My Suspect Mac Part 1 of 2 'Meet Mac'

Episode 37 My Suspect Mac Part 1 of 2 'Meet Mac'

In part 1 of this 2 part episode, co-host Mike Morford introduces you to his pet suspect 'Mac'; William McDuff Andrew.

Mike discusses how he developed Mac as a POI, and why he was confident enough to go on record saying that he believes with 100% certainty that Mac was the Zodiac Killer. In Part 2 of this episode, you'll hear from Criminologist Dr. Lee Mellor, and Geoprofiler, Douglas MacGregor to see how Mac stacks up against their profiles of the Zodiac.

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Visit Mike Morford's Zodiac site at:
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And Richard Grinell's Zodiac site at:
https://www.zodiacciphers.com/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Have you heard all the stories onthe news lately about cold cases being solved
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Or do you just love a goodstory with a satisfying ending. If
you answered guest to any of thesequestions, then I have the podcast for
you. DNA I D is theonly true crime podcast dedicated exclusively to cold

(00:25):
cases solved by forensic genealogy. Onmy show, you'll get all the behind
the scenes details on how these caseswere brought to closure and how the victims
finally got justice. Listen to dnaI D Season three starting January sixteenth,
twenty twenty three, wherever you getyour podcasts. You're listening to Zodiac Speaking,
brought to you by Abject Entertainment.Be sure to check out some of

(00:48):
the other great true crime podcasts fromthis network, including The Murder in My
Family, Missing Persons, dna ID, Beyond Bizarre True Crime, and
See If the Crime. All ofthese podcasts are available for you to binge
on right now wherever you listen topodcasts subscribe where you're listening to this podcast
so you don't miss an episode.This is a Zodiac Speaking. Hey everyone,

(01:38):
welcome back to a new episode ofZodiac Speaking. This is going to
be a different episode than you're usedto hearing. I'm flying solo. This
is Mike Morford by myself, noRich. We are here to talk about
something that people have been asking meabout and I've been putting off for a
while and finally said, you knowwhat, let me take a little bit

(02:00):
of time here and get this done. It's an episode about my suspect,
William mac Andrew, who I simplycall Mac, Why I came to suspect
him, you know, what Ithink of the clues and where things stand
now, all this time later,so it should be interesting. At the

(02:23):
towards the end of this episode,you're going to hear from two experts who
sort of helped me, you know, fill in some of the blanks as
far as Mac as a suspect andwhere they see with their expertise, where
they see Mac fitting in possibly.And one of the experts is doctor Lee
Miller, who's a criminologist who studiesthe minds of serial killers and has written

(02:46):
several books. He came up witha profile of his Zodiac suspect, you
know, not any suspect in particular, just who he thinks Zodiac was based
on his expertise in his knowledge andhis history of researching these kinds of killers.

(03:07):
And he gives, you know,a blind profile that I later compared
to my suspect, and we sortof fill in the blanks and say,
well what matches, what doesn't Doesany of Max's stuff fit in with his
profile? And it was done independentlyof me, nothing to do with me.
He did his own profile, youknow, before I even went public

(03:29):
with mac. So he'll be onto discuss that. And then also we
have a geoprofiler which is Douglas McGregor, and he's done some extensive work on
profile in cases, and in particularhe has a profile in the Zodiac case
where he thinks Zodiac lived and hesort of goes through the things of where

(03:57):
is things fall short when it comesto profiling geoprofiling, What things can be
learned from geoprofiling. It's a toolthat police do use frequently to help established
patterns and see where offenders may reside. That kind of thing so we will

(04:17):
talk to Doug and see what hethinks, you know, based on his
geoprofile, how that fits Mac.So, you know, without further ado,
let's just jump right in here.Again, this is going to be
a lot live recording, no editing, roth, so a little bit different
than you're used to hearing on thisshow. But it's sort of a little

(04:40):
bit different process when it's just myselfhere, not with Rich and we're not
going through a you know, asingle case or single episode with a script
and going through a point by point. So the main thing I'm going to
read from here is on Tom Boyd'sZodia Killer dot com there's a thread called

(05:03):
mcgruber m acgu r U b eR and then it says real name mcdapphin
Andrew. That is the thread onTom's site that you can go through,
and on page one, the veryfirst post is pinned is sort of an
outline of the entire case against Mac, and I'll sort of run through that

(05:26):
checklist for this episode. I'm notgoing to get into all kinds of different
things. I'm just gonna go downthat checklist basically, but you know,
it's a quick background. For somereason, somehow the Mac thread just really
exploded and it resulted in in themost popular and most posted in thread on

(05:48):
Zodiac killer dot COM's history. AndI think, you know, last time
I checked anyway, it had youknow, somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty
seven thousand posts, so by far, it was the most popular topic ever

(06:09):
on that website. Not all ofit was good, not all of those
positive. There's a lot of trollingand a lot of infighting, and a
lot of you know, people justyou pushing back on Mac as a suspect.
And I'm open to criticism, I'mopen to debate. I don't like
trolling just for the sake of trolling. You know, sometimes other people who

(06:31):
have no interest in this suspect,but because the suspect thread that they're interested
in discussing is totally dead, theycome to this thread and and sort of
push back on him just for thesake of having some conversation and you know,
sort of pooh pooing the suspect.As far as you know, real

(06:53):
criticism and things that don't add up. I think that's fair game. But
controlling for the sake of trolling amounta fan of and there's a lot of
that in this thread, so you'llhave to read through a lot of crappy
posts to get through the bulk ofthe twenty seven thousand posts, but there's
a lot of good stuff they're doing, a lot of good ideas and legitimate

(07:15):
questions and legitimate criticisms, but definitelyworth a look. So again, starting
with post number one in the threadcalled mcgruber real name William mcdef andrew is
where I'm going to read from forthis timeline. So just a little bit
of a background on how I cameto look at this suspect and have find

(07:41):
this suspect. For a long time, I was convinced, you know,
I had this very very strong opinionthat the Zodiac was someone who resided in
Riverside, California, was connected tothe Sherry Joe Bates, you know,
even if he didn't kill her innineteen sixty seven, I was convinced that

(08:01):
he started out writing letters to her, to the police and newspapers there on
Riverside about that case. And thenI thought they later moved on to m
moved to the Balao area and thenstarted writing letters there as the Zodiac.
And this was mainly based on them O, the wording, the writing,

(08:24):
it was just so similar and sucha similar pattern. I said,
you know these this has to beconnected. This has to be Zodiac most
likely. And I had spent alot of time looking at Ross Sullivan,
who was an interesting suspect for anumber of reasons. He was the closest
I'd ever seen to this, youknow, the infamous SFPD sketch of Zodiac,

(08:46):
and he had that riverside connection inthe library where Schary Joe Bates was
a murder. But I always stoppedshort of saying, yes, Ross Sullivan
was the Zodiac, because you know, there were some physical differences. He
was, you know, six foottwo. But again I'm open to the
hype being a little bit off.So that wasn't a big deal breaker.

