January 28, 2025 • 30 mins
Which Murderer Flashback Episode!
In Episode 26 Season 2, Gemma and Holly talk about murderers who lost their heads!....while decapitating people. Gemma covers the murderer Mathew Borges who took 'troubled teens' a step or ten too far and Holly speaks about the Kingsbury Run murders from the 1930s.
The girls plug Gemma's guest appearance on the podcast 'Good Nurse Bad Nurse', Holly has another Reddit breakdown, the girls guess a movie correctly for the first time in history (wink wink Kevin Costner) and Holly give age specific murder advice.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who somehow found himself committed to a remote weekend away with the crew for a recording session in the wilds of Scotland next year. His eyes are glazed over with joy.
Gemma mostly edited this week. All complaints should be sent to Producer Craig who is currently googling how to survive in the wilderness while recording a podcast.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Recorded in a secret location somewhere in Scotland
In Episode 26 Season 2, Gemma and Holly talk about murderers who lost their heads!....while decapitating people. Gemma covers the murderer Mathew Borges who took 'troubled teens' a step or ten too far and Holly speaks about the Kingsbury Run murders from the 1930s.
The girls plug Gemma's guest appearance on the podcast 'Good Nurse Bad Nurse', Holly has another Reddit breakdown, the girls guess a movie correctly for the first time in history (wink wink Kevin Costner) and Holly give age specific murder advice.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who somehow found himself committed to a remote weekend away with the crew for a recording session in the wilds of Scotland next year. His eyes are glazed over with joy.
Gemma mostly edited this week. All complaints should be sent to Producer Craig who is currently googling how to survive in the wilderness while recording a podcast.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Recorded in a secret location somewhere in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
If you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi Holly, Hi Jimmy. How's it going right? How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm good, thank you, I'm good, excellent. We are
which murderer?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
We are? Which murderer? See how quick we said that
this time? Yes we did?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You know exactly who we are within the first thirty seconds.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I wonder of producer Craig noticed, He's nodding. He says,
he noticed. I'm glad you noticed. I'm glad you noticed.
Because he nexts us incessantly about who we are all
the time, all the time. I mean, give it a rest, man,
I know.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So this week we're speaking about, well, I've put beheadings,
which I think is a bit more of a biblical term.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
For it, but I suppose it's the apputations. Yeah, I
put to capitation. Yeah, because I'm all about just being
fucking brutal. I don't know off with it. But first,
we've got a few things that we want to speak about.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So I want to mention the lovely podcast that I
guess did on which launched today that we're recording.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So that's the twelfth with Good Nurse, Bad Nurse.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, it's out today, so please go listen to it
if you if you get a chance.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I will listen tomorrow on the way to work. Yes,
how long is it?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
About an hourish? Maybe maybe a bit longer to get
to work today? Sod bock my life after all the time?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh man? Yeah, oh well that'll help you pass the time,
I think will I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So that's with the Lovely Tina. She's amazing. She's an
absolute sweetheart. So give that a liston.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, so one of our upcoming episodes. I was trying
to do some research for. It is basically like what
got you into your crime? In the case I got
you into your crime, and I was interested in what
everybody's cases were to see if there were similarities. Yeah,
Jesus fucking Christ read it blew up on me. I
was so stressed out because I felt like I had
(02:10):
to reply to every single person and all, you're too
nice that way. Sometimes I'm Canadian, but oh my god.
There were so many comments and it was really really interesting,
like you could totally tell the people who grew up
the same time as you.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, based on who they were interested, based on who
they were interested.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
A ton about John Benny Ramsey, Yeah, a ton about
like the Black Dahlia. There were a few old school ones. Actually,
there was a couple like really old school ones where
they talked about Bundy and stuff and I was interesting. Okay, yeah,
it was really really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I suppose that's under about the time when you were
sort of growing up was when true crane probably the
interest and.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It really exploded that point. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean
basically every child in the eighties was at risk of
being murdered. Yeah, constantly, all the time, constantly, and none
of us, like our parents and parents really don't care. Yeah,
I mean did not give two No, I was running
ramp it through the neighborhood in diapers, no other clothes
from the age of two. Nobody cared.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
That's just yeah, it does not make sense to me,
doesn't compute. That's how people would love.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, And the other thing I just want to say is,
I know people have sent us their promos and stuff
to put in We're working through a back catalog and
we're kind of looking at the structures of our shows.
But we will get to you eventually, So don't worry
if you haven't heard your promo yet. We will get
in there eventually. Yeah, We're all about promoting you guys.
So yes, I love promoting other podcasts. I think it's
(03:33):
a good community. So it is. We're trying to be
supportive as much as we can.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Indeed, so I'm going first this week, yes, and I'm
speaking about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Matthew Borges.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Now Matthew spells his name with one T, but I'm
still just kind of calling Matthew.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
What does he have an age there? Yeah, yeah, that's
still Matthew one or two? Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So Matthew was what appear to be a very energetic,
fun and sociable teenager. He had a few girlfriends in
his early teens, and they said that he was quite
jealous throughout their relationship, even at a young age, right,
And they said also they had this kind of like
dark side and quite moody as well.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But that kind of sounds like most teenagers. Fair that
is the age of twelve to nineteen and every single
human teenager very much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So when Matthew was fifteen, in September twenty sixteen, so
it's quite a recent case. Oh yeah, he started dating
a girl called Stephanie who went to his school in Boston.
The pair would skip classes and were in constant contact.
So you know, as teenagers are these days with phones
in that they were just texting all day, every day,
(04:47):
all the time that they were awake.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
See, back in the day, you were either on the
phone for hours or you didn't hear from them. Yeah,
you didn't have that option. No, I know, and in
a way, you know, you're less free in that sense.
You you don't have the choice.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
You're sort of expected to always reply to people now
and you just don't seem to have that freedom anymore. Which, yeah,
especially for teenagers, that must be quite a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Is a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, So initially their message started off as sweet and romantic.
Matthew would call Stephanie beautiful and would give her all
these lovely nicknames and all the emmotocons and pretty much
all the messages which I have to say, I'm a
fan of amoticon.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's the easiest way to say
nice or cool or I'm happy or whatever was that
having to type words? Yeah, I love it, I'm all
for it. And Matthew also said that he wanted Stephanie
to be his wife, but he had goals to achieve.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
First sody like, what's that puberty. Yeah, sixteen, I mean,
come on, just chill. Matthew's messages has definitely started getting darker.
