ray series. And if you recall, it's a zombie movie
for most of it, and then at the end, like
two aliens rock up and they cure everyone with the
(09:27):
magic water. Yeah, I remember, remember that, And the alien
turns around to the.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Other one like, why are you naked? Don't judge me, brother?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So yeah, lots of Australian films out there to enjoy
during your Halloween. There's also a subgenre of horror called
Samara Weaving Covered in Blood.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Actually a good genre to go investigate.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Actually I work with her uncle at the camera times,
samaraw Weav sorry no smarther Waving's father sorry, Keego Eaven's brother.
So I would recommend pretty much anything she's been in.
She's been in a couple of horror horror comedies, ready
or not. It was ready or not. That was the
Hide and sequence.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm thinking of.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yet there's the one, the post apocalyptic one, the Devil
something I can't remember. That was all right, That was
pretty good. So yeah, lots of good horror films. Anything
by John Carpenter is worth watching. Though that being said,
to watch the Fog yesterday, I wasn't particularly impressed. I
actually think that might be one of his weakest. Going
(10:37):
back and watching the first Halloween is a fun one.
People have like a lot of different viewing orders for
Halloween films. With Michael Myers, my suggestion would be watching
the original with John Carpenter, watch Halloween whoy twenty I
want to say, maybe a bit earlier, maybe twenty eighteen twenty,
(11:01):
so skip its sequel, and then watch Halloween Ends. That
would be my Halloween trilogy.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So it was Halloween Ends is twenty twenty two, which
means that Halloween itself is.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Twenty eighteen, twenty twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
There was one in the middle, yeah, the one in
the middle was twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, so I would go John Carpenter's original, right, Halloween
twenty eighteen, and then Halloween Ends, Right, that's the Map trilogy, right.
Or you can go Halloween one, Halloween two, Halloween h
two O. Or you can go Rob Zombies Halloween one
(11:43):
and Halloween two.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Or this is Halloween one, Halloween Star Wars order right.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
You can go Halloween one, Halloween two, not Halloween three,
Halloween four, Halloween five, Halloween six, Halloween seven.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Actually like either Jason or Nightmare. I don't know which
one this is like.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Actually, Or you could go Halloween one, Halloween two, Halloween
h two, a Halloween Resurrection if you.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Want, You're right, it was twenty eighteen.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
It was Tray eighteen.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yes, Jamie Lee Curtis has been killed multiple times in
different reboots of the series.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Did you know that that means she's just as immortal
as Michael Myers and the two are stuck in a
time loop in hell.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
There is Halloween Multiverse because of all those films that.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Have been made, and if they're in a time loop
in hell, that is Mike Cannon.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Six as well.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Scream, the very first screen film, which was one of
the first meta movies that we ever got, and a commentary.
I am still to this day a massive fan of
the Exorcist. If you want an interesting cult film, The
Exorcist three, skip Exorcist two and all the other Exorcist movies.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
If you want to play reference trivia, watch the Scary Movie.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, the parody of the parody, screen being the parody
of horror films, and then that being the parody of
the parody. And then of course you got all the classics.
Nightmare on Elm Street, the first one, maybe the third
one in New Nightmare again another meta film. Yeah, and Jaws.
I recently got to I watched Jaws. They did a
(13:21):
four K theatrical presentation at the Imax here in Camera
and I went and saw that, which was just fantastic, Like,
I love the shit out of that film. It built
in me this love of sharks, that film, which is
weird for people.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I know it's weird for you, Hollywooden I say that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Matthew kind of wants me to do an episode on
it because the Great White film was taken by an
Australian Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
The actual shark footage, and there's not a huge amount
of it, and I'm not talking about the puppet, talking
about the actual shark. There's not a huge amount of it.
But that was actually filmed by marine biologist off the
coast of Queensland. He would later go on to distance
himself from the film because it basically created this fear
(14:06):
towards sharks where people are more inclined to kill them,
especially after they, you know, there's any sort of Great
white shark attack. It's definitely worth just talking about his
career research that he did around the field of sharks
and then later obviously the controversy around Jaws. So yeah,
(14:26):
there is a little bit of Australian in a little
bit of Australian film footage in Jaws as well.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
We are very subtly in all cinema.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, absolutely, all right, Holly enough with the Halloween stuff.
