The Art of Intimacy: Barbara Nitke on Photography, Passion, and Human Connection

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Barbara Nikki and I'm a photographer.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Art the podcast where we get
up close and personal as we get to know women
from around the world of visual arts. I'm Chris Stafford
and this is season three, episode nineteen. My guest this
week is the American photographer Barbara Nikki, whose life has

(00:28):
taken her from hardcore porn sets, to the BDSM world,
and to the fashion world. As her art evolves, she's
as ambitious as ever, expanding her many talents to currently
producing her own movie, American Ecstasy, which is projected to
begin filming in twenty twenty six. As a vibrant septugenarian,

(00:48):
Barbara has widened her aperture across her career that began
in the porn theaters of the eighties, where she was
tasked to screen more than one hundred films, to the
high art out of the fashion industry in the reality
TV show Project Runway, which she shot for eighteen seasons.
Barbara was born in Lynchburg, Virginia, in nineteen fifty, the

(01:11):
eldest of three children to Eloise Vicki Smiley Gregory, a
meteorologist who worked for thirty years at the National Weather
Service and Paul Gervat's Gregory Junior, a World War II
veteran and air traffic controller. Barbara has a younger brother,
Gary Gregory, who's a software developer, and her sister, Mary

(01:32):
Jane Gregory, who's a glass artist. She describes her childhood
as unhappy and rebellious, constantly seeking her own independence. It
was nineteen sixty seven before her father disclosed an earlier
marriage to the family, and in nineteen eighty seven she
discovered that the author and sex researcher Share Height was

(01:54):
her half sister. Barbara's family moved across the country when
she was a child, from Virginia to Alaska, which meant
she attended a variety of schools. But for college, Barbara
made her way to New York to study business, literature
and writing at Barok College and then photography at the
International Center for Photography and School of Visual Arts. In

(02:19):
her late twenties, she started photographing professionally, and in nineteen
eighty two, she says she found her subject on a
pawn set when she was given full access to be creative.
Her first marriage to Herbnik Geek, lasted thirteen years and
gave her opportunities to develop her photographic skills in an

(02:40):
unlikely world. Among her many credits are Hustlers twenty nineteen,
Monsterland twenty twenty, The Equalizer twenty twenty one, The Gilded
Age in twenty twenty three, Smile In twenty twenty four,
and Project Runway, of which she shot two hundred and
twenty five five episodes from two thousand and four to

(03:02):
twenty twenty one. Barbara's work has been exhibited internationally at
venues including Storage APT, New York, the Hartner Gallery at
University of Rochester, One Eyed Jack's Gallery in Brighton, England,
and Barristers in New Orleans. She's included in the permanent

(03:23):
collections of the Kinsey Institute, the Finnish Museum of Photography,
the Leslie Lohman Museum, and others. Her images have been
the subject of articles in numerous venues, including Office Magazine, Forbes, Dazed, Slate, Wece,
Harper's Magazine, and The New York Times. Barbara is married

(03:44):
to Kenneth Wyburn, an Army veteran, and the couple divide
their time between New York City and Ohio. Barbara, Welcome
to the podcast. I understand this is your debut on
a podcast. So I feel honored to be the first
host for you on the podcast Welcome. How does it feel?
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (04:04):
I'm a nervous rack, Chris.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
No, you can't be. You know. This is just you
and I sitting by the fire, having an adult beverage
and talking about your life and career.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
I love that. I love the fireside chat. Idea. That's great.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
You like that. I like it? You know, looking at
your career, Barbara, where do I start? There is so
much there, Barbara, You've had such an interesting career. Do
you pinch yourself sometimes when you think back of what
you've achieved? I do.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Actually, I feel so fortunate to have had the life
I've had so far, and I have a good twenty
thirty more years to go, and yeah, I just hope
it keeps on being as interesting as it's been.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Do you have a bucket list now? Even you know
at this point in your career? WHI shall we say
you're three courses of away through your career? Would that
be fair? That would be fair.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I'm seventy four, I'm planning to live to be one hundred,
So yeah, my bucket list? Bucket list? That's hard. I well,
I want to produce a movie, so certainly that's on
my bucket list. And I want to I want to

(05:25):
place my body of artworks somewhere, and I've got, you know,
a long time left to do it in. But yeah, like, yeah,
i'd like that, and I'd like to live in a
country that I can respect. That's very high up on
my bucket list right now.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Because right now you're commuting. You told me between New
York and Ohio. That's a little hop and a skip.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Well, yeah, I'm commuting between New York and Ohio because
my husband lives in Ohio and I live in New
York and Harlem. But I mean, the the situation of
the world. I'm just disturbed about this country, America at
the moment.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
So do you see yourself living in another country? I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
I'm seriously thinking about it, but it's not that easy
to do either.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
How much of your time is working now compared to
what it was, say, twenty years ago.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Wow, that is a good question. You know. I have
freelanced really all my life, and as a freelancer you
kind of go up and down. Twenty years ago, I
was really focused all the time on doing my artwork

(06:46):
and not a lot on paying the rent type of work.
So one of my challenges back then was to try
to get that imbalance, but I was in one way
or another, working all the time. Over the years, the
balance changed to where I had to really think about
paying the rent and getting out of debt, which I did,

(07:09):
so that changed the balance. But let's see, God, I
work all the time the last couple of years. I
got married two years ago to the most beautiful man
in the world, and I'm working less. I'm working less now,
which is great, but I'm not ready by any means

(07:30):
to retire. Ken is retired. I'm trying to work all
the time, so I guess that's the current balancing act.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
I want to talk about what's on your to do list, Barbara,
before we go back and look at your past achievements
and the journey that you took, which is colorful to
say the least, and there'll be lots. I didn't talk
about that, but let's talk about what you want to
do now, because I think we are in the present.

(08:00):
You know, you seem to have a lot on your
to do list, but some really important goals too. In
the world of finance, you want to write this movie,
you know, want to write the script yourself. Having a
background in film production as well, I'm sure helps you.
But how do you see yourself carving that out as
a producer director? DP Explain what that project is first

(08:24):
of all, and then how you see your role evolving
in it?

