Jenny Eliscu - Conservatorships & Freeing Britney Spears

This week’s guest is Jenny Eliscu, journalist, radio host, and producer on Britney vs. Spears, which covered Britney Spears’ infamous conservatorship. She explains how Britney’s struggles in 2008 were used to justify a permanent conservatorship—despite the contradiction of her being deemed too incapacitated to control her own life, yet well enough to tour, record, and generate massive income that her father, whom she barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.

Drawing from decades of reporting, a personal relationship with Britney, and her work on Britney v. Spears, Jenny breaks down the severity of the conservatorship, stripping Britney of the right to use her phone, make medical decisions, or even have a say in who her lawyer was going to be, and where Britney’s fight to end the conservatorship finally landed.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Trust me? Do you trust me?

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Right?

Speaker 3 (00:04):
Ever? Lead you astray tr us.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
This is the truth, the only truth.

Speaker 4 (00:09):
If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't
welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief
and manipulation from two babies one more time Who've actually
experienced it. I'm Lola Blank and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and
today we are interviewing Jenny Ellis, Q journalist, radio host
and producer who's produced documentaries like Britney Versus Spears, which

(00:33):
covered Britney spears infamous conservatorship. She'll explain how britney struggles
in two thousand and eight were used to justify a
permanent conservatorship, despite the contradiction of her being deemed too
incapacitated to control her life yet well enough to tour
record and generate massive income that her father, whom she
barely had a relationship with, was in charge of.

Speaker 5 (00:54):
She'll talk about the severity of the conservator ship that
stripped Britney of the right to use her phone and
make medical decisions or even have a say, and who
her lawyer was going to be, and where Britney's fight
to end the conservatorship finally landed and.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Before we do this interview with Jenny Megan, can you
tell me your cultiest thing of the week.

Speaker 1 (01:15):
Sure.

Speaker 5 (01:16):
My cultiest thing of the week has just been kind
of deep diving into Brittany, you know. And I think
celebrity in and of itself is a cult and we
should really make it illegal.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Just no one can know who anyone is a legalized celebrity.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
In every way, I think it does something that cults
do very intentionally, where it isolates people. You really can't
connect that well to people. Maybe some people can, but
like once you reach that Britney Spears level, it's just
kind of you're isolated.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Let's be real. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
I mean, I don't think you have to be, but
I think it's it seems like it's a very easy,
like fast track to being surrounded only by people who
care about how much money you're making.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yes, men, you're on tour.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
You're not like at home with your family being grounded
or you know, you're like just like constantly going, going, going,
Which it makes sense to me that so many people
do struggle with mental health when they reach those high heights,
especially because you know, I'm sure we've.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Talked about this before.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
But like, you just hear so many stories of people
who like finally get the thing they wanted their whole life,
like the Oscar or the Grammy or whatever it is,
and then they're like the next day they're like, wait,
that's it. That was this thing I was working for
my whole life, and there's nothing on the other side,
like I'm just still myself and the emptiness that can
come from that as well, Like, I think there's a
lot there that can really push people to their breaking point.

(02:51):
And of course it must be said that while it
can probably be very difficult to be a celebrity a
lot of the time, there of course are people who
are actively seeking out that status because of the power
that it affords them, and there are many people in
those positions that do abuse that power. So that's the
flip side of the coin. But you know, for just

(03:11):
like the average nice person who ends up a megastar
when they weren't prepared for it, I think it can
be also very damaging to one's mental health.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
I just think it's a very destabilizing process for people.
And obviously I have been not successful in my attempts
to illegalize celebrity it's just getting worse every day. But
I don't see it as something that really works out

(03:44):
well for most people.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
Yeah, and for the fans too, Like I don't know. Obviously,
being a fan of something or someone is great. It's
great to have passions and interest. But I was talking
about this with someone this week where we were like,
I can't think of a time where I've like looked
at a public figure and been like, I don't care
what they do. I will love them no matter what.
We're like, no, like if they do something shitty, like

(04:08):
that's shitty, you know.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
But there's there's a level.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Of like you know, super fandom where it's like I
don't care. I mean, you see this with a lot
of Donald Trump supporters. I don't care what they do.
I'm going to follow them no matter what, just because
I have this like really intense parasocial relationship with this
public figure.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:29):
I probably have that with like Danny DeVito, honestly the
healthiest one I can think of.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
That sounds perfect. He like has no bad takes for me.
I just like him.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
Oh, I don't think I have it. I don't think
I have it. But also I think, you know, the
upbringing that I had, which involved a lot of like
putting people on pedestals. Obviously, maybe that's a contributing factor
to why that isn't sure how I operate, But in
high school, when I was thirteen, I loved the Misfits
a lot. I'll tell you really, I would go hard

(05:06):
for the Misfits, and in elementary school I would have
gone hard for any spice girl. But then, you know,
it kind of just falls away before we get to
your cultist thing. I will say, you did write a
Britney Spears song, so we just got to always represent Yeah, yes, lovely,
did we will write a Britney Spears song? I did?
So cool?

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Did we will to be?

Speaker 4 (05:28):
And we'll tell you which one in the interview once
the interview begins, What is your cultius thing? Uh, it's dumb,
it also feels it also feels so silly, all of it,
given how crazy America is right now. But you know,
we're just it's just not that episode. We're just not
going to talk about that this episode. America's in a
cult But Okay, I rewatched Fight Club and I forgot

(05:51):
I didn't really register in my memory that Tyler Jrden
was fully a cult leader in that movie that's like
one was happening.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Fight Club is a cult.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
Everything that he says, you know, the people in Fight
Club just like repeat it like robots, you know, and
they do whatever he says, and when he changes his mind,
they're like, yes, there must be a reason. And I'm like,
oh my god. I just never realized the Fight Club
was like fully about a cult. I never put it together.
And it's a great movie and it holds up.

Speaker 5 (06:17):
I will say, yeah, And then what's the thing about
how like the book was just written ironically about how
many are the author was like pointing out, I think
he's gay.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
I think the author is gay.

Speaker 5 (06:27):
And he was pointing out how men's only emotion is
anger and how easily they can be manipulated through that.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Please please fact check me on that he is gay. Wow.

Speaker 5 (06:39):
Yeah, it's it's supposed to be ironic, almost American psycho level.
But much like American psycho. People were like, I'm I'm inspired.

Speaker 4 (06:52):
Yeah, wow. I never I had no idea Chuck Palinik
was gay. I didn't know any of that. It all
makes sense like watching it now, but you know, I
just had this like high school idea of this movie,
and it was like the movie that boys in high
school loved, you know, it was like just like a
cool guy movie. And I'm like, oh my god, no,
it actually is saying so much more than I ever
realized about masculinity and consumerism and capitalism. And listen, go

(07:18):
rewatch fight Club. This is a Fight Club commercial.

Speaker 5 (07:20):
Yeah, even if you like already thought Fight Club was
you know, very layered and saw that happening. Also, I
just think knowing that it's a book, kind of making
fun of how much people would like that movie and
be inspired by it is also funny. And gwennebar Turner,
who wrote American Psycho, was a guest on this podcast,

(07:41):
and that is another amazing movie about kind of a
culty guy in my opinion, and celebrity kind of.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
I know.

Speaker 5 (07:52):
Nah, I'm like, you know, tried, I did try. I
really tried to circle back. And that's fine.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
You're just how it doesn't work.