People are desperate for me to shut up as I've
done a PSA on animal adoption and talked about Halloween
films I like, So probably time to get into the
actual episode. This is episode three hundred and eighty two,
Part two of Lawyer X.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Inside Victoria. Police opinions on the use of Lawyer X's
testimony clashed. Some officers insisted that using a lawyer as
an informer was a line that should never have been crossed,
that it would damage their relationship with their own sources. Others,
particularly those involved in Task Force Purana, argued that the
intelligence was too valuable to lose and that the ends
(15:16):
justified the means. Each fresh Gangland murder raised pressure to
deliver results, and in the pursuit of convictions, the police
placed a premium on short term advantage, ignoring any long
term consequences that their actions could bring to themselves, their witnesses,
or their legal process.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I mean, after Marine was killed in front of his children,
that sort of you know, that was the tipping point.
I mean, there was there was stuff leading to that,
of course, but you know, it begins with the Russell
Street bombings. Wall Street makes it worse. It's the feud
between the police and the Gating sort of escalate, but
(15:56):
it's contained to them. But then when it becomes so
blatant that the people are being executed in front of
their children at three o'clock on a weekday.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Afternoon, Saturday Saturday morning.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
The escalation has got an extreme and I think at
that point, you know, there is this Hugetorian police that
are either corrupt or summarily executing people that they believe
(16:32):
are cop killers, and that element is pulling everyone else
into it. So you know, I think there's desperation externally,
there's external pressures. Obviously the government at the time was
not happy with Ganglan killings. There's public pressure, you know,
father's been executed in front of their children at sports games.
(16:53):
And then there's this internal pressure of you've you know,
you've got on one side, you've got corruption, and then
on the other side you've got this unshare esque mentality
by bad cops. So you know, you could say that
it's a there is a lot of pressure on certain
police officers to utilize this bad source. Not saying it's justified,
(17:16):
but you can understand why they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Lawyer X herself appeared to both drive and power in
her role. She was, by turns anxious and reckless, sometimes
begging handless for protection, sometimes volunteering startlingly detailed intelligence. At
one point, she offered to wear a wire to work,
proposing to record conversations with her own clients.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Mockbell now says that Lawyer X, the lawyer ratting him out,
police advised him to fuck off overseas, so he did.
In favor of Mockbell's version of events is an unlikely source.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
ROBERTA.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Williams it told Downsey and Kralin in twenty eighteen that
Lawyer X told her husband Carl to leave the country
soon before he was imprisoned. In two thousand and four,
both Williams and Mockbell independently claimed years apart the Lawyer
X told them to disappear. It's hard to know if
their declarations are accurate. Getting Williams of Mockbell out of
(18:15):
her life by advising them to escape would have offered
Lawyer X reprieves from her day to day turmoils. The
idea would support notions of her reckless sense of empowerment.
Then again, the claim seemed to suffer from an unlikely
lack of strategy on her part. Quote from Lawyer X,
Downsley and Kralin, HarperCollins, twenty twenty, page one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
By the late two thousands, the arrangement the police had
negotiated with Lawyer X was freeing other lawyers had begun
to suspect irregularities as clues to the identity of the mole.
Prosecutors sometimes appeared to anticipate their targets and defense strategy
with uncanny accuracy. Documents surfaced in discovery that suggested insider
(18:58):
access documents there was no way the police should have
been able to access.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
At the time. Though others received most of the blame,
lawyers are a grade. Wilson was soon accused of tipping
off Mockbell about the Michael Marshall and Las Marine murder charges,
gabing Mockbell's solicitor presented as an easy mark but no guard.