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Well, when COVID happened, So what do we wit? Is
that five years ago? I think? So five years ago,
I had just gotten this idea from a friend of
mine at HBO to write the script for a for
a television show, for like a series, because HBO had

(08:51):
produced The Deuce, and I spent a lot of time
in the adult film industry as a photographer and Mary
to a producer also, so I know that world. And
my friend Christy and I thought, yeah, like a natural
to write a pilot script and you know, I'll just

(09:13):
sell it an HBO, wh'll produce it. How hard will
that be? So it took me, I don't know, years
and years of rewriting to finally get the pilot to
where I wanted it. And now, as of about a
year ago, I realized the television industry had changed while
I was working on this thing. So I've shifted I

(09:35):
shifted about a year ago to make Now I want
to make a feature film out of that same material.
I have a finished script. I have a very interesting
director from Europe who I'm working with, and we're thinking
about making it as a very low budget film where

(09:57):
we could have a lot of control over it. Ideally,
I mean, I've written the script, but I'd like to
produce and have him direct. But none of that is
finalized yet, so you know, we're hopefully we'll be able
to pull it off. It would I would just love
to be able to pull this off. It would be
so great.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Why does it mean so much to you? What's so
special about this boy?

Speaker 1 (10:21):
I wish I knew Chris because in nineteen eighty two,
I mean, I know, we're going to tell the whole story,
But in nineteen eighty two, I found a subject that
I was really interested in and that was going to
start my career in my opinion. I was working on

(10:43):
a porn set and I was in the makeup room
of Nasty Girls, and I had full access to everybody.
I was just back there, you know, part of the crew,
with my camera, and it just hit me all at once,
Oh my god, this is my subject. I have found
my subject, and all these years later, so what is

(11:05):
this forty years later, I still haven't completed that journey
with that subject. And I don't know. I feel like
there's a statement that I'm supposed to make. I don't
want to make it sound too metaphysical, but I just
feel like there's a story I'm supposed to tell. I'm

(11:28):
still trying to tell it. So yeah, it just means
a lot to me.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
I did read somewhere that your focus has always remained
consistent in that you always intend to have an intimate
connection with your subject matter, and given your choice, where
you feel you identify the most in the world of
ad or porn. I'm wondering what that connection mean. Why

(11:54):
did it resonate so strongly with you and you became
so passionate about that subject, you know, maybe being a
voice for those that otherwise couldn't put a voice to
what they were doing.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I don't know. I wish I knew thirty years of
therapy and I cannot answer that question. I don't know.
I just that's my subject. I read a book years
ago called Dispatches, was written by Michael Hare, and he
was twenty six when he wrote the book, and the

(12:28):
book was a source material for the movie Apocalypse Now
as it turned out. But Michael Hare talked about what
it was like in a very raw way. The book
kind of very rough and raw written. He talked about
what it was like being there with the soldiers as
a war correspondent in Vietnam. I related to it. I

(12:52):
read that book. I don't know how many times because
that was my I just related to it, like that's
who I am in the porn world. But I don't
want to overstate my case, you know, yeah, I don't know.
I just like he Like one of the things that
Michael Harris said was he said, well, here, you know,

(13:14):
he's with all I forget the exact wording, but he's
with all these soldiers. They're in a battlefield. He's like, well,
they know why they're here. They're here to kill people.
That is why they're here. They're they got drafted, they're here.
Their job is to kill people. But what am I
doing here? I'm writing about it? Like, you know, like

(13:34):
he knew he was part of it, Like he wasn't
killing anybody, but he was just as much a part
of it, and that that was his role. And I
wish I could say it as well as he did,
but that always resonated with me, and I feel, yeah,
that's that kind of empathy with my subject. I have

(13:57):
to feel that or I don't want to be there.
I feel on less it's like less pronounced. Let's say,
if I'm on a film set or doing a portrait
shoot or something. It's not as doesn't resonate as deeply,
but I'm still very much relating to the person in
front of the camera.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
And you said that you want to erase those boundaries
between these sex workers, porn stars, and these people that
have become your subjects through life. Yeah, and show a
deeper connection with them, to humanize them in some way.
Do you feel that you have kind of a responsibility
because you're the one holding the camera.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yes, I think that there's an enormous responsibility there. Yes,
I realize that really early on. A lot of it
is in the edit, Chris. And again, I'm sure you
know this, but as a photographer, you know, you shoot
a bunch of pictures of someone, of a scene, of

(15:01):
whatever it is, the image that you chose. You can
choose different ways of what you're going to show, And
I think there's a huge responsibility there. I mean, yeah,
part of it is when you're framing it. Part of
it is in the framing before you take the picture.
Part of it is in the planning, when you walk

(15:23):
in and say you're going to have a point of
view of what you want to shoot. You know, that's
part of it. And you can choose not to shoot
a certain picture, whether to shoot it, whether to push
the shutter or not. But in the end, when you
look in the edit, that's when it always hits me.
It's God, I could make this person look really ugly,

(15:45):
or I can make them look great, you know, And
I always want to make people look great. Yeah. I
don't feel a huge separation between different people. I find
different people fascinating. I love meeting different people, you know.
So yeah, I guess I want to show that I
think sex work is really important in our society, and

(16:09):
I don't think we give it the credit that it deserves,
or certainly we don't give it the people who do
it any credit. Yeah, I'd like to write that wrong.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
How much editorial control do you have? What do you
insist on having when you're on a shoot.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Well, on my shoots, I have the control.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah that's for a still set, right, not a film set. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Well, if I'm hired to work on a film set,
I don't even own those pictures, so I get you know,
there's a difference. Like if I get hired to work
on Project Runway, which you know I worked on for years,
producers own that work and then they have the control.
So I do have to be more careful what I shoot.

