Is there a New England Serial Killer? Roundtable with Lordan Arts and Crawlspace Media

Is there a New England Serial Killer? Roundtable with Lordan Arts and Crawlspace Media

In this special episode, Mike Morford from Zodiac Speaking teams up with friends of the show, John Lordan of Lordan Arts, and Tim Pilleri and Lance Reenstierna of Crawlspace Media, in a roundtable discussion. Together they tackle a series of New England deaths that have been making headlines, and have some people asking the question; is there a New England Serial Killer? 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, listeners, this is Mike Morford, co host of Zodiac speaking,
and I want to invite you to listen to the
special episode. It's a collaboration or crossover episode with some
friends of the show, John Lord, Lord and Arts and
Timpleary and Lance reenstern A from Cross Space Media. We
got together to discuss a perplexing series of deaths that
have recently happened in the New England region and it

(00:22):
has everyone asking the question is there a serial killer
in New England? Between John, Tim, Lance and myself, we've
probably covered thousands of cases of all types, so we
were all happy to sit down together and dive into
these New England cases to see if we can make
sense of what's happening there. We approach it from various angles,
using our past experiences and seeing what conclusions we can

(00:43):
come to. This episode is a deep dive into the
facts and theories in the case. We explore what we
know and still don't know to this point. Hope you
enjoy a special crossover episode and I'll see you back
here soon.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
So I think at this point it's a good time
to bring on my guests or this kind of true
crime roundtable that we're going to do on this topic
here today. We've got Tim and Lance that are joining us,
as well as my good buddy from Three Men in
a Mystery, Mike Morfford. So let's go ahead and bring
everyone to the show here. What's up to? Hey? Hey,

(01:19):
how are you?

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Hey?

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Everryuin good? Hey, morph good? See you again?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I like always?

Speaker 2 (01:26):
And can we get a hello from Lance so we
could see Lance?

Speaker 3 (01:29):
You sure? Ken? Hello John? Thank you for having us on.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Of course, of course. Guys, so I know we've got
a ton of information to go through, but is there
anything that you want to start with before we dive
into these individual instances? Are any of you on the
fence about this? Do you think there could be something
to this? Where are you guys with this serial killer theory?

Speaker 3 (01:54):
I just want to start by saying you did a
such a great job recapping off the top there, just
giving people an idea of what we're about to talk about,
especially giving them a sense of like the surroundings the
area there, and making sure that people remember that this
isn't the plot to a new Scream movie. This is
like lives that we're talking about who have family members

(02:17):
attached to them and the purpose of us doing this
here is to go through as many details as possible
to try to make some sense of why these clusters
are happening. But anyway, Yeah, that's what I just wanted
to start with by thanking you for doing that.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, yeah, of course, Tim.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
Yeah, we've been covering this story a little bit from
sort of a wide view, trying to discuss the I
don't know, I guess this moment in time online because
this story has really gotten gas from social media and
essentially nowhere else, Like no one in law enforcement is
talking about this being a serial killer. In fact, they're

(02:55):
saying the opposite. But it's not something we can completely ignore.
I feel like, because well we live in New England.
We're getting texts from like personal friends who I don't
even know if they listen to our shows, but they're
like texting us and it's like, hey, you guys following this.
So I think it's of major public interest across the country,

(03:18):
but especially over here. At this point, I would say
there's no reason to believe there is a serial killer
responsible for most of these bodies, but I also don't
think there's enough information to say there definitely isn't. And
then when you break down each story, I actually do
think there could be a serial killer or even two

(03:40):
that is involved in this whole story, but certainly not
responsible for all of these debts.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'll be interested to see what cases you think are connected,
because honestly, when looking through this, there's a pair of
them that are kind of sticking out to me as
well as as possibly being connected. Of course, someone that's
very familiar with connections like this. More, when you were
looking into the Golden State killer, did you find that
there were other murders that were being attached to that

(04:07):
that did not turn out to be accurate.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, sort of after the fact. I mean, I mean
early on, before the case was solved, there were people
that said, hey, maybe this case is connected, check into it.
And you know, later on, I think after DeAngelo was arrested,
they seem to think that most of those cases were
not connected to him or didn't have physical evidence. And

(04:32):
you know, after all these years now he's been in
prison for what five six years, there's no there hasn't
been any cases connected to him outside of the ones
he was you know, sent to prison for. But I
think it just goes to show you that when people
start thinking about cases with similarities or in a general area,

(04:55):
they start lumping them together, for better or for worse.
Now my personal feeling is and we covered this case
on Criminology a few weeks back, and I remember responding
to a couple of listener comments and questions. They were
all over the place that the people I was responding
with some thought as a serial killer. Some people said,

(05:16):
nothing to see here, some people thought there was a
combination of things going on. So I'm sort of on
the fence as to what's going on here. I think,
you know, in some of these cases, we actually have
some answers. We know what happened in some of these cases.
In some of them, you know, we don't. We don't
even know the cause of death in every case. And

(05:37):
then and then there are other ones that are clear cut,
you know, cases of murder, and you know, it's a
question to see, you know, what links him, if anything.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, one of the first things that came up when
I spoke to Tim and Lance about this, I was
wondering about any connectivity or even if this was just
a new spin on something we had heard about before,
the Connecticut Valley killer. Can you guys tell us a
little bit about that and how this is not that instance.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
Sure, I mean a lot of time has elapsed since
the last recorded or alleged Connecticut River serial killer attack happened,
and that was in nineteen eighty seven. That was Jane
Barowski and she survived. And prior to that, those killings,
those the series of murders took place in the mid

(06:30):
to late seventh like from the from like seventy seven,
seventy eight to the latest one that was you know,
about ten years later. So that was the area time
wise where this occurred. Also geographically, even though it's still
in New England, the ones that are happening now seemed
to be aside from the Springfield, Massachusett those two in Springfield, Massachusetts,

(06:54):
it's more south eastern. And yeah, there you go. So
the map right there, you're looking at southeastern New England.
Whereas the attacks from the original Connecticut River Valley killings
that was about halfway up the Vermont, New Hampshire border

(07:15):
in an area that was the Connecticut River Valley region
separated by the Connecticut River. So if you were to
drive straight up like or as the crow flies as
they say, a few hours, a couple of hours two
and a half hours or so, so not super close
to where these are taking place.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Gotcha, gotcha, Tim, Can you give us a little insight
into this area. I mean it's hard when we're just
looking at it from a map. You know, I've never
quite been to this area before. But this cluster, obviously
it's been grouped, right because we've got this theory that
is grouping the region. But is this I mean we're

(07:55):
talking several states. Is this something where like we think
it would be a truck driver or do you have
any any thoughts on how the geography of this or
speaking to us?

Speaker 4 (08:08):
Well, we spoke with Michael Arndtfield, who is, i leave,
the director of the Murder Accountability Project, and he did
let us in on some knowledge about the geography. So
the the where where the bodies were found. That cluster
is not too large of a cluster to be considered

(08:33):
victims of a serial killer. But I really don't see
much connection to these murders, especially the ones that are
further away now, the ones closer to each other. I
think that's worthy of a closer look, especially the Springfield ones.
But I just don't know. I think m O and

(08:55):
and other factors sort of take us away from the
being anything really similar other than the region of New England,
which is small when you're looking at the map of
the entire country, but large when you're here and driving around.
You know, it takes a few hours maybe to get
between some of these locations. So I don't know, it's

(09:19):
a tough one. I don't really think there are any
like major highways that connect these points or anything like that.
I don't think we're looking at a long haul trucker
or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Okay, well, let's go ahead and start talking about them
case by case here. So Cross Space team, if you
want to take us through the first two and then
we'll have more of take the third one.

