September 8, 2020 • 40 mins
Jordan Klepper is a very funny person, and Comedy Central took notice, making him one of their go-to stars: he's hosted his own late-night talk show and two excellent documentary series for the network. But with about 90 million views on YouTube and Facebook, Klepper's work as the Daily Show's Trump-rally correspondent is what turned him into a political celebrity. He's been on the beat from the beginning: Jon Stewart hired him in 2014 and he started attending the rallies right as Trump was taking off in the Republican primaries. Man-on-the-street interviews are inevitably cherry-picked, but by turning on his mic and asking questions, Klepper creates an important document of this particular segment of Donald Trump’s base. He tells Alec why he thinks interviewing rally-goers isn't "punching down" -- and he traces his own path from college Math major in Kalamazoo, through improv star in Chicago, to one of the smartest and most reliable members of that very modern profession: advocacy journalists working through the medium of comedy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.
Jordan Clapper is a Comedy Central staple, having hosted two
documentary series and the networks earlier late night talk show,
The Opposition, But you probably know him as this guy.
This is Jordan Clepper, fingers the pulse. This past summer,
(00:29):
Trump flag waivers spouted a lot of theories about Hillary
Clinton's hell. I headed to Trump rallies in the crucial
swing states of Ohio and Wisconsin to discover what his
supporters know that the rest of us don't. It could
be aids. What makes you think she has aids a
way her husband used to be? So you think Bill
had aids? So how did Bill Clinton get aids? Probably
(00:50):
messing out with that Magic Johnson. Jordan Clepper is the
king of interviewing Trump supporters in their natural environs in
his role as a Daily show correspondent. He started going
to Trump rallies in January two thousand sixteen, just as
the campaign was really taking off. Man on the Street
interviews are inevitably cherry picked and should be taken with
(01:13):
a grain of salt. But simply by turning on his
mike and asking questions. Clapper creates an important document of
this particular segment of Donald Trump's bace and one of
the most unbelievable discoveries yet Barack Obama. I had big
part of nine eleven, which part not being around, always
on vacation, never in the office. Why do you think
(01:35):
Barack Obama wasn't in the Oval office on nine eleven?
That I don't know. I would like to get to
the bottom of that. Clapper is from one of those
crucial swing states. He now studies, a middle class kid
from Kalamazoo, Michigan, and he was a smart one. If
you don't know him as a star of The Daily Show,
you may know him as the nine National mock Trial
(01:58):
champion or the recipient of one of Kalamazoo's most prestigious
math scholarships. Clippers intelligence, however, did not translate into foresight
when it came to the coronavirus. Being prepared is something
that's not my sweet spot. I had a couple cans
of beans and my wife's podcasting equipment. You and I
(02:20):
are brothers because my wife has a podcast and my
wife has They sent her all this honking equipment, and
what really hurts most of all because she she says,
she I'm I'm in my wife's office right now using
her equipment. She has the better equipment, and as a
result of having better equipment, my wife is actually making
more money than me for the first time in this
this year so far, year to date, selling skin cream
(02:45):
on Instagram and diapers and butt cream but paste. I
think this quarantine had really highlighted the importance of producers
everybody else who's trying to do it at their own.
It's like, you know, I'm a comedian, I'm a performer,
and then you're like, you don't know what lighting is.
Have you not been talking to grips? You've been on
sets for years, and you don't know the importance of
not putting a light right behind you. It's like, I
(03:05):
just I need somebody to hold my hand at all times.
Lauren Michael's had a great line. He said, you know
that the logo this is years ago. He said, the
logo for YouTube is broadcast yourself. And Lauren said, you know,
over time, we've realized a layer of executives and producers
isn't really a bad thing, isn't to decide who's ready
to broadcast themselves. Who's really ready to make that step?
(03:28):
I don't know. But now, you grew up in born
and raised in Kalamazoo, correct, that's right, yes, Klamazoo, Michigan,
and nobody in the family was in the arts, musicians, comics, actors,
not a well my parents know, we were, you know,
a blue collar family. My dad a brick salesman. My
mom would stay at home mom, and she also worked
in the schools. Although we did have the funny strange
(03:51):
connection is my mom's cousin and my dad's college roommate,
UH was Tim Allen, and so I would see I
would see Tim Allen every Thanksgiving or Christmas, and that
was just as he was a stand up when I
was like a kid. And then he got Home Improvement
and so that was the first little UH insight into
(04:12):
the industry. Getting to watch suddenly uncle Tim be up
there on television, which was quite the exciting treat when
you're a ten year old at home and watch somebody
you know actually on your screen. The um you were,
I mean, I don't want to say NERD or WONK
math major, uh, mock trial champion. Oh you were kind
(04:37):
of you. You were a smart guy. Up to a point,
making some really good decisions up to a point. Up
to a point, I was a doing things that mattered
up to a point. Yeah, there's when when I was
under the tutelage of my parents, I was studying and
I was a four point kid. I got a math scholarship.
I did mock trial. It was funny. I went back
when I had my wedding after in fifteen years outside
(05:01):
of the nest, in this entertainment world, doing improv. My
parents got up to speak in a room full of
all of my mostly new friends, and they spoke primarily
about my experience as a national champion mock trial person.
And the entire room was like, I don't even know
what that is. You never bring that up, But it's like,
all right for my parents who experienced this with me,
that's who I am. I'm a guy who's way into
(05:21):
the law, who's way into math. To my friends, now,
I'm the person who likes to pretend to be a
wind or a tree on stage for no money. So
so the people I was a beef steak tomato when
that line he had. But but my path was the
same where I was going to go to law school
and someone kind of like just dared me to audition
(05:43):
for the n y U Acting program, and I got in.
But there are times I stop and think that I
could I go the right way in the fork in
the road, you know, because this business is so non meritorious.
Although I will say I had a very it was
a similar path of like when I got into college,
I did the improv team, and suddodly it was you
should try this, this is fun. I think what was
so eye opening for me at the time is what
(06:05):
I found in the arts and and or improv specifically,
was like I've never been asked to kind of think
in that way. It was creative, there was no yes
or no, there was no right answer, and I was
suddenly around people who were very curious in different ways.
I loved the math world, I love the law world.
I love the academic world. But I was very much
on a path of like, these are the things you
do to get these outcomes. And then suddenly you hit improv,
(06:28):
and you hit the theater types and folks, and you're
reading plays, you're reading scripts, you're making things up off
the spot, and suddenly it's like, well, there's no right answer.
We want to know how you feel that. I think
I had gone eighteen years where I was like, oh,
nobody asked me how I felt about this. They just
asked me like, what was the slope of this this
line or this angle? And for that was that was
really kind of a game changer for me. So when
(06:48):
you when you are in the math world and you're
going to school, are you devouring comedy and absorbing comedy
and watching the world of comedy eva of on TV
and perform Are you going to comedy clubs? Are you
the funniest guy in the room high school? My bedroom
is full of Jim Carrey posters. I'm watching SNL every weekend.
(07:10):
I'm coming home after school and I'm watching General Hospital
with my mom and then watching Whose Line Is It Anyway? Alone?
And I get to college, I start playing around and
because I'm still an academic, I'm like, well, I want
to know everything about this. And so because we're in Michigan,
I go to Chicago and I go to Detroit to
learn about the second city, and I see that live
(07:31):
and suddenly developed that why why why go to Chicago? No? No, no, meaning,
did you kind of get a sense when you're going
to Kalamazoo and you're a math major from day one.
When you're here, you're going, I don't know, any minute,
I'm may going to the theater program. You know, I'll
be crazy orientation a week I walk on it. So
it's a small college, Kalamazoo College campus of I think
(07:52):
it's it's four hundred people. So it is this. I
could be a big fish and a small puddle. And
there's an improv group. They say, issue for it, see
if you can be in it, And in my mind,
I'm like, you know what, I like this? Whose line
is in anyway thing? I'm kind of a funny guy
in my math classes. I'm gonna audition for this. And
I tell myself there's a lot of people auditioning. If
I get to be in a show in the next
(08:13):
four years, that's a success. And I do that and
week two or three they cast me and it's like
you're in and I'm like, oh, well, this is this
is more success than I expected. And you get that
first laugh and I'm like, actually, I like this so
much more than I thought I would. I know, but
at that point, I'm like, I got a math major
and I got a scholarship that paid for me to
go to college. But I did that again. At this point,
(08:34):
I did that thinking through what my future would be,
and I was like, if I can get college paid for,
I might not be a math teacher or going to
be an actual real scientist. I'll find something in college
that I care about. And at that point, I'm like,
this is the one thing I'm good at. It's the
one thing I enjoy. I don't know how it's a career,
and to be quite honest, I don't think I figured
that out for another decade. But I was still curious
(08:56):
about these things. And so suddenly six months in it's like,
you know what, I like this. I'm gonna take an
acting class. You know, I'll take a I'll take a
lighting men. Yeah. At mentors. I mean, he's he's the guy.
He's the head of the theater arts program at Kalamazoo College,
and he was the guy who sort of shepherd me
into the world of performance. He's like, you're funny, you're smart,
(09:18):
but if you want to know about this stuff, there's
like there's a legacy here. Go to that. Understand that.
