USA TODAY’s Bryan Kalbrosky on Rockets, NBA Draft chatter

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Cheers, Rockets fans, Welcome toThe lagger Line, an exclusive podcast from
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Yeah, Red Nation. Get Ready, Ready, Get Ready. The lagger

(00:27):
Line starts now. Welcome aboard BenDubo's here, Palo Alves there, thanks
for checking out another new episode ofThe logger Line, served to you by
Clutch City Lagger of Carback Brewing.I'm Ben Dubos, your host. Polo

(00:49):
is our co host and producer,and you can follow him on Twitter,
slash x at Palo Alves, NBAme I'm at Ben Dubo's Today. On
this Thursday, May twenty third episode, we're joined by Brian Klbrowski, senior
NBA staff writer at USA Today's forthe Win. Brian is, in my
opinion, one of the best mediaguys out there when it comes to NBA
draft coverage. So whenever the Rocketshave a really good draft asset, which

(01:10):
they certainly do this year at numberthree overall, we like to have him
on to get his perspective on bothwhat they should do as well as what
they will do. Brian, thanksso much for taking the time to join
us, And as our longtime listenersmay recall, a couple of years ago,
we actually sniffed out the Powlllo Benkiroand Javari Smith Junior Draft Night flip
flop a few weeks in advance,right here on this very podcast. So

(01:32):
with that in mind, you readyto make some magic again. Yeah,
I definitely do remember that, andI appreciate you having me on, and
I was I was really listen.I think that it was one of those
things where if every mock draft hadn'thad it, I maybe would have been

(01:52):
a little bit less confident. Ina way. I almost felt like it
was like listen, I didn't feellike it was the consensus that everyone projected
that it was. And I'm veryglad. I think I got part of
the details wrong. I thought itwas going to be actually Chet who went
number one. But either way,it was definitely one of those things that

(02:15):
I'll remember for a while because itjust kind of goes to show that,
you know, smokescreens can be veryreal sometimes, and I think that you
know, it's easy to fool eventhose who do the best of the best
of the mock drafts in the draftbusiness. I think it also speaks to
the power of consensus and to anextent group think this time of year,

(02:37):
because it becomes so easy to fallinto a trap when you see mock after
mock in one direction, to thinkthat there's real momentum, when in reality,
it's just it's something that we havecreated as opposed to what's actually happening
behind closed doors with the NBA teamsmaking these decisions. And so I think

(02:57):
that's a very useful case study tokeep in the back of our mind as
we go through the next few weekslooking at these mocks. Even if a
lot of mocks are growing a certaindirection, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what
the NBA teams are actually going todecide. Also another fun fact for our
listeners. So I was going backthrough my messages with Brian from the pre
draft period a year ago, andI'm guessing you won't mind me sharing this

(03:20):
because it's long after the fact.But even when all the hype surrounding the
Rockets involved him and Thompson, youactually told me in June that you were
hearing some smoke about the Rockets andCam Whitmore as well, flashed forward to
the end of the month. Thenlo and behold, both a Men and
Cam ended up being Rockets, andof course they both ended up having very
encouraging Brookie seasons. Now, itobviously took a little bit of luck to

(03:40):
get to that outcome, with Camstaying on the board until Houston's second pick
age twenty. But as far asyour intel, I do think it's pretty
clear that there was something to itin terms of the Rockets being legitimately interested
in Cam Whitmore. And I believerafel Stone, GM of the Rockets actually
came out in his post draft pressconference and basically confirmed the reporting that was
out there that he was actually lookingto trade up as early as laid in

(04:03):
the top ten to get a pickfor Cam Whitmore, couldn't agree on terms
and just got lucky that Cam somehowended up staying on the board until twenty.
But the bottom line is there wassomething too the idea that the Rockets
had interest not just hit him andThompson, but Cam Whitmore as well,
and I think that ultimately played outvery well for them. I think that's

(04:24):
absolutely right, and I think thatyou know, that's cool that you were
able to pull that out. AndI think that, you know, had
a then maybe gone a little bithigher, or a different situation had arisen,
I think that Whitmore was probably oneof the names they were considering at
four. And I think that realistically, you know, a men was higher

(04:45):
on their board, but a lotof teams, you know, create their
own internal draft board and pull forthe best available. And I think that
once it got to pick twenty,it became incredibly obvious that Whitmore was not
going to fall to twenty one.You know, I was, I was
in the building in Brooklyn, andI think I turned to somebody who I
was sitting near, and I wasjust like, this, this is definitely

(05:08):
where the slide stops. I alsohad written an article before the draft predicting
that Whitmore was going to be thebiggest slider in the draft because while the
Rockets were interested, you know,it doesn't mean that every team's interested.
And I think that there were therewere a few teams that had, you
know, concerns about him that Ithink at this point have probably been reported,

(05:28):
and it doesn't necessarily mean that twentywas the right draft possession. For
him. I think that there areprobably teams who drafted players ahead of him
that maybe already would redo that ifthey could, knowing what they know in
hindsight. But I think that hewas somebody who I had prepared a post
for on Draft night of wise Canwent falling into the draft even before the

(05:50):
draft had already started, just kindof preparing to post that on Draft night.
And obviously that isn't what ended uphappening, but I think that it
was. It was a great matchbecause you know, the Rockets were able
to use him, and now theyhave such an abundance of talent on that
roster, which leads us to wherewe are today. Where you know they
were, you know, just justshy the playoffs with one of the deeper

(06:14):
rosters in the NBA as well asthe top three pick, which is crazy.
Absolutely And to your point on twentytwenty three, to close the loop
on that, Yeah, if Portlandhad shocked the world and taken a Men
Thompson at three, and how willyou can cover your ears when I say
what I'm about to say. I'mnot one hundred percent convinced that the Rockets
would have taken Scoot Henderson at four. I just don't think they valued him

(06:36):
that highly through the pre draft process. I think it's entirely possible that they
could have gone Cam at four inthat scenario. Yeah, I think that
that's actually real. And I thinkthat a Men was probably the other player
that Portland was looking at, whichis not shocking considering three and four were
you know what with ended up asBut I think that Portland had serious consideration

(06:58):
for amount of three and I thinkthat it was probably tough for them to
decide between him and Scoot Power.Are you still are you still? I
remember last year you were huge andstood after after the freshman season he had
are you still the still the sameboat? Or where are you at now?
Listen? Man? Well, firstof all, I think Ben's made
his mission on this podcast to traumatizeme. I mean, you mentioned the

(07:20):
polo, which was very very dearto me. You mentioned you said you
were evaluation though we've been recording.We've been recording this podcast for over two
years now, if that right cycle, it's about Wow, that's a long
time. I'm feeling old. Andnow you bring up the Scoot song,
which is even I mean, it'snot as bad as follow but it's it's

(07:43):
up there. I mean, Idon't know if I'll survive this podcast to
the end. But terms of Brian'squestion, I'm not as sigh as I
was, obviously because we have aseason one sample size, and I did
think that Portland had a like prettygood supporting cast of sorts or team structure
for a point guard to slide into. I mean, they have pretty good

(08:05):
vets. It's not a rocket situationin the first three years where there was
was basically no good players around,you know, the young players. But
I mean it's still a point guard. It's still an undersized point guard.
He still as a thirty tools.I still believe in the in the in
the processing speed. I still believethat clump Flox would get there eventually.

(08:26):
I'm not selling stock, especially becauseit's so undervalued right now until year three,
but I'm not unhappy whatsoever that wegot a mentum cent. Instead,
I'll say that, yeah, andI do think that the reporting on draft
day that there was some uncertainty Reportlandis legitimate. To Brian's point, I
do think that they at least gavethat some very real consideration before ultimately going

(08:48):
with Scoot and perhaps in the ultimateway to troll Powlo. I'm sure you
noticed the final weekend when Scoot wentlike six for six on threes against the
Rockets to start that game. Rememberthat that was his weakness for most of
the year, and yet that secondto last game, somehow he went,
yeah, like made his first six, including one from basically half court.

