April 3, 2025 • 29 mins
In Season 3 Episode 11 – Solved Their Own Murders – Holly tells the story of Grace May Brown who helped convict her killer after her death before Gemma goes on to tell the sad story of Simon Ng who blogged his murderer into a conviction.
Shoutout to Natalie in Canada – thanks for recommending us! And thoughts go out to Holly’s Mom who is going through a hard time.
In this episode we learn that Producer Craig has planted clues already to solve his own murder via Alexa, the girls figure out a numbering system that has been in place for three seasons (math is still just so hard), boat luggage choices get weird and internet time travel reveals some antique options for talking to the world.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who refused to add a note to his secret evidence for Holly in case Gemma kills them both. So he’s definitely on Holly’s murder list now.
Gemma mostly edited this week. All complaints should be sent to Producer Craig who is very selfish with his evidence storage.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Shoutout to Natalie in Canada – thanks for recommending us! And thoughts go out to Holly’s Mom who is going through a hard time.
In this episode we learn that Producer Craig has planted clues already to solve his own murder via Alexa, the girls figure out a numbering system that has been in place for three seasons (math is still just so hard), boat luggage choices get weird and internet time travel reveals some antique options for talking to the world.
Production, recording and post production completed by Producer Craig who refused to add a note to his secret evidence for Holly in case Gemma kills them both. So he’s definitely on Holly’s murder list now.
Gemma mostly edited this week. All complaints should be sent to Producer Craig who is very selfish with his evidence storage.
www.whichmurderer.com
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Go if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello, Holly, Hi Gemma. How's it going tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Hey? You know I'm pretending to be happy right now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well you're doing a very good job of it.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hey, it's been a week and my holidays been canceled.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Oh yeah, we literally just got word from that. Well
I didn't because it wasn't my holiday, but you literally
just got word of that.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I live read you my email. Yes, yeah, So I'm
a little sad about that because it was at the
end of September and I kind of thought maybe they
could sort of shoot out by then. But I think
what's going on is they're having to rejig their planes
because of the seating arrangements and stuff, So probably half
the people are going and half the people aren't. I
(01:04):
don't know what's going on. I'm just sad because I
really want to go, I know, but maybe it's for
the best.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You can use that time instead to go somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I could, or I could just take the money and
wait for it all to hopefully get better. Yeah, and
maybe go on a better holiday. We will see.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, you deserve it.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We are which murder we.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Are, and we don't even have any shout outs for
you tonight.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So no, I guess I'll shout out to my mom
because she's going through like a really tough day today.
It's a really really hard day for her today. So yeah,
I'm not gonna say on the air because I don't
know if she wants me to, but yeah, she's just
going through a really bad day today. Okay, shout out
to my mom and thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah. So the topic this week as.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
People that were able to solve their own marchin Yeah,
which sounds so strange, but there's so many cases out there.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
There are quite a few. It's very ghost whisper, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is? It is.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, me and Craig were talking about this before we
came on air, and Craig has had this one and
joke for years that he has on his phone or
on his computer or somewhere a note that says Jemma
does it. So yeah, he even tried to save it
to Alexa the other night so that in the event
(02:35):
of his untimely death, then I would be implicated.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Nice, Yeah, but you would be anyway. You've been every
one suspect, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But he's trying to solve his own death before it happens.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Oh right, Craig, you won't see it coming. Trust me,
you will not see it coming.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I've done my research, Bud exactly anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, so that's that was Craig's attempt to try and
solve his own nice.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Very nice. I haven't really thought about how I'm going
to solve my own murder.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, fingers crushed. You won't ever have to.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Oh I probably will at some point. You know how
I am. You know how unsafe I live my life.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So I will avenge you. I will assess you in
solving your murder.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Thank you welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Unless you do.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
It, m then I will not help you.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Craig add a note for me too. Okay, so I'm
going first according to our number system.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yes, oh yeah, we should tell people about our number
system that we only just found out after three seasons.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Or did we tell everyone already?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I don't know if we did. I can't remember that.
Time has no meeting in my brain.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Craig says, we haven't.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, yeah, I believe him. Yeah, maybe so I am
odd numbers yea even Yeah, but what happens in a
two parter.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Then it's still the same, Yeah, because we still name
it the same number.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Of it same, remember, don't we Yeah, on.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
All the odd episodes, Holly goes first and all the evens,
I go first. And I can't believe it's taken as
two three seasons. Yeah, three seasons to figure this out.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Listen, it was the involved numbers. So luckily we figured
it out at all.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Absolutely, Okay, So.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Tonight I am talking about Grace May Brown. Now, she
was born in New York City in eighteen eighty six,
and she was the middle child. I don't think it
was a city. She was just born in New.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
York State, Okay, g Yeah, because the next.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Sentence makes me think that she was the middle child
of a successful dairy farmer and his wife. I got ya,
So probably not in New York City. No, Grace had
the nickname Billy because her favorite song was Won't You
Come Home? Billy Bailey. Now, I was like, what kind
of music was happening in the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, so
(04:55):
I googled it and listened to it, and it's very
did you ever watch The Color Purple a long time ago? Yeah,
it's very much that kind of music. Like it's really catchy, jazzy,
sort of country jazz. I don't know how to call.
I don't know, okay, I don't know what it's actually called,
but it sounds like country jazz to me. So eventually,
(05:16):
like she completely embraced this nickname, and she would sign
all her letters from the kid after Billy the kids.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh, so she had a nickname within a nickname.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, it's cool. It's coody. I like it. In nineteen
oh four, when she was eighteen, Grace moved to Courtland,
which is still in New York State, to live with
her married sister Ada and to work at the new
Gillette script factory. I think that was quite common, was
when like older sisters would go off and get married.
Sometimes I would take any younger sisters to help out
(05:46):
because obviously lots of kids were being popped out in
those days.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, so at around the same time, Chester Ellsworth Gillette
was born in eighteen eighty three in Montana, but he
ended up spending part of his childhood in Washington State.