(09:07):
But the biggest deal breaker for mewas that he could not be placed in
Valet or San Francisco. You know, there were some rumors he was in
San Francisco, but no confirmation.There was never any connection to him for
Valleo. You know, there wassome some doubt as to whether he could
drive. You know, he wassuffering suffering from mental illness, and you

(09:30):
know, in nineteen sixty eight,was arrested for pinning somebody in a phone
booth in Santa Cruz. Um forall of that, it's as interesting as
Ross was as a suspect that couldjust never say um he was the Zodiac
with you know, and say thatwith emphasis and feel like I was right
about it. Um. So he'sheld back on saying that um. And

(09:52):
then I started thinking. You know, I talked to a police officer,
retired detective friend of mine, andyou know, we started going through the
case, and he said, well, he said, you know, if
I was working this case with you, what I would suggest is we discount
the Riverside you know case. Wedon't know if that was Zodiac. We

(10:16):
know that Lake Cremin Road and everythingafter that in Valeo and San Francisco and
NAP, but we know that Zodiac. So you know, he recommended it
I focus on the known canonical Zodiaccrimes and not go down the endless speculation
and theories that Riverside may be connected. So I said, okay, let

(10:39):
me take a fresh start, letme forget Riverside exists at all. And
first let me see how could youknow, how could this not be Zodiac
and Riverside? And I said thatthat writing what Zodiac wrote in his materials
after nineteen sixty nine and what thewriter in Riverside wrote back in nineteen sixty

(11:05):
seven nineteen sixty six was so muchalike that I thought that it had to
be him. But then, youknow, Rich and I did an episode
back in I forget which episode itwas now, but we discussed a very
specific magazine article. One of thosedime store detective magazines was pulp magazines that

(11:26):
ran that was very popular, andin it it discussed the Sherry Joe Bates
case, and it spelled out wordfor word, even with the misspellings,
what the author in the Bates casewrote, the words that they chose.

(11:48):
So, and that was published ina magazine prior to the Zodiac using those
same words and phrases in nineteen sixtynine and after. So it dawned on
me that this may ab, youknow, a case of Zodiac reading about
this case in the in that magazineand then using some of the words and
phrases for himself. And I knewthat all of a sudden, hey,

(12:11):
this maybe he never was in Riverside, So this this might be a you
know, a red herring. I'vebeen chasing in Riverside. Um. But
then, you know, we hadthe issue of the writing. You know,
obviously Sherwood Morral thought that this writingin Riverside was also Zodiac. So

(12:33):
I was like, well, howdo I get around that. Well,
lo, and behold one of theBates Case letters. The author was exposed
as being a teenage kid that wasdoing a prank, and you know he
didn't you know, the killer apparentlydidn't send those letters in Riverside at least,

(12:54):
you know, the Bates Head toDie letters. So that sort of
left the whole of Okay, maybeSurewood Moral was wrong about this writing in
Riverside. Maybe there you know,besides the similarities in the in the language,
in the writing, there was youknow, no concrete physical evidence that
Zodiac was in Riverside. So thatmade me feel a little bit better about

(13:18):
going away from Riverside and looking elsewhereand looking in Valeo, which is where
we know that Zodiac was in nineteensixty eight. So what I did was
I said, okay, I wantto examine everybody I can find in Valeo
who could potentially be a suspect.And I originally had an idea that you

(13:41):
know, one thing that jumped outto me was at Blue Rock Springs,
the killer of Darlene Ferrin left fora couple of minutes and then returned a
little bit later and then started shootingon that second time he came back.
My thing was perhaps that he haddrove home real quick to get a gun

(14:03):
and then came back, and thenthat could explain the few minutes. So
I started looking at homes in thatarea, saying, well, if he
came back and you know, fiveten minutes something like that, where could
he have lived at in that proximityto where he could have gone home,
got a gone, came back andstarted shooting. And I found out that

(14:24):
there were very few homes within thatdriving distance. So I started thinking that
theory was probably not going to begood because back then it just wasn't developed.
There wasn't a lot of homes there. So I started went to a
backup theory, and that was youknow, the phone call after Blue Rock

(14:50):
Springs, that phone booth, thatwas where the call came from that Nancy
Sliver took from Zodiac. You know, I started thinking there something off there
because that was a you know,a few mile drive from the crime scene.
Yet The call came what forty minuteslater, so it should not have
taken that long to drive to thatphone booth, you know. And if

(15:11):
you're the killer that just shot twopeople and thought you murdered two people,
are you really going to hang aroundthen drive around town aimlessly, you know,
one o'clock in the morning, aftermidnight, and then just choose this
phone booth randomly, or wouldn't youget out of town and make your escape
and then maybe call from San Franciscoor some town on your way out.

