April 18, 2025 • 24 mins
In Season 3 Episode 40 the girls talk about Chainsaw Murders – happens more than you’d think. Gemma starts you off with the gruesome murderer Jonathan Stasiuk before Holly tells you all about the sad story of Teri Lea Zenner and her brutal murder.
Shoutouts for the fabulous band @Battalionofflies who are dropping their EP TODAY so go check them out, Dave who recommended us (including a minor dig at the Canadian co-host – watching you Dave, watching you) and Super Fan Natalie whose children have traumatized Holly with the passing of time. HI KIDS.
Holly forgets how to podcast for the 194th time in a row, Gemma’s murderer had no regretsies, there are some amazing sound effects in the roundup and once again cookies are being eaten by someone who shall remain unnamed.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who once again has had his glory thwarted by the girls. NO GLORY FOR YOU PC.
Gemma edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Producer Craig who has been listening to Glory Days by The Boss for days now with tears in his little eyes. 0
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Shoutouts for the fabulous band @Battalionofflies who are dropping their EP TODAY so go check them out, Dave who recommended us (including a minor dig at the Canadian co-host – watching you Dave, watching you) and Super Fan Natalie whose children have traumatized Holly with the passing of time. HI KIDS.
Holly forgets how to podcast for the 194th time in a row, Gemma’s murderer had no regretsies, there are some amazing sound effects in the roundup and once again cookies are being eaten by someone who shall remain unnamed.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who once again has had his glory thwarted by the girls. NO GLORY FOR YOU PC.
Gemma edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Producer Craig who has been listening to Glory Days by The Boss for days now with tears in his little eyes. 0
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
If you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
A good afternoon, Holly, good.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Afternoon, Gemma.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I should have been looking at you, fine, I was distracted.
I was looking at the stuff that we need to
do and not looking at you. And then I was like, oh, hello, hello,
Yes we talked to each other on this podcast. Yeah, yeah,
I'm fine. It's a weekend afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Look at us, I know, look at us.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm good, thank you, I'm fine. Just getting on.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Work's been really busy, so yeah, just getting on with stuff.
That's all we can really do.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We are a witch murderer.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We are, we are, and we've got some shout outs.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We do we did. Do you want to go first?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah? Okay, So first shadow is for mister c. K.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Rocks.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
He is His band is Battalion of Flies. They're dropping
an album soon. But he recommended us on his Instagram,
which is cool. Oh nice, I know, it was really cute.
It was nice. Thank you. And then we got a
recommendation on Facebook from Dave Burns, who was just basically
saying that we're entertaining I got, and that the cases
(01:36):
we pick are interesting and make you realize that there
are some strange people out there, not just the Canadians,
and he said keeping coming, ladies. So yeah, that was
very nice.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Even including this slide dick for the Canadians. It was
very nice.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, No, did noted.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And I wanted to shout to Natalie she san as
a on Instagram. I think she laughed quite a lot
at you being out of the loop, Polly on Fox
Catcher being a movie, and she says that the highlight
of our week when our episodes drop, and even her
(02:14):
kids are getting into it and listening. So that's really
nice to hear.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I'm old.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So like the last time I saw her kids, I
swear to god, one of them was still in diapers.
I mean I think they were little anyway, I mean
little little. And the fact that they're now listening to
me talk about murder is disturbing.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Hi, kids, remember me, Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Did people loo? And all the other stuff I talk
about that you should be listening to.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Just having a slight break down there over time, But
we're fine.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm fine, Everything's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So this week we are speaking about murders that involved
chain saws, and I'm speaking first, and I am talking
about a person called Jonathan Stasiuk Stasiuk, I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I had to go to quite a few different sources
for this.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So there was a BBC article that I looked at
that I couldn't see an author for, strangely enough, an
article from The Mirror by Liam mckernonney and an article
on The Guardian by Steven Morris. So in terms of
life history, I couldn't find much, but I got a
(03:37):
little bit of information about Jonathan. So he lived on
the Isle of Wight, he worked as a chef in
pubs on the island, and that is where he would
go on to meet his later and life partner, Marie Anne.
So I couldn't really find anything from like childhood to
(03:58):
fifty years old.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Wow, which is when he met Mary Anne.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
She worked as a bartender in the pub where he
was working in the kitchen, and the pair started dating.
As I said, when Jonathan was about fifty. Couldn't find
anything that mentioned a relationship or family before this. The
pubs that the pair worked in belonged to a man
called Jerry Smith. He was a seventy three year old businessman.
(04:24):
He owned several pubs on the island and he also
was a counselor for the area, belonging to the Conservative Party. So, oh,
so that's like local government counselor. They're not quite a
member of parliament, but they're part of the local council.
