The Persuasion Occasion

The Persuasion Occasion

Welcome to the Persuasion Occasion. Hosted by Perkins Coie Consumer Products and Services litigators David Biderman and Jasmine Wetherell, each episode features a conversation with noted professionals about achieving success in disputes and negotiations. The discussions are not limited to the legal realm, as success demands incorporating teachings from a breadth of perspectives. David, a baby boomer, and Jasmine, a millennial, enhance the discussions with their multigenerational perspectives. Episode guests include negotiators and behavioral scientists. They provide practical advice, real world examples, and thoughtful strategies for surmounting the inevitable hurdles encountered in the worlds of litigation, business, and life. At the end of the day, isn’t life a series of disputes and negotiations? Legal professionals, industry leaders, or simply those with curious minds are invited to join David and Jasmine in these explorations.

Episodes

Negotiation Is a Human Process: Strategies from John Lowry

July 1, 2025 • 76 mins
John Lowry—expert negotiator and author of Negotiation Made Simple—joins us to break down the real dynamics of deal-making. Drawing from years as a litigator and founder of The Lowry Group, a negotiation collective, John explains why successful negotiation isn’t just about facts or law—it’s about people.

We explore the mindset needed to negotiate effectively, how to manage emotion and ego on both sides of the table, and why influenc...
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The End of Trauma: What Resilience Really Looks Like with Dr. George Bonanno

June 17, 2025 • 63 mins
Dr. George Bonanno, professor of psychology at Columbia University and head of the Loss, Trauma, and Emotion Lab, joins us to challenge everything you think you know about trauma and resilience.George shares how his unconventional path—from a troubled youth to working with mentally ill adults—led him to Yale and into a career studying how people respond to loss and extreme stress.

His research shows that most people are more resilie...
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The Psychology of Persuasion: Lessons from FBI Negotiator Melissa Fortunato

May 20, 2025 • 72 mins
Melissa Fortunato, a retired FBI special agent with over two decades of service, joins us to unpack what undercover operations and hostage negotiations can teach us about persuasion, human behavior, and trust-building—both in crisis and in daily life.

Melissa shares how her background in psychology and counseling shaped her FBI career, taking her from a rape crisis center to undercover roles and high-stakes international negotiation...
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The Power of Connection: Hostage Negotiation Lessons for Everyday Influence With Scott Tillema

April 22, 2025 • 68 mins
Scott Tillema, co-founder of The Negotiations Collective and veteran hostage negotiator, joins us to share what crisis negotiations can teach us about influence, emotional control, and communication under pressure.

He explains how a curiosity about human behavior led him into law enforcement and how he ultimately trained to handle life-or-death situations on a SWAT team. Scott reveals how empathy, timing, and strong listening skills...
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Mastering Body Language and Nonverbal Communication: Insights from Former FBI Agent Joe Navarro

December 19, 2024 • 72 mins
In this episode, Joe Navarro, former FBI special agent and expert in nonverbal communication, shares insights from his unique background. He discusses how his early life in Cuba shaped his understanding of body language and the transition from intuitive observations to structured analysis. Navarro explores the critical role of body language in interviews, negotiations, and daily interactions, offering practical advice to enhance pe...
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Radical Empathy and Persuasion: A Conversation With Jeremy Hurewitz

December 3, 2024 • 57 mins
In this conversation, Jeremy Hurewitz shares his unique journey from journalism to corporate security and describes how his experiences have shaped his understanding of persuasion and influence. He discusses his regular work with lawyers and law firms, explores the importance of active listening, radical empathy, and elicitation in sales, and introduces his “Crawl, Walk, Run” strategy for building client relationships.Jeremy emphas...
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Persuasion Science for Trial Lawyers: John Blumberg

September 17, 2024 • 57 mins
Our guest this week, John Blumberg, author of Persuasion Science for Trial Lawyers, describes how he incorporates developments in psychology, behavioral economics and decision making science into trial presentations.  He describes why information is accepted or rejected by jurors and how decisions by juries can be affected by cognitive overload, mental shortcuts, and biases. He emphasizes the importance of presenting information si...
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Neuroscience and Memory: A Deep Dive with Prof. John Dowling

September 3, 2024 • 59 mins
Prof. John Dowling joins us on The Persuasion Occasion to discuss the science of memory and learning. We explore the mechanisms of neurotransmission and modulation in the brain and how long-term memories are formed through biochemical changes in the brain. John dives into the creative and reconstructive nature of memory, the role of attention and emotions in perception and memory, and the creative limitations of AI.
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David Ball on Trial Strategy: Understanding the Reptile Mindset

August 13, 2024 • 63 mins
This week we are joined by the nation’s most influential trial consultant, David Ball, to discuss the reptilian brain’s influence on legal decision-making. David shares his insights on understanding juror perspectives, addressing jurors’ potential biases, and comprehending why social media has been a game changer for trial lawyers. We also discuss the importance of clearly defining legal terms, framing narratives that resonate with...
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How to Use Story and Lyrical Techniques to Improve Songwriting ft. Pat Pattison: Professor at Berklee School of Music