Wilson would later tell Downsey in Kralin a decade later
she did not tip off Tony Mockbell from Lawyer X
(19:25):
Dowseley in Kralon HarperCollins twenty twenty age one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Convicted criminals and their lawyers began to question their relationships
and whether their trials had been compromised by the state's
use of these duplicitous informants. Appeals and inquiries mounted against
convictions began to open, causing a spike in the legal system,
a system that was not necessarily trusted by those under
its wing anymore. But it wasn't all sunshine and roses
(19:53):
for Lawyer X. There was great danger. With members of
the criminal underworld now actively hunting the leak, there was
only a of time before the truth came out.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
The exposure of her long term relationship with Victorian police
as a human source, the possibility of an OPI or
government review into the legal and ethical implications of having
used a serving barrister as a human source, and the
potential for prosecutions on foot to be jeopardized. Quote from
the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants, Final Report,
(20:23):
Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, page two sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Lawyer X had to start playing at smarter, but she
had never really been one to dip below the radar.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
We mentioned this last episode.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Even at university, when she stood up in front of
her class declared herself an informaniac and then walked out.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
There's some interesting things when we look at Lawyer X.
Now again, I want to put this forward. Make sure
I'm being very very clear here. I do not, nor
will I ever have the ability to diagnose someone with
mental illness unless I do a psychology degree. So I
(21:07):
want to make that very clear before we continue.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
There is.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Elements of risk taking behavior that Lawyer ex exhibits that
you could use as evidence for mental illness. Many episodes,
depressive episodes, extreme risk taking, a secret keeping deception, manipulation,
(21:40):
you know, that double role between the police and the
underworld clients. Holly, she did report and was later diagnosed
with PTSD, which doesn't surprise me. There has been suggestion
that she is suffering from something along the lines of
(22:03):
bipolar However, no formal diagnosis has ever been delivered for her.
But this is not an example of someone who is
acting within a healthy mental range. If that makes sense,
it does, and that goes while police are not expected
(22:30):
to be on hand psychologists, while they're not suspecting, you know,
they're not expected to be counselors or mental health care workers.
I think it's fair to say that, and this one,
this is probably really important. I think it's fair to
(22:53):
say that they are trained in recognizing the signs of
erratic behavior in At no point did anyone around her
think that this was a bit strange, or if they did,
they dismissed it because they were getting convictions. And we've
talked about the ethical side of that in the last episode,
(23:15):
so we're not going to rehash that. But talking about
a human to human element here, police should have known better,
They should have known something was up. You would have
had to really really look the other way to ignore
all these signs.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The most basic point is why the fuck would a
defense lawyer be working with them, yes.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
And why would they be working with them in this capacity?
And the prosecutors, who like they would have had to
have known more than they say they did. The fact
that they were willing to run these trials with this
witness is just astounding to me. I'm shock no one
(23:58):
lost their.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
License, considering there was like a ninety chance that every
single one of these convictions was going to be overturned
because her position. Maybe they thought that they'd get them
into the jail and then they'd be killed off and
then it wouldn't come back to bite them on the
ass later.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Thank you for once again doing that classic holy thing
that you do. No, Holly, I don't. I don't think
that the proved it. I don't think that prosecuting lawyers
in Victoria thought that they could feed all of these
clients into a meat grinder so that they would be
(24:35):
killed in prison and that would happen quick enough so
that that wouldn't overturn their conviction should lawyer Ex's identity
be established. No, Holly, I don't think that's very plausible.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I think the fact that disproving my wildest theories, I.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Need more imagination.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Huh No, I think you have fun.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Disprove I do have a little bit of fun. I'm
pointing out that you're extremes yes, looking for the perfect
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Speaker 3 (25:57):
Now back to.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
The show, r X would just have to endure this attention.
By twenty fourteen, Victoria Police had, under court pressure, acknowledged
that they used a barrister as an informant, but they
fought the courts to keep her identity secret. Media outlets
pressed to find the informant's identity, but suppression orders block publication, which.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Doesn't surprise me. I think the judiciary was probably shitting
their pants.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
It was a vested interest in keeping her her identity
quiet from a lot of angles.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, Police and Victoria spent four point five too million
in legal costs attempting to prevent the release of information
about the use of a gangland lawyer as an informant.
