September 6, 2024 • 29 mins
LISTENER ANNOUNCEMENT: It’s a boy! Welcome Garry for Season 7!
In Which Murderer’s opening episode of Season 7, the gang covers Murdered by Proxy. Garry starts us off with the case of John Bodkin Adams, before Holly goes over the tale of Mark Hopkinson.
Listener Saraid suggested this week’s topic - thanks so much!
This week Holly recounts her summer (most of which she can’t remember), Garry starts his podcasting journey and drugs make another ill advised appearance.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who has begged Consulting Producer Craig to take pity on her poor soul and take on editing for next week.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Garry while Consulting Producer Craig puts on one of his wigs and pretends to be Mrs. Neighbourhouse to avoid editing requests.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
In Which Murderer’s opening episode of Season 7, the gang covers Murdered by Proxy. Garry starts us off with the case of John Bodkin Adams, before Holly goes over the tale of Mark Hopkinson.
Listener Saraid suggested this week’s topic - thanks so much!
This week Holly recounts her summer (most of which she can’t remember), Garry starts his podcasting journey and drugs make another ill advised appearance.
Production, recording and post production completed by Holly who has begged Consulting Producer Craig to take pity on her poor soul and take on editing for next week.
Holly edited this week. All complaints should be sent directly to Garry while Consulting Producer Craig puts on one of his wigs and pretends to be Mrs. Neighbourhouse to avoid editing requests.
Big thank you to all our listeners for subscribing, leaving fantastic reviews and sending in great theme suggestions.
WE HAVE MERCH! www.whichmurderer.com - CLICK ON THE MERCHANDISE TAB FOR A LINK!
WARNING - Explicit language, content and themes (plus whatever else will cover us legally). All opinions stated are our own and case information was gathered from legitimate sources within the public realm.
Pre-recorded in Scotland
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Gown the gown if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to season seven and welcome to changes everybody. You'll
see from the announcement that Mel is off on other
adventures after her three year stint, and I have brought
in a boy to take over her place. Would you
like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hello everyone, I'm Gardy.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
There you go. I brought you a Gary and yeah,
usually we update Mel and I would update at this point.
So what is new? Let's see what is new? They
broke my car and then I had to get it
recharged because I left stuff on over the summer. What
(01:08):
else has happened over the summer? Oh? Yes, Gary got
very sick. You don't have to talk about that, but
you got very sick. So you were in and out
of hospital a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, let's see what else happened? Actually, nothing much. I
slept a lot and ate a lot. Kind of it.
Do you want to tell anybody anything about yourself or
do you want to remain elusive and secretive.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We'll just see how it goes. I've been on a
lot of medication over the past couple of months, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, you've kind of been like stuck in the house
and in the hospital. So yeah, not too wild and crazy.
Gary's from Glasgow, in case you couldn't tell, he is Scottish.
So we are going to go right into episode zero.
I don't know why I numbered at zero, it should
be one, but it's murdered by proxy. This I think
(02:03):
was recommended by Sara, and I've seen everybody's messages and
everything else on social media. I'm lazy and I can't
say everything that all of you said, but thank you
for all your messages over the summer and over our break,
encouraging us and saying that you miss us and we
are back. So this is episode zero, which really screws
(02:25):
up my numbering system. Actually, okay, you go first.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Go on. Vodkin Adams was a British general practitioner, convicted
fraudstar and suspected serio killer. Between nineteen forty six and
nineteen fifty six, one hundred and sixty three of its
patients died while they were in comas, which was deemed
to be worthay of investigation. One hundred and thirty two
(02:53):
out of three hundred and ten patients had left Adam's
money or items in their will coincidence. John Bodkin Adams
was born and raised in Randallstown, Ulster, Ireland, into a
deeply religious family of Plymouth Brethren Limouth Brethren. I think
that's like like a type of Protestant or something.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think that's like, what are those people called, the
people who don't like dancing and singing?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And he says, an austere Protestant set, of which he
remained a member of his entire life. His father, Samuel,
was a preacher in the local congregation and a watchmaker
by profession. Also had a passionate interest in cars, which
he would pass on to John. In eighteen ninety six.
(03:45):
Samuel was thirty nine years of age when he married
Ellen Bodkin, aged thirty oh John was their first son,
followed by a brother, William Samuel, in nineteen o three.
In nineteen fourteen, Adam's father died of a stroke. Four
years later, his brother died in the nineteen eighteen influenza
(04:06):
pandemic was the Spanish flu I.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Think Saliah was right after the First World War.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
After attending Coleraine Academical Institution for several years, Adams matriculated
at the Queen's University of Belfast at the age seventeen.