Speaker 4 (08:01):
Just trying to shout out one of your turner because
we love her and I always shout her out, but
she is unreally but it did not.

Speaker 5 (08:08):
It did not tie back. But do you know what
does tie back tell? Our conversation with Jenny should we
get into it.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
With her, Let's do it. Welcome Jenny ELISQ to trust me.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Thanks for having me. It's great to meet you.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
Thank you for being here. I've been watching your face
for the last twenty four hours. Oh Dad, you are
here with us to talk about Britney Spears, a topic
you happen to know quite a bit about. Can you
tell us when you first interviewed Brittany and how that went.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah. So I first met and interviewed Brittany when I
was working at Rolling Stone as a writer and had
been assigned a cover story on her, and that would
have been wow gee. So I'm going to guess it
was the year two thousand. It was in the year
two thousand ish. You probably know better than maybe in Brittany. Yeah,

(09:13):
and I love her, I mean, you know, I will
say at the outset, I'm coming from the perspective of
deep love for her, having with that first meeting then
many many encounters with her over the years since. So
we really hit it off well. And you know, that
was during a period in her life when everything was

(09:33):
going great and subsequent to that, because we had gotten
on well, like you know, I would be assigned to
her for things of various sizes for the magazine from there,
which you know is kind of standard thing like if
you have a good relationship with someone, when there's a
year People of the Year Q and A, or there's
a Women in Rock issue or there's a whatever, it

(09:58):
would be me. And then, you know, separate from that,
like I was doing some freelancing and so then it'd
be like I got a sign to write about her
for teen Vogue or something, and so there was everywhere,
and yeah, yeah, lots of opportunities to build a rapport
over the years. You know, we at one point we're
getting together separately to talk about like me helping her

(10:18):
write a memoir, you know, long long, long before she
actually did write a memoir. I wrote the liner notes
for her my prerogative greatest hits. I was in her
behind the music, like she would send me thank you
gifts like, you know, so we had a you know,
a true relationship.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
Yeah, I didn't realize how deep that went from from
the doc it sounded like for when you first interviewed
her for Rolling Stone, you were like, this isn't really
my kind of music particularly, but what was it about
her that charmed you?

Speaker 1 (10:44):
What was.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
I mean, the same thing I think that charms everybody
about Brittany, about the sort of what I guess is
seen as her original persona, her aura, you know, of
just sweetness and you know, innocence. I feel like as
a loaded her, especially in the context of Brittany. But yeah,
I mean, I you know, I just really appreciated how

(11:08):
humble and friendly she was. And she was a superstar,
you know, at the peak when I met her, and
you know, although she's younger than me, it was like
I was closer in age to her than a lot
of other folks at big publications who'd been sent to
interview her. And that was something that we chatted about
in our first interview, is she's like, oh, you're young,
Like she was relieved not to have like an old
man coming to interview her, and at that exactly, and

(11:32):
she just she was just so sweet and accessible and
down to earth, and I was surprised and refreshed by it.
So as you say, even though I wasn't into pop music,
I've always been more of just like an indie person,
but I just got it immediately, like this is why
this person is so magnetic.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Had you interviewed many pop stars.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
No. I mean I was still pretty new at Rolling Stone,
and I had come from like an independent music magazine
and was doing like indie rock stuff. So I had
only really done a couple of bigger pieces before that.
Like my first cover story was with the band Stained
It's remember that. Yeah, So that was like not that
long before, you know. I had just gotten to Rolling

(12:15):
Stone in ninety nine, like shortly after the Britney Teletubby
covers when I started there, So it was like, okay, yeah,
I'm going to write about pop people now. So I
think she Proba had done shorter you know, Q and
A type things with like Cisco Thong song guys.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Like, yeah, what a cool career, I like you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:34):
Really.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
So for folks who like maybe weren't following the trajectory
of this conservatorship, like, can you kind of explain when
it began and how and why it happened?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah? Yeah, So the conservatorship began after the era that
everyone knows as famously chaotic for Brittany, you know, after
all of the months in two thousand and seven of
people seeing these outbursts in public of her seeming to
be in a roller coaster phase of her life, the

(13:09):
famous head shaving and you know, driving with the kid
on her lap without the seat belt. You know, all
these things that were just thing after thing after thing,
and people were like, what will let Brittany do next?
What do you think she'll be? You know, there was
a crescendo leading up to her being put in this conservatorship,
including two separate instances when she was brought to the

(13:30):
hospital on a psychiatric hole to fifty one to fifty
and after the first one the wheels got set in motion.
The research, you know, theoretically began then with quote marks
I'm doing with my fingers, because it's believed that her
family had actually begun looking into how to do this
kind of thing even before that, because so much of
the story, as we'll get into, it's about the family.

(13:52):
You know, the conservatorship system is a whole other issue.
But to me zooming out for a minute, it's like
Britney's story and and all of the trauma that's been
inflicted on her is a result of toxic no unintended
family dynamics, and the conservatorship system is already messed up
enough that it could be wielded as a weapon by

(14:14):
her family against her. But to me, ultimately it's a
story of if you have family issues, if your family
is not coming from a good place in terms of
their motives, there's lots of ways they can kind of
mess with you. So yeah, so that was sort of
like after she was hospitalized the first time, it's like
the wheels were set in motion. The research was happening

(14:37):
for how to get a conservatorship, and then after she
was soon again hospitalized, it was like, okay, this is
when we got the temporary, temporary conservatorship and all the
legal processes were underway that eventually later that year in
two thousand and eight, it became permanent.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
So can you explain how a conservatorship works.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Conservatorship, which is also known as guardianship, is, you know,
something that is sought to look out for the interests
of a person who is incapable of handling aspects of
their life. And sometimes it's just their finances, sometimes it's
their health decisions, sometimes it's you know, their sort of
their whole life. And the way it was with Brittany,

(15:21):
and this is the kind of thing that you might
seek for a family member if you have an older
family member who has dementia, and there are various bureaucracies
and things you might want to do for that family
member that you need to have a guardianship in order
to be able to do. You know, I'm sure a
lot of folks know. You can get power of attorney

(15:41):
and you can get an advanced directive healthcare proxy for someone,
but sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes that's not enough in
order in the eyes of bureaucracies and the law to
be able to do the person's taxes or you know,
you need in some cases you need a step up
from that legally, and so that might be in the

(16:02):
sort of most innocuous version where you're like, I'm just
trying to help my aging parent with their stuff and
they have Alzheimer's or whatever, where it's like, unfortunately, for
certain things, power of attorney and healthcare proxy aren't enough.
Then you've got to seek a conservatorship or a guardianship,
right that would give you the power to do so.

Speaker 5 (16:20):
The typical person under the system is not able to
probably like work or.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, I have a family member who's under conservatorship
because of memory issues from a brain injury. It's because
he is like completely incapable of you know, like handling
his affairs or holding a job or anything like that.
How do you have any sense of like how frequent
like someone's under conservatorship, not for a memory issue, but

(16:53):
for just like mental illness.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, I think it's very common. Yeah, you know, I
think it's very common for so, I mean it can
be any number of things, you know, mental health, schizophrenia,
you know, these kinds of things, or any number of
different more physical ailments that impede their ability to take
care of everything that they need to in their life
or understand how to. Yeah, I think we associate it

(17:20):
with older people, and I don't know the actual stats
on what percentage are geriatric population. I'm sure that's a
large portion of I imagine that's a large portion of it.
But you know, it can be any any range of
folks who would otherwise be legally allowed to make their
decisions but aren't. So if you're a child, you know,
you're you're sort of automatic conservatorship.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it makes sense if somebody is
having a psychotic repeated psychotic episodes and they're unable to
take care of themselves or are engaging in risky behavior,
it totally makes sense as a thing that.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Exists as a theory.

