December 4, 2024 • 37 mins
Bestselling authors William and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Todd Fahnestock, author of Charlie Fiction and Falling to Fly: The Book to Read Before You Give Up on Your Writing Dream.
(0:00) Opening Thoughts
Bill, Lara, and Jesse discuss books that make great Christmas gifts.
(6:32) News
1) James Patterson Starts a Substack Newsletter
2) John Grisham is Involved in Controversy Over Use of Source Materials
(17:26) Craft Corner with Desiree Duffy
The owner of Black Chateau (terrific book marketing firm) and Books That Make You offers suggestions on what to prioritize when promoting your book.
(20:37) Interview with Todd Fahnestock
Todd is the author of numerous fantasy novels (most recently, Charlie Fiction) and Falling to Fly: The Book to Read Before You Give Up on Your Writing Dreams
(35:25)
Speaking of Substack newsletters, WriterCon has one too, and you can get it for free by subscribing on Substack here.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
(0:00) Opening Thoughts
Bill, Lara, and Jesse discuss books that make great Christmas gifts.
(6:32) News
1) James Patterson Starts a Substack Newsletter
2) John Grisham is Involved in Controversy Over Use of Source Materials
(17:26) Craft Corner with Desiree Duffy
The owner of Black Chateau (terrific book marketing firm) and Books That Make You offers suggestions on what to prioritize when promoting your book.
(20:37) Interview with Todd Fahnestock
Todd is the author of numerous fantasy novels (most recently, Charlie Fiction) and Falling to Fly: The Book to Read Before You Give Up on Your Writing Dreams
(35:25)
Speaking of Substack newsletters, WriterCon has one too, and you can get it for free by subscribing on Substack here.
Until next time, keep writing, and remember: You cannot fail, if you refuse to quit.
William Bernhardt
www.williambernhardt.com
www.writercon.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast, Gosh, I think if.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I had just one piece of advice, I would say, right,
I know that that seems really really basic, But it
seems to me that after having done this for decades,
the thing that I have to keep coming back to
to remind myself that is the most important is sit
down and do the work. Just sit down and do
the work. When you hate what you're doing, sit down
(00:26):
and do the work. When you love what you're doing,
sit down and do the work. And I think the
more you do that, the better you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want lnn Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thank you, Jesse or Rich Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
joining us again. This is our third first podcast for December,
and I know at my house people are already exchanging
Actually they started exchanging Christmas lists around August. I think
so I will ask my friends on the podcast here
(01:11):
to help those of you listening do your Christmas shopping,
and of course all I care about our books. Is
there a book maybe something totally obvious. Nobody gets to
give their own books for gifts, But is there a
gift that you like or thinking about giving, or that
you would recommend as a Christmas gift? Laura, how about you?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I usually give books to my nieces and nephews, so
I just check in to see where they're at in
their current interests or where they're out in the series
that they like, and I'll pick up the next one,
and then I'll get usually something that goes along with it,
something that's tied to the book in some way, a theme,
or if there's like pajamas with the characters on it,
(01:56):
something like that, to give it a little extra fun
Christmas spin to it as well. I know you said
we don't give our own gifts, but I actually had
someone at work recently discovered that I read books and
asked me to please bring a set because he has
a reader in mind that he wants to gift my
(02:20):
setup books for Christmas. It was yep, it was a surprise.
He just came barreling in and.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Was like, I just found out you write books so lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
But you have a particular book that you like to
give as a gift, or when you think everybody ought
to read.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Or something everybody out to read.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That doesn't have your name on it. Jesse, how about you?
What do you like to give?
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Yeah? Well normally I just asked the person if again
I know a lot. Yeah. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
There's something weird, especially in I don't know. I feel
like today it'd be weird to be like, I bought
you this book. I think you're going to like it.
Here now is gonna take up space in your house,
and so I would try to gauge first if I
think they will like it, or if it's from an
author they already like. If anyone watching or listening would
(03:14):
like to buy me a Hanika present, you are welcome
to buy one of the incredibly beautiful leather bound versions
of brand Samerson's Stormade Archives that go for like two
hundred dollars each.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
They're gorgeous. I can't afford them yet, but they are beautiful.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I think he should give us one as much as
we've given him.
Speaker 6 (03:33):
Listen, Brando, I know you're listening. I know your people
are listening. Send me a book.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
What about you what about you, Bill, What do you
think is the one go to perfect Christmas gift book?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
The book I've given more often than any other, which
sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, is The Princess Bride.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
I knew him, knew it. I was going to try
to guess before and I was like, it's give me
The Princess Bride.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
But go with me, because I know a lot of
people have seen the movie. And if you've seen the
movie and then go to the book, which is very different,
you may not, you know, may not get what you're expecting. If,
on the other hand, you're me and you'd written read
the book many times before the movie came along. To me,
the movie was like, you know, kind of a sitcom
(04:18):
version of the best parts of the book. But the
original book by William Goldman, is this wonderful kind of
it was metafictional before I think people were tossing that
word around like they do now, and and it is
all It has even got this introduction that involves him
and his wife and his son. Except the thing is
(04:40):
he doesn't actually have a son. He has two daughters.
And he asked his daughters what should my next book
be about? And one set of Princess and one set
of bride, which is where the title came from. And
it talks about his wife the psychiatrist. He doesn't have
a wife who's a psychiatrist, and none of this is true.
He's just got enough facts in there. Two ma make
(05:00):
it real. When he starts telling you about this book
he loved as a kid by s. Morgan Stern and
how now he's going to give you the good parts version,
and goes on and on with this basically extended end
joke that fills the function in the movie. They do
it with Peter Falk the uncle. And you know that's cute.
It's shorter, but it's not nearly as interesting as I
(05:22):
just say. If you haven't seen the book, if you
haven't seen the movie, you'll read the book first. Okay,
Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Todd Ferrenstock, the
multiple best selling author of many fantasy novels. While he
was still attending Colorado College, he published his first two
(05:43):
short stories, which Jesse, we're in TSR's dragon Lance anthologies.
I know you know what that is. And then in
two thousand and six he started writing longer work. He's
since published the best selling book, The Wishing World, which
kicked off a new series. His new book is Charlie Fiction,
a time travel urban fantasy novel involving a vengeful ghost
(06:07):
and an amni. And how do you say that? Amnesia
amnia time jumper? I mean, time travel would be bad enough,
but if you can't even remember anything when you get there,
that's got to be right. Anyway, That's what it's about.
He's going to somehow save the world. We're going to
talk about talk to Todd about that and so much more.
(06:29):
But first the news. I chose our first news story
(06:50):
for two important reasons. One it involves Substack, just like
our writer Con newsletter. And two it involves James Patterson.
I know, anytime I have an excuse to mention James Patterson,
Jesse will be happy about this. Well, James Patterson has
launched a substack newsletter.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
Has he or have his people doing it?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Well? Who? I mean, how would you know at this point?
But it's James Patterson unfiltered. This best selling author, who
by the way, now has four hundred and eighty million
books in print, has decided to launch a substack newsletter
(07:34):
called Hungry Dogs. The first issues out I got it.