There was seen as a plouda and lone wolf by
his lecturers, and partly because of an illness, probably tuberculosis,
(04:32):
he missed the year of study. He graduated in nineteen
twenty one, having failed to qualify for honors.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That's not the end of the world, is it, especially
if you have TV.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, he did at least to graduate. Yeah. Nineteen twenty one,
surgeon Arthur Rendo Short offered Adams a position as assistant
houseman at Bristol Royal Infirmary. He spent a year there
but did not prove a success. Adam's rye in Eastbourne
in nineteen twenty two, where he lived with his mother
(05:03):
and his cousin, Sarah Florence Henry. In nineteen twenty nine,
he borrowed two thousand pounds we went to one hundred
and one hundred thousand pounds in today's money from a
patient William Mohood, and bought an eighteen room house called
Kent Lodge in Trinity Trees.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Can you imagine doctor asked you for a long and be.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Like, so two thousand pounds back then.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Was undergrad Yeah, we need to get a time machine.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Wow. Adams would frequently invite himself to the Mohood's residents
at meal time, even bringing his mother and cousin. He
also began charging night in to their accounts at local
stores without their permission. Missus Mohood would later describe Adams
to be to replace as a real scrounger. When mister
(06:01):
Mohood died in nineteen forty nine, Adams visited his widow
uninvited and took a twenty two car at gold pen
from her bedroom dressing table, saying he wanted something of
her husband. You never visited her again. Gossip regarding Adam's
unconventional methods had started by the mid nineteen thirties. Nineteen
(06:24):
thirty five, he inherited seven thousand, three hundred and eighty
five pounds from a patient, Matilda Witting. Her whole estate
amounted to eleven thousand, four hundred and sixty five pounds,
equivalent to over four hundred grand today today's market and
today's money, you know, equivalent.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So you left her like two thirds of her money,
or she left him two thirds of her money.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, remarkably weird making money start getting ideos just sticking
about the money. That's quite a lot of money. Yeah, Anyway,
Witnes's will was contested by her relatives, but upheld in court,
though a co distle co disso, I don't know how
(07:12):
we saying that?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Distel keep what's the next word?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Dissol Giving Adam's mother one hundred pound was overturned. Adams
then began receiving anonymous postcards about him bumping off patients,
as he admitted in a newspaper interview in nineteen fifty seven.
These were received at a rate of three or four
a year until the Second World War, and then commenced
(07:41):
again in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So somebody knew, Yeah, somebody new.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Nineteen thirty nine or nineteen forty one, Adams started injecting
and missus Agnes Pike with drugs, including morphine. After some
time in his care, Missus Pike's health deteriorated so much
at the family, alerted by the proprietor of the guesthouse,
(08:05):
Missus Pike was in called another doctor, and then Philip
Matthew established that there was no medical reason for missus
Pike to betrayed Adam's drugs, notably, the morphine put her
in such a state that she was able to recall
her own name or age.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Wow, she was.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Removed from Adam's care, and after about eight weeks she
made almost a full recovery. She regained our mental faculties
and was well enough to go out and do her
own shopping. There was a rare case of Adam's victim surviving.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
She was now addicted to morphine.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yes, she was special. After years of rumors and Adams
having been mentioned in at least one hundred and thirty
two wills of his patients, twenty four July nineteen fifty six,
Eastbourne Police received an anonymous call about a death. It
was from Leslie Henson, the music hall performer, whose friend
(09:05):
Gertrude or Gertrude pillet And had died unexpectedly while being
treated by Adams only twenty five to July nineteen fifty six,
the day missus Wilt died, the Eastbourne Coroner notified Walker
that from his postmottemn her death did not appear to
be natural. Police began taking statements from individuals who had
(09:30):
been in contact with her shortly before her death, many
of whom believed that she had committed suicide. Oh one
of our friends, who was also our executor, provided three
letters she had written in April nineteen fifty six and
had placed with her will which indicated that she had
(09:51):
contemplated suicide. Then a second post mortem conducted by a
Home Office pathologist concluded that the cause of her our
death was barbituarate poisoning.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Arbituate poisoning yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
After the second post Bartom investigation was taken over from
Eastbourne Police on seventeen for August nineteen fifty six by
two officers from the Metropolitan Police's Mother Squad. Met the
senior officer, Detective Superintendent Herbert hann Annham of Scotland Yard,
was known for having secured a conviction in the Teddington
(10:26):
Towpath Mothers in nineteen fifty three. Although he Defense Council
Peter Rowlinson called into question Hannam's evidence of how the
confession was obtained in view of the opinion, Hannam was
later expressed but detectives must sometimes ignore the law as
methods are open to question. He was assisted by Detective
(10:50):
Servant Charles Hewitt. Annham was in the unusual position that
instead of having to find a suspect for an own crime,
he had an own suspect in Adams, but needed to
link Kim to the most serious crimes and forging prescription,
making false statements, and mishandling drugs definitely suggested that Hannam
became fixated an idea that Adams had murdered many elderly patients,
(11:13):
but legacy regarding his receiving a legacy as grounds for suspicion.
Although Adams was generally only a minor beneficiary, investigators decided
to focus on cases from nineteen forty seven to nineteen
fifty seven. Of the three hundred and ten death certificates
examined by Home Office patfoliogist Francis Camps, one hundred and
(11:36):
sixty three were considered by Camps to be worthy of
further investigation. This was because, firstly, a very high proportion
some forty two percent of all three hundred and ten
of Adam's deceased patients were diagnosed as having died of
cerebro thrombosis or cerebro hemorrhage, against an average near late
(11:59):
ninety fifties of around fifteen percent for the elderly right
now bedridden patients and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Secondly, one hundred and sixty three certificate is related to
Adams patients that die well in a coma which could
be suggestive of the administration of our cody or barbiturate,
as well as the cause stated. The police took numerous
statements from nusses who had treated Adam's patient and their relatives.
Some are generally favorable to him, but others claimed Adams
(12:29):
had given patients special injections of substances that were unknown
to the nurses, in which Adams refused to disclose to them. Basically,
he's doing things his way and he knows how much
will kill. Yeah, you know what I mean. That's usually
I think the hospitals let nusses give patients medications of
(12:49):
paying kills.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, it's still prescribed by a doctor, but the nurses
are allowed to give it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
He's basically just taking controller making them obsolete.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
The statements were also claimed that his habit was to
ask the nuss to leave the room oh scoopy before
injections were given, and that he would also isolate patients
from the relatives, hindering contact between them. However, several of
the witnesses whom Hannam had questioned verbly refused to give
someone statements to confirm their allegations against Adams. During the trial.