Speaker 5 (17:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I mean, and I'm sure much of the time
it's necessary, but of course you run into trouble, particularly
when somebody is very, very wealthy and there's a lot
of money involved and power.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
Yeah. Can you explain what was her relationship with her
dad like before the conservatorship to your understanding.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, I mean, the well documented the relationship with her
dad was not good, and that he was sort of
the secondary parent in terms of during her childhood. He
was an alcoholic and that was the sort of active
problem in the household, and so he was not around
and parenting in the same way that her mom was.
And all of the kind of early getting into the

(18:43):
entertainment business stuff for her was with her mom. Her
mom was the person who was with her traveling, you know,
as her chaperone and guardian and parent, you know, on
site for everything. So and in addition to that fact
that she was traveling with her mom, not her dad,
her dad also was you know, an alcoholic and that
was a problem in the household during her childhood.

Speaker 5 (19:03):
I remember Lynn and her traveling around her mom and
being like, what a life that looks like the perfect life.
Just interestingly, why did he end up being the person?

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Well, I mean he he has a take control energy
about him.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
He's so scary.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah, and the parents, you know, Lynn and Jamie had
split up before the conservatorship happened. They were separated or
I don't know if they were divorced then or frankly
if they ever legally got divorced, but I think they
probably did. But he's the guy who rules with the
with the iron fist, you know. And I think probably

(19:44):
that Lynn thought, oh, I don't want to be the
bad guy, and he can be the bad guy. M
and he you know, at the time that they got
the conservatorship, they had good reason to be concerned about
folks who were in her life who might be not
the best people to have around during this era and

(20:05):
in general. And so Jamie is the one who could
scare off any unsavory characters who might be lingering at
you know. And he is he is a very very
intimidating man.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, you can say that again.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
He's very scary to me, like very scary.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
And who was Lou Taylor?

Speaker 2 (20:27):
And Lou Taylor was Britney's basically like business manager and
is a very sort of big time business manager for
celebrities and artists and stuff like that, and you know,
famously works with the Kardashians.

Speaker 5 (20:40):
It was interesting, like Luke, you know, had this very
Christian oriented take on everything, you know, like Britney's family
wants and Jesus wants the best for her, and it
was like, you can't just throw that in the mix,
like that's not fair.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
I wondered if you had any thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, I mean that that kind of that kind of
Christian religious stuff had been a part of her life
and her family life and belief system, like from her
childhood for sure, So it definitely was part of the
family culture even before lou Taylor got in the mix.
And for whom that's an important value system as well.
I think that that exacerbated the tensions and the inappropriateness

(21:20):
of the people who were on top being the ones
who were on top, because that wasn't the value system
really that was most important to Brittany in her life
at that point, you know, So they really were again
sort of imposing their value system on her that should
not have been.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
Yeah, and once you have that value system, it's a
very narcissistic value system almost because you're like, well, I
have the right answer and I'm working with God, so yeah,
you don't have.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
God wants this according Yeah, yeah, because I said so.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
And also just like again like as you've said, it's like, no,
God wants us to make your money, Brittany. God wants
it to be us. Sort of like that you can't
have you can't have it both ways. I mean they did,
but you shouldn't. The three prongs of what really trapped

(22:19):
Brittany are the family, the original captors in a way,
and then the business which also trapped her whoever that
might be Lou Taylor or any number of people who
came along who made decisions that exacerbated her vulnerability. And
then the legal system, you know, ultimately as the final
pin in the puzzle. For the legal system to support

(22:42):
this conservatorship and support what the family and business folks
were insisting on is what actually made the nightmare go
another level for her. Yeah, but you know, she had said,
she was always saying in that period leading up to
the conservatorship, like one day they're gonna burst through that door,
they being her family, and they're gonna they're gonna lock

(23:04):
me up. You know, they're going to take over. They're
gonna come for me. That was what she believed, and
she was right. They did well.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
She tried to have it, not beat her father initially, right.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
The idea of her trying anything in that phase is like,
it's problematic because no one was listening to her and
they were able to not listen to her because they
characterized her as being unable to make decisions and they
were able to get the conservatorship in place and bat away,
you know, like a cat that's knocking your frickin' glass

(23:38):
off the table. You know, any attempts by her to
say this isn't what I want. I want to pick
my own lawyer, you know, anything like that, by saying, well,
she doesn't have the capacity, and just look at her.
She doesn't have the capacity, and.

Speaker 5 (23:51):
Even saying she has like dementia, correct, like she has dementia.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
She can't choose her own lawyer. And it's like.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
What, yeah, And this I imagine must be a problem
for other folks who get into this conservatorship predicament where
you know, you say they need a conservatorship because they
don't have the capacity to handle their affairs but they say,
I want to pick my own lawyer. And then they say,
but as we've established, they don't have the capacity. Right,

(24:17):
It's like say, blah blah, you know, so then what
well then if you then what yeah, right, Like that's
a trick.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
That's a trick, that's a closed bloop. Not fair.

Speaker 4 (24:27):
It's like the movie scene where someone gets put into
a psych word and they're like, no, but I'm not crazy.
And the more they say they're not crazy, they're like, well,
that's exactly what a crazy person would just yeah, there's
just no way to win really, which I mean not
either here nor there. But I'm just so curious how
that is different state to state, because you have to
imagine there's some someone some states somewhere has some method

(24:49):
to be like I disagree with hamsure or something.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
I mean, I'm sure there's variation state to state, but
you know, the best case scenario for the way it's
supposed to work is that the courts impose the least
restrictive option on the person, so that if and there
are levels of conservatorship, you know, so if you're thinking
of good faith, you know, in the legal system, like

(25:15):
the good faith outcome is that the courts and the
people who are asking for conservatorship are offering the least
restrictive option where the person still retains as many of
their rights as possible. But we're truly just here to
help with blank this one thing. And again, it sort
of comes down to this combination of how fucked up

(25:35):
the legal system is in whatever state or county, whoever
is petitioning for it, how problematic they are in relation
to the person, and then the person's individual situation. But
the courts are supposed to advocate for the person to
retain as many of their rights and as much of
their autonomy as possible. And you know, I think in

(25:55):
the case of Brittany, two of the factors that we're
huge with the timing of this and in general, one
is we all remember that Brittany was creating chaos in
and around her home here in Los Angeles. By it's
not her fault. Paparazzi were hounding her, but because she
was willing to take them on high speed chases around

(26:16):
the mountains, that was a problem for the area. That
was a problem. You know, that would be a problem
for taxpayers, right, It's scary, it's dangerous, there's a political
pressure on judges who are elected officials to keep their
constituents happy. And if you're wealthy constituents who are like that,
Brittany's got to be taken off the streets. You're more
likely to take her off the streets by the pup and.

