August 18, 2011 • 33 mins
Imagine if you could choose to erase a particularly agonizing or embarrassing memory with a quick injection or a handy pill. Sounds nifty, but could this ever happen in real life? Join Robert and Julie as they explore brain wiping techniques.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. All Right,
we were just talking about this. Everyone has this memory
or generally more than one, mary that like some sort
of embarrassment from the past and enters your mind. And
(00:27):
what happens. You just curl up in a fetal position
because it's such an awful memory and you just think,
why why I was just sitting here, I was just
doing the laundry, and then you just struck out of
nowhere and this memory. And I won't describe it because
I don't know. It's awful and embarrassing. Yeah, it haunts
me year after year. Yeah, I don't happen to me.
(00:48):
I'll think of like something that I said it was
just really stupid once. Um. Generally not on on this podcast,
you know, but but something to see. I think of
the things I say on this podcast and not crimming time,
but you know it, Okay, It'll enter my mind and
I'll find myself having to um kind of like do
a la la la la la, I can't hear you
kind of a thing. We're all we're all combat it
(01:09):
with just like a really nonsense phrase like and then
he turned into a goat. Like that used to be
a staple where I would think of something something embarrassing
in the past, and it would be like, and then
he turned into a goat, and then he turned into
a goat, and that would like the image of something
turning into a goat would help rid myself of of
self stabbing with that memory. Well, not only is that
(01:30):
a tip, but a little insight into the mind of
Robert Lamb. Goat turn absolutely good. I'm richly amused by them.
I see that. But yeah, this this is the problem,
and I think that some people would willingly undergo their
memories or specific memories being erased if they could. Yeah, yeah,
what if you could go in and say, all right,
instead of just having to go through this moment where
(01:51):
I drop into a fetal position or have to think
something stupid to combat something stupid, or then, how what
if I could just go in and have it removed,
Go into the doc and say, hey, I've got this
memory I want removed, and they're like, all right, well
think about it for a second. All right, I'm thinking
about it. Now and then whap is that it's very possible. Yeah,
it's very possible. And there this is something that came
(02:12):
up when when we were attending the World Science Festival
in New York, I attended a panel of about the
Unbearable Lightness of memory. And there it was just like
one of these sessions where they had had a number
of these guys, um and and women that were just
experts in the field of memory and are just on
the cutting edge of of seeing you know, of of
(02:33):
our understanding of memory and our exploitation of that understanding.
And so it was a very mind blowing a couple
of hours. And this is a topic that came up
and that these guys were saying, Yeah, within our lifetime.
Some were saying, within the next ten years, we will
have the technology to go in and selectively erase memories,
because we are doing it on rats currently, um, you know,
(02:55):
in some cases. So obviously that technology is going to
find its way into the mainstream. It is just a
matter of how and when and um, will we be
willing to undergo and why would we which we're going
to talk about today, but we're going to talk a
little bit more specifically about memories before we go into that,
and we are going to talk about technology that exists
now to wipe the memory in a clean fashion, not
(03:18):
in a brain damage way, but in a rat because
we all know that you can erase memories by damaging
the brain. But that's that's kind of dumb. That's like
saying you can erase an ink by burning the paper.
That's not really erasing the baby out with the bath water,
right right, So we'll get into some of that as well.
But yeah, first we need to talk about exactly what
memory is, um, which is one of the big questions
(03:42):
that's again it's when we're continuing to answer and one
that we've been asking as long as we've had memory,
as long as we've had had intelligence among the species. Well, well,
let's lay down some nuts and bolts because this is
going to be important in some of the discussions that
we UM have later on about actually how we how
we would erase a specific memory. UM. So, what is
(04:03):
happening when you're making a memory? Basically, you have nerve
cells that are communicating by sending electrical signals which trigger
the release of chemicals across tying gaps called synapses. When
these are the neural junctions, and then as one cell
speaks to another, chemical changes at the synapse make it
easier for the signal to pass. Okay, so this is important.
If only a few signals are sent, this transforment transformation
(04:26):
among a network of cells is temporary, resulting in short
term memory. But if the signals keep coming through changes
that the most active snaps has become permanent and they
create long term memories. It is literally an anatomical change
to your brain. So it's I mean, it was just
if you look at it this way, different day, different brain. Yeah,
I was. I was really fascinated by that viewpoint, the
(04:49):
idea that that at the addition of a permanent memory
is the an anatomical difference in the brain. Because we
you know, we've talked about before this whole question of
like trying to figure out who and what we are
and the brains and ability to perceive itself, even if
we are completely atheistic in our in our viewpoints, even
if we're just the most scientific, hard boiled I don't
(05:10):
believe in ghosts kind of guy, you or goal I'm
I'm using guy in the non gender specific I know
you are, but but yeah, even if you just you know,
you don't believe in any of this nonsense, you still
can fall into this trap of of sort of thinking
of yourself is this non corporeal thing that just happens
(05:32):
during the bodies and we end up we end up
not thinking about ourselves our memory as a physical manifestation. Yeah,
And it is interesting to you to think of how
we regard ourselves mainly by what memories are are we
what shapes us? Our idea of ourselves is composed of memories,
right right? Um, So knowing that memory making is really
(05:55):
very a fragile process and um, and not as straight
forward as straightforward as we thought, really sort of is
a game changer and how we perceive ourselves and and
just it's amazing to think that we are constructing this
reality out of a really flawed process, right, because flawed
(06:15):
in a sense. But but basically it comes down to
the way we used to think about let's let's talk
about that because because ultimately the way it works is
the way it works, and it works that way due
to um, you know, rigorous evolution, uh, and it and
it is important that it works the way it works.
