Did Alexander Stephen Martin kill Nicholas Francisco?

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Suki's past on a very tap podcast, so La Criminality the Discute Monk.
What Happens in the Woods is atrue crime podcast. We discuss events that
are often violent in nature. Listenersdiscretion is advised. Well, hello,

(00:43):
and welcome back to a new episode. It's just me and Bryce this time,
not not the whole panel, sosorry to disappoint everybody. Hi,
Bryce, Hello, Hi, Hi, Are you ready? I'm ready?
Are you ready? I am ready? Yeah? What am I ready for
a new episode? Okay? Ithought you had a surprise or something.

(01:07):
I can do that next episode.I don't want to surprise, you know,
I hate it. I hate surprises. What am I ready for?
The show? Usually here like heyhey Rice, Yeah, and catching me
catching me off guard this episode?Yeah? Yeah, all right. Well,

(01:30):
I wanted to start off by thinkingeverybody, I mean, I think
we both probably do. Thank everybodythat caught us on the live on our
WTF live episode celebrating our hundred episode, which was a big deal for us.
Yeah, we were really happy tonot fuck it up too bad.

(01:53):
I mean there's probably like, Ithink, fifteen minutes where nobody could hear
us. Yeah, but you know, live and learn. We've figured out
what we did wrong and it won'thappen again. I'm not going to promise
that. I'm well, I thinkyou know now, like right me?

(02:15):
Yeah, yeah, I'll forget though. Oh okay, well I know,
I guess we'll do a test rightand be like, hey, can everybody
hear us? But it was itwas good. We had a fun time
and it was nice to have youknow, people join and comment. And

(02:38):
we also made an announcement. Sowtfs are growing and expanding and evolving and
they're going to be on Patreon now. So we are starting our Patreon journey
on October eleventh. It will betwo wednesdays a month, and that information

(03:00):
will be coming out this Friday.So today be prepared for some information to
be come in your way. Andyeah, we're super excited about that.
I think it's the natural progression ofwhat we're trying to do and where we're
trying to go with things. Andit is the most beloved of of things

(03:23):
that we do. Yeah, so, and it's Price's favorite. I didn't
say that, Oh you didn't haveto. Everybody knows. Everybody knows you
are here for the WTFS. Whatwhat I'm here for? You honey.
Thanks, I'm here for you.Yeah, you're the wind beneath my wings.

(03:44):
That's right, you can't you can'tsee, but I'm rolling my eyes.
That's not true. Do you haveany announcements before we get to go
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us. Yes, I love that. Hello, thank you? All right?

(04:10):
Any other announcement. We're going toPatreon? Yeah, mm hmm,
okay, that's it. Okay,Well, thanks thanks for the updates.
All right, Well let's get into this case. Let's do it.

(04:32):
Okay. So our case today hassome twists. It's a little twisty turney.
It's a little unusual from what we'vecovered before. And that's that's all
I'm gonna share at this point intime. I will divulge more as we
progress. Okay, We're going backto Seattle in two thousand and eight,

(04:58):
and this is the disappearance of NicholasFrancisco. Have you heard of this?
Okay? Good? So Christine Carterwould first see Nicholas Francisco where they were
both attending school at the Art Instituteof Seattle. She was immediately taken with
him, and it wasn't long beforethey were inseparable. A year after they

(05:24):
began dating, Nick proposed to Christinein this wildly romantic fashion. So they
were near a fountain, like awater fountain, under this space needle where
he proposed, and she states thatshe knew she had met her prince charming
and they had began to plan thiswonderful wedding that was of her dreams.

(05:50):
Their lives continued on, as youknow, Nick began a promising career in
graphic design. They purchased a smallhome, They started a family. They
first had a daughter and then hisson, and it just doesn't get much
better, right, So what arewe here for? Yeah? What aren't

(06:11):
we here for? Well, Iwill tell you I ponder that often good
night. What is the purpose ofyour life? Is that it keeps me
up at night? Sometimes? Doesit? No? Not real? I
don't think so. And I'll tryto get that deep. I think that's
the video games talking. I'm justhere on this spinning rock. Yeah,
in this big vast universe. Okay, are we we're pondering life now?

(06:38):
Well that's kind of fitting because Ithink Nicholas was pondering life no more.
What happens in the woods? Whatwhat's happening in the universe? No,
No, I don't. I don'twant to delve into that. That's too
much. Can call me no.On February thirteenth, twenty eight, twenty

(07:00):
eight year old Nicholas Francisco but yeon the day much like every other day.
According to his wife, Christine,the married couple was living an idyllic
life in Sea Tech, Washington,so he woke up and made breakfast to
eat with their two young children,a daughter, and the sun. This
was a daily event that was specialfor them to do, and after doing

(07:24):
that, he said goodbye to Christine, who was on bedrest pregnant with a
third child. It was confirmed thathe would be home at a decent time
that evening to make special Valentine's Daycookies with their kids. So apparently it
wasn't out of the ordinary that hewould work extra hours, late or early,

(07:47):
and he was usually in constant communicationwith Christine regarding you know what timeline
he was on, Was it goingto be on time, was it going
to be late, etc. Theday went on, Nick called Christine around
six pm to let her know thathe was on his way home from his
job and he would be stopping bythe store to get sugar for the cookies.

