October 12, 2025 • 57 mins
Few scandals have shaken Australia’s justice system like the Lawyer X affair. At the center was a prominent barrister who secretly worked as a police informant, all while representing some of the country’s most notorious criminals. Her name was tied to dozens of figures on both sides of the law, leaving behind a trail of questions about loyalty, ethics, and justice.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
By living a double life, she jeopardised the very foundation of the courts. Convictions were thrown into doubt, appeals were launched, and the credibility of the entire legal system was called into question. The scandal not only exposed corruption and desperation in law enforcement, but also highlighted the dangers of blurred boundaries between lawyers and their clients.
In this series, we dig into how one lawyer’s choices spiraled into one of the biggest legal crises in Australian history. From the underworld connections to the Royal Commission, we explore how the Lawyer X scandal redefined trust, justice, and the rule of law in Victoria.
***
Linked Episodes:
- 309-312 - L'Onorata Societa, the Calabrian Mafia
- 188 & 189 - The Death of the Vampire Gigolo
- 351-358 - The Gangland Wars
- 76 & 77 - The Walsh St Shooting
- 61 & 62 - Old Melbourne Gaol
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/weird-crap-in-australia--2968350/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
They were last seen on the beach with the tall
man and that's the best description police have ever had
of it. More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared
into raging surf at Chevy A Beach, his widow has
finally revealed his last romantic words docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the Yowie. It's time for the Weird Crap
In Australia podcast. Welcome to the week Crap In Australia Podcast.
(00:46):
I'm your host Matthew sol Joining me for another episode
is Holy Soul, Hellaire. This is episode at three hundred
and eighty three deconclusion to Lawyer X. And we've had
a little bit of news around the studio.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Haven't we, Holly, Yes, we have a new hire.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You can you don't need me to continue to prompt
for your facade and just keep going go for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we got a little twelve year old twelve week
old kitten. Her name is Harley, she is it.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Is cute.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I'm pretty sure that would have just got pat off
by the editing.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. No, we got another little rescue cat. As you
all know, we unfortunately had to put Talia to sleep.
She was very sad and we gave it some time.
Let's let things heal a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And I looked at her desexing certificate. She was born
the week before we put Tarley down to Yeah, she
was born the six we put Tally down on the thirteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's an odd coincidence, isn't it. There is, of course
no timeline for griefing. Ladies and John. If you go
out and get another pet right away, or you wait,
or you do whatever you need to do, it's definitely
up to you. But we thought, well, enough time has
passed and a little opportunity came up to adopt a kitten,
so we headed down to Aubrey. My mother's down there
(02:17):
and she picked her up for us. And yeah, we
went picked her up yesterday and Joker is doing very
very well. It's always interesting to see how an older
cat will gauge the reaction. When we got Talia, sorry,
when we got Joker Talia was not impressed with this
tiny little flute ball running around kissing at her and
(02:40):
the opposite.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But he couldn't quite get the noise out, puff of air.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
He's sort of puffed up, you know. So, yeah, we've
got this new little kitten running around and Joker seems
being on with her. Fine. So yeah, And speaking of
YouTube channel, of course, before anyone gets too excited, we
haven't posted, we haven't created content for it. It's a
(03:08):
lot of remastering of the older episodes, Hollies working with
a design team to build some cool thumbnails, some animations.
I guarantee you have not heard these episodes like this before.
There's a lot more clarity, they've been equalized.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I've removed references to the modern meltdown dot net because
that no longer exists. A lot of meltdown handles we
use them, so it's all just streamlined, we'll call it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, But this is a little passion project of Holly's
to take the podcast to the YouTube channel, and we're
going to be putting content out there, and you never know,
we might do some video stuff as well down the line.
All right, ladies and gentlemen, it is the conclusion to
the channel that is Lawyer X, and I think we
can easily title this episode rap percussions. Take it away, Holly, Well, actually, no,
(04:00):
take it away, Holly, take it away, Matthew, as we
start the episode with a quote. The Commission held one
hundred and twenty nine days of public and private hearings
and heard from eighty two witnesses. In hearings held between
February twenty nineteen and February twenty twenty, the Commission examined
issues related to cases potentially affected by the use of
Miss Gobbo as a human source and the related conduct
(04:22):
of Victorian police officers terms of reference one in two.
In May twenty twenty, the Commission held hearings to examine
policy and practices issues related to the use of human
sources and human source information terms of reference three and four.
Quote from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police
Informants Final Report, Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, age fourteen.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
The number of cases potentially affected by the Lawyer X
scandal counted in the hundreds, dozens at least clearly compromised.
Not all of this was because of Lawyer X, but
she was responsible for a good number of them. The
commission confirmed that Lawyer X had provided thousands of intelligence reports,
many based on privileged information that should have been protected
(05:10):
by the ethics of client confidentiality. It noted that internal
police warnings about the dangers had been ignored or overridden
in their search for a golden bullet to stop the
gangland wars.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I mean, that doesn't surprise me that there were internal warnings,
do not do this, do not do this. But I
think I made it quite clear in the previous episode
that I thought the prosecutors should have known better themselves.
They would have had a full brief on who their
witnesses were and where the sources were coming from. And
I think they should have been the last bashi, you know,
that last the quality control line that turned around and said,
(05:45):
you know, we will not we will not go further
with this. But well, we all know how it turns out,
don't we. They obviously did go further with it, and
you ended up in this situation. But it does not
surprise me that people within the police force were like,
don't know if we should use this momboyos.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
The commission also found that senior officers failed to balance
the lure of easy intelligence against their duty to preserve
the integrity of the justice system.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Victoria Police concedes that more than one hundred police officers
and personnel knew that Miscobo was a human source between
two thousand and five and two thousand and nine. It
appears that none of these officers or personnel reported it
to all raised concerns with Victoria Police's than ethical standards
department or with an external oversight body. Several officers who
gave evidence to the Commission stressed that at the time
(06:36):
of Miscobo's use as a human source, Victoria Police was
under significant pressure to stem the violence associated with Melbourn's
gangland wars. Some suggested that there was nothing unlawful or
improper about their management of Miscobo and the associated risks.
In late August twenty twenty, Victorian Police provided a submission
to the Commission in which it accepted without reservation that
(06:58):
the way in which mis Gobo was managed as a
human source in a way that resulted in a profound
interference with the relationship between lawyer and client was a
major failing. The consequences of that failing are resonating through
the criminal justice system and will do so for many years.
It has come at a very high cost to the organization,
to public confidence and to the criminal justice system. Our
(07:21):
quote is from the Royal Commission into the Management of
Police Informant's fund Or Report twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The Commission recommended sweeping reforms, among them with stricter laws
on registering human sources, statutory protections to ensure that lawyers
could never again act as informants without independent oversight, and
the creation of a special investigator to determine whether criminal
charges should be pursued against either Lawyer X or the
police officers who managed her.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah. See, this is an interesting one because I don't
know necessarily if they should. I don't know. Obviously we're
telling their story, Holly, this will be revealed. Another thing.
You have ground for criminal prosecution for lawyer X. You
definitely have civil grounds. If I was a client of hers,
I would be looking to sue perhaps her law firm
(08:15):
in Victoria Police.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
There could be possible perjury charges. It could be possible
conspiring charges.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
In charges obstructing. Yes, yeah, no, I definitely agree with
you on those two.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So it won't be like big criminal charges. They she
didn't murder anybody, But there are administration criminal charges. If
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, no, it does, it does. No, I didn't think
of perjury. Perjury is a good one.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
The Commission stressed that the issue was not only one
of past misconduct, but of public trust. In the very
idea of justice, prials must be fair not only in
fact but in perception, and here both had been jeopardized.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
The tomato tins drugs syndigates cases exemplify the wide ranging
impacts of Miss Gobo's conduct. She provided Victoria Police with
information about the drug syndicate led by mister Pascal Barbao, and,
taking advantage of her relationship with another of her clients,
mister Rabbi rom Curham, gave the police the bill of
(09:18):
ladding for a shipment of tomato tins that contained vast
amounts of mdmay. She told police about the locations of
meetings between mister Grump and other co conspirators. Ultimately, thirty
two people were convicted for their part in the Barbero
drug syndicate. Remarkably, Miss Gobbo acted for at least ten
of these people after having provided police with information that
(09:40):
may have led them to being charged. As these briefcase
studies show Miss Gobo's conduct as a human source for
Victoria Police while practicing as a criminal defense lawyer was
extensive and substantial and sustained. It was also inexcusable. Her
breach of her obligations as a lawyer has undermined the
administration of justice, compromise criminal convictions, damaged the standing of
(10:03):
Victorian police and the legal profession, and shaken public trust
and confidence in Victoria's criminal justice system. Quote from the
Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants Final Report,
November twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
When the defense lawyer who is at the center of
a scandal is literally representing one in three of the convicted,
there's trouble.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I totally agree with you. The wording of this is
very interesting and how it's sort of it seems in
a lot of ways to abdicate responsibility from the Victorian
police in certain.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Ways, trying to just lay it all on her.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, And at the end of the day, it really
comes down to Victoria Police who administered her as a
human source. They could have said no.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
They could have just set her intel into the.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Bin and then it would have stopped. They could have
just said no, we're not using you as a human
source and then stops. So you know, there is language
here that almost makes it worded like she has there
is responsibility. She as a trained lawyer, knows that she
was most lightly in breach of ethics, and by working
(11:14):
so closely with Victorian Police, you know, she had to
at least in the back of her mind, know that
the situation was going to reflect poorly on her and
was going to cause some damage to the criminal justice system,
or at least the perception of it. So she would
have had to have known that and therefore hesitate responsibility
for that. Again, the buck could have stopped twice. It
(11:36):
could have stopped with Victorian police. It could have stopped
with the prosecutors. So they had lines of defense if
they had used them, and they didn't. And because they
had so many lines of defense in so much information,
I think when it comes down to it, Victorian Police
is far more culpable than Miss Gobbo, though at the
end of the day she is also you know, let's
(11:58):
call it this, let's call it this seventy five percent
Victoria Police twenty five percent mis googo, there you go.
There's arbitrary mathematics that is going to make sense only
to me and no one else. So that's sort of
where I come down on it. I think the criminal
justice system is always very protective of police, even when
(12:18):
it is quite obvious that police have participated in misconduct,
and they've always got to protect you know, it's like
protect ourselves, protect ourselves, protect ourselves. And that is the
exact problem, you know, led to someone like Miscobo being
used as a human source is that, you know, we
have to be insular, we have to protect ourselves, we
(12:39):
have to be quiet, we have to get the convictions
at all costs. We don't have a justice system. We
have a legal system. So the reason that we have
those distinctions is that we have to work within the
parameters of a set of laws to make sure that
(13:00):
we're not convicting people who are innocent. You know, we
need a good burden of proof, we need to use
witnesses appropriately. And so if you were to turn around
and say, Matthew, what about justice for all of the
victims of the gang land was wasn't it better to
shut it down as quickly as possible on the balance
of probabilities? I totally agree with that statement. Yes, it
(13:22):
is the right moral choice to shut these things down
as quickly as possible. But the justice system can't operate
on good moral choice. It has to operate on legal
precedent and agreed legislation. I'm not saying it's perfect. It's
better than operating the justice system from the perspective of
(13:43):
our hearts instead of our heads under stringent rules, just
how it has to operate. And most people have that
comfort of being able to turn around and say, well, no,
I prefer if it's more moralistic. And everyone says that
because most people have the privilege of never been in
that courtroom. But the day you are in that courtroom,
(14:06):
you do want all those protections for yourself.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, someone agrees with the death penalty until it's their
neck on the block.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, it's very interesting. I was discussing that with a
friend of mine the other day and they said, oh,
you know, Matt, you've been in the world of true crime.
