December 24, 2025 • 63 mins
Survivor's of Larry Ray's sex cult Felicia and Daniel discuss how they came to meet Larry, how he leveraged his memory and connections to craft an image of authority, how Larry gained control of their lives under the guise of helping them, when the manipulation elevated into sexual abuse and violence, and how they're doing now that Larry is going to jail for the harm he has caused.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or shoot us an email at trust memepod at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me, Trust trust me.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you
and never a live.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two angry women who've actually experienced it.
I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our
guests are Felicia Rosario and Daniel Levin, survivors of Larry
Ray and his Sarah Lawrence sex cult. So today we're
(00:51):
going to discuss how they came to meet the charismatic Larry,
the ways in which he leveraged his photographic memory and
government connections to craft a persona of ultimate authority, and
how he slowly gained control of their minds and their lives,
all under the guise of helping them.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
They'll tell us about how his manipulation escalated into sexual
abuse and ultimately horrific violence, how one night of being
alone led to Daniel finally leaving, and how they're both
doing now that Larry's finally going to prison for the
harm that he has caused.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thanks God, right, yeah, thank God by Larry. I wish
we could have talked to them for so much longer,
but I love this interview because we got to really
talk about how he sort of really started to take
control of their minds, which I feel like is such
an important part of the picture. Like it's not just
about yeah, the actual physical abuse, you know what I mean,
and the and.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Their minds are so what people historically think of as smart,
so I can't really show what can happen to anyone.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I mean, they are smart, I know, I just mean
like Harvard like traditionally, Yeah, yeah, they have the like
qualifications technically for what you would consider smart person totally.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, of course they're newses, but you know what
I mean, so a million people that have gotten into
culs but they just didn't go to Harvard, and then
people are like they're dumb whatever, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Go to Harvard, Am I dumb. Yeah, yeah, very stupid.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh thank you, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, before we dive in with them, Megan, kindly tell
me you're cultiest thing.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay, Well, it's definitely not good news, but probably a
lot of people have seen this in the news. The
actor from Dancing with Wolves, his name is Nathan Chasing Horrace.
He was arrested in his Las Vegas home. He had
five wives with him, some underage, and he's been running
a sex cult and essentially he's been using Native Americans
(02:44):
beliefs against them because he would go do spiritual ceremonies
and all these reservations across Canada and the US and
kind of be like, now I need to have sex
with someone. The story is very confusing and muddled, and
I think it's going to get more clear as more
stuff is released. But it sounds like he was having
sex with women are girls as young as thirteen, and
(03:05):
he had pills for his wives to kill themselves should
the police show up. So it looks like they narrowly
missed being part of a death cult because the police
got them Mountain time.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, I think, thank god. I mean, it just goes
to show that there's really no belief system that is
immune to the abuse of power, like any freakin religion,
any community like and I don't want to like, you know,
be a fearmonger or whatever, but it is kind of
everywhere and it can't exist in any community. And that's
(03:38):
why it's so important for us to, you know, be
mindful of group dynamics. Yeah, wherever there's.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
A good thing happening, somebody can twist it and make
it very bad.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I know. It just it's such a bummer when it's
like I mean, it's always a bummer. It's always a bummer.
But like when it's someone who's supposed to be like
a spiritual healers, you know, a spiritual leader of some kind. Yeah,
but again, always a bummer. And every scenario it like
it's always under the guise of helping people. I mean,
at least very very frequently, I should say. Yeah, it
(04:08):
makes me sad that there are so many of these
usually men not always out there.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeap, very unfortunate, just messing with people's beliefs too. Yeah, Oh,
I know, what about what about you? What's the cultiest
thing that happened to you?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Nothing CULTI has happened to me. This week because I've
been in an editing hole. But I am emerging from
the editing hole and welcome, Thank you. I was just
really interested in this story that you actually alerted me
to about how there was a retired NYPD detective who
was just sort of talking about how internet sleuths are dangerous,
(04:46):
and so there's this article about how here's a quote
from him, sleuths don't know the standards of proof that
police departments rely on. They may end up violating somebody's
rights when doing these private investigations and inevitably might compromise
courtroom testimony and presentation. And there are just a few
instances in the article describing people who actually are now
(05:08):
being prosecuted for unethical websleue behavior and also people who
are being sued for like pointing a finger at someone
for a crime that they fucking did not commit. Yeah,
so it's about the Idaho history teacher Rebecca Schofield who's
suing this TikToker for defamation. Good. There are like other
instances of this happening. And listen, like I know that
(05:31):
if a crime has been committed against you and the
police are not doing their job, or like the authorities
are just like not taking your case seriously. Like, I
totally understand the desire to get help from other people,
but there obviously are just people who take it too far,
people who make accusations without knowing what they're talking about,
just because things look a little funny. And as we know,
(05:51):
coincidences are not the same as actual evidence that would
hold up in court. So I just I appreciate that
there's some attention being called to it, even though of
course there are instances of it working.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I'm very curious to see what happens with this case.
I wonder what the punishment will be, since she's obviously
guilty and was really destroying this woman's life and saying,
I know you killed these kids.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Jesus. Oh so scary. I know. Well, speaking of scary things,
shall we let's do it?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
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Discounts not available in all states and situations. Welcome Felicia
(07:31):
Rosario and Daniel Levin to trust me. Thank you so
much for joining us today. First of all, you guys
have just been through so much, especially you Felicia. It's
very harrowing. Some of the footage that we have seen,
and I'm very grateful that you're even able to share
your story and be here with us today. Can you
guys kind of start us at the beginning. We can
go one at a time, just telling us what your
lives were like before you met Larry Ray. Can start
(07:54):
with you, Felicia.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Okay, my life before I met Larry. I was had
start in my internship, my residency in psychiatry at USC.
I had gone to Harvard on scholarship and studied biochemistry
and then took seven time off and went to medical
school at Columbia in New York.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Pretty sweet education you have going before Larry, Right, that's
very cool.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, what was like your trajectory? What were you hoping
life would turn out like before you met him?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Before I met him, I was planning to be a
forensic psychiatrist actually, so that was part of why I
went to USC in LA because it has one of
the best forensics training programs in the country. Yeah, and
I was planning to be a forensic psychiatrist to research,
work with the underserved, work with the disenfranchised. That was
(08:47):
a plan to give back to help as many people
as possible.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And Daniel. What was your life like before.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Larry substantially less admirable. I was at Sir Lwrens College.
I was eighteen years old. I also there on scholarship,
had just kind of barely gotten in and was happy
to just be figuring out who I was at eighteen.
You know, I was studying these like classic liberal arts
(09:15):
things like writing and poetry and philosophy and literature, and
like heaven.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The campus is just like these beautiful old buildings and
trees and.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was everything that I had kind
of envisioned college might be, like, yeah, the sort of
rolling hills and the big old stone buildings and friends.
You know, it was the first time that I was
going to a place where I was surrounded by people
who were like me. I grew up in a pretty
conservative area and so just starting to discover myself when
(09:48):
I met.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Larry Ray right, and you met him first, right, You
were kind of living in the apartment when Felicia arrived.
How did you first meet? First of all, Larry's daughter Talia,
and then how did you meet?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Sure, So in freshman year, I made friends with Santos,
Felicia's younger brother. He was my freshman year roommate and
kind of my first friend at Sara Lawrence. He started
dating Talia Ray and so you know, they had like
a college relationship. And everyone knew that Talia's dad was
(10:21):
this guy Larry, who had been unjustly, according to her, incarcerated.
He was this incredible intelligence agent. He had done all
these amazing things and had been at the center of
this conspiracy. She'd been separated from her sister. This was
kind of the story that Talia would tell over and over,
and that was like her life to get back together
(10:43):
with her dad, and going into sophomore year, Talia kind
of spearheaded all of us getting group housing, which at
Sarah Lawrence you can apply to all live in a
house together as a group, which gives you a better
shot at just getting better housing. So we got to
move into this kind of townhouse type situation rather than
(11:03):
being lumped into dorms with other people called Sloan and Woods.
There were eight of us, and we learned towards the
beginning of that year, our sophomore year, that Talia's dad
was getting out of prison, and she asked if he
could come and kind of crash while he got his
feet back under him, and it felt like it would
(11:25):
be kind of horrible to say no to that. After
her whole she'd been living in homeless shelters, all these things.
All she wanted was to be back with her dad,
and so we kind of passively let that happen. And
that's how Larry Ray came into my life.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And can you tell us about your first impression of him?
What do you seem like?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, I you know, for me, off the bat, he
mostly seemed really stressful, you know, to be honest, he
was just kind of like he would talk a lot
and really fast, and it just seemed like he took
up a lot of my friend's time and attention. First
sort of had Santos and Talia, Larry's daughter and Talia's
(12:06):
best friend Isabella, were sort of in his orbit, and
then later our friend Claudia, and they just seemed to
really glom onto him. And I was dating my first
girlfriend of you know, my life really and was socializing
and having fun and this just seemed like a lot
they were talking about, like truth and justice and like
fighting back against the powers that be, and it was
(12:27):
just like too much. So it's very happy to ignore that,
but I was ignoring what turned out to be a
lot more than just those conversations. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It's interesting because it seems like that initial transformation with
Santos and Isabella was what really drew everyone in, and
I understand that. Can you tell a little bit what
happened to their demeanor after spending time with him?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, it seemed like, you know, we're at Sarah Lawrence,
which is famously a very kind of liberal environment. It
felt like everyone had been pretty free spirited, but at
the same time was dealing with a lot of kind
of eighteen year old angst. You know, I knew that
Santos had the same kind of struggles that I did
(13:14):
as a young man, and it was pretty clear that
Isabella was struggling with some things that I would now
call like mental health issues. And suddenly they became a
lot more regimented. I would say. It felt like they
were kind of myopic, like single minded, and a lot
(13:38):
less fun noticeably so. But at the same time, they
were talking really regularly about how great Larry was, how
much he was helping them, how much the sort of
problems they'd been dealing with with themselves with their families
were kind of all getting cleared up. Everything was so
much better, and they seemed like school was going back
(14:00):
her for them. You know, it felt like there was
evidence that something was changing. It's just at the time
wasn't the change that I even really desired. I was
perfectly happy to not be doing great in school.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Right, And Isabella like seemed to have like a complete
transformation as a perclusive.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
At right and then dynamic.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, I think that she was at first what you
might it's a reductive phrase, but what you might call
like an emo girl, kind of you know, the person
you recognize their heirs always in front of their face.
She's kind of like pretty retreated into herself, maybe a
little like scathing, you know. And Talia was like her
(14:40):
first really close friend who seemed to really see her
and make her feel like a person. And there was
something that seemed kind of beautiful about that. And Larry
became an extension of Talia and then this kind of
father figure for her, and that was really evident, like
very quickly, and all of the sudden, it did seem
like Isabella kind of came out of her show. She
(15:01):
was like very confident and very outspoken, and you know,
had a big personality and all of this happened, all this.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Sid wow, so yeah, so that I would have been like,
signed me up.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, it just happened.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
What Sorcery, Oh he's helping he's helping all of these people.
Maybe he can help me.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And it showed like santost like kind of being in
the deck. That's so wonderful. I hope everybody sees it.