And he's a theater nerd who's gonna talk to you
your ear off about Sam Shepherd Ibsen. But he had
Jeffrey Sweets book something wonderful right away, and it's like,
you gotta go to Chicago. Let me tell you about
Nichols and May. This is how comedy started in America
(09:38):
when it comes to sketch and improv. And so I
jump in and I'm certainly reading Viola Spolan. I'm going
to Chicago to watch people improvise on Friday nights. I'm
driving to Chicago and I'm seeing late night shows at
the Improv Olympic. And he was really the guy who
walked me through that I put up my first sketch show.
He introduced me to people in Chicago. I went to Chicago,
got to meet the people I was reading about. Year
(10:00):
is the two one is when I moved to Chicago graduated. Uh.
One of the first shows I see in Chicago, which
might have been two thousand, I was still in college
at the time, I see Rachel Dratch on stage. Uh,
and she's the funniest. I'm saying, that'll do it. You're like,
what is this? And you're in live theater. People are
laughing like they're so engaged. It's smart, it's ridiculous, it's
(10:21):
alive and it's and it's all you tell me if
you don't agree. The comedy that I liked when I
was younger, I watched f Troop and the Monsters, and
I watched The Adams Family and all these cookie shows.
They were clever, they were wonderful actors, funny, deadly timing
and so. But there was a bit of warmth to them.
(10:42):
They weren't snarky like Rachel. There was an innocence to
them and a sweetness to them. And that's the thing
that attracted me most to you was it was not nasty. Well,
that's that's kind of you to say. I think, actually
you've hit on something that people don't talk a lot
about with comedy. Often people talk about like the edgy comedians,
and trust me, I love my Carlin's and I love
(11:03):
the comedians who can cut to the quick like that.
But I will say in the improv role that came
up with your right, there's a warmth because it's an
art form that's sort of built in collaboration. And one
of my one of my early coaches was Keegan Michael Key,
who had moved from Detroit to Chicago. He's this theater nerd,
who was also the best person I've ever do seen
do sketch comedy. He was built to do sketch comedy,
(11:25):
and he was like, I want to work with some
young students, and I'm like twenty three at the time.
And so you work with Keegan and he's like the kindest, warmest,
smartest person you're gonna run into. He's doing this work
at night. That's just mind blowing. And I think, like,
like I grew up and watching people like that. I
loved Python, and you love the Michael Palin's as well,
who sort of bring like an innocence to it. But
(11:46):
it's not at the expense of intelligence. Carlin I think
was edgy and acrid. But everybody he gave it to deserved.
That's what it is, really, they really did. He's not
punching down. I think that's you know, that's one of
the early things. If you're punched it in the right direction,
take those swings, like whatever your whatever, whatever your tactics are,
use them, but but but swing in the right direction.
(12:06):
Now when when you are when you're there, and mentor
says you should try improv I mean obviously, when someone
has a lot of academic promise and you come from
a middle class family, how did your parents feel when
the scholarship mathlete decides I'm gonna go live in poverty.
(12:28):
You know, I'm I am, I am fortunate beyond belief.
I think they were, they were, they weren't continued to
be my my biggest fans. Like I'm doing basement improv
shows at nineteen and I'm and they're coming, they're they're
like the parents who are there amongst amongst a bunch
of drunk college students at a terrible performance. And I
think they the one thing my family, which you know,
(12:50):
as I embark on a family of my own, I
respect most and got most out of it. My family
always showed up, my grandparents and we were lucky, we
were small town count zoo. But if I had a
basketball game, my family was there. My Grandpa would show up,
my Grandma would show up, and like they always were there.
And so when they got to watch me find love
in this thing, be terrible in this thing, and when
(13:13):
graduation came, I'm like, I don't exactly know what I
want to do with my life, but I like, I'm
I'm interested in this world. The math thing it got
me through. Now I have no debt. But the theater
thing I'm curious about. I love Chicago. I was gonna
give it a year. Did you say the same thing,
Did you say, I'm gonna a dabble in this. I
I was bad with deadlines, but I was definitely not
(13:33):
a dabbler. I think, like still the mindset of a mathematician,
like junior year, it starts to uh dawn on me.
It's like, I like Chicago. I think I want to
give this thing a go. How do I make that work?
I wish I had the ego to be like, I'm
gonna kill this thing. I'm gonna walk out and do it.
But I'm like, I need I need a game plan.
I need to make money. And so I'm junior year.
(13:55):
I'm like, I'm not thinking about getting that acting job.
I'm thinking about getting that service job that help me
support trying to get that acting job. So I got
a catering job by jar so it was I was like,
I was like, I got a catering job, so I
have references to get a job in Chicago waiting tables, which,
of course then I never worked waiting tables, but I
had all the good at like there's not enough caviar
(14:18):
on top of this. It's a little light of the kids,
a little bit of I know what you guys are
doing back there. I respect it. For God's sakes. Give
me the caviar. We need that. So you're in Chicago.
How long I'm in Chicago almost ten years? I jumped
and I burned out. Why why? I mean, I think
i'd like to say, you know, I always was moving
(14:39):
to that next thing. I think you get comfortable, like, well,
here's one thing. It's a great town, and I think
you know the entertainment industry, there is no path, but
in the improv world there's the illusion of a path.
You can start taking classes and then you move up
a ladder at second City, you get on the touring company,
and then hopefully you get on one of the stages,
and then you get on SNL. And there was like
(14:59):
there the path when you go to Chicago for success.
That is beneficial for people who don't know how to
make connections, but it becomes detrimental once you're there too long.
And so I sort of I got what I could
get out of it. For five six years, I got better,
I got connections I got close to getting breaks, and
then I got a little complacent, and then and then
I book a thing here, I get a pilot, I
(15:21):
get a couple of little things. I'm like, funk out,
I'm gonna go to New York. Also New York Er
l A. New York was always romantic to me. And
uh and also I have the ship on my shoulder
now of Chicago because I didn't get everything I wanted,
so funck it, Let's go to go to New York.
But this point, I'm in my thirties or I am.
I'm thirty, I think, and and now trying to kind
of restart. I had. I met her touring at Second City.
(15:44):
She's a masochist, so she knew what she knew exactly
what she was getting into. The guy with the math
scholarship who wanted to become a comedian. She's the patron
state of Lost cause, yeah, that's right. I mean, she's
she knew it from the beginning. At that point, she
had dated somebody who was a clown. She had dated
some but like she's she's been in the art world.
She's like, you know, at least this guy she dated,
the Joker, dated the Joker this guy could be our
(16:06):
accountant and it could at least trace our economic downfall.
You can bounce a check, but which is easy because
it's not much in the bank. To time minutes, I
can tell you what we don't have. You met her
where I met her? At Second City? Essentially one of
my side hustles was teaching, uh, underprivileged schools in Chicagoland area,
improv after school, and she was doing the same thing,
(16:28):
and so we suddenly meet there. We get put on
a touring company for a Second City and get launched
into a van across America. And you spent two years
in a van with somebody, Uh, you kind of start
to develop a relationship. Let you went two years in
a van with her, I mean, you're your home here
and there, but it's yeah, you're you're you're I mean
(16:48):
at the time, it's a ton of van, but you're
getting paid seventy five dollars a show, so it is
worth it. You come home after like eight nine shows
in a month, you pay your rent and then where's
Laura from? Where Laura's from Downers Grove outside Chicago, Downers Grove.
That sounds like a Jimmy Stewart movie. I gotta tell
(17:09):
you if the image you have in your head of
Downers Grove fits covered bridges, Edmund Gwen with a beard
winging a ball out in front of Kresky's. They have
like a claim to fame for the largest flagpole. But
I looked it up and it's not height, it's width.
And that's where did she go? She goes to Northwestern
(17:30):
and she kind of she thinks she's gonna be a poet,
and she's going into writing programs and then suddenly finds herself,
uh loving acting. Northwestern is a grade school, finding improv
finding second city. She we laugh. Megan Marco was in
one of her classes, which is you know, you kind
of they deal with jealousy in this world, but when
you're literal classmate becomes a princess and a movie star,
(17:52):
you get pretty jealous and Jaden, So Laura's always dealing
with that. And she finds Chicago kind of the same
way I did, but from the suburbs, and she's a
she's a better performer, a little bit more artistic. She
was doing stuff with other theater companies, a more uh
straight theater in town. Uh. But we get kind of
put on this team together and and sort of find
(18:12):
that we both like the same stuff, we like each other,
and then we decide buck, let's let's quit this team
and let's move to New York. And we did it
about two years after we quit. That. I don't want
to get to but I think it's interesting how you
have that if things had played out differently, you said
that she went to Northwestern and studied poetry or literature.
What is your degree in poetry? Poetry and creative writing?
So if you had played your cards differently, you could
(18:34):
be teaching math at the Kuran Instituted Inn by U.
Your wife could be an editor at the New Yorker.
But instead the two of you were in a band
for two years driving around. Yeah again, you know, emotional
choices were made. If I had stuck to the mathematical brain,
and I would be so much more successful right now
and not stuck in my apartment having not thought through
what happens when true So when you come to New York,
(18:58):
you're in Chicago for ten years, you go to New York. Now,
the overwhelming number of people that I have worked with,
whether it's Dirty Rock or esn NO like right now,
the SnO cast is remote for the shows from l A,
many of them, it's more like live from my bedroom
in l A. The comedy world is in l A.