How do you feel about the death penalty? And I said,
from a moral standpoint, there's a cold killer out there,
and they kill and kill and kill and kill, and
they continue to kill. I actually think it's more a
(14:32):
more finning punishment that they have to sit in the
cell for the next sixty years. Because I'm an atheist.
I don't believe in heaven or hell. There are people
there who advocate for the death penalty, and they're like, oh,
we're just sending them the hell quicker, which is fine.
You know, if that's your belief system, that's your belief system.
But I don't live in that world, and so I
operate within my own framework, and so I think it's
(14:57):
more finning punishment to leave them in a cube to
sit and think about what they've done for the next
sixty years or however long they live when you arrest them.
The problem with the death penalty, as Holly is mentioned
that is that you cannot one hundred percent guarantee that
you are not going to wrongly convict someone.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Unless they stand up and say, I did it, Just
fucking do it.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You know. In America we have seen time and time
again there have been convictions overturned at the last minute.
People have been exonerated due to DNA evidence. The Freedom Project,
which is a non for profit over in America, estimates
that the people who are sitting on death row at
the moment ten percent are innocent and me personally, and
(15:45):
then again This is where my personal morals come in.
I don't think it's worth killing ten percent of innocent
people putting them through that fear. The ninety percent, who
I believe should be seen in a cell for the
rest of their lives to contemplate what they've done.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Well, even in Australia, look at a Geric Cooks. He
had two people who ended up being arrested for his crimes. Yep,
they worsened us to death. The only thing that saved
them was the fact that we stopped killing people.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, it's a very very good example, Holly. I just
don't think that the criminal justice system is robust enough
to be able to prosecute those sort of cases with
certainty that you are going to arrest the right person
and convict the right person. And there you go. That
brings us full circle, doesn't it. The robustness of the
(16:35):
criminal justice system is not robust enough to protect against
a wrongful death by the state, And so we have
to be as robust as we can when dealing with
human sources, and we have to remember our ethics and
the legal rights of everybody. So there you go. Enough
moralizing for me, Holly. Back to the episode.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The fallout of Nicolo Gobo's name being released public was
immediate and sprawling. Convictions that had seemed final were suddenly reopened,
even of those who were already dead.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I think what they ended up having to reopen in
the vicinity of one hundred cases.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
They're still investigating how many they have to pull open,
so it could be more. Yeah, because she wasn't the
only one who was a compromised witness. That's what I'm
gonna call. There were a few other people who should
not have been human sources who work human sources. Their
names have not been released, but they are alluded to
within the report.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, and if you'd like some more background on that,
go and check out our series on the Wall Street Stoudents,
where you'll say that one witness was particularly compromised again
and again and again by a very youthful, spirited Victorian
police officer.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Feminism for fucking thanks for the clarification. Could never have guessed.
Carl Williams Associates, the Morans Rivals, and a variety of
traffickers and gangland figures logged appeals, some of which succeeded.
Others filed compensation claims arguing that they or their family
had been denied a fair trial. I would agree with
(18:09):
that the state braced for financial liabilities within the tens
of millions range. For police, reputations were ruined and careers
were cut short. For the legal profession, the affair was
a profound humiliation. E raised unsettling questions about how a
member of the bar could have strayed so far without
an intervention, and how the profession's own oversight mechanisms had
(18:33):
failed to detect it.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, that one is interesting. I mean, do you question
everything your employee does at all times?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Is that when they do something stupid?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
You know, is that level of accountability even possible in
a professional setting? I would argue it's not. I would
argue that Gobbo was most likely meeting with police her
own volition, on her own time. You know, do you
(19:05):
police her lunch breaks? Do you police her afternoons? Do
you police her evenings? Do you police her weekends?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If your employer is willing to turn around later on
and say, look, I knew that something was up because
she was always partying with the Rands, surely at that
point he has a legal obligation or something like that,
ethical obligation to go this isn't right I should tell someone.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean, I'm not sure in that respect, I would
imagine that many defense attorneys hang out with people that
they shouldn't. But answer us this question. If you're a
defense attorney, I know someone who is a defense attorney,
and you could provide us some inside weekrapin Australia at
gmail dot com. We'd actually love to hear from our
(19:48):
lawyers out there or anyone who has worked in the
legal profession. Maybe you have an opinion on this. Coould
someone who is working as a defense attorney hang out
with their clients.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Personally?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
See there. I mean, I can speak to this a
little bit again. When it comes to counseling. The we
we so we have a lot of rules about fratnization
to the point where should you be accepting gifts from
a client? Right? So that is sort of case by
(20:22):
case basis. So let's say you've had, you know, a
great twelve weeks of sessions or however many long it takes,
and they hand you a basket of baked goods. Right,
you know, Holly, Holly's been seeing there as a client.
She goes, thank you so much, You've helped a lot,
you know, I've baked. I've baked these biscuits for you,
(20:44):
and you could turn around and accept that gift. But
even then it's still sort of iffy, you know. I
to diffuse that situation, I would go, oh, thank you,
do you mind if I share it with everyone in
the office today. You know, that would be great for
our tea room for this afternoon. Thank you so much,
you know. And then if they turn around say, you know,
we get on really well, I'd love to go out
(21:05):
and have a coffee with you because I think we
could be friends already. That's a no, right, That's a
straight up no. And there's nothing wrong with being friendly
with your counselor because you know they come into it
with empathy. Right. That's the whole idea of it is this,
you know, unconditional positive regard for you as a client.
If you don't, it doesn't work. But that means that
(21:28):
once the sessions are finished, that's where the relationship ends,
goes even further than that, it is frowned upon and
will be reviewed. Should you start a sexual relationship with
a client during or after sessions have concluded, Not during sessions,
but I mean during the time you've seen them in
(21:49):
the professional capacity. That's a big, big no no. But
then it's also in the ethics and code from the
Australian Counseling Association that you should even have. You are
required to have a two year gap before starting any
sort of relationship with that client. Right, So that's pretty strict,
(22:10):
you would agree, Yeah, right, and for good reason. I'm
I scored quite highly in ethics, as I've mentioned in
previous podcasts. Thanks because I really like that subject.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Matthew's a real stickler.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
So if counselors who at the moment in Australia, and
this will change in the future, I'm sure, But counselors
are actually technically unregulated. That's why you join up with
licensing bodies to essentially give yourself some sort of sort
of formality for clients to report you in case you're
doing the wrong thing. And it's also good for assuring
(22:44):
clients who you are part of a set of code
and practices. If it's that restrictive for us, you have
to imagine that when it comes to lawyers it has
to at least be equally restrictive. Although I'd be interested
to see a fraternization as part of their code of ethics.
(23:05):
You would have to think it is right.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean, you'd think so.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
If it is for me with getting a twelvemonth diploma,
probably it has to for one of the I think
isn't isn't doctors are the hardest or the highest UAI
courses in the country, aren't they. Yeah, so you would
have to assume right, we think so. Anyway, lawyers, let
(23:31):
us know, love to hear from you week Crapanaustralia, gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Your layer also cannot receive any benefit from their relationship
with you other than the usual payment for legal services.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
They have provided.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Would that actually cover and that's from LSBC dot VIC,
dot gov DOTU so that's a Victorian government. Would that
cover things like shouting new drinks when you go out
clubbing with them, shouting new drugs when you go out
clubbing with them. Having a sexual relationship is most definitely
one of the.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I mean, I could sort of see you as a
defense attorney.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You pay me my fee and that's all I get
out of you. You don't give me books, you don't
give me money, you don't give me drugs, drinks, nothing,
not even a Christmas card. Technically, technically it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Getting a beer. Well, like, let's say you're out with
your family or whatnot, and they're like, oh, you know,
thank you so much for helping me. I'd like to
shout your round of drinks and they send it to
the table and that's it. I don't necessarily have a
problem with that. I would say it becomes very problematic
when you were spending night after night out with them,
hanging out. Yeah, once you're hanging out in a friendly capacity,
(24:40):
as opposed to just a very quick one off. Oh, like,
here's a beer, Thank you so much for helping me
with my case. Yeah, I think at that point you've
got problems. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
For the public, the revelation was more personal. The notion
that a defense lawyer might secretly collaborate with police struck
at a core expectation of fairness. Even those with absolutely
no sympathy for gangland figures could see the danger. If
privilege could be broken for them, it could be broken
from me. A High Court's judgment had warned of this,
(25:11):
that the confidence in the justice system was not a
luxury but a necessity, and that once eroded, it was
difficult to restore. By the time Lawyer X was revealed,
the damage was already irreversible. The system had compromised its
own foundation that even the guilty were entitled to a
fair defense. Lawyer's duty of loyalty is sacro sainct. The
(25:33):
fallout continues to this day, but the moment of revelation
in December twenty eighteen remains the pivot point, when the
secrecy gave way to public exposure and the scope of
the scandal was laid bare. When the High Court finally
revealed her identity, Gobo retreated from public view, citing threats
to her safety. She later told journalists she felt abandoned
(25:53):
by the very police who had once conforted her assistance
for the story of parentforming is not easily reduced to
betrayal of victimhood. It is rather a cautionary tale about ambition, fear,
and the corrosive effect of blurred boundaries between personal desire
and professional duty.
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Speaker 2 (27:04):
In the end, Gobo's life became entangled with the very
forces she once sought to master. Her work with police
reshaped astray in legal history, unraveled manger convictions, and prompted
a royal commission. It also left her isolated, disbarred, and villified.
Her career stands as a stark reminder that the law's
integrity depends not on grand ideals alone, but on the
(27:26):
everyday causes of those who worn to serve it.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Miss Gobo sued the state, which is responsible for the
actions of police, in twenty twenty one but the court
suppressed details of her claim until July twenty twenty three.