But like being hunched over and then his posture changes
and he's confident and and it just seems like, Wow,
I would want to talk to this person so badly.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, and pelics, Yeah, I would love to hear from you.
Since your siblings kind of knew him first, Like what
did you observe in them when they started spending time
with him.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I would echo what Dan said as far as my
brother goes, he was much brighter, happier, he was much
more confident, he had goals. He was a different person.
He was the person that I mean, he would say
he was the person that he was that he had
always wanted to be, like he had gotten he had
(16:03):
gotten to that place because before that he had struggled
significantly with mental illness, and I'd had a suicide attempt
and was. I had been recovering from that and recovered
well enough, you know, to go to college and go
to a great school, but you know, there were still
(16:24):
vestiges of you know, everything that led up to that, right,
and that was that went for all of us, including myself.
But after Santo started talking to Larry, he was just like,
oh my god, you know this is still great. Life
is awesome. I want to try all these things. Like
it was hard enough to get him to try like
a different kind of sandwich, right, want to do anything different.
(16:52):
And then my sister, like Santo's introduced my sister to Larry,
and she also was very similar. She had struggled to
with depression and anxiety, and Larry just like may like
it felt like he snapped his fingers and made life better.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the
story because the thing with colts and the thing with
abusers is that at first it's great. At first it works,
like whatever they're offering you is effective, like for whatever reason,
sometimes they're pulling from legitimate psychology or you know, and
(17:34):
sometimes they're just providing a sense of community or sense
of purpose, but whatever the reason, it's working. And that
is why people get drawn and they don't get drawn
in like seeing him abuse someone, like, that's not what happens.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Right, And what the technique he had with Daniel first?
I mean, Daniel, your story is just like we were
talking today. That's just like we feel sick to our stomachs.
You guys have been through yeah, so so much or
such beautiful people, it breaks our hearts. But Daniel, so
you were you were in college or struggling, You're like,
am I gay? Am I not gay? And he draws
(18:07):
this diagram for you and is like are you attracted
to men? And you're like not really, and he's like, great,
then you're not gay and he just takes it away
and suddenly you said you felt like a million pounds
were lifted off of your chest, Like what what did
that feel like?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Well?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think you know, we're all familiar with the feeling
of moving through life with no one definitively telling you
how anything works or what is true or false or
good or bad, how to be a good person, Like
we the idea of they're just being actually one person
who if you can imagine actually trusting them, like really
(18:42):
believing that they do know and then they just tell
you this is who you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Are and what your dream dream.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, it's awesome, you know. Yeah, And this is what
you're going to do with your life, and I'm going
to help you do it. It's going to be great,
you know. And just truly, if it's so hard to
imagine now because everyone seeing all the horrible things that happened,
but if it's possible to sort of rewind to that
moment and be like absolutely, if you actually believed that,
what an incredible relief. This is how people end up,
(19:11):
you know, living under fascism. But so, yeah, you know,
I felt anxiety about whether or not I was gay,
about my sexuality that I think probably the vast majority
of young men feel. I felt insecurity about my body
that I think is extraordinarily common, all of these things.
And he offered black and white answers, you know, definitive answers,
(19:35):
and it felt like, finally I can quell this anxiety
that I've been struggling with. Now. Of course, as things progressed,
having someone tell you some a simple answer that isn't
actually accurate to the more complicated reality, it doesn't really work.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I kept having these questions sort of crop up and
then those sort of my questioning, uh, pushed back against
Larry's control, and so I'd escalated into abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Well, I want to I want to talk about some
of the ways that he did begin to exert control
over you. Daniel, and then Felicia, let's start getting into
your story.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, when did it start to get bad? Because we
first it got sexual. Correct, So you guys are at
Sarah Lawrence. Then you then he gets an apartment in
the city, and that seems like it when it took
a turn for a little bit more extreme. So you
are you guys are now staying at the apartment in
New York City, And first he starts kind of narrowing
(20:38):
in on sex with you.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, and I can I can say, like, I so,
you know, I first move into this apartment because it's
in the simplest terms, it's just genuinely finding it so
difficult to find an apartment in New York City, right,
and was just like, you know, I was going to
Sarah Lawrence, which is just outside the city. It seems
like the thing that everyone all there, like cool kids
do is live in the city. What I didn't know
was they all had rich parents and I just can't
(21:05):
tell you that, so you know it. Genuinely, it felt
like I had missed a class on how to be
a person or something. And Larry kind of came in
and was like, I can I can kind of catch
you up, and I have this place that you can live,
and also your friends are like staying over and hanging
out there all the time, and you know, everything's cool,
(21:29):
so it's like fine, you know, I'll crash on his
couch until I figure it out. And Larry's introduced sex
into this environment, so I'm sleeping on his couch essentially,
is how I understand it. And for some context, I
had known that Isabella kind of had a crush on me.
(21:52):
Will you know, we were all living in this dorm.
I just wasn't particularly interested if he like sent her
out into the living room to perform oral sex on me.
And I have a distinct memory of feeling like frozen
(22:13):
and like time was signed down. I sort of didn't
understand what was happening, and like staying in this apartment,
I kind of feel like I owe them something, like
I don't want to cause trouble, and then what would
I do if I like can't continue to stay there?
I don't have anywhere else to go. And so that
was just like the smallest first step into what escalated
(22:35):
into kind of Larry claiming to give me like a
sexual education because I was had hang ups or was
too like prude or needed to kind of like get
out of my shell. And you know, it became very
controlling and coercive and non consensual. Yeah, from top to bottom.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's God, it's so terrible. What were some of those
ways that you can see now that were him like
slowly getting control over you? Like, can you talk about
like isolating you from other people or in the late
night integrations, Like, I'm just curious about that process because
(23:17):
it does happen slowly. How does it get to the
point that it got to?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So for me, you go from like you're hanging out
with your friends in college and sometimes you're having like
all nighters, or you're staying up until like sunrise and
this kind of thing. And now I'm in this environment
where we're staying up until sunrise, but we're talking instead
of just like hanging out and making jokes, we're talking
about like how to be a good person. And my
(23:42):
friend's fifty five year old dad is there and he's
kind of running the show. And then that shifts to
being like these conversations will be really focused on one
person and their relationship to their memories and their childhood
and what happened with their parents and you know, how
they behave and all these things. The mechanism here for
(24:07):
the more intense abuse I think is basically shame. You know,
he made me feel like he said to me, you're
not gay, you know, you're a man, and then it
was like up to me to prove it by going
along with what he was the context he was creating,
(24:31):
the circumstances he was putting me in. So you know,
it was like, if you want to continue to prove
that you're the type of man that I've said you are,
and you're straight and you're all these things, you will
follow my lead.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So he first establishes himself as like an authority on
like everything. Basically he is the wise god literally everything. Marines.
So he was in the Marines, but he said he
was like this.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I thought he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Oh he was.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
He was in the Marines for like what was it
like nineteen days? Yeah, yeah, just his whole idea.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yea, I didn't realize I mean technically true, but yeah,
but that but like he's you know, painting himself as
someone who has been a part of very high level
government operations and he's experienced a lot and he's been
through a lot, so he has all this wisdom and
(25:23):
I'm assuming he actually did do some reading on things,
because he seemed to know about things, which maybe you
can speak to Felicia. But so like he's establishing like
I'm the authority, I know about everything. You're all young.
I know what to do, I know what the answers are.
And then he's creating these goalposts for you because he
has all this wisdom and he knows what's best for you,
(25:45):
for you to live up to that continuously move right.
It's like, oh, you're not good enough, I'm going to
tell you how to be good enough. But then that of.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Course again, yeah, he was very well read or is
again he is very well ready, He's very educated on
many topics.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Can carry on a conversation with anyone with just about
but just about anything. M hm. And and it's true,
I mean he would he would challenge us and be
like take a book off of the shelf, like don't
tell me what it is, go to a page like
and like read like three words to me, and then
(26:29):
I'll tell you the rest of it, Like I'll read
you the whole paragraph.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Whoa, And he actually had his he.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I mean he did it all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Did he just have a photograph photograph memory?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yes, he's very smart.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So he's very good that he knows a lot. And
then he can talk his way around what he does
anybody what he doesn't know exactly. And then he did.
He did know some people. He he did know people
in the government, he knew chief of Police, chief of
police former and New York City detectives dagents, Like he
(27:09):
knew all these people. Yeah, and I met them and
they were They're like, Hi, I'm Larry's friend, right, you know,
how did he.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Know all of these people? How did this happen? Do
we know?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I think that the way that he operated for many
years is kind of this classic con man thing where
he was just leveraging one connection after another to just
kind of leap frog up. So it'd be like, you know,
he has someone he knew from childhood, he uses them
to get connected to someone who's a little bit more powerful,
and then he meets someone else and he claims he
(27:43):
knows this person, and he just sort of bouncing back
and forth. And I think that a lot of a
lot of how you can understand Larry is that most
of us have all kinds of other goals for our
lives and things that we care about and that take
up our attention and time. If you're just like single
minded and all you care about is kind of trying
(28:05):
to achieve status for its own sake or power for
its own sake, you can you can get a long way.
There's a natural cadence to conversation, and I think we
all know the feeling of like waiting for a natural
pause when you can interject. And I think that if
you just imagine feeling that feeling for years, that's what
(28:26):
it was, like, My God, to you, Larry Way, just
someone who is so capable of ignoring all of the
etiquette that we've all learned our whole lives and just
never stops.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
The anxiety that that creates in me.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
There's one of one hundred and twenty milligrams of adderall sometimes,
so wow, combining all of that shit together and you've got.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, when you have us focused as.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Actually slower, he was slow slower on our home when
he had his one hundred and twenty miligrams. You didn't
want to talk to him before if he didn't have
his adderall. I was like, oh my god, you didn't
dig your adderall?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Whoa?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Here was this what you were texting me about? Saying
the energy that this man had?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yes, it was like how like I complete one task
a day and I'm like, I did it, and this
man is just like moving trees and like buildings and
like the smartest people I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Are like, yeah, I'm just like, whoa, I can't.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I don't understand why sociopaths have so much energy.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's can they give us some of it? Please?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And yet at the same time, he got nothing done.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Exactly right right?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
They Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
She never finished anything. He was never on time, like
he could just he could not get it together. It's
true the time No.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Wow, Well why do you need a driver's license when
you have you know people you're abusing?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Who do first?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah? So, Felicia, can you tell us about how you
first met him? How did how did then it all start?
Speaker 4 (30:09):
So? I met Larry through my sister and my brother.
I think that he had them, you know, engineer this
this dinner. So I came home from Los Angeles to
visit and my brother was like, oh, we have to
go out to dinner with Larry, Like you have to
(30:29):
meet my friend Larry. And I was like, okay, sure's
still meet Larry. So it was the three of us
and Larry. We went out to an Italian restaurant and
he was just he was really just cheerful, really nice,
(30:50):
charming kind uh not not like how he ended up
being obviously right, he was. He seemed great and he
was really smart. He he could keep up like conversations
with me about you know, all my medicine, my psychiatry,
(31:12):
any everything, you know, everything that I knew about. So
I it was, I was, it was cool. I was like,
you know, he's he's you know, I like him. He's
he's good. And my brother really likes him. My sister
is a fan. Then he took me back, he took us, well,
(31:36):
all of us. We went back to the apartment and
we talked to him. We talked for for a really
long time. It was like till two in the morning
or something. We stayed up talking and he played some
songs for me. He was really into this music ah
music therapy. So he you know, he had learned about
(32:01):
our family dynamics from talking to Santos and my sister
really za, so he knew, you know, the thing, what
had been going on with my parents and my relationship
with my parents already. So he plays these really sad
songs about like father daughter relationships and it's like all
(32:21):
of this Tori Amos, and I'm just like, oh my god.