(16:58):
If it's one of my shoots, I know I'm the
one that's going to edit at the end. But what
I've always done is I let the people i'm photographing
for my own artwork, my own shoots. I always have
them look at the pictures, and I will not use
anything that they don't like, even though they've signed a

(17:18):
model release and I could use it, I don't. I mean,
I don't want that energy on it, you know, I
want them to like the picture that I'm using.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Let's go back and start this journey where you began.
You were born in Lynchburg, Virginia in nineteen fifty. Your parents, interestingly,
your mother was a meteorologist, Eluise, and your father, Paul,
World War two vet and their traffic controller. I'd imagine
that was a very compatible marriage, because you know, they

(17:50):
affect professions, complimented one another.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Oh my god, so funny you said that they were
the least compacitive.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
I mean they couldn't chalk about the weather in this line.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
Oh, oh my god, that's hysterical. You know what, You're
right on the surface, it sounds like they'd be. They
met after World War Two at the airport in Lynchburg.
My dad had just gotten back from the war and
he had been trained as an air traffic controller there.
But he was from the Midwest and he landed up

(18:25):
in Lynchburg, Virginia. For some reason, he hated Southerners. He
always thought that they were completely it's the word I
want to say. I can't think of the word, but
you know, like they don't say what they mean. It's manners,
you know, but Southern manners. So but anyway, my dad
was actually was an alcoholic and I think that he

(18:49):
suffered from PTSD. But you know, world War two, like
people didn't know that, which is kind of sad. My
dad had been in Normandy actually, so he had really
witnessed a lot of horrible stuff in World War Two
and came back and no way to deal with it,
and so he was an alcoholic. My mother didn't know

(19:11):
how to really handle that. They fought all the time.
I actually have to say, though, she pretty much held
the family together. She had been a meteorologist and she
quit work to have three kids, and then she went
back to work, so she did thirty years total. So
I had a working mom, and I think that was

(19:33):
a good role model. It was difficult because they were
so badly matched. Look, she probably only had one choice,
which was to leave because of his alcoholism, and she
couldn't do that because she was a good Southern girl
and it would be shameful if she got divorced and
she would have to go home to her family in disgrace,

(19:54):
so she stayed in the marriage.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
I think it was a.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
Formative thing for me because I think I was the
oldest and both parents confided in me, and I think
that taught me empathy or how to see both sides
of a situation. But they were just so unhappy, and
I think that weighed on me, you know, as a kid.

(20:19):
But you know what, You're right though, because when you think, oh,
an airport romance. They met at the airport, it does
sound pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
What was your relationship like with either of them.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
I was close to both of them. I had a
weird role in the family. I guess I helped my
mom out a lot around the house because you know,
she was working and raising kids and having an alcoholic father.
But then my father would be morose and have no
one to talk to, so I would sit and talk

(20:54):
to him. So I was close to both of them
in a way. And I had this family role of
being like the caretaker because I was the oldest. But
I was also very rebellious and I was very unhappy,
so and I probably wanted more independence at a younger

(21:15):
age than they than my mother thought I should have,
so that caused a lot of fights. So yeah, I
had a weird role in the family, and I left
as soon as I got out of high school. I
moved out. But later in life I was very close
to my mom, so I guess things come full circle.
My dad died when I just after I moved out.

(21:38):
Actually he died. He had a cerebral hemorrhage, no doubt
from the alcohol, I would guess, but yeah, he died
very suddenly.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
How about grandparents, did you have a relationship with any
of them.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
No, because we moved around a lot. So my dad
was not close to his family in Missouri at all,
and we had moved away from Lynchburg, where my mother
had a huge family. So yeah, no, no grandparents.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
And as you say, you did move around quite a lot.
You went from Virginia to Alaska. And was that because
of your father's work.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, when you're an air traffic control operator, it's very
similar to like an army army background. The way that
they get promoted is by they bid on jobs in
other cities. So we went. I was born in Lynchburg.
Then we moved to Binghamton, New York, where my brother

(22:43):
was born. Then we went to Norfolk, Virginia, where my
sister was born. And then we went to Anchorage, Alaska,
and then King sam in Alaska. And then when I
was going into eleventh grade, we moved back to Virginia.
We moved to Arlington. I actually went from a high school.
My high school in Alaska had thirty people in it,

(23:06):
and that was from ninth to twelfth grade, thirty people total.
I went to. Then I went to Wakefield High School
in Arlington, Virginia with three thousand people. It was culture
shocked totally.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
How did you cope with that? It could be overwhelming?
How did you cope?

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Well? It was, Yeah, it was. But I think all
the moving around that we had done probably helped me.
I mean, I think I'm pretty adaptable because of all
that moving around. But in Alaska, in my high school
there with the thirty people, so you were like you

(23:49):
knew everybody, you know, And then to go to three thousand,
I was I kind of I didn't know anybody, you know.
But when I was in Alaska, the high school there,
I was a cheerleader, believe it or not, because if
you were there were thirty people. So if you were
a girl, you were a cheerleader. If you were a guy,

(24:12):
you were on the basketball team. And our basketball team
was the worst in the league, and we traveled to
play other schools and the way we got there was
by airplane. I don't know if you know much about Alaska,
but the only really the only way you get around
is by little airplanes. They're like taxi cabs. So so

(24:37):
we would fly to these different towns to play the
other team, the basketball team, and we were the worst
because our school, we didn't have a gymnasium, we had,
like our basketball court was outdoors and it was only
like half size, and you're in Alaska in the winter, right,

(24:59):
so the guys didn't get much of a chance to practice.
But we had so much fun going to all these
towns and you know, hanging out with the kids there,
and you know, we would get caught smoking and everything,
and it was a blast. So you know, that was
a world that I knew and loved. So yeah, going

(25:20):
suddenly going to a big city like Arlington, that was
a big deal. But I obviously adapted because I landed
up in New York.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
Toughened you up.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
I think it did. I think all of it did.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, what kind of a student were you, Bobra?

Speaker 1 (25:39):
I was a good student. School came easy to me.
I got pretty much as and b's I think I
didn't have to work hard at it.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Did you have a disciplined home life? I wondered if
that how helped in school. Were you a very disciplined child?

Speaker 1 (25:58):
No, well, I was given a lot of responsibility very young,
so maybe I don't know. I can get things done,
like if I know there's a test tomorrow, I can cramp.
I'll you know, back then, I would cramp for it
and do it. I didn't consider myself a scholar in
any way. It's just that I didn't have plans to

(26:21):
go to college or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
What subjects were you interested in?