In court papers, she accused Victorian police of negligence and
high handed, insulting or reprehensible conduct in inducing her to
become a police informer, resulting in damage to her physical
(27:52):
and mental health. Said that when Victorian police approached her
to become an informant, she expressed grave concerns for her
safety due to her connections with the underworld, including risk
of death if confidential information was released. Miss Gobo claimed
that she had only agreed to become an informer after
police officers, including former Commissioner Simon Overland, assured her that
(28:13):
her identity would remain confidential. However, she alleged to the
officers knew or ought to have known, that they could
not protect her from being exposed. Quote from lawyer ex
Nicola Gobo loses compensation claim for damages suffered after informing
on clients and Butler Friday, the thirteenth of June twenty
twenty five. Look, there is an extreme level of manipulation
(28:36):
that has occurred here. I don't think Gobo is, as
I have said in previous episodes. I can't diagnose her
nor would I, but there are several indicators here of
a mental illness that would make her vulnerable towards reckless behavior,
(28:56):
which she has demonstrated multiple times. So she does have
to take some responsibility. But I think it might be
difficult for someone like her to take some responsibility. I'm
not saying all saying some that twenty five percent I
mentioned earlier. I think it's I don't know if she
can quite comprehend her own level of responsibility, and that
(29:19):
in itself means that she was absolutely the wrong person
to be dragged into this, this, this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
So, you know, is it important scent? If she's easy
to manipulate into it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
That's very difficult to answer because so this is where
I always lean to and answering this question, Holly, there
are functioning psychopaths, and they are psychopaths who kill. If
one group of psychopaths can be functional members of society,
(29:53):
some even do tiktoks and whatnot, calling them the sociopath,
you know, counselor or psychologist, because they learn the fundamentals, right,
Like they can't have empathy, but they can still be
effective members of the mental health profession.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Right you recognize what they should be doing even if
they can't feel it.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, and they can sort of
get off on the idea of being the best counselor
on the planet. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
There's always it shouldn't. But it does surprise me that
psychopaths are usually very narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Well they are, yeah, and it's just for that lack
of The only empathy they have is for themselves. The
problem with the way we deal with psychopaths at the
moment is we keep studying the ones that are in prison,
and the population of psychopaths is actually quite higher than.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That, which is a form of confirmation bias.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That's right, exactly, You're one hundred percent right, Holly. So
are roll psychopaths serial killers? No? Are serial killer psychopaths yes? So,
going back to the question that I present, it, good
psychopath be considered not able to be accountable for their
(31:05):
crimes because of their psychopathy? No, I mean no, No,
you're right, you're right. The first time I'll tell you
why you're right? Sorry No, wait, you answered no, don't you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And then I was going to change it to yes.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Change it yes? And why would you change it to yes?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Because if I can be held responsible for what I
did when I was drunk, then surely he can be
held responsible for something he's been doing his entire life.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
That's definitely on the right track. And my answer is
if a functioning psychopath exists, therefore a psychopath who murders
is culpable of their actions, because there are psychopaths who
are psychopaths who don't murder.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
If one can show restraint, all are potential, no capable
of it.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That is correct, all of them have will power. There
is actually a correlation between low IQ and serial killers,
then high IQ and serial killers and people.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And I assert that that is a form of confirmation bias.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well, no, in this case, because you have people like
Ted Bundy or Edmund Kemper who had quite a high IQ.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
And then you have all the serial killers that haven't
been caught yet so you don't have their data.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
There aren't that many active serial killers anymore, you know
the Yeah, And I would argue that while Ted Bundy
may have had a high IQ on paper, his defense
of himself was one of the worst defenses that I
think has been mounted by someone who had the IQ
(32:39):
to know better and should have hired a lawyer. Right.
So all of that being said, do I think that
if miss Gobo does have some sort of difficulties mentally,
whether she has, you know, a mental health issue, does
that negate her responsibility. It doesn't. It's complicated and should
(33:06):
be considered.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
A reason, not an excuse.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
That's correct. It should be considered as part of a
set of circumstances, and that consideration needs to be taken
into account. You know, if we have someone in the
criminal justice system who is a violent offender, let's say,
and they have never been diagnosed for a particular condition,
(33:30):
there are some mental health conditions that, do you know,
unfortunately exacerbate violent tendency sometimes. And let's say they're diagnosed
in prison, and let's say they're given medication, and let's
say that completely changes who they are. They start becoming
a model citizen. Could they still go to prison for
(33:53):
their crimes, Yeah, they should, because we are capable, We
do have options.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It just means that you actually start looking at the
possibility of parole.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
That's right, because under these circumstances they can become a
functioning member of society again, and that should be how
it was looked at with miss Gobo. If they went
to the point of gin or a diagnosis if she
is indeed mentally unwell. I think she is, and if
they'd gotten that diagnosis, that should have been considered. But
(34:24):
I think, you know, Victorian criminal justicism was in damage control.
What do we do you know, do we paint the
entire Victorian police as corrupt, feckless idiots who have been
participating on both sides of the Gangland Wars, or do
we say it was on miss Gobo's fault you go
find a bus, you know. And I think in some
(34:45):
way she was being set up as a bit of
a patsy too.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
When we started this series, Matthew, you wanted to know
one thing, all of the scandalous sexy details.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Wow wow, that's right to ladies and gentlemen, strap yourself in.
It is after midnight radio. We're going to get all
of the salacious details that you know and love. Make
sure that you were sitting in your comphys of velvet pajamas.
And if you don't have velvet pajamas, we're regular when
(35:22):
the lapsed pajamas. As we pipolate the sensors with heels
of Europhicism and the legal system, this is Ali McBeal
up late, I'm gainer. I'm not impressed with you. Face.
(35:42):
I can't even see your face through the sound shield
and I can I can tell I'm geener. I'm not
impressed face.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Lyrics was suggested to have slept with at least one
of the police officers that later registered her as an informer.
This one was almost almost completely confirmed. There is, of course,
a little bit of denial, because there always is. This
was Tim Argall. There were always rumors that she slept
with some of her clients as well, but when the
Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants released a report,
(36:15):
there was no substantiated claims of her sleeping with anyone
of consequence over her entire long career, aside from allegedly
corrupt police officer Paul Dale.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Of course, one of her victims was victims, victims, victims,
victim blaming and who wrote the like where did this
come from?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
This particular story.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Lawyer's Weekly, Lawyers Weekly. You'd think that someone would know
better than to defame someone like that.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't think i'd call mister Dale
a victim. Look, let's talk about this a little bit. Actually,
so let's talk about victims and not victims. Right, Mescovo
has been and this has been admitted to by Victorian police.
(37:04):
She has been targeted because she is vulnerable, you know,
health wise, that has affected her mental health. She is vulnerable.
It's in the reports. That's why they went after it. Right,
This person who is in a position of protection I
will protect you from you are a important part of
(37:26):
this and you are answering to me, how is that
person of victim?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, it's the power and balance that says that he's
the victim, not him.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Absolutely. I'm sorry, but you just can't balance it out
either way, you know. Is she a victim, victim? Victim?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Victim victim, a victim's victim?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
What's her degree of victimhood? I think it's lighter than
some people, if we could, if we even need to
clarify that, you know, I don't necessarily think you need
to clarify that. I think you know, a victim is
a victim, is a victim. Certainly the police officer who
is acting with in a cour like so he knows
(38:06):
what his duty is, he knows what his code of
ethics is. Why is he a victim? What power imbalance?
Has made him a victim. Did she rape him? Not?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
As far as I can find out, it was definitely
very willing.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Is he a victim in regards to the negative publicity
he got and his career knows diving, Perhaps because of
the repercussions of his associations.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
From his actions. Yes, not his associations.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
You know, I don't see how they could establish him
as a victim. But you know, it is a lawyer's weekly,
so you know, we're not talking about the best people
in the world.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I did search up the owner of all that and
it's owned by an independent media company, so same on them.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Independent media that has connected some way, shape and form
to two conservative media or I'm.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Creative media is the ultimate owner of it. I don't
know who owns that.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's definitely not It's not linked to Murdoch or Packers
or any of those that I can say.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
So back to the quote, one of her victims was
mister Dale, a former senior detective of the drug Squad
who at different point stream Teak thousands was her friend,
lover and then client. Quote from lawyer ex and Paul Dale,
the story of dirty tricks, cover ups and corruptions. So look,
if she was represented in an official capacity and she
was also informing on him, yes you get to be
(39:34):
a victim at that point, but only in that regard.
Him sleeping with her was his own choice. Friends with her.
You know, you could even say it was up to
her to turn around and say to him, sorry, we've
been friends and I've slept with you. Therefore I can't
represent you. There are too many ethics here that could
(39:56):
be violated.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You're my hand Laurino slept with you. This is a
third strike.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I shouldn't go with No, chalk this up to bad
as each other.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
No substantiated claims. Also, aside from the sex takes that
Tony Mockbell tried to blackmail her with in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Eight, Tony Mockbell blackmailed Nicolagobo over sex tapes, according to
her police handlers. As a public inquiry heard, she had
a bond with the drug boss that was beyond the
normal lawyer client relationship. Miss Gobbo, a gangland barrister turned
high level informer, told her police handlers that Mockbell had
tried to blackmail her over the sex videos in two
thousand and eight. According to notes made by the police
(40:36):
officers released by the Supreme Court last month. Quote from
Tony Mockbell allegedly blackmailed Nicolagobo over sex tapes Hemmy Mills
and Chris Felled the lego May first, twenty nineteen. The
age and.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Also aside from the situationship, she alleged between herself and
now Victorian Police Assistant Commissioner Jeff Pope in nineteen ninety
nine or two thousand when he registered her as an informant.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So she alleged that we are not saying that it
didn't and that is all we will say.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
There's a lot of allegations and very little confirmations, but
we're going to say the politicians in it.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And here's a quote late October twenty eleven, she Gobbo
made an allegation that for a number of months she
had a sexual relationship with you on and off. You
understand that, ask QC. Christopher Weniki. Yes, mister Pope replied,
you denied that allegation, said mister Winnicki, fully said mister Pope.
While mister Pope denied any affair with the disgrace barrister
(41:37):
to other officers admitted to physical intimacy detective seeing your
Sergeant Tim Argell and Detective Paul Dale. Quote from Victorian
police officer reveals intimate history with lawyer x nine Yews
April tewond twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
You get two confirmations from the men themselves. I mean
it's one of them who are alleged victim.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, I mean, unless you got proof it is, it's
going to be hard to prove that there is this systemic,
the systemic relationships that she is having with Victorian police
officers and with the criminal underworld. So you know, is
Pope simply been guilty by association or are their credibilities
(42:23):
to the allegations. Again, it's been alleged. I don't want
to be sued. That's where I'll leave it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And there was also an alleged relationship with corrupt police
officer Steve Campbell to go along with.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
It, with whom mis Gobo had once had a relationship
and continue to see from time to time. Quote from
Nicolagobo's testimony at the Lawyer ex Royal Commission as it
happened Joseph Sustein and Will Jackson, Tuesday the fourth of
February twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
But aside from all of them, no, all above board.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
No.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
The saga of Lawyer X ultimately revealed not just the
downfall of one barrister, but the power all that follows
when the foundations of justice are eroded. For years, the
uneasy pact between police and Gobbo produced short term victories
against crime, but those gains came at the expense of
the very principles the justice system is meant to defend.