Speaker 3 (09:44):
Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
So on March sixth, twenty twenty five, the remains of
a woman were found near Norwalk, Connecticut, and she was
found by the Norwalk Police, scuba team and fire rescue team,
and authorities located clothing and personal items left on the
bank of the Norwalk River before eventually discovering her body.

(10:07):
And she is named Page Fannin. And I don't believe
there is any known cause of death on in her
case yet.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Okay, So she's been identified.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
Yes, Yeah, all right, can you can you? I love
that you got this map here. Can you zoom in
just a little bit further on that?

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
All right, So that's that's the Yeah, that's the Norwalk
River that's right there. Okay, pretty pretty significant river, pretty
significant river that runs through there.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
Page, I'm trying to get my get her name outdated here,
all right?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Page?

Speaker 2 (10:47):
And then what do you guys think about the items
being left at the water's edge?

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yeah, I don't know if that indicated she went for
a swim or something like that. Okay, could have been
something casual. I'm not really sure if that's a swimming
area or not. Didn't really strike me as that, but
I'm not sure. I don't know. I'm not sure that
there's anything suspicious necessarily about her death at this point.

Speaker 2 (11:19):
Right, right, And officially there is no suspicion that's being
mentioned by law enforcement on that, no cause of death
that's actually been released, and certainly no comments about it
being a homicide investigation.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Right. I do want to mention that the family and
friends of Page have a gofund me. They've exceeded their goal.
They've done a great job exceeding the twelve thousand dollars goal,
but more can always be given. And if you go
to GoFundMe, it's in loving memory of Page at Las Fanning,

(11:54):
So that's a Page pa IgE. Her middle name is
I've never seen this name before A L I E
H S. And the last name is F A N
N O N. So that's the GoFundMe if people want
to contribute to that. But that was the first one
that technically popped onto our radar, or technically popped onto

(12:18):
the social media speculation mill rumor mill gotcha?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Gotcha?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Can I jump in and ask a question? You had
mentioned that, And it seems like a situation where she
would have went swimming. What temperature is it that? I mean,
I don't see anybody swimming out there at that time
of year, Willingly.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
I mean even right now, I wouldn't see anyone swimming
in there. I hate to say it, but I think
the the clothing left there and her being in the
water seems very like taking your own life type stuff.
But by all indications reading about her on this go

(13:04):
fundme and the articles that were written, no one had
ever said unless I miss something, no one had ever
said that she was struggling with any sort of emotional issues.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not seeing any mention of that here.
All right, what's the next case?

Speaker 4 (13:23):
And yeah, So same day, March sixth, twenty twenty five,
there were unidentified remains located by a hunter in a
wooded area in Plymouth, Massachusetts. And this one had no
information on gender, age, or cause of death, so not
much to go on this one. Plymouth is quite a

(13:47):
waste from Norwalk. Yeah, so I would say no reason
to believe these two are connected other than the date
they were found.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
They're literally they're at the exact offepposite ends of this
whole collection. Yeah, and found on the same day. But
that being said, we don't know date of death on
a lot of these instances. We know the date of
the discovery, so it could, you know, potentially be that

(14:19):
someone had died weeks before. And something that we do
bump into with a couple of the cases is a
description of decomposition that's happened or the remains being so
decomposed that they're having trouble identifying what happened. So definitely
it's it's a big X factor in this outside of
I think three of the cases we have a date

(14:40):
of death. Two of them, we have a specific day.
One of them. We have kind of a range we
could figure out. But yeah, it makes them really really tough.
So this one in Plymouth found by a hunter. That's
about all we know. No other real details on that
found on March sixth, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Did we say that that's a skull.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
We can say that skull. Yeah, that one's a skull
that was found.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, and I know as I could have been there
for ages.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Right, Well, if tell us about Suzanne Warmser.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
So Suzanne's Warmser's case starts in Groton, Connecticut, not to
be confused with the other Grotten. On March nineteenth, police
responded to a call regarding a suspicious item near the
bus stop. And this is a long route eleven in
that area. And this was a black wielded suitcase and

(15:43):
it had a foul odor. So obviously you get a
suitcase with something that does not smell good inside you,
you might be nervous to open it. So police were called,
and sure enough they open it up and inside that
suitcase was the torso of a woman in a trash bag.
The body had been dismembered and dumped at that cemetery,

(16:07):
and they believe that the body had been there since
mid February. They released an important clue because they had
no idea, but one thing they felt was that this
victim had something called Turner syndrome, which is some kind
of chromosomal disorder that can cause physical characteristics like short stature,

(16:29):
broad chest, short white neck, and small chin. And the
identity of this body was later confirmed to be fifty
eight year old Suzanne Wormser and it turns out she
did have that Turner syndrome as they suspected. Now City
of Rotten police chiefs David Burton's name is believed that

(16:51):
she was killed in or near the cemetery where she
was founded. But it didn't take a long time to
get an arrest here because you know, six weeks after
her remains were found, her roommate, sixty eight year old
Donald Koffel, was charged with her murder and as well

(17:13):
as tampering with physical evidence and proper disbols of the body.
And I think police would have found him anyway, but
her sister had called in a tip after seeing a
press release about the body found. She hadn't heard from
Suzanne and quit. Sometimes she was worried and she knew
something was wrong, so you know, she got them to

(17:38):
check and they found this guy and it wasn't you know,
just her that was concerned. Neighbors of Suzanne's also brought
up Donald Koffle, you know, and the story with him
is he had been a neighbor before moving out of state,
but he returned to the area in early December twenty

(17:58):
twenty four. Suzanne allowed him to live with her because
he had no place to go, apparently, and by the
time police got around the questioning him and trying to
see if he was involved, he was in the hospital
with treatment being done for pancreatic cancer, so a very

(18:19):
serious situation. Not much time to to try and get
him to reveal facts if he had them, because he
was in you know, late stage. Now, the crime scene
inside Suzanne's home. Suzanne's home was pretty bad. There was
blood spatter on the walls and the furniture. A bloody

(18:40):
bat had been hidden behind a bookcase. There were clumps
of hair stuck to it. They found Suzanne's per srid
card and other belongings in there in there too, and
then you know, another person came forward to admit or
to give a tip that Kaufel had admitted that he

(19:04):
beat Suzanne to death with a baseball bat, and according
to him, the story he gave was that she had
stolen two hundred dollars worth of cocaine from him. To police,
are you know, interrogating him at his hospital, that I assume,
and he confessed to the murder. And you know, according
to him, he gave brew some details of how he

(19:28):
hit her in the head of the bat. And it's
pretty gruesome the details that he gave. But then this,
you know, pretty disturbing thing is that he lived in
that home with her dead body from those two weeks
before he decided to use a handsaw to dismember her remains,
and that salt was also recovered from her apartment. And

(19:50):
then from there he stuffed her torso into the suitcase
and distributed the rest of her body parts and the
two trash bags, and he used different dumpsters to get
rid of those body parts. And as far as I
can tell, the rest of her remains have not been located.
And Donald Koffl was being held on a bond of

(20:11):
one million dollars. His scheduled court date of June tenth,
but fate intervened and he died from that pancreatic cancer
on April twenty fifth. So, as far as we can tell,
this is a standalone case, not connected to any others.
Seems like it's a dispute between two people that sadly
ended in violence.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, and I believe the cemetery was only a matter
of like hundreds of feet from the apartment that they
were living at, right.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
It was very close, and I'm assuming because of his
advanced illness, he probably didn't have the strength to go
very far right right.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
So so far we've talked about four cases. Two of
them have been ruled homicide. But in this one we
actually have a solve. We have the person admit to it.
There's charges filed, he dies before he could face those charges,
so obviously that's not related. We've got two other cases
that have no cause of death that's been publicly released.
One of them potentially an accidental situation that happened with