They still need to be voted in and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, I thought you meant like a counselor for like,
you know, like when you're sad. Yeah, you mean like
a government councilor yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So. Jerry and Jonathan had known each other many years
and they both became trustees of the same local charity,
which maintained community gardens for vulnerable people to enjoy, grow
their own vegetables and become involved in the upkeep. The
pair would both work in the gardens, which spread over
(05:11):
sixteen acres, so quite a substantial area. But Jonathan began
to resent Jerry, and these resentments would build up in
his mind. Jonathan believed that Jerry owed his partner Mary
Anne twenty five pound for travel expenses. He believed that
Jerry was deliberately refusing to pay her. He suspected that
(05:33):
Jerry had began dumping rubbish from his business in the
gardens and expecting other people to clean it up, and
other things just other silly things would escalate into arguments.
So Jerry was buying wood chopped from the gardens and
using them in fires in his business, and they got
(05:56):
into an argument because Jerry accused Jonathan of delivering him
firewood on purpose. So things just escalated to the point
where they really didn't like each other.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
To be fair, there is nothing worse than what firewood.
When you are reliant on firewood as a hearing source,
Oh my god, it makes so much smoke and it
is so hard to get going.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I got a bit.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I'm not saying. It's like a good reason to find.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
On a weekend in late May twenty nineteen, Jonathan, who
is now sixty years old, spent the night camping in
the gardens with mary Anne. They worked on the land
and they enjoyed camping overnight, but his anger at Jerry
was playing on his mind and he knew he was
going to see him on Monday. He messaged a few
(06:46):
of his friends offloading about his feelings and even texted
tomorrow I go to war in regard to their feud.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
On Monday, twenty seventh of me mary Anne was picked
up by a friend and driven home.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Jonathan intended to stay to do a little bit of
work around the gardens.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Before following her home on his bike.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Then Jonathan spotted Jerry coming into the gardens to work,
and all those resentments that had been building came to
a head. He picked up a chainsaw from the community
garden's hut and approached them, shouting at him. He pushed
him to the ground in a way that Jerry was
lying face down, and Jonathan started using the chainsaw on
(07:32):
Jerry's legs. Jerry was heard by witnesses pleading for his life,
and Jonathan managed to cut through partly through Jerry's legs
before the chainsaw ran out of fuel, and then he
turned Jerry over and sat on top of him and
strangled him until he died.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Jonathan was heard by witnesses shouting die, bastard, die as
he carried out his murder. So he then moved Jerry
into a bush.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
He had an alcoholic drink left over from his weekend
camping and he finished that before calling nine ninety nine.
He told operator that he had murdered a man called
Jerry White, and the operator asked if an ambulance was needed,
and Jonathan said, well, I'm going to make sure that
(08:25):
he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Need an ambulance. So he was still loud, well no, in.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
A way that implies that if there was signs of life,
then he would have killed him.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So it was like, well, I'm going to make sure
he doesn't need an ambulance.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I'm going to make I'm going to make sure that
he's that I've killed him.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay, police arrived and we're wearing body cams, so his
arrest was captured on film. On the clip, he is
initially annoyed by police pronouncing his name wrong. I mean
I probably have pronounced his name wrong, So I mean,
get annoyed at me as much as you want.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't think.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I don't think you're going to think is mad at
us right now?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Get So, he's he's quite calm when he's arrested, and
he said he understands why he's being arrested.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Obviously.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
He says that he doesn't think Jerry needs medical attention.
And the police speak amongst themselves to make sure that
the handcuffs are double locked, and Jonathan replied saying that's
a bit harsh, isn't it. No, exactly, No, he appears
quite irritated by the police's questions when they were trying
(09:35):
to locate Jerry's body, So they were asking him like,
where do we go from here?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Where where do we find it?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And he just appears really annoyed by it. It was
really weird to watch.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Was he not during like warm or colder?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
No, he wasn't quite doing that. He was just like
I've told you it's up there type thing. Or It
just was a really surreal video to watch, knowing that
this man had just murdered someone, and he just looked
so calm. He just looked like he was kind of
inconvenienced by it all.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
But he had no regrets that he's over this.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, so he was arrested and charged with Jerry's murder.
In a letter he sent to Marianne about nine days
after being arrested, he said, we had a great weekend
camping until that bastard turned up, didn't we So no
responsibility for what he did, and also kind of blaming
Jerry for it, to be fair, blaming.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Jerry for his own murder.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
He also admits that there is a lot of evidence
against him and that it doesn't look good for him,
which I mean, yeah, of course, of course, there's so
much evidence against j You literally phoned the police like
minutes after killing someone. Jonathan pled guilty initially to manslaughter
due to diminished responsibility, which I don't think was accepted
(10:53):
by the court.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
So I think he tried that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
And then they were like, now we don't accept that,
and then he went on to play guilty to murder
and he was sentenced to twenty five years in prison,
and it's highly likely.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Due to his age, that he will die there.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Mary Anne has spoken out since Jonathan has been sentenced,
saying that she.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Will stand by her man, that she wants to.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Get married to him even though he is in prison,
and that she has received abuse in the streets because she's.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Remained with him.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
That's not fair, I mean, I mean, it's not fair
that she receives abuse. She wasn't involved in his murder
at all. It isn't fair. Jerry's family are, of course devastated.