(15:35):
You know. So here's this callcoming forty minutes later when it should have
come ten minutes later if Zodiac drovestraight there. So I had this missing
thirty minutes, and I started thinking, well, what could you do in
that thirty minutes if you were Zodiac? You know? Well, I started
thinking, well, you may notwant to drive that car just in case

(15:56):
somebody saw him, So you know, he might want to drive home and
stash that car, change out ofhis clothes because there could have been blood
spatter, obviously, hide the gun. You're gonna be caught, you know.
After midnight, you're driving around,you get pulled over and there's a
gun all of a sudden, you'reconnected to this murderer that just happened,
I start So I started thinking,he may want to get rid of all

(16:18):
that stuff, clean himself, takea shower, change his clothes, hide
his gun, park his car.But then that left me with the possibility
of Okay, so is he walkingback to that phone booth. And if
he's walking back to that phone booth, he's got to live pretty close to
it. And this phone booth wason the intersection of Springs and Tullmny,

(16:38):
and I started thinking, okay,so what if this guy lives close by
and knowing Zodiac, you know,he probably got his kicks out of watching
the police respond to this phone boothand when they inevitably trace the phone call.
So I started thinking, this guycould live right there. And you

(17:00):
know, it's it's pretty well establishedthat a lot of killers start out close
to home, a lot of serialoffenders, and then they work their way
further and further out. So Ialways felt that Zodiac was in Valeo and
probably close to this phone move.So I set about trying to do,

(17:21):
you know, geo profiling everybody Icould, data collecting, data mining everyone
there I could in that phone bookin nineteen sixty nine, looking specifically in
that area for anyone that lives andsay, you know a short walking distance,
you know, maybe less than aquarter mile, who could be out

(17:42):
there that could walk to this phonebut make that call and return to the
cover of home without being spotted,without being stopped. Well, the first
thing I noticed was going through thatphone book, and you can go house
by house, address by address,and determine who lives in that home,
and then you can narrow it downif you want to put enough work like

(18:03):
I did, like I spent endlesshours doing this, you can determine the
homeowner, their family members, andthen you can narrow it down to okay,
who was white, who was amale, who was between the ages
of twenty and fifty. You canreally start to whittle that list down,
which is what I did. Iwent, you know, quarter mile in

(18:25):
every direction of that phone both essentiallyand pinpointed every home and determined who was
in each home. And I gotI'd say it a really good success rate,
maybe ninety percent or so, andwas able to determine who was in
every house. And again knowing thatZodiac was white, he was a male,
he was sometime you know, agesopen to debate. But between twenty

(18:49):
and fifty I was able to puta list together, a very short list
in that area. Most of thelocations right around that phone booth were businesses
that no one lived in. They'restrictly businesses, but it just so happened
to suspect mac Andrew lived in hisfamily's business in an apartment in the back

(19:14):
of it, and it was threehundred and eighty seven feet from that phone
booth. So when I identified him, you know, I said, okay,
he's just another, you know,another person on this list. And
the list was very short by now, because again I've narrowed it down to
only white males between the ages oftwenty and fifty, so I could count

(19:36):
on one hand of most of theamount of people there were. And then
I obviously looked to see if anyonehad criminal records and that kind of thing.
So I found a picture of WilliamAndrew. He was born in He
was born on February fourteenth, nineteenforty five, so he was twenty four
years old in nineteen sixty nine whenI found his picture was in the nineteen

(19:57):
sixty three yearbook for his high schoolthat he attended in Valeo, and the
first thought was, Okay, here'sthis heavy set kid with glasses and a
crew cup, Zodiac asked. Butthen again, there were a lot of
people that were you know, hadthat general look because you were back either
back then you were hippie or youwere this you know, square that you

(20:19):
know, someone that straight and narrowand conservative, and they'd have that look.
And then with the glasses that itfit like a million people. I
wasn't really excited by the fact thathe looked a little bit like the Zodiac.
I'd seen a lot of people thatfit that description. So you know,
the next thing I said is,okay, I've got to, you

(20:41):
know, see if there's anything else. I put him up a little notch
because he did look like him andhe was heavy set. I said,
well, let me look into hima little bit more. And I was
able to find out that he hadgotten a ticket, and the ticket listed
his height and weight of five footeight and you know, two hundred pounds,

(21:02):
and that was the description of Zodiacpretty much is in that range.
Most of the people that saw Zodiacestimated him to be that you know that
range. Now he mac was alittle bit younger than most estimates. But
you know, let's not forget alot of people, for whatever reason on

(21:25):
this message board wanted to rule outMike Mijoe and just say he's not a
reliable witness. You can't use anythinghe said. But you know, Mike
did say that his attacker was twentysix to thirty years old, two hundred
pounds, chubby, with a largeround face, and that described Mac Andrew
William Andrew. So you know,I said, let me set up to

(21:48):
get this guy's handwriting. And Iobtained a copy of his Social Security application
and I said, I'm hoping whenI get it his handwriting, it's just
gonna look nothing like Zodiacs, andthen I'll just be able to move him
way down the list. But theopposite is true. When I got the

(22:11):
writing, I said, oh mygod, this writing is very close.
It's got the crazy slant like zodiachas. Some of the letters jumped right
out the w's and I'm not lookingat it right now as I'm speaking,
but I just I'm going by memory, and I said, wow, I
said, here's that crazy slant writing, and I see letters that are popping

(22:33):
out, and you know, rightaway, I said I can't rull him
out, and now I've got togo the opposite direction. He looks,
you know, pretty interesting now becauseall of a sudden, he's close to
that phone booth three hundred and sevenfeet away. He's got writing that looks
a lot like zodiacs, and hefits the physical description. So you know,
instead of rulling him out, Iwas going the opposite direction now.

(22:56):
So I enlisted the help of acouple of people to help me do some
real church and that's when things gotreally interesting because I was able to put
a timeline together this guy's life,and you know, basically it mirrors Zodiax
timeline very closely. And and whatI mean by that is, you know,

(23:22):
there were a lot of major lifeevents in William Andrew's life that line
up with stops and starts in Zodiaxpatterns. And that was something you know,
I learned after talking some of thedetectives on the Golden State Killer case.
You know, they they felt thatstops and starts in the Golden State
Killers activity would be tied to thingsthat happen in his life, you know,

(23:48):
the births of children, marriages,new jobs, those kinds of things
and sure enough when they caught theGolden State Killer. It turns out that
he had a murder in nineteen eightyone and he didn't kill anyone again until
nineteen eighty six, when he killedhis last victim. And in that case,
the nineteen eighty one and nineteen eightysix murders coincide with the birth of