(08:11):
Christine expects to see him in aroundan hour, as it would usually
take for his commute home. Sevenpm came and went. There was no
word from him. About thirty minutesgoes by. She can She's kind of
getting irritated, like, what thehell you know, you're supposed to be
home, Where the hell are you. She begins to call his cell phone,

(08:31):
but it's going to voicemail. SoChristine, you know, ends the
evening as she normally would. Shegets the kids ready for bed, the
dinner, they go to bed,and in between this she's calling and leaving
messages for Nick, but he's notanswering the phone. He's not calling back,

(08:52):
and the phone is actually just goingstraight to voicemail at this point,
so the kids are disappointed. There'sno you know, cookie baking as they
were promised. But she gets themto bed around nine pm by herself,
and at this point she's still irritated. There's no communication. He hasn't responded
to anything, but now, ofcourse it's you know, a couple hours

(09:15):
before after he was supposed to behome. She's worried. By tim pm,
she thinks there must be something wrong, right whereas he he's not answering.
She's thinking, is he in aditch? Is he you know,
has he had some kind of medicalemergency, Was there an accident? Any
number of things are going through herhead, and at eleven PM she calls

(09:37):
her mom. She's at this pointkind of hysterical, she's freaking out.
She's not sure what to do,and after that she calls the police.
She's thinking, there just has tobe something wrong. He's never done this
before, it has to be bad. She was told by the dispatch,

(09:58):
the nine on dispatch that if hewas not home in three hours to call
back. Okay, So in themeantime, she's thinking what does she do.
She decides to start calling friends andfamily. She's calling hospitals because she's
thinking maybe he's had an accident andthey just don't haven't contacted her yet.
So things, you know, quicklypulled together and there's search efforts to kind

(10:26):
of start tracing the routes that hewould have maybe taken to come home,
going to the story that he mighthave stopped off at if it was a
normal routine. All of these peoplejust kind of come out of the woodwork.
So friends, family, and membersfrom their church, and the church
pulled up its own interesting articles thatthey belonged to. So that's kind of

(10:52):
a footnote in this story at theend, so I'll revisit that so quickly,
you know, these things are puttogether, and in the meantime,
it gets to be about one o'clockshe calls police again and this time she
reports he's missing. This is definitelyan unusual thing. He would be home
or he would have contacted her bynow, and they do take the report

(11:18):
first thing in the morning. Itis assigned to a detective to start investigating.
Days go on, and the membersin the community, you know,
the friends, the church members,the family members, they are coming out
in droves to help find Nicholas.There's a flyer that's copied and passed out

(11:39):
in several neighborhoods. So they livein Sea Tech, he works in Queen
Anne. The church is helping distributethese flyers and on them they have pictures
of Nick, they have pictures ofhis red Toyota paseo, and they have
information on his last known whereabouts.So the news gets a hold of this.

(12:01):
Christine goes on the local news andshe asks for any and all help
in finding her husband. She isobviously distraught, she's very upset. She's
got two small kids at home,she's on bedrest, she's pregnant with a
third child, and there's just there'sno word. They have no Yeah,

(12:22):
nobody knows what's going on where hecould be. I mean, that's usual
for a significant other that actually caresabout their husband. I mean, so
you think, right, So thecommunity is just showing this overwhelming, like
outpouring of love and support for Christineand her young children. They're donating financially

(12:45):
to her. They're donating like peopleare bringing food, cooking her meals,
as well as clothing and other supportfor the children. During this time,
Nick's employer even got involved in helpingwith the ch They went so far as
shutting down the like the division thathe worked for in the business and allowing

(13:09):
their employees if they wanted to,to go out into the community and help
in the search. They also hireda private investigator to help follow up on
any leads that come in. Policestart looking at, you know, any
and all possibilities, of course,and and the it's the usual emo,
right, who do they look atfirst? Well, they look at the

(13:31):
spouse, they look at family.What is motive? Right? Christine is
brought in for questioning formally, soa police cruiser goes and picks her up
at the house and brings her into the station. She's fingerprinted. Okay,
there's, you know, a lineof questioning that you would expect,

(13:52):
like why aren't you what aren't youtelling us about this? Is? There's
more that we should know. Whywould your husband disappear? What was he
involved in? Do you know ofany contacts that may want to harm him?
You know, do you guys havea life insurance policy? All sorts

(14:13):
of questions, ultimately getting to thepoint of what did you do to your
husband? Wow? That's a greatdetective work. And I mean it,
I see I see why. However, for a pregnant woman who's on bed
rest, she would have to hiresomebody to do something. And as she
tells the detective when he's questioning her, there's no financial motive. They don't

(14:39):
have money. They're living paycheck topaycheck. They're happy, they're fine,
but there's nothing extra. She's actuallystarted an Etsy business where she is selling
like handmade and hands own aprons likeyou know, kind of the fancier aprons,

(15:00):
just to add extra income. Nicholasalso has a second business that he
does freelancing, So there's he doesgraphic design on the side. Yeah,
so I mean that's part of hisjob as well. He works for like
an advertisement company graphic design. Butshe's like, there's no financial I have

(15:22):
no financial gain if he's not here. I can't pay my bills. Like,
there's there's no financial gain. Soafter two and a half hours of
questioning, the detective releases her.There's there's nothing further they got from her,
and they were not ahead any morethan what they were before. You
know, it's exactly several days goby. You know, their people are