He spoke about his demons and said that he thought
about killing people and liking the sound of causing someone pain.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Okay, Stephanie, that is a warning sign.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yes, So Stephanie tried to message and say that she
wanted to help them. Sometimes I feel like, when you
know you're seeing that thing on your phone, it doesn't
really you can't comprehend how messed up that is because
it's sort of it's on your phone, you're not speaking
to someone in person, And I kind of think maybe
that's what she was thinking. Matthew said he would hide
(06:26):
his thoughts in the back of his mind like he
always did. He said he thought about killing someone every day,
but he controlled himself. And then he spoke about how
people who had done things like that lost their humanity
and had dark and dead eyes that no longer shone,
and that that person didn't have a soul, and he
said that his eyes would look like that the next
(06:48):
time Stephanie saw him, and he said that he would
kill anybody that got in the way of what he wanted.
So he's very fixated on this thought.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's quite prescriptive. I will say as a teenage boy, Emo, Dick,
I mean so much.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It really just sounds like he's one of those people
that you know are maybe a little bit like us.
They're like obsessed with sort of like the dark, like
murder parts.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
People don't know that they're obsessed with. Yeah, look at me,
I'm so dark. It is very much an image for them. Yeah,
he took that a step further though.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So before he was dating this girl Stephanie, he was
dating another girl called Lalaune and they broke up because
Matthew had accused her of being with other boys in
the school and he mentioned one of his own friends
by name, and that person was Lee Manuel Valoria Paulino,
thank you, And so he also then got annoyed at
(07:47):
Stephanie for speaking to this person as well.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
They had a Facebook group.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Called The Game Winners that Matthew and some other friends
were on, and Matthew and that group of friends made
a plan to rob Lee's house and steal his PlayStation, clothes,
and other valuables. The plan was that Matthew would take
Lee out and distract him while the other boys robbed
his bedroom. So on November the eighteenth, twenty sixteen, Matthew
(08:15):
went to Lee's house around about five point thirty pm
and invited him down the river to smoke some weed
and hang out. Matthew was still only fifteen at this
point and Lee was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Where was this? This was in Boston. Oh my god,
that'd be freezing yeow okay.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So once they got there, it's kind of hard to
say what caused it because Matthew hasn't been very forthcoming
with any informations, but there's some possibilities that I can assume.
So either Matthew had it planned exactly what he was
going to do that evening and knew he was going
to kill Lee as soon as he got there, and
he prepared for it, and he started killing him pretty
much as soon as he got there as well, Or
(08:54):
an argument broke out and Matthew somehow had weapons on
him and killed them towards the first because well, Lee
was stabbed seventy times seventy yeah, and had his head
and his hands chopped off, So wow, to have that
amount of weaponry on you just for just in case,
(09:15):
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Really make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So I really think that he had planned this out,
but the other group of boys, they seemed to just
think that this was a robbery. So they went ahead
and stole the things out of Lee's bedroom, and then
Matthew phoned them saying he'd killed Lee and had chopped
the head off.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Him so that he wouldn't get caught. Okay, well, good idea,
telling everybody. Yeah, that makes sense. Just tell all your friends.
Do you remember what I said once, like, you should
not kill people before the age of twenty five because
you are not capable of thought.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
No, you just don't make any right Well, you're not
making any right decisions by killing anybody, but you're not
trying to cover.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yourself, do you know what I mean? Like, if you're
gonna kill somebody, I can't stop you, But don't do
it before you're twenty five, because your brain is just
not good at making it decisions. Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, just give yourself a cooling off period, and once
you get twenty five, that's when you can.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I mean, if you can do it's gonna stop you.
I'm not telling you to go do it, but you
know what I mean, I do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So Lee was reported missing and it appears that Matthew
just left his sort of torso and the rest of
his body on the banks of the river and threw
the head and the hands into the river itself. And
Matthew and his friends were able to keep that quiet
for weeks until a dog walker found Lee's torso at
the riverside on the first of December. Okay, Stephanie had
(10:35):
asked Matthew and that period that Lee was missing, you know,
if he'd heard from Lee, and Matthew said that he hadn't,
and he assumed Lee was just with some girl. Matthew
then asked Stephanie to delete their Facebook messages as he
wanted a fresh start. But it's easy to assume that
he just wanted to cover his tracks. And if anyone
had saw what he was messaging Stephanie about murdering people, Oh, okay,
(10:59):
then they.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Would be pretty suspect of him.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and Matthew started acting differently and disting himself from Stephanie.
We'd come back and apologize, and then made her promise
that she would be with him forever and not telling
anybody anything he's ever said to her, And then he
was arrested.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Good because Stephanie needs a fucking break from that side.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
It took nearly three years for the trial to start,
so he was arrested when he was fifteen, he was
tried when he was eighteen, and he was tried as
an adult.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Despite only being fifteen when he committed the crime. I
don't know how I feel about that, tho okay.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Many people gave evidence, including his friends involved in the robbery,
and Stephanie gave evidence to his defense argued that there
had never been a murder weapon recovered or anything identifying
what was used to decapitate Lee, and no blood ordain
any evidence linked Matthew to the crime. Jurors took nine
hours to deliberate and found him guilty of first degree
(11:58):
murder with deliberate premi diditation and extreme atrosty and cruelty.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That was the bold title of the.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Sentence, right, okay, and it's sentencing in July of this year,
Matthew's defense lawyer attempted to argue for a later sentence
due to Matthew's young age at the time, and said
that there should be a hope that he could be rehabilitated.
Lee's family emotionally requested the harshest and longest sentence possible,
and the judge appeared really visibly affected by the severity
(12:27):
of the murder and sentence Matthew to two life sentences,
and in accordance with state law, he would be eligible
to apply for parole in thirty years. Matthew's lawyers intend
to appeal this sentence.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Is I mean, he sounds like he's probably a psychopath, yeah,
the way he was acting, So it's probably a good
thing that he has locked up that long. I get it.
But if he gets out on parole in thirty years
after being in jail from the age of fifteen fifteen,
where your brain is still forming, I mean that psycho
persons can be perfected.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I mean, that's two boys lives that are lost now,
you know, the person that he murdered and his own life.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Because whoever else he might kill if he gets out, Yeah,
if he that go yeah, because he's not going to
stop being a psychopath. He's just going to get better at.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It, yeah, in prison, and he's just gonna adapt a
prison life because he's known that for more than the
rest of his life. He's known captivity longer than.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, unless he does a complete change and like
embraces like the education that they have in there, in
the system and all that that they can get in there.
But the chances are not great, are they.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
No?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Not usually no. So that's that's my tail. That's a
good one. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Hello everyone, Let me tell you about the Apple for
the Teacher podcast. I'm Anatomas, a teacher and your host.