(24:11):
his two daughters. So that isa real thing that there are major life
events are called triggers, that causedsomeone that's a killer, that's a serial
predator to act on those things.And that act could be anything, as
you know, from writing a letterto committing a crime. But what I
found with William Andrew is that inthe spring of nineteen seventy one, he

(24:37):
took a job with the state,and that is the time that Zodiac stopped
writing. Zodiac didn't write another letteruntil nineteen seventy four. Well, what
happened to Mac In nineteen seventy fourHe met his future wife, got engaged,
and was married that year, allaround the time that the Zodiac started

(25:02):
writing again, and Mac up marriedin the fall of nineteen seventy four,
and there was never another confirmed theletter will say confirmed for now never another
confirmed letter from Zodiac after that,so I can tie Max's job career,
meeting his wife, getting married.All of that ties in perfectly to zodiax

(25:26):
stops and starts in his letter writingcampaign from nineteen seventy one the nineteen seventy
four. So this isn't a caseof me trying to shove a square you
know, Pagan a round hole.That stuff just fits and all of that
was just compelling. It was justone thing after another that was suddenly interesting.
But then again we found out oneof the most interesting things that you

(25:55):
know, Mac had a dying relativecousin in Deer Lodge, Montana, which
is what it is believed to havebeen mentioned that town by Zodiac at Lake
Barrissa, which is huge because itwasn't in any of the California newspapers at
the time. There would be noway of Zodiac using that name, just

(26:17):
grasping it because he saw it ina news report or something and using it
at Lake Barrissa for some kind ofbullshit story to to come Brian and Cecilia
down. So I think he knewabout that in some way, knew about
that town and the fact that hisMac had a relative that was dying in

(26:38):
that town at that exact moment wasjust huge. But the real interesting thing
came when, you know, someonepointed out to me that on Max's website
and his wife's website that they usedto run together after max death twenty fourteen,

(27:02):
she made a post about a bookthat she found in his belongings called
The Code Workers. This was abook that many people think of Zodiac used
to to cipher create ciphers. Andshe wrote on this that this was the

(27:23):
second copy that she had at hehad had. She said that he had
another one previously, but he likedit so much that when he lost that
when he wanted the book again.So obviously this book meant something to him,
and you know the fact he didn'twant to get rid of it when
his wife had asked him to.It had some kind of value. So
now we had somebody living three hundredand eighty seven feet from the phone booth

(27:47):
that had an interest in ciphers andcodes, that had writing that looked much
like zodiacs, to who fit thephysical description overall of Zodiac. And when
I threw all that there, Isaid, in my mind, there's no
way this isn't the Zodiac and Iyou know, I said publicly I believe

(28:07):
this is the Zodiac, and fromthere, you know, I'm still on
record as saying that I'm convinced thatthis is Zodiac. You know, I
since turned all the stuff into SFPD, and you know, I've I've had
some interaction with them. I don'twant to go into detail about what it
was, but essentially now we're justin a waiting game, and the waiting

(28:33):
game is, you know, therewas some interesting stuff that came from our
interaction, but the I think thewaiting game is that they want to rather
than chase down every lead on everysuspect that somebody sends them, I think
they just want to solve this caseusing genetic genealogy to pinpoint who the person
is. Rather than chase a thousanddifferent suspects, They'd rather just have the

(28:56):
genealogy tell them who Zodiac was andpin join him instead of chasing down a
bunch of different suspects. That's mytake anyhow. But again, here we
are every year later, and thecase is officially not solved, despite all
these claims by the code breakers andother people that have said the case is
solved. It's it's not. It'sofficially unsolved, but I still believe with

(29:19):
one certainty when this case is solved, if it's solved, hopefully it's solved,
that the name said by police asthe Zodiac will be William McDuff Andrew.
And I'm sticking to that now.Again, I'm human, I could
be wrong, but I'm I'm convincedone hundred percent that I am not,
and in time will hopefully you knowtell. So I set about trying to

(29:53):
get writing of his get more stuff, films, blanks, anything I could
to fill in the background about Mac'slife and especially the timeline around the Zodiac
crimes. And what I found wasthat, you know, from nineteen sixty

(30:15):
eight to nineteen seventy one is mostlyblank, which is when Zodiac was most
active. In nineteen sixty eight.Mac attended college at Chico State in June
nineteen sixty eight, and he washad some roommates at a house there off

(30:41):
campus, and you know, Iwas able to track down three or four
of those roommates, and they all, you know again, none of them.
I asked some pointed questions. Ididn't say, do you think your
your roommate was the Zodiac? Isort of held that back until the very
end. Not one of them saidI think Mac was dangerous, violent,

(31:07):
that kind of thing. Nobody pointedthat out. Nobody pointed out Mac,
you know, singing with Macado oranything like that. I don't want to
paint a picture like that, butI did get from all of them that
Mac was a bit odd that hedid not have success dating at all.

(31:27):
Where most of them had fiances,were getting married, We're starting in their
life, he wasn't. He wasalone. And in nineteen sixty eight,
when college ended for them for themand they all went on to careers and
marriages and things like that, Macwas left to himself. And one of

(31:48):
his roommates made it a point tosay, I was you know that he
always felt guilty sort of leaving Macto fend for himself, and you know
it felt guilty over that, anddidn't really know he did. They all
sort of lost track of him.Now over the years, they would pop
up at these random weddings and theywould get together for wedding parties, that

(32:10):
kind of thing, But nobody reallyknow what was going on with Max's day
to day life. So it's beenhard filling on the blanks. But So
here we are, all this timelater, I'm still trying to get answers.
I'm still trying to hear from peoplethat knew him, and you know,
that's where we're at. But I'mgoing to go through this timeline that's

(32:31):
posted again on Tom's site and itemfor item here. So Mac grew up
in Valao, living in an apartmentconnected to his father's real estate business business
from three hundred and eighty seven feetaway from Springton to Almy. So that's
a fact. In June sixty eighth, Mack graduated from Chico State College.

