Are robots alive?

With each year, scientists are building increasingly complex robots, leading to one vital question: At what point does a robot become defined as a living thing, rather than a mechanical device? Tune in to learn more about living robots in this podcast.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff from the Science Lab from how stuff
works dot com. Hey guys, this is Alice not Am
with the science editor at how stuff works dot com.
This is Robert Lamb's science writer at how stuff works
dot com. And uh, this podcast, we're talking about robots

(00:26):
and then they're not there alive? Yeah, big question? Are
robots alive? So you just got into this question when
you wrote the similarly named article for Discovery News, right, Yes, yeah,
we've been doing a bunch of these big questions for
Discovery News. Um, and we've been doing some big questions
for How stuff Works as well. Just you know, our
robots alive? Um. You know what are some other ones

(00:49):
Strickland wrote about it too. Yeah, Strickland wrote one about
robot consciousness and all, and it's a very related issue.
We're not going to get in as much into consciousness,
but deal more of with definitions of life and how
robots may or may not meet that criteria. Yes, I
believe it or not, there are quite a few definitions
of life out there, So let's get onto one of

(01:11):
the more scientific definitions of life, and that is one
in which proteins and nucleic acids interacting ways that allow
a structure to grow and reproduce. Yeah, I think pretty
obvious robots is not going to meet that particular criteria, right, So, yeah,
that's a that's a that this is definitely um describing life,

(01:32):
defining life as organic um in a very particular manner
that applies to us, definitely, So so no go on
robots for that one. However, there's another definition that life
is a system that's capable of Darwinian evolution, all right.
To meet this criteria, robot would have to be able
to reproduce and make more of itself, and it would
also need a source of variation, so right, so that

(01:55):
all of the new generation wouldn't be identical to the
previous and that all the sub links would be varied
as well. So then natural selection could take place because
when obviously when humans reproduce or or or any animal, uh,
they're not creating exact um you know, replicants of themselves
and that creating clones. They're creating variations. And the whole ideas,

(02:17):
you know, the whole idea is that that we're going
to create a lot of different variations on this successful model,
and we'll see if an even more successful model will
come out of it, or if there's a variation that
will be more adapt for the you know, for the
current situation, right mutation as the spice of life exactly. So, um, yeah,
I can robots do that. A couple of people have

(02:39):
taken a shot at this, right Yeah. Yeah, the more
more than a couple. But there are a couple of
that are that are rather interesting to look at. There's
a Cornell team that built they built this robot, and
these are robots. This particular robot especially is one that
was designed only to replicate itself in a very simple manner,
so it's not it's not like it's doing other things

(02:59):
and then on the side it's making more of itself. Um. Basically,
this one is made up of a series of modular cubes,
and each cube has all the like you know. Basically,
it's kind of like a block robot. Imagine little little
cubes and all in the cubes contain the robotics, if
you will. This is no crepf right, and it sort
of builds itself out of these blocks, and then it
can build another of itself out of other blocks. But

(03:22):
the blocks are already built. But it's it's so it's
very rudimentory. Right, So there's that one and there's the
English guys right out of the University of Bath. Yeah.
What's it called rep wrap, which I like a lot,
and that's short for replicating rapid prototyper. So with this
particular bot is concerned with, is it prints out these
thin layers of molten biodegradable plastic and those layers can

(03:44):
then be used to create its own three D parts.
It can also make sandals, no way. Yeah, yeah, they
had like it's it's basically yeah, it's like, you know,
it's like almost like a router, you know, it's just
making little shape fils for for humans. Yeah, are you serious? Yeah,
it's like basically it's like I said, these are very
simple robots. It's kind of you know, it's just making

(04:05):
remarkable thing that it can make it well anyway, like
these are just the baby steps towards you know, the
sort of the very sci fi ideas that you might
see and say Stanislaw Limbs The Invisible or Philip K.
Dick's Second Variety, you know, or um, I guess Terminators
were Terminator um movie nine, you know who? You have
robots that are making more of themselves. You know, this

(04:26):
is this is how it begins, except hopefully it doesn't
end quite as dismally. Yeah. So, one interesting question that
came up when you're researching this was the question of
whether computer viruses are alive. Yeah. A lot of people
make the argument that they are UM, including Stephen Hawking.
But remember, yeah, and I'm one of those documentaries that
are getting so much media coverage right now on Discovery

(04:49):
Channel Into the Universe. Yeah, for the web presence for it. Um.
So yeah, our computer viruses alive. Well. One thing to
keep in mind is that y ular viruses are tricky
enough to define um depending on who you ask. That
kind of occupy a gray area the viruses and again
with these organic viruses, like most of the internal structure

(05:10):
and machinery that characterize many definitions of life, including the
biosynthetic machinery that is necessary for reproduction. In order for
a virus to replicate, it has to infect a host cell.
But computer viruses, on the other end, have this sort
of partially automated ability to reproduce. But the virus itself,
this is an important distinction, is not the agent of reproduction.