(09:11):
Did that traumatize you in any wayat that point? At that point,
I was already we already had,you know, a big enough kind of
sample size for me to be allin an order mentals that can be.
And we've talked about this on thepod. I mean, even if he
doesn't hit this ceiling, I stillthink that he hit the very least will
be an error Gordon type of veryvery valuable role player, which is not

(09:31):
what I'm trying to sell people,and it's them to be excited about the
draft. But having a very areaYeah, absolutely, And I think that's
a good place to start, becauseultimately, no matter how you felt about
the twenty twenty three draft at thetime, I think a year later,
with the benefit of hindsight, wefeel pretty good about the job that Rafelstone

(09:52):
and his front office in Houston didin evaluating talent and hopefully that holds true
through this twenty twenty four cycle aswell. Rockets pick at three in the
first round. They also have asecond rounder and I believe pick forty four
from Golden State. Anyway, asfar as this year's class, I want
to start with the most basic fundamentalquestion for you, Brian. If you're
sitting in the chair of Rafel orema Udoka, what's your macro perspective after

(10:18):
having this pick basically fall into yourlap. Keep in mind, supposed to
be at nine or ten the pickfrom Brooklyn, they had just a fifteen
percent chance of being top three.Get somehow it hit And the reason I
asked that, I've been all overthe map. My first inclination on lottery
day back on the twelfth was totrade it. And certainly it's still possible
because in the big picture, asyou mentioned, Rockets already have a ton

(10:39):
of young prospects. They were fortyone and forty one last year. They
want to take another jump next year. Yet the Western Conference is really hard.
So combine all those factors and tradingthe pick for a veteran that helps
you win. Now, it checksa lot of boxes, but when you
look a little more in depth,and you consider that both chari Ethan and
Steve Adams are coming back from injuries, and with that, you already have

(11:03):
a full nine man rotation for nextyear, and so any veteran you bring
in, you've got to ask thequestion, where are the minutes going to
come from? Now? If theveteran is literally like an All Star level
player Kelly Eco reported to Houston's interestin Donovan Mitchell earlier this week, then
yeah, that's a different scenario.But I'm going to put that aside for

(11:24):
now because there's just countless other considerationsif you're talking about literally trading for an
All Star, because you'd be talkingabout assets going out way beyond just the
number three pick in terms of tradingfor a role player, which is easier
and something I do think you coulddo just with the number three in salary
filler, Rockets have a ton ofexpiring contracts they could use for matching.
My thinking on that has really evolvedover the last ten days or so,

(11:48):
because not only do you have toconsider the nine man rotation, the Rockets
already have the five starters for mostof this year, Amn and Cam and
then Tarry Easton and Steven Adams.But you've also got to consider the non
tax player mid level, which willallow them to sign a guy at a
starting salary of up to I believethirteen million dollars. So if a guy
you're hypothetically trading for isn't clearly betterthan someone you can just sign, and

(12:11):
you've already got a rotation this nineor ten deep, so it's not like
you need that many bodies anyway,why wouldn't you just sign a veteran role
player and keep the draft asset.In that same Killer Eco article, he
pointed out Malik Beasley as someone Houstonwould be interested in. He shot over
forty one percent on threes with theBucks, plays capable defense, just twenty
seven years old, Bucks do nothave bird rights on him. If the

(12:33):
player you're hypothetically trading for isn't thatmuch better than Malik Beasley, who would
fit a roll with the Rockets,why wouldn't you just sign Beasley with your
mL your mid level exception, whichis higher since the Rockets are not a
tax paying team, and just draftthree and have a prospect that you can
develop for the future as well.Because the other factor to consider here is
future contracts. Houston is a teamthat's about to get way more expensive,

(12:58):
assuming you keep this shown quarter together. So Jalen Green and all for e
Shanoon they can get significant raises.As soon as this offseason their extension eligible,
they can get their second NBA contracts, and you've got to decide on
that by the twenty twenty five offseasonat the latest. Jabari Smith Tarry Easton
there just a year behind them.So you've got a team that's going to
get way pricier, and you've gota new CBA that makes it tougher to

(13:20):
maintain these expensive teams. With thatin mind, as I see it,
there's a lot of value in havinga solid young role player on a cost
controlled rookie scale deal. And Iknow the downside of this class as far
as the twenty twenty four crop ofrookies, is that there's no Whimby,
there's no Kate Cunningham, there's nochet Holm Grin, there's no can't miss

(13:41):
prospect at or near the very top. But if you feel good about the
potential of at least getting a highend role player, and I think it's
fair to expect that from a numberthree overall in this class, to me,
there's potentially a lot of benefit therefor a team that's constructed like the
Rockets and is about to get moreexpensive to just staying the core, because
even if there isn't super high endupside, it might not matter that much.

(14:05):
To the Rockets. You already havea ton of high upside guys if
you can just get a high endrole player on a sub mL contract with
years of club control, And that'swhat this pick should get. To me,
the more I think about it,there's a strong case to just stay
the course and take best player availableunless a trade offer overwhelms you to where
you've just got to act. Brian, how would you balance all those factors

(14:28):
in some of the competing interests atplay when you think about Houston's situation in
the macro? Yeah, I thinkyou covered a lot of things there,
and I'm going to try to getto as many of them as I can
recall fair enough. But I dothink that the one thing that you did
not get to that I'm going tojust kind of mentioned first is that the
value of the third pick in thisclass to other teams is probably not going

(14:54):
to be as high as it isin typical draft classes. So I think
there are a turn on the investmentthat you're going to get, uh with
the three pick is not a typicalreturn. You know, you might not
get the three pick in next year'sclass. For example, Teams probably aren't
going to be giving you maybe atwenty five pick at all, twenty twenty
five draft pick at all, becausethey want to be in on the Cooper

(15:16):
flag Drafter or whoever they might likein that in that class instead, Right,
So I think that ultimately the factthat you're probably not even going to
get a pick in next year's classkind of leads me to think along the
lines of what you're going to besaying as well, which is that retooling
with rookie scale contracts it is probablythe smartest way to actually build this roster

(15:37):
right now. I think if youlook at teams that are having you know,
success in this season right now thatwe're currently playing in, you know,
you're seeing guys that have had ayou know, value beyond expectation on
their rookie scale contracts, and Edwardsat you know, the one pick cap
hit is obviously an exception because he'sa one pick, but you know,

(16:00):
look at a team like Oklahoma Citythat has hit on multiple picks and has
them on the Rookie Scale contracts likeChet Holmgren to a lesser extent, Josh
Gitty, Cassan Wallace, Jalen Williams. These are all guys who are are
making the Rookie Scale contracts and thenyou know, playing in the rotation because
of it and having value. Now, eventually they're gonna have to pay all

(16:25):
those guys and it's not gonna reallywork with their with their overall numbers,
so they're gonna have to probably consolidate. But thankfully for team like Oklahoma City,
they have enough picks to do that. I think this is a Houston's
chance to kind of do exactly that, which is, you know, find
some replacement for some of the guysthat they're gonna have to pay at some
point that they might not want topay at some point. I think one

(16:47):
of the reasons why you know,other teams maybe were bound scurly, including
like the Blakers for example, isbecause they didn't have enough guys on the
Rookie Scale contracts contributed. You know, they have Gostly, Jayla hu Chafino
and Max Christie who were and MaxwellLewis who were their recent picks. None
of them really saw the court atall during playoffs, and I think it

(17:10):
hurt them. And I think that, you know, having as much depth
for relatively cheap contracts as you canis a good way to replace guys who
make a lot of money. AndI think, you know, if guys
like Donovan Mitchell are on the table, that obviously is something that you're going
to have to consider if the priceis right, especially because this is a
natural fit for consultant for roster consolidationHouston. You're going to have a lot

(17:33):
of guys in Houston that, doyou know, I think a decent that
are going to require a decent amountof a payday when when when that time
comes for their extensions and for theirnext contracts. But at the same time,
if I have it, if Ihave I I have this pick,
I'm looking for guys for for theRockets, Like, yeah, I think

(17:56):
finding a guy who could be ahigh end role player who could step on
the court, uh and make animpact the way you know some of the
rookies did, like a Brandon Pazemskior a him Hawks did this season and
granted the three pick. You couldprobably even get a more talented guy than
that. So yeah, potentially,uh you know, prom to even trade

(18:17):
down turn that into two or threepicks, right, you know that that
could be another thing I would consider. But at the same time, you
know, there's only so much rosterspace to trade down because you have to
probably you know, pay those guyseventually too. So maybe not trade down
turn into multiple picks in this class, maybe just one pick for this class.
I do think it's interesting the ideaof trading down, but not for

(18:38):
multiple picks in this draft. Butperhaps you know, lower pick in thiss
trast and perhaps a future one.But that's that not we've established that the
most likely course of actions either youknow, a consolidation trait, so not
a trade for a role player,but maybe three for an at Mitchel or
if not that, probably drafting thepick you may you made the point that's

(19:00):
been made a lot in this inthis cycle, which is this is not
as strong of a draft class asyou typically have. The Big three doesn't
have as much value as it typicallyhas. I want to kind of put
you on the spot a little bitand say, let's put some more concrete
like value or let's try to rankthis draft class in two aspects, right,

(19:23):
both amongst the last you know,four draft draft classes. I think
the last one that people said thatwas weaker was the COVID class with Anthony
Edwards, LaMelo Ball and James Weismantgoing top three. You know from that
year, founding that year and thesubsequent years, where would you rank this
class, you know, amongst thoseand where would you rank you know,

(19:45):
I think you have a recappered markto the rockets. Where would you rank
in this case Recapbard amongst the coursesix prospects on the Rockets, So that
would be Jail and shoun came withMormon, Thompson, George in the entire
Yeaston. Just so we can kindof place just how weak of the draft
class this is, you know,both within the team and within the past

(20:07):
few draft classes. Yeah, Imean, okay, listen, I think
to the first part of your question, I think that this is pretty objectively
the NBA draft with the worst projectedstar power uh and the worst easily projectable
top picks since twenty thirteen. I'dsay that with pretty strong confidence, right,

