June 14, 2024 • 32 mins
In Which Murderer’s 50th episode of Season 6, the girls cover Body Snatcher Murders. Mel starts us off with the world famous Burke and Hare Murders, before Holly goes over the closely related tale of the London Burkers.
Listener Ricky suggested this week’s topic - thanks so much!
The weather girls (sorry, women) are covering ground breaking issues like murderous highland cows, resting livers, dead body shortages and how alcohol and drugs are definitely the way forward. Gentle but firm reminder to never let your children listen to this podcast. Ever. Like probably not even when they are adults.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who has snatched Consulting Producer Craig’s alive body to edit the rest of this season’s episodes.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Mel while Consulting Producer Craig waits for Holly to realise she can’t lift him and is terrible at snatching.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Listener Ricky suggested this week’s topic - thanks so much!
The weather girls (sorry, women) are covering ground breaking issues like murderous highland cows, resting livers, dead body shortages and how alcohol and drugs are definitely the way forward. Gentle but firm reminder to never let your children listen to this podcast. Ever. Like probably not even when they are adults.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who has snatched Consulting Producer Craig’s alive body to edit the rest of this season’s episodes.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Mel while Consulting Producer Craig waits for Holly to realise she can’t lift him and is terrible at snatching.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
If you like big good afternoon.Now, good afternoon, Holly. How
are you? I am fine.It is sunny in Scotland. It was
twenty five on the way here,del sunny. How good? It's insane?
Now we do we witch murderer?Were we do? You usually get
(00:34):
quite a nice May? May usuallyworks out quite well for us. Yeah,
we do usually get quite a niceMay. The worry about that is
you want you wondered about June lastyear? I remember the second half of
me in the full of June weregorgeous last year, and then the schools
broke at the end of June andit was horrific rain. Yeah, for
(00:56):
like six weeks, so that's notgreat. However, damps like this in
me? Are you know? Good? I hope so. I hope it'll
lasts because I got a lot onin May. So I would really like
thinks that you got camping. You'vegot camping stuff, haven't you? Not?
In May? God? No,I booked that later in the year
because I learned my lesson last year. But I've got I'm away to the
lakes with a friend end of themonth. We're going to the lakes.
(01:17):
Can I do a walk and takeher dogs out there fun. What else
have I gone on? I swearI've got something else on this week next
weekend, I don't even know.Oh yeah, I'm at lock Looman next
weekend, and then I've got ohyeah, the twenty fifth of me.
Garry doesn't know, but I'm takinghim to a hands on coup tour.
(01:38):
Hands on what's that? You getto go like pet and brush highland cows?
Oh? Does he like them?He's terrified. Oh my god.
Oh no. One tried to killhim at a well, he says,
tried to kill him at a localfarm once. Wow. She was like,
Dave shitlan pony story. Yes,I tried to get shitlan poon.
He tried to kill me. Reallyyeah. But like there was a at
(02:00):
this like really nice farm where youget to like pick apples and ship there's
this highland cow in her calf andwe were like taking pictures and stuff,
and he went up to it andthe highland cow turned his head and almost
impaled him with the horn. ShSo he thinks the cow was after him.
I'm like, I'm she was.I think she was just turning her
head. But he's convinced that hewas trying to that she tried to kill
(02:20):
him. Oh no, So ishe going to see the funny side of
this? I think so. Andit's like far away. It's like a
three hour drive, so oh shure. So what are you going to tail
him? You're doing? When areyou going to tail them? I tell
him like before we go, becausedon't do surprises, okay, because he
might not win in the car anddrive for the area. He may not.
He may not, but I paidI'll just tell him like, we're
(02:43):
just going to go see some coups. Oh nice, good, Well,
he's hoping the way that keeps upfor it. I think it's to be
I think it's to be nice allweek and then it's kind of I think.
I don't know. I don't know. We'll wait and see. I
am going to try and keep mequiet because I'm a weeen holiday again in
June. You are, yes,and we're going away again in July,
I think so. Yes, I'mgoing to try and keep it low key
(03:06):
plus and a bit of a rest, yeah, because it'd been quite busy
recently. I think your liver needsrest. Yes, Yes, so we
are doing We're on episode fifty.We are and we're doing body snatcher murders,
and this was recommended by one ofmy ex colleagues, Ricky. Thank
you, Ricky. I have norecollection of him recommending it at all.
(03:28):
That I have no recollection of mostthings, no, given my age,
and that I like to drink.Yes, yes, like a small drink.
So i'm first, you are yes, So I'm doing the very famous
Burke and Hair murders are say,very famous. I'd heard of him,
but I didn't really know much aboutit. Oh really, so I did
(03:50):
quite a lot of research. ButI'll try and trim it down a bit.
If it's quite it might be well. No, continue like do yours
because mine is related to yours,so I need you to do yours also,
it's quite good. I'm first thenyes, right So. November eighteen
twenty seven, William Hare was anIrish laborer turn landlord, and he realized
(04:11):
he had a problem. His lodgerwas a man named Donald, who had
actually just died of dropsy. What'sdropsy? I think it's? Oh?
Is it? I think so?Shortly before receiving his quarterly army pension,
Donald owned owed William sorry four poundsin back rent and four pounds I'm guessings
like a daily age in twenty sevenyeah, which they say today is the
(04:31):
equivalent of nearly three hundred quid,so some odly three hundred quids for dues.
He was furious at Donald's inability tostay alive long enough to pay his
way bastards. So William got hisfellow irishman and friend, William Burke.
So we've got William here and WilliamBurke. Yeah, and it wasn't long
(04:53):
before they came up with the solution. The solution that they came up with
at the time was why do wenot sell Donald's body, because that's only
lucy you can come up with atthat time. Yeah, of course.
So we've got William Bark and Williamhere, which I call them bucking here
from now on, just to takeconfusion. There was money to be made
from dead bodies in Edinburgh and theneighteen twenties the city become a leading European
(05:13):
center for the study of medicine,which I did not know, and the
city Surgeant needed a constant supply ofcorpses to satisfy student demands for dissections.
Yep, the surgeons paid very wellten pounds in the winter when bodies could
be kept in a decent state ofpreservation for weeks and seven pounds in the
summer. Nice. The demand wasso high and the money was so good
that the city was plagued by graveroberts who were called resurrection men, and
(05:38):
these people dug up fresh corpses Edinburgh'sgraveyards to sell to surgeons. One of
the graveyards, ser just going todrop One of the graveyards just down the
road for me, near holy RoodPalace, actually has a tower built into
it so that watchmen could stand onthe tower and watch over the gravees.
No way. Yeah, I didnot know that this was a thing.