Suppression orders preventing the publication of information about what has
become known as the Lawyer X or in Former three
eight three eight case was lifted by the High Court
on Monday, following a two year legal battle. Police and
(26:54):
the woman known as Lawyer X were attempting to block
Commonwealth and state prosecutors from releasing information about her role
as an informer on her gangland clients, several of whom
were convicted after she gave confidential information about them or
their associates to police. Quote from Victorian policeman four point
five to million on legal cost to protect lawyer excess
(27:14):
safety callor wealth quist The Guardian, Sunday, ninth of December
twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
The crucial turning point in the informance case came in
the High Court of Australia in twenty eighteen. Abvers CD,
EF VERCD.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The representing lawyers in that case was Cookie Monster, the
Count as well as Big Bird who buy the witness Elma. Yes,
all of those individuals have a lot of experience with
ABCND and I believe that they had to take on
(27:53):
a few extra city courses to be able to make
determinations around.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
EF and CD as well.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Now, I believe that was that was sponsored by the
color Purple as well, and in.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Order to make their findings, I had to look through
the diamond window today.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You just mixed it up. You mixed it up at
the end of Sesame Street. At the end of Sesame Street.
It was also like brought to you by the number
one and the color of this and then you made
a play School reference.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's been a very long time. I don't remember anything
about Sesame Street, and I barely remember anything about Play
School since we recorded that episode. The case was heard
under pseudonyms, but it was clear the argument was fought.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
No how long it takes me like to, you know,
to make smooth improvisations like that, and then all it
takes is one Holly, one Holly.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Let me just stick that that spike in those Spokeshllet.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Yeah, make a big joke about Sesame Street. Then she's
like and play school. I'm harwy.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Could the state withhold the identity of an informer when
doing so risk concealing miscarriages of justice? Was it acceptable
that prosecutions proceed while the defense was compromised by said prosecution?
The High Court made a unanimous decision that to prosecute
while the client's lawyer, whether representing during the trial or not,
(29:24):
was working for the other side, was a miscarriage of justice.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I mean it is. You just can't see it from
any other perspective. It is a breach of ethics that.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
The presumption of lawyer client privileges would allow the lawyer
to access more inside knowledge than the average observer, and
to use that position was to mark aus stain on
the whole institution, as well as compromise the cases that
the lawyer is involved.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
In the lifting of the court orders allowed prosecutors to
write twenty two people on Monday informing them that they
may have grounds to launch an appeal underwell figures. Tony Mockbell,
Robed Currum and the family of Carl Williams, who was
murdered in prison while serving life sentence for murder, are
reportedly considering appeals. The High Court described it as an
atrocious and reprehensible case of police misconduct and an appalling
(30:09):
breach of lawyer access duty to both her clients and
to the court. It prompted the Victorian government to call
a Royal commission to examine how many criminal convictions, including
those of some of the most high profile figures of
Melbourne's Ganglian wars, and how they may be affected. Quote
from Victorian police spent four point five to two million
on legal costs.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
In their judgment, the justices described the lawyer's conduct as
appalling and declared that police, by encouraging and benefiting from it,
had corrupted the criminal justice system. The Court held that
the public interest in disclosure far outweighed the usual protection
of informers, and that affected convictions had to be revisited.
(30:53):
The High Court ruling was seismic It demolished years of
suppression orders and opened the way for media public head.
The media blackout that had protected Lawyer X was lifted,
and her identity soon became public knowledge. This decision affected
hundreds of cases, possibly more, as investigations into the use
of informants in Victorian policing opened their books to begin.
(31:18):
In December twenty eighteen, mere days after the High Court's decision,
newspapers splashed the identity of the mole across their front pages.
The mysterious Lawyer X, long hinted at in legal circles
and whispered about in the press, was not a gangster
or a corrupt official, but a criminal defense barrister who
had betrayed her very dangerous and powerful clients while acting
(31:40):
as a police source.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
For anyone with even a vague interest in Melbourne's gangland wars.
The true identity of in former three eight three eight
a Lawyer X was arguably the worst kept secret in Melbourne.