You don't go to l A. Why I don't like
(19:18):
l A. I've grown to be okay with it. But
I think l A's and one industry town, which is
good if you want to get in an industry, and
I think there's more opportunities there. I think New York
has always been held this romantic appeal to me. You're
You're never the most interesting person in the room, and
I think most of my time in New York has
has been failing and finding camaraderie with other people who
(19:39):
are failing along with you. And I think that shared
suffering brings a connection to New York, a richness to
New York. Uh that, don't get me wrong. I think
I we're consistently talking about l A for those opportunities.
But I think I've always I've always loved the people
I run into here, and so when we launched into
moving to New York, we stumbled on the UCB folks.
We stumbled on people who are like, if you come
(20:01):
to New York, you're gonna be hustling from day one,
because it's too expensive, you're leaving something behind and you've
got skin in the game. And so immediately we made
our best friends here. We made people who are creative
in different worlds, were animators, who are actors, who are writers,
who are chefs, and suddenly, like get populated with this
this rich, full life. Even if we weren't finding success
(20:22):
career wise, I feel like our life filled out really
quickly and beautifully here. And so every time I think
of l A and we still do, it's it's a
career decision, but the life decision continues to pull us
back towards New York, because to me, it's you have kids,
we have one on the way, and uh, if one
on the way, we have we have one. Uh even
(20:44):
we you've been with her, how long now you've been
We've been now a little over a decade. And only
now did you decide to get they got I think
we got engaged three years after dating, held on to
engagement for another three years. We put that off, and
when the virus came and shut down the whole business,
that's when you turned your said let's have it's time
to double down on humanity. I really think what this
(21:04):
world needs is more people. This it's going great. Let's
I know, it's it's a really weird we've with all
of this. It's been so strange to both consider what's
happening in the future outside of these four walls. The
exact moment when it was okay for us to tell
people that we were pregnant correlated with the stay at
home orders, and so now this child has been brought
(21:25):
into a world where every time we announced that he's coming,
it's met with like, that's great. Also, are you okay?
There's already this anxiety and that's been attached to this
little child in the womb. Daily Show correspondent and comedian
Jordan Clepper. We'll talk Trump in the second half of
the show, And like many funny men, Clepper is a
(21:47):
deep thinker about the state of American politics. A few
years ago, I spoke to the novelist and political observer
Steve Erickson about how we got to our current woeful
political state. His answer was especially poignant in light of
the recent unrest. It's a lack of acknowledgement that keeps
(22:08):
us from fulfilling the American idea. Whether they're trying to
rationalize the meaninglessness of Vietnam, or two and fifty years
of slavery. It maybe in the American DNA too, always
think that everything is year zero. It might be in
(22:28):
the American DNA to have cut ourselves aloose from history
and therefore not ever have to answer for it or
to it. Trump is not something that happened to America.
America happened to America, and Trump is the result of that.
For a link to my full conversation with Steve Erickson
(22:49):
and his new novel text ericson to seven zero zero one.
That's E R I c K s O N to
seven zero one zero one. I'm Ali Baldwin, and this
(23:12):
is here's the thing. A van and a dream brought
Jordan Clepper to New York in two thousand eleven. His
relationship with the network that would make him famous started immediately,
but not well within a year or two. I sell
a pilot with Comedy Central, and I get to make
a pilot, and then I get to have my heartbroken
when they don't pick up that pilot, and I get
(23:35):
to hope another one is just around the corner, and
get close and close, and then it doesn't happen. So
it's you know, I'm having little work here and there,
but it's it's probably six years into New York until
the the big Daily Show break happens. Uh. And two
years before that, I'm working pretty regularly writing on a
bunch of jobs, weird MTV two shows, reality shows, whatever
(23:56):
kind of I can get. But it doesn't happen until
about six years in when the Daily Show finally it's like, oh,
here's here's a legitimate opportunity. And I guess essentially the
big break you were there for. I think, if I
if I read the calendar the right way, you were
there for about a year when John was still about
a year year and a half with John, so I
jumped in when John Oliver left to go to do
(24:17):
the HBO show, and then about a year and then
John announced he was leaving and we had I think
like six months more until Trevor came in. So I
basically got a year and a half with John, a
year and a half with Trevor, uh, which was wild.
I mean it was it was a day. I love
the Daily Show. That was definitely a show that I
was growing up watching and watching people watching the Coldbets,
the Corral, the dead back at all is everybody spin
(24:39):
off from it? You were there how long when Trevor
was off for about a year and a half, and
then you know, I uh, and then I went off
and did the eleven thirties show afterwards, and Trevor was
really helpful and he was an EP on that as well,
and stayed close. And now and now I've you know,
I still do pieces here and there with Daily Show,
but as far as like uh, day in and day out,
(25:01):
I almost split almost exactly a year and a half
with John year and a half with Trevor, which was
which was really like such a mind shift because you
come into John and John was tell me, what would
tell me about the difference. I walk into John Stewart,
you know, Uh, a guy I've been watching on television
for years, somebody who's one of the smartest political minds
out there, and I'd just to be able to like
(25:23):
to audition in front of him, you know, took uh,
some steely reserve and some bullshit confidence that I had
to muster, and then to walk in day one. I mean,
I remember my first day. It happened so quick, and
they kind of hire you because you can jump into
the fire and day one I walk in. I had
auditioned three days before Crimea had been invaded, and they're
(25:45):
talking about it in the morning meeting and they're like, Jordan,
you're gonna do a chat on this, come to John's office.
And suddenly I'm brought it to John Stewart's office my
first day. I'm twenty five minutes into the day and
John's not only talking about what happened in Crimea, He's
talking about two op eds he's already read this morning.
I fucking don't know where Crimea is, but I have to.
I have to brainstorm with John fun ideas for the
(26:06):
show that night, and you're just in it. But I
think like that show. He's like, I only hire people
that I trust who can make this thing happen. And
so I learned so much from him. He was clearly
such a mentor, and he was so I think one
of the virtues he had that always resonates beyond kindness
and intelligence is decisiveness. Like he knew what he wanted,
he knew how to get to it. You'd film a
(26:27):
piece that need to kind of a minute and a
half so that I could go to air that night
and he'd make those decisions while the live audience is there,
um and under a minute he'd be like, we kind
of here, we cut here and make sure you edit
from this point. He just knew what he wanted, and
I think that was something as I got to move.
It's very much like Lauren I I would imagine. So
Lauren's genius was too to be on the deck of
(26:47):
the carrier. There the water is coming up of the deck,
you know what I mean. It's just really pretty tumultuous
to put the thing together and deciding, you know, what
is the show in terms of the flow of the
show and what works now. Leno Leno of course would
interview people on the street. And as I think I
told you when we were talking on the phone, when
I was sucking up to you to get you to
(27:09):
do this show with it took multiple phone calls. I
really was holding out, Yeah, you got the Greater's ice
cream that I sent you. Let's let's hurry this up,
Aule the But you know, Leno would do those interviews
on the street with people and it was you know,
like borderline appalling. You thought to myself, my god, I
mean this is stage because they were so stupid. What
(27:29):
state is Washington, d C? You know, Washington State? And
I didn't find it funny. It was so stupid, you
know what I mean? Now you go off. When I
watched you do this, I mean I'd be howling laughing,
and I don't. I don't laugh at a lot of stuff.
And you played it flawlessly. You know the first time
you did this, Describe what it was like. You didn't
feel threatened or you felt relatively safe. I will see.
(27:49):
What was interesting was, you know, with the Daily Show,
you do Man on the Streets, and I had done
Man on the Streets a little bit before for other topics. Uh.
And then when the Trump phenomenon came, the first time
I went to one of those rallies, I remember, I
think it was January of that year, what have you?
And we started hearing about these rallies, hearing about the
support that he had, and I think what I was
(28:09):
immediately shocked by one was the excitement surrounding him. People
were waiting in the snow. I remember our first piece,
We're waiting in the snow for hours, uh, and they were.
They immediately jumped into Trump talking points in a way
that the people I talked to beforehand. Usually, usually you
do a man on the street. People are really reserved
about what they actually feel. They understand the lines of
(28:32):
human decency or the opinions they should have out loud
and the opinions they should keep to themselves. And what
you started to see a Trump rallies right off the
bat is that that line shifted. They like, for example,
the birtherism, h Barack Obama secret Muslim those ideas were
very fringey. And I remember, even having done man on
the street stuff before Trump, you never get people to
(28:53):
talk about that. That would be such a diamond in
the rough that somebody actually revealed that. But suddenly at
these Trump situations, people were becoming revelatory. They're like, well,
I can share this now because the guy I'm going
in to see is going to say the same thing,
so I can. I can begin to share that. And
so right off the bat it was surprisingly I wouldn't
say antagonistic, it was almost jubilant. People were excited. They
were excited about this guy. They didn't feel threatened. Over
(29:15):
the course of the next six months, the relationship to
the press became antagonistic. We would get heckled wherever we went,
and there'll be threats of violence. Um, you have to
have security with you. We did, yeah, and I mean,
and the security keeps building as we continue to go.