July 30, 2024 • 60 mins
Pat Pattison, a professor at Berklee College of Music, joins us this week to discuss the transformative impact of music and share insights on writing song lyrics, including structure, emotional tone, and intentionality. We discuss the significance of metaphor and authenticity in creating a cohesive and effective song. Pat also shares stories about his life in music, including jamming with the Doobie Brothers and Beach Boys, and dis...
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Advocacy In The Music Industry Part 2: ft. Jason Blume

July 16, 2024 • 37 mins
In part two with Jason Blume, we delve into the elements of a successful and persuasive song. Jason shares invaluable insights and practical advice that can translate from songwriting to any arena. Jason emphasizes that while good songs are plentiful, what sets successful ones apart is their unique angle and fresh approach. He also touches on the importance of song structure, explaining that most hit songs follow a few familiar str...
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Advocacy In The Music Industry Part 1: ft. Jason Blume

July 2, 2024 • 44 mins
Songwriter and instructor Jason Blume joins us to share his struggles and successes in negotiation within the music industry. He emphasizes the importance of persistence, networking, and collaboration. In discussing songwriting’s interplay between creativity and business, he highlights the need for songwriters to understand both aspects of the industry. We also dig into the key elements of persuasive songwriting, including melody, ...
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Behavioral Economics and Persuasion Featuring Dan Ariely 

June 11, 2024 • 58 mins
On this show, Dan Ariely, Duke University professor and noted author, discusses behavioral psychology and persuasion, the dangers of misbelief, and the growing phenomenon of identity polarization in the digital age. Dan shares how misbelief can lead to a distorted view of reality, where everything is seen through the lens of a particular belief or perspective. We also dive into the significance of clear and concise communication in...
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The Inside Story of the Pentagon Papers Featuring Floyd Abrams

May 14, 2024 • 58 mins
This week on The Persuasion Occasion, we welcome noted First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams as he recounts his representation of the New York Times in the historic legal battle over the publication of the Pentagon Papers. This 1971 case led to a groundbreaking U.S. Supreme Court ruling affecting freedom of the press. Floyd’s captivating storytelling and description reveals how this fight about fundamental constitutional issues unfol...
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High Impact Negotiation ft. Kasia Jagodzinska of the Schranner Negotiation Institute

May 2, 2024 • 62 mins
Join us for an engaging session with Kasia Jagodzinska, author of the Financial Times Guide to High Impact Negotiation. We discuss the negotiation process, how Kasia’s multicultural training served her in international negations at the United Nations, and the influence of psychology on negotiations. 

Kasia considers various negotiation strategies, including the Harvard Win/Win teaching and the FBI’s strategies for crisis negotiation...
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Champions of Mixed-Use Urban Development Counter the Urban Doom Loop: Insights from Douglas Wilson and Michele Vives 

April 16, 2024 • 65 mins
Doug Wilson, and DWC President Michele Vives discuss the growth and downturns of mixed-use development. Michele shares her perspective on the dramatic loss in value of downtown real estate and the interconnectedness of commercial real estate and such community issues as homelessness, and our need to address these challenges. Doug, a 40-year veteran of real estate cycles, describes why he is optimistic about downtown urban developme...
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Mastering the Art of Influence: Unleashing Your Inner Charm ft. AJ and Johnny From The Art of Charm

March 26, 2024 • 63 mins
Johnny Dzubak and AJ Harbinger, creators of The Art of Charm podcast, share how their podcast—and their subsequent training services—help people open up lines of communication and influence. They explain how positive feedback loops and other trained behaviours can make you more persuasive and discuss the skills that can help build trust and relationships. Johnny and AJ also describe how their work with Special Forces allowed them t...
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The Rules of Persuasion ft. Carlos Alvarenga

March 12, 2024 • 56 mins
We’re excited to talk with Carlos Alvarenga, author of The Rules of Persuasion, How the World’s Greatest Communicators Convince, Inspire, Lead—and, Sometimes, Deceive. Carlos reveals how he translated Aristotle's principles of persuasion to modern media (e.g., movies and rap music) to make his advice more accessible. He also explores his definition of persuasion, how Donald Trump's presidential campaign created a powerful loyalty f...
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Operation Family Secrets (aka Casino), Featuring Former Assistant United States Attorney Markus Funk

February 6, 2024 • 64 mins
David and Jasmine talk with Markus Funk about the investigation and trial of the powerful Chicago-based Calabrese family mob, who engineered years of extortion, gambling, bookmaking, and hundreds of murders. Their gangland execution of two mobsters in an Indiana cornfield was reenacted in Martin Scorsese’s Casino, giving viewers a glimpse of the chilling nature of organized crime activities. Marcus describes the trial of the nation...
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Crafting the Narrative: Shane Read Teaches Courtroom Persuasion

January 10, 2024 • 56 mins
This week on The Persuasion Occasion, we are joined by Shane Read, one of the leading (and best) authors and commentators on courtroom and boardroom advocacy. Shane’s compelling, award-winning books have been praised by the best trial lawyers in the world.

Focusing on the importance of storytelling, Shane helps readers simplify complex ideas and understand the psychology of persuasion. His insights are essential for anyone looking ...
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