His wife delivered a victim impact statement to the court,
saying that Jerry didn't deserve to die and that knowing
what he went through is hard to bear and life
will never be normal again, which I completely understand. And
(11:45):
Jerry's son commented on the fact that Jonathan had been
one of the men that his dad had helped throughout
his life because he gave him work in the pub
and things like that, and from what I could gather,
Jerry was a really kind and generous guy. And obviously
to put in the work as accountcl and stuff like that,
I mean, that's a lot of work for the good
(12:07):
of the community. Yeah, it's a very sad case. He
was clearly an older guy. He was seventy three when
he was murdered, and just a bad way to go.
Horrible for the family and horrible for him. That's my tail.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, good one. It was good even if it was
said and horrible.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Thank you. Okay, we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I'm just clearing the last of cookie out of my.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Teeth, Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So I will start off also my sources at the end,
because that's what I do, and that's why I always forget. So.
Terry Lee Zenner was born August nineteenth, nineteen seventy seven,
to Andy and Barbara Bogel Mathis Googo Mathis's be hyphenated
in Shawnee Mission, which is in Kansas, Okay. Normal childhood,
(13:00):
she graduated high school in nineteen ninety five. She attended
Missouri Southern University, where she earned her degree in psychology
in nineteen ninety nine. Then after that she began working
towards her MBA in social work at the University of Kansas.
In May of two thousand and four, Terry married her husband,
Matthew Xenner, and they were members of Grace Baptist Church.
(13:22):
She was quite a devout person, okay, and she when
they got married, she became the stepmother to his child
from a previous relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So it was a very happy family, very church oriented,
very like community oriented. Cool. So now we talk about Andrew.
Andrew Elmaker was born in nineteen eighty seven and suffered
with a very poor mental health throughout his life. He
was diagnosed with a schizotypal ititsotypical typo. No, it wasn't typical.
(13:52):
It's typo.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That's right, right, Schizotypal is that personality?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, so typo, Yeah, that's how they put it. Or sketzoid.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, that's what I would have said, schetzoy, but whatever.
They call it. Schizotypal personality disorder, which he was medicated
for and his sort of late teens he began smoking marijuana,
which probably didn't help anything with his personality disorder, and
he was caught in possession of marijuana and put on
probation for it. Obviously, he's a teenager and you know
(14:27):
they're going to experiment whatever. But they didn't come down
too hard on him. They're just give him probation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Terry was going to school, but she was also working
for the Johnson County Mental Health Center as a social
worker while she was going to school, and everything was
kind of like a work while you learn or a situation. Yeah,
and she was assigned to Andrew's case in two thousand
and four, so she was his social worker right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Prior to two thousand and four, Andrew had been in
a special education program at his school, but for some reason,
when he ted seventeen, he was a sophomore. He should
have been a little bit higher up, but he didn't
have enough credits to graduate, so he was struggling to
get enough credits. Just for whatever reason, he probably just
struggled in school and they decided to mainstream him into
(15:14):
the general school student body, which for any child that's
got these personality issues and is used to things a
certain way, it's not going to be helpful to them.
So that August two thousand and four, Andrew had only
been in school two days before Terry visited his house,
and those two days that he had been at school
(15:36):
because it just started up for the year, he had
spent the entire time hiding in the bathroom because he
didn't want to go into the main sort of program.
It wasn't for him.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, uh huh.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So that day Terry told her husband she was stopping
by Andrew's house to make sure that he was still
taking his medication and to have him signed some paperwork.
Andrew then somehow convinced Terry to go up to his bedroom,
which you know, social workers are obviously told to stay
in common area and stuff like that. But I don't
know what he said to get her up there, but
he got her up there.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
He shut the door once they were in the bedroom
and prevented her from leaving. He had a knife with them.
They were up there for about thirty minutes before his
mother came home from the shops and she heard Terry
crying upstairs in the bedroom. Okay, so she told her
son that if he didn't let Terry out. By the
time she counted to three, she was going to call
the police on him. Okay, so she started counting. She
(16:27):
did the whole one, two, three, as parents do, and
when she got to three, Terry came running down the
stairs with blood spurting from a neck wound, and Andrew
was chasing behind her. Yeah, so he had stabbed her
in the neck. Yeah. Andrew's mother, Sue, threw herself between
her son and Terry, trying to shield Terry from the attack.
