February 21, 2025 • 36 mins
Which Murderer Flashback Episode!
In Which Murderer’s Episode 41 Season 5 the girls cover chilling cases of Children Who Murder. Holly starts us off with the shocking case of Alyssa Bustamonte before Mel goes into the unbelievable murder by Amarjeet Sada.
Shoutout to Saraid for the suggestion! Blink twice if you are in danger.
In this episode you will go around the world with a tour of German foods (that actually aren’t German) and apologies to India…again. Mel gets pretty mad at numbers, you will get education you didn’t ask for…or possibly want…on the Seven Wonders of the World and there is a big Charles Bronson debrief.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who is currently speaking to Consulting Producer Craig in broken German about editing all the episodes for the rest of his life.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Mel while Consulting Producer Craig hires a translator to make his wishes extra clear to Holly.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
In Which Murderer’s Episode 41 Season 5 the girls cover chilling cases of Children Who Murder. Holly starts us off with the shocking case of Alyssa Bustamonte before Mel goes into the unbelievable murder by Amarjeet Sada.
Shoutout to Saraid for the suggestion! Blink twice if you are in danger.
In this episode you will go around the world with a tour of German foods (that actually aren’t German) and apologies to India…again. Mel gets pretty mad at numbers, you will get education you didn’t ask for…or possibly want…on the Seven Wonders of the World and there is a big Charles Bronson debrief.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who is currently speaking to Consulting Producer Craig in broken German about editing all the episodes for the rest of his life.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Mel while Consulting Producer Craig hires a translator to make his wishes extra clear to Holly.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
If you like, Hello mel, Hello Holly. How are you?
I am well? How are you good? I am also well,
I'm just cold? Yeah, me too. Wait, which murderer we
are with a phrasing podcast? I just I don't know
(00:34):
what it is. But I don't know if I don't,
I'm just so cold all the time. Yeah. But do
you think her temperature has dropped? Well?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It has because I got my snow warning on my
car driving through Oh did you Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Because normally by novel it's now March. It's just the
beginning of March at the time of recording. This episode
doesn't go out for another few weeks. But I am
touching wood and everything when I say this. But where
I live, Beby, is always the month of heavy snow,
and it has not been a drop. There's been a
lot in Canada. I think they might have gotten it
(01:07):
for us.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Oh really, or it's coming later, which is just tragic.
So if it snows later than March.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
The winter's actually not been that bad, which makes me
think shit away in for a horrid summer. I hope
not what that means, I don't know. I just think
I think we just think that because we think, do
you know what we'll meet do with awful winters if
we get a decent summer. Yeah, in the last few
summers have actually been all right.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
All right, nothing beats the pandemic summer. That was an
amazing summer.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
God. Yeah, but yeah, I'm just so cold all the time.
But maybe that's the weather or maybe that's my age.
Who knows. And you're just back from your travels. I
am Germany. Yeah, had a quite a nice time in Hamburg. Hi,
Geminyhi Germany when it's listening. Yeah, I hurt myself like
(01:56):
the second.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Day there, huh. Classically that's a collie. I survived the
cobbles of Edinburgh, and like there's a centimeter gap on
a flat paving stone and I just I was in trainers,
that was in proper walking shoes, and my lit just
went over and my ankle went right under, and I
heard the snap.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I was like, that's not good. And that was
day two. I was like, yeah, it was day two
and he has another few days to go after that. Yeah,
so I've just been walking on it whatever. Yeah, you know,
not much choice, how much choice? That's clearly not broken.
What was your favorite favorite gem and drink or food?
Or did you discover any new ones? Oh, I discovered.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This this and I don't know what word to use
because everybody's so weird about it. Pop soda, fizzy drink,
fizzy juice, coke like thing called mezzi. Obviously it's not new,
but it's new to me. And it's like so Edinburgh
Airport has it in the Burger King.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I'm gonna try that.
So when you get different flavors, so it's just one flavor,
I think.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You can get it like you know, like there's a
cherry do you ss a e?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Do you think I've seen that? It's hard to describe.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It's like maybe a combination of Dr Pepper and coke.
Oh right, okay, it was maybe a bit citrus and
there too.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I can't even like a massive fan of coke, ze
and coke, not a fan of Doctor Peper. Doctor Pepper
gives me time, egge, no idea? Why but it does. No,
I'm not not to have fun, but I'd like to
try it. Yeah. So that was like, so it's German. No, right, okay,
you just discovered it in Germany.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, well I discovered at the airport and then it
was all over Germany, and I was like, yes, do
you know what it's not in Germany?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Though? Well, couldn't find pepsi no way. Yeah, what the
Germans got against pepsi? I don't know. It might not
be all Germans, but I couldn't find one in Hamburg.
What's weird? It was so weird. And what about foods,
any new foods? Because I do like the German I
love like when we went to I think, I think
(04:01):
I've only been to Berlin and there'd been more than
one place in Germany. But I loved the little street
vendors and stuff like different vanieties of German sauceage and stuff. Lovely.
They didn't have anything like that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Hamburg is a little bit more hoidy toydy. So it
was the first night there. Ordered a Domino's through Justy.
It didn't show up. I was raging and you paid
for it. Yeah, but it was German just eat, so
I had to write all my rage mail in German.
Oh no, it's so frustrating. But they refunded it. But
(04:32):
deneat that night because it got in so late. Okay,
I found a little Italian across the road. There's quite
a few Italians actually in Germany, and yeah, it was
the best Italian I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh my god, what did you get? I got?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
The first night, we got a calzoni and it was
like spinach and mushroom and ham and tomato, sauce and cheese,
but all made like right in front of you, and
it was massive, amazing. And then we went there for
my birthday dinner and had noki with fortune sauce. Oh cool,
but they have like chunks of cheese in the sauce.
I was like, this is heaven, heaven, heaven awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And you turned your grand old age in Hamburg? I did.
I turned old and I had a lovely time. Yes,
and you have come back at different age, And how
are we feeling about that? Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I don't even think about it because all I think
about is Hamburg, which is why I always go away
for my birthday. Yes, it doesn't actually feel like I'm
older because I was away for it.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, I've been away from mine and I don't get that.
Oh really, No, maybe don't talk to yourself enough.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I talk to myself into believing it it's true.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I Yeah, I've been away from mine quite a few times.
But I don't know, I don't get that feeling much.
But I don't really I don't really care that much
about birthdays now.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Oh no, I like my birthday week. I like my
birthday week. Is my birthday week because I'm Sonia Christmas.
It's just like a oh yeah, yours is really busy.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It's good because I don't really get to think about
birthday so much getting old today. What are we doing
children that kill? Yes? And this was suggested by our
lovely listeners Zara Hello, Zara Hello. I'm a little concerned
about her.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Because her last one was like kicking murders, and you're like,
when she's cooking for her children and now she's doing
children that kill.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
She just likes to think about murder quite oh and
a free time and that's okay. Oh no, that's okay.
I'm like, she's a very good mum to our four children.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I know, but like maybe she suspects her four children
of being serial killers.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I don't know, maybe this is a cry for help.
I think she's just like she just really likes murder,
and she she messages me loads of like cases that
she hears of, like up here, that I've never heard of.
What is this? So it's so interesting, but Zara has recommended,
recommended is that night word suggested, that's the word children
(07:02):
that murder? And we have to give a shout out
to our lovely listener from Ohio. And maybe we've got
more than one, but we only correspond with one. Yeah,
Emma Joe who sent us an email days ago with
a shit ton of suggestions.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It was Hello, I'm like mel list it is.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
There's loads. Yeah, some of them have covered as explained
in my email back to it. We've covered some, but
I've kind of tweaked that we can kind of do
them again. Yeah, so our spreadsheet is full for the
rest of season five and full of season six. Season
six is done now taking suggestions for season seven. Amazing.