That was a huge thing. That'sa good thing about this podcast though,
(05:59):
when you do some research, she'slike, oh my god, this is
amazing. Yeah. So bodies wereworth quite a bit, and William Hare
and William Burke were felt they werequite out of pocket, William here in
particular, and he didn't want tolet the opportunity to go to waste,
so they took the body to EdinburghUniversity under the cover of darkness, hoping
to find an assistant of a veryfamous surgeon called Professor Alexander Munroau. To
(06:19):
sell it to Instead, a studentdirected them to another doctor who was well
known. He examined the body andoffered seven pounds for it, which is
almost worth six hundred pounds to day. The pair greed and they were leaving,
and the doctor said they'd be happyenough to do business with him again,
(06:40):
So they started killing people. Theywere frequently drunk when carrying out murders
of those unfortunate enough to enter theirorbit, and later struggled to remember the
order in which the victims were killedin in their police statements. What is
known for sure is that the killingsbegan in January, so that would have
been January eighteen twenty eight. Thefirst and most likely victim was a man
(07:00):
named Joseph, who was staying withWilliam Hare and his wife Margaret when he
fell ill with a fever. Margaretwas worried that there was some sort of
infection in the house, right,so William Hare and asked wilgiom Bark for
a solution. The two men quicklydecided to kill Joseph and make some profit
from his corpse. They plaied himwith miller, and they plied him with
(07:23):
sorry whiskey, and then when hewas suitably inebriated. William Burke Lane is
upper torso while William Hare suffocated himawful. This method work to treat and
would become the way that they wouldkill almost every murder at the way that
would perform every murder. Afterwards,Joseph's corpse was sold to the same doctor.
This time the price paid was tenpounds, and to their delight,
(07:46):
they felt that they'd hit on awinning idea. Nixt three victims were traveling
salesman. One fell ill with joundiceand was murdered and given to the doctor.
The other victim was allured to herdeath and plied with drink, murdered
again, and another one was asimilar fate. The bodies were all sold
(08:07):
for ten pounds each. In particulartheir last victim, the doctor was very
impressed by his freshness and didn't askanything else. So this gave them another
idea that they should probably kill andtake the bodies straight away. Yes,
it remainder of eighteen twenty eight,the bodies piled up. There was another
few corpses because of drinking nights withWilliam Here and William Burke, and actually
(08:31):
one of the latter bodies they keptfor three months before dissecting it. Oh
God, there's a lot of murdershere, which I don't know if I'm
going to go into all of them, but basically it began to be like
quite a pattern that there was murdersthat sort of carried out in the same
way. There was a particularly wellknown gentleman called Jamie Wilson in Edinburgh who
(08:52):
was mentally ill, and it waseighteen when he came across William Burk and
here they lured the young guy totheir house because he was a beggar on
the streets of Edinburgh, right,and they planned to get him drunk and
kill him in the same way thatthey had the other victims. Although Jamie
was not keen and whiskey and hewould not drink it and wasn't as drunk
(09:15):
as previous victims. When he wasattacked, he put up a fight.
He was eventually overcome and murdered,unfortunately, and they took him to doctor
Knock. So they've been taking thebodies to and doctor Knox cut off his
head and feet before dissecting his body. And again they received ten pounds for
this, like the doctor definitely knowsthere so but this is the thing.
(09:37):
Why is the doctor not question anyof this because they needed the corpses.
But I know they needed the corpses, but surely there's enough people dying anyway.
No, you couldn't, So therea law was passed in the eighteen
hundreds. I think that you couldn'tthe execution right from what I I understand,
(10:00):
the execution rate went down, Okay, people who were executed, their
bodies went to the medical schools.But when the executions reduced, there weren't
enough bodies, okay, and youcouldn't. There was no like donate your
body to science in those days.And if people were all religious, and
if you didn't prepare your body forthe afterlife, you wouldn't have an afterlife.
(10:24):
So they were buried in consecrated ground. So there was no bodies to
be given. Because everybody wanted togo to heaven, they had to be
buried in consecrated ground. Okay.So there was just no system to get
the bodies because like people who diedand weren't identified probably abused, and then
people who were executed abused. Okay, great, so they continued to kill
(10:45):
and tell. They took a coupleof lodgers called Anne and James Gidee,
who became suspicious at the activity thatwas going on. You could see that
something wasn't quite right, and theywent to see police. Police arrived and
actually found a dead body and sidedthe lords and took them into custody.
Right Apparently, by the time they'dbeen taken into custody arrested, sixteen people
(11:07):
have been murdered. They'd earned aboutone hundred and fifty pounds for bodies that
they'd sold. So apparently the tenpounds free slowly risen to one fifty and
apparently they'd made, according to today'smoney, ten grand. Holy shit,
but still that that much though,like considering what they're having to do,
(11:28):
I know. So they obviously werein police. The police were lettered to
what was going on and they wereboth questioned. They were tried before in
Edinburgh court room on Christmas Eve ofeighteen twenty eight. So this all started
what January eighteen twenty eight. Actuallysixteen people isn't actually that much when you
(11:50):
think about what they were doing.I'd expected more, Yeah, I don't.
They had other jobs though, too, didn't they? I don't know,
I don't know. It seems likea lot of report. Yes,
they were convicted in eighteen twenty eightand they were sentenced to death. William
(12:11):
Burke was hanged in the morning ofthe twenty to January eighteen twenty nine before
a crowd of twenty five thousand people. His body was dissected by the actual
doctor that they tried to get inthe first place but couldn't, the infamous
Alexander Moro. So that's so weirdesta fate. To this day, Buck's
skeleton is on display Edinburgh's Medical Schoolyep, and there's a book bound in
(12:33):
his skin which can be seen atthe Surgeon's Hall Museum. Despite never thinking
to inquire where the corpses came from, Doctor Knox, the doctor that they
use, was exonerated of blame,of course he was. This did not
stop him from being hounded out ofthe position, and he ended his days
working as a pathological anonymous anatomist ina hospital in London. The wife's of
(13:00):
working here, we're never ever heardram again, never found William here was
actually in prison sorry, and wasreleased from prison in eighteen twenty nine and
assisted by the police, he fledEdinburgh in disguise to the town of Dumfries.
He was subsequently dumped by the sideof the road outside the town and
told to make his way to England, and his feet is unknown. Oh
what happened to him? Interesting afterthat? And that all came from history
(13:22):
dot com. Very good, thankyou, so sorry, I miss I
presume they both got death scendencies,but they didn't. No, I've seen
the book with his skin. There'salso a death mask there. Oh my
god, it's weird. It's weird. I mean, obviously you don't get
to touch. It's behind glass.Yeah, Searchin's Hall Museum. I would
fully recommend. It's got like probablyhundreds of thousands, if not millions,
(13:48):
of human body parts in jars,and it's like like ears. There's an
ear section, there's an eye section, there's a cancer section, there's a
fine section, there's like a there'sbrain section. It's amazing. It's just
row upon row upon row of thesejars with all these human inner workings,
(14:09):
like every organ in the body isrepresented. And then there's the burke and
hair kind of area where they showyou the book is out with the skin.
It looks like leather. I meanyou, I wouldn't know the difference,
and know that was human skin,but it looks like leather. And
then there's like a death mask thereof his face made in wax. And
it's really interesting. It's a reallycool. Yeah, it's a really it's
(14:31):
a really cool day out. Maybenot for the kids the love nightmares,
but maybe just for the adults.Maybe for the adults. And we're back.
Indeed, it's your tongue, butI just went to sleep. Did
(14:52):
so? My story is about agroup called the London Burkers. It wouldn't
exist, Yes, the imagined BirkenHair my V six. Yes, So
the London Burkers were a group ofbody snatchers in London, England, who
modeled themselves after the Burken Hair murders. They also went by the name bethnal
(15:15):
Green Gang due to their headquarters atthe north end of bethnal Green, near
Saint Leonard's and Shoreditch in London.Okay, I think isn't bethnal Green where
Candy Man was that horror movie?Oh? I don't know, I can't
remember. Anyway, Off topic.Typically, medical cadavers needed for medical schools
were legally obtained through the execution ofcriminals, but by the nineteenth century there
(15:39):
were far fewer executions and need exceededsupply. Only fifty five people were executed
each year now and as many asfive hundred were needed, creating an opportunity
for criminal supply. Oh so theywere like massively not getting what they needed.