(13:23):
The assertions of missus Morrel that says it did not
know what Adams was injecting or that he did not
give injections in front of him were disproved by the
contact by the contents of their own notebooks. Adams was
first arrested in twenty four for November nineteen fifty six
(13:44):
and thirteen charges including false representation on cremation certificates and
granted Bill was saying he was granted. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
He was arrested down in nineteen for December nineteen fifty
six and charged with the murder of missus Morrel. Went
on of the charges he said, murther or murther, and
you prove it was murther. I didn't think you could
prove it was murther. She was dying in any event,
that was I mean, that was his statement.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It was good up until the last sentence that kind
of was incriminating.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But yeah, Anham considered he had collected enough evidence and
at least four of the cases for prosecution to be
warranteed regarding Clara Neil Mother, Julia R. Bradnam, Edith Alice Morrow,
and Gertrude will It all these. Adams was charged on
(14:37):
one count the murther of moral Although it was usual
nineteen fifty six for only one court of murther to
be indicted, evidence of other suspected mother's not being tried
could be given Fredy Deach. Such instance would on its
own facts, be capable of proof beyond reasonable doubt and
(14:57):
strikingly similar to the case try.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I think we tried to say, yeah, see evidence, I.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Tried to say that word, but they're using quote.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah. It was no no, but yeah, if it's all
the same evidence, then they can't be tried for the
other crimes, or it was not likely to get a conviction.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, you still use that. You still use something
called more of doctrine, which basically means if you get
out on bail or there's a case suspended against you,
and if you commit a similar a similar offense, yeah,
then you'll be you'll be convicted to one of them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Oh right, okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So you're you're going to spend time on one of them.
April nineteen fifty seven, the jury were returned after forty
four minutes to find Adams not guilty.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Adams slipped and fractured his hip for June nineteen eighty
three while shooting in Battle. He was taken to Eastbourne
Hospital but developed a chest infection and in the fourth
of July of left ventric failure. He left an estate
of four hundred and two thousand pounds and bequeest one
(16:09):
thousand to Percy Hoskins. Hoskins gave the money to charity.
Adams had had been receiving legacy legacies until.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
The end, so he was getting money from people until
he died.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
What year did he die? I said, nineteen eighty three,
you know, was it? Yeah, June nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Three, So he carried on like thirty more years after
his trial. Ish, wow, so technically innocent. But he's dead
now and I say guilty, very good, and we're back. Okay,
(16:51):
it's my turn. Murdered by proxy. Mark Alan Hopkinson was
born eighth October in nineteen forty nine in Evanston, which
was located in a valley. Don't think that's important, but
I wrote it down. After high school, Mark accepted a
football scholarship to the University of Arizona. During this time,
he was convicted of delivering controlled substances in nineteen seventy one,
(17:16):
so he was a bit of a drug dealer in UNI,
and shortly after being released from federal prison, he returned
to Bridger Valley in nineteen seventy five. Later that same year,
he became involved in two legal disputes over water rights.
Mark's father had been building a trailer park in nineteen
seventy four and in the process covered a ditch which
(17:39):
was carrying water to a property owned by the Rightses,
who then consulted a local attorney named Vincent Weahar. A
lawsuit was filed against Mark's father and the rights is one.
When Mark arrived, he took over the trailer park project
and sought to have the court's decision reversed on appeal
for his father. In April of nineteen seventy six, Mark
(18:02):
met with the Royses and asked if they could reach
a settlement outside of court and without lawyers being involved.
They refused very smartly, and he threatened to build a
trailer park in a way that would inconvenience them greatly.
I don't know what that means, but it was a
weird way to threaten someone. A month later, Mark went
(18:23):
back and attacked fifty five year old Frank Routs. His
father was also there and he used a hammer to
attack him as well. Afterward, the Rutses spoke to their
lawyer about filing charges, but the county attorney was Jim
Phyllis Phillips, who had been hired by Mark for the
water rights appeal, and he refused to file charges because
(18:45):
he was totally corrupt. So because he was working for
the guy who assaulted the guy, he wasn't going to
file charges. This is what happens in small town. In
nineteen seventy five, Mark's father had arranged for a for
the trailer park to be connected by the Fort Bridgers
Sewer and Waterboard to the sewer system. The initial cost
(19:07):
was one hundred dollars per trailer, but the charges were
increased to three hundred dollars per trailer. The contract was
signed in nineteen seventy six and all the hookups took place.
Mark then announced that he had no intention in paying
the bill at those rates, So after he signed the
contract he was like, Nah, not doing it. They're all connected,
can't do anything to me. Well, Dick, The waterboard were
(19:31):
trying to force Mark to pay, and he in turn
was threatening several board members. The board fouled a lawsuit
through the same lawyers the rights is had used, Vincent Vehar,
and asked in the suit that Mark not only paid
the invoice, but also fifty grand in damages, like you know,
them being scared and stuff and the emotional damage whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
There's a lot of money back then.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, but I think he's threatened a lot of people.
The same year, Mark met Mike Kicky and James Heisel
through his carpenter Jeff Green. The trio, like Jeff and
Mike and James, had been involved in thefts and burglaries
in the area. Mike had also murdered a girl who
had given a statement to police against James. Mark asked
(20:17):
a man named Harold James Taylor to attack the lawyer,
Vincent Vyhart in late nineteen seventy six for two hundred dollars,
but then escalated it to murder for six hundred dollars.
Just not enough, that's not a good rate. James was
paid in December of nineteen seventy six to carry out
the murder, but he changed his mind shortly after that.
(20:39):
In March or April of nineteen seventy seven, Mark also
tried to bribe a former president of the Sewer Board
to give false testimony, but he refused as well. Mark
began planning with Mike how to kill Vincent Veyhard, the lawyer.