A quick Internet search would reveal it, a fact Miss
Gobbo herself was accurately aware of, and that was also
a very unfortunate last night as well for a lot
of stand up comedians took a lot of luxury with it.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I will admit reading the book every time I saw
her name, for like the first two chapters.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I'm like, if you're not aware, maybe this is not
current vernacular anymore, but definitely when Holly and I were
growing up, to get a gobbo blow job with a
euphemism for oral sex, I was going to go like
a highbrow with it.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Nah, Holly, you got a qualify it.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Qualifying it. Yeah, that's a that's the word for it.
That's a verb.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
A Google search of my name is quite literally sickening,
let alone googling loyal Lawyer X scandal. Miss Goobo wrote
an a twenty fifteen letter to police. There isn't anyone
in Victoria who doesn't know who Lawyer X is. Quote
from Lawyer X identified Sarah Farnsworth, ABC News, Friday, the
first March twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
The shock was immense across wider society, not only for
the legal and criminal community, both for the wider public.
Many of the convicted men were despised underworld figures, but
the principle at stake was larger than any individual well.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
It affected.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
People's trust that the criminal justice system in Victoria, at
the very least was functioning as it was intended to function,
and regardless of how we feel about criminals and what
they say and do, this has to remain a steadfast
part of our criminal justice system. You are entitled to
(33:33):
a good defense. It's so so important because not every
single person who employs a defense lawyer has committed the crime,
and so a good defense is also very, very important.
(33:54):
Otherwise you might as well throw it all out. And
the fact that someone's defense lawyer was acting against their
intro rus and going against the ethics and privileged information
and providing it back to the police, and the police
were happy to do it, and the prosecutors were happy
to use that evidence. Again, I still, I still don't
understand how those prosecutors did not shut that that shit
(34:17):
down unless they were completely kept in the dark, and
I just don't believe they were. I'm surprised lawyers didn't
lose their licenses over this.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
I believe that prosecutors are given the name of informers,
they're just not allowed to publicize it or say it
in court.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Well, if they knew that name, then they should have
known fucking matter. I honestly think it should have gone
further than just the inquest. I think prosecutors should have been,
you know, disbarred for using that witness knowing what they
were doing.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Look, pops don't care about the war.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
The closing sprape, right like they know so they know
the fundamentals or they have a reasonable understanding. But they're
not lawyers either, right, they would have probably seen it
from this perspective. Here's a lawyer, he's acting as a witness.
(35:18):
She's providing this information. We can use that information. It's
up to the prosecutors to turn around and say we
can't use this, like, stop utilizing this witness. We can't
use this witness. And if this witness, if it comes
out who they are, it could completely dismantle the Victorian
(35:38):
criminal justice system, or at least the faith in it
from the public's perspective. So we can't do this. So
I give the police a little bit of leeway. They're
under immense pressure from the public, immense pressure from the government,
and as far as they're concerned, this is a witness
who is willingly providing information. They're not lawyers. We don't
(35:59):
expect police to be lawyers, which is why there are
lawyers employed. When you have to prosecute police for misconduct, right,
the prosecutors don't get to have that like, they don't
get that escape route. They don't get to turn around
and say, well, you know, we're just here to get
the prosecution.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
No you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
You're also there to make sure that you comply with
the ethics. And again I'm shocked that the prosecutors won't Disbard.
I'd love to know what those conversations were like, because
I imagine some of those prosecutors were brought in before
the judges who looked over this case, and the people
looking over the Royal Commission, which would have been the
Victorian government, who turned around and said to them, what
(36:40):
were you thinking? Like, you know, if you had the
name of those prosecutors, you would never ever hire them
as a personal lawyer.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I'd tell you that much.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No way in hell.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
If they can't understand the basic ethics of their industry,
then they shouldn't be practicing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
If a lawyer could so casually break privilege collaborate with police,
that no client, guilty or innocent, could trust their counsel.
This demolished a long standing assumed pillar of the legal
system and threatened impartiality that held the system up itself.
But just who was this lawyer who was willing to
(37:17):
throw away her career, possibly her life, for the cause.