The last one I went out, we had a few.
And it's it's a mix, like if you have a camera,
(29:36):
you're a target at those rallies and you'll get yelled at,
people will hound you info wars might try to come
up and and bomb you. Uh. But you're also met
with people who are like, I want to engage with you,
I want to I want to fight with you, I
wanna I wanna give you my p O V. And
so uh, I want to straighten you out. I mean,
that's the thing with we always say with like daily
show pieces, people ask like why did they talk to you,
(29:58):
and it's it's it's one people like to win and
think they can win, and two people want to be
on television. And so even though you have a paranoia
of the press, you have a lot of people who
want the attention of a camera and have the ego
of victory. Right, we talked on the phone before, but
you were talking to that one woman saying, uh, you
(30:20):
know marriage equality, do you think a gay couple should
have the same rights as No, I don't, I really don't.
I don't think it's fair to the gay couple. Well, no,
but the ringlet couple they work so hard, you know,
and a gay couple they want more. Do you when
you say more, do you mean equal? Yeah? They want
(30:40):
in there and that's just too much. And the way
you lead them, the way you pull them slowly over
to the cliff. That one guy who was talking about,
you know, respecting, what's an American ideal that we treat
women with respect? You tell me about your shirt, Well,
let's it say Trump that bitch? You know that? To me,
that's like a comedy classic, that tape of your But
at the same time, do you feel like that's become
(31:03):
like shooting fish in a barrel? Did you ever feel
like you were punching down, you know, with the with
the rallies, I feel Donald Trump plays to his crowd,
and I think his crowd dictates the policy more often
than not the way in which the uh the administration
responds to their wants and their needs. So I think
the pieces that I feel most proud of when we
go out to these rallies are those ones where we're
(31:24):
essentially testing the thesis. We're testing whether or not if
he's going to use reading the training script as the baseline,
if he's gonna welcome his fan base into that conversation.
I think they deserve to be interrogated, a cross examined,
and by who else than somebody who was a mock
trial national champion. I mean this, this is my opinion,
and I on the show, I try to avoid too
(31:46):
much Trump bashing, But but do you believe that these
people you meet in the heartland, so to speak, they
simply believe that Trump was the person that they were
sold on The Apprentice, that he was this crack executive,
the super smart, rich guy who knew how to run
a company, and he was decisive. How much do you
(32:07):
think the Apprentice and his persona from that came into
the I think I think that's a large part of
the equation. I think Donald Trump has been a brand
in America for decades. And you realize there's a lot
of people who are political walks, and we'll follow the
day to day, but there's most of this country's too
busy working other jobs to focus on that. And the
(32:29):
brand of Trump has been for so long one of success.
He reminds me of the CEO of a lot of
these companies. I go to my dad's brick conferences, and
I go to things in the middle of Pennsylvania or Kentucky,
and I will see, like, oh, there's the big conference
where everybody comes together and they see the CEO, and
the CEO loves to have a flashy car, a big suit,
(32:52):
allowed tie, and for a lot of people, that's what
success is. And Trump has been the brand of that
kind of success for so long that Trump supporters see
that and that has been what they're aiming for. They
see that as a well lived life. He's got a
model wife, he's got a gold apartment, and he says
what's on his mind. That's what they want to be.
I think you mix that with uh people needing to
(33:14):
feel validated like their team is winning. And he's been
so good at the tribalistic like I'm not wearing a
John McCain had. He was standing for people. Trump stands
for himself and says, you can be on my team. Yeah,
I mean us. If we're going specifically to rallies, you
realize we're not engaging in conversations about what actually could
happen within this country. I'm picking on you in a
way that you're treating like an Ohio State fan. I'm
(33:36):
a Michigan fan. I'm like, oh, these are the conversations
I have with the buck Eyes talking about their team,
because this is your identity, this isn't your political belief
and so I think liberals are gonna be are gonna
be frustrated, continue to be frustrated, waiting for that thing
that is going to change people's point of view on
Donald Trump. Well, you know, to me, the president sees
the world from a vantage point that no other human
(33:58):
being could ever attain ever, and it's changed as a
result of that. With one exception, there's only one man
who is as hate filled, myopic, self seeking now as
he was when he started the job, and maybe even more.
For change, you need, you need at least an ounce
of humility where you might not know everything. And when
(34:19):
that comes asking an expert, asking someone else, or the
ability to be to be moved. I'll take the information
work I can get. And I think like it's been
been set up so that it's only a conflict, and
I think Trump only survives conflict by doubling down when
we talk about when you're talking to people. I can
play logic games when I talk to folks. So I
think what is often cathartic about talking to people on
(34:40):
the streets is Trump makes proclamations that fall apart when
they're pressed with logic, and I think he leaves it
to his space to attempt to justify it, and there's
no justification behind most of these things. Well, what's one
memory among many? I'm sure of a moment for you
where you actually even you even you've seen who, who's
(35:00):
who's seen all the ingredients in the Buoya Bays of
American political thought. Oh my god, there's you know, one
of the last rallies I went to, there was a
moment that sort of encapsulated everything. I thought. It was
beautifully honest. There was a woman I was talking to.
It was it was right around it was during impeachment
and as the storyline was going about whether or not
(35:21):
you know, Trump is blocking subpoenas, he's not let anybody testify, um,
Bolton won't testify, um. And there's this narrative going on
which is like, well, he claims on one side that
he's completely innocent, uh, and but he won't let any
information in to prove that innocence. So we go out
to talk about impeachment and there was this like should
these people testify to his innocence if that's what you believe.
(35:43):
This woman was very clear. She was like, you can
tell he hasn't done anything wrong just by his demeanor.
I mean he would be trying to hide things. If
he were blocking witnesses or evidence or something like that,
you'd be like, oh, you're hiding something. But otherwise, right,
he said, let him see everything, let him I'll prove
whatever you want. You want me to prove. Right, But
(36:04):
Trump is blocking witnesses. I don't care. I don't care.
And I was like, you don't care. Yeah, I was like,
I believe you. I think that's true. It's like, this
is just a game, this conversation we're having is this
is a ridiculous statement. He said, it's contradictory all of
(36:25):
these things. I heard a beautiful quote that was about like,
facts don't always tell you who you are, but contradiction
often does reveal you. I think it was Hilton Owls
who said that, and I was like, oh, yeah, in
these contradictions, we see the warring faction of like, oh,
I believe this he's in. It doesn't matter if you
believe he's in you you believe this guy, you don't
trust me the media telling you something else, And if
(36:46):
I give you the facts, it's not going to change it.
You don't care. You've already you've already cast your ballot.
The show I did after the Daily Show called The Opposition.
The golden rule of that character was, may you only
hear from others what you've already been helling yourself. That
show lasted how long? Not long enough is what I
would say, a little under a year. And when a
(37:06):
show like that doesn't work out, what do you attribute
that too? Well, I mean it was because you were
doing so well with them. Well, I think like we
jumped into that. They were at a hard time fielding slot. Uh,
it's hard to put up a late night show, to
be quite honest. Everybody was like, it takes a it
takes some time, a year to two years to get
that audience. The audience numbers were okay, they weren't blowing
(37:27):
everything out of the water. And the network they were like,
there's six late night shows right now, you're like the seventh.
We feel there's Trump fatigue, and they were they were
bummed I wasn't able to go on the road, to
be honest, and they were like that that's why that
basically ended, because they were like, we think it's overcrowded
right now. Can we shift you to do a show
where you're on the road the whole time? And it
(37:48):
was kind of a bummer, to be quite honest. You
build up a whole show around you know, you have
a eight plus people working for you, and you're like,
we we have a couple we have a couple of
years to get this thing going. I think we had
some some great stuff things we were proud of, but
I think the numbers and the crowded marketplace pushed us
out pretty quick, and and the network was in a
weird place, continues to be in a weird place trying
(38:09):
to figure out how to compliment the daily show in
these times of lots of late nine uh is like
traditional TV sitcom for camera, single camera, Will and Gray's
thirty Rock or the Office, that kind of thing. Is
that something that appeals to you or do you assiduously
avoid that kind of thing? The casting director usually helps
(38:30):
me avoid those kinds of decisions. And they actually they've
been vigilant and not giving me those opportunities. Traditional television sitcoms,
all of that are things I'm curious and I'm dabbled
in here and there. I think as I've as I've
spent time getting that daily show opportunity did shift my mindset,
where before that it was I will do anything and everything.
(38:51):
And I still curious and love the experience of those things.
But I've really gotten a lot out of being able
to to be a part of projects where you get
to control kind of the point of view in the voice,
and so the projects to be able to go out
and produce my own pieces or specials or write my
own stuff has kind of been the priority to do
your own thing, to do my own thing, and I think,
like that's incredibly attractive, and I think like, I'm I'm
(39:13):
aware enough to know that the world doesn't necessarily need
my acting chops. Those are taken care of, thanks a
lot Alec for grabbing all the big roles that would
have obviously gone to me. Sure, but I'm like, oh,
but I think I I think I know how to
wrangle points of view and kind of speak to some
of these other topics doing the opposition. Doing those shows,
(39:33):
it was exhausting but also liberating to kind of to
get to work through the ship. You're purists. That I'm
a purist, but I'm gonna be a father. So anything
you have for God's sakes. Comedian and generally available person
Jordan Clapper. His two documentary series, Jordan Clapper Solves Guns
(39:53):
and Clapper are funny, nuanced dives into complex issues. They're
available on Amazon and YouTube. By Malick Baldwin and this
is Here's the thing
I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.