So you're probably thinking it's about reading, writing, and arithmetic, right, Well,
think again. It's a fresh take on true crime where
you wouldn't expect to find true crime in schools. Yes, schools.
(14:10):
You will hear tragic and shocking stories that I have
uncovered in my own profession. You'll hear about murder, abduction, hijack, misconduct,
student disappearance, suicide, kidnap, and ransom and much much more. So.
If you're looking for something a little different in the
(14:31):
true crime genre, then Apple for the Teacher is for you.
You can find the podcast on iTunes, Spotify or wherever
you download your podcasts. So join me as I present
people behaving badly, the bad Apples. Looking forward to seeing
you soon, but until then, remember to be a good Apple.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, Dopy, So I am talking about the Kingsbury Run
or Torso murders multiples, multiples, which took place between nineteen
thirty five and nineteen thirty eight. My dad was one
to four years old. That's cute. So I got all
(15:24):
of this from an article that was put out by
the Cleveland Police Museum, which is the place I really
want to go to. That sounds cool. They've got like
murdership in there. A police museum, a police museum in Cleveland,
but it's not like just police stuff. It's like crime
scene stuff and like evidence and it looks amazing awesome. Anyway,
in the nineteen thirties, Cleveland was a boom town with
(15:47):
a steel manufacturing industry and very wealthy upper class. Oh,
I didn't know that. I think it's because it's become
a shithole. Okay, it was a sorry of people in Cleveland.
I'm sure it's nice. It was in the Great Depression,
But in Cleveland the people were starting to show signs
of recovery because of their industry. Oh good, so they
were doing better than probably a majority of the nation. Wow.
(16:09):
Beginning in nineteen thirty four, though, thirteen people were brudely
murdered over four years. All of the victims were decapitated
and some while they were still alive. Ah Oh, that's bad.
That's bad decapitation. That's the worst kind of decapitation that
can be decapitated. Well man, So elliot Ness did claim
(16:30):
to as solve the crime, but no suspect was ever
identified and they remained unsolved to this day. Still okay,
still unsolved. So the area of Kingsbury Run in Cleveland
was like dark, dangerous. It was the poorest people living there.
It was almost like a shanty town and they lived
in like third world conditions. Okay, So if you picture
like Soweto in South Africa or just a shanty town
(16:52):
with really basic basics, just to the east were just
the east of like the shanty town where they kind
of had their their bars, their flophouses, their brothels, four
flop posts. I knew you were going to ask, so
I looked it up before this episode. Okay, Jesus, I
am good. At this flophouse is basically like a hostel.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, Okay, yeah, I never understood what it was either,
but it's basically like a cheap hostil situation where you
can just go and get a bed.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Okay. In September of nineteen thirty four, the lower half
of a woman's torso, with the thighs still attached, washed
up on the shore of Lake Erie. One thigh or
two two? Okay, just because she said the thigh so
I just thought, oh, don't want to say thighs. Well
maybe you did. I only heard thigh okay. Well she
had two thighs okay, and they were both still attached, okay,
(17:41):
And she washed up on the shore. The corner noted
that some sort of chemical preservative had been used on
the skin, turning it red and tough and leathery. Interesting.
I have no idea what that would be, and just
I don't know. I don't know either. It was really weird.
Maybe like you know what they do with like hides
to make a lather, I know, but we're still attached
(18:02):
to the tissue, oh, because like they'd stretch it and
do stuff to it, and this stuff forever. I know,
really weird. Somebody parts of the woman, who was in
her mid thirties, were found, but not her head. She
was dubbed the Lady of the Lake. Oh yeah, which
is kind of nice. In September of nineteen thirty five,
(18:24):
two boys found the decapitated and mutilated corpse of a
white male near Kingsbury run a man this time. Yeah, yeah,
I know those kids were not Okay, they probably did
not grow up. Okay. The body was nude aside from socks,
and the penis had been removed. Okay, interesting, right, really
chosen which parts you're removing from these people? Yeah. He
(18:46):
had been drained of blood and there were rope burns
on both of his wrists. The cause of death was decapitation,
which meant he was decapitated while alive. Uh huh worst,
that's the worst. Fingerprints idid the man as Edward Androsi Androssi.
He appeared to be a homosexual sex worker. Another body
(19:07):
of a forty year old white male with the same
chemical marks as the lady of the Lake was found nearby.
He had been dead for a couple of weeks and
was never ideed. Okay. In January of nineteen thirty six,
half the body of a woman was found neatly packaged
in newspaper and placed in two baskets outside of a factory.
Also not in the lake now this time, nope. Okay.
(19:27):
The rest of the body, not the head, was found
ten days later in a vacant lot and the cause
of death was again decapitation. She was killed with bi
or had been cut off. Fingerprints ided the woman as
Florence Poulio Polilo Polilo, who was a waitress, barmaid and
sex worker who lived near Kingsbury Run. In June of
(19:48):
that year, two boys again found a head wrapped in
trousers in Kingsbury Run, with the body of a twenty
year old man being found the next day. It was cleaned, drained,
and again death was decapitation. Is that the first head
that they found? Or I defend other heads?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I think I was the only head? Wow? Yeah, I
wonder what made that one so special? I don't know,
not special or not special because they wrapped it in trousers,
which is weird. Yeah. He was never identified anyway. So
after two more murders of men, both decapitated, the mayor
appointed the safety director, who was Elliot Nass. I think
(20:30):
it's Kevin Costner, right, didn't he play Elliot Ness in
a movie? I don't know. I know you look at
me like, why are you even talking about this?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I definitely recognize the name. He ended up going to
the FBI, right alias.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, he was well. I don't know. He was in
something and he was really good at crime fighting. I
don't know. I'm gonna look this love later because I
feel bad that I don't know that. I'm just gonna
say Kama Costner. Okay, I think it's Kama Costner. So
the mayor got him to take on the case. I
think it was already really well known. Yeah, he was
like the promo boy. He was always in all the papers.
(21:05):
So more than fifteen hundred people were interviewed by two
detectives who were working the case, specifically in Kingsbury Run,
and then over the entire investigation, the department interviewed more
than five thousand people. Wow, that's a lot of work.