When the High Court finally forced her identity into the
(43:16):
open in twenty eighteen, the reckoning that followed exposed deep
and systematic failures that could no longer be ignored. The
Royal Commission had laid bare the scale of the damage,
making it clear that legal privilege and loyalty are not
abstract ideas, but essential safeguards for every citizen. The scandal
endures as a stark reminder that once trust in the
(43:37):
system is broken, it is painfully hard to restore, and
that the integrity of justice must never be sacrificed, even
in the pursuit of the guilty. Speaking of the guilty,
all of those investigations, prials, retrials are still ongoings, So
we're going to be talking about that again. In the future.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I think you summed it up very well there, Holly.
As I mentioned in the episode, it is so, so
very imp important you maintain the strictest standards for our
legal system. Who protect us, protect me, protects you. There
are lots of how many people on this this podcast
(44:14):
have we covered, Holly, who have been falsely arrested?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
At least three women that I can think of, who
have at least been told later on that their charges
have been dismissed or their convictions have been dropped or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And if those protections had been in place for those women,
do you think they would have been prosecuted or convicted? Maybe?
Maybe not?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Considering the pylons For all three of the people I can.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Think of, Lindy Chamberlain should never have been convicted.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
It was Lindy Chairman Chamberlin, Joanna Leese, Kathleen Felbig and
Kathleen Folbigo. Lee's was never frial by media and she
was questioned heavily.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, you know, so, so I think in those regards,
you know, you you do have to be careful. You know,
we need these protections. I need these protections for me.
Holly needs them for her and don't ever say I'll
never be in that situation. I'm a good Laura binding citizen.
You just don't know ins. I don't know about you,
but I seek better at night knowing that those legal
(45:16):
standards are being upropelled, because maybe one day I might
need them, and so could you. Well, ladies and gentlemen,
before we let you go, don't forget. There are a
couple of ways that you can contact us. You can
find us on the social media Week crap in Australia.
Just time that into the search bar of your favorite
social media of choice. You can also send us an
email Week Crap in Australia at gmail dot com. We'd
(45:39):
love to hear from you. Keep those story suggestions coming,
and if you work in the legal profession, we'd love
to hear your take on some of the topics that
we've brought up over this three part series. Next week
we are doing another commentary. As long as the recording
equipment doesn't do as dirty.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
It wasn't the recording.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
I tried to protect you. I don't want to throw
you under the bus, but you're thrown yourself under the bus. Yeah,
Holly accidentally deleted the you didn't hit save. Did you
you jumped out of the wrong screen? And yet that's okay,
it was new software and you haven't used it before
a lot, and now you've been practicing by recording backups
(46:23):
of the show, Like right now, have you hit the
save button?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well?
Speaker 1 (46:27):
No, do you wait till the end? Yeah? I wasn't
going to throw you under the bus, and you threw
yourself under the bus.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
I do that.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
So we are going to take another crack Lake Mungo
celebration of her being spooketuber spooky spooky Tobra. I'm actually
like two reviews behind on Instagram. I've been really naughty
this year. I was very, very on top of it.
Last year. I haven't had that same enthusiasm to like
(46:55):
watch horror movie after horror movie after horror movie last
year because I found the by the end of it,
I was a bit horrid out. No, I didn't go
back and revisit the horror genre for at least six months,
I think when twenty eight years Later came out. This
year was great for horror.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
No, it was let her in game first, wasn't it let.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Me bring her back?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Bring her back?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Let me in is?
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, Well, that's the thing about this year. It's like
this year for horror has been fantastic. Sinners was great,
and then You Had Weapons was fantastic. Twenty eight years
later was fantastic. Twenty eight years later. Is a real
like heart string good for a three quarter. It is
especially one that was made like nearly twenty odd years
(47:41):
after the fact, over twenty years after the fact. But
it's a heart string puller, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
You know there's one scene there that really just oh,
I don't think there was a dry eye in the audience.
So I'd highly recommend that film. Opens was fantastic and
Sinners was great, and yeah, bring her back from the
Philippel Brothers here in Australia is ridiculously good. Sally Hawkins
(48:12):
is fantastic. You will you will both be impressed with
the film and fucking hate me for recommending it, hate
yourself for watching it. It is hard to watch it,
is it?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Really pushes were writ as Matthew started doing his counseling stuff,
so his brain was automatically ticking what was going on,
and it was funny to sit there and listen to
his brain team.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
It was also funny to see Holly revert to a
teenage girl going on a date with her boyfriend as
she continued to hide my shoulder while we were watching
that film. But yeah, my assie horror pic this year
is definitely bring Her Back if you can stomach it.
It is a hard it's in my opinion, they are bordering,
(48:59):
if not at the same level as the French extremist movement,
they're getting close. I think they're really fucking close, don't you.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I don't know. I don't think I think they outdid
Martyrs a little bit.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
No, I don't think so. I think I think it's
closer than a lot of people would think. God, So
Martis is a French extremist film, which is also a
horror movie.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Like a psychological horror movie.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Oh, it is fucking rough. I don't know if anyone
you know these films though, I don't recommend them because
they're violent, Like that's never my intention. My intention is
not to be like violence is cool, man, Like I
get off on all the blood and the gore. Yeah,
I fucking hate that attitude. Like, if you're only watching
(49:51):
horror movies for that, I don't know, man, there might
be something wrong there. I watch horror films because the
scope of what a horror film can be is huge.
You know, you look at just this year alone, you've
had multiple vampire films, a kind of zombie movie that's
(50:11):
more about a coming of age story, Bring It Back,
involves some sort of maybe not even nefarious entity, maybe
a neutral entity. And then you've got like movies like Together,
which is all which was also from an Australian director,
mostly Australian crew. The only thing that wasn't Australian about
(50:31):
that is is Frank Cowen Brie, who are American actors.
You've got a movie coming out very shortly called good Boy,
just about a possession story from the dog's perspective, and
the main character is the dog. You know, horror can
do that. It's just this very you know, intriguing genre
(50:55):
that is very very fluid, and that's why I like
horror films. I don't necessarily like to see people hurt,
but you would have to argue that it is a
great way to create tension, drama, suspense and some genuine acting.
Tony Collette losing a fucking mind in Hereditary, speaking again
(51:16):
of Australians, is just something to fucking behold that movie.
Holy fuck. Yeah, Hereditary is a rough one. Midsomer that
was his follow up. That's a rough one as well.
Lots of great horror movies out there. You know, go
and bracehre Halloween spirit. Don't give me a shit about
being an American holiday. It wasn't originally American holiday. I'm
(51:37):
celebrating my Irish roots. Man. We actually we did Halloween
in London a couple of years ago. That was fantastic.
There was still some Halloween stuff left up that was
still in Halloween season. When we went to Disneyland Paris.
That was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
We left Disneyland Paris on the ninth, I believe because
we got there on the far.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, and there was still like the scary decorations was
still up, like the scarecrows and Jack Skellington was getting.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
About to watch the transition. It was cool.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yeah, from yeah, Halloween, from Halloween to Christmas and in
the night we did never and never Mind. So yeah, shit,
I've sort of got lost here talking about how great
horror films are. So I've done the social media done that.
You can support the show in a couple of different ways.
First and foremost being Patreon. If you want these episodes
(52:29):
early and add free, go to Patreon. We also do
minisodes where we talk about some of the headlines that
happen to grab my interests that we You can also
check out our book series. Volume one to six are
available at in stock at Impact Comics. Think stock on
volume six has gotten a little low, so make sure
you get in there. They make great Christmas presents. We
are headed towards silly season. Some may argue that we're
(52:51):
already in it if you are interested in getting that.
We all have that relative who enjoys a good history
book that isn't too intense.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Do you have a relative that likes war history like
my grandfather? Do you have a relatives that likes True
Climb through Crime like my grandmother. I would like animal
stories like my niece and nephew. Buy our books because
they'll make everybody happy.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I'm more interested in your True Climb book.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Yeah, that's the story of the rock climbers that fell.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah it is. It is a great little anthology book.
You know. You consider it on a coffee table and
pick it up every now and again read a little
story from it. If you have a relative that is
a big Australiana fan. Our book series will be great
for them. Volume one, two, six are available. If you
buy you know a couple of different volumes. You want
them signed Impact Comics dot com today you as a
(53:46):
place to go. Just shoot them an email when you
make their order and just let them know that we
need to go down there and go sign those books
for you. Certainly happy to do that. So that's the
book series and a last but not leasy. If you
want a weir Crap in Australia T shirt or any
other piece of merchandise said to our read but red
head to our red Bubble and Tea public stores, just
(54:06):
type in weird Crap in Australia to the search engine
and as is our custom, well, it hasn't really been
lately because I've been jumping in every five minutes. We
give Holly the last words.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
So you asked me about wrongful convictions in Australia and
I only gave the women. There were a couple of
men that we have covered, which include Button and Beamish
who were They weren't framed by Cook, but Cook tried
to take credit for the kills and the legal system
was like no they did it. He's like, no, I
fucking did it, and they're like, no, they did it.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
He's like, I'm a good Catholic Irish boy and I
want to commit. I want to I want to make
sure that you know what I did. And they're like, nah, we're.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Not buying it. You just want to make your legacy bigger.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Otherwise we'd be wrong.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Yep, and we don't want to do that. No, we're
never wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
It was a serial killer and I believe Western Australia
as well, who killed a few people and there was
a person wrongly convicted for that. We should actually do
an episode on wrongful con I think it would be
really eye opening for people. And I did it again.
I saw Holley so on a word as well as
That's it from muslies and gentlemen. Please stay safe, be
kind to each other, and we'll see you next week
for more. We crap in Australia. Don't forget. It is
(55:12):
going to be an audio commentary unless someone doesn't have
to say button, and it is going to be the
wonderful horror film at Lake Mungo. You can watch Lake
Mungo right now on your streaming service a choice. I
believe it's on Prime. Otherwise, it's available for purchase on
Amazon Prime, YouTube and physical copies, Umbrella dot com dot
(55:34):
Au and I think Jbhifi does it as well. I
would highly highly recommend you watch this film. If you're
only going to do me a solid and watch one
horror movie this spooky season, please please make it Lake Mungo.
It is a fantastic horror film with a great twist
that you will not see coming. I promise you that
(55:54):
it is one of those examples of the found footage
genre that is actually good. It does so. I really
really love that movie. It's a great piece of Australie
for me. Please go check that out Lakemungo. You can
stream it right now on Amazon Prime and you can
purchase it from any of your movie purchasing places of choice.
(56:16):
I'm thinking, like what, Apple, YouTube, Amazon.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
I thought you googled it while you were talking.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I'm making some assumptions. It's definitely streamable on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
I'm really available on Foxtel, Amazon Prime and Google TV.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
There you go go buy it. It's great, good movie.