His parents were financially comfortable but deeply religious, and eventually
gave up what wealth they did have and joined the
(06:12):
Salvation Army okay, which I didn't realize was like a
culty sort of a church thing until I read this,
because I always thought it was just a shop.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, so many people think it as just like a
charity shop. But no, there's so much to it. There's
so much to it.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And I know that they go out and they like
ring bells at Christmas and get money for poor people
and stuff like that. But I didn't realize it was
a whole religion. I did not get that. During Chester's
teenage years, the family traveled around the US along the
West coast and Hawaii sort of area. This was sort
of preaching, okay, though Chester never became religious like his parents.
(06:48):
He was like, I'm not having it. I'm not taking up.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So he was just all long for the raid.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Then. Yeah, he didn't really have a choice. He was
just like one of those kids who just gets strigged
down that sort of road but are like, oh my god,
you guys have to do this. He didn't care about
it at all. Okay. After school, Chester worked several odd
jobs before joining his uncle's skirt factory in nineteen oh five.
The Paths Meet, Yes. Chester met Grace at the factory
(07:14):
and soon began a sexual relationship, which would have been
what in the nineteen twenties, so quite scandalous. Grace believed
that Chester would marry her, but they were from completely
different social backgrounds, and she was considered just a factory girl.
Oh and had he never had any intention of marrying her,
(07:34):
would have never married her. It probably wouldn't have been
accepted by his family if he had, so.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
He would have been obviously management then, and she would
have been like one of the.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Workers, yeah, because I mean, his uncle owned the factory,
so he wouldn't have been he wouldn't have been like
grunting it or anything like that. Yeah. So in the
spring of nineteen oh six, Grace became pregnant, and she
told Chester obviously, and she began pressuring him to marry her.
And she would write him pleading letters, saying like, you know,
can you just do the right thing. I'm pregnant, you
(08:03):
said we're going to get married, all this stuff. Grace
went to stay with her parents for a visit, and
when she returned to Courtland, where the factory was, she
found out that Chester had been sort of trying to
see other girls. He've been courting them, as they put
it in those days.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So as spring turned into summer, they too began arguing
massively because obviously she's knocked up and she needs to
get married. In those days, yeah, so they would argue
in the factory, they would argue at each other's houses.
She would be crying all the time, and people started
noticing this. They were like, what the hell is going
on between these two? This is really weird. You know,
(08:38):
like when you have two people at work who are
feeling around and they get like suddenly fall out and
you're like, oh, no, okay, something's weird on there. I've
seen that. So Chester kept making vague statements about the
future and that they would be taking a trip soon.
So he was kind of leading her on and making
her think that there was something there, right, And he
did actually make arrangements for the cup to take a
(09:00):
trip to the Adrian Dack Mountains. Did you say that
Adrian Dack? Yeah, I did, Adrian Dack Mountains in upstate
New York. They started off one night in Utica, then
they went for another night after that at Tupper Lake,
which is I guess like a resort area, Okay, York,
And then they went south again kind of in a
little circly thing to Big Moose Lake, where Chester registered
(09:22):
under a false name at the motel.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Red flag.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, massive red flag. Although maybe if you're a couple
who are unwed, maybe they would still do that. So
while Grace was likely expecting an elopement this trip, like
because she would have thought that's what was naturally happening.
Uh huh, Chester had totally other plans for her.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
On the eleventh of July in nineteen oh six, Chester
took Grace out onto the lake in a rowboat. While
on the lake in a rowboat, he clubbed her with
his tennis racket and left her to drown.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I wonder what his excuse was for bringing the tennis
racket on the ball.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Not only did you have his fucking tennis racket, he
had a suitcase.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
What this is very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's just a picnic and I, you know, the tennis
racket so we can paddle. I don't know, like I
would have had questions. Yeah. Initially, officials believe both of
them had drowned, as an overturned boat and Chester's hat
were found in the lake. Oh, but Chester was while
they were finding that boat, hiking through the woods with
his suitcase, and he checked into the Arrowhead Hotel under
(10:30):
his own name, completely calm and collected. Nobody thought anything different.
It was dry, he was calm. He was like, hey,
I'm Chester and he just checked in totally cool.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Oh he's maybe thinking because of the fake name that yeah,
they looked to him.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So Grace's body was found at the bottom of the
lake the next day, and the autopsy showed major head trauma.
Obviously turned the drowning investigation into a murder investigation, because
how were you going to get major head trauma on
the lake. Chester was quickly located and arrested for her murder, like, obviously,
who else is it going to be? People could tell
(11:08):
from his description, and it's not that big an area
that people would know. So the trial drew nationwide attention
at the time, and Chester's uncle completely refused to pay
for any of his defense. Oh so he was like, family,
I don't care. Blood is not thicker than water. You're
on your own, buddy.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Chester didn't help himself at all because he kept changing
his story. Firsty claimed not to have been there at all.
He was like, no, it wasn't me. And then he
said it was an accidental drowning okay, and then he
said that she commits suicide. Oh okay, you know, because
you always bludging yourself over the head before drowning yourself
in a lake.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, I mean it's a very difficult way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah. He also had a hard time explaining why he
took a suitcase on a boat ride and why he
was dry if the boat had overturned when he checked
into the hotel. I mean, Chester was an idiot. I'm sorry.
Chester really was fucking idiot. Man. So most damming of
all were Grace's letters, which were found in Chester's room
and they were read aloud to the court during the trial.
In the final letter, Grace was pleading with Chester to
(12:11):
accept responsibility for the baby and how much she was
going to miss her family and everything, because she was
looking forward to the trip together, but she knew she
would never see her family ever again.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Oh why was she thinking that?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
He kept hinting about the future. And obviously we don't
know because she didn't put down on paper, But I'm
guessing that he said that they were going to Elope.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I see, so maybe he said that in preparation, Like
so he was maybe saying, like, we're going to have
to move away immediately after we get married, you won't
see your family again in a way to like try
and get away with her murder.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah yeah, okay, got yeah, god yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Because she would say like this is gonna break my
mama's heart and all this stuff. But okay, you know,
this is the sort of stuff. But she was like
pleading with him to see the light kind of thing
and to do the right thing and to do that stuff.