Speaker 5 (26:38):
She needs to be taken off the streets because the
way they were attacking her and hounding her. I mean,
I couldn't live a single day of my life like that.
And it's so reminiscent of Princess Diana. Yeah, you know,
it's just wild how every step was a problem, I mean,
just attacked.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, exactly, No, And no one would argue that the
paparazzi should be put in a conservatorship, even though what
they're doing de uys logic. But you know, the other
problem is just and this continues to be a problem,
is us the audience is.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Us, Oh, no, we're doing it right now.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Yeah, the I mean, you know, not what we're doing
right now. But the thing everyone else does all the time,
even after she's gotten out of the conservatorship and leading
up to it long before, is to put this lens
on her, that is this unfair lens that strips her
of free will and you know, doesn't credit her with
intelligence and autonomy, and that just objectifies her to an

(27:39):
extent that we can be like, no, I'd rather have
I'd rather have her dad pulling the strings than a
free Brittany, you know, because I don't know if I
understand this woman who shaved her head or who is this?
This isn't what we signed up for, This isn't what
we want her to be. So if this is going
to make her blonde, and then I guess we'll just

(28:01):
accept that she really needed it. And I still even
getting ready to meet with you all, I was like
reading some you know, Reddit bored about her memoir and
people reacting and I see this stuff all the time
of people saying, well, she she needed this, or she
she still needs somebody to you know, everyone has these opinions,
not everyone, but you know that the conservatorship she did

(28:22):
need something to happen, And I don't know. I still
feel like there's this level of us pathologizing her that
is disturbing to me. And I think that people, even
with the best intentions, don't see how fucked up it
is that when they look at her, they think she's
something's wrong with her? Like what something's wrong with you

(28:44):
that you look at a person that is a stranger
that you don't know, and you're willing to just believe
all of the narrative that's been constructed by folks who
don't wish her well to decide, oh, yeah, something's wrong
with her though, like no, are she's kind of like
like because we have had guests on before who well
one guest who is like part of a fandom, and

(29:07):
she found herself to be in kind of a cult,
remember that guest?

Speaker 5 (29:11):
Is it kind of like we as a as a
society need to stop making figures and pop culture are
cult leaders because then we lose perspective on what is
right what is wrong And I'm putting quotation marks you know,
what they should do, and then it's an unfair placement
on them and we don't know them.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Is that kind of the Yeah, some of it.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
I mean, I just think it's this objectification ultimately that
we you know, if only we would treat them like
cult leaders almost because then you know, we would listen
to them when they say, hey, I want to be
free or something. You know, it's that we strip them
of any free will, and we make them into these

(29:54):
like you know, Barbie dolls that we can move around
and be like I want them to be doing this
for that now.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
And I mean, I think there are a lot of
fans who are just genuinely concerned for her safety. Like
I you know, we've seen a lot of people online
who are who like, yeah, for sure want her to
be free and also want her to be safe. I
just want to speak like those people definitely exist, you
know what I mean, Like.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Right, I just would push back on that. Why do
we think she's unsafe?

Speaker 4 (30:17):
I think I think it's hard for people to look
at behavior that seems different from you know, how someone
would typically act online or whatever, and not think that
there's like something happening mental health wise, you know what
I mean, Like we don't know, but like hopefully whatever
help she needs, if she needs it, she's getting it.

(30:38):
I'm not the one to say what that is or
what that looks like. It's certainly not her father having
a concernship over her.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yeah, I mean, am I being Devil's advocate a tiny bit?
But but no, I just think that any other person
on social media who were to post videos that Britney
posts that we don't have some elaborate backstory about. We
would not necessarily look at it and say, I hope
she's safe. I hope she's getting help. We might say,
ooh spicy or quirky, or like, you know that interesting,

(31:11):
Oh she seems like fun. You know, there's different ways
we would look at it. It's because we know too
much or we think we know too much about what's
quote unquote really going on, that people project this thing
onto her that I hope she gets help or she
needs help when possibly and again, we don't know her diagnoses,
whatever they may or may not be, although people like

(31:32):
to speculate about that, what if she's just neurodivergent? And
if she's neurodivergent? Don't we want her to have the
same autonomy and freedom from our perceptions and assumptions that
any other neurodivergent nor me would get from us. But
because we've co opted her and her brand so much,

(31:54):
people feel perfectly comfortable saying like some I don't know,
I wonder what's wrong with her? Like, yeah, the whole
the whole way it's framed to me is so judgmental
in a way that I thought, you know, as a society,
we're not judgmental about neurodivergence, like we everyone is free

(32:14):
to be who they are, and it doesn't you can't
just come in and take someone's rights away because they're different,
And we can't force people to take medication they don't
want to take, just so that they are who we
thought we wanted them.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
To be, right right, you know what.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
It reminds me of a little bit the documentary Mother God.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Have you seen it?

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I haven't and you haven't.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Oh do you remember it? Lola?

Speaker 5 (32:35):
Yeah. Well she's kind of like put in this position
and they're like you are God, you are everything. And
then she's like, actually, I don't. I don't think that
I am, and they're like, no, you are and you
will be. And it's it's kind of like once you
get into this point and it's like, guys, you can
kind of be like, you know what, I'm shaving my head.

Speaker 1 (32:52):
I don't want to do it anymore.

Speaker 5 (32:53):
I'm out, and the people are like, no, you're gonna
You're gonna be what we need.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
I mean people always do this thing where they say,
like with celebrities or whatever, if they complain at all
or they fight back against it, like this is what
you signed up for, you know kind of thing. Yeah,
and then you want to say like, no one knows
what they signed up for, you know. It's not like
when you signed up to be a bartender and you're like, well,
you knew you were going to have to be here
a little close, Like, no matter how ambitious you might be,

(33:23):
especially as legitimately a fucking child, like exactly, but anyone
who pursues fame, you don't. You can't know until you
get it how disturbing it can be, especially if you
have a certain kind of nervous system, or you have
any neurodivergence or anything else going on that you're like,
I wasn't expecting it to be so.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Scared, so regulated.

Speaker 4 (33:44):
Wanting to be in movies or be a singer doesn't
necessarily mean that you want people staring at you and
scrutinizing your every move every single.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Hour of every day.

Speaker 4 (33:53):
Like those are different things, Like they can go hand
in hand, but it doesn't mean you want the second thing.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (34:01):
Yeah, and then it just becomes like kind of a
parent thing, like I do see it more and more now,
kids who are young people who are pursuing a career
and are successful and you just don't see them outside
of that atmosphere, like they're not paparazzi as much.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah, I think the paparazzi economy like is dwindled because
of you know, social media and the fact that people
document themselves and so there's not as much of that,
Like the only the only way you're going to get
a pick of Ariana is if you follow her. It's
like if you know, I think folks have figured out
like if I post enough of myself, there's not that
desperation to to get that stuff.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
How much was the picture of Britney Spears going for
like a good picture?

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Oh snap, I don't, I don't. I don't actually know.
I would be making up some impressive figures.

Speaker 5 (34:49):
I mean I do, I do believe in and the
duck it's set up hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Yeah, I think that would probably have been right when.

Speaker 4 (34:55):
It was like, yeah, when it was like the most
controversial era where everyone wanted now was the Internet.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
It's just Internet, yeah, yeah, But.