He promised to pay him two thousand dollars plus expenses
and to help him cover up the murder of Kelly Wickenho's,
(21:02):
the girl that Mike had murdered previously previous to them
knowing each other. They planned to throw a bomb through
the basement of Vincent's home, and in the early morning
hours of August tenth, nineteen seventy seven, Mike threw a
bomb in a basement window, which detonated at three forty
five am. It destroyed the house and killed Vincent Behar,
(21:22):
his wife Beverly, and their son John. He took out
the whole family. All this guy had to do was
pay his bill, Like it wasn't that much. Mark and
Mike kept their distance from each other after the bombings
to kind of like keep suspicion low, and Mark never
paid the two grand fee to kill the Kui either,
(21:44):
so he didn't even pay that bill of his murder bill.
Mike's friend James was being questioned regarding some thefts, and
as leverage, he told the police about Mike's murder of
Kelly and took police to where her body was buried.
Police tracked down Mike and events was arrested for Kelly's murder. Meanwhile,
in nineteen seventy eight, Mike went to prison for burglary.
(22:06):
So everybody's getting caught. In July that year, during the
murder trial for Kelly, the carpenter Jeff Green broke down
and told the truth about what he knew. They said
Mark and Mike had killed Vincent Behar later recounting Mark's
involvement over fear for his safety. So initially he was like, yeah,
Mark and Mike did this, and then he was like no, no, no, no, no,
(22:27):
it was just Mike. I am in danger because he
was worried that Mark was going to kill him. It
was too late, though, the story had hit newspapers, and
in March of nineteen seventy nine, Mark was put on
trial with Mike for a nineteen seventy seven attempt to
put a bomb in a car. I think the police
were just trying to get him in prison at this
point while they burilt up the murder case. Mark was
(22:47):
convicted and Mike was found not guilty. From prison, Mark
made over one hundred phone calls to allegedly plan the
murder of Jeff Green, the guy who broke and told
the police that he had killed him. On May twentieth,
nineteen seventy nine, Jeff's mutilated body was found two days
(23:07):
before the grand jury's investigation into the Vaihar family's murder.
So I killed the witness as well. Wow, he had
one hundred and forty cigarette burns on him, and then
he had been shot, so he'd obviously been tortured today
and then shot to death. Mike was called to testify
at the grand jury in May of nineteen seventy nine,
where he promptly broke down everybody's breaking down and confessed
(23:30):
to Kelly's murder and the bombing murder of the Vyhars.
In his plea bargain, he turned witness against Mark and
he received twenty one years in prison, and he has
actually served as full prison sentence he's out. Mark was
indicted for the murder of the Vahars and Jeff Green,
and he went to trial on the third of September
nineteen seventy nine. Mark was found guilty and sentenced to death.
(23:54):
Mark claimed his innocence all the way to his execution,
which took place by lethal injection on the twenty second
of January nineteen ninety two. His execution was the first
in Wyoming since nineteen sixty five. And I got this
from murder Pedia and Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well deserved.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yes it was. Yes, he was. He was naughty, and
we're back. I forgot. I was going to update people
on the fact that our house has now turned into
the friend's house because we have a cafe open downstairs.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yep, in a cafe. If ever get a soul buns,
is it so burns?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, they're called sol buns. These they're so good that
it's like a sweet dough with cream, cheese herb filling inside.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, very addictive, the crack.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I've made best friends with the people. Obviously, I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna name them because I don't want
people to know where we live. But I just I
love them so much.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Anyway, I think we kept the business alive last week.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think we might have Yeah, and then I went
on a diet, so now I can't have any which
is very sad. Okay, so conclusion do you? I mean,
I don't even know why I'm act asking this. I
know what we'll both say. Do you want to be
injected with morphine heroines?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Please?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yes? Please? Or would you like to be how did
my people die again?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, blown up or shot or tortured, dune.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Shot the morphine.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would take the morphine. I would take the morphine.
And if I wasn't, like with a killer, I just
feel like, yes, please, doctor, please inject me.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
The last time I had morphine, I got really bad tummache.
So now I'm I'm kind of sad about that.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, trying to figure out how you got how did
he get them? Mere saying over the wils, obviously he done.
I'm just because for me, I just just want them.
It wasn't a lot more made of made of the
folgery of the wives and stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I personally think it should be illegal to leave your
doctor anything your personal doctor. I think it should be
illegal to leave them anything in your will. It's just
it's too much of a conflict of interest. I think
if you're going to leave it to like the Cancer
Society or the Heart Foundation, that's great, But I mean
I wouldn't leave money to my doctor.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I guess things were different.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Better, I suppose, But so that's a lot of people
choosing to leave their doctors' money, and I just don't
see that being right.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it's obviously set out. They knew what he was doing,
they knew yeah, where he wanted to be. I mean
he's set up shot, you know, in a place where
people had money.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I don't think also that he was an angel of
death because I don't think it was like doing it
to put people out of their misery. I think he
was doing it for.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
The money, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Or maybe it was just like a bone.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, it was personal gain. It
was definitely a selfish thing. He was doing it for totally,
and thirty two patients left their wills to him.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot of people. So, yeah, we
are going to go with drug injections. Please dead or alive,
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, live again.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, it's stripped off into a nice sleep. All right. Well,
thanks for joining us everyone on our first episode, obviously,
we will get into the groove with my lovely new
co host Gary. Do you want to be called Gary
or Gaz?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I don't mind, just whatever you want to call me.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I can't call you. I can't call you Gazz because
I find it strange, but other people can call you gaz.