So I'm like and I mean, it's beautiful music and
it's it's very emotional, right, So I ends up crying.
But the story that comes out of that is not
about the music, is that he ends up saying afterwards
that I confessed to him that my family was out
(32:46):
to get him, was working with Bernard Carrick, kill him and.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Tell yeah, And he went to jail before, and Bernard
was a part of that, correct, So in two thousand
and three, Larry went to jail. Bernard was part of
this conspiracy which was actually just a normal person should
go to jail for this. So so he's saying, yes,
you told me that Bernard your family's working with him,
and and right, okay, okay, got it.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
So then I was so then this is where this
is where the poisoning plot starts, where he starts.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
Damn yeah, first night.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Yeah, so he he's he already singles me out as
like the good one because I'm the one that came
and told him and like uncovered the plot and then
everyone else turns into poisoners like you know, years down
the line. But it's you know, he he started, he
had this in his mind very early on, that there
(33:46):
was some kind of the conspiracy theory against him, and
then he leveraged he leveraged that and everything else. He
made my sister and my brother believe against me, against
me and my parents.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Do you think he believed any of this or is
he just messing with you guys.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Just shaking her head? No?
Speaker 4 (34:09):
No, yes, sorry video. Yeah, No, I don't. I don't
think he believed it. There were so many times when
he's he has a great poker face, so he can
tell you things and it sounds like he believe it's true.
But but I've seen him do it to me. Even
(34:31):
he'll like he'll tell me something, He's like, I was
just kidding, Like you believed me. I was like, yes,
I believed you. So no, I don't think he believed it.
It's because it was absolutely there was there was no basis,
there was no foundation, and he clearly had his own agenda.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
The question about whether he believed what he said, I
think is really interesting. And also the reason that I
didn't leave for a really long time was because I
thought that I could figure out an answer to what
was going on in Larry's head and whether he believed
it or not, or whether this even if he didn't
(35:12):
believe what he was saying, it was part of a
program to help us, like he claimed all these things,
and it just turned out at a certain point that
that maze is doesn't have an exit on purpose. Yeah,
you know, it's like intended to be that absurd and
not navigable, and so the only answer just becomes like
(35:34):
I don't deserve to be hurt this way, and can
just stop it, you.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Know, right?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And how you stopped it as one of my favorite stories.
We have to get to that because it's so fascinating
and what we see a lot. Can we talk about
when you went back to Los Angeles Because you were
going to go back to Los Angeles, your life was
going to continue as normal, but you started being followed
Is that so correct?
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Yeah? So I went back to al like because I
was only here for a few days to visit my family,
and then I was then I had to go back
to work. I was Was I still on psychiatry, Yeah,
I was still in my psychiatry rotations. So I go
back to Los Angeles. I start Larry starts calling me
(36:24):
like all the time, mostly with the pretext of talking
about how Santos is doing, how my sister is doing.
Because I'm I'm the eldest and my parents worked a lot,
so I was effectively like the third parent, so I
(36:46):
you know, so I I I was really the person
that was there for my siblings, for both of them
as while we were growing up. So Larry so naturally
and I and I had a very good relationship with
both of them. So when Larry wanted to talk about
something that was going on with either of them that
(37:08):
he would talk to like a mom about, he would
talk to me, and so so that was the pretext,
and then then we got to talking about other things.
He was very interested in my work. I love my job,
so I was happy to talk about work, and then
and then it got to be I mean, then then
(37:30):
he he got you know, he got romantic and then
he started saying I love you. It took maybe like
two or three months and he started telling me I
love you. But he'd I Now, I don't know if
I was being.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Followed or not experience about but.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I think I don't think I actually was. I think
he got me so paranoid that I believed that I
was being followed, that I believed that people were going
to come after me. That I I mean, and he
would he planted it like we're not planted. He said
it constantly. Well, you know, because you're talking to me
(38:09):
like Kark's going to be looking for you. I was like,
what are you talking about? What does that have to
do with anything? And then it just he he just
he persisted and he just made this story. And sorry,
(38:29):
this is hard. It's hard to talk about, but because
it's just so much, you know, he he It didn't
take long for him to just make me paranoid or
be or he was paranoid himself. He was worried about
me seeing other people. He was worried about me, who
(38:52):
I was having sex with, who I was going out with,
just like everything that like a controlling like significant other
does like that's what he did. But it was like
long distance, and it was he was just he was
so determined, Like he's so good at controlling and like
(39:16):
manipulating people, really like really like getting to your vulnerabilities
and fears and weaknesses. That like he was in my
head and it was and there was very little I
could do to to fight back up until September of
(39:38):
twenty twelve when he broke me and I was like, Okay,
you're broken, now you need to come to New York.
And I had no I had not no choice but
to come back and leave my job, you know, without
any notice.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
So how how long were these conversations that he was
having with you?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Hours?
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Yeah, there were there were, because I mean I worked
during the day, as you know, as and as a
resident or as an intern. It's I'm working at least
twelve hours a day.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
My weekends is like free time.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
It would be like all all a whole Saturday from
like morning tonight, and we would be on the phone
all day, wow, all day and he would just be
asking me questions or berating me. I mean it just
went all sorts of ways. And then I could just
never get off the phone.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
Somehow yeah, and then somehow he was still doing everything
else in the apartment at the same time while he
was talking to me, and just it was so crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Right, It's like there were five yeah, oh yeah, like
he was everywhere all at once. Yeah. I just want
to comment on the fact that, like, you know, this
isn't like you're having an hour conversation and he's in
your head, like he is taking up all of your
free time and hijacking all of your ability to think
(41:05):
for yourself because you have literally, even though you're not
with him, you have no time alone. And that is
that is the classic way that people indoctrinate people over
time is you just do not even give them a
chance to start to think critically at all.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Busy busy, So you're like, I have to go back
to New York. Someone's following me. I'm terrified, Daniel. Were
you still at the apartment at this time or had
you left yet?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
It was yeah, we overlapped at the apartment for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
And what was it like at that point? What had
it started to become more chaotic? Had all this shit
started to come moving in because he was just like
compounding stuff in this apartment, and yeah, what was the
vibe there?
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah, the way I think of it now is if
he started to make the interior of the apartment and
all of us like reflections of the inside of his
own brain. So it became it was like hell was there.
Like it was just pile high with it was like
(42:08):
there were ten apartments in one apartment, you know, just
like so many boxes of random things and appliances and
tools and supplies. And then he'd bring in heavy duty
woodworking equipment, you know, a band saw that weighed I
think eight hundred pounds, like all these things. I don't
even know how he got them into this apartment. So, yes,
(42:31):
it was highly chaotic. By then you had people. At first,
you know, Santos was going back to his parents at night,
but then by then was he was sleeping over a
bond was sleeping over I was, you know. So there's
just like people sleeping on the floor trying to just
sort of make space around like paint cans. It was
(42:54):
totally out of control and not good for feeling sane.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
But what did he that all this stuff was in
there for.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Well, he claimed that the reason it was so chaotic
was that we were failing to organize the space, and
that if he had an hour, he would fix everything,
but he had to let us figure out how to
do it or how to sort of better ourselves, and
that there was room for everything if you just figured
(43:23):
out how to organize it.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
It makes me want to scream. It makes me want
to scream.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, everything is your fault. That's that's just the class
every no matter what it is, your you are the problem.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I could fix it so easily. Yeah, but why
can't you?
Speaker 4 (43:37):
Yeah, but I'm going to make it a teaching lesson
and let you. I'm gonna let you do it just
so you learn.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I'm not going to do it, Daniel. Can you talk
about the process, like how it began to actually turn violent?
Speaker 4 (43:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
So, I think as is classic with the sort of
group coerceive control situations. There was a kind of hierarchy
that emerged, but that hierarchy was always shifting. Larry was
always at the top, but who was at the very
bottom would cycle, so it would be someone was the
scapegoat for everything. It was one person's fault that the
(44:14):
apartment was in chaos because they had been sabotaging Larry
and sabotaging everyone else's progress. You never wanted to be
that person, so you would do everything you could to
be good, And there was this feeling that everyone had
to be careful because someone else would tell Larry that
you had said something wrong or done something wrong. I
don't know how often that actually happened, but that was
(44:35):
the feeling. So there came a point when I, you know,
it had been in and out, but at a certain
point I was very much on the bottom, and it
just happened that for whatever reason, I think that Larry
was experimenting with how far he could push it with
(44:56):
me at first, or something. He had been really extreme
with everyone, So it's hard to say for me, but
it became about both escapegoating me for things that had
gone wrong. He claimed I had sabotaged his daughter's application
to law school, among other things. But also it became
(45:20):
about my sexuality in a pretty intense way, and about
kind of fixing me, and everything just sort of compounded
all at once, So in my memory, it just was
like one thing after another, getting more and more extreme
until I left.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So can you describe for us how the cracks began
to emerge in your brain and ultimately led to you leaving.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
So I first was starting to kind of doubt Larry
a little bit, and in simple ways that now in
retrospect feels silly, like he was obsessed with creating these
websites and that he was going to own all these
domain names and make all these websites and they were
going to make a lot of money. It just happens
that my dad's business, my whole life is designing websites.
(46:10):
So I knew. I was just like, these are bad websites.
These are the kind of websites that you land on
when you miss type Google, right, you know, and these don't.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
It's a claim that he was making like millions of dollars,
and I just was like, there's no way that that's true.
And then once you start to question little like one thing,
it's like, well, if that's not true, then either he's
lying about it or he doesn't know, and either way
something is wrong. And then you start to wonder, you know,
(46:43):
what is he doing in the bedroom for all those
hours with Isabella, or like, you know, all these things,
And so that combined, I think that he could tell
that I was doubting. He started like showing me photos
of him with Gorbacheaw or a photo of him with
George H. Bush. He had a friend of his from
childhood get on the phone with me and tell me
(47:05):
about how amazing Larry was as a young man. All
these things, so it felt like he was trying to
prove something to me, but as I was still kind
of not getting with the program, he was escalating the
physical violence. So, you know, towards the end, he there
was a night that he made what he called a
(47:27):
garat out of saran wrap and aluminum foil and like
wrap that around my groin and was tightening it in
front of my friends, trying to get me to admit
to some sabotage. There was the night that he, you know,
put me in a dress and made me like try
(47:49):
to swallow a dildo like and say that I wasn't
gay anymore. All these things, And so there was one
day that for some reason I was up and no
one else was and or people were out of the apartment,
and I went up to the roof of this building.
This is on the upper East side of Manhattan. It's
like the forty five story building, I think, and I
(48:10):
don't really know it was just sort of an impulse.
