September 26, 2019 • 51 mins
Mark Mandica, executive director of the Amphibian Foundation, returns to Stuff to Blow Your Mind to discuss the ongoing challenges of amphibian conservation as well as the value of two unfairly-vilified reptiles: the copperhead snake and the common snapping turtle.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production
of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome
to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert
Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and I was just out
of town. While I was out, Robert, you chatted with
(00:20):
some old guests of the show. You you brought back
our friend Mark Mandeka. Right, that's right, Mark Mandinka, executive
director of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. He spoke
with us pretty much just a year ago, like almost
exactly a year ago about you know, the challenges of
amphibian conservation, about what the Amphibian Foundation does, and also
highlighted some really gnarly species of amphibian and discussed their
(00:45):
their interesting ways of reproducing. Uh. So that was a
fun chat. And so since it had been a year
and since Mark is a you know, a local guest,
UH called him in and uh he joined me for
a chat about again amphibian concert vation, what the Amphibian
Foundation has been up to. That's going to be in
the first half of the interview, uh and uh. And
(01:06):
then in the second half the interview, Well, we're going
to talk about some often vilified reptiles, namely in in
our neck of the woods here the copper head snake
and the snapping turtle. Like why we know to what
extent can we even answer the question why are these
creatures persecuted? But then also what roles do they play
(01:27):
in our environment and why we should value those roles? Awesome? Well,
I cannot wait to hear this conversation. So should we
jump right into the interview with Mark Mandica. Let's jump
right into the Amphibian Pod. All right, Mark, welcome back
to the show. And uh, for for anyone who maybe
a little foggy on on your last appearance or didn't
(01:49):
listen to that episode, Uh yet, can you go ahead
and introduce yourself to everyone? Absolutely, and thanks for having
me Mark Mandica, co founder and executive director of the
Amphibian Fundation. So yeah, you joined us on the show
about a year ago and outlined the mission of the
Amphibian Foundation and and uh and you know what what
whin It's work and the work of other amphibian conservation
(02:11):
groups are so important. A year later, have there been
any like really you know, great success stories, any new challenges?
You know, well, what what what is it like? A
year later in the realm of amphibian conservation. Well, thanks,
that's a great question, and a lot has happened in
the last year. I'm happy to say, Uh, the Amphibian
(02:32):
Foundation has grown a lot. We've recruited lots of passionate
staff and interns and volunteers. I think we're up over
eighty now, so that's exciting. UM. We have been expanding
our conservation programs as well. Now. I believe I mentioned
last time that the majority of our captive propagation animals
(02:53):
were hatched recently. So unfortunately I can't relay any success
with our captive breeding program AMPS because the animals are
still very very young. UM. But in the light of that,
we've we've expanded our facilities so we have UM lots
of capacity for rearing endangered amphibians and are very hopeful
(03:14):
we'll have some captive breathing success very soon. And in
the last episode that that we are connected with you, you
you talked to you know about the the challenges that
are faced by so many of these species facing endangerment
and extinction and how susceptible they are to to pollution
and environmental dangers, a large part because of the fact
(03:36):
that they breathe through their skin. Yes, Um, they are
a beacon for us. You know, Um, you'll never see
an amphibian drink, for example, they just absorb it all
right through their skin. So anything that we've done to
the environment or put in the environment is absorbed into
the amphibians and they are responding. You know, they have
(03:57):
um well documented UH bonds is to agricultural chemicals. For example,
where animals can can develop extra limbs or no limbs.
These aren't injuries, they're just not developing their limbs properly.
So that's pretty terrifying. And it's also very well documented
that certain agricultural chemicals will effeminize male amphibians, so that
(04:20):
large populations are are biased towards female or or I
think even entirely female, depending on the dosage. And of course,
another big challenge in our environment is climate change and
uh the various effects of climate change, including extreme weather,
and I understand you have an angle on this to
discuss with us here today. Absolutely so our primary focus,
(04:45):
or our first focus has been on the flatwood salamander
and they're a coastal plaine species and so as we
are developing tools to produce animals for release into the wild.
Our partners are working on storing habitat and basically, uh,
you know, following the models and not really considering areas
(05:08):
that are expected to be under seawater in the next
fifty years UM. And that that you know, some of
the last known sites today are predicted to be under seawater.
And the last known viable population is considered to be
at St. Mark's National Wildlife Refuge, and which suffered a
(05:30):
direct hit from Hurricane Michael and inundated a good portion
of their breeding sites with seawater. So, you know, amphibians
are believed to be intolerant of seawater, so we had
to wait to see what the effects might be on
these salamanders. UM. So our partners U s g S
in the US Fish and Wildlife Service, we're monitoring these wetlands,
(05:54):
watching as the seawater subsided, and we're actually able to
find some salamanders, which is really surprising because flatwood salamanders
do not tolerate much change to their habitat um their
long leaf pine endemics, and they like it the way
it's historically been. But you know, they did not seem
(06:15):
to suffer. It'll be a while before we know for sure,
but it certainly did not kill all the flat with salamanders.
But living on St. Mark's for however long they've been there,
conceivably they've been inundated with seawater before, but it was
pretty scary for a while. So on one hand, they
might be more resilient than originally thought as far as
(06:37):
seawater is concerned. It's it's possible, it's and I say
that's surprising because we've been finding that they are not
tolerant towards other alterations to their habitat. So um, it's
I guess that is a part of their natural cycle,
and grateful that it didn't end up being as catastrophic
as we had feared. But of course that cyclical explore
(06:58):
exposure to salt water as opposed to to like permanent
environmental change due to rising sea levels. Correct Um, we're
still expecting that sometime, if we go on our current trajectory,
that St. Mark's will will not be suitable indefinitely. Uh,
And so we're looking towards more inland sites for restoration
(07:22):
and to repopulate with flat with salamanders. And how many
and how many animals do you have on site specimens
of the of this species. Yeah. So the frosted flat
with salamander that we're working with has been split in
two thousand and eight into two genetic clades, visually indistinguishable. UM.
(07:42):
But there's the Atlantic clade UM, which extended from South
Carolina down through Georgia and into northeastern Florida. UM. There's
one known wetland left with the Atlantic clay frosted flat
with salamanders. UM. Those are from Fort Stewart and Georgia
military base that I've personally been surveying since two thousand
(08:05):
and twelve. Uh, and it's blinking out. So in all
of these years, we had established a colony of three animals.
Okay UM. This year we detected forty larvae and that
was considered a huge success UM, and so we were
able to increase our captive population UM. And so obviously
(08:27):
when you're just trying to breed the animals, you know,
as many as you can have is great. UM. The
Gulf Coast clade, which includes Saint Mark's and Apological National Forest,
we have considerably more animals because of the efforts of
the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has been doing
extensive egg surveys and so frosted flat with salamander's breed
(08:50):
in ponds, but only when the ponds are dry, which
is really weird, right, So they come into a pond
and if it has water, it's it's not usable for
these salamanders. They breed in the dry ponds, they leave
in the eggs, sit there and wait for seasonal rains
to fill in and date the eggs. So in a
(09:11):
in a in a time where the climate is shifting
so dramatically, you know, these eggs are getting stranded. They're
just drying out in the in the meadows that they
were laid in, and so it's been vital for Florida
Fish and wildlife to collect these eggs, you know, and
when it looks like they're not going to get the
rain they need, the eggs have been collected and raised
(09:33):
on the grounds there and then just released after they've metamorphosed.
But a portion of them, forty four of them were
brought as egg to the Amphibian Foundation where we hatched
them out last year. So that was a significant boost
to our captive program. And I'm happy to say they're
they are doing well and seemed to be acclimating. Well,
(09:53):
so we just hope that they grow and then you know,
get in the mood for love and make some baby
salamanders for us. That's that's excellent. That is good to hear. Uh.
So you mentioned some of these some of these organizations
they did and UM and in groups that you're already
working with, you have any new partners you would like
to highlight, Yes, thank you. UM. This year, we we've
joined forces with the Memphis who yes, UM and great
(10:18):
passionate and very supportive group. And we applied and received
a grant to extend our our outdoor laboratory. So we
have twenty artificial wetlands set up for breeding endangered amphibians. Uh.
And through the Memphis who were extending that to thirty UM.
And so that greatly increases our chances. Now those those
(10:40):
extra ten will be focused on gopher frogs, which is
a very very rare frog here in the southeast. UM.
A few habitats remaining. UM. So we're excited to UM.
You know, have the suburbs of Atlanta echoing with the
snoring calls of gopher frogs in the evenings and wonder
what the neighbors are going to say about that. So
they have a they have a distinctive call. Yes it's
(11:03):
it's a little bit obscene, but it sounds it sounds
like a lot loud snore, especially when lots of males
are calling it once interesting And so they're hopefully going
to be Are there ever going to be some on
site in Memphis? Is that the planner? They just supporting
the efforts here in Atlanta. Um, they are, they are
supporting the efforts. But also, um, you know teams from
(11:26):
Memphis who has already come down to collect sperm from
our go for frogs to cryo banquets so that this
can be used and for future conservation efforts. So um,
it's just the beginning of a really great partnership with
that zoo. Cool. I was born in Memphis, Tennessee, so
I have a lot of memory early memories going to
that zoo and and then traveling back to that zoo
(11:48):
when I was a little older but still living in Tennessee.