I don't know how you fixed thatproblem, really, to be honest,
(16:00):
So John Bishop, Thomas Williams,Michael Shields, and James May aka
Black Eyed Jack formed a gang ofresurrection men who would steal freshly buried bodies
to sell. It is believed thegang sold between five hundred and one thousand
bodies over the twelve years that theywere active. In July of eighteen thirty,
(16:22):
John Bishop rented number three Nova ScotiaGarden from a woman named Sarah True
Truby of those true words, it'snot Sarah Truby. In November the next
year, John and James attempted tosell the very very fresh body of a
fourteen year old boy to Guy's Hospital, but the hospital refused. They were
(16:45):
like, hmm, it's a bittoo fresh, thank you very much.
They then took it to King's CollegeSchool of Anatomy, where they didn't care
as much and demanded twelve guineas,but were only offered nine by the school.
Okay, probably because it was theschool believing the body had not been
(17:06):
buried. Oh god, murder bad, but stealing bodies meh. They summoned
the police. Okay, you wouldas you would. They're like, listen,
we're gonna like price you down.We'll still take the body, but
we're going to call the police onyou. The ganger arrested and held in
custody at that point. On theeighth of November eighteen thirty one, three
(17:30):
days after selling the fourteen year oldboy's body, a coroner's jury was held.
I found a verdict of wilf willfulmurder against some person or person's unknown
and expressed their belief that the gangand custody were involved. Okay. On
the nineteenth of November eighteen thirty one, police searched the cottages at Nova Scotia
Gardens and they found clothing in awell and in the toilets, suggesting multiple
(17:55):
murders. The gang went on togo to trial in December like a month
later. Because they didn't fuck aroundin the oldie times and John thirty three
and Thomas twenty six, and thenJames thirty were all found guilty of murder
and publicly sentenced to death. Policeopened up the cottages then at Nova Scotia
Gardens for the public to view,because like viewing murder scenes back in the
(18:18):
nineteenth century was a big thing.People would go travel from across the country
to go view murder scenes. Theydid it with Jack the Repper as well.
Uh huh. But the police chargedfive shillings which is about twenty five
pence in today's money to all thepeople who wanted to go view the crime
scene. Oh my god. Andthen the public who did get to see
it then proceeded to carry away piecesof the cottages the souvenirs. Basically dismantled
(18:44):
these cottages by taking away souvenirs fromthe murder scene. And that sums up
humanity. Uh huh. On Sunday, the fourth of December John same year.
So they were arrested in November andthen fourth of December John and attended
the prison chapel and they were movedor whatever, and they ended up confessing
(19:07):
to the boy's murder. Police initiallythought it was a missing Italian boy named
Carlo Ferrari, but it turned outto be a boy from Lincolnshire picked up
from the Bell Pub in Smithfield.He was offered lodging at Nova Scotia Gardens
and on arrival was drugged with rumand laudanum, which is basically opium.
(19:29):
And then while they were waiting forthis boy to fall unconscious, they went
drinking at the pub and returned whenhe was sleepy, and then they tied
his feet to a rope and drownedhim headfirst in the well. They also
admitted to murdering and selling bodies ofa homeless woman and a homeless boy in
the same way they were drowning peoplewhile they were drugged. Basically, John
(19:55):
and Thomas were hanged on the fifthof December eighteen thirty one, so a
month after being I rested I LoveIt at Newgate in front of a crowd
of thirty thousand people. Their bodieswere publicly dissected at the places they had
sold corpses to. So they thesame schools that they were selling the corpses
(20:15):
to. They dissected them publicly.Oh they let people come and watch.
Oh fun day out. Yeah.James, one of them was cleared of
murder after the confessions, but sentencedto exile for his other crimes he had
been naughty. He died the firstof December eighteen thirty four, which was
(20:37):
what three years later, and wasburied in an unmarked graved on the Isle
of the Dead, which I thinkis near Tasmania. Could be lying And
I got all that from Wikipedia.Nice, very good, thank you,
(21:00):
And we're back. We're back.So do we want to be plied with
alcohol and spiked? Yes? Please? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm going
for that. What's your thoughts?How did yours die? Fied with alcohol
and spiked? Spiked? Well,applied without whether not? Applied with alcohol
and poisoned? What? What werethey? Again? Let me kick what
(21:26):
were yours again? I'll tell youmine while you remember what yours were.
Mine were plied with alcohol and opium, so check. I like that,
and then dangled feet first down orwell and drect Oh yeah, yeah,
of course I don't like that.Yeah, but I'm thinking the opium and
alcohol mites offten that blow. Yeah. I mean you definitely wouldn't know what
was happening. You'd be completely loosinga lovely time. Yeah, spe being
(21:49):
dangled in a will, Yeah,I mean you were thrown into the well.
So I'm going you probably hit thesides on the way down and then
you drowned. Yeah, yeah,but would you have cared Probably not,
probably far too lovely a times.Yeah, right, so minds where Yeah
what were they? Yeah? Ithink they were just plied with alcohol or
(22:11):
applied with alcohol and then sort ofsmothered, smothered, so then smothered.
Yeah, I'm thinking applied with alcoholwould have obviously made made a slight difference.
Say as well, but I'm goingfor the opium now I am too.
Yeah, we've agreed. We've agreedagain, we have calling drugs alcohol
way for children is the way forward. Don't let your children listen to this
(22:33):
podcast? You do please, I'mnever letting my childs and listen to the
past few times and I'm like no, nope, absolutely, well we'll just
we'll just get it on whatever.I'm like, no, you want,
Yeah, it's not for it's notfor young people. It's about like margin
and you know, the sense ofsubjects we cover. No, I want
to listen to it. And I'mlike absolutely not, No, no,
it will never happen. It isa bad idea. Have we done this?
(22:55):
Anything else you'd like to talk about, Well, let me tell you
about the shows that I've been watching. Oh, yes, TV Time.
We're like a TV Time TV TimeSo I don't know if I already recommended
this or not, but we arewatching Oh, let me get this right,
because I got it wrong last nightand I got blasted. We are
watching Fallout, which is based onthe video game time. Yes. Yeah,
(23:18):
so it's based on the video game. So if you're not a video
game person, you might watch itand be like, this is fucking weird
but still kind of entertaining. Ifyou're a video in person, you're like,
this is amazing. Okay, I'mprobably not going to watch it,
so you can just talk about it. It's not about video games, but
it's like about apocalyptic stuff, butlike what if the world kind of ended
in the fifties kind of era.It's very strange, like it basically America.
(23:41):
It's it's not about aliens. It'sabout the human race killing zombies.
No, okay, although there aresome weird creatures and yeah, I'm fine.
Yeah. So we watched that,and then we watched The Gentleman.
We've just finished it so good.I didn't love it for a while.