And Andrew stabbed her in the back multiple times. During
(16:51):
the attack, the knife ended up bending in her back
and he couldn't get it out it became stuck. Okay,
so this sort of gave her a chance to break
away and run to a neighbor's house to call nine one, one,
oh gosh. Once his mother was gone, Andrew went up
to his room, turned on some like really loud heavy
metal music, grabbed a chainsaw from his closet. What seventeen
(17:14):
year old doesn't have a chainsaw in their closet?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
What?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, it was brand new as well, and he began
cutting into Terry.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And she was still conscious.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It's not known if she was dead or alive at
this point. Because there was nobody there but those two, okay,
and she hasn't said so. When he was finished, he
had to stop because the chainsaw got caught up in
her hair the chain and it broke off, right, And
obviously he's seventeen, he doesn't know how to put a
chain back on a chain saw, so he got like
really frustrated with it. So by this point she was
(17:46):
more than likely dead after all that was being done
to her. He poured gasoline around the house and onto
Terry's car, but didn't light it, and the police obviously
knew who they were looking for, and they found him
quite close to his house with a couple of weapons
which weren't I mean, yeah, there was like I think
(18:08):
there was a couple of knives and an air gun,
but it wasn't like yet, he didn't have like an
arsenal with it, most just some minor weapons. They asked
him to drop the weapons, which he did complied, and
then while he was being arrested, Andrew told the officer,
I just killed my therapist with a chainsaw, right, he
just up and admitted it. Yeah, So he was charged
(18:29):
with first degree murder and aggravated battery for the attack.
On his mother. Because he was only seventeen at the
time of the murder and considered a juvenile, death penalty
would not be sought by the prosecution. Right, he was
found guilty and received life in prison with no chance
of parole for fifty years. I'm not entirely convinced on
the first degree murder. I know premeditation can take place.
(18:51):
You know, it's open to interpretation. You know, like the
first attack, Okay, maybe it wasn't premeditated, but the second
one was it because he had to think about going
upstairs to get the chainsaw. Why do you have a chainsaw?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, that's probably where they got it from.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So in the beginning I was like, I don't think
this is premeditated, but when you have a chance to
consider your actions, it actually is premeditated. Yeah, whether that
chance is five minutes or you know, a week of planning.
So yeah, he will be in prison for a minimum
of fifty years, which means that he will be sixty
seven when he is eligible for parole. Okay, yeah, because
(19:25):
they would have taken his time in jail into account.
So yeah, he'll be sixty seven and will have known
nothing basically of the outside world. Yeah, if he does
get out. And I got this from a Fox News
article from two thousand and seven, the Lawrence Journal World,
Lawrence Journal World birth Name from two thousand and seven,
(19:45):
and Profiles of Murder blog post from May of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Gosh, such a sad story, houling good one though, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Okay, this is going to be really really tough.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing. Dude, like yours
was definitely alive when he got chainsawed, So.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's something, Yes, that is something.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
That is something. He didn't get trapped in a bedroom
with a knife fielding person.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
No, he didn't. He didn't get stabbed beforehand, either.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
In the neck and then chainsawd and.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
He didn't have the terror of someone being on top
of them and getting stabbed, which is what I'm picturing.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I did not think I was gonna go with yours
when you started talking, because it was horrible, and I
got the stomach echs, you know, like when you tell me.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Goes no, uh huh.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And now I'm completely flipping my attitude and I'm going
with yours.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yeah, I've been thinking that way as well. Actually, both
of them are horrible. Absolutely, Oh yeah, just really really bad.
I think also the fact that he was seventy four. Yeah,
you know, he'd lived quite a really good life. And
nobody deserves to go out like that, you know, no
matter what age they are, no matter what life they've had.
(21:19):
But just to try and differentiate between the two of them,
you know, you would rather go out at seventy four
than you would you know, a young age like her.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
She was just starting out with a young family.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean, no doubt they would have had their own kids.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And oh sorry I thought that she had kids.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
My bad, but she was a stepmom. He had a
child from a previous relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Or stepmom, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
But they would have gone on to have their own
no doubt. And they were you know, they have this
lovely family, and it's a shame. Yeah, she was robbed
of the future and her husband as well as like
her widower. I suppose now is campaigning really hard for
better laws on training for social because you know, like
she should have never gone up to that bedroom and
(22:05):
not victim blameing, but she should have been trained properly
to not ever do that under no circumstances do you
do that? Yeah, but she wasn't. She didn't receive that training.
So yeah, he's.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Campaigning didn't get any training.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Well, she got.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Training, just not yeah, you know, as specific as that.
So yeah, he's campaigning really hard for better training for
social workers.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Okay, well that's that's something positive. Yeah, but no, I agree.