So scream. And then on the research front, I understand
you have an exciting new bridge program. Yes I do,
or I would like to talk about it. Um. So
I am not a nonprofit administrator by trade, UM I'm
an amphibian biologist, but I have not had any time
(12:11):
in the last three years to really pursue that. Administrating
the foundation has been my primary focus, and I don't
see that changing anytime soon. UM. So we're meanwhile, we're
losing out on a lot of important contributions scientifically and
um in the conservation world for the species that we're
(12:33):
working with. So we've been able to develop starting this January,
an official research program with a director of Research UM
Dr Tobias Landberg will be heading it and UM what
we've decided to do with it is to build a
bridge program, which is it allows us to work a
(12:55):
very extremely mentored relationship with people that are interested in
coming and gaining a semester or to semester long experience
hands on working with very endangered species in conservation biology
and UM functional ecology and other really interesting aspects. So
not only will we be able to finally contribute with
(13:18):
the important efforts that were undertaking, but we'll be able
to train people and give a very important experience to
those who might not want to commit to a full
graduate study or even to college. So we'll be targeting
high school graduates and undergraduates who might want to spend
some time with us. It's very exciting. Oh yes. Now,
(13:41):
another thing I just have to ask a question about
is that I've been following online and I got to
see part of it in person when you're starting to
set it up. But you have a new uh tropical
frog rain chamber uh there at the foundation. Uh, And
I've just been really impressed just to hear about all
that's going into it and then to see uh images
(14:03):
of the finish set up. Can you tell everybody a
little bit about this. I mean, I've I've never kept
anything more than like a goldfish in a tank, and
so I was just astounded by the amount of work
that goes into one of these enclosures. Uh. Yeah, it's
a project that we're very proud of and it's um
you know, the Amphibian Foundation is not open to the
(14:24):
public generally, but we do have a classroom with lots
of events inside in this rain chamber is inside of
that classroom and it's eight ft tall and six ft
wide and and it's beautiful, you know. So this is
um a lot of planning and it took months to build,
but it's complete and it was sponsored the hardware, the tank,
(14:47):
the filters, the lights, and all of that was sponsored
by Zilla, and then a local company, sun Pet, donated
some verally beautiful driftwood pieces and really uh make it
very very beautiful. Uh. So the point is is that
every every weather climatic parent parameter can be controlled by us,
(15:09):
so we can really suit it for the needs of
any tropical species, even the montane high altitude species. We
can cool it down to the fifties in their raise
it up to the eighties, can rain as often as
we want, It can missed in there as often as
we want, and it can even get foggy. That's mostly
(15:30):
for us because it looks really cool. I don't think
the frogs care UM and that's important. We can also
it's it's somewhat of an interactive um way to draw
kids and and people into this thing, because you can
control the frog with the fog with a button, and
you can turn it from uh pond into a stream
(15:52):
with a button. Uh. Certain frogs like to breed over streams,
so we made sure to fingure that in UM. And
then there's a lot the diversity in the way frogs
like to breed and and like to deposit their eggs,
so some will breed in the water, which is a
typical frog thing to do. But then lots of frogs
lay their eggs on leaves over water, so we have
(16:13):
a great diversity of leaves. Um, hopefully anything a frog
could want to breed in there, and then you know, um,
the activities and the development of the eggs can all
be witnessed by people that are in the in the classroom.
And you know, we also have tree holes there and
there's a lot of very secretive frogs that like to
(16:35):
breed in tree holes. So hopefully we've got it all
covered now that the breeding projects will rotate in and out.
But we've carefully selected some very active diurnal frogs to
be in there permanently, so that no matter what's going on,
we'll have some some very active frogs in there. Um.
So we've selected, of course, the dead latest frog on
(16:58):
the planet who it is I want to see that,
the golden poison frog. And they're young, but they're just
starting to stake out their territories and they'll start singing
before too long, so that would be exciting. Now if
I understand correctly this, This tank also has thunder and
lightning effects, so we are working on that, but we
do not have the thunder and lightning hooked up yet.
(17:19):
But there are certain species that are cued in to
thunder and lightning as part of their you know, the
real heavy storms. So we can make it rain very
heavy in there and then hopefully soon we'll have thunder
and lightning because you know, we want to be able
to have any trigger we might possibly need that. You know.
That's fascinating to think about because when I when usually
(17:40):
when I think about animal responses to to lightning and thunder,
I just think of you know, our our various pet
dogs being terrified, um you know, basically just animals being cautious.
And I never really thought about the fact that, of course,
you know, the thunder and lightning would be tied in
to to downpours and then environments that have like a
(18:01):
monsoon season or just you know, heavy rains that that
would you know, potentially be a key signal to certain
species absolutely, you know, and and most dogs don't want
to be out in the downpour anyway, so it's it's, uh,
it's pretty funny. Yeah, So for any of our our
listeners in the Atlanta area, um or in anyone will
find themselves in the Atlanta area at some point if
(18:23):
they're interested in checking out the Amphibian Foundation headquarters. Oh
what do they need to know? What do they need
to do? Uh? Yeah, we we welcome visitors. And again
the facility itself, the building is not open to the public,
so that but we do have many events that you
can go to our website and see our events page.
But we are located on the City Park in our
(18:46):
outdoor facilities UM the Amphibian Research and Conservation Center UM.
We nicknamed that metamorphosis Meadow that is open uh city
Park hour so dauntal dusk and we just through a
through a grant from Georgia Department and Natural Resources. We
have some really beautiful signs out there so you can
(19:07):
walk out and see what we're doing. Otherwise it just
it looks kind of peculiar. There are these twenty cattle
tanks basically that have been fitted with endangered amphibians. But
now they have some very beautiful signs explaining what's happening
there and what we're trying to accomplish. Excellent. All right,
looks like it's time for a break, but we will
be right back with more of the interview and we're back.
(19:32):
So one of the other reasons I wanted to bring
back on the show is to to follow up on
a conversation I had with you UH at the Foundation
headquarters of several months back, and that's on the topic
of unfairly vilified reptiles, UH, because you know, we we
we were hardwired to have certain reactions to snakes. UM,
(19:56):
and and snakes, I think are the obvious starting point here,
and we have we have listeners all over the world.
We have listeners in Ireland who you know, generally don't
have to deal with snakes unless they want to. And
we hear from listeners in in Australia who have have
quite a few snakes to to convene themselves with. But
here and say that the Southeastern United States? What what
(20:18):
what our what's our actual risk level with encountering a
snake that could actually harm us, that actually is venomous. Well, Um,
thank you for bringing up this topic. It's very personal
to me and I have been focused on amphibians my
whole life and have always made UM it important to
(20:39):
to talk about the truth about some of these reptiles
that people just really seem to hate or like to
love to hate them, you know. And so I like
to give some facts whenever I'm asked, and for here, um,
you know, in the Southeast, when I was moving to Atlanta,
I was warned that there were going to be a
lot of copper heads um, and so I came in
(21:02):
hoping to be able to see some copper heads um.
And that is a regularly encountered species here in metche Atlanta,
you know. So um, what we've tried to do is
just focus on educating people about the truths about copper
heads and uh. And the probably the most important thing
is just how to properly identify one. So we do
(21:26):
lots of workshops. We have copper heads as part of
all of our children's programming really and you know, to
address the hardwired thing. I think to some degree you're right,
But in our experience, and we do a lot of
engagement with kids, and they're not nearly as terrified as
the adults are, you know. I So I think at
(21:47):
least to some degree that is being taught. They're queuing
in on how the adults in their lives are reacting
to snakes. Absolutely. So for some of our camps, we
have and of course in a tectic container. But we
have a live copper head and that's on Snake Day,
which is Friday. And that's also the day when the
parents are invited to come for the last hour and
(22:11):
and be taught by their kids what they had learned
that week. And the kids want to show off the
copper head, but the parents just don't even want to
see it, you know, So I think that's very telling. UM.
Can you can you briefly describe the copper head to
our listeners and be happy to um. So there are
(22:32):
some species that can be confused unless you actually see
a live copper head, and then I don't think there's
any mistaking them because they have a copper head. Now
that's well named for that reason. UM. And then when
we give UM talks to the public, we usually hand
out Hershey's kisses because they have hershe could kiss patterns
(22:54):
on their backs and it's the only snake that has that,
so UM and we hope that those treats will help
drive that home and UM, and you know, they do
have a lot of their beautiful snakes. They have a
lot of coppery color on them, so they're well named
and they also that is meant to blend in with leaves.
(23:15):
You know, if they're lying on a bed of leaves,
they're practically invisible, you know. And so um, one of
my committee members for graduate school has done a very
um I've done a study, very compelling study on you know,
if if a foot falls near a venomous snake, there's
very little chance that they're going to strike you. You know.
(23:35):
So um that he did this experiment with cutouts of
feet and hands, and hands would have listened much more
of a response than feet. So that is part of
our program as well as we're trying to encourage people
not to grab or try to kill these things. You know.
So we have a copperhead rescue and advocacy program here
(23:57):
in Atlanta where we took it upon our off so
we um, we go out, people can call us. If
they can verify that it is a copper head, we
will come and relocate it. So we don't want people
to get bit and we don't want um copper heads
to get killed. And you know, so I've been collecting
(24:17):
data on these calls and only six percent of them
are actually copper heads. A lot of times they're killed
the snakes they're just just doing their snake thing, and
people think they're copper heads and killing them. So we're
trying to offer an alternative to that. So the number
(24:38):
of of the the details that you bring up here
are are interesting for starters. The whole. The fact that
the snake reacts more to a hand than to a foot,
I mean, that makes perfect sense because it's it's it
doesn't have a limitless supply of venom, and to use
its venom is is itself a risky move And so
it's you know which which in which case is it
(25:00):
actually more threatened. It's going to be more threatened by
the hand that is reaching into its abode, perhaps to
grab it. And then on the you know, on the
subject of it just killing snakes. Having grown up or
part of my growing up in like in a rural environment,
I certainly remember it being a thing that if if
if a suspected venomous snake was encountered, it was like
(25:21):
an adult's job to kill it um and to go
after it and you know, chop it up. The idea,
I guess being that it would it would just actively
hunt us down or something, you know. But but these
animals have a have a role in the local environment,
even the local environment surrounding our houses, right, and attacking
(25:42):
humans is not their role. Um, So I've I've never
had that happen. I've encountered lots of venomous snakes in
my field work and um, including in the everglades, which
is not too shabby place to find venomous snakes. And UM,
they've never had one attack. I have them either retreat
(26:05):
or UM show me very politely that they are not
really digging this interaction and UM, but you know, they
do have a vital role, you know. And snakes are
extremely important for a variety of reasons. Broadly, all snakes,
you know, most of them are feeding on rodents, you know,
(26:27):
so that's their primary food source, at least for most
of the snakes that will encounter. And you know that
it's been shown that a decrease in snake populations is
an increase in the rodent populations. And in the rodent
unlike the snakes, the rodents do want to get into
our house, and I do want to, you know, actively
(26:49):
leach off of of our provisions exactly. And rodents can
carry disease that would affect humans. And and that is
also have shown to be the case is an increase
in tickborn disease, for example, Um, when there's an increase
in rodents. So, uh, snakes are our friends, you know.
