August 9, 2025 • 56 mins
Episode 45 Interview with Former FBI Profiler Julia Cowley Part 2 of 2
In part 2 of this special 2 part episode, former FBI agent and profiler, Julia Cowley, takes a close look at host Mike Morford's favorite suspect; 'Mac' to see where he lines up with Zodiac in her opinion, and where he might not.
To listen to every episode of this show AD-FREE and get benefits like bonus and early-access episodes of every other show on the AbJack Network, consider an AbJack Insider subscription from Apple Podcasts.
For show news, past episodes, and more, please check out the Zodiac Speaking Website. & for formative Zodiac articles, check out Rich's website.
Find us on your favorite social media platforms; we'd love to interact with you. You can find us on the following platforms:
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In part 2 of this special 2 part episode, former FBI agent and profiler, Julia Cowley, takes a close look at host Mike Morford's favorite suspect; 'Mac' to see where he lines up with Zodiac in her opinion, and where he might not.
To listen to every episode of this show AD-FREE and get benefits like bonus and early-access episodes of every other show on the AbJack Network, consider an AbJack Insider subscription from Apple Podcasts.
For show news, past episodes, and more, please check out the Zodiac Speaking Website. & for formative Zodiac articles, check out Rich's website.
Find us on your favorite social media platforms; we'd love to interact with you. You can find us on the following platforms:
Facebook - Instagram - Threads - X formerly Twitter - Bluesky - Tik Tok - Twitch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is a Zodiac Speaking Welcome back to Part two
of my conversation with former FBI agent and profiler Julia Kelly.
In our last episode, in part one of our conversation,
Julie discussed what it is an FBI profiler does and
how they can help in cases. She also offered her
(01:17):
opinions on the Zodiac case. In this episode and part
two of her conversation, Julia will apply her skills to
my favorite Zodiac suspect Mac. What things will line up
between Mac and Zodiac and what things won't You're about
to find out. I've already had criminologist Lee Mellern to
compare his Zodiac profile against Mac, so it'll be interesting
(01:39):
to see where Lee and Julia's conclusion is parallel with
each other and where they don't. So I had sent
you some information about my favorite suspect in this case, Mac, Yeah,
and I sort of wanted to give you as much
information as I could. It's not very organized when I say, yeah,
I'm not very organized person, unfortunately, But I tried to
(02:02):
compile everything and send it over to you just to
give you a rundown on what has been found and
uncovered with him. And I'm curious with what I sent you,
what you found in that, what things maybe line up
or don't line up about him possibly being Zodik.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
So a couple of things, like, first of all, does
the timeline even make sense? Right?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You want to make sure is it possible?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
And I'm it seems like, you know, he's in the vicinity,
he's not like he's out of the country when something happens,
or you know, he's in the hospital when one happens
and he can't you know, So it seems like, Okay, well,
it's not like it's impossible, and he possibly could have
committed all the crimes.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
So that stood out.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
The issue and what it's hard for me because you
could probably take a lot of people and make a
lot of different connections that you know, Oh, this person
lived in Vallejo and they lived close to a pay
phone or something, you know, Like you know what I'm saying,
Like you could probably take a lot of people that
(03:17):
The thing that stuck out to me was a couple
of things, but one of them which I wanted to
ask you about his firearms. You say you mentioned here
that somebody described as a crack firearms guy, Like, so
a good I used to assume a good shot.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, he instructed this is after the Zodiac murders were
complete and the letter writing campaign was over with. He
was instructing in the prison system guards how to shoot
handguns and rifles.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So obviously this offender had access to firearms. We did
not think he was a great shot. But that doesn't
mean I mean, there are people who train with weapons
and they're not great shots. I've seen it in the FBI,
So it doesn't necessarily mean or they're not great under pressure.
(04:15):
But he certainly has access to weapons. He has multiple weapons,
so that narrows things down a little bit. He was
accurate and confident in us. He was accurate to a
point and confident to use them. But under high stress situations,
(04:37):
we didn't think he was that great. So when it
comes to like looking at his prior use your your
suspect here, his prior use of weapons. You know, when
they say he's a good shot, is that all under
controlled conditions? Or what is you know? Is he how
capable is he when he's under stressed? Because I don't
think Zodiac was that great under stress. I know some
(04:59):
people think he you know, shot at the car to
get the victims to run, And we didn't think that
that happened on that he did that on purpose, because
that is so high risk. Why would you risk, you know,
a victim trying to get away from you. But I
know other people feel very strongly that he did shoot
(05:22):
at the car to make them run out of the car.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So but that would be our assessment. So I would
want to know.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
How well this suspect was under pressure and had he
ever been in high pressure pressure situations? But what I
would say about these Zodiac, while I didn't think he
was great under pressure, I think he had experience with firearms,
so I would see that in his background. Now compare
(05:50):
that to Golden State killer I thought that the offender
would have had formal firearms training. I thought he was
a good shot. I thought he thought shot well under pressure,
I see a difference with Zodiac, And.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I think it's obviously a lot different shooting at a
target than it is shooting at some people.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
That it's very different. Yeah, yeah, it's very different under
you know. And in Joe's di'angelo's situation, he was very
close range, and while Zodiac did get close, he still
had the victims who were scattering or you know, who ran.
So but I think under pressure, he's wasn't as good
(06:31):
as maybe he thought he would. So when you're looking
at your suspect, you want to look, is there an
element of overconfidence to this particular suspect's use of firearms?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay? Interesting? And what other findings did you see of interest?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
You know, there's so much here.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
They see, these little things like that, you know, seem
to connect him, you know, so it's hard not to
get like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
He lived right there during.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
That time, and I can go through a lot of
things just by memory with you, like, you know, so
I was, you know, we had talked a little bit
about Zobiac's relationships, lack of relationships, whatever you call it.
So this was, you know, one thing that I was
able to verify through friends former college roommates of his,
(07:24):
was that during that nineteen well even before that, the
time they were in college, they all had girlfriends, relationships.
As soon as they graduated college, this little group of
college friends went their own way. They went, they had careers,
one guy became a cop, one guy went to the military.
They had wives, they got married, and one of them
(07:46):
even said that he felt bad for Mac because he
sort of was left on his own. He didn't have anyone,
he didn't date, and you know, so that sort of
and sides with when the zodiac stuff starts and they
would only see him again during these odd random weddings
(08:08):
that would pop up from time to time. So I
was interested in the timing of his college at Chico
State ending in nineteen sixty eight. This friend group that
he had going their own way and giving their lives rolling, well,
he sort of stalled out on his own with no girlfriend,
(08:29):
and he had never had a girlfriend, according to these
people I talked to. So and he did not ultimately
meet and marry his wife until nineteen seventy four, which
coincidentally or not, is when the zodiac letters stop. So
what does from a relationship standpoint, does that look like
to you?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well that I mean, what I can say is like
you're some of the stuff you've put down here, there's
nothing in here that I just say that doesn't fit
with what we see. But when you talk about him
not having a relationship, and you know, that would be
something we would expect that, you know, that would be
in line with what we thought. You just didn't really
(09:12):
have somebody it maybe resented other people. So what I
would want to know is did he ever show he
was resentful in any way, shape or form. Did he
ever express that, Did he ever make flippant comments or
something to his friends in some way about being resentful
(09:33):
that they had found other people?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Or did he say something at a wedding?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Those are the kinds of things I would be interested
in because you do have this, you know, when you
read his letters, there's just kind of this chip on
his shoulder in a way, and so that's what I
would expect, and I think that's leakage with him. So
while you know, while he doesn't have a relationship, i'd
want to know how this particular suspect actually felt about
(09:59):
it and did anyone notice? And so there's this one
part where he was described as unemotional, reserved and never
visibly angry. Now that isn't contradictory to what we see,
But what I would want to know is did he
ever get angry? Did he ever and when he did
(10:21):
get angry, what was it about?
Speaker 4 (10:23):
What did he say? And was it to the person's
face or was it behind their back.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm gonna that's gonna lead me to something that we
were talking earlier and made me think of this. So
I'm going to tell you a story that happened. I
don't know when this happened, but it was after he
was married at some point. I'm assuming he was married
for a while when this happened, and I don't remember.
I'm ad libbing here because I don't remember the exact story.
But he was angry about somebody that I think had
(10:53):
parked someplace or cut them off or parked in his
parking spot. I don't remember exactly what it was. And
he made it a point to tell his wife that
he wanted to get business cards to leave on the
windshields of the people that do this. Kind of stuff
to him. Would that be something that because when I
heard that, that's sort of sort a chill down my spine.
(11:13):
That's it's like a it's it's really getting involved in
petty for something like that. I mean, I could see
a road rage instant yell at somebody and there's a confrontation,
but this is like going above and beyond secretively. And
when I heard that, that's just it sent chills up
my spine that he would do something like that.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's it's very petty. It's I mean,
he's formulating a plan for these little incidents that don't
really matter but matter a lot to him so that
he can handle them, so he could show them. So yes,
that that is that's weird. I don't I wouldn't say
(11:54):
this makes him the serial killer. And that's what I'm
going to tell you, Mike. I would would never be
able to tell you that your suspect is him. I
would I could never do that. That would be irresponsible
if I tried to do that. But something like that
is something I could see the Zodiac doing because the
Zodiac himself, he's petty, he's vindictive, he gets upset about
(12:17):
little insignificant things that the police may get wrong. I mean,
why does he care, why you know, you killed people,
why do you care that they got these little things wrong?
So that tells me there's a pettiness to him. I
think when we were talking about him, it's hard for
me to remember everything that we talked about, but we
talked about if he's in his place of work, he
may not outwardly show anger if somebody irritates him, but
(12:42):
he would do something maybe behind their back, or say
something to somebody else, or like leave a nasty note
or whatever. It would It would not be something he
would necessarily have explosive rage over it, but he'd come
back to it. So that's an interesting story about the cards.
It's very petty. It's a vindictive thing. And it's also
(13:04):
you know, why not just say, hey, you know, can
you not park like that? If that really bothers you?