Thank you for not making us work. Thank you very
(07:44):
much everybody. They've been so good to the suggestions and
keep them coming because they will never turn them away
ever ever, Ever. No, even if we're talking about season
ten and we're only on season eight. It's fine. Yeah,
it's absolutely fine. I'm all for it means we don't
have to think, which quite frankly, most times right now,
I'm totally incapable of a challenge.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It is a challenge women of a certain age and
brain fog.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
We are in the fog. Brain fog is not to
be laughed at. It's real and it is like horrible. Yeah,
when you're just like I know the name of this thing,
but I just cannot think of it. And it takes
ages of the light bulb moment, like ages, and I
sit and think about like I know this, and I
sit and thinking about like things to promptly like help me,
(08:27):
like and I get nothing. Oh, I'm yeah, it's really bad.
It's horrid. It's really bad. But yes, there's a lot
to be said for it, and it's not to be
laughed at, so no one can laugh as please. Yeah,
of the probably will children that kill? Who's first? I'm first?
You're always first. I'm not. You are I sit here
to have to wait every single week?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well maybe it's because we're recorded for every week and
that's how numbers work.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I don't know. I'm like, is it my jad? Do
you really want to go first? No, it's okay, I'm fine,
Hell all right? Children that kill Alyssa Dailean Bustamante. That
is a fabulous name. Isn't it. It's a really good one.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Was born the twentieth of January nineteen ninety four in
a small town named Saint Martin's, Missouri. So she was
born the or before I graduated. That's depressing under.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The nineties, which is also based Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'm trying to think what happened in ninety four. I
think that was the year my brother was born.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh God, good music. Good music is in the nineties
or late nineties music. Yeah, ninety eighties, nineties is also good.
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
She was the oldest of four, and in two thousand
and two, when she was eight, her religious grandparents took
custody of all four kids due to their mother's addiction issues.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh it was for the best.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and under the circumstances, their father was serving a
ten year prison sentence for assault, so it was all
on the mother and she had addiction problems, so she
couldn't care for the kids.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah. Well, beta, then, oh, you would think.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
While Alissa was a bright student, she suffered psychological difficulties
and was known to self harm and had attempted suicide
in two thousand and seven at the age of thirteen.
Oh wow, Yeah, she really struggled. And I mean, we
don't know what happened to her before the age of
Ada either, like something. There may have been things going on,
especially from other had addictions. Yeah, this is when friends
(10:27):
started noticing changes in her. Alissa's social media accounts reflected
her dark thoughts under hobbies. On her YouTube account, she
listed cutting as a hobby, so it's a pretty big
cry for help. She regularly went with her grandparents to church,
and they were members of the Church of Latter day Saints.
Oh sorry for Latter Day Saints listeners, but yeah, we
(10:52):
did Mormon Murders and you know so, And I've just.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Watched that show as well, and it stratified me forever.
Oh under the banner, but it's so good. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Four houses down from Melissa lived nine year old Elizabeth Olton.
Elizabeth was a shy girl who loved cats, the color pink,
and wearing dresses. On the twenty first of October two
thousand and nine, Elizabeth was playing at a friend's house
and when it was time to go home, she set off.
She still hadn't arrived home from like a pretty short
(11:25):
walk forty five minutes later, and her mother called the
police right away. So small town, very reliable child, not
far away. Yeah yeah, so she knew something wasn't right.
When the search began with police and volunteers, it was
dark and raining. They searched the nearby woods with dogs, firefighters, police, helicopters, FBI,
and highway patrol all showed up immediately, but they didn't
(11:51):
find her. By the next morning, the battery on her
phone had died, and that they'd sort of been trying
to like triangulate with her phone, but it died by
the next morning, so she couldn't be trapped. Details and
rumors began to spread in the small town. People mentioned
Elissa's name. She didn't show up for school the day
after the disappearance, and police gathered some written evidence that
(12:13):
made her a person of interest. So again small town
people were like, have you looked at this person? Have
you looked at that person? And Elissa's name came up,
and then police still a little digging, and they were like,
hold on, like we need to look closer.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The friend that Elizabeth little Girl had been playing with
was Alissa's six year old half sister, so her half
sister lived in another house. Maybe it was like her
father's child or something. I don't know. Yeah, but her
half sister lived down the road, and that was the
little girl that Elizabeth was playing with.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Alisa had called Elizabeth, the nine year old on her
mobile phone and told her to come to her house
or that she like, instead of going home from her sister,
stepsister or half sister's house. She called her and told
her to come over to her house and then she
led the young girl into the woods from there. A
(13:12):
week prior, Alissa had dug two graves in the woods,
so one percent planned. Some speculated it was for her
twin brothers. That's why she dug two.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
She also mentioned to a friend she wondered what it
would be like to kill someone, so the friend set
that to the police. Once in the woods with Elizabeth,
Alyssa beat the young girl, strangled her and stabbed her
and then slit her throat. So this is a thirteen
year old doing this to a nine year old, isn't
a horrible She then buried her in one of the
(13:47):
graves she had dug and returned home to write in her.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Diary, no diaries diaries, and.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
She wrote, I just fucking killed someone. I strangled them
and slit their throats and stabbed them.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Now dead.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I don't know how to feel at the moment. Atm
it was abbreviated. It was amazing with an h. As
soon as you get over the oh my god, I
can't do this feeling, it's pretty enjoyable. I'm kind of
nervous and shaking though right now. Okay, I got to
go to church now.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Lol.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So really really wedding, it's pretty detached from Yeah, Alyssa
took like she she didn't really hide it after. I mean,
she buried the body, but she didn't hide it when
she was being interviewed. So Alyssa took police to the
body of Elizabeth and confessed. She was taken into custody
but hospitalized for psychological treatment.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah. I think that's definitely need Oh definitely.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
She's self harmed and had thoughts of suicide still and
while she was in custody, so that's why they took
her to the hospital. Alyssa's initial plea in two thousand
and nine was not guilty, but over two years later,
in twenty twelve, she pled guilty to second degree murder
and armed criminal acts. She received life with the possibility
of parol. So by the time she went to trial,
(15:06):
she was like fifteen sixteen.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, but she was.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Tried as an adult. Oh so she got life without
or sorry, life with the Possibility of Pearl, which I
think it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Must have been sixteen. Then she's tried as an adult.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Oh no in States, they tried them twelve thirteen. Yeah, yeah,
well no, because they're not adults. Like I'm too, completely
against it. I'm completely against it, but whatever. So, yeah,
she will eventually be up for parol probably, I don't
know when she'll be actually up for rurle. I didn't
(15:38):
write down where I got this from. That's interesting, just
make up. I got this from blood, but blood dot
com that's the excellent website.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It is so good and reliable. Nice one, Thank you,
and we're back. We are back. And I am firstly
going to apologize to the whole of India. Oh no,
because I'm about to say names of people and place
names which are probably not accurate. I will, I will.
(16:14):
She's like literally lying back now, she's a little cigar,
got a cocktail in her hand. Yeah no, but I'll
give it a go, and I'm sure India will respect
me for that. Even if I get it's horribly wrong.
If they don't, who knows, we'll get so my children.
Who murder is a young guy called Amarjit Sada. It
(16:36):
was born in nineteen ninety eight in the village of
musha har and b Har, India. I think that, yeah,
I'll looked at you with a smile, like what do
you think? Yeah? I think very well, because I'm not
an expert and I don't speak Indian. Soap okay, thumbs up,
thumbs up. Amarjit is believed to have murdered three people,
(16:58):
including family members, by the time he was eight years old.