Nicola Gobo was born in nineteen seventy two into a
prominent Melbourne family deep pies to the legal world. Her uncle,
Sir James Gobo, went on to become Governor of Victoria
in nineteen ninety seven to two thousand, and her family
name carried significant weight in legal and civic circles. Gobo
(37:42):
studied law at the University of Melbourne, where she quickly
distinguished herself as ambitious and academically sharp. From the outset
of her career, she was drawn to criminal law, which
inevitably placed her in close contact with Melbourne's growing underworld.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Gobo was openly ambitious and thrilled by the variety of
criminals cases Diamond dished out. Each day, she woke up
wondering who she would meet and where.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
She would go.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
She was exposed to police briefs of evidence against her
clients for the first time. She prided herself on exposing
the flaws of logic and the underlying faults of the
police investigation. She learned the difference between thorough and sloppy
police puff.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
There are some puns that I.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Could make using the kind of language most would not
expect to hear in the man.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
You're gonna have to read this quote again because you'll
laughing too much.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
This is this is not fair. He learned the difference
between thorough and sloppy police work using the kind of
language most would not expect to hear in the mouth
of a solicitor. She called the officers responsible, liars and pocksuckers.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
If she was getting to know lawyers and cops, she
was getting to know Diamonds criminal clients too. Tony Mackbell
sweet talked female staff at Diamond's office and presented them
with gift cards one Christmas. The beginnings of their association
as lawyer and client were more vexed. She accompanied Tony
Mackbell to court as a junior solicitor for a balu
surety for his brother Haughty. He stated that he solely
(39:12):
owned a property which he did not. He was charged
with perjury and Gobbo was called as a witness for
the failed case against him. It was the start of
a long and often fraught relationship. Quote from lawyer ex
Dowzy and Crazlin, page twenty eight to twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
By the late nineteen nineties and early two thousands, she
was representing some of the most notorious figures in the
city's gangland wars, gaining a reputation for boldness in court
and for cultivating unusually close relationships with her client Some
of her more dangerous clients included the Morans and the Mockbells,
the Barbaros, Ghaddo and Carl Williams, all the biggest names
(39:52):
in Melbourne's underworld. Her work blurred the line between professional
advocacy and personal involvement. Gobo frequently socialized with the very
clients she represented, including members of the Carlton Crew and
other underworld groups, which gave her unparalleled insight into organized
crime operations in Victoria. Yet this closeness undermined the professional
(40:16):
distance the legal ethics required. At the same time, she
was struggling with health problems. In the late nineteen nineties,
she suffered a serious illness that left her weakened, an
issue that police later acknowledged made her more vulnerable to pressure.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
And of course, mental illness.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
This combination of proximity to clients and personal fragility positioned
her uniquely for recruitment as a police informer.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Previously, most human sources were recruited after they had committed
criminal offenses. From facing a prison sentence, police and persuaded
them to cooperate by appealing to the self interest and
a reduced sentence. The SEU, however, was keen to recruit
a different type of human source. Mister Whitt considered that
Miss Gobbo, a criminal lawyer who socialized with her clients
and play police, could meet the esdu's needs to combat
(41:02):
the gangland wars. He also thought that her stroke might
make her vulnerable and more susceptible to recruitment. In August
two thousand and four, the MDD created a profile on
Miss Gobbo's Meanwhile, Miss Gobbo's relationship with mister Bateson became closer.
On the twenty third of March two thousand and five,
she find to thank him for ensuring her that her
(41:22):
name was not mentioned during mister Thomas's committal hearing. On
the nineteenth of May two thousand and five, she told
mister Bateson that she had information of interest. They met
on the twenty third of May two thousand and five,
the first occasion in which she provided him information they
kind expected from a human source. It concerned mister Carl Williams,
Mister George Williams, mister Tony Mockbell and mister Mockbell Solicitor
(41:46):
Solicitor two a pseudonym. It was the first of several
such meetings between June and August two thousand and five.
Quote from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Police attention fell on ung Gobbo as early as nineteen
ninety five, when her home was raided during investigation into
drug activity. Although she was not convicted, the incident put
her on Victoria Police as radar. In the early two thousands,
she was formally registered as a human source code named
Informers three eight three eight, and began passing on confidential
(42:20):
information about her clients. Over the years, she became one
of the most prolific informants in the state's history, with
her intelligence feeding directly into investigations of drug trafficking, organized crime,
and even police corruption. Testimony was central in pieces such
(42:41):
as that against former detective Paul Dale, who was linked
to the murders of police informer Terence Hodson and his wife.