So copies of the letters, this is this is typical
twenties shit. Copies of the letters were printed and bound
then handed out to buyers outside the courtroom during the trial.
(13:06):
So they handed out the fucking evidence for people to read.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, gotta love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The trial lasted three weeks and Chester was obviously found
guilty and sentenced to death. His appeals were all rejected,
and he was executed on the thirtieth or March nineteen
o eight by electric chair. And I got all that
from Wikipedia.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, I just I just want to know what's the
word I'm looking for, Maybe confirm. I'm not entirely sure,
but you keep on saying the nineteen twenties. But you
said that he got executed in nineteen o eight.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Didn't I hold on, there's math involved in this, okay,
So if she was no, nineteen o eight is definitely right.
I just didn't do my math, so I was thinking
eighteen eighty six, she must be in her twenties. But
I also can't do math, So eighteen eighty six.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Is very close to nineteen six.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
She would be she was twenty, she was twenty, Okay,
it was not the nineteen twenty.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
There we go, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, So yeah, math is hard. So it was the
nineteen ten hush, almost.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Well done, thank you, all right, we're back, and I'm
gonna jump into my murder, which is the murder of
Simon Ng. And I got most of this from a
New York Post article and an article on the Daily
(14:33):
Dot by Patrick Howell. Oh Patrick Howell O'Neill my bad. So.
Simon was born in Hong Kong in nineteen eighty six.
He had an older sister, Sharon, and then his parents
moved to the United States in nineteen ninety seven. However,
(14:54):
when Simon was in his late teens, his parents moved
back to Hong Kong, leaving shar and Simon to fit
in for themselves in Queens. Simon continued as schooling, but
overall was a lonely teenager struggling to maintain friendships whilst
also making sure he and his sister could continue to
survive on their own.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Sharon worked long hours.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
And the pair only saw each other for a brief
time after about ten o'clock at night. Money was tight
and Simon's ability to take care of himself was limited.
He wasn't eating enough, both because he couldn't afford to
eat much and he didn't know how to cook many meals.
So he was having a bit of a tough time
and he turned these frustrations to the Internet and he
(15:37):
started a blog on Zanga.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
What's sad?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I remember using it when I was younger, but none
of my posts were very good. I only posted about
three or four so it was like kind of in
the age of my Space, and it was just it
was just like an online diary, you know, you would
just like post about your day.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So it's like Facebook kind of, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
I mean kind of, but like you weren't friends with
your friends. It would just be random people that would
follow you, so like blogger exactly. Okay, okay, but he
didn't have really anybody that followed him. He just really
used it as like an online diary.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
With the hope of people that people would follow him.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Most of these posts were what you would expect from
a teenager, though the struggling to defend for yourself wasn't typical.
Of course, Yeah, Simon would blog about his homework, his
college classes and exams. He talked about the books he
was reading and the Japanese lessons he was taking. He
also spoke about his wishes to make his parents proud
by doing well in school. So on Thursday, it's not
(16:43):
the murderer because I felt really satrisfied. On Thursday, the
twelfth of May two thousand and five, Simon wrote a
blog post that he had taken a few days off
from classes as he was run down, most likely because
he hadn't been eating enough. He typed that at three
pm someone was ringing the door and he went to
(17:05):
answer the door and saw that it was his sister's
ex boyfriend Jin Lynn. He asked Simon for his fishing
poles back. Simon told him to stay at the door
so that he could go up and get them.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
However, jin Lynn followed him upstairs.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Simon posted that jin Lin was smoking in the house,
and walking around with his shoes on. He complained in
the blog post that he had just washed the floors
and stated that he hoped the ex boyfriend would leave soon.
So this post was made just after five and I
actually went on to Simon Zanga. It was really eerie
(17:40):
almost because you could just picture this like teenage boy
writing out these posts and you can really see who
he was.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Like in his posts.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Okay, but yeah, it was kind of eerie, and I
saw this post in particular. So just after that post
was made, jin Lynn stabbed Simon.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
With a butcher knife.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
The winds were well the wounds were made in the
chest and neck area. Jinlyn then tied the still alive
Simon up using duct tape and try to find anything
that he could steal in the house. However, because the
siblings were not well off, there was nothing for Ginlyn
to steal.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
He waited for Sharon to return home, which she did
about half.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Nine at night, So Simon was tied up and probably
bleeding for like four hours.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, I don't know how he survived that anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Jinlyn then also attacked and stabbed Sharon multiple times, and
then stabbed Simon again. Between the two of them. They
were over fifty stab wounds. Simon died in the apartment
and Sharon died an hour later in the hospital. Place
investigated and they found Simon's blog, which told police who
(18:57):
had been in the apartment just before his death. Lynn
would not have known about Simon sending this blog post out,
so he also wouldn't have known to cover up.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Police also believed that the apartment.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Had been ransacked in order to make it a peer
like a robbery gone long gone wrong.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
It was long too to be there.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It was long.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
It was a very long time, but it was also wrong,
and so that jin Lin would not have been suspected.
When police found Ginlyn, he initially tried to pin the
crime on two other people, and I think that might
have been Sharon's new boyfriend and his friend, but I'm
not entirely sure if that's who he tried to pin on.
Police continued their questioning and showed him evidence of the
(19:36):
blog post, and he confessed, stating that he was looking
for money to get a plane ticket home. But why
target your ex girlfriend specifically if all you're looking for
is money, especially because you would have known that she's
not rich, her brother's not rich. They barely had any
money to feed themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So do you think it was jelousy then.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Well, in actual fact, he's already I bought a plane
ticket with his own money, So yeah, he was lying,
And yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I think he was jealous of the new relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So as Sharon had laid dying in the apartment, her
new boyfriend called her numerous times, and that was how
they were found, was she was able to answer one
of the phone calls and like basically tell them what
happened and ask for help, and he was the one.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
That found them.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Wow, Okay, So.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, I think jealousy was the main reason as to
why he attacked them both. Jinlyn pled guilty and was
sentenced to life in prison without parole in two thousand
and eight. In twenty sixteen, he tried to appeal on
the grounds that he was pressured psychologically by police to confess.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
He also stated that his ability to understand.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Any rights he was waving when he confessed was reduced
because he had limited English. However, he spoke mostly with
a Detective Wong, who Jinlyn had known from previous arrests,
and Detective Long Hadjoo's gin lint as a filler for
lineups in the past, so they had a good relationship.