That's a lot of work, and especially back in the days,
like that's a lot of writing. Yeah, because you had
no computers in there were no computers. Were they type
(21:28):
I don't know. Somebody had to fucking type that. It
was the biggest police investigation in Cleveland history. So five
more victims were found between nineteen thirty six and nineteen
thirty eight, five women and one man. Right, so indiscriminate,
He does not care. It doesn't seem at all. In
August of nineteen thirty eight, Elliot Ness took a group
of thirty five police officers around midnight the Kingsbury Row
(21:52):
for a raid. They gathered sixty three men, searched the shacks,
and then set all of the shacks on fire. What police,
I was a bit of a dick move. So the
press totally like criticized him for this and they were like,
what the fuck is wrong with you? Elliot asked like,
that was a total dick move, and he got a
(22:13):
lot of bad press about it. But afterwards the murder stopped. Oh,
which is like warning or I don't know. I guess
maybe I don't. I don't know. I clearly have no idea.
I don't know. If it was like the person just
left and was like, fuck this, the police are getting
way too close. Yeah, or he thought, actually, I'm causing
(22:34):
harm to the people I'm living with and my own family,
so I'm not gonna do I find it really hard
to believe that somebody would stop that, though I know
it doesn't seem.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Likely, especially with how extreme it was and how good
they were not getting caught out.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It was the thirties, I mean, I know you could
pretty much do anything. In July of nineteen thirty nine,
a fifty two year old bricklayer was arrested for one
of the murders, and he actually knew two of the
other victims. Okay, but then when you think about a
shanty town, everybody knows everybody. True.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, so I don't think there's anything to that necessarily
just be a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah. His confession and quotation marks was both confused ramblings
and precise details. So he would like make absolutely no sense,
but come up with some really specific details. And they
say that kind of indicates they'd been coached by the
police on what to say. I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Before trial, Frank de Lezel was found dead in his cell.
(23:34):
Who was the fifty two year old bricklayer. Oh okay.
He was five foot eight and hung himself on a
hook that was seven inches off of the floor. He
had several broken ribs.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Okay, well that's that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I don't think he hulf other computer says no. So
they say, now he was totally unlikely to have been
the murderer. I don't think they got close.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
No, but the person stopped or they'd moved on, and
just where we're doing it elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I know, that's the thing. Like you'd have to then look,
and I don't know if anybody has I haven't where
there was another spat of the headings. Yeah, maybe he
moved somewhere where it wasn't noticed as much. Maybe he
went to jail for.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Something else or something else, but maybe died. Maybe he died, Yeah,
like maybe got fucking TV or something. Yeah, but it
stopped as soon as though shanties were burned down. Interesting, Yeah,
and that was over three years. Did you say it
was four years?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Four years? Okay, yeah, good one, Holly, thank you, I'm welcome. Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
So we'd already started this discussion because producer Craig through
asked some questions that we didn't know how to answer.
But wait before we go in me to tell people
that we were right. Oh, oh, you're so right about stuff.
Elliott n Elliott NS was one hundred percent, Kevin, you
were super right about that, I was saying, Am I right?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So he was a special agent but for the Bureau
of Prohibition, so he was sort of instrumental and sort
of catching the gangsters like al Caporne and things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So yeah, we were kind of right. We were still right.
I'm surprised. I'm very surprised. I never get the right
people in movies, except for obviously my guy. Oh yes,
of course, your obsession obsession with continues. All right, so beheading, yes, now,
Producer Craig was all like, what if it was blunt?
(25:37):
Blah blah blah. I don't think they were blunt, but
I don't know that for a fact that's true. You
brought up guillotine, Yes, I don't think he carried a
guillotine around. Yeah, I think that's kind of cumbersome. But
did you know a guillotine was actually invented because it
was the most humane way to kill people, and it
was reserved for the upper class.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh yeah, Well I suppose it's true because it's quick.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, I don't see it coming. Yeah. Although when I
was trying to do other research on beheading, the only
thing I kept coming up with is how long the
head stays alive after it's not on your body? And
how long does it Well I don't know. I didn't
read any of the stuff, but it looked like it
was like a minute. Oh man, can you imagine just
being like, oh this is new for a minute. I
suppose you would want to be dead before that. I
(26:23):
think I would want to be dead before I'm just ahead.
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, people, I suppose it depends how
you're gonna die though. If it's a guillotine as quick, yeah,
but you're alive, I'm going afterwards. Yeah, but how you
die beforehand might be more painful than the guillotine. Mm hmmm.
So if a guillotine is I don't know, fucking we're
(26:44):
going down a rabbit hole. How do would we rather die? Well,
definitely not my guy. I'm picking your guy, even though
he stabbed him a million billion times.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I did not want to go out with just getting
my head chopped off immediately, especially if it wasn't a guillotine,
because I don't think you can do that quickly if
you've got well, I suppose some of them were tied up, right,
they were.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Tied up, and I'm pretty sure like they didn't fight
back because they would have seen that probably. Yeah, I
don't want to get stabbed seventy times either. It's a
tough one, but I like, can I just say I
when I was sixteen years old, I remember this vividly,
even though I'm a lot older than that now. I
had a dream that somebody came up behind me and
(27:30):
cut my throat. Oh okay, and I woke up after
they had started cutting my throat open, uh huh. And
it stays with me, and it is the worst feeling.
And I'm saying this like I'm actually had my throat
cut open. I haven't had but the feeling of somebody
standing behind you and holding you and I had not
stopped them, and you can feel somebody cutting your throat
and you're like, I can't stop this. I'm going to die.
(27:52):
It's horrible. It was absolutely horrible. I don't know how
that helps the situation anymore. I don't think it does.
I don't want to be alive when my head's cut off,
is what I'm boiling that down to. I don't know.
I kind of think I'm going towards Europe people.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Really it's because it was faster, yeah, faster, okay. Yeah,
And I suppose we can't know for sure how we
did it because we don't know who it was and
we don't know any weapons.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And it's like the Police Museum article says, unlikely to
ever be solved because yeah, there's just fucking nothing.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, And it was so long ago. Yeah, yeah, I
think I'm picking your guy. Wow, I know controversial, all right,
well we are disagreeing.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah. Interesting. Anyway, that was a really good episode. It
was good. I like a decapitation story.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
It's just like almost another step into the extreme part.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, when you think about it, everything we do is
to protect our head. You know, when you duck down,
you put your hands on your head, you cover your eyes,
you cover your face, you put on helmets. You've got
a thick skull. Instinctive, it's instinctive. I mean, you know,
stuff can happen to the rest of your body and
you can potentially survive it your head. No, no, So
(29:09):
I think it's just bred into us to think that
is the most harm that a body can go through. Interesting. Yeah,
well thanks for listening, guys. Please thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Please give us a little rate and review on iTunes.
That would be awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, and talk to us on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook
or grip Facebook group because look up the Facebook group.
We pretty much approve everybody. So whatever we're at which
Murderer for all of that, We're which Murderer on Reddit.