I mean it's people can call you whatever they want
as long as it's nice. We will be back next week.
Please give us a five star review if you feel
so inclined on our wherever you're listening, I don't even
know where people listen anymore, and keep chatting. We have
(27:50):
a Facebook group chat, we have Instagram. We are on Twitter,
although I never use it, so good luck with that.
We're also on TikTok and I know we use that either,
so maybe Instagram. Maybe find me on Instagram. That's probably
the easiest way to do it. And we will be
back next week.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Which Murderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at which
murderer dot com. We are also on Instagram, Reddit and Twitter.
Just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(28:33):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
group interacting with on our listeners or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is kill Me Again by bluebend Our
artwork was produced by wild Creations at fiver dot com.
Gown the gown if you like.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to season seven and welcome to changes everybody. You'll
see from the announcement that Mel is off on other
adventures after her three year stint, and I have brought
in a boy to take over her place. Would you
like to introduce yourself?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hello everyone, I'm Gardy.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
There you go. I brought you a Gary and yeah,
usually we update Mel and I would update at this point.
So what is new? Let's see what is new? They
broke my car and then I had to get it
recharged because I left stuff on over the summer. What
(01:08):
else has happened over the summer? Oh? Yes, Gary got
very sick. You don't have to talk about that, but
you got very sick. So you were in and out
of hospital a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, let's see what else happened? Actually, nothing much. I
slept a lot and ate a lot. Kind of it.
Do you want to tell anybody anything about yourself or
do you want to remain elusive and secretive.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We'll just see how it goes. I've been on a
lot of medication over the past couple of months, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, you've kind of been like stuck in the house
and in the hospital. So yeah, not too wild and crazy.
Gary's from Glasgow, in case you couldn't tell, he is Scottish.
So we are going to go right into episode zero.
I don't know why I numbered at zero, it should
be one, but it's murdered by proxy. This I think
(02:03):
was recommended by Sara, and I've seen everybody's messages and
everything else on social media. I'm lazy and I can't
say everything that all of you said, but thank you
for all your messages over the summer and over our break,
encouraging us and saying that you miss us and we
are back. So this is episode zero, which really screws
(02:25):
up my numbering system. Actually, okay, you go first.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Go on. Vodkin Adams was a British general practitioner, convicted
fraudstar and suspected serio killer. Between nineteen forty six and
nineteen fifty six, one hundred and sixty three of its
patients died while they were in comas, which was deemed
to be worthay of investigation. One hundred and thirty two
(02:53):
out of three hundred and ten patients had left Adam's
money or items in their will coincidence. John Bodkin Adams
was born and raised in Randallstown, Ulster, Ireland, into a
deeply religious family of Plymouth Brethren Limouth Brethren. I think
that's like like a type of Protestant or something.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I think that's like, what are those people called, the
people who don't like dancing and singing?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And he says, an austere Protestant set, of which he
remained a member of his entire life. His father, Samuel,
was a preacher in the local congregation and a watchmaker
by profession. Also had a passionate interest in cars, which
he would pass on to John. In eighteen ninety six.
(03:45):
Samuel was thirty nine years of age when he married
Ellen Bodkin, aged thirty oh John was their first son,
followed by a brother, William Samuel, in nineteen o three.
In nineteen fourteen, Adam's father died of a stroke. Four
years later, his brother died in the nineteen eighteen influenza
(04:06):
pandemic was the Spanish flu I.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Think Saliah was right after the First World War.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
After attending Coleraine Academical Institution for several years, Adams matriculated
at the Queen's University of Belfast at the age seventeen.
There was seen as a plouda and lone wolf by
his lecturers, and partly because of an illness, probably tuberculosis,
(04:32):
he missed the year of study. He graduated in nineteen
twenty one, having failed to qualify for honors.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
That's not the end of the world, is it, especially
if you have TV.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, he did at least to graduate. Yeah. Nineteen twenty one,
surgeon Arthur Rendo Short offered Adams a position as assistant
houseman at Bristol Royal Infirmary. He spent a year there
but did not prove a success. Adam's rye in Eastbourne
in nineteen twenty two, where he lived with his mother
(05:03):
and his cousin, Sarah Florence Henry. In nineteen twenty nine,
he borrowed two thousand pounds we went to one hundred
and one hundred thousand pounds in today's money from a
patient William Mohood, and bought an eighteen room house called
Kent Lodge in Trinity Trees.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Can you imagine doctor asked you for a long and be.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Like, so two thousand pounds back then.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Was undergrad Yeah, we need to get a time machine.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Wow. Adams would frequently invite himself to the Mohood's residents
at meal time, even bringing his mother and cousin. He
also began charging night in to their accounts at local
stores without their permission. Missus Mohood would later describe Adams
to be to replace as a real scrounger. When mister
(06:01):
Mohood died in nineteen forty nine, Adams visited his widow
uninvited and took a twenty two car at gold pen
from her bedroom dressing table, saying he wanted something of
her husband. You never visited her again. Gossip regarding Adam's
unconventional methods had started by the mid nineteen thirties. Nineteen
(06:24):
thirty five, he inherited seven thousand, three hundred and eighty
five pounds from a patient, Matilda Witting. Her whole estate
amounted to eleven thousand, four hundred and sixty five pounds,
equivalent to over four hundred grand today today's market and
today's money, you know, equivalent.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
So you left her like two thirds of her money,
or she left him two thirds of her money.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, remarkably weird making money start getting ideos just sticking
about the money. That's quite a lot of money. Yeah, Anyway,
Witnes's will was contested by her relatives, but upheld in court,
though a co distle co disso, I don't know how
(07:12):
we saying that?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Distel keep what's the next word?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Dissol Giving Adam's mother one hundred pound was overturned. Adams
then began receiving anonymous postcards about him bumping off patients,
as he admitted in a newspaper interview in nineteen fifty seven.