Oh my god and set in separate instance between two
thousand and six and two thousand and seven. The sadistic
youth reportedly kicked his verse victim when he was just
aged just seven, and to date he holds the infamous
title of being the world's youngest serial killer. Oh my god,
(17:18):
who did he kill? He's seven? Well? Yeah hm. Little
is known about his background, but it's understood that he
was born into a poor family and his father worked
as a laborer. In two thousand and six, he allegedly
murdered a six year old cousin, the daughter of his uncle,
it's thought he also killed his own baby sister, who
was only eight months old. Oh my god. His last
(17:40):
victim was even younger, a six month old baby girl
called Cushbou who lived in the neighborhood. So this is
all when he's like six, seven and eight, Oh my god,
which is pretty horrific. But her mother told the police
that she'd left the child sleeping alone at a primary
school when she went off to do some chores, and
when she returned, her baby was missing, and a search
(18:02):
was soon launched. However, a few hours later, Amerjee freely
admitted to police that he took little girl, hit her
with bricks, and strangled her to death. This is a
this is the sixth month old baby girl. That is
so wrong. So how like, how is it possible to
have those thoughts at such a young age?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I also do I understand why the mother just left
her baby prim school. Yeah, it seems a bit weird,
but I don't know how it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Works there terrifying that such young age is this little
thing is just like going out and killing people. He
then led villagers to where he attempted to bury the
baby in a new byfield, and, according to Amergee's uncle.
Some of his family supposedly knew about the first two killings,
but they were left unreported because they were family matters
(18:48):
and inverted commas family matters. So I'm sorry, but if
you know, if you've got someone that young that's killing
member of the family, then they're going to kill more people.
You've got to police and authority. Surely.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
So.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Was he living with his parents, Yeah, it's fair than you,
and he's killing members of his family, but they're all
keeping it hush hush wows. No, it's not cool. The
police took Amorgate into custody, where he depostedly, smiled a
lot and showed no remorse after admitting he murdered his
sister a few months earlier and his cousin the year before.
(19:24):
One inspector on the case said all the killings were
similar in execution. Right at the time of his capture,
one psychologist called him as sages to derise pleasure from
inflicting injuries. Another said there is no sense of right
or wrong at all, and they never came across anyone
with such, with no moral compass as such. Even obviously
(19:44):
these psychologists are more so trained to deal with adults. Yeah,
and They always a deal with adults most of their
work in life, but they could not believe that they'd
come across someone that was like they'd seem more adults
like with it would show remorse. This kid was just
like at six and seven, though, do they even understand? Dad?
You know he'd done wrong? Surely you know you've done wrong,
(20:06):
but do you understand like the permanence of death. I
don't know that. How have you got thoughts at that
age to want to kill someone?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It's going to be something going on at the house, then.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, it's really It really disturbs me. In India, a
child cannot be jailed or sending to death under Indian law,
which is good. So amerg was thought to have been
detained in a children's hospital, a children's hospital, a children's
home in the town of munger and b Hart until
he was eighteen. Okay, he's understood to have been released
in twenty sixteen and his current whereabouts are unknown. Oh
(20:38):
that's scary, that's terrifying. So he's out there at large,
probably not in India anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Unless they removed him from the environment, gave him a
lot of psychological help, because I don't remember Hill of
all that when I was six or seven, right, No,
so perhaps.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Then if he was detained and it sounded like a
secure facility until he was eighteen. But still, if you've
killed people, you've not really been punished. It's not a
mental institution. It's a children's home.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That you can punish a child that young. I don't
think they would understand. They would understand that they did wrong,
but they wouldn't understand the gravity of it.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I don't think. Yeah, well he spent he spent ten
years in what sounds like a secured children's facility. I mean,
I feel like they should be attracking him. Yeah, I
mean is I mean the fact that he's current wearabounts
are unknown suggest they're not. Yeah, that's concerning. I got
this all from the Mirror Online. It was an article
(21:36):
from July twenty twenty two and they were saying he
was eighteen at that point, so he's an adult and
this doesn't know where he is. Right, That's totally freed
me out. Well, I mean, you know, I'm not ever
going to India. No, I'm not either. Even before this
I wasn't. I've heard it's a beautiful country. Yeah, and
you know there's lots of things I would love to see,
(21:57):
But I don't think I could. I have the constitution
any food at all.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Oh no, I couldn't. I mean I could. I could
not eat anything in India, like, not a single thing.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
No or and daily Billy's no joke. Oh no, no,
no I had.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I had not delibilly, but I had the equivalent of
it when I came back from Morocco and I was
sick for six weeks.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, it's yeah, I just I don't think I could
handle like no FID and drink, and that's the major
thing that puts me off. I don't. Yeah, I don't
ever see me traveling there.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, after my Shri Lanka experience, I'm a definite no
on that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah. Yeah, let's not go to India and get kidnapped. Now.
Even I found a mell, I found the cereal Gullar.
But yeah, I've heard as I've heard lovely reports about
it and there's very nice parts of it. Yeah, but
(22:54):
I don't think I could handle like Yeah, I don't think.
I mean, I've travel like to various places in Africa
and I've been really ill, like with the food and drink,
especially Egypt a few times yea, and I went to
Chinizi and I was ill late as well, and it's just, yeah,
I don't know, I just I need to I think
I've just got a delicate kind of inside when I
need to be very careful. Yeah, even though I'm a
(23:16):
complete alcoholic. More stories about that, yes, but I don't
think I think going to that part of the world
would not suit me. No, No, it wouldn't do either
of us. So you know, I had a list of
years ago that I wanted to see, like the original
Seven Wonders of the World to touch my hous on.
That isn't it. It's the modern world? Is the modern one? Well,
I wanted to do the original list and the modern list,
(23:38):
but I don't think that will be getting taped off. Okay,
I'm maybe not going to go to see like well
I've seen the Pyramids, and I'm maybe not going to
go to like Masha Pichi and things like that. I
don't think I'm going to manage it.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I can do Machipchia because that's two a pill. Yeah, okay,
well China, No I will China.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, if the Communist there's a lot of steps
to get to that point. I think I don't do
steps anymore. Just a few, not hundreds. No, I can't do.
And I don't see what pleasure you would get out
of that now. I don't know. I quite like I
am after hours of pain? Nam Okay, if they could
(24:16):
drop you somewhere like on it. So what's the what's
the original seven Wonders? So it's like them as Agital
is not? I think it might be my Shapcho Great
Wall of China, Nice the Redeemer. No, that's a modern thing.
I think that's an original. How old do you think
it is? It's not one of the ancient wonders? Excuse me,
(24:39):
I'm I'm googling it right now. Original seven Wonders?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No ancient wonders. You have to look up the ancient wonders.
So the hanging Gardens of Babylon, there is a lighthouse
of Alexandria.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
What are the original seven natural Wonders of the world natural?
That's not right, seven wonders of the ancient ware? You go,
that's it, right, Okay, let's see this is a quiz
question in the future. Okay, this is going to be
a quiz question. Okay, Great Pyramids of Giezer, Colossus of Rhodes,
Lighthouse of Alexandria. None of these sound like anything I
(25:14):
know some Mausoleum, Temple of Artemis, Statue of Zeus, Olympia,
and the hind Guards of Babylon. Yeah, so might it
must be the modern one I'm talking about there, it's
made that you're thinking of, because I could not, I won't.
I can only lead about a couple of them. Okay,
let's do the modern one.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So the ancient wonders most of them are gone, if
not all of them, I think they all might be gone.