(32:52):
Chico State not really close to Valo. I forget how many miles away.
Almost it was two hundred miles away. Um, not around the corner,
that's for sure. So later Max'swife, I had reached out to her
respectfully. I didn't want to pressureher. I didn't want to call her,

(33:13):
you know her say to her directly, I think your husband was a
serial killer. But I reached outto her and said I was doing some
research on him and I had appreciatedshe contacted me. She chose not to
contact me, which is her prerogative, her right, you know, if

(33:35):
you know, I just wanted herto reach out so I could open up
a dialogue with her and talk toher, and I respected the fact she
didn't, and I had never contactedher again. Now, later on it
slipped out that I was looking atMac and we were discussing him on this
forum, and someone just being atroll that they they were tweeted his wife

(33:59):
that we were discussed thing Mac asZodiac on the forum. So eventually she
joined the forum, and she actuallycorresponded with us and answered questions and was
pretty open. You know, forthe most part, I think about Mac,
and she answered some questions when shecould and filled in some blanks.

(34:24):
And one of the things she toldus was that Mac went to college in
nineteen sixty eight in South Dakota.Well, I following that lead, I
tracked down Max yearbook photo in SouthDakota in nineteen sixty eight, and that
photo looked very much like Zodiac's descriptionof heavy, you know, heavy attacker.

(34:52):
Mac was five ft eight again twohundred pounds. He was chubby,
he had a large face that fit. And this was an interesting photo because
the nineteen sixty three photo I hadof Mac, he had a crew cut
sort of look. We see itas you know, in San Francisco at
the Stein scene at Lake Barriessa,you know, the month before the Stein

(35:15):
murder, Brian saw what he thoughtwas greasy brown hair poking down through the
eye slits in the mask. Andthis photo from nineteen sixty eight of Mac
had that kind of hair that youcould see if his hair got messy,
if it got sweaty, it wouldhang down and poked through a mask.

(35:37):
So I've seen Mac sort of withthe SFPD look of the crew cut and
what he may have looked like,you know, with sweaty hair that Brian
hart Now saw at Lake Baressa,and he sort of fits both of those
molds. So you know, againgoing back through the details, we don't

(35:59):
know what happened Lake Herman Road,but we do know what happened at Blue
Rock Springs, and that's where MikeMijoe describes Zodiac as five foot eight one
ninety five pounds, chubby with alarge round face, twenty six to thirty
years old, no glasses. Soat that time Mac was twenty four years

(36:19):
old, five fight two hundred pounds, chubby with a large round face,
and he didn't always wear glasses.We've seen photos with and without glasses,
so he fit Mike Mijoe's description.But again, for some reason, everybody
that sort of tries to shut macdown says, you're not allowed to believe
this witness. But they only wantyou to believe the SF witnesses because they

(36:45):
place Zodiac as being older. Sowe have to listen to them. But
Mijo is shut down as a witness. He's discounted, which is just preposterous.
You're supposed to from an investigative standpoint, you take all of the accounts
into consideration. You don't just pickand choose which witnesses you're going to discount
which one you're not. So againwe have the early fifth nineteen sixte hunding

(37:12):
phone call from the phone booth threeand eighty seven feets from Max's house,
and when the police responded there hecould have been watching them right through the
window of getting his kicks. Andone thing that was always troublesome was that
Zodiac in his letter mentioned the manthat saw me was a black man.

(37:34):
He saw me in my brown car. Why would I always felt that was
that Zodia was trying to sell thatHe's trying to sell the fact that he
was there in a brown car thatsomebody saw him. Why would he volunteer
that? So I always thought hewas definitely lying about that, and then
I you know, it fed rightinto my theory that he wasn't there in

(37:54):
a car at all. He's tryingto send police in a different direction.
I thought he was there on fulland that's because he had walked there from
three hundred and eighty seven feet away. So, you know, then we
have September twenty first, nineteen sixtynine, in Deer Lodge. Max's cousin

(38:16):
is in Dear Lodge being treated bya doctor. She's extremely ill, she's
probably going to die. And thenyou know, I'm the twenty fifth.
She's examined again and she's got somethingcalled bronco pneumonia in Dear Lodge. So

(38:37):
you can sort of put two togetherand say, is it possible that Max's
parents talk to relatives and in DearLodge and say say, hey, you
know, um so and says notdoing so well, She's not going to
make it, you know, blahblah blah. And in that conversation,
do his parents talk to Mack aboutit and say, hey, remember your

(38:58):
cousin so and so she's dying inDeer Lodge. Well on the twenty fifth,
his cousin and Dear Lodge takes aturn for the worse. On the
twenty seventh, two days later,Zodiac at Lake Barriessa during conversation mentioned seas
an escape prisoner from Deer Lodge,Montana. So again the timing, it's

(39:20):
just hard to explain. October thirteenth, his cousin dies in Dear Lodge,
Montana. So we have some thingsagain his wife, Max's wife tried to
help fill in some lengths. Shesaid that in nineteen seventy she thought that
he was living with his parents exclusivelyin Valeo, and this would have been

(39:43):
three hundred eighty seven feet from thephone booth. However, we see a
nineteen seventy address in Chico for mackby himself. So again, if it's
we have to assume that he wasat least using an address there, and
at least when the area was cannabisand someone filled out information to be put
in the phone book that earlier.To that, you know he was at

(40:05):
least using an addresser whether he wasliving there or not. But his wife,
based on her recollection, thought hewas living with his parents in Valo.
But we also have to remember shedid not meet him until nineteen seventy
four, so anything that his wifehas said is secondhand information. She was
not there, she does not knowfirsthand. So in June nineteen seventy Richard

(40:34):
Radotich was gunned down in San Francisconear six forty three Waller Street. A
week later, Zodiac wrote a letterhinting that he killed Raditich well. In
October nineteen seventy one, and againthis is going by phone books, a
mac Andrew is listed in San Franciscoat five fifty one Dubacci Avenue, yero

(41:00):
point two miles from the Radati shooting. And there's only one mac Andrew that
I could find anywhere listed on ancestrydot com. And they were the one
in Valleo, which we know wasMac, the one in Chico, which
we assume was Mac, and thisone in San Francisco, which again is

(41:21):
important because if now we can placehim there in San Francisco, the letters
were getting mailed on weekdays in SanFrancisco in the Zodiac case, and now
he's very close to this Radati shooting. So even if he even if he
didn't do the shooting, it couldbe on his mind to send a letter
talking about it. So then wehave March nineteen seventy one, Zodiac mailed