And I try to really drive home that they just
(27:12):
want to be left alone. You know, they really don't
want to attack. Uh. Most of the time, the vast
majority of the time, they'll they'll show some sign that
you can out as a warning, you know, Like the
most conspicuous is a rattle snake. In that rattle is
just to show you that it really does not want
to bite you, you know. So and uh and the
(27:34):
copperheads do not have a rattle, but they will often
rattle their tail regardless. And that's uh if if the
tail is in leaves, for example, it can sound a
lot like a rattle, but it will shake it very
very rapidly, you know. So copperhends definitely do not want
to bite now. And in terms of the snakes that
(27:55):
live immediately around us, uh. For for for anyone who's not
familiar with the Atlanta, Atlanta sometimes we're called a a
city in a forest. Uh. You know, we have a
fair amount of of vegetation and uh, and my my
home in particular, is surrounded by a number of big trees.
It's not that huge of a yard or anything. But
we never really see snakes. But occasionally we'll find a
(28:17):
snake skin or you know, or occasionally, um, there have
been a time or two glimps like a small snake,
and then it's gone and we never see it again.
Are there are there snakes living around us like that?
We're just were They're just secretive and we're not going
to be privy to their their presence. Yeah, that's a
great question, because you know, you have to really want
(28:39):
to find snakes to get out there and find them,
and then it's still very difficult. So if you just
see a snake, you know, you're you're pretty fortunate here
in Atlanta, are really any metropolitan area if you still
have snakes around, then you know, that's some indication that
there's at least some some habitats still have before them.
(29:01):
So those are the glimpses that we get. The ship
skin is a good one because that'll stay there for
quite a while and then give you some evidence. Now,
another reptile that I wanted to talk about here is
another one that I distinctly remember being vilified when I
was younger, and that's the snapping turtle. Um. Like, one
(29:21):
of the examples I think I'm mentioning this to you
already is that I remember it being I remember being
told that if a snapping turtle was in your fish pond,
that you had to kill the snapping turtle because it
was going to inevitably eat all your fish or something
along those mines. So I remember, like fairly at the time,
(29:41):
as a as a kid like kind of horrific scenes
of a snapping turtle being fished out of a pond
by I think it was a scout leader at the time,
and then like hacked to death and just left dead
by the side of the pond, all because there was
this you know, loose idea that it was going to
you know, harm the fishing bond. Uh and and it
(30:02):
seems like they're like various you know, other examples of
that I remember being mentioned where it just it sounds
like people unfairly considered the snapping turtle to be a
nuisance or a menace and then also felt like they
had increased license to mess with it. You really hit
the nail on the head with that, um because I
(30:23):
think in some areas the snapping turtles more hated than
the copper head, you know. And but yes, I have
been very involved in in snapping turtle advocacy, I guess,
um since since I started studying biology. Um. And I
think one of the inspirations was that someone had brought
(30:44):
me this was in Massachusetts, but someone had bought brought
me a a snapping turtle that had been shot and beaten,
but it wasn't dead, um. And I was able to
nurse this thing back to health. And the bullet, as
far as I know, is still in this animal. Um,
but it was paralyzed on the right side. Um. And
(31:05):
he didn't snap anymore, you know, so he was he
lost his snap and uh, I would take him for outreach,
you know, and I would um talked to people about
snapping snapper truths about the snapping turtle. You know, there's
no for example, there's no attack snapping turtle. You know,
they don't see you and then sneak up and attack you.
(31:27):
That has never happened. They they leave, you know, they
see you and they're they're out of there. And and
we can also show people how to approach a snapping
turtles safely, you know, so that you know, um, this
this turtle I'm mentioning, his name was Vito, and Vito
wasn't about twenty five pounds, so kind of average. Wait
(31:49):
for a huge snapper you might see out on the road.
And you know, anybody can can safely move one of
these things, because occasionally that happens as well. It's like
someone's trying to help the turtle and and it's snapping.
Turtles also don't know how to show appreciation there being
so but it's it's it's all about being safe and
(32:09):
respecting the animal and and um and acknowledging the truths
around these because obviously people are fascinated by them, but
then there are those that do really enjoy putting a
hate on them or killing them or whatever. So I mean,
obviously I can see where the fascination comes from, because
they are fascinating creatures. You know, they have this this
(32:32):
kind of you know, ferocious nature, seemingly ferocious nature up close.
You know they're like little tanks. But but where does
this where do you think this this other side of
it comes from, Like this idea that a that a
snapping turtle would be, you know, an enemy of the
wild because you know, like you said they're not they're
not seeking us out right, Yeah, they're not. Um. I
(32:54):
think part of it is that for certain parts of
the year, the female travel to lay their eggs, and
so they're not in the water, and I think that's
when a lot of the interactions happen. So most of
the time, when you see a snapping turtle out of
the water, that's a female either going to lay her
eggs or returning from laying her and she just wants
(33:16):
to get back to her muck, you know. But that's
when a lot of the interactions happen. And so you know,
I've been told so many stories about people putting broomsticks
in their faces and stuff. And I don't know how
I would react if someone stuck a broomstick phase, but
it would would not be positive. But you know, make
no mistakes, snapping turtles bite and they bite hard. I
(33:38):
would not want to get bitten by a snapping turtle.
But you know, one of the myths is that they
will bite your hand off or your finger. It's been
proven that they lack the jaw strength to do anything
like that, removing a digit. I'm not saying it won't
be pleasant, but you know, if you if someone's talking
(34:00):
about that or biting up roomstick in half, then they're
talking about a different species, the alligator snapper, which is
very rare and very secretive, and I don't think most
people interact with those. It's the common snapper. Then his uh,
it lives in infamy and his pretty persecuted. Here yeah yeah,
(34:22):
and like another myth I remember hearing as a kid
was that, uh, this just grotesque to to think about.
But the idea that if you were to put your
palm out to the snapping turtle, it would not be
able to and you kept your palm flat, the snapping
turtle would not be able to bite your palm, which
sounds like a terrible idea. This sounds just like a
(34:42):
story that originated with the you know, drunken idiots messing
um with a turtle um. And then one that I
didn't didn't know about until until recently, I think feel
one of your your outreach episodes was this myth involving
snapping turtles and thunder and lightning. Can you tell us
about that? Well? Yes, so, um, I haven't heard those
(35:04):
until relatively recently. But I would never put my palm
up to a snapping turtle. Well, um and then yeah,
I'm not sure where the thunder and lightning came in,
but I can't imagine that is based on any actual evidence.
But without knowing more, I wouldn't want to say too much.
But um, they seem to be out and about regardless
(35:29):
of the weather, so I don't think there's anything to it,
but I could be wrong. Yeah, I think the version
I heard was that if a snapping turtle were to
bite you while it thundered, it wouldn't let go until
it thundered. I've done something that sounds completely ridiculous, and
I know has snapping turtles bite is very quick but
very powerful, so I don't think. Yeah, I've never had
(35:53):
them by anything and hold on for very long this
um uh and and it's really one of their last
lines of defense. So snapping turtle on land is an
awkward beast. You know, they're not comfortable, so like they
literally they're not messing around. They're just trying to get
to where they're going and it's going to be water.
(36:15):
Uh and so they're they're also very vulnerable. So snapping turtles,
I don't know if you've ever seen the underside of
one but there's it's all flesh. It looks kind of
like they're wearing a bikini that's too small. It doesn't
have as much plate as Yeah, so there's lots there
are a lot of vulnerability abilities there. And um, so
they will a lot of times they'll back up to
(36:36):
you if they see you. They'll point the back of
their shell at you because that's where the serrations are
and it's pointing so that I can see how that
would be effective for a predator, you know. Um and
if that doesn't work and you're near the business end,
if it snapping turtle, it'll bite and they have a
very long long neck. Now, aside from just the the
you know, the obvious fact that we should not be
(36:59):
cruel to snapping turtles and and actively provoke snapping turtles,
what what is their their role in in a local environment? Like,
what what is the what is the how do they
benefit the local environment? Um? Yeah, great, snapping turtles are
not the incredible hunters that most people think they are.
You know. So they do a lot of they'll eat carrying,
(37:23):
you know, things that have died, things that are obviously
easier to catch if they're already dead. Um. Surprisingly, vegetation
is a big part of a snapping turtles tyed too,
So part of what they do is is eat those
types of things, but also dredge up. They stir up
the bottoms of a lot of these wetlonds, which is
important to keep the wellands healthy. I would if I
(37:46):
had upon in my property, I would encourage the snapping
turtles because they are keeping um some of the weaker, slower,
dying or dead animals eaten and also, um know, stirring up,
keeping the bottom the basin of these well and is
healthy as well. Now you mentioned earlier you know there's
(38:06):
a safe way to approach them. Uh what what? What
are the like? When? When is it? Is it ever
a good idea to approach snapper turtle just in cases
where it's on the road or well, yeah, on the
road is a big one. Um So if people were
interested in doing that, UM, first make sure you're safe,
(38:27):
don't step into traffic or anything like that. Um. But
you you certainly want to put the snapper in the
direction it was heading. And the reason for that is
that if you put it in the opposite direction, it's
going to turn around across the road again. Because they're
like I said before, they're they're never just wandering. They
know where they're going and where they need to go. UM.