I went up to the roof and then as it
saw a ladder And this is also pre Larry, a
person who likes climbing up and finding high blazes. You're
a cat, yeah, I'm a cat. Yeah. And so you know,
I climbed this ladder and it was like, oh, this
is kind of cool, like I'm getting up on this
(48:31):
highest building in this area. And then there's a water tower.
I got to the top of the water tower. And
something that Larry had claimed the entire time that I
knew him was that we were all suicidal, whether we
kind of knew it or not, that it was an
impulse we couldn't control, like a switch in our brain,
and it could happen kind of any time, and his help,
(48:51):
the whole point of his help was that he was
protecting us from ourselves, and that if we weren't careful,
or that if we got away from him, we would
impulsively like step onto the train tracks or something like that,
and he would play it on that feeling. You know,
I think we all get that sort of call of
the void where you like you're holding your keys and
(49:11):
you kind of want to drop them down, like a grate.
He just kind of was like, you know that feeling
like that's weird you. No one else has that, just you,
And he claimed that if one of us did it,
we would all do it. So I was up there
on this water tower and was like, if I really
wanted to kill myself, you know, I'm four hundred and
fifty feet in the air, I'm on the edge of
(49:34):
this thing, I could absolutely, very easily do it. And
I was like, do I want to honestly given everything else,
and I didn't. I was like, I don't want to die,
and I and that's it's not true. And so if
that fundamentally isn't true, and it's at the heart of
everything he's cleaned this whole time, then a lot of
other things must not be true. And either way, I'm
(49:56):
being harmed and it feels dangerous and I don't want
to I feel like it's going to get worse and
I want to live. And so I felt like I
had to just try and figure out a way to
get away without him following me, and so that became
a whole other pursuit.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
It's just so interesting that you just needed like a
couple hours by yourself to get your brain back. That's
how busy I've and exhausted and everything I feel like.
I mean, yeah, definitely interesting that he would be in
your head so often and then you got away for
a minute, got out.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Let me see that. A lot, a lot of stories
began with just like a little bit of alone time.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
The pandemic made a lot of people leave the cult
I was raised in because they weren't programmed every five seconds.
So anyway, very interesting. So you're yeah, he's you're back
in the real world, you go back to school, whileas Felicia,
your life is just beginning to ramp up into madness.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yes, yeah, talk about that time and how he had
sort of hijacked your brain essentially. At that point, he
seemed like such an so skilled at convincing people they
were crazy that there was something wrong with them, you know,
because yeah, tell us about that.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Yeah, so it started. It started before I came back here,
you know, before I came back to New York in
September of twenty twelve. And within the month we went on,
he had me drive him to Washington, d C. To
meet his friend, who actually was a marine, a lieutenant
(51:40):
general in the Marine Corps. Retired.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
He had to do that too. I didn't realize that
you were.
Speaker 5 (51:47):
Ya same friend I did. Wow, huh same same guy.
Speaker 4 (51:52):
But yeah, Larry, yeah, yeah, same guy, yeng nuy. Yeah.
He was awesome. The guy was awesome.
Speaker 5 (51:58):
Not Larry, yes, no, of course, but so I.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
He he he yells at me and gaslights me the
whole way down and he has me meet, you know,
and we get there and then we meet his we
meet some more law enforcement friends and he's like, this
is he. This person's from the DA, the Navy, CEL, FBI,
(52:26):
all of these, you know, branches of government. He's like,
you know, if anything ever happened to me there, they
would they would come after you. If you ever did
anything to me, they would come after you. And he
got on me for like a whole other day and
he made me suicidal. Like the next at night when
(52:48):
we went to sleep, I got up and I went
and bought a bunch of child all and took it.
I took it and I found a river and I
was trying to I'm not going to be too detailed,
but the point was I did have Unfortunately I did
end up taking the title in all, but I did
(53:10):
have my moment of wait a minute, I don't want
to die, and I got out. I clawed myself back
to the street. The police found me and then they
took me to the hospital, but then Larry got to
the hospital and he hijacked the whole hospital visit. He
told the doctors that I was tried to kill myself
(53:31):
because of my mother, and like made all of this
stuff up and then had me taken out against medical
advice and then used and then used that as leverage
over me, saying like you'll never be a doctor again.
Who's ever going to hire a doctor who trying to
(53:52):
commit suicide? And then you know, like Daniel was saying
about the scapegoat since he couldn't get me to do
what he wanted all the time, because he was really
he was trying to groom all of us and to
have this sexual grooming, and I didn't cooperate. I ended
(54:14):
up the scapegoat, especially after Daniel was gone, so he
would he would beat me, he would starve me. I
spent a week in Pinehurst out on the porch. He
left me out on the porch without food or water,
with like a blanket, and I wasn't allowed to leave
(54:35):
the property, otherwise he was gonna call the police. Oh
my gosh, she would punch me in the face like
he would like regularly. It just it went on. It
was just it went on and on. Like almost anything
you could do to somebody he did to me.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
And there is a footage of some of this stuff
which is just fucking horrible to see. I'm also glad
it exists for court for the case so that he
cannot continue to gaslight people. I'm so glad, But but
what an idiot, What a dumb move on his part
filming all of his abuse.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
No, I mean, and he swore he was, He swore
it was gonna he was going to be vindicated with
all of this foot is.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
He was like, no, I'm good brilling how crazy.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
Everyone was towards me, and how badly behaved everyone was
towards me, and everyone's going to go to jail because
they hurt me. Ultimately, he would say.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Ultimately, do you think that this was about sex for him?
Because he did. He ended up stealing so much money
from all of your parents, turning all of you again,
like he told you of Felicia, that your your siblings
were poisoning you. And he really tried to separate you
from your families. So I just wanted to know, do
you guys know like a motive or do you know
what the hell was he doing?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Power I mean, I don't know if you want me to, Daniel,
I don't think there's a really good answer for this.
The way that I thought about it is, however you
want to think about, like what he believed or what
he thought was true or wasn't whatever. He's clearly like
a sick person, and I think that I think of
it as someone who whose sickness was contagious and he
(56:14):
just like needed to figure out a way to make
us psychotic like he was, to make us delusional like
he was. But I don't know, you know, it seemed
like someone who was incapable of surviving in regular society
and who was trying to like force his way into
a version of survival, and who seemed to derive some
kind of pleasure or satisfaction from torturing other people.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
I just would love to hear how you guys are
doing now now seeing that he is actually being prosecuted
and you're you're sharing your story, like, how are you please?
Speaker 4 (56:48):
Yah? Okay, I'm doing I'm so happy, really, that happy
as the word elated. He was just sentence January twentieth,
sixty years in prison, he's sixty three, so they could
get out at one hundred and twenty three years old,
(57:11):
effectively life and supervised release. So I mean, I'm just
so glad the justice system worked and the judge really
nailed it. He really he was really able to see
the truth and and you know, stand by it, and
(57:33):
I felt so validated.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
I'm so glad we get we get to be in
the very small group of people who can say that
they put their abuse or in prison, and a very
small group of people who get to say that they
put their cult leader in prison. And that's it's unbelievable,
and I hope that more people get to say that.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I know, oh my god too. But I'm so I'm
so happy that just this is actually being served. You
guys deserve it so much for what you've been through,
and I yeah, I once again, I very much, we
very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
What do you feel about Isabella being prosecuted, Talia being prosecuted?
What what is your feelings on that you don't have.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
To do.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
You don't know.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Do you want to go?
Speaker 4 (58:26):
Sure, I'll go, I'll go. I think with you know,
with Isabella, she was his first victim, and you know,
she he he had He got her in a very
vulnerable time and she was so young, and then she
didn't know anything but Larry of life, like the only
(58:50):
life she ever knew was Larry. So I understood why
she went the way that she did. I just I
hope that I hope that as time passes and you know,
she sees the series and sees, you know, how everyone
else is doing that, she starts to make better choices
for herself. Yeah, but I think you know, what Larry
(59:13):
made her do is like is a prison sentence in
and of itself, like having to live with that. Yeah,
and then Talia, I don't, I don't really know. With Talia,
I think she was just so unfortunate to be born
to him that you know, what, what did what choice?
You know, we're talking about choice, like what choice did
(59:34):
she really have? And you know, fighting back against her dad.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
So it's an incredibly arthetic perspective to take. Yeah, yeah, wow, Okay,
do you so the series is Stolen Youth inside the Cult,
It's Sarah Lawrence on Hulu. And do you guys have
anything of your own that you'd like to share in
terms of like social media or any work that you
do or anything. Daniel, go ahead, Daniel. You do poetry, Yeah,
(01:00:00):
I do.
Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Yeah. I have a memoir that I had written about
this called the London Woods nine, which is a reference
to the dorm that we lived in or where I
first met Larry. I don't really have anything to share
as far our social media. I'm teaching a class with
Stanford's Continuing Education Program on converting your most difficult memories
(01:00:27):
into uh memoir class top before. I find narrative really helpful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Totally, that's awesome and anything.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
So I'm just working and trying to get back into
life right now.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Okay, wonderful.
Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
Next time I'll let you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Know that's a that's a great place to be get
back to life. Thank you guys so much for talking
to us today. Thank you, and have good rest of
your day. O. Hey, Megan, so obviously so much more.
I wish we could have asked them, but for now,
I'm just gonna ask you a question, okay, And the
question is do you think that if you were at
Sarah Lawrence and you met Larry Ray that you would
(01:01:12):
have joined his group.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Oh my god, yes, goodbye forever. I would have been
so deep and getting attention from a grown up. Yeah,
especially one that's so wise. And I love slumber parties.
I love when everybody puts little palettes on the floor
and sleeps together. To just live that way would have
been heavenly. I would have loved the community. I would
(01:01:35):
have loved his like we're getting up at six and
doing push ups together, and I would have just been
sucked into getting my shit together. Uh forever.
Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
You know, it sounds like you should join the military.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
I've been thinking about it. Can you imagine.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Sleepovers every night, lots of structure.
Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Laurene men yelling at me. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely
would join. I think you would too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Huh oh, yeah, I think so for sure. I think
like I have a I have a like I would say,
I don't know what adjective to use. I have an
inordinate respect for authority that I really like. I have
been like I am the kid who is terrified of
getting in trouble with the teacher. But not only terrified
(01:02:27):
of getting in trouble with the teacher, but I will
try so hard to make them like me, you know,
like I want the authority figure to like me. And
if a man were to come along at that vulnerable
time in my life and be like, here's what you
gotta do. I know these government people, here's my photo
with real politician like I would be. I would be in.
(01:02:48):
I would be sold, especially because I don't know, like whatever.
I have a history of being drawn to men with
authoritative tones in their voice. And yeah, it would not
have been good for me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Yeah, I would have been I would have been super
fox with him.
Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Yeah, well, thank god he can't keep doing this to people.
Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Now put him away. Well, thank you for being here
with us for another week of trust Me. We can't
wait to see you again next time, and as always,
remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Flags, and ever ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me
as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song
was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us
on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me
Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I'm ula Lola on Instagram, and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or shoot us an email at trust memepod at gmail
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me, Trust trust me.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person. I've never lived to you
and never a live.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
don't welcome to Trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two angry women who've actually experienced it.