Speaker 1 (26:27):
The boy asks a good question. I don't even know
what subjects was I interested in. I don't know. I
liked reading a lot. When I was a kid, I
read a lot, so I probably liked English. Probably, I
know I liked to read a lot. I was very
much when I was a kid, I was very much

(26:48):
into being independent and making my own money. So I
had after school jobs from the age of twelve on.
Like when I was twelve, I did a lot of babysitting,
and then I got a job like after school in summers.
I was like a housekeeper for these people. They had
a young couple that had three kids, and they had

(27:10):
an airplane, you know, airplane company, so they were pretty overwhelmed,
and I had all kinds of after school jobs. I
think I was more interested than that in, you know,
making money after school that I was in the school.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
To be honest, were you then, as the oldest of
the three, were you very involved with your brother and sister.
Did you hang out together or were you too independent
and wanted to go your own way. How did you
integrate and how did they regard you?

Speaker 1 (27:47):
I wish we had been closer as kids. We were not.
I wish we had been. I think they regarded me
as bossy, you know, whre's the role of the oldest
I know. And I think to this day they blame
me for all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
I wish we had. It'd be nice if we had
been closer. That is a regret. I'm sorry that we
weren't closer.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah, Interestingly, you had an older half sister, Yes, the
same dad to someone who for those listeners who have
a long memory may have heard of share Height who
was the author and sexu research of the height report.
Now I remember that, do you? I do? So that

(28:35):
resonated with me when I read that, and so I'm
wondering where she fitted into your life in the sibling clan.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
You know, we didn't know about her. It was a
major blow up within the family. I think it was
after we moved back to Arlington, So I would have
been around fifteen sixteen when my mother found my was
shared tracked down my father. He had abandoned her, to

(29:03):
be honest, and he didn't tell my mother he had
been married before, and that was just a huge, huge
blow up in the family and my father. I remember
he wanted to go and see Share and then my
mother was really against it and he ended up not going,

(29:23):
which was awful. So I never knew who she was.
I just knew there was someone who existed, who was
a girl that he had had from an earlier marriage.
I found out in nineteen eighty seven there was an
article in Newsweek magazine about Shares. I think it was
her third book, and I knew the Heighth Report, of course,

(29:45):
you know, and so she had come out with the
new book, and I bought the Newsweek magazine and I
was reading the article, and in that book, Shares research
showed that seventy percent of American women were cheating on
their husbands. Yes, he went over like a lead balloon.

(30:08):
Everyone was very upset. So I was reading the article.
There was a sidebar that said, you know something about
is SHARE's stepfather, Raymond Height, but her real father was
Paul Gregory. And I went, Paul Gregory, you have to
be kidding me, because that's my dad. That was my

(30:29):
maiden name. I could not believe it. And because I
knew I had this half sister who was, you know, older,
I was able to do this. I called Newsweek magazine.
They put me in touch somehow with the writer of
that article, and that writer, I guess, I forget how
contacted cher I guess to see if she would talk

(30:50):
to me or whatever. And we had a wonderful conversation.
And then Cheryl left the country right after that, and
then I didn't see her again until twenty ten. I
think maybe I saw her a couple of times in London.
She had moved over there, and I was in London
a couple of times for work, and I was able

(31:11):
to get together with her, and it was just delightful.
It's I you know, I mean, there's just so much
to say there, and I can't believe how forgotten she is.
It's wrong. They made a movie about her, called The
Disappearance of share Height. That was a documentary that premiered

(31:31):
at Sundance a couple of years ago.

Speaker 2 (31:34):
Of course, that nuance is not something that would be
unnoticed by those who are paying attention to this. That
she was a sex researcher and you worked in the
porn industry.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
I know, I gotta be my dad's side of the.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Gotta be definitely on that side of the family. It's interesting.
I mean that I would imagine to some interesting conversations
at dinner with her, wouldn't it it did?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
I mean, we really had a delightful time getting together. Yeah,
because you know, we talked about we both talked about
our work and the fact that we both do the
work we do. So when I met cher was she
had was six she had I thought it was Parkinson's
at the time, but it was actually a neurological disorder

(32:26):
that eventually killed her. She died I think four years ago,
maybe five. But I met her for the first time
in person in this in a restaurant in London, and
I had been told that she had Parkinson's. So I
was in the restaurant and in walks this woman still
looking glamorous with flanked by three guys who are practically

(32:50):
carrying her in the restaurant and clearly, I mean, they
all just loved her. It was amazing. They just were
adoring and I always called them the share Entouragh. She
had her husband, Paul, who's a lovely guy. Her ex
lover Paolo, another lovely guy, and then this guy Bill

(33:15):
who was writing her biography I guess at the time,
and I got together with them a couple of times
without Share too, and they're just all lovely. But yeah,
I wish I had known Shares as we were growing up.
That would have been really nice.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Did your siblings feel the same way toward her? Were
you all getting closer to her when you could.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
My sister definitely, My brother not at all, just never
wanted anything to do with her. I'm not sure why.
My brother's very conservative. My sister's an artist and she
lives in Finland, and I think, I guess more open minded,
but also maybe just because we're all the girls, you know.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, girls stuck together. I'm glad you mentioned Mary Jane
or Jane as you call her, because you say she
was a glass artist. So where did that come from?
If in in terms of the family's artistic bent, so
to speak.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
No idea, Chris, no clue. I don't think there are
any artists in the family outside of me and Janey. Yeah,
I don't know. I mean, although my mother was always
very creative, she was always redecorating the house and everything,
so maybe maybe just nobody in our line was encouraged

(34:40):
in that direction. I don't know. My brother is kind
of a scientist, which I think is a bit related
to art too. He's a computer scientist.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
Interestingly, your sister is a glass artist and you've broken
glass ceilings all your life.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
That's great. I have to share that with or she'll
love that.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
When did you first pick up a camera?

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Though?