(41:49):
his last letter from US three years. Spring of nineteen seventy one, Mac
takes a job with a state ofCalifornia. We're not sure what position he
had, but by the end ofhis thirty year career he was a prison
sergeant and he also instructed guards onshooting, so he definitely has some gun
knowledge. There's a little bit ofa miss print here that in nineteen seventy

(42:16):
one, Mac's future wife moves withher family from another state to Valeo.
I don't remember if that's accurate.I know, whatever the case, she
did not meet Mac until nineteen seventyfour, so I just wanted to clarify
that. By nineteen seventy three,Mac was listed as living at his parents'
new home in Balleo, still withinfive hundred feet of their previous home in

(42:40):
that general area, but now they'vemoved. So January nineteen seventy four Zodiac
Rates' first letter in three years.This is around the time that Mac has
now met his wife. They startdating. Mac is engaged by June of
nineteen seventy four. In July nineteenseventy four, Zodiac mount his last asked

(43:00):
confirmed letter. October nineteen seventy four, Mac gets married and he moves to
Vacaville, and he lives three hundredfeet from a couple who had received a
letter in nineteen sixty nine and whilethey were living in Balayo from someone claiming
to be the Zodiac. And thisis the infamous Oakland A's baseball tickets that

(43:22):
were sent to this couple by someoneclaiming to be Zodiac. Coincidentally or not,
he wound up living next to themthree hundred feet away in Vacaville when
they moved to Vacaville, so prettyinteresting. This one next piece of information

(43:43):
is also interesting because you know,the nineteen seventy eight letters from Zodiac someone
claiming to be Zodiac are widely dismissedacross the board as fakes from experts.
But you know, in more recentyears to December nineteen ninety, Eureka card
has come into the public eye anda lot of discussion on this whether this

(44:07):
could actually be the Royal Zodiac.This is important because Eureka is two hundred
miles from Valao. It's just nowhereclose to the Zodiac action, so to
speak. But Mac purchased property inthe New York area in the nineteen eighties.

(44:29):
That's two hundred miles from Zodiac's homebase of Valo. Yet here we
have a possible Zodiac letter and herewe have Mac popping up in that in
that same town, two hundred milesaway. Again, this is just one
of the things that sort of connectsdots. It just keeps on popping up.
In this case, Mac died intwenty fourteen. And again now it

(44:57):
goes into the description of Zodiac orMax guilt box, you know, written
on the side of David Khan's CodeCodebreaker's book, and Max widow mentioned that
Mac had originally read the book innineteen eighties, in nineteen eighties as far
as she knows, and lost hisoriginal copy, and she's according to her,

(45:20):
she liked the book so much heasked her to get another copy,
and which was one was found inthe box, so he kept it.
Now, again, just some oddpieces of information here that don't really fit
in. Max's friends would call himdriving or having access to what two people

(45:42):
called a Volvo or Volvo L carin the late sixties. One of the
friends thought it was tan, theother one thought it was brown. Or
excuse me, one of them thoughtit was tan or brown, the other
one thought it was blue. Again, nothing conclusive there. And again just
recounting what friends said, they saidthat they thought Mac was odd and compared

(46:05):
to most people, but they felthe was harmless. They said he did
not date or have relationships when theyknew him prior to the end of college,
and you know, most of themdidn't socialize with him until after nineteen
seventy. After college, they didn'tassociate with him. One of them found

(46:27):
out he had become a prison guardand they were shocked and they felt that
he was too timid to do thatkind of job. And again none of
Max's friends ever recalled him the interestin the Mecado, the most Dangerous Game,
etc. But they did this.Friends did say that he did read
these true crime detective magazines, Sothe very same magazine that Zodiac could have

(46:53):
gleaned that Sherry Joe bates information outof in her case, Mac was a
reader of those magazines. So againthat is it is what it is.
Mac was heavily involved in freemasonry inthe nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. So

(47:15):
that's a lot of it in anutshell, you know, the crucial bits
of information are the three hundred andeighty seven feet proximity to the phone booth,
his overall description fitting Zodiac's overall description. Again, Mike Mijo stating that

(47:35):
his attacker was twenty six to thirtyyears old in San Francisco, those witnesses
said they thought Zodiac was thirty fiveto forty five years old. Now again,
I also want to point out MikeMichel was shot from a couple feet
away. Zodiac was right outside hiscard or shooting into the car. He
was seated down, and he hada light shining in But important he did

(47:59):
see Zodiac before the light was inhis eyes. So people seem to want
to dismiss that. We also haveto count the fact that the San Francisco
witnesses saw Zodiac from fifty feet awayat night while they were elevated in an
upstairs room. So you know,if you're going to dismiss Mike Mijo's ability

(48:22):
to accurately detail what they saw whathe saw, then you've sort of got
to be fair and do that withthe other witnesses in San Francisco. But
in reality, what you need todo is you need to consider what all
of the witnesses are telling you.You know, you know, if if
one is saying, you know,he was heavy, he was stocky,
and then the other one saying that, then there's a good chance that they're

(48:45):
both right. If one saying thatthey saw glasses and the other says that
they don't have glasses, you know, we have to consider that as well.
So I think you have to takeall the things in the conservation for
all of these witnesses and not justpick and choose which one you're going to
choose. But height wise, weightwise, physical description wise, he fits

(49:07):
the bill. Large round face wassomething Mike Midou was very specific about,
and Mike and Mac has a largeround face. There's just no getting around
that. We know Mac had aninterest in ciphers and codes, which you
know, people that try to bedismiss of them all lots of people had

(49:28):
interests in ciphers or codes. Well, as far as I know, on
this message board, there weren't manysuspects that had an interest in ciphers and
codes that could be verified. Macwas one of those people that had such
an interest in it that he hadnot one, but two copies of the
same book, So you know,hard to dismiss that. And getting one

(49:49):
back back to one thing about Mac'sage again, you know that the witness
descriptions, whether it's Mike Mijoe,whether it's the SFPD kids, the age
ranges all over the place, fromtwenty six to thirty to thirty five to
forty five. But we also can'tdismiss the fact that both Brian Hartnell and