(38:47):
And then there's two ways that people pick up snapping turtles.
My way is to have to approach it from behind.
It's very important, um and even the largest, fastest, most
aggressive snapping turtles aren't as fast as as not even close.
So you can get behind the snapping turtle and I
(39:07):
put my hand underneath its tail, on the plaster on
the belly shell and lift while simultaneously holding the base
of the tail. You can't grab a snapping turtle from
the tail exclusively without risking permanent injury to the vertebrae.
That's the tail is the vertebrae, so the majority of
(39:28):
the weight is going to be um For me. I
use my non dominant hand underneath the turtle and just
hoist that sucker. And I've been able to lift um,
you know, pretty good size over forty pounds snapping turtles.
That way, you don't necessarily have to lift them up
very high, just enough to scoot them off. And just remember,
they're never gonna thank you for that service. All right,
(39:52):
it looks like it's time for a break to hear
from our sponsor. But we will be right back with
more of this interview, and we return now when we're
talking about stamming turtles and also the venomous snakes. To
what degree are they are these various species protected by
(40:13):
by state and federal laws. UM. Federal laws. I don't
know if any legislation UM. In Massachusetts, at least when
I lived there it was a while ago, but the
snapping turtle enjoyed no protections. UM. That may have changed
since the nineties. In Georgia, It's really interesting because venomous
(40:35):
snakes have no protections on them, um, but all of
the native non venomous snakes do so. UM. Technically, people
that are killing non venomous snakes thinking their copperheads are
breaking state law. UM. And then and then the venomous
snakes have no, um, no protection at all. Eastern diamond
(40:59):
banks are are not doing well, so there's a good
chance that they could be protected in the future. And
I guess it goes without saying that if anyone that's
really interested in, say, having a turtle or a snake
as a pet, should not just go about capturing them
from the wild. That's horrible and uh, I'll tell you why. Um,
(41:21):
there's really two reasons. One one, as you probably will
depending on the state, be breaking some type of law. Um.
And to these animals rarely adapt well to captivity. So
it's best if you wanted a snake or a turtle
as a pet, and I would advocate for that if
done responsibly, because that is a gateway. It was a
(41:41):
gateway for me. It's a gateway for many people to
get involved in conservation because they're fascinating animals. Um. But
you can search out captive bread animals that these are
breeders who are committed to more sustainable practices and are
producing animals in captivity. So you're not removing animals from
(42:04):
the wild. That's important. But also these animals just do
better as pets, you know, than than pulling something out
of the wild that could have some more wild tendencies.
But also, um, you know don't typically acclimate well to captivity.
All right, well let's let's come back to some some
of the myths again. Um. Firstly, it was snapping turtles. Um,
(42:27):
you mentioned already that uh that you know, there's some
sizeable specimens out there, you know, they was mentioned like
forty pounds snapping turtles. Um, but how how how big
are the snapping turtles were generally going to encounter in
the wild? And then how how wild are the tall
tall tales concerning their size. I've heard some good tall tales.
I think that's human nature, you know. Um, but um,
(42:51):
the world's record for a snapping turtle, which was recently broken,
so before it was seventy five pounds, and that's just
an enormous snapping turtle. That animal had an eighteen inch shell,
so a foot and a half. That's not as big
as the Volkswagen Beetle like some people claim, or a
large car tire. Would that be like an alligator snapping turtle?
That's a common snap Alligator snapping turtles get much much larger,
(43:16):
so infrequently encountered by anyone, let alone the general public.
That you know, most of these myths are around the
common snapper. Um. Then now the world's record is now
nineteen and a half inches, and that was an eighty
six pound animal. That's massive. The majority of the animals
that we find, at least here in Atlanta, which are
(43:37):
really large, are in the twenty low thirty pounds. So
and and what kind of what does the research tell
us about their their actual bite strength. Yes, So I
was very fortunate. When I was an undergraduate, there was
a visiting scholar coming, Anthony Harrell, and he studies bite
force and he needed someone to go out and trap
(43:57):
him some wild turtles to study, and I was very
happy to have that responsibility. So I had trapped some
snappers for him, and he came and measured the bite
force of these snappers. So when I mentioned and that
was a I think a forty eight pound snapper was
the biggest. So that's a big, big turtle um And
(44:17):
it had a fifty fifteen inch shell and so it
was not it lacked the draw strength of the jaw
strength to do any significant damage to human um. But
there are some other turtles that that he studied here
and the at the collection in New mass that were
good bite with a lot of strength, so enough to
(44:38):
even destroy his bite ometer, the device he used to
measure the turtles bite force. But the snapping turtles were
not even close. Wow. Now, in terms of the venom
of the copper head, to come back to that, how
how venomous is the copper head and how does it
does it stack up with other their venoms and naturally
(45:01):
occurring poisons, yes, thank you. UM. Copper head bites um
are not pleasant. I mean, I've never been been by
a copperhead, but I would not want to so. But
there's been one confirmed human death from a copper head bite,
so that's very unlikely, you know. So UM, I would
never suggest someone just walk it off. I would immediately
(45:23):
seek medical attention. But a lot of times there's no
need to to um and administer anti vannin or anything
like that with a copper head bite. Uh. Their their
venom is considered very mild compared to other snakes and UM.
Copperheads also lack um a rattle or a cotton mouth
to demonstrate that they're unhappy. So uh, they're more likely
(45:47):
to dry bite on the first that that would be.
That could maybe even be considered a warning for them,
a little bit like, hey, this is gonna go downhill
fast for you if you keep doing what you're doing. Um,
so I guess. I mean, like I said, I wouldn't
want to be bit by any of them, but if
I had to choose, if I had to take a bite,
it would certainly be the copperhead. Now, are there are
(46:07):
there uses for copper head venom, yes and and um.
When we're advocating for these animals, we like to point
out that the copper heads, specifically their venom has been
used to attack cancer cells, you know, and specifically breast cancer.
It can stop that from spreading. So um, and many
venoms from snakes have been used for our investigated and
(46:31):
used for their pharmaceutical properties to benefit humans. So you know,
the venoms of snakes are also fascinating. But there are
hemotoxic venoms like like the copper head, and like our vipers,
rattlesnake and cotton mouth which um can be used to
treat blood disorders you know, um, other snakes that are
(46:52):
neurotoxic and some examples, some famous examples of that are
the cobra, but here we have a coral snake. You know,
those venoms and be used to treat neurological disorders, even
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, you know. So there's a treasure trophe
in there and then in the snake venoms of things,
uh that we can utilize from from these animals. Well yeah,
(47:14):
I mean it makes sense. It's a it's a highly
evolved bioweapon and and I mean, the same can be
said for a lot of a lot of substances in
the world that we use medicinally, be at a you know,
a spice or you know, or something else. So yeah,
that that makes sense, and that would be another reason
not to just indistrib discriminately kill uh venomous snakes in
(47:36):
our vicinity. And then of course coming back to just
the the perceived danger than the lack of danger, right exactly.
So we try to arm people with the facts, you know,
and no matter what we do or what anyone does,
snakes are going to elicit fear, you know, and that's
they're really good at that. But they're also fascinating. So
(47:57):
when we when we address people with proper information, and
like I said, just being able to identify a copper
head and and learning a little bit about their role
can help, because there are lots of things that are
more deadly than copper heads, you know, like I said,
one per I think it was back going all the
way back to the sixties, only one confirmed death from
(48:20):
a copperhead by but there are lots of other things
that kill people every year, and huge numbers that don't
elicit the same fear as a copper head. So it's
pretty fascinating. So I had, oh during the Atlanta Science Festival.
For the last two years we've done what I like
to call the Biology of the Despised series. So we
(48:41):
started with copper heads and we did snapping turtles last year.
I think this coming year maybe we'll just do snakes
in general. But um, I had some interns from Emery,
Erica Fisher and Natalie Bauer put together a beautiful presentation,
and they put forth some things that are more deadly
than copper heads snakes, and uh, I thought I'd share
(49:03):
a couple of them with them here, because you know,
shopping on Black Friday, for example, five and fifty deaths
a year. Really well, dogs thirty deaths a year, vending
machines thirteen deaths a year. Just texting, you know, uh,
six thousand deaths a year, and we should be much
more afraid of texting than we should have snakes in uh.
(49:26):
You know, hot tap water accounts for forty five deaths
a year. These are all things that, at least by
the numbers, deserve a lot more fear than our than
our poor copper heads. So wow, So the next time
we uh, we feel ourselves giving into UH to fear
of of a copper head or here's someone else of reacting.
We just need to remind them hot tap water and
(49:47):
vending machines away are wealthy. Absolutely all right, Mark, Well,
thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us again,
sore chatting about about amphibians and snappers and UH and
copper heads. Next UH tell us if if anybody out
there wants to to learn more about the Amphibian Foundation,
where can they go? Yeah, our website, the Amphibian Foundation
(50:09):
dot org that has lots of ways that you can
get involved these You do not have to be in
Atlanta to get involved in amphibian conservation. So we outline
lots of things people can do uh, and then we're
on all the social media's UH at Amphibian found excellent.
All right, Well, thanks for chatting with us, my pleasure.
(50:30):
Thank you. All right, So there you have it. Thanks
again to Mark Mandinka for coming in again. If you
want to check out the Amphibian Foundation, you can read
all about them at Amphibian Foundation dot org. Big thanks
as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.
If you would like to get in touch with us
with feedback about this episode or any other, to suggest
(50:52):
a topic for the future, or just to say hello.