At the same time, she continued to appear as a
barrister for many of the individuals she was informing on,
creating an irreconcilable conflict of interest.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
In his evidence to the Commission, mister Dale said of
his relationship with Miss Gobo that there was a crossover
of professional and personal. He explained, and a mob of
those occasions where we met either as a result of
either eye contacting her or however it happened as went
from speaking at a cafe, bar, whatever, over lunch, dinner,
whatever happens to be too many drinks and a lot
(43:20):
of things were said. She certainly told me a lot
of things that you wouldn't expect her to tell about
her clients. He said that Miss Gobo was at times
his legal adviser and they had conversations that he considered
were legally privileged. Quote from the Royal Commission into the
Management of Police Informants.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Again we cover this last episode, but I do want
to reiterate you are protected through privilege for the crime
that you're being defended against. But if you talk about
or two or around your lawyer a different crime, they
illegally obligated to call the police. It is not a
(44:00):
complete catual.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Yeah, absolutely right. So if you're talking to your defense lawyer.
Let's say you have been pined for stealing. Let's say
you've broken into a store stolen some jewelry. Anything regarding
that case is considered privilege. But if you then turn
around and say, well, you know, in nineteen ninety nine,
I was also involved in a stick up robbery where
(44:24):
someone was killed. The person that was killed was this person.
I feel very bad about it. Their lawyer is then
required to report on you.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
So just be careful what you say to your word.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
And look, it's the same with counselors. Believe it is
the same with psychologists as.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Well, and doctor's healthcare profess.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Doctor's healthcare professionals, you are entitled to client privilege. Let's say,
for example, Holly is my client and she says to me,
you know, when I was a younger person, I went
to a circus clown the heart attack on stage, and
so I've always been afraid of public spaces and clowns.
(45:06):
Right if then I went and said to my friend, oh,
how silly is it that this client, holy soul, is
scared of clowns because one died in front of her
when she was young. They have broken confidentiality. However, if
Holly turned around and said, I don't like clowns because
(45:27):
when I was younger, a clown scared me at the circus.
So I've routinely been shooting clowns in the head, and
I'm going to keep doing this because the circus is
in town. I'm going to shoot another clown tonight. I
am then required to break my client confidentiality with Polly
because she is either threatening harm to herself or harm
to others, or as willing to commit an illegal act. Now,
(45:50):
within the counseling framework, you also have supervisors that you
are meant to approach who have more experience than you,
so that you can confirm that confidentiality is ready to
be broken. In the case of someone being hurt or
the client hurting themselves, you can break that confidentiality right away.
Now a caveat to this is client information can be
(46:15):
subpoened by a port and so that privilege changes yet again.
So it's very very important to remember what client and
lawyer confidentiality covers, and it also has a much more
narrower framework than you would expect. Just like healthcare professionals,
(46:41):
I really like legal and ethics as part of my studies.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
That's why I figured I'd give you a chance to
say it again.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
I should have probably been a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Because of all these irregularities in process and relationship, the
corruption of the informer system, a reckoning had to happen,
and it was called. As soon as Lawyer X's identity
was publicized.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
On the thirteenth thirty seven, twenty eighteen, her Her Excellency,
the Honorable Linda Dasiaux AC signed letters Peyton appointing the
Honorable Margaret murdo AC as Commissioner of the Royal Commission
into the Management of Police Informants. At ten am on
the thirtieth November twenty twenty, Commissioner McMurdo delivered her final
(47:23):
report in recommendations to the Governor of Victoria, thereby completing
the Commission's work. The Commission's final report is over one
thousand pages long and made up of four volumes plus
a summary with recommendations. Royal Commission into the Management of
Police Informances Website, eighteenth May twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
The Royal Commission began in earnest in twenty nineteen, taking
evidence from police officers, lawyers, clients and experts. The Commission's
purpose was to measure the scale of the problem when
it came to the use and abuse of police informants,
determine how this corruption of the system had been allowed
to occur, and recommend reforms to prevent it happening in
the future. It's findings we're damning.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
And that's ladies and gentlemen. Is where we're going to
pick it up next week. So we are going to
go to a part three. Holy, yay, yay.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
More lawyer X Holly, we'll find some more stories put
in here for you.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
Yes, yes, where we'll have to beef up part three,
but I do think that is a good place leave it.