(50:13):
Offers for Slade, who took thecall from Zodiac after leaue Berry USA,
said it sounded like the person theywere talking to was in his twenties.
So again, is a voice descriptionas good as a you know, the
viewing someone in appearance wise now,But at the same time, you can

(50:35):
get a good sense if you're talkingto someone if they're younger or older or
whatever. And both both of theseear witnesses thought that the person they were
talking to a Zodiac was in histwenties. So there's nothing that physically rules
Mac out in this instance. Somepeople try to say, well, he's
got big ears that protrude well.In his nineteen sixty three photo they do

(51:01):
look like they protrude, and inhis nineteen sixty eight photo they don't look
like they protruth that much. Soand again we're talking about the people that
made that SFPD sketch. We're notlooking from two to three feet away in
daylight at the suspect. They werelooking from the suspect at fifty feet away
at night. So there's bound tobe some little thing that's off. I

(51:24):
love how these people say that.You know, this is a perfect likeness,
like Zodiac posed for this picture withperfect lighting, when in reality it
was fifty feet away at night.So there's bound to be something that could
be off. Could his ears bea little bit off? Absolutely, But
overall Mac has the physical traits,the physical appearance, the height, the

(51:46):
weight to build a large round face. Just about everything fits. And then
you have his handwriting looking very similar. You have his interesting codes, you
have his proximity to the the phonebooth, you have his timeline lining up
with Zodiac stops and starts in activity. Again, not me trying to make

(52:09):
it that way. It is whatit is. It just happens to line
up, It just happens to bethat a possible Zodiac letter came from Eureka,
California, two hundred miles away fromBalao, and it just so happens
that Mac owned property there. Again, it is what it is. I'm
not trying to just draw straws andand you know, point to things that

(52:32):
that may be clues. Those arefacts. You know, if if I
search a property record and find Macpurchase property there, and we also have
a Eureka card possibly mail from Zodiacand there's two or just facts, could
they be coincidenced as sure? Butagain, when you have all these other
things that start to line up ontop of each other, just stacked on

(52:55):
top of each other, it's hardto ignore. And for all of that,
which is that's why I still comethe conclusion that I'm convinced Mac was
the Zodiac. I'm hoping that thecase is solved. I'm hoping that way,
I hope no matter if I'm rightor wrong, I'm hoping the case
is solved. But I predict ifthe case is solved, that they're going

(53:17):
to announce that Mac was the Zodiac. And until I see something that points
away from that, I'm going tocontinue to believe it because what I've seen
so far just there's nothing that ruleshim out. Everything just seems to rule
him in. I've been hunting forwriting, audio video, more witnesses,

(53:37):
anybody that knew Mac I could providemore information to help rule him out or
potentially rule him in more, andI've been come up short. For her
part. Max's wife said that,And I don't recall the exact reason,
something to do with a family disputeor something, but I believe she said

(53:59):
that Max photos and audio video,anything that she had of his primarily that
might provide more in the way ofhearing or seeing more of him, more
of his writing, all that waslost in some kind of incident that happened.
And I'll have to go back andfind her post about that. But

(54:19):
from her take there, there's notmuch to be gleaned more stuff that we
can find on Mac that she knowsof. I also want to point out
that, you know, I don'taccuse his wife of having knowledge of Max
activities. I don't think she wasany kind of participant. I want to

(54:40):
put that on a record. Idon't think she was helping cover it up.
I think that if Mac was Zodiac, he wouldn't have told her that,
And she did not meet him untilnineteen seventy four, when Zodiac's activity
was ceased, So anything she knowsabout Max time before that, she would
know second, and it would beinformation that she learned from other people or

(55:02):
from Mac himself, and would haveno firsthand knowledge of his life before she
met him. So that's just afact. That's the way it is.
And I don't want anyone thinking thatI'm accusing her having knowledge of his crime,
trying to cover it up, anythinglike that. I think she chose
to talk and be open within reason, when she could have just said we

(55:27):
were crazy and you know, toldme to you know, go pound sand.
She did open up some kind ofcommunication, So I appreciate that from
her, and I can't imagine beingin her shoes all of a sudden finding
out somebody thinks that your spouse wasa serial killer. But again, if

(55:47):
if somehow, some way somebody comesforward with something that rules Mac out,
I will be the first one toreach out to her and say, I
apologize, you know, I youknow I was wrong. If the case
is solved and someone else is calledZodiac and the police say the case is
closed and it was so and soand that name isn't William mac Andrew.

(56:08):
I will apologize and say, hey, it's wrong. I'm open to being
wrong. I'm human. Some peopleare not open to being wrong. They'll
just keep at something despite everything,you know, rulling it out, and
they're just so locked in on theirfavorite suspect that they won't even listen to
reason. They won't listen to anythingthat that rules them out. I'm not

(56:30):
like that. If somebody officially rulesMac out or officially solves the case and
police say it's solved, you know, I'm going to respect that final outcome.
I think it's going to be DNAthat solves this case. You know
a little bit about the genealogy whereMax concerned. They could find if they

(56:52):
can find out who Zodiac was usingthe DNA, it's gonna be a little
bit harder from connecting it to Macand the reason why his parents are dead.
He's dead and he was cremated,so you know, finding his DNA
directly he's going to be tough.He had no siblings, he had no
children, so it's not like youcan go Some of these cases are solving

(57:14):
with DNA and genealogy. They goto a family member, a close family
member and get their DNA and say, Okay, we can't get the suspects
DNA, but we can get theirsibling or their parents or their child.
That can't happen in this case,so it's going to have to be a
more distant relative. Now, Macdid have a lot of cousins in California,

(57:36):
so it's not impossible that this canbe tracked back to Mac. If
he was the Zodiac, it's nota lost cause. And if genealogy is
an option, it may point backto him still despite him having no family
members to test their DNA and himbeing cremated. So that's where things stand