I read it. And the reason Patterson, who is himself
seventy seven years old, is now starting a substack is
because he's had trouble getting his opinion pieces into major
news letters, newspapers rather, and that sometimes he can't say
(07:58):
what he wants to say, and he's bumped up against
other people with strong viewpoints. And he just wants the
idea of, as he says, not having to work for anybody,
no editors, no Hollywood producers. I want to do it
and do it well and talk about things. Some of
his topics it looks like, are going to be book banning.
(08:20):
You'll recall he was upset when his book was banned
in Florida, just as one of mine was. And he
wants to talk about the importance of education, which is terrific.
I just can't help but notice that we launched our
substack writer con newsletter, and now he's doing one. I mean,
is this guy just going to copy everything we do? Jesse?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
What do you think it's annoying that he keeps copying
things and then making more money from it than we are.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
That's right, He's like that people.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You probably got more subscribers the first day than we'll
have in our lifetime.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
But yeah, yeah, Again.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
While I hate his ghostwriting factor that he has, I do.
I am glad if he is going to use his
subject to talk about the issues he care about, which
are issues I also care about, which is education, book.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Banning, whatnot. So good for him in that regard, and
I'm glad he's actually writing. That's nice.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So I guess if you're wondering about the title hungry Dogs,
he says that comes from his grandmother who used to
tell him that hungry dogs run faster. It's six bucks
a month or fifty for a year. You'll get him
opinion pieces. And he's also promising interviews with people like
former President Bill Clinton and David Baldacci. We've had him,
(09:38):
but we haven't had Clinton. How could we get Clinton
on our podcast?
Speaker 6 (09:43):
That's a good question. He's got emails people, and just hope.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Do you have any friends, Laura? Do you know anybody
in the Clinton family or anything, or the Patterson family
for that matter.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Not to my knowledge, I think he.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Might all right. And if you, I just don't think
that sounds perfect for you. I got to remind you
that the writer Gun newsletter, which also contains The writer
con magazine is free, so just go to Substack and
subscribe and get a wealth of information to help you
(10:16):
with your writing career. News story number two, another huge
major light, John Grisham has caused some controversy. Let me
just say before I even start this story that I
slightly know John Grisham. We've worked on a couple of
projects together, and I think he is a prince. So
in no way is this story intended to be critical. Instead,
(10:41):
it's more like a cautionary tale, like a Smoky the
Bear announcement or something like that. Here's what's happened. The
New York Times and pro publica, the fact checking website,
are now asking Grisham to make changes to the attributions
and his most recent nonfiction book, which is called Framed
(11:04):
Astonishing True Stories of Wrongful Convictions. As some people might know,
he's written nonfiction at least once before, An Innocent Man,
which was about a case set in Oklahoma which was
clearly a wrongful conviction, and he's stayed with that. He
serves on boards, he's involved with the innocence projects, so
(11:26):
this is a subject he knows about. But the Times
and pro public are saying he went too far in
his use of their reporting on a murder case in Texas,
and they want changes made just to be clear. Nobody's
saying plagiarism, nobody's saying libel or any of the things
(11:47):
people writers normally get sued for. They, I guess just
want more footnotes or more mentioned in the bibliography, although
the book does already acknowledge in this case. There is
a two part series written by a very well respected
criminal justice reporter, Pamela Koloff, who has worked jointly for
(12:08):
both The Times and Pro Publica, which is why they're
the ones bringing the website. And she reported on the
now very disputed conviction of a man named Job Bryan,
who is found guilty of his wife's murder in nineteen
eighty five, even though there is evidence indicating that he
was one hundred and twenty miles away when it took place. Well,
(12:30):
Brian died sadly about a month ago, so some of
this is academic, but that doesn't address the issue being
raised in this website about the book. Let me give
you an example. There are several of these, but here's
one in Kuloff's original series. Here's the sentence her pink
(12:53):
nightgown was drawn up to the top of her thighs,
and she was naked from the waist down. But here's
the sentence in Grisham's work which basically swaps the two
independent clauses. She was naked from the waist down and
her pink knock gown was pulled up to her thighs.
(13:15):
You see the similarity. I don't think it constitutes plagiarism,
which people normally define on three or four or more
words the same. They've changed the words a little, and
they've reversed the order of the clauses. But obviously the
author of version two saw version one. So Laura, of
(13:38):
course I would go to you for a legal opinion
because that just makes sense. Do you think John Grisham
has done anything wrong here?
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Oof?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
So I actually have to discuss plagiarism in class that
I teach, and I mean in addition to when we
present to writers at conferences. But I'm not going to
say wrong. I do think it is the complaint that
(14:10):
that wasn't properly quoted and attributed to something else.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
So that's a good question because I was looking into
that when I prepared this story, and all I can
see is that they're asking in changes to attribution. And
now I am speaking as a lawyer, I mean that's
not even a cause of action. You can sue somebody
for plagiarism, you can sue somebody for libel, but inadequate attribution,
(14:37):
I'm not sure that's even a thing. Maybe they're saying
he exceeded fair use, but I don't know of anybody
whoever said, well, you need to mention us more in
the bibliography or add more footnotes or something.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
I saw something that similar in a paper that I
was graded. I would probably direct the student to do
better job of quoting, you know, putting it in quotes.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And yeah, make it a quote.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly make it a quote, and then indicate
where it came from in your work side and your references.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So well, that wasn't the only example, but that's by
way of, you know, just to toss one out there. Jesse,
what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I mean, if you're gonna use somebody's material, research, whatever
as a source, you have to you know, one, there
are like ap whatever rules for how to source things.
But also like make it clear that you did that
and that you're not stealing it, that you're using it
(15:43):
as inspiration, that's what like, you know, author's intros are
for and whatnot.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
So it feels like it's.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
One of the things where he just didn't do enough
giving credit to people and is now just getting defensive
because people are attacking you all right, as we all do.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So here's the smoky the Bear PSA that I'm sending
out all the writers listening to this, because you know,
when you're writing nonfiction you have to dig up facts.
And that's basically Grisham's response. He's saying, what we reported
or facts. Nobody owns facts, and that's true. I know
it can be frustrating for nonfiction writers who may spend
(16:22):
six months digging up a fact only to see somebody
else repeat it. That's frustrating. But whether you discovered the
fact or not, you still don't own it. But here's
what you should do. Writers, don't copy. Make it your own.
Sometimes people think, well, if I change every sixth word
or you know, flip the clauses, that makes it your own.
(16:43):
It doesn't. You've got a big vocabulary, rewrite it and
make it your own. And for heaven's sake, when you're
making your bibliography, be generous, err on the side of inclusiveness.
Inclusiveness right, Okay, Well, today in corner we have Desiree Duffy,
a longtime friend of this podcast. She's Got She of
(17:06):
course runs Black Chateau and Books That Make You. She
is the go to expert on the subject of bookmarketing marketing,
and since we're rapidly approaching the new year, she's going
to offer some tips on marketing your book in the
coming year. In the new year, take it away, Desiree.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Craft quarter.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
When people ask me what is the number one thing
that I can do marketing wise to ensure the success
of my book, I tell them, write a good one.
Here's the deal. The secret to your books marketing success
is crafting and engaging page turning, well written, captivating story
(17:55):
or idea, whether it be fiction or nonfiction. That's what
sets your book up for marketing success. I often say
I can lead a horse to water, but I can't
make them drink. Marketing can lead people to your book,
but if it doesn't grab them, nothing that I do
will make them buy it. Here are the key points
(18:18):
to making sure your book is engaging right from the beginning.