I think I would pick my case agreeing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yes, we are. Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I kind of suspected that we were going to have
to disagree and get producer Craig and to break.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
The tie, but not this week. Maybe in the in
the next few weeks we'll get that.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
No glory for you, Producer Craig, No glory.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you all for listening.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
If you've enjoyed this podcast or enjoyed any of our
other episodes, if you give us a little rate and
review on iTunes or whatever you're listening.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Also, if you subscribe, that would be lovely.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And if you feel like your friends and family would enjoy,
let them know recommend us to people.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
That would be really helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Thank you, It is helpful, especially the iTunes reviews. Also
really helpful to us on a little charts. Yeah, and
just get in touch on Instagram or Twitter. We're at
which Murderer Facebook page.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Facebook group brilliant and we will see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
We will goodbye bye.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Moderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at Whichmurderer
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(23:50):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
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Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Her artwork was
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com.
If you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
A good afternoon, Holly, good.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Afternoon, Gemma.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I should have been looking at you, fine, I was distracted.
I was looking at the stuff that we need to
do and not looking at you. And then I was like, oh, hello, hello,
Yes we talked to each other on this podcast. Yeah, yeah,
I'm fine. It's a weekend afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Look at us, I know, look at us.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'm good, thank you, I'm fine. Just getting on.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Work's been really busy, so yeah, just getting on with stuff.
That's all we can really do.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
We are a witch murderer.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
We are, we are, and we've got some shout outs.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We do we did. Do you want to go first?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Yeah? Okay, So first shadow is for mister c. K.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Rocks.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
He is His band is Battalion of Flies. They're dropping
an album soon. But he recommended us on his Instagram,
which is cool. Oh nice, I know, it was really cute.
It was nice. Thank you. And then we got a
recommendation on Facebook from Dave Burns, who was just basically
saying that we're entertaining I got, and that the cases
(01:36):
we pick are interesting and make you realize that there
are some strange people out there, not just the Canadians,
and he said keeping coming, ladies. So yeah, that was
very nice.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Even including this slide dick for the Canadians. It was
very nice.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, No, did noted.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And I wanted to shout to Natalie she san as
a on Instagram. I think she laughed quite a lot
at you being out of the loop, Polly on Fox
Catcher being a movie, and she says that the highlight
of our week when our episodes drop, and even her
(02:14):
kids are getting into it and listening. So that's really
nice to hear.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I'm old.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So like the last time I saw her kids, I
swear to god, one of them was still in diapers.
I mean I think they were little anyway, I mean
little little. And the fact that they're now listening to
me talk about murder is disturbing.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Hi, kids, remember me, Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Did people loo? And all the other stuff I talk
about that you should be listening to.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Just having a slight break down there over time, But
we're fine.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm fine, Everything's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
So this week we are speaking about murders that involved
chain saws, and I'm speaking first, and I am talking
about a person called Jonathan Stasiuk Stasiuk, I think that's right.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I had to go to quite a few different sources
for this.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So there was a BBC article that I looked at
that I couldn't see an author for, strangely enough, an
article from The Mirror by Liam mckernonney and an article
on The Guardian by Steven Morris. So in terms of
life history, I couldn't find much, but I got a
(03:37):
little bit of information about Jonathan. So he lived on
the Isle of Wight, he worked as a chef in
pubs on the island, and that is where he would
go on to meet his later and life partner, Marie Anne.
So I couldn't really find anything from like childhood to
(03:58):
fifty years old.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Wow, which is when he met Mary Anne.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
She worked as a bartender in the pub where he
was working in the kitchen, and the pair started dating.
As I said, when Jonathan was about fifty. Couldn't find
anything that mentioned a relationship or family before this. The
pubs that the pair worked in belonged to a man
called Jerry Smith. He was a seventy three year old businessman.
(04:24):
He owned several pubs on the island and he also
was a counselor for the area, belonging to the Conservative Party. So, oh,
so that's like local government counselor. They're not quite a
member of parliament, but they're part of the local council.
They still need to be voted in and things like that.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, I thought you meant like a counselor for like,
you know, like when you're sad. Yeah, you mean like
a government councilor yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
So. Jerry and Jonathan had known each other many years
and they both became trustees of the same local charity,
which maintained community gardens for vulnerable people to enjoy, grow
their own vegetables and become involved in the upkeep. The
pair would both work in the gardens, which spread over
(05:11):
sixteen acres, so quite a substantial area. But Jonathan began
to resent Jerry, and these resentments would build up in
his mind. Jonathan believed that Jerry owed his partner Mary
Anne twenty five pound for travel expenses. He believed that
Jerry was deliberately refusing to pay her. He suspected that
(05:33):
Jerry had began dumping rubbish from his business in the
gardens and expecting other people to clean it up, and
other things just other silly things would escalate into arguments.
So Jerry was buying wood chopped from the gardens and
using them in fires in his business, and they got
(05:56):
into an argument because Jerry accused Jonathan of delivering him
firewood on purpose. So things just escalated to the point
where they really didn't like each other.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
To be fair, there is nothing worse than what firewood.