You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow
your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is
a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
(51:13):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production
of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome
to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert
Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and I was just out
of town. While I was out, Robert, you chatted with
(00:20):
some old guests of the show. You you brought back
our friend Mark Mandeka. Right, that's right, Mark Mandinka, executive
director of the Amphibian Foundation here in Atlanta. He spoke
with us pretty much just a year ago, like almost
exactly a year ago about you know, the challenges of
amphibian conservation, about what the Amphibian Foundation does, and also
highlighted some really gnarly species of amphibian and discussed their
(00:45):
their interesting ways of reproducing. Uh. So that was a
fun chat. And so since it had been a year
and since Mark is a you know, a local guest,
UH called him in and uh he joined me for
a chat about again amphibian concert vation, what the Amphibian
Foundation has been up to. That's going to be in
the first half of the interview, uh and uh. And
(01:06):
then in the second half the interview, Well, we're going
to talk about some often vilified reptiles, namely in in
our neck of the woods here the copper head snake
and the snapping turtle. Like why we know to what
extent can we even answer the question why are these
creatures persecuted? But then also what roles do they play
(01:27):
in our environment and why we should value those roles? Awesome? Well,
I cannot wait to hear this conversation. So should we
jump right into the interview with Mark Mandica. Let's jump
right into the Amphibian Pod. All right, Mark, welcome back
to the show. And uh, for for anyone who maybe
a little foggy on on your last appearance or didn't
(01:49):
listen to that episode, Uh yet, can you go ahead
and introduce yourself to everyone? Absolutely, and thanks for having
me Mark Mandica, co founder and executive director of the
Amphibian Fundation. So yeah, you joined us on the show
about a year ago and outlined the mission of the
Amphibian Foundation and and uh and you know what what
whin It's work and the work of other amphibian conservation
(02:11):
groups are so important. A year later, have there been
any like really you know, great success stories, any new challenges?
You know, well, what what what is it like? A
year later in the realm of amphibian conservation. Well, thanks,
that's a great question, and a lot has happened in
the last year. I'm happy to say, Uh, the Amphibian
(02:32):
Foundation has grown a lot. We've recruited lots of passionate
staff and interns and volunteers. I think we're up over
eighty now, so that's exciting. UM. We have been expanding
our conservation programs as well. Now. I believe I mentioned
last time that the majority of our captive propagation animals
(02:53):
were hatched recently. So unfortunately I can't relay any success
with our captive breeding program AMPS because the animals are
still very very young. UM. But in the light of that,
we've we've expanded our facilities so we have UM lots
of capacity for rearing endangered amphibians and are very hopeful
(03:14):
we'll have some captive breathing success very soon. And in
the last episode that that we are connected with you, you
you talked to you know about the the challenges that
are faced by so many of these species facing endangerment
and extinction and how susceptible they are to to pollution
and environmental dangers, a large part because of the fact
(03:36):
that they breathe through their skin. Yes, Um, they are
a beacon for us. You know, Um, you'll never see
an amphibian drink, for example, they just absorb it all
right through their skin. So anything that we've done to
the environment or put in the environment is absorbed into
the amphibians and they are responding. You know, they have
(03:57):
um well documented UH bonds is to agricultural chemicals. For example,
where animals can can develop extra limbs or no limbs.
These aren't injuries, they're just not developing their limbs properly.
So that's pretty terrifying. And it's also very well documented
that certain agricultural chemicals will effeminize male amphibians, so that
(04:20):
large populations are are biased towards female or or I
think even entirely female, depending on the dosage. And of course,
another big challenge in our environment is climate change and
uh the various effects of climate change, including extreme weather,
and I understand you have an angle on this to
discuss with us here today. Absolutely so our primary focus,
(04:45):
or our first focus has been on the flatwood salamander
and they're a coastal plaine species and so as we
are developing tools to produce animals for release into the wild.
Our partners are working on storing habitat and basically, uh,
you know, following the models and not really considering areas
(05:08):
that are expected to be under seawater in the next
fifty years UM. And that that you know, some of
the last known sites today are predicted to be under seawater.
And the last known viable population is considered to be
at St. Mark's National Wildlife Refuge, and which suffered a
(05:30):
direct hit from Hurricane Michael and inundated a good portion
of their breeding sites with seawater. So, you know, amphibians
are believed to be intolerant of seawater, so we had
to wait to see what the effects might be on
these salamanders. UM. So our partners U s g S
in the US Fish and Wildlife Service, we're monitoring these wetlands,
(05:54):
watching as the seawater subsided, and we're actually able to
find some salamanders, which is really surprising because flatwood salamanders
do not tolerate much change to their habitat um their
long leaf pine endemics, and they like it the way
it's historically been. But you know, they did not seem
(06:15):
to suffer. It'll be a while before we know for sure,
but it certainly did not kill all the flat with salamanders.
But living on St. Mark's for however long they've been there,
conceivably they've been inundated with seawater before, but it was
pretty scary for a while. So on one hand, they
might be more resilient than originally thought as far as
(06:37):
seawater is concerned. It's it's possible, it's and I say
that's surprising because we've been finding that they are not
tolerant towards other alterations to their habitat. So um, it's
I guess that is a part of their natural cycle,
and grateful that it didn't end up being as catastrophic
as we had feared. But of course that cyclical explore
(06:58):
exposure to salt water as opposed to to like permanent
environmental change due to rising sea levels. Correct Um, we're
still expecting that sometime, if we go on our current trajectory,
that St. Mark's will will not be suitable indefinitely. Uh,
And so we're looking towards more inland sites for restoration
(07:22):
and to repopulate with flat with salamanders. And how many
and how many animals do you have on site specimens
of the of this species. Yeah. So the frosted flat
with salamander that we're working with has been split in
two thousand and eight into two genetic clades, visually indistinguishable. UM.
(07:42):
But there's the Atlantic clade UM, which extended from South
Carolina down through Georgia and into northeastern Florida. UM. There's
one known wetland left with the Atlantic clay frosted flat
with salamanders. UM. Those are from Fort Stewart and Georgia
military base that I've personally been surveying since two thousand
(08:05):
and twelve. Uh, and it's blinking out. So in all
of these years, we had established a colony of three animals.
Okay UM. This year we detected forty larvae and that
was considered a huge success UM, and so we were
able to increase our captive population UM. And so obviously
(08:27):
when you're just trying to breed the animals, you know,
as many as you can have is great. UM. The
Gulf Coast clade, which includes Saint Mark's and Apological National Forest,
we have considerably more animals because of the efforts of
the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has been doing
extensive egg surveys and so frosted flat with salamander's breed
(08:50):
in ponds, but only when the ponds are dry, which
is really weird, right, So they come into a pond
and if it has water, it's it's not usable for
these salamanders. They breed in the dry ponds, they leave
in the eggs, sit there and wait for seasonal rains
to fill in and date the eggs. So in a
(09:11):
in a in a time where the climate is shifting
so dramatically, you know, these eggs are getting stranded. They're
just drying out in the in the meadows that they
were laid in, and so it's been vital for Florida
Fish and wildlife to collect these eggs, you know, and
when it looks like they're not going to get the
rain they need, the eggs have been collected and raised
(09:33):
on the grounds there and then just released after they've metamorphosed.
But a portion of them, forty four of them were
brought as egg to the Amphibian Foundation where we hatched
them out last year. So that was a significant boost
to our captive program. And I'm happy to say they're
they are doing well and seemed to be acclimating. Well,
(09:53):
so we just hope that they grow and then you know,
get in the mood for love and make some baby
salamanders for us. That's that's excellent. That is good to hear. Uh.
So you mentioned some of these some of these organizations
they did and UM and in groups that you're already
working with, you have any new partners you would like
to highlight, Yes, thank you. UM. This year, we we've
joined forces with the Memphis who yes, UM and great
(10:18):
passionate and very supportive group. And we applied and received
a grant to extend our our outdoor laboratory. So we
have twenty artificial wetlands set up for breeding endangered amphibians. Uh.
And through the Memphis who were extending that to thirty UM.
And so that greatly increases our chances. Now those those
(10:40):
extra ten will be focused on gopher frogs, which is
a very very rare frog here in the southeast. UM.
A few habitats remaining. UM. So we're excited to UM.
You know, have the suburbs of Atlanta echoing with the
snoring calls of gopher frogs in the evenings and wonder
what the neighbors are going to say about that. So
they have a they have a distinctive call. Yes it's
(11:03):
it's a little bit obscene, but it sounds it sounds
like a lot loud snore, especially when lots of males
are calling it once interesting And so they're hopefully going
to be Are there ever going to be some on
site in Memphis? Is that the planner? They just supporting
the efforts here in Atlanta. Um, they are, they are
supporting the efforts. But also, um, you know teams from
(11:26):
Memphis who has already come down to collect sperm from
our go for frogs to cryo banquets so that this
can be used and for future conservation efforts. So um,
it's just the beginning of a really great partnership with
that zoo. Cool. I was born in Memphis, Tennessee, so
I have a lot of memory early memories going to
that zoo and and then traveling back to that zoo
(11:48):
when I was a little older but still living in Tennessee.
So scream. And then on the research front, I understand
you have an exciting new bridge program. Yes I do,
or I would like to talk about it. Um. So
I am not a nonprofit administrator by trade, UM I'm
an amphibian biologist, but I have not had any time
(12:11):
in the last three years to really pursue that. Administrating
the foundation has been my primary focus, and I don't
see that changing anytime soon. UM. So we're meanwhile, we're
losing out on a lot of important contributions scientifically and
um in the conservation world for the species that we're
(12:33):
working with. So we've been able to develop starting this January,
an official research program with a director of Research UM
Dr Tobias Landberg will be heading it and UM what
we've decided to do with it is to build a
bridge program, which is it allows us to work a
(12:55):
very extremely mentored relationship with people that are interested in
coming and gaining a semester or to semester long experience
hands on working with very endangered species in conservation biology
and UM functional ecology and other really interesting aspects. So
not only will we be able to finally contribute with
(13:18):
the important efforts that were undertaking, but we'll be able
to train people and give a very important experience to
those who might not want to commit to a full
graduate study or even to college. So we'll be targeting
high school graduates and undergraduates who might want to spend
some time with us. It's very exciting. Oh yes. Now,
(13:41):
another thing I just have to ask a question about
is that I've been following online and I got to
see part of it in person when you're starting to
set it up. But you have a new uh tropical
frog rain chamber uh there at the foundation. Uh, And
I've just been really impressed just to hear about all
that's going into it and then to see uh images
(14:03):
of the finish set up. Can you tell everybody a
little bit about this. I mean, I've I've never kept
anything more than like a goldfish in a tank, and
so I was just astounded by the amount of work
that goes into one of these enclosures. Uh. Yeah, it's
a project that we're very proud of and it's um
you know, the Amphibian Foundation is not open to the
(14:24):
public generally, but we do have a classroom with lots
of events inside in this rain chamber is inside of
that classroom and it's eight ft tall and six ft
wide and and it's beautiful, you know. So this is
um a lot of planning and it took months to build,
but it's complete and it was sponsored the hardware, the tank,
(14:47):
the filters, the lights, and all of that was sponsored
by Zilla, and then a local company, sun Pet, donated
some verally beautiful driftwood pieces and really uh make it
very very beautiful. Uh. So the point is is that
every every weather climatic parent parameter can be controlled by us,
(15:09):
so we can really suit it for the needs of
any tropical species, even the montane high altitude species. We
can cool it down to the fifties in their raise
it up to the eighties, can rain as often as
we want, It can missed in there as often as
we want, and it can even get foggy. That's mostly
(15:30):
for us because it looks really cool. I don't think
the frogs care UM and that's important. We can also
it's it's somewhat of an interactive um way to draw
kids and and people into this thing, because you can
control the frog with the fog with a button, and
you can turn it from uh pond into a stream
(15:52):
with a button. Uh. Certain frogs like to breed over streams,
so we made sure to fingure that in UM. And
then there's a lot the diversity in the way frogs
like to breed and and like to deposit their eggs,
so some will breed in the water, which is a
typical frog thing to do. But then lots of frogs
lay their eggs on leaves over water, so we have
(16:13):
a great diversity of leaves. Um, hopefully anything a frog
could want to breed in there, and then you know, um,
the activities and the development of the eggs can all
be witnessed by people that are in the in the classroom.
And you know, we also have tree holes there and
there's a lot of very secretive frogs that like to
(16:35):
breed in tree holes. So hopefully we've got it all
covered now that the breeding projects will rotate in and out.
But we've carefully selected some very active diurnal frogs to
be in there permanently, so that no matter what's going on,
we'll have some some very active frogs in there. Um.
So we've selected, of course, the dead latest frog on
(16:58):
the planet who it is I want to see that,
the golden poison frog. And they're young, but they're just
starting to stake out their territories and they'll start singing
before too long, so that would be exciting. Now if
I understand correctly this, This tank also has thunder and
lightning effects, so we are working on that, but we
do not have the thunder and lightning hooked up yet.
(17:19):
But there are certain species that are cued in to
thunder and lightning as part of their you know, the
real heavy storms. So we can make it rain very
heavy in there and then hopefully soon we'll have thunder
and lightning because you know, we want to be able
to have any trigger we might possibly need that. You know.
That's fascinating to think about because when I when usually
(17:40):
when I think about animal responses to to lightning and thunder,
I just think of you know, our our various pet
dogs being terrified, um you know, basically just animals being cautious.
And I never really thought about the fact that, of course,
you know, the thunder and lightning would be tied in
to to downpours and then environments that have like a
(18:01):
monsoon season or just you know, heavy rains that that
would you know, potentially be a key signal to certain
species absolutely, you know, and and most dogs don't want
to be out in the downpour anyway, so it's it's, uh,
it's pretty funny. Yeah, So for any of our our
listeners in the Atlanta area, um or in anyone will
find themselves in the Atlanta area at some point if
(18:23):
they're interested in checking out the Amphibian Foundation headquarters. Oh
what do they need to know? What do they need
to do? Uh? Yeah, we we welcome visitors. And again
the facility itself, the building is not open to the public,
so that but we do have many events that you
can go to our website and see our events page.
But we are located on the City Park in our
(18:46):
outdoor facilities UM the Amphibian Research and Conservation Center UM.
We nicknamed that metamorphosis Meadow that is open uh city
Park hour so dauntal dusk and we just through a
through a grant from Georgia Department and Natural Resources. We
have some really beautiful signs out there so you can
(19:07):
walk out and see what we're doing. Otherwise it just
it looks kind of peculiar. There are these twenty cattle
tanks basically that have been fitted with endangered amphibians. But
now they have some very beautiful signs explaining what's happening
there and what we're trying to accomplish. Excellent. All right,
looks like it's time for a break, but we will
be right back with more of the interview and we're back.
(19:32):
So one of the other reasons I wanted to bring
back on the show is to to follow up on
a conversation I had with you UH at the Foundation
headquarters of several months back, and that's on the topic
of unfairly vilified reptiles, UH, because you know, we we
we were hardwired to have certain reactions to snakes. UM,
(19:56):
and and snakes, I think are the obvious starting point here,
and we have we have listeners all over the world.
We have listeners in Ireland who you know, generally don't
have to deal with snakes unless they want to. And
we hear from listeners in in Australia who have have
quite a few snakes to to convene themselves with. But
here and say that the Southeastern United States? What what
(20:18):
what our what's our actual risk level with encountering a
snake that could actually harm us, that actually is venomous. Well, Um,
thank you for bringing up this topic. It's very personal
to me and I have been focused on amphibians my
whole life and have always made UM it important to
(20:39):
to talk about the truth about some of these reptiles
that people just really seem to hate or like to
love to hate them, you know. And so I like
to give some facts whenever I'm asked, and for here, um,
you know, in the Southeast, when I was moving to Atlanta,
I was warned that there were going to be a
lot of copper heads um, and so I came in
(21:02):
hoping to be able to see some copper heads um.
And that is a regularly encountered species here in metche Atlanta,
you know. So um, what we've tried to do is
just focus on educating people about the truths about copper
heads and uh. And the probably the most important thing
is just how to properly identify one. So we do
(21:26):
lots of workshops. We have copper heads as part of
all of our children's programming really and you know, to
address the hardwired thing. I think to some degree you're right,
But in our experience, and we do a lot of
engagement with kids, and they're not nearly as terrified as
the adults are, you know. I So I think at
(21:47):
least to some degree that is being taught. They're queuing
in on how the adults in their lives are reacting
to snakes. Absolutely. So for some of our camps, we
have and of course in a tectic container. But we
have a live copper head and that's on Snake Day,
which is Friday. And that's also the day when the
parents are invited to come for the last hour and
(22:11):
and be taught by their kids what they had learned
that week. And the kids want to show off the
copper head, but the parents just don't even want to
see it, you know, So I think that's very telling. UM.
Can you can you briefly describe the copper head to
our listeners and be happy to um. So there are
(22:32):
some species that can be confused unless you actually see
a live copper head, and then I don't think there's
any mistaking them because they have a copper head. Now
that's well named for that reason. UM. And then when
we give UM talks to the public, we usually hand
out Hershey's kisses because they have hershe could kiss patterns
(22:54):
on their backs and it's the only snake that has that,
so UM and we hope that those treats will help
drive that home and UM, and you know, they do
have a lot of their beautiful snakes. They have a
lot of coppery color on them, so they're well named
and they also that is meant to blend in with leaves.
(23:15):
You know, if they're lying on a bed of leaves,
they're practically invisible, you know. And so um, one of
my committee members for graduate school has done a very
um I've done a study, very compelling study on you know,
if if a foot falls near a venomous snake, there's
very little chance that they're going to strike you. You know.
(23:35):
So um that he did this experiment with cutouts of
feet and hands, and hands would have listened much more
of a response than feet. So that is part of
our program as well as we're trying to encourage people
not to grab or try to kill these things. You know.
So we have a copperhead rescue and advocacy program here
(23:57):
in Atlanta where we took it upon our off so
we um, we go out, people can call us. If
they can verify that it is a copper head, we
will come and relocate it. So we don't want people
to get bit and we don't want um copper heads
to get killed. And you know, so I've been collecting
(24:17):
data on these calls and only six percent of them
are actually copper heads. A lot of times they're killed
the snakes they're just just doing their snake thing, and
people think they're copper heads and killing them. So we're
trying to offer an alternative to that. So the number
(24:38):
of of the the details that you bring up here
are are interesting for starters. The whole. The fact that
the snake reacts more to a hand than to a foot,
I mean, that makes perfect sense because it's it's it
doesn't have a limitless supply of venom, and to use
its venom is is itself a risky move And so
it's you know which which in which case is it
(25:00):
actually more threatened. It's going to be more threatened by
the hand that is reaching into its abode, perhaps to
grab it. And then on the you know, on the
subject of it just killing snakes. Having grown up or
part of my growing up in like in a rural environment,
I certainly remember it being a thing that if if
if a suspected venomous snake was encountered, it was like
(25:21):
an adult's job to kill it um and to go
after it and you know, chop it up. The idea,
I guess being that it would it would just actively
hunt us down or something, you know. But but these
animals have a have a role in the local environment,
even the local environment surrounding our houses, right, and attacking
(25:42):
humans is not their role. Um, So I've I've never
had that happen. I've encountered lots of venomous snakes in
my field work and um, including in the everglades, which
is not too shabby place to find venomous snakes. And UM,
they've never had one attack. I have them either retreat
(26:05):
or UM show me very politely that they are not
really digging this interaction and UM, but you know, they
do have a vital role, you know. And snakes are
extremely important for a variety of reasons. Broadly, all snakes,
you know, most of them are feeding on rodents, you know,
(26:27):
so that's their primary food source, at least for most
of the snakes that will encounter. And you know that
it's been shown that a decrease in snake populations is
an increase in the rodent populations. And in the rodent
unlike the snakes, the rodents do want to get into
our house, and I do want to, you know, actively
(26:49):
leach off of of our provisions exactly. And rodents can
carry disease that would affect humans. And and that is
also have shown to be the case is an increase
in tickborn disease, for example, Um, when there's an increase
in rodents. So, uh, snakes are our friends, you know.
And I try to really drive home that they just
(27:12):
want to be left alone. You know, they really don't
want to attack. Uh. Most of the time, the vast
majority of the time, they'll they'll show some sign that
you can out as a warning, you know, Like the
most conspicuous is a rattle snake. In that rattle is
just to show you that it really does not want
to bite you, you know. So and uh and the
(27:34):
copperheads do not have a rattle, but they will often
rattle their tail regardless. And that's uh if if the
tail is in leaves, for example, it can sound a
lot like a rattle, but it will shake it very
very rapidly, you know. So copperhends definitely do not want
to bite now. And in terms of the snakes that
(27:55):
live immediately around us, uh. For for for anyone who's not
familiar with the Atlanta, Atlanta sometimes we're called a a
city in a forest. Uh. You know, we have a
fair amount of of vegetation and uh, and my my
home in particular, is surrounded by a number of big trees.
It's not that huge of a yard or anything. But
we never really see snakes. But occasionally we'll find a
(28:17):
snake skin or you know, or occasionally, um, there have
been a time or two glimps like a small snake,
and then it's gone and we never see it again.
Are there are there snakes living around us like that?
We're just were They're just secretive and we're not going
to be privy to their their presence. Yeah, that's a
great question, because you know, you have to really want
(28:39):
to find snakes to get out there and find them,
and then it's still very difficult. So if you just
see a snake, you know, you're you're pretty fortunate here
in Atlanta, are really any metropolitan area if you still
have snakes around, then you know, that's some indication that
there's at least some some habitats still have before them.
(29:01):
So those are the glimpses that we get. The ship
skin is a good one because that'll stay there for
quite a while and then give you some evidence. Now,
another reptile that I wanted to talk about here is
another one that I distinctly remember being vilified when I
was younger, and that's the snapping turtle. Um. Like, one
(29:21):
of the examples I think I'm mentioning this to you
already is that I remember it being I remember being
told that if a snapping turtle was in your fish pond,
that you had to kill the snapping turtle because it
was going to inevitably eat all your fish or something
along those mines. So I remember, like fairly at the time,
(29:41):
as a as a kid like kind of horrific scenes
of a snapping turtle being fished out of a pond
by I think it was a scout leader at the time,
and then like hacked to death and just left dead
by the side of the pond, all because there was
this you know, loose idea that it was going to
you know, harm the fishing bond. Uh and and it
(30:02):
seems like they're like various you know, other examples of
that I remember being mentioned where it just it sounds
like people unfairly considered the snapping turtle to be a
nuisance or a menace and then also felt like they
had increased license to mess with it. You really hit
the nail on the head with that, um because I
(30:23):
think in some areas the snapping turtles more hated than
the copper head, you know. And but yes, I have
been very involved in in snapping turtle advocacy, I guess,
um since since I started studying biology. Um. And I
think one of the inspirations was that someone had brought
(30:44):
me this was in Massachusetts, but someone had bought brought
me a a snapping turtle that had been shot and beaten,
but it wasn't dead, um. And I was able to
nurse this thing back to health. And the bullet, as
far as I know, is still in this animal. Um,
but it was paralyzed on the right side. Um. And
(31:05):
he didn't snap anymore, you know, so he was he
lost his snap and uh, I would take him for outreach,
you know, and I would um talked to people about
snapping snapper truths about the snapping turtle. You know, there's
no for example, there's no attack snapping turtle. You know,
they don't see you and then sneak up and attack you.
(31:27):
That has never happened. They they leave, you know, they
see you and they're they're out of there. And and
we can also show people how to approach a snapping
turtles safely, you know, so that you know, um, this
this turtle I'm mentioning, his name was Vito, and Vito
wasn't about twenty five pounds, so kind of average. Wait
(31:49):
for a huge snapper you might see out on the road.
And you know, anybody can can safely move one of
these things, because occasionally that happens as well. It's like
someone's trying to help the turtle and and it's snapping.
Turtles also don't know how to show appreciation there being
so but it's it's it's all about being safe and
(32:09):
respecting the animal and and um and acknowledging the truths
around these because obviously people are fascinated by them, but
then there are those that do really enjoy putting a
hate on them or killing them or whatever. So I mean,
obviously I can see where the fascination comes from, because
they are fascinating creatures. You know, they have this this
(32:32):
kind of you know, ferocious nature, seemingly ferocious nature up close.
You know they're like little tanks. But but where does
this where do you think this this other side of
it comes from, Like this idea that a that a
snapping turtle would be, you know, an enemy of the
wild because you know, like you said they're not they're
not seeking us out right, Yeah, they're not. Um. I
(32:54):
think part of it is that for certain parts of
the year, the female travel to lay their eggs, and
so they're not in the water, and I think that's
when a lot of the interactions happen. So most of
the time, when you see a snapping turtle out of
the water, that's a female either going to lay her
eggs or returning from laying her and she just wants
(33:16):
to get back to her muck, you know. But that's
when a lot of the interactions happen. And so you know,
I've been told so many stories about people putting broomsticks
in their faces and stuff. And I don't know how
I would react if someone stuck a broomstick phase, but
it would would not be positive. But you know, make
no mistakes, snapping turtles bite and they bite hard. I
(33:38):
would not want to get bitten by a snapping turtle.
But you know, one of the myths is that they
will bite your hand off or your finger. It's been
proven that they lack the jaw strength to do anything
like that, removing a digit. I'm not saying it won't
be pleasant, but you know, if you if someone's talking
(34:00):
about that or biting up roomstick in half, then they're
talking about a different species, the alligator snapper, which is
very rare and very secretive, and I don't think most
people interact with those. It's the common snapper. Then his uh,
it lives in infamy and his pretty persecuted. Here yeah yeah,
(34:22):
and like another myth I remember hearing as a kid
was that, uh, this just grotesque to to think about.
But the idea that if you were to put your
palm out to the snapping turtle, it would not be
able to and you kept your palm flat, the snapping
turtle would not be able to bite your palm, which
sounds like a terrible idea. This sounds just like a
(34:42):
story that originated with the you know, drunken idiots messing
um with a turtle um. And then one that I
didn't didn't know about until until recently, I think feel
one of your your outreach episodes was this myth involving
snapping turtles and thunder and lightning. Can you tell us
about that? Well? Yes, so, um, I haven't heard those
(35:04):
until relatively recently. But I would never put my palm
up to a snapping turtle. Well, um and then yeah,
I'm not sure where the thunder and lightning came in,
but I can't imagine that is based on any actual evidence.
But without knowing more, I wouldn't want to say too much.
But um, they seem to be out and about regardless
(35:29):
of the weather, so I don't think there's anything to it,
but I could be wrong. Yeah, I think the version
I heard was that if a snapping turtle were to
bite you while it thundered, it wouldn't let go until
it thundered. I've done something that sounds completely ridiculous, and
I know has snapping turtles bite is very quick but
very powerful, so I don't think. Yeah, I've never had
(35:53):
them by anything and hold on for very long this
um uh and and it's really one of their last
lines of defense. So snapping turtle on land is an
awkward beast. You know, they're not comfortable, so like they
literally they're not messing around. They're just trying to get
to where they're going and it's going to be water.
(36:15):
Uh and so they're they're also very vulnerable. So snapping turtles,
I don't know if you've ever seen the underside of
one but there's it's all flesh. It looks kind of
like they're wearing a bikini that's too small. It doesn't
have as much plate as Yeah, so there's lots there
are a lot of vulnerability abilities there. And um, so
they will a lot of times they'll back up to
(36:36):
you if they see you. They'll point the back of
their shell at you because that's where the serrations are
and it's pointing so that I can see how that
would be effective for a predator, you know. Um and
if that doesn't work and you're near the business end,
if it snapping turtle, it'll bite and they have a
very long long neck. Now, aside from just the the
you know, the obvious fact that we should not be
(36:59):
cruel to snapping turtles and and actively provoke snapping turtles,
what what is their their role in in a local environment? Like,
what what is the what is the how do they
benefit the local environment? Um? Yeah, great, snapping turtles are
not the incredible hunters that most people think they are.
You know. So they do a lot of they'll eat carrying,
(37:23):
you know, things that have died, things that are obviously
easier to catch if they're already dead. Um. Surprisingly, vegetation
is a big part of a snapping turtles tyed too,
So part of what they do is is eat those
types of things, but also dredge up. They stir up
the bottoms of a lot of these wetlonds, which is
important to keep the wellands healthy. I would if I
(37:46):
had upon in my property, I would encourage the snapping
turtles because they are keeping um some of the weaker, slower,
dying or dead animals eaten and also, um know, stirring up,
keeping the bottom the basin of these well and is
healthy as well. Now you mentioned earlier you know there's
(38:06):
a safe way to approach them. Uh what what? What
are the like? When? When is it? Is it ever
a good idea to approach snapper turtle just in cases
where it's on the road or well, yeah, on the
road is a big one. Um So if people were
interested in doing that, UM, first make sure you're safe,
(38:27):
don't step into traffic or anything like that. Um. But
you you certainly want to put the snapper in the
direction it was heading. And the reason for that is
that if you put it in the opposite direction, it's
going to turn around across the road again. Because they're
like I said before, they're they're never just wandering. They
know where they're going and where they need to go. UM.