First of all, that first chapter. Heck, I actually like
to work it backward. The first page, the first paragraph,
all the way to that very first sentence needs to
make them want to keep reading on. If they don't,
(18:39):
why would they want to buy your book? The description,
what they read when they flip around to the back
cover or the Amazon description or any retail description. That's
also the key to making them want to grab that copy. Punchy,
poignant descriptions that answer the question what will I get
(19:03):
out of this book? That's what you're going for. We
are human beings, and as human beings, we are all
a little bit selfish. We always want to know what's
in it for me, and that's what you need to
convey to your potential reader. The other thing the cover.
The title, adhering to genre expectations, the look and the
(19:26):
feel should promise the reader something as well. Don't go
against genre expectations, or if you do, do so at
your own risk. You don't want to confuse the reader.
And above all else, please be professional in your cover design,
especially if you're an indie author or self publishing. Here's
(19:47):
what you can do. Assess your book, just like the
reader does. What happens when you hold up your book.
How does that title, the cover design, that back cover
description or maybe any blurbs, the author bio. What does
that convey to the reader? What's to tell them about?
(20:07):
What is in it for them when they flip to
that first chapter and begin reading. What keeps them hooked
from beginning to end? To make them want to keep
reading and therefore by your book. I'm Desiree Duffy, founder
of black Chat told the Book Fest and Books that
Make You. Thank you to William Bernhardt and writer Con
(20:29):
for inviting me to share this for you and for
everything that you do for the writing community.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Thank you so much, Desiree. Now let's talk to Toddfernsdot Todd,
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Thank you, thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Thanks for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what we be?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Gosh? I think if I had just one piece of advice,
I would say, right, I know that that seems really
really basic, but it seems to me that, you know,
after having done this for decades, the thing that I
have to keep coming back to to remind myself that
is the most important is sit down and do the work.
Just sit down and do the work. When you hate
(21:24):
what you're doing, sit down and do the work. When
you love what you're doing, sit down and do the work.
And I think the more you do that, the better
you're gonna get. I have a great story on that.
You wanted to tell you this really quick anecdote. Okay,
So once I was listening to Jodie Thomas, who's this
fantastic author, and she was talking about how, uh, sometimes
(21:45):
the Muse is singing to you right and you're just like,
you know everything's coming and you're writing, brilliance is just
all flowing from your fingertips, and sometimes it feels like
you're just mucking out a horse stall. It's like everything
is horrible. And she said that at one point she
decided that she was going to just keep writing through
(22:05):
the horse stall mucking process as well as the angel singing,
and then when she got done after two months, she
was just going to go back and remove all the
bad stuff. And she said what she discovered was she
went back and she couldn't find the bad stuff. So
her takeaway from that was your writing skill goes on
an angle like this. If you keep writing, it will
(22:26):
keep getting better and better and better. Your emotions about
your writing go like this. So so my advice is
just write, get back to the keyboard, and keep writing.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, that's great advice. Okay, you worked a lot of
jobs before you got to publishing stories or books I did.
Here's the one that stood out for me. You were
a video arcade manager in Durngo. I only mentioned this
because Laura and I go to Durango almost every year.
(22:59):
We've got a family cabin out there. But where's the
video arcade?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Well, you have to remember we're talking ancient history. I mean,
you say video game video arcade attendant. I mean, come on,
how long has it been since we've had video arcades
at all? Right, So this was back Gosh, when was
that nineteen ninety I want to say, so it was
in the It was in the Durango mall out there
in Bodo Park or what was once?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
And I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, you
have to have a cool sheet music shop.
Speaker 6 (23:29):
I love that, But I love that mall.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That was like, clearly it was my favorite mall. I
was an attendant there and so yeah, it was Bally's
Aladdin's Castle and I came in as this little neophyte.
That was actually, interestingly, where I first was recommended reading
Enders Game by Orson Scott Card, which is my favorite
novel of all time. I love that novel, and that
was where I first picked it up. And I learned
(23:53):
how to play cyberball, which you know, those of you
who play Call of Duty and all these new fangled
you know, Assassin's Creed. I probably have never even heard
of cyberball. But one of my greatest accomplishments is that
I went in, I watched this guy who was an
expert cyberball player, and I worked there for six months,
and by the time I left on my last day,
(24:13):
this guy, who was a college student locally came back
into play and played me, and I beat him by
like three points.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It was.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It was one of the greatest victories.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Of my whole life. Sounds well, and I know you
love board games too, but we'll get to that in
just a second.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Were you thinking about writing back then, when you were
that long ago? How long you wanted to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah? Yeah, so that would have been when I was
twenty and I started my very first novel when I
was eighteen years old. I yeah, I was in I
was in my It was my independent study class in
my senior year of high school. And I loved reading
fantasy novels as a big Terry Brooks fan still am,
of course, you know Peers, Anthony, Margaret Weiss, and Tracy
(25:02):
Hickman dragonlance novels. I loved all of that stuff, and
even through that, I was like, I want to write
a fantasy novel with more action in it.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
That was my thing.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I wanted more action in my fantasy novel. And it's
interesting that now brand, My brand is Edge of your
Seat epic Fantasy, so I clearly I stuck to that.
That was something that was important to me back then,
still important to me now.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, fantastic. So now you've written a book called Falling
to Fly, right, Yes, that's nonfiction. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, so that's this. I've got one right in front
of me here, this one right here, the book to
read before you give up on your writing dream, and
essentially a great story about this book. It's not like
the other how to writing books out there. It was
supposed to be, and I utterly failed to write writing
how to book, which I think goes really well with
the title Falling to Fly essentially this story I was
(25:56):
supposed to be everything I knew about constructing story and
writing story, and I was putting it together. But one
of my favorite writing how two books is Stephen King's
On Writing and he starts off like it's split into
two components. On writing is Stephen King's thing. The first
one is what he calls his CV, and the second
one is what he calls his toolbox. And the first
(26:18):
one is all these anecdotes from his life that talk about,
you know, how he came to be the writer that
he is. And he starts off by saying, this is
not an autobiography and then proceeds to write an autobiography.
I thought that was a really slick, like He's like,
this is not an ot of our this is my CV,
this is my curriculum of to day and it yeah,
and it was totally an autobiography, but you know, but
(26:39):
I really I love that part of it the most.
So I wanted to tell what I knew about writing
in stories, and so these anecdotes from my life and
when I learned how to you know, stick to it
when it comes to writing and get my butt in
the chair and write. When I learned to create character
arcs when I learned to, you know, appreciate other people's
(27:00):
structures like Save the Cat, right, So I started off
with that in mind, and what it ended up being
was more of an inspirational I go into. I mean
it's like, have you ever read Kitchen Confidential by Anthony
Bourdain where he kind of goes behind the scenes of
his progress as a as a cook. Well, anyways, if
you haven't, you should read. It's a fabulous book. But
(27:21):
this is like Kitchen Confidential for the publishing industry. I
talk about all of my failures, Yeah, all of my successes,
all the places I fell on my face. I mean
it really is ninety percent me falling on my face
in this book, which I think people appreciate, right, I
mean like fly exactly. So that's what it ended up being.