But the way you're not not going to evolution. I'm
just saying that it's not as ironclad as and we thought.
(06:37):
Our memories are ephemeral little things. Yes, and so just
as an example, the old way of looking at how
how memories worked, want a little something like this, you
would learn something, UM, let's say you would learn that. UM.
Let's let's think about what's the what's the most recent
thing you learned about cicada's and their lifespan? Okay, well
(06:59):
let's say you, um, you learned that cicadas um, some
species of cicadas uh will are a thirteen year lifecycle
where they go to ground for thirteen years. All right,
So you learn that, all right, and then you store
it and then when you go to retrieve it, you
retrieve it. So it's like I take the fact, I
put it in the storage drawer the brain, and then
(07:21):
I retrieve it. And there's there's no update process going
on here. This is the old model. And then if
you were to say then you were suddenly to learn, oh,
well there's thirteen and seventeen here. That's an addition, that's
an update, but there's not really an update process going on.
It's just like, oh, I'll store that memory too, well,
the the current view is the reconsolidation view, and this
(07:43):
is this is a little more complicated, and this is
this is how it would go. You'll learn the fact, right, okay,
cicadas years, you store the fact, all right, and then
you retrieve the fact. But when you retrieve the fact, uh,
it goes through up date, reconsolidation, and then it's stored again.
So the idea is that every time we reach into
(08:06):
the storage center of our brain and retrieve something, be
it a little fact about Cicada's or our family history
or something about ourselves, we retrieve it and we update
it and then we put it back. So it's it's
ever changing. There's no such thing as this memory. Like
the memories are not set in stone. They are um there.
(08:27):
They are these continued things that alter every time we
touch it. It's kind of like if it we're a
police case. You know, they're always talking about like the
chain of um, not the chain of command. What is
it with evidence? Uh, it's like a chain of possession
or something. I'll give a chain of obsession. Yeah, one
of our more crime oriented or police work oriented of
yours will correctus on this, but but yeah, they're very
concerned with with who has the control of the evidence
(08:50):
at any given moment, because they could flowt they could
they could get fingerprints on it or tamper with it
in some uh some way, shape or form. So if
you look at memory, like that memory, every time you
get it out, somebody's getting their paws on it. I
mean you're getting your paws on it. That you're adding
new information to it, and some of that new information
and you add may not be good information, well right, right,
(09:11):
And when you're sharing that information, you're corroborating some of
your information, right, and you're adding to it, and you
know you've got the whole human experience sort of coming
in and coloring that experience that memory, that data. Yeah,
Like here's an example. Let's see you have She's a
who's a childhood friend of yours, Cheryl. All right, Let's
(09:32):
say you when you first meet Cheryl and you're your
friends with Cheryl and uh, and then you you go
out roller skating and you fall down and then you're
trying to go backwards again fancy, and then later on, um,
you have a falling out with Cheryl and you begin
to see think of Cheryl as um your enemy Okay, Yeah,
(09:55):
so then you could conceivably retrieve that memory of you
falling down pushed me exactly. You add in this new
information where Cheryl is the great adversary, and and now
the memory is restored in a slightly different form. Now
this isn't necessarily a false memory then, has it or
a cover memory? No? No, but it's potentially flawed. It's
(10:15):
also potentially more accurate. Who knows, maybe Cheryl did push you,
but it's but it's changing. What I thought was really
interesting is how much emotion can really determine what sort
of memory you get out of an experience. And you
had a really interesting um example from the panel that
had to do with nine eleven. Right, Yeah, these uh,
you know, neuroscientists are are kind of awesome, and they're
(10:37):
always I mean, you can you can say that they're
a little too focused on their work in this particular example,
but but I think it's it's very telling. Nine eleven occurs,
you know, tragic, horrible day for anyone involved. But these
guys were instantly thinking, all right, this is a great example.