Speaker 5 (35:02):
I did like the reference of the paparazzi who said,
like this attracts adrenaline junkies and gambling addicts, and I
was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense that
these are the kind of people that are swarming totally exeatally.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
I mean, it's all men, and it just to think
about how scary it must be for any non man
to be harassed by these aggressive, greedy men who are
chasing you and pushing and screaming at you, trying to
get a reaction. Yeah, just trying to get a reaction.
And if you have any traumatic history with aggressive men,

(35:36):
and now there's a bunch of aggressive men yelling at
you and chasing you.

Speaker 5 (35:39):
Oh yeah, it didn't really alcoholic dad, Yeah, tell us
about the bathroom signature.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yes. So, as I was saying earlier, like she tried
to get her own lawyer in the early days of
the conservatorship, that was maybe one way she was going
to be able to get out of it. Was like,
if she can choose her own lawyer rather than having
a lawyer designated by the court and her parents signing
off on it, then she can convey to that lawyer

(36:07):
I don't want this, this is unfair, I don't need this,
and that person would advocate for her because she chose them,
and so there were multiple attempts by her, except that
everyone in charge was trying to keep her from doing
these things, keeping her from having a phone, keeping her
from being monitoring all of her communications, so that they
could prevent something like that, and ultimately say, well, she

(36:30):
doesn't have again, she doesn't have the capacity to choose
a lawyer, so this is invalid. Even though she somehow
got away and met up with Adam streisand one of
the lawyers who was up for representing her and taking
it on, and you know, sort of instantly they would
find a way to get it thrown out. And so
that had happened a few times in early two thousand
and eight, And in two thousand and eight, I wrote

(36:53):
another Rolling Stone cover story about Brittany. When I was
trying to set up the interviews, sort of I hadn't
followed that closely. I had sort of taken a break
from paying attention to what was going on because the
minutia of it. As someone who really like even though
we just had this journalistic relationship, I really cared about
her and I didn't like seeing the way she was

(37:13):
being treated, and so I just if I wasn't on assignment,
I didn't need to be like in the ins and
outs of it. And then I got assigned to do
another cover story with her, and she was going to
have her album come out, her her Circus album, and
I was like, Okay, we're doing it. Me and Brittany,
we're going to do the thing. I reached out to
the people at the label, the publicist, let's set up

(37:35):
some time, and I started hearing, Oh, there's this conservatorship,
so things that I had never had to do before
with someone who again, I had had all of these
interactions with her, I had been with her on our
own talking about these other projects. They're like, oh, you
have to submit your questions ahead of time at Rolling
Stone back then, that was unheard of, baby, And then

(37:58):
well it was just truly on journalist stick, like you
don't you're not allowed to see my questions, Like it
goes against all of the rules of journalism. You don't
see your questions ahead of time. And I reached out
to my editor and I was like, well, you're going
to need to talk to them because they're saying this
crazy talk. And he was like, yeah, you're going to
have to do that, and I was like what Because
Britney sells magazines. They wanted to get the cover, so

(38:21):
they were willing to accommodate it. And then the next
thing was okay, you're gonna and they would strike some
questions from the list, you know. I remember I was
going to ask her about the presidential election, actually for
the two thousand and eight presidential election. That was one
of the things. They're like, no, don't ask with that.
I wouldn't love to know that answer. I know, right,
her manager has to be in the room for the interview. Again,

(38:43):
that's not allowed. You're not allowed to insist on that
in true journalism, you know. So I was like, oh, well,
this is going to be the one my editor is
not going to say yes to that. They said yes
to that. So at every turn I'm like, but.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
It's me and Brittany, We've done this, she as me.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
At every turn they would be like, sorry, concerned, it's
not me, it's the conservatorship. And that made me feel like,
what the fuck is the conservatorship? I need to figure
out what's going on here, and did a bunch of
research and ended up writing this cover story that was
sort of, you know, not to say it was critical
of the conservatorship, but it was sort of raised some
questions about whether it was over the top, and how

(39:18):
could someone who was unwell enough to need a conservatorship
be well enough to be putting out an album. You know,
that's the central problem with the conservatorship is that if
you're sick enough to need one, you're too sick to work,
and they kept making her work. So in reporting that story,
I had developed relationships with some of my sources, including
the exiled, disgraced former manager Sam Lutfi, who say what

(39:42):
you will, Yes, very problematic, definitely shady, definitely did some
things that were beyond unprofessional, but also was a scapegoat
and did have Britney's best interests at hard in some ways,
and had some compelling information about thisttempt to get lawyers
and how that would have been good for her and

(40:03):
why it was fucked up that they wouldn't let her.
So in early two thousand and nine, he was sort
of still hearing from her and reaching out to her
and trying to find a lawyer who would take the
case even though it had been ineffective previously, and found
a lawyer who was up for it, and all that
had to happen was that Brittany had to sign this
legal document saying I want this person to be my lawyer,

(40:26):
this guy John Anderson. And how were we going to
get we because I was in the mix, like just
being like I kind of try and help her to
sign this thing when no one could reach her. You couldn't.
There was no way to get access to her.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
No telephone, no telephone.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
They would have to sneak her at telephone. Someone would
have to slip it in her bag.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
At the from going to like the biggest pop star
to no car, no phone.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
It's so wild, like living in jails.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Meaning yeah, there was one moment where she had gotten
someone had slipped her a cell phone, and then she
was talking on the cell phone, but she had the
baby monitor on and the the nanny or something heard
Brittany talking on a phone on the baby monitor and
ratted her out to her dad, and so they took
the phone away. You know, she was on her way
out of the house and they grabbed the purse and
they opened the purse and they take the phone. It's like, okay,

(41:15):
got to get her another phone. So anyway, Lutvey coordinated
this meeting, you know through some phone that had been
snuck to her that you know Jenny Ellisk you remember her,
She's going to meet you at whatever day it was.
That she was going to this hotel. Okay, that's where
the meat's going to happen. You'll go and that she'll
you'll see her. You'll go meet her in the bathroom.

(41:37):
She'll have these papers to get this lawyer and you'll
sign them.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
You were you were in a Britney Spears heist.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Honestly it felt very heisty. Yeah, I was like, am
I in a movie?

Speaker 1 (41:47):
This is insane?

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yeah, that's truly scary, scary shit.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah. The fact that, well, first of all, and nothing
came of that, right.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
Nothing came of it. Yeah, exactly like she signed it,
she said thank you. She to me seemed to know
what she was signing, and it was scary for both
of us. She was scared. I was scared. I'd like
sneaked down the stairs while I was there. Paparazzi was
getting the shit beat out of them by security guards
in the parking garage downstairs. So when I got back
from that, Luffy was like, did you see police while

(42:17):
you were there? I'm like, oh, God, know why and
he's like, because it turns out, look, you know is
on online already that this thing had happened anyway, Wow,
they the same thing happened. They well, they said it
was not her signature. Was the first sort of thing
they would say, that's not her signature, that's a forgery,
because they couldn't figure out how and when it had
happened then, and even if it is her signature, she

(42:38):
doesn't have the capacity to choose a lawyer anyway. So
within you know, a couple of days, it was like,
well that was for naught.