Just before we let you go, don't forget there is
a little bit of housekeeping. If you would like to
get in touch with us, you can find us on
your social media of choice. Just type in weird Crap
in Australia into the search bar. Predominantly most people communicate
through Facebook, but we are active quote unquote on all
(48:41):
other social media platforms except for X. You can also
get in touch with us with a good old fashioned email,
which is how a lot of people get in touch
with us.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
We quite enjoy those emails.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
Especially Andrew, who actually sent us some message, a very
long message this week.
Speaker 1 (48:56):
Yes with a recommendation for some subject, which is very cool.
We always like those as well. To do what Andrew did,
just send us an email through to Weak Crap in
Australia at gmail dot com. If you would like to
support the show, you can find us on Patreon. For
only five dollars USD a month, you get access to
our bonus minisodes as well as these episodes released early
(49:18):
and uncut when at free. You can also grab a
Week Crap In Australia T shirt and other merchandise from
our Teapublic and Red Bubble stores. Just like social media,
you just type in weirk crap and Australia into their
search engines you'll see all our wonderful designs and last
but not least, a book, Volume six, the Week Crap
In Australia series is available from our great mates at
impact coomics dot com dot au. I think they may
(49:40):
still have a few signed copies left, but those stock
That stock is running out quick, so make sure you
get in for that. Volume one to five are al
so available. They do make wonderful Christmas presents as well.
For that history buff in your life, or that person
who enjoys true crime or aliens or just weird stories
in general. There's a lot of work that goes into
(50:01):
those books. It is a little bit different from the podcast.
While we do reutilize the information from the scripts, they're
presented in a more sort of condensed anthology sort of
style of books.
Speaker 3 (50:15):
So they are a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
And they're also updated as new things happen.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Volume one is up to version three already.
Speaker 3 (50:21):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
There's also correspondence in the back as well as some
photos from evidence related to different cases.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
Nothing to gory.
Speaker 2 (50:30):
Transcripts of interviews is also in volume six yep.
Speaker 1 (50:33):
So there's lots of really good fun stuff in volumes
one to six there, so I few with like We're
Crapping and Collectible in your Life, I would highly recommend
our book series, Still Independent and Proud. You can also
pick up the kindle edition from the Amazon Kindle Store
and if you're living overseas Lulu dot com. As you
(50:54):
covered here locally, you want to pick that up from
Impact Comics dot com dot Au And is our tradition
here at wee Crap in Australia, we give Polly the
final words. Do you know why we start? Actually, just quickly,
do you know why we had to start that? No,
you don't remember. I was thinking about this the other day.
We had to start that because I would finish up
(51:17):
an episode. This was way back in the early days,
and you would say something again, and we just kept
going back and forth. It became like a tug of
rope with Polly to the point where I was like,
you know what, I just need to give her the
end so that we've signaled that it's the end and
then I can wrap up the podcast. So Holly, in
(51:38):
honor of that tradition, of course, we give you the
final words.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
Some of the cases that Lawyer X's little informing Adventure
ended up impacting include those against Tony Mockbell, Simon Overland,
Paul Dale, Rob Kerrahm, jan Visa, Zalty Keveski, Pascual Babaro,
and Francesco Mdaffrey. So there are some very big members
(52:05):
of the gangland who her involvement has now suscrewed the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
There's a lot of stuff that's going to be unfolding
over the next coup of years because of the revelations.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
I'd say it's going to take at least a decade.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
And let's a little teaser for the next episode. We'll
get you straight into it for the next one. Thank
you so much for joining us. As I always say,
please be safe, be kind to each other, especially at
the moment. We'll see you well next week for more
Weird Crap in Australia. Till then bye for now. They
(52:49):
The Weird Crap in Australia podcast is produced by Holly
and Matthew Soul for the Modern Meltdown.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review on
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