Well that's it from us. Stay safe, We'll see you
next time. Bye for now, Bye the Weird crap In
(56:52):
Australia podcast is produced by Holly and Matthew Soul for
the Modern Meltdown. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate
and review on your favorite podcatching app.
A strange, spiraling white light was spotted in the early
morning sky over Sydney, with even skeptical witnesses wondering if
it was a UFO.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
They were last seen on the beach with the tall
man and that's the best description police have ever had
of it. More than seventeen years after Harold Holt disappeared
into raging surf at Chevy A Beach, his widow has
finally revealed his last romantic words docky, terrifying, mesmerizing.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
That's the way a number of Australians have described the
alleged encounter with the Yowie. It's time for the Weird Crap
In Australia podcast. Welcome to the week Crap In Australia Podcast.
(00:46):
I'm your host Matthew sol Joining me for another episode
is Holy Soul, Hellaire. This is episode at three hundred
and eighty three deconclusion to Lawyer X. And we've had
a little bit of news around the studio.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Haven't we, Holly, Yes, we have a new hire.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
You can you don't need me to continue to prompt
for your facade and just keep going go for.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
So we got a little twelve year old twelve week
old kitten. Her name is Harley, she is it.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Is cute.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I'm pretty sure that would have just got pat off
by the editing.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. No, we got another little rescue cat. As you
all know, we unfortunately had to put Talia to sleep.
She was very sad and we gave it some time.
Let's let things heal a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
And I looked at her desexing certificate. She was born
the week before we put Tarley down to Yeah, she
was born the six we put Tally down on the thirteenth.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's an odd coincidence, isn't it. There is, of course
no timeline for griefing. Ladies and John. If you go
out and get another pet right away, or you wait,
or you do whatever you need to do, it's definitely
up to you. But we thought, well, enough time has
passed and a little opportunity came up to adopt a kitten,
so we headed down to Aubrey. My mother's down there
(02:17):
and she picked her up for us. And yeah, we
went picked her up yesterday and Joker is doing very
very well. It's always interesting to see how an older
cat will gauge the reaction. When we got Talia, sorry,
when we got Joker Talia was not impressed with this
tiny little flute ball running around kissing at her and
(02:40):
the opposite.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But he couldn't quite get the noise out, puff of air.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
He's sort of puffed up, you know. So, yeah, we've
got this new little kitten running around and Joker seems
being on with her. Fine. So yeah, And speaking of
YouTube channel, of course, before anyone gets too excited, we
haven't posted, we haven't created content for it. It's a
(03:08):
lot of remastering of the older episodes, Hollies working with
a design team to build some cool thumbnails, some animations.
I guarantee you have not heard these episodes like this before.
There's a lot more clarity, they've been equalized.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I've removed references to the modern meltdown dot net because
that no longer exists. A lot of meltdown handles we
use them, so it's all just streamlined, we'll call it.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, But this is a little passion project of Holly's
to take the podcast to the YouTube channel, and we're
going to be putting content out there, and you never know,
we might do some video stuff as well down the line.
All right, ladies and gentlemen, it is the conclusion to
the channel that is Lawyer X, and I think we
can easily title this episode rap percussions. Take it away, Holly, Well, actually, no,
(04:00):
take it away, Holly, take it away, Matthew, as we
start the episode with a quote. The Commission held one
hundred and twenty nine days of public and private hearings
and heard from eighty two witnesses. In hearings held between
February twenty nineteen and February twenty twenty, the Commission examined
issues related to cases potentially affected by the use of
Miss Gobbo as a human source and the related conduct
(04:22):
of Victorian police officers terms of reference one in two.
In May twenty twenty, the Commission held hearings to examine
policy and practices issues related to the use of human
sources and human source information terms of reference three and four.
Quote from the Royal Commission into the Management of Police
Informants Final Report, Margaret McMurdo, November twenty twenty, age fourteen.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
The number of cases potentially affected by the Lawyer X
scandal counted in the hundreds, dozens at least clearly compromised.
Not all of this was because of Lawyer X, but
she was responsible for a good number of them. The
commission confirmed that Lawyer X had provided thousands of intelligence reports,
many based on privileged information that should have been protected
(05:10):
by the ethics of client confidentiality. It noted that internal
police warnings about the dangers had been ignored or overridden
in their search for a golden bullet to stop the
gangland wars.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I mean, that doesn't surprise me that there were internal warnings,
do not do this, do not do this. But I
think I made it quite clear in the previous episode
that I thought the prosecutors should have known better themselves.
They would have had a full brief on who their
witnesses were and where the sources were coming from. And
I think they should have been the last bashi, you know,
that last the quality control line that turned around and said,
(05:45):
you know, we will not we will not go further
with this. But well, we all know how it turns out,
don't we. They obviously did go further with it, and
you ended up in this situation. But it does not
surprise me that people within the police force were like,
don't know if we should use this momboyos.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
The commission also found that senior officers failed to balance
the lure of easy intelligence against their duty to preserve
the integrity of the justice system.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Victoria Police concedes that more than one hundred police officers
and personnel knew that Miscobo was a human source between
two thousand and five and two thousand and nine. It
appears that none of these officers or personnel reported it
to all raised concerns with Victoria Police's than ethical standards
department or with an external oversight body. Several officers who
gave evidence to the Commission stressed that at the time
(06:36):
of Miscobo's use as a human source, Victoria Police was
under significant pressure to stem the violence associated with Melbourn's
gangland wars. Some suggested that there was nothing unlawful or
improper about their management of Miscobo and the associated risks.
In late August twenty twenty, Victorian Police provided a submission
to the Commission in which it accepted without reservation that
(06:58):
the way in which mis Gobo was managed as a
human source in a way that resulted in a profound
interference with the relationship between lawyer and client was a
major failing. The consequences of that failing are resonating through
the criminal justice system and will do so for many years.
It has come at a very high cost to the organization,
to public confidence and to the criminal justice system. Our
(07:21):
quote is from the Royal Commission into the Management of
Police Informant's fund Or Report twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
The Commission recommended sweeping reforms, among them with stricter laws
on registering human sources, statutory protections to ensure that lawyers
could never again act as informants without independent oversight, and
the creation of a special investigator to determine whether criminal
charges should be pursued against either Lawyer X or the
police officers who managed her.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah. See, this is an interesting one because I don't
know necessarily if they should. I don't know. Obviously we're
telling their story, Holly, this will be revealed. Another thing.
You have ground for criminal prosecution for lawyer X. You
definitely have civil grounds. If I was a client of hers,
I would be looking to sue perhaps her law firm
(08:15):
in Victoria Police.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
There could be possible perjury charges. It could be possible
conspiring charges.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
In charges obstructing. Yes, yeah, no, I definitely agree with
you on those two.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So it won't be like big criminal charges. They she
didn't murder anybody, But there are administration criminal charges. If
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, no, it does, it does. No, I didn't think
of perjury. Perjury is a good one.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
The Commission stressed that the issue was not only one
of past misconduct, but of public trust. In the very
idea of justice, prials must be fair not only in
fact but in perception, and here both had been jeopardized.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
The tomato tins drugs syndigates cases exemplify the wide ranging
impacts of Miss Gobo's conduct. She provided Victoria Police with
information about the drug syndicate led by mister Pascal Barbao, and,
taking advantage of her relationship with another of her clients,
mister Rabbi rom Curham, gave the police the bill of
(09:18):
ladding for a shipment of tomato tins that contained vast
amounts of mdmay. She told police about the locations of
meetings between mister Grump and other co conspirators. Ultimately, thirty
two people were convicted for their part in the Barbero
drug syndicate. Remarkably, Miss Gobbo acted for at least ten
of these people after having provided police with information that
(09:40):
may have led them to being charged. As these briefcase
studies show Miss Gobo's conduct as a human source for
Victoria Police while practicing as a criminal defense lawyer was
extensive and substantial and sustained. It was also inexcusable. Her
breach of her obligations as a lawyer has undermined the
administration of justice, compromise criminal convictions, damaged the standing of
(10:03):
Victorian police and the legal profession, and shaken public trust
and confidence in Victoria's criminal justice system. Quote from the
Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants Final Report,
November twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
When the defense lawyer who is at the center of
a scandal is literally representing one in three of the convicted,
there's trouble.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
I totally agree with you. The wording of this is
very interesting and how it's sort of it seems in
a lot of ways to abdicate responsibility from the Victorian
police in certain.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Ways, trying to just lay it all on her.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, And at the end of the day, it really
comes down to Victoria Police who administered her as a
human source. They could have said no.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
They could have just set her intel into the.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Bin and then it would have stopped. They could have
just said no, we're not using you as a human
source and then stops. So you know, there is language
here that almost makes it worded like she has there
is responsibility. She as a trained lawyer, knows that she
was most lightly in breach of ethics, and by working
(11:14):
so closely with Victorian Police, you know, she had to
at least in the back of her mind, know that
the situation was going to reflect poorly on her and
was going to cause some damage to the criminal justice system,
or at least the perception of it. So she would
have had to have known that and therefore hesitate responsibility
for that. Again, the buck could have stopped twice. It
(11:36):
could have stopped with Victorian police. It could have stopped
with the prosecutors. So they had lines of defense if
they had used them, and they didn't. And because they
had so many lines of defense in so much information,
I think when it comes down to it, Victorian Police
is far more culpable than Miss Gobbo, though at the
end of the day she is also you know, let's
(11:58):
call it this, let's call it this seventy five percent
Victoria Police twenty five percent mis googo, there you go.
There's arbitrary mathematics that is going to make sense only
to me and no one else. So that's sort of
where I come down on it. I think the criminal
justice system is always very protective of police, even when
(12:18):
it is quite obvious that police have participated in misconduct,
and they've always got to protect you know, it's like
protect ourselves, protect ourselves, protect ourselves. And that is the
exact problem, you know, led to someone like Miscobo being
used as a human source is that, you know, we
have to be insular, we have to protect ourselves, we
(12:39):
have to be quiet, we have to get the convictions
at all costs. We don't have a justice system. We
have a legal system. So the reason that we have
those distinctions is that we have to work within the
parameters of a set of laws to make sure that
(13:00):
we're not convicting people who are innocent. You know, we
need a good burden of proof, we need to use
witnesses appropriately. And so if you were to turn around
and say, Matthew, what about justice for all of the
victims of the gang land was wasn't it better to
shut it down as quickly as possible on the balance
of probabilities? I totally agree with that statement. Yes, it
(13:22):
is the right moral choice to shut these things down
as quickly as possible. But the justice system can't operate
on good moral choice. It has to operate on legal
precedent and agreed legislation. I'm not saying it's perfect. It's
better than operating the justice system from the perspective of
(13:43):
our hearts instead of our heads under stringent rules, just
how it has to operate. And most people have that
comfort of being able to turn around and say, well, no,
I prefer if it's more moralistic. And everyone says that
because most people have the privilege of never been in
that courtroom. But the day you are in that courtroom,
(14:06):
you do want all those protections for yourself.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah, someone agrees with the death penalty until it's their
neck on the block.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Yeah, it's very interesting. I was discussing that with a
friend of mine the other day and they said, oh,
you know, Matt, you've been in the world of true crime.