I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today our
guests are Felicia Rosario and Daniel Levin, survivors of Larry
Ray and his Sarah Lawrence sex cult. So today we're
(00:51):
going to discuss how they came to meet the charismatic Larry,
the ways in which he leveraged his photographic memory and
government connections to craft a persona of ultimate authority, and
how he slowly gained control of their minds and their lives,
all under the guise of helping them.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
They'll tell us about how his manipulation escalated into sexual
abuse and ultimately horrific violence, how one night of being
alone led to Daniel finally leaving, and how they're both
doing now that Larry's finally going to prison for the
harm that he has caused.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Thanks God, right, yeah, thank God by Larry. I wish
we could have talked to them for so much longer,
but I love this interview because we got to really
talk about how he sort of really started to take
control of their minds, which I feel like is such
an important part of the picture. Like it's not just
about yeah, the actual physical abuse, you know what I mean,
and the and.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Their minds are so what people historically think of as smart,
so I can't really show what can happen to anyone.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I mean, they are smart, I know, I just mean
like Harvard like traditionally, Yeah, yeah, they have the like
qualifications technically for what you would consider smart person totally.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, of course they're newses, but you know what
I mean, so a million people that have gotten into
culs but they just didn't go to Harvard, and then
people are like they're dumb whatever, I didn't.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Go to Harvard, Am I dumb. Yeah, yeah, very stupid.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh thank you, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, before we dive in with them, Megan, kindly tell
me you're cultiest thing.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Okay, Well, it's definitely not good news, but probably a
lot of people have seen this in the news. The
actor from Dancing with Wolves, his name is Nathan Chasing Horrace.
He was arrested in his Las Vegas home. He had
five wives with him, some underage, and he's been running
a sex cult and essentially he's been using Native Americans
(02:44):
beliefs against them because he would go do spiritual ceremonies
and all these reservations across Canada and the US and
kind of be like, now I need to have sex
with someone. The story is very confusing and muddled, and
I think it's going to get more clear as more
stuff is released. But it sounds like he was having
sex with women are girls as young as thirteen, and
(03:05):
he had pills for his wives to kill themselves should
the police show up. So it looks like they narrowly
missed being part of a death cult because the police
got them Mountain time.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yeah, I think, thank god. I mean, it just goes
to show that there's really no belief system that is
immune to the abuse of power, like any freakin religion,
any community like and I don't want to like, you know,
be a fearmonger or whatever, but it is kind of
everywhere and it can't exist in any community. And that's
(03:38):
why it's so important for us to, you know, be
mindful of group dynamics. Yeah, wherever there's.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
A good thing happening, somebody can twist it and make
it very bad.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
I know. It just it's such a bummer when it's
like I mean, it's always a bummer. It's always a bummer.
But like when it's someone who's supposed to be like
a spiritual healers, you know, a spiritual leader of some kind. Yeah,
but again, always a bummer. And every scenario it like
it's always under the guise of helping people. I mean,
at least very very frequently, I should say. Yeah, it
(04:08):
makes me sad that there are so many of these
usually men not always out there.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeap, very unfortunate, just messing with people's beliefs too. Yeah, Oh,
I know, what about what about you? What's the cultiest
thing that happened to you?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Nothing CULTI has happened to me. This week because I've
been in an editing hole. But I am emerging from
the editing hole and welcome, Thank you. I was just
really interested in this story that you actually alerted me
to about how there was a retired NYPD detective who
was just sort of talking about how internet sleuths are dangerous,
(04:46):
and so there's this article about how here's a quote
from him, sleuths don't know the standards of proof that
police departments rely on. They may end up violating somebody's
rights when doing these private investigations and inevitably might compromise
courtroom testimony and presentation. And there are just a few
instances in the article describing people who actually are now
(05:08):
being prosecuted for unethical websleue behavior and also people who
are being sued for like pointing a finger at someone
for a crime that they fucking did not commit. Yeah,
so it's about the Idaho history teacher Rebecca Schofield who's
suing this TikToker for defamation. Good. There are like other
instances of this happening. And listen, like I know that
(05:31):
if a crime has been committed against you and the
police are not doing their job, or like the authorities
are just like not taking your case seriously. Like, I
totally understand the desire to get help from other people,
but there obviously are just people who take it too far,
people who make accusations without knowing what they're talking about,
just because things look a little funny. And as we know,
(05:51):
coincidences are not the same as actual evidence that would
hold up in court. So I just I appreciate that
there's some attention being called to it, even though of
course there are instances of it working.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I'm very curious to see what happens with this case.
I wonder what the punishment will be, since she's obviously
guilty and was really destroying this woman's life and saying,
I know you killed these kids.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Jesus. Oh so scary. I know. Well, speaking of scary things,
shall we let's do it?
Speaker 1 (06:25):
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Discounts not available in all states and situations. Welcome Felicia
(07:31):
Rosario and Daniel Levin to trust me. Thank you so
much for joining us today. First of all, you guys
have just been through so much, especially you Felicia. It's
very harrowing. Some of the footage that we have seen,
and I'm very grateful that you're even able to share
your story and be here with us today. Can you
guys kind of start us at the beginning. We can
go one at a time, just telling us what your
lives were like before you met Larry Ray. Can start
(07:54):
with you, Felicia.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Okay, my life before I met Larry. I was had
start in my internship, my residency in psychiatry at USC.
I had gone to Harvard on scholarship and studied biochemistry
and then took seven time off and went to medical
school at Columbia in New York.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Pretty sweet education you have going before Larry, Right, that's
very cool.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Yeah, what was like your trajectory? What were you hoping
life would turn out like before you met him?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Before I met him, I was planning to be a
forensic psychiatrist actually, so that was part of why I
went to USC in LA because it has one of
the best forensics training programs in the country. Yeah, and
I was planning to be a forensic psychiatrist to research,
work with the underserved, work with the disenfranchised. That was
(08:47):
a plan to give back to help as many people
as possible.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
And Daniel. What was your life like before.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Larry substantially less admirable. I was at Sir Lwrens College.
I was eighteen years old. I also there on scholarship,
had just kind of barely gotten in and was happy
to just be figuring out who I was at eighteen.
You know, I was studying these like classic liberal arts
(09:15):
things like writing and poetry and philosophy and literature, and
like heaven.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
The campus is just like these beautiful old buildings and
trees and.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was everything that I had kind
of envisioned college might be, like, yeah, the sort of
rolling hills and the big old stone buildings and friends.
You know, it was the first time that I was
going to a place where I was surrounded by people
who were like me. I grew up in a pretty
conservative area and so just starting to discover myself when
(09:48):
I met.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Larry Ray right, and you met him first, right, You
were kind of living in the apartment when Felicia arrived.
How did you first meet? First of all, Larry's daughter Talia,
and then how did you meet?
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Sure, So in freshman year, I made friends with Santos,
Felicia's younger brother. He was my freshman year roommate and
kind of my first friend at Sara Lawrence. He started
dating Talia Ray and so you know, they had like
a college relationship. And everyone knew that Talia's dad was
(10:21):
this guy Larry, who had been unjustly, according to her, incarcerated.
He was this incredible intelligence agent. He had done all
these amazing things and had been at the center of
this conspiracy. She'd been separated from her sister. This was
kind of the story that Talia would tell over and over,
and that was like her life to get back together
(10:43):
with her dad, and going into sophomore year, Talia kind
of spearheaded all of us getting group housing, which at
Sarah Lawrence you can apply to all live in a
house together as a group, which gives you a better
shot at just getting better housing. So we got to
move into this kind of townhouse type situation rather than
(11:03):
being lumped into dorms with other people called Sloan and Woods.
There were eight of us, and we learned towards the
beginning of that year, our sophomore year, that Talia's dad
was getting out of prison, and she asked if he
could come and kind of crash while he got his
feet back under him, and it felt like it would
(11:25):
be kind of horrible to say no to that. After
her whole she'd been living in homeless shelters, all these things.
All she wanted was to be back with her dad,
and so we kind of passively let that happen. And
that's how Larry Ray came into my life.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
And can you tell us about your first impression of him?
What do you seem like?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, I you know, for me, off the bat, he
mostly seemed really stressful, you know, to be honest, he
was just kind of like he would talk a lot
and really fast, and it just seemed like he took
up a lot of my friend's time and attention. First
sort of had Santos and Talia, Larry's daughter and Talia's
(12:06):
best friend Isabella, were sort of in his orbit, and
then later our friend Claudia, and they just seemed to
really glom onto him. And I was dating my first
girlfriend of you know, my life really and was socializing
and having fun and this just seemed like a lot
they were talking about, like truth and justice and like
fighting back against the powers that be, and it was
(12:27):
just like too much. So it's very happy to ignore that,
but I was ignoring what turned out to be a
lot more than just those conversations. Right.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It's interesting because it seems like that initial transformation with
Santos and Isabella was what really drew everyone in, and
I understand that. Can you tell a little bit what
happened to their demeanor after spending time with him?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah, it seemed like, you know, we're at Sarah Lawrence,
which is famously a very kind of liberal environment. It
felt like everyone had been pretty free spirited, but at
the same time was dealing with a lot of kind
of eighteen year old angst. You know, I knew that
Santos had the same kind of struggles that I did
(13:14):
as a young man, and it was pretty clear that
Isabella was struggling with some things that I would now
call like mental health issues. And suddenly they became a
lot more regimented. I would say. It felt like they
were kind of myopic, like single minded, and a lot
(13:38):
less fun noticeably so. But at the same time, they
were talking really regularly about how great Larry was, how
much he was helping them, how much the sort of
problems they'd been dealing with with themselves with their families
were kind of all getting cleared up. Everything was so
much better, and they seemed like school was going back
(14:00):
her for them. You know, it felt like there was
evidence that something was changing. It's just at the time
wasn't the change that I even really desired. I was
perfectly happy to not be doing great in school.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Right, And Isabella like seemed to have like a complete
transformation as a perclusive.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
At right and then dynamic.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
Yeah, I think that she was at first what you
might it's a reductive phrase, but what you might call
like an emo girl, kind of you know, the person
you recognize their heirs always in front of their face.
She's kind of like pretty retreated into herself, maybe a
little like scathing, you know. And Talia was like her
(14:40):
first really close friend who seemed to really see her
and make her feel like a person. And there was
something that seemed kind of beautiful about that. And Larry
became an extension of Talia and then this kind of
father figure for her, and that was really evident, like
very quickly, and all of the sudden, it did seem
like Isabella kind of came out of her show. She
(15:01):
was like very confident and very outspoken, and you know,
had a big personality and all of this happened, all this.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Sid wow, so yeah, so that I would have been like,
signed me up.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, it just happened.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
What Sorcery, Oh he's helping he's helping all of these people.
Maybe he can help me.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And it showed like santost like kind of being in
the deck. That's so wonderful. I hope everybody sees it.
But like being hunched over and then his posture changes
and he's confident and and it just seems like, Wow,
I would want to talk to this person so badly.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Yeah, and pelics, Yeah, I would love to hear from you.
Since your siblings kind of knew him first, Like what
did you observe in them when they started spending time
with him.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
I would echo what Dan said as far as my
brother goes, he was much brighter, happier, he was much
more confident, he had goals. He was a different person.