And I almost scrapped the project. I almost threw it
(27:43):
away because it was nothing like what I wanted. And
my assistant, the wonderful Beca Gardner, she was like, what
what are you talking about. I'm like, well, this didn't
end up the way that I wanted it to be,
So I'm gonna scrap this project. I'm gonna pull maybe
thirty percent of it and use it. She's like no,
and that was the first time she'd ever gone no,
And I was like, what what do you mean No.
She's like, no, no, no, No, this is exactly what it
(28:04):
needs to be. This book is the book that every
reader or every writer needs to read. I'm like, no,
it's a scrubby, crappy version of what I was trying
to do. She's like, yeah, but you did something different.
You did something you weren't expecting to do, but it's
so so impactful to me. Now here's what I want
you to do. She's like, I tell you what if
you think I'm wrong, and I think I'm right, Let's
(28:25):
get together six of your super fans. We'll get them
on a zoom call, and we'll put you on the
zoom call, but you will be muted and your screen
will be blacked out. You don't get to respond, and
we get to have them read it before they get
on the call and then talk about it. And she
did that, and every single one of them loved it.
And that was the first time I've ever been like, Okay,
I guess I'll keep it and the rest is history.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
So yeah, that's a partner you need to keep forever
for sure. Now we got to talk about your fiction
because you've been such a phenomenally successful fiction writer. You've
just released your fifth book in the Eldros fantasy series
and it's not even your first series, right, No tell
us about the new book though.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, So the new one is this book here, Bane
of Giants. I'm not sure if that's actually focusing up
on that, but whatever, you can see it. Yeah, okay,
So Bane of Giants is the fifth and final in
the Eldress Legacy Legacy of Shadows storyline. Now, Eldros Legacy
is this fantastic collective where we pulled four different founding
authors and about ten other cohort authors to write in
(29:30):
this world. There were five different content continents. Four of
them were founded by the four founders, and then the
cohort authors chose which continents they wanted to write it.
And it's this big kind of collaborative project. And my
story is the first one to be completed in its entirety,
and the other stories are still in progress right now.
So that's what Eldross Legacy is. And the first book
(29:53):
in eld In my storyline of Eldros Legacy starts with
kaivin The Unkillable and and it's just this fantastic sword
and sorcery romp through a world that used to be
ruled by these fifteen foot tall, highly intelligent, highly magical
giants until about two thousand years ago when humans learned
(30:17):
how to use magic and overthrew their overlords. Well, the
giants fifty percent of them were killed, fifty percent of
them fled and magically vanished. And the story opens up
when they've decided it's time for them to take back
their world. And so this group of heroes, this group
of five sort of dungeons and dragon style heroes. We've
got a warrior, a rogue, a ranger, a paladin, and
(30:40):
a magic user that are all from different walks of
life come together to stop the end of the world.
So that's the beginning of the Eldress Legacy, and Bane
of Giants is the culmination of that storyline.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Now, what does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Us?
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Absolutely, Well, do you want me to tell you what
the typical ideal writing day is for me or what
is an actual typical Okay.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
Would also differ, but I think it's inspirational for our listeners,
many of them are aspiring writers, to hear what it's really.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Like outstanding well. So today I got up. I walked
five miles in the snow. That's part of my routine.
I kind of clear my head. I start thinking about ideas.
I talk with my assistant. She's very good when it
comes to bouncing ideas off of her, and I help
her with any questions she has about her writing that
(31:38):
she's starting to take off. You watch Becka Lee Gardner
is going to be one of the people on this
podcast pretty soon. Keep an eye on her. Anyways. Then
I got back. I did twenty minute hit workout, high
intensity interval training workout, then showered, have my breakfast, watched
about a quarter of a movie. I try and get
my brain in the mode of storytelling, so I always
(31:59):
watch movies while I'm making breakfasts, which is usually broccoli, mushrooms, onions,
and an egg. That's that's kind of my breakfast routine.
And then I came up and I started editing on
one of my audio books, which I'm the voice talent
for most of my audio books, and I need to
get this one edited very soon. So I edited a
(32:19):
couple chapters on that. Then I recorded a couple chapters
on a different book that I'm working on, and then
I wrote my newsletter, which went out about fifteen minutes ago.
So that's then I went shopping because you know, I'm
the stay at home part of.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
It, not the only ones who work on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, so yeah, that's pretty much that I came home.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yeah, so the so the writing part would you would
you say that you are a panther or a planner?
It sounds like maybe today was not a writing day
that you were doing other part of your author business work,
which we totally understand. But when you are gearing up
to write in a book, are you a panser or
(33:02):
are you a planner?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Okay, so I'm a diide in the wool pantser. However,
I have spent a lot of time and effort to
understand different kinds of plotting techniques just so that you know.
I think it's important to know everything right, whether you
choose to use it or not. The more you know,
the better off you're gonna be. So yeah, I'm what
my assistant calls a tsunami writer, which I have tried
(33:27):
my whole life to be more of like a I'm
gonna get up, I'm gonna write one thousand, three hundred
and twenty five words, And tomorrow I'm gonna get up
and I'm gona write one thousand, three hundred and twenty five.
I can't do that. Like I get up and I
will write a thousand words. That's that's like my baseline goal.
And most often I'll hit fifteen hundred, two thousand. Sometimes
when I'm getting close to the end of the book,
I will hit six thousand, seven thousand, eight thousand words
(33:48):
in a day, depending on how deep in the project
I am. But probably I don't know. There are probably
some writers out there who have the perfect system. This
is not the perfect system for me. I keep trying
to get better at it, and I keep trying to
up my game. But generally speaking, I write about fifteen
hundred words a day, even on Saturdays and Sundays, but
just today I haven't quite gotten around to it. Usually
(34:10):
I write in the morning, but maybe today it's going
to be in the evening.
Speaker 6 (34:12):
Good be.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Speaking as somebody who's interviewed a lot of writers now
with this podcast, No, I don't think there is a
perfect writer with a perfect day out there. Anywhere.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
The perfect writing system is the one that works for you.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
H There you go.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
We have to be flexible because life happens and other
work might take our attention away for a little bit,
and the important thing is to keep coming back to it.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Right, absolutely, Todd. We have to wrap this up. One
last question, what's next? You're ending El DROs and done
the nonfiction. Why do we look forward to in the future.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Well, I have fans clamoring for more Tower of the Four.
That was a series I started before I got into
the Eldress Legacy project, and then the Eldress Legacy just
took me away. It just swept me away, and I
did five books in a row on that series. So
now I'm coming back. I just finished the third and
the fourth and final in that series. I'm gonna try
and get a rough draft hammered out before the end
(35:11):
of the year. We'll see how that goes. So that's
my project that I'm working on next.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Sounds fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being on
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Just a few parting words. Since I've already mentioned the newsletter,
I should remind you again the writer Con has its
own free newsletter which comes out every month, sometimes several
times a month, and occasionally contains the writer Con magazine
as a free add on. Plus, I sometimes put the
podcast in there and the wealth of information before we
(36:04):
have time to get it into a podcast or on
the writer con Facebook groups. And it's free. So go
to substack search for writer conmag dot com, writer conmag
dot substack dot com. I'll put it in the show notes.
That's how you sign up. Let me also remember remind
(36:24):
you since we're in December now, there are some Christmas
books other than the ones we mentioned before that you
might want to take a look at. I wrote a
Christmas novel a few years back called The Midnight Before Christmas,
and it's one of my favorite books that I've ever written.