(21:10):
Page or something else along the lines of self harm
is a possibility. And then of course the skull where
we just we don't know that the hunter found. All right,
let's go ahead and get to the next one, tim
or Lance.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
All right, So this one is about missing person Denise Leary.
So she had been missing from New Haven, Connecticut. She's
a mom. She went missing on September thirtieth of twenty
twenty four, and her body was found March twentieth, twenty
twenty five. You know, wooded area in kind of a

(21:51):
residential neighborhood, it seems like, so she went missing under
pretty suspicious circums dances. I have to say, we cover
missing people a lot on our show Missing, and this
seems like it's going down that path of a case
that a woman has never been found because her son

(22:18):
was asked by her to shut her phone location off
before she went missing, her son Joshua.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
She also was picked up by an unknown individual round
ten thirty pm, I guess somewhere around that September thirtieth,
twenty twenty four date. And she also vanished from her room,
her in her place of living, so it was locked

(22:48):
from the inside and she apparently went out the window
and I think climbed down and got outside.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Very strange for a fifty nine year old old woman
to do something like that, Like just what would what
would be the rea. I mean, I guess if you
wanted someone else that was living in the house to
not know that you had left. But I mean, yeah,
she's fifty nine, she's not sixteen. That's that's really strength.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yes, it is reported that she had uh schizophrenia as well. Okay, okay,
what level of that? Like, I'm not a doctor, right,
so I don't know how serious schizophrenia can be, but
I'm under the assumption she was taking medication for it.
And the instance where Tim referenced her son being told

(23:38):
by her to turn her location off on her phone,
she had this I don't want to call it a date,
but she was meeting with somebody on a night that
was close to when she disappeared. But she came back,
so she had she had gone out with this mystery person.
Before she did, she told her son turned the location
off on my phone. I'm thinking that's just somebody not

(24:01):
technically savvy enough to do it herself. And then she left.
And according to a couple of newspaper reports, the family
had said that they were not aware of who the
person was and they really didn't get a look at
the person who she left with. So those are the
mysterious circumstances that go into her disappearance, and we don't

(24:23):
know if those are completely separate from the discovery of
her body.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Right right, right, So her death has been has been
ruled undetermined at this point, there is no information, and
the police went as far as saying there's no indication
of criminality in the case, and it seems like essentially

(24:53):
they they put that out there because they found her
remains in an advanced state of decay, and so the
investigators at the scene could not determine her gender or
age even when she was found, So I have to
imagine she had been there for at least a couple
of months, if not closer to six months.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right right. So yeah, that's just it's an interesting phrasing
because you know, there's cases where I've worked with families
and the social information points to a very high probability
that something happened to their loved one, that someone did
something to them, but police will sometimes use that same

(25:35):
type of phrasing. Well, we don't have any indicators of
anything like that. So it's it's one of those things
I wish we could take comfort in hearing that and saying, well, hey,
look that means that there isn't a foul play element here,
But that's not what that phrasing is about. It's really
that they have not been able to detect any type
of foul play element that's happened with that particular case.

(25:57):
And admittedly, you know, I also cover a lot of
missing persons cases. Schizophrenia comes up relatively frequently in them.
There's a lot of very troubling side effects that people
deal with with that, including full blown hallucinations and sometimes
that can lead to self farm situations, but also accidental

(26:21):
situations or kind of unintended accidental situations because of this
version of reality that the person is dealing with. So, yeah, Lance,
you were going to say something.

Speaker 3 (26:33):
Yeah, I just wanted to point out the timeline there
of Denise's story where she had been missing since September
thirtieth of twenty twenty four and her body was discovered
on March twentieth of twenty twenty five. And Timid said
that he'd imagined that due to the fact that the
reports are saying her body was in an advanced state
of decay and they weren't able to recognize a gender

(26:56):
or you know, they weren't able to identify her or
recognize a gender or an a that her death must
have happened pretty soon after she was or right around
that time period that she was was declared a missing person,
right around that September thirty, twenty twenty four time period.
And it just makes me wonder and it makes me
hope that investigators are looking at or other incidents that

(27:18):
might have happened around that time period. Maybe there are
other missing people that were reported in August of twenty
twenty four or you know, October of twenty twenty four.
Is there any like micro cluster that's happening there that
we can look at. And I know morph is like
the Golden State Killer Expert, and I'm wanting like, is

(27:40):
that something that was implemented during an investigation back then
where they looking at missing people around the same period
of time.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
You know, I don't think they really looked at missing
people because you know, all the victims that they tied
to him or you know, thought were the same person,
were not taken well, they were sometimes taken out of
the house, but not like you know, they didn't disappear
and wind up in different locations a long time later.

(28:15):
But probably there were some people that said, hey, so
and so is missing. Maybe it's you know, has something
to do with you know, the Easteria rapist or the
Golden State killer that whatever he moniker he was at
the time, I mean, and the same thing. You can
go even to like the Zodiac case. You know, anything
that happened in the San Francisco Bay Area. People say,

(28:36):
what if it's Zodiac, And I mean, you know, there's
you know, hundreds of miles there with lots of criminals
that were operating back then, so I think it would
be natural for people to say, well, maybe it's the
Zodiac Killer, and you know, ninety nine point nine percent
of the time it probably didn't have anything to do
with the Zodiacular.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I think there's another important point to make here,
and it's something that Morrif actually brought up when we
first started talking about these cases, and even just a
couple of weeks ago here on the channel, I released
a whole episode that I titled Spring Solves because we've
come to know from you know, doing this type of
work year after year that when spring comes all of
a sudden, there's a lot of discoveries of bodies and

(29:17):
missing persons that happen. In this instance, it looks like
she was found by people that were clearing brush from
a wooded area behind a house. And we know that
we had another case where it was a hunter that
found a skull. So I do think that it was
a really good point more if that you had brought
up about you know, these spring discoveries are kind of

(29:38):
getting intertwined, because when you look at this list, it
does seem harrowing, like I've got this, you know, Excel
sheet I've put together and just look at all the
dates of discovery at least from the March once March sixth,
March sixth, March nineteenth, March twentieth, March twenty sixth, April ninth,
April twenty first, April twenty second, April twenty third, another

(29:59):
one April twenty fifth, April thirtieth. But I think that
is speaking to at least some of these are speaking
to that trend that it is time for these kind
of spring salves that also happen here.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, and I wonder what you know that terrain out there,
Tim and Lance probably know better than any of us,
But you know, is are these areas for the most
part that people wouldn't go to unless the weather was nice.
I mean, is it hard to get to some of
these areas where some of the stuff is happening.

Speaker 4 (30:35):
I don't know about hard to get to so much
as you just don't. You don't go for walks in
the winter in New England for the most part. And
you know, there's a lot of leaves that fall, and
if it's in a wooded area, people aren't really going
to clean up those leaves, so they conceal things. But
it's not like a huge cover, it's just like some leaves.

(30:57):
So it actually makes a whole lot of sense to
me that we see bodies being found in the springtime
when the weather gets a little warmer and people actually
do get outside and hit the trails.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
What was the snow like this year for you guys.
Was there snow that would have concealed it until it
melted away when the weather warmed up a little bit?

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Maybe? Maybe, but I don't see not Connecticut. I mean,
any snowfall that we had here didn't last very long.
We seemed to have a couple of you know, good
size like, you know, a few inches here and there,
but it was usually followed up by a few mile
days or some rain and.