(20:30):
that's a little drafted Anthony Bennett atnumber one, victor O Ladepa.
What number two on the porter?What number three? Cody Zellert number four,
Alex Lamer number five. None ofthe guy's picked in the top five
amounted to much except for maybe Oladipo, who's had some success and a couple
of stops in Houston as well.Actually, is he still in Houston's roster
right now? Actually I think aboutit, or now I don't even know

(20:51):
they used him. I think weused him for Steven Adams. Yeah,
he was the Yeah, they convertedKPJ's contract to Oldepo and then Old Deep
was the vehicle for Adams. Soyeah, yeah, so fly enough.
Steven Adams was a twenty thirteen draftpicked. So that's actually what I was
going to say, is now,none of the top nine picks and not

(21:14):
did too much. But CJ.McCollum was picked at ten, Steven Adams
was picked at twelve, and thenGiannis and too. Decompo, who's undisputably
a top three basketball player in theworld, was picked at fifteen. Rudy
Gobert, who is the only playerstanding left in the playoffs right now,
who is one of the top fifteenhighest paid players in the NBA was picked

(21:36):
at twenty seven, and these kindof things happen, right. I think
that just because it's hard to projectwho the stars in this class are does
not mean that it's going to bea week class down the line. At
the end of the day, thereactually may have been as many stars in
the twenty thirteen class as any class, because you're getting guys like CJ.
McCollums, Steven Adams has played along, strong career, Giannis and Gobert,

(22:00):
who are two of the most impactfulplayers you know, no matter how
you judge it, you know,all the impact metrics will tell you that.
Obviously, people have had their critiquesof Gobert over the years, but
you know his impact is undeniable.That's not to scare away someone to say
that there's no way the Rockets correctlyidentify who that guy is going to be
at three. I think we've gottenbetter at scouting over the years, and

(22:22):
I think that these things, youknow, evolve, and I think that
that was a particularly strange draft.Class. Twenty twenty was a particularly challenging
draft class to evaluate because of thesample size and because we didn't get a
March mad in this tournament. Andyou know, I think that may have
actually been the first year of theIgnite potentially, if I'm a membering that
correctly, And you know, thereare plenty of factors that made that one

(22:47):
hard to evaluate too, but allthings considered, yeah, I think that
no matter how you stack this classup in terms of the projected star power
at this point, yeah, Ithink it's the we since twenty thirteen.
And at the same time, thetwenty thirteen draft ended up being actually pretty
good. So ultimately I would saythat, you know, the best player

(23:10):
in this draft might not be pickedat one or two or three, could
be three if you're a Rockets fan, right, Like, potentially they identify
to that guy is or you know, to the point that Ben made earlier,
potentially that three pick could be usedto just draft a really high end
role player, right you know,CJ. McCollum's not like a long time

(23:33):
also are in this league. Butif you get CJ. McCollum in this
draft, that's great, Right,Like if you get a Steve Adams in
this class, that's great. Ithink that one of the players that's being
talked about as as the most likelyRocket gets pick or one of the most
likely Rockets pick. Actually two ofthe players that are being talked about in
that ranger, Donovan Klingen and ReedShepherd. I don't think that either of

(23:57):
them end up with multiple star appearancesin their career. I don't see that
for them. I think both ofthem have long, strong NBA careers and
I would probably want both of themon my roster if I were a Rockets
fan, and I think that youknow, potentially both of them can make
you know, win now impacts onrookie Steale contracts. Donovan Klingen probably would

(24:19):
not start for the Rockets, dependingon what the situation looks like at center
and Steven Adams's health and all ofthat. Maybe he does, I don't
know. I think they'd figure thatout later. But you know, that's
the back to that national champion whohas contributed to winning at a high level
and has had one of the highestplus minuses in college basketball two years in

(24:40):
a row. And all the impactmetrics always love Dov and Klingon, and
you know one player he gets comparedto a lot is Rudy Gobert. But
I think that realistically, you know, do I expect DONV and Klingon to
make like, you know, theNBA Hall of Fame, like, definitely
not. I think that there areholes in his game. I think that
if he was a projected you know, uh, several time All Star,

(25:03):
he'd probably be the consensus one pick. And he's not not being said.
I actually wouldn't be terribly floored ifhe goes at one. I think that's
a that's a that's definitely something thatwhoever ends up picking out one, presumably
Atlanta, but maybe they trade itconsiders and Read Shepherd. I kind of
feel similarly about all of their oppositebills and opposite positions. Every every metric

(25:26):
tells you that Read Shepherd's game shouldtranslate pretty well to the NBA. He
had great combine, uh, helooked really good out there, and the
athletic test in one of the bestarticles of anyone who tested. And his
numbers as a freshmen were among thebest we've ever seen from a guard or
someone his height, just period.Like he was phenomenal in his one year

(25:48):
at Kentucky. I think that he'ssomebody that I would definitely you know,
highlight and and want to have onmy roster. Now to the second part
of your question, how would Irank them relative to Houston's current roster of
young core players. You happen tohave some pretty good young core players,
So I would say that I personallywould have Men Thompson and Sheng Goon definitively

(26:14):
above them, no matter. Buteveryone in this class, you know,
I think if there was a redraft, with all the players on the Rockets
who were drafted in this rebuild includedin this redraft, included in this class,
I would say Men Thompson definitively wouldbe a consensus number one pick.
I would say Shng Goon, ofcourse, not what we know now.

(26:37):
Also would be shoot Ken Whitmore wouldprobably go top five or top ten in
this class. He'd probably go whereverabout where Ron Holland is projected. I
think that they have relatively similar profilesand resumes. I'm not sure what to
say about Jabari Smith Jr. Comparedto the guys who were in this class,

(27:00):
but obviously, you know, Ithink that he would probably go one
in this class as well, SoI think that he would probably be ahead
of these guys too. So yeah, I think that I think that it's
it's a tough, tough questions wedon't know who the Rockets would end up
picking, but I'd say pretty muchevery everybody in that Rockets young core would

(27:21):
probably be a player i'd rather havelong term than the players in this class.
But that's not necessarily a discredit.You know. For example, like
I brought up the Lakers earlier,I would take I would take anyone in
this class over any one of theLakers young core. You know, the
Rockets just haven't have a really deepyoung core. You know, there's there's

(27:44):
not there's not a lot of teamsthat you could say that's about. There's
a lot of teams that I wouldnot send it's about. You know,
there's no there's no no one inthe Phoenix young core that I would take
above anyone in this class either.So you know, I think I think
that Houston just happens to have ase They've drafted well, they've identified strong
talent, they've they've gotten them allminutes. Which is cool too. I

(28:07):
think that a lot of times whenteams draft players, those people end up
not actually getting run. The Rocketsare good about letting their guys play and
show out. You know, wesaw that even when when Tate was was
a rookie a few years ago,right like he was able to come in
and obviously he was older and havealready had a professional career overseas. But

(28:29):
you know, they're they're one toplay their guys and see what we got.
You know, tari Ethan wasn't alottery pick, but he came in
and made an mediate impact. Youknow, they're I think there are other
teams that would have drafted Tarti Easan, uh that would have maybe just kind
of kept them on the bench.So I think that the Rockets might not
have that luxury in the future becausethey're so deep now that they might not
be able to give these guys somuch run. But if they drafted three,

(28:53):
whoever's getting picked at three, it'sgonna make the rotation presumably, you
know, that's that's the costly player. You know, that guy's probably gonna
Oh. Also, by the way, I didn't even mention Jalen Green when
I was talking about guys. Obviously, I think i'd have Jalen Green about
anyone in this class too. Anyway, that was mine, and it's always
good to it's always good to getthe outside perspective. You mentioned the young

(29:15):
core in Houston being so advanced relativeto most others around the league. I'm
assuming based on that that you're onboard with them giving the contract extension to
Rafelstone. When you look at thelast four years, the body of work
and how they've drafted, how they'vedeveloped, are you on board with them
saying the course as far as thisregime, Yeah, definitely. I think
that, you know, the yearover year improvement that they showed suggests that

(29:38):
you know, they're tending in theright direction by by all accounts. I
think that Houston has a really brightand promising young future. Ye. Now,
the West is a is a gauntlet, uh right, you know,
a promising young future could legitimately bethe eighth seed, right like and that
and that's the pressure to potentially tradefor a veteran. But yeah, yeah,

(30:00):
exactly, And I think that Ithink that that's why they're a team
that's prime for consolidation because they haveso much talent on their roster. Yeah,
that's why a team like Cleveland makesa lot of sense too, because
you know, in clean a teamlike Cleveland would be probably fairly interested in
the young players in the rebuild andthings like that, because you know,

(30:21):
they have a few young players ontheir roster with Evin Mobley, and I
mean Darius Carlin is getting older,but he's still relative. He's still on
the probably right side of yeah,yeah, right side of twenty five.
I know that when I make mytwenty five on Underlists, he's made it
the last few years, so thatwas wasn't sure one more? Yeah,

(30:44):
exactly. So yeah, I thinkthat that that that picks, you know,
what makes sense for a team likeCleveland and they could potentially get back
into that rebuild over there and youdon't recinterruct with that. But at the
same time, you know, likeyou does not have that same luxury.
I think in the Western Conference,I think you you need as much stark

