Every journey has an ed point, for the beautiful game in Canada, a professional team is that end point, and for this podcast, this is the finale.Welcome to the last episode of the Women's Soccer Review.Jonathan Tannenwald reunites with Duane Rollins to chat about the Women's game in Canada, the nomination of Breagha Carr-Harris by Canada Soccer, and reminisce on the journey of this show.Thank you very much to Jonathan Tannenwald for his great work and interviews over the last 2 and a half years.Wishing the best to all of you who have listened over the years, thank you!
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Episode Transcript
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The Women's Sucker Review podcast with DwayneRawlins and Jonathan Tannon Walled on the Sports
Podcasting Welcome to the latest episode ofthe Women's Soccer Review here on the Sports
Podcasting Network. This is Jonathan TannonWall to the Philadelphia Inquirer. And you
notice in the intro of the show, how it says Dwayne Rawlins and Jonathan
(00:27):
Tannon Walled. Well, it's beena little while since Dwayne's been on,
so it's time to do something aboutthat, and welcome Dwayne back. John.
I'm good. Yeah, lots goingon in life, but I'm happy
to be back here today and totalk a little bit about some exciting developments.
At least I help so up here. Yeah, yeah. The subject
of this show is going to bean announcement by the Canadian Soccer Association earlier
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this month in May. Yes,it's May. I know it's been a
long time again since we did ourlast show, but here we are in
on May ninth, recording this show, and on May seventh, the Canadian
Soccer Association announced that it has hiredBriaga car Harris. And if I pronounce
that name incorrectly, I'm very sorry, as its head of women's professional soccer.
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Now realize that there was a leaguecalled women's professional soccer back in the
day that is defunct. So they'renot hiring somebody for something defunct, they're
hiring somebody for something in the future. And here we have a quote from
doctor Nick Boggus, the president ofthe Canadian Soccer Association. Now, more
than ever, the women's professional gamedeserves to have its rightful place in this
country. We are very excited towelcome Briaga car Harris to this newly treated
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role which is critical to the advancementof the women's professional game in this country.
Dwayne, there is no professional women'sprofessional game in your country. So
what do we make of this?Well, I Nick bombs the President's YESA.
I've talked to him quite a bitover the years on this subject and
he's always came off his very sincereto me and his desire to to find
(02:00):
a pathway to to really drill downand focus on that on that side of
the game. Um, it's kindof shameful. Not kind of shameful,
it's a lot of shameful that thereis no professional teams in this country.
With all due respect to the sortof semi pro teams are out not one
league below the US League out West, there's a couple of teams. So
with all due respect to them,um that said, it's we still the
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proofs in the putting right, like, we're gonna need to see this thing
play out before I'm willing to givethem full credit here, but it's nice
to see them taking concrete steps thatmay eventually lead lead us to what's long,
long overdue. And you know,how do you expect that to play
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out? Which not quite like it'snot a fair question. I realized,
how do you expect to play out? Because there are a lot of different
ways that it could play out,how it starts, where it ends up.
Obviously, there are a lot ofcalls to have an on WSL team
in Canada, whether it's into HonoreVancouver and why don't we start there,
Dwayne, Which you know is thatdo you think from what you understand,
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is that going to be the firsttarget? I know again having talked to
people at the CSA, they're opento both models, the two models being
the sort of existing model in themen's side, where you have a Canadian
league that's developed eventually, but asyou start with the Leonapo Cell teams.
In this case, they have mostteams in the men's side, of course,
and I tend to lean that way. I think that that's the best
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pathway to success. And I knowthat's going to be something that a lot
of Canadian listeners don't like to hear. But I'm just realistic about the concerns
and the problems that would come tostarting a league up to scratch. I
mean, the camp all the CanadianDemen's League is not exactly tearing and up
attendance wise, and it's well backed, so it's fine, and they have
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the twenty twenty six World Cup tosort of point to and motivate them.
But that said, you know you'restill operating a league there where one man
owns three teams. Um that wouldbe Bob Young who owns Forge Halifax and
part of Pacific, I believe Pacificin aywhere there's a third team involved,
you know, that's a problem.And if you can can't get the investors
on that side, which unfortunately ismore commercially viable in people's minds. In
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people's minds, I stress, butnonetheless that perception is out there, then
it's difficult for me to see howyou'd find enough investment to start a game
premierly got to start. But whatI do think is possible, and when
I think is kind of shameful againthat the that doesn't exist already, it
is to put a team in oneof those markets that has the MLS teams
that they can sort of lean onthat for their for their ticketing. Um,
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I think you could probably get toan easy ten thousand pretty quickly.
In a city like the size I'min. There's at least ten thousand people
that are going to go week in, week out too to an NWSL game.
I'm pretty convinced to that. Youjust need to build it and they'll
come right just steal a famous moviequote there. So what's the right answer.
I don't know. Necessarily. Iwould ideally love to see a Canadian
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Woman's Premier League or whatever they callit. I hope we can get there,
but I think we have to takethe right steps to start to grow
that market. And it starts reallywith there's an existing structure out there that
speaks to the North American mindset interms of what a pro league looks like.
A Canadians, you know, struggledwith all Canadian leagues because we're used
to a North Seth orientation in termsof how our teams play. I mean
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every sport we play and it's NorthSeth, with the exception Canadian football.
Again, the Canadian League lay itright. There's also a basketball league and
it's all Canadian two and it's it'sdoing the same sort of thing stuff that
the camp be All is. Soit's not something that we're new used to
seeing. It's it's something we're startingto see do a bit more now.
But really we just you know,that investment if you can find it there
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and look last out in this chancebefore I let you jump back in.
I find it particularly agree agree justthat MLS and its wealth and it's insane
popularity cannot serve it female fans byhaving a professional women's sports team, either
at the w NBA level or thenWo cell level. It does it Just
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it's I've never come to groups without. This is one of the richest sports
organizations in the world. So thefact they can't pointing up a little bit
to get in the end of yourcell, they can't have enough insight to
do that, to me, itstrikes me as shameful. Is what it
does well. That teas up thenext point, which is says right here,
Car Harris joins Canada Canada Soccer withfifteen years of broad based experience as
(06:30):
a sports professional, having worked withMaple Leaf Sports and Entertainment across all six
brands. Yeah, and hopefully that'sassignment something. Um. Look, there
seems to be in the last yearor so, just as an observation there
are there seems to be something hasturned. The screw has turned on women's
pro sports in terms of their visibilityand their and their success. And you
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know, the numbers on TV andin stadiums are proving that people there's market
there for them. And MLC,for all of its faults, is not
a dumb country company. It's asuccessful company. It's got to see there's
got to be some bells going offsomewhere to tell them that that perhaps this
is a viable opportunity for them.Like forget the should stuff like should do,
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should do? Just think about purelyfrom a financial level. To me,
it seems like a no brainer thatyou want to get ans on both
sides, Like you know, thisisn't a basketball show, so we won't
do all on that. But Ithink that the NBA makes a lot of
sense too. The popularity the DrawRaptors series is pretty strong. So yeah,
the women's side there, and Ithink again, you do quite well.
And I just don't understand why theydon't have the the the strength afford
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to to the insights to do that. So hopefully it's a sign maybe with
that connection something can happen there.So I want, I want to go
back to the UM. Yeah,we've spoken about the NWSLS as a first
step, it us say in thisrelease, and let's let's give some credit
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here to the the again. Interms of viability, the CSA set have
received over seventy applicants for the joband it says here the newly created high
profile role will be dedicated to launchingwomen's professional soccer in Canada, a league
that will promote equality, diversion,inclusion and reconciliation and that can be a
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platform for breaking barriers and developing women'sleaders women leaders. Now, Okay,
that's a lot of that's a lotof corporate speak. It's a lot of
high level corporate speak. But I'mgonna zero went on two words and they
are a and league. Um,that's that's the endpoint. And I think
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about you know some things you mentioneda few minutes ago about what it's going
to take to get there, becausewe all know what it's going to take
to get there. It's going totake a lot of money. First of
all, a very very very verylarge amount of money. It is going
to be lost and not made backfor quite a while, because that's how
professional sports work generally. Hum,where is media pro, which is known
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in Canada's one soccer? Where arethey in this? Yeah? Um,
that's a good question. And Ido know that they've always spoke openly at
the CAMPL level the men's league tooabout having a women's side. Eventually that
goes predates the league. You know, I was sad in conversations where people
involved with that build Paul Byrne amongamong Canadian drop another form of let's even
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employ who was involved in the launchat the CAMPL. He always spoke openly
about that, as did the formercommissioner. Um. Look, there's a
I think that there is an advantageto having followed the men's launch in the
sense that you can sort of lookat what worked and what didn't. Now,
of first, they had a globalpandemic to deal with off their launch,
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which is not ideal in any situation, let alone when you're trying to
get a professional league going. Soit's not a perfect comparison, but I
do think that there's probably some lessonsto be learned in terms of the business
models. I stress and I thinkthat you need to regionalize it, like
I really do in terms of thetravel. That is the most killer thing
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you can do in this country.If you're only going to draw one,
two, three thousand fans a gameand you're not getting much TV money at
all. I mean, that's theone thing with one soccers. It's not
like they're paying money for a bigmoney for the rights. It's kind of
a loss leader for them. Theyneed to figure out ways to save some
money. And where does one soccerfitting. I think they have to have
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a TV party. You have tohave cooperation with the CAMPL. You don't
necessarily have to be directly connected.I don't think you necessarily need you know,
like specific women, cavalry women,those are teams in their CAMPL if
you don't know, but you haveto think work together. It just makes
so much sense in terms of youknow, putting the tickets together maybe even
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you know, if you are youcould perhaps even play doubleheaders or something like
that. Like there's there's stuff todo it and I think that one soccer
is absolutely been part of that forsure. It makes me wonder about this
too. And this is a subjectthat you and I and Kevin Laramy,
our producer, have battered around forprobably as long as I've known you guys.