(05:32):
The computer is. Yeah, I ran across a great analogy
for this, uh in Eugene HS. Stafford's Computer Viruses as
Artificial Life, which is a great read. You can find
it online and pdf form. Yeah, he points out that
the virus is not the agent of reproduction, the computer is.
He said, so if he argues in this that or
he makes the analogy. So so yeah, he uh, he

(05:55):
makes the analogy that if if that is life, then
printed out prints of a for a Xerox machine or life, right,
like a big stack of papers that have all the
plans for the zero Well, okay, so I I give
that these plans to you, right, and then you could
technically use those plans to make a Xerox machine correct,
And then you could take those plans put them through

(06:17):
the Xerox machine, and then you have a new copy
and a replica of the Then you have two stacks
of Xerox plans, Stack A and Stack B, and then
you could take Stack B and I could read them,
build a Xerox machine and then run Stack B through
the zero new Xerox machine and create Stack C. That's
really interesting. Yeah, but you know so, But obviously the

(06:40):
stack of papers just to stack of paper with information
on them, so, so I found that particularly interesting. Of course,
the other question would be can a computer virus evolve? Um?
That's another problem. According to Stafford, While a complex computer
virus might be able to adapt and evolve, um, you know,
he argues that this kind of virus would be larger

(07:01):
than most host programs and possibly larger than the host
system as well. Um, virus is out there and on
the Internet. They do evolve, but generally, but in the
sense that there's an author out there who is who
tweaks them and uh, and it makes them adapt m
so that they can, you know, better, screw with your browser. Right.

(07:22):
So then if you if you look at it that way,
you wouldn't necessarily call it computer virus alive, right, because
the agent of change here is, you know, some guy
in Korea on a PC putting Korean there. Well, I
thought there seems like there was a big story where
they were certain they were like, I mean, they're everywhere
saying that all computer virus authors are in Korea by

(07:44):
any means. So let's let's talk about the difference between
automatons and actual robots. Um. Yeah, this is something important
to keep in mind and something that came out of
a conversation I had with Idaho National Laboratory roboticist Derek Wadsworth. Um.
He said that you, on one hand, you have an

(08:05):
automaton and this is like a mechanical manipulator on the
vehicle assembly line. Right. Have you seen some of the
pictures of the robots on vehicle assembly lines are pretty amazing. Yeah.
I've not only seen pictures, I've seen moving pictures of them. Excellent. Yeah,
I seetimes. They used to show them on Sesame Street,
didn't they. I've never seen that. You've never seen Sesame Street. No,
I've never seen a particular part of the robot version

(08:26):
of Sesame Street. It's just auto assembly line machines. Um.
So okay. So they have the ability, these robot arms
that are putting together cars, they have the ability to
sense and act um like a vehicle frame advances on
a conveyor belt, the manipulator since is its presence and
then installs a windshield. A true robot applies an extra
step in this process, and that's reason. It analyzes the

(08:48):
sense data and then acts based on its computations. And
the cool thing is that is humans we have those capabilities,
so and everything we do. We're constantly processing our environment
where you know, smelling what's cooking, analyzing um, what that
smell means to us, and then we're producing an action.
You know, we're going to the kitchen to you know,
sniff out an extra donut that somebody left in the

(09:10):
break room. Yeah, but that's one of the things that
there's so many little bits of since data that we
absorbed and we don't even realize we're absorbing them and
just you know, it's it's happening subconsciously. And then where
we're computing that with like past life experiences, you know,
some of which may you know a lot of data
from the past, et cetera. Gets it gets so complicated

(09:31):
that we're not even aware of most of what's going on.
So to apply this to robots according to Watts, where
if they're alive in the sense that, yes, some robots
do in fact have the abilities to sense, reason and act.
So I'd say I'd score one point for robots being alive. Yeah, yeah,
that sounds pretty good. In fact, one of the robots
that you can make a case for being alive actually

(09:53):
lives in my house and probably a lot of a
lot of listeners have I'm so jealous of this. I
totally want to remove although I just got a really, really,
really great vacuum, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, but
who's the who's the agent of vacuuming in in that scenario,
that's true, I am the Asian vacuuming those kids. Give
those those kids to work vacuuming, and we are not
let them touch money vacuum. We'll see that. That's the
great thing about the room. But it's the room. But

(10:15):
is vacuuming obviously, And it's not just it's easy. If
you if you've never played with one of these before, UM,
you know it's it's it's great because it's not just
bouncing off the walls and just randomly vacuating the whole house.
You know, it's um you know, it's actually measuring, you
know where it is. It's it's reacting to the environment
and and like creating this map of where things are,