(24:02):
It didn't I was myself. Oh, very James. But he's a really
strange voice he does because I've onlyseen him in The White Lotus when he
played an American guy. Yeah,and he was horrible. He was a
bastard and the White Loas White Loasis phenomenal. And then I heard him
talk and I was like, thatis not a real accents. It's like
such a deep voice. Yeah,that's the way he talks. I've seen
(24:22):
an interview. I expected more fromit in the beginning, Oh did you
normally Guy Richy stuff normally gets mequite definitely a Guy Ritchie man it is,
but I will see. It tookme a while, but I got
into it and by the end ofit I thought I really enjoyed that.
Yeah, yeah, it was it. We really enjoyed it. There were
times that Gary was like, Ican't watch this anymore. This person needs
(24:47):
to die, like they're so annoying. They're so annoying. How can they
keep sucking up so badly? Theyneed to die? But yeah, it
was really. I mean it's veryIf you're not into Guy Ritchie, it
is very Guy Richie and you it'sit's like Quentin Tarantino or I didn't like
the film. I must say thatthe guy that you filmed the gender,
Yeah, I wasn't really I didn'treally like it that much. I'm not
I'm not a big Ey Richie fan. I love lock Stock and Snatch and
(25:07):
all that. They were brilliant.But I'm also not like a huge Tarantino
fan either. Then maybe in mylike I did like kell Bell and everything.
Yeah, not so much pulp fictionas such. I I love the
kell Bill films. Kill Bill waswas all right. I'm not a massive
Tarantino fan either. No, butthis one, this one got me.
I like. But Theo James andKaya Scolarado are brilliant in it, and
(25:30):
I love Anny Jones in it aswell. Oh my god, so good,
so good. And the brother Ican't remember the name of the guy
who played the brother, really annoyingbrother. Yeah he was so annoying,
Like, yeah, he was funny. He was really good. But there's
another one coming. They're making anotherseason. Oh good good, And we
have to discuss what the world istalking about just now that was not discussed
in this podcast, which is BabyIndia. Oh my god, Baby Reindeer.
(25:56):
So so if you've not seen it, everyone you need to see because
the whole world's talking about I don'twant to give anything away. Let's not
give it away. But I thinkif you've not seen it, right,
and this is what I keep seeingpeople that I'm working with, I've not
seen it. And if you havegone to watch it after I've said this,
I'm like, it's not just abouta stalker. No, no,
Like, there's so much is reallydark in parts, and there's a proper
(26:17):
message in it, right, yeah, but there's so much more, like
because at first you watch it andyou're like, why is this guy giving
her the time of day? Likewhy is he like why would you not
report her sooner? Or whatever else? But then there's a significant event in
his life that's happened, that transpired. It tells you about it and you
understand fully wise the way is andit's it's about a lot of different things,
(26:40):
now stalking, it's about like mentalhealth issues and various other subjects.
And when you it's a hard watch. It's not an easy You didn't watch
it too quiet ly on you're oneof the last to watch it, the
last watching things and you went thathere on it either and we were like,
no, it's about more than that. I just watch it. You
kind of got it as you watchedit. Oh definitely. However, so
I didn't tease were obviously not supposedto be uncovered. It was if you've
(27:03):
not seen it, we're not goingto tell you the whole thing. There's
seven episodes. It's worth watching.However, identities after it came out,
shortly after that came out were quicklyuncovered. And the woman that it's about
didn't really do herself any fevers,didn't really cover our tracks that much.
No, neither of them did.Like if he did. They thought they
found the man, but that's notbeen revealed. It's not been confirmed or
(27:26):
anything like that. There's I mean, there's there's a pretty st yeah,
but the woman it is mentally ill. Oh definitely. And the other day
she went on to Peers Morgan's Soldierstory and told the world that you know
it's not too whatever else. Butdid you watch it? Yeah, well
no, I didn't watch who clipsit is? It's hard the things I've
(27:48):
seen. It's a hard watch becauseyou know that she's contradicting her mentally.
But at the same time, here'sMorgan. I'm not a big Piers Morgan
fan, but it was genuinely foryour ten and he did treat it with
kid gloves a bit. But sheshould not have an on tailor because she
and the fact that that Pure's Morgan. I have such at opinion of him
(28:11):
anyway. I think he is areally lacking in morals. But the fact
that he had a mentally ill personon there, knowing that she's not mentally
well in the first place, nomatter how he conducted himself, he shouldn't
have done it. He absolutely shouldn'thave done it. But he did treat
it carefully. But he tried totreat it carefully because she's not mentally well.
(28:33):
No, and she did herself nofavors. She looks even more of
a psychoew than she did before.Yeah, she definitely get it. I
think I think it does. Seeat the beginning of the documentary that some
of it is babricated for like TVdrama. She basically denied everything that they
have evidence of. Yeah, theyhave evidence of over sending like forty one
thousand emails, and she denied.At first, she was like I sent
(28:55):
one or her emails. Then itbecome became six or seven, and then
it became nine or ten. Yeah, and there was just stuff she was
seeing. You're like, you areone hundred percent did in my opinion,
it's only my opinion, do dosome of the things there. Whether it
was as bad as the show madeout, whether it was not as bad
(29:15):
as the show made out, Idon't know. I don't know. But
she definitely was more involved than whatshe said she was. Yeah, and
she's really she's saying, she saysshe's suing everybody. Now she's going to
find herself on coat and she's goingto find find herself in a lot of
trouble. I don't think. Idon't know how she can do Netflix when
Netflix of proof of what she's done. Oh, she can't suit them.
She can't Netflix. She's suing theguy that it's about, She's suon Netflix,
(29:37):
and she's suing the Daily Mail.Yeah, but she can all this
on Teley. She can see themas much as she wants, but she
won't win because it's it's He's alreadysaid it's not based on fact in the
beginning. So if you've not seenit, you can watch it Netflix,
and then you can watch an interviewon YouTube shortly after it. But it's
definitely worth seven episodes happen out eachepisode think and it's worth seeing just to
(29:57):
make your mind up about it andgo, oh god. The episode four
and five are really hard to get. Yeah, they were dark. I
said that to you. I waslike that. That's when I nearly turned
off because something it's too dark.However, his message at the end of
it, he says the reason hemade it in one of the messages he
wanted to take from it is thatmental health in this country, the girl's
(30:18):
mental health has went unsupported for along time. I don't think that was
his goal, he says it was. I know he says it was,
but I don't think it was,because why would you make it so easy
to find her by leaving the stuffshe put on your social media's Maybe it's
stalking laws as well, they onceimproved, I know, but stalking.
But I think she's been majorly laiddown. She's been let down and now
(30:44):
she's fifty eight. Yeah, butit's worth it's worth taking out. She's
not mentally well, but yeah,definitely definitely check it out. And you
know that's her TV recommendations. Yeah, I can't think of any other I
watched I've mentioned the Beer, whichis fabulous and it's back the next month.
Yeah, I've watched The Gentleman Afterfollowup, we're going to start rodging
Ken. We've got it on it. Oh my god, it's so good.
(31:07):
Yeah, I've met I think Imentioned it on here before, but
Ken is now on Netflix everybody,and you need to check it out.