But like the what except for Giza, But like the
Lighthouse of Alexandria, that's that's gone.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So the the more modern list is Masha Peacho Yeah
she neats. Yeah, oh yeah, I've seen that in the show.
The Colisseum Christ the Redeemerk, the Great Wall of China,
the taj Mahal, and the City of Petra. Yes, and
I've done and one of them. I've done none of them.
(26:04):
I've only done one of the coliseum. You haven't been
to Rome, to Rome, amazing last Rome. The Colosseum in
Rome is I'll probably do. Yeah, it's definitely worth doing
there we go, well, we all talk you things I've learned,
but that's my case and a bit of education for everyone.
Very good, thank you, and we're back. We are. So
(26:34):
do we want strangled and beaten? Is that mine? I'm
looking at you like, hello, Hello, I'm avoiding eye conduct.
I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So mine was beaten, strangled and stabbed and throat slit.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, and minds us one of mine's is hit with
bricks and strangled death. No, they're both bad, really bad actually,
to be fair, they really are really really bad by children,
and it's just like, oh my god, it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The thing is, like mine was thirteen. You could make
an argument that she knew exactly what she was doing.
I mean, she dove two fucking graves. She knew what
she was doing. But yeah, there's just an inhibition with
young people children where they don't they don't seem to
(27:32):
mind what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
No, you know, no, it's quite tata fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I've always said, like, and I've read it somewhere that
you know, all toddlers are psychopaths, and what we instill
in them is what is the difference between a psychopath
and you know, somebody with compassion and all that, because
toddlers do only think about themselves and they completely lose
their shit when they don't get what they want. And
that's what a psychopath basically is, so kind of get
(28:00):
why children wouldn't have the inhibitions. So clearly these children
were not getting the guidance or I think with mine
she was too scarred by the time she was getting guidance.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I think the damage was done, especially there. Yeah,
there's not what you can change about your low process
at that age as such. So you're obviously all lyin behaviors,
doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, it's lain behaviors. I think there's probably some traumas there.
I'm guessing. I'm gonna guess, but I don't understand. She
must have seen some pretty bad shit. Yeah, before she
was taken to her grandparents.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
So my little guy, I don't like as I it doesn't.
When I looked into that bring, it doesn't tell your
hell of a lot. Yeah, but you wouldn't think your
family in India like you wouldn't. I wouldn't have thought then.
I don't know what it's like at that age to
live in that part of the world, but I wouldn't
have thought you'd have seen anything ovally traumatic at a
young age. Then, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I don't know. It could be that he wasn't getting
the attention he wanted, or.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Perhaps that's the thing. It maybe did stay from the attention. Yeah,
I don't know who I'm going to pick. I Oh god,
I'm going to pick the baby yours? I know. I
think I'm going to have to swell about the baby.
It's the baby, But the baby wouldn't know what was
going on. No, but it is that little girl that's
been leading to those.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
She knew what was going on, and yeah, that must
have been really, really scary for her, and she would
have been so confused as well, whereas you know, like
a baby, they wouldn't have any real understanding of anything.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
So, yeah, I'm going to pick yours. I don't want to,
but I don't want something. I'm going to have to agree. Yeah,
I don't want either. What's your thoughts on? I watched
a really interesting documentary last night. Oh okay, w a
prisoner who's a president in this country, who's been in
jail for most of his life. Oh Charles Bronson, Oh right, yeah, Yeah.
(29:52):
There was a two part documentary on Channel four speaking
about it. So this is the beginning of March. I
many onces to go back and watch it. You'll get
it on four OD it's called in the UK. In
the UK, yes, but he is our longest seving prisoner
ever in this country. And he originally went to prison
in his twenties for armed robbery, right, And he got
(30:13):
seven years for robbery in his early twenties and he's
seventeen still in prison. Was armed robbery the only thing
that he was convicted initially, yes, Yes, And he's had
two spells where he's been out, one for I think
a number of days and one for thing a number
of weeks. That he's generally spent the bulk of fifty
years in the prison serizen. But he's a murderer, right,
(30:35):
who murdered anybody. He's never murded, He's never murdered anyone.
He's gone in for m robbery initially, as I say,
seven years, but it's behavior, it's his behavior inside it
added on terms to sentence. He's took people prisoner, he's
harmed them, had lots of protests in prisons, but there's
(30:55):
continual stuff added on all the time, and the spells
that he's got out. I think he's went back in
for like assault or having weapons or whatever else. Right,
but nothing justifies him being in prison for fifty years.
Does he what out? Yes? Okay, now he wants out.
He's tried. He's tried to get parole a number of times.
(31:19):
But there's an injustice to the way he's been treated
in prison. I think, if you keep right, but think
about it, he's never murdered anyone. If he'd murdered someone,
he'd been out. Yeah, he's never murdered anyone. Right, And
he's been kept in solitary confinement for twenty three hours
a day for years. So how is that not enough
(31:41):
to send you off your head? It would, It would
send you like mental it would.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
But then you have to ask yourself, if he's not
capable of controlling his behavior, which is a.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Fair argument, why want him? I think? I think the
prison system has let him down. Absolutely. He's now at
the point where he's seventy years old this year and
he's parole heeding to get out. Is actually the next week?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Huh?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
And this and I don't know because this is the
longest he's had a five year stretch now where there's
been no incidence. Oh really account then, and he is remorsal,
and he's a understanding of why he's been locked up
on whatever else. But he's I think he's applied for
Broler number of times. But I think there's arguments on
(32:27):
both sides. I really do, because I think it's seventy
years old. I don't think he should. He would cause
anyone any more harm, probably not, And I think it's
there's been a five year stretch's he's certainly turned a corner.
He would present the person. He's been in the prison
service pretty much fifty years.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Armed robbery is pretty serious. It means he could have.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
But there's people who went to prison for much less
than him, much worse.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
But then again, like I said, if somebody continually does
not control their behavior and shows aggressive or violent tendencies,
you can't actually put them on the street because you're
putting other people at risk.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
But then you let murderers out, how do you know
they reformed and they won't do it again. Well, they
wouldn't let them out of their behavior in prison wasn't good.
He got it in them to murder. Yeah, I just
think that, yes, he probably would admit himself that he
didn't deserve to get when he was younger. Yeah, because
he was very angry and very violent and whatever else,
(33:21):
and his behavior spoke for itself at that point. However,
I do think that there's people that have done much
worse that I've had much more important prison than he has.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, I think at this point, if he's had he's seventy,
if he's had five clear years, he's never going to
be walking around people know who, you don't know who
to let him out.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, but we'll see. It's March the sixth. This is
the second to March. As were recording, It's March the
six is par leading. I was watching the second PARTNS
documented this morning and I was like, I got it's
this week. I've read his books and stuff when I
was younger. I was so interested because I find characters
like him that I find their mind so interesting and
what they've gone through and the solid you confinement aspects
(34:00):
of present I find must be. I don't how anyone
could survive that.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's tough. Some people like it, but most people it's not.
There's a lot of arguments about human rights against it
because it is the entire human anatomy and psychology is
about human interaction and communication. Everything about our bodies is
about how we interact, and that is like, basically the
(34:27):
purpose of life is to communicate, whether that's for reproduction,
we're communicating with another person, creating new life, or speaking
or working together cooperation.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's all linked.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And when you take that away, it actually damages people's brains.
So it is cruel to do it for prolonged periods
of time.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
But I mean, if you want to watch this documentary
as you watch it or google him, because very interesting
to find it. But there's some really weird aspects of
this documentary, like the women that want to marry that
I've never met him. Yeah, like that. It's a bit weird,
but it's really good. And who knows if you're going
to get out or not. We'll keep you posted. Indeed,
and we're done. We are we leathered on for long enough.