Jordan Clapper is a Comedy Central staple, having hosted two
documentary series and the networks earlier late night talk show,
The Opposition, But you probably know him as this guy.
This is Jordan Clepper, fingers the pulse. This past summer,
(00:29):
Trump flag waivers spouted a lot of theories about Hillary
Clinton's hell. I headed to Trump rallies in the crucial
swing states of Ohio and Wisconsin to discover what his
supporters know that the rest of us don't. It could
be aids. What makes you think she has aids a
way her husband used to be? So you think Bill
had aids? So how did Bill Clinton get aids? Probably
(00:50):
messing out with that Magic Johnson. Jordan Clepper is the
king of interviewing Trump supporters in their natural environs in
his role as a Daily show correspondent. He started going
to Trump rallies in January two thousand sixteen, just as
the campaign was really taking off. Man on the Street
interviews are inevitably cherry picked and should be taken with
(01:13):
a grain of salt. But simply by turning on his
mike and asking questions. Clapper creates an important document of
this particular segment of Donald Trump's bace and one of
the most unbelievable discoveries yet Barack Obama. I had big
part of nine eleven, which part not being around, always
on vacation, never in the office. Why do you think
(01:35):
Barack Obama wasn't in the Oval office on nine eleven?
That I don't know. I would like to get to
the bottom of that. Clapper is from one of those
crucial swing states. He now studies, a middle class kid
from Kalamazoo, Michigan, and he was a smart one. If
you don't know him as a star of The Daily Show,
you may know him as the nine National mock Trial
(01:58):
champion or the recipient of one of Kalamazoo's most prestigious
math scholarships. Clippers intelligence, however, did not translate into foresight
when it came to the coronavirus. Being prepared is something
that's not my sweet spot. I had a couple cans
of beans and my wife's podcasting equipment. You and I
(02:20):
are brothers because my wife has a podcast and my
wife has They sent her all this honking equipment, and
what really hurts most of all because she she says,
she I'm I'm in my wife's office right now using
her equipment. She has the better equipment, and as a
result of having better equipment, my wife is actually making
more money than me for the first time in this
this year so far, year to date, selling skin cream
(02:45):
on Instagram and diapers and butt cream but paste. I
think this quarantine had really highlighted the importance of producers
everybody else who's trying to do it at their own.
It's like, you know, I'm a comedian, I'm a performer,
and then you're like, you don't know what lighting is.
Have you not been talking to grips? You've been on
sets for years, and you don't know the importance of
not putting a light right behind you. It's like, I
(03:05):
just I need somebody to hold my hand at all times.
Lauren Michael's had a great line. He said, you know
that the logo this is years ago. He said, the
logo for YouTube is broadcast yourself. And Lauren said, you know,
over time, we've realized a layer of executives and producers
isn't really a bad thing, isn't to decide who's ready
to broadcast themselves. Who's really ready to make that step?
(03:28):
I don't know. But now, you grew up in born
and raised in Kalamazoo, correct, that's right, yes, Klamazoo, Michigan,
and nobody in the family was in the arts, musicians, comics, actors,
not a well my parents know, we were, you know,
a blue collar family. My dad a brick salesman. My
mom would stay at home mom, and she also worked
in the schools. Although we did have the funny strange
(03:51):
connection is my mom's cousin and my dad's college roommate,
UH was Tim Allen, and so I would see I
would see Tim Allen every Thanksgiving or Christmas, and that
was just as he was a stand up when I
was like a kid. And then he got Home Improvement
and so that was the first little UH insight into
(04:12):
the industry. Getting to watch suddenly uncle Tim be up
there on television, which was quite the exciting treat when
you're a ten year old at home and watch somebody
you know actually on your screen. The um you were,
I mean, I don't want to say NERD or WONK
math major, uh, mock trial champion. Oh you were kind
(04:37):
of you. You were a smart guy. Up to a point,
making some really good decisions up to a point. Up
to a point, I was a doing things that mattered
up to a point. Yeah, there's when when I was
under the tutelage of my parents, I was studying and
I was a four point kid. I got a math scholarship.
I did mock trial. It was funny. I went back
when I had my wedding after in fifteen years outside
(05:01):
of the nest, in this entertainment world, doing improv. My
parents got up to speak in a room full of
all of my mostly new friends, and they spoke primarily
about my experience as a national champion mock trial person.
And the entire room was like, I don't even know
what that is. You never bring that up, But it's like,
all right for my parents who experienced this with me,
that's who I am. I'm a guy who's way into
(05:21):
the law, who's way into math. To my friends, now,
I'm the person who likes to pretend to be a
wind or a tree on stage for no money. So
so the people I was a beef steak tomato when
that line he had. But but my path was the
same where I was going to go to law school
and someone kind of like just dared me to audition
(05:43):
for the n y U Acting program, and I got in.
But there are times I stop and think that I
could I go the right way in the fork in
the road, you know, because this business is so non meritorious.
Although I will say I had a very it was
a similar path of like when I got into college,
I did the improv team, and suddodly it was you
should try this, this is fun. I think what was
so eye opening for me at the time is what
(06:05):
I found in the arts and and or improv specifically,
was like I've never been asked to kind of think
in that way. It was creative, there was no yes
or no, there was no right answer, and I was
suddenly around people who were very curious in different ways.
I loved the math world, I love the law world.
I love the academic world. But I was very much
on a path of like, these are the things you
do to get these outcomes. And then suddenly you hit improv,
(06:28):
and you hit the theater types and folks, and you're
reading plays, you're reading scripts, you're making things up off
the spot, and suddenly it's like, well, there's no right answer.
We want to know how you feel that. I think
I had gone eighteen years where I was like, oh,
nobody asked me how I felt about this. They just
asked me like, what was the slope of this this
line or this angle? And for that was that was
really kind of a game changer for me. So when
(06:48):
you when you are in the math world and you're
going to school, are you devouring comedy and absorbing comedy
and watching the world of comedy eva of on TV
and perform Are you going to comedy clubs? Are you
the funniest guy in the room high school? My bedroom
is full of Jim Carrey posters. I'm watching SNL every weekend.
(07:10):
I'm coming home after school and I'm watching General Hospital
with my mom and then watching Whose Line Is It Anyway? Alone?
And I get to college, I start playing around and
because I'm still an academic, I'm like, well, I want
to know everything about this. And so because we're in Michigan,
I go to Chicago and I go to Detroit to
learn about the second city, and I see that live
(07:31):
and suddenly developed that why why why go to Chicago? No? No, no, meaning,
did you kind of get a sense when you're going
to Kalamazoo and you're a math major from day one.
When you're here, you're going, I don't know, any minute,
I'm may going to the theater program. You know, I'll
be crazy orientation a week I walk on it. So
it's a small college, Kalamazoo College campus of I think
(07:52):
it's it's four hundred people. So it is this. I
could be a big fish and a small puddle. And
there's an improv group. They say, issue for it, see
if you can be in it, And in my mind,
I'm like, you know what, I like this? Whose line
is in anyway thing? I'm kind of a funny guy
in my math classes. I'm gonna audition for this. And
I tell myself there's a lot of people auditioning. If
I get to be in a show in the next
(08:13):
four years, that's a success. And I do that and
week two or three they cast me and it's like
you're in and I'm like, oh, well, this is this
is more success than I expected. And you get that
first laugh and I'm like, actually, I like this so
much more than I thought I would. I know, but
at that point, I'm like, I got a math major
and I got a scholarship that paid for me to
go to college. But I did that again. At this point,
(08:34):
I did that thinking through what my future would be,
and I was like, if I can get college paid for,
I might not be a math teacher or going to
be an actual real scientist. I'll find something in college
that I care about. And at that point, I'm like,
this is the one thing I'm good at. It's the
one thing I enjoy. I don't know how it's a career,
and to be quite honest, I don't think I figured
that out for another decade. But I was still curious
(08:56):
about these things. And so suddenly six months in it's like,
you know what, I like this. I'm gonna take an
acting class. You know, I'll take a I'll take a
lighting men. Yeah. At mentors. I mean, he's he's the guy.
He's the head of the theater arts program at Kalamazoo College,
and he was the guy who sort of shepherd me
into the world of performance. He's like, you're funny, you're smart,
(09:18):
but if you want to know about this stuff, there's
like there's a legacy here. Go to that. Understand that.
And he's a theater nerd who's gonna talk to you
your ear off about Sam Shepherd Ibsen. But he had
Jeffrey Sweets book something wonderful right away, and it's like,
you gotta go to Chicago. Let me tell you about
Nichols and May. This is how comedy started in America
(09:38):
when it comes to sketch and improv. And so I
jump in and I'm certainly reading Viola Spolan. I'm going
to Chicago to watch people improvise on Friday nights. I'm
driving to Chicago and I'm seeing late night shows at
the Improv Olympic. And he was really the guy who
walked me through that I put up my first sketch show.