(10:37):
UM so that the next time it comes into your
kitchen and remembers that, oh gosh, the trash can is
situated in the corner. And I'm not going to go
in this direction. Well, I'm not sure about the more
advanced models. Another one we have it. It's like it
seems like each time you turn it on, it's like
it's it's a new learning experience. But during that run,
it'll you know, it'll get smarter as it goes. Um,

(10:58):
how does your cat feel about They don't get along
all that? Well, they don't hate each other, but they
don't like to hang out. Um, and uh, you know,
and then the room, bob, you know, it's you still
have to actually clean it and things like that. It's
not that's the thing the problem. Some people get the
room and they're light. You're like, hooray, I never have
to mess with a vacuum cleaner again. And that's wrong
and actually need to clean it out. Um. Can I

(11:20):
ask you a personal question? Go for it? How often
do you vacuum? Um? Or you or your partner? Um,
we turn on the room, but I don't know, maybe once.
So it depends on the room. And the cat actually
plays a big role in this because there's like one
carpet that the cat likes to to roll around on
and so she sheds a lot on that carpet. So
then the room but has to go in and suck

(11:43):
up all the hair. So actually the cat in the room.
But I really have a very close relationship in that sense. Um,
the big thing to keep in mind with with any
room but though is don't let it taste human blood,
because then it's then it's all over. They become man
killers and they have to be put down. But then, anyway,
to the point is that you can make a very

(12:04):
good argument that the room but is alive. It's uh,
it's it gets to what it's expecting a wall, it's
expecting some some sort of obstacle in the way, and
it forms the map of the room so it doesn't
need to run into those objects anymore. So again, in
the automanton robot division, it's it's all about defining what
is a robot. And you know earlier we're talking about

(12:25):
what is life. There are other there are other robotists
who go as far as to say, hey, um, you know,
technically are cars or robots? You know, they have all
these different integrated computer systems I think upwards like a
dozen in some of the price here automobiles. Yeah, I
don't know what you're driving, but my car does not
qualify for that category. Really, Yeah, my CD player doesn't

(12:47):
even work. It's busted. But but here's the thing. Do
you think your car is alive? I don't really think
of it as such, although I did give it a name. Yeah,
would you name your car M Francis for see you
see your car? Then in a since your car is
more alive in my car, which has no name, mine's
just the car. I can't I generally can't even remember
what make a model it is much. I know what

(13:09):
makes a model it is? Yeah, yeah, mine cool? Because
we used to park at that same mortestation. Oh did we?
And you were coming in like messing with my car? No, no, no,
I would never do that. Well not, and that's your
car at least. But but but I actually underlined something
important about the whole issue of like robots and whether
they're alive or not. I mean, a lot of it

(13:30):
comes down to our It comes on to our perception
a lot of the times. You know, it's like the
more robots seems to be alive, the more you know
it is alive, at least to us. But then that's
that's kind of our failings as human. Like you draw
anything that kind of looks like a smiley face, and
we instantly begin to yeah, we anthro morpie. Everything that's true,

(13:53):
we do. So what what what mean for for robots
if they reach the point where they are definitely alive? Sure?
Do they have rights? Yeah? Do they have rights? Can
they marry? Um? I read an interesting argument about whether
or not it's a good idea to send them off
into space, because self replicating intelligent robots would be great

(14:14):
for exploring the universe. You know, just send them out,
let them harvest new resources as they go. But is
that ethical to send an army of robots to another
you know, to just an exoplanet to eat it and
make more of themselves. Right, we know already that robots
gets some of the less attractive jobs. Let's say, Yeah,
like at my house, like I get to do the

(14:36):
you know, the cool things like move things into the attic. Right,
I assume you're not down on the floor. Second up
cat hair. Yeah, I mean that's the whole thing. It's like,
we have a robot, we don't have to vacuum anymore.
And you know, or even in the case of the
recent oil spill that's messing with the Gulf coast right now.
I mean, what's the first thing people say, Well, sending
the robots to see if they can set off or
turn off that massive week. I'm kidding. I think robots

(14:57):
should obviously do a lot of these crazy job ups
and we shouldn't put humans at risk, but they do
get a lot of really bad jobs. Yeah, there's a
there's a great moment on a Futurama where Bender the
right here for watch Futurama. Yeah, Bender the robot. You know,
he gets all up in arms when somebody at a
ballgame like breaks a beer bottle and like a little

(15:18):
robot comes up and cleans it out, cleans it up,
and he's and he makes a big outcry about all
I look at and they're not not the human child
who has to clean up the mess. It's true. We
put the robots to work, and if they end up
with rights someday, then you know, maybe they'll have to
uh have to have some robotic from an in action.
I don't know. So let us know what you think.
Do you think robots are alive? Do you think they

(15:39):
will become alive? Do you think Robert is a robot? Cars?
Did Alison key my car? Yeah? If you have an
opinion on any of these things, send us an email
at Science Stuff at has Differ Dot com, so come
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(16:00):
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(16:22):
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