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Because some people are going to say, well, where are TSN and
Rogers Sportsnet in this? And weknow for all those years they this is
something that comes up on Twitter offand these days in particular, if Rogers
and Bell for a long time didnot want the Canadian national team rights,
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or at least they did not wantto pay the amounts of money that the
CSA or somebody I don't know who'dwhen you would know who was putting on
there as the price tag. Well, now they're very popular and it's different
calculates. But one soccer is outthere, and I'm going to accuse them
of hoarding the rights for themselves,which they're entitled to do, which a
way, because that's how it's setup. But there was, for an
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example, on the men's side duringthe Men's World Cup qualifiers, a lot
of people had to put some peoplein a room and locked the door and
said, don't come out of hereuntil the games are on a broader TV
channel. Yeah. So first howdoes that, you know, interplay with
the potential you know, four morethan one entity be interested in some of
these games. Yeah. Um,I looked back to the early days of
(12:35):
First Off. Just to underline whatyou're saying. I looked back to the
early days of TFC, which Iwas deeply involved with, and one of
the greatest things I think they drovetheir early successes that it was on the
CBC here and you know, youcould watch it for free. I'm over
the air, right, and thatwas a big, big issue, Like
you didn't even app that cable.You could get in tennis and watch the
games. Um. I can't helpthink that that helped drive that success.
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People saw the party that was goingon down there, and they want to
get part of it. So youabsolutely need a TV partner, and you
absolutely need to be somewhere that keypeople can find. One. Soccer is
great for the hardcore. I willlove the fact that you can watch the
games undemanded anytime. I that's typicallyhow I watch the campl I don't watch
it live because I've got too muchMLS on my Clayton the weekend, so
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I'll just rewatch from four games aweek so it's not that hard, but
I'll throw them on during the day. It's a great platform. But and
the app runs great on my TV, so it's it's you know, it
works all around. But I mean, if there's ten thousand subscribers to that
thing, I'd be surprised. Iknow from having talked to people about background
that some of the games have likenumbers you know below this podcast in terms
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of people watching. And I don'tsay that to be dismissive or to make
fun, but it's just the realityof it. You're not getting enough exposure,
and there's a lot of talk abouthow to fix that and whether or
not one soccer needs to be doingmore. I mean, they've talked a
lot about getting on air TVs orgetting on cable packages, but there's only
a couple of channels, so there'sonly a couple of places where that exists,
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and there's probably less than maybe onehundred thousand TVs out there where you
can watch the thing on your cablepackage. So it's really an issue.
You mentioned that, you know thekannash it. Yeah, if they did
not get good basically, I'm notsure that they would have found those games
on TSN. And it was onlybecause they well, basically that Panama goal.
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They had twisted their arm and gotthat Panama game on and no funds
of babies put that for that rundownthe sideline and scored what I think was
the goal of qualifying for Canada anyway, and that suddenly burst this this team
into the forefront and they didn't haveto worry about rights anymore. And it
was pretty clear that it would havebeen a massive it had just been on
one soccer So so workally they workedout out. When it comes to um
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A women's potential women's league again,I would hope that that the TV partners
might be willing to let some ofthose games at least locally go out on
regular TV, on over the airTV. I think that's an important factor
because for any of these leagues.Look, again, I don't hate using
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men's support as an example. We'retalking about women's sport, but in this
particular case, I think it's justof note that the CAMPL has started so
recently, and you can look atback as a comparison of what it would
be. You look at the marketsthat are most successful in that league.
Victoria and Halifax the basically the twosmaller cities involved in the league, and
both of them have great local reach. They're they're big in their local community.
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And you have to really do that. And I think that's the key
to success, is to really becomea fixture in the local market and not
worry so much about five balls outsideof that, because you really only need
your your tire, your hardcore,and you get that through exposure. And
you know, even if you putthe games on YouTube or something like,
there's got to be a way theycan get them out there so people can
can find them. And that's that'san important thing. Um. Long time
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listeners of this show, followers ofmy work and Dwayne's work will know that
I'm I'm not the world's biggest fanof media pro for a lot of reasons.
Um, not that well, notthat there are the bank ry.
Their global conglomerate has been accused ofmany financialness deeds. How's that first state?
(16:18):
Yeah, I think that's a safeone. Um, they're uh,
I think about the league question,and it leads me to ponder. I
know because I've I've studied the gamein Canada enough, you know, for
long enough to understand that there arethree big, well established we'd probably put
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them at a round division three orthree and a half or so in the
United States for listeners listening here,semi professional provincial leagues in Canada. Uh,
one in British Columbia, one inOntario, and one in Quebec.
M Um, what roles are thoseleagues going to have to play in building
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up the structure where eventually, um, you know, I know there are
some relations between Isn't Isn't Sigma insome way informed involved in the league one
Ontario for example? Right? Yeah, Sigma? And uh, for sure
Signac is um the club that KyleLauren came out of. For your comparison
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there, they are informally the Peterteam to FORGEFC in the camp I mean
to the city on his brothers runSimon. So, but those three leagues
are very well established. They putteams in what Dwayne and I call the
Boys Yours Cup. It's got anofficial name of some kind. I forget
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what it is, but it's Canada'sequivalent of the US Open Cup. Those
teams enter into that um and oftenhave in the past. They've played,
i believe, some home games againsteach other, then they go and play
against the MLS teams and whatnot.But I think about how the entity,
the people behind some of those entitiesare going to have to be involved in
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whatever comes along, whether it's simplyis, whether it's simple as good politics
and good relations. You know,yeah, there is an infrastructure there to
start building from to getting towards eveneven if it is and you would know
this, Twayne, what the whatthose provincial leagues are on the women's side,
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but there's some infrastructure there is mypoint, that can be built upon
to help get this further going.Right. Yeah. It's interesting too because
what you're seeing with the add gunor the camp people were hopeful that would
drive investment at the highest level ofthe game. What it's done is it's
driven investment at this level that you'respeaking of. There's been a lot of
new teams that are popped up,both on the men's and women's side,
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that are really heavily backed. Andwhat the thinking is and what people are
sort of saying is that what's goingon here is it's a proof of concept.
People are investing at this level tosee whether they might then want to
take that step up. And Ithink that's really the role that that level
can play. There's a team calledSimple Simcoe County Rovers which are Simple County
is just north of Toronto, soit's it's a GTA kind of team Barry
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if you want to know specific,if you know your canade geography. What's
interesting with that group is who ownsit? Ifcott Lauren I mentioned in the
second time in the show. Imentioned him again. He's one of the
co owners of it, as isBecky Scott. More to the point this
is um this is an interesting developmentin terms of the money and the investment
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that's going at that level. AndI think that those teams might directly play
a role that they might not lookthat Barry team, for instance, if
it's successful, you know, Icould see them being the backers or are
the technical side of of a GTAteam in whatever league that that exists.
Comes out of this, we're perhapsgetting um uh, perhaps getting involved in
(20:10):
in NWSL. But if we goback to that, Janine Becky, by
the way back, he Scott's askier anyway. But anyhow, that's,
um, it's something that's interesting forsure. But look, that level is
decent. I worked in the quintariumfor for three years. Is worked in
the match day coordinator stuff for them, and the level is pretty good.