There's a large chance that they communicated a lot in Chinese.
(21:12):
So you know that that appeal was strown out.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, because you're asked if you understand your rights and
if you say yes.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and he remains in prison to this day.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good. What a piece of trash.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I know.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I'm so glad that Simon didn't turn out to be
the killer for you, because I think that would have broken.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
It would have been yeah today, it would have broken
made a good day. It would have made me really sad.
But at the same time, I'm really sad he died.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So it was sad because they were just trying to
like do their best to get somewhere in the world,
and you know, they weren't bothering anybody, and then just
this arsul of a guy who thinks he has the
right to kill people just because he didn't get what
he wanted exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
People are assholes, man. That was a good one.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Thank you. Are we keeping you from something? Holly?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
No, I got a notification.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Like when will this end? When is he going to
sit down?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And I get the signal.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
To Talk's just take a message yeah, so what are
you choosing this weekend? Let's discuss because Holly refused to
let us discuss us all fair.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh Craig always does that, and then he ruins the
surprise for me because we talked about it before we're recording,
and I'm like, oh, but I can talk about it again.
I know. I like to be surprised by myself.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
He's like, he looks so hot right now.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So was sad? Craiged up? Be sad? It's okay, should
as seen as we faced. Hug a bunny. Okay, I
am picking fuck, I'm gonna pick mine.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, there's I think with your case. You know, do
you think it was a head trauma that killed.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Or do you think it was drowning? They said it
was head trauma, okay, but it was a tennis racket.
I mean, how much dam much can you do with
a tennis racket? I don't think they're that hard.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Do you think it was just it was a handle?
And then it was nineteen hundreds. I mean that would
have been made with some pretty solid wood.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
It would have been wood. Yeah, So I'm hoping, merely
hoping that she was unconscious when she went into the water.
But either way, I'm still picking it because it was
a hell of a lot quicker than your poor stabbing
victim Simon.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
That's it, isn't that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
How pregnant was she?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Not very I think she was maybe three four months? Okay, yeah,
still she wasn't showing, so she found out in the
early spring and it was like just moving into summer.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So she was, oh, not very pregnant at all? Okay,
a few months then, yeah. I mean what Simon went
through was awful.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Horrible, slowly bleeding to death, well tied up. Yeah, seeing
your sister get attacked probably uh huh.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I mean that's horrible, and then being in this house
for hours as well with the person that's like essentially
killed you, but you're not dead yet.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I wonder if he knew, Like, I wonder if they talked.
It's so strange, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know, I wonder what happened over those hours?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah? Did they just I mean it wasn't a big place,
was it.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No, It's just it was an apartment in Queens, so
it wouldn't have been big.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It would have been tiny. So made this guy just
sit and wait or did he like move around where
they talk. It's so strange.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It seems like he was pretty agitated, like before he
stabbed Simon from the description, like he was smoking, he
was pacing like he seemed pretty wired. So I wonder
if he sort of kept that energy up and just
was like pacing around like maybe that would have been agitated.
I know he got there at three and she got
(24:51):
back at what half nine?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Six hours? Yeah, really strange.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Like what was that noise?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It's not mine, isn't It sounded like a USB going in.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I have no idea. I haven't usped anything, so you
see me. I'm literally sitting here. I have not done anything. Craig.
This is why we need a recording person.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Well, we can do that soon, do that, Sin, But
before we go into that, I'm going to pick yours
as well.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Oh I didn't think you would because of the drowning
potential drowning.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, I think if she was drowning, if she died
that way, I would have been less inclined to pick
it because I hate that.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I just hate it.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
But I think from the sounds of it, she was
unconscious before she went into the water, so and then
bleeding to death over hours.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Not good.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Just waiting to die. That just sounds awful. It just
sounds so bad. So yeah, I'm picking yours as well.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
There we go. We're going to agree? Hm we are?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yes, So, as Holly mentioned a few minutes ago, we
probably will be recording in the same house.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I know.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I'm so excited as well by Percy pigs Craig. Yeah,
he agrees and agrees to go away to answer.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
But because he's still.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Smarting from me, like telling him to stop letting me
talk about things before I had, He's like, just let
me produce you no, stop it, stop doing your job. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
No, he'll be prepared. You know what he's like. He
loves to feed people. Yes, yes, so that will be that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Where are we going after this? We're going into asking
people to leave his lovely reviews.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, reviews on iTunes or Podchaser or spreaker. That's pretty
much actually, or just a face to face review with
someone that you know and love who you think will
love us back.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah. I love it when people pass us along. I
think that's so cool. Actually, Natalie one of their listeners,
my friend from Canada. She recommend us to somebody on Twitter.
I think yesterday it was awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Thanks Narlie, nice, Thanks Natalie.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
So yeah, you can chat to us on Twitter at
which murderer and same for Instagram and also on our
Facebook group or our Facebook page at which mrd are
I think which? Yeah, and then you know the usual,
all the stuff that Craig's about to say. I don't
want to steal all his thunder. I'll just steal half
his thunder. But yeah, we've had quite a few people
(27:28):
joining the page and the group this week, which has
been really cool to see. You wouldn't know Facebook.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I just can't do it anymore, guys. I'm sorry. Holly's
got you covered.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean mostly, And I sent Gemma sees it
because I send it to her, but yeah, she's just
like boycotted the whole thing for some reason. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yes, I have, so I don't even know what the
reason is. But it just irritates you pretty much. Like
I was really addicted to it, and I found I
was on my phone all the time with it. But
I seem to have just transferred that addiction to Facebook
to an addiction to read it. And I'm just constantly
(28:12):
on readit now, so much read it there is. It's
a never ending wormhole of an curiiness. So yeah, yeah,
there's just so much to read, so much to learn.