(35:08):
There's a Scottish word bleurther blurther. We are done for
this week. Thank you Zara for the suggestions. Thank you,
and thanks everyone for your suggestions and memes and chat.
There's been lots recently which we'll talk about next episode two. Yeah,
and come over and say how if you want to
any time, you know where we are on all socials
or on our website and we'll see you next time
(35:29):
we will bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at which
murderer dot com. We are also on Instagram, read it
and Twitter. Just look for the app which Murderer account
or hashtag. You can join the debate on our Facebook
(35:54):
page and group interacting with our listeners or the which
Murderer team. Our theme music is Kill Me Again by
Blue Bends. Her artwork was produced by Wild Creations at
fiver dot com.
If you like, Hello mel, Hello Holly. How are you?
I am well? How are you good? I am also well,
I'm just cold? Yeah, me too. Wait, which murderer we
are with a phrasing podcast? I just I don't know
(00:34):
what it is. But I don't know if I don't,
I'm just so cold all the time. Yeah. But do
you think her temperature has dropped? Well?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It has because I got my snow warning on my
car driving through Oh did you Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Because normally by novel it's now March. It's just the
beginning of March at the time of recording. This episode
doesn't go out for another few weeks. But I am
touching wood and everything when I say this. But where
I live, Beby, is always the month of heavy snow,
and it has not been a drop. There's been a
lot in Canada. I think they might have gotten it
(01:07):
for us.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Oh really, or it's coming later, which is just tragic.
So if it snows later than March.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
The winter's actually not been that bad, which makes me
think shit away in for a horrid summer. I hope
not what that means, I don't know. I just think
I think we just think that because we think, do
you know what we'll meet do with awful winters if
we get a decent summer. Yeah, in the last few
summers have actually been all right.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
All right, nothing beats the pandemic summer. That was an
amazing summer.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
God. Yeah, but yeah, I'm just so cold all the time.
But maybe that's the weather or maybe that's my age.
Who knows. And you're just back from your travels. I
am Germany. Yeah, had a quite a nice time in Hamburg. Hi,
Geminyhi Germany when it's listening. Yeah, I hurt myself like
(01:56):
the second.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Day there, huh. Classically that's a collie. I survived the
cobbles of Edinburgh, and like there's a centimeter gap on
a flat paving stone and I just I was in trainers,
that was in proper walking shoes, and my lit just
went over and my ankle went right under, and I
heard the snap.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And I was like, that's not good. And that was
day two. I was like, yeah, it was day two
and he has another few days to go after that. Yeah,
so I've just been walking on it whatever. Yeah, you know,
not much choice, how much choice? That's clearly not broken.
What was your favorite favorite gem and drink or food?
Or did you discover any new ones? Oh, I discovered.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
This this and I don't know what word to use
because everybody's so weird about it. Pop soda, fizzy drink,
fizzy juice, coke like thing called mezzi. Obviously it's not new,
but it's new to me. And it's like so Edinburgh
Airport has it in the Burger King.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Oh. I was like, Oh, that's interesting. I'm gonna try that.
So when you get different flavors, so it's just one flavor,
I think.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
You can get it like you know, like there's a
cherry do you ss a e?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Do you think I've seen that? It's hard to describe.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
It's like maybe a combination of Dr Pepper and coke.
Oh right, okay, it was maybe a bit citrus and
there too.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
I can't even like a massive fan of coke, ze
and coke, not a fan of Doctor Peper. Doctor Pepper
gives me time, egge, no idea? Why but it does. No,
I'm not not to have fun, but I'd like to
try it. Yeah. So that was like, so it's German. No, right, okay,
you just discovered it in Germany.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, well I discovered at the airport and then it
was all over Germany, and I was like, yes, do
you know what it's not in Germany?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Though? Well, couldn't find pepsi no way. Yeah, what the
Germans got against pepsi? I don't know. It might not
be all Germans, but I couldn't find one in Hamburg.
What's weird? It was so weird. And what about foods,
any new foods? Because I do like the German I
love like when we went to I think, I think
(04:01):
I've only been to Berlin and there'd been more than
one place in Germany. But I loved the little street
vendors and stuff like different vanieties of German sauceage and stuff. Lovely.
They didn't have anything like that.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Hamburg is a little bit more hoidy toydy. So it
was the first night there. Ordered a Domino's through Justy.
It didn't show up. I was raging and you paid
for it. Yeah, but it was German just eat, so
I had to write all my rage mail in German.
Oh no, it's so frustrating. But they refunded it. But
(04:32):
deneat that night because it got in so late. Okay,
I found a little Italian across the road. There's quite
a few Italians actually in Germany, and yeah, it was
the best Italian I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh my god, what did you get? I got?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
The first night, we got a calzoni and it was
like spinach and mushroom and ham and tomato, sauce and cheese,
but all made like right in front of you, and
it was massive, amazing. And then we went there for
my birthday dinner and had noki with fortune sauce. Oh cool,
but they have like chunks of cheese in the sauce.
I was like, this is heaven, heaven, heaven awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
And you turned your grand old age in Hamburg? I did.
I turned old and I had a lovely time. Yes,
and you have come back at different age, And how
are we feeling about that? Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I don't even think about it because all I think
about is Hamburg, which is why I always go away
for my birthday. Yes, it doesn't actually feel like I'm
older because I was away for it.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yeah, I've been away from mine and I don't get that.
Oh really, No, maybe don't talk to yourself enough.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
I talk to myself into believing it it's true.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I Yeah, I've been away from mine quite a few times.
But I don't know, I don't get that feeling much.
But I don't really I don't really care that much
about birthdays now.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Oh no, I like my birthday week. I like my
birthday week. Is my birthday week because I'm Sonia Christmas.
It's just like a oh yeah, yours is really busy.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
It's good because I don't really get to think about
birthday so much getting old today. What are we doing
children that kill? Yes? And this was suggested by our
lovely listeners Zara Hello, Zara Hello. I'm a little concerned
about her.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Because her last one was like kicking murders, and you're like,
when she's cooking for her children and now she's doing
children that kill.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
She just likes to think about murder quite oh and
a free time and that's okay. Oh no, that's okay.
I'm like, she's a very good mum to our four children.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I know, but like maybe she suspects her four children
of being serial killers.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
I don't know, maybe this is a cry for help.
I think she's just like she just really likes murder,
and she she messages me loads of like cases that
she hears of, like up here, that I've never heard of.
What is this? So it's so interesting, but Zara has recommended,
recommended is that night word suggested, that's the word children
(07:02):
that murder? And we have to give a shout out
to our lovely listener from Ohio. And maybe we've got
more than one, but we only correspond with one. Yeah,
Emma Joe who sent us an email days ago with
a shit ton of suggestions.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It was Hello, I'm like mel list it is.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
There's loads. Yeah, some of them have covered as explained
in my email back to it. We've covered some, but
I've kind of tweaked that we can kind of do
them again. Yeah, so our spreadsheet is full for the
rest of season five and full of season six. Season
six is done now taking suggestions for season seven. Amazing.
Thank you for not making us work. Thank you very
(07:44):
much everybody. They've been so good to the suggestions and
keep them coming because they will never turn them away
ever ever, Ever. No, even if we're talking about season
ten and we're only on season eight. It's fine. Yeah,
it's absolutely fine. I'm all for it means we don't
have to think, which quite frankly, most times right now,
I'm totally incapable of a challenge.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
It is a challenge women of a certain age and
brain fog.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
We are in the fog. Brain fog is not to
be laughed at. It's real and it is like horrible. Yeah,
when you're just like I know the name of this thing,
but I just cannot think of it. And it takes
ages of the light bulb moment, like ages, and I
sit and think about like I know this, and I
sit and thinking about like things to promptly like help me,
(08:27):
like and I get nothing. Oh, I'm yeah, it's really bad.