These were received at a rate of three or four
a year until the Second World War, and then commenced
(07:41):
again in nineteen forty five.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So somebody knew, Yeah, somebody new.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Nineteen thirty nine or nineteen forty one, Adams started injecting
and missus Agnes Pike with drugs, including morphine. After some
time in his care, Missus Pike's health deteriorated so much
at the family, alerted by the proprietor of the guesthouse,
(08:05):
Missus Pike was in called another doctor, and then Philip
Matthew established that there was no medical reason for missus
Pike to betrayed Adam's drugs, notably, the morphine put her
in such a state that she was able to recall
her own name or age.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Wow, she was.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Removed from Adam's care, and after about eight weeks she
made almost a full recovery. She regained our mental faculties
and was well enough to go out and do her
own shopping. There was a rare case of Adam's victim surviving.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
She was now addicted to morphine.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Yes, she was special. After years of rumors and Adams
having been mentioned in at least one hundred and thirty
two wills of his patients, twenty four July nineteen fifty six,
Eastbourne Police received an anonymous call about a death. It
was from Leslie Henson, the music hall performer, whose friend
(09:05):
Gertrude or Gertrude pillet And had died unexpectedly while being
treated by Adams only twenty five to July nineteen fifty six,
the day missus Wilt died, the Eastbourne Coroner notified Walker
that from his postmottemn her death did not appear to
be natural. Police began taking statements from individuals who had
(09:30):
been in contact with her shortly before her death, many
of whom believed that she had committed suicide. Oh one
of our friends, who was also our executor, provided three
letters she had written in April nineteen fifty six and
had placed with her will which indicated that she had
(09:51):
contemplated suicide. Then a second post mortem conducted by a
Home Office pathologist concluded that the cause of her our
death was barbituarate poisoning.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Arbituate poisoning yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
After the second post Bartom investigation was taken over from
Eastbourne Police on seventeen for August nineteen fifty six by
two officers from the Metropolitan Police's Mother Squad. Met the
senior officer, Detective Superintendent Herbert hann Annham of Scotland Yard,
was known for having secured a conviction in the Teddington
(10:26):
Towpath Mothers in nineteen fifty three. Although he Defense Council
Peter Rowlinson called into question Hannam's evidence of how the
confession was obtained in view of the opinion, Hannam was
later expressed but detectives must sometimes ignore the law as
methods are open to question. He was assisted by Detective
(10:50):
Servant Charles Hewitt. Annham was in the unusual position that
instead of having to find a suspect for an own crime,
he had an own suspect in Adams, but needed to
link Kim to the most serious crimes and forging prescription,
making false statements, and mishandling drugs definitely suggested that Hannam
became fixated an idea that Adams had murdered many elderly patients,
(11:13):
but legacy regarding his receiving a legacy as grounds for suspicion.
Although Adams was generally only a minor beneficiary, investigators decided
to focus on cases from nineteen forty seven to nineteen
fifty seven. Of the three hundred and ten death certificates
examined by Home Office patfoliogist Francis Camps, one hundred and
(11:36):
sixty three were considered by Camps to be worthy of
further investigation. This was because, firstly, a very high proportion
some forty two percent of all three hundred and ten
of Adam's deceased patients were diagnosed as having died of
cerebro thrombosis or cerebro hemorrhage, against an average near late
(11:59):
ninety fifties of around fifteen percent for the elderly right
now bedridden patients and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Secondly, one hundred and sixty three certificate is related to
Adams patients that die well in a coma which could
be suggestive of the administration of our cody or barbiturate,
as well as the cause stated. The police took numerous
statements from nusses who had treated Adam's patient and their relatives.
Some are generally favorable to him, but others claimed Adams
(12:29):
had given patients special injections of substances that were unknown
to the nurses, in which Adams refused to disclose to them. Basically,
he's doing things his way and he knows how much
will kill. Yeah, you know what I mean. That's usually
I think the hospitals let nusses give patients medications of
(12:49):
paying kills.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, it's still prescribed by a doctor, but the nurses
are allowed to give it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
He's basically just taking controller making them obsolete.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
The statements were also claimed that his habit was to
ask the nuss to leave the room oh scoopy before
injections were given, and that he would also isolate patients
from the relatives, hindering contact between them. However, several of
the witnesses whom Hannam had questioned verbly refused to give
someone statements to confirm their allegations against Adams. During the trial.
(13:23):
The assertions of missus Morrel that says it did not
know what Adams was injecting or that he did not
give injections in front of him were disproved by the
contact by the contents of their own notebooks. Adams was
first arrested in twenty four for November nineteen fifty six
(13:44):
and thirteen charges including false representation on cremation certificates and
granted Bill was saying he was granted. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
He was arrested down in nineteen for December nineteen fifty
six and charged with the murder of missus Morrel. Went
on of the charges he said, murther or murther, and
you prove it was murther. I didn't think you could
prove it was murther. She was dying in any event,
that was I mean, that was his statement.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
It was good up until the last sentence that kind
of was incriminating.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
But yeah, Anham considered he had collected enough evidence and
at least four of the cases for prosecution to be
warranteed regarding Clara Neil Mother, Julia R. Bradnam, Edith Alice Morrow,
and Gertrude will It all these. Adams was charged on
(14:37):
one count the murther of moral Although it was usual
nineteen fifty six for only one court of murther to
be indicted, evidence of other suspected mother's not being tried
could be given Fredy Deach. Such instance would on its
own facts, be capable of proof beyond reasonable doubt and
(14:57):
strikingly similar to the case try.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
I think we tried to say, yeah, see evidence, I.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Tried to say that word, but they're using quote.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah. It was no no, but yeah, if it's all
the same evidence, then they can't be tried for the
other crimes, or it was not likely to get a conviction.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, yeah, you still use that. You still use something
called more of doctrine, which basically means if you get
out on bail or there's a case suspended against you,
and if you commit a similar a similar offense, yeah,
then you'll be you'll be convicted to one of them.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Oh right, okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
So you're you're going to spend time on one of them.