(15:46):
out searching left and right, theircanvassing places, and finally there's a break.
So six days later, an anonymoustip comes in that there is a
known location in for the red Toyota. It's been seen, so it's been
found in Federal Way. So thisis south of Sea Tech. I don't

(16:08):
know, maybe about thirty minutes south, I would say of Sea Tech,
about yeah, the five. Soit's parked in like a relatively unused parking
lot that is adjacent to an apartmentcomplex and there's also like some neighborhood businesses

(16:30):
like communion store, gas stations,that kind of stuff. So of course,
you know, police show up,they rope it off, they investigate
out around the scene. They're searchingthe vehicle, they're searching the surrounding area.
They're looking for any signs of struggle. They're looking for any evidence that
has been left behind, anything thatmight tell them what happened to Nick,

(16:53):
how the car got there, andwhere he might be. There's also a
gathering of volunteers that show up todo a search in that area. So
more people show up with flyers.They are canvassing the apartment complex. They're
going door to door, they're askingif anybody's seen him. Then there's a
group of volunteers that go out intothe wooded area that's near the apartment complex

(17:19):
and this parking lot, and theystart searching for any clues body, anything
that might lead to Nick. Andthere's nothing. There's absolutely nothing. The
car is left in good condition,it's just there. There's no signs of
a struggle, there's no signs thatanybody was in the car other than Nicholas.

(17:44):
There is nothing. And again backto score one. So the detective
investigating the disappearance then is able togo and search Nick's office at his job,
and it's at this office that thefirst real clue is found. In
Nick's desk, they find a receiptfor about five days earlier, and something

(18:10):
that is quite unusual for him topurchase, according to his wife, is
listed on this receipt. So detaillisted on the receipt from a convenience store
in Burien, among cough drops,chopstick, and pedialyte, is the purchase
of condoms. Condoms. Yeah,now, I mean condoms and of themselves

(18:34):
not unusual, right. However,when this is mentioned to Christine, she's
absolutely floored because she claims they don'tuse condoms period. Evidence she's pregnant,
right. They spent the last yearapparently trying to get pregnant, So why

(18:55):
would he need condoms. When wecome back from this brink, I will
tell you why. When Nicholas Franciscodisappeared the day before Valentine's Day in two
thousand and eight, his wife Christinecould never have imagined just how twisted the
story of his disappearance would become.There are numerous searches and efforts to find
Nicholas. Over the course of abouta week, there was a website that

(19:19):
was created, Find Nicholas Francisco dotcom, and this was to help with
any leads as they came in andto kind of centralize efforts. But the
only lead they have comes from aconvenient store receipt from several days earlier to
his disappearance. Upon finding the receiptto purchase condoms from his office desk,

(19:44):
there were more questions left unanswered.Christine began to go back over memories and
things that didn't seem right, likeall the times that he would work overtime
and she would call and it wouldsound like he was in a bar.
He would kind of brush that offand say, oh no, no,
no, I'm in the kitchen.Somebody's making food and they're talking. She

(20:04):
just began to revisit some things thatdidn't sit right with her. She also
began to take a closer look atNicholas's laptop that apparently he never left out
of his sight. I read ona forum, and let me tell you,
there are group chats and forum chatsfrom this time that are still up

(20:30):
left and right. Everywhere. Everytime I turned around, I was being
directed in my research to a forumchat, and some of it was helpful
and most of it was not.But there was mentioned that he didn't go
to the bathroom without this laptop.Really, yeah, that's a little weird,

(20:51):
a little weird. I mean,I get it, like we all
probably are guilty of taking our phonesinto the bathroom in this day and age,
prints same difference. I mean,I get it, but I think,
yeah, I think maybe the laptopis just a little more odd,

(21:11):
Like I don't know, even aniPad or a tablet is pushing it a
little bit. I mean, Iyeah, I don't I don't know.
I could see where you would thinkit's odd, especially since in two thousand
and eight our phones didn't really dowhat they do now. No, but
by a laptop is I don't know, because our phones are basically many laptops

(21:37):
now and we take those easily intothe bathroom with us or you know,
but even in two thousand and eight, like Wi Fi wasn't that great either,
No, not really. So it'sstrange. I mean, it's it's
strange, and it does lead youto think, well, do you not
trust to leave your laptop out orare you just that adhd that you can't

(22:00):
go and take a ship without havinglike you can't read a book or I
don't know what are you doing.It's just and I say that with no
like, I'm not really trying totalk down to people or say that in
a rude thing, because I amguilty of needing to I don't know,

(22:21):
I read something or whatever when Igo into the bathroom or take even take
a shower. I watch YouTube videos, So I mean, it's whatever,
but I don't know. I guessfor the time, it does kind of
speak to the time where, yeah, you're taking a laptop into the bathroom
with you, I don't know.So she is able to find some things

(22:45):
on the laptop that are definitely thingsthat make her question more. She was
able to find records of a bankaccount that she was not aware of,
and she was also able to getinto his PayPal account, which showed that
he had been depositing, like transferringmoney from PayPal into this account that she