If you want to talk to me on there. Just
be nice and don't freak me out, because Reddit really
makes me nervous. Still. I'm like a squirrel in the
(29:45):
headlights on Reddit right now. So yeah, you're getting there.
I'm getting there. You get more comfortable with them. I'm
getting there, but it still terrifies me. When that article
blew or that the post blew up with all the comments,
I was like, I can handle it, can handle it.
There's so much pressure.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
He did well, and we will see you next week, guys,
we will Bye bye. We're which Murderer. You can find
us on Twitter and Instagram at which Murderer. You can
find us on Facebook, Facebook dot com, forward slash, which.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
M r d R.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You can email us Which Murderer at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Our theme music is kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Artwork was done by Wild Creations at fiver dot com
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Again
If you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi Holly, Hi Jimmy. How's it going right? How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm good, thank you, I'm good, excellent. We are
which murderer?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
We are? Which murderer? See how quick we said that
this time? Yes we did?
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You know exactly who we are within the first thirty seconds.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I wonder of producer Craig noticed, He's nodding. He says,
he noticed. I'm glad you noticed. I'm glad you noticed.
Because he nexts us incessantly about who we are all
the time, all the time. I mean, give it a rest, man,
I know.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So this week we're speaking about, well, I've put beheadings,
which I think is a bit more of a biblical term.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
For it, but I suppose it's the apputations. Yeah, I
put to capitation. Yeah, because I'm all about just being
fucking brutal. I don't know off with it. But first,
we've got a few things that we want to speak about.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
So I want to mention the lovely podcast that I
guess did on which launched today that we're recording.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
So that's the twelfth with Good Nurse, Bad Nurse.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yes, it's out today, so please go listen to it
if you if you get a chance.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I will listen tomorrow on the way to work. Yes,
how long is it?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
About an hourish? Maybe maybe a bit longer to get
to work today? Sod bock my life after all the time?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh man? Yeah, oh well that'll help you pass the time,
I think will I'm looking forward to it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So that's with the Lovely Tina. She's amazing. She's an
absolute sweetheart. So give that a liston.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, so one of our upcoming episodes. I was trying
to do some research for. It is basically like what
got you into your crime? In the case I got
you into your crime, and I was interested in what
everybody's cases were to see if there were similarities. Yeah,
Jesus fucking Christ read it blew up on me. I
was so stressed out because I felt like I had
(02:10):
to reply to every single person and all, you're too
nice that way. Sometimes I'm Canadian, but oh my god.
There were so many comments and it was really really interesting,
like you could totally tell the people who grew up
the same time as you.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, based on who they were interested, based on who
they were interested.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
A ton about John Benny Ramsey, Yeah, a ton about
like the Black Dahlia. There were a few old school ones. Actually,
there was a couple like really old school ones where
they talked about Bundy and stuff and I was interesting. Okay, yeah,
it was really really cool. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I suppose that's under about the time when you were
sort of growing up was when true crane probably the
interest and.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It really exploded that point. Yeah. Well yeah, I mean
basically every child in the eighties was at risk of
being murdered. Yeah, constantly, all the time, constantly, and none
of us, like our parents and parents really don't care. Yeah,
I mean did not give two No, I was running
ramp it through the neighborhood in diapers, no other clothes
from the age of two. Nobody cared.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
That's just yeah, it does not make sense to me,
doesn't compute. That's how people would love.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, And the other thing I just want to say is,
I know people have sent us their promos and stuff
to put in We're working through a back catalog and
we're kind of looking at the structures of our shows.
But we will get to you eventually, So don't worry
if you haven't heard your promo yet. We will get
in there eventually. Yeah, We're all about promoting you guys.
So yes, I love promoting other podcasts. I think it's
(03:33):
a good community. So it is. We're trying to be
supportive as much as we can.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Indeed, so I'm going first this week, yes, and I'm
speaking about.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Matthew Borges.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Now Matthew spells his name with one T, but I'm
still just kind of calling Matthew.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
What does he have an age there? Yeah, yeah, that's
still Matthew one or two? Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So Matthew was what appear to be a very energetic,
fun and sociable teenager. He had a few girlfriends in
his early teens, and they said that he was quite
jealous throughout their relationship, even at a young age, right,
And they said also they had this kind of like
dark side and quite moody as well.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But that kind of sounds like most teenagers. Fair that
is the age of twelve to nineteen and every single
human teenager very much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So when Matthew was fifteen, in September twenty sixteen, so
it's quite a recent case. Oh yeah, he started dating
a girl called Stephanie who went to his school in Boston.
The pair would skip classes and were in constant contact.
So you know, as teenagers are these days with phones
in that they were just texting all day, every day,
(04:47):
all the time that they were awake.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
See, back in the day, you were either on the
phone for hours or you didn't hear from them. Yeah,
you didn't have that option. No, I know, and in
a way, you know, you're less free in that sense.
You you don't have the choice.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
You're sort of expected to always reply to people now
and you just don't seem to have that freedom anymore. Which, yeah,
especially for teenagers, that must be quite a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Is a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, So initially their message started off as sweet and romantic.
Matthew would call Stephanie beautiful and would give her all
these lovely nicknames and all the emmotocons and pretty much
all the messages which I have to say, I'm a
fan of amoticon.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's the easiest way to say
nice or cool or I'm happy or whatever was that
having to type words? Yeah, I love it, I'm all
for it. And Matthew also said that he wanted Stephanie
to be his wife, but he had goals to achieve.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
First sody like, what's that puberty. Yeah, sixteen, I mean,
come on, just chill. Matthew's messages has definitely started getting darker.
He spoke about his demons and said that he thought
about killing people and liking the sound of causing someone pain.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Okay, Stephanie, that is a warning sign.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yes, So Stephanie tried to message and say that she
wanted to help them. Sometimes I feel like, when you
know you're seeing that thing on your phone, it doesn't
really you can't comprehend how messed up that is because
it's sort of it's on your phone, you're not speaking
to someone in person, And I kind of think maybe
that's what she was thinking. Matthew said he would hide
(06:26):
his thoughts in the back of his mind like he
always did. He said he thought about killing someone every day,
but he controlled himself. And then he spoke about how
people who had done things like that lost their humanity
and had dark and dead eyes that no longer shone,
and that that person didn't have a soul, and he
said that his eyes would look like that the next
(06:48):
time Stephanie saw him, and he said that he would
kill anybody that got in the way of what he wanted.
So he's very fixated on this thought.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's quite prescriptive. I will say as a teenage boy, Emo, Dick,
I mean so much.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It really just sounds like he's one of those people
that you know are maybe a little bit like us.