An Irish drama which is very verygood. Yeah, and I can't think
of anything else, but I'm surewe'll come back to we will and we're
done. We thank you very muchfor listening with our sticking with us and
listening to our TV recommendations and ourtrials and tribulations about life which are so
(31:29):
many. Back next week, wewill Bye bye bye. Which Moderer is
hosted by Speaker and is recorded ina secret location in Scotland. You can
find us wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. Email us at Whitchmurderer at gmail
dot com or visit our website atwhich murderer dot com. We are also
on Instagram, read it at Twitter. Just look for the app which Murderer
(31:52):
account or hashtag. You can jointhe debate on our Facebook page and group
interacting with our listeners or the whichmore dam our theme music is Kill Me
Again by Blue Bend. Her artworkwas produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com
If you like big good afternoon.Now, good afternoon, Holly. How
are you? I am fine.It is sunny in Scotland. It was
twenty five on the way here,del sunny. How good? It's insane?
Now we do we witch murderer?Were we do? You usually get
(00:34):
quite a nice May? May usuallyworks out quite well for us. Yeah,
we do usually get quite a niceMay. The worry about that is
you want you wondered about June lastyear? I remember the second half of
me in the full of June weregorgeous last year, and then the schools
broke at the end of June andit was horrific rain. Yeah, for
(00:56):
like six weeks, so that's notgreat. However, damps like this in
me? Are you know? Good? I hope so. I hope it'll
lasts because I got a lot onin May. So I would really like
thinks that you got camping. You'vegot camping stuff, haven't you? Not?
In May? God? No,I booked that later in the year
because I learned my lesson last year. But I've got I'm away to the
lakes with a friend end of themonth. We're going to the lakes.
(01:17):
Can I do a walk and takeher dogs out there fun. What else
have I gone on? I swearI've got something else on this week next
weekend, I don't even know.Oh yeah, I'm at lock Looman next
weekend, and then I've got ohyeah, the twenty fifth of me.
Garry doesn't know, but I'm takinghim to a hands on coup tour.
(01:38):
Hands on what's that? You getto go like pet and brush highland cows?
Oh? Does he like them?He's terrified. Oh my god.
Oh no. One tried to killhim at a well, he says,
tried to kill him at a localfarm once. Wow. She was like,
Dave shitlan pony story. Yes,I tried to get shitlan poon.
He tried to kill me. Reallyyeah. But like there was a at
(02:00):
this like really nice farm where youget to like pick apples and ship there's
this highland cow in her calf andwe were like taking pictures and stuff,
and he went up to it andthe highland cow turned his head and almost
impaled him with the horn. ShSo he thinks the cow was after him.
I'm like, I'm she was.I think she was just turning her
head. But he's convinced that hewas trying to that she tried to kill
(02:20):
him. Oh no, So ishe going to see the funny side of
this? I think so. Andit's like far away. It's like a
three hour drive, so oh shure. So what are you going to tail
him? You're doing? When areyou going to tail them? I tell
him like before we go, becausedon't do surprises, okay, because he
might not win in the car anddrive for the area. He may not.
He may not, but I paidI'll just tell him like, we're
(02:43):
just going to go see some coups. Oh nice, good, Well,
he's hoping the way that keeps upfor it. I think it's to be
I think it's to be nice allweek and then it's kind of I think.
I don't know. I don't know. We'll wait and see. I
am going to try and keep mequiet because I'm a weeen holiday again in
June. You are, yes,and we're going away again in July,
I think so. Yes, I'mgoing to try and keep it low key
(03:06):
plus and a bit of a rest, yeah, because it'd been quite busy
recently. I think your liver needsrest. Yes, Yes, so we
are doing We're on episode fifty.We are and we're doing body snatcher murders,
and this was recommended by one ofmy ex colleagues, Ricky. Thank
you, Ricky. I have norecollection of him recommending it at all.
(03:28):
That I have no recollection of mostthings, no, given my age,
and that I like to drink.Yes, yes, like a small drink.
So i'm first, you are yes, So I'm doing the very famous
Burke and Hair murders are say,very famous. I'd heard of him,
but I didn't really know much aboutit. Oh really, so I did
(03:50):
quite a lot of research. ButI'll try and trim it down a bit.
If it's quite it might be well. No, continue like do yours
because mine is related to yours,so I need you to do yours also,
it's quite good. I'm first thenyes, right So. November eighteen
twenty seven, William Hare was anIrish laborer turn landlord, and he realized
(04:11):
he had a problem. His lodgerwas a man named Donald, who had
actually just died of dropsy. What'sdropsy? I think it's? Oh?
Is it? I think so?Shortly before receiving his quarterly army pension,
Donald owned owed William sorry four poundsin back rent and four pounds I'm guessings
like a daily age in twenty sevenyeah, which they say today is the
(04:31):
equivalent of nearly three hundred quid,so some odly three hundred quids for dues.
He was furious at Donald's inability tostay alive long enough to pay his
way bastards. So William got hisfellow irishman and friend, William Burke.
So we've got William here and WilliamBurke. Yeah, and it wasn't long
(04:53):
before they came up with the solution. The solution that they came up with
at the time was why do wenot sell Donald's body, because that's only
lucy you can come up with atthat time. Yeah, of course.
So we've got William Bark and Williamhere, which I call them bucking here
from now on, just to takeconfusion. There was money to be made
from dead bodies in Edinburgh and theneighteen twenties the city become a leading European
(05:13):
center for the study of medicine,which I did not know, and the
city Surgeant needed a constant supply ofcorpses to satisfy student demands for dissections.
Yep, the surgeons paid very wellten pounds in the winter when bodies could
be kept in a decent state ofpreservation for weeks and seven pounds in the
summer. Nice. The demand wasso high and the money was so good
that the city was plagued by graveroberts who were called resurrection men, and
(05:38):
these people dug up fresh corpses Edinburgh'sgraveyards to sell to surgeons. One of
the graveyards, ser just going todrop One of the graveyards just down the
road for me, near holy RoodPalace, actually has a tower built into
it so that watchmen could stand onthe tower and watch over the gravees.
No way. Yeah, I didnot know that this was a thing.
That was a huge thing. That'sa good thing about this podcast though,
(05:59):
when you do some research, she'slike, oh my god, this is
amazing. Yeah. So bodies wereworth quite a bit, and William Hare
and William Burke were felt they werequite out of pocket, William here in
particular, and he didn't want tolet the opportunity to go to waste,
so they took the body to EdinburghUniversity under the cover of darkness, hoping
to find an assistant of a veryfamous surgeon called Professor Alexander Munroau. To
(06:19):
sell it to Instead, a studentdirected them to another doctor who was well
known. He examined the body andoffered seven pounds for it, which is
almost worth six hundred pounds to day. The pair greed and they were leaving,
and the doctor said they'd be happyenough to do business with him again,
(06:40):
So they started killing people. Theywere frequently drunk when carrying out murders
of those unfortunate enough to enter theirorbit, and later struggled to remember the
order in which the victims were killedin in their police statements. What is
known for sure is that the killingsbegan in January, so that would have
been January eighteen twenty eight. Thefirst and most likely victim was a man
(07:00):
named Joseph, who was staying withWilliam Hare and his wife Margaret when he
fell ill with a fever. Margaretwas worried that there was some sort of
infection in the house, right,so William Hare and asked wilgiom Bark for
a solution. The two men quicklydecided to kill Joseph and make some profit
from his corpse. They plaied himwith miller, and they plied him with
(07:23):
sorry whiskey, and then when hewas suitably inebriated. William Burke Lane is
upper torso while William Hare suffocated himawful. This method work to treat and
would become the way that they wouldkill almost every murder at the way that
would perform every murder. Afterwards,Joseph's corpse was sold to the same doctor.