Speaker 2 (35:05):
I'm interested in how influential your parents may or may
not have been in terms of steering you towards your
career choice.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Well, I never knew who I was in the world
when I was a kid. I just had no idea
of my identity at all. But as a young adult,
I wanted to be a writer, and I took a
lot of writing classes. I thought I was going to
tell interesting stories about all the fascinating people that I

(35:35):
was surrounded by as I married a man. When I
was twenty, I hooked up with a guy who was
fifty five and his name was Herb Nicky, and he
was like a gambler, promoter, hustler kind of a guy.

(35:56):
And so we were surrounded by all of these amazing people,
I mean, really colorful people, and I wanted to write
about them. I wanted to write short stories. So I
was seeking all these writing classes. And I do not
like the process of writing at all. I hate sitting
in front of a frigging piece of paper. And somehow

(36:19):
I picked up a camera. I don't know how, somebody
gave me one or lent me one or something, and
it was just love immediately, you know. But I was like,
I was in my late twenties by then, and I
think and then I just started, you know, really studying
photography because I realized that's where I wanted to be.

(36:41):
But I think it's the same. It's the idea of storytelling,
I guess, or fascination with people or both.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
You went to the International School of Photography in New
York and the School of Visual Arts as well. I
did What year would that have been, and was that
when you decided the photography was the path to take.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
Yeah, there would have been the late seventies. Yeah, the
late seventies, and then in nineteen eighty. In nineteen eighty,
my husband at the time, Herb Nicky, was making a
horror movie. There's a little story to that, but he

(37:30):
was making a horror movie called The Prowler, and I
was stuck in Cape May, New Jersey for six weeks
while they were shooting that movie because I was there
with him and I had my camera. So I was
hanging out on the set with the director's wife, she
and I.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
She was a.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Photographer, and we were hanging out and I had my
camera and we were taking pictures, and I thought, this
is fine. I like this. So then there would be eighties.
So around probably eighty one or so, oh was when
I really started to get more serious. And then in
nineteen eighty two, Herb decided to make a movie called

(38:12):
Devilo Miss Jones Part Two. And I should backtrack to
say that he made Devilomist Jones the original, which was
a very famous porn movie. He made that in seventy
three and made a lot of money and then gambled
all that money away, and then so he gambled all

(38:32):
that money away, and then in around seventy nine, a
guy named Sean Cunningham came over to the house and said, oh,
I want to make a horror movie. You should finance it.
And Herb could have raised the money to do it,
but he chose not to, and that movie was Friday
the thirteenth, which he turned down. So there's this whole

(38:59):
checker in his there. But anyway, so then he decided
to make Devilomus Jones Part two and come back, and
he was coming back into the porn business with that movie,
and I ended up I worked on the script of
that movie with the writers because I had studied writing.

(39:20):
And then I got the stills job on that set
of Develomus Jones Part two, And it wasn't really that film.
It was the second film, Nasty Girls, that the same director.
I did a pretty good job on Devilomus Jones Part two,
as still's so that director liked my work and liked

(39:42):
my attitude on the set, I guess, so he hired
me to work on his next movie, which was Nasty Girls.
And that's the one when I, as I said, I
really discovered my subject there. So yeah, that's how it happened.
And I think that was probably really when I just

(40:06):
started working my ass off to be the best photographer
I could be, because I had found myself, Chris, you know,
I mean, after like a decade of I don't know
who I am and stumbling around and being interested in
different things, I took French lessons, I played tennis, I
did all kinds. You know, it was just I couldn't

(40:26):
find myself. So when I found my subject and I
had the camera, that's when I really got serious and
I really wanted to be the best photographer that I
ever could be.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
With that, of course, not only comes the responsibility when
you're behind the camera, but it also needs the trust
of the subjects too, so it becomes a partnership. In
order for it to really make it work for everybody,
there must have been a magical connection in some way
for you, because this is not a subject that everyone

(41:00):
would be drawn to. Let's be honest about this, Barbara.
You know, not everybody's listening to this thinking, oh, I
want to be a porn photographer. You know, not everybody
wants to look at that. I mean, we've all seen
porn movies, but not everybody wants to look at that
as their subject matter when they go to work, right. Yeah,

(41:21):
but you saw past that, and I can kind of
understand it because when I'm behind a camera where the
befohone cameras doom, I can be in places that I
otherwise wouldn't be comfortable with, like I'm afraid of heights,
but if I'm behind a camera or on a joke
or something, I'm okay, I can see past. I mean,
I'm so focused, like you know, I know you are

(41:43):
as a photographer. You're so focused. You're just looking through
the lens, right, You're just framing something.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Well, that's true, that's true.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
It becomes like a little world of its own. It's
only between you and the camera lens and doing the
job right, and you're focused on it's it becomes very intimate,
no matter what the subject is. But what you're doing
is going into a very intimate world.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Well, yeah, I know, I guess, I guess that does
sound odd.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
It doesn't sound odd to me. Yeah, I mean everyone
listener to themselves here. I think it requires a certain
kind of approach, you know, a mindset to do it
and not be distracted by the fact, Oh, gosh, look
what I'm photographing. No, no, I'm doing my job, you know,

(42:35):
and this is what I relate to in a way
that I can bring out the art of my job,
perhaps like no other. I mean, you're obviously enormously successful,
so something resonated with you. How you got into that
mode and was not intimidated by it.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Well, I think a couple of things. First of all,
I think you're absolutely you know, because you okay, so
you understand that thing that there, that the camera creates
a separation totally. Yeah, And I don't know if everybody
gets that, but it's really true. There is a there's
like it's a protection almost, you know, because you're looking. Yeah,

(43:17):
you're looking. You're not in it, You're looking at it,
you know. But I think part of my goal as
a photographer is to break that down and be in it.
So that's part of the maybe part of the challenge
to me. But as for how I was comfortable with

(43:37):
the subject, I'll backtrack a little. When I was I
had all kinds of jobs as a young adult, and
one of them was I got a job when I
was twenty I guess nineteen. Maybe I had moved to
New York and I got this job at a movie
chain company and the owner was herb who I ended

(44:02):
up marrying, you know, years later. But he went through
all kinds of ups and downs, and in the early
seventies he discovered that he owned all these theaters that
were in downtown cities in upstate New York and nobody
went downtown anymore at that time, you know, everybody had