It's I would say it's younger.It's a league that, um, you
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know, it has a lot ofNSL players or at NCAA players and getting
to any acronyms to say it hasa lot of players in the summer break
kind of thing, right like,it's that kind of league right now in
terms of that in the US nowtoo. Yeah, in terms of like
the you know, there's a coupleof women that are you know, late
twenties that are still playing uh nameis escaping right now. So I apologist
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for they're ultimately score in that leagueis a older heads to stay older when
I'm talking about someone in their latetwenties, but they're much older than most
of the players in the league atany rate. Um, but it's rare
because they can't pay much money.They're allowed to pay per gams, but
it's you know, it's fifty buckshere and there. They're playing anything they
might cover their gas, right,Um, that's maybe changing with some of
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these new teams coming in, youknow, the money behind it, and
can't help but think that that's whattheir goal is, is to to see
what kind of operation that they canthat they can develop there and perhaps move
up to a higher level at somepoint. So yeah, it has to
be part of it. And youknow, we look at them again the
CAMPL the players that are coming inthat it's very much serves as a feeder
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league to that. I mean,you know, they have a draft in
the CAMPL for for the college systemup here, but a lot of their
players are coming directly from these theseleagues and that's where they're developing them from.
And that's you know, we've seenplayers come in and go back down
sometimes because the campail money is notgood enough and they like to play at
a high level still, like theyou mentioned the Voyager's Cup, um that
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one team involved in that has severalformal candade Premier League players that are on
this team, the Amount Royal teamthat's playing actually this Wednesday against Forge,
So so there you go. It'sa little bit of a publicity for them,
I guess, but it's it hasto be like that is. It's
a decent level and it's a levelthat is needed. And I think that
one to me, the most excitingthing that's come from the camp Lu is
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that that has gotten stronger. Thebasic league has launched well on TARR.
League one has got all kinds ofexpansion finally outside the GTA. All of
this is great and right from theget go. I've got to give Dia
Rozzie, the man behind Lague Ontariowho sort of started this and can you
know, an underappreciated name in Canadiansoccer. People don't know him necessarily,
but he's a big part of thedrive and he has a lot of influence
(22:41):
in terms of what he's done.From the get go. There's always been
a women's side in League One,and it's always been as it's one A,
one B right like it's it's neverbeen seen as anything less than what
it is or less than the men'sside. It's always been given equal treatments.
You've got to give them a lotof credit for that, and it
really does provide an opportunity and fillthat niche. So it always that niche
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will still be needed forever. You'regoing to need a league for people can
develop at where you know, collegeplayers can can play in the summer to
stay fit and all that. Soit will continue to do that, and
you know, hopefully if you getsome more backing, you can sort of
keep some of those what I calllifer players, which is sorely lacking within
the Canadian system. And I thinkthat those those type of players can really
(23:26):
drive success of the younger players becauseif you if you're only playing against people
your own age and you're always thetop fish. This has always been a
problem within Canadian soccer roll levels,is that they get once they get punched
in the mouth, when they leavethe confines of their comfortable place where they've
always been the best player. Theysometimes have struggled in the past to step
back up on both the men's andwomen's side of the game. And I
think that's a lot of a bigpart of it. So you need kind
(23:48):
of get punched in the mouth alittle bit when you're younger, right,
You need to be pushed and youneed that veteran class And hopefully they can
continue to do that. And ifthere's you know, if there's a professional,
if there's care at the end ofit, then people are gonna want
to play longer. I have onewoman that played at very high level.
She was a scholarship player from downsouth. Tell me that she joked what
league on a terry when was launchingbecause she was in that age where she
(24:10):
might have played still, and shesaid, well, it's it's for the
league for the unemployed and the collegestudents. Basically, it's the unemployed leage
because you have to be unemployed tomeet what they wanted in terms of training,
but there's no money involves, soyou can't like you'd have to get
your job up basically to work in. It's what she was saying, and
that's why she decided she'd go backto school and not play anymore. And
it's a loss. This was aplayer that could have probably pushed and helped
(24:33):
grow the sport, but alas right, if there's no opportunity and you can't
pay your bills. I mean,soccer is fun and all. You can
just go down and play at theyou know, playing the men's league or
something to keep yourself active. Butthe game's worse off for that. And
hopefully these leagues and these these teamscan can continue to develop so we don't
lose players like that anymore. SoKevin are our producer who will be producing
(24:59):
and posting this show after we recordit. Unfortunately is not on the show
with us at the moment, andI would like to ask him this question,
but he's he's not here, soI'm not going to be able to.
Um, where does Quebec land inall of this at a time when
there are some pretty good players,you know, from Quebec coming through truly
(25:22):
through the Canadian women's national team pipelinewhich was not always the case? And
um, where is it going tobe cultural marketing, media rights and such
wise, which is a hole inone soccer So resume, I think we
can agree on that and you canexplain a little of that too. Where
are they going to land in allthis? Yeah, that's the big question,
(25:45):
you know, across the board becausethey they claim that it's been their
priority to get into that market fromthe gacko in the on the men's side
and have it. Yet now again, you got to give him a little
bit of a break because of thesituation that was outside their controls, the
entire world's control that that has sortof messed everything. But but yeah,
look, Quebec, as you sayis vital. There has been so much
(26:06):
lost from that province, both onall sides of the game because of the
very reason you spoke of the Youknow, nepotism has run wild in Canadian
soccer over the years. I don'tthink that's necessarily unique to this country,
but it's certainly been a problem hereand a big part of that is that
there since there hasn't been much muchhasn't been much involvement from the Quebec those
(26:26):
they get left out, they getlost, and you can't lose those players.
You can't lose those players if youexpect to maintain your position as conquer
calf two. Basically, you know, I've been saying this for years that
yes, we're the Olympic gold medalistsand that was wonderful, but you know,
where's the next generation coming from.If you watch the candidate at the
use levels, you'd be terrified.That's what I have been doing. With
(26:48):
all due respect to the young womenthat are competing. That's that's not a
knock on them, it's a knockon the system. And yeah, you
need Quebec involved and they've done betterjob at it. And look, I
don't want to sound like an apologistfor Nick Guntist. I'm going to cover
him like I cover any president,but no one for years. As I
set out the top of the show, I think he is very sincere about
about growing the women's game and verycommitted to that. I mean, he
(27:10):
has daughters involved in it, amongother things, so that's that's probably part
of that, I would think.But nonetheless, he does, you know,
does do good work on this,and he has committed to try to
build this and to fix the problemsthat have existed for years. And I
think one of that was talentedentifications inthe problem to Quebec, which has certainly
been much better as of late.And I wonder about um, you know,
(27:33):
I mentioned the cultural and marketing andmedia rights thing, and I hope
you'll just explain the lack of presencein one soccer of one soccer in French
and the impact that that has had. Yeah, I mean basically I decided
of mind, like there's you know, Quebec is primarily a French speaking provinces,
(27:55):
as most people would know, butif you go outside of Montreal and
you don't speak angler don't speak French, you've been struggle in that problem.
So Obviously, if you're not speakingin the language that the people are using,
they're not going to listen to you. They're not hearing you, they
don't even know you exist. Insome cases, m Ottawa is the market
that is significantly bilingual as well,so the fact that they don't have French
regular French service for for Ottawa isridiculous. Frankly, m I. There
(28:22):
has been some recent changes at thecommunications level at the league. Laura Armstrong
firmily the Toronto Star just accepted thehead of communications and she's involved with both
one Soccer and the campl now.So the hope is that maybe a bit
of a younger, more progressive voicein there might know Laura she is just
(28:45):
that will help maybe address that.But she's also at the phone, so
she's from Ottawah. She must sheshould know that that market and that the
need right so hopefully this gets fixed. But right now, yeah, it's
if you don't speak French to Quebecers, if you don't even try, they're
they're not gonna respect you or lookto you very much. You I'll tell
(29:07):
you what, though, you doany level of effort, they'll they're very
thankful for that. So I justhave never understood why they've ignored this.
I have many concerns about about theleadership of the Campo in terms of their
decisions in the first three years,and they have not really lived up to
what they said they were going tobe. But you know, it's hard
for people to hear that sometimes becausewe all want the leagues to succeed so
(29:27):
much. The lack of French isa big part of that. The lack
of the female presence is a biggerpart of it. So you know this,
we're hitting them both right right here. And I'll be the stereotypical plus
American for a second. You wantthe most people possible to watch your league
in your broadcast, you ought tobe a bit You ought to make yourself
available to everybody in the country likeall the other sports too. They do
(29:49):
have in their In fact, theydo sometimes put some French broadcast up there.
They hired one French broadcast that theydo some the cast on one soccer,
so I shouldn't say that, butthere's no I get a coverage at
all like they, you know,will hire some translators occasionally to translate English
articles, which is not the same, but at any rate, and there
are like I've known Laura Armstrong fora while. If Laura, if you're
(30:11):
listening, we will miss you greatlyon this side of the ledger. Um,
best of luck in h in allyour work in your new job.
