April 11, 2025 • 33 mins
In Season 3 Episode 38 the girls talk about Ax Murders – can you believe it’s taken 3 seasons to get here? – with Gemma kicking it off by telling us the tale of the Ax Man of New Orleans and Holly then going on to chat us through the South African murderer Henri Van Breda.
Shoutout for Superfan Mel who is having a very busy apocalypse.
A translator is brought in for Holly’s case but she totally ignores it and changes the first name pronunciation repeatedly throughout the story….as per usual, the girls share a brain when it comes to New Orleans, Gemma doesn’t understand Jumaji, Holly delays the start of segment two due to cookie crumbs and congratulations are given. To themselves. Well deserved.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who has given up on timers because nobody looks at them and why does he bother and like, do they even know how to tell time or have any idea what a timeframe is OMG.
Gemma edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Producer Craig who is now suffering PTSD symptoms from ticking clocks.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Shoutout for Superfan Mel who is having a very busy apocalypse.
A translator is brought in for Holly’s case but she totally ignores it and changes the first name pronunciation repeatedly throughout the story….as per usual, the girls share a brain when it comes to New Orleans, Gemma doesn’t understand Jumaji, Holly delays the start of segment two due to cookie crumbs and congratulations are given. To themselves. Well deserved.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who has given up on timers because nobody looks at them and why does he bother and like, do they even know how to tell time or have any idea what a timeframe is OMG.
Gemma edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Producer Craig who is now suffering PTSD symptoms from ticking clocks.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Big gal if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hiilli, Hi Gemma. How's it going?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's going? Twenty twenty one is a trash fire? So yeah,
I mean, we haven't spoken about how badly twenty twenty
one is going at all.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
No, we haven't yet.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
No, I mean America, I don't know, lost their minds again,
and then we're in another lockdown. There's another variant of
this fucking virus that won't die a horrible death. There's
now the South American one.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Creat told me about this yesterday.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yeah, So, I mean, I guess it's good to have choices.
We have three to choose from now. So yeah, twenty
twenty one, folks, Jumanji.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Oh, don't do this to us.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Anyway, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah? I thank you good, desperately hoping not for Jumanji.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
No, Jumanji is good. You say it and then it ends.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Oh yeah, I suppose. And this past week was my
first week back at work after being off at the
start of the new year, and it feels like I'm
being cheated only having two days off at the weekend.
I feel like it's not enough anymore. A weekend is
not long enough. It needs to be at least twice
as big it does?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
It does? We should only work two days a week.
That should be the role.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, so we are which murderer?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Oh yeah, that's what I was forgetting. Yes, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's something that we have to say at the start
of every episode.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We wanted to do a quick shout out for one
of our super fans, didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
We Oh my god, I almost forgot again. What is
wrong with me? Oh? Do you want to do it?
Or do you want me to do it? You do it,
I'll do it. Okay, So super fan Mail, who's my mail?
She shared us on her Instagram story, which she always
does because she's a super cool check and she always
shares us. So thank you, Meil. My sympathy is right
(02:12):
now because she is homeschooling two young children and working
and her house is being renovated. So I feel like
she needs a lot of alcohol and podcasts.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That sounds like a good coping strategy.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I support it, especially with everything else that's going on
for her. My goodness, mel wat trip her.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah she is.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So this week we are discussing axe murderers. I'm going first.
My case is quite long because it's the axe man
of New Orleans. Ooh, yeah, and I got all this
information for very well informed Wikipedia article. Yeah, that's everything.
(02:54):
I didn't have to go anybody else from information.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The case is really well known, but I didn't know
that much about it, to be fair, before I started researching.
I just don't know if it's like as infamous as
like a lot of the other unsolved murders out there.
And I don't know why, because there's so much I
know involved.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I know, I've definitely listened to some episodes on other
shows about it, and I've read up on it. It's yeah,
it's a really interesting case.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, but because I wasn't that familiar, that's why I
decided to cover it. And yeah, just didn't disappoint. So
picture New Orleans in nineteen eighteen. It's the end of
World War One and the Spanish flu is going to
kill about one percent of the population. One percent yep,
in New Orleans, Just in New Orleans, Okay, I was
(03:42):
gonna say, because it was five percent. Yeah, and that's
going to be within six months, so wow, it's going
to happen pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I also always whenever I hear New Orleans or New Orleans,
oh my godless.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Hold on, hold on, let's look at each other's eyes,
because I always think of something too.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, let's see what it is. Does it start with
a v kind of maybe?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Is it about vampires?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Interview with a vampire?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh my god, Yes, that is exactly what I was.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Thinking of the stat I just think of the whole
film really like that. I always think of that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
I knew it. I knew that's what you're gonna say.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did you? Well? I think the film is set much
earlier than nineteen eighteen, too, are Yeah, but even now
I still think it looks like it did an interview
with a vampire. So On the twenty third of May
nineteen eighteen, a man called Joseph Maggio was sleeping beside
his wife Catherine. Their house was attached to their business,
(04:43):
which was a grocery shop and bar, and the middle
of the night, someone broke into their home, found a
couple in bed, and attacked them, first slicing their throats
with a razor and then bashing their heads with an axe.
Joseph's brother, a Andrew, lived next door to the couple,
and around two hours after the attack, he went to investigate.
(05:06):
When he could hear strange moaning through the walls. He
would find the bloody scene and the moans were coming
from his brother, and he managed to get the police.
Catherine had died prior to Andrew's discovery, and Joseph died
just a few minutes after Andrew arrived. Police found that
all valuables were left in the house and ruled it
(05:27):
a robbery his motive. They also found bloody clothes nearby,
and theorized that the killer had changed into a clean
set of clothes before leaving. The razor was found at
the scene and identified as belonging to Andrew, who happened
to be a barber no I know. Police found it
suspicious that he had been able to hear the moaning
(05:49):
but hadn't heard the attack two hours earlier, despite being
home at the time. Andrew claimed that he was too
drunk to have heard it, but they didn't have enough
other evidence to arrest him and couldn't get him to confess,
and so he was released. Just over a month later,
Lewis Besumer was attacked also as he slept beside him.
(06:10):
Was not his wife, but his mistress, Harriet Lowe. Lewis
also owned a grocery and was attacked with an axe
and that fractured his skull. Harriet received similar injuries and
both were found unconscious by delivery driver. Police thought a
disgruntled ex employee might have been to blame, especially as
(06:32):
it was Lewis's own axe it was used in the
attack and the employee was likely to have known where
that was kept. Harriet would then later go on to
give several conflicting and confusing statements to the police and
would go on to accuse Lewis as the attacker, claiming
that he was a German spy and that she had
(06:53):
found out a secret and that's why he attacked her.