(44:24):
moved out to the suburbs. So there were all these
big downtown theaters. Herb converted them to porn theaters and
made a ton of money. And I was first working
for him, and then we started dating and then we
were living together. So through that whole period, I was

(44:46):
around the porn world because he was playing porn movies
in his theaters. So he could not stand porn movies.
Chrissy thought they were incredibly stupid, which there was a
case to be made for that, So I would be
the one.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
The irony of that just hit me in the face.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
The iron did that, I know, I know, he just
thought they were really stupid, but they made a lot
of money, so I would be the one that would
get And he had a business partner, Jimmy Bouches, who
was busy doing other stuff usually, so I was the
one that would end up being sent to watch just
pre screen the movies that he was going to exhibit

(45:28):
in the theaters. So I must have seen like a
hundred porn movies before I ever got onto a set,
and I would you know, back then, you know that
was the You had to go into a screening room,
into a theater to watch a movie, so they had
screening rooms, small theaters. So you know, I would go

(45:50):
in to screen the movie for the guys, and I
would bring a magazine to read while screening the movie.
And because they were boring, I'll be honest, I don't
think they were art. But you know, my job was
just is there enough sex scenes? Is there decent production value?
Is the movie really at least an hour long? Can

(46:10):
you hear the sound? You know? Is it minimally acceptable?
So you know, I was kind of desensitized by the
time I ever got on a porn set and in person.
But also because Herb produced the movie Devil and Miss Jones.
He got arrested three times and charged with obscenity, and

(46:33):
I saw what he went through and the mental anguish
and all the expense of the lawyers and just all
of that. Herb's business partner fled to Greece for a
while because he was convinced he was going to jail.
I mean, it was just and really, from my point

(46:54):
of view, it was absurd. Look, these movies are stupid.
If you don't want to watch them, don't go to them,
you know. So I think I was completely desensitized to
the movies themselves, and I guess I also felt that
the government coming down against him was wrong on some

(47:14):
level because I was, you know, married to her. So
when he was making Devil in Miss Jones Part two
and I had taken up photography, I just thought getting
the stills job would be fun. I didn't. I was
over the sex part, like I hope that makes sense,

(47:34):
you know, or I thought I was. I thought I
was over the sex part. First sex scene that I
actually shot it was amazing. I was like, oh my god,
I've seen it. You know, all these movies in my
heart fought on against the in favor of pornography should
be able to exist in my heart, but they're actually

(47:58):
having sex in front of me, you know. So I
did feel that, but I got over it pretty quickly.
And one does, like if anybody that ever worked probably
tell you the same thing. Like the first day it's
like a big deal, and by the second day it's like, yeah,
we're going to work in the Coca cola factory tomorrow.

(48:19):
You know, it just becomes a job.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Is that title porn movie censor on your resume. I
should put that on.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Yes, How how did I not think of that? I
love that.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I'm gonna do that. Not everybody can say that, And
I will say in all my career, Barbara, you are
the first porn censor I have ever interviewed.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yeah, I s what you mean.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Though, Yeah, now I haven't heard this story. It makes
everything else and seem, you know, crystal clear that this
is the path you would take because you you had
the opportunity in the access and success I had.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, I had, Yeah, I had, I had, Yes. But
I guess the distinction is this so the first porn movie,
the you know Devil Miss Jones Part two? I thought, oh,
I'll be a still photographer on the set. That'll be interesting.
I got over the fact that they were actually having sex.
You know. I did my job. I took the pictures.

(49:28):
I did a good job.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
It was the.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
Second one when I was back in the makeup room,
not actually doing the job. When you do stills on
a set, you you're given a list of what they
want you to shoot, you know, or now I know,
but in the beginning they you know, you're given a list,
so you're there to shoot certain things that are to

(49:52):
publicize the movie. What I realized on that set of
Nasty Girls was that I could shoot not what I
is hired to shoot, but I could or I was
going to do that, but I could also shoot really
cool documentary pictures behind the scenes, because what was a

(50:12):
lot more exciting to me was what happened when they
weren't shooting, or what was going on around the shooting.
Like the porn stuff itself, it's you know, it's exciting
for a minute and then it just gets boring, But
what goes on around it is really kind of fascinating

(50:34):
and cool. And I got really interested in the people
and who they are and what their lives are like,
and I related to them in so many ways. And
you know, people would be doing like these really intimate acts,
and then if you took a step back, there's like
this boared crew standing around like smoking or something. You know,

(50:58):
so or you'd say, you know the scene in Clue
where she looks at her watch like you are always
sensing that, or you know, they would have to cut.
They were shooting real film back then, so you'd have
to cut and move in order to move the camera
and put a new magazine in and stuff, so they
would call a cut. You'd be in the middle of
this really hot scene and be cut, cut, we have

(51:21):
to reload, and somebody go, Jesus, what are we having
for lunch today?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Come on?

Speaker 1 (51:26):
You know, and you know, it was just that was
really what became. I think that was more what grabbed
me than doing the actual stills job.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
You know, you talk about this as the Golden Age
of porn, And for those who are not familiar with
the history of porn in our culture, what period of
time do you regard as the golden age of porn?

Speaker 1 (51:54):
That's the early seventies into the mid eighties. It's before video,
but actually it's also the period before the Reagan administration
came along and before the second wave feminists came along.
So it was like there was this period when there

(52:15):
was actually artistic energy going into porn, Like because you're
coming in off of the Sexual Revolution, people were starting
to explore sex as a subject in the seventies in
film like Last Tango in Paris, in the Realm of
the Senses. You know, there were there were a lot

(52:37):
of films being made that were artistic, that were exploring sex,
and I think the porn industry. Okay, they made dumb movies,
but there was also an element of people who were artistic,
and by nineteen eighty there was some serious money going
into those productions, and there were producers who felt that

(53:00):
if you could cross they called it, make a crossover film,
porn film that would play in the general circuit, general
movie circuit like regular movies. If you could make a
film with a lot of sex in it that would
cross over that that would be a great achievement. You'd
make a lot of money, and it would be an

(53:21):
artistic achievement. So there was that kind of energy coming
into the business and that's what got shut down in
the eighties and that ended the golden age of porn.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
And that led you into what you described as the
BDSM world in the nineties. How did that transition come about?