It's horrid. It's really bad. But yes, there's a lot
to be said for it, and it's not to be
laughed at, so no one can laugh as please. Yeah,
of the probably will children that kill? Who's first? I'm first?
You're always first. I'm not. You are I sit here
to have to wait every single week?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well maybe it's because we're recorded for every week and
that's how numbers work.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I don't know. I'm like, is it my jad? Do
you really want to go first? No, it's okay, I'm fine,
Hell all right? Children that kill Alyssa Dailean Bustamante. That
is a fabulous name. Isn't it. It's a really good one.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Was born the twentieth of January nineteen ninety four in
a small town named Saint Martin's, Missouri. So she was
born the or before I graduated. That's depressing under.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
The nineties, which is also based Uh huh.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I'm trying to think what happened in ninety four. I
think that was the year my brother was born.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Oh God, good music. Good music is in the nineties
or late nineties music. Yeah, ninety eighties, nineties is also good.
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
She was the oldest of four, and in two thousand
and two, when she was eight, her religious grandparents took
custody of all four kids due to their mother's addiction issues.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh it was for the best.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, and under the circumstances, their father was serving a
ten year prison sentence for assault, so it was all
on the mother and she had addiction problems, so she
couldn't care for the kids.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah. Well, beta, then, oh, you would think.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
While Alissa was a bright student, she suffered psychological difficulties
and was known to self harm and had attempted suicide
in two thousand and seven at the age of thirteen.
Oh wow, Yeah, she really struggled. And I mean, we
don't know what happened to her before the age of
Ada either, like something. There may have been things going on,
especially from other had addictions. Yeah, this is when friends
(10:27):
started noticing changes in her. Alissa's social media accounts reflected
her dark thoughts under hobbies. On her YouTube account, she
listed cutting as a hobby, so it's a pretty big
cry for help. She regularly went with her grandparents to church,
and they were members of the Church of Latter day Saints.
Oh sorry for Latter Day Saints listeners, but yeah, we
(10:52):
did Mormon Murders and you know so, And I've just.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Watched that show as well, and it stratified me forever.
Oh under the banner, but it's so good. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Four houses down from Melissa lived nine year old Elizabeth Olton.
Elizabeth was a shy girl who loved cats, the color pink,
and wearing dresses. On the twenty first of October two
thousand and nine, Elizabeth was playing at a friend's house
and when it was time to go home, she set off.
She still hadn't arrived home from like a pretty short
(11:25):
walk forty five minutes later, and her mother called the
police right away. So small town, very reliable child, not
far away. Yeah yeah, so she knew something wasn't right.
When the search began with police and volunteers, it was
dark and raining. They searched the nearby woods with dogs, firefighters, police, helicopters, FBI,
and highway patrol all showed up immediately, but they didn't
(11:51):
find her. By the next morning, the battery on her
phone had died, and that they'd sort of been trying
to like triangulate with her phone, but it died by
the next morning, so she couldn't be trapped. Details and
rumors began to spread in the small town. People mentioned
Elissa's name. She didn't show up for school the day
after the disappearance, and police gathered some written evidence that
(12:13):
made her a person of interest. So again small town
people were like, have you looked at this person? Have
you looked at that person? And Elissa's name came up,
and then police still a little digging, and they were like,
hold on, like we need to look closer.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
The friend that Elizabeth little Girl had been playing with
was Alissa's six year old half sister, so her half
sister lived in another house. Maybe it was like her
father's child or something. I don't know. Yeah, but her
half sister lived down the road, and that was the
little girl that Elizabeth was playing with.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Alisa had called Elizabeth, the nine year old on her
mobile phone and told her to come to her house
or that she like, instead of going home from her sister,
stepsister or half sister's house. She called her and told
her to come over to her house and then she
led the young girl into the woods from there. A
(13:12):
week prior, Alissa had dug two graves in the woods,
so one percent planned. Some speculated it was for her
twin brothers. That's why she dug two.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
She also mentioned to a friend she wondered what it
would be like to kill someone, so the friend set
that to the police. Once in the woods with Elizabeth,
Alyssa beat the young girl, strangled her and stabbed her
and then slit her throat. So this is a thirteen
year old doing this to a nine year old, isn't
a horrible She then buried her in one of the
(13:47):
graves she had dug and returned home to write in her.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Diary, no diaries diaries, and.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
She wrote, I just fucking killed someone. I strangled them
and slit their throats and stabbed them.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Now dead.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
I don't know how to feel at the moment. Atm
it was abbreviated. It was amazing with an h. As
soon as you get over the oh my god, I
can't do this feeling, it's pretty enjoyable. I'm kind of
nervous and shaking though right now. Okay, I got to
go to church now.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Lol.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So really really wedding, it's pretty detached from Yeah, Alyssa
took like she she didn't really hide it after. I mean,
she buried the body, but she didn't hide it when
she was being interviewed. So Alyssa took police to the
body of Elizabeth and confessed. She was taken into custody
but hospitalized for psychological treatment.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah. I think that's definitely need Oh definitely.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
She's self harmed and had thoughts of suicide still and
while she was in custody, so that's why they took
her to the hospital. Alyssa's initial plea in two thousand
and nine was not guilty, but over two years later,
in twenty twelve, she pled guilty to second degree murder
and armed criminal acts. She received life with the possibility
of parol. So by the time she went to trial,
(15:06):
she was like fifteen sixteen.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, but she was.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Tried as an adult. Oh so she got life without
or sorry, life with the Possibility of Pearl, which I
think it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Must have been sixteen. Then she's tried as an adult.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Oh no in States, they tried them twelve thirteen. Yeah, yeah,
well no, because they're not adults. Like I'm too, completely
against it. I'm completely against it, but whatever. So, yeah,
she will eventually be up for parol probably, I don't
know when she'll be actually up for rurle. I didn't
(15:38):
write down where I got this from. That's interesting, just
make up. I got this from blood, but blood dot
com that's the excellent website.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
It is so good and reliable. Nice one, Thank you,
and we're back. We are back. And I am firstly
going to apologize to the whole of India. Oh no,
because I'm about to say names of people and place
names which are probably not accurate. I will, I will.
(16:14):
She's like literally lying back now, she's a little cigar,
got a cocktail in her hand. Yeah no, but I'll
give it a go, and I'm sure India will respect
me for that. Even if I get it's horribly wrong.
If they don't, who knows, we'll get so my children.
Who murder is a young guy called Amarjit Sada. It
(16:36):
was born in nineteen ninety eight in the village of
musha har and b Har, India. I think that, yeah,
I'll looked at you with a smile, like what do
you think? Yeah? I think very well, because I'm not
an expert and I don't speak Indian. Soap okay, thumbs up,
thumbs up. Amarjit is believed to have murdered three people,
(16:58):
including family members, by the time he was eight years old.