When you are reliant on firewood as a hearing source,
Oh my god, it makes so much smoke and it
is so hard to get going.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I got a bit.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
I'm not saying. It's like a good reason to find.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
On a weekend in late May twenty nineteen, Jonathan, who
is now sixty years old, spent the night camping in
the gardens with mary Anne. They worked on the land
and they enjoyed camping overnight, but his anger at Jerry
was playing on his mind and he knew he was
going to see him on Monday. He messaged a few
(06:46):
of his friends offloading about his feelings and even texted
tomorrow I go to war in regard to their feud.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
On Monday, twenty seventh of me mary Anne was picked
up by a friend and driven home.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Jonathan intended to stay to do a little bit of
work around the gardens.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Before following her home on his bike.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
Then Jonathan spotted Jerry coming into the gardens to work,
and all those resentments that had been building came to
a head. He picked up a chainsaw from the community
garden's hut and approached them, shouting at him. He pushed
him to the ground in a way that Jerry was
lying face down, and Jonathan started using the chainsaw on
(07:32):
Jerry's legs. Jerry was heard by witnesses pleading for his life,
and Jonathan managed to cut through partly through Jerry's legs
before the chainsaw ran out of fuel, and then he
turned Jerry over and sat on top of him and
strangled him until he died.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Jonathan was heard by witnesses shouting die, bastard, die as
he carried out his murder. So he then moved Jerry
into a bush.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
He had an alcoholic drink left over from his weekend
camping and he finished that before calling nine ninety nine.
He told operator that he had murdered a man called
Jerry White, and the operator asked if an ambulance was needed,
and Jonathan said, well, I'm going to make sure that
(08:25):
he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Need an ambulance. So he was still loud, well no, in.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
A way that implies that if there was signs of life,
then he would have killed him.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So it was like, well, I'm going to make sure
he doesn't need an ambulance.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I'm going to make I'm going to make sure that
he's that I've killed him.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Okay, police arrived and we're wearing body cams, so his
arrest was captured on film. On the clip, he is
initially annoyed by police pronouncing his name wrong. I mean
I probably have pronounced his name wrong, So I mean,
get annoyed at me as much as you want.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't think.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
I don't think you're going to think is mad at
us right now?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Get So, he's he's quite calm when he's arrested, and
he said he understands why he's being arrested.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Obviously.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
He says that he doesn't think Jerry needs medical attention.
And the police speak amongst themselves to make sure that
the handcuffs are double locked, and Jonathan replied saying that's
a bit harsh, isn't it. No, exactly, No, he appears
quite irritated by the police's questions when they were trying
(09:35):
to locate Jerry's body, So they were asking him like,
where do we go from here?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Where where do we find it?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And he just appears really annoyed by it. It was
really weird to watch.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Was he not during like warm or colder?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
No, he wasn't quite doing that. He was just like
I've told you it's up there type thing. Or It
just was a really surreal video to watch, knowing that
this man had just murdered someone, and he just looked
so calm. He just looked like he was kind of
inconvenienced by it all.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
But he had no regrets that he's over this.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
No, so he was arrested and charged with Jerry's murder.
In a letter he sent to Marianne about nine days
after being arrested, he said, we had a great weekend
camping until that bastard turned up, didn't we So no
responsibility for what he did, and also kind of blaming
Jerry for it, to be fair, blaming.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Jerry for his own murder.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
He also admits that there is a lot of evidence
against him and that it doesn't look good for him,
which I mean, yeah, of course, of course, there's so
much evidence against j You literally phoned the police like
minutes after killing someone. Jonathan pled guilty initially to manslaughter
due to diminished responsibility, which I don't think was accepted
(10:53):
by the court.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
So I think he tried that.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
And then they were like, now we don't accept that,
and then he went on to play guilty to murder
and he was sentenced to twenty five years in prison,
and it's highly likely.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Due to his age, that he will die there.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Mary Anne has spoken out since Jonathan has been sentenced,
saying that she.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Will stand by her man, that she wants to.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Get married to him even though he is in prison,
and that she has received abuse in the streets because she's.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Remained with him.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
That's not fair, I mean, I mean, it's not fair
that she receives abuse. She wasn't involved in his murder
at all. It isn't fair. Jerry's family are, of course devastated.
His wife delivered a victim impact statement to the court,
saying that Jerry didn't deserve to die and that knowing
what he went through is hard to bear and life
will never be normal again, which I completely understand. And
(11:45):
Jerry's son commented on the fact that Jonathan had been
one of the men that his dad had helped throughout
his life because he gave him work in the pub
and things like that, and from what I could gather,
Jerry was a really kind and generous guy. And obviously
to put in the work as accountcl and stuff like that,
I mean, that's a lot of work for the good
(12:07):
of the community. Yeah, it's a very sad case. He
was clearly an older guy. He was seventy three when
he was murdered, and just a bad way to go.