He was the person that I mean, he would say
he was the person that he was that he had
always wanted to be, like he had gotten he had
(16:03):
gotten to that place because before that he had struggled
significantly with mental illness, and I'd had a suicide attempt
and was. I had been recovering from that and recovered
well enough, you know, to go to college and go
to a great school, but you know, there were still
(16:24):
vestiges of you know, everything that led up to that, right,
and that was that went for all of us, including myself.
But after Santo started talking to Larry, he was just like,
oh my god, you know this is still great. Life
is awesome. I want to try all these things. Like
it was hard enough to get him to try like
a different kind of sandwich, right, want to do anything different.
(16:52):
And then my sister, like Santo's introduced my sister to Larry,
and she also was very similar. She had struggled to
with depression and anxiety, and Larry just like may like
it felt like he snapped his fingers and made life better.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the
story because the thing with colts and the thing with
abusers is that at first it's great. At first it works,
like whatever they're offering you is effective, like for whatever reason,
sometimes they're pulling from legitimate psychology or you know, and
(17:34):
sometimes they're just providing a sense of community or sense
of purpose, but whatever the reason, it's working. And that
is why people get drawn and they don't get drawn
in like seeing him abuse someone, like, that's not what happens.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Right, And what the technique he had with Daniel first?
I mean, Daniel, your story is just like we were
talking today. That's just like we feel sick to our stomachs.
You guys have been through yeah, so so much or
such beautiful people, it breaks our hearts. But Daniel, so
you were you were in college or struggling, You're like,
am I gay? Am I not gay? And he draws
(18:07):
this diagram for you and is like are you attracted
to men? And you're like not really, and he's like, great,
then you're not gay and he just takes it away
and suddenly you said you felt like a million pounds
were lifted off of your chest, Like what what did
that feel like?
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Well?
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think you know, we're all familiar with the feeling
of moving through life with no one definitively telling you
how anything works or what is true or false or
good or bad, how to be a good person, Like
we the idea of they're just being actually one person
who if you can imagine actually trusting them, like really
(18:42):
believing that they do know and then they just tell
you this is who you.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Are and what your dream dream.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, it's awesome, you know. Yeah, And this is what
you're going to do with your life, and I'm going
to help you do it. It's going to be great,
you know. And just truly, if it's so hard to
imagine now because everyone seeing all the horrible things that happened,
but if it's possible to sort of rewind to that
moment and be like absolutely, if you actually believed that,
what an incredible relief. This is how people end up,
(19:11):
you know, living under fascism. But so, yeah, you know,
I felt anxiety about whether or not I was gay,
about my sexuality that I think probably the vast majority
of young men feel. I felt insecurity about my body
that I think is extraordinarily common, all of these things.
And he offered black and white answers, you know, definitive answers,
(19:35):
and it felt like, finally I can quell this anxiety
that I've been struggling with. Now. Of course, as things progressed,
having someone tell you some a simple answer that isn't
actually accurate to the more complicated reality, it doesn't really work.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
I kept having these questions sort of crop up and
then those sort of my questioning, uh, pushed back against
Larry's control, and so I'd escalated into abuse.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
Well, I want to I want to talk about some
of the ways that he did begin to exert control
over you. Daniel, and then Felicia, let's start getting into
your story.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, when did it start to get bad? Because we
first it got sexual. Correct, So you guys are at
Sarah Lawrence. Then you then he gets an apartment in
the city, and that seems like it when it took
a turn for a little bit more extreme. So you
are you guys are now staying at the apartment in
New York City, And first he starts kind of narrowing
(20:38):
in on sex with you.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Yeah, and I can I can say, like, I so,
you know, I first move into this apartment because it's
in the simplest terms, it's just genuinely finding it so
difficult to find an apartment in New York City, right,
and was just like, you know, I was going to
Sarah Lawrence, which is just outside the city. It seems
like the thing that everyone all there, like cool kids
do is live in the city. What I didn't know
was they all had rich parents and I just can't
(21:05):
tell you that, so you know it. Genuinely, it felt
like I had missed a class on how to be
a person or something. And Larry kind of came in
and was like, I can I can kind of catch
you up, and I have this place that you can live,
and also your friends are like staying over and hanging
out there all the time, and you know, everything's cool,
(21:29):
so it's like fine, you know, I'll crash on his
couch until I figure it out. And Larry's introduced sex
into this environment, so I'm sleeping on his couch essentially,
is how I understand it. And for some context, I
had known that Isabella kind of had a crush on me.
(21:52):
Will you know, we were all living in this dorm.
I just wasn't particularly interested if he like sent her
out into the living room to perform oral sex on me.
And I have a distinct memory of feeling like frozen
(22:13):
and like time was signed down. I sort of didn't
understand what was happening, and like staying in this apartment,
I kind of feel like I owe them something, like
I don't want to cause trouble, and then what would
I do if I like can't continue to stay there?
I don't have anywhere else to go. And so that
was just like the smallest first step into what escalated
(22:35):
into kind of Larry claiming to give me like a
sexual education because I was had hang ups or was
too like prude or needed to kind of like get
out of my shell. And you know, it became very
controlling and coercive and non consensual. Yeah, from top to bottom.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It's God, it's so terrible. What were some of those
ways that you can see now that were him like
slowly getting control over you? Like, can you talk about
like isolating you from other people or in the late
night integrations, Like, I'm just curious about that process because
(23:17):
it does happen slowly. How does it get to the
point that it got to?
Speaker 3 (23:22):
So for me, you go from like you're hanging out
with your friends in college and sometimes you're having like
all nighters, or you're staying up until like sunrise and
this kind of thing. And now I'm in this environment
where we're staying up until sunrise, but we're talking instead
of just like hanging out and making jokes, we're talking
about like how to be a good person. And my
(23:42):
friend's fifty five year old dad is there and he's
kind of running the show. And then that shifts to
being like these conversations will be really focused on one
person and their relationship to their memories and their childhood
and what happened with their parents and you know, how
they behave and all these things. The mechanism here for
(24:07):
the more intense abuse I think is basically shame. You know,
he made me feel like he said to me, you're
not gay, you know, you're a man, and then it
was like up to me to prove it by going
along with what he was the context he was creating,
(24:31):
the circumstances he was putting me in. So you know,
it was like, if you want to continue to prove
that you're the type of man that I've said you are,
and you're straight and you're all these things, you will
follow my lead.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
So he first establishes himself as like an authority on
like everything. Basically he is the wise god literally everything. Marines.
So he was in the Marines, but he said he
was like this.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
I thought he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Oh he was.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
He was in the Marines for like what was it
like nineteen days? Yeah, yeah, just his whole idea.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yea, I didn't realize I mean technically true, but yeah,
but that but like he's you know, painting himself as
someone who has been a part of very high level
government operations and he's experienced a lot and he's been
through a lot, so he has all this wisdom and
(25:23):
I'm assuming he actually did do some reading on things,
because he seemed to know about things, which maybe you
can speak to Felicia. But so like he's establishing like
I'm the authority, I know about everything. You're all young.
I know what to do, I know what the answers are.
And then he's creating these goalposts for you because he
has all this wisdom and he knows what's best for you,
(25:45):
for you to live up to that continuously move right.
It's like, oh, you're not good enough, I'm going to
tell you how to be good enough. But then that of.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
Course again, yeah, he was very well read or is
again he is very well ready, He's very educated on
many topics.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Can carry on a conversation with anyone with just about
but just about anything. M hm. And and it's true,
I mean he would he would challenge us and be
like take a book off of the shelf, like don't
tell me what it is, go to a page like
and like read like three words to me, and then
(26:29):
I'll tell you the rest of it, Like I'll read
you the whole paragraph.
Speaker 5 (26:32):
Whoa, And he actually had his he.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I mean he did it all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Did he just have a photograph photograph memory?
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Yes, he's very smart.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
So he's very good that he knows a lot. And
then he can talk his way around what he does
anybody what he doesn't know exactly. And then he did.
He did know some people. He he did know people
in the government, he knew chief of Police, chief of
police former and New York City detectives dagents, Like he
(27:09):
knew all these people. Yeah, and I met them and
they were They're like, Hi, I'm Larry's friend, right, you know,
how did he.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Know all of these people? How did this happen? Do
we know?
Speaker 3 (27:21):
I think that the way that he operated for many
years is kind of this classic con man thing where
he was just leveraging one connection after another to just
kind of leap frog up. So it'd be like, you know,
he has someone he knew from childhood, he uses them
to get connected to someone who's a little bit more powerful,
and then he meets someone else and he claims he
(27:43):
knows this person, and he just sort of bouncing back
and forth. And I think that a lot of a
lot of how you can understand Larry is that most
of us have all kinds of other goals for our
lives and things that we care about and that take
up our attention and time. If you're just like single
minded and all you care about is kind of trying
(28:05):
to achieve status for its own sake or power for
its own sake, you can you can get a long way.
There's a natural cadence to conversation, and I think we
all know the feeling of like waiting for a natural
pause when you can interject. And I think that if
you just imagine feeling that feeling for years, that's what
(28:26):
it was, like, My God, to you, Larry Way, just
someone who is so capable of ignoring all of the
etiquette that we've all learned our whole lives and just
never stops.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
The anxiety that that creates in me.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
There's one of one hundred and twenty milligrams of adderall sometimes,
so wow, combining all of that shit together and you've got.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, when you have us focused as.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
Actually slower, he was slow slower on our home when
he had his one hundred and twenty miligrams. You didn't
want to talk to him before if he didn't have
his adderall. I was like, oh my god, you didn't
dig your adderall?
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Whoa?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Here was this what you were texting me about? Saying
the energy that this man had?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Yes, it was like how like I complete one task
a day and I'm like, I did it, and this
man is just like moving trees and like buildings and
like the smartest people I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Are like, yeah, I'm just like, whoa, I can't.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I don't understand why sociopaths have so much energy.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's can they give us some of it? Please?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
And yet at the same time, he got nothing done.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Exactly right right?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
They Yes, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
She never finished anything. He was never on time, like
he could just he could not get it together. It's
true the time No.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Wow, Well why do you need a driver's license when
you have you know people you're abusing?
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Who do first?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah? So, Felicia, can you tell us about how you
first met him? How did how did then it all start?
Speaker 4 (30:09):
So? I met Larry through my sister and my brother.
I think that he had them, you know, engineer this
this dinner. So I came home from Los Angeles to
visit and my brother was like, oh, we have to
go out to dinner with Larry, Like you have to
(30:29):
meet my friend Larry. And I was like, okay, sure's
still meet Larry. So it was the three of us
and Larry. We went out to an Italian restaurant and
he was just he was really just cheerful, really nice,
(30:50):
charming kind uh not not like how he ended up
being obviously right, he was. He seemed great and he
was really smart. He he could keep up like conversations
with me about you know, all my medicine, my psychiatry,
(31:12):
any everything, you know, everything that I knew about. So
I it was, I was, it was cool. I was like,
you know, he's he's you know, I like him. He's
he's good. And my brother really likes him. My sister
is a fan. Then he took me back, he took us, well,
(31:36):
all of us. We went back to the apartment and
we talked to him. We talked for for a really
long time. It was like till two in the morning
or something. We stayed up talking and he played some
songs for me. He was really into this music ah
music therapy. So he you know, he had learned about
(32:01):
our family dynamics from talking to Santos and my sister
really za, so he knew, you know, the thing, what
had been going on with my parents and my relationship
with my parents already. So he plays these really sad
songs about like father daughter relationships and it's like all
(32:21):
of this Tori Amos, and I'm just like, oh my god.