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Hardcore porn industry moved out to LA by I guess
by the end of the eighties they had moved out
to LA and for a lot of reasons, it was
just made more sense for them to be out there.
So I of course had job offers to move out
there myself, but I hate LA I love New York.

(54:04):
I just didn't want to move to La, so I
stayed in New York. And then a couple of years after,
let's say early nineties, the fetish porn started to catch hold.
It started to bubble up out of the underground. And
there had always been like these little mail order houses

(54:24):
that made bds. Well it's called BDSM now, but fetish
porn they called it back then. But they were just
kind of really little companies. And they started to suddenly
grow because the Internet was coming about. People could find
the product, people were buying it, so it became a
bigger industry and I started. I went to work for

(54:47):
Bizarre Video, which was out in Brooklyn at the time,
and I was terrified at first. I was like, oh
my god, these people are going to like there's going
to be whips and chains and it's going to be horrible.
And it wasn't. And so I worked on those fetish
porn porn films quite a bit. And a friend of mine,

(55:10):
a very good friend of mine, Rick Savage. He was
a famous porn star. He also became a director. Rick
fell in love with a woman named Alan who was
into the real sm scene, and so he wanted me
to meet Alan, and they came over one day and
they took me to a meeting at the oil Inepiagel

(55:32):
Society in New York. And because I don't know, Rick
was just all excited about Alan. They was madly in
love and you know, and he thought I'd enjoy getting
to getting to go to this sm place. So I
went and we walked in the door and there's this big,

(55:55):
gorgeous looking black woman, very imposing woman at the door.
She greeted me, and she goes, Barbara Nicky, I'm so
glad you could come. And I was like, wow, this
is like a door opening, you know, like I thought, wow,
this is a moment. And so I went in with
Rick and Allen and met everybody there, and I started

(56:18):
going to their They had regular meetings, and I started
going to their meetings, and I knew this is going
to be my next subject. Again. I'll say I was
already desensitized to the subject matter because I had worked
on a couple of hundred fetish porn movies out a
bizarre video, so you know, I kind of I had

(56:41):
gotten over the fact that it could be scary, and
I just understood it as another thing.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
And where was your marriage your first marriage at this point,
were you still married.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
No, I left her in nineteen eighty three. We had
I outgrew the relationship. I mean we had we were
together for thirteen years, which is pretty good. But I
was thirty three and he was what sixty eight, you know,

(57:16):
looking back, I needed to become my own person. I
needed to leave. So, yeah, I had left and I
was on my own, you know, making a living.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
And then after that I read you went into the
fashion world. So did you decide really to put you know,
to really slam the door in the face of what
you had been doing in the past, born and videosm
and that world. I would say, that world where you
had a reputation for being a very professional and successful photographer.

(57:49):
You had to close that door to due to then
move into the fashion world. How did that come about?

Speaker 1 (57:54):
Oh, not a bit. No, No, I never closed any
doors ever.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
No, No, I was Is that door still open then
you still step back through? Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
I have lifelong friends in all of these worlds. I'm
still in touch with a lot of people from the
hardcore porn world. I'm still in touch with my BDSM friends.
I kind of moved on creatively, but I was in
the I was shooting in the BDSM scene for about
twelve years, ten or twelve years, and then I just

(58:27):
kind of it's like, you know, I just evolved artistically, Chris.
It wasn't like shutting a door. I was just evolving.
I felt with my sexual background, well, there was a
point where I thought I kind of sexed out, like
I had shot like what was their left tantric sex?
But that's how do you shoot tantric sex? Because it's

(58:50):
so inner, so inward I might figure that out one day.
But I had shot everything, and so I was ready
to evolve, and I thought I should go in fashion,
because what is fashion if not sex? Anyway, and I
was a disaster. I did all these great shoots with

(59:12):
I got models together, and my best friend was a
model and an actress. She's amazing, Mara, and she did
a lot of shoots with me, and I got other
fashion models together, and we borrowed clothes from Tom and
Linda Platt, famous clothing designers. They're amazing. But then at
the end of the day, I had this body of

(59:33):
work and I was talking to a photo consultant and
even Tom Platt felt the same way, and they said,
but this isn't fashion. This is art.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (59:44):
So I thought, oh shit, you know okay, And then
after that I did I started. I started a different
body of work. I built a a sleazy motel room
set in my living room in Harlem, and I and
I started creating little narratives, little written little scripts that

(01:00:10):
I would shoot in my sleazy motel room. And a
lot of the people who appeared in those shoots in
the I call it the Luke's Motel were the crew
of Project Runway, which was so much fun. Like I
worked on that show as doing their stills for a
long time, like I don't know, fifteen years worth or so.

(01:00:32):
And I would look around the set and just make
up little stories about like the camera operators and everybody,
and then we would talk about it. We would do
the shoots after work.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
And you met some interesting people on those sets. I
believe you know some other guests have been on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I do yes. And actually Tea who I call Queen
t which is Teresa Vitally. I never did a shoot
with her. She's going to have to come to my
motel room.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
I had listening to you need to get over that,
Tea your neck.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
I did photograph one of Tea's very close friends, which
is Jen Morton, who was an amazing woman, Amazing, amazing.
There's just nothing else to say about Jen, extraordinary person.
I had a blast shooting her and I photographed Gretchen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
Gretchen Watson has also been on the show.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Gretchen Worth in an antique vintage Russian flight suit from
outer space.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
I'm trying to visualize this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
This is one for the Photo Family album. I mention, Yeah,
that's that's great.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Hi. My name is Teresa my Tally and I'm a
cinematographer who was a guest on the Art podcast. But
here's what I need you to do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
You've got a download code and subscribe to the new
Call Time podcasts. It's about women in all departments of
film and television and it's available now on all podcast apps.
And don't forget to follow at the Call Time podcast
on Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
I'll see you there. I also read that you touched
about this on About This earlier. Barbara. I'm going to
quote this from your website. I think it is that
in two thousand and one you filed a lawsuit Nick
versus Ashcroft against the Communications Decency Act, which inhibited free