He introduced me to people in Chicago. I went to Chicago,
got to meet the people I was reading about. Year
(10:00):
is the two one is when I moved to Chicago graduated. Uh.
One of the first shows I see in Chicago, which
might have been two thousand, I was still in college
at the time, I see Rachel Dratch on stage. Uh,
and she's the funniest. I'm saying, that'll do it. You're like,
what is this? And you're in live theater. People are
laughing like they're so engaged. It's smart, it's ridiculous, it's
(10:21):
alive and it's and it's all you tell me if
you don't agree. The comedy that I liked when I
was younger, I watched f Troop and the Monsters, and
I watched The Adams Family and all these cookie shows.
They were clever, they were wonderful actors, funny, deadly timing
and so. But there was a bit of warmth to them.
(10:42):
They weren't snarky like Rachel. There was an innocence to
them and a sweetness to them. And that's the thing
that attracted me most to you was it was not nasty. Well,
that's that's kind of you to say. I think, actually
you've hit on something that people don't talk a lot
about with comedy. Often people talk about like the edgy comedians,
and trust me, I love my Carlin's and I love
(11:03):
the comedians who can cut to the quick like that.
But I will say in the improv role that came
up with your right, there's a warmth because it's an
art form that's sort of built in collaboration. And one
of my one of my early coaches was Keegan Michael Key,
who had moved from Detroit to Chicago. He's this theater nerd,
who was also the best person I've ever do seen
do sketch comedy. He was built to do sketch comedy,
(11:25):
and he was like, I want to work with some
young students, and I'm like twenty three at the time.
And so you work with Keegan and he's like the kindest, warmest,
smartest person you're gonna run into. He's doing this work
at night. That's just mind blowing. And I think, like,
like I grew up and watching people like that. I
loved Python, and you love the Michael Palin's as well,
who sort of bring like an innocence to it. But
(11:46):
it's not at the expense of intelligence. Carlin I think
was edgy and acrid. But everybody he gave it to deserved.
That's what it is, really, they really did. He's not
punching down. I think that's you know, that's one of
the early things. If you're punched it in the right direction,
take those swings, like whatever your whatever, whatever your tactics are,
use them, but but but swing in the right direction.
(12:06):
Now when when you are when you're there, and mentor
says you should try improv I mean obviously, when someone
has a lot of academic promise and you come from
a middle class family, how did your parents feel when
the scholarship mathlete decides I'm gonna go live in poverty.
(12:28):
You know, I'm I am, I am fortunate beyond belief.
I think they were, they were, they weren't continued to
be my my biggest fans. Like I'm doing basement improv
shows at nineteen and I'm and they're coming, they're they're
like the parents who are there amongst amongst a bunch
of drunk college students at a terrible performance. And I
think they the one thing my family, which you know,
(12:50):
as I embark on a family of my own, I
respect most and got most out of it. My family
always showed up, my grandparents and we were lucky, we
were small town count zoo. But if I had a
basketball game, my family was there. My Grandpa would show up,
my Grandma would show up, and like they always were there.
And so when they got to watch me find love
in this thing, be terrible in this thing, and when
(13:13):
graduation came, I'm like, I don't exactly know what I
want to do with my life, but I like, I'm
I'm interested in this world. The math thing it got
me through. Now I have no debt. But the theater
thing I'm curious about. I love Chicago. I was gonna
give it a year. Did you say the same thing,
Did you say, I'm gonna a dabble in this. I
I was bad with deadlines, but I was definitely not
(13:33):
a dabbler. I think, like still the mindset of a mathematician,
like junior year, it starts to uh dawn on me.
It's like, I like Chicago. I think I want to
give this thing a go. How do I make that work?
I wish I had the ego to be like, I'm
gonna kill this thing. I'm gonna walk out and do it.
But I'm like, I need I need a game plan.
I need to make money. And so I'm junior year.
(13:55):
I'm like, I'm not thinking about getting that acting job.
I'm thinking about getting that service job that help me
support trying to get that acting job. So I got
a catering job by jar so it was I was like,
I was like, I got a catering job, so I
have references to get a job in Chicago waiting tables, which,
of course then I never worked waiting tables, but I
had all the good at like there's not enough caviar
(14:18):
on top of this. It's a little light of the kids,
a little bit of I know what you guys are
doing back there. I respect it. For God's sakes. Give
me the caviar. We need that. So you're in Chicago.
How long I'm in Chicago almost ten years? I jumped
and I burned out. Why why? I mean, I think
i'd like to say, you know, I always was moving
(14:39):
to that next thing. I think you get comfortable, like, well,
here's one thing. It's a great town, and I think
you know the entertainment industry, there is no path, but
in the improv world there's the illusion of a path.
You can start taking classes and then you move up
a ladder at second City, you get on the touring company,
and then hopefully you get on one of the stages,
and then you get on SNL. And there was like
(14:59):
there the path when you go to Chicago for success.
That is beneficial for people who don't know how to
make connections, but it becomes detrimental once you're there too long.
And so I sort of I got what I could
get out of it. For five six years, I got better,
I got connections I got close to getting breaks, and
then I got a little complacent, and then and then
I book a thing here, I get a pilot, I
(15:21):
get a couple of little things. I'm like, funk out,
I'm gonna go to New York. Also New York Er
l A. New York was always romantic to me. And
uh and also I have the ship on my shoulder
now of Chicago because I didn't get everything I wanted,
so funck it, Let's go to go to New York.
But this point, I'm in my thirties or I am.
I'm thirty, I think, and and now trying to kind
of restart. I had. I met her touring at Second City.
(15:44):
She's a masochist, so she knew what she knew exactly
what she was getting into. The guy with the math
scholarship who wanted to become a comedian. She's the patron
state of Lost cause, yeah, that's right. I mean, she's
she knew it from the beginning. At that point, she
had dated somebody who was a clown. She had dated
some but like she's she's been in the art world.
She's like, you know, at least this guy she dated,
the Joker, dated the Joker this guy could be our
(16:06):
accountant and it could at least trace our economic downfall.
You can bounce a check, but which is easy because
it's not much in the bank. To time minutes, I
can tell you what we don't have. You met her
where I met her? At Second City? Essentially one of
my side hustles was teaching, uh, underprivileged schools in Chicagoland area,
improv after school, and she was doing the same thing,
(16:28):
and so we suddenly meet there. We get put on
a touring company for a Second City and get launched
into a van across America. And you spent two years
in a van with somebody, Uh, you kind of start
to develop a relationship. Let you went two years in
a van with her, I mean, you're your home here
and there, but it's yeah, you're you're you're I mean
(16:48):
at the time, it's a ton of van, but you're
getting paid seventy five dollars a show, so it is
worth it. You come home after like eight nine shows
in a month, you pay your rent and then where's
Laura from? Where Laura's from Downers Grove outside Chicago, Downers Grove.
That sounds like a Jimmy Stewart movie. I gotta tell
(17:09):
you if the image you have in your head of
Downers Grove fits covered bridges, Edmund Gwen with a beard
winging a ball out in front of Kresky's. They have
like a claim to fame for the largest flagpole. But
I looked it up and it's not height, it's width.
And that's where did she go? She goes to Northwestern
(17:30):
and she kind of she thinks she's gonna be a poet,
and she's going into writing programs and then suddenly finds herself,
uh loving acting. Northwestern is a grade school, finding improv
finding second city. She we laugh. Megan Marco was in
one of her classes, which is you know, you kind
of they deal with jealousy in this world, but when
you're literal classmate becomes a princess and a movie star,
(17:52):
you get pretty jealous and Jaden, So Laura's always dealing
with that. And she finds Chicago kind of the same
way I did, but from the suburbs, and she's a
she's a better performer, a little bit more artistic. She
was doing stuff with other theater companies, a more uh
straight theater in town. Uh. But we get kind of
put on this team together and and sort of find
(18:12):
that we both like the same stuff, we like each other,
and then we decide buck, let's let's quit this team
and let's move to New York. And we did it
about two years after we quit. That. I don't want
to get to but I think it's interesting how you
have that if things had played out differently, you said
that she went to Northwestern and studied poetry or literature.
What is your degree in poetry? Poetry and creative writing?
So if you had played your cards differently, you could
(18:34):
be teaching math at the Kuran Instituted Inn by U.
Your wife could be an editor at the New Yorker.
But instead the two of you were in a band
for two years driving around. Yeah again, you know, emotional
choices were made. If I had stuck to the mathematical brain,
and I would be so much more successful right now
and not stuck in my apartment having not thought through
what happens when true So when you come to New York,
(18:58):
you're in Chicago for ten years, you go to New York. Now,
the overwhelming number of people that I have worked with,
whether it's Dirty Rock or esn NO like right now,
the SnO cast is remote for the shows from l A,
many of them, it's more like live from my bedroom
in l A. The comedy world is in l A.