(31:06):
power as you can. And thankfully, I think they've got multiple guys who
have that sort of potential ceiling ofbeing real stars in the NBA, and
they're gonna have to pay them alland that's going to be too extensive to
pay all of them. It justis It's just not the nature of the
NBA. I maybe we saw thatwith the Loama City many years ago with
Jim's Harden. You know, hesaw to a smaller extent in Denver losing

(31:27):
Bruce Brown, you know, yousee it all the time. You see
with the Lakers who lost Caruso.It's a real thing, like eventually gets
to a point where the roster justdoesn't doesn't work out financially. So you
know, if you can get aheadof that and find replacements for guys in
the draft, you know, andhave them mi rokey scale contracts, that's
the most valuable thing you could have. And that's that's why, that's why

(31:48):
Reed Shepherd makes a ton of senseto me as a potential Red van Vleet
replacement. I think that that's apretty natural comparison for him. He's that's
a player that I would that Iwould definitely, you know, try to
have a try to emulate the careerof if I, if I was a
prospect. You know, I thinkthat they've they've really done a good job

(32:09):
of, you know, maximizing whatFred Vanvleet's build is and what he could
play like in the NBA, andif Rea Sheepherd can emulate a lot of
those same traits and you know,play similarly hard on defense and contribute in
that sense, see somebody who whoI would love them my roster as a
potential placement there in terms of yourlatest mock draft, which is available for

(32:31):
the win. So you have readto the Rockets, which I think a
lot of people do, because ifthey end up staying the course, then
movement shooting is something that can fitin a number of roster constructs, even
if the Rockets do make a biggermove elsewhere. And by the way,
you mentioned the likelihood or lack thereof, of keeping those guys into their second

(32:53):
contracts the course six. Raphel Stonewas actually asked at his postseason press conference
about whether the Rockets can do that, and he was insistent that they could.
But at the same time, that'sone of those what do you expect
him to say. He's not goingto go on the record and say no,
we can't. Of course, he'sgoing to put on a brave face
saying that it's doable. As faras whether it actually is, especially in

(33:14):
these high end scenarios where all theseguys look like potential star or at least
rotation level players in the NBA,yeah, it's going to be hard,
and so you do need to thinkfinancially strategically, and that's where this pick
comes into play. So you've gotRed currently mocked to the Rockets for the
same reasons A lot of people dothe movement shooting spacing the floor. It
can fit in so many different rosterconstructs. It gives Rafaelstone a lot of

(33:37):
optionality looking at the rest of yourtop ten. So I was going to
ask you about so you're mock which, as we talked about leading off the
pod, you've never been afraid togo against the consensus a little bit.
You're a little higher on Nikolotopitch.You've got him at the Wizards at two.
You're a little lower on Donovan Klingen. You have him at nine,
which is actually spot that the Rocketstheoretically trade down to. There's actually one

(34:00):
of the Bleacher Report guys proposed todeal with Marcus Smart nine for pick three,
in which case the Grizzlies would bepicking Clinging. You've got cling and
actually falling to the Grizzlies. Iwas going to ask you if you were
down on Clinging, but from listeningto your comments a few minutes ago,
I don't think you are. Isit more just about the fact that this

(34:21):
class is so flat at the top, and there's not a ton of variance
between two and nine. Just explainsort of that gap and how you came
to I guess your initial wave ofpicks. Yeah, I think that there
aren't necessarily a ton of teams pickingin the lottery this year, or at
least in the top ten, thatare going to be looking to give a
big man minutes. Yeah. Andby the way, I saw ESPN's Jeremy

(34:45):
Wu made the same point today,like the mock that just came out with
Givoni and Jeremy Wu at ESPN wassaying that, you know, they've heard
lots of good things about Clinging beingplay at, you know, as high
as number one overall, but theyactually mocked cling In in their latest mock
at six because the Hornet to thefirst team that they saw potentially picking a
center. So I guess that goesinto it too. It's not just how
you feel about the player, it'salso who's going to actually pick them,

(35:07):
right. Yeah. And frankly,I don't think that the Hornets would want
a center. I think that Ithink that I think that they would like
to have Mark Williams in that role. I think that Mark Wains is a
really serviceable cigner for them. Andyou know, I think that. Honestly,
like one of the teams that Ithink would be considering Klingon would be

(35:31):
number one Atlanta. I think thatClingon should be in play at one.
I I don't think he's the pertypical one pick by any stretch. That's
that's not the profile that I thinkhe has. But in this class,
especially for a team like Atlanta thatwe don't know whether they're going to rebuild
their retool or whatever they wanted todefine the sense process, as you know,

(35:55):
I think that that's somebody they considerfor sure. I'm not I'm not
low and Clinging. I did havehim low in my mock for sure,
but I think that's the way thatlottery went. Yeah, definitely, you
know, I think it definitely.One of the reasons is probably because Detroit
picking it five has nine big men. San Antonio at four and eight certainly

(36:16):
has a big man as well.You know. I think that Houston's a
team that that Cannon should consider ClingingUh at three. I think I think
that the Wizards should pick a floorgeneral at two, and I think they
will likely consider one. And I'mI am high on to Pitch, and
I think that Topitch is somebody whowho definitely listen, one of my favorite

(36:40):
archetypes is like the Ben Thompson,you know, floor general, who's six
seven type of a player, andthat that is, you know, Tovich
does not have the one hundred percentoff, that doesn't what Thompson has.
But I'm just a stutter for thatkind of stuff. And I think the
Wizards are gonna, you know,feel similarly when they're on the clock.
But yeah, I mean, listen, my mock is is not necessarily based

(37:05):
on what I would do. Ithink that typically I'll try to incorporate as
much until as I can, whilealso you know, going against the grain
when I think it's necessary, whichis why I think that, you know,
I think that I was one ofthe few who have clinging where I
do. But if if if Clinginggoes one or two or three, I

(37:29):
don't feel what there would be onmy face because that's These are all places
that I seriously considered him at aswell, you know, before I had
him where I had him. Also, that mock came out I think probably
within four minutes of the lottery orderof being announced. There wasn't there wasn't
a ton of thought that went intoit, and it was pre Combine.

(37:51):
I actually will say that I don'tknow how I feel about Combine. His
measurements were really really good, right, really good. Like he he's genuinely
I think something close to seven totwo in sos like he is a huge
dude. But from a mobility perspectiveand Alison perspective, he got beat by
Zach Edy in every single drill,which is crazy because Zach Gaedy is not

(38:15):
exactly someone else for his athleticism.And you know Clinton is struggling with injuries
in the past too, And Ithink I just think that there's reasons you
could talk yourself in the clinging andreason you could talk yourself out of clan
in, which is why I havethem where I have them. But I
think that you know, if ateam takes his wing on him at one,
two, three, four, Iwould not be surprised whatsoever. Definitely

(38:37):
interesting. I definitely align with withwhat you said about thinking I don't like
him for the rockets, namely becauseif he has to play with Shangun,
I just don't trust the mobility ofeither of them to be able to guard
anything other than a full footed five. They're being said, I think should
kind of give the people what theywant, and then if they if anybody

(38:59):
has any sort of a somewhat rocketstwitters, thinking knows that if it's not
Alexar, people want Reach Chepherd.And so let's talk a bit about Reachepherd,
who happens to before you mocked tothe rockets. So that's perfect the
first thing I want to ask.So obviously the max the like the word

(39:19):
numbers came in for it doing hisEverybody was going nuts and he definitely has
some hops, right you can tellwhen you watch a play. There's some
highlights that prove it. But atthe same time, his standing reach it
was god awful for any man forany like standard. Do you think he
intentionally thanked his standing reach for hiswords to look better? Because for those

(39:45):
who don't you know, aren't tofamiliar, those two are related, right,
The measurements are related. Those measurementsare related. I don't know.
I don't know that well enough tostick to it, So I will not
speak to it because I think it'shard to hard to say because those measurements

(40:06):
are definitely related. I am.I think it would be interesting to see,
you know what nob he actually hitin the air, right, like
with his max vert, because that'sa good way to kind of combine the
two, is showing your standing reachplus max vert. I think that's a
more interesting way of doing that.For example, a few years ago,
I was just rereading some old draftcoverage of Vine and I saw that Jaylen

(40:31):
Williams of the Thunder ended up pickingin that class. If you combine his
like overall standing reach plus his maxvert, he actually was able to get
higher in the air and touch higherrather at least than guys like John John
Collins, Aaron Gordon, and strangelyRudy Gobert despite Rudy but Gobert's size.

(40:53):
So I think that combining those twonumbers is kind of the most interesting way
to give you out show relative perspectiveon just kind of your overall total reach,
right is how how high you canjump relative also to your height too,
And that way kind of eliminates whetheror not you may have been fudging
the numbers on your on your onyour total standing in reach and height.