They're like obsessed with sort of like the dark, like
murder parts.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
People don't know that they're obsessed with. Yeah, look at me,
I'm so dark. It is very much an image for them. Yeah,
he took that a step further though.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
So before he was dating this girl Stephanie, he was
dating another girl called Lalaune and they broke up because
Matthew had accused her of being with other boys in
the school and he mentioned one of his own friends
by name, and that person was Lee Manuel Valoria Paulino,
thank you, And so he also then got annoyed at
(07:47):
Stephanie for speaking to this person as well.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
They had a Facebook group.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Called The Game Winners that Matthew and some other friends
were on, and Matthew and that group of friends made
a plan to rob Lee's house and steal his PlayStation, clothes,
and other valuables. The plan was that Matthew would take
Lee out and distract him while the other boys robbed
his bedroom. So on November the eighteenth, twenty sixteen, Matthew
(08:15):
went to Lee's house around about five point thirty pm
and invited him down the river to smoke some weed
and hang out. Matthew was still only fifteen at this
point and Lee was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Where was this? This was in Boston. Oh my god,
that'd be freezing yeow okay.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
So once they got there, it's kind of hard to
say what caused it because Matthew hasn't been very forthcoming
with any informations, but there's some possibilities that I can assume.
So either Matthew had it planned exactly what he was
going to do that evening and knew he was going
to kill Lee as soon as he got there, and
he prepared for it, and he started killing him pretty
much as soon as he got there as well, Or
(08:54):
an argument broke out and Matthew somehow had weapons on
him and killed them towards the first because well, Lee
was stabbed seventy times seventy yeah, and had his head
and his hands chopped off, So wow, to have that
amount of weaponry on you just for just in case,
(09:15):
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Really make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So I really think that he had planned this out,
but the other group of boys, they seemed to just
think that this was a robbery. So they went ahead
and stole the things out of Lee's bedroom, and then
Matthew phoned them saying he'd killed Lee and had chopped
the head off.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Him so that he wouldn't get caught. Okay, well, good idea,
telling everybody. Yeah, that makes sense. Just tell all your friends.
Do you remember what I said once, like, you should
not kill people before the age of twenty five because
you are not capable of thought.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
No, you just don't make any right Well, you're not
making any right decisions by killing anybody, but you're not
trying to cover.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yourself, do you know what I mean? Like, if you're
gonna kill somebody, I can't stop you, But don't do
it before you're twenty five, because your brain is just
not good at making it decisions. Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Yeah, just give yourself a cooling off period, and once
you get twenty five, that's when you can.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I mean, if you can do it's gonna stop you.
I'm not telling you to go do it, but you
know what I mean, I do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So Lee was reported missing and it appears that Matthew
just left his sort of torso and the rest of
his body on the banks of the river and threw
the head and the hands into the river itself. And
Matthew and his friends were able to keep that quiet
for weeks until a dog walker found Lee's torso at
the riverside on the first of December. Okay, Stephanie had
(10:35):
asked Matthew and that period that Lee was missing, you know,
if he'd heard from Lee, and Matthew said that he hadn't,
and he assumed Lee was just with some girl. Matthew
then asked Stephanie to delete their Facebook messages as he
wanted a fresh start. But it's easy to assume that
he just wanted to cover his tracks. And if anyone
had saw what he was messaging Stephanie about murdering people, Oh, okay,
(10:59):
then they.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Would be pretty suspect of him.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, and Matthew started acting differently and disting himself from Stephanie.
We'd come back and apologize, and then made her promise
that she would be with him forever and not telling
anybody anything he's ever said to her, And then he
was arrested.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Good because Stephanie needs a fucking break from that side.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
It took nearly three years for the trial to start,
so he was arrested when he was fifteen, he was
tried when he was eighteen, and he was tried as
an adult.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Despite only being fifteen when he committed the crime. I
don't know how I feel about that, tho okay.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Many people gave evidence, including his friends involved in the robbery,
and Stephanie gave evidence to his defense argued that there
had never been a murder weapon recovered or anything identifying
what was used to decapitate Lee, and no blood ordain
any evidence linked Matthew to the crime. Jurors took nine
hours to deliberate and found him guilty of first degree
(11:58):
murder with deliberate premi diditation and extreme atrosty and cruelty.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
That was the bold title of the.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Sentence, right, okay, and it's sentencing in July of this year,
Matthew's defense lawyer attempted to argue for a later sentence
due to Matthew's young age at the time, and said
that there should be a hope that he could be rehabilitated.
Lee's family emotionally requested the harshest and longest sentence possible,
and the judge appeared really visibly affected by the severity
(12:27):
of the murder and sentence Matthew to two life sentences,
and in accordance with state law, he would be eligible
to apply for parole in thirty years. Matthew's lawyers intend
to appeal this sentence.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Is I mean, he sounds like he's probably a psychopath, yeah,
the way he was acting, So it's probably a good
thing that he has locked up that long. I get it.
But if he gets out on parole in thirty years
after being in jail from the age of fifteen fifteen,
where your brain is still forming, I mean that psycho
persons can be perfected.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I mean, that's two boys lives that are lost now,
you know, the person that he murdered and his own life.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Because whoever else he might kill if he gets out, Yeah,
if he that go yeah, because he's not going to
stop being a psychopath. He's just going to get better at.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It, yeah, in prison, and he's just gonna adapt a
prison life because he's known that for more than the
rest of his life. He's known captivity longer than.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, unless he does a complete change and like
embraces like the education that they have in there, in
the system and all that that they can get in there.
But the chances are not great, are they.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
No?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Not usually no. So that's that's my tail. That's a
good one. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Hello everyone, Let me tell you about the Apple for
the Teacher podcast. I'm Anatomas, a teacher and your host.
So you're probably thinking it's about reading, writing, and arithmetic, right, Well,
think again. It's a fresh take on true crime where
you wouldn't expect to find true crime in schools. Yes, schools.
(14:10):
You will hear tragic and shocking stories that I have
uncovered in my own profession. You'll hear about murder, abduction, hijack, misconduct,
student disappearance, suicide, kidnap, and ransom and much much more. So.
If you're looking for something a little different in the
(14:31):
true crime genre, then Apple for the Teacher is for you.