Oh my god and set in separate instance between two
thousand and six and two thousand and seven. The sadistic
youth reportedly kicked his verse victim when he was just
aged just seven, and to date he holds the infamous
title of being the world's youngest serial killer. Oh my god,
(17:18):
who did he kill? He's seven? Well? Yeah hm. Little
is known about his background, but it's understood that he
was born into a poor family and his father worked
as a laborer. In two thousand and six, he allegedly
murdered a six year old cousin, the daughter of his uncle,
it's thought he also killed his own baby sister, who
was only eight months old. Oh my god. His last
(17:40):
victim was even younger, a six month old baby girl
called Cushbou who lived in the neighborhood. So this is
all when he's like six, seven and eight, Oh my god,
which is pretty horrific. But her mother told the police
that she'd left the child sleeping alone at a primary
school when she went off to do some chores, and
when she returned, her baby was missing, and a search
(18:02):
was soon launched. However, a few hours later, Amerjee freely
admitted to police that he took little girl, hit her
with bricks, and strangled her to death. This is a
this is the sixth month old baby girl. That is
so wrong. So how like, how is it possible to
have those thoughts at such a young age?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I also do I understand why the mother just left
her baby prim school. Yeah, it seems a bit weird,
but I don't know how it.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Works there terrifying that such young age is this little
thing is just like going out and killing people. He
then led villagers to where he attempted to bury the
baby in a new byfield, and, according to Amergee's uncle.
Some of his family supposedly knew about the first two killings,
but they were left unreported because they were family matters
(18:48):
and inverted commas family matters. So I'm sorry, but if
you know, if you've got someone that young that's killing
member of the family, then they're going to kill more people.
You've got to police and authority. Surely.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
So.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Was he living with his parents, Yeah, it's fair than you,
and he's killing members of his family, but they're all
keeping it hush hush wows. No, it's not cool. The
police took Amorgate into custody, where he depostedly, smiled a
lot and showed no remorse after admitting he murdered his
sister a few months earlier and his cousin the year before.
(19:24):
One inspector on the case said all the killings were
similar in execution. Right at the time of his capture,
one psychologist called him as sages to derise pleasure from
inflicting injuries. Another said there is no sense of right
or wrong at all, and they never came across anyone
with such, with no moral compass as such. Even obviously
(19:44):
these psychologists are more so trained to deal with adults. Yeah,
and They always a deal with adults most of their
work in life, but they could not believe that they'd
come across someone that was like they'd seem more adults
like with it would show remorse. This kid was just
like at six and seven, though, do they even understand? Dad?
You know he'd done wrong? Surely you know you've done wrong,
(20:06):
but do you understand like the permanence of death. I
don't know that. How have you got thoughts at that
age to want to kill someone?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
It's going to be something going on at the house, then.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, it's really It really disturbs me. In India, a
child cannot be jailed or sending to death under Indian law,
which is good. So amerg was thought to have been
detained in a children's hospital, a children's hospital, a children's
home in the town of munger and b Hart until
he was eighteen. Okay, he's understood to have been released
in twenty sixteen and his current whereabouts are unknown. Oh
(20:38):
that's scary, that's terrifying. So he's out there at large,
probably not in India anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Unless they removed him from the environment, gave him a
lot of psychological help, because I don't remember Hill of
all that when I was six or seven, right, No,
so perhaps.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Then if he was detained and it sounded like a
secure facility until he was eighteen. But still, if you've
killed people, you've not really been punished. It's not a
mental institution. It's a children's home.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That you can punish a child that young. I don't
think they would understand. They would understand that they did wrong,
but they wouldn't understand the gravity of it.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I don't think. Yeah, well he spent he spent ten
years in what sounds like a secured children's facility. I mean,
I feel like they should be attracking him. Yeah, I
mean is I mean the fact that he's current wearabounts
are unknown suggest they're not. Yeah, that's concerning. I got
this all from the Mirror Online. It was an article
(21:36):
from July twenty twenty two and they were saying he
was eighteen at that point, so he's an adult and
this doesn't know where he is. Right, That's totally freed
me out. Well, I mean, you know, I'm not ever
going to India. No, I'm not either. Even before this
I wasn't. I've heard it's a beautiful country. Yeah, and
you know there's lots of things I would love to see,
(21:57):
But I don't think I could. I have the constitution
any food at all.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Oh no, I couldn't. I mean I could. I could
not eat anything in India, like, not a single thing.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
No or and daily Billy's no joke. Oh no, no,
no I had.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
I had not delibilly, but I had the equivalent of
it when I came back from Morocco and I was
sick for six weeks.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, it's yeah, I just I don't think I could
handle like no FID and drink, and that's the major
thing that puts me off. I don't. Yeah, I don't
ever see me traveling there.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, after my Shri Lanka experience, I'm a definite no
on that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah. Yeah, let's not go to India and get kidnapped. Now.
Even I found a mell, I found the cereal Gullar.
But yeah, I've heard as I've heard lovely reports about
it and there's very nice parts of it. Yeah, but
(22:54):
I don't think I could handle like Yeah, I don't think.
I mean, I've travel like to various places in Africa
and I've been really ill, like with the food and drink,
especially Egypt a few times yea, and I went to
Chinizi and I was ill late as well, and it's just, yeah,
I don't know, I just I need to I think
I've just got a delicate kind of inside when I
need to be very careful. Yeah, even though I'm a
(23:16):
complete alcoholic. More stories about that, yes, but I don't
think I think going to that part of the world
would not suit me. No, No, it wouldn't do either
of us. So you know, I had a list of
years ago that I wanted to see, like the original
Seven Wonders of the World to touch my hous on.
That isn't it. It's the modern world? Is the modern one? Well,
I wanted to do the original list and the modern list,
(23:38):
but I don't think that will be getting taped off. Okay,
I'm maybe not going to go to see like well
I've seen the Pyramids, and I'm maybe not going to
go to like Masha Pichi and things like that. I
don't think I'm going to manage it.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I can do Machipchia because that's two a pill. Yeah, okay,
well China, No I will China.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, if the Communist there's a lot of steps
to get to that point. I think I don't do
steps anymore. Just a few, not hundreds. No, I can't do.
And I don't see what pleasure you would get out
of that now. I don't know. I quite like I
am after hours of pain? Nam Okay, if they could
(24:16):
drop you somewhere like on it. So what's the what's
the original seven Wonders? So it's like them as Agital
is not? I think it might be my Shapcho Great
Wall of China, Nice the Redeemer. No, that's a modern thing.
I think that's an original. How old do you think
it is? It's not one of the ancient wonders? Excuse me,
(24:39):
I'm I'm googling it right now. Original seven Wonders?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No ancient wonders. You have to look up the ancient wonders.
So the hanging Gardens of Babylon, there is a lighthouse
of Alexandria.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
What are the original seven natural Wonders of the world natural?
That's not right, seven wonders of the ancient ware? You go,
that's it, right, Okay, let's see this is a quiz
question in the future. Okay, this is going to be
a quiz question. Okay, Great Pyramids of Giezer, Colossus of Rhodes,
Lighthouse of Alexandria. None of these sound like anything I
(25:14):
know some Mausoleum, Temple of Artemis, Statue of Zeus, Olympia,
and the hind Guards of Babylon. Yeah, so might it
must be the modern one I'm talking about there, it's
made that you're thinking of, because I could not, I won't.
I can only lead about a couple of them. Okay,
let's do the modern one.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So the ancient wonders most of them are gone, if
not all of them, I think they all might be gone.
But like the what except for Giza, But like the
Lighthouse of Alexandria, that's that's gone.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
So the the more modern list is Masha Peacho Yeah
she neats. Yeah, oh yeah, I've seen that in the show.
The Colisseum Christ the Redeemerk, the Great Wall of China,
the taj Mahal, and the City of Petra. Yes, and
I've done and one of them. I've done none of them.
(26:04):
I've only done one of the coliseum. You haven't been
to Rome, to Rome, amazing last Rome. The Colosseum in
Rome is I'll probably do. Yeah, it's definitely worth doing
there we go, well, we all talk you things I've learned,
but that's my case and a bit of education for everyone.
Very good, thank you, and we're back. We are. So
(26:34):
do we want strangled and beaten? Is that mine? I'm
looking at you like, hello, Hello, I'm avoiding eye conduct.