(41:19):
And you know, I think thathe had five dunks last season total six
dunk attempts, six dump six dunkattempts, But you know, he had
a lot of blocks for someone hissize. Undersized guards do not typically have
the block percentages that he had lastseason, especially undersized freshman guards. So

(41:42):
I would say that you know,you saw, you saw it and implemented
at his defense. Also, youknow, five dunks sounds low, but
there are guys white taller than himwho didn't get five dunks last season as
well. You know, there aresome people who just don't really that is
part of their game. So hecan get up And I think that,
uh, you know, it's he'snot an above the written player. He's

(42:05):
never going to be an above therim player. That's not who he is
or what he is or or whatdefines him as a player. But you
know, I think he is beensomeone who has been criticized for as his
athleticism in the past, right,Like that's seen as a weakness for him,
and I think that it's clearly nota weakness for him. I think

(42:27):
it's clearly I think that's related tothe hair cut. I think a lot
of people take off the plans becausethe haircut is not stylish enough. Just
just have to put it out there. Yeah, that's that's certainly possible.
You know, I think that youknow, he's somebody who who I think,
you know, is somebody who Ithink, uh just had a pretty

(42:52):
a pretty he had a pretty interestingseason for me, uh in a lot
of ways and should pop in alot of analytical models. And uh,
he finished really well the rim too, So regardless of whether or not he
was dunking or not, uh,he was not getting punk at the rim
he shot. I think it lookslike sixty five percent on on what's considered
to be close to s that's reallyhigh, Like sixty five percent at the

(43:15):
rim for someone his size is isreally high and uh, you know,
definitely worth mentioning. You know,I think that that's better than guys like
Dalton connect who are we're way tallerthan him, and and a bunch of
other players who are similarly you know, projected, but have a lot more
high than he does. So youknow, I I'll take I'll take his

(43:38):
rim finishing, you know, andI'll definitely, uh you know, take
note of it as well, becauseI think it's relevant. I think it
matters, and you know, he'snot going towards the rim and getting you
know, his uh his shots sentinto the stands every time. You know,
he's He's somebody who's able to getin there and and finish finish well.
So you know, he also Ithink of the shots at the rim

(44:01):
that he took, only seven pointseven percent of them were assisted, which
is really really low. He's ableto create his own shot at the rim,
which is great. You know,the fact that he's able to create
his own shot at the rim athis size is also you know, definitely
worth worth mentioning. So I'm highon Reed Shepard. I think that,

(44:22):
you know, if I were theRockets, that's who I would pick.
That's who I think they're going topick as well. I think we're aligned
there. So that's one of thosemocks that I think just kind of worked
out really well where I'm like,I have him about three. I think
the Rockets probably would have them aroundthat range too. But also these last
few years, you know, Ithink that we're seeing the Rockets have typically

(44:45):
valued guys who are really really goodathletes, right, and then Thompson is
one hundred percent of athlete. CanThompson probably the second best athlete in that
class, you know, I thinkthat, uh, these last few years,
we've we've seen i know, Ralphailestoneand said he doesn't really have a
player type, but I think thatclearly there is something to be said about

(45:07):
athleticism. Jalen Green another pretty goodathlete. Now our Perch and Gun not
so much. But at the sametime, like you know, there is
something to be said here. Yeah, I think there's definitely a pattern in
the value at sixteen, which istoo much to pass up. Yeah,
at some point it just becomes avalue equation thing. Yeah, sorry for

(45:27):
cutting off two. Yeah, butI also think that with Laon he has
a lot of other things that balanceout. True, and I think,
I mean, maybe Kiln is notan example. The best example of this
maybe KLIPPARTI also isn't, but thosewere different picks at the top of the
draft. I think Tarrysan Amn Fomsand Alprinting Goon they do have a type

(45:50):
when it comes to athleticism. ObviouslyKillin is uper athletic and with more of
the same thing, but they alsohave a type where they like high IQ
players and I think high basketball Likeyou, I think Ingram fits into that
and then fits into that defensively.The reason also fits into that. The
offensively, he has some ways togo there, But I think the Shepherd
also fits into that mold, andyou made a very interesting comparison. And

(46:15):
I was first the first few timesthat I was that was watching him.
I saw a lot of seems takinga lot of the same clots that Curry
takes, but he's obviously not evenclose to her. Even as a prospect.
He shoots deep. He shoots reallydeep, like I have dated,
I have dated to suggests that amongthe draft prospects, he shoots like he
has the most deep shots of anybody, Which is why I was looking for

(46:37):
you know, because if you compareback when the Parliam and Cara draft,
I didn't comp them too Lebron James, but I said I saw a lot
of similar things. As a powerwing rather than a I saw him as
a power wing ideally rather than abully ball, for which turned in the
comes from Julius Randell to a guylike Lebron Games and obviously the comps not

(46:59):
a Lebron. I meant the styleof type of player, And you mentioned
something similar. You mentioned fred Eendlichich. I think makes a lot of sense.
But as you said as well,he seems to be a lot better
at finishing at the room than Fredendlyhas ever been. He seems to take
a lot of the same shot,and it seems to be really good at
punishing or at playing or punishing peoplegoing underscreen and being quick to identify that

(47:22):
that has happened, and taking theshot both from three point range from the
midrange as well. So I thinkoffensively that that all makes a lot of
sense. I think defensively, alot of people differentiate Rich Shepherd from Rob
Billingham because they say three Shepherds aremuch better defendent, and I would agree
with with that. That being said, what I want to ask about is

(47:45):
we see that he has the firstthought he has, but he has athleticism,
you know, going up and down, and he has some agility I
think, I mean, this doesn'treally mean too much, but his he's
liam agility in on Murders line.His sprint numbers were good. What I
was what I was going to askis what in the film lateral mobility did

(48:08):
not strike me as a strength.And I know or people point to the
two point five steals, which meanshe can play passing lanes. He's a
good off ball defender. My questionbecomes, Okay, he's a good offensive
player. Prevently type of archetype.He's good off the ball defensively, what

(48:28):
you make of his on ball defense, because as a six to three point
guard with a six three wing span, he doesn't it's not going to get
any easier for him. And atthe same time, as a point guard,
he's going to be guarding point ofattack by the fault a number of
possessions. What do you make ofhis on ball defense? You know,
I think that one thing that comesup a lot with Breechapper when you talk

(48:50):
to scouts is that they think thathe wants to be a good defender.
And I think that that is actuallyone of the most important traits to know
about prospect. I think that alot of players come into the n b
A and don't necessarily want to bea good defender. But I think when
you watch reach Epherd, you cantell that he clearly does want to be

(49:15):
good. I think that there's thatthere's uh some some elements of his game
that and some de elements of hisbill that doesn't necessarily allow him to be
a good defender. But at thesame time, like I think that defense
matters to this guy, and Ithink that he's somebody who can make a
defensive impact. And I think thatthe defensive numbers, you know, we're

(49:37):
we're, we're pretty good for someof his heights. So I would definitely,
uh not be terribly concerned about aboutreach Shepherd, And I think that
uh, you know, if Iif it came down to it, you
know, defense was the biggest liability. Uh there there there are players in
this class I'd be more concerned abouton the defensive end than read. All

(50:00):
right, So to transition beyond Reid, I want to ask you about other
options at three and guys who thinkthat are either good or bad fits.
And quite frankly with Reid, Ithink we can all agree that he's potentially
a very good fit here. Thatdoesn't mean that he's going to be the
pick. It doesn't mean they askto be the pick, But just in
terms of does he fit for thisroster construct where the Rockets are trying to

(50:22):
build their philosophies, I think allthree of us would say yes, beyond
Reid, I want to get atleast one guy that you think would fit
and one guy that you think wouldn't. And I'll actually start and this is
one where Palo and I disagree.I actually do think Klingon is potentially a
fit in Houston, not necessarily becauseof how he and Shingoon can or can't

(50:45):
play together. Of course, i'dlove for the three point shot to develop
the way some scouts think that itwill and give you that option down the
line. But even if it doesn't, there's so much value in today's NBA
where teams are getting bigger and bigger. You've got Gobert, You've got Nikola
jokicch it seems like you're seeing moreof these behemoths, especially in the Western

(51:06):
Conference, by the year that Ithink just being able to play a different
way, even if the presence ofShinggoon initially sort of caps him at what
twenty minutes per game, Other thana few matchups for you and I can
play dual big probably not in theplayoffs. I think there's just value in
having that optionality. Should also mentionthe Rockets have yet to extend all for
in Schoinggoon, so it's not onehundred percent lock that he's going to be

(51:28):
here for the next five ten years. I don't think you can say that
of any player amongst their young coreas promising as it looks. I don't
think anyone on the Rockets has currentlyconstructed, has proven enough to where you
would say one hundred percent this playeris going to be there for the upcoming
generation of Houston Rockets basketball. You'renot at that point yet or you have
to treat anyone as one hundred percent. So that's in the back of your

(51:49):
mind. But more than that,I think just the optionality to play two
different ways and to have that biggerbody to handle some of those difficult matchups,
there's value in that. And thenthe aspect of it for me,
I think Donovin Klingen is a guywho's extremely projectible. So even if the
best case scenario for Shingoon plays outin that he signs his next contract with