(23:11):
did not know from his paycheck fromhis you know, his daytime job as
well as freelancing job, and hewas funneling it into this secret bank account
without her knowing, which you know, is upsetting given that she is struggling

(23:33):
to figure out how to feed them, and this jackass is you know,
got secret money that he's not sharingthat if you're supporting a family, would
be really nice to support the familywith. Christine is busy looking at things
at the home after this that youknow she could look into to try to

(23:55):
find more information out, like whatelse was he hiding, because obviously this
is now a deep dive, right, the police continue this deep dive into
Nicholas's personal life and what they foundfrom this bank account and records are more
shocking. So initially they had requestedto look at phone like his cell phone

(24:21):
records, and that was denied becausethere was no evidence of a crime.
And after finding this secret bank account, they start to look at the charges
that are on this account, andwhat they find makes the condoms look like
candy in comparison, he looks like, you know, he was a Mormon

(24:44):
out doing the good work and goingdoor to door. So Nicholas had been
leading a double life. And whenwhen I say this, it's not again
what judgment. People do, whatpeople want to I don't care, I
really don't. It doesn't matter tome unless it's harming somebody And that's where

(25:07):
I am offended for that person.But whatever people choose to do behind their
doors of their home, I givea shit. I don't care. Just
don't hurt people and don't lie aboutthings. So Nick was into kink.
He loved kink. It didn't takemuch to find charges in the secret bank

(25:29):
account that showed that he paid fora membership of an adult club in Seattle.
At the time, this club wascalled the Wet Spot. It has
since changed its name. They alsofound that he frequented a bar in kint
that was a known place for swingersto meet up. There were several charges
for online dating sites or hookup sitesthat he was you know, a part

(25:53):
of. Yeah. On those sites, Nicholas advertised that he was looking to
have some fun. He was thebondage swing, you know, threesomes,
other fun sexual activities. He alsolisted that he was open to bisexual relationships,
so both men and women he wasdating and hooking up with. I

(26:15):
don't know if he would call thatdating, but he was hooking up.
I forgot how wild the internet wasin two thousand and eight. No,
it really was. I mean,we think it's wild now, but this
is just people will find any avenueto explore what excites and interests them.
And the Internet was just this,I mean, the worldwide of opportunity.

(26:41):
Oh yeah, for all sorts ofnonsense, good and bad. You know,
because you have to imagine two kidsthat before it was all newspapers and
maybe magazines right now it's you know, it was like postings on on yeah,

(27:03):
forums and boards, right and evenuh what was that like MSN Messenger
right aol aim Yeah, yeah,Yahoo instant Messenger like all yeah, and
and I mean forums are we wetalk about keyboard warriors nowadays, you know,

(27:25):
and like people on social media beingso comfortable behind a screen and talking
shit. Forums were the early partof that. Yeah, like that this
is nothing new. That's happening now. It was happening then, just in
a different way. Yeah, whichwas weird too because a lot of the
forums were members only, right.Yeah, you would pay a monthly fee

(27:49):
to talk shit about other people.It's oh yeah, you had to pass
up like a rigorous like they wouldcheck up on you. Yeah, yeah,
it's it's this actually reminded me alot of that kind of stuff when
when the Internet was still you know, everybody was really exploring the possibilities of

(28:11):
what can we do with this?And it definitely led to a lot of
trouble for a lot of people.So on the stating site that he was
on one of them, he youknow, says that he's willing to meet
up for casual sex with people.There are several sites where there are photos
of him. They're somewhere he's likenude, half nude. He also states

(28:34):
that he's willing to be in videos. I mean, you name it.
He was into it. He wasgood, he was good with it.
All of this, as you canimagine, was a complete shock to his
wife. So she says, andthe problem with a lot of this is
we only have her account of things. And you'll know why later. She

(29:00):
claims that she never saw this comingand she had no idea. Apparently he
was really good at at keeping allof this a secret, because there are
friends and family that have given interviewssince the story came out that state that
he had them fooled, that theyhad no idea that he was living this
double life, that he was interestedin anything of that. They were a

(29:23):
part of this church community that isa large church community. It's it's considered
a mega church and it has itsroots in Seattle, and there's a lot
of controversy surrounding this church, butit's not a small church. It eventually
branched out into several different churches.Like the actual physical buildings, they would

(29:48):
have attendance in the tens of thousandsto their services, and you know,
by either remote or in person.And these members that knew him, that
they had been a part of thischurch for years, they were all completely

(30:11):
unaware that this was an issue,that this was what he was doing,
and it was just this complete shockto everybody. Apparently just months before Nicholas
Francisco's disappearance or I'm sorry after sojust months after, Christine files for divorce.

(30:32):
So this is relatively quick, afterall of this comes to light,
you know, his double life,she files for divorce. That's pretty quick.
It's very quick. And I can'tsay that I don't understand why she
did that. I think given said, she must have known about this.

(30:57):
I feel like she maybe had someclues and neither she was in denial or
it was it was something that shewasn't I don't. I don't know.
She's not willing to admit to herselfmaybe, But I also can see if
she honestly was clueless the entire timeto be such a quote unquote god fearing

(31:26):
couple that type of lifestyle that youknow, he the things that he would
be interested in would be a completeopposite of what a church would tell you
is good and normal for you todo. Everything else would be a sin.
So I could see where she wouldwant to remove herself and remove herself

(31:48):
quickly. I can also see whereshe's going without financial support at this point.
It's you know, it's whatever publicassistance they get her in the kids.
He has student loans that she isat responsible for because she co signed
on him. They have a housepayment, they have a car payment.