So I'm like and I mean, it's beautiful music and
it's it's very emotional, right, So I ends up crying.
But the story that comes out of that is not
about the music, is that he ends up saying afterwards
that I confessed to him that my family was out
(32:46):
to get him, was working with Bernard Carrick, kill him and.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Tell yeah, And he went to jail before, and Bernard
was a part of that, correct, So in two thousand
and three, Larry went to jail. Bernard was part of
this conspiracy which was actually just a normal person should
go to jail for this. So so he's saying, yes,
you told me that Bernard your family's working with him,
and and right, okay, okay, got it.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
So then I was so then this is where this
is where the poisoning plot starts, where he starts.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
Damn yeah, first night.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
Yeah, so he he's he already singles me out as
like the good one because I'm the one that came
and told him and like uncovered the plot and then
everyone else turns into poisoners like you know, years down
the line. But it's you know, he he started, he
had this in his mind very early on, that there
(33:46):
was some kind of the conspiracy theory against him, and
then he leveraged he leveraged that and everything else. He
made my sister and my brother believe against me, against
me and my parents.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Do you think he believed any of this or is
he just messing with you guys.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Just shaking her head? No?
Speaker 4 (34:09):
No, yes, sorry video. Yeah, No, I don't. I don't
think he believed it. There were so many times when
he's he has a great poker face, so he can
tell you things and it sounds like he believe it's true.
But but I've seen him do it to me. Even
(34:31):
he'll like he'll tell me something, He's like, I was
just kidding, Like you believed me. I was like, yes,
I believed you. So no, I don't think he believed it.
It's because it was absolutely there was there was no basis,
there was no foundation, and he clearly had his own agenda.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
The question about whether he believed what he said, I
think is really interesting. And also the reason that I
didn't leave for a really long time was because I
thought that I could figure out an answer to what
was going on in Larry's head and whether he believed
it or not, or whether this even if he didn't
(35:12):
believe what he was saying, it was part of a
program to help us, like he claimed all these things,
and it just turned out at a certain point that
that maze is doesn't have an exit on purpose. Yeah,
you know, it's like intended to be that absurd and
not navigable, and so the only answer just becomes like
(35:34):
I don't deserve to be hurt this way, and can
just stop it, you.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Know, right?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
And how you stopped it as one of my favorite stories.
We have to get to that because it's so fascinating
and what we see a lot. Can we talk about
when you went back to Los Angeles Because you were
going to go back to Los Angeles, your life was
going to continue as normal, but you started being followed
Is that so correct?
Speaker 4 (36:02):
Yeah? So I went back to al like because I
was only here for a few days to visit my family,
and then I was then I had to go back
to work. I was Was I still on psychiatry, Yeah,
I was still in my psychiatry rotations. So I go
back to Los Angeles. I start Larry starts calling me
(36:24):
like all the time, mostly with the pretext of talking
about how Santos is doing, how my sister is doing.
Because I'm I'm the eldest and my parents worked a lot,
so I was effectively like the third parent, so I
(36:46):
you know, so I I I was really the person
that was there for my siblings, for both of them
as while we were growing up. So Larry so naturally
and I and I had a very good relationship with
both of them. So when Larry wanted to talk about
something that was going on with either of them that
(37:08):
he would talk to like a mom about, he would
talk to me, and so so that was the pretext,
and then then we got to talking about other things.
He was very interested in my work. I love my job,
so I was happy to talk about work, and then
and then it got to be I mean, then then
(37:30):
he he got you know, he got romantic and then
he started saying I love you. It took maybe like
two or three months and he started telling me I
love you. But he'd I Now, I don't know if
I was being.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Followed or not experience about but.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
I think I don't think I actually was. I think
he got me so paranoid that I believed that I
was being followed, that I believed that people were going
to come after me. That I I mean, and he
would he planted it like we're not planted. He said
it constantly. Well, you know, because you're talking to me
(38:09):
like Kark's going to be looking for you. I was like,
what are you talking about? What does that have to
do with anything? And then it just he he just
he persisted and he just made this story. And sorry,
(38:29):
this is hard. It's hard to talk about, but because
it's just so much, you know, he he It didn't
take long for him to just make me paranoid or
be or he was paranoid himself. He was worried about
me seeing other people. He was worried about me, who
(38:52):
I was having sex with, who I was going out with,
just like everything that like a controlling like significant other
does like that's what he did. But it was like
long distance, and it was he was just he was
so determined, Like he's so good at controlling and like
(39:16):
manipulating people, really like really like getting to your vulnerabilities
and fears and weaknesses. That like he was in my
head and it was and there was very little I
could do to to fight back up until September of
(39:38):
twenty twelve when he broke me and I was like, Okay,
you're broken, now you need to come to New York.
And I had no I had not no choice but
to come back and leave my job, you know, without
any notice.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
So how how long were these conversations that he was
having with you?
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Hours?
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Yeah, there were there were, because I mean I worked
during the day, as you know, as and as a
resident or as an intern. It's I'm working at least
twelve hours a day.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
My weekends is like free time.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Right.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
It would be like all all a whole Saturday from
like morning tonight, and we would be on the phone
all day, wow, all day and he would just be
asking me questions or berating me. I mean it just
went all sorts of ways. And then I could just
never get off the phone.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
Somehow yeah, and then somehow he was still doing everything
else in the apartment at the same time while he
was talking to me, and just it was so crazy.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Right, It's like there were five yeah, oh yeah, like
he was everywhere all at once. Yeah. I just want
to comment on the fact that, like, you know, this
isn't like you're having an hour conversation and he's in
your head, like he is taking up all of your
free time and hijacking all of your ability to think
(41:05):
for yourself because you have literally, even though you're not
with him, you have no time alone. And that is
that is the classic way that people indoctrinate people over
time is you just do not even give them a
chance to start to think critically at all.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Busy busy, So you're like, I have to go back
to New York. Someone's following me. I'm terrified, Daniel. Were
you still at the apartment at this time or had
you left yet?
Speaker 3 (41:29):
It was yeah, we overlapped at the apartment for a
little while.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
And what was it like at that point? What had
it started to become more chaotic? Had all this shit
started to come moving in because he was just like
compounding stuff in this apartment, and yeah, what was the
vibe there?
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Yeah, the way I think of it now is if
he started to make the interior of the apartment and
all of us like reflections of the inside of his
own brain. So it became it was like hell was there.
Like it was just pile high with it was like
(42:08):
there were ten apartments in one apartment, you know, just
like so many boxes of random things and appliances and
tools and supplies. And then he'd bring in heavy duty
woodworking equipment, you know, a band saw that weighed I
think eight hundred pounds, like all these things. I don't
even know how he got them into this apartment. So, yes,
(42:31):
it was highly chaotic. By then you had people. At first,
you know, Santos was going back to his parents at night,
but then by then was he was sleeping over a
bond was sleeping over I was, you know. So there's
just like people sleeping on the floor trying to just
sort of make space around like paint cans. It was
(42:54):
totally out of control and not good for feeling sane.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
But what did he that all this stuff was in
there for.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Well, he claimed that the reason it was so chaotic
was that we were failing to organize the space, and
that if he had an hour, he would fix everything,
but he had to let us figure out how to
do it or how to sort of better ourselves, and
that there was room for everything if you just figured
(43:23):
out how to organize it.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
It makes me want to scream. It makes me want
to scream.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Yeah, everything is your fault. That's that's just the class
every no matter what it is, your you are the problem.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
And I could fix it so easily. Yeah, but why
can't you?
Speaker 4 (43:37):
Yeah, but I'm going to make it a teaching lesson
and let you. I'm gonna let you do it just
so you learn.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I'm not going to do it, Daniel. Can you talk
about the process, like how it began to actually turn violent?
Speaker 4 (43:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
So, I think as is classic with the sort of
group coerceive control situations. There was a kind of hierarchy
that emerged, but that hierarchy was always shifting. Larry was
always at the top, but who was at the very
bottom would cycle, so it would be someone was the
scapegoat for everything. It was one person's fault that the
(44:14):
apartment was in chaos because they had been sabotaging Larry
and sabotaging everyone else's progress. You never wanted to be
that person, so you would do everything you could to
be good, And there was this feeling that everyone had
to be careful because someone else would tell Larry that
you had said something wrong or done something wrong. I
don't know how often that actually happened, but that was
(44:35):
the feeling. So there came a point when I, you know,
it had been in and out, but at a certain
point I was very much on the bottom, and it
just happened that for whatever reason, I think that Larry
was experimenting with how far he could push it with
(44:56):
me at first, or something. He had been really extreme
with everyone, So it's hard to say for me, but
it became about both escapegoating me for things that had
gone wrong. He claimed I had sabotaged his daughter's application
to law school, among other things. But also it became
(45:20):
about my sexuality in a pretty intense way, and about
kind of fixing me, and everything just sort of compounded
all at once, So in my memory, it just was
like one thing after another, getting more and more extreme
until I left.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
So can you describe for us how the cracks began
to emerge in your brain and ultimately led to you leaving.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
So I first was starting to kind of doubt Larry
a little bit, and in simple ways that now in
retrospect feels silly, like he was obsessed with creating these
websites and that he was going to own all these
domain names and make all these websites and they were
going to make a lot of money. It just happens
that my dad's business, my whole life is designing websites.
(46:10):
So I knew. I was just like, these are bad websites.
These are the kind of websites that you land on
when you miss type Google, right, you know, and these don't.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
It's a claim that he was making like millions of dollars,
and I just was like, there's no way that that's true.
And then once you start to question little like one thing,
it's like, well, if that's not true, then either he's
lying about it or he doesn't know, and either way
something is wrong. And then you start to wonder, you know,
(46:43):
what is he doing in the bedroom for all those
hours with Isabella, or like, you know, all these things,
And so that combined, I think that he could tell
that I was doubting. He started like showing me photos
of him with Gorbacheaw or a photo of him with
George H. Bush. He had a friend of his from
childhood get on the phone with me and tell me
(47:05):
about how amazing Larry was as a young man. All
these things, so it felt like he was trying to
prove something to me, but as I was still kind
of not getting with the program, he was escalating the
physical violence. So, you know, towards the end, he there
was a night that he made what he called a
(47:27):
garat out of saran wrap and aluminum foil and like
wrap that around my groin and was tightening it in
front of my friends, trying to get me to admit
to some sabotage. There was the night that he, you know,
put me in a dress and made me like try
(47:49):
to swallow a dildo like and say that I wasn't
gay anymore. All these things, And so there was one
day that for some reason I was up and no
one else was and or people were out of the apartment,
and I went up to the roof of this building.
This is on the upper East side of Manhattan. It's
like the forty five story building, I think, and I
(48:10):
don't really know it was just sort of an impulse.