(38:47):
And then there's two ways that people pick up snapping turtles.
My way is to have to approach it from behind.
It's very important, um and even the largest, fastest, most
aggressive snapping turtles aren't as fast as as not even close.
So you can get behind the snapping turtle and I
(39:07):
put my hand underneath its tail, on the plaster on
the belly shell and lift while simultaneously holding the base
of the tail. You can't grab a snapping turtle from
the tail exclusively without risking permanent injury to the vertebrae.
That's the tail is the vertebrae, so the majority of
(39:28):
the weight is going to be um For me. I
use my non dominant hand underneath the turtle and just
hoist that sucker. And I've been able to lift um,
you know, pretty good size over forty pounds snapping turtles.
That way, you don't necessarily have to lift them up
very high, just enough to scoot them off. And just remember,
they're never gonna thank you for that service. All right,
(39:52):
it looks like it's time for a break to hear
from our sponsor. But we will be right back with
more of this interview, and we return now when we're
talking about stamming turtles and also the venomous snakes. To
what degree are they are these various species protected by
(40:13):
by state and federal laws. UM. Federal laws. I don't
know if any legislation UM. In Massachusetts, at least when
I lived there it was a while ago, but the
snapping turtle enjoyed no protections. UM. That may have changed
since the nineties. In Georgia, It's really interesting because venomous
(40:35):
snakes have no protections on them, um, but all of
the native non venomous snakes do so. UM. Technically, people
that are killing non venomous snakes thinking their copperheads are
breaking state law. UM. And then and then the venomous
snakes have no, um, no protection at all. Eastern diamond
(40:59):
banks are are not doing well, so there's a good
chance that they could be protected in the future. And
I guess it goes without saying that if anyone that's
really interested in, say, having a turtle or a snake
as a pet, should not just go about capturing them
from the wild. That's horrible and uh, I'll tell you why. Um,
(41:21):
there's really two reasons. One one, as you probably will
depending on the state, be breaking some type of law. Um.
And to these animals rarely adapt well to captivity. So
it's best if you wanted a snake or a turtle
as a pet, and I would advocate for that if
done responsibly, because that is a gateway. It was a
(41:41):
gateway for me. It's a gateway for many people to
get involved in conservation because they're fascinating animals. Um. But
you can search out captive bread animals that these are
breeders who are committed to more sustainable practices and are
producing animals in captivity. So you're not removing animals from
(42:04):
the wild. That's important. But also these animals just do
better as pets, you know, than than pulling something out
of the wild that could have some more wild tendencies.
But also, um, you know don't typically acclimate well to captivity.
All right, well let's let's come back to some some
of the myths again. Um. Firstly, it was snapping turtles. Um,
(42:27):
you mentioned already that uh that you know, there's some
sizeable specimens out there, you know, they was mentioned like
forty pounds snapping turtles. Um, but how how how big
are the snapping turtles were generally going to encounter in
the wild? And then how how wild are the tall
tall tales concerning their size. I've heard some good tall tales.
I think that's human nature, you know. Um, but um,
(42:51):
the world's record for a snapping turtle, which was recently broken,
so before it was seventy five pounds, and that's just
an enormous snapping turtle. That animal had an eighteen inch shell,
so a foot and a half. That's not as big
as the Volkswagen Beetle like some people claim, or a
large car tire. Would that be like an alligator snapping turtle?
That's a common snap Alligator snapping turtles get much much larger,
(43:16):
so infrequently encountered by anyone, let alone the general public.
That you know, most of these myths are around the
common snapper. Um. Then now the world's record is now
nineteen and a half inches, and that was an eighty
six pound animal. That's massive. The majority of the animals
that we find, at least here in Atlanta, which are
(43:37):
really large, are in the twenty low thirty pounds. So
and and what kind of what does the research tell
us about their their actual bite strength. Yes, So I
was very fortunate. When I was an undergraduate, there was
a visiting scholar coming, Anthony Harrell, and he studies bite
force and he needed someone to go out and trap
(43:57):
him some wild turtles to study, and I was very
happy to have that responsibility. So I had trapped some
snappers for him, and he came and measured the bite
force of these snappers. So when I mentioned and that
was a I think a forty eight pound snapper was
the biggest. So that's a big, big turtle um And
(44:17):
it had a fifty fifteen inch shell and so it
was not it lacked the draw strength of the jaw
strength to do any significant damage to human um. But
there are some other turtles that that he studied here
and the at the collection in New mass that were
good bite with a lot of strength, so enough to
(44:38):
even destroy his bite ometer, the device he used to
measure the turtles bite force. But the snapping turtles were
not even close. Wow. Now, in terms of the venom
of the copper head, to come back to that, how
how venomous is the copper head and how does it
does it stack up with other their venoms and naturally
(45:01):
occurring poisons, yes, thank you. UM. Copper head bites um
are not pleasant. I mean, I've never been been by
a copperhead, but I would not want to so. But
there's been one confirmed human death from a copper head bite,
so that's very unlikely, you know. So UM, I would
never suggest someone just walk it off. I would immediately
(45:23):
seek medical attention. But a lot of times there's no
need to to um and administer anti vannin or anything
like that with a copper head bite. Uh. Their their
venom is considered very mild compared to other snakes and UM.
Copperheads also lack um a rattle or a cotton mouth
to demonstrate that they're unhappy. So uh, they're more likely
(45:47):
to dry bite on the first that that would be.
That could maybe even be considered a warning for them,
a little bit like, hey, this is gonna go downhill
fast for you if you keep doing what you're doing. Um,
so I guess. I mean, like I said, I wouldn't
want to be bit by any of them, but if
I had to choose, if I had to take a bite,
it would certainly be the copperhead. Now, are there are
(46:07):
there uses for copper head venom, yes and and um.
When we're advocating for these animals, we like to point
out that the copper heads, specifically their venom has been
used to attack cancer cells, you know, and specifically breast cancer.
It can stop that from spreading. So um, and many
venoms from snakes have been used for our investigated and
(46:31):
used for their pharmaceutical properties to benefit humans. So you know,
the venoms of snakes are also fascinating. But there are
hemotoxic venoms like like the copper head, and like our vipers,
rattlesnake and cotton mouth which um can be used to
treat blood disorders you know, um, other snakes that are
(46:52):
neurotoxic and some examples, some famous examples of that are
the cobra, but here we have a coral snake. You know,
those venoms and be used to treat neurological disorders, even
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, you know. So there's a treasure trophe
in there and then in the snake venoms of things,
uh that we can utilize from from these animals. Well yeah,
(47:14):
I mean it makes sense. It's a it's a highly
evolved bioweapon and and I mean, the same can be
said for a lot of a lot of substances in
the world that we use medicinally, be at a you know,
a spice or you know, or something else. So yeah,
that that makes sense, and that would be another reason
not to just indistrib discriminately kill uh venomous snakes in
(47:36):
our vicinity. And then of course coming back to just
the the perceived danger than the lack of danger, right exactly.
So we try to arm people with the facts, you know,
and no matter what we do or what anyone does,
snakes are going to elicit fear, you know, and that's
they're really good at that. But they're also fascinating. So
(47:57):
when we when we address people with proper information, and
like I said, just being able to identify a copper
head and and learning a little bit about their role
can help, because there are lots of things that are
more deadly than copper heads, you know, like I said,
one per I think it was back going all the
way back to the sixties, only one confirmed death from
(48:20):
a copperhead by but there are lots of other things
that kill people every year, and huge numbers that don't
elicit the same fear as a copper head. So it's
pretty fascinating. So I had, oh during the Atlanta Science Festival.
For the last two years we've done what I like
to call the Biology of the Despised series. So we
(48:41):
started with copper heads and we did snapping turtles last year.
I think this coming year maybe we'll just do snakes
in general. But um, I had some interns from Emery,
Erica Fisher and Natalie Bauer put together a beautiful presentation,
and they put forth some things that are more deadly
than copper heads snakes, and uh, I thought I'd share
(49:03):
a couple of them with them here, because you know,
shopping on Black Friday, for example, five and fifty deaths
a year. Really well, dogs thirty deaths a year, vending
machines thirteen deaths a year. Just texting, you know, uh,
six thousand deaths a year, and we should be much
more afraid of texting than we should have snakes in uh.
(49:26):
You know, hot tap water accounts for forty five deaths
a year. These are all things that, at least by
the numbers, deserve a lot more fear than our than
our poor copper heads. So wow, So the next time
we uh, we feel ourselves giving into UH to fear
of of a copper head or here's someone else of reacting.
We just need to remind them hot tap water and
(49:47):
vending machines away are wealthy. Absolutely all right, Mark, Well,
thanks for coming on the show and chatting with us again,
sore chatting about about amphibians and snappers and UH and
copper heads. Next UH tell us if if anybody out
there wants to to learn more about the Amphibian Foundation,
where can they go? Yeah, our website, the Amphibian Foundation
(50:09):
dot org that has lots of ways that you can
get involved these You do not have to be in
Atlanta to get involved in amphibian conservation. So we outline
lots of things people can do uh, and then we're
on all the social media's UH at Amphibian found excellent.
All right, Well, thanks for chatting with us, my pleasure.
(50:30):
Thank you. All right, So there you have it. Thanks
again to Mark Mandinka for coming in again. If you
want to check out the Amphibian Foundation, you can read
all about them at Amphibian Foundation dot org. Big thanks
as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.
If you would like to get in touch with us
with feedback about this episode or any other, to suggest
(50:52):
a topic for the future, or just to say hello.
You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow
your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is
a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
(51:13):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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