But she did terrific stuff covering women'sand men's soccer for for the Toronto Star,
which is the biggest daily city localbroadsheet in Toronto. She did a
great job for many years there.And look, there are a lot of
(30:33):
good people who work at One Soccer, who work with the knpl who create
content over there, people who youand I know Dwayne have known for a
long time, all m Oliver Platt, Christian Jack now Laura's. There are
a lot of good people who workon their TV broadcasts. Gareth Wheeler is
another one who you and I haveknown for a long time. Um,
(30:56):
but it's it's a whole. Aswe said, their lack of carverage in
French to cover Quebec, which isone of the most soccer mad soccer enthused,
pick your choice of word. Thesport is wildly popular in Montreal in
(31:19):
particular, and if I wasn't involvedin marketing, I would want to go
get that audience we've we've we've gonethat now around that point, around and
around enough times, I think,and let's let's take one quick moment,
Dwayne, before we called time onthis. We are I guess we're two
(31:41):
months out. There still a longways to go before the cock CAF Championships,
but we know the field now,we know the tournament is going to
be in Mexico, which is goingto add a very interesting dynamic to the
whole thing, especially the United Statesplaying Mexico in Mexico. In all the
games are in Monterey, in theMonterey area at t Grass's Stadium at Monterey
Stadium. They're great venues. Theywill be sold out. They will be
(32:05):
for the Mexico games from particular includingUSA Mexico. They will be definitely loud.
The United States as women have notplayed in an atmosphere like that in
an awfully long time, and itwill be fascinating to see how they do.
And and there are some interesting tweaksto this tournament. As we know,
it's qualifying for the twenty twenty threeWorld Cup, it's qualifying for the
(32:28):
twenty four Olympics. And here's thetwist. Only the team that wins the
whole tournament qualifies directly for the Olympics. That adds some steakes and some spice
to this thing that there. I'venever been before. And Wayne, what's
the conversation light going in Canada atthe moment about how you think it might
play out? Oh, I meanthe draw, it was a pretty normal
(32:50):
draw for Canada, Costa Rica andthe group which should be beatable. But
it's at semi final game. Asyou mentioned, when you put the home
field advantage in there, even makingthe final is not necessarily you know,
I guarantee now there's some second chanceto get to a World Cup. But
this is a team that's success hasbeen largely driven by its Olympic success,
and you know that's undeniable. It'sOlympic success. Three straight medals will defending
(33:14):
champions. Say what you want abouthow they did it. They're still the
defending champions, right and to nothave to have such a difficult path to
get back to do that again.As a real head, I think to
them, and you know, Ithink the US is going to be out
for a little bit of revenge.Um, they're still the clear favorite,
there's still the top dog out there. I mean, that's that's clearer.
I mean, maybe they couldn't usea little refreshing if the Olympics or something,
(33:35):
but they're gonna be angry about that, and they're gonna want to get
back to just a little Yeah,I don't think they're necessarily uh, they'll
they'll have that circle for another chanceto be candidate the game where they you
know, get back to the waythen then you're supposed to play out in
their mind right. So it's atough drop, um, And it's a
tough format. But that's good ina way too, because I think it's
(34:00):
good that Mexico will be a challenge. I think that they've been They were
the most disappointing team in the lastfew years for me. I expected them
to step up more. But youknow, to take my partisan that off
for a second and just look atthis for the growth of the game perspective.
It's kind of disappointing that Canada theUS we're still as far ahead as
they were in the last qualifying cycle. So you know, this allowed a
twist to it, and I thinkit's it's great for the region that it's
(34:21):
not going to be you know,in Florida or something again. Um,
with all due respect, we understandwhy so many tournaments are in the US,
but I don't think it's good foranyone, including the US, to
always play at home. So it'sa good challenge that way, and it's
it would be good for the growthof the region. You got to love
what the what the Mexican Mexing Federationis done with their lead down there,
and the success and the popularity ofit is wonderful to see. So this
is an opportunity for them to provethat that's working. And um, you
(34:45):
know, I've been saying it foryears that Canada needs to needs to look
over its shoulder a little bit becauseonce Mexico they ever get firing in the
whole cylinders and work at some ofthe issues that they've got in the past,
and you know, no guarantees anymoreto get the World Cup here.
Yeah, And for those who don'tknow or who have forgotten the way the
format of this tournament will work twogroups of four teams. Each Group A
(35:07):
is the USA, Mexico, Jamaicaand Haiti. It is easily the harder
of the two groups, even forthe United States, having to play both
Mexico and Jamaica. Group B isCanada, Costa Rica, Panama and Turn
it Out and Tobago. The toptwo teams in each group will qualify to
the World Cup and Wells as wellas advancing to the knockout stage the tournament.
The third place teams in each groupwill go to the inter confederation playoffs
(35:31):
for what will be a World Cupof thirty two teams, which is why
it's a lot easier now to qualifyout of CONCACAT for a World Cup than
it's ever been. And then inthe knockout rounds, the fund will really
start semifinals and then the final andthird place playoff. Only the winner of
(35:51):
the whole thing, as we said, qualifies directly for the twenty four Olympics
in France. The loser of thefinal and the winner of the third place
game will play a playoff for anotherbirth to the Olympics, which obviously has
not expanded the field whatsoever. Idon't know when that playoff is going to
(36:14):
be. I am scrambling and lookingit up. September of twenty three is
when it says the conk Calf Olympicplay in series is what it's called.
So I'm guessing I'm guessing that willbe home in a way, or at
least that was the idea when itall got started, when they came up
with these things. Dwayne, anythingwe've missed you think, no, that
about covers it, Jonathan. Ithink it's good to talk nay when soccer.
(36:37):
It's sort of got a with allthe excitement of the men's team up
here, I think are guilty ofnot talking enough about the Olympic champions So
I'm happy to have that opportunity,all right, Dwayne. Before we wrap
up, just one more thing.This is my last show in the host's
seat of the Women's Soccer Review.It's my decision, not anybody else's.
(36:59):
It's mine because I've just got somuch going on at the Inquiry at the
moment, including a little promotion thatI got recently. I think I've mentioned
to folks here over time that Iam also you know, I've also for
(37:19):
many many years, fifteen plus,i've been one of the editors of our
homepage, not just a reporter,and I finally have been promoted to just
being a reporter a full time now, which is going to allow me to
do a lot of great soccer features. It's going to allow me to dive
in on the w NBA, whichI did recently, as a number of
you have seen. I'm very excitedabout that. Just going to be some
changes to my time and commitments.Dwayne, you know I'm always happy to
(37:45):
be at your service for Soccer Todayor as a guest on anybody else,
as you guys would like. Thisis the forty fourth episode of the Women's
Soccer Review that I have hosted,going back to the very first one,
which was in twenty nineteen, ifmy memory's right up December of twenty nineteen
(38:07):
was the first one. Dwayne andI we're together on the first one,
and so we'll be together on thelast one that I am in the host's
chair for. And Dwayne, Iwish you and Kevin, both of you
guys, of course, are mydear friend. It's been far too long
since I've been in Toronto or Montreal, and I hope to fix that one
of these days. It's been agreat pleasure doing this. I've had a
(38:30):
lot of fun with it, andI thank you guys for the opportunity.
You're Walcome Johnson, You've always beenYou're probably the voice that's been on our
show is more than any other exceptfor our own of course, So we
do always thank you for your timeand your insight into the winning's game is
second to none. UM, there'sa quick an here, I'll put them.
Put it out there for anyone listening. UM, if you're interested in
(38:51):
this, we can help you alongwith the technical side of things. UM,
just sit me off an email.D G R O L L I
N S at gmail doc It's dgRowlands at the gmail dot com. End
me off an email. UM.I particularly am interested in in a female
voice to take the lead on thisproject because I think that you know that,
like too many podcasting networks out there, there's too many middle aged white
(39:14):
guys with their opinion. And I'mhappy to help. I'm happy to add
my insight. I've covered the women'sgame a long time, but I would
love to have a women's voice onthis show. So so give me an
email if you're listening to this,And you know, Canadian American doesn't matter
where you are. We do everythingremotely and we can we can maybe talk
from there well, and then Ilook forward hopefully to that happened. That's
(39:35):
something that I'm obviously and in fullsupport and I've been very happy for all
the that I've been able to bringso many of my friends and colleagues onto
this show over the you know,two and a half or so years that
it's been introducing some folks that maybesome people knew about or read before,
or maybe they had to bring themon and have some great conversations about the
(40:00):
women's game all the way around theworld. And so we will call time
right there. Dwayne and Kevin,thank you, guys, into all of
the listeners. Thank you also verymuch for listening to the Women's Soccer Review
here on the Sports Podcasting Network.I'm Jonathan tannenwald On, behalf of Dwayne
Rawlins and Kevin Laramy. We'll seeyou all down the road.