You don't go to l A. Why I don't like
(19:18):
l A. I've grown to be okay with it. But
I think l A's and one industry town, which is
good if you want to get in an industry, and
I think there's more opportunities there. I think New York
has always been held this romantic appeal to me. You're
You're never the most interesting person in the room, and
I think most of my time in New York has
has been failing and finding camaraderie with other people who
(19:39):
are failing along with you. And I think that shared
suffering brings a connection to New York, a richness to
New York. Uh that, don't get me wrong. I think
I we're consistently talking about l A for those opportunities.
But I think I've always I've always loved the people
I run into here, and so when we launched into
moving to New York, we stumbled on the UCB folks.
We stumbled on people who are like, if you come
(20:01):
to New York, you're gonna be hustling from day one,
because it's too expensive, you're leaving something behind and you've
got skin in the game. And so immediately we made
our best friends here. We made people who are creative
in different worlds, were animators, who are actors, who are writers,
who are chefs, and suddenly, like get populated with this
this rich, full life. Even if we weren't finding success
(20:22):
career wise, I feel like our life filled out really
quickly and beautifully here. And so every time I think
of l A and we still do, it's it's a
career decision, but the life decision continues to pull us
back towards New York, because to me, it's you have kids,
we have one on the way, and uh, if one
on the way, we have we have one. Uh even
(20:44):
we you've been with her, how long now you've been
We've been now a little over a decade. And only
now did you decide to get they got I think
we got engaged three years after dating, held on to
engagement for another three years. We put that off, and
when the virus came and shut down the whole business,
that's when you turned your said let's have it's time
to double down on humanity. I really think what this
(21:04):
world needs is more people. This it's going great. Let's
I know, it's it's a really weird we've with all
of this. It's been so strange to both consider what's
happening in the future outside of these four walls. The
exact moment when it was okay for us to tell
people that we were pregnant correlated with the stay at
home orders, and so now this child has been brought
(21:25):
into a world where every time we announced that he's coming,
it's met with like, that's great. Also, are you okay?
There's already this anxiety and that's been attached to this
little child in the womb. Daily Show correspondent and comedian
Jordan Clepper. We'll talk Trump in the second half of
the show, And like many funny men, Clepper is a
(21:47):
deep thinker about the state of American politics. A few
years ago, I spoke to the novelist and political observer
Steve Erickson about how we got to our current woeful
political state. His answer was especially poignant in light of
the recent unrest. It's a lack of acknowledgement that keeps
(22:08):
us from fulfilling the American idea. Whether they're trying to
rationalize the meaninglessness of Vietnam, or two and fifty years
of slavery. It maybe in the American DNA too, always
think that everything is year zero. It might be in
(22:28):
the American DNA to have cut ourselves aloose from history
and therefore not ever have to answer for it or
to it. Trump is not something that happened to America.
America happened to America, and Trump is the result of that.
For a link to my full conversation with Steve Erickson
(22:49):
and his new novel text ericson to seven zero zero one.
That's E R I c K s O N to
seven zero one zero one. I'm Ali Baldwin, and this
(23:12):
is here's the thing. A van and a dream brought
Jordan Clepper to New York in two thousand eleven. His
relationship with the network that would make him famous started immediately,
but not well within a year or two. I sell
a pilot with Comedy Central, and I get to make
a pilot, and then I get to have my heartbroken
when they don't pick up that pilot, and I get
(23:35):
to hope another one is just around the corner, and
get close and close, and then it doesn't happen. So
it's you know, I'm having little work here and there,
but it's it's probably six years into New York until
the the big Daily Show break happens. Uh. And two
years before that, I'm working pretty regularly writing on a
bunch of jobs, weird MTV two shows, reality shows, whatever
(23:56):
kind of I can get. But it doesn't happen until
about six years in when the Daily Show finally it's like, oh,
here's here's a legitimate opportunity. And I guess essentially the
big break you were there for. I think, if I
if I read the calendar the right way, you were
there for about a year when John was still about
a year year and a half with John, so I
jumped in when John Oliver left to go to do
(24:17):
the HBO show, and then about a year and then
John announced he was leaving and we had I think
like six months more until Trevor came in. So I
basically got a year and a half with John, a
year and a half with Trevor, uh, which was wild.
I mean it was it was a day. I love
the Daily Show. That was definitely a show that I
was growing up watching and watching people watching the Coldbets,
the Corral, the dead back at all is everybody spin
(24:39):
off from it? You were there how long when Trevor
was off for about a year and a half, and
then you know, I uh, and then I went off
and did the eleven thirties show afterwards, and Trevor was
really helpful and he was an EP on that as well,
and stayed close. And now and now I've you know,
I still do pieces here and there with Daily Show,
but as far as like uh, day in and day out,
(25:01):
I almost split almost exactly a year and a half
with John year and a half with Trevor, which was
which was really like such a mind shift because you
come into John and John was tell me, what would
tell me about the difference. I walk into John Stewart,
you know, Uh, a guy I've been watching on television
for years, somebody who's one of the smartest political minds
out there, and I'd just to be able to like
(25:23):
to audition in front of him, you know, took uh,
some steely reserve and some bullshit confidence that I had
to muster, and then to walk in day one. I mean,
I remember my first day. It happened so quick, and
they kind of hire you because you can jump into
the fire and day one I walk in. I had
auditioned three days before Crimea had been invaded, and they're
(25:45):
talking about it in the morning meeting and they're like, Jordan,
you're gonna do a chat on this, come to John's office.
And suddenly I'm brought it to John Stewart's office my
first day. I'm twenty five minutes into the day and
John's not only talking about what happened in Crimea, He's
talking about two op eds he's already read this morning.
I fucking don't know where Crimea is, but I have to.
I have to brainstorm with John fun ideas for the
(26:06):
show that night, and you're just in it. But I
think like that show. He's like, I only hire people
that I trust who can make this thing happen. And
so I learned so much from him. He was clearly
such a mentor, and he was so I think one
of the virtues he had that always resonates beyond kindness
and intelligence is decisiveness. Like he knew what he wanted,
he knew how to get to it. You'd film a
(26:27):
piece that need to kind of a minute and a
half so that I could go to air that night
and he'd make those decisions while the live audience is there,
um and under a minute he'd be like, we kind
of here, we cut here and make sure you edit
from this point. He just knew what he wanted, and
I think that was something as I got to move.
It's very much like Lauren I I would imagine. So
Lauren's genius was too to be on the deck of
(26:47):
the carrier. There the water is coming up of the deck,
you know what I mean. It's just really pretty tumultuous
to put the thing together and deciding, you know, what
is the show in terms of the flow of the
show and what works now. Leno Leno of course would
interview people on the street. And as I think I
told you when we were talking on the phone, when
I was sucking up to you to get you to
(27:09):
do this show with it took multiple phone calls. I
really was holding out, Yeah, you got the Greater's ice
cream that I sent you. Let's let's hurry this up,
Aule the But you know, Leno would do those interviews
on the street with people and it was you know,
like borderline appalling. You thought to myself, my god, I
mean this is stage because they were so stupid. What
(27:29):
state is Washington, d C? You know, Washington State? And
I didn't find it funny. It was so stupid, you
know what I mean? Now you go off. When I
watched you do this, I mean I'd be howling laughing,
and I don't. I don't laugh at a lot of stuff.
And you played it flawlessly. You know the first time
you did this, Describe what it was like. You didn't
feel threatened or you felt relatively safe. I will see.
(27:49):
What was interesting was, you know, with the Daily Show,
you do Man on the Streets, and I had done
Man on the Streets a little bit before for other topics. Uh.
And then when the Trump phenomenon came, the first time
I went to one of those rallies, I remember, I
think it was January of that year, what have you?
And we started hearing about these rallies, hearing about the
support that he had, and I think what I was
(28:09):
immediately shocked by one was the excitement surrounding him. People
were waiting in the snow. I remember our first piece,
We're waiting in the snow for hours, uh, and they were.
They immediately jumped into Trump talking points in a way
that the people I talked to beforehand. Usually, usually you
do a man on the street. People are really reserved
about what they actually feel. They understand the lines of
(28:32):
human decency or the opinions they should have out loud
and the opinions they should keep to themselves. And what
you started to see a Trump rallies right off the
bat is that that line shifted. They like, for example,
the birtherism, h Barack Obama secret Muslim those ideas were
very fringey. And I remember, even having done man on
the street stuff before Trump, you never get people to
(28:53):
talk about that. That would be such a diamond in
the rough that somebody actually revealed that. But suddenly at
these Trump situations, people were becoming revelatory. They're like, well,
I can share this now because the guy I'm going
in to see is going to say the same thing,
so I can. I can begin to share that. And
so right off the bat it was surprisingly I wouldn't
say antagonistic, it was almost jubilant. People were excited. They
were excited about this guy. They didn't feel threatened. Over
(29:15):
the course of the next six months, the relationship to
the press became antagonistic. We would get heckled wherever we went,
and there'll be threats of violence. Um, you have to
have security with you. We did, yeah, and I mean,
and the security keeps building as we continue to go.
The last one I went out, we had a few.