I'm looking.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So mine was beaten, strangled and stabbed and throat slit.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Yes, and minds us one of mine's is hit with
bricks and strangled death. No, they're both bad, really bad actually,
to be fair, they really are really really bad by children,
and it's just like, oh my god, it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
The thing is, like mine was thirteen. You could make
an argument that she knew exactly what she was doing.
I mean, she dove two fucking graves. She knew what
she was doing. But yeah, there's just an inhibition with
young people children where they don't they don't seem to
(27:32):
mind what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
No, you know, no, it's quite tata fine. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I've always said, like, and I've read it somewhere that
you know, all toddlers are psychopaths, and what we instill
in them is what is the difference between a psychopath
and you know, somebody with compassion and all that, because
toddlers do only think about themselves and they completely lose
their shit when they don't get what they want. And
that's what a psychopath basically is, so kind of get
(28:00):
why children wouldn't have the inhibitions. So clearly these children
were not getting the guidance or I think with mine
she was too scarred by the time she was getting guidance.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I think the damage was done, especially there. Yeah,
there's not what you can change about your low process
at that age as such. So you're obviously all lyin behaviors,
doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, it's lain behaviors. I think there's probably some traumas there.
I'm guessing. I'm gonna guess, but I don't understand. She
must have seen some pretty bad shit. Yeah, before she
was taken to her grandparents.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
So my little guy, I don't like as I it doesn't.
When I looked into that bring, it doesn't tell your
hell of a lot. Yeah, but you wouldn't think your
family in India like you wouldn't. I wouldn't have thought then.
I don't know what it's like at that age to
live in that part of the world, but I wouldn't
have thought you'd have seen anything ovally traumatic at a
young age. Then, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I don't know. It could be that he wasn't getting
the attention he wanted, or.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Perhaps that's the thing. It maybe did stay from the attention. Yeah,
I don't know who I'm going to pick. I Oh god,
I'm going to pick the baby yours? I know. I
think I'm going to have to swell about the baby.
It's the baby, But the baby wouldn't know what was
going on. No, but it is that little girl that's
been leading to those.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
She knew what was going on, and yeah, that must
have been really, really scary for her, and she would
have been so confused as well, whereas you know, like
a baby, they wouldn't have any real understanding of anything.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
So, yeah, I'm going to pick yours. I don't want to,
but I don't want something. I'm going to have to agree. Yeah,
I don't want either. What's your thoughts on? I watched
a really interesting documentary last night. Oh okay, w a
prisoner who's a president in this country, who's been in
jail for most of his life. Oh Charles Bronson, Oh right, yeah, Yeah.
(29:52):
There was a two part documentary on Channel four speaking
about it. So this is the beginning of March. I
many onces to go back and watch it. You'll get
it on four OD it's called in the UK. In
the UK, yes, but he is our longest seving prisoner
ever in this country. And he originally went to prison
in his twenties for armed robbery, right, And he got
(30:13):
seven years for robbery in his early twenties and he's
seventeen still in prison. Was armed robbery the only thing
that he was convicted initially, yes, Yes, And he's had
two spells where he's been out, one for I think
a number of days and one for thing a number
of weeks. That he's generally spent the bulk of fifty
years in the prison serizen. But he's a murderer, right,
(30:35):
who murdered anybody. He's never murded, He's never murdered anyone.
He's gone in for m robbery initially, as I say,
seven years, but it's behavior, it's his behavior inside it
added on terms to sentence. He's took people prisoner, he's
harmed them, had lots of protests in prisons, but there's
(30:55):
continual stuff added on all the time, and the spells
that he's got out. I think he's went back in
for like assault or having weapons or whatever else. Right,
but nothing justifies him being in prison for fifty years.
Does he what out? Yes? Okay, now he wants out.
He's tried. He's tried to get parole a number of times.
(31:19):
But there's an injustice to the way he's been treated
in prison. I think, if you keep right, but think
about it, he's never murdered anyone. If he'd murdered someone,
he'd been out. Yeah, he's never murdered anyone. Right, And
he's been kept in solitary confinement for twenty three hours
a day for years. So how is that not enough
(31:41):
to send you off your head? It would, It would
send you like mental it would.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
But then you have to ask yourself, if he's not
capable of controlling his behavior, which is a.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Fair argument, why want him? I think? I think the
prison system has let him down. Absolutely. He's now at
the point where he's seventy years old this year and
he's parole heeding to get out. Is actually the next week?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Huh?
Speaker 1 (32:06):
And this and I don't know because this is the
longest he's had a five year stretch now where there's
been no incidence. Oh really account then, and he is remorsal,
and he's a understanding of why he's been locked up
on whatever else. But he's I think he's applied for
Broler number of times. But I think there's arguments on
(32:27):
both sides. I really do, because I think it's seventy
years old. I don't think he should. He would cause
anyone any more harm, probably not, And I think it's
there's been a five year stretch's he's certainly turned a corner.
He would present the person. He's been in the prison
service pretty much fifty years.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Armed robbery is pretty serious. It means he could have.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
But there's people who went to prison for much less
than him, much worse.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
But then again, like I said, if somebody continually does
not control their behavior and shows aggressive or violent tendencies,
you can't actually put them on the street because you're
putting other people at risk.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
But then you let murderers out, how do you know
they reformed and they won't do it again. Well, they
wouldn't let them out of their behavior in prison wasn't good.
He got it in them to murder. Yeah, I just
think that, yes, he probably would admit himself that he
didn't deserve to get when he was younger. Yeah, because
he was very angry and very violent and whatever else,
(33:21):
and his behavior spoke for itself at that point. However,
I do think that there's people that have done much
worse that I've had much more important prison than he has.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, I think at this point, if he's had he's seventy,
if he's had five clear years, he's never going to
be walking around people know who, you don't know who
to let him out.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Yeah, but we'll see. It's March the sixth. This is
the second to March. As were recording, It's March the
six is par leading. I was watching the second PARTNS
documented this morning and I was like, I got it's
this week. I've read his books and stuff when I
was younger. I was so interested because I find characters
like him that I find their mind so interesting and
what they've gone through and the solid you confinement aspects
(34:00):
of present I find must be. I don't how anyone
could survive that.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
It's tough. Some people like it, but most people it's not.
There's a lot of arguments about human rights against it
because it is the entire human anatomy and psychology is
about human interaction and communication. Everything about our bodies is
about how we interact, and that is like, basically the
(34:27):
purpose of life is to communicate, whether that's for reproduction,
we're communicating with another person, creating new life, or speaking
or working together cooperation.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's all linked.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
And when you take that away, it actually damages people's brains.
So it is cruel to do it for prolonged periods
of time.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
But I mean, if you want to watch this documentary
as you watch it or google him, because very interesting
to find it. But there's some really weird aspects of
this documentary, like the women that want to marry that
I've never met him. Yeah, like that. It's a bit weird,
but it's really good. And who knows if you're going
to get out or not. We'll keep you posted. Indeed,
and we're done. We are we leathered on for long enough.
(35:08):
There's a Scottish word bleurther blurther. We are done for
this week. Thank you Zara for the suggestions. Thank you,
and thanks everyone for your suggestions and memes and chat.
There's been lots recently which we'll talk about next episode two. Yeah,
and come over and say how if you want to
any time, you know where we are on all socials
or on our website and we'll see you next time
(35:29):
we will bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at which
murderer dot com. We are also on Instagram, read it
and Twitter. Just look for the app which Murderer account
or hashtag. You can join the debate on our Facebook
(35:54):
page and group interacting with our listeners or the which
Murderer team. Our theme music is Kill Me Again by
Blue Bends. Her artwork was produced by Wild Creations at
fiver dot com.
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