This time the price paid was tenpounds, and to their delight,
(07:46):
they felt that they'd hit on awinning idea. Nixt three victims were traveling
salesman. One fell ill with joundiceand was murdered and given to the doctor.
The other victim was allured to herdeath and plied with drink, murdered
again, and another one was asimilar fate. The bodies were all sold
(08:07):
for ten pounds each. In particulartheir last victim, the doctor was very
impressed by his freshness and didn't askanything else. So this gave them another
idea that they should probably kill andtake the bodies straight away. Yes,
it remainder of eighteen twenty eight,the bodies piled up. There was another
few corpses because of drinking nights withWilliam Here and William Burke, and actually
(08:31):
one of the latter bodies they keptfor three months before dissecting it. Oh
God, there's a lot of murdershere, which I don't know if I'm
going to go into all of them, but basically it began to be like
quite a pattern that there was murdersthat sort of carried out in the same
way. There was a particularly wellknown gentleman called Jamie Wilson in Edinburgh who
(08:52):
was mentally ill, and it waseighteen when he came across William Burk and
here they lured the young guy totheir house because he was a beggar on
the streets of Edinburgh, right,and they planned to get him drunk and
kill him in the same way thatthey had the other victims. Although Jamie
was not keen and whiskey and hewould not drink it and wasn't as drunk
(09:15):
as previous victims. When he wasattacked, he put up a fight.
He was eventually overcome and murdered,unfortunately, and they took him to doctor
Knock. So they've been taking thebodies to and doctor Knox cut off his
head and feet before dissecting his body. And again they received ten pounds for
this, like the doctor definitely knowsthere so but this is the thing.
(09:37):
Why is the doctor not question anyof this because they needed the corpses.
But I know they needed the corpses, but surely there's enough people dying anyway.
No, you couldn't, So therea law was passed in the eighteen
hundreds. I think that you couldn'tthe execution right from what I I understand,
(10:00):
the execution rate went down, Okay, people who were executed, their
bodies went to the medical schools.But when the executions reduced, there weren't
enough bodies, okay, and youcouldn't. There was no like donate your
body to science in those days.And if people were all religious, and
if you didn't prepare your body forthe afterlife, you wouldn't have an afterlife.
(10:24):
So they were buried in consecrated ground. So there was no bodies to
be given. Because everybody wanted togo to heaven, they had to be
buried in consecrated ground. Okay.So there was just no system to get
the bodies because like people who diedand weren't identified probably abused, and then
people who were executed abused. Okay, great, so they continued to kill
(10:45):
and tell. They took a coupleof lodgers called Anne and James Gidee,
who became suspicious at the activity thatwas going on. You could see that
something wasn't quite right, and theywent to see police. Police arrived and
actually found a dead body and sidedthe lords and took them into custody.
Right Apparently, by the time they'dbeen taken into custody arrested, sixteen people
(11:07):
have been murdered. They'd earned aboutone hundred and fifty pounds for bodies that
they'd sold. So apparently the tenpounds free slowly risen to one fifty and
apparently they'd made, according to today'smoney, ten grand. Holy shit,
but still that that much though,like considering what they're having to do,
(11:28):
I know. So they obviously werein police. The police were lettered to
what was going on and they wereboth questioned. They were tried before in
Edinburgh court room on Christmas Eve ofeighteen twenty eight. So this all started
what January eighteen twenty eight. Actuallysixteen people isn't actually that much when you
(11:50):
think about what they were doing.I'd expected more, Yeah, I don't.
They had other jobs though, too, didn't they? I don't know,
I don't know. It seems likea lot of report. Yes,
they were convicted in eighteen twenty eightand they were sentenced to death. William
(12:11):
Burke was hanged in the morning ofthe twenty to January eighteen twenty nine before
a crowd of twenty five thousand people. His body was dissected by the actual
doctor that they tried to get inthe first place but couldn't, the infamous
Alexander Moro. So that's so weirdesta fate. To this day, Buck's
skeleton is on display Edinburgh's Medical Schoolyep, and there's a book bound in
(12:33):
his skin which can be seen atthe Surgeon's Hall Museum. Despite never thinking
to inquire where the corpses came from, Doctor Knox, the doctor that they
use, was exonerated of blame,of course he was. This did not
stop him from being hounded out ofthe position, and he ended his days
working as a pathological anonymous anatomist ina hospital in London. The wife's of
(13:00):
working here, we're never ever heardram again, never found William here was
actually in prison sorry, and wasreleased from prison in eighteen twenty nine and
assisted by the police, he fledEdinburgh in disguise to the town of Dumfries.
He was subsequently dumped by the sideof the road outside the town and
told to make his way to England, and his feet is unknown. Oh
what happened to him? Interesting afterthat? And that all came from history
(13:22):
dot com. Very good, thankyou, so sorry, I miss I
presume they both got death scendencies,but they didn't. No, I've seen
the book with his skin. There'salso a death mask there. Oh my
god, it's weird. It's weird. I mean, obviously you don't get
to touch. It's behind glass.Yeah, Searchin's Hall Museum. I would
fully recommend. It's got like probablyhundreds of thousands, if not millions,
(13:48):
of human body parts in jars,and it's like like ears. There's an
ear section, there's an eye section, there's a cancer section, there's a
fine section, there's like a there'sbrain section. It's amazing. It's just
row upon row upon row of thesejars with all these human inner workings,
(14:09):
like every organ in the body isrepresented. And then there's the burke and
hair kind of area where they showyou the book is out with the skin.
It looks like leather. I meanyou, I wouldn't know the difference,
and know that was human skin,but it looks like leather. And
then there's like a death mask thereof his face made in wax. And
it's really interesting. It's a reallycool. Yeah, it's a really it's
(14:31):
a really cool day out. Maybenot for the kids the love nightmares,
but maybe just for the adults.Maybe for the adults. And we're back.
Indeed, it's your tongue, butI just went to sleep. Did
(14:52):
so? My story is about agroup called the London Burkers. It wouldn't
exist, Yes, the imagined BirkenHair my V six. Yes, So
the London Burkers were a group ofbody snatchers in London, England, who
modeled themselves after the Burken Hair murders. They also went by the name bethnal
(15:15):
Green Gang due to their headquarters atthe north end of bethnal Green, near
Saint Leonard's and Shoreditch in London.Okay, I think isn't bethnal Green where
Candy Man was that horror movie?Oh? I don't know, I can't
remember. Anyway, Off topic.Typically, medical cadavers needed for medical schools
were legally obtained through the execution ofcriminals, but by the nineteenth century there
(15:39):
were far fewer executions and need exceededsupply. Only fifty five people were executed
each year now and as many asfive hundred were needed, creating an opportunity
for criminal supply. Oh so theywere like massively not getting what they needed.