Last year, I contributed to an anthology called Christmas Tapestry,
(36:45):
which I thought was wonderful because each of the contributing
authors did a Christmas story with their series characters. So
I've got a Kinsey Rivera story in there, and the
others are using their series characters. Laura, You've got a
Christmas book too, don't you.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Christmas Spirit yep.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Part of the Wantland Follil series.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It is.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
It's book five, but if you start reading now, you're
sure to be able to at that by Christmas.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Whip through one through four so that you can do
five in time for Christmas. Absolutely all right, until next time, everybody,
keep writing and remember you cannot fail if you refused
to quit. Bye bye
This week on the writer Con podcast, Gosh, I think if.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I had just one piece of advice, I would say, right,
I know that that seems really really basic, But it
seems to me that after having done this for decades,
the thing that I have to keep coming back to
to remind myself that is the most important is sit
down and do the work. Just sit down and do
the work. When you hate what you're doing, sit down
(00:26):
and do the work. When you love what you're doing,
sit down and do the work. And I think the
more you do that, the better you're going to get.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want lnn Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Thank you, Jesse or Rich Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
joining us again. This is our third first podcast for December,
and I know at my house people are already exchanging
Actually they started exchanging Christmas lists around August. I think
so I will ask my friends on the podcast here
(01:11):
to help those of you listening do your Christmas shopping,
and of course all I care about our books. Is
there a book maybe something totally obvious. Nobody gets to
give their own books for gifts, But is there a
gift that you like or thinking about giving, or that
you would recommend as a Christmas gift? Laura, how about you?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
I usually give books to my nieces and nephews, so
I just check in to see where they're at in
their current interests or where they're out in the series
that they like, and I'll pick up the next one,
and then I'll get usually something that goes along with it,
something that's tied to the book in some way, a theme,
or if there's like pajamas with the characters on it,
(01:56):
something like that, to give it a little extra fun
Christmas spin to it as well. I know you said
we don't give our own gifts, but I actually had
someone at work recently discovered that I read books and
asked me to please bring a set because he has
a reader in mind that he wants to gift my
(02:20):
setup books for Christmas. It was yep, it was a surprise.
He just came barreling in and.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Was like, I just found out you write books so lovely.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
But you have a particular book that you like to
give as a gift, or when you think everybody ought
to read.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Or something everybody out to read.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That doesn't have your name on it. Jesse, how about you?
What do you like to give?
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Yeah? Well normally I just asked the person if again
I know a lot. Yeah. Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
There's something weird, especially in I don't know. I feel
like today it'd be weird to be like, I bought
you this book. I think you're going to like it.
Here now is gonna take up space in your house,
and so I would try to gauge first if I
think they will like it, or if it's from an
author they already like. If anyone watching or listening would
(03:14):
like to buy me a Hanika present, you are welcome
to buy one of the incredibly beautiful leather bound versions
of brand Samerson's Stormade Archives that go for like two
hundred dollars each.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
They're gorgeous. I can't afford them yet, but they are beautiful.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I think he should give us one as much as
we've given him.
Speaker 6 (03:33):
Listen, Brando, I know you're listening. I know your people
are listening. Send me a book.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
What about you what about you, Bill, What do you
think is the one go to perfect Christmas gift book?
Speaker 3 (03:45):
The book I've given more often than any other, which
sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, is The Princess Bride.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
I knew him, knew it. I was going to try
to guess before and I was like, it's give me
The Princess Bride.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
But go with me, because I know a lot of
people have seen the movie. And if you've seen the
movie and then go to the book, which is very different,
you may not, you know, may not get what you're expecting. If,
on the other hand, you're me and you'd written read
the book many times before the movie came along. To me,
the movie was like, you know, kind of a sitcom
(04:18):
version of the best parts of the book. But the
original book by William Goldman, is this wonderful kind of
it was metafictional before I think people were tossing that
word around like they do now, and and it is
all It has even got this introduction that involves him
and his wife and his son. Except the thing is
(04:40):
he doesn't actually have a son. He has two daughters.
And he asked his daughters what should my next book
be about? And one set of Princess and one set
of bride, which is where the title came from. And
it talks about his wife the psychiatrist. He doesn't have
a wife who's a psychiatrist, and none of this is true.
He's just got enough facts in there. Two ma make
(05:00):
it real. When he starts telling you about this book
he loved as a kid by s. Morgan Stern and
how now he's going to give you the good parts version,
and goes on and on with this basically extended end
joke that fills the function in the movie. They do
it with Peter Falk the uncle. And you know that's cute.
It's shorter, but it's not nearly as interesting as I
(05:22):
just say. If you haven't seen the book, if you
haven't seen the movie, you'll read the book first. Okay,
Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Todd Ferrenstock, the
multiple best selling author of many fantasy novels. While he
was still attending Colorado College, he published his first two
(05:43):
short stories, which Jesse, we're in TSR's dragon Lance anthologies.
I know you know what that is. And then in
two thousand and six he started writing longer work. He's
since published the best selling book, The Wishing World, which
kicked off a new series. His new book is Charlie Fiction,
a time travel urban fantasy novel involving a vengeful ghost
(06:07):
and an amni. And how do you say that? Amnesia
amnia time jumper? I mean, time travel would be bad enough,
but if you can't even remember anything when you get there,
that's got to be right. Anyway, That's what it's about.
He's going to somehow save the world. We're going to
talk about talk to Todd about that and so much more.
(06:29):
But first the news. I chose our first news story
(06:50):
for two important reasons. One it involves Substack, just like
our writer Con newsletter. And two it involves James Patterson.
I know, anytime I have an excuse to mention James Patterson,
Jesse will be happy about this. Well, James Patterson has
launched a substack newsletter.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
Has he or have his people doing it?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Well? Who? I mean, how would you know at this point?
But it's James Patterson unfiltered. This best selling author, who
by the way, now has four hundred and eighty million
books in print, has decided to launch a substack newsletter
(07:34):
called Hungry Dogs. The first issues out I got it.
I read it. And the reason Patterson, who is himself
seventy seven years old, is now starting a substack is
because he's had trouble getting his opinion pieces into major
news letters, newspapers rather, and that sometimes he can't say
(07:58):
what he wants to say, and he's bumped up against
other people with strong viewpoints. And he just wants the
idea of, as he says, not having to work for anybody,
no editors, no Hollywood producers. I want to do it
and do it well and talk about things. Some of
his topics it looks like, are going to be book banning.
(08:20):
You'll recall he was upset when his book was banned
in Florida, just as one of mine was. And he
wants to talk about the importance of education, which is terrific.
I just can't help but notice that we launched our
substack writer con newsletter, and now he's doing one. I mean,
is this guy just going to copy everything we do? Jesse?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
What do you think it's annoying that he keeps copying
things and then making more money from it than we are.
Speaker 6 (08:48):
That's right, He's like that people.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
You probably got more subscribers the first day than we'll
have in our lifetime.
Speaker 6 (08:55):
But yeah, yeah, Again.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
While I hate his ghostwriting factor that he has, I do.