(52:10):
the Rockets, he continues to playlike an All Star, perhaps he gets
even better next year to where youfeel like a year from now, Okay,
all pre eension Goon is for suregoing to be our guy in the
middle, a thirty plus minutes pergame player for as long as his prime
last. Even in that best casescenario where everything works out financially in on
the basketball floor, for all pereension Goon, and let's say that Klingon

(52:31):
either doesn't develop a three point shotor Dapallo's concern earlier, maybe the foot
speed just isn't there to defend anyoneon the perimeter. Even if all those
things play out, then I thinkKlingon is a guy who is very projectible,
and so because of that, hewould always have good trade value down
the line in that even if he'sonly playing twenty minutes per game in Houston,

(52:52):
then I think it's potentially twenty valuableminutes for you. I don't think
you really consider Steven Adams, nowin his thirties on a one year deal.
I don't think he should really factorinto this equation. We're talking about
an asset like number three overall pickin the draft, and so even if
Klingon does in depth captain in termsof minutes, I think you could trade
him down the line and teams becausehe's very projectable. I think he's one
of the safer players in the draft. Then I think you could get pretty

(53:14):
good trade value for him down theline. So even if the role isn't
crystal clear for Donovan Klingen in Houston, I do actually like him as a
fit just because the optionality and Ithink the worst case scenario in terms of
they're not being you know, astarter's level role for him long term in
Houston, and I think that scenariowould work out as well as long as
Klingon develops as a player the wayI think at least Brian and I think

(53:38):
that he can't. So I thinkthat's someone beyond Shepherd that could be a
fit. One guy that I don'treally see is a fit, and it's
surprising to me that at least afew mocks I've seen putting him in Houston
is Rob Dillingham. I just thinkthat at one hundred and sixty four pounds,
I question the defense. Now.I know it's not that Reed is

(54:00):
that much bigger than him, buthe's a little bit bigger. He's certainly
thicker and also read as a movementshooter. He's a guy who can flourish
off ball as opposed to Dillingham.You have the limited size, the weight
concerns. He's on an impact defender, and then offensively, I get the
skill set and you know, ifyou squint hard enough, you can see
some Kyrie in him. But ona Houston team that already has so many

(54:22):
ball dominant guys, It's tough forme to see Dillingham getting enough touches to
unlock the best aspects of his game. So because of that, it's not
that I'm down on Rob Dillingham theprospect. I just don't really see the
fit for Dillingham in Houston. Sobeyond Reid, who I think we all
agree is a positive fit in Houstonif that materializes, Klingon is another guy

(54:45):
that I view as a good fit. Dillingham is an example of someone that
I view as a not so goodfit. Brian, when you're looking at
other guys potentially in play for three, what do you think as far as
guys that are good or bad fitsfor the Rockets? Sure, yeah,
I'll go with you say about clingingin that if you look at this Minnesota
team that is, you know,in the Western Conference, Castle, yeah,

(55:07):
yeah, And I think that Ithink that, you know, there's
so many great big men in theWestern Conference that Houston is gonna have to
match up against that any weapon youcan have to go up against that is
a good thing. So you outlineda lot of the reasons about the pairing
with sheng Gon, But but Ithink that ultimately, anything you can do
to try to throw a weapon atJokic try to throw a weapon and Anthony

(55:30):
Davis try to throw a weapon atyou know, the gauntlet of big men.
You know that that you're gonna haveto face in the West for the
foreseeable future. You can and shoulddo so. You know, Clingon is
an example of someone who I thinkwould fit. But I'll think to add
another name that we have not mentionedyet. Two names. I'll throw two
names, one one that does fit, one that doesn't. I would throw

(55:52):
Castle, Stefan Castle as a namethat I think could fit. If you
talk about guys who don't necessarily needto ball in their hands, that's so
that's one right there. I thinkthat he could potentially project as a Herb
Jones type in the NBA, andthat's not necessarily even the highest projection for
him. I think that Herb Jonesobviously just made a second team All defense.

(56:14):
The analytic the analytics that I havethat are kind of hard to come
by, but I'm lucky enough tohave say that. You know, Castle
gives up the fewest points for possessionof any single player in this draft class.
He I think is probably the mostelite defensive player at least perimeter defensive

(56:35):
player that that we have that's notin Clinton. Obviously, them playing together
kind of enhants as both of theirdefensive impact metrics. But you know,
I think that we saw Castle's roleas a freshman. Herb Jones, I
think, played four years in collegewhere he was already before he was ready
to contribute at an NBA level.We just saw Castle play one year,
and you know, who knows wherehe'll be by the time Herb Jones was

(57:00):
given turn in pro four years later. I think that he's somebody who I'm
probably higher on than I would definitelyconsider him a hies to. I think
that, you know, at theend of the day, like if he
has a Justice Winslow type of career, which is not a good thing,
I wouldn't necessarily be surprised either.But he's somebody who I would be comfortable

(57:22):
taking a swing on, especially fora team like Houston, because defense matters,
and I think that, you know, ultimately, defense is something that
every team could use, and Castlehas that. I think he clearly contributes
to winning and did last season,you know, his first season college basketball.
He want a championship, Like that'sthat's great stuff, and you need

(57:44):
that always, you know, seeplayers who can contribute that way. And
I think, you know, heviews himself as a potential point guard,
right even if he doesn't play pointguard in the NBA. I think he's
got some of those playmaking skills.And I think anytime you can add you
know, somebody who could potentially projectas an elite defensive player, you know
you should. And it's not likeHouston is incredibly rich on the defense end

(58:07):
of the floor right now, LikeI think they've got you know, some
some holes you know over there.I think that they finished probably in the
Mottom third in the league in defenselast season, if I remember correctly,
So you know, I think thatwell, I think they were top ten
overall, but they had stretches whereit was where it was ugly, and

(58:27):
there was regression towards the back halfof the year. Okay, so yeah,
they actually did end up in thetop ten for the season as a
whole. But yeah, it wasit was very hit or miss. They
came out of the gates incredibly strongand then for about the final two thirds
of the season March excluded, itwas a lot rougher. Got you I
was looking at cleaning the glass.I couldn't quite find where they were at

(58:49):
with points of processional a lot ondefense, but either way, and there
was also some different There were alsosome metrics that indicated they were a little
bit lucky. So even though Ithink they finished like seventh or eight in
defensive rating, I want to say, if you account for shot luck,
it's probably if you not just belowthat, so solid but not great by
any means. To your point,yeah, definitely. And you know,

(59:14):
anytime you could add a player who'sa potentially a leade defensive player, like
there's reason to do that. Itis kind of the ultimate point here.
So that being said, that's somebodywho i'd consider potential fit and then somebody
who would be probably more hesitant aboutthat. I think potentially has kind of

(59:35):
gotten some projections already, and wasmentioned Kelly Ego's article, would be Mataspizellas.
I know that people have questioned hismotor in the past. I know
that he's somebody who you know,has been in play the one pick at
some points this year before the seasonstarted more so, and then had some
good stretches a little bit when RonHolland went out. Ultimately, you know,

(01:00:00):
I think that he's somebody who isjust probably a little bit too much
of a of a project. Ithink that the ceiling is pretty high,
uh for for Mantas Bozellas. ButI think that, you know, there
are just some questions for me thatyou know, that that I'm not necessarily
sure I have the answer to.So I wouldn't be in a rush to

(01:00:23):
to to add him to to myroster if I'm Houston. Uh, And
I know that, you know,he's somebody who I think has been linked
to them a little bit and it'skind of been mocked in that range.
And I heard, you know,I think cally Ego reported that he interviewed
well with the Rockets, and that'sall fine and good, but uh,
it's just not not somebody that Iwould probably, uh, you know,

(01:00:44):
be rushing up. But over therea couple of guys that you didn't mention
and offering the question from a hopefulstandpoint, because I do think a like
Sar should be you know, prettyclearly the number one pick. But you've
shown an openness I think larger thanwhat I have to the possibility that,
you know, if if Washington takesa four general point guard which I could

(01:01:07):
see them doing, and a plantthat either trades back or doesn't have the
patience to go for a guy likeStar who's probably a project, even though
he can probably help your one,you know, not necessarily the same timeline
as what they have going on,at least willing willing enough to trade it.
Do you see any scenario where theRockets could end up with Czar,

(01:01:28):
because to me, he is ifit's two things that the Rockets really need
moving forward, which is a wayto deal with the Wembian kid types,
even though Star is obviously way behindthose two. But eventually you'd hope that
he could develop into the same typeof guy that you could, you know,
match up with them and secondly,basically built in a lab to play

(01:01:49):
with oburn Finger because the mobility,the mobility concerns aren't there as much as
you know most other reprotecting prospects indrafts, as you know, as far
back as you want to go inpast tracks. Do you think there's any
chance he falls to three or thatthe thing that's speaking at one is willing
to have you know, straight backto three. Yes, I would say

(01:02:15):
I would say yes to both questions. I think that I think that this
class is far from slidified with thedraft order. I think that that there's
a real possibility that that anyone that'sbeing projected in the top three could go
lower than the top three. Youknow, someone like Clinton comes up,
that means someone else to go down. You know, Let's say a team