I went up to the roof and then as it
saw a ladder And this is also pre Larry, a
person who likes climbing up and finding high blazes. You're
a cat, yeah, I'm a cat. Yeah. And so you know,
I climbed this ladder and it was like, oh, this
is kind of cool, like I'm getting up on this
(48:31):
highest building in this area. And then there's a water tower.
I got to the top of the water tower. And
something that Larry had claimed the entire time that I
knew him was that we were all suicidal, whether we
kind of knew it or not, that it was an
impulse we couldn't control, like a switch in our brain,
and it could happen kind of any time, and his help,
(48:51):
the whole point of his help was that he was
protecting us from ourselves, and that if we weren't careful,
or that if we got away from him, we would
impulsively like step onto the train tracks or something like that,
and he would play it on that feeling. You know,
I think we all get that sort of call of
the void where you like you're holding your keys and
(49:11):
you kind of want to drop them down, like a grate.
He just kind of was like, you know that feeling
like that's weird you. No one else has that, just you,
And he claimed that if one of us did it,
we would all do it. So I was up there
on this water tower and was like, if I really
wanted to kill myself, you know, I'm four hundred and
fifty feet in the air, I'm on the edge of
(49:34):
this thing, I could absolutely, very easily do it. And
I was like, do I want to honestly given everything else,
and I didn't. I was like, I don't want to die,
and I and that's it's not true. And so if
that fundamentally isn't true, and it's at the heart of
everything he's cleaned this whole time, then a lot of
other things must not be true. And either way, I'm
(49:56):
being harmed and it feels dangerous and I don't want
to I feel like it's going to get worse and
I want to live. And so I felt like I
had to just try and figure out a way to
get away without him following me, and so that became
a whole other pursuit.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
It's just so interesting that you just needed like a
couple hours by yourself to get your brain back. That's
how busy I've and exhausted and everything I feel like.
I mean, yeah, definitely interesting that he would be in
your head so often and then you got away for
a minute, got out.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Let me see that. A lot, a lot of stories
began with just like a little bit of alone time.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
The pandemic made a lot of people leave the cult
I was raised in because they weren't programmed every five seconds.
So anyway, very interesting. So you're yeah, he's you're back
in the real world, you go back to school, whileas Felicia,
your life is just beginning to ramp up into madness.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Yes, yeah, talk about that time and how he had
sort of hijacked your brain essentially. At that point, he
seemed like such an so skilled at convincing people they
were crazy that there was something wrong with them, you know,
because yeah, tell us about that.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
Yeah, so it started. It started before I came back here,
you know, before I came back to New York in
September of twenty twelve. And within the month we went on,
he had me drive him to Washington, d C. To
meet his friend, who actually was a marine, a lieutenant
(51:40):
general in the Marine Corps. Retired.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
He had to do that too. I didn't realize that
you were.
Speaker 5 (51:47):
Ya same friend I did. Wow, huh same same guy.
Speaker 4 (51:52):
But yeah, Larry, yeah, yeah, same guy, yeng nuy. Yeah.
He was awesome. The guy was awesome.
Speaker 5 (51:58):
Not Larry, yes, no, of course, but so I.
Speaker 4 (52:04):
He he he yells at me and gaslights me the
whole way down and he has me meet, you know,
and we get there and then we meet his we
meet some more law enforcement friends and he's like, this
is he. This person's from the DA, the Navy, CEL, FBI,
(52:26):
all of these, you know, branches of government. He's like,
you know, if anything ever happened to me there, they
would they would come after you. If you ever did
anything to me, they would come after you. And he
got on me for like a whole other day and
he made me suicidal. Like the next at night when
(52:48):
we went to sleep, I got up and I went
and bought a bunch of child all and took it.
I took it and I found a river and I
was trying to I'm not going to be too detailed,
but the point was I did have Unfortunately I did
end up taking the title in all, but I did
(53:10):
have my moment of wait a minute, I don't want
to die, and I got out. I clawed myself back
to the street. The police found me and then they
took me to the hospital, but then Larry got to
the hospital and he hijacked the whole hospital visit. He
told the doctors that I was tried to kill myself
(53:31):
because of my mother, and like made all of this
stuff up and then had me taken out against medical
advice and then used and then used that as leverage
over me, saying like you'll never be a doctor again.
Who's ever going to hire a doctor who trying to
(53:52):
commit suicide? And then you know, like Daniel was saying
about the scapegoat since he couldn't get me to do
what he wanted all the time, because he was really
he was trying to groom all of us and to
have this sexual grooming, and I didn't cooperate. I ended
(54:14):
up the scapegoat, especially after Daniel was gone, so he
would he would beat me, he would starve me. I
spent a week in Pinehurst out on the porch. He
left me out on the porch without food or water,
with like a blanket, and I wasn't allowed to leave
(54:35):
the property, otherwise he was gonna call the police. Oh
my gosh, she would punch me in the face like
he would like regularly. It just it went on. It
was just it went on and on. Like almost anything
you could do to somebody he did to me.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
And there is a footage of some of this stuff
which is just fucking horrible to see. I'm also glad
it exists for court for the case so that he
cannot continue to gaslight people. I'm so glad, But but
what an idiot, What a dumb move on his part
filming all of his abuse.
Speaker 4 (55:13):
No, I mean, and he swore he was, He swore
it was gonna he was going to be vindicated with
all of this foot is.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
He was like, no, I'm good brilling how crazy.
Speaker 4 (55:23):
Everyone was towards me, and how badly behaved everyone was
towards me, and everyone's going to go to jail because
they hurt me. Ultimately, he would say.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Ultimately, do you think that this was about sex for him?
Because he did. He ended up stealing so much money
from all of your parents, turning all of you again,
like he told you of Felicia, that your your siblings
were poisoning you. And he really tried to separate you
from your families. So I just wanted to know, do
you guys know like a motive or do you know
what the hell was he doing?
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Power I mean, I don't know if you want me to, Daniel,
I don't think there's a really good answer for this.
The way that I thought about it is, however you
want to think about, like what he believed or what
he thought was true or wasn't whatever. He's clearly like
a sick person, and I think that I think of
it as someone who whose sickness was contagious and he
(56:14):
just like needed to figure out a way to make
us psychotic like he was, to make us delusional like
he was. But I don't know, you know, it seemed
like someone who was incapable of surviving in regular society
and who was trying to like force his way into
a version of survival, and who seemed to derive some
kind of pleasure or satisfaction from torturing other people.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
I just would love to hear how you guys are
doing now now seeing that he is actually being prosecuted
and you're you're sharing your story, like, how are you please?
Speaker 4 (56:48):
Yah? Okay, I'm doing I'm so happy, really, that happy
as the word elated. He was just sentence January twentieth,
sixty years in prison, he's sixty three, so they could
get out at one hundred and twenty three years old,
(57:11):
effectively life and supervised release. So I mean, I'm just
so glad the justice system worked and the judge really
nailed it. He really he was really able to see
the truth and and you know, stand by it, and
(57:33):
I felt so validated.
Speaker 3 (57:36):
I'm so glad we get we get to be in
the very small group of people who can say that
they put their abuse or in prison, and a very
small group of people who get to say that they
put their cult leader in prison. And that's it's unbelievable,
and I hope that more people get to say that.
Speaker 2 (57:56):
I know, oh my god too. But I'm so I'm
so happy that just this is actually being served. You
guys deserve it so much for what you've been through,
and I yeah, I once again, I very much, we
very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
What do you feel about Isabella being prosecuted, Talia being prosecuted?
What what is your feelings on that you don't have.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
To do.
Speaker 2 (58:23):
You don't know.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
Do you want to go?
Speaker 4 (58:26):
Sure, I'll go, I'll go. I think with you know,
with Isabella, she was his first victim, and you know,
she he he had He got her in a very
vulnerable time and she was so young, and then she
didn't know anything but Larry of life, like the only
(58:50):
life she ever knew was Larry. So I understood why
she went the way that she did. I just I
hope that I hope that as time passes and you know,
she sees the series and sees, you know, how everyone
else is doing that, she starts to make better choices
for herself. Yeah, but I think you know, what Larry
(59:13):
made her do is like is a prison sentence in
and of itself, like having to live with that. Yeah,
and then Talia, I don't, I don't really know. With Talia,
I think she was just so unfortunate to be born
to him that you know, what, what did what choice?
You know, we're talking about choice, like what choice did
(59:34):
she really have? And you know, fighting back against her dad.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
So it's an incredibly arthetic perspective to take. Yeah, yeah, wow, Okay,
do you so the series is Stolen Youth inside the Cult,
It's Sarah Lawrence on Hulu. And do you guys have
anything of your own that you'd like to share in
terms of like social media or any work that you
do or anything. Daniel, go ahead, Daniel. You do poetry, Yeah,
(01:00:00):
I do.
Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
Yeah. I have a memoir that I had written about
this called the London Woods nine, which is a reference
to the dorm that we lived in or where I
first met Larry. I don't really have anything to share
as far our social media. I'm teaching a class with
Stanford's Continuing Education Program on converting your most difficult memories
(01:00:27):
into uh memoir class top before. I find narrative really helpful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Totally, that's awesome and anything.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
So I'm just working and trying to get back into
life right now.
Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Okay, wonderful.
Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
Next time I'll let you.
Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
Know that's a that's a great place to be get
back to life. Thank you guys so much for talking
to us today. Thank you, and have good rest of
your day. O. Hey, Megan, so obviously so much more.
I wish we could have asked them, but for now,
I'm just gonna ask you a question, okay, And the
question is do you think that if you were at
Sarah Lawrence and you met Larry Ray that you would
(01:01:12):
have joined his group.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Oh my god, yes, goodbye forever. I would have been
so deep and getting attention from a grown up. Yeah,
especially one that's so wise. And I love slumber parties.
I love when everybody puts little palettes on the floor
and sleeps together. To just live that way would have
been heavenly. I would have loved the community. I would
(01:01:35):
have loved his like we're getting up at six and
doing push ups together, and I would have just been
sucked into getting my shit together. Uh forever.
Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
You know, it sounds like you should join the military.
Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
I've been thinking about it. Can you imagine.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Sleepovers every night, lots of structure.
Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Laurene men yelling at me. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely
would join. I think you would too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Huh oh, yeah, I think so for sure. I think
like I have a I have a like I would say,
I don't know what adjective to use. I have an
inordinate respect for authority that I really like. I have
been like I am the kid who is terrified of
getting in trouble with the teacher. But not only terrified
(01:02:27):
of getting in trouble with the teacher, but I will
try so hard to make them like me, you know,
like I want the authority figure to like me. And
if a man were to come along at that vulnerable
time in my life and be like, here's what you
gotta do. I know these government people, here's my photo
with real politician like I would be. I would be in.
(01:02:48):
I would be sold, especially because I don't know, like whatever.
I have a history of being drawn to men with
authoritative tones in their voice. And yeah, it would not
have been good for me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
Yeah, I would have been I would have been super
fox with him.
Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Yeah, well, thank god he can't keep doing this to people.
Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Now put him away. Well, thank you for being here
with us for another week of trust Me. We can't
wait to see you again next time, and as always,
remember to follow your gut, watch out for red.
Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
Flags, and ever ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me
as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
With special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song
was composed by Holly amber Church. You can find us
on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me
Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
I'm ula Lola on Instagram, and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
And I Am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
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