(32:09):
You know, these things don't stopbecause you can't find your husband. So
she I think financially it was mademore sense to remove herself in a state
where it's community property state. Ican see also where if she truly had

(32:31):
no knowledge of what he was doing, and she was so disgusted by it
that it was the next logical thingto say, I want to divorce.
I don't want to be associated withhim in any way, shape or form,
regardless if we find him or don't, or whatever the outcome is so
I can't really say that it's I'msurprised that she did that. She cites

(32:57):
willful abandonment that continues for a periodof time, as well as acts of
domestic violence and an assault or sexualassault that causes grievous bodily harm or fear
of such harm as the reasons forthe divorce. Now that's where I'm confused.
And I've read a lot on theseforums of conversations back and force,

(33:21):
well, why would she do thisand what was that? I read any
of the news articles that I couldget my hands on, and I really
don't understand the choice. I understandthe willful abandonment because obviously at this point
they know he's leading a secret life, so he probably has just bounced.

(33:43):
I'm not sure that I understand thedomestic violence or sexual abuse or assault aspect
of what she cites. And Iread that the reason probably was that it
was advisement from her lawyer in orderto be able to get full custody of
the children and cut all financial tiesso that she would not have to have

(34:08):
anything to do with him. Ithink that that's probably the most logical,
because there's no mention anywhere at anytime that he was abusive towards her,
That does not mean that he wasn'tI can't presume to know. Again,
we have her side of things andthat's about it, because there's there's nothing

(34:34):
else to go on. But there'sbeen no filing of reports. Nobody has
come up and said, this iswhat's happened in the past he was abusive
to her anything. There's been nothingthat states that, no evidence of it,
so there had to have been somereason behind that sighting in the divorce

(35:00):
decree. However, her divorce isapparently granted. I don't know how you
can do that when somebody's missing andalmost presumed dead. He hasn't been presumed
dead yet and he's not there tocontest it, so I'm not sure how
that works. I mean, Iknow that you have to like post things

(35:20):
in a paper for a certain amountof time. I guess if they don't
respond, you just get to proceed. I don't know, especially if it's
been proven that he's abandoned the family. I guess I don't know. In
the meantime, the police did getaccess to his phone records, and yeah,

(35:42):
there's there's many phone calls that aremade to many different people in regards
to like sexual activity. It's itjust confirms more the same basically. So
keep in mind during this time,of course, Christine is pregnant with her
and Nicola is third child. She'son bedrest, she's not working. At
thirty four weeks, she goes intoearly labor and she needs an emergency C

(36:07):
section. She does welcome the sonto her. You know, little family
that's a little broken now, andyou know she's giving birth. She's going
through this entire ordeal. She's alone, he's nowhere nothing. Due to her
financial situation, the house is eventuallyforeclosed on her and the kids move into

(36:30):
a studio apartment in a basement,and she is dependent upon public assistance to
get by. She begins to tryto pick up the pieces of her life
and move on. And it's aboutthis time that she is remarried to an
associate pastor at a local church.I don't believe it's the same church that

(36:50):
they were a part of, herand Nicholas. So you at this point
are probably asking, well, whatthe fuck is going on with this dude?
Right? Where is Nick? Yeah? And how'd she move on so
fast? Yeah? I don't reallyhave an answer. As to why she
moved on so fast or how shewas able to move on so fast,
but it is what it is.In two thousand and nine, Christine received

(37:15):
a letter from Washington State Division ofChild Support stating that they had some money
for her. Oh wow. Herfirst question was from who? And it
turns out that Nick was alive andwell. He was living in sunny southern
California. Okay. He had thestupidity to open a bank account in his

(37:38):
real name, and it was flaggedbecause of the divorce proceedings, and there
was a degree for child support thatwas out. So this money was taken
and it was sent to her inthe form of a child support payment.

(38:00):
He then, once he realized thatthis money was gone from his account,
he went to the bank and herequested that it be returned. Due to
heart chip, he could not affordto pay that. Okay, they did
not do that, of course,Yeah, that's that's not how that works.

(38:22):
So he closed the account and heagain disappeared without a trace, only
to be found not too long afterthat by the private investigator who was able
to get in touch with a localWhile there was a national news and there

(38:47):
was a local news outlet that wentand contacted him, So the national news
outlet went first. They tried totalk to him as he was going to
his car from his apartment, andhe didn't give any acknowledgement to the conversation.