Speaker 5 (42:47):
Yeah, yeah, if she would have gotten a lawyer who
wasn't being paid for her to be in a conservator ship,
what do you think the outcome could have been.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
I mean, you know, it could have been what wol
ended up happening in twenty twenty one when Matthew Rosengart
took over as her lawyer, and there was momentum toward
the conservatorship ending at that point for various reasons, but
definitely Rosengart like pushed it to the finish line to
get her out of it. And Adam streisand like he
was motivated and he's a great attorney, and he thought

(43:20):
that it was unfair, and.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Which one was Adam stred He was like the first guy.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
He was the first guy who she snuck off and
met with in early two thousand and eight, and is
related to Barbara Streis. Oh my god, I think they're
like cousins or something. Anyway, he a powerful lawyer. He
was up for taking it on, understood why it was unfair,
and when they were like, you know, she has lack
of capacity, and people just dropped it, and I get it.

(43:46):
They could really make a case against her that you
don't want to. You don't want to take up with Brittany.
You don't want to. She's really messed up. She could
have gotten out of it if somebody had stuck with it.
She could have gotten out of it in two thousand
and eight, you know, once they made it quote unque
permanent later that year. This is before the bathroom thing.
But when they made it permanent, that was sort of

(44:06):
like when it was like, oh shit, permanent, m how
are you gonna on some you know what was she? Yeah,
you're gonna say the rest of this ladies.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
Wow, that's so wild, especially because like I don't know,
like we've we've talked to We know a number of
people who've had like psychotic episodes, for example, and they
come out of it and then they live normal lives
and it's, you know, it's fine, Like maybe sometimes it'll
happen again, but like then once that episode is over again,
they're perfectly fine and capable of living their lives. And

(44:37):
those are people who are like full break from reality,
you know. Like not to say that it's always fine after,
because of course there's spectrum of experiences, but like the
idea that like if somebody were having some kind of
mental health episode, that they should be trapped for all
eternity after it is just just seems like a wild

(44:58):
misunderstanding of how they work, I guess.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah. And then also the person if the person who's
designated to be their conservator is the last person they
ever would have chosen, right, that should that should be
that should have some influence, even if they're determined to
be lacking in certain capacity. It's like to say, Okay,
I don't want it to be my dad who scares
the shit out of me, right, Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
Yeah, it's it's surprising to me that they chose somebody
who had a very clear, documented history of alcoholism to
be the one who was, and that she brought that up.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
And setting aside the alcoholism, like it's just like in
a family that there's issues here and there with everyone,
but like he was the person in the family she
had the worst relationship with. So alcoholic are not like
you should not have to be put under control of
your least favorite person in your family, the person in
your family you're the most scared of, you know. And
the great example, the most evocative example, and this is

(45:54):
in Britney's memoir of Jamie being what were what I
use a beast? You know, is this moment when Jamie says,
I'm Brittany. Now you know, he's you know, somebody is
sort of asking, he's making decisions, and somebody is like, well, Brittany,
and he says, I'm Brittany. Now horror movie. It's horror movie. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
Also, to be clear, I'm not saying alcoholics are you know,
I'm saying I'm an alcoholic recovery. I have many, many
people in my life who I love, no get yeah, totally,
you know, they're they're picking the person with the worst relationship.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
It's also had this history, you know, all.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
The factors that overlapped in this case. That that I
think is why it was so fucked and why she
was trapped in it for so long and why you know,
it's not any of them on their own, like, but
it had to be all of the factors. It had
to be, you know. You know, honestly, I think they
part of what they were so scared of, they being
her family was her substance use. And you know, sometimes

(46:58):
people who have histories with substances them selves are even
more defensive about other people using. And you know, the
idea that Brittany was using and that they had to
take control of that. You know, I think some of
Jamie's reactivity to that was because of his history with alcoholism,
to be like, you know, you don't want your kid
going down that path, and so you're like, I'm not, No,

(47:19):
Britney's not going to be on drugs.

Speaker 5 (47:22):
So do you think there was like a nugget of
goodwill in his heart? Because to me, he's just pure
evil and I'm like, it's like, I'm going to take
all your money and I'm Britney spears.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Now, No, it's not so much goodwill. I think it's
just that conflicting, Like, I think his sort of psychological
portrait was full of conflict, and I think his own
self loathing about his history as an alcoholic made him
irate about her using substances and project some of it. Also,

(47:50):
as you know, you've read her memoir, like, and it's
in Linz's memoir as well, that Jamie had a traumatic
childhood where his own mother, you know, he had a
sibling who who died, you know, as an infant, and
his mom ultimately committed suicide. She actually shot herself on
the child's grave when Jamie was a child, Like, my god,

(48:12):
my heart breaks for him that he had that experience.
You know, it doesn't it doesn't mean that that's why
he did Britney what he did. But I do have
empathy for him. But I think all the decisions he
made were bad, and I think that it's not just
his own trauma it was it's greed and a lot
of greed surrounding her, coming at her from all sides.

Speaker 5 (48:35):
How much did he get paid to be Britney Spears.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Shit, I forget, honestly, I forget how much it was.
It was a lot of money, though, Yeah, like hundreds
of thousands of dollars a year. Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
And what about the attorney. How much money was he making?

Speaker 2 (48:50):
Yeah, I mean the attorney, the various attorneys were making
a lot of money as well. Yeah, and that's you know,
money Britney was paying them.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
Yeah, so highly profitable basically to keep her in this conservativeship,
and not just because they get paid to do it,
but also like I'd love for you to talk about
her being compelled to keep working and like what that
actually looked like and how it became like insisted upon.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Yeah, you know, she she made i think four albums
during the course of the conservatorship, So four albums in
thirteen years, which is the kind of pace at which
you know, Adele might make albums four and thirteen years,
not in a conservatorship. So you know, she really was kept.
And of course obviously she did X Factor as a
judge and she had her Vegus show, so she was
working a lot. Might she have autonomously chosen to do

(49:40):
that stuff because she loved singing and making music, Yes,
she might have, but she would not have worked as
hard as they made her work given the choice, because
she wanted to get married and she wanted to get
pregnant and you know, the keeping her working. I think
maybe if you attribute good motives like they thought, oh
this will be good for her, it'll be help for

(50:00):
her to keep working. But if you attribute the worst
motives to them, it was so that they could keep
earning at the highest rate possible by drawing profits on
her working and sitting around Brittany is not going to
make them as much money.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
Yeah, some of the stuff in the documentary of people
talking about how she needed to work to make a
certain amount of money or whatever really stressed me out.
Like we were saying before you got here that it
felt like a horror movie, like someone is taking over
your life, is making all of your decisions for you,
and is forcing you. I mean, like again, yes, it
seems like she really loves what she does, So I'm
not saying that she didn't love what she does, but

(50:34):
like kind of seemed like she just didn't have a choice.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Though, now, let's like put.