You can find the podcast on iTunes, Spotify or wherever
you download your podcasts. So join me as I present
people behaving badly, the bad Apples. Looking forward to seeing
you soon, but until then, remember to be a good Apple.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, Dopy, So I am talking about the Kingsbury Run
or Torso murders multiples, multiples, which took place between nineteen
thirty five and nineteen thirty eight. My dad was one
to four years old. That's cute. So I got all
(15:24):
of this from an article that was put out by
the Cleveland Police Museum, which is the place I really
want to go to. That sounds cool. They've got like
murdership in there. A police museum, a police museum in Cleveland,
but it's not like just police stuff. It's like crime
scene stuff and like evidence and it looks amazing awesome. Anyway,
in the nineteen thirties, Cleveland was a boom town with
(15:47):
a steel manufacturing industry and very wealthy upper class. Oh,
I didn't know that. I think it's because it's become
a shithole. Okay, it was a sorry of people in Cleveland.
I'm sure it's nice. It was in the Great Depression,
But in Cleveland the people were starting to show signs
of recovery because of their industry. Oh good, so they
were doing better than probably a majority of the nation. Wow.
(16:09):
Beginning in nineteen thirty four, though, thirteen people were brudely
murdered over four years. All of the victims were decapitated
and some while they were still alive. Ah Oh, that's bad.
That's bad decapitation. That's the worst kind of decapitation that
can be decapitated. Well man, So elliot Ness did claim
(16:30):
to as solve the crime, but no suspect was ever
identified and they remained unsolved to this day. Still okay,
still unsolved. So the area of Kingsbury Run in Cleveland
was like dark, dangerous. It was the poorest people living there.
It was almost like a shanty town and they lived
in like third world conditions. Okay, So if you picture
like Soweto in South Africa or just a shanty town
(16:52):
with really basic basics, just to the east were just
the east of like the shanty town where they kind
of had their their bars, their flophouses, their brothels, four
flop posts. I knew you were going to ask, so
I looked it up before this episode. Okay, Jesus, I
am good. At this flophouse is basically like a hostel.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, Okay, yeah, I never understood what it was either,
but it's basically like a cheap hostil situation where you
can just go and get a bed.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Okay. In September of nineteen thirty four, the lower half
of a woman's torso, with the thighs still attached, washed
up on the shore of Lake Erie. One thigh or
two two? Okay, just because she said the thigh so
I just thought, oh, don't want to say thighs. Well
maybe you did. I only heard thigh okay. Well she
had two thighs okay, and they were both still attached, okay,
(17:41):
And she washed up on the shore. The corner noted
that some sort of chemical preservative had been used on
the skin, turning it red and tough and leathery. Interesting.
I have no idea what that would be, and just
I don't know. I don't know either. It was really weird.
Maybe like you know what they do with like hides
to make a lather, I know, but we're still attached
(18:02):
to the tissue, oh, because like they'd stretch it and
do stuff to it, and this stuff forever. I know,
really weird. Somebody parts of the woman, who was in
her mid thirties, were found, but not her head. She
was dubbed the Lady of the Lake. Oh yeah, which
is kind of nice. In September of nineteen thirty five,
(18:24):
two boys found the decapitated and mutilated corpse of a
white male near Kingsbury run a man this time. Yeah, yeah,
I know those kids were not Okay, they probably did
not grow up. Okay. The body was nude aside from socks,
and the penis had been removed. Okay, interesting, right, really
chosen which parts you're removing from these people? Yeah. He
(18:46):
had been drained of blood and there were rope burns
on both of his wrists. The cause of death was decapitation,
which meant he was decapitated while alive. Uh huh worst,
that's the worst. Fingerprints idid the man as Edward Androsi Androssi.
He appeared to be a homosexual sex worker. Another body
(19:07):
of a forty year old white male with the same
chemical marks as the lady of the Lake was found nearby.
He had been dead for a couple of weeks and
was never ideed. Okay. In January of nineteen thirty six,
half the body of a woman was found neatly packaged
in newspaper and placed in two baskets outside of a factory.
Also not in the lake now this time, nope. Okay.
(19:27):
The rest of the body, not the head, was found
ten days later in a vacant lot and the cause
of death was again decapitation. She was killed with bi
or had been cut off. Fingerprints ided the woman as
Florence Poulio Polilo Polilo, who was a waitress, barmaid and
sex worker who lived near Kingsbury Run. In June of
(19:48):
that year, two boys again found a head wrapped in
trousers in Kingsbury Run, with the body of a twenty
year old man being found the next day. It was cleaned, drained,
and again death was decapitation. Is that the first head
that they found? Or I defend other heads?
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I think I was the only head? Wow? Yeah, I
wonder what made that one so special? I don't know,
not special or not special because they wrapped it in trousers,
which is weird. Yeah. He was never identified anyway. So
after two more murders of men, both decapitated, the mayor
appointed the safety director, who was Elliot Nass. I think
(20:30):
it's Kevin Costner, right, didn't he play Elliot Ness in
a movie? I don't know. I know you look at
me like, why are you even talking about this?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I definitely recognize the name. He ended up going to
the FBI, right alias.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah, he was well. I don't know. He was in
something and he was really good at crime fighting. I
don't know. I'm gonna look this love later because I
feel bad that I don't know that. I'm just gonna
say Kama Costner. Okay, I think it's Kama Costner. So
the mayor got him to take on the case. I
think it was already really well known. Yeah, he was
like the promo boy. He was always in all the papers.
(21:05):
So more than fifteen hundred people were interviewed by two
detectives who were working the case, specifically in Kingsbury Run,
and then over the entire investigation, the department interviewed more
than five thousand people. Wow, that's a lot of work.
That's a lot of work, and especially back in the days,
like that's a lot of writing. Yeah, because you had
no computers in there were no computers. Were they type
(21:28):
I don't know. Somebody had to fucking type that. It
was the biggest police investigation in Cleveland history. So five
more victims were found between nineteen thirty six and nineteen
thirty eight, five women and one man. Right, so indiscriminate,
He does not care. It doesn't seem at all. In
August of nineteen thirty eight, Elliot Ness took a group
of thirty five police officers around midnight the Kingsbury Row
(21:52):
for a raid. They gathered sixty three men, searched the shacks,
and then set all of the shacks on fire. What police,
I was a bit of a dick move. So the
press totally like criticized him for this and they were like,
what the fuck is wrong with you? Elliot asked like,
that was a total dick move, and he got a
(22:13):
lot of bad press about it. But afterwards the murder stopped. Oh,
which is like warning or I don't know. I guess
maybe I don't. I don't know. I clearly have no idea.