I am glad if he is going to use his
subject to talk about the issues he care about, which
are issues I also care about, which is education, book.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
Banning, whatnot. So good for him in that regard, and
I'm glad he's actually writing. That's nice.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So I guess if you're wondering about the title hungry Dogs,
he says that comes from his grandmother who used to
tell him that hungry dogs run faster. It's six bucks
a month or fifty for a year. You'll get him
opinion pieces. And he's also promising interviews with people like
former President Bill Clinton and David Baldacci. We've had him,
(09:38):
but we haven't had Clinton. How could we get Clinton
on our podcast?
Speaker 6 (09:43):
That's a good question. He's got emails people, and just hope.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Do you have any friends, Laura? Do you know anybody
in the Clinton family or anything, or the Patterson family
for that matter.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Not to my knowledge, I think he.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Might all right. And if you, I just don't think
that sounds perfect for you. I got to remind you
that the writer Gun newsletter, which also contains The writer
con magazine is free, so just go to Substack and
subscribe and get a wealth of information to help you
(10:16):
with your writing career. News story number two, another huge
major light, John Grisham has caused some controversy. Let me
just say before I even start this story that I
slightly know John Grisham. We've worked on a couple of
projects together, and I think he is a prince. So
in no way is this story intended to be critical. Instead,
(10:41):
it's more like a cautionary tale, like a Smoky the
Bear announcement or something like that. Here's what's happened. The
New York Times and pro publica, the fact checking website,
are now asking Grisham to make changes to the attributions
and his most recent nonfiction book, which is called Framed
(11:04):
Astonishing True Stories of Wrongful Convictions. As some people might know,
he's written nonfiction at least once before, An Innocent Man,
which was about a case set in Oklahoma which was
clearly a wrongful conviction, and he's stayed with that. He
serves on boards, he's involved with the innocence projects, so
(11:26):
this is a subject he knows about. But the Times
and pro public are saying he went too far in
his use of their reporting on a murder case in Texas,
and they want changes made just to be clear. Nobody's
saying plagiarism, nobody's saying libel or any of the things
(11:47):
people writers normally get sued for. They, I guess just
want more footnotes or more mentioned in the bibliography, although
the book does already acknowledge in this case. There is
a two part series written by a very well respected
criminal justice reporter, Pamela Koloff, who has worked jointly for
(12:08):
both The Times and Pro Publica, which is why they're
the ones bringing the website. And she reported on the
now very disputed conviction of a man named Job Bryan,
who is found guilty of his wife's murder in nineteen
eighty five, even though there is evidence indicating that he
was one hundred and twenty miles away when it took place. Well,
(12:30):
Brian died sadly about a month ago, so some of
this is academic, but that doesn't address the issue being
raised in this website about the book. Let me give
you an example. There are several of these, but here's
one in Kuloff's original series. Here's the sentence her pink
(12:53):
nightgown was drawn up to the top of her thighs,
and she was naked from the waist down. But here's
the sentence in Grisham's work which basically swaps the two
independent clauses. She was naked from the waist down and
her pink knock gown was pulled up to her thighs.
(13:15):
You see the similarity. I don't think it constitutes plagiarism,
which people normally define on three or four or more
words the same. They've changed the words a little, and
they've reversed the order of the clauses. But obviously the
author of version two saw version one. So Laura, of
(13:38):
course I would go to you for a legal opinion
because that just makes sense. Do you think John Grisham
has done anything wrong here?
Speaker 6 (13:49):
Oof?
Speaker 4 (13:50):
So I actually have to discuss plagiarism in class that
I teach, and I mean in addition to when we
present to writers at conferences. But I'm not going to
say wrong. I do think it is the complaint that
(14:10):
that wasn't properly quoted and attributed to something else.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
So that's a good question because I was looking into
that when I prepared this story, and all I can
see is that they're asking in changes to attribution. And
now I am speaking as a lawyer, I mean that's
not even a cause of action. You can sue somebody
for plagiarism, you can sue somebody for libel, but inadequate attribution,
(14:37):
I'm not sure that's even a thing. Maybe they're saying
he exceeded fair use, but I don't know of anybody
whoever said, well, you need to mention us more in
the bibliography or add more footnotes or something.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
I saw something that similar in a paper that I
was graded. I would probably direct the student to do
better job of quoting, you know, putting it in quotes.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
And yeah, make it a quote.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, yeah, exactly make it a quote, and then indicate
where it came from in your work side and your references.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So well, that wasn't the only example, but that's by
way of, you know, just to toss one out there. Jesse,
what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
I mean, if you're gonna use somebody's material, research, whatever
as a source, you have to you know, one, there
are like ap whatever rules for how to source things.
But also like make it clear that you did that
and that you're not stealing it, that you're using it
(15:43):
as inspiration, that's what like, you know, author's intros are
for and whatnot.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
So it feels like it's.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
One of the things where he just didn't do enough
giving credit to people and is now just getting defensive
because people are attacking you all right, as we all do.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
So here's the smoky the Bear PSA that I'm sending
out all the writers listening to this, because you know,
when you're writing nonfiction you have to dig up facts.
And that's basically Grisham's response. He's saying, what we reported
or facts. Nobody owns facts, and that's true. I know
it can be frustrating for nonfiction writers who may spend
(16:22):
six months digging up a fact only to see somebody
else repeat it. That's frustrating. But whether you discovered the
fact or not, you still don't own it. But here's
what you should do. Writers, don't copy. Make it your own.
Sometimes people think, well, if I change every sixth word
or you know, flip the clauses, that makes it your own.
(16:43):
It doesn't. You've got a big vocabulary, rewrite it and
make it your own. And for heaven's sake, when you're
making your bibliography, be generous, err on the side of inclusiveness.
Inclusiveness right, Okay, Well, today in corner we have Desiree Duffy,
a longtime friend of this podcast. She's Got She of
(17:06):
course runs Black Chateau and Books That Make You. She
is the go to expert on the subject of bookmarketing marketing,
and since we're rapidly approaching the new year, she's going
to offer some tips on marketing your book in the
coming year. In the new year, take it away, Desiree.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Craft quarter.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
When people ask me what is the number one thing
that I can do marketing wise to ensure the success
of my book, I tell them, write a good one.
Here's the deal. The secret to your books marketing success
is crafting and engaging page turning, well written, captivating story
(17:55):
or idea, whether it be fiction or nonfiction. That's what
sets your book up for marketing success. I often say
I can lead a horse to water, but I can't
make them drink. Marketing can lead people to your book,
but if it doesn't grab them, nothing that I do
will make them buy it. Here are the key points
(18:18):
to making sure your book is engaging right from the beginning.
First of all, that first chapter. Heck, I actually like
to work it backward. The first page, the first paragraph,
all the way to that very first sentence needs to
make them want to keep reading on. If they don't,
(18:39):
why would they want to buy your book? The description,
what they read when they flip around to the back
cover or the Amazon description or any retail description. That's
also the key to making them want to grab that copy. Punchy,
poignant descriptions that answer the question what will I get
(19:03):
out of this book? That's what you're going for. We
are human beings, and as human beings, we are all
a little bit selfish. We always want to know what's
in it for me, and that's what you need to
convey to your potential reader. The other thing the cover.
The title, adhering to genre expectations, the look and the
(19:26):
feel should promise the reader something as well. Don't go
against genre expectations, or if you do, do so at
your own risk. You don't want to confuse the reader.
And above all else, please be professional in your cover design,
especially if you're an indie author or self publishing. Here's
(19:47):
what you can do. Assess your book, just like the
reader does. What happens when you hold up your book.
How does that title, the cover design, that back cover
description or maybe any blurbs, the author bio. What does
that convey to the reader? What's to tell them about?
(20:07):
What is in it for them when they flip to
that first chapter and begin reading. What keeps them hooked
from beginning to end? To make them want to keep
reading and therefore by your book. I'm Desiree Duffy, founder
of black Chat told the Book Fest and Books that
Make You. Thank you to William Bernhardt and writer Con
(20:29):
for inviting me to share this for you and for
everything that you do for the writing community.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Thank you so much, Desiree. Now let's talk to Toddfernsdot Todd,
Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Thank you, thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Thanks for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
could offer writers one piece of advice, what we be?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Gosh? I think if I had just one piece of advice,
I would say, right, I know that that seems really
really basic, but it seems to me that, you know,
after having done this for decades, the thing that I
have to keep coming back to to remind myself that
is the most important is sit down and do the work.
Just sit down and do the work. When you hate
(21:24):
what you're doing, sit down and do the work. When
you love what you're doing, sit down and do the work.
And I think the more you do that, the better
you're gonna get. I have a great story on that.
You wanted to tell you this really quick anecdote. Okay,
So once I was listening to Jodie Thomas, who's this
fantastic author, and she was talking about how, uh, sometimes
(21:45):
the Muse is singing to you right and you're just like,
you know everything's coming and you're writing, brilliance is just
all flowing from your fingertips, and sometimes it feels like
you're just mucking out a horse stall. It's like everything
is horrible. And she said that at one point she
decided that she was going to just keep writing through
(22:05):
the horse stall mucking process as well as the angel singing,
and then when she got done after two months, she
was just going to go back and remove all the
bad stuff. And she said what she discovered was she
went back and she couldn't find the bad stuff. So
her takeaway from that was your writing skill goes on
an angle like this. If you keep writing, it will
(22:26):
keep getting better and better and better. Your emotions about
your writing go like this. So so my advice is
just write, get back to the keyboard, and keep writing.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, that's great advice. Okay, you worked a lot of
jobs before you got to publishing stories or books I did.
Here's the one that stood out for me. You were
a video arcade manager in Durngo. I only mentioned this
because Laura and I go to Durango almost every year.
(22:59):
We've got a family cabin out there. But where's the
video arcade?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Well, you have to remember we're talking ancient history. I mean,
you say video game video arcade attendant. I mean, come on,
how long has it been since we've had video arcades
at all? Right, So this was back Gosh, when was
that nineteen ninety I want to say, so it was
in the It was in the Durango mall out there
in Bodo Park or what was once?
Speaker 3 (23:25):
And I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, you
have to have a cool sheet music shop.
Speaker 6 (23:29):
I love that, But I love that mall.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That was like, clearly it was my favorite mall. I
was an attendant there and so yeah, it was Bally's
Aladdin's Castle and I came in as this little neophyte.
That was actually, interestingly, where I first was recommended reading
Enders Game by Orson Scott Card, which is my favorite
novel of all time. I love that novel, and that
was where I first picked it up. And I learned
(23:53):
how to play cyberball, which you know, those of you
who play Call of Duty and all these new fangled
you know, Assassin's Creed. I probably have never even heard
of cyberball. But one of my greatest accomplishments is that
I went in, I watched this guy who was an
expert cyberball player, and I worked there for six months,
and by the time I left on my last day,
(24:13):
this guy, who was a college student locally came back
into play and played me, and I beat him by
like three points.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
It was.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
It was one of the greatest victories.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Of my whole life. Sounds well, and I know you
love board games too, but we'll get to that in
just a second.
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Were you thinking about writing back then, when you were
that long ago? How long you wanted to be a writer?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah? Yeah, so that would have been when I was
twenty and I started my very first novel when I
was eighteen years old. I yeah, I was in I
was in my It was my independent study class in
my senior year of high school. And I loved reading
fantasy novels as a big Terry Brooks fan still am,
of course, you know Peers, Anthony, Margaret Weiss, and Tracy
(25:02):
Hickman dragonlance novels. I loved all of that stuff, and
even through that, I was like, I want to write
a fantasy novel with more action in it.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
That was my thing.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I wanted more action in my fantasy novel. And it's
interesting that now brand, My brand is Edge of your
Seat epic Fantasy, so I clearly I stuck to that.
That was something that was important to me back then,
still important to me now.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, fantastic. So now you've written a book called Falling
to Fly, right, Yes, that's nonfiction. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, so that's this. I've got one right in front
of me here, this one right here, the book to
read before you give up on your writing dream, and
essentially a great story about this book. It's not like
the other how to writing books out there. It was
supposed to be, and I utterly failed to write writing
how to book, which I think goes really well with
the title Falling to Fly essentially this story I was
(25:56):
supposed to be everything I knew about constructing story and
writing story, and I was putting it together. But one
of my favorite writing how two books is Stephen King's
On Writing and he starts off like it's split into
two components. On writing is Stephen King's thing. The first
one is what he calls his CV, and the second
one is what he calls his toolbox. And the first
(26:18):
one is all these anecdotes from his life that talk about,
you know, how he came to be the writer that
he is. And he starts off by saying, this is
not an autobiography and then proceeds to write an autobiography.
I thought that was a really slick, like He's like,
this is not an ot of our this is my CV,
this is my curriculum of to day and it yeah,
and it was totally an autobiography, but you know, but
(26:39):
I really I love that part of it the most.
So I wanted to tell what I knew about writing
in stories, and so these anecdotes from my life and
when I learned how to you know, stick to it
when it comes to writing and get my butt in
the chair and write. When I learned to create character
arcs when I learned to, you know, appreciate other people's
(27:00):
structures like Save the Cat, right, So I started off
with that in mind, and what it ended up being
was more of an inspirational I go into. I mean
it's like, have you ever read Kitchen Confidential by Anthony
Bourdain where he kind of goes behind the scenes of
his progress as a as a cook. Well, anyways, if
you haven't, you should read. It's a fabulous book. But
(27:21):
this is like Kitchen Confidential for the publishing industry. I
talk about all of my failures, Yeah, all of my successes,
all the places I fell on my face. I mean
it really is ninety percent me falling on my face
in this book, which I think people appreciate, right, I
mean like fly exactly. So that's what it ended up being.
And I almost scrapped the project. I almost threw it
(27:43):
away because it was nothing like what I wanted. And
my assistant, the wonderful Beca Gardner, she was like, what
what are you talking about. I'm like, well, this didn't
end up the way that I wanted it to be,
So I'm gonna scrap this project. I'm gonna pull maybe
thirty percent of it and use it. She's like no,
and that was the first time she'd ever gone no,
And I was like, what what do you mean No.
She's like, no, no, no, No, this is exactly what it
(28:04):
needs to be. This book is the book that every
reader or every writer needs to read. I'm like, no,
it's a scrubby, crappy version of what I was trying
to do. She's like, yeah, but you did something different.
You did something you weren't expecting to do, but it's
so so impactful to me. Now here's what I want
you to do. She's like, I tell you what if
you think I'm wrong, and I think I'm right, Let's
(28:25):
get together six of your super fans. We'll get them
on a zoom call, and we'll put you on the
zoom call, but you will be muted and your screen
will be blacked out. You don't get to respond, and
we get to have them read it before they get
on the call and then talk about it. And she
did that, and every single one of them loved it.
And that was the first time I've ever been like, Okay,
I guess I'll keep it and the rest is history.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
So yeah, that's a partner you need to keep forever
for sure. Now we got to talk about your fiction
because you've been such a phenomenally successful fiction writer. You've
just released your fifth book in the Eldros fantasy series
and it's not even your first series, right, No tell
us about the new book though.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, So the new one is this book here, Bane
of Giants. I'm not sure if that's actually focusing up
on that, but whatever, you can see it. Yeah, okay,
So Bane of Giants is the fifth and final in
the Eldress Legacy Legacy of Shadows storyline. Now, Eldros Legacy
is this fantastic collective where we pulled four different founding
authors and about ten other cohort authors to write in
(29:30):
this world. There were five different content continents. Four of
them were founded by the four founders, and then the
cohort authors chose which continents they wanted to write it.
And it's this big kind of collaborative project. And my
story is the first one to be completed in its entirety,
and the other stories are still in progress right now.
So that's what Eldross Legacy is. And the first book
(29:53):
in eld In my storyline of Eldros Legacy starts with
kaivin The Unkillable and and it's just this fantastic sword
and sorcery romp through a world that used to be
ruled by these fifteen foot tall, highly intelligent, highly magical
giants until about two thousand years ago when humans learned
(30:17):
how to use magic and overthrew their overlords. Well, the
giants fifty percent of them were killed, fifty percent of
them fled and magically vanished. And the story opens up
when they've decided it's time for them to take back
their world. And so this group of heroes, this group
of five sort of dungeons and dragon style heroes. We've
got a warrior, a rogue, a ranger, a paladin, and
(30:40):
a magic user that are all from different walks of
life come together to stop the end of the world.
So that's the beginning of the Eldress Legacy, and Bane
of Giants is the culmination of that storyline.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Fantastic.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
Now, what does a typical writing day look like for you?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Us?
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Absolutely, Well, do you want me to tell you what
the typical ideal writing day is for me or what
is an actual typical Okay.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
Would also differ, but I think it's inspirational for our listeners,
many of them are aspiring writers, to hear what it's really.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Like outstanding well. So today I got up. I walked
five miles in the snow. That's part of my routine.
I kind of clear my head. I start thinking about ideas.
I talk with my assistant. She's very good when it
comes to bouncing ideas off of her, and I help
her with any questions she has about her writing that
(31:38):
she's starting to take off. You watch Becka Lee Gardner
is going to be one of the people on this
podcast pretty soon. Keep an eye on her. Anyways. Then
I got back. I did twenty minute hit workout, high
intensity interval training workout, then showered, have my breakfast, watched
about a quarter of a movie. I try and get
my brain in the mode of storytelling, so I always
(31:59):
watch movies while I'm making breakfasts, which is usually broccoli, mushrooms, onions,
and an egg. That's that's kind of my breakfast routine.
And then I came up and I started editing on
one of my audio books, which I'm the voice talent
for most of my audio books, and I need to
get this one edited very soon. So I edited a
(32:19):
couple chapters on that. Then I recorded a couple chapters
on a different book that I'm working on, and then
I wrote my newsletter, which went out about fifteen minutes ago.
So that's then I went shopping because you know, I'm
the stay at home part of.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
It, not the only ones who work on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Yes, so yeah, that's pretty much that I came home.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Yeah, so the so the writing part would you would
you say that you are a panther or a planner?
It sounds like maybe today was not a writing day
that you were doing other part of your author business work,
which we totally understand. But when you are gearing up
to write in a book, are you a panser or
(33:02):
are you a planner?
Speaker 2 (33:04):
Okay, so I'm a diide in the wool pantser. However,
I have spent a lot of time and effort to
understand different kinds of plotting techniques just so that you know.
I think it's important to know everything right, whether you
choose to use it or not. The more you know,
the better off you're gonna be. So yeah, I'm what
my assistant calls a tsunami writer, which I have tried
(33:27):
my whole life to be more of like a I'm
gonna get up, I'm gonna write one thousand, three hundred
and twenty five words, And tomorrow I'm gonna get up
and I'm gona write one thousand, three hundred and twenty five.
I can't do that. Like I get up and I
will write a thousand words. That's that's like my baseline goal.
And most often I'll hit fifteen hundred, two thousand. Sometimes
when I'm getting close to the end of the book,
I will hit six thousand, seven thousand, eight thousand words
(33:48):
in a day, depending on how deep in the project
I am. But probably I don't know. There are probably
some writers out there who have the perfect system. This
is not the perfect system for me. I keep trying
to get better at it, and I keep trying to
up my game. But generally speaking, I write about fifteen
hundred words a day, even on Saturdays and Sundays, but
just today I haven't quite gotten around to it. Usually
(34:10):
I write in the morning, but maybe today it's going
to be in the evening.
Speaker 6 (34:12):
Good be.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Speaking as somebody who's interviewed a lot of writers now
with this podcast, No, I don't think there is a
perfect writer with a perfect day out there. Anywhere.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
The perfect writing system is the one that works for you.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
H There you go.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
We have to be flexible because life happens and other
work might take our attention away for a little bit,
and the important thing is to keep coming back to it.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Right, absolutely, Todd. We have to wrap this up. One
last question, what's next? You're ending El DROs and done
the nonfiction. Why do we look forward to in the future.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Well, I have fans clamoring for more Tower of the Four.
That was a series I started before I got into
the Eldress Legacy project, and then the Eldress Legacy just
took me away. It just swept me away, and I
did five books in a row on that series. So
now I'm coming back. I just finished the third and
the fourth and final in that series. I'm gonna try
and get a rough draft hammered out before the end
(35:11):
of the year. We'll see how that goes. So that's
my project that I'm working on next.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Sounds fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being on
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Just a few parting words. Since I've already mentioned the newsletter,
I should remind you again the writer Con has its
own free newsletter which comes out every month, sometimes several
times a month, and occasionally contains the writer Con magazine
as a free add on. Plus, I sometimes put the
podcast in there and the wealth of information before we
(36:04):
have time to get it into a podcast or on
the writer con Facebook groups. And it's free. So go
to substack search for writer conmag dot com, writer conmag
dot substack dot com. I'll put it in the show notes.
That's how you sign up. Let me also remember remind
(36:24):
you since we're in December now, there are some Christmas
books other than the ones we mentioned before that you
might want to take a look at. I wrote a
Christmas novel a few years back called The Midnight Before Christmas,
and it's one of my favorite books that I've ever written.
Last year, I contributed to an anthology called Christmas Tapestry,
(36:45):
which I thought was wonderful because each of the contributing
authors did a Christmas story with their series characters. So
I've got a Kinsey Rivera story in there, and the
others are using their series characters. Laura, You've got a
Christmas book too, don't you.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Christmas Spirit yep.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Part of the Wantland Follil series.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It is.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
It's book five, but if you start reading now, you're
sure to be able to at that by Christmas.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Whip through one through four so that you can do
five in time for Christmas. Absolutely all right, until next time, everybody,
keep writing and remember you cannot fail if you refused
to quit. Bye bye
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