The Women's Sucker Review podcast with DwayneRawlins and Jonathan Tannon Walled on the Sports
Podcasting Welcome to the latest episode ofthe Women's Soccer Review here on the Sports
Podcasting Network. This is Jonathan TannonWall to the Philadelphia Inquirer. And you
notice in the intro of the show, how it says Dwayne Rawlins and Jonathan
(00:27):
Tannon Walled. Well, it's beena little while since Dwayne's been on,
so it's time to do something aboutthat, and welcome Dwayne back. John.
I'm good. Yeah, lots goingon in life, but I'm happy
to be back here today and totalk a little bit about some exciting developments.
At least I help so up here. Yeah, yeah. The subject
of this show is going to bean announcement by the Canadian Soccer Association earlier
(00:51):
this month in May. Yes,it's May. I know it's been a
long time again since we did ourlast show, but here we are in
on May ninth, recording this show, and on May seventh, the Canadian
Soccer Association announced that it has hiredBriaga car Harris. And if I pronounce
that name incorrectly, I'm very sorry, as its head of women's professional soccer.
(01:14):
Now realize that there was a leaguecalled women's professional soccer back in the
day that is defunct. So they'renot hiring somebody for something defunct, they're
hiring somebody for something in the future. And here we have a quote from
doctor Nick Boggus, the president ofthe Canadian Soccer Association. Now, more
than ever, the women's professional gamedeserves to have its rightful place in this
country. We are very excited towelcome Briaga car Harris to this newly treated
(01:36):
role which is critical to the advancementof the women's professional game in this country.
Dwayne, there is no professional women'sprofessional game in your country. So
what do we make of this?Well, I Nick bombs the President's YESA.
I've talked to him quite a bitover the years on this subject and
he's always came off his very sincereto me and his desire to to find
(02:00):
a pathway to to really drill downand focus on that on that side of
the game. Um, it's kindof shameful. Not kind of shameful,
it's a lot of shameful that thereis no professional teams in this country.
With all due respect to the sortof semi pro teams are out not one
league below the US League out West, there's a couple of teams. So
with all due respect to them,um that said, it's we still the
(02:23):
proofs in the putting right, like, we're gonna need to see this thing
play out before I'm willing to givethem full credit here, but it's nice
to see them taking concrete steps thatmay eventually lead lead us to what's long,
long overdue. And you know,how do you expect that to play
(02:46):
out? Which not quite like it'snot a fair question. I realized,
how do you expect to play out? Because there are a lot of different
ways that it could play out,how it starts, where it ends up.
Obviously, there are a lot ofcalls to have an on WSL team
in Canada, whether it's into HonoreVancouver and why don't we start there,
Dwayne, Which you know is thatdo you think from what you understand,
(03:07):
is that going to be the firsttarget? I know again having talked to
people at the CSA, they're opento both models, the two models being
the sort of existing model in themen's side, where you have a Canadian
league that's developed eventually, but asyou start with the Leonapo Cell teams.
In this case, they have mostteams in the men's side, of course,
and I tend to lean that way. I think that that's the best
(03:30):
pathway to success. And I knowthat's going to be something that a lot
of Canadian listeners don't like to hear. But I'm just realistic about the concerns
and the problems that would come tostarting a league up to scratch. I
mean, the camp all the CanadianDemen's League is not exactly tearing and up
attendance wise, and it's well backed, so it's fine, and they have
(03:53):
the twenty twenty six World Cup tosort of point to and motivate them.
But that said, you know you'restill operating a league there where one man
owns three teams. Um that wouldbe Bob Young who owns Forge Halifax and
part of Pacific, I believe Pacificin aywhere there's a third team involved,
you know, that's a problem.And if you can can't get the investors
on that side, which unfortunately ismore commercially viable in people's minds. In
(04:16):
people's minds, I stress, butnonetheless that perception is out there, then
it's difficult for me to see howyou'd find enough investment to start a game
premierly got to start. But whatI do think is possible, and when
I think is kind of shameful againthat the that doesn't exist already, it
is to put a team in oneof those markets that has the MLS teams
that they can sort of lean onthat for their for their ticketing. Um,
(04:39):
I think you could probably get toan easy ten thousand pretty quickly.
In a city like the size I'min. There's at least ten thousand people
that are going to go week in, week out too to an NWSL game.
I'm pretty convinced to that. Youjust need to build it and they'll
come right just steal a famous moviequote there. So what's the right answer.
I don't know. Necessarily. Iwould ideally love to see a Canadian
(05:00):
Woman's Premier League or whatever they callit. I hope we can get there,
but I think we have to takethe right steps to start to grow
that market. And it starts reallywith there's an existing structure out there that
speaks to the North American mindset interms of what a pro league looks like.
A Canadians, you know, struggledwith all Canadian leagues because we're used
to a North Seth orientation in termsof how our teams play. I mean
(05:25):
every sport we play and it's NorthSeth, with the exception Canadian football.
Again, the Canadian League lay itright. There's also a basketball league and
it's all Canadian two and it's it'sdoing the same sort of thing stuff that
the camp be All is. Soit's not something that we're new used to
seeing. It's it's something we're startingto see do a bit more now.
But really we just you know,that investment if you can find it there
(05:45):
and look last out in this chancebefore I let you jump back in.
I find it particularly agree agree justthat MLS and its wealth and it's insane
popularity cannot serve it female fans byhaving a professional women's sports team, either
at the w NBA level or thenWo cell level. It does it Just
(06:06):
it's I've never come to groups without. This is one of the richest sports
organizations in the world. So thefact they can't pointing up a little bit
to get in the end of yourcell, they can't have enough insight to
do that, to me, itstrikes me as shameful. Is what it
does well. That teas up thenext point, which is says right here,
Car Harris joins Canada Canada Soccer withfifteen years of broad based experience as
(06:30):
a sports professional, having worked withMaple Leaf Sports and Entertainment across all six
brands. Yeah, and hopefully that'sassignment something. Um. Look, there
seems to be in the last yearor so, just as an observation there
are there seems to be something hasturned. The screw has turned on women's
pro sports in terms of their visibilityand their and their success. And you
(06:56):
know, the numbers on TV andin stadiums are proving that people there's market
there for them. And MLC,for all of its faults, is not
a dumb country company. It's asuccessful company. It's got to see there's
got to be some bells going offsomewhere to tell them that that perhaps this
is a viable opportunity for them.Like forget the should stuff like should do,
(07:17):
should do? Just think about purelyfrom a financial level. To me,
it seems like a no brainer thatyou want to get ans on both
sides, Like you know, thisisn't a basketball show, so we won't
do all on that. But Ithink that the NBA makes a lot of
sense too. The popularity the DrawRaptors series is pretty strong. So yeah,
the women's side there, and Ithink again, you do quite well.
And I just don't understand why theydon't have the the the strength afford
(07:43):
to to the insights to do that. So hopefully it's a sign maybe with
that connection something can happen there.So I want, I want to go
back to the UM. Yeah,we've spoken about the NWSLS as a first
step, it us say in thisrelease, and let's let's give some credit
(08:05):
here to the the again. Interms of viability, the CSA set have
received over seventy applicants for the joband it says here the newly created high
profile role will be dedicated to launchingwomen's professional soccer in Canada, a league
that will promote equality, diversion,inclusion and reconciliation and that can be a
(08:26):
platform for breaking barriers and developing women'sleaders women leaders. Now, Okay,
that's a lot of that's a lotof corporate speak. It's a lot of
high level corporate speak. But I'mgonna zero went on two words and they
are a and league. Um,that's that's the endpoint. And I think
(08:50):
about you know some things you mentioneda few minutes ago about what it's going
to take to get there, becausewe all know what it's going to take
to get there. It's going totake a lot of money. First of
all, a very very very verylarge amount of money. It is going
to be lost and not made backfor quite a while, because that's how
professional sports work generally. Hum,where is media pro, which is known
(09:16):
in Canada's one soccer? Where arethey in this? Yeah? Um,
that's a good question. And Ido know that they've always spoke openly at
the CAMPL level the men's league tooabout having a women's side. Eventually that
goes predates the league. You know, I was sad in conversations where people
involved with that build Paul Byrne amongamong Canadian drop another form of let's even
(09:37):
employ who was involved in the launchat the CAMPL. He always spoke openly
about that, as did the formercommissioner. Um. Look, there's a
I think that there is an advantageto having followed the men's launch in the
sense that you can sort of lookat what worked and what didn't. Now,
of first, they had a globalpandemic to deal with off their launch,
(09:58):
which is not ideal in any situation, let alone when you're trying to
get a professional league going. Soit's not a perfect comparison, but I
do think that there's probably some lessonsto be learned in terms of the business
models. I stress and I thinkthat you need to regionalize it, like
I really do in terms of thetravel. That is the most killer thing
(10:20):
you can do in this country.If you're only going to draw one,
two, three thousand fans a gameand you're not getting much TV money at
all. I mean, that's theone thing with one soccers. It's not
like they're paying money for a bigmoney for the rights. It's kind of
a loss leader for them. Theyneed to figure out ways to save some
money. And where does one soccerfitting. I think they have to have
(10:41):
a TV party. You have tohave cooperation with the CAMPL. You don't
necessarily have to be directly connected.I don't think you necessarily need you know,
like specific women, cavalry women,those are teams in their CAMPL if
you don't know, but you haveto think work together. It just makes
so much sense in terms of youknow, putting the tickets together maybe even
(11:03):
you know, if you are youcould perhaps even play doubleheaders or something like
that. Like there's there's stuff todo it and I think that one soccer
is absolutely been part of that forsure. It makes me wonder about this
too. And this is a subjectthat you and I and Kevin Laramy,
our producer, have battered around forprobably as long as I've known you guys.