So yeah, I've just upstituted one addiction for the other.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Ye have two, so you're being healthy.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, So thank you all for listening. Thank you, and
we will see y'all next week.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Bye.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. And find us wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Moderer at
gmail dot com or visit our website at which Murderer
dot com. We are also on Instagram, read it at
Twitter just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(28:58):
You can join the debate on our facebo page and
group interacting with other listeners, or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend,
where artwork was produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot
com
Go if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello, Holly, Hi Gemma. How's it going tonight.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Hey? You know I'm pretending to be happy right now.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well you're doing a very good job of it.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hey, it's been a week and my holidays been canceled.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Oh yeah, we literally just got word from that. Well
I didn't because it wasn't my holiday, but you literally
just got word of that.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I live read you my email. Yes, yeah, So I'm
a little sad about that because it was at the
end of September and I kind of thought maybe they
could sort of shoot out by then. But I think
what's going on is they're having to rejig their planes
because of the seating arrangements and stuff, So probably half
the people are going and half the people aren't. I
(01:04):
don't know what's going on. I'm just sad because I
really want to go, I know, but maybe it's for
the best.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
You can use that time instead to go somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
I could, or I could just take the money and
wait for it all to hopefully get better. Yeah, and
maybe go on a better holiday. We will see.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, you deserve it.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
We are which murder we.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Are, and we don't even have any shout outs for
you tonight.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So no, I guess I'll shout out to my mom
because she's going through like a really tough day today.
It's a really really hard day for her today. So yeah,
I'm not gonna say on the air because I don't
know if she wants me to, but yeah, she's just
going through a really bad day today. Okay, shout out
to my mom and thanks.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah. So the topic this week as.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
People that were able to solve their own marchin Yeah,
which sounds so strange, but there's so many cases out there.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
There are quite a few. It's very ghost whisper, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It is? It is.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, me and Craig were talking about this before we
came on air, and Craig has had this one and
joke for years that he has on his phone or
on his computer or somewhere a note that says Jemma
does it. So yeah, he even tried to save it
to Alexa the other night so that in the event
(02:35):
of his untimely death, then I would be implicated.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Nice, Yeah, but you would be anyway. You've been every
one suspect, I know.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But he's trying to solve his own death before it happens.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Oh right, Craig, you won't see it coming. Trust me,
you will not see it coming.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I've done my research, Bud exactly anyway.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
Yeah, so that's that was Craig's attempt to try and
solve his own nice.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Very nice. I haven't really thought about how I'm going
to solve my own murder.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yeah, fingers crushed. You won't ever have to.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Oh I probably will at some point. You know how
I am. You know how unsafe I live my life.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
So I will avenge you. I will assess you in
solving your murder.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Thank you welcome.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Unless you do.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
It, m then I will not help you.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Craig add a note for me too. Okay, so I'm
going first according to our number system.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yes, oh yeah, we should tell people about our number
system that we only just found out after three seasons.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Or did we tell everyone already?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I don't know if we did. I can't remember that.
Time has no meeting in my brain.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Craig says, we haven't.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Well, yeah, I believe him. Yeah, maybe so I am
odd numbers yea even Yeah, but what happens in a
two parter.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Then it's still the same, Yeah, because we still name
it the same number.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Of it same, remember, don't we Yeah, on.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
All the odd episodes, Holly goes first and all the evens,
I go first. And I can't believe it's taken as
two three seasons. Yeah, three seasons to figure this out.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Listen, it was the involved numbers. So luckily we figured
it out at all.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Absolutely, Okay, So.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Tonight I am talking about Grace May Brown. Now, she
was born in New York City in eighteen eighty six,
and she was the middle child. I don't think it
was a city. She was just born in New.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
York State, Okay, g Yeah, because the next.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Sentence makes me think that she was the middle child
of a successful dairy farmer and his wife. I got ya,
So probably not in New York City. No, Grace had
the nickname Billy because her favorite song was Won't You
Come Home? Billy Bailey. Now, I was like, what kind
of music was happening in the eighteen hundreds. Yeah, so
(04:55):
I googled it and listened to it, and it's very
did you ever watch The Color Purple a long time ago? Yeah,
it's very much that kind of music. Like it's really catchy, jazzy,
sort of country jazz. I don't know how to call.
I don't know, okay, I don't know what it's actually called,
but it sounds like country jazz to me. So eventually,
(05:16):
like she completely embraced this nickname, and she would sign
all her letters from the kid after Billy the kids.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh, so she had a nickname within a nickname.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, it's cool. It's coody. I like it. In nineteen
oh four, when she was eighteen, Grace moved to Courtland,
which is still in New York State, to live with
her married sister Ada and to work at the new
Gillette script factory. I think that was quite common, was
when like older sisters would go off and get married.
Sometimes I would take any younger sisters to help out
(05:46):
because obviously lots of kids were being popped out in
those days.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah that's true.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, so at around the same time, Chester Ellsworth Gillette
was born in eighteen eighty three in Montana, but he
ended up spending part of his childhood in Washington State.
His parents were financially comfortable but deeply religious, and eventually
gave up what wealth they did have and joined the
(06:12):
Salvation Army okay, which I didn't realize was like a
culty sort of a church thing until I read this,
because I always thought it was just a shop.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, so many people think it as just like a
charity shop. But no, there's so much to it. There's
so much to it.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And I know that they go out and they like
ring bells at Christmas and get money for poor people
and stuff like that. But I didn't realize it was
a whole religion. I did not get that. During Chester's
teenage years, the family traveled around the US along the
West coast and Hawaii sort of area. This was sort
of preaching, okay, though Chester never became religious like his parents.
(06:48):
He was like, I'm not having it. I'm not taking up.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
So he was just all long for the raid.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Then. Yeah, he didn't really have a choice. He was
just like one of those kids who just gets strigged
down that sort of road but are like, oh my god,
you guys have to do this. He didn't care about
it at all. Okay. After school, Chester worked several odd
jobs before joining his uncle's skirt factory in nineteen oh five.