But no, he's got to leave cards. He's got to
let them know.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
It's such an.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Over the top reaction to insignificant things that we all
deal with every day, and.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's it seems like like a small thing. It's not
like he went into an outburst and pulled a gun
out on the guy or anything like that. But it's
so sneaky and small and petty, Like you mentioned that,
it just stands out as just being very weird. Yeah,
because I think I think most of us somebody cuts
(13:42):
us off or does something, parks on the spot, whatever,
jumps into a spot when we're about to pulling. You know,
the worst is you yell at the whendow, you give
him the finger, and then you drive away and then
and then it's over. For this just seemed very strange
to want to take extra steps to deal with it.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It's a long term plan, is what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Is.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Yeah, it's a long term plant.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I want to have cards so that every time this happens,
I can show them, you know, rather than just like
you said, being I guess confrontational. I mean, I guess
it's a you know, a less violent way. But it's
it's odd. It is a very odd behavior, and it's
again so petty. Which is I see that. I see
(14:23):
that people who know this offender would probably describe him
as having petty grievances or having grievances that they didn't
even realize he had until maybe it came out a
little later. Just things that he, what you know, felt
slighted about that most people wouldn't. He might take things
(14:43):
the wrong way and have inappropriate reactions to them, and
those reactions might not be that, like you said, this
outburst of anger, but something more sneaky, more underhanded, and
you know, a way.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
To show them, but without.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Having a direct confrontation with them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And that sort of leads me to the next thing,
because there was a I think I mentioned there was
a threat on a baseball manager of a team called
the Novado Knicks.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, I remember that one.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, And they had played the Vacaville prison team which
Mac was a prison guard at this point, and they
beat them pretty badly. And then not long after, I
think it was the next week, this coach of the
other team receives this threat from somebody calling themselves Zodiac.
(15:37):
That was, you know, basically telling him not to leave
his home for the next ten Saturdays or who would
be killed? Do you? And this is an on courr
firm Zodiac letter, And you know, the letter itself no
longer exists. I can't even get my hands on it
through a foyer request to see what it even looked like.
But with something like that in this. To me, he
(16:00):
sounds like a sort of a petty thing too, that
Zodiac might do. Do you think that could be a
legitimate Zodiac letter? And that threat against him may have
had something to do with you know that that baseball game.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I don't know, but it wouldn't It also wouldn't surprise
me if, like we talked about earlier, this offender writing
letters under his real name. You know, when he's upset
or something, he might do that he might disguise. He
might write a letter not related to Zodiac and just
disguise his name.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I could.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I actually could see that, probably more than I could
him using his real name. Like if he's irritating, if
you want to write a letter to the editor, he
might not use his real name just to be irritating. Now,
can I say it's a Zodiac letter? No, But I
wouldn't be surprised that that wouldn't rule I would not
(16:55):
rule that out and say absolutely not him, because we
we know he does those types of things, okay, and
we know he has petty grievances okay.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And then there's another thing that would would he make
or convince his wife to mail a letter on his
behalf the real Zodiac.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Maybe okay, because there's another instance where mac there was
an article sort of criticizing prison guards, or if I
remember correctly.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
She wrote, but she wrote the letter, sent the letter.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She sent the letter in her name. So okay, I
don't have the truth that he put her up to it,
but it seems like she's really concerned about it, and
I wonder if he got in her ear.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, So okay, I see what you're saying. I misunderstood
because I was going to say I would doubt if
he had something to say that he would have someone
else mail his letters for him.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I would just see.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Him wanting that's part of the process of you know, oh,
I'm going to sneak to the mail, but put this
in there, and then good, I can't wait till they
get it, you know. It's kind of like that anticipation. Okay,
it's it's gone, it's out there, it's being mailed, you know.
So I think that's part of the thrill for him,
is to maybe even actually go and put them in
the mail. Now, what could have happened in a situation
(18:14):
like that, Let's just say he's Zodiac. I'm not saying that.
But let's say he goes home and he's so upset.
He's complaining to her, and he gets her to the
point he's not saying you need to write a letter,
but she realizes he's so upset, she becomes upset by it.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
She you know, you know, pens her own letter. That's possible.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's very likely that the reason in that particular case,
the reason she wrote a letter at all, is because
that was something he was complaining about. Okay, it doesn't
necessarily mean he told her to do it, but I
think it's probably he was. If he wasn't upset, why
would she even care? Why, you know, like, why would
(18:55):
it even matter? I mean, maybe she's mad on her own,
but I I would suspect whether he's Zodiac or not,
that was something that bothered him and he complained about
it to her and that got her upset.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
And going back to his childhood, I there wasn't a
lot of you know, we were able to uncover, but
there was one instance of a BB gun shooting where
he shot out something, which I don't know. It just
seems seems like a lot of young kids with a
BB gun just shot shoot stuff. They shouldn't be shooting.
So I don't know how much stock you can put it,
but that's the only thing. If there's anything in his
(19:33):
youth that we found that was any kind of crime
that we could see.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I would look more for things like sneakiness, stuff which
you may not have, you know, access to, or even
have knowledge of, like maybe things he did to other
kids at school that they you know, odd things happened
or something just something more along those lines. I mean,
the thing about the BB gun, all that tells me
(20:02):
while you know he had access to weaponry early on,
but I don't want to My brother, my stepbrother shot
a bird with a BB gun.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So many boys I knew growing up that stuff with
the BB guns. I almost don't want to count that.
So it's just again looking at everything background, that's the
only thing we could see.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yeah, I grew up in a you know, a small town,
rural community, and you know we had guns and weapons
and stuff like that and BB guns and and my yeah,
so my brothers were you know.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
So I don't I don't want to put too much
paid into that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
But you can draw from you can say, Okay, it's
not like he didn't have any access to weapons. Ever,
I mean he started at a young age, he had weapons.
So does that mean he became a killer? No, but
it it certainly shows he had the capability to do
maybe someday what this killer did.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I guess that's how I would put.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
That, Okay, And then early on too, we know and
then I was told this firsthand from a college roommate
of his, that he had a strained relationship with his
parents because and then and then this is the second
hand information that the roommate was giving me that he
that Mac felt that his parents were much older than
(21:20):
all his friend's parents, or this is the roommate's opinion
of why they were restriction between them because they were
much older than people their ages parents. So they were
they were much older is what I'm trying to say
then than he was. Do you ever see that as
a as a possible some kind of disconnect with the
(21:40):
parents based on their their age or not being close.
And they also said that he had an icy relationship
with his father. And we also know that his mom
had a nursing school, that she a nursery that she
ran out of their business, so he was exposed to
(22:02):
young children being there and I think I even put
it in the thing that I sent to you that
he was encouraged that either his dad was encouraged to
be called dad by these kids. But would that have
any kind of impact possibly on Mac as a young
child seeing this.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Stuff, I think that could definitely have an impact if
you feel and we don't know for sure if he was.
This was a friend's impression, but if you feel for
some reason you're different or your parents are different, and
you feel left out because of that, because maybe you
can't do things with other kids, or your parents can't
(22:39):
be friends with the other parents like the rest of
the kids are, or something like that, that could certainly
have an impact on his sense of belonging, his self esteem.
He may become resentful for those reasons. I don't know
if that's the case with him, but like you know,
this was a friend's observation that that is possible. The
(23:00):
daycare stuff, you know, I couldn't draw too much information
from that. I thought it was a little weird about,
you know, making the kids call his father daddy. That
just seemed a little bit it was just maybe a
(23:20):
little bit presumptuous. So I know, the daycare, what you know,
serviced people or children who may not have father figures
in their lives. But I thought was a little presumptuous
for that to be encouraged of the kids. It just
made you know, I know, if I was a kid
(23:44):
and I was being to old call that older man daddy,
I would not like that.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
It would just be creepy to me. I don't know,
but this was a different time. I mean, I guess
it's not that different.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'm pretty old now, so, but it just seemed a
little presumptuous. It's a weird behavior, just not something I
can put too much weight into, but it's I just
that stood out to me is that's.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Just kind of creepy. But I don't want to.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Put too much emphasis on it, because people do weird
things all the time that don't mean anything.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
It just seemed weird.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, I mean, so we all have weirdness in our families.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah. See. And I did want to touch on Max's
confirm interest in Cipher's. So his wife met him in
nineteen seventy four, the same year the zodiac letter stopped,
and she married him later that year, so they were
together a short time before they got married. So everything
she knows she knows secondhand what he told her, what
(24:46):
she learned from other people perhaps, but essentially, at some point,
and I think this was around two thousand and seven,
the Zodiac movie came out, directed by David Fincher. Yeah,
and I guess after she claims they never watch that
movie together, by the way, and after that movie came out,
(25:07):
he wanted another copy of a cipher and codebook that
she said he previously had back in nineteen eighty or something.
He wanted another copy of it because he liked the
book so much, and he made her by the book.
And yeah, I have my own theory that because he
probably didn't want his name being connected to anything that
(25:30):
was Zodiac at all, and he made her by the book.
You'd think that move of making her buy that book
could be indicative of what you said orlier, that these
guys don't want to get caught, that he's trying to
put some extra layer of protection between himself and purchasing
his second copy of that book, a book that he
(25:51):
liked so much.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Sure, yeah, I could see that. I mean that's I mean,
that's something definitively we can say he studied ciphers, he
was interested in them. He probably spent a lot of
time at them reading these books. And so if this
guy is a Zodiac, he it was well known. It
(26:16):
was I think it was put out to the public.
This guy must be in the military or study, you know, ciphers,
and he may very well have had her buy the
book so as not to straw attention to himself. Certainly
I would agree with that. Still can't say he's Zodiac.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Sorry, I wish I wasn't expecting you to.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean, but sure, that's like that, this is a
red flag, like why not go buy the book yourself,
you know, so you know, if it's him, that's certainly
why he did that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And along the lines just distancing himself from the Zodia crimes.
This is something that I've only recently discovered in the
last week or so. I don't even think I mailed
this to you. But when the Zoeodiac movie, the news
articles started appearing in two thousand and five, they started
appearing that we're going to be filming the Zodiac movie,
(27:10):
this major movie directed by David Fincher, and there it's
going to be filmed in and around the Bay Area.
It was within weeks of the first appearances that they
decided they were going to move from Solano County, which
he had lived in his entire life, and moved to Oregon.
(27:32):
And you know, I find that I found the timing
that here's a guy that's lived in this area his
entire life, and all of a sudden he's deciding to
move now with something again putting distance in between himself.
Might that be a reason for him to decide, let's
move at that point?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, maybe the attention made him uncomfortable. It could it
could be. I'm you know, I would want to know
from his background, had he ever talked about moving to Oregon?
Was there any significant changes in his life right at
that time?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
What else?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Or is it just the minute they found out about
the movie being there, he's like, we gotta go.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I tail it out of there. I'd really want to know.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Had he ever talked about Oregon before or But that's
what we're always looking for, is you know, pre impost
defense behavior and people, you know, after they commit a crime,
do they leave the area unexpectedly without a good reason
and things like that. So I would want to know
is it was there really a good reason or was
(28:37):
he uncomfortable because so much attention was being drawn to
the area because of the filming of movie, and he didn't.
He was uncomfortable with that, you know, microscope being put
back on the crimes so close to where he was, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And then the final thing I wanted to talk about
was some of the stretch because you know, when I
read through the Golden State Killer documents, which I didn't
have any of this in the Zodiac files. There wasn't
really much I came across in the way of profiles,
but I had read a couple of different profiles, not yours,
so I didn't read anything from you on the Golden
State Killer. But they thought that between nineteen eighty one
(29:21):
and nineteen eighty six that the Golden State Killer would
there'd be something major in his life, a career change,
something a birth of a child, because he had stopped
from nineteen eighty one to nineteen eighty six, and he
murdered somebody in nineteen eighty one, he didn't murder it
again until nineteen eighty six, and they felt that there
(29:41):
was two major changes that you could look back in
his life and if you found out who he was,
and you would see them. And sure enough they corresponded
with the birth of both of his daughters. So that
was when I really started getting fascinated with these spressures,
these major life things. So I found that again, nineteen
seventy one, the Zodiac stops writing a letter. That's the
(30:03):
time Mac takes this job with the state. Nineteen seventy four,
he meets his future wife and the letters start up again,
and then he marries her later in nineteen seventy four,
and then there's never another confirmed Zodiac letter after that.
So would those be streussures that you would look for
those kinds of things with his starting this career and
(30:26):
meeting and marrying his wife, that coincides so well with
the stops and starts with the Zodiac letters.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yes, And if we were advising law enforcement, that's what
we would tell them. We would say, particularly if they're
trying to prioritize suspects, we would say, Okay, the crimes
were very consistent up to this point they stop, So look,
you know, you want to look for a prior oritize
offender who maybe had a major life event or stressor
(30:56):
you know exactly exactly what you're saying whether and it
doesn't have to be something bad marriage can be stressful,
even though it's a happy most of the time, a
happy situation when you get married. Certainly the birth of
a child is wonderful but also very stressful, and you
have major disruptions in your life. Many people take time
(31:19):
off from work and things like that. So yes, those
are the absolutely the things you'd be looking for when
you're prioritizing suspects. Not only that, but before the crimes too,
like when did they start? Was there a stressor before that?
Was there something a major thing? We don't always see it,
but those are things we would look for when looking
(31:41):
for suspects in the case.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I was curious. I started thinking about this, What would
the relationship between a zodiac and a potential wife if
he was married. What would that look like? In your opinion,
what do you think that would be? You know that
the way they interacted, the way their shared interest, their
overall relationship, I.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Think you'd see that he needed control, he needed his
own space. He likely became irritated if challenged or criticized
in any way. I wouldn't necessarily say there would be
(32:33):
physical abuse, but there would likely be some emotional abuse
that's either recognized or not recognized by the spouse. But
I would also see that when he was angry, some
very passive aggressive behavior toward a significant other. And even
(32:54):
if he wasn't angry, but you might see this passive aggressiveness.
I think that is evident in his letter as well.
So you know, do I see that there would be
any huge red flags that he was extremely violent and abusive?
Not necessarily I would see. I would expect to see
perhaps a little more subtle, subtle signs of emotional abuse.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Very interesting.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Does this fit?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Well?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We don't, so the situation I don't know. Well the
situation is. And I'll sort of just give you a
backstory here. So when I first found this guy, I
talked about him publicly, but I didn't name him. And
something I slipped up and said somebody found and linked
back to him, and a troll on Twitter reached out
(33:49):
to this guy's wife and told her, Hey, this guy
thinks your husband was a Zodiac. So I sort of
inadvertently introduced her to the idea that her husband was
a Zodiac. And I had reached out to her by mail,
and I didn't tell her what it was about. I
said I wanted to speak to her regarding something I
(34:12):
was researching, and she didn't respond. But after she read
this thing on Twitter, she did respond, and she actually
joined this form to my surprise, and participated in the
conversation and laid out what she knew. And she get ever,
whatever reason she should want to do that. You know,
(34:34):
if my thinking was, if somebody reached out to this
and said something like this about my wife, I tell
him the f off and never talked to him. I
And this is just my opinion. I got the feeling
she was interested in hearing about what was being said,
and maybe something in her mind maybe thought she should
(35:00):
interact with us. That's just my opinion. I you know,
she might tell you different, but I got the vibe
that she felt there was maybe something there. She denied
him ever being violent, and of course, you know, she
said she wanted to clear his name, and and she
(35:20):
was pretty cordial and answered a lot of her questions.
But then they questions, some of the things became very strange.
Like I asked her, you know, I said, could we
you know, potentially have more writing or photographs or audio
specifically to help rule him out. And she said that
all of the stuff that like that was destroyed, there's
(35:43):
nothing left of him, let her wise photo wise, audio wise,
video wise. She said that her father in law his dad,
had in a fit of rage burned everything or destroyed everything.
So essentially the story is there's nothing left of Mac
to listen to, to see. And I'm thinking to myself,
(36:06):
that's very weird. If it's true, it's very weird. And
if it's not true, why would someone make that up.
So that's sort of where we were with what she
had to say. And again, she was giving us information
from the zodiac yours from nineteen sixty to nineteen seventy four.
She's giving us second hand because she didn't know him
(36:26):
until nineteen seventy four. So, you know, I didn't feel
she was necessarily being dishonest. I think she was giving
us what she could, which she you know, she could
have just told us to screw off and not talk
to us at all. But you know, she actually did
answer some questions. But some of the things she did
put forward we were pretty led to more questions and
(36:49):
a lot of the stuff we had regarding their relationship,
and some of the odd things were from a blog
she had published way before I ever found him, and
thought he might be zodiac. She had mentioned this book,
this codebook. After he died. She had a box that
was written guilt on and this book that he was
(37:13):
supposed to have thrown out was still in this box.
It was called the guilt box. Now she says that
it was called the guilt box because she wanted to
make him feel guilty about not getting rid of stuff.
That's the excuse she gave anyway. But this code cipher
book was still there, and she mentioned on her blog
post that she thought he had gotten rid of it
(37:34):
years ago, so this had some sentimental value. And she
mentioned how it was the second copy he had owned,
so this cipher book was pretty important to him. And
it just, you know, interacting with hers led to other
you know, different questions and different things that different outlook
for for this conversation. M I mean again, not to
(37:56):
take you, not to take you too far off track.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I mean, but that whole thing about well, like you said,
whether it's true or not. But let's say it is
true that his father burned all his stuff. That's not
a normal response, like to just take your child and
stuff and burn it all.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I don't know, and I want to be fair
I don't know if it was burned it or throw
it out. I don't remember the exact but basically it
was no longer available. And one of the things I
remember was a sentimental I think a sweater his mom
had made. I don't remember what it was, but it was.
That's the long and short of it. That all the
stuff that could possibly link to mac is gone, according.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
To her, got to be something left.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Well, that's if I if something happened to me right now,
somebody wanted to find something, they'd find all kinds of
stuff for me from my wife would be able to give.
And again I understand it, she doesn't have a responsibility
to show us anything, but I'm just going by taking
her word that this is what happened, and it's just
it Just to me, is is very strange.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Yeah, I you know, there are certain things that I
would want to ask her, just you know obviously that
he did have an interest in the codebreakers. I would
want to know what kinds of guns did he have
and did he keep exactly? And you probably do know that.
I don't know if she would tell you that. I
would also want to know did he ever because this
(39:27):
is something Michael Butterfield had asked us, did we think
he would have kept news clippings, and we thought, yeah,
we do.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We wouldn't necessarily say that about every offender, but because
he had so much interaction with media, it's very likely
he would have kept news clipping So I'd want to
know did he ever have news clippings of the case.
And just because he had him doesn't mean it's him,
but it would be something that would be interesting if
(39:55):
he did, in combination with other things, you know. So
and then the behavioral things that you and I always
that already we talked about, you know, how he would react,
you know, just because in the fact he didn't have
she says no violent history to me, that doesn't rule
(40:16):
him out at all. We had there's a lot of
very very violent serial killers and brutal beatings of victims,
and they were not physically abusive in their in their
intimate with their intimate partners.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
And the one interesting thing that she had mentioned, I
had asked her if she had ever if mac had
ever seen the movie The Exorcist, because the Zodiacs. One
of his last letters, he mentioned The Exorcist and is
the most satirical comedy that he had ever seen, and
she's admitted that they had seen it. I don't remember
(41:01):
the full story. I think they said it was very
hot or something, and they didn't even make it through
the whole movie. And I think if I remember her
comments again, I'm going by memory here, so I think
she recalled that he said this is a dumb movie anyway,
or something like that, and they left. So she admitted
seeing that movie. And I don't remember the year if
(41:23):
she said that she watched it right when it came
out in nineteen seventy four, when Zodiac sent this letter,
but she did admit that they had seen the movie together.
So it was, you know, a little bit of confirmation
there that something Zodiac had mentioned in a letter she
had admitted to it being true.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, and that referenced the movie. Obviously, it was a
horror movie. It's not supposed to be a comedy of
any kind. But it's sort of his way of saying
that's funny, being sarcastic. That would be a characteristic I
would expect in his normal everyday life, saying things that
are to the contrary of other things like that are
a little bit surprising or shocking, you know, that's.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Not supposed to be a comedy.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
But he makes these sort of morbid not morbid jokes,
but you know, these these little sarcastic jokes that are
not in line with really what the topic of the
movie is, like, you know, laughing at something that's you
shouldn't be laughing at. I would think those are the
types of characteristics that people that knew him may recognize
(42:31):
in him, because that's the stuff that leaks out of
his letters. His sarcasm, his flippancy, his resentment, his need
to correct the record and be right, and things like that.
These are all what I believe to be his true
characteristics and his inadequacy. Certainly his crimes reflect that. Yeah so,
(42:55):
and likely resentful of people who are of a high
or status than him, whether it's financially, whether it's educationally,
whether it's in the workplace, things like that. There would
be this underlying resentment impossible, very passive aggressive behavior.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Unless you saw anything else that I sent you that
you think is worth mentioning or stood.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Out to you, I think no, I don't. I don't
think there was. I mean, like I said, you know
his timeline, You can't. There's nothing in his timeline that
you could say he couldn't have done it. I mean,
that would be the first thing that I would look for, like,
you know, is there anything that just totally rules.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Him out the rest of it?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You know, it's really hard to say, Oh, I know here,
I just see it right now, dear Lodge. Okay, yeah,
I'm sorry, I totally for That was the other one
I wanted to say. I mean, that is such an
obscure reference that stood out to me. I'm so sorry
I forgot that was. Yeah, that stood out to me.
(44:05):
Very obscure record or reference there, Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
And it's the knowledge that he would have of Deer Lodge,
because you know, a lot of people think that maybe
it was a slip up because he intended not to
leave victims. But you know, he mentions Deer Lodge and
something that was not in the news to people in California,
didn't make California news, but somehow Zodiac knew about it.
(44:35):
So the fact he had family there and had a
family member that was dying there at that time, you know,
I can just see a scenario where his parents are
just making a small talk with him and they mentioned
what's going on in Deer Lodge and he brings it
up at Lake Barry Essa, not thinking twice about it
because he's planning and killing these people.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah, it was to me in the crime itself. Even
before I saw this, it was such an obscure reference.
I thought that you don't it's it's you know, you
need I think in the Golden State Killer case, jody'angelo
would reference like Bakersfield, you know, like I'm Bonnie.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
He references Bonnie one time.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
He does, Yeah, you know not. But that's not something
I would say, Oh, yeah, that's obscure because Baker's Field
is a well known place.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
I just wouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Found that to be obscure enough that I would say
that person has some maybe connection here or something. Now,
I thought, dear Lodge, I don't know how prevalent. I
never heard about it. I only heard about it through
this case. I never heard about it before, and I
you know, I grew up on the West Coast. I
guess that doesn't mean much. But it was obscure enough
(45:46):
for me to believe that he had some kind of connection,
I mean something, you know.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
And I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
He could have read about it, he could have been there,
but you know, this particular person, you know, had a
family member that was there, so you know, I that
stood out to me. But again, that's not something I
would say it's.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Him that It's just an interesting nugget.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
It's an interesting nugget.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
That was. That was the one thing I think that
I thought interesting. But I mean, how many people have
connections there in California, I don't know. But I hadn't
heard of it until the only way I've heard of
it is through the case. Okay, but you know, like
you hear Bakersfield, we all know Bakersfields crazy. It's not
(46:35):
that unique. This was This is a this was a
very unique reference. I'm not really sure we really spoke
about that that much. But now when I saw it
in your outline, I thought, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that
that is unique enough that I would have said, this
(46:56):
offender probably has some note, some kind of connection or
read something.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Okay, yeah, that's what I think.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
But that was the last thing that I that stood
out to me. I mean, like I said, there's nothing
that I'm just like, well, it can't be him. But
I also I'm so cautious because as you know, and
I know you've studied this guy. But there are so
many suspects sometimes in these serial murder cases, and you know,
(47:26):
there's so many times where you think we've got it,
they're going to go get DNA and it's not him,
and it's not you know, it's just disappointment after disappointment.
So I don't like to get excited about any suspect ever, So,
you know, and a lot of people could fit a profile.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
That's why it doesn't solve crimes or identify offenders.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Sure, And then I do know what I was going
to mention. So there was another couple unconfirmed letters from
the Zodiac. One was nineteen seventy eight, that was the
same year Mac became a born again Christian. And then
there was one in nineteen ninety the one I mentioned
the Xerox keys that was in Eureka, California, which is
(48:09):
nowhere near Vallejo, And it turns out that Mac owned
property there. Now, being that these are unconfirmed Zodia clarters,
they don't know how much you can really talk about them,
I guess. But if they were to be deemed legitimate
Zodiac letters, you know, I wonder if the significance of
the nineteen seventy eight letter coinciding with his being born again,
(48:33):
and then the nineteen ninety one all the way out
in Eureka, California, which is where MAC owned property. I
just found. But those the timing and the locations interesting
for both.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you know.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
BTK reaches out after all those years, you know what
triggered him? You know, you just don't always know why
they would do something like that. Why if these are
Zodiac letters, could it be a stressor very well, could
it be he just felt like doing it because he
enjoys doing it. I couldn't say. But in any of
(49:16):
these letters too, I mean, he's got to be in
the area to mail them. So the fact you connected
him to Eureka and that's not a location Zodiac was
known to be other than potentially that letter. And oh
now your suspect lives there, so again that's again something
(49:40):
that isn't something that could exclude him. You keep there's
still that's still another point of wealth he could still
be included.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, And unfortunately that's just an uncom from letter, so
we don't know if it's really from the real Zotic.
But so any other final thoughts.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
On the MAC that you had well, I mean I
appreciated looking at him if I were if you were
a detective and you wanted more information about him, I
could send you a general assessment questionnaire and I would
ask you to give that to people that knew him
to fill out and we could do more of a
(50:18):
personality assessment.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
It's a document.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
It's like a questionnaire that we would give people or
to detectives, to give to people that either knew a
victim very well or knew an offender very well, so
that we could do a personality profile, either to develop
victimology or to have a better understanding of an offender.
And a lot of times those would be used for
potential interview strategies. But it's not something that we would
(50:47):
use to say, oh, yes, this is your offender. This
would be something that we would use to better understand
your suspect. So if you ever found people knew him
that would be willing to fill out the questionnaire, you know,
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Been a tall order because I've only found a very
limited amount of people that a lot.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, you don't need a lot like we would say,
you know, depending on who you would have access to
somewhere between three to five people that maybe knew him
in different aspects of his life that would be willing.
You know, we would always tell people that wouldn't tell
the suspect. Obviously, when you're doing it for a victim,
it you know, Yeah, you know, most of the time
(51:29):
it's family members, you know, that want the case solved,
so they're willing to fill them out. But when you
have suspects that you may want to interview, detectives have
to be careful about who they give those two because
they want to tip them off that they're being looked at.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
But it's really good.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
I could send you the questionnaire so they can just
have it and if you ever wanted to give it
to anybody, and if you ever, you know, had a
couple you wanted to send us, it would be something
that I would not look at on my own. I'd
probably bring in all of their colleagues and then we
could just kind of go over this guy with you
just as a as an exercise. Yeah, but again, but
(52:08):
again we'd kind of end at the same place. We
can't tell you if it's him or not, but here's
what we think about this particular suspect.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Well, yeah, and it's just good to get the feedback.
And I really appreciate all the feedback you've given us
and all the information about the case and what you do,
and and I really appreciate it coming on.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
I I am actually very honored to be asked to
come on to a show to talk about this guy
when you have or not this guy, but this case,
when you have studied it so in depth. So I'm
glad that our show resonated with you a bit.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
You know, either people are either going to hear you
talk about it and they're they're going to think you're
an idiot, or they're going to think you're you know,
you're a genius. Usually it's one one or the other.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
If you value hopefully it's not the not the idiot.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Well, I mean if no, I'm us like, if if
we validate people's opinions, they think we did a good job,
and if we don't, then we're like, you don't know
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Well, I'm seeking the truth wherever it leads, to be
honest with you, so you know, if it leads to
my suspect or somebody else, if it's there's a resolution
one day. That's that's what I'm seeking. So you know, again,
thank you for all the information you give us.
Speaker 4 (53:21):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
And I would never rule anybody out just based on behavior.
I mean, I mean certain behaviors obviously, but like let's
say there's something with your suspect that I thought, oh no,
I don't think that fits. I still wouldn't rule him out.
I would never rule a suspect out based on a profile.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
Sure of somebody being away something solid that he's out
of the country or something, or in prison.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yeah, I mean, and those are investigative things that yeah,
they just can't be him, you know.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
So, but behaviorally, like we always tell people, like let's
say we say it's a white male agent between this age.
We say, but don't rule out anybody else who.
Speaker 4 (53:59):
Might be a bit suspect.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
I mean, this is just to help you maybe narrow
down or prioritize your suspects. But I wouldn't rule anybody
out unless it's you know, something just very significant in
their behavior, like example, Jody Angelo versus Zodiac not the
same the behaviors or they speak for themselves.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
So yeah, I like the idea of not putting more
pieces of the puzzle in the puzzle. Let's take pieces
away when we can, so thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Julia Cally On
this show, we're always excited to bring forward guests who
can help us understand the Zodiac case better with the
help of their experience and expertise, and we look forward
to have more exciting guests on in the future. Hope
everyone learns something new on this episode. Thanks for listening,
and we'll see you back here soon. On Zodiac Speaking,
(54:55):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Zodiac Speaking.
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Speaker 5 (55:44):
And don't forget you can get plenty of Zodiac details
twenty four to seven by visiting my site at zodiacsiphers
dot com or by going to Mike's site at Zodiac
Killer dot net.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
On behalf of Rich, this is Mike Morpher and i'd
like to say thanks again for listening and we'll see
you on the next episode of Zodiac Speaking
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Speaker 2 (00:56):
This is a Zodiac Speaking Welcome back to Part two
of my conversation with former FBI agent and profiler Julia Kelly.
In our last episode, in part one of our conversation,
Julie discussed what it is an FBI profiler does and
how they can help in cases. She also offered her
(01:17):
opinions on the Zodiac case. In this episode and part
two of her conversation, Julia will apply her skills to
my favorite Zodiac suspect Mac. What things will line up
between Mac and Zodiac and what things won't You're about
to find out. I've already had criminologist Lee Mellern to
compare his Zodiac profile against Mac, so it'll be interesting
(01:39):
to see where Lee and Julia's conclusion is parallel with
each other and where they don't. So I had sent
you some information about my favorite suspect in this case, Mac, Yeah,
and I sort of wanted to give you as much
information as I could. It's not very organized when I say, yeah,
I'm not very organized person, unfortunately, But I tried to
(02:02):
compile everything and send it over to you just to
give you a rundown on what has been found and
uncovered with him. And I'm curious with what I sent you,
what you found in that, what things maybe line up
or don't line up about him possibly being Zodik.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
So a couple of things, like, first of all, does
the timeline even make sense? Right?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
You want to make sure is it possible?
Speaker 3 (02:34):
And I'm it seems like, you know, he's in the vicinity,
he's not like he's out of the country when something happens,
or you know, he's in the hospital when one happens
and he can't you know, So it seems like, Okay, well,
it's not like it's impossible, and he possibly could have
committed all the crimes.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
So that stood out.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
The issue and what it's hard for me because you
could probably take a lot of people and make a
lot of different connections that you know, Oh, this person
lived in Vallejo and they lived close to a pay
phone or something, you know, Like you know what I'm saying,
Like you could probably take a lot of people that
(03:17):
The thing that stuck out to me was a couple
of things, but one of them which I wanted to
ask you about his firearms. You say you mentioned here
that somebody described as a crack firearms guy, Like, so
a good I used to assume a good shot.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Well, he instructed this is after the Zodiac murders were
complete and the letter writing campaign was over with. He
was instructing in the prison system guards how to shoot
handguns and rifles.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So obviously this offender had access to firearms. We did
not think he was a great shot. But that doesn't
mean I mean, there are people who train with weapons
and they're not great shots. I've seen it in the FBI,
So it doesn't necessarily mean or they're not great under pressure.
(04:15):
But he certainly has access to weapons. He has multiple weapons,
so that narrows things down a little bit. He was
accurate and confident in us. He was accurate to a
point and confident to use them. But under high stress situations,
(04:37):
we didn't think he was that great. So when it
comes to like looking at his prior use your your
suspect here, his prior use of weapons. You know, when
they say he's a good shot, is that all under
controlled conditions? Or what is you know? Is he how
capable is he when he's under stressed? Because I don't
think Zodiac was that great under stress. I know some
(04:59):
people think he you know, shot at the car to
get the victims to run, And we didn't think that
that happened on that he did that on purpose, because
that is so high risk. Why would you risk, you know,
a victim trying to get away from you. But I
know other people feel very strongly that he did shoot
(05:22):
at the car to make them run out of the car.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So but that would be our assessment. So I would
want to know.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
How well this suspect was under pressure and had he
ever been in high pressure pressure situations? But what I
would say about these Zodiac, while I didn't think he
was great under pressure, I think he had experience with firearms,
so I would see that in his background. Now compare
(05:50):
that to Golden State killer I thought that the offender
would have had formal firearms training. I thought he was
a good shot. I thought he thought shot well under pressure,
I see a difference with Zodiac, And.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I think it's obviously a lot different shooting at a
target than it is shooting at some people.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
That it's very different. Yeah, yeah, it's very different under
you know. And in Joe's di'angelo's situation, he was very
close range, and while Zodiac did get close, he still
had the victims who were scattering or you know, who ran.
So but I think under pressure, he's wasn't as good
(06:31):
as maybe he thought he would. So when you're looking
at your suspect, you want to look, is there an
element of overconfidence to this particular suspect's use of firearms?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay? Interesting? And what other findings did you see of interest?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
You know, there's so much here.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
They see, these little things like that, you know, seem
to connect him, you know, so it's hard not to
get like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
He lived right there during.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
That time, and I can go through a lot of
things just by memory with you, like, you know, so
I was, you know, we had talked a little bit
about Zobiac's relationships, lack of relationships, whatever you call it.
So this was, you know, one thing that I was
able to verify through friends former college roommates of his,
(07:24):
was that during that nineteen well even before that, the
time they were in college, they all had girlfriends, relationships.
As soon as they graduated college, this little group of
college friends went their own way. They went, they had careers,
one guy became a cop, one guy went to the military.
They had wives, they got married, and one of them
(07:46):
even said that he felt bad for Mac because he
sort of was left on his own. He didn't have anyone,
he didn't date, and you know, so that sort of
and sides with when the zodiac stuff starts and they
would only see him again during these odd random weddings
(08:08):
that would pop up from time to time. So I
was interested in the timing of his college at Chico
State ending in nineteen sixty eight. This friend group that
he had going their own way and giving their lives rolling, well,
he sort of stalled out on his own with no girlfriend,
(08:29):
and he had never had a girlfriend, according to these
people I talked to. So and he did not ultimately
meet and marry his wife until nineteen seventy four, which
coincidentally or not, is when the zodiac letters stop. So
what does from a relationship standpoint, does that look like
to you?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well that I mean, what I can say is like
you're some of the stuff you've put down here, there's
nothing in here that I just say that doesn't fit
with what we see. But when you talk about him
not having a relationship, and you know, that would be
something we would expect that, you know, that would be
in line with what we thought. You just didn't really
(09:12):
have somebody it maybe resented other people. So what I
would want to know is did he ever show he
was resentful in any way, shape or form. Did he
ever express that, Did he ever make flippant comments or
something to his friends in some way about being resentful
(09:33):
that they had found other people?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Or did he say something at a wedding?
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Those are the kinds of things I would be interested
in because you do have this, you know, when you
read his letters, there's just kind of this chip on
his shoulder in a way, and so that's what I
would expect, and I think that's leakage with him. So
while you know, while he doesn't have a relationship, i'd
want to know how this particular suspect actually felt about
(09:59):
it and did anyone notice? And so there's this one
part where he was described as unemotional, reserved and never
visibly angry. Now that isn't contradictory to what we see,
But what I would want to know is did he
ever get angry? Did he ever and when he did
(10:21):
get angry, what was it about?
Speaker 4 (10:23):
What did he say? And was it to the person's
face or was it behind their back.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I'm gonna that's gonna lead me to something that we
were talking earlier and made me think of this. So
I'm going to tell you a story that happened. I
don't know when this happened, but it was after he
was married at some point. I'm assuming he was married
for a while when this happened, and I don't remember.
I'm ad libbing here because I don't remember the exact story.
But he was angry about somebody that I think had
(10:53):
parked someplace or cut them off or parked in his
parking spot. I don't remember exactly what it was. And
he made it a point to tell his wife that
he wanted to get business cards to leave on the
windshields of the people that do this. Kind of stuff
to him. Would that be something that because when I
heard that, that's sort of sort a chill down my spine.
(11:13):
That's it's like a it's it's really getting involved in
petty for something like that. I mean, I could see
a road rage instant yell at somebody and there's a confrontation,
but this is like going above and beyond secretively. And
when I heard that, that's just it sent chills up
my spine that he would do something like that.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah, I mean, that's it's very petty. It's I mean,
he's formulating a plan for these little incidents that don't
really matter but matter a lot to him so that
he can handle them, so he could show them. So yes,
that that is that's weird. I don't I wouldn't say
(11:54):
this makes him the serial killer. And that's what I'm
going to tell you, Mike. I would would never be
able to tell you that your suspect is him. I
would I could never do that. That would be irresponsible
if I tried to do that. But something like that
is something I could see the Zodiac doing because the
Zodiac himself, he's petty, he's vindictive, he gets upset about
(12:17):
little insignificant things that the police may get wrong. I mean,
why does he care, why you know, you killed people,
why do you care that they got these little things wrong?
So that tells me there's a pettiness to him. I
think when we were talking about him, it's hard for
me to remember everything that we talked about, but we
talked about if he's in his place of work, he
may not outwardly show anger if somebody irritates him, but
(12:42):
he would do something maybe behind their back, or say
something to somebody else, or like leave a nasty note
or whatever. It would It would not be something he
would necessarily have explosive rage over it, but he'd come
back to it. So that's an interesting story about the cards.
It's very petty. It's a vindictive thing. And it's also
(13:04):
you know, why not just say, hey, you know, can
you not park like that? If that really bothers you?
But no, he's got to leave cards. He's got to
let them know.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
It's such an.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Over the top reaction to insignificant things that we all
deal with every day, and.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
It's it seems like like a small thing. It's not
like he went into an outburst and pulled a gun
out on the guy or anything like that. But it's
so sneaky and small and petty, Like you mentioned that,
it just stands out as just being very weird. Yeah,
because I think I think most of us somebody cuts
(13:42):
us off or does something, parks on the spot, whatever,
jumps into a spot when we're about to pulling. You know,
the worst is you yell at the whendow, you give
him the finger, and then you drive away and then
and then it's over. For this just seemed very strange
to want to take extra steps to deal with it.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It's a long term plan, is what it is.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Is.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Yeah, it's a long term plant.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I want to have cards so that every time this happens,
I can show them, you know, rather than just like
you said, being I guess confrontational. I mean, I guess
it's a you know, a less violent way. But it's
it's odd. It is a very odd behavior, and it's
again so petty. Which is I see that. I see
(14:23):
that people who know this offender would probably describe him
as having petty grievances or having grievances that they didn't
even realize he had until maybe it came out a
little later. Just things that he, what you know, felt
slighted about that most people wouldn't. He might take things
(14:43):
the wrong way and have inappropriate reactions to them, and
those reactions might not be that, like you said, this
outburst of anger, but something more sneaky, more underhanded, and
you know, a way.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
To show them, but without.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Having a direct confrontation with them.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
And that sort of leads me to the next thing,
because there was a I think I mentioned there was
a threat on a baseball manager of a team called
the Novado Knicks.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Yeah, I remember that one.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, And they had played the Vacaville prison team which
Mac was a prison guard at this point, and they
beat them pretty badly. And then not long after, I
think it was the next week, this coach of the
other team receives this threat from somebody calling themselves Zodiac.
(15:37):
That was, you know, basically telling him not to leave
his home for the next ten Saturdays or who would
be killed? Do you? And this is an on courr
firm Zodiac letter, And you know, the letter itself no
longer exists. I can't even get my hands on it
through a foyer request to see what it even looked like.
But with something like that in this. To me, he
(16:00):
sounds like a sort of a petty thing too, that
Zodiac might do. Do you think that could be a
legitimate Zodiac letter? And that threat against him may have
had something to do with you know that that baseball game.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
I don't know, but it wouldn't It also wouldn't surprise
me if, like we talked about earlier, this offender writing
letters under his real name. You know, when he's upset
or something, he might do that he might disguise. He
might write a letter not related to Zodiac and just
disguise his name.
Speaker 4 (16:33):
I could.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I actually could see that, probably more than I could
him using his real name. Like if he's irritating, if
you want to write a letter to the editor, he
might not use his real name just to be irritating. Now,
can I say it's a Zodiac letter? No, But I
wouldn't be surprised that that wouldn't rule I would not
(16:55):
rule that out and say absolutely not him, because we
we know he does those types of things, okay, and
we know he has petty grievances okay.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
And then there's another thing that would would he make
or convince his wife to mail a letter on his
behalf the real Zodiac.
Speaker 4 (17:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Maybe okay, because there's another instance where mac there was
an article sort of criticizing prison guards, or if I
remember correctly.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
She wrote, but she wrote the letter, sent the letter.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
She sent the letter in her name. So okay, I
don't have the truth that he put her up to it,
but it seems like she's really concerned about it, and
I wonder if he got in her ear.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yes, So okay, I see what you're saying. I misunderstood
because I was going to say I would doubt if
he had something to say that he would have someone
else mail his letters for him.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I would just see.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Him wanting that's part of the process of you know, oh,
I'm going to sneak to the mail, but put this
in there, and then good, I can't wait till they
get it, you know. It's kind of like that anticipation. Okay,
it's it's gone, it's out there, it's being mailed, you know.
So I think that's part of the thrill for him,
is to maybe even actually go and put them in
the mail. Now, what could have happened in a situation
(18:14):
like that, Let's just say he's Zodiac. I'm not saying that.
But let's say he goes home and he's so upset.
He's complaining to her, and he gets her to the
point he's not saying you need to write a letter,
but she realizes he's so upset, she becomes upset by it.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
She you know, you know, pens her own letter. That's possible.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
It's very likely that the reason in that particular case,
the reason she wrote a letter at all, is because
that was something he was complaining about. Okay, it doesn't
necessarily mean he told her to do it, but I
think it's probably he was. If he wasn't upset, why
would she even care? Why, you know, like, why would
(18:55):
it even matter? I mean, maybe she's mad on her own,
but I I would suspect whether he's Zodiac or not,
that was something that bothered him and he complained about
it to her and that got her upset.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
And going back to his childhood, I there wasn't a
lot of you know, we were able to uncover, but
there was one instance of a BB gun shooting where
he shot out something, which I don't know. It just
seems seems like a lot of young kids with a
BB gun just shot shoot stuff. They shouldn't be shooting.
So I don't know how much stock you can put it,
but that's the only thing. If there's anything in his
(19:33):
youth that we found that was any kind of crime
that we could see.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
I would look more for things like sneakiness, stuff which
you may not have, you know, access to, or even
have knowledge of, like maybe things he did to other
kids at school that they you know, odd things happened
or something just something more along those lines. I mean,
the thing about the BB gun, all that tells me
(20:02):
while you know he had access to weaponry early on,
but I don't want to My brother, my stepbrother shot
a bird with a BB gun.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So many boys I knew growing up that stuff with
the BB guns. I almost don't want to count that.
So it's just again looking at everything background, that's the
only thing we could see.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yeah, I grew up in a you know, a small town,
rural community, and you know we had guns and weapons
and stuff like that and BB guns and and my yeah,
so my brothers were you know.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
So I don't I don't want to put too much
paid into that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
But you can draw from you can say, Okay, it's
not like he didn't have any access to weapons. Ever,
I mean he started at a young age, he had weapons.
So does that mean he became a killer? No, but
it it certainly shows he had the capability to do
maybe someday what this killer did.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
I guess that's how I would put.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
That, Okay, And then early on too, we know and
then I was told this firsthand from a college roommate
of his, that he had a strained relationship with his
parents because and then and then this is the second
hand information that the roommate was giving me that he
that Mac felt that his parents were much older than
(21:20):
all his friend's parents, or this is the roommate's opinion
of why they were restriction between them because they were
much older than people their ages parents. So they were
they were much older is what I'm trying to say
then than he was. Do you ever see that as
a as a possible some kind of disconnect with the
(21:40):
parents based on their their age or not being close.
And they also said that he had an icy relationship
with his father. And we also know that his mom
had a nursing school, that she a nursery that she
ran out of their business, so he was exposed to
(22:02):
young children being there and I think I even put
it in the thing that I sent to you that
he was encouraged that either his dad was encouraged to
be called dad by these kids. But would that have
any kind of impact possibly on Mac as a young
child seeing this.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Stuff, I think that could definitely have an impact if
you feel and we don't know for sure if he was.
This was a friend's impression, but if you feel for
some reason you're different or your parents are different, and
you feel left out because of that, because maybe you
can't do things with other kids, or your parents can't
(22:39):
be friends with the other parents like the rest of
the kids are, or something like that, that could certainly
have an impact on his sense of belonging, his self esteem.
He may become resentful for those reasons. I don't know
if that's the case with him, but like you know,
this was a friend's observation that that is possible. The
(23:00):
daycare stuff, you know, I couldn't draw too much information
from that. I thought it was a little weird about,
you know, making the kids call his father daddy. That
just seemed a little bit it was just maybe a
(23:20):
little bit presumptuous. So I know, the daycare, what you know,
serviced people or children who may not have father figures
in their lives. But I thought was a little presumptuous
for that to be encouraged of the kids. It just
made you know, I know, if I was a kid
(23:44):
and I was being to old call that older man daddy,
I would not like that.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
It would just be creepy to me. I don't know,
but this was a different time. I mean, I guess
it's not that different.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
I'm pretty old now, so, but it just seemed a
little presumptuous. It's a weird behavior, just not something I
can put too much weight into, but it's I just
that stood out to me is that's.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Just kind of creepy. But I don't want to.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Put too much emphasis on it, because people do weird
things all the time that don't mean anything.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
It just seemed weird.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Yeah, I mean, so we all have weirdness in our families.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah. See. And I did want to touch on Max's
confirm interest in Cipher's. So his wife met him in
nineteen seventy four, the same year the zodiac letter stopped,
and she married him later that year, so they were
together a short time before they got married. So everything
she knows she knows secondhand what he told her, what
(24:46):
she learned from other people perhaps, but essentially, at some point,
and I think this was around two thousand and seven,
the Zodiac movie came out, directed by David Fincher. Yeah,
and I guess after she claims they never watch that
movie together, by the way, and after that movie came out,
(25:07):
he wanted another copy of a cipher and codebook that
she said he previously had back in nineteen eighty or something.
He wanted another copy of it because he liked the
book so much, and he made her by the book.
And yeah, I have my own theory that because he
probably didn't want his name being connected to anything that
(25:30):
was Zodiac at all, and he made her by the book.
You'd think that move of making her buy that book
could be indicative of what you said orlier, that these
guys don't want to get caught, that he's trying to
put some extra layer of protection between himself and purchasing
his second copy of that book, a book that he
(25:51):
liked so much.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Sure, yeah, I could see that. I mean that's I mean,
that's something definitively we can say he studied ciphers, he
was interested in them. He probably spent a lot of
time at them reading these books. And so if this
guy is a Zodiac, he it was well known. It
(26:16):
was I think it was put out to the public.
This guy must be in the military or study, you know, ciphers,
and he may very well have had her buy the
book so as not to straw attention to himself. Certainly
I would agree with that. Still can't say he's Zodiac.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Sorry, I wish I wasn't expecting you to.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I mean, but sure, that's like that, this is a
red flag, like why not go buy the book yourself,
you know, so you know, if it's him, that's certainly
why he did that.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And along the lines just distancing himself from the Zodia crimes.
This is something that I've only recently discovered in the
last week or so. I don't even think I mailed
this to you. But when the Zoeodiac movie, the news
articles started appearing in two thousand and five, they started
appearing that we're going to be filming the Zodiac movie,
(27:10):
this major movie directed by David Fincher, and there it's
going to be filmed in and around the Bay Area.
It was within weeks of the first appearances that they
decided they were going to move from Solano County, which
he had lived in his entire life, and moved to Oregon.
(27:32):
And you know, I find that I found the timing
that here's a guy that's lived in this area his
entire life, and all of a sudden he's deciding to
move now with something again putting distance in between himself.
Might that be a reason for him to decide, let's
move at that point?
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, maybe the attention made him uncomfortable. It could it
could be. I'm you know, I would want to know
from his background, had he ever talked about moving to Oregon?
Was there any significant changes in his life right at
that time?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
What else?
Speaker 3 (28:08):
Or is it just the minute they found out about
the movie being there, he's like, we gotta go.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I tail it out of there. I'd really want to know.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Had he ever talked about Oregon before or But that's
what we're always looking for, is you know, pre impost
defense behavior and people, you know, after they commit a crime,
do they leave the area unexpectedly without a good reason
and things like that. So I would want to know
is it was there really a good reason or was
(28:37):
he uncomfortable because so much attention was being drawn to
the area because of the filming of movie, and he didn't.
He was uncomfortable with that, you know, microscope being put
back on the crimes so close to where he was, okay.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And then the final thing I wanted to talk about
was some of the stretch because you know, when I
read through the Golden State Killer documents, which I didn't
have any of this in the Zodiac files. There wasn't
really much I came across in the way of profiles,
but I had read a couple of different profiles, not yours,
so I didn't read anything from you on the Golden
State Killer. But they thought that between nineteen eighty one
(29:21):
and nineteen eighty six that the Golden State Killer would
there'd be something major in his life, a career change,
something a birth of a child, because he had stopped
from nineteen eighty one to nineteen eighty six, and he
murdered somebody in nineteen eighty one, he didn't murder it
again until nineteen eighty six, and they felt that there
(29:41):
was two major changes that you could look back in
his life and if you found out who he was,
and you would see them. And sure enough they corresponded
with the birth of both of his daughters. So that
was when I really started getting fascinated with these spressures,
these major life things. So I found that again, nineteen
seventy one, the Zodiac stops writing a letter. That's the
(30:03):
time Mac takes this job with the state. Nineteen seventy four,
he meets his future wife and the letters start up again,
and then he marries her later in nineteen seventy four,
and then there's never another confirmed Zodiac letter after that.
So would those be streussures that you would look for
those kinds of things with his starting this career and
(30:26):
meeting and marrying his wife, that coincides so well with
the stops and starts with the Zodiac letters.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yes, And if we were advising law enforcement, that's what
we would tell them. We would say, particularly if they're
trying to prioritize suspects, we would say, Okay, the crimes
were very consistent up to this point they stop, So look,
you know, you want to look for a prior oritize
offender who maybe had a major life event or stressor
(30:56):
you know exactly exactly what you're saying whether and it
doesn't have to be something bad marriage can be stressful,
even though it's a happy most of the time, a
happy situation when you get married. Certainly the birth of
a child is wonderful but also very stressful, and you
have major disruptions in your life. Many people take time
(31:19):
off from work and things like that. So yes, those
are the absolutely the things you'd be looking for when
you're prioritizing suspects. Not only that, but before the crimes too,
like when did they start? Was there a stressor before that?
Was there something a major thing? We don't always see it,
but those are things we would look for when looking
(31:41):
for suspects in the case.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I was curious. I started thinking about this, What would
the relationship between a zodiac and a potential wife if
he was married. What would that look like? In your opinion,
what do you think that would be? You know that
the way they interacted, the way their shared interest, their
overall relationship, I.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Think you'd see that he needed control, he needed his
own space. He likely became irritated if challenged or criticized
in any way. I wouldn't necessarily say there would be
(32:33):
physical abuse, but there would likely be some emotional abuse
that's either recognized or not recognized by the spouse. But
I would also see that when he was angry, some
very passive aggressive behavior toward a significant other. And even
(32:54):
if he wasn't angry, but you might see this passive aggressiveness.
I think that is evident in his letter as well.
So you know, do I see that there would be
any huge red flags that he was extremely violent and abusive?
Not necessarily I would see. I would expect to see
perhaps a little more subtle, subtle signs of emotional abuse.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Very interesting.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Does this fit?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Well?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
We don't, so the situation I don't know. Well the
situation is. And I'll sort of just give you a
backstory here. So when I first found this guy, I
talked about him publicly, but I didn't name him. And
something I slipped up and said somebody found and linked
back to him, and a troll on Twitter reached out
(33:49):
to this guy's wife and told her, Hey, this guy
thinks your husband was a Zodiac. So I sort of
inadvertently introduced her to the idea that her husband was
a Zodiac. And I had reached out to her by mail,
and I didn't tell her what it was about. I
said I wanted to speak to her regarding something I
(34:12):
was researching, and she didn't respond. But after she read
this thing on Twitter, she did respond, and she actually
joined this form to my surprise, and participated in the
conversation and laid out what she knew. And she get ever,
whatever reason she should want to do that. You know,
(34:34):
if my thinking was, if somebody reached out to this
and said something like this about my wife, I tell
him the f off and never talked to him. I
And this is just my opinion. I got the feeling
she was interested in hearing about what was being said,
and maybe something in her mind maybe thought she should
(35:00):
interact with us. That's just my opinion. I you know,
she might tell you different, but I got the vibe
that she felt there was maybe something there. She denied
him ever being violent, and of course, you know, she
said she wanted to clear his name, and and she
(35:20):
was pretty cordial and answered a lot of her questions.
But then they questions, some of the things became very strange.
Like I asked her, you know, I said, could we
you know, potentially have more writing or photographs or audio
specifically to help rule him out. And she said that
all of the stuff that like that was destroyed, there's
(35:43):
nothing left of him, let her wise photo wise, audio wise,
video wise. She said that her father in law his dad,
had in a fit of rage burned everything or destroyed everything.
So essentially the story is there's nothing left of Mac
to listen to, to see. And I'm thinking to myself,
(36:06):
that's very weird. If it's true, it's very weird. And
if it's not true, why would someone make that up.
So that's sort of where we were with what she
had to say. And again, she was giving us information
from the zodiac yours from nineteen sixty to nineteen seventy four.
She's giving us second hand because she didn't know him
(36:26):
until nineteen seventy four. So, you know, I didn't feel
she was necessarily being dishonest. I think she was giving
us what she could, which she you know, she could
have just told us to screw off and not talk
to us at all. But you know, she actually did
answer some questions. But some of the things she did
put forward we were pretty led to more questions and
(36:49):
a lot of the stuff we had regarding their relationship,
and some of the odd things were from a blog
she had published way before I ever found him, and
thought he might be zodiac. She had mentioned this book,
this codebook. After he died. She had a box that
was written guilt on and this book that he was
(37:13):
supposed to have thrown out was still in this box.
It was called the guilt box. Now she says that
it was called the guilt box because she wanted to
make him feel guilty about not getting rid of stuff.
That's the excuse she gave anyway. But this code cipher
book was still there, and she mentioned on her blog
post that she thought he had gotten rid of it
(37:34):
years ago, so this had some sentimental value. And she
mentioned how it was the second copy he had owned,
so this cipher book was pretty important to him. And
it just, you know, interacting with hers led to other
you know, different questions and different things that different outlook
for for this conversation. M I mean again, not to
(37:56):
take you, not to take you too far off track.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
I mean, but that whole thing about well, like you said,
whether it's true or not. But let's say it is
true that his father burned all his stuff. That's not
a normal response, like to just take your child and
stuff and burn it all.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I don't know, and I want to be fair
I don't know if it was burned it or throw
it out. I don't remember the exact but basically it
was no longer available. And one of the things I
remember was a sentimental I think a sweater his mom
had made. I don't remember what it was, but it was.
That's the long and short of it. That all the
stuff that could possibly link to mac is gone, according.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
To her, got to be something left.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Well, that's if I if something happened to me right now,
somebody wanted to find something, they'd find all kinds of
stuff for me from my wife would be able to give.
And again I understand it, she doesn't have a responsibility
to show us anything, but I'm just going by taking
her word that this is what happened, and it's just
it Just to me, is is very strange.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Yeah, I you know, there are certain things that I
would want to ask her, just you know obviously that
he did have an interest in the codebreakers. I would
want to know what kinds of guns did he have
and did he keep exactly? And you probably do know that.
I don't know if she would tell you that. I
would also want to know did he ever because this
(39:27):
is something Michael Butterfield had asked us, did we think
he would have kept news clippings, and we thought, yeah,
we do.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
We don't.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
We wouldn't necessarily say that about every offender, but because
he had so much interaction with media, it's very likely
he would have kept news clipping So I'd want to
know did he ever have news clippings of the case.
And just because he had him doesn't mean it's him,
but it would be something that would be interesting if
(39:55):
he did, in combination with other things, you know. So
and then the behavioral things that you and I always
that already we talked about, you know, how he would react,
you know, just because in the fact he didn't have
she says no violent history to me, that doesn't rule
(40:16):
him out at all. We had there's a lot of
very very violent serial killers and brutal beatings of victims,
and they were not physically abusive in their in their
intimate with their intimate partners.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
And the one interesting thing that she had mentioned, I
had asked her if she had ever if mac had
ever seen the movie The Exorcist, because the Zodiacs. One
of his last letters, he mentioned The Exorcist and is
the most satirical comedy that he had ever seen, and
she's admitted that they had seen it. I don't remember
(41:01):
the full story. I think they said it was very
hot or something, and they didn't even make it through
the whole movie. And I think if I remember her
comments again, I'm going by memory here, so I think
she recalled that he said this is a dumb movie anyway,
or something like that, and they left. So she admitted
seeing that movie. And I don't remember the year if
(41:23):
she said that she watched it right when it came
out in nineteen seventy four, when Zodiac sent this letter,
but she did admit that they had seen the movie together.
So it was, you know, a little bit of confirmation
there that something Zodiac had mentioned in a letter she
had admitted to it being true.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, and that referenced the movie. Obviously, it was a
horror movie. It's not supposed to be a comedy of
any kind. But it's sort of his way of saying
that's funny, being sarcastic. That would be a characteristic I
would expect in his normal everyday life, saying things that
are to the contrary of other things like that are
a little bit surprising or shocking, you know, that's.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Not supposed to be a comedy.
Speaker 3 (42:09):
But he makes these sort of morbid not morbid jokes,
but you know, these these little sarcastic jokes that are
not in line with really what the topic of the
movie is, like, you know, laughing at something that's you
shouldn't be laughing at. I would think those are the
types of characteristics that people that knew him may recognize
(42:31):
in him, because that's the stuff that leaks out of
his letters. His sarcasm, his flippancy, his resentment, his need
to correct the record and be right, and things like that.
These are all what I believe to be his true
characteristics and his inadequacy. Certainly his crimes reflect that. Yeah so,
(42:55):
and likely resentful of people who are of a high
or status than him, whether it's financially, whether it's educationally,
whether it's in the workplace, things like that. There would
be this underlying resentment impossible, very passive aggressive behavior.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Unless you saw anything else that I sent you that
you think is worth mentioning or stood.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Out to you, I think no, I don't. I don't
think there was. I mean, like I said, you know
his timeline, You can't. There's nothing in his timeline that
you could say he couldn't have done it. I mean,
that would be the first thing that I would look for, like,
you know, is there anything that just totally rules.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
Him out the rest of it?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
You know, it's really hard to say, Oh, I know here,
I just see it right now, dear Lodge. Okay, yeah,
I'm sorry, I totally for That was the other one
I wanted to say. I mean, that is such an
obscure reference that stood out to me. I'm so sorry
I forgot that was. Yeah, that stood out to me.
(44:05):
Very obscure record or reference there, Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
And it's the knowledge that he would have of Deer Lodge,
because you know, a lot of people think that maybe
it was a slip up because he intended not to
leave victims. But you know, he mentions Deer Lodge and
something that was not in the news to people in California,
didn't make California news, but somehow Zodiac knew about it.
(44:35):
So the fact he had family there and had a
family member that was dying there at that time, you know,
I can just see a scenario where his parents are
just making a small talk with him and they mentioned
what's going on in Deer Lodge and he brings it
up at Lake Barry Essa, not thinking twice about it
because he's planning and killing these people.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Yeah, it was to me in the crime itself. Even
before I saw this, it was such an obscure reference.
I thought that you don't it's it's you know, you
need I think in the Golden State Killer case, jody'angelo
would reference like Bakersfield, you know, like I'm Bonnie.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
He references Bonnie one time.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
He does, Yeah, you know not. But that's not something
I would say, Oh, yeah, that's obscure because Baker's Field
is a well known place.
Speaker 4 (45:23):
I just wouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Found that to be obscure enough that I would say
that person has some maybe connection here or something. Now,
I thought, dear Lodge, I don't know how prevalent. I
never heard about it. I only heard about it through
this case. I never heard about it before, and I
you know, I grew up on the West Coast. I
guess that doesn't mean much. But it was obscure enough
(45:46):
for me to believe that he had some kind of connection,
I mean something, you know.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
And I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
He could have read about it, he could have been there,
but you know, this particular person, you know, had a
family member that was there, so you know, I that
stood out to me. But again, that's not something I
would say it's.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
Him that It's just an interesting nugget.
Speaker 4 (46:13):
It's an interesting nugget.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
That was. That was the one thing I think that
I thought interesting. But I mean, how many people have
connections there in California, I don't know. But I hadn't
heard of it until the only way I've heard of
it is through the case. Okay, but you know, like
you hear Bakersfield, we all know Bakersfields crazy. It's not
(46:35):
that unique. This was This is a this was a
very unique reference. I'm not really sure we really spoke
about that that much. But now when I saw it
in your outline, I thought, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that
that is unique enough that I would have said, this
(46:56):
offender probably has some note, some kind of connection or
read something.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Okay, yeah, that's what I think.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
But that was the last thing that I that stood
out to me. I mean, like I said, there's nothing
that I'm just like, well, it can't be him. But
I also I'm so cautious because as you know, and
I know you've studied this guy. But there are so
many suspects sometimes in these serial murder cases, and you know,
(47:26):
there's so many times where you think we've got it,
they're going to go get DNA and it's not him,
and it's not you know, it's just disappointment after disappointment.
So I don't like to get excited about any suspect ever, So,
you know, and a lot of people could fit a profile.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
That's why it doesn't solve crimes or identify offenders.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Sure, And then I do know what I was going
to mention. So there was another couple unconfirmed letters from
the Zodiac. One was nineteen seventy eight, that was the
same year Mac became a born again Christian. And then
there was one in nineteen ninety the one I mentioned
the Xerox keys that was in Eureka, California, which is
(48:09):
nowhere near Vallejo, And it turns out that Mac owned
property there. Now, being that these are unconfirmed Zodia clarters,
they don't know how much you can really talk about them,
I guess. But if they were to be deemed legitimate
Zodiac letters, you know, I wonder if the significance of
the nineteen seventy eight letter coinciding with his being born again,
(48:33):
and then the nineteen ninety one all the way out
in Eureka, California, which is where MAC owned property. I
just found. But those the timing and the locations interesting
for both.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you know.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
BTK reaches out after all those years, you know what
triggered him? You know, you just don't always know why
they would do something like that. Why if these are
Zodiac letters, could it be a stressor very well, could
it be he just felt like doing it because he
enjoys doing it. I couldn't say. But in any of
(49:16):
these letters too, I mean, he's got to be in
the area to mail them. So the fact you connected
him to Eureka and that's not a location Zodiac was
known to be other than potentially that letter. And oh
now your suspect lives there, so again that's again something
(49:40):
that isn't something that could exclude him. You keep there's
still that's still another point of wealth he could still
be included.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
Yeah, And unfortunately that's just an uncom from letter, so
we don't know if it's really from the real Zotic.
But so any other final thoughts.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
On the MAC that you had well, I mean I
appreciated looking at him if I were if you were
a detective and you wanted more information about him, I
could send you a general assessment questionnaire and I would
ask you to give that to people that knew him
to fill out and we could do more of a
(50:18):
personality assessment.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
It's a document.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
It's like a questionnaire that we would give people or
to detectives, to give to people that either knew a
victim very well or knew an offender very well, so
that we could do a personality profile, either to develop
victimology or to have a better understanding of an offender.
And a lot of times those would be used for
potential interview strategies. But it's not something that we would
(50:47):
use to say, oh, yes, this is your offender. This
would be something that we would use to better understand
your suspect. So if you ever found people knew him
that would be willing to fill out the questionnaire, you know,
that's that's.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Been a tall order because I've only found a very
limited amount of people that a lot.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yeah, yeah, you don't need a lot like we would say,
you know, depending on who you would have access to
somewhere between three to five people that maybe knew him
in different aspects of his life that would be willing.
You know, we would always tell people that wouldn't tell
the suspect. Obviously, when you're doing it for a victim,
it you know, Yeah, you know, most of the time
(51:29):
it's family members, you know, that want the case solved,
so they're willing to fill them out. But when you
have suspects that you may want to interview, detectives have
to be careful about who they give those two because
they want to tip them off that they're being looked at.
Speaker 4 (51:46):
But it's really good.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
I could send you the questionnaire so they can just
have it and if you ever wanted to give it
to anybody, and if you ever, you know, had a
couple you wanted to send us, it would be something
that I would not look at on my own. I'd
probably bring in all of their colleagues and then we
could just kind of go over this guy with you
just as a as an exercise. Yeah, but again, but
(52:08):
again we'd kind of end at the same place. We
can't tell you if it's him or not, but here's
what we think about this particular suspect.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
Well, yeah, and it's just good to get the feedback.
And I really appreciate all the feedback you've given us
and all the information about the case and what you do,
and and I really appreciate it coming on.
Speaker 4 (52:25):
I appreciate you having me.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
I I am actually very honored to be asked to
come on to a show to talk about this guy
when you have or not this guy, but this case,
when you have studied it so in depth. So I'm
glad that our show resonated with you a bit.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (52:45):
You know, either people are either going to hear you
talk about it and they're they're going to think you're
an idiot, or they're going to think you're you know,
you're a genius. Usually it's one one or the other.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
If you value hopefully it's not the not the idiot.
Speaker 3 (52:59):
Well, I mean if no, I'm us like, if if
we validate people's opinions, they think we did a good job,
and if we don't, then we're like, you don't know
what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (53:08):
Well, I'm seeking the truth wherever it leads, to be
honest with you, so you know, if it leads to
my suspect or somebody else, if it's there's a resolution
one day. That's that's what I'm seeking. So you know, again,
thank you for all the information you give us.
Speaker 4 (53:21):
You're welcome.
Speaker 3 (53:22):
And I would never rule anybody out just based on behavior.
I mean, I mean certain behaviors obviously, but like let's
say there's something with your suspect that I thought, oh no,
I don't think that fits. I still wouldn't rule him out.
I would never rule a suspect out based on a profile.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
Sure of somebody being away something solid that he's out
of the country or something, or in prison.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
Yeah, I mean, and those are investigative things that yeah,
they just can't be him, you know.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
So, but behaviorally, like we always tell people, like let's
say we say it's a white male agent between this age.
We say, but don't rule out anybody else who.
Speaker 4 (53:59):
Might be a bit suspect.
Speaker 3 (54:01):
I mean, this is just to help you maybe narrow
down or prioritize your suspects. But I wouldn't rule anybody
out unless it's you know, something just very significant in
their behavior, like example, Jody Angelo versus Zodiac not the
same the behaviors or they speak for themselves.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
So yeah, I like the idea of not putting more
pieces of the puzzle in the puzzle. Let's take pieces
away when we can, so thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Julia Cally On
this show, we're always excited to bring forward guests who
can help us understand the Zodiac case better with the
help of their experience and expertise, and we look forward
to have more exciting guests on in the future. Hope
everyone learns something new on this episode. Thanks for listening,
and we'll see you back here soon. On Zodiac Speaking,
(54:55):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of Zodiac Speaking.
If you'd like to help more people find the show,
please take a moment to rate and review us on
the podcast platform you're listening now on and make sure
you're subscribed so you don't misten any new episodes. Just
a reminder, new episodes of Zodiac Speak and want air
on Saturdays. To support this show, please consider an Abject
(55:16):
Insider subscription through Apple Podcast for only four ninety nine
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You'll get not only ad free early access and bonus
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(55:36):
major platform. Simply search for Zodiac Speaking Podcast on your favorites.
You can also find our homepage at Zodiac Speaking dot com.
Speaker 5 (55:44):
And don't forget you can get plenty of Zodiac details
twenty four to seven by visiting my site at zodiacsiphers
dot com or by going to Mike's site at Zodiac
Killer dot net.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
On behalf of Rich, this is Mike Morpher and i'd
like to say thanks again for listening and we'll see
you on the next episode of Zodiac Speaking
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