April nineteen fifty seven, the jury were returned after forty
four minutes to find Adams not guilty.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Adams slipped and fractured his hip for June nineteen eighty
three while shooting in Battle. He was taken to Eastbourne
Hospital but developed a chest infection and in the fourth
of July of left ventric failure. He left an estate
of four hundred and two thousand pounds and bequeest one
(16:09):
thousand to Percy Hoskins. Hoskins gave the money to charity.
Adams had had been receiving legacy legacies until.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
The end, so he was getting money from people until
he died.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
What year did he die? I said, nineteen eighty three,
you know, was it? Yeah, June nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Three, So he carried on like thirty more years after
his trial. Ish, wow, so technically innocent. But he's dead
now and I say guilty, very good, and we're back. Okay,
(16:51):
it's my turn. Murdered by proxy. Mark Alan Hopkinson was
born eighth October in nineteen forty nine in Evanston, which
was located in a valley. Don't think that's important, but
I wrote it down. After high school, Mark accepted a
football scholarship to the University of Arizona. During this time,
he was convicted of delivering controlled substances in nineteen seventy one,
(17:16):
so he was a bit of a drug dealer in UNI,
and shortly after being released from federal prison, he returned
to Bridger Valley in nineteen seventy five. Later that same year,
he became involved in two legal disputes over water rights.
Mark's father had been building a trailer park in nineteen
seventy four and in the process covered a ditch which
(17:39):
was carrying water to a property owned by the Rightses,
who then consulted a local attorney named Vincent Weahar. A
lawsuit was filed against Mark's father and the rights is one.
When Mark arrived, he took over the trailer park project
and sought to have the court's decision reversed on appeal
for his father. In April of nineteen seventy six, Mark
(18:02):
met with the Royses and asked if they could reach
a settlement outside of court and without lawyers being involved.
They refused very smartly, and he threatened to build a
trailer park in a way that would inconvenience them greatly.
I don't know what that means, but it was a
weird way to threaten someone. A month later, Mark went
(18:23):
back and attacked fifty five year old Frank Routs. His
father was also there and he used a hammer to
attack him as well. Afterward, the Rutses spoke to their
lawyer about filing charges, but the county attorney was Jim
Phyllis Phillips, who had been hired by Mark for the
water rights appeal, and he refused to file charges because
(18:45):
he was totally corrupt. So because he was working for
the guy who assaulted the guy, he wasn't going to
file charges. This is what happens in small town. In
nineteen seventy five, Mark's father had arranged for a for
the trailer park to be connected by the Fort Bridgers
Sewer and Waterboard to the sewer system. The initial cost
(19:07):
was one hundred dollars per trailer, but the charges were
increased to three hundred dollars per trailer. The contract was
signed in nineteen seventy six and all the hookups took place.
Mark then announced that he had no intention in paying
the bill at those rates, So after he signed the
contract he was like, Nah, not doing it. They're all connected,
can't do anything to me. Well, Dick, The waterboard were
(19:31):
trying to force Mark to pay, and he in turn
was threatening several board members. The board fouled a lawsuit
through the same lawyers the rights is had used, Vincent Vehar,
and asked in the suit that Mark not only paid
the invoice, but also fifty grand in damages, like you know,
them being scared and stuff and the emotional damage whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
There's a lot of money back then.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, but I think he's threatened a lot of people.
The same year, Mark met Mike Kicky and James Heisel
through his carpenter Jeff Green. The trio, like Jeff and
Mike and James, had been involved in thefts and burglaries
in the area. Mike had also murdered a girl who
had given a statement to police against James. Mark asked
(20:17):
a man named Harold James Taylor to attack the lawyer,
Vincent Vyhart in late nineteen seventy six for two hundred dollars,
but then escalated it to murder for six hundred dollars.
Just not enough, that's not a good rate. James was
paid in December of nineteen seventy six to carry out
the murder, but he changed his mind shortly after that.
(20:39):
In March or April of nineteen seventy seven, Mark also
tried to bribe a former president of the Sewer Board
to give false testimony, but he refused as well. Mark
began planning with Mike how to kill Vincent Veyhard, the lawyer.
He promised to pay him two thousand dollars plus expenses
and to help him cover up the murder of Kelly Wickenho's,
(21:02):
the girl that Mike had murdered previously previous to them
knowing each other. They planned to throw a bomb through
the basement of Vincent's home, and in the early morning
hours of August tenth, nineteen seventy seven, Mike threw a
bomb in a basement window, which detonated at three forty
five am. It destroyed the house and killed Vincent Behar,
(21:22):
his wife Beverly, and their son John. He took out
the whole family. All this guy had to do was
pay his bill, Like it wasn't that much. Mark and
Mike kept their distance from each other after the bombings
to kind of like keep suspicion low, and Mark never
paid the two grand fee to kill the Kui either,
(21:44):
so he didn't even pay that bill of his murder bill.
Mike's friend James was being questioned regarding some thefts, and
as leverage, he told the police about Mike's murder of
Kelly and took police to where her body was buried.