(11:24):
Because some people are going to say, well, where are TSN and
Rogers Sportsnet in this? And weknow for all those years they this is
something that comes up on Twitter offand these days in particular, if Rogers
and Bell for a long time didnot want the Canadian national team rights,
(11:45):
or at least they did not wantto pay the amounts of money that the
CSA or somebody I don't know who'dwhen you would know who was putting on
there as the price tag. Well, now they're very popular and it's different
calculates. But one soccer is outthere, and I'm going to accuse them
of hoarding the rights for themselves,which they're entitled to do, which a
way, because that's how it's setup. But there was, for an
(12:09):
example, on the men's side duringthe Men's World Cup qualifiers, a lot
of people had to put some peoplein a room and locked the door and
said, don't come out of hereuntil the games are on a broader TV
channel. Yeah. So first howdoes that, you know, interplay with
the potential you know, four morethan one entity be interested in some of
these games. Yeah. Um,I looked back to the early days of
(12:35):
First Off. Just to underline whatyou're saying. I looked back to the
early days of TFC, which Iwas deeply involved with, and one of
the greatest things I think they drovetheir early successes that it was on the
CBC here and you know, youcould watch it for free. I'm over
the air, right, and thatwas a big, big issue, Like
you didn't even app that cable.You could get in tennis and watch the
games. Um. I can't helpthink that that helped drive that success.
(12:58):
People saw the party that was goingon down there, and they want to
get part of it. So youabsolutely need a TV partner, and you
absolutely need to be somewhere that keypeople can find. One. Soccer is
great for the hardcore. I willlove the fact that you can watch the
games undemanded anytime. I that's typicallyhow I watch the campl I don't watch
it live because I've got too muchMLS on my Clayton the weekend, so
(13:22):
I'll just rewatch from four games aweek so it's not that hard, but
I'll throw them on during the day. It's a great platform. But and
the app runs great on my TV, so it's it's you know, it
works all around. But I mean, if there's ten thousand subscribers to that
thing, I'd be surprised. Iknow from having talked to people about background
that some of the games have likenumbers you know below this podcast in terms
(13:43):
of people watching. And I don'tsay that to be dismissive or to make
fun, but it's just the realityof it. You're not getting enough exposure,
and there's a lot of talk abouthow to fix that and whether or
not one soccer needs to be doingmore. I mean, they've talked a
lot about getting on air TVs orgetting on cable packages, but there's only
a couple of channels, so there'sonly a couple of places where that exists,
(14:05):
and there's probably less than maybe onehundred thousand TVs out there where you
can watch the thing on your cablepackage. So it's really an issue.
You mentioned that, you know thekannash it. Yeah, if they did
not get good basically, I'm notsure that they would have found those games
on TSN. And it was onlybecause they well, basically that Panama goal.
(14:26):
They had twisted their arm and gotthat Panama game on and no funds
of babies put that for that rundownthe sideline and scored what I think was
the goal of qualifying for Canada anyway, and that suddenly burst this this team
into the forefront and they didn't haveto worry about rights anymore. And it
was pretty clear that it would havebeen a massive it had just been on
one soccer So so workally they workedout out. When it comes to um
(14:48):
A women's potential women's league again,I would hope that that the TV partners
might be willing to let some ofthose games at least locally go out on
regular TV, on over the airTV. I think that's an important factor
because for any of these leagues.Look, again, I don't hate using
(15:09):
men's support as an example. We'retalking about women's sport, but in this
particular case, I think it's justof note that the CAMPL has started so
recently, and you can look atback as a comparison of what it would
be. You look at the marketsthat are most successful in that league.
Victoria and Halifax the basically the twosmaller cities involved in the league, and
both of them have great local reach. They're they're big in their local community.
(15:30):
And you have to really do that. And I think that's the key
to success, is to really becomea fixture in the local market and not
worry so much about five balls outsideof that, because you really only need
your your tire, your hardcore,and you get that through exposure. And
you know, even if you putthe games on YouTube or something like,
there's got to be a way theycan get them out there so people can
can find them. And that's that'san important thing. Um. Long time
(15:56):
listeners of this show, followers ofmy work and Dwayne's work will know that
I'm I'm not the world's biggest fanof media pro for a lot of reasons.
Um, not that well, notthat there are the bank ry.
Their global conglomerate has been accused ofmany financialness deeds. How's that first state?
(16:18):
Yeah, I think that's a safeone. Um, they're uh,
I think about the league question,and it leads me to ponder. I
know because I've I've studied the gamein Canada enough, you know, for
long enough to understand that there arethree big, well established we'd probably put
(16:48):
them at a round division three orthree and a half or so in the
United States for listeners listening here,semi professional provincial leagues in Canada. Uh,
one in British Columbia, one inOntario, and one in Quebec.
M Um, what roles are thoseleagues going to have to play in building
(17:11):
up the structure where eventually, um, you know, I know there are
some relations between Isn't Isn't Sigma insome way informed involved in the league one
Ontario for example? Right? Yeah, Sigma? And uh, for sure
Signac is um the club that KyleLauren came out of. For your comparison
(17:33):
there, they are informally the Peterteam to FORGEFC in the camp I mean
to the city on his brothers runSimon. So, but those three leagues
are very well established. They putteams in what Dwayne and I call the
Boys Yours Cup. It's got anofficial name of some kind. I forget
(17:56):
what it is, but it's Canada'sequivalent of the US Open Cup. Those
teams enter into that um and oftenhave in the past. They've played,
i believe, some home games againsteach other, then they go and play
against the MLS teams and whatnot.But I think about how the entity,
the people behind some of those entitiesare going to have to be involved in
(18:17):
whatever comes along, whether it's simplyis, whether it's simple as good politics
and good relations. You know,yeah, there is an infrastructure there to
start building from to getting towards eveneven if it is and you would know
this, Twayne, what the whatthose provincial leagues are on the women's side,
(18:40):
but there's some infrastructure there is mypoint, that can be built upon
to help get this further going.Right. Yeah. It's interesting too because
what you're seeing with the add gunor the camp people were hopeful that would
drive investment at the highest level ofthe game. What it's done is it's
driven investment at this level that you'respeaking of. There's been a lot of
new teams that are popped up,both on the men's and women's side,
(19:03):
that are really heavily backed. Andwhat the thinking is and what people are
sort of saying is that what's goingon here is it's a proof of concept.
People are investing at this level tosee whether they might then want to
take that step up. And Ithink that's really the role that that level
can play. There's a team calledSimple Simcoe County Rovers which are Simple County
is just north of Toronto, soit's it's a GTA kind of team Barry
(19:27):
if you want to know specific,if you know your canade geography. What's
interesting with that group is who ownsit? Ifcott Lauren I mentioned in the
second time in the show. Imentioned him again. He's one of the
co owners of it, as isBecky Scott. More to the point this
is um this is an interesting developmentin terms of the money and the investment
(19:48):
that's going at that level. AndI think that those teams might directly play
a role that they might not lookthat Barry team, for instance, if
it's successful, you know, Icould see them being the backers or are
the technical side of of a GTAteam in whatever league that that exists.
Comes out of this, we're perhapsgetting um uh, perhaps getting involved in
(20:10):
in NWSL. But if we goback to that, Janine Becky, by
the way back, he Scott's askier anyway. But anyhow, that's,
um, it's something that's interesting forsure. But look, that level is
decent. I worked in the quintariumfor for three years. Is worked in
the match day coordinator stuff for them, and the level is pretty good.
It's I would say it's younger.It's a league that, um, you
(20:33):
know, it has a lot ofNSL players or at NCAA players and getting
to any acronyms to say it hasa lot of players in the summer break
kind of thing, right like,it's that kind of league right now in
terms of that in the US nowtoo. Yeah, in terms of like
the you know, there's a coupleof women that are you know, late
twenties that are still playing uh nameis escaping right now. So I apologist
(20:55):
for they're ultimately score in that leagueis a older heads to stay older when
I'm talking about someone in their latetwenties, but they're much older than most
of the players in the league atany rate. Um, but it's rare
because they can't pay much money.They're allowed to pay per gams, but
it's you know, it's fifty buckshere and there. They're playing anything they
might cover their gas, right,Um, that's maybe changing with some of
(21:18):
these new teams coming in, youknow, the money behind it, and
can't help but think that that's whattheir goal is, is to to see
what kind of operation that they canthat they can develop there and perhaps move
up to a higher level at somepoint. So yeah, it has to
be part of it. And youknow, we look at them again the
CAMPL the players that are coming inthat it's very much serves as a feeder
(21:40):
league to that. I mean,you know, they have a draft in
the CAMPL for for the college systemup here, but a lot of their
players are coming directly from these theseleagues and that's where they're developing them from.
And that's you know, we've seenplayers come in and go back down
sometimes because the campail money is notgood enough and they like to play at
a high level still, like theyou mentioned the Voyager's Cup, um that
(22:00):
one team involved in that has severalformal candade Premier League players that are on
this team, the Amount Royal teamthat's playing actually this Wednesday against Forge,
So so there you go. It'sa little bit of a publicity for them,
I guess, but it's it hasto be like that is. It's
a decent level and it's a levelthat is needed. And I think that
one to me, the most excitingthing that's come from the camp Lu is
(22:21):
that that has gotten stronger. Thebasic league has launched well on TARR.
League one has got all kinds ofexpansion finally outside the GTA. All of
this is great and right from theget go. I've got to give Dia
Rozzie, the man behind Lague Ontariowho sort of started this and can you
know, an underappreciated name in Canadiansoccer. People don't know him necessarily,
but he's a big part of thedrive and he has a lot of influence
(22:41):
in terms of what he's done.From the get go. There's always been
a women's side in League One,and it's always been as it's one A,
one B right like it's it's neverbeen seen as anything less than what
it is or less than the men'sside. It's always been given equal treatments.
You've got to give them a lotof credit for that, and it
really does provide an opportunity and fillthat niche. So it always that niche
(23:03):
will still be needed forever. You'regoing to need a league for people can
develop at where you know, collegeplayers can can play in the summer to
stay fit and all that. Soit will continue to do that, and
you know, hopefully if you getsome more backing, you can sort of
keep some of those what I calllifer players, which is sorely lacking within
the Canadian system. And I thinkthat those those type of players can really
(23:26):
drive success of the younger players becauseif you if you're only playing against people
your own age and you're always thetop fish. This has always been a
problem within Canadian soccer roll levels,is that they get once they get punched
in the mouth, when they leavethe confines of their comfortable place where they've
always been the best player. Theysometimes have struggled in the past to step
back up on both the men's andwomen's side of the game. And I
think that's a lot of a bigpart of it. So you need kind
(23:48):
of get punched in the mouth alittle bit when you're younger, right,
You need to be pushed and youneed that veteran class And hopefully they can
continue to do that. And ifthere's you know, if there's a professional,
if there's care at the end ofit, then people are gonna want
to play longer. I have onewoman that played at very high level.
She was a scholarship player from downsouth. Tell me that she joked what
league on a terry when was launchingbecause she was in that age where she
(24:10):
might have played still, and shesaid, well, it's it's for the
league for the unemployed and the collegestudents. Basically, it's the unemployed leage
because you have to be unemployed tomeet what they wanted in terms of training,
but there's no money involves, soyou can't like you'd have to get
your job up basically to work in. It's what she was saying, and
that's why she decided she'd go backto school and not play anymore. And
it's a loss. This was aplayer that could have probably pushed and helped
(24:33):
grow the sport, but alas right, if there's no opportunity and you can't
pay your bills. I mean,soccer is fun and all. You can
just go down and play at theyou know, playing the men's league or
something to keep yourself active. Butthe game's worse off for that. And
hopefully these leagues and these these teamscan can continue to develop so we don't
lose players like that anymore. SoKevin are our producer who will be producing
(24:59):
and posting this show after we recordit. Unfortunately is not on the show
with us at the moment, andI would like to ask him this question,
but he's he's not here, soI'm not going to be able to.
Um, where does Quebec land inall of this at a time when
there are some pretty good players,you know, from Quebec coming through truly
(25:22):
through the Canadian women's national team pipelinewhich was not always the case? And
um, where is it going tobe cultural marketing, media rights and such
wise, which is a hole inone soccer So resume, I think we
can agree on that and you canexplain a little of that too. Where
are they going to land in allthis? Yeah, that's the big question,
(25:45):
you know, across the board becausethey they claim that it's been their
priority to get into that market fromthe gacko in the on the men's side
and have it. Yet now again, you got to give him a little
bit of a break because of thesituation that was outside their controls, the
entire world's control that that has sortof messed everything. But but yeah,
look, Quebec, as you sayis vital. There has been so much
(26:06):
lost from that province, both onall sides of the game because of the
very reason you spoke of the Youknow, nepotism has run wild in Canadian
soccer over the years. I don'tthink that's necessarily unique to this country,
but it's certainly been a problem hereand a big part of that is that
there since there hasn't been much muchhasn't been much involvement from the Quebec those
(26:26):
they get left out, they getlost, and you can't lose those players.
You can't lose those players if youexpect to maintain your position as conquer
calf two. Basically, you know, I've been saying this for years that
yes, we're the Olympic gold medalistsand that was wonderful, but you know,
where's the next generation coming from.If you watch the candidate at the
use levels, you'd be terrified.That's what I have been doing. With
(26:48):
all due respect to the young womenthat are competing. That's that's not a
knock on them, it's a knockon the system. And yeah, you
need Quebec involved and they've done betterjob at it. And look, I
don't want to sound like an apologistfor Nick Guntist. I'm going to cover
him like I cover any president,but no one for years. As I
set out the top of the show, I think he is very sincere about
about growing the women's game and verycommitted to that. I mean, he
(27:10):
has daughters involved in it, amongother things, so that's that's probably part
of that, I would think.But nonetheless, he does, you know,
does do good work on this,and he has committed to try to
build this and to fix the problemsthat have existed for years. And I
think one of that was talentedentifications inthe problem to Quebec, which has certainly
been much better as of late.And I wonder about um, you know,
(27:33):
I mentioned the cultural and marketing andmedia rights thing, and I hope
you'll just explain the lack of presencein one soccer of one soccer in French
and the impact that that has had. Yeah, I mean basically I decided
of mind, like there's you know, Quebec is primarily a French speaking provinces,
(27:55):
as most people would know, butif you go outside of Montreal and
you don't speak angler don't speak French, you've been struggle in that problem.
So Obviously, if you're not speakingin the language that the people are using,
they're not going to listen to you. They're not hearing you, they
don't even know you exist. Insome cases, m Ottawa is the market
that is significantly bilingual as well,so the fact that they don't have French
regular French service for for Ottawa isridiculous. Frankly, m I. There
(28:22):
has been some recent changes at thecommunications level at the league. Laura Armstrong
firmily the Toronto Star just accepted thehead of communications and she's involved with both
one Soccer and the campl now.So the hope is that maybe a bit
of a younger, more progressive voicein there might know Laura she is just
(28:45):
that will help maybe address that.But she's also at the phone, so
she's from Ottawah. She must sheshould know that that market and that the
need right so hopefully this gets fixed. But right now, yeah, it's
if you don't speak French to Quebecers, if you don't even try, they're
they're not gonna respect you or lookto you very much. You I'll tell
(29:07):
you what, though, you doany level of effort, they'll they're very
thankful for that. So I justhave never understood why they've ignored this.
I have many concerns about about theleadership of the Campo in terms of their
decisions in the first three years,and they have not really lived up to
what they said they were going tobe. But you know, it's hard
for people to hear that sometimes becausewe all want the leagues to succeed so
(29:27):
much. The lack of French isa big part of that. The lack
of the female presence is a biggerpart of it. So you know this,
we're hitting them both right right here. And I'll be the stereotypical plus
American for a second. You wantthe most people possible to watch your league
in your broadcast, you ought tobe a bit You ought to make yourself
available to everybody in the country likeall the other sports too. They do
(29:49):
have in their In fact, theydo sometimes put some French broadcast up there.
They hired one French broadcast that theydo some the cast on one soccer,
so I shouldn't say that, butthere's no I get a coverage at
all like they, you know,will hire some translators occasionally to translate English
articles, which is not the same, but at any rate, and there
are like I've known Laura Armstrong fora while. If Laura, if you're
(30:11):
listening, we will miss you greatlyon this side of the ledger. Um,
best of luck in h in allyour work in your new job.
But she did terrific stuff covering women'sand men's soccer for for the Toronto Star,
which is the biggest daily city localbroadsheet in Toronto. She did a
great job for many years there.And look, there are a lot of
(30:33):
good people who work at One Soccer, who work with the knpl who create
content over there, people who youand I know Dwayne have known for a
long time, all m Oliver Platt, Christian Jack now Laura's. There are
a lot of good people who workon their TV broadcasts. Gareth Wheeler is
another one who you and I haveknown for a long time. Um,
(30:56):
but it's it's a whole. Aswe said, their lack of carverage in
French to cover Quebec, which isone of the most soccer mad soccer enthused,
pick your choice of word. Thesport is wildly popular in Montreal in
(31:19):
particular, and if I wasn't involvedin marketing, I would want to go
get that audience we've we've we've gonethat now around that point, around and
around enough times, I think,and let's let's take one quick moment,
Dwayne, before we called time onthis. We are I guess we're two
(31:41):
months out. There still a longways to go before the cock CAF Championships,
but we know the field now,we know the tournament is going to
be in Mexico, which is goingto add a very interesting dynamic to the
whole thing, especially the United Statesplaying Mexico in Mexico. In all the
games are in Monterey, in theMonterey area at t Grass's Stadium at Monterey
Stadium. They're great venues. Theywill be sold out. They will be
(32:05):
for the Mexico games from particular includingUSA Mexico. They will be definitely loud.
The United States as women have notplayed in an atmosphere like that in
an awfully long time, and itwill be fascinating to see how they do.
And and there are some interesting tweaksto this tournament. As we know,
it's qualifying for the twenty twenty threeWorld Cup, it's qualifying for the
(32:28):
twenty four Olympics. And here's thetwist. Only the team that wins the
whole tournament qualifies directly for the Olympics. That adds some steakes and some spice
to this thing that there. I'venever been before. And Wayne, what's
the conversation light going in Canada atthe moment about how you think it might
play out? Oh, I meanthe draw, it was a pretty normal
(32:50):
draw for Canada, Costa Rica andthe group which should be beatable. But
it's at semi final game. Asyou mentioned, when you put the home
field advantage in there, even makingthe final is not necessarily you know,
I guarantee now there's some second chanceto get to a World Cup. But
this is a team that's success hasbeen largely driven by its Olympic success,
and you know that's undeniable. It'sOlympic success. Three straight medals will defending
(33:14):
champions. Say what you want abouthow they did it. They're still the
defending champions, right and to nothave to have such a difficult path to
get back to do that again.As a real head, I think to
them, and you know, Ithink the US is going to be out
for a little bit of revenge.Um, they're still the clear favorite,
there's still the top dog out there. I mean, that's that's clearer.
I mean, maybe they couldn't usea little refreshing if the Olympics or something,
(33:35):
but they're gonna be angry about that, and they're gonna want to get
back to just a little Yeah,I don't think they're necessarily uh, they'll
they'll have that circle for another chanceto be candidate the game where they you
know, get back to the waythen then you're supposed to play out in
their mind right. So it's atough drop, um, And it's a
tough format. But that's good ina way too, because I think it's
(34:00):
good that Mexico will be a challenge. I think that they've been They were
the most disappointing team in the lastfew years for me. I expected them
to step up more. But youknow, to take my partisan that off
for a second and just look atthis for the growth of the game perspective.
It's kind of disappointing that Canada theUS we're still as far ahead as
they were in the last qualifying cycle. So you know, this allowed a
twist to it, and I thinkit's it's great for the region that it's
(34:21):
not going to be you know,in Florida or something again. Um,
with all due respect, we understandwhy so many tournaments are in the US,
but I don't think it's good foranyone, including the US, to
always play at home. So it'sa good challenge that way, and it's
it would be good for the growthof the region. You got to love
what the what the Mexican Mexing Federationis done with their lead down there,
and the success and the popularity ofit is wonderful to see. So this
is an opportunity for them to provethat that's working. And um, you
(34:45):
know, I've been saying it foryears that Canada needs to needs to look
over its shoulder a little bit becauseonce Mexico they ever get firing in the
whole cylinders and work at some ofthe issues that they've got in the past,
and you know, no guarantees anymoreto get the World Cup here.
Yeah, And for those who don'tknow or who have forgotten the way the
format of this tournament will work twogroups of four teams. Each Group A
(35:07):
is the USA, Mexico, Jamaicaand Haiti. It is easily the harder
of the two groups, even forthe United States, having to play both
Mexico and Jamaica. Group B isCanada, Costa Rica, Panama and Turn
it Out and Tobago. The toptwo teams in each group will qualify to
the World Cup and Wells as wellas advancing to the knockout stage the tournament.
The third place teams in each groupwill go to the inter confederation playoffs
(35:31):
for what will be a World Cupof thirty two teams, which is why
it's a lot easier now to qualifyout of CONCACAT for a World Cup than
it's ever been. And then inthe knockout rounds, the fund will really
start semifinals and then the final andthird place playoff. Only the winner of
(35:51):
the whole thing, as we said, qualifies directly for the twenty four Olympics
in France. The loser of thefinal and the winner of the third place
game will play a playoff for anotherbirth to the Olympics, which obviously has
not expanded the field whatsoever. Idon't know when that playoff is going to
(36:14):
be. I am scrambling and lookingit up. September of twenty three is
when it says the conk Calf Olympicplay in series is what it's called.
So I'm guessing I'm guessing that willbe home in a way, or at
least that was the idea when itall got started, when they came up
with these things. Dwayne, anythingwe've missed you think, no, that
about covers it, Jonathan. Ithink it's good to talk nay when soccer.
(36:37):
It's sort of got a with allthe excitement of the men's team up
here, I think are guilty ofnot talking enough about the Olympic champions So
I'm happy to have that opportunity,all right, Dwayne. Before we wrap
up, just one more thing.This is my last show in the host's
seat of the Women's Soccer Review.It's my decision, not anybody else's.
(36:59):
It's mine because I've just got somuch going on at the Inquiry at the
moment, including a little promotion thatI got recently. I think I've mentioned
to folks here over time that Iam also you know, I've also for
(37:19):
many many years, fifteen plus,i've been one of the editors of our
homepage, not just a reporter,and I finally have been promoted to just
being a reporter a full time now, which is going to allow me to
do a lot of great soccer features. It's going to allow me to dive
in on the w NBA, whichI did recently, as a number of
you have seen. I'm very excitedabout that. Just going to be some
changes to my time and commitments.Dwayne, you know I'm always happy to
(37:45):
be at your service for Soccer Todayor as a guest on anybody else,
as you guys would like. Thisis the forty fourth episode of the Women's
Soccer Review that I have hosted,going back to the very first one,
which was in twenty nineteen, ifmy memory's right up December of twenty nineteen
(38:07):
was the first one. Dwayne andI we're together on the first one,
and so we'll be together on thelast one that I am in the host's
chair for. And Dwayne, Iwish you and Kevin, both of you
guys, of course, are mydear friend. It's been far too long
since I've been in Toronto or Montreal, and I hope to fix that one
of these days. It's been agreat pleasure doing this. I've had a
(38:30):
lot of fun with it, andI thank you guys for the opportunity.
You're Walcome Johnson, You've always beenYou're probably the voice that's been on our
show is more than any other exceptfor our own of course, So we
do always thank you for your timeand your insight into the winning's game is
second to none. UM, there'sa quick an here, I'll put them.
Put it out there for anyone listening. UM, if you're interested in
(38:51):
this, we can help you alongwith the technical side of things. UM,
just sit me off an email.D G R O L L I
N S at gmail doc It's dgRowlands at the gmail dot com. End
me off an email. UM.I particularly am interested in in a female
voice to take the lead on thisproject because I think that you know that,
like too many podcasting networks out there, there's too many middle aged white
(39:14):
guys with their opinion. And I'mhappy to help. I'm happy to add
my insight. I've covered the women'sgame a long time, but I would
love to have a women's voice onthis show. So so give me an
email if you're listening to this,And you know, Canadian American doesn't matter
where you are. We do everythingremotely and we can we can maybe talk
from there well, and then Ilook forward hopefully to that happened. That's
(39:35):
something that I'm obviously and in fullsupport and I've been very happy for all
the that I've been able to bringso many of my friends and colleagues onto
this show over the you know,two and a half or so years that
it's been introducing some folks that maybesome people knew about or read before,
or maybe they had to bring themon and have some great conversations about the
(40:00):
women's game all the way around theworld. And so we will call time
right there. Dwayne and Kevin,thank you, guys, into all of
the listeners. Thank you also verymuch for listening to the Women's Soccer Review
here on the Sports Podcasting Network.I'm Jonathan tannenwald On, behalf of Dwayne
Rawlins and Kevin Laramy. We'll seeyou all down the road.
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