And it's it's a mix, like if you have a camera,
(29:36):
you're a target at those rallies and you'll get yelled at,
people will hound you info wars might try to come
up and and bomb you. Uh. But you're also met
with people who are like, I want to engage with you,
I want to I want to fight with you, I
wanna I wanna give you my p O V. And
so uh, I want to straighten you out. I mean,
that's the thing with we always say with like daily
show pieces, people ask like why did they talk to you,
(29:58):
and it's it's it's one people like to win and
think they can win, and two people want to be
on television. And so even though you have a paranoia
of the press, you have a lot of people who
want the attention of a camera and have the ego
of victory. Right, we talked on the phone before, but
you were talking to that one woman saying, uh, you
(30:20):
know marriage equality, do you think a gay couple should
have the same rights as No, I don't, I really don't.
I don't think it's fair to the gay couple. Well, no,
but the ringlet couple they work so hard, you know,
and a gay couple they want more. Do you when
you say more, do you mean equal? Yeah? They want
(30:40):
in there and that's just too much. And the way
you lead them, the way you pull them slowly over
to the cliff. That one guy who was talking about,
you know, respecting, what's an American ideal that we treat
women with respect? You tell me about your shirt, Well,
let's it say Trump that bitch? You know that? To me,
that's like a comedy classic, that tape of your But
at the same time, do you feel like that's become
(31:03):
like shooting fish in a barrel? Did you ever feel
like you were punching down, you know, with the with
the rallies, I feel Donald Trump plays to his crowd,
and I think his crowd dictates the policy more often
than not the way in which the uh the administration
responds to their wants and their needs. So I think
the pieces that I feel most proud of when we
go out to these rallies are those ones where we're
(31:24):
essentially testing the thesis. We're testing whether or not if
he's going to use reading the training script as the baseline,
if he's gonna welcome his fan base into that conversation.
I think they deserve to be interrogated, a cross examined,
and by who else than somebody who was a mock
trial national champion. I mean this, this is my opinion,
and I on the show, I try to avoid too
(31:46):
much Trump bashing, But but do you believe that these
people you meet in the heartland, so to speak, they
simply believe that Trump was the person that they were
sold on The Apprentice, that he was this crack executive,
the super smart, rich guy who knew how to run
a company, and he was decisive. How much do you
(32:07):
think the Apprentice and his persona from that came into
the I think I think that's a large part of
the equation. I think Donald Trump has been a brand
in America for decades. And you realize there's a lot
of people who are political walks, and we'll follow the
day to day, but there's most of this country's too
busy working other jobs to focus on that. And the
(32:29):
brand of Trump has been for so long one of success.
He reminds me of the CEO of a lot of
these companies. I go to my dad's brick conferences, and
I go to things in the middle of Pennsylvania or Kentucky,
and I will see, like, oh, there's the big conference
where everybody comes together and they see the CEO, and
the CEO loves to have a flashy car, a big suit,
(32:52):
allowed tie, and for a lot of people, that's what
success is. And Trump has been the brand of that
kind of success for so long that Trump supporters see
that and that has been what they're aiming for. They
see that as a well lived life. He's got a
model wife, he's got a gold apartment, and he says
what's on his mind. That's what they want to be.
I think you mix that with uh people needing to
(33:14):
feel validated like their team is winning. And he's been
so good at the tribalistic like I'm not wearing a
John McCain had. He was standing for people. Trump stands
for himself and says, you can be on my team. Yeah,
I mean us. If we're going specifically to rallies, you
realize we're not engaging in conversations about what actually could
happen within this country. I'm picking on you in a
way that you're treating like an Ohio State fan. I'm
(33:36):
a Michigan fan. I'm like, oh, these are the conversations
I have with the buck Eyes talking about their team,
because this is your identity, this isn't your political belief
and so I think liberals are gonna be are gonna
be frustrated, continue to be frustrated, waiting for that thing
that is going to change people's point of view on
Donald Trump. Well, you know, to me, the president sees
the world from a vantage point that no other human
(33:58):
being could ever attain ever, and it's changed as a
result of that. With one exception, there's only one man
who is as hate filled, myopic, self seeking now as
he was when he started the job, and maybe even more.
For change, you need, you need at least an ounce
of humility where you might not know everything. And when
(34:19):
that comes asking an expert, asking someone else, or the
ability to be to be moved. I'll take the information
work I can get. And I think like it's been
been set up so that it's only a conflict, and
I think Trump only survives conflict by doubling down when
we talk about when you're talking to people. I can
play logic games when I talk to folks. So I
think what is often cathartic about talking to people on
(34:40):
the streets is Trump makes proclamations that fall apart when
they're pressed with logic, and I think he leaves it
to his space to attempt to justify it, and there's
no justification behind most of these things. Well, what's one
memory among many? I'm sure of a moment for you
where you actually even you even you've seen who, who's
(35:00):
who's seen all the ingredients in the Buoya Bays of
American political thought. Oh my god, there's you know, one
of the last rallies I went to, there was a
moment that sort of encapsulated everything. I thought. It was
beautifully honest. There was a woman I was talking to.
It was it was right around it was during impeachment
and as the storyline was going about whether or not
(35:21):
you know, Trump is blocking subpoenas, he's not let anybody testify, um,
Bolton won't testify, um. And there's this narrative going on
which is like, well, he claims on one side that
he's completely innocent, uh, and but he won't let any
information in to prove that innocence. So we go out
to talk about impeachment and there was this like should
these people testify to his innocence if that's what you believe.
(35:43):
This woman was very clear. She was like, you can
tell he hasn't done anything wrong just by his demeanor.
I mean he would be trying to hide things. If
he were blocking witnesses or evidence or something like that,
you'd be like, oh, you're hiding something. But otherwise, right,
he said, let him see everything, let him I'll prove
whatever you want. You want me to prove. Right, But
(36:04):
Trump is blocking witnesses. I don't care. I don't care.
And I was like, you don't care. Yeah, I was like,
I believe you. I think that's true. It's like, this
is just a game, this conversation we're having is this
is a ridiculous statement. He said, it's contradictory all of
(36:25):
these things. I heard a beautiful quote that was about like,
facts don't always tell you who you are, but contradiction
often does reveal you. I think it was Hilton Owls
who said that, and I was like, oh, yeah, in
these contradictions, we see the warring faction of like, oh,
I believe this he's in. It doesn't matter if you
believe he's in you you believe this guy, you don't
trust me the media telling you something else, And if
(36:46):
I give you the facts, it's not going to change it.
You don't care. You've already you've already cast your ballot.
The show I did after the Daily Show called The Opposition.
The golden rule of that character was, may you only
hear from others what you've already been helling yourself. That
show lasted how long? Not long enough is what I
would say, a little under a year. And when a
(37:06):
show like that doesn't work out, what do you attribute
that too? Well, I mean it was because you were
doing so well with them. Well, I think like we
jumped into that. They were at a hard time fielding slot. Uh,
it's hard to put up a late night show, to
be quite honest. Everybody was like, it takes a it
takes some time, a year to two years to get
that audience. The audience numbers were okay, they weren't blowing
(37:27):
everything out of the water. And the network they were like,
there's six late night shows right now, you're like the seventh.
We feel there's Trump fatigue, and they were they were
bummed I wasn't able to go on the road, to
be honest, and they were like that that's why that
basically ended, because they were like, we think it's overcrowded
right now. Can we shift you to do a show
where you're on the road the whole time? And it
(37:48):
was kind of a bummer, to be quite honest. You
build up a whole show around you know, you have
a eight plus people working for you, and you're like,
we we have a couple we have a couple of
years to get this thing going. I think we had
some some great stuff things we were proud of, but
I think the numbers and the crowded marketplace pushed us
out pretty quick, and and the network was in a
weird place, continues to be in a weird place trying
(38:09):
to figure out how to compliment the daily show in
these times of lots of late nine uh is like
traditional TV sitcom for camera, single camera, Will and Gray's
thirty Rock or the Office, that kind of thing. Is
that something that appeals to you or do you assiduously
avoid that kind of thing? The casting director usually helps
(38:30):
me avoid those kinds of decisions. And they actually they've
been vigilant and not giving me those opportunities. Traditional television sitcoms,
all of that are things I'm curious and I'm dabbled
in here and there. I think as I've as I've
spent time getting that daily show opportunity did shift my mindset,
where before that it was I will do anything and everything.
(38:51):
And I still curious and love the experience of those things.
But I've really gotten a lot out of being able
to to be a part of projects where you get
to control kind of the point of view in the voice,
and so the projects to be able to go out
and produce my own pieces or specials or write my
own stuff has kind of been the priority to do
your own thing, to do my own thing, and I think,
like that's incredibly attractive, and I think like, I'm I'm
(39:13):
aware enough to know that the world doesn't necessarily need
my acting chops. Those are taken care of, thanks a
lot Alec for grabbing all the big roles that would
have obviously gone to me. Sure, but I'm like, oh,
but I think I I think I know how to
wrangle points of view and kind of speak to some
of these other topics doing the opposition. Doing those shows,
(39:33):
it was exhausting but also liberating to kind of to
get to work through the ship. You're purists. That I'm
a purist, but I'm gonna be a father. So anything
you have for God's sakes. Comedian and generally available person
Jordan Clapper. His two documentary series, Jordan Clapper Solves Guns
(39:53):
and Clapper are funny, nuanced dives into complex issues. They're
available on Amazon and YouTube. By Malick Baldwin and this
is Here's the thing
Host
Alec Baldwin
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