How do you feel about the death penalty? And I said,
from a moral standpoint, there's a cold killer out there,
and they kill and kill and kill and kill, and
they continue to kill. I actually think it's more a
(14:32):
more finning punishment that they have to sit in the
cell for the next sixty years. Because I'm an atheist.
I don't believe in heaven or hell. There are people
there who advocate for the death penalty, and they're like, oh,
we're just sending them the hell quicker, which is fine.
You know, if that's your belief system, that's your belief system.
But I don't live in that world, and so I
operate within my own framework, and so I think it's
(14:57):
more finning punishment to leave them in a cube to
sit and think about what they've done for the next
sixty years or however long they live when you arrest them.
The problem with the death penalty, as Holly is mentioned
that is that you cannot one hundred percent guarantee that
you are not going to wrongly convict someone.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Unless they stand up and say, I did it, Just
fucking do it.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You know. In America we have seen time and time
again there have been convictions overturned at the last minute.
People have been exonerated due to DNA evidence. The Freedom Project,
which is a non for profit over in America, estimates
that the people who are sitting on death row at
the moment ten percent are innocent and me personally, and
(15:45):
then again This is where my personal morals come in.
I don't think it's worth killing ten percent of innocent
people putting them through that fear. The ninety percent, who
I believe should be seen in a cell for the
rest of their lives to contemplate what they've done.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Well, even in Australia, look at a Geric Cooks. He
had two people who ended up being arrested for his crimes. Yep,
they worsened us to death. The only thing that saved
them was the fact that we stopped killing people.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Yes, it's a very very good example, Holly. I just
don't think that the criminal justice system is robust enough
to be able to prosecute those sort of cases with
certainty that you are going to arrest the right person
and convict the right person. And there you go. That
brings us full circle, doesn't it. The robustness of the
(16:35):
criminal justice system is not robust enough to protect against
a wrongful death by the state, And so we have
to be as robust as we can when dealing with
human sources, and we have to remember our ethics and
the legal rights of everybody. So there you go. Enough
moralizing for me, Holly. Back to the episode.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The fallout of Nicolo Gobo's name being released public was
immediate and sprawling. Convictions that had seemed final were suddenly reopened,
even of those who were already dead.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
I think what they ended up having to reopen in
the vicinity of one hundred cases.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
They're still investigating how many they have to pull open,
so it could be more. Yeah, because she wasn't the
only one who was a compromised witness. That's what I'm
gonna call. There were a few other people who should
not have been human sources who work human sources. Their
names have not been released, but they are alluded to
within the report.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, and if you'd like some more background on that,
go and check out our series on the Wall Street Stoudents,
where you'll say that one witness was particularly compromised again
and again and again by a very youthful, spirited Victorian
police officer.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Feminism for fucking thanks for the clarification. Could never have guessed.
Carl Williams Associates, the Morans Rivals, and a variety of
traffickers and gangland figures logged appeals, some of which succeeded.
Others filed compensation claims arguing that they or their family
had been denied a fair trial. I would agree with
(18:09):
that the state braced for financial liabilities within the tens
of millions range. For police, reputations were ruined and careers
were cut short. For the legal profession, the affair was
a profound humiliation. E raised unsettling questions about how a
member of the bar could have strayed so far without
an intervention, and how the profession's own oversight mechanisms had
(18:33):
failed to detect it.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, that one is interesting. I mean, do you question
everything your employee does at all times?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Is that when they do something stupid?
Speaker 1 (18:45):
You know, is that level of accountability even possible in
a professional setting? I would argue it's not. I would
argue that Gobbo was most likely meeting with police her
own volition, on her own time. You know, do you
(19:05):
police her lunch breaks? Do you police her afternoons? Do
you police her evenings? Do you police her weekends?
Speaker 2 (19:13):
If your employer is willing to turn around later on
and say, look, I knew that something was up because
she was always partying with the Rands, surely at that
point he has a legal obligation or something like that,
ethical obligation to go this isn't right I should tell someone.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
I mean, I'm not sure in that respect, I would
imagine that many defense attorneys hang out with people that
they shouldn't. But answer us this question. If you're a
defense attorney, I know someone who is a defense attorney,
and you could provide us some inside weekrapin Australia at
gmail dot com. We'd actually love to hear from our
(19:48):
lawyers out there or anyone who has worked in the
legal profession. Maybe you have an opinion on this. Coould
someone who is working as a defense attorney hang out
with their clients.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Personally?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
See there. I mean, I can speak to this a
little bit again. When it comes to counseling. The we
we so we have a lot of rules about fratnization
to the point where should you be accepting gifts from
a client? Right? So that is sort of case by
(20:22):
case basis. So let's say you've had, you know, a
great twelve weeks of sessions or however many long it takes,
and they hand you a basket of baked goods. Right,
you know, Holly, Holly's been seeing there as a client.
She goes, thank you so much, You've helped a lot,
you know, I've baked. I've baked these biscuits for you,
(20:44):
and you could turn around and accept that gift. But
even then it's still sort of iffy, you know. I
to diffuse that situation, I would go, oh, thank you,
do you mind if I share it with everyone in
the office today. You know, that would be great for
our tea room for this afternoon. Thank you so much,
you know. And then if they turn around say, you know,
we get on really well, I'd love to go out
(21:05):
and have a coffee with you because I think we
could be friends already. That's a no, right, That's a
straight up no. And there's nothing wrong with being friendly
with your counselor because you know they come into it
with empathy. Right. That's the whole idea of it is this,
you know, unconditional positive regard for you as a client.
If you don't, it doesn't work. But that means that
(21:28):
once the sessions are finished, that's where the relationship ends,
goes even further than that, it is frowned upon and
will be reviewed. Should you start a sexual relationship with
a client during or after sessions have concluded, Not during sessions,
but I mean during the time you've seen them in
(21:49):
the professional capacity. That's a big, big no no. But
then it's also in the ethics and code from the
Australian Counseling Association that you should even have. You are
required to have a two year gap before starting any
sort of relationship with that client. Right, So that's pretty strict,
(22:10):
you would agree, Yeah, right, and for good reason. I'm
I scored quite highly in ethics, as I've mentioned in
previous podcasts. Thanks because I really like that subject.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Matthew's a real stickler.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
So if counselors who at the moment in Australia, and
this will change in the future, I'm sure, But counselors
are actually technically unregulated. That's why you join up with
licensing bodies to essentially give yourself some sort of sort
of formality for clients to report you in case you're
doing the wrong thing. And it's also good for assuring
(22:44):
clients who you are part of a set of code
and practices. If it's that restrictive for us, you have
to imagine that when it comes to lawyers it has
to at least be equally restrictive. Although I'd be interested
to see a fraternization as part of their code of ethics.
(23:05):
You would have to think it is right.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I mean, you'd think so.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
If it is for me with getting a twelvemonth diploma,
probably it has to for one of the I think
isn't isn't doctors are the hardest or the highest UAI
courses in the country, aren't they. Yeah, so you would
have to assume right, we think so. Anyway, lawyers, let
(23:31):
us know, love to hear from you week Crapanaustralia, gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Your layer also cannot receive any benefit from their relationship
with you other than the usual payment for legal services.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
They have provided.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Would that actually cover and that's from LSBC dot VIC,
dot gov DOTU so that's a Victorian government. Would that
cover things like shouting new drinks when you go out
clubbing with them, shouting new drugs when you go out
clubbing with them. Having a sexual relationship is most definitely
one of the.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I mean, I could sort of see you as a
defense attorney.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
You pay me my fee and that's all I get
out of you. You don't give me books, you don't
give me money, you don't give me drugs, drinks, nothing,
not even a Christmas card. Technically, technically it's true.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
Getting a beer. Well, like, let's say you're out with
your family or whatnot, and they're like, oh, you know,
thank you so much for helping me. I'd like to
shout your round of drinks and they send it to
the table and that's it. I don't necessarily have a
problem with that. I would say it becomes very problematic
when you were spending night after night out with them,
hanging out. Yeah, once you're hanging out in a friendly capacity,
(24:40):
as opposed to just a very quick one off. Oh, like,
here's a beer, Thank you so much for helping me
with my case. Yeah, I think at that point you've
got problems. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
For the public, the revelation was more personal. The notion
that a defense lawyer might secretly collaborate with police struck
at a core expectation of fairness. Even those with absolutely
no sympathy for gangland figures could see the danger. If
privilege could be broken for them, it could be broken
from me. A High Court's judgment had warned of this,
(25:11):
that the confidence in the justice system was not a
luxury but a necessity, and that once eroded, it was
difficult to restore. By the time Lawyer X was revealed,
the damage was already irreversible. The system had compromised its
own foundation that even the guilty were entitled to a
fair defense. Lawyer's duty of loyalty is sacro sainct. The
(25:33):
fallout continues to this day, but the moment of revelation
in December twenty eighteen remains the pivot point, when the
secrecy gave way to public exposure and the scope of
the scandal was laid bare. When the High Court finally
revealed her identity, Gobo retreated from public view, citing threats
to her safety. She later told journalists she felt abandoned
(25:53):
by the very police who had once conforted her assistance
for the story of parentforming is not easily reduced to
betrayal of victimhood. It is rather a cautionary tale about ambition, fear,
and the corrosive effect of blurred boundaries between personal desire
and professional duty.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
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(26:52):
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Why they won't soon forget now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
In the end, Gobo's life became entangled with the very
forces she once sought to master. Her work with police
reshaped astray in legal history, unraveled manger convictions, and prompted
a royal commission. It also left her isolated, disbarred, and villified.
Her career stands as a stark reminder that the law's
integrity depends not on grand ideals alone, but on the
(27:26):
everyday causes of those who worn to serve it.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Miss Gobo sued the state, which is responsible for the
actions of police, in twenty twenty one but the court
suppressed details of her claim until July twenty twenty three.