The Paths Meet, Yes. Chester met Grace at the factory
(07:14):
and soon began a sexual relationship, which would have been
what in the nineteen twenties, so quite scandalous. Grace believed
that Chester would marry her, but they were from completely
different social backgrounds, and she was considered just a factory girl.
Oh and had he never had any intention of marrying her,
(07:34):
would have never married her. It probably wouldn't have been
accepted by his family if he had, so.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
He would have been obviously management then, and she would
have been like one of the.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Workers, yeah, because I mean, his uncle owned the factory,
so he wouldn't have been he wouldn't have been like
grunting it or anything like that. Yeah. So in the
spring of nineteen oh six, Grace became pregnant, and she
told Chester obviously, and she began pressuring him to marry her.
And she would write him pleading letters, saying like, you know,
can you just do the right thing. I'm pregnant, you
(08:03):
said we're going to get married, all this stuff. Grace
went to stay with her parents for a visit, and
when she returned to Courtland, where the factory was, she
found out that Chester had been sort of trying to
see other girls. He've been courting them, as they put
it in those days.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
So as spring turned into summer, they too began arguing
massively because obviously she's knocked up and she needs to
get married. In those days, yeah, so they would argue
in the factory, they would argue at each other's houses.
She would be crying all the time, and people started
noticing this. They were like, what the hell is going
on between these two? This is really weird. You know,
(08:38):
like when you have two people at work who are
feeling around and they get like suddenly fall out and
you're like, oh, no, okay, something's weird on there. I've
seen that. So Chester kept making vague statements about the
future and that they would be taking a trip soon.
So he was kind of leading her on and making
her think that there was something there, right, And he
did actually make arrangements for the cup to take a
(09:00):
trip to the Adrian Dack Mountains. Did you say that
Adrian Dack? Yeah, I did, Adrian Dack Mountains in upstate
New York. They started off one night in Utica, then
they went for another night after that at Tupper Lake,
which is I guess like a resort area, Okay, York,
And then they went south again kind of in a
little circly thing to Big Moose Lake, where Chester registered
(09:22):
under a false name at the motel.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Red flag.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Yeah, massive red flag. Although maybe if you're a couple
who are unwed, maybe they would still do that. So
while Grace was likely expecting an elopement this trip, like
because she would have thought that's what was naturally happening.
Uh huh, Chester had totally other plans for her.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
On the eleventh of July in nineteen oh six, Chester
took Grace out onto the lake in a rowboat. While
on the lake in a rowboat, he clubbed her with
his tennis racket and left her to drown.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I wonder what his excuse was for bringing the tennis
racket on the ball.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Not only did you have his fucking tennis racket, he
had a suitcase.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
What this is very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It's just a picnic and I, you know, the tennis
racket so we can paddle. I don't know, like I
would have had questions. Yeah. Initially, officials believe both of
them had drowned, as an overturned boat and Chester's hat
were found in the lake. Oh, but Chester was while
they were finding that boat, hiking through the woods with
his suitcase, and he checked into the Arrowhead Hotel under
(10:30):
his own name, completely calm and collected. Nobody thought anything different.
It was dry, he was calm. He was like, hey,
I'm Chester and he just checked in totally cool.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Oh he's maybe thinking because of the fake name that yeah,
they looked to him.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So Grace's body was found at the bottom of the
lake the next day, and the autopsy showed major head trauma.
Obviously turned the drowning investigation into a murder investigation, because
how were you going to get major head trauma on
the lake. Chester was quickly located and arrested for her murder, like, obviously,
who else is it going to be? People could tell
(11:08):
from his description, and it's not that big an area
that people would know. So the trial drew nationwide attention
at the time, and Chester's uncle completely refused to pay
for any of his defense. Oh so he was like, family,
I don't care. Blood is not thicker than water. You're
on your own, buddy.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Chester didn't help himself at all because he kept changing
his story. Firsty claimed not to have been there at all.
He was like, no, it wasn't me. And then he
said it was an accidental drowning okay, and then he
said that she commits suicide. Oh okay, you know, because
you always bludging yourself over the head before drowning yourself
in a lake.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, I mean it's a very difficult way of doing it.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah. He also had a hard time explaining why he
took a suitcase on a boat ride and why he
was dry if the boat had overturned when he checked
into the hotel. I mean, Chester was an idiot. I'm sorry.
Chester really was fucking idiot. Man. So most damming of
all were Grace's letters, which were found in Chester's room
and they were read aloud to the court during the trial.
In the final letter, Grace was pleading with Chester to
(12:11):
accept responsibility for the baby and how much she was
going to miss her family and everything, because she was
looking forward to the trip together, but she knew she
would never see her family ever again.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Oh why was she thinking that?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
He kept hinting about the future. And obviously we don't
know because she didn't put down on paper, But I'm
guessing that he said that they were going to Elope.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
I see, so maybe he said that in preparation, Like
so he was maybe saying, like, we're going to have
to move away immediately after we get married, you won't
see your family again in a way to like try
and get away with her murder.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah yeah, okay, got yeah, god yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Because she would say like this is gonna break my
mama's heart and all this stuff. But okay, you know,
this is the sort of stuff. But she was like
pleading with him to see the light kind of thing
and to do the right thing and to do that stuff.
So copies of the letters, this is this is typical
twenties shit. Copies of the letters were printed and bound
then handed out to buyers outside the courtroom during the trial.
(13:06):
So they handed out the fucking evidence for people to read.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, gotta love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The trial lasted three weeks and Chester was obviously found
guilty and sentenced to death. His appeals were all rejected,
and he was executed on the thirtieth or March nineteen
o eight by electric chair. And I got all that
from Wikipedia.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Yeah, I just I just want to know what's the
word I'm looking for, Maybe confirm. I'm not entirely sure,
but you keep on saying the nineteen twenties. But you
said that he got executed in nineteen o eight.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Didn't I hold on, there's math involved in this, okay,
So if she was no, nineteen o eight is definitely right.