Police tracked down Mike and events was arrested for Kelly's murder. Meanwhile,
in nineteen seventy eight, Mike went to prison for burglary.
(22:06):
So everybody's getting caught. In July that year, during the
murder trial for Kelly, the carpenter Jeff Green broke down
and told the truth about what he knew. They said
Mark and Mike had killed Vincent Behar later recounting Mark's
involvement over fear for his safety. So initially he was like, yeah,
Mark and Mike did this, and then he was like no, no, no, no, no,
(22:27):
it was just Mike. I am in danger because he
was worried that Mark was going to kill him. It
was too late, though, the story had hit newspapers, and
in March of nineteen seventy nine, Mark was put on
trial with Mike for a nineteen seventy seven attempt to
put a bomb in a car. I think the police
were just trying to get him in prison at this
point while they burilt up the murder case. Mark was
(22:47):
convicted and Mike was found not guilty. From prison, Mark
made over one hundred phone calls to allegedly plan the
murder of Jeff Green, the guy who broke and told
the police that he had killed him. On May twentieth,
nineteen seventy nine, Jeff's mutilated body was found two days
(23:07):
before the grand jury's investigation into the Vaihar family's murder.
So I killed the witness as well. Wow, he had
one hundred and forty cigarette burns on him, and then
he had been shot, so he'd obviously been tortured today
and then shot to death. Mike was called to testify
at the grand jury in May of nineteen seventy nine,
where he promptly broke down everybody's breaking down and confessed
(23:30):
to Kelly's murder and the bombing murder of the Vyhars.
In his plea bargain, he turned witness against Mark and
he received twenty one years in prison, and he has
actually served as full prison sentence he's out. Mark was
indicted for the murder of the Vahars and Jeff Green,
and he went to trial on the third of September
nineteen seventy nine. Mark was found guilty and sentenced to death.
(23:54):
Mark claimed his innocence all the way to his execution,
which took place by lethal injection on the twenty second
of January nineteen ninety two. His execution was the first
in Wyoming since nineteen sixty five. And I got this
from murder Pedia and Wikipedia.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Well deserved.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yes it was. Yes, he was. He was naughty, and
we're back. I forgot. I was going to update people
on the fact that our house has now turned into
the friend's house because we have a cafe open downstairs.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yep, in a cafe. If ever get a soul buns,
is it so burns?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, they're called sol buns. These they're so good that
it's like a sweet dough with cream, cheese herb filling inside.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, very addictive, the crack.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I've made best friends with the people. Obviously, I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna name them because I don't want
people to know where we live. But I just I
love them so much.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Anyway, I think we kept the business alive last week.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think we might have Yeah, and then I went
on a diet, so now I can't have any which
is very sad. Okay, so conclusion do you? I mean,
I don't even know why I'm act asking this. I
know what we'll both say. Do you want to be
injected with morphine heroines?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Please?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yes? Please? Or would you like to be how did
my people die again?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yeah, blown up or shot or tortured, dune.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Shot the morphine.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
I would take the morphine. I would take the morphine.
And if I wasn't, like with a killer, I just
feel like, yes, please, doctor, please inject me.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
The last time I had morphine, I got really bad tummache.
So now I'm I'm kind of sad about that.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
Yeah, trying to figure out how you got how did
he get them? Mere saying over the wils, obviously he done.
I'm just because for me, I just just want them.
It wasn't a lot more made of made of the
folgery of the wives and stuff.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I personally think it should be illegal to leave your
doctor anything your personal doctor. I think it should be
illegal to leave them anything in your will. It's just
it's too much of a conflict of interest. I think
if you're going to leave it to like the Cancer
Society or the Heart Foundation, that's great, But I mean
I wouldn't leave money to my doctor.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I guess things were different.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Better, I suppose, But so that's a lot of people
choosing to leave their doctors' money, and I just don't
see that being right.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it's obviously set out. They knew what he was doing,
they knew yeah, where he wanted to be. I mean
he's set up shot, you know, in a place where
people had money.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I don't think also that he was an angel of
death because I don't think it was like doing it
to put people out of their misery. I think he
was doing it for.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
The money, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Or maybe it was just like a bone.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, it was personal gain. It
was definitely a selfish thing. He was doing it for totally,
and thirty two patients left their wills to him.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot of people. So, yeah, we
are going to go with drug injections. Please dead or alive,
I'll take it.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah, live again.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, it's stripped off into a nice sleep. All right. Well,
thanks for joining us everyone on our first episode, obviously,
we will get into the groove with my lovely new
co host Gary. Do you want to be called Gary
or Gaz?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
I don't mind, just whatever you want to call me.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I can't call you. I can't call you Gazz because
I find it strange, but other people can call you gaz.
I mean it's people can call you whatever they want
as long as it's nice. We will be back next week.
Please give us a five star review if you feel
so inclined on our wherever you're listening, I don't even
know where people listen anymore, and keep chatting. We have
(27:50):
a Facebook group chat, we have Instagram. We are on Twitter,
although I never use it, so good luck with that.
We're also on TikTok and I know we use that either,
so maybe Instagram. Maybe find me on Instagram. That's probably
the easiest way to do it. And we will be
back next week.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Which Murderer is hosted by Speaker and is recorded in
a secret location in Scotland. You can find us wherever
you listen to your podcasts. Email us at which Murderer
at gmail dot com or visit our website at which
murderer dot com. We are also on Instagram, Reddit and Twitter.
Just look for the app which Murderer account or hashtag.
(28:33):
You can join the debate on our Facebook page and
group interacting with on our listeners or the which Murderer team.
Our theme music is kill Me Again by bluebend Our
artwork was produced by wild Creations at fiver dot com.
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