(01:02:36):
you know falls in love with anyof these guys during the free draft process.
You know, that means someone elsehas fallen down a little bit.
So I think that Castle could jumpinto the top three as well. You
know, I think that you know, someone maybe feels that Zachary Rigichet is
too inconsistent, maybe he falls alittle bit. Maybe a team really does

(01:02:57):
believe, you know, the hypewith Mantras Bizillos, he jumps up.
Yes, I think that any numberof scenarios are still very much in play.
I don't think there's a perfect marriagefor any of these teams in the
top three. You know, obviously, the classic example we can give is,
you know, something like Wemby rightwhere to give the obvious, but
you know it's not. I thinkin previous seasons there have been fairly obvious

(01:03:19):
picks at two and three too,where it's like Okay, Wemby is the
obvious picket at one, but youknow, this team would obviously love this
player at three as well. Idon't think that any of these players are
a perfect fit for any of theteams drafting in the top five. You
know, I think that I thinkthat there's a lot of players who are
going to have consideration across the boardhere, I really do. I think

(01:03:43):
that, you know, there thereare some guys who could potentially jump up
to the top five that you know, are not being mocked there at all,
Like Salon in French in France.Rather, he's somebody who I think
is going to get a lot ofhype over these next few weeks especially,
is maybe the potential mystery man inthis class. He's played really really well
recently. What's up, I said, it's already started. I've seen some

(01:04:06):
of that. Yeah, I thinkthat he's that he's already getting some hype,
and I think that he's playing wellin France and you know, he's
making an impact on the playoffs overthere. Maybe there's a team who thinks
that Cody Williams, you know,could be like his brother, right,
And I think that, uh,there's a real chance that Cody Williams could
be in that range. I knowthat, you know, there are teams

(01:04:29):
that definitely like him as well.I think there are teams that don't like
him too, But it only takesone team to really like you. And
I think that, you know,there's a lot of guys in this range
that that could go up. AndI don't think that Star's resume or resume
or to resume, or any ofthese guys that we're talking about is strong

(01:04:50):
enough to be a surefire top threepick in this class or any class.
And that's not a knock on anyof them. I think it's just the
nature of who they are right nowis that they're not clear cut top three
picks. They're not, and thatdoesn't mean that they won't have clear cut
top three careers of this class.I think it fell said and done.

(01:05:15):
Maybe maybe they do, but butultimately I think that that this that that
you know, even a it's Sarwho is considered to be the consensus one
pick. He did not like theWorld on Fire Australia's NBL, which is,
you know, not as great ofthe league as the NBA. Like,
I don't think Star is going tocome in and and and you know,

(01:05:36):
be the Rookie of the Year favoriteeven necessarily even if he goes one.
So it all comes down to fit, you know how how teams want
to use these guys stuff like that. But you know, if the team
doesn't fall in love with sar atone like, I wouldn't be shocked.
I think if if they view,you know, Clinging or someone else as

(01:05:57):
a better fit for their roster,I wouldn't wouldn't be surprised at all.
Okay, first of all, Ihad no and maybe this is me being
ignorant. I have no idea thatCody Williams was Kevin Williams' brother. Yeah,
did you not? I don't appeal, but it's so easy to throw

(01:06:18):
out the Jalen Williams cop because it'sliterally its brother. Yeah. Sure,
he was a mcdonaland tall American,Whereas whereas Jalen was not, Cody,
Cody was actually the more highly toutedof the two. So he's a better
Jalen Williams. What you're telling us, and I'm not saying that, I
think you should say that allowness ofthe Wizards here in the in the Hawks,

(01:06:41):
well, I think I think he'sfrom Atlanta potentially, So it's something
to consider, and I think,yeah, so yeah, Cody Williams was
a McDonald's All American and he alsoplayed fortin US as nineteen roster as well,
so he uh had a bigger pedagree. Just so, I I'm going
to ask this of everybody that weinvite that is draft centered, just because

(01:07:03):
I don't understand. I don't understandwhy clil where is marked as low as
he is, even if there areeven if there are attitude concerns, motor
concerns, I just don't see howthe upside isn't tenptalizing enough for what,

(01:07:23):
especially in the draft that seems tobe weakish upside in upside swings, How
is he not being mocked in thetop ten. I don't get it.
Well, you're talking to a guyright now who went to Oregon, where
he transferred away from. So maybethat's the answer, right. Maybe it's
leaving the Ducks. I mean that'sfair enough, but if so much,

(01:07:45):
that's not the that's not the reasonat all. I I just have a
personal I have a personal connection therebecause I'm I'm an organ fan and an
organ alum. So anyone who leavesthe organ. How could you leave Eugene.
It's so beautiful. Listen, Ifif the Rockets are obviously not at
this stage, if they're rebuilt anymore, but some teams starting off they're rebuild,

(01:08:06):
is going to trade back and pickhim, and I think that they're
not going to regret it. That'sall I'm gonna say, because I mean,
I like the footwork, I likethe touch, I like the shooting
form, I like the size.I just you know, I see that
he is a bit lazy. Butstill man, guys that are that are
lazy have been bit much higher onmuch better drafts. And I don't know,

(01:08:30):
I just I had to. I'mgonna ben just the heads up.
I'm gonna do this in every singlebutt so you guys, but medadiosood I
can tell, I can tell.All right, So last question for me,
because I know we've been going onfor over an hour now, so
we'll try and wind this thing down. So there's been a few reports the
last couple of weeks of the Rocketspotentially being interested and this is going to

(01:08:55):
be on the twenty twenty four draftin trading some of the assets from Brooklyn
back to the Nets for picks fromPhoenix that they acquired in the Kevin Durant
trade that go a little bit furtherout. The picks that Houston owns from
Brooklyn go through twenty twenty seven.I believe the picks from Phoenix go through
either twenty twenty nine or twenty thirty, and I believe it's the same unprotected

(01:09:16):
first run picks or swaps alternating years. So people have been confused why the
Rockets would do this, especially withBrooklyn's outlook being very bad, at least
for the time being, being badnow. I know, being in New
York, all it takes is onestar to come available at the right moment,
and perhaps Brooklyn can make the climba lot quicker than we're anticipating it.

(01:09:39):
Right now. They're at thirty twoand fifteen without a star, So
there's a lot of there's a lotof hype here in Houston for what the
picks the next couple of years wouldbe. And one myth that I wanted
to spell the Rockets are not downon the next two draft classes. I've
heard that they're bullish on both ofthem, certainly being better than twenty twenty
four. I've heard they like twentytwenty five, and they really really like

(01:10:00):
twenty six, so I'm curiosure thoughton that. Just as far as how
the next few draft classes are stackingup, I know things can change.
Right now. I'm told the Rocketslike both of them, especially twenty twenty
six, So it's not so muchthat they're down on that, it's just,
look, those picks should be disproportionatelyvaluable to the Nets because of the
optionality. If the Nets get theirown picks back, then they have full

(01:10:20):
control over or at least some controlover the expected value of them, ie
the final number of that pick,because it's dictated by whether they win or
lose games and how they put theirroster together. So anytime that you have
a situation where one of your assetsshould be disproportionately valued by one team,

(01:10:41):
then sure you should explore if there'sa deal there where you get more value
by dealing with that team. Andthat's what this is. That goes back
to some of the mckail bridges' discussions, and I think it's the same concept
here. The other factor for theRockets. If you don't have the ability
to play one of these rookies,and it's difficult for the Rockets, for
the reasons we've been describing throughout thispodcast. With how full their rotation already

(01:11:03):
is, especially with young players,then the liquidity of that asset will take
a hit. If you have ayoung player who's not playing, who's not
developing. I know they can putthem in the G League temporarily, but
that's not a long term solution byany means. And so from Houston's perspective,
and they look at these as assetswere down the line, they think

(01:11:24):
they're going to be contending two orthree years from now. So it's about
potentially using this, if not fillinginternally, then externally using these picks or
the players that result from those picksas assets in a trade. Then if
you pick a young player and youdon't have a clear path for him to
play a lot of minutes initially,then the value of that could easily decline.