(01:02:38):
speech on the Internet. This is for artists, for free
speech for artists. And then, in response to Project twenty
twenty five to bring us right up to date, you've
vowed to become part of the resistance against political moves
by the religious right to control our speech and our bodies. Now,
I know that you feel very passionately about these things,

(01:02:59):
and based on a lot of personal experiences too, and
being exposed to that side of the industry for so long.
Talk a little bit about that and why this is
so meaningful you to you now at this point in
your career.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
It's meaningful. It's so meaningful to me now because I
lived through the eighties and you know when the Reagan
administration came in, and I think you know, feminist thought
has evolved over the years, thank god. But the religious
right is so in bed with the Republican Party and

(01:03:35):
they're a huge voting block, and I just saw the
damage that gets done by these people. And I am
the first one that would go out and literally fight
for everyone's right to practice their own religion and don't
get an abortion if you don't want one, and don't
sleep with your same sex if you don't want to,

(01:03:57):
Like I would passionately fight for their right to their
religion and their beliefs. But it drives me nuts that
they want to somehow I hate the word day, but
I don't know how to say it. That the evangelical
Christian right who are very radical, and they I just

(01:04:18):
feel like they want to take over the government and control,
you know, women anymore. I mean there's even a movement
now of women wanting to go back and be traditional wives.
I mean, my god, my mother was one of them.
Drives me nuts, just totally drives me nuts. It drives

(01:04:39):
me nuts that we return to this, you know, after
all the progress, after all, after everything, and now we
came back.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
To this and here we are. I want to ask
you before we close about your interest in passing on
your skills to next generations. I've done the faculty of
the School of Visual Arts since nineteen ninety two. How
much do you enjoy that now and how involved are
you today?

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Oh? My god, I love teaching. I took that job
in ninety two because I was desperate for money, to
be honest, and a friend of mine got me the job.
You know, I never thought I just only did it
for money, and I loved it, and I've been there
ever since the first year I taught freshman, which I

(01:05:30):
couldn't do time wise in freelance, so I switched over
to their Continuing ED department and I've been teaching Continuing
ED there for all these years. I love it. I
love all my students that well, I stay in touch
with them all. I love their energy. I teach different
things over the years, but I and I love when Yeah,

(01:05:51):
I love getting to pass on to the next generation.
That's exactly it, Chris. It's like I love photography. I
love everything has given me, and I want other people
to have that too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
I read somewhere too that you said that you know,
even now today, in twenty twenty five, we haven't come
to terms with the place of sex, work, sexual expression,
and pornography in our culture. Clearly, what you've just said
actually leads to that too. In summary, Barbara, how would

(01:06:25):
you like to be remembered? What's the most important things
that you've done in your career and continue to do?
As you say, there's still a long road ahead. You
feel that you really want to leave a stamp and
a legacy. What does that look like to you? To
be to have the meaning that would justify your career.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
I'd like to humanize the other, which I guess in
the other meaning people that are different. And my world
seems to be the sex world, which I think chose
me rather than I chose it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
But that's okay.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Yeah, I think my stamp is connecting us all and
showing all of our humanity and showing that in the
case of sex workers, that's important work that they do.
You know, if you have a society, if you have
a culture that detegrates sex, of course you're going to
have sex workers. What do you think is going to

(01:07:32):
be the result of that? You know? And if you
have a culture that refuses to do sex education for kids,
you know, where else are they going to learn about it?
I mean we Yeah, So without ranting about that, Yeah,
I think I would like to show the value that

(01:07:53):
people in my world have to the culture. And I'd
like to open minds and I'd like to have people
embrace people who are different and be curious about them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
And we're going to finish where we started talking about
the project that you're working on now, the new movie.
Do you have a time frame for this? Barbara and
a working title.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Yeah, well it's called American Ecstasy. I would really really
would love to shoot it next summer. I hope that
can happen. And it's the movie's about. It follows. It
follows the life of a young woman who has had
a traumatic past, very traumatic past, but she actually finds

(01:08:42):
that she's healing and empowering herself by working as a
porn star. And the film kind of the theme underlying
it is that it really explores the horror that sexual
shaming causes to everyone, and it's also about the value
of found family, which you know, we all a lot

(01:09:04):
of people end up with found families, you know, we
create our own families. So yeah, so that's what the
film's about. And yeah, I hope I can shoot it
next summer. Boy, would that be great?

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Well, the very best of Look, Barbara, that sounds like
a fun project and a very satisfying one, I think.
But by the time you've wrapped that you feel a
certain sense of achievement there because it means so much
to you. Yeah, thank you, good luck with it, and
thank you for taking time to come on the podcast
and share your very very interesting story. I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

(01:09:40):
Thank you, and I hope you have two.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
Chris, You're amazing. You're so easy to talk to. I've
been a nervous wreck, but you have made it fun
and thank you. I really appreciate this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Join us now over on YouTube now because we are
going to continue our conversation over there. But for now,
that's our podcast for this week. And again my thanks
to Barbara Nikay and we really enjoyed this episode. Barbara
and I can't wait for us to continue our conversation
over on YouTube. So let's hop over there. Okay, great,

(01:10:12):
and while you're here, don't forget to slide down the
show notes, where you'll find a link to Barbara's website,
her IMDb profile, and social media. You'll also find a
link to our social media and our email address, so
there's lots of ways that you can reach us here
at the Art Podcast and send any suggestions for guests too.
We'd love to hear from you, and of course we

(01:10:33):
would love it if you would not only subscribe and
download these podcasts, but also share with a friend and
if you get a moment, leave us a five star
rating and review, because that makes us more visible amongst
the thousands and thousands of podcasts out there, and of course,
if you're interested in the film and TV industry, don't
forget to check out our new podcast, Call Time, where

(01:10:55):
you'll find women from all departments. That's call Time on
any podcast app. Meanwhile, my thanks again to my guest
this week, Barbara Nikki, and to you for listening. I'll
be back in two weeks time with another guest from
the world of visual arts, so I do hope you'll
join me then

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