(39:07):
He actually yawned, got into hiscar and said not a word to
anything. The reporter was asking ifyou would you know, showed him pictures
of his children and said, wouldyou like to know what's going on with
your kids? How could you leaveyour kids? Are you not wondering what

(39:30):
has happened since you disappeared? Whatabout all the people who assisted in searching
for you? Are you thankful?Do you have any words he got?
He gave nothing. He absolutely hadnothing to say and got in his car
and drove away. So then notlong after that, a report a reporter

(39:50):
from k I R O. Sakiroseven here in Seattle, Monique ming Lavin,
Her and a small crew went downand they found out that he is
now living under the name Alexander StephenMartin. He was able to change his
name legally and get a birth certificatein California with that name. Okay,

(40:13):
she was able to find him outsideof his apartment and she called him by
his name. She you know,started to ask him several questions as well,
and again he yawned, and basicallyhe said he just wants to be
left alone. So she asked,you know, do you miss your kids?
And he replied, it's not myproblem. And he stated that he

(40:40):
left to reset his life. Heneeded a change and it was a decision
that he made and he went withit and all he wants is to be
left alone. Okay, So heclaimed that the people who searched for him
helped in the search, it wasfor selfish reasons. They do that because

(41:01):
they want to feel like they're important. It was very it was exactly what
I expected watching the video. Andthe only way that you can now watch
this video is actually by paying towatch an episode of something called My Life

(41:22):
is a Lifetime movie and it's basicallya reality show. And again this is
all from Christine's perspective on this show, because he still to this day is
unwilling to discuss anything with anybody.He will not discuss any reasons, he
will not talk about, you know, his life, and he's not in

(41:44):
I mean, we're not entitled tothat information. If anybody is his wife
and his kids are, but hewants nothing to do with them his ex
wife, I should say, andhe's made it clear that he wants nothing
to do with his children. Heactually stated to the reporter from KIRO seven
that he it's better off that theythink he's dead. Okay, yeah,

(42:08):
So the links there are in theseforums, in these chat groups, people
are leaving links left and right tothese interviews that you know, the first
interview that he did with the nationalnews chain, I don't even know who
it was because I never could findit and I couldn't. You cannot follow

(42:28):
any of these links. They areall invalid at this point. So even
the ones for the local Seattle channel, they all pull up a page that
says four h four not found.So any news related video or interviews that
he has done, and anything thatshe has done Christine news related interviews are

(42:52):
gone. They are no longer availableonline. However, I was able to
see clips by watching the My Lifeis a Lifetime movie that you can find
on Amazon. It was a dollarninety nine to watch the episode, and
that is the only clips that Icould find of this interview that he did
with the news reporter from Seattle.And it's not even the whole thing,

(43:16):
it's just whatever clips they put inthere. But like I said, all
of the rest of it is Christine'sperspective. We get nothing from his perspective.
He won't talk, so she dueto this man. So it's really
interesting that you say that because alot of the forums do that, and
I don't I feel like that.I don't. I don't know. I

(43:37):
feel like that's kind of a ridiculousstatement to make. Though, honestly,
why what would she have done toturn this man bisexual? Well could she
possibly have done? Even if sheis the worst wife ever and he hated
his life and he hated his kids, get a divorce and move on.
Ye, why do you need todo this Like that's I don't know's it's

(44:00):
almost along the lines of victims shamingto me, like, I don't know
if she did something or didn't dosomething. I don't know what their marriage
was like they could have been.They could have had a horrible marriage.
And like I said, all wehave is her perspective of things. That
they were so in love that theyyou know, they were inseparable from the
time that they started they first metand they fell in love and it was

(44:22):
just this fairytale thing and you knowit's so romantic. That's her perspective of
things. Obviously he has a differentperspective and he's not talking. Yeah,
but I don't know what she wouldhave done to make it this way,
you know, I don't know's itseems it was. It was just really

(44:45):
shitty to read all of these comments. People were calling him an asshole,
people were calling her an asshole.And there's probably truth in the middle somewhere,
right, but it was just thedis discussions and yeah, maybe you
can say that it was rightfully,like you, she invited these people into

(45:06):
this because she made this website,you know, find Nicholas Francisco dot com.
And that opens it up to peoplewho are trying to help that are
now invested in this. And allof a sudden, the guys at Dick
Wad and he's living in California,he's alive and well, and everybody's been
up here, you know, merelyeating and surviving because they're so distraught,

(45:29):
or they don't she doesn't have moneyto feed people. You know. It's
I just don't I don't know.I don't know how I feel about it,
And I think there's actually a littlebit of something that people are not
thinking about and discussing, which isif he truly was living that lifestyle that

(45:52):
you know, what they would consideran alternative lifestyle, that's what they used
to phrase it as, and that'struly what he identified as as a bisexual
person who was into these types ofsexual experiences. He was not able to
live that lifestyle. He was notable to live the way that he wanted

(46:12):
to live. And there's a littlebit of I don't want to say sympathy
that I have for him, butI guess if you think that this is
all you can do to be ableto go be free and live that lifestyle,
live the way you want to live, it's just really a shame that
it had to hurt so many otherpeople, you know. I don't know.