So both of them survived the attack okay. Lewis was
eventually arrested and initially he was released due to insufficient evidence,
but Harriet would insist it was Lewis that attacked her,
and she made the claim again only a few days
(07:13):
before she eventually died. And she died following complications from
an operation to repair damage to her face from the attack.
So she initially survived, but I believe the left side
of her face was paralyzed, so she went into surgery,
but died after that surgery a few days later.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Did they say why, I'm just wondering what went wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No, I couldn't find any information as to why. But
it was nineteen eighteen, so it could have been anything.
But they ruled that it was murder now because she
had died yea due to injuries from the attack, and
Lewis was arrested and charged with her murder. He awaited
trial for nine months in prison before he was like acquitted.
(08:01):
So another attack that they thought that they had the murderer,
but turns out well, they didn't have enough evidence to
say it was right. Another attack occurred again, just over
a month after Lewis and Harriet. On the fifth of
August nineteen eighteen. Anna Schneider was asleep alone in her bed.
She was eight months pregnant and her husband was working late.
(08:24):
She reported waking up to a large figure standing over her.
The figure then hit her on the head repeatedly until
she lost consciousness. Her husband ed would find his wife
covered in blood, with her scalp essentially sliced off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But she was taken to hospital, where she recovered, and
she gave birth to a girl two days later. Nothing
was taken from the home and no murder weapon found.
The police made arrest but nothing stuck due to the evidence.
They then thought that the bedside lamp had been used
in the attack, so not an axe, but they still
(09:06):
linked it to the first two For some reason. I
kind of feel like something's wrong there. Either this attack
is completely separate or they've misidentified the lamp as the
murder weapon. Okay, especially if for scalp was sliced open.
I don't think a lamp could do that. I think
it would probably break before unless it was a metal lamp.
(09:28):
But I think still you need some sort of sharpness
to have that slice.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I don't know. I mean, when you think about it,
if you go through a window, it can slice you.
So maybe maybe the ceramic on the lamp sliced.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I don't know, maybe if it broke or something like that.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I don't know. I'm thinking outside the box. I have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, okay, Well, just five days after this attack, Joseph
Romano was attacked in his bedroom again in the middle
of the night. He fought back against his attacker and
the attacker fled. When his nieces ran into his bedroom.
He had been hitting the head and he was taken
to hospital. So he was quite an old man and
(10:07):
he put up a really good fight. He ended up
being able to walk to the ambulance. I think he
was okay enough to walk, but he then died two
days later from severe head trauma. I'd say probably just
said adrenaline and things like that allowed him to walk,
but then shock probably set in and then he died.
(10:28):
Police found an axe in the garden which had blood
on it, and following this attack, that was when panic
and the public really set in. Many feared that a
crazed axeman was roaming the city, and was fueled by
a former policeman referring to the axe man as a
doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde character. So someone that could
(10:48):
just walk among people in appear very normal, who would
then suddenly have to murder someone. After this attack, though
there wasn't another one for like five months. Oh and
I wonder if that's because he was so close to
getting caught. You know, Joseph's nieces essentially saw him flee
(11:09):
the scene, so maybe that scared him enough that he
wasn't able to attack. Although I'm still kind of doubtful
that all of these attacks so far are linked it's.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Kind of like the Boston Strangler where they tried to
put every strangling that happened to him.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
But yeah, exactly, Yeah. The Court and Mejulia family were
attacked on the tenth of March nineteen nineteen. Both Charles
and his wife Rosie would survive the attack, but their
daughter Mary, she died at the scene. She was only
two years old. Oh no, no. The family were found
(11:44):
and helped by their neighbor i Orlando George Dano after
he heard screams coming from their house. Police found a
bloody axe again and it was near the back of
the house, and they found the door panel had been
chiseled away to allow entry, and that same thing had
happened in the previous attack with Joseph Romano too. They'd
(12:05):
found evidence of the door panel being chiseled away. Charles
and Rosie were taken to hospital and Charles was released
a few days later, but Rosie fell into unconsciousness. She
would later awake, and she actually accused Irelando Giordano and
his son for the attack, despite Irelando being in his
sixties and really not fit enough to carry out such
(12:30):
a violent attack, and even though his son was obviously
probably fit enough to do it. He was like six
foot something and two hundred pounds and couldn't have fit
through the door panel, but she still insisted. Her husband, however, Charles,
he completely denied that and said that she was making
it up, and he went on to divorce her. Oh,
(12:52):
because of the claims and despite it just being her
word against theirs, Ireland and his son were arrested, tried
and find guilty. His son was sentenced to death and
Orlando was sentenced to life in prison. And a year
after the conviction, Rosie would recan't admit that she'd lied,
and she said that she did it because she was
(13:13):
jealous of their family. Oh my god, I know, and
they were released from jail.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I think in fact, they didn't kill him in the meantime.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Well I know exactly, especially back then, like there wasn't
that long between you know, conviction, sentence and then death.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
No wonder her husband divorced her, like geez.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah. So after this attack, a letter was sent to
the local newspapers. In the letter, there was claims from
the axe Man. He claimed that he was the x
Men of New Orleans. He claimed that he would never
be caught. He said that he wasn't human, and that
he was amused by the police's poor investigations so far.
(13:53):
He taunted the people of New Orleans by saying he
could be so much worse if he wanted to be,
And he alluded to different sort of religious themes. So
he referenced like Greek mythology and also like Christianity, said
that he was sort of ruled by the devil and
things like that. But also there was a lot of
mentions to like a specific hell and Greek mythology. I
(14:15):
can't remember the name of it. No, something else I
can't remember. I didn't recognize it anyway, I had to
look up. He then warned that on the nineteenth of
March he would be prowling the city looking for a
house to attack. He said that he would avoid all
houses where he could hear jazz music, as he enjoyed
the music so much so that night on the nineteenth
(14:39):
of March, all the music and dance halls were full
to bursting with people wanting to avoid the axe man,
and hundreds of bands were hired to play at people's houses. Wow,
and there were no attacks that night.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
That must have been incredible though, so cool.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it would have been like a really bizarre vibe.
I think I don't think there would ever be a
I like it, Like, we have to have this jazz
party to avoid getting murdered.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But imagine like you didn't know that's what it was for,
and you're just like popping into New Orleans and you're.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Like, holy amazing and parties everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So after this letter, five months went by without an
attack until the tenth of August. Steve Boca, who was
another grosser, was attacked. As he slept, he lost consciousness,
and when he awoke, he ran outside before realizing his
head had already been split open. Oh he managed to
get to his neighbors before he passed out. He managed
(15:36):
to make a full recovery once he was taken to hospital,
and police found a similar scene. So the panel of
the door was chiseled as well in his house, and
less than a month later, Sarah Lawman was attacked, also
in her bed. She was only nineteen. She lived alone.
She remained unconscious until neighbors forced her way into the
(15:57):
house when she didn't answer the door. She had been
struck in the head so hard that she'd lost several teeth.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Oh no, no, I know.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
She did go on to recover in hospital, and police
found an axe with blood on it in the garden
at the front. So I think that's probably why the
neighbors burst in, because it would have been unusual for
someone to burst in just because you weren't answering the door.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, So I think they.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Saw the acts and thought the worst obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
The last suspected axemen attack was on Mike Pepitone on
the twenty seventh of October nineteen nineteen. He and his
wife slept separately and she was awoken by noises in
her husband's bedroom. She went to investigate and saw a
large man with an axe fleeing the scene. She found
her husband in bed, covered in blood, and he would
(16:45):
later die from his injuries. A crime writer called Colin
Wilson has claimed that Mike's wife changed her name and
sought revenged and shot and killed a man called Joseph
Monfra in La a year after Mike's death, claim that
he was the axeman. But there's really not that much
evidence to support this claim. It's made even more difficult
(17:06):
to research because obviously there wasn't that great of records
back then. People changed their name all the time back then,
you know, not even just officially, but they went by
aliases a lot. The name Joseph Monfra though, has been
banded about as a main suspect. But because it's been
over one hundred years since the last murder, it's just
(17:27):
so unlikely that this case will ever be solved. And
as I said earlier, I don't know. I kind of
struggle to feel like the first few cases were linked.
I think definitely the last four or five, you know,
the ones with the evidence of chiseling in the back
door such a specific m O that I can understand
(17:48):
if that was linked. I even find it plausible that
it could have been the actual murderer that sent the letter.
But I think the first few just happened to be
similar attacks.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So he slit the throats and used an X on
the head. So you don't think that was.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Him, No, I think it was a brother.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Oh interesting controversial.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Well, it was his razor that was found at the scene.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, you know, he.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Lived next door. I think it probably was him.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yeah, who leaves her own fucking razor at the scene.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
You know, especially if he was so careful to have
changed his clothes. Yeah, exactly strange. Anyway, that was my
very long case.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That was very good.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Thank you is your microphone?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Okay, Holly, I just know it's a lot of cookie
crumbs on it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
M all right. Do you want to go ahead with
your case?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I do because mine's long too.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
My case takes place in South Africa. So I have
a South African telling me how to say the words.
Henri Risti, who will now be known as Henry, so
Henry the rest of the words, was born in nineteen
ninety five, so he is a young and okay, oh
(19:16):
my god, he was born the year I graduated high school.
I'm old, okay. So the fan Breida family, I think
I said that right. Yes, me, we're a strong Christian family,
which is not unusual because in South Africa and the
maybe have very very strong Christians there, okay. And they
came from the Stellenbosch region of Stellenbach. Stellenbosch, I think
(19:39):
it's Stellenbosch region of South Africa. It's beautiful. I've flown
over it. It sort of it's near Cape Town, so
if you're flying from joe Burg to Cape Town, it's
just these beautiful like hills with vineyards in them like
it's the wine region of South Africa. It's absolutely gorgeous
and it's where all the richie Richardsons live because obviously
wineries money, okay and old money. So in two thousand
(20:03):
and six, the family, being Martin and Teresa as the parents,
as well as their three children Rudy, Henri and Marlee
who was a daughter, moved to Melbourne, Australia just for
business prospects for Martin is the father, so it was
Martin's business prospects and that's why they went. But the
(20:23):
children also went to school in Australia, okay. So in
twenty fourteen the family decided Australia wasn't really for them,
probably to make snakes and spiders, although they have that
in fucking South Africa too, and decided to move back
to South Africa to encourage Martin's business ventures back in
South Africa again, and also Teresa really wanted to look
closer to her family again, right, So those two sons
(20:47):
stayed in Australia while they were finishing their studies at
Melbourne University, and the daughter Marlee went back with the parents,
and then later on in twenty fourteen they rejoined their
family though they were like just probably just finishing up
a semester or two. It wasn't very long. It wasn't
very long that they were separated. The family lived in
(21:10):
a high security compound on a golf estate which had
very advanced systems. It had cameras, it had thermal imaging,
it had really high walls, electric fences, as well as
security guards. Right, And that's pretty much the norm in
South Africa. If you have money, you're going to be
in a secure compound. Yeah, it's just how it's done.
(21:33):
And this one was because they were quite wealthy, was
a little bit more advanced than most. I mean, they
had the thermal imaging, which is quite advanced for the time.
So on the twenty seventh of January twenty fifteen, Audrey
called emergency services saying that everyone in the family had
been attacked and they needed help. He said they all
had head injuries and the only one moving at all
(21:56):
was his sister Marley. He claimed that he was in
the bathroom really early morning, you're talking like three four
o'clock in the morning, and that he saw from the
bathroom a tall black man wearing a balaclava and gloves
go into Rudy's bedroom and attack his brother in his
bed with an axe. First question, how do you know
it was a black man? M he's got a balatclava
(22:18):
on balaclava on. Yeah. Interesting. So Henry said that he
called out like basically showed like ah, and his father
came into the room, and then his sister also came
into the room because she heard all the commotion and
that his father had tried to get in between, you know,
(22:39):
the attacker and the children, and he had been killed.
He had been attacked, and then his sister had been attacked,
and then his mother had been attacked, who also came
into the room. And then he said he just totally froze,
like he was just standing in the doorway this entire
fucking time. He's standing in the doorway frozen, Okay. And
then when the man pulled out a knife, he started
(23:00):
fighting with the man. So the guy's got an axe,
so he's used to kill all these people, yeah, and
he suddenly pulls out a knife and.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Then he brings out a knife.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, and then he starts struggling and Henry was stabbed
and the intruder fled at that point. So this is
where it gets really like interesting and it's good that
criminals are stupid. Instead of calling officials, Henry Henri whatever
first tried to call his girlfriend Bianca, who was only
(23:28):
sixteen years old at the time. Okay, yeah, she was
quite young. And when she didn't pick up because it
was like ridiculously early in the morning, he claims he
passed out on the stairs, like just boomp, passed out.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
And he had no injuries or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Oh no, he'd been stabbed. He'd been stabbed. Oh hai, yeah,
at seven am, he woke up and calmly spoke to
emergency services. When they arrived, they rushed in and Marley
was still clinging to life and she was rushed to
the hospital. Gosh as she was like really really late.
I mean it was it was touching go if she
was gonna make it. She had extreme head injuries. She
(24:08):
had survived eventually, but no recollection of the attack, like
absolutely nothing. She couldn't remember anything or good. I don't know,
maybe it's good for her. So Hunriye, after trying to
call his girlfriend several times between four and five am,
had googled emergency service numbers so couldn't get through to
the girlfriend. Then decides, well, I should probably google some
(24:30):
emergency service numbers, but didn't make the call until seven am,
So that's not hours, like minimum two hours possibly three
that he in between googling and calling the emergency services. Yeah,
he was treated for superficial wounds, so.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Not smart and not enough to make you pass it. Probably.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
No, No, definitely not like they show him. I've seen
pictures of him setting up in the ambulance and he's
just like, hey, like he's still fine, He's totally fine.
He doesn't even look sad. And you can't judge people.
I know, I shouldn't say that he doesn't look sad
because he might be in shock, you know, like you
can't say for sure if somebody doesn't necessarily have to
look sad, because they could be in shock. And he's
(25:14):
still processing and don't even know what's going on. What
I'm saying is he didn't look that bad off or
somebody had been stabbed.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Marley was the most severely injured, showing she had put
up a struggle with all her defensive wounds. She had
wounds all over her hands and arms. Their father, Martin,
had a deep wound in his back, indicating that he
had tried to shield his son Rudy from the attacker
and then had been basically hit with an axe in
his back. Oh a neighbor living nearby said she had
(25:43):
heard what sounded like loud arguing from the house the
evening before, so it's not like it's not like this
is just out of the blue. Even though he claimed
that there were no issues, there had been some sort
of altercation or argument. Other neighbors and friends describe Henri
as the black sheep of the family who had dropped
out of school, had a drug addiction, and was told
(26:05):
by his parents they would cut off his allowance if
he did not get cleaned up the university in Melbourne.
His brother had finished, but Henri had just dropped out
and decided not to go back to schooling okay, or
to continue on with the schooling, but he also didn't
want to fucking work right, So he was reportedly completely
(26:25):
calm when he spoke to police, and the police really
felt like he was involved from the beginning. I mean,
it doesn't take you know, a good detective to figure
that one out. I think we all could have figured
that out. There was absolutely no breach of the security system,
No signs of forest entry, and none of the valuables
were taken from downstairs, and the murders happened upstairs, so
(26:45):
they would have had to have broken in downstairs, gone
past all the stuff there. And in South Africa, robbery,
I mean, yeah, they'll still kill you, but robbery is
the main point of breaking into something. Yeah, they're not
going to go upstairs first and kill you and then
take nothing, like there would be no point in that.
(27:06):
The wounds on Henri were determined by experts to be
superficial and self inflicted. He was arrested and face trial
in Cape Town. The blood splatter evidence on Henri also
showed that they had dried while he was upright, so
he clearly hadn't passed out, because if he had passed out,
they would have been pointing downwards.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, And there was no blood splatter in the area
he was supposed to be standing in in the bathroom,
but he was completely covered in blood splatter, so right,
there's no way that, Like there would have been a
void space behind him, but there still would have been
blood splatter all around him if he had gotten it
in the bathroom, like where he's standing yeah, yeah, science
(27:49):
one Henri zero. So of course he was totally found
guilty and he received three life sentences in the year
twenty eighteen and he will most likely die in And
I got this all from a I wanted to get
it all from there. No, I didn't. I got so
there was an episode of sixteen Minutes Australia I watch,
(28:10):
and then there was also a BBC News article from
a South Africa reporter from juneo twenty eighteen. That's my story.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Wow. And do you think his motive was, you know,
because he didn't want to go back to school and
he just he wanted money.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, he was gonna inherit. I mean the family came
from money. They were very well off and they both
families came from money. Again, there's family money in that
area of South Africa, especially with the wineries and everything
like that, and they were a well to do family
in the area. The interesting thing is he's got a
girlfriend now who one hundred percent believes in his innocence,
(28:47):
and when they were interviewing her, she's like, well, I mean,
we weren't there, we don't know, we don't know. I'm like,
oh my god, how can people be this stupid. Yeah whatever,
I mean, to each their own. If you want a
guy who's in jail and potentially murdered his whole family,
go for it. But yeah, I don't think there there
is a shred of doubt in anyone's mind except for hers.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, for sure, he's one hundred pcent guilty.
Oh yeah, good one.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Holly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
We are back.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
And obviously this week we have very similar ways of
dying because our topic is essentially the same ex martiners.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Huh. Yeah, yeah, we didn't think that's true, did we.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Still there's differences in both of the cases.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
There are, so for me, I think being killed by
your child and or a brother with an axe and
seeing all your other family members being killed might be
worse than a stranger coming in and doing it. I'm grasping.
I'm really grasping.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I mean, that's that was the theory that I was
going down, like train of thought that I was going down.
I think that either way, everybody sort of died a
similar death. And obviously in both of our cases there
were survivors as well. Well. One survivor in your case,
(30:20):
what a fighter she was? And I personally think that
that's what's going to decide for me, is the fact
that it's your brother or son that's carrying out the
murder rather than a surprise. And also, some of the
(30:40):
victims in my case were asleep. Some of them didn't
even wake up, you know. Some of them were just
attacked as they slept. Some of them did wake up,
but they were attacked probably immediately after they woke up.
So there is a chance that you aren't even aware
of what's happened.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Or you're aware for a second second, like it probably
would be just confusion. Yeah. Yeah, the fact the father
took an explode to the back that fills me with, Oh,
it really does. I don't know why, it just.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Lawa And I mean they probably the family probably were
really confused, but I'm sure they managed to sort of understand,
like why he was doing it, that he was just
being a selfish, lazy little urse. They would obviously be
wondering why their their son was doing this, and that
(31:35):
would be the only answer they could come to, because
that was why he was doing it. Yeah, he didn't
want to work. He wanted an easy way to live
and eliminate in his family was in his head, the
easiest way to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
It's absolutely horrible.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
What psychopath. So we're going with mine, we are, we're
going with yours. Both agreeing. Ye, yes, congratulations, congratulated.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Who are you congratulating me?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Mostly just for getting through it. They were both very
long cases.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Were very long cases. Yeah, I mean, who knew X
murder is very complicated.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, especially when you pick a serial killer. I knew
as I was writing it. I was like, I shouldn't
have picked this case, but I was really interested in
it at the same time. So it is a thank
you all very much for listening. I know this one
has been a little bit longer, but I'm sure I
personally don't mind a long podcast episode, so I'm sure
our listeners don't mind either.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Fingers crossed. Yeah, if you have.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Enjoyed listening, please give us a little rate and review
on iTunes or wherever you're listening. Also subscribe to wherever
you're listening. That would be lovely. And if you find
that people or if you think that people would enjoy
listening to us, then just recommend us. That would be lovely.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
It would be lovely, and give us a little shout
on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook. Is loving chatting to
people or just reading your thoughts on the episodes and
of course suggestions.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We take those two definitely and we will see you
next week. We will bye bye.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. Can find us wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer at
gmail dot com or visit our website at which Murderer
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Just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(33:32):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
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Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Our artwork was produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com.
Big gal if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hiilli, Hi Gemma. How's it going?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
It's going? Twenty twenty one is a trash fire? So yeah,
I mean, we haven't spoken about how badly twenty twenty
one is going at all.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
No, we haven't yet.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
No, I mean America, I don't know, lost their minds again,
and then we're in another lockdown. There's another variant of
this fucking virus that won't die a horrible death. There's
now the South American one.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Creat told me about this yesterday.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Yeah, So, I mean, I guess it's good to have choices.
We have three to choose from now. So yeah, twenty
twenty one, folks, Jumanji.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Oh, don't do this to us.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Anyway, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah? I thank you good, desperately hoping not for Jumanji.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
No, Jumanji is good. You say it and then it ends.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Oh yeah, I suppose. And this past week was my
first week back at work after being off at the
start of the new year, and it feels like I'm
being cheated only having two days off at the weekend.
I feel like it's not enough anymore. A weekend is
not long enough. It needs to be at least twice
as big it does?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
It does? We should only work two days a week.
That should be the role.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, so we are which murderer?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Oh yeah, that's what I was forgetting. Yes, we are.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
That's something that we have to say at the start
of every episode.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We wanted to do a quick shout out for one
of our super fans, didn't.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
We Oh my god, I almost forgot again. What is
wrong with me? Oh? Do you want to do it?
Or do you want me to do it? You do it,
I'll do it. Okay, So super fan Mail, who's my mail?
She shared us on her Instagram story, which she always
does because she's a super cool check and she always
shares us. So thank you, Meil. My sympathy is right
(02:12):
now because she is homeschooling two young children and working
and her house is being renovated. So I feel like
she needs a lot of alcohol and podcasts.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That sounds like a good coping strategy.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
I support it, especially with everything else that's going on
for her. My goodness, mel wat trip her.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah she is.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
So this week we are discussing axe murderers. I'm going first.
My case is quite long because it's the axe man
of New Orleans. Ooh, yeah, and I got all this
information for very well informed Wikipedia article. Yeah, that's everything.
(02:54):
I didn't have to go anybody else from information.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
The case is really well known, but I didn't know
that much about it, to be fair, before I started researching.
I just don't know if it's like as infamous as
like a lot of the other unsolved murders out there.
And I don't know why, because there's so much I
know involved.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I know, I've definitely listened to some episodes on other
shows about it, and I've read up on it. It's yeah,
it's a really interesting case.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Yeah, but because I wasn't that familiar, that's why I
decided to cover it. And yeah, just didn't disappoint. So
picture New Orleans in nineteen eighteen. It's the end of
World War One and the Spanish flu is going to
kill about one percent of the population. One percent yep,
in New Orleans, Just in New Orleans, Okay, I was
(03:42):
gonna say, because it was five percent. Yeah, and that's
going to be within six months, so wow, it's going
to happen pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I also always whenever I hear New Orleans or New Orleans,
oh my godless.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Hold on, hold on, let's look at each other's eyes,
because I always think of something too.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Okay, let's see what it is. Does it start with
a v kind of maybe?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Is it about vampires?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Interview with a vampire?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Oh my god, Yes, that is exactly what I was.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Thinking of the stat I just think of the whole
film really like that. I always think of that.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
I knew it. I knew that's what you're gonna say.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Did you? Well? I think the film is set much
earlier than nineteen eighteen, too, are Yeah, but even now
I still think it looks like it did an interview
with a vampire. So On the twenty third of May
nineteen eighteen, a man called Joseph Maggio was sleeping beside
his wife Catherine. Their house was attached to their business,
(04:43):
which was a grocery shop and bar, and the middle
of the night, someone broke into their home, found a
couple in bed, and attacked them, first slicing their throats
with a razor and then bashing their heads with an axe.
Joseph's brother, a Andrew, lived next door to the couple,
and around two hours after the attack, he went to investigate.
(05:06):
When he could hear strange moaning through the walls. He
would find the bloody scene and the moans were coming
from his brother, and he managed to get the police.
Catherine had died prior to Andrew's discovery, and Joseph died
just a few minutes after Andrew arrived. Police found that
all valuables were left in the house and ruled it
(05:27):
a robbery his motive. They also found bloody clothes nearby,
and theorized that the killer had changed into a clean
set of clothes before leaving. The razor was found at
the scene and identified as belonging to Andrew, who happened
to be a barber no I know. Police found it
suspicious that he had been able to hear the moaning
(05:49):
but hadn't heard the attack two hours earlier, despite being
home at the time. Andrew claimed that he was too
drunk to have heard it, but they didn't have enough
other evidence to arrest him and couldn't get him to confess,
and so he was released. Just over a month later,
Lewis Besumer was attacked also as he slept beside him.
(06:10):
Was not his wife, but his mistress, Harriet Lowe. Lewis
also owned a grocery and was attacked with an axe
and that fractured his skull. Harriet received similar injuries and
both were found unconscious by delivery driver. Police thought a
disgruntled ex employee might have been to blame, especially as
(06:32):
it was Lewis's own axe it was used in the
attack and the employee was likely to have known where
that was kept. Harriet would then later go on to
give several conflicting and confusing statements to the police and
would go on to accuse Lewis as the attacker, claiming
that he was a German spy and that she had
(06:53):
found out a secret and that's why he attacked her.
So both of them survived the attack okay. Lewis was
eventually arrested and initially he was released due to insufficient evidence,
but Harriet would insist it was Lewis that attacked her,
and she made the claim again only a few days
(07:13):
before she eventually died. And she died following complications from
an operation to repair damage to her face from the attack.
So she initially survived, but I believe the left side
of her face was paralyzed, so she went into surgery,
but died after that surgery a few days later.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Did they say why, I'm just wondering what went wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No, I couldn't find any information as to why. But
it was nineteen eighteen, so it could have been anything.
But they ruled that it was murder now because she
had died yea due to injuries from the attack, and
Lewis was arrested and charged with her murder. He awaited
trial for nine months in prison before he was like acquitted.
(08:01):
So another attack that they thought that they had the murderer,
but turns out well, they didn't have enough evidence to
say it was right. Another attack occurred again, just over
a month after Lewis and Harriet. On the fifth of
August nineteen eighteen. Anna Schneider was asleep alone in her bed.
She was eight months pregnant and her husband was working late.
(08:24):
She reported waking up to a large figure standing over her.
The figure then hit her on the head repeatedly until
she lost consciousness. Her husband ed would find his wife
covered in blood, with her scalp essentially sliced off.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
But she was taken to hospital, where she recovered, and
she gave birth to a girl two days later. Nothing
was taken from the home and no murder weapon found.
The police made arrest but nothing stuck due to the evidence.
They then thought that the bedside lamp had been used
in the attack, so not an axe, but they still
(09:06):
linked it to the first two For some reason. I
kind of feel like something's wrong there. Either this attack
is completely separate or they've misidentified the lamp as the
murder weapon. Okay, especially if for scalp was sliced open.
I don't think a lamp could do that. I think
it would probably break before unless it was a metal lamp.
(09:28):
But I think still you need some sort of sharpness
to have that slice.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I don't know. I mean, when you think about it,
if you go through a window, it can slice you.
So maybe maybe the ceramic on the lamp sliced.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I don't know, maybe if it broke or something like that.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I don't know. I'm thinking outside the box. I have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, okay, Well, just five days after this attack, Joseph
Romano was attacked in his bedroom again in the middle
of the night. He fought back against his attacker and
the attacker fled. When his nieces ran into his bedroom.
He had been hitting the head and he was taken
to hospital. So he was quite an old man and
(10:07):
he put up a really good fight. He ended up
being able to walk to the ambulance. I think he
was okay enough to walk, but he then died two
days later from severe head trauma. I'd say probably just
said adrenaline and things like that allowed him to walk,
but then shock probably set in and then he died.
(10:28):
Police found an axe in the garden which had blood
on it, and following this attack, that was when panic
and the public really set in. Many feared that a
crazed axeman was roaming the city, and was fueled by
a former policeman referring to the axe man as a
doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde character. So someone that could
(10:48):
just walk among people in appear very normal, who would
then suddenly have to murder someone. After this attack, though
there wasn't another one for like five months. Oh and
I wonder if that's because he was so close to
getting caught. You know, Joseph's nieces essentially saw him flee
(11:09):
the scene, so maybe that scared him enough that he
wasn't able to attack. Although I'm still kind of doubtful
that all of these attacks so far are linked it's.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Kind of like the Boston Strangler where they tried to
put every strangling that happened to him.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
But yeah, exactly, Yeah. The Court and Mejulia family were
attacked on the tenth of March nineteen nineteen. Both Charles
and his wife Rosie would survive the attack, but their
daughter Mary, she died at the scene. She was only
two years old. Oh no, no. The family were found
(11:44):
and helped by their neighbor i Orlando George Dano after
he heard screams coming from their house. Police found a
bloody axe again and it was near the back of
the house, and they found the door panel had been
chiseled away to allow entry, and that same thing had
happened in the previous attack with Joseph Romano too. They'd
(12:05):
found evidence of the door panel being chiseled away. Charles
and Rosie were taken to hospital and Charles was released
a few days later, but Rosie fell into unconsciousness. She
would later awake, and she actually accused Irelando Giordano and
his son for the attack, despite Irelando being in his
sixties and really not fit enough to carry out such
(12:30):
a violent attack, and even though his son was obviously
probably fit enough to do it. He was like six
foot something and two hundred pounds and couldn't have fit
through the door panel, but she still insisted. Her husband, however, Charles,
he completely denied that and said that she was making
it up, and he went on to divorce her. Oh,
(12:52):
because of the claims and despite it just being her
word against theirs, Ireland and his son were arrested, tried
and find guilty. His son was sentenced to death and
Orlando was sentenced to life in prison. And a year
after the conviction, Rosie would recan't admit that she'd lied,
and she said that she did it because she was
(13:13):
jealous of their family. Oh my god, I know, and
they were released from jail.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I think in fact, they didn't kill him in the meantime.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Well I know exactly, especially back then, like there wasn't
that long between you know, conviction, sentence and then death.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
No wonder her husband divorced her, like geez.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah. So after this attack, a letter was sent to
the local newspapers. In the letter, there was claims from
the axe Man. He claimed that he was the x
Men of New Orleans. He claimed that he would never
be caught. He said that he wasn't human, and that
he was amused by the police's poor investigations so far.
(13:53):
He taunted the people of New Orleans by saying he
could be so much worse if he wanted to be,
And he alluded to different sort of religious themes. So
he referenced like Greek mythology and also like Christianity, said
that he was sort of ruled by the devil and
things like that. But also there was a lot of
mentions to like a specific hell and Greek mythology. I
(14:15):
can't remember the name of it. No, something else I
can't remember. I didn't recognize it anyway, I had to
look up. He then warned that on the nineteenth of
March he would be prowling the city looking for a
house to attack. He said that he would avoid all
houses where he could hear jazz music, as he enjoyed
the music so much so that night on the nineteenth
(14:39):
of March, all the music and dance halls were full
to bursting with people wanting to avoid the axe man,
and hundreds of bands were hired to play at people's houses. Wow,
and there were no attacks that night.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
That must have been incredible though, so cool.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, it would have been like a really bizarre vibe.
I think I don't think there would ever be a
I like it, Like, we have to have this jazz
party to avoid getting murdered.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
But imagine like you didn't know that's what it was for,
and you're just like popping into New Orleans and you're.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Like, holy amazing and parties everywhere.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So after this letter, five months went by without an
attack until the tenth of August. Steve Boca, who was
another grosser, was attacked. As he slept, he lost consciousness,
and when he awoke, he ran outside before realizing his
head had already been split open. Oh he managed to
get to his neighbors before he passed out. He managed
(15:36):
to make a full recovery once he was taken to hospital,
and police found a similar scene. So the panel of
the door was chiseled as well in his house, and
less than a month later, Sarah Lawman was attacked, also
in her bed. She was only nineteen. She lived alone.
She remained unconscious until neighbors forced her way into the
(15:57):
house when she didn't answer the door. She had been
struck in the head so hard that she'd lost several teeth.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Oh no, no, I know.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
She did go on to recover in hospital, and police
found an axe with blood on it in the garden
at the front. So I think that's probably why the
neighbors burst in, because it would have been unusual for
someone to burst in just because you weren't answering the door.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, So I think they.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Saw the acts and thought the worst obviously.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
The last suspected axemen attack was on Mike Pepitone on
the twenty seventh of October nineteen nineteen. He and his
wife slept separately and she was awoken by noises in
her husband's bedroom. She went to investigate and saw a
large man with an axe fleeing the scene. She found
her husband in bed, covered in blood, and he would
(16:45):
later die from his injuries. A crime writer called Colin
Wilson has claimed that Mike's wife changed her name and
sought revenged and shot and killed a man called Joseph
Monfra in La a year after Mike's death, claim that
he was the axeman. But there's really not that much
evidence to support this claim. It's made even more difficult
(17:06):
to research because obviously there wasn't that great of records
back then. People changed their name all the time back then,
you know, not even just officially, but they went by
aliases a lot. The name Joseph Monfra though, has been
banded about as a main suspect. But because it's been
over one hundred years since the last murder, it's just
(17:27):
so unlikely that this case will ever be solved. And
as I said earlier, I don't know. I kind of
struggle to feel like the first few cases were linked.
I think definitely the last four or five, you know,
the ones with the evidence of chiseling in the back
door such a specific m O that I can understand
(17:48):
if that was linked. I even find it plausible that
it could have been the actual murderer that sent the letter.
But I think the first few just happened to be
similar attacks.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So he slit the throats and used an X on
the head. So you don't think that was.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Him, No, I think it was a brother.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Oh interesting controversial.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Well, it was his razor that was found at the scene.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, you know, he.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Lived next door. I think it probably was him.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yeah, who leaves her own fucking razor at the scene.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
You know, especially if he was so careful to have
changed his clothes. Yeah, exactly strange. Anyway, that was my
very long case.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That was very good.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Thank you is your microphone?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Okay, Holly, I just know it's a lot of cookie
crumbs on it.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
M all right. Do you want to go ahead with
your case?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
I do because mine's long too.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
My case takes place in South Africa. So I have
a South African telling me how to say the words.
Henri Risti, who will now be known as Henry, so
Henry the rest of the words, was born in nineteen
ninety five, so he is a young and okay, oh
(19:16):
my god, he was born the year I graduated high school.
I'm old, okay. So the fan Breida family, I think
I said that right. Yes, me, we're a strong Christian family,
which is not unusual because in South Africa and the
maybe have very very strong Christians there, okay. And they
came from the Stellenbosch region of Stellenbach. Stellenbosch, I think
(19:39):
it's Stellenbosch region of South Africa. It's beautiful. I've flown
over it. It sort of it's near Cape Town, so
if you're flying from joe Burg to Cape Town, it's
just these beautiful like hills with vineyards in them like
it's the wine region of South Africa. It's absolutely gorgeous
and it's where all the richie Richardsons live because obviously
wineries money, okay and old money. So in two thousand
(20:03):
and six, the family, being Martin and Teresa as the parents,
as well as their three children Rudy, Henri and Marlee
who was a daughter, moved to Melbourne, Australia just for
business prospects for Martin is the father, so it was
Martin's business prospects and that's why they went. But the
(20:23):
children also went to school in Australia, okay. So in
twenty fourteen the family decided Australia wasn't really for them,
probably to make snakes and spiders, although they have that
in fucking South Africa too, and decided to move back
to South Africa to encourage Martin's business ventures back in
South Africa again, and also Teresa really wanted to look
closer to her family again, right, So those two sons
(20:47):
stayed in Australia while they were finishing their studies at
Melbourne University, and the daughter Marlee went back with the parents,
and then later on in twenty fourteen they rejoined their
family though they were like just probably just finishing up
a semester or two. It wasn't very long. It wasn't
very long that they were separated. The family lived in
(21:10):
a high security compound on a golf estate which had
very advanced systems. It had cameras, it had thermal imaging,
it had really high walls, electric fences, as well as
security guards. Right, And that's pretty much the norm in
South Africa. If you have money, you're going to be
in a secure compound. Yeah, it's just how it's done.
(21:33):
And this one was because they were quite wealthy, was
a little bit more advanced than most. I mean, they
had the thermal imaging, which is quite advanced for the time.
So on the twenty seventh of January twenty fifteen, Audrey
called emergency services saying that everyone in the family had
been attacked and they needed help. He said they all
had head injuries and the only one moving at all
(21:56):
was his sister Marley. He claimed that he was in
the bathroom really early morning, you're talking like three four
o'clock in the morning, and that he saw from the
bathroom a tall black man wearing a balaclava and gloves
go into Rudy's bedroom and attack his brother in his
bed with an axe. First question, how do you know
it was a black man? M he's got a balatclava
(22:18):
on balaclava on. Yeah. Interesting. So Henry said that he
called out like basically showed like ah, and his father
came into the room, and then his sister also came
into the room because she heard all the commotion and
that his father had tried to get in between, you know,
(22:39):
the attacker and the children, and he had been killed.
He had been attacked, and then his sister had been attacked,
and then his mother had been attacked, who also came
into the room. And then he said he just totally froze,
like he was just standing in the doorway this entire
fucking time. He's standing in the doorway frozen, Okay. And
then when the man pulled out a knife, he started
(23:00):
fighting with the man. So the guy's got an axe,
so he's used to kill all these people, yeah, and
he suddenly pulls out a knife and.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Then he brings out a knife.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yeah, and then he starts struggling and Henry was stabbed
and the intruder fled at that point. So this is
where it gets really like interesting and it's good that
criminals are stupid. Instead of calling officials, Henry Henri whatever
first tried to call his girlfriend Bianca, who was only
(23:28):
sixteen years old at the time. Okay, yeah, she was
quite young. And when she didn't pick up because it
was like ridiculously early in the morning, he claims he
passed out on the stairs, like just boomp, passed out.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
And he had no injuries or anything like that.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Oh no, he'd been stabbed. He'd been stabbed. Oh hai, yeah,
at seven am, he woke up and calmly spoke to
emergency services. When they arrived, they rushed in and Marley
was still clinging to life and she was rushed to
the hospital. Gosh as she was like really really late.
I mean it was it was touching go if she
was gonna make it. She had extreme head injuries. She
(24:08):
had survived eventually, but no recollection of the attack, like
absolutely nothing. She couldn't remember anything or good. I don't know,
maybe it's good for her. So Hunriye, after trying to
call his girlfriend several times between four and five am,
had googled emergency service numbers so couldn't get through to
the girlfriend. Then decides, well, I should probably google some
(24:30):
emergency service numbers, but didn't make the call until seven am,
So that's not hours, like minimum two hours possibly three
that he in between googling and calling the emergency services. Yeah,
he was treated for superficial wounds, so.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Not smart and not enough to make you pass it. Probably.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
No, No, definitely not like they show him. I've seen
pictures of him setting up in the ambulance and he's
just like, hey, like he's still fine, He's totally fine.