I don't know. If it was like the person just
left and was like, fuck this, the police are getting
way too close. Yeah, or he thought, actually, I'm causing
(22:34):
harm to the people I'm living with and my own family,
so I'm not gonna do I find it really hard
to believe that somebody would stop that, though I know
it doesn't seem.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Likely, especially with how extreme it was and how good
they were not getting caught out.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It was the thirties, I mean, I know you could
pretty much do anything. In July of nineteen thirty nine,
a fifty two year old bricklayer was arrested for one
of the murders, and he actually knew two of the
other victims. Okay, but then when you think about a
shanty town, everybody knows everybody. True.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, so I don't think there's anything to that necessarily
just be a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah. His confession and quotation marks was both confused ramblings
and precise details. So he would like make absolutely no sense,
but come up with some really specific details. And they
say that kind of indicates they'd been coached by the
police on what to say. I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah.
Before trial, Frank de Lezel was found dead in his cell.
(23:34):
Who was the fifty two year old bricklayer. Oh okay.
He was five foot eight and hung himself on a
hook that was seven inches off of the floor. He
had several broken ribs.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Okay, well that's that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I don't think he hulf other computer says no. So
they say, now he was totally unlikely to have been
the murderer. I don't think they got close.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
No, but the person stopped or they'd moved on, and
just where we're doing it elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I know, that's the thing. Like you'd have to then look,
and I don't know if anybody has I haven't where
there was another spat of the headings. Yeah, maybe he
moved somewhere where it wasn't noticed as much. Maybe he
went to jail for.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Something else or something else, but maybe died. Maybe he died, Yeah,
like maybe got fucking TV or something. Yeah, but it
stopped as soon as though shanties were burned down. Interesting, Yeah,
and that was over three years. Did you say it
was four years?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Four years? Okay, yeah, good one, Holly, thank you, I'm welcome. Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
So we'd already started this discussion because producer Craig through
asked some questions that we didn't know how to answer.
But wait before we go in me to tell people
that we were right. Oh, oh, you're so right about stuff.
Elliott n Elliott NS was one hundred percent, Kevin, you
were super right about that, I was saying, Am I right?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
So he was a special agent but for the Bureau
of Prohibition, so he was sort of instrumental and sort
of catching the gangsters like al Caporne and things like that.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So yeah, we were kind of right. We were still right.
I'm surprised. I'm very surprised. I never get the right
people in movies, except for obviously my guy. Oh yes,
of course, your obsession obsession with continues. All right, so beheading, yes, now,
Producer Craig was all like, what if it was blunt?
(25:37):
Blah blah blah. I don't think they were blunt, but
I don't know that for a fact that's true. You
brought up guillotine, Yes, I don't think he carried a
guillotine around. Yeah, I think that's kind of cumbersome. But
did you know a guillotine was actually invented because it
was the most humane way to kill people, and it
was reserved for the upper class.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh yeah, Well I suppose it's true because it's quick.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Yeah, I don't see it coming. Yeah. Although when I
was trying to do other research on beheading, the only
thing I kept coming up with is how long the
head stays alive after it's not on your body? And
how long does it Well I don't know. I didn't
read any of the stuff, but it looked like it
was like a minute. Oh man, can you imagine just
being like, oh this is new for a minute. I
suppose you would want to be dead before that. I
(26:23):
think I would want to be dead before I'm just ahead.
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, people, I suppose it depends how
you're gonna die though. If it's a guillotine as quick, yeah,
but you're alive, I'm going afterwards. Yeah, but how you
die beforehand might be more painful than the guillotine. Mm hmmm.
So if a guillotine is I don't know, fucking we're
(26:44):
going down a rabbit hole. How do would we rather die? Well,
definitely not my guy. I'm picking your guy, even though
he stabbed him a million billion times.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
I did not want to go out with just getting
my head chopped off immediately, especially if it wasn't a guillotine,
because I don't think you can do that quickly if
you've got well, I suppose some of them were tied up, right,
they were.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Tied up, and I'm pretty sure like they didn't fight
back because they would have seen that probably. Yeah, I
don't want to get stabbed seventy times either. It's a
tough one, but I like, can I just say I
when I was sixteen years old, I remember this vividly,
even though I'm a lot older than that now. I
had a dream that somebody came up behind me and
(27:30):
cut my throat. Oh okay, and I woke up after
they had started cutting my throat open, uh huh. And
it stays with me, and it is the worst feeling.
And I'm saying this like I'm actually had my throat
cut open. I haven't had but the feeling of somebody
standing behind you and holding you and I had not
stopped them, and you can feel somebody cutting your throat
and you're like, I can't stop this. I'm going to die.
(27:52):
It's horrible. It was absolutely horrible. I don't know how
that helps the situation anymore. I don't think it does.
I don't want to be alive when my head's cut off,
is what I'm boiling that down to. I don't know.
I kind of think I'm going towards Europe people.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Really it's because it was faster, yeah, faster, okay. Yeah,
And I suppose we can't know for sure how we
did it because we don't know who it was and
we don't know any weapons.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And it's like the Police Museum article says, unlikely to
ever be solved because yeah, there's just fucking nothing.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, And it was so long ago. Yeah, yeah, I
think I'm picking your guy. Wow, I know controversial, all right,
well we are disagreeing.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah. Interesting. Anyway, that was a really good episode. It
was good. I like a decapitation story.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
It's just like almost another step into the extreme part.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Well, when you think about it, everything we do is
to protect our head. You know, when you duck down,
you put your hands on your head, you cover your eyes,
you cover your face, you put on helmets. You've got
a thick skull. Instinctive, it's instinctive. I mean, you know,
stuff can happen to the rest of your body and
you can potentially survive it your head. No, no, So
(29:09):
I think it's just bred into us to think that
is the most harm that a body can go through. Interesting. Yeah,
well thanks for listening, guys. Please thank you, and.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Please give us a little rate and review on iTunes.
That would be awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, and talk to us on Twitter, Instagram or Facebook
or grip Facebook group because look up the Facebook group.
We pretty much approve everybody. So whatever we're at which
Murderer for all of that, We're which Murderer on Reddit.
If you want to talk to me on there. Just
be nice and don't freak me out, because Reddit really
makes me nervous. Still. I'm like a squirrel in the
(29:45):
headlights on Reddit right now. So yeah, you're getting there.
I'm getting there. You get more comfortable with them. I'm
getting there, but it still terrifies me. When that article
blew or that the post blew up with all the comments,
I was like, I can handle it, can handle it.
There's so much pressure.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
He did well, and we will see you next week, guys,
we will Bye bye. We're which Murderer. You can find
us on Twitter and Instagram at which Murderer. You can
find us on Facebook, Facebook dot com, forward slash, which.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
M r d R.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
You can email us Which Murderer at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Our theme music is kill Me Again by Blue Bend.
Artwork was done by Wild Creations at fiver dot com
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Again
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