(46:37):
I have a lot of thoughts onit, and I've been chewing it
around for a while now because Ididn't actually know that I wanted to cover
this case. It's not our usual, Like I said, there's no murder
involved. Nobody's been physically harmed thatwe know of. I mean, in
some respect, he did, right, Yeah, Yeah, I just I

(47:00):
don't know. I get this weird. So you said the website find Nicholas
Francisco. Yeah, and I wentto it. It doesn't go to it
anymore. No, it's just pinktheology. Yeah, and that's her.
She turned it into a website whereshe had forwards to Christine Carter. Yeah,
which is just a weird. Idon't know. I don't know religion,

(47:24):
just no, and and she's veryreligious South Carolina. I'm putting it
out there. But yeah, she'schanged her last name. But this is
all about women. I think Carterwas her maiden name. So I don't
know what her married name because shewas she re married. I don't know

(47:45):
if she says that. Yeah,she's moved to South Carolina where her husband
and her and their children. Yeah, and so I think she has four
children now. Yeah, so threeare Nicholas is and one is with her
her current husband. But it's justa yeah, So to touch on the

(48:08):
religion aspect of things, it's it'snot really involved in this case, but
like I said, it kept comingup as a side note on these forums,
on these chat groups and even insome of the news reports that they
were part of a mega church that'scalled Mars Hill. And I not being

(48:31):
from Seattle was not. I'm notaware of this, but it has its
own Wikipedia page, which is interestingthat a church that's not a national or
worldwide known church would have a Wikipediapage. But there's a lot of controversy

(48:57):
surrounding this church. It really isno longer a church. It's it kind
of disbanded because the main pastor whofounded the church was accused of ungodly and
sinful conduct. That's that's as muchas as will be like listed, and

(49:17):
that could range from a multitude ofthings. But I found an article,
I found actually three articles that Iwill link to a former member of this
church, and she she really saidit took her a long time to remove

(49:37):
herself from what happened in that church, and that it she was basically comparing
it to a cult, and andthose are her words. Again, I
have no prior knowledge of this church, and this was the first time I
had heard of it. But fromher articles, there was statements made that,

(50:00):
you know, there was a lotof the like the virginity packed culture,
premarital sex outside relations were absolutely absolutelynot that purity culture that I grew
up in, and I know Iknow firsthand what that looks like. And

(50:22):
she was saying that, you know, as she became part of this church,
she the women were definitely second ratecitizens in this church community. They
were not looked at as you know, you are subservient. You you're here
to serve your husband and that's yourwhole life, intents and purpose, and

(50:45):
that's it. And it is somethingthat I could see where if you know,
that might have affected Christine and Nicholas'smarriage. I don't know, but
it was really interesting to read thisarticle. She states that there was actual
rumors of physical abuse from this pastor, that the other pastors were afraid of

(51:10):
physical abuse from him, and theyactually were going to like excommunicate him basically
before he resigned. The issue andwhy it's still controversial is he just left

(51:30):
and started a new church in Arizonaand just went on about it. So
like Christianity today has articles on thisman and these churches that he started.
There's other podcasts that you can findon Apple I'm sure Google too that talk

(51:50):
about Mars Hill Church. And againit is it is so unusual for one
church that is not like the Catholicorganization or you know, just to have
this much recognition from this area.It's weird. Yeah, I've always had
a problem with organized religion is becauseit turns in and it's morphed into something
like you know, everything that's goingon with the Catholic Church, everything that

(52:14):
goes on with like these megachurches.You know, there's always some kind of
scandal that's going on, and it'sit's not because of religion per se.
It's because of what the people doin the religion behind the word of God,
and it's it's the power grab.It's the power grab and the feeling
that I'm untouchable, Yeah, becauseI'm behind God. And it's it's that's

(52:39):
the problem I have with the organizedreligion, any organized religion. Yeah,
I agree, and I think Ithink whether it played a part in their
marriage or not, the fact thatthey were apparently so heavily involved in it
had some lasting effects. And asyou said, she's still deeply religious,

(53:01):
and that's apparent from her website thatshe converted from the Fine Nicholas just for
Christine Carter. It's just it's alittle weird to me, is all.
And yeah, yeah, I meanI get it. A woman's scorn that
would piss me off too. Hejust left, but it was it's just

(53:22):
like that's just a weird transition.I get it. She needs to make
money. Well yeah, I meanshe whether whether she is, you know,
using that in this way of well, I'm going to turn my story
into I'm going to capitalize on mystory. I don't know, it's I'm

(53:45):
a bitch. I'm I probably woulddo the same thing, only mine wouldn't
be coming from a religious thing.I wouldn't. I wouldn't be. But
yeah, fuck you, I'm goingto make some money off this. I'm
going to sell your story to whoeverwe'll put it on there. I'll make
money. I gotta feed my kids, you know, I gotta live.
You don't want to live with me, that's fine, whatever, but I

(54:07):
got to take care of me.Just the whole divorce thing, and it
makes me believe that like there wassomething way more in depth than you know,
everybody was leaving leading or even newbecause the the divorce was just really
weird in itself. Like a coupleof months afterward, you mean, tell
me, she didn't know, right, I think, and this is just

(54:29):
me. I was like, yeah, he told her, Yeah, I'm
bisexual, and she was like,you know, the religious part was like
get the fuck out of here.Center didn't make him feel good at all,
and he just fucking left, youknow what I mean. Like,
honestly, I think if that washis whole life, her and you know,
them always being together, and thenall of a sudden, she's like,
you know, you're fucking sinner.I could see, you know,

(54:52):
him just bouncing, but you know, you have nowhere to turn, you
have nowhere to go, and thenthe only person that you love is like,
get the fuck out of here yourself. It's disgusted. Yeah, yeah,
And I mean she even used thosewords like it was disgusting. I'm
like, that's that's great. Youdon't have to agree with what other people

(55:13):
choose to do with their life andhow they choose to seek enjoyment or companionship.
You don't have to agree with it, but you don't get the right
to judge that. If you believein God and you're Christian, then Christ
judges God judges. That's what theirjob is. Your job is to show
love and compassion as you were guidedto do in the Bible. And I

(55:37):
feel like this is a side effectof that mega church, you know what
I mean? Well, and that'sthat was the thing is I was kind
of going to get to that pointwhere I think that reading that article,
and it was three articles that theperson wrote for for this like online magazine,
she stated that she eventually was movedup into because if you're part of

(56:04):
a church, you're expected to volunteer, right, she would be part of
groups that would provide counseling, purecounseling, and given that it was purity
culture and that's what they practiced andthat's what they expected to be preached.
I can imagine that maybe something cameout and maybe Nick she found something that

(56:28):
Nick was trying to hide, andthen it came out that hey, he'd
been doing this stuff behind her back. And because I think it was like
a year into their marriage, wasthe first time that he stepped out from
the marriage. Maybe they were involvedin like counseling with the church, and

(56:51):
it just got to the point wherehe was not able to suppress what he
truly wanted to be doing and howhe truly wanted to live his life.
And that's what they expect you todo. It's like conversion therapy. They
expect you to just shove it downand not feel it and not answer to

(57:12):
it. Because that's sin and youknow, and just live your life and
put this facade on. And Ican see where if that's the case,
that he was highly resentful and Iwouldn't want to speak about it either,
And I wouldn't really want to haveanything to do with my kids because they
were a product of something that youwere not happy in. And I get

(57:36):
that. So I think I thinkthis was just so interesting on so many
levels because there is so much thatis not said, and there's so much
speculation on it. They it's it'sso wild. Now, it's just this

(57:57):
wild tale, like urban legend kindof tale, you know. But then
again, like that's what it is. If you don't tell a story,
people will make their own conclude.Yes, you know, we wouldn't have
a podcast then, I mean,yeah, it's yeah. I mean this
definitely was a psychology like a psychologicallook at why somebody would do something like

(58:20):
this and what you're like, whatleads a person to do this? Whether
you know what did she do orwhat did he do? But I don't.
I just was like, you know, I wasn't expecting when I read
the article, the first article thatI found, for it to wind up
like this I was thinking, Oh, they're going to find his body somewhere,
right, They're going to find thecar, They're going to find the

(58:42):
body. No, No, notat all, not at all. So
apparently though, he still is notowning up to the child support. So
at this time he owes well overa hundred thousand dollars. There's somebody,
obviously not him. I don't knowthat she would do it. I'm not
I'm not even going to speculate onwho did it. But there is a

(59:04):
LinkedIn profile that I saw a screenshotof, and basically it's it's him with
his new name and living in SanFrancisco, stating that he is basically a
disgusting human piece of shit and ifyou support him under the table, you're
supporting him not paying his child support. Yeah, but to go as far

(59:30):
as LinkedIn, I don't know,like you're you're really it's so far ched,
Like I just, I don't know, you're not going to get the
child support move on? I don't. But then again, I don't know
that she had anything to do withthat. I don't know. I can't

(59:51):
imagine that he What's funny is youcan still go to his X or Twitter
whatever, I don't even know whatto call it anymore. And he links
to these things, so he's linkedto the LinkedIn he's in his feed has
put a link and it's pinned tothe top. He hasn't posted since like

(01:00:14):
two thousand and ten or something.It's a link to LinkedIn. There's a
link to the My Life is aLifetime movie, and there's also a link
to his interview with Kuro seven butor Cairo seven whatever they call it account.
I don't know who made it forhim, maybe or you know what

(01:00:34):
I mean, it's someone that maybethere's other postings though, so I don't
know, but it's it's linked there. If that's truly his his Twitter or
whatever that it's just it's unusual,so yeah, maybe it is. Maybe
it is a troll account, justlike the LinkedIn page is a troll account.
I don't know, but I thoughtthat was odd. I also find

(01:00:59):
it very odd that you cannot evenYouTube you cannot find that those two reporters,
like the video from them trying toconfront him, you cannot find it.
And and some of the listings forlike news articles are gone as well,

(01:01:27):
So it is very interesting. Idon't know if maybe she's done that
to control the narrative, or orhas he requested that those be you know,
removed for his privacy. Oh fuck, no, he's he wants nothing
to do with any of it.No, I mean he doesn't, so

(01:01:51):
I don't know. Yeah, that'sour that's our case this week, this
episode, it wasn't interesting at all. Oh no, no, not at
all. Well, shit, I'msorry that I have bored you this whole
time. All right, I'll dobetter next time. All right. Well,

(01:02:13):
we would love to know your thoughtson this. Please let us on
Instagram. We'd love to hear it. Yeah, because I think this one
invites a lot of conversation. Berespectful, but I think it invites a
lot of conversation and fuck that gocrazy, don't do that. I don't
want to have to moderate. Andbecause I'm not nice, I'll just be

(01:02:34):
I'll be grouchy about it, allright. Well, as usual, we
appreciate you listening, We appreciate allthe support. We had really fun doing
the live and we can't wait toshare the WTFS on Patreon with you guys.
So until next time, you guys, be kind to one another,
Stay safe, stay out of thedamn Woods and we'll see you next time.

(01:03:00):
Hi guys,

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