In court papers, she accused Victorian police of negligence and
high handed, insulting or reprehensible conduct in inducing her to
become a police informer, resulting in damage to her physical
(27:52):
and mental health. Said that when Victorian police approached her
to become an informant, she expressed grave concerns for her
safety due to her connections with the underworld, including risk
of death if confidential information was released. Miss Gobo claimed
that she had only agreed to become an informer after
police officers, including former Commissioner Simon Overland, assured her that
(28:13):
her identity would remain confidential. However, she alleged to the
officers knew or ought to have known, that they could
not protect her from being exposed. Quote from lawyer ex
Nicola Gobo loses compensation claim for damages suffered after informing
on clients and Butler Friday, the thirteenth of June twenty
twenty five. Look, there is an extreme level of manipulation
(28:36):
that has occurred here. I don't think Gobo is, as
I have said in previous episodes. I can't diagnose her
nor would I, but there are several indicators here of
a mental illness that would make her vulnerable towards reckless behavior,
(28:56):
which she has demonstrated multiple times. So she does have
to take some responsibility. But I think it might be
difficult for someone like her to take some responsibility. I'm
not saying all saying some that twenty five percent I
mentioned earlier. I think it's I don't know if she
can quite comprehend her own level of responsibility, and that
(29:19):
in itself means that she was absolutely the wrong person
to be dragged into this, this, this whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
So, you know, is it important scent? If she's easy
to manipulate into it.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
That's very difficult to answer because so this is where
I always lean to and answering this question, Holly, there
are functioning psychopaths, and they are psychopaths who kill. If
one group of psychopaths can be functional members of society,
(29:53):
some even do tiktoks and whatnot, calling them the sociopath,
you know, counselor or psychologist, because they learn the fundamentals, right,
Like they can't have empathy, but they can still be
effective members of the mental health profession.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Right you recognize what they should be doing even if
they can't feel it.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, and they can sort of
get off on the idea of being the best counselor
on the planet. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
There's always it shouldn't. But it does surprise me that
psychopaths are usually very narcissistic.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Well they are, yeah, and it's just for that lack
of The only empathy they have is for themselves. The
problem with the way we deal with psychopaths at the
moment is we keep studying the ones that are in prison,
and the population of psychopaths is actually quite higher than.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
That, which is a form of confirmation bias.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
That's right, exactly, You're one hundred percent right, Holly. So
are roll psychopaths serial killers? No? Are serial killer psychopaths yes? So,
going back to the question that I present, it, good
psychopath be considered not able to be accountable for their
(31:05):
crimes because of their psychopathy? No, I mean no, No,
you're right, you're right. The first time I'll tell you
why you're right? Sorry No, wait, you answered no, don't you? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And then I was going to change it to yes.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Change it yes? And why would you change it to yes?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Because if I can be held responsible for what I
did when I was drunk, then surely he can be
held responsible for something he's been doing his entire life.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
That's definitely on the right track. And my answer is
if a functioning psychopath exists, therefore a psychopath who murders
is culpable of their actions, because there are psychopaths who
are psychopaths who don't murder.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
If one can show restraint, all are potential, no capable
of it.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That is correct, all of them have will power. There
is actually a correlation between low IQ and serial killers,
then high IQ and serial killers and people.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And I assert that that is a form of confirmation bias.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well, no, in this case, because you have people like
Ted Bundy or Edmund Kemper who had quite a high IQ.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
And then you have all the serial killers that haven't
been caught yet so you don't have their data.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
There aren't that many active serial killers anymore, you know
the Yeah, And I would argue that while Ted Bundy
may have had a high IQ on paper, his defense
of himself was one of the worst defenses that I
think has been mounted by someone who had the IQ
(32:39):
to know better and should have hired a lawyer. Right.
So all of that being said, do I think that
if miss Gobo does have some sort of difficulties mentally,
whether she has, you know, a mental health issue, does
that negate her responsibility. It doesn't. It's complicated and should
(33:06):
be considered.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
A reason, not an excuse.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
That's correct. It should be considered as part of a
set of circumstances, and that consideration needs to be taken
into account. You know, if we have someone in the
criminal justice system who is a violent offender, let's say,
and they have never been diagnosed for a particular condition,
(33:30):
there are some mental health conditions that, do you know,
unfortunately exacerbate violent tendency sometimes. And let's say they're diagnosed
in prison, and let's say they're given medication, and let's
say that completely changes who they are. They start becoming
a model citizen. Could they still go to prison for
(33:53):
their crimes, Yeah, they should, because we are capable, We
do have options.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It just means that you actually start looking at the
possibility of parole.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
That's right, because under these circumstances they can become a
functioning member of society again, and that should be how
it was looked at with miss Gobo. If they went
to the point of gin or a diagnosis if she
is indeed mentally unwell. I think she is, and if
they'd gotten that diagnosis, that should have been considered. But
(34:24):
I think, you know, Victorian criminal justicism was in damage control.
What do we do you know, do we paint the
entire Victorian police as corrupt, feckless idiots who have been
participating on both sides of the Gangland Wars, or do
we say it was on miss Gobo's fault you go
find a bus, you know. And I think in some
(34:45):
way she was being set up as a bit of
a patsy too.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
When we started this series, Matthew, you wanted to know
one thing, all of the scandalous sexy details.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Wow wow, that's right to ladies and gentlemen, strap yourself in.
It is after midnight radio. We're going to get all
of the salacious details that you know and love. Make
sure that you were sitting in your comphys of velvet pajamas.
And if you don't have velvet pajamas, we're regular when
(35:22):
the lapsed pajamas. As we pipolate the sensors with heels
of Europhicism and the legal system, this is Ali McBeal
up late, I'm gainer. I'm not impressed with you. Face.
(35:42):
I can't even see your face through the sound shield
and I can I can tell I'm geener. I'm not
impressed face.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Lyrics was suggested to have slept with at least one
of the police officers that later registered her as an informer.
This one was almost almost completely confirmed. There is, of course,
a little bit of denial, because there always is. This
was Tim Argall. There were always rumors that she slept
with some of her clients as well, but when the
Royal Commission into the Management of Police Informants released a report,
(36:15):
there was no substantiated claims of her sleeping with anyone
of consequence over her entire long career, aside from allegedly
corrupt police officer Paul Dale.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Of course, one of her victims was victims, victims, victims,
victim blaming and who wrote the like where did this
come from?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
This particular story.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Lawyer's Weekly, Lawyers Weekly. You'd think that someone would know
better than to defame someone like that.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't think i'd call mister Dale
a victim. Look, let's talk about this a little bit. Actually,
so let's talk about victims and not victims. Right, Mescovo
has been and this has been admitted to by Victorian police.
(37:04):
She has been targeted because she is vulnerable, you know,
health wise, that has affected her mental health. She is vulnerable.
It's in the reports. That's why they went after it. Right,
This person who is in a position of protection I
will protect you from you are a important part of
(37:26):
this and you are answering to me, how is that
person of victim?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Yeah, it's the power and balance that says that he's
the victim, not him.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Absolutely. I'm sorry, but you just can't balance it out
either way, you know. Is she a victim, victim? Victim?
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Victim victim, a victim's victim?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
What's her degree of victimhood? I think it's lighter than
some people, if we could, if we even need to
clarify that, you know, I don't necessarily think you need
to clarify that. I think you know, a victim is
a victim, is a victim. Certainly the police officer who
is acting with in a cour like so he knows
(38:06):
what his duty is, he knows what his code of
ethics is. Why is he a victim? What power imbalance?
Has made him a victim. Did she rape him? Not?
Speaker 2 (38:21):
As far as I can find out, it was definitely
very willing.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Is he a victim in regards to the negative publicity
he got and his career knows diving, Perhaps because of
the repercussions of his associations.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
From his actions. Yes, not his associations.
Speaker 1 (38:39):
You know, I don't see how they could establish him
as a victim. But you know, it is a lawyer's weekly,
so you know, we're not talking about the best people
in the world.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I did search up the owner of all that and
it's owned by an independent media company, so same on them.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Independent media that has connected some way, shape and form
to two conservative media or I'm.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Creative media is the ultimate owner of it. I don't
know who owns that.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
It's definitely not It's not linked to Murdoch or Packers
or any of those that I can say.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
So back to the quote, one of her victims was
mister Dale, a former senior detective of the drug Squad
who at different point stream Teak thousands was her friend,
lover and then client. Quote from lawyer ex and Paul Dale,
the story of dirty tricks, cover ups and corruptions. So look,
if she was represented in an official capacity and she
was also informing on him, yes you get to be
(39:34):
a victim at that point, but only in that regard.
Him sleeping with her was his own choice. Friends with her.
You know, you could even say it was up to
her to turn around and say to him, sorry, we've
been friends and I've slept with you. Therefore I can't
represent you. There are too many ethics here that could
(39:56):
be violated.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You're my hand Laurino slept with you. This is a
third strike.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
I shouldn't go with No, chalk this up to bad
as each other.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
No substantiated claims. Also, aside from the sex takes that
Tony Mockbell tried to blackmail her with in two thousand and.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Eight, Tony Mockbell blackmailed Nicolagobo over sex tapes, according to
her police handlers. As a public inquiry heard, she had
a bond with the drug boss that was beyond the
normal lawyer client relationship. Miss Gobbo, a gangland barrister turned
high level informer, told her police handlers that Mockbell had
tried to blackmail her over the sex videos in two
thousand and eight. According to notes made by the police
(40:36):
officers released by the Supreme Court last month. Quote from
Tony Mockbell allegedly blackmailed Nicolagobo over sex tapes Hemmy Mills
and Chris Felled the lego May first, twenty nineteen. The
age and.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Also aside from the situationship, she alleged between herself and
now Victorian Police Assistant Commissioner Jeff Pope in nineteen ninety
nine or two thousand when he registered her as an informant.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
So she alleged that we are not saying that it
didn't and that is all we will say.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
There's a lot of allegations and very little confirmations, but
we're going to say the politicians in it.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
And here's a quote late October twenty eleven, she Gobbo
made an allegation that for a number of months she
had a sexual relationship with you on and off. You
understand that, ask QC. Christopher Weniki. Yes, mister Pope replied,
you denied that allegation, said mister Winnicki, fully said mister Pope.
While mister Pope denied any affair with the disgrace barrister
(41:37):
to other officers admitted to physical intimacy detective seeing your
Sergeant Tim Argell and Detective Paul Dale. Quote from Victorian
police officer reveals intimate history with lawyer x nine Yews
April tewond twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
You get two confirmations from the men themselves. I mean
it's one of them who are alleged victim.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, I mean, unless you got proof it is, it's
going to be hard to prove that there is this systemic,
the systemic relationships that she is having with Victorian police
officers and with the criminal underworld. So you know, is
Pope simply been guilty by association or are their credibilities
(42:23):
to the allegations. Again, it's been alleged. I don't want
to be sued. That's where I'll leave it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And there was also an alleged relationship with corrupt police
officer Steve Campbell to go along with.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
It, with whom mis Gobo had once had a relationship
and continue to see from time to time. Quote from
Nicolagobo's testimony at the Lawyer ex Royal Commission as it
happened Joseph Sustein and Will Jackson, Tuesday the fourth of
February twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
But aside from all of them, no, all above board.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
No.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
The saga of Lawyer X ultimately revealed not just the
downfall of one barrister, but the power all that follows
when the foundations of justice are eroded. For years, the
uneasy pact between police and Gobbo produced short term victories
against crime, but those gains came at the expense of
the very principles the justice system is meant to defend.