Speaker 4 (31:33):
There's some ice, yeah, yeah, a lot of Yeah, we
had like ice, Like my yard was completely frozen for
like three weeks in like February. So right after that
is when things started started thawing and bodies started being found.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Did I just hear your accent try to break through there?
Did you say started?

Speaker 3 (31:53):
I hear that right, Yes, he did good here and yeah,
his whole yad just froz over the Yeah, it's dotted.
I think it's I think it's funny more if you
said terrain. And when you say terrain, I think of
like our buddy Jason Watts, who does these searches in

(32:13):
you know, the Texas like this area, areas in Texas
that have like cactie and rattlesnakes, rattlesnakes and wild boars
and and he's you know, organized a searches to go
look for bodies in there. And that that when you
when I hear terrain, like that's what I think of,
Like I think, you know, I gotta I gotta put

(32:34):
special gear on to go into this area. I don't
really think there's anything like that for any of these
bodies that have been found out here.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Like some of the areas are pretty thick, like the
area were more Murray went missing. Wasn't that an area
that's got a lot of different Oh for sure, you
got to navigate.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, but you're talking like you're at the base of
the White Mountains, like the the White Mountains National Forest
or I don't know if it's an actual national forest.
But it's like you're talking.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Like it's not far. It's a few miles from where
Morris car was found.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah, yeah, but it's very far from where these bodies
have been found.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Let's get to the next one. So the one after Denise.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
Okay, So on March twenty sixth, twenty twenty five, the
remains of a missing woman were located and the family
believes her death is suspicious, but is adamant that she
was not the victim of a serial killer. And this
family has spoken out on Facebook in their own loved
Ones group, but also on the New England serial killer

(33:44):
facebook pages. There are a few of those that exists
out there on Facebook, and there's a lot of information
similar to what we're talking about that gets shared. A
lot of articles, a lot of flyers of missing people
from New England gets shared, in those groups. They appeared
in those groups and pleaded with the folks of those groups,

(34:06):
do not include their loved one in this overarching story
of a serial killer in New England. They actually said
they believe they know who did it.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Oh wow, okay, all right, and then we get well,
I want to I want to give just a little
quick peace on that we recently had. Tim had mentioned
doctor Michael Arnfield who came on our show and that
episode is out on crawl Space. But he gave this example.
He gave this description that this particular story, this woman

(34:39):
who the family doesn't want mentioned because when her name
is brought into this conversation of the New England serial killer,
it creates a narrative that is not true. And Michael
Arnfield on the show and I Tim and I were
just blown away by this. He brings up this example
of like how people are digesting the media's coverage of

(35:03):
anything that's that's true crime, and he said, back in
the day, the literary world would give out the Egger
Award and when they realize that crime was a legit genre.
It was originally called fact crime, not true crime. Fact crime.
So he brought that up and then that led into

(35:26):
Michael asking the question whose truth does true crime convey?
And this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, if
people so desperately want there to be a serial killer,
they're going to include this woman's name, despite the family
saying like, we know who did it. This is not
this is not factual.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
So it not only social media, right, because I think
I ran into her name on a legit news source.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
As well, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, when this all started,
there was a handful of names, and she was always
like in the like the those four or five top
names that came up until you know, people actually had
to start making an effort. But I just thought that
was just an incredible, like reflective thing, right, like who's

(36:13):
truth does true crime convey?

Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, And it's always important to approach these cases ethically
when somebody puts that out there and requests, hey, please
don't talk about my you know family.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
We ran our New England on Criminology, our New England series,
you know, I think a month ago now, and it
was before we knew that they didn't want their name
out there, so we did use her name. But they
I think they were just at that moment putting it
out that they didn't want her name used. But in
the past, I mean, on the murder of my family,

(36:49):
I've actually taken episodes down after they were published because
the family said, you know, we're going to court and
we don't want this to sway something from you know,
erict or whatever. So you know, I've even taken that
step that's to remove a video or the audio.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
The only the only thing there, And I don't I
think most of the time this would not be the case,
but there is a particular time where and you guys know,
like when it comes to ethics, like i've I've I'm
always keeping an eye on it and trying to keep
myself in check. The only instance where I might decide

(37:25):
that something needs to stay up is if it looks
like a family member could be a suspect or a
person of interest and it's someone that's part of their
support team that's trying to get that information taken down,
which I have seen happen. It's super super rare, and
you know, in most cases, I would definitely err on

(37:45):
the side of caution. I don't think that's what we're
looking at in this case at all, but yeah, it is.
It's it's a tricky line. And it's to that same
point about what Lance was saying, like the who's whose
truth is it?

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Michael Michael Armfield who said that, Yeah, I was just
I was just parodying him.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yep, all right, so what do we First of all,
I didn't know that Connecticut had a place called Killing
Lee and how did that not wind up in a
fictional crime show yet? But killing Lee, Connecticut is where
we would find another body.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
Yes, yes, good point about the name of that town. Yeah,
And in this one there's no information on gender, age,
or cause of death either. So this one's very vague one.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
It is close to the last one. Seemingly they're both
kind of in the center of this whole conspiracy theory.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
I think one confusing thing too, is this case was
a different grotten. There's there's a couple, what's one in
the pretty good distance from each other though.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
Right, Yeah, I believe there's one in Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, And I think since they're both cases close to
those areas, each of those grounds, I think some of
them get crossed, you know, mixed up. Maybe they think
they're the same place, but there's definitely two different places.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah. Well, for a social media post that grouping is convenient.

Speaker 3 (39:24):
Connecticut State Police are really keeping tight lipped on this
because really like just doing searches. As we speak, there's
nothing really new. But one thing that is interesting is
that the body or sorry, the remains were discovered near
some railroad tracks, which I'm not sure, I'm not even
sure if those railroad tracks are active, but that's where

(39:45):
the body the remains of the body were found.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
And then we have another body that is found in
the water close to tide water landing. Not much reported
on this one at all, just literally that there was
body pulled from the water on I think it was
April twenty first, unknown sex, no information, no cause of
death publicly released, obviously, no information where we can determine

(40:15):
the date of death. And it was literally just that
a boter spotted the body, called out the police, and
they removed the body from the water. And then that brings
us to the story of Meghan Meredith, who knows the
most about this one.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
Well, we've been we've been talking about her death a
little bit, so we can we can tackle it. Yeah,
So on April twenty second, twenty twenty five, forty five
year old Meghan Meredith's body was found near a bike
path in Springfield, Massachusetts, and this death is being investigated

(40:55):
as a homicide. It is officially a homicide at this point.
There were a couple of odd things about this. It's
it's been determined to be a homicide, but Galooney, the
DA Anthony Galooney, said that there's no threat to the public.

(41:19):
So I'm a little confused about that. She was also
unresponsive when she was found by police, actually discovered by police,
and she only died after they found her. And in
no way am I trying to say that the police
are are to be suspected in this case. You know,
she was unresponsive when she was found, but it is

(41:43):
a little strange. It almost seems seems like some of
these facts got misreported. But if they're not, I'm just
a little confused of the order of operations in this one.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, and this is one of the few that we
can determine the date of death because obviously they found
her and she was unresponsive, but she was still alive,
so we know that April twenty second is when she
did die. Was officially ruled a homicide, but they haven't
released a cause of death or any real details right.
You haven't bumped into any details about what what her
injuries were or anything, correct. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, it's frustrating when you don't have even those details
when it's so fresh. That's the problem with doing sometimes
these cases that are breaking sort of you don't have
all the information and I'm curious, I'm trying to see
on the map, can you expand that a little bit, John,
to think that map more visible to get a sense
of where that's at.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah. Sure, bring up the satellite.