I don't know how you fixed thatproblem, really, to be honest,
(16:00):
So John Bishop, Thomas Williams,Michael Shields, and James May aka
Black Eyed Jack formed a gang ofresurrection men who would steal freshly buried bodies
to sell. It is believed thegang sold between five hundred and one thousand
bodies over the twelve years that theywere active. In July of eighteen thirty,
(16:22):
John Bishop rented number three Nova ScotiaGarden from a woman named Sarah True
Truby of those true words, it'snot Sarah Truby. In November the next
year, John and James attempted tosell the very very fresh body of a
fourteen year old boy to Guy's Hospital, but the hospital refused. They were
(16:45):
like, hmm, it's a bittoo fresh, thank you very much.
They then took it to King's CollegeSchool of Anatomy, where they didn't care
as much and demanded twelve guineas,but were only offered nine by the school.
Okay, probably because it was theschool believing the body had not been
(17:06):
buried. Oh god, murder bad, but stealing bodies meh. They summoned
the police. Okay, you wouldas you would. They're like, listen,
we're gonna like price you down.We'll still take the body, but
we're going to call the police onyou. The ganger arrested and held in
custody at that point. On theeighth of November eighteen thirty one, three
(17:30):
days after selling the fourteen year oldboy's body, a coroner's jury was held.
I found a verdict of wilf willfulmurder against some person or person's unknown
and expressed their belief that the gangand custody were involved. Okay. On
the nineteenth of November eighteen thirty one, police searched the cottages at Nova Scotia
Gardens and they found clothing in awell and in the toilets, suggesting multiple
(17:55):
murders. The gang went on togo to trial in December like a month
later. Because they didn't fuck aroundin the oldie times and John thirty three
and Thomas twenty six, and thenJames thirty were all found guilty of murder
and publicly sentenced to death. Policeopened up the cottages then at Nova Scotia
Gardens for the public to view,because like viewing murder scenes back in the
(18:18):
nineteenth century was a big thing.People would go travel from across the country
to go view murder scenes. Theydid it with Jack the Repper as well.
Uh huh. But the police chargedfive shillings which is about twenty five
pence in today's money to all thepeople who wanted to go view the crime
scene. Oh my god. Andthen the public who did get to see
it then proceeded to carry away piecesof the cottages the souvenirs. Basically dismantled
(18:44):
these cottages by taking away souvenirs fromthe murder scene. And that sums up
humanity. Uh huh. On Sunday, the fourth of December John same year.
So they were arrested in November andthen fourth of December John and attended
the prison chapel and they were movedor whatever, and they ended up confessing
(19:07):
to the boy's murder. Police initiallythought it was a missing Italian boy named
Carlo Ferrari, but it turned outto be a boy from Lincolnshire picked up
from the Bell Pub in Smithfield.He was offered lodging at Nova Scotia Gardens
and on arrival was drugged with rumand laudanum, which is basically opium.
(19:29):
And then while they were waiting forthis boy to fall unconscious, they went
drinking at the pub and returned whenhe was sleepy, and then they tied
his feet to a rope and drownedhim headfirst in the well. They also
admitted to murdering and selling bodies ofa homeless woman and a homeless boy in
the same way they were drowning peoplewhile they were drugged. Basically, John
(19:55):
and Thomas were hanged on the fifthof December eighteen thirty one, so a
month after being I rested I LoveIt at Newgate in front of a crowd
of thirty thousand people. Their bodieswere publicly dissected at the places they had
sold corpses to. So they thesame schools that they were selling the corpses
(20:15):
to. They dissected them publicly.Oh they let people come and watch.
Oh fun day out. Yeah.James, one of them was cleared of
murder after the confessions, but sentencedto exile for his other crimes he had
been naughty. He died the firstof December eighteen thirty four, which was
(20:37):
what three years later, and wasburied in an unmarked graved on the Isle
of the Dead, which I thinkis near Tasmania. Could be lying And
I got all that from Wikipedia.Nice, very good, thank you,
(21:00):
And we're back. We're back.So do we want to be plied with
alcohol and spiked? Yes? Please? Oh yeah, yeah, I'm going
for that. What's your thoughts?How did yours die? Fied with alcohol
and spiked? Spiked? Well,applied without whether not? Applied with alcohol
and poisoned? What? What werethey? Again? Let me kick what
(21:26):
were yours again? I'll tell youmine while you remember what yours were.
Mine were plied with alcohol and opium, so check. I like that,
and then dangled feet first down orwell and drect Oh yeah, yeah,
of course I don't like that.Yeah, but I'm thinking the opium and
alcohol mites offten that blow. Yeah. I mean you definitely wouldn't know what
was happening. You'd be completely loosinga lovely time. Yeah, spe being
(21:49):
dangled in a will, Yeah,I mean you were thrown into the well.
So I'm going you probably hit thesides on the way down and then
you drowned. Yeah, yeah,but would you have cared Probably not,
probably far too lovely a times.Yeah, right, so minds where Yeah
what were they? Yeah? Ithink they were just plied with alcohol or
(22:11):
applied with alcohol and then sort ofsmothered, smothered, so then smothered.
Yeah, I'm thinking applied with alcoholwould have obviously made made a slight difference.
Say as well, but I'm goingfor the opium now I am too.
Yeah, we've agreed. We've agreedagain, we have calling drugs alcohol
way for children is the way forward. Don't let your children listen to this
(22:33):
podcast? You do please, I'mnever letting my childs and listen to the
past few times and I'm like no, nope, absolutely, well we'll just
we'll just get it on whatever.I'm like, no, you want,
Yeah, it's not for it's notfor young people. It's about like margin
and you know, the sense ofsubjects we cover. No, I want
to listen to it. And I'mlike absolutely not, No, no,
it will never happen. It isa bad idea. Have we done this?
(22:55):
Anything else you'd like to talk about, Well, let me tell you
about the shows that I've been watching. Oh, yes, TV Time.
We're like a TV Time TV TimeSo I don't know if I already recommended
this or not, but we arewatching Oh, let me get this right,
because I got it wrong last nightand I got blasted. We are
watching Fallout, which is based onthe video game time. Yes. Yeah,
(23:18):
so it's based on the video game. So if you're not a video
game person, you might watch itand be like, this is fucking weird
but still kind of entertaining. Ifyou're a video in person, you're like,
this is amazing. Okay, I'mprobably not going to watch it,
so you can just talk about it. It's not about video games, but
it's like about apocalyptic stuff, butlike what if the world kind of ended
in the fifties kind of era.It's very strange, like it basically America.
(23:41):
It's it's not about aliens. It'sabout the human race killing zombies.
No, okay, although there aresome weird creatures and yeah, I'm fine.
Yeah. So we watched that,and then we watched The Gentleman.
We've just finished it so good.I didn't love it for a while.
(24:02):
It didn't I was myself. Oh, very James. But he's a really
strange voice he does because I've onlyseen him in The White Lotus when he
played an American guy. Yeah,and he was horrible. He was a
bastard and the White Loas White Loasis phenomenal. And then I heard him
talk and I was like, thatis not a real accents. It's like
such a deep voice. Yeah,that's the way he talks. I've seen
(24:22):
an interview. I expected more fromit in the beginning, Oh did you
normally Guy Richy stuff normally gets mequite definitely a Guy Ritchie man it is,
but I will see. It tookme a while, but I got
into it and by the end ofit I thought I really enjoyed that.