I just didn't do my math, so I was thinking
eighteen eighty six, she must be in her twenties. But
I also can't do math, So eighteen eighty six.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Is very close to nineteen six.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
She would be she was twenty, she was twenty, Okay,
it was not the nineteen twenty.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
There we go, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, So yeah, math is hard. So it was the
nineteen ten hush, almost.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Well done, thank you, all right, we're back, and I'm
gonna jump into my murder, which is the murder of
Simon Ng. And I got most of this from a
New York Post article and an article on the Daily
(14:33):
Dot by Patrick Howell. Oh Patrick Howell O'Neill my bad. So.
Simon was born in Hong Kong in nineteen eighty six.
He had an older sister, Sharon, and then his parents
moved to the United States in nineteen ninety seven. However,
(14:54):
when Simon was in his late teens, his parents moved
back to Hong Kong, leaving shar and Simon to fit
in for themselves in Queens. Simon continued as schooling, but
overall was a lonely teenager struggling to maintain friendships whilst
also making sure he and his sister could continue to
survive on their own.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Sharon worked long hours.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
And the pair only saw each other for a brief
time after about ten o'clock at night. Money was tight
and Simon's ability to take care of himself was limited.
He wasn't eating enough, both because he couldn't afford to
eat much and he didn't know how to cook many meals.
So he was having a bit of a tough time
and he turned these frustrations to the Internet and he
(15:37):
started a blog on Zanga.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
What's sad?
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I remember using it when I was younger, but none
of my posts were very good. I only posted about
three or four so it was like kind of in
the age of my Space, and it was just it
was just like an online diary, you know, you would
just like post about your day.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So it's like Facebook kind of, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
I mean kind of, but like you weren't friends with
your friends. It would just be random people that would
follow you, so like blogger exactly. Okay, okay, but he
didn't have really anybody that followed him. He just really
used it as like an online diary.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
With the hope of people that people would follow him.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Most of these posts were what you would expect from
a teenager, though the struggling to defend for yourself wasn't typical.
Of course, Yeah, Simon would blog about his homework, his
college classes and exams. He talked about the books he
was reading and the Japanese lessons he was taking. He
also spoke about his wishes to make his parents proud
by doing well in school. So on Thursday, it's not
(16:43):
the murderer because I felt really satrisfied. On Thursday, the
twelfth of May two thousand and five, Simon wrote a
blog post that he had taken a few days off
from classes as he was run down, most likely because
he hadn't been eating enough. He typed that at three
pm someone was ringing the door and he went to
(17:05):
answer the door and saw that it was his sister's
ex boyfriend Jin Lynn. He asked Simon for his fishing
poles back. Simon told him to stay at the door
so that he could go up and get them.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
However, jin Lynn followed him upstairs.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Simon posted that jin Lin was smoking in the house,
and walking around with his shoes on. He complained in
the blog post that he had just washed the floors
and stated that he hoped the ex boyfriend would leave soon.
So this post was made just after five and I
actually went on to Simon Zanga. It was really eerie
(17:40):
almost because you could just picture this like teenage boy
writing out these posts and you can really see who
he was.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Like in his posts.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Okay, but yeah, it was kind of eerie, and I
saw this post in particular. So just after that post
was made, jin Lynn stabbed Simon.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
With a butcher knife.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
The winds were well the wounds were made in the
chest and neck area. Jinlyn then tied the still alive
Simon up using duct tape and try to find anything
that he could steal in the house. However, because the
siblings were not well off, there was nothing for Ginlyn
to steal.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
He waited for Sharon to return home, which she did
about half.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Nine at night, So Simon was tied up and probably
bleeding for like four hours.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, I don't know how he survived that anyway.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Jinlyn then also attacked and stabbed Sharon multiple times, and
then stabbed Simon again. Between the two of them. They
were over fifty stab wounds. Simon died in the apartment
and Sharon died an hour later in the hospital. Place
investigated and they found Simon's blog, which told police who
(18:57):
had been in the apartment just before his death. Lynn
would not have known about Simon sending this blog post out,
so he also wouldn't have known to cover up.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Police also believed that the apartment.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Had been ransacked in order to make it a peer
like a robbery gone long gone wrong.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
It was long too to be there.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
It was long.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
It was a very long time, but it was also wrong,
and so that jin Lin would not have been suspected.
When police found Ginlyn, he initially tried to pin the
crime on two other people, and I think that might
have been Sharon's new boyfriend and his friend, but I'm
not entirely sure if that's who he tried to pin on.
Police continued their questioning and showed him evidence of the
(19:36):
blog post, and he confessed, stating that he was looking
for money to get a plane ticket home. But why
target your ex girlfriend specifically if all you're looking for
is money, especially because you would have known that she's
not rich, her brother's not rich. They barely had any
money to feed themselves.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
So do you think it was jelousy then.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Well, in actual fact, he's already I bought a plane
ticket with his own money, So yeah, he was lying,
And yeah, I do.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I think he was jealous of the new relationship.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So as Sharon had laid dying in the apartment, her
new boyfriend called her numerous times, and that was how
they were found, was she was able to answer one
of the phone calls and like basically tell them what
happened and ask for help, and he was the one.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
That found them.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Wow, Okay, So.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, I think jealousy was the main reason as to
why he attacked them both. Jinlyn pled guilty and was
sentenced to life in prison without parole in two thousand
and eight. In twenty sixteen, he tried to appeal on
the grounds that he was pressured psychologically by police to confess.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
He also stated that his ability to understand.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Any rights he was waving when he confessed was reduced
because he had limited English. However, he spoke mostly with
a Detective Wong, who Jinlyn had known from previous arrests,
and Detective Long Hadjoo's gin lint as a filler for
lineups in the past, so they had a good relationship.
There's a large chance that they communicated a lot in Chinese.
(21:12):
So you know that that appeal was strown out.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Yeah, because you're asked if you understand your rights and
if you say yes.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, and he remains in prison to this day.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Good. What a piece of trash.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I know.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
I'm so glad that Simon didn't turn out to be
the killer for you, because I think that would have broken.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
It would have been yeah today, it would have broken
made a good day. It would have made me really sad.