Speaker 4 (42:42):
View right on the Connecticut River. The bike path overlooks
the Connecticut River.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
And one thing, if they're saying, you know, there's been
times where they don't know who did it, and they'll say,
you know, they don't want to get the public in
a star so they're like, oh, there's no risk. And
normally if you say there's no resk to the public,
you know, how do you know that if you don't
know who did it, And maybe they do know who

(43:09):
did it and they're just trying to build a case
against that person.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yeah, I'd hope so too. That end, I think them
not releasing the cause of death is probably a tactic
as well, so they can have some information that they
keep private and if anybody comes forward, they can know
stuff that wasn't you know, details that weren't put into
the press.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
All right, let's keep it rolling. Awesome.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
I have a question for you, just a quick opinion
question on this one. Yeah, it just occurred to me
right now. So she's discovered she's unresponsive, she passes later on.
Do you think that was a tactic on police's end too,
to say that maybe whoever did this might think that
before she was declared deceased, maybe she gave the or

(44:00):
the identity of the person. So maybe this is like
a design to make someone nervous.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
I mean, if I was going to make a play
like that, I wouldn't say that she was unresponsive. Right,
that's a great point. I mean, unless unless they were
trying to justify in that person's head, because if they
had thought that she had expired and they had witnessed it,
then saying unresponsive would give them a little kernel of
doubt about like, oh, maybe you know, I actually didn't

(44:27):
kill her. But I think it would be scarier to
them if, like, if I was going to make a
play like that, I'd say, oh, we were able to
revive her, but unfortunately she died at the hospital shortly after,
you know, something something along those lines, but it's yeah,
it's it's a good question.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Or really freak them out by saying she was able
to give us some information before.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
Yeah, seriously, I mean you might as well say that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Yeah, they're going to do it all away with it. Yeah,
all right. So now we're so basically, so far we
have had three of these case is where it was
actually ruled homicide. But then we get to this next one.
You want to take this one last?

Speaker 4 (45:09):
I believe that's four if we're if we're counting Joanne Gorelli.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Okay, And then the other case, the unnamed victim that
is seemingly confirmed a homicide as well, the one where
we're redacting the name effectively. So okay, gotcha, all right?
And this next one certainly is lance. You want to
tell us about Andrew and Jonathan?

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Oh sure, yes. On April twenty third, Andrew Gumpel, forty
one years old, and forty two year old Jonathan Thompson.
They were beaten and stabbed to death. They were found
behind a Walmart in Salem, Massachusetts. There are a couple
of reports saying neural Walmart or in the woods behind

(45:54):
a Walmart, but either way, it was a local Walmart
in Salem, Massachusetts. They were buried in I don't know
how deep they were buried. I don't know. It feels
like kind of a haphazard way to throw dirt on
the body so that they're not immediately discovered. But we
do have somebody in custody, thirty year old J. Blodgett.
He's facing two counts of murder. And the prosecutor, James Gubatose,

(46:21):
and I apologize if I'm mispronouncing his name, was quoted
as saying we eventually found two individuals with apparent blunt
force trauma and stab wounds that were deceased. They were
hidden in the woods by various items and dirt. And
the suspect, J. Blodgett, is a unhoused man who has
resided in and about the area of Salem, Massachusetts, and

(46:46):
by all accounts, he's going to be charged with this.
But that's where we're at here.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Now.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
We don't know much about what evidence they have against him.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Is that correct against Blodgett? No?

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Yeah, And I always get scared when I hear the
local maybe the creepy guy someone will refer to somebody
like that, the scary guy, that guy that walks around town.
Stay away from him. You know, they sort of get
that reputation. And sometimes it might be they're homeless or
they're on you know, they're dependent on something. But a

(47:21):
lot of times are convenient scapegoats. And I hope the
police have something solid on him, you know, to have
him in custody.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
The only other thing that might that might help with
that understanding is from what I get he did. I
think he broke into like a storage area and he
was trying to sleep there and someone came across him,
and he was so freaked out he offered them money,
and he offered them two thousand dollars. So it just

(47:50):
makes me wonder. And the article was written saying that
that it assumed that he had panhandled for the two
thousand dollars, but knowing that he could be, you know,
a murderer of two. Could robbery have been part of
the motive. These bodies were found behind a walmart. You know,
it just it makes me think about that possibility that

(48:11):
he was, you know, he killed these guys and took
their cash. Basically.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
Now, what's interesting is how does one guy overcome two people, Well,
we don't know, or they could fight back or well.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
I don't know if if these guys were together. I
don't know if these guys even knew each other. Do
you guys have any insight on that.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
Yeah, they were from out of state. I have some
notes here, let me just see. Yeah, so the two
victims were forty one year old Andrew Grumple from Arizona
and forty two year old Jonathan Thompson from Oregon. So
maybe they weren't with each other when they wound up there,

(48:50):
but it is odd that they're from far out west.
So you know, it's not clear at least from what
I had at the time, that they you know, had,
you know, a connection to each other. But from being
out west, I've found that interesting.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I couldn't find any solid details on that.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
I do think that's interesting. But Salem is even outside
of October, Salem is a pretty significant tourist attraction. So
there's a number of different represented areas in the country
and the world that visit Salem again, even outside of October,
to revisit that storage unit that we brought up that
he was trying to or that he was discovered in

(49:37):
that was also close to the walmart, and that's kind
of where everyone saw him. He was well known by
a lot of people in that area to be the
guy who is not the guy without a home who
has made you know, his life on the street of
the streets of Salem. And everyone seemed to be very
shocked about it. They there's articles written where people were

(50:00):
quoted by saying like they were shocked that he was
always a very nice individual when you know, whenever they
encountered him. But you know, just it goes to show you,
like you just don't know the how close people are
as far as being on the brink, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
It'll be interesting to see what comes out what they
do have against him, and you know, if it goes
to try or whatever, what comes out the you know,
I just remember when I was a kid, having some
you know, sketchy people around town that maybe were homeless
or you know, they looked a little creepy, and there
were all these rumors about, you know, theyn't go near

(50:41):
that person, blah blah blah. And you know, looking back now,
I realized there were just people that were down on
their luck or they had issues, no no signs of
them harming anybody. So, you know, it always makes me
think of that kind of stuff when when somebody like
this is uh, you know, picked up for the game.
He maybe you know, responsible, maybe they have something rock

(51:03):
solid against him that they know he's the killer. But
you know, it'll be interesting to see what comes out.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Tim, you want to take us to the next one.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
So.

Speaker 4 (51:13):
On April twenty fifth, Bristol County District Attorney Thomas Quinn
confirmed that Samuel Stovell, fifty one, of Taunton, Massachusetts, was
found in Mill River by folks walking by, and apparently
there were obvious signs of decomposition. Quinn's office said that
death has not been deemed suspicious, but that the investigation

(51:36):
remains open. Quinn said that Stovell was unhoused and was
known to Taunton police.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Right looking into this gentleman. His obituary reads very complimentary.
He went through a lot of difficulties in his life.
Apparently he had found a new lease on life through
religion and was dedicating himself to you know, doing God's work.

(52:07):
And his family and friends quote remember, and his family
and friends remembered him for his quote remarkable resilience in
overcoming adversity.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
So, on April thirtieth, twenty twenty five, the remains of
thirty nine year old Stephen Myers were found in a
construction site, also in Taunton, Massachusetts, and the district attorney
said that Myers died as a result of a gunshot wound.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Now that's pretty strange. What do you guys think about
the phrasing on that one, because my first gut instinct
is like, oh, that's a homicide, but not necessarily right.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Definitely kind of gives you the image, or at least
gives me the mental image of like a organized crime
hit or something like that. But this could very well
not be suspicious at all.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, there's only one other little hint that I was
able to find on this one in terms of trying
to make that determination, and that was it took place
next to a technical school or like a high school,
and it was noted that the school did not go
into lockdown, nothing happened around their operations, which I would

(53:20):
think that if it was identified to have been a
homicide that would have been instant. I'm surprised it didn't happen,
just based off the discovery of the body just kind
of instantly anyways, But it's kind of hard to tell,
so we don't have a determination on that one. We
have interestingly a cause of death, but we don't know

(53:41):
if this is actually a homicide or if this is
a self harm situation.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
Right, But authorities did say that there is no connection
between Meyers and the school, so it's not like he
worked there or anything like that. So seems like, yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
I would just say, I mean, I think even if
you have anything identified as a gunman within, I would
say a few blocks of a school, that school's probably
going on lockdown.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Oh for sure, Yeah, definitely, yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah, all right, Lance, you want to take this next one?

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Sure, yeah, I'd love to take this next one because
it's one that came up while looking into these two
other gentlemen that were from Taunton, Massachusetts. We mentioned Myers
and who's Stovell? Yeah, we mentioned Myers and Stoval, And

(54:37):
in this one article that I came across, they mentioned
seventy two year old Glastonbury, Connecticut resident Mary Colecento. And
she was not on the list that we had originally
been looking at. And I'm curious why her name doesn't

(54:59):
come up more often, but she was reported missing on
Sunday morning, April I'm sorry. On Sunday morning, October eighth,
in twenty twenty three, she was reported missing.

Speaker 2 (55:08):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah, yeah. She was last seen wearing dark pants and
a light colored top, and the and the circumstances of
the disappearance of her disappearance are unclear and at the time,
in an article that was written right around her disappearance,
authorities had been taking it very seriously. They were very
urgent in it, and there were many groups involved. There

(55:31):
was the Glastonbury Police Department Patrol and Investigations Division, the
Connecticut State Police canine teams, the Capital Region Emergency Services Team,
and Hartford, Connecticut dive teams and they had all been
looking into her disappearance and they coordinated really well during
those early days. But apparently they hadn't found anything. And

(55:54):
then there was a missing person report that was filed
on six AM. That's what launched the search effort, and
it was focused on the Glassonbury boat House, and the
boat house is a scenic area adjacent to the Connecticut River,

(56:14):
and that was searched thoroughly. A boater had spotted Colisanto,
parking her car at the Glassonbury boat House at approximately
twelve thirty in the morning, and I believe that was
reported at nine am on Sunday, the day she was
reported missing. And this is according to the Department of

(56:35):
Justice National Missing and Unidentified Person System, this is according
to NamUs. And she was last seen walking to the
Connecticut River. This is again according to NamUs. Her vehicle
was discovered that same morning, several hours later in the
parking lot, but her body was yet to be located.

(56:56):
So they had dive teams, they had cane ie search teams,
and it wasn't until that April thirtieth of twenty twenty
five where her body had been discovered in the Connecticut River. Wow,
so sorry to make that complicated, but I didn't realize
how far back this story went. So she's declared missing

(57:22):
in twenty twenty three, she's seen parking at this boat
house at twelve thirty in the morning. She's that's reported
at nine am, and almost immediately a search is conducted,
and we have representatives from NamUs telling us what went
into that search and giving details on the timeline. And

(57:45):
nothing happened then until fast forward to now where her
body is now part of this conversation, So again this
goes back to twenty twenty three.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Yeah, and we are if there's anything that is kind
of making this case in outlier for me, the the
age trend that we're seeing is really forties to fifties
with a couple of thirties sprinkled in there. And Mary
was seventy two years old, so at bit a little

(58:15):
bit of an outlier there. Again, we don't know what
the ruling is and even cause of death. I guess
we're kind of assuming it's drowning just because of where
she was found, but we don't know that for a
fact as well, So a lot of questions left on that.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
A lot of questions. I think the reason why I'm
bringing this one up is because her name wasn't included
in the other It wasn't included in the conversation, right,
And is it because of her age? Is it because
of the time that she disappeared? Like did it just
not fit the narrative.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Right? Right?

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Do we have Margaret Hammersley on the list?

Speaker 4 (58:56):
No?

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Su Okay, because this was a case that I thought
had some similarities, and I don't have a lot of
information about it. But her body in you know that
age range that you just mentioned. She was seventy three
years old. Her body was found on the twenty first
of March near found in Forge Pond near Groton, Massachusetts.

(59:21):
She had been reported missing one day earlier from Nashville,
New Hampshire. And that's about all that I could find
on that. I don't know cause of death or anything
like that, and I haven't seen any updates on that.
But you know, when you mentioned that age, the water aspect,

(59:42):
the grotten you know coming up. Hers was a case
that I had seen in some places as possibly being
connected to these other cases.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
It's not everywhere, and that is that the Connecticut, Groton, Connecticut.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
It's the it's Massachusets.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Yeah, Massachusetts. Okay, all right, we'll put her on the
list too, Timm. You want to get the next one?

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
This is really kind of a wild story here. So
on May seven, twenty twenty five, the murders remains of
thirty five year old Naatia Mendez were found at the
Evergreen Cemetery in New Haven, Connecticut. Strange that that's the
second group of remains found at a cemetery. But Edwin

(01:00:34):
A Royo Roman of New Haven was actually charged with
Mendes's murder as well as tampering with evidence. And Edwin
Arroyo Roman not only confessed to Mendez's murder, but he
actually confessed to three murders in Puerto Rico. So interesting
story here. There's really not anything else that I can

(01:00:56):
find on him as far as these confessions that he
made about murders in Puerto Rico. I would hope that
authorities in Connecticut have called Puerto Rico and tried to
find out if there's any legitimacy to that confession. But
we could have an actual serial killer here, but probably

(01:01:20):
are potentially not a murderer from the mainland here.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Right right, right, Well, let's bring up the sheet and
take a look. So that is all the cases that
we've seen, in one way or another kind of get
attached to this theory. We do have a number of
them ruled as homicides, but some of these that have solves.
So in Nash's case, I'm going to go ahead and

(01:01:50):
just undo this highlight because we know we've got someone
that's accepting responsibility there on Andrew and Jonathan. We know
that there are charges filed there on Suzan, which it's
almost another weird thing that those two bodies were found
in cemeteries. And those are two of the cases that

(01:02:10):
are actually solved and they're different people, but we can
go ahead and clear that one. So really for the
ones where we don't know what has happened yet, we
have the one with the redacted name that we've discussed
and it seems like the family is fairly confident that
they have an understanding of what's going on with that case.

Speaker 4 (01:02:30):
Yeah, so they call it suspicious. I was just looking
into it as we were going. So it's been ruled suspicious,
not officially a homicide, but apparently there was potentially some
bags found with her, like a trash bag type of situation,
but not officially a homicide.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Okay, but families being extremely clear, not tied to this
theory at all, so we could pull that one out
as well. So that brings us down to really we
have two ruled homicides, and both of them in Springfield,
and that's the Megan Meredith case and the Joe Angerelli case.
Do you guys think that there's any possibility that those
could be connected?

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
I for sure do. There's not much information on either one,
and they were found very close to each other, like
this is a matter of like a couple of miles,
I think, Yeah, so yeah, I mean, it is interesting
that we're talking about a serial killer in all these cases,
but if you whittle it down, there may actually be

(01:03:32):
two serial killers here, one confessed. So I don't know,
we're just maybe and then these Springfield murders. Definitely definitely
want to know more about this, and there's not much
else out there about these murders right now?

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Yeah, John, can you just go in a little bit
on that area that you're looking at right there? This
is a Springfield one right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Yeah, mile and a half, well less than two miles
between these two, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
Right, And it's right at the forest park like region
area right there. I was just wonder how many how
much surveillance is in there, how many police officers or
rangers go through there, just kind of patrolling. Also, are
their cameras at certain intersections there, like on the bike

(01:04:20):
path or something like that. And if we're trying to
come to terms with the fact that these might be
connected and this might be the work of someone who
is acting as a serial killer, is this an area
that is safe for them to operate, you know, kind
of on the outskirts of a park within the park
limited you know, CCTV or anything like that. You know

(01:04:46):
this this might be that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Yeah, that's an interesting thought because it is it is.
It is this one that's kind of on the edge
of the park and then right into a neighborhood area
and and on Meredith, Yeah, I mean it was it
was a bikeway, right, it was the bike trail that
she used.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
The yeah, right near the Basketball Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
That, yeah, that could be a trend spot in there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:14):
And and I live pretty close to Springfield. I lived
like a half an hour from these these spots that
we're talking about. So I've actually been to Forest Park
several times.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
There.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
It's a very large park. There's actually a zoo in
the park. They do something called bright Nights in the
holiday season where it's like a driving path where it's
a lot of lights lit up. A lot of kids
in that park generally. Actually, I think we took our
engagement photos in that park a few years ago, so

(01:05:45):
it's huge. Definitely some water in the park as well.
I don't know about cameras, I will say, I'm not
I'm not too keen on that, but I do know
that there are like ranger stations in the park as well.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Okay, okay, Well, something I'm starting to wonder because I've
been seeing a trend with a lot of cases that
I cover lately where law enforcement is seemingly playing things
extremely close to the vest. Are we getting to a
point where you guys think that law enforcement is doing
this because of the effect that social media, true crime

(01:06:24):
media is having on them and their cases. Is this
the new norm at this point that we're going to
have almost twenty cases we talked about here, and more
than half of them we can't even tell you if
it's a natural death, accidental death, or homicide.

Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
Yeah, I'll go ahead more.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
I was just gonna say, I wonder if it's indicative
of the policing in that area, if that region they
choose to do things a different way than say someone
down here in Florida or in Texas or out west.
I wonder if any that might be a play.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Yeah, that's good, it's a good question. I think at
this point in our social media society, I think these
cases that break it's just now that law enforcement or
representatives from law enforcement will look at them and try

(01:07:22):
to figure out a way where they can make the
voice of the people through social media help them or
become a hindrance, like what details are we releasing that's
going to help because we well, we're going to release something,
but we got to make sure, like, Okay, how is
this going to be spun by the public on social media?

(01:07:43):
I don't think they expected this though. This is brand
new as far as like a cluster of bodies over
a short period of time that are seemingly unrelated. Some
of them solved, some of them not even you know,
determined to be any particular sex or age or anything,
but they're just getting put into this category. And personally,

(01:08:05):
I think like a lot of these law enforcement agencies
are scrambling. And again to bring up Michael Armfield, he
was adamant that somebody from an agency and he kind
of said, like, listen, it has to be the FBI.
He kind of he didn't say that specifically, but it
was more like, it needs to be somebody in a
position of authority that's not connected to a particular town.

(01:08:28):
And and if we have to say, like someone from
the FBI has to come out definitively say something that's
what's going to stop the public from speculating like this.
But at this point it's already become.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
Nothing's ever going to stop the public from special.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Yeah and no, right, even the FBI comes out. I
understand what what Michael Armfield was saying, and I get
the power of the FBI. But the FBI comes out,
and the next headline is going to be like FBI
addresses possible serial killer in New England. That's not going
to do anything.

Speaker 2 (01:08:58):
To stop price. So the New York Post is waiting
for that headline, I can tell you right now. Yah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
Yeah, So yeah, I think I think it's the unfortunate
new norm that the law enforcement agencies in this country
have to navigate around because it's not going to go away.
And actually, you brought up the Taylor Swift thing at
the beginning of the episode, and Tim and I were
talking about this, and I in an episode that we
just recorded, if there was some sort of like media

(01:09:28):
god that was looking upon this case these stories and said, boy,
it's starting to fizzle out. We need some sort of
public figure. We need that name in there somehow to
just completely accelerate this. Who could it be? It's Taylor
swift like, this is law enforcement looking. I can imagine

(01:09:50):
law enforcement looking at this and being like, how in
the world is one of them? How in the world
is the most famous person in the world now attached
to this?

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Right, Well, but that might not be an accident. I
think you're making a really really good point. And the
truth of the leg bone that was found there is
it wasn't found in her backyard. It was found two
hundred yards away.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
It's it's she's got a big house of two hundred
yards that's only two football fields, John, Right, Well, you're
fourteen seconds.

Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
I mean there are also other mansions in that area, probably,
That's what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Well, but not as famous as her too, right, not
as famous as her. I mean I think I think
you could do it with many different cases. Like I
think if you found remains out in Malibu somewhere, you
can be like, oh my god, just found next to
Leonardo DiCaprio's home. I think you could do the same thing.
And I think because of this story, I think we
are going to see more of that. I do just

(01:10:51):
want to touch on this because this is news that
just came out today. They have already done an identification,
so human remains found near Taylor Swift's home maybe missing local.
They've been identified as those of sixty one year old
Kevin Poissant, a local man who had been missing since March.
The Rhode Island Medical Examiner's Office carry it out the

(01:11:12):
identification and reported no signs of foul play. Police have
firmly rejected the serial killer narrative. Westerly Police Department said
the facts point to individual circumstances and in mister Poissant's case,
no criminal activity is suspected, and they had to put
it back down here in big letters for everyone more.

(01:11:35):
No connection to Taylor Swift.

Speaker 4 (01:11:38):
Yeah, they put that at the bottom though.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
Yes, right, the Swift de part reels him in at
the top and then they disclose that it's not related
in any way to her at the bottom of the area.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
Little more info on him. He was known in the area,
He had no history of violence or disputes. He had
struggled with health issues, and he may have become disoriented
before his disappearance, So that's sounding possibly an accident in
that situation.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
I did want to run a case by you guys
that's not talked about a lot, and just get your
take on it and maybe you could plot on a
map and see how close it really is. But it
was a case that reminded me of Paige Fannin. And
this is a guy named Eric Ween of Mansfield, Massachusetts.
He on April tenth, twenty twenty five, his car was

(01:12:29):
found and this was found on Ocean Road in South Kingstown,
Rhode Island. Now, I don't know how that far is,
how far that is from Mansfield, Massachusetts, where he lived,
but he was reported missing. There's been no sign of him,
and I think that car is pretty close to water,

(01:12:52):
if I remember correctly, And I think that the similarities
were a little bit like Page Fannin's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Case.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
So I'm waiting for something to come out more. But
I'm curious if you could tell me how close it
actually is in proximity to the other cases we've been
talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
It's it's right in the middle.

Speaker 4 (01:13:13):
Yeah, definitely in the range I think seekonk came up. Yeah,
this is not far from there, not far from Plymouth,
Patucket I believe came up as well. So yeah, it's
definitely in that range.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
When did this happen.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
Morph This was so April tenth, his car was found
and I don't have the date for me when he
went missing. I think it was I.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Was sorted missing on April eighteenth.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
Okay, yeah, he was reported missing after his car was found,
so I'm not sure about that gap in between the time.