Speaker 5 (50:37):
The lotion in the basket level crazy, like her dad
is like taking her skin and wearing her and being like.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
She literally didn't have a choice. No, you're exactly right,
she truly had no choice. She was in the eyes
of the law like a child and had no rights
and could make no decisions on her own, and they
controlled the entire environment and everything she knew and thought
was based on She was sheltered, She was kept away
from information that could have helped her, and she only

(51:06):
knew what they wanted her to know because she didn't
have access to the phone and the internet, and so,
in a very culty way, yes, she was cut off
from the outside world and all the decisions were made
for her.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Yeah, can you talk more about that, Like, what are
some of the things she was not allowed to do
that didn't make sense?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Well, I mean one of the main things. And she
in her really powerful testimony from that summer of twenty
twenty one when she spoke to the court, you know,
she talked specifically about how they had put an IUD
in her, and she Brittany has always wanted to have
more kids. It's you know, she loved being a mom,
she loved having kids. She wanted to have more kids.
After the boys say what we will about the choices

(51:48):
of partners and how that might have played out if
she had had kids with them, but nonetheless her choice right,
and of course they didn't want her to get pregnant
and she was forced to have an IUD implanted. I
don't know in any other conservatorship situation if some other
person like if that, if that would ever be allowed,

(52:10):
and I worry that it would be, you know, y
with someone else who had been deemed to lack the
capacity where they would say, well, we don't want or
if they could be forced to have an abortion if
they got pregnant that they didn't want to have, Like
I fear that that that that might be true for
anyone in that situation.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
So I'm Brittany, I'm living in I'm living in my
house and I have no phone and if I want
to go to the store to buy my In the documentary.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
There was like she couldn't. She said, you couldn't go to.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
The store to buy her kids some books, Like she
would have to ask for permission and wait for the
money and wait for approval to just do basic human
things to go for a drive. It just seems so extreme,
Like there's levels of conservatorships, like there could be financial
conservatorships or whatever, but like to not be able to
do anything anything.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think yes, from legal experts
I've read talking about this, they say that someone who
presented like Brittany, who was capable of working to the
level that she was visibly capable of working, would never
quote unquote have the courte approve of conservatorship. This this
intense and this extreme that no normal quote quote person

(53:24):
would have had this this strict kind of stuff imposed
on them. But again, it goes back to this sort
of like we've objectified her beyond comparison to a point
where it's like, oh, but this is this is different,
though this is different. One of the fucked up though,
like double standards, was that at the beginning of the conservatorship,
it was like, we can't get insurance on a tour

(53:45):
if she's not in a conservatorship. That was some of
what her family said. We only did it because the
only way to get insurance on a tour is to
put her in a conservatorship. But if she again, if
she needs a conservatorship, then should she be touring?

Speaker 1 (53:58):
Yeah, exactly, her stress full thing in the world. To
go on a tour. That's not good for your mental health. No,
I mean that's a tour is like people crack on tour.

Speaker 5 (54:07):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 (54:11):
Except financially, Jamie was making money as her conservator that
he would not be making if he was not her conservator.
And so what do you think the goal was of
the level of restriction for him, Like, what did that achieve?

Speaker 2 (54:26):
I think a combination of making sure that nothing threatened
the conservatorship, i e. If she's left alone with someone
from the outside, they could fight for her to get
free if she has enough time with someone. This is
why they made all her boyfriends sign a very extensive contract,
you know, background checks and then they would have to

(54:48):
sign a contract was super extensive that would give you
would have access to they would have access to the
person's email, you know, because anything that might threaten the
ongoing nature of the conservatorship and the ongoing profit they
were trying to avoid. So that's some of the restrictions
are that some of the restrictions are and this is
my opinion, you know, to punish her just to be cruel,

(55:13):
purely for the sake of cruelty.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Maybe her dad was jealous.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Yeah, I think there is just a lot. I think
there is a lot in there.

Speaker 5 (55:21):
He wanted to He actually wanted to be Britney Spears.
It's the creepiest thing I've ever heard.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
It's so culty in that, like, you know, that's exactly
what cult leaders do. You can't talk to people on
the outside. They're evil, You can't. I'm going to restrict
your information. I'm going to prevent you from talking to
anybody because they might lead you to question the power
that I have over your life. And nothing should be
allowed to threaten that power. So no, you can't have

(55:50):
friends we don't approve of.

Speaker 5 (55:51):
And my power is permanent and forever, forever to eternity.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah, to an extent that to any outsider seems where
why would you? Why would you treat people that way
who are so in a cult, so devoted to you?
You know, at least with Brittany and Jamie, there was
this like, oh, you're pushing back, you're rebelling, and so
now I'm punishing you, and you're rebelling and so now
I'm punishing you, kind of vicious cycle. Yeah, so how

(56:18):
did she?

Speaker 1 (56:19):
Are you ready for this? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (56:21):
For the freedom question? You want to ask your vanilla question?
I do, but I don't know if it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
I'm here.

Speaker 5 (56:28):
I love a crazy question, Okay, And if you don't
answer what does Britney spirits smell like? Because I imagine
it's like vanilla and a hint of I don't know,
Victoria's secret perfume or something beautiful.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Yeah, I love that question. Oh good, Yes, And I
feel like an asshole that I don't really remember or
that it didn't rate with me enough to retain an
old factory nothing not, I mean everything about her during
the first portion of of like my encounters with her

(57:05):
was super wholesome and cute and exactly what you would
would exactly what you are, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
just like messy ponytail and like comfy but cute outfit
and like, you know, this isn't an answer to your question,
but it's a very My favorite cute Britney story is
like on occasion when I was interviewing her, and Felicia,
her famous assistant also adorable, yeah, had gone to get

(57:28):
Britney wanted quiz Nos. She wanted quiz Nos, and Felice
went and got her her favorite sandwich from quiz Nos
and it comes back. And they had asked if I
want anything, I did, and I was just there to
do an interview and Brittany's eating sandwich and She's like,
oh my gosh, it's so good. You want to bite
And I was like, I'm okay, I'm not going to
bite your sandwich. Britney spears, you know. She was just like,

(57:51):
you have to it's so good, you have to have
a bit, you have to have a bunch. And she
made me take a bite of her quiz nose.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Oh my god, how was it?

Speaker 2 (57:57):
It was yummy? But I was also just I was
just like, wow, like that's how. That's so sweet, like
just normal and Brittany Jean, Yes, I'll take a bite
of your quiz nose if you insists.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Oh my god, quis nos has never gotten such a great.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
I'm like, yeah, I need one right now. I'm like,
what what.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
Is quiz nos? Yeah? Okay, that that was all I
needed to know about that. You can go to the
final question. Okay, are we all talking like Brittany now? Well?

Speaker 4 (58:27):
Oh, by the way, I wrote a Britney song in
twenty thirteen. What was happening with her in twenty thirteen?

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Dear, Oh my gosh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
It was her best year. It was the Smurfs two era.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
I do have one other very cute, funny Britney story
if you have time for it, which is when we
were talking about trying to do a memoir. So I
had a couple of like meetups with her, kind of
just us, and she was in New York and I
was at her hotel and the TV was on while
we were chatting, and American Idol had just finished, and
at that time, House, you know, the medical drama would
come on after and you know the opening credits, and

(58:58):
that had that as attack tear Drop is the theme
song is playing, and it's classic medical drama visuals where
it's like pages from the anatomy book and X rays
and stuff, and Brittany's like all scrunched up, head tilted,
like confused Britney face, and she's like, she's like, why
are they Why are they showing skeletons? Skeletons? And I

(59:22):
was like, oh, because House is coming on. She's like huh.
She's still sort of like what And I was like, oh,
you know, it's like a medical drama and she's still like,
all right, but why skeletons? Though I love you, I
love you, I've gotten to the end of the why
chain of answers. I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Because they're in the body.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
I don't know why skeletons though.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
Cute.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yeah, anyway, I love knowing that.