When the High Court finally forced her identity into the
(43:16):
open in twenty eighteen, the reckoning that followed exposed deep
and systematic failures that could no longer be ignored. The
Royal Commission had laid bare the scale of the damage,
making it clear that legal privilege and loyalty are not
abstract ideas, but essential safeguards for every citizen. The scandal
endures as a stark reminder that once trust in the
(43:37):
system is broken, it is painfully hard to restore, and
that the integrity of justice must never be sacrificed, even
in the pursuit of the guilty. Speaking of the guilty,
all of those investigations, prials, retrials are still ongoings, So
we're going to be talking about that again. In the future.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I think you summed it up very well there, Holly.
As I mentioned in the episode, it is so, so
very imp important you maintain the strictest standards for our
legal system. Who protect us, protect me, protects you. There
are lots of how many people on this this podcast
(44:14):
have we covered, Holly, who have been falsely arrested?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
At least three women that I can think of, who
have at least been told later on that their charges
have been dismissed or their convictions have been dropped or
something like that.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And if those protections had been in place for those women,
do you think they would have been prosecuted or convicted? Maybe?
Maybe not?
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Considering the pylons For all three of the people I can.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Think of, Lindy Chamberlain should never have been convicted.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
It was Lindy Chairman Chamberlin, Joanna Leese, Kathleen Felbig and
Kathleen Folbigo. Lee's was never frial by media and she
was questioned heavily.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Yeah, you know, so, so I think in those regards,
you know, you you do have to be careful. You know,
we need these protections. I need these protections for me.
Holly needs them for her and don't ever say I'll
never be in that situation. I'm a good Laura binding citizen.
You just don't know ins. I don't know about you,
but I seek better at night knowing that those legal
(45:16):
standards are being upropelled, because maybe one day I might
need them, and so could you. Well, ladies and gentlemen,
before we let you go, don't forget. There are a
couple of ways that you can contact us. You can
find us on the social media Week crap in Australia.
Just time that into the search bar of your favorite
social media of choice. You can also send us an
email Week Crap in Australia at gmail dot com. We'd
(45:39):
love to hear from you. Keep those story suggestions coming,
and if you work in the legal profession, we'd love
to hear your take on some of the topics that
we've brought up over this three part series. Next week
we are doing another commentary. As long as the recording
equipment doesn't do as dirty.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
It wasn't the recording.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
I tried to protect you. I don't want to throw
you under the bus, but you're thrown yourself under the bus. Yeah,
Holly accidentally deleted the you didn't hit save. Did you
you jumped out of the wrong screen? And yet that's okay,
it was new software and you haven't used it before
a lot, and now you've been practicing by recording backups
(46:23):
of the show, Like right now, have you hit the
save button?
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well?
Speaker 1 (46:27):
No, do you wait till the end? Yeah? I wasn't
going to throw you under the bus, and you threw
yourself under the bus.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
I do that.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
So we are going to take another crack Lake Mungo
celebration of her being spooketuber spooky spooky Tobra. I'm actually
like two reviews behind on Instagram. I've been really naughty
this year. I was very, very on top of it.
Last year. I haven't had that same enthusiasm to like
(46:55):
watch horror movie after horror movie after horror movie last
year because I found the by the end of it,
I was a bit horrid out. No, I didn't go
back and revisit the horror genre for at least six months,
I think when twenty eight years Later came out. This
year was great for horror.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
No, it was let her in game first, wasn't it let.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Me bring her back?
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Bring her back?
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (47:19):
Let me in is?
Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yeah, Well, that's the thing about this year. It's like
this year for horror has been fantastic. Sinners was great,
and then You Had Weapons was fantastic. Twenty eight years
later was fantastic. Twenty eight years later. Is a real
like heart string good for a three quarter. It is
especially one that was made like nearly twenty odd years
(47:41):
after the fact, over twenty years after the fact. But
it's a heart string puller, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
You know there's one scene there that really just oh,
I don't think there was a dry eye in the audience.
So I'd highly recommend that film. Opens was fantastic and
Sinners was great, and yeah, bring her back from the
Philippel Brothers here in Australia is ridiculously good. Sally Hawkins
(48:12):
is fantastic. You will you will both be impressed with
the film and fucking hate me for recommending it, hate
yourself for watching it. It is hard to watch it,
is it?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Really pushes were writ as Matthew started doing his counseling stuff,
so his brain was automatically ticking what was going on,
and it was funny to sit there and listen to
his brain team.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
It was also funny to see Holly revert to a
teenage girl going on a date with her boyfriend as
she continued to hide my shoulder while we were watching
that film. But yeah, my assie horror pic this year
is definitely bring Her Back if you can stomach it.
It is a hard it's in my opinion, they are bordering,
(48:59):
if not at the same level as the French extremist movement,
they're getting close. I think they're really fucking close, don't you.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I don't know. I don't think I think they outdid
Martyrs a little bit.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
No, I don't think so. I think I think it's
closer than a lot of people would think. God, So
Martis is a French extremist film, which is also a
horror movie.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Like a psychological horror movie.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Oh, it is fucking rough. I don't know if anyone
you know these films though, I don't recommend them because
they're violent, Like that's never my intention. My intention is
not to be like violence is cool, man, Like I
get off on all the blood and the gore. Yeah,
I fucking hate that attitude. Like, if you're only watching
(49:51):
horror movies for that, I don't know, man, there might
be something wrong there. I watch horror films because the
scope of what a horror film can be is huge.
You know, you look at just this year alone, you've
had multiple vampire films, a kind of zombie movie that's
(50:11):
more about a coming of age story, Bring It Back,
involves some sort of maybe not even nefarious entity, maybe
a neutral entity. And then you've got like movies like Together,
which is all which was also from an Australian director,
mostly Australian crew. The only thing that wasn't Australian about
(50:31):
that is is Frank Cowen Brie, who are American actors.
You've got a movie coming out very shortly called good Boy,
just about a possession story from the dog's perspective, and
the main character is the dog. You know, horror can
do that. It's just this very you know, intriguing genre
(50:55):
that is very very fluid, and that's why I like
horror films. I don't necessarily like to see people hurt,
but you would have to argue that it is a
great way to create tension, drama, suspense and some genuine acting.
Tony Collette losing a fucking mind in Hereditary, speaking again
(51:16):
of Australians, is just something to fucking behold that movie.
Holy fuck. Yeah, Hereditary is a rough one. Midsomer that
was his follow up. That's a rough one as well.
Lots of great horror movies out there. You know, go
and bracehre Halloween spirit. Don't give me a shit about
being an American holiday. It wasn't originally American holiday. I'm
(51:37):
celebrating my Irish roots. Man. We actually we did Halloween
in London a couple of years ago. That was fantastic.
There was still some Halloween stuff left up that was
still in Halloween season. When we went to Disneyland Paris.
That was really exciting.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
We left Disneyland Paris on the ninth, I believe because
we got there on the far.
Speaker 1 (51:59):
Yeah, and there was still like the scary decorations was
still up, like the scarecrows and Jack Skellington was getting.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
About to watch the transition. It was cool.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
Yeah, from yeah, Halloween, from Halloween to Christmas and in
the night we did never and never Mind. So yeah, shit,
I've sort of got lost here talking about how great
horror films are. So I've done the social media done that.
You can support the show in a couple of different ways.
First and foremost being Patreon. If you want these episodes
(52:29):
early and add free, go to Patreon. We also do
minisodes where we talk about some of the headlines that
happen to grab my interests that we You can also
check out our book series. Volume one to six are
available at in stock at Impact Comics. Think stock on
volume six has gotten a little low, so make sure
you get in there. They make great Christmas presents. We
are headed towards silly season. Some may argue that we're
(52:51):
already in it if you are interested in getting that.
We all have that relative who enjoys a good history
book that isn't too intense.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Do you have a relative that likes war history like
my grandfather? Do you have a relatives that likes True
Climb through Crime like my grandmother. I would like animal
stories like my niece and nephew. Buy our books because
they'll make everybody happy.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
I'm more interested in your True Climb book.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Yeah, that's the story of the rock climbers that fell.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah it is. It is a great little anthology book.
You know. You consider it on a coffee table and
pick it up every now and again read a little
story from it. If you have a relative that is
a big Australiana fan. Our book series will be great
for them. Volume one, two, six are available. If you
buy you know a couple of different volumes. You want
them signed Impact Comics dot com today you as a
(53:46):
place to go. Just shoot them an email when you
make their order and just let them know that we
need to go down there and go sign those books
for you. Certainly happy to do that. So that's the
book series and a last but not leasy. If you
want a weir Crap in Australia T shirt or any
other piece of merchandise said to our read but red
head to our red Bubble and Tea public stores, just
(54:06):
type in weird Crap in Australia to the search engine
and as is our custom, well, it hasn't really been
lately because I've been jumping in every five minutes. We
give Holly the last words.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
So you asked me about wrongful convictions in Australia and
I only gave the women. There were a couple of
men that we have covered, which include Button and Beamish
who were They weren't framed by Cook, but Cook tried
to take credit for the kills and the legal system
was like no they did it. He's like, no, I
fucking did it, and they're like, no, they did it.
Speaker 1 (54:34):
He's like, I'm a good Catholic Irish boy and I
want to commit. I want to I want to make
sure that you know what I did. And they're like, nah, we're.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Not buying it. You just want to make your legacy bigger.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Otherwise we'd be wrong.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Yep, and we don't want to do that. No, we're
never wrong.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
It was a serial killer and I believe Western Australia
as well, who killed a few people and there was
a person wrongly convicted for that. We should actually do
an episode on wrongful con I think it would be
really eye opening for people. And I did it again.
I saw Holley so on a word as well as
That's it from muslies and gentlemen. Please stay safe, be
kind to each other, and we'll see you next week
for more. We crap in Australia. Don't forget. It is
(55:12):
going to be an audio commentary unless someone doesn't have
to say button, and it is going to be the
wonderful horror film at Lake Mungo. You can watch Lake
Mungo right now on your streaming service a choice. I
believe it's on Prime. Otherwise, it's available for purchase on
Amazon Prime, YouTube and physical copies, Umbrella dot com dot
(55:34):
Au and I think Jbhifi does it as well. I
would highly highly recommend you watch this film. If you're
only going to do me a solid and watch one
horror movie this spooky season, please please make it Lake Mungo.
It is a fantastic horror film with a great twist
that you will not see coming. I promise you that
(55:54):
it is one of those examples of the found footage
genre that is actually good. It does so. I really
really love that movie. It's a great piece of Australie
for me. Please go check that out Lakemungo. You can
stream it right now on Amazon Prime and you can
purchase it from any of your movie purchasing places of choice.
(56:16):
I'm thinking, like what, Apple, YouTube, Amazon.
Speaker 2 (56:20):
I thought you googled it while you were talking.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I'm making some assumptions. It's definitely streamable on Amazon.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
I'm really available on Foxtel, Amazon Prime and Google TV.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
There you go go buy it. It's great, good movie.
Well that's it from us. Stay safe, We'll see you
next time. Bye for now, Bye the Weird crap In
(56:52):
Australia podcast is produced by Holly and Matthew Soul for
the Modern Meltdown. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate
and review on your favorite podcatching app.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!