But at the same time, I'm really sad he died.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So it was sad because they were just trying to
like do their best to get somewhere in the world,
and you know, they weren't bothering anybody, and then just
this arsul of a guy who thinks he has the
right to kill people just because he didn't get what
he wanted exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
People are assholes, man. That was a good one.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Thank you. Are we keeping you from something? Holly?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
No, I got a notification.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Like when will this end? When is he going to
sit down?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
And I get the signal.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
To Talk's just take a message yeah, so what are
you choosing this weekend? Let's discuss because Holly refused to
let us discuss us all fair.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Oh Craig always does that, and then he ruins the
surprise for me because we talked about it before we're recording,
and I'm like, oh, but I can talk about it again.
I know. I like to be surprised by myself.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
He's like, he looks so hot right now.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So was sad? Craiged up? Be sad? It's okay, should
as seen as we faced. Hug a bunny. Okay, I
am picking fuck, I'm gonna pick mine.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah, there's I think with your case. You know, do
you think it was a head trauma that killed.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Or do you think it was drowning? They said it
was head trauma, okay, but it was a tennis racket.
I mean, how much dam much can you do with
a tennis racket? I don't think they're that hard.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Do you think it was just it was a handle?
And then it was nineteen hundreds. I mean that would
have been made with some pretty solid wood.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
It would have been wood. Yeah, So I'm hoping, merely
hoping that she was unconscious when she went into the water.
But either way, I'm still picking it because it was
a hell of a lot quicker than your poor stabbing
victim Simon.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
That's it, isn't that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
How pregnant was she?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Not very I think she was maybe three four months? Okay, yeah,
still she wasn't showing, so she found out in the
early spring and it was like just moving into summer.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
So she was, oh, not very pregnant at all? Okay,
a few months then, yeah. I mean what Simon went
through was awful.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Horrible, slowly bleeding to death, well tied up. Yeah, seeing
your sister get attacked probably uh huh.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
I mean that's horrible, and then being in this house
for hours as well with the person that's like essentially
killed you, but you're not dead yet.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I wonder if he knew, Like, I wonder if they talked.
It's so strange, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know, I wonder what happened over those hours?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Yeah? Did they just I mean it wasn't a big place,
was it.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
No, It's just it was an apartment in Queens, so
it wouldn't have been big.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
It would have been tiny. So made this guy just
sit and wait or did he like move around where
they talk. It's so strange.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
It seems like he was pretty agitated, like before he
stabbed Simon from the description, like he was smoking, he
was pacing like he seemed pretty wired. So I wonder
if he sort of kept that energy up and just
was like pacing around like maybe that would have been agitated.
I know he got there at three and she got
(24:51):
back at what half nine?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Six hours? Yeah, really strange.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Like what was that noise?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It's not mine, isn't It sounded like a USB going in.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I have no idea. I haven't usped anything, so you
see me. I'm literally sitting here. I have not done anything. Craig.
This is why we need a recording person.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Well, we can do that soon, do that, Sin, But
before we go into that, I'm going to pick yours
as well.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Oh I didn't think you would because of the drowning
potential drowning.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, I think if she was drowning, if she died
that way, I would have been less inclined to pick
it because I hate that.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I just hate it.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
But I think from the sounds of it, she was
unconscious before she went into the water, so and then
bleeding to death over hours.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Not good.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Just waiting to die. That just sounds awful. It just
sounds so bad. So yeah, I'm picking yours as well.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
There we go. We're going to agree? Hm we are?
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yes, So, as Holly mentioned a few minutes ago, we
probably will be recording in the same house.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
I know.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I'm so excited as well by Percy pigs Craig. Yeah,
he agrees and agrees to go away to answer.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
But because he's still.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Smarting from me, like telling him to stop letting me
talk about things before I had, He's like, just let
me produce you no, stop it, stop doing your job. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
No, he'll be prepared. You know what he's like. He
loves to feed people. Yes, yes, so that will be that.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Where are we going after this? We're going into asking
people to leave his lovely reviews.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That is what we're going to do.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, reviews on iTunes or Podchaser or spreaker. That's pretty
much actually, or just a face to face review with
someone that you know and love who you think will
love us back.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah. I love it when people pass us along. I
think that's so cool. Actually, Natalie one of their listeners,
my friend from Canada. She recommend us to somebody on Twitter.
I think yesterday it was awesome.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Thanks Narlie, nice, Thanks Natalie.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
So yeah, you can chat to us on Twitter at
which murderer and same for Instagram and also on our
Facebook group or our Facebook page at which mrd are
I think which? Yeah, and then you know the usual,
all the stuff that Craig's about to say. I don't
want to steal all his thunder. I'll just steal half
his thunder. But yeah, we've had quite a few people
(27:28):
joining the page and the group this week, which has
been really cool to see. You wouldn't know Facebook.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I just can't do it anymore, guys. I'm sorry. Holly's
got you covered.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean mostly, And I sent Gemma sees it
because I send it to her, but yeah, she's just
like boycotted the whole thing for some reason. I don't know.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yes, I have, so I don't even know what the
reason is. But it just irritates you pretty much. Like
I was really addicted to it, and I found I
was on my phone all the time with it. But
I seem to have just transferred that addiction to Facebook
to an addiction to read it. And I'm just constantly
(28:12):
on readit now, so much read it there is. It's
a never ending wormhole of an curiiness. So yeah, yeah,
there's just so much to read, so much to learn.
So yeah, I've just upstituted one addiction for the other.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Ye have two, so you're being healthy.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Yeah, So thank you all for listening. Thank you, and
we will see y'all next week.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Bye.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Which Moderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. And find us wherever you
listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Moderer at
gmail dot com or visit our website at which Murderer
dot com. We are also on Instagram, read it at
Twitter just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(28:58):
You can join the debate on our facebo page and
group interacting with other listeners, or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is Kill Me Again by Blue Bend,
where artwork was produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot
com
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