Speaker 4 (59:49):
Yeah, how did so how did you finally get free
after it was it thirteen years?

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah? Yeah, well, I guess the series of events my
understanding of the series of events. You know, there's a
couple of versions. One version is the dad Jamie was
sick and that that was causing Britney to stress and
that this catalyzed a series of things. The other version
of the story is that Brittany they were talking about
another Vegas show, the show was supposed to end, she

(01:00:14):
didn't want to do anymore, and when she found out
that they were planning more, she started to quote unquote
act out, i e. Say, I don't want to do it.
I'm not going to do it. And so in order
to punish her for that, she was committed into this
rehab where she was, as she's talked about, given lithium
and really just you know, medically restrained. And that's when

(01:00:38):
you know, there was this sort of the information leaked
that she had been put in this rehab. That and
this is when a lot of the Free Britney movement
that had been going on for years started to surge
and public awareness of it started to surge, and so
in spring of twenty nineteen, everyone was talking about what's
going on with Britney. Wait a minute. All of a
sudden people started to quest and wait a minute, this

(01:01:02):
is this okay? That she's in this conservatorship. You know,
all these years later is some you know, attitudes change
and people were starting to open their eyes to like,
maybe this is too restrictive or maybe me I'm sitting
over there, I'm just like, yeah, hello, I been saying this,
saying this in two thousand and eight. But it's great
that it was fans and the public and this online
movement of people who really brought it home as much

(01:01:25):
as there were other factors. Whether it was just the
timing and you know, the New York Times documentary kicked
open a door certainly, and just all of the renewed
focus on it, and eventually, you know, Rosengart getting in
there and really advocating for her. All of these things
led to it. But I think the public pressure from
Free Brittany is a huge part of why the same

(01:01:48):
judge who for years had been rubber stamping it to
continue finally you know undertook to end and Jamie the
ACLU were like, we support Brittany. And finally Jamie, who
has been in failing health and had been like said okay, yeah,
I'll step down. And so it just then momentum finally
built toward it ending, you know that fall. Wow, and

(01:02:10):
her testimony, right, her testimony was so powerful, so powerful?

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Oh yeah, And what did it feel like when you
found out?

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
I mean just crying, happy, thrilled. Working on the documentary
that I was a part of Britney Versus Spears, Like,
was so emotional and intense and traumatic and scary but fulfilling.
And so there were so many moments. I mean, her
testimony just just broke me, you know, for sure, Like yeah,

(01:02:42):
but and when Jamie stepped down, I was just like,
I think it's happening. I think it's happening. You know,
that was major moment. But yeah, I definitely cried a
lot of tears of joy for her when it ended.

Speaker 4 (01:02:57):
Yeah. I hope it sheds a light for people on
how conservatorships can be abused.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
I like, would that we could all have a.

Speaker 4 (01:03:05):
Free Prinney movement if you know, if somebody is being
controlled to that degree when they shouldn't be.

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
But I'm so.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
I mean, thank God, thank God for all those fans
and podcasts and journalists and people like you like fighting
for that for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Yeah, I hope we don't do it to her again,
you know. I hope that people will just take a
step back when they're looking at some something she puts
online and ask themselves before they say, what's what's wrong
with her? Or think that thought, to just pause and
imagine it's your kooky cousin or you know, it's just
someone not Britney TM, you know, and think like maybe

(01:03:44):
just maybe she should just be free to be her
and we've gotten enough, We've extracted enough from her at
this point. Let's just let her live her life comfortably
however she wants.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
M Well, that answered. It's my next question, which was
what do you wish for her going forward? But I
like that answer.

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
Can you just tell us where people can find your
work at, both with this documentary and others.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Yeah, the documentary is on Netflix. It's called Britney Versus
Spears and it's still there. It's there from twenty twenty one.
And I have a podcast called LSQ, which is like
the phonetic version of my last name, and it's you know,
long form interviews with music artists, and it's in all
the different places you find podcasts. And then I also
am a host on SERIOUSXM, on Serious XMU and on

(01:04:24):
the Spectrum every damn day.

Speaker 1 (01:04:27):
Hell Aiaz, thank you so much for joining us, Thanks
for having me. Wow wow Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
Indeed, Megan, I think that the question today is whether
you would want to have the level of stardom and
extreme celebrity that Britney Spears has had in her life.

Speaker 5 (01:04:50):
Would I join the cult of stardom?

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yes? Absolutely?

Speaker 4 (01:04:54):
No. Really, what if this podcast got so big that
it was the I guess podcast that had ever existed,
you still say no, Well, I.

Speaker 5 (01:05:05):
Don't think a super big podcast is ever going to
have the level of people freaking out that a pop
star has.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
That would be what scares me.

Speaker 5 (01:05:16):
I do want to be successful, but I really value
being invisible.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05:23):
You know, my roommate and I were just talking about.
She was just saying how much she loves going to
the coffee shop and not getting dressed up because it's
like nobody can see her and that's like such a
nice anonymous feeling. And I do think we take that
for granted as people who are not megastars, because if
you do switch over and get to that point like yeah,
then suddenly everyone has an opinion on any little thing

(01:05:47):
you said.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Making a mistake is like you're fucked. Yeah, you just.

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
Don't get the same grace that you would give like
a friend, you know, and yeah, just it's a level
of scrutiny that seems really scary, and yeah, stalkers and like,
but I also want to be successful obviously, but I
want to be successful, I think, like in a very
specific way.

Speaker 5 (01:06:07):
Sam, But yeah, it is that balance of like I
want to be successful, I want to live up to
my potential. I also want to run my errands and
not worry that somebody's going to take a picture of
me and be like, she looks like shit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
I also don't want that much power.

Speaker 4 (01:06:27):
That's too scary if like if like yeah, thousands or
god forbid, millions of people like listen to what you say,
and you what if you say the wrong thing?

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
What if you guide them in the wrong direction? That's terrifying.

Speaker 4 (01:06:39):
You know, Like having influences is great for championing, you know,
important issues, but then also like we're all imperfect and
like what if I.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Go if my influence wrong, Like that's terrifying, right.

Speaker 5 (01:06:52):
I guess that's important to remember is that you know,
everybody's opinions are ever evolving. So even if you are
a super fan of somebody, maybe like give them the
room to change and don't completely attire your identity too
something that might not feel right to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
You, or really anything, any one thing. Any tire your
identity to one single thing. That's the danger zone. Oh
there it is there, it is, thank you a danger zone.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Yeah yeah, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 5 (01:07:20):
Always have a large group of celebrities that you are
obsessed with.

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
Yeah yeah, be a super fan of like ten people
and not just one. Y'all, thank you so much for
spending another week with us. As always, remember to rate
us five stars. Go get some march if you want.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Exactly right store dot com. Exactly right store dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:07:41):
We say we don't want to be megastars, but we
do want to see you wearing our march.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
So we're having cognitive doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:07:48):
It for the special club of our our fans, the unique,
small special club.

Speaker 5 (01:07:54):
Yes, and as always, remember to follow your gut, watch
out for red flags.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
And never ever trusts me. Bye.

Speaker 4 (01:08:06):
This has been an exactly right production hosted by me Lola.

Speaker 5 (01:08:09):
Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

Speaker 5 (01:08:16):
Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker
is Patrick Kuttner.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark
and Daniel Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at
trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:08:33):
Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,
Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts