The Metrics Brothers
The Metrics Brothers (formerly SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers) is hosted by Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike. The Metrics Brothers provides unique insights, strategies, tactics and the metrics that are relevant to Native-AI and B2B software and SaaS companies. Each 20-minute episode will cover a topic critical to leading a B2B software company, and chalked full of practical advice that can be introduced and applied in most Native-AI, Agentic AI and B2B software and SaaS companies.
Episodes
For more than a decade, the Rule of 40 has been the gold standard for measuring SaaS performance:
Growth Rate + Profit Margin ≥ 40
But in today’s environment of higher interest rates, multiple compression, private equity leverage, and AI-driven cost pressures, that benchmark may no longer be enough.
In this episode of the Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg explore why many investors and operators are n...
In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike go point-counterpoint on two high-profile articles making waves across Wall Street and Silicon Valley: Citrini's provocative February 2025 report, The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis, and Citadel's rebuttal, The 2026 Global Intelligence Crisis.
Dave and Ray unpack whether AI is truly triggering an unprecedented economic collapse or whether Citrini's dark si...
In this episode, the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the ICONIQ State of AI: Bi-Annual Snapshot Report. Published in January 2026, this 44-page report summarizes insights from ~300 software executives on the front lines of building and scaling AI products.
Ray and Dave explore a market transition from experimental model races to the challenge of building durable, economically sound ...
In this extended episode, the Metrics Brothers tackle the "elephant in the room" - the SaaSpocalypse. With nearly $1 trillion in market value wiped out recently, Ray and Dave go beyond the stock market headlines to analyze the structural shifts hitting the industry.
The duo breaks down the three primary drivers of the current market "carnage", including the AI Fear of Being Obsolete (FOBO), Regression to the Mean for SaaS s...
In this episode of the Metrics Brothers podcast, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg tackle one of the most critical yet misunderstood metrics in the U.S. economy: Labor Productivity. Amidst the rapid rise of Artificial Intelligence, the "Metrics Brothers" break down how productivity is officially measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and why historical technology booms, from SaaS to Cloud, haven't always moved productivity gro...
Brand is one of the most powerful assets a company can build and one of the hardest to measure. In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave “CAC” Kellogg, and Ray "Growth" Rike take on one of marketing’s most persistent challenges: how to measure brand in a world obsessed with direct attribution and near-term ROI.
The conversation starts with what a brand really is, originating from literal marks of ownership and evolving...
The State of Generative AI in the Enterprise 2025
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg break down the 2025 State of Generative AI in the Enterprise report from Menlo Ventures and explain what the data really says about where enterprise AI adoption is accelerating and where the market is consolidating.
The headline takeaway: AI software is scaling faster than any software category in history. Ent...
The claim that “95% of AI projects fail” has become one of the most repeated talking points in enterprise AI. But where did it come from, and does it actually hold up?
In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take a detailed, data-driven look at the MIT NANDA report, titled The GenAI Divide: State of AI in Business 2025. They break down how the "95% fail rate" statistic went viral, why it stuck, and why the...
Brand vs Demand: Why B2B Marketing Is Stuck in a Measurement Trap
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike tackle one of the most persistent and controversial questions in B2B marketing: Brand vs. Demand.
The discussion is grounded in new data from the 2026 B2B Brand vs Demand Benchmark Report. While most marketing teams say they believe brand and demand are complementary, the numbers...
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down the 2025 Tidemark Vertical & SMB SaaS Benchmark Report. Drawing from data across 200+ companies, the report explores control points, multi-product expansion, fintech monetization, and AI adoption, but not all conclusions hold up under scrutiny as they are sometimes take on the tone of a narrative summary rather than insights ...
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg unpack Benedict Evans’ latest landmark presentation, AI Eats the World, and explore why this moment may rival or even surpass the original “software is eating the world” era. Drawing parallels to Marc Andreessen’s 2011 thesis, they examine how AI is no longer just another platform shift, but a force capable of reshaping labor, capital allocation, and entire...
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, hosts Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg provide a critical deep dive into the 2025 SaaS Benchmark Report published by High Alpha. Known for their analytical, and sometimes "crusty" approach, the metrics brothers dissect the data behind 800+ SaaS companies to separate real market trends from report commentary.
Key Highlights & Benchmarks
The brothers break down the report’s ...
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg take on one of the biggest challenges facing modern SaaS and AI-Native companies: how to measure NRR and expansion when pricing isn’t fixed anymore.
With the rise of usage-based, user-based-but-variable, and outcome-based pricing, the traditional world of ARR - long the backbone of SaaS metrics has been turned on its head. Contracts no longer ...
In this episode, "The Metrics Brothers," Growth (Ray Rike) and CAC (Dave Kellogg), dive into a critical challenge for modern SaaS and AI-Native companies: accurately calculating Net Revenue Retention (NRR) in environments that utilize variable pricing models (usage-based, outcome-based, etc.).
They begin by defining NRR, emphasizing its importance as a key metric and its high correlation with Enterprise Value-to-Revenue mul...
For their 100th episode, Ray "Growth" Rike and Dave "CAC" Kellogg get philosophical, inspired by the notion that many hold, which is "nothing works" in B2B GTM anymore - especially in regards to pipeline development.
They dive into the 2025 State of B2B GTM Report by Kyle Poyar and Maja Voijc to challenge this idea and find out what GTM leaders are actually prioritizing.
In this episode, The Metrics Brothers break down:
- T...
In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg break down one of the emerging metrics in the Agentic AI era: Containment Rate - the percentage of tasks an AI agent completes (resolves) end-to-end without human intervention.
They explore multiple aspects of the Containment Rate Metric including:
- How containment rate differs from classic chatbot metric - deflection rate
- Why defining “resol...
Air Street Capital’s Nathan Benaich just dropped the 2025 State of AI Report — a 313-page tour de force on where artificial intelligence is today and where it’s headed next. In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the highlights, surprises, and bold predictions shaping the future of AI, software, and the global economy.
They explore:
- Why this report is becoming the “Mary Meeker Internet Repor...
AI Agents (also known as Agentic AI) are quickly becoming one of the most talked-about ways for enterprises to operationalize generative AI. G2 recently released a new research report — “A Leap of Trust: AI Agents Are Winning Hearts and Wallets” — highlighting where adoption is happening and why.
In this episode, Dave “CAC” Kellogg and Ray “Growth” Rike break down the report’s findings and what they mean for business leader...
The buzz about ROI from AI software investments is palpable, so Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike take on the topic of measuring Return on Investment on AI software investments. During today's episode, Dave and Ray discuss the details on measuring ROI including:
- Defining Return on Investment
- Soft vs Hard Benefits
- Productivity - the primary benefit of AI investments today
- Buy versus Build & Run - an old prob...
9-9-6. A term to describe the work culture of working 9AM - 9PM six days a week. This term is most often associated with those founders, companies, and their employees that work in generational software opportunities - such as we see right now with AI Software.
Dave and Ray discuss 9-9-6 from multiple angles in today's episode including:
- What 9-9-6 is
- Where did it originate
- Why is it trending
- The importance of Winning...
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