Speaker 4 (01:13:57):
Looks like his car was towed, it was illegal parked
and toad so that might have been part of the
delay there in ruling him a missing person.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
Yeah, it was just interesting that there's no sign of
him out there. And you know, I thought of the
Fanning case when I first read.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
This one, and he hasn't been found.

Speaker 1 (01:14:20):
No no updates that I could find on on his case.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
Well, along the lines, I think it's important to ask
why why do people group stuff in this way? Like
I had previously mentioned, you know, Smiley Face Killer, the pusher,
the anti vax doctors. I even hit a trend a
couple of years ago where all of a sudden, it
was minority teens from DC that we're all going missing.

(01:14:51):
Why does the public do this?

Speaker 4 (01:14:53):
Tim Well, I think we're human, John, I think I
think humans seek patterns, and when bodies are found in
this sort of in a small enough area in a
short enough period of time, I think people start wondering,

(01:15:15):
and yeah, I do think it. It also is a
bit of the confluence of social media and just information
moving faster than ever, especially unofficial information kind of just
getting passed around and shared without any official word. So yeah,
I think it's a several things here.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Lance.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Yeah, I'm going to just jump on that. I agree
with the being human part and wanting to find patterns
and connections and making you know, weaving a thread, you know,
weaving threads, like making them all connect, and that's just
the way the brain works, right, Like we love puzzles
for the most part. You know, people like to have
answers to things, and they don't like having things that

(01:16:01):
are open ended. So that I do agree with, But
I wanted to add on there's the classic morbid curiosity
of these things. People love scary movies, They love horror movies.
They love the thrill of the hunt. They love the
idea of a bad guy out there and the idea

(01:16:22):
of catching the bad guy and telling that story and
telling the story to you know, their families and friends
when they're so far removed from it, when it's not
something that is happening directly to you know them, to
their family or anything like that, the morbid curiosity, and hey,
I I will be one of the first to say, like,

(01:16:43):
I have that morbid curiosity, and I will slow down
if there's a crash on the other side of the highway.
And I don't want this to, you know, be something
that I It's not anything like I'm super proud of,
but it's just a natural thing. I think most people
have that and it goes with this too. And I've
told the quick anecdote about this. My barber asked me

(01:17:06):
when I got my haircut if we were covering this,
and he was like, He's like, why do I want
there to be a serial killer right now? I think
that just is something that a lot of people kind
of wrestle with, but hey, it it is a story,
and people want a conclusion to a story.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
I did look into a little research around this, and
I found one interesting point that really stuck out to me,
and that was desire for order and chaos that basically,
by doing this, it turns it into something that's more
manageable for us to process and believe in that, Oh,

(01:17:44):
it's just one crazy person that's responsible for all of
these terrible things that are going on. Like that is
easier for us to digest than these are all individual instances.
There's a bunch of crazy people out there. There's people
that might have done this to themselves. Yeah, it's more
frightening to think that humanity is as wild as it

(01:18:06):
actually is. Moreph what do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Yeah, I think you hit the nail right in the
head there. And I think also in this day of
crowd sleuthing and crowd solving, which I think is a
good thing overall, I think you can get on a
forum and talk with one hundred people and these two
or three people say, well, we've got these cases, and
two or three other ones say well what about this

(01:18:28):
case here, and all of a sudden they start getting
connected when you know, you know, the closest connection between
them is that it's the New England region and really
nothing more.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
Than that, right right. Yeah. It reminds me of a
certain author of a missing series that picks a particular
locale and and just talks about the crazy trend in
that locale because everyone goes missing there. It's like, well,
when you go looking at that locale for missing cases,
you're going to see that trend. And that's kind of
that's why right off the top of this. As soon

(01:19:01):
as I showed the map, I'm like, keep in mind,
this is showing these cases that have been lumped together
in this way.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
Well, guys, I think go ahead. I have one more
quick thing. I mean, you just mentioned that author and
it made me think of this. When you google New
England serial Killer and you go to Google images, you
don't even have to scroll very long before you find
I love her Nancy Grace, I do. I think she
is a powerhouse in her industry. I respect her a lot.

(01:19:29):
But there's a there's a thumbnail of her and it
shows like the New England area and a map, and
she's looking all concerned and it says terror in New England,
right like.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
The media is driving a lot of it is in
New England. Yeah, and I have one more thing too,
And I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet
that if you look right now at any part of
the country Florida, Texas, California, you might be able to
find a similar group of cluster of deaths that you
could put together the same way we're doing here, that

(01:20:04):
just haven't been talked about, and you know, maybe one
day they will be all connected on a message board someplace.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
Yeah, well, don't put that information out there, Morph, because
now some guy is gonna want attention on Facebook, and
you just gave him the formula. Like that's the only way.
It's all you have to do is put together a
grouping like this, because I've seen more.

Speaker 3 (01:20:23):
Gave him the formula.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Morph, gave him the formula, Tim anything, any last comments?

Speaker 4 (01:20:30):
No, I'm just kind of sick of Morph mentioned in
Florida when it's like fifty threes right now.

Speaker 1 (01:20:35):
But I'm wearing a sweatshirt. It's cold inside my studio here,
so I am cold.

Speaker 4 (01:20:39):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
He does throw it around a lot. We know you're
in Florida, Moe, we get it.

Speaker 4 (01:20:46):
Congratulations, Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I'm freezing in Minnesota between all kind.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
The weather and the terror I feel up here.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
I really appreciate you guys landing us today and helping
out with this episode of brain Scratch. Where can people
find your work? Let's start with more.

Speaker 1 (01:21:07):
Head over to my website abjac Entertainment dot com and
you can find all of my different podcast under one platform.
I also host Criminology. That's my longest well known podcast,
and you can find me on you my hand on
x RY I do a lot of posting. Is at
true crime Guy.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
All right and Crawlspace. Since you guys share a brain,
I'll let you both answer at the same time. Where
can people find where?

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
And he met he didn't mean a brain, that's debatable.

Speaker 4 (01:21:36):
Yeah, we do the Missing podcast and Crawlspace podcast. You
can find them both on your favorite podcast or but
you can also check us out at crawlspace, dashmedia dot
com on our website, and we're out there on social
media as well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
And our OnlyFans is also at crawl space.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
I did not That is not real, is it?

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):
No? No? Okay? Second, yeah, mentioned chaos and that's just
where my brain went.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
Yeah, No, appreciate it. Well, thank you guys for joining
me here today and thank you for hanging out with us.
I hope it gave you some more insights, some more
to think about about this theory. And like I said before,
if you want to try to get to a better
level of understanding with it, the best thing you can
do is dive into the research for yourself. Remain I

(01:22:25):
don't want to say skeptical, critical, keep a critical mindset
on when you're looking at this kind of thing. And yes,
keep in mind that the public is more and more
wired for trying to grab your attention with every year
that passes, with social media being that much more normal
and people being born into a world where that's the norm.

(01:22:47):
This is a never ending ramp that we're on when
it comes to people seeking attention. If they could pull
together a bunch of cases and turn it into a
post and that gets a click from you, that's that's
what we're fighting against in terms of trying to share
information and just remind people to be more respectful with
these cases and to be helpful with these cases as well.

(01:23:10):
You know, why does liking some posts necessarily Is that
really being helpful to the case or not. That's the
question you should be asking about the media that you're
looking at. Are the content creators that you're watching are
they interfacing with these families? Are they making donations to
the organizations that help these families directly to the families themselves.
Ask those questions and I think you'll wind up in

(01:23:32):
a bit of a better place.