He doesn't even look sad. And you can't judge people.
I know, I shouldn't say that he doesn't look sad
because he might be in shock, you know, like you
can't say for sure if somebody doesn't necessarily have to
look sad, because they could be in shock. And he's
(25:14):
still processing and don't even know what's going on. What
I'm saying is he didn't look that bad off or
somebody had been stabbed.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Marley was the most severely injured, showing she had put
up a struggle with all her defensive wounds. She had
wounds all over her hands and arms. Their father, Martin,
had a deep wound in his back, indicating that he
had tried to shield his son Rudy from the attacker
and then had been basically hit with an axe in
his back. Oh a neighbor living nearby said she had
(25:43):
heard what sounded like loud arguing from the house the
evening before, so it's not like it's not like this
is just out of the blue. Even though he claimed
that there were no issues, there had been some sort
of altercation or argument. Other neighbors and friends describe Henri
as the black sheep of the family who had dropped
out of school, had a drug addiction, and was told
(26:05):
by his parents they would cut off his allowance if
he did not get cleaned up the university in Melbourne.
His brother had finished, but Henri had just dropped out
and decided not to go back to schooling okay, or
to continue on with the schooling, but he also didn't
want to fucking work right, So he was reportedly completely
(26:25):
calm when he spoke to police, and the police really
felt like he was involved from the beginning. I mean,
it doesn't take you know, a good detective to figure
that one out. I think we all could have figured
that out. There was absolutely no breach of the security system,
No signs of forest entry, and none of the valuables
were taken from downstairs, and the murders happened upstairs, so
(26:45):
they would have had to have broken in downstairs, gone
past all the stuff there. And in South Africa, robbery,
I mean, yeah, they'll still kill you, but robbery is
the main point of breaking into something. Yeah, they're not
going to go upstairs first and kill you and then
take nothing, like there would be no point in that.
(27:06):
The wounds on Henri were determined by experts to be
superficial and self inflicted. He was arrested and face trial
in Cape Town. The blood splatter evidence on Henri also
showed that they had dried while he was upright, so
he clearly hadn't passed out, because if he had passed out,
they would have been pointing downwards.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, And there was no blood splatter in the area
he was supposed to be standing in in the bathroom,
but he was completely covered in blood splatter, so right,
there's no way that, Like there would have been a
void space behind him, but there still would have been
blood splatter all around him if he had gotten it
in the bathroom, like where he's standing yeah, yeah, science
(27:49):
one Henri zero. So of course he was totally found
guilty and he received three life sentences in the year
twenty eighteen and he will most likely die in And
I got this all from a I wanted to get
it all from there. No, I didn't. I got so
there was an episode of sixteen Minutes Australia I watch,
(28:10):
and then there was also a BBC News article from
a South Africa reporter from juneo twenty eighteen. That's my story.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Wow. And do you think his motive was, you know,
because he didn't want to go back to school and
he just he wanted money.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah, he was gonna inherit. I mean the family came
from money. They were very well off and they both
families came from money. Again, there's family money in that
area of South Africa, especially with the wineries and everything
like that, and they were a well to do family
in the area. The interesting thing is he's got a
girlfriend now who one hundred percent believes in his innocence,
(28:47):
and when they were interviewing her, she's like, well, I mean,
we weren't there, we don't know, we don't know. I'm like,
oh my god, how can people be this stupid. Yeah whatever,
I mean, to each their own. If you want a
guy who's in jail and potentially murdered his whole family,
go for it. But yeah, I don't think there there
is a shred of doubt in anyone's mind except for hers.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, for sure, he's one hundred pcent guilty.
Oh yeah, good one.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Holly, thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
We are back.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
And obviously this week we have very similar ways of
dying because our topic is essentially the same ex martiners.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Huh. Yeah, yeah, we didn't think that's true, did we.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Still there's differences in both of the cases.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
There are, so for me, I think being killed by
your child and or a brother with an axe and
seeing all your other family members being killed might be
worse than a stranger coming in and doing it. I'm grasping.
I'm really grasping.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
I mean, that's that was the theory that I was
going down, like train of thought that I was going down.
I think that either way, everybody sort of died a
similar death. And obviously in both of our cases there
were survivors as well. Well. One survivor in your case,
(30:20):
what a fighter she was? And I personally think that
that's what's going to decide for me, is the fact
that it's your brother or son that's carrying out the
murder rather than a surprise. And also, some of the
(30:40):
victims in my case were asleep. Some of them didn't
even wake up, you know. Some of them were just
attacked as they slept. Some of them did wake up,
but they were attacked probably immediately after they woke up.
So there is a chance that you aren't even aware
of what's happened.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Or you're aware for a second second, like it probably
would be just confusion. Yeah. Yeah, the fact the father
took an explode to the back that fills me with, Oh,
it really does. I don't know why, it just.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Lawa And I mean they probably the family probably were
really confused, but I'm sure they managed to sort of understand,
like why he was doing it, that he was just
being a selfish, lazy little urse. They would obviously be
wondering why their their son was doing this, and that
(31:35):
would be the only answer they could come to, because
that was why he was doing it. Yeah, he didn't
want to work. He wanted an easy way to live
and eliminate in his family was in his head, the
easiest way to do it exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
It's absolutely horrible.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
What psychopath. So we're going with mine, we are, we're
going with yours. Both agreeing. Ye, yes, congratulations, congratulated.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Who are you congratulating me?
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Mostly just for getting through it. They were both very
long cases.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Were very long cases. Yeah, I mean, who knew X
murder is very complicated.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, especially when you pick a serial killer. I knew
as I was writing it. I was like, I shouldn't
have picked this case, but I was really interested in
it at the same time. So it is a thank
you all very much for listening. I know this one
has been a little bit longer, but I'm sure I
personally don't mind a long podcast episode, so I'm sure
our listeners don't mind either.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Fingers crossed. Yeah, if you have.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Enjoyed listening, please give us a little rate and review
on iTunes or wherever you're listening. Also subscribe to wherever
you're listening. That would be lovely. And if you find
that people or if you think that people would enjoy
listening to us, then just recommend us. That would be lovely.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
It would be lovely, and give us a little shout
on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook. Is loving chatting to
people or just reading your thoughts on the episodes and
of course suggestions.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
We take those two definitely and we will see you
next week. We will bye bye.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. Can find us wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer at
gmail dot com or visit our website at which Murderer
dot com. We are also on Instagram, Reddit and Twitter.
Just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(33:32):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
group interacting with our listeners or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Our artwork was produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com.
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