Horrible for the family and horrible for him. That's my tail.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Well, good one. It was good even if it was
said and horrible.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Thank you. Okay, we're back.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
I'm just clearing the last of cookie out of my.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Teeth, Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
So I will start off also my sources at the end,
because that's what I do, and that's why I always forget. So.
Terry Lee Zenner was born August nineteenth, nineteen seventy seven,
to Andy and Barbara Bogel Mathis Googo Mathis's be hyphenated
in Shawnee Mission, which is in Kansas, Okay. Normal childhood,
(13:00):
she graduated high school in nineteen ninety five. She attended
Missouri Southern University, where she earned her degree in psychology
in nineteen ninety nine. Then after that she began working
towards her MBA in social work at the University of Kansas.
In May of two thousand and four, Terry married her husband,
Matthew Xenner, and they were members of Grace Baptist Church.
(13:22):
She was quite a devout person, okay, and she when
they got married, she became the stepmother to his child
from a previous relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
So it was a very happy family, very church oriented,
very like community oriented. Cool. So now we talk about Andrew.
Andrew Elmaker was born in nineteen eighty seven and suffered
with a very poor mental health throughout his life. He
was diagnosed with a schizotypal ititsotypical typo. No, it wasn't typical.
(13:52):
It's typo.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That's right, right, Schizotypal is that personality?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, so typo, Yeah, that's how they put it. Or sketzoid.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, that's what I would have said, schetzoy, but whatever.
They call it. Schizotypal personality disorder, which he was medicated
for and his sort of late teens he began smoking marijuana,
which probably didn't help anything with his personality disorder, and
he was caught in possession of marijuana and put on
probation for it. Obviously, he's a teenager and you know
(14:27):
they're going to experiment whatever. But they didn't come down
too hard on him. They're just give him probation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Terry was going to school, but she was also working
for the Johnson County Mental Health Center as a social
worker while she was going to school, and everything was
kind of like a work while you learn or a situation. Yeah,
and she was assigned to Andrew's case in two thousand
and four, so she was his social worker right.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Prior to two thousand and four, Andrew had been in
a special education program at his school, but for some reason,
when he ted seventeen, he was a sophomore. He should
have been a little bit higher up, but he didn't
have enough credits to graduate, so he was struggling to
get enough credits. Just for whatever reason, he probably just
struggled in school and they decided to mainstream him into
(15:14):
the general school student body, which for any child that's
got these personality issues and is used to things a
certain way, it's not going to be helpful to them.
So that August two thousand and four, Andrew had only
been in school two days before Terry visited his house,
and those two days that he had been at school
(15:36):
because it just started up for the year, he had
spent the entire time hiding in the bathroom because he
didn't want to go into the main sort of program.
It wasn't for him.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, uh huh.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
So that day Terry told her husband she was stopping
by Andrew's house to make sure that he was still
taking his medication and to have him signed some paperwork.
Andrew then somehow convinced Terry to go up to his bedroom,
which you know, social workers are obviously told to stay
in common area and stuff like that. But I don't
know what he said to get her up there, but
he got her up there.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
He shut the door once they were in the bedroom
and prevented her from leaving. He had a knife with them.
They were up there for about thirty minutes before his
mother came home from the shops and she heard Terry
crying upstairs in the bedroom. Okay, so she told her
son that if he didn't let Terry out. By the
time she counted to three, she was going to call
the police on him. Okay, so she started counting. She
(16:27):
did the whole one, two, three, as parents do, and
when she got to three, Terry came running down the
stairs with blood spurting from a neck wound, and Andrew
was chasing behind her. Yeah, so he had stabbed her
in the neck. Yeah. Andrew's mother, Sue, threw herself between
her son and Terry, trying to shield Terry from the attack.
And Andrew stabbed her in the back multiple times. During
(16:51):
the attack, the knife ended up bending in her back
and he couldn't get it out it became stuck. Okay,
so this sort of gave her a chance to break
away and run to a neighbor's house to call nine one, one,
oh gosh. Once his mother was gone, Andrew went up
to his room, turned on some like really loud heavy
metal music, grabbed a chainsaw from his closet. What seventeen
(17:14):
year old doesn't have a chainsaw in their closet?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
What?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, it was brand new as well, and he began
cutting into Terry.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And she was still conscious.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
It's not known if she was dead or alive at
this point. Because there was nobody there but those two, okay,
and she hasn't said so. When he was finished, he
had to stop because the chainsaw got caught up in
her hair the chain and it broke off, right, And
obviously he's seventeen, he doesn't know how to put a
chain back on a chain saw, so he got like
really frustrated with it. So by this point she was
(17:46):
more than likely dead after all that was being done
to her. He poured gasoline around the house and onto
Terry's car, but didn't light it, and the police obviously
knew who they were looking for, and they found him
quite close to his house with a couple of weapons
which weren't I mean, yeah, there was like I think
(18:08):
there was a couple of knives and an air gun,
but it wasn't like yet, he didn't have like an
arsenal with it, most just some minor weapons. They asked
him to drop the weapons, which he did complied, and
then while he was being arrested, Andrew told the officer,
I just killed my therapist with a chainsaw, right, he
just up and admitted it. Yeah, So he was charged
(18:29):
with first degree murder and aggravated battery for the attack.