Yeah, yeah, it was it. We really enjoyed it. There were
times that Gary was like, Ican't watch this anymore. This person needs
(24:47):
to die, like they're so annoying. They're so annoying. How can they
keep sucking up so badly? Theyneed to die? But yeah, it
was really. I mean it's veryIf you're not into Guy Ritchie, it
is very Guy Richie and you it'sit's like Quentin Tarantino or I didn't like
the film. I must say thatthe guy that you filmed the gender,
Yeah, I wasn't really I didn'treally like it that much. I'm not
I'm not a big Ey Richie fan. I love lock Stock and Snatch and
(25:07):
all that. They were brilliant.But I'm also not like a huge Tarantino
fan either. Then maybe in mylike I did like kell Bell and everything.
Yeah, not so much pulp fictionas such. I I love the
kell Bill films. Kill Bill waswas all right. I'm not a massive
Tarantino fan either. No, butthis one, this one got me.
I like. But Theo James andKaya Scolarado are brilliant in it, and
(25:30):
I love Anny Jones in it aswell. Oh my god, so good,
so good. And the brother Ican't remember the name of the guy
who played the brother, really annoyingbrother. Yeah he was so annoying,
Like, yeah, he was funny. He was really good. But there's
another one coming. They're making anotherseason. Oh good good, And we
have to discuss what the world istalking about just now that was not discussed
in this podcast, which is BabyIndia. Oh my god, Baby Reindeer.
(25:56):
So so if you've not seen it, everyone you need to see because
the whole world's talking about I don'twant to give anything away. Let's not
give it away. But I thinkif you've not seen it, right,
and this is what I keep seeingpeople that I'm working with, I've not
seen it. And if you havegone to watch it after I've said this,
I'm like, it's not just abouta stalker. No, no,
Like, there's so much is reallydark in parts, and there's a proper
(26:17):
message in it, right, yeah, but there's so much more, like
because at first you watch it andyou're like, why is this guy giving
her the time of day? Likewhy is he like why would you not
report her sooner? Or whatever else? But then there's a significant event in
his life that's happened, that transpired. It tells you about it and you
understand fully wise the way is andit's it's about a lot of different things,
(26:40):
now stalking, it's about like mentalhealth issues and various other subjects.
And when you it's a hard watch. It's not an easy You didn't watch
it too quiet ly on you're oneof the last to watch it, the
last watching things and you went thathere on it either and we were like,
no, it's about more than that. I just watch it. You
kind of got it as you watchedit. Oh definitely. However, so
I didn't tease were obviously not supposedto be uncovered. It was if you've
(27:03):
not seen it, we're not goingto tell you the whole thing. There's
seven episodes. It's worth watching.However, identities after it came out,
shortly after that came out were quicklyuncovered. And the woman that it's about
didn't really do herself any fevers,didn't really cover our tracks that much.
No, neither of them did.Like if he did. They thought they
found the man, but that's notbeen revealed. It's not been confirmed or
(27:26):
anything like that. There's I mean, there's there's a pretty st yeah,
but the woman it is mentally ill. Oh definitely. And the other day
she went on to Peers Morgan's Soldierstory and told the world that you know
it's not too whatever else. Butdid you watch it? Yeah, well
no, I didn't watch who clipsit is? It's hard the things I've
(27:48):
seen. It's a hard watch becauseyou know that she's contradicting her mentally.
But at the same time, here'sMorgan. I'm not a big Piers Morgan
fan, but it was genuinely foryour ten and he did treat it with
kid gloves a bit. But sheshould not have an on tailor because she
and the fact that that Pure's Morgan. I have such at opinion of him
(28:11):
anyway. I think he is areally lacking in morals. But the fact
that he had a mentally ill personon there, knowing that she's not mentally
well in the first place, nomatter how he conducted himself, he shouldn't
have done it. He absolutely shouldn'thave done it. But he did treat
it carefully. But he tried totreat it carefully because she's not mentally well.
(28:33):
No, and she did herself nofavors. She looks even more of
a psychoew than she did before.Yeah, she definitely get it. I
think I think it does. Seeat the beginning of the documentary that some
of it is babricated for like TVdrama. She basically denied everything that they
have evidence of. Yeah, theyhave evidence of over sending like forty one
thousand emails, and she denied.At first, she was like I sent
(28:55):
one or her emails. Then itbecome became six or seven, and then
it became nine or ten. Yeah, and there was just stuff she was
seeing. You're like, you areone hundred percent did in my opinion,
it's only my opinion, do dosome of the things there. Whether it
was as bad as the show madeout, whether it was not as bad
(29:15):
as the show made out, Idon't know. I don't know. But
she definitely was more involved than whatshe said she was. Yeah, and
she's really she's saying, she saysshe's suing everybody. Now she's going to
find herself on coat and she's goingto find find herself in a lot of
trouble. I don't think. Idon't know how she can do Netflix when
Netflix of proof of what she's done. Oh, she can't suit them.
She can't Netflix. She's suing theguy that it's about, She's suon Netflix,
(29:37):
and she's suing the Daily Mail.Yeah, but she can all this
on Teley. She can see themas much as she wants, but she
won't win because it's it's He's alreadysaid it's not based on fact in the
beginning. So if you've not seenit, you can watch it Netflix,
and then you can watch an interviewon YouTube shortly after it. But it's
definitely worth seven episodes happen out eachepisode think and it's worth seeing just to
(29:57):
make your mind up about it andgo, oh god. The episode four
and five are really hard to get. Yeah, they were dark. I
said that to you. I waslike that. That's when I nearly turned
off because something it's too dark.However, his message at the end of
it, he says the reason hemade it in one of the messages he
wanted to take from it is thatmental health in this country, the girl's
(30:18):
mental health has went unsupported for along time. I don't think that was
his goal, he says it was. I know he says it was,
but I don't think it was,because why would you make it so easy
to find her by leaving the stuffshe put on your social media's Maybe it's
stalking laws as well, they onceimproved, I know, but stalking.
But I think she's been majorly laiddown. She's been let down and now
(30:44):
she's fifty eight. Yeah, butit's worth it's worth taking out. She's
not mentally well, but yeah,definitely definitely check it out. And you
know that's her TV recommendations. Yeah, I can't think of any other I
watched I've mentioned the Beer, whichis fabulous and it's back the next month.
Yeah, I've watched The Gentleman Afterfollowup, we're going to start rodging
Ken. We've got it on it. Oh my god, it's so good.
(31:07):
Yeah, I've met I think Imentioned it on here before, but
Ken is now on Netflix everybody,and you need to check it out.
An Irish drama which is very verygood. Yeah, and I can't think
of anything else, but I'm surewe'll come back to we will and we're
done. We thank you very muchfor listening with our sticking with us and
listening to our TV recommendations and ourtrials and tribulations about life which are so
(31:29):
many. Back next week, wewill Bye bye bye. Which Moderer is
hosted by Speaker and is recorded ina secret location in Scotland. You can
find us wherever you listen to yourpodcasts. Email us at Whitchmurderer at gmail
dot com or visit our website atwhich murderer dot com. We are also
on Instagram, read it at Twitter. Just look for the app which Murderer
(31:52):
account or hashtag. You can jointhe debate on our Facebook page and group
interacting with our listeners or the whichmore dam our theme music is Kill Me
Again by Blue Bend. Her artworkwas produced by Wild Creations at fiver dot com
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