(01:11:45):
So from the Rocket standpoint, it'snot so much that they're down on
the next two draft classes, notat all. It's more look, if
you can extend that window out intothe late twenty twenties, even twenty thirty,
then there's just more liquidity to thatasset in terms of its value.
On the open market. I thinkthat's the way the Rockets are looking at

(01:12:05):
this, and that as soon asyou draft a player, in many ways,
it's like and I've made this analogyplenty of times, longtime listeners will
know exactly where I'm going, butit's like driving a new car off the
lot. A lot of that valueis going to instantly go away when the
pick is not abstract, when thepick does not represent flexibility, when the

(01:12:25):
pick is an actual player with strainsbut also with weaknesses. And now if
the player shows those strengths, ifthe player develops, then sure you can
recoup that value and then some downthe line. But if he doesn't,
then there's a lot of downside.There's not a lot of upsides. So
I think for the Rockets, thecalculus here is that. And I don't
think they would just do a straightswap of the Brooklyn picks for the Phoenix

(01:12:46):
picks, because I do think thatthe Brooklyn picks have a little more value
when you look at their outlook thenext couple of years, but conceptually,
at least to just see if something'sthere, I can understand why they're doing
it. It's not their down Thenext two draft line, they like them.
It's just if you can extend thatwindow out a little bit longer and
perhaps get a little bit of apremium, because those picks should be even

(01:13:09):
more valuable to the nets, thenit's worth at least making the phone call,
at least exploring. So as Iunderstand it, that's sort of the
behind the scenes thinking here, Brian, does that makes sense to you?
And then beyond that, what doyou think as far as the next few
draft classes? Is there any thatstand out as particularly strong or particularly weak?
Yeah? I know both of thenext two draft classes are particularly strong

(01:13:30):
at the top. I think thatit's hard to identify anything about the depth
of the class until we see who'sactually ann who materializes, et cetera.
I think that realistically, we don'tknow that until we see who actually ends
up declaring reach class. But youknow, both of the next two classes

(01:13:53):
have a lot of big names tothe top. You know, I think
they're pretty deep. You know,we'll see though, because like I think
the guys in this class who wereprojected really high heading into this year,
you know, did not end upmaterializing, right. I think a lot
of the guys that were you know, considered the best players were guys like
Isaia Collier and uh Dj Wagner andyou know, just got Justin Edwards.

(01:14:19):
And you know, it's it's notuncommon at all for a player to be
projected, you know, top fivebefore the season ended up having end up
having to go back to school.Uh that, that's not uncommon at all.
We see that every year. We'veseen that with guys that Rockets are
drafted, you know, Cam Whitmorewith somebody who was projected really really high
and I had to you know,slide to twenty. You know, these

(01:14:41):
things happened. So I'm not hugeon projecting the depth, but in terms
of the top heaviness, you know, both these guys, both these classes
have guys toward the top that I'dbe excited to have my roster. Talking
specifically about the Brooklyn and the Phoenixpicks, I would say that I would
definitely be short in the Suns ifI were. Uh yeah, I think

(01:15:04):
that one of the one of theassets I'd most like to have would be
future Suns picks. You know,that would be that'd be fun. Uh
So if I am Phoenix or ifI am Houston, and I can you
know, do what I can toget my hands on any picks from Phoenix
in the future. You know,even if they don't use the picks themselves,

(01:15:25):
like you said, you can potentiallythou trade that pick to something that's
better in the future. You know, that could be easily a top five
pick or at least a lottery pickmoving forward. So you know, top
five or a lottery pick or whateverit might be in a stronger draft class
or probably more trade value down theroad. And so yeah, if I

(01:15:45):
could, if I could get myhands on that, I definitely would.
And I guess it's a situation whereeven if they have, you know,
two superstars under contract. Now,look, Katie's thirty six years old,
who knows what happens there, andthen whether Katie age is out or eventually
leaves by some other means that thatpoint, all all that's between the Suns
and being really bad is one DevinBooker trade request, right, and at

(01:16:06):
some point the president is there thathe probably will if the Sons are a
bad team heading into his thirties.Yeah, I mean there's already with prison
of New York, and I thinkthat New York might not be a team
that would want him for for severalreasons. But you know, if we're
hearing the New York stuff now,that could grow into New York and Miami,
New York and Miami in Boston,New York and you know whatever,

(01:16:28):
the classic examples of trade destinations,the Lakers, whoever this that whatever,
you know, these things will comeup. And I could see that happening.
And you know, Katie's getting older, and you know we've seen what
a just a Bradley build team lookslike with the Wizards and top grade and
that it was would Bradley be thatis most effective? So yeah, I
think I think across the board,you know, the Suns are a team

(01:16:50):
I'm pretty low on moving forward,so you know the Sun's also though without
one. One note on that though, is if the Sons don't have control
of their picks, then there arecentivized to be very aggressive. Exactly,
They're not going to be They're notgoing to be bottoming out. They might
naturally just do the poor management bottomout, but you know they're they're not

(01:17:14):
going to They won't tank, Yeah, they won't tank. Obviously, the
nets weren't taken when the Celtics picks. When they when the Celtics, you
know, own their picks, andit's still worked out for the Celtics,
and then that's a lot tanking thisyear exactly when worked out for the Rockets
too. So you know, ultimatelyI think that the Sons, the Sun's
pick would be a pick that Iwould buy a out of Houston. I

(01:17:35):
would definitely be targeting mat if Icould her point one related question and then
I promise we'll close out. Sothe Suns are a team that I've been
eyeing as far as the very shortterm as a team the Rockets could conceivably
pass in the standings because as goodas we feel about the Rockets forty one
and forty one, you've got thisyoung core. Because the Rockets are so
young, they should have more upwardmobility in terms of year to year improvement

(01:17:58):
than many other teams in the West, simply because you can expect players on
the Rockets to grow more between thisseason and next relative to teams that are
more veteran layden. In fact,some of the veteran laden teams might actually
decline between this year and next basedon the usual Asian curves. Yet,
as we've said a few times inthe Pod, the Western Conference is insanely
hard. So you look at theRockets, you say, Okay, they're
forty one and forty one, andin a perfect world, yeah, they

(01:18:20):
take the Oklahoma City jump. That'sprobably far fetched in a Western Conference where
it's just so top heavy and there'sso much depth. But I do look
at a few of the older teams. Obviously the Suns are one, the
Warriors or another, maybe the Lakers, although Lebron has defied Father Time and
the Lakers actually are set up prettywell to potentially at a star in the
trademark. They finally do have somefirst round draft capital. So in terms

(01:18:44):
of the Rockets going from you know, a five hundred team where they are
this year to let's say, youknow, forty five and fifty forty five
to fifty onins next year, Ithink that would be the ideal scenario for
them and their upward trajectory. Sosome of that can sort of just happen
internally in terms of their players justgetting better, but you're also going to
need to see ideally some regression fromother teams in the West. Besides the

(01:19:06):
fact that ten teams are ahead ofthem already, you also have to consider
that you know, the Spurs shouldbe better with Wemby. The Grizzlies should
be back to at least somewhat normalwith a healthy John Morant for the full
season. Really, only Utah andPortland are teams that are, you know,
clearly at the bottom tier of theWest. Everyone else at least has
some reason to have a little bitof optimism, even Utah if they keep

(01:19:28):
marketing. They were good until theywent into full tank MO the last couple
of years. So in terms ofthe Rockets getting better, I mean,
they should be a better team justsimply based on the fact that young teams
improve. But in terms of actuallyclimbing up the West standings to get in
you know, ideally the play andrange or even the playoffs, what are
some teams ahead of them in thestandings now that conceivably if things break right

(01:19:51):
this summer, And in terms ofyou know, player development over the upcoming
months, do you see any teamsthat they could potentially like the Suns perhaps
jump I'm not sure how I fillout the Clippers long term, especially with
Paul George potentially leaving. Who knowswhat the Warriors end up looking like down

(01:20:12):
the road. You know, obviouslythat that Big Three could be done already.
I think those are probably the teamsthat I would that I would target,
beyond the ones that you've mentioned.Yeah, and of course that's as
the Rockets are currently constructed. Ifthey do something like the aforementioned Donovan Mitchell
trade, then all of a suddenthe calculus changes a little bit. But

(01:20:32):
as of now, we're going onthe roster the Rockets have as at this
third recording. But hey, don'tdon't count out. The Spurs is a
team to make the Leap pretty soon. Yeah, that one be jump is
coming in the stand in soon.Yeah. And well and Wenby is going
to be a draw to other tradetargets around the league, I assume.
Yeah, definitely players will want toplay with Wemby. Yeah, I've heard
that. I believe that that's real. All right, Well, great episode,

(01:20:56):
great insight, Brian, Thank youso much for the time. Your
Twitter slash handle is just at BrianKlberrowski. Correct. Yeah, and your
mocks are at for the when anytimeline for when your next monk is coming
out? I'll probably have one offto the early entry withdrawal deadline, which
should be next week next week.Perfect, we'll be looking for it all
right, folks. He's Brian Kolbrowski, as mentioned. You can follow him

(01:21:19):
on Twitter at Brian Klbrowski. Asfor myself and Powlo, you can follow
me at Bendubo's and Powlo at palloAl's NBA. And with that, we've
had a pre thrower show. SoI think we will wrap it right here.
For Brian and Powlo, I'm Ben. And if you want more from
the show beyond following us on Twitter. If you want more content from the

(01:21:39):
logger line as soon as it comesout, the best way to get that
is to subscribe to us Apple,Google, Spotify, subscribe, leave a
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and we get the benefit with yoursubscription and hopefully your happy review of
looking good to the sponsors and partnersthat help us produce this show, most
notably ST seven ninety flagship radio stationof the Rockets, Carbok Brewing where they

(01:22:02):
develop their beer Clutch City Lagger incollaboration with the Rockets, and USA Today's
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(01:22:23):
the links to those aforementioned partners.All right, that'll do it for today.
As always, we appreciate you somuch for listening, and please come
back soon for another new episode ofthe logger Line.

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