On his mother. Because he was only seventeen at the
time of the murder and considered a juvenile, death penalty
would not be sought by the prosecution. Right, he was
found guilty and received life in prison with no chance
of parole for fifty years. I'm not entirely convinced on
the first degree murder. I know premeditation can take place.
(18:51):
You know, it's open to interpretation. You know, like the
first attack, Okay, maybe it wasn't premeditated, but the second
one was it because he had to think about going
upstairs to get the chainsaw. Why do you have a chainsaw?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yeah, that's probably where they got it from.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So in the beginning I was like, I don't think
this is premeditated, but when you have a chance to
consider your actions, it actually is premeditated. Yeah, whether that
chance is five minutes or you know, a week of planning.
So yeah, he will be in prison for a minimum
of fifty years, which means that he will be sixty
seven when he is eligible for parole. Okay, yeah, because
(19:25):
they would have taken his time in jail into account.
So yeah, he'll be sixty seven and will have known
nothing basically of the outside world. Yeah, if he does
get out. And I got this from a Fox News
article from two thousand and seven, the Lawrence Journal World,
Lawrence Journal World birth Name from two thousand and seven,
(19:45):
and Profiles of Murder blog post from May of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Gosh, such a sad story, houling good one though, thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Okay, this is going to be really really tough.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing. Dude, like yours
was definitely alive when he got chainsawed, So.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
That's something, Yes, that is something.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
That is something. He didn't get trapped in a bedroom
with a knife fielding person.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
No, he didn't. He didn't get stabbed beforehand, either.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
In the neck and then chainsawd and.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
He didn't have the terror of someone being on top
of them and getting stabbed, which is what I'm picturing.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I did not think I was gonna go with yours
when you started talking, because it was horrible, and I
got the stomach echs, you know, like when you tell me.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Goes no, uh huh.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And now I'm completely flipping my attitude and I'm going
with yours.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yeah, I've been thinking that way as well. Actually, both
of them are horrible. Absolutely, Oh yeah, just really really bad.
I think also the fact that he was seventy four. Yeah,
you know, he'd lived quite a really good life. And
nobody deserves to go out like that, you know, no
matter what age they are, no matter what life they've had.
(21:19):
But just to try and differentiate between the two of them,
you know, you would rather go out at seventy four
than you would you know, a young age like her.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
She was just starting out with a young family.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean, no doubt they would have had their own kids.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And oh sorry I thought that she had kids.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
My bad, but she was a stepmom. He had a
child from a previous relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Or stepmom, that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
But they would have gone on to have their own
no doubt. And they were you know, they have this
lovely family, and it's a shame. Yeah, she was robbed
of the future and her husband as well as like
her widower. I suppose now is campaigning really hard for
better laws on training for social because you know, like
she should have never gone up to that bedroom and
(22:05):
not victim blameing, but she should have been trained properly
to not ever do that under no circumstances do you
do that? Yeah, but she wasn't. She didn't receive that training.
So yeah, he's.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Campaigning didn't get any training.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Well, she got.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Training, just not yeah, you know, as specific as that.
So yeah, he's campaigning really hard for better training for
social workers.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Okay, well that's that's something positive. Yeah, but no, I agree.
I think I would pick my case agreeing.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Yes, we are. Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I kind of suspected that we were going to have
to disagree and get producer Craig and to break.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
The tie, but not this week. Maybe in the in
the next few weeks we'll get that.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
No glory for you, Producer Craig, No glory.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Thank you all for listening.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
If you've enjoyed this podcast or enjoyed any of our
other episodes, if you give us a little rate and
review on iTunes or whatever you're listening.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Also, if you subscribe, that would be lovely.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
And if you feel like your friends and family would enjoy,
let them know recommend us to people.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
That would be really helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Thank you, It is helpful, especially the iTunes reviews. Also
really helpful to us on a little charts. Yeah, and
just get in touch on Instagram or Twitter. We're at
which Murderer Facebook page.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Facebook group brilliant and we will see you all next week.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
We will goodbye bye.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Moderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at Whichmurderer
dot com. We are also on Instagram, read it at Twitter,
just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(23:50):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
group interacting with our listeners or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Her artwork was
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com.
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