(57:58):
on the macfront. Um. It'sit's a you know, something that I've
sort of put on the back burnerbecause i feel like I've gone as far
as I can at this point.It's in the hands of the police.
They have everything that I've laid out. They have more um that I'm not
going to get into um and itmay prove to be valuable if it'll be

(58:21):
important if he turns out to beZodiac, and if he doesn't then it
doesn't matter. So I'm sitting backand being patient and I'm hoping that this
case is solved with genealogy, andthen we'll find out who Zodiac was um.
And if I'm wrong, you know, there'll be a bunch of people
on the forum laughing and saying you'rewrong. But by the same token,

(58:45):
if I'm right, I'll be onthe forum, you know, calling out
some people that that had some wordsfor me. So time will tell.
It's going to be interesting. Youknow, I love you know the fact
that Mac is sort of under cover, under the radar. You know,
while there's twenty seven thousand posts onTom Boyd's site about Mac, you know,

(59:12):
Mac hasn't really got any national spotlight, which I sort of like,
whereas these other people somebody writes abook about him, writes a magazine article
about him, or comes out withthe claim and makes a press release.
The press just soaks that stuff upand just buys in hook line at syncor
to these these different suspects, andthen here we are six months later,

(59:35):
a year later, the case stillisn't solved, and all of a sudden
another one comes along, and thepress just keeps buying into what they make
documentaries, they make TV shows.We'll hear Mac flies under the radar,
which is good because if the caseis solved, you know, having something
to be released after it's the caseis solved. If it's solved and he's

(59:58):
Zodiac, that'll be a little bitmore of awarding to have everything that can
be released all at once, donein a controlled method, and I'll have
a lot of that to to sharehopefully. But again, at the end
of the day, I just wantto see the key solved. I'm whether
I'm right or wrong, the familiesof the victims deserve justice, and I

(01:00:19):
just want to know. At theend of the day, I just want
to know who Zodiac was. Alot of other people do too. I
still think there will be people thatyou know, will fight tooth and now
and say, no, there's noway this person wasn't Zodiac. It was
my suspect, and that they justwon't accept. Even the police hold press
conference to say here's X Y andZ case closed. There will be other
people that say my suspect was theguy and there's got to be some kind

(01:00:44):
of mistake here, but not me. If they please come out and say
this case is solved and it's notMac someone else, I'll accept that and
move on. I am going tosay that I'm probably never going to look
at another suspect again, because it'sit's taken up too much life of my
time and life looking at suspects overthe years, not so much in recent

(01:01:07):
years, but I've spent countless hoursand hours and hours of my life at
other suspects, just helping people leadthrough suspects. And now I've just come
to the point where its Mac isnot the guy. I'm not going to
dig anymore. I'll to sit backand wait until the case is solved and
see what's revealed. I just don'thave the energy, and I've got just

(01:01:30):
too much other work and stuff goingon in my life to spend the time
going through this. But so that'sa big, rambling, nutshell presentation of
Mac. Again. Stay tuned afterthis part ends, and we're going to
hear from Leigh Meller to talk abouthis profile and Doug McGregor to talk about

(01:01:52):
his GEO profile of where he thinksZodiac lived in why and And I think
listeners will get a lot of informationout of that. So I hope you
enjoyed this. Again you want tocheck out the full detailed twenty seven thousand
post thread, head over to TomWaits site. Zodiac Killer dot com and

(01:02:15):
look for mcgruber m ac g rU b e R and it's pinned in
the Zodiac Hot Topics section right atthe beginning of the site. There's a
lot there, a lot that wethrough and if there's anyone out there listening
that has more information on William McDuffAndrew Bore in nineteen forty five, come

(01:02:37):
forward. Please. I'd love tohear your story. I'd love to hear
what you're to say. If there'saudio, video, photos, more stuff
of his writing especially, I'd loveto see it, So please come forward
with it. There is one thing, just a little nugget that I wanted
to mention because I just thought itwas very interesting and I don't want to

(01:02:58):
forget. So it's sort of outof place here, but Tom Bloyd mentioned
the possibility that Zodiac mailed Valentine's stickersin his Halloween card in nineteen seventy and

(01:03:19):
the reason Tom mentioned that and thoughtthat could be the case was because one
of the police officers he had someinteractions with, and I forgot which one
it was off the top of myhead, had replicas made of everything Zodiac
sent because they wanted to have likesome props to demonstrate what Zodiac had spent

(01:03:39):
sent and in the Halloween card,according to sent of Tom, he opened
them up and there were Valentine's stickersin there. Again, Macbourne, February
fourteenth, Valentine's Day. If that'sthe case, that's just a huge clue

(01:04:00):
that nobody would really know. Itwouldn't really make sense to a lot of
people. But here you go,you know, Halloween card being mailed with
Valentine's stickers in there. If that'sthe case, if that's accurate, just
a huge thumb in the nose ofpolice, Like here, here's a clue
and you're not even gonna know whatto do with it. But looking back
now, with someone that has allthis going for them and then born on

(01:04:25):
February fourteenth, if those stickers Rand D true and Zodiacs sent that stuff,
then that makes Mac look even strongeras a suspect at this point.
But again that's something that has notbeen you know, publicly verified that that's
accurate. But just a little nuggeton top of a bunch of nuggets that

(01:04:48):
just seem to connect thoughts between Macand Zodiac. But that's it for Mac
right now. And again stay tunedfor the other parts of this episode.
And in the future, I'm goingto have a conversation with a DNA expert
who can help weed through what canbe done with DNA in this case maybe

(01:05:12):
solve the case, and who alsoworked on the Bates case in some capacity.
So I hope to add that conversationout on an episode coming up soon,
so stay tuned for that. Thisepisode, it's going to be so
big that I have to break itup into two parts. So after you
get done this first part, partone, head over to part two,
which will be available at the sametime, and you can listen to the

(01:05:35):
conclusion of this to hear more onthe profile by doctor Lee Miller and the
GEO profiling by Doug McGregor. Sobe sure to check that out and thank
you for listening. Thanks for joiningus for this episode of Zodiac Speaking.
Please make sure you're subscribed to theshow wherever you're listening now so you don't

(01:05:55):
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(01:06:19):
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This is Mike Morford and i'd liketo say thanks again for listening and we'll
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