This is a great opportunity for us to test how
our memory reacts with traumatic situations. Because every because anybody
(11:00):
you can ask that question, you know, it's like what
were you doing on nine eleven? Or where were you
when Kennedy was shot? For older members of the audience,
you know, there would be some sort of people always
have really specific answers. I was in my living room,
and uh, it's not necessarily accurate, right, Yeah, they did
this study where they were they were act They were
checking everybody's memory, doing test on it to see how
(11:21):
accurate their memory was of their of their like what
they were wearing, what they were eating for breakfast on
nine eleven versus other times, and uh, and there was
there was actually less accuracy for nine eleven. And it's
because there's less less activity uh in the in the
pair of hippocampus, which is involved in the details, and
(11:44):
it's um and it ends up being more of an
emotional response. Amygdala is really active in this case, right,
The amigdeala is the emotional seat, and that's where all
the activity is of when forming these these traumatic memories,
right where it's the the detail or did uh hi.
Hippocampus is taking a back seat to that, and so
the pair of hippocampus is noting would normally note like
(12:07):
what you were wearing, what time it was, those sort
of details. But the interesting thing is people were so
sure about it, like they're like, I was totally wearing
a green shirt and eating fruit loops and that was
that was it. I have this clean memory, and uh,
it's we basically think it is an evolutionary response, Like
it's not just like some sort of flaw. It's because
if you're in a situation where it maybe life or death,
(12:28):
you may need to run for your life, you may
need to make some very quick decisions in order to
survive or do the right thing, your brain basically doesn't
want you to care about the details. So because it's
in the fear response, right right, it's it's more reacted
like you got to do something, dude, don't worry what
your fruit loops are doing or what your shirt you
were wearing, and and so you're sure about it because
(12:49):
it's because it's the sort of the trick of the memory,
so that you're not concerned with it. Yeah, okay, that
makes sense. And it also makes sense that people have
are so sure about it because it was a very
prominent at emotional experience, right, so it meant so much
to them that they felt like, well, of course I
was wearing this short and of course I remember every
detail because that's how it felt to me rather than
(13:12):
what it actually was. But why would we need to
to erase the memory? Right? Yeah, I mean, we actually
have some very good reasons why someone would want to
undergo this process, and we'll get to that right at
its quick break. This podcast is brought to you by Intel,
the sponsors of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel,
(13:32):
we believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join
us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers to
life's questions and we're back. Yeah. It's kind of a
trickier question than than it may seem on the surface,
because even when bad things happen to us, um, they
(13:52):
become traumatic memories a lot of the times because we
need to be able to avoid those situations in the future.
We need to or just embarrassing memory. You know, it's
like it was really embarrassing the time, uh you know,
you got up and uh you know, it made some
faux pad a meeting or something, and so you are
remembering that it stings in your memory, but you're not
making that same faux pas every time you go into
(14:13):
the sub meeting, you know. So, yeah, it plays an
important role. It does. You're right, and even something is something.
I was just thinking about a friend of mine who
went to a wedding and she decided not to wear
any undy's but she had on a little other contraption
and which I won't get too specific, because you know,
we're a clean podcast here, But she was dancing in
her dress, got caught up, and she moved the world,
(14:36):
and you know, for the rest of her life she's thinking,
always were underwear with this contraption always where, you know.
I mean, it's important, right, And that's kind of a
low brow example, but still, yeah. I mean the movie
that I'm sure everyone instantly thought of when they saw
this podcast, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. I mean,
the whole message of that is this is where the
(14:57):
end of they go to erase this painful breakup so
they and move on with their lives. But in erasing
the painful breakup, they end up falling in love with
each other. In the real world, you'd end up not
learning from their mistakes, right, right, she would underwear less
mooning people for first of her life. And she didn't
feel ashamefaced about it. Um. Still, if it starts interfering
with your life, that's where it becomes an issue. Okay,
So if it became an anxiety disorder, she decided not
(15:19):
to leave her house or to ever, you know, she
can even look at a pair of underwear or anything else. Um,
that would be really traumatic. Right. And and of course
on a more serious note, you see this a lot
with people coming back from more with PTSD, and it's
it's a it's a horrible disorder. And the reason is
because you are re experiencing the event again and again
(15:42):
over and over. So you might want to you know,
undergo some sort of uh process to alleviate that if
you could. Yeah, especially when the response that it and
that it that it brings up is not going to
be a helpful one. Like if you're just totally freezing, uh,
you know, every time a milk carton drops in the
in the grocery store, or if you're you're becoming super
(16:04):
defensive and ready to you know, karate drop something every
time there's a loud noise, that's not helpful, right, Same
thing with phobias in the in the same sense where
if you have an extreme irrational fear and you know
it's it's shuddering you in your house then and in
every time that you think of a memory and you
then augment it with this phobia, and then you predict
the future thinking, oh, if I leave my house, this
(16:26):
is going to happen. UM, then you would probably want
to try to remediate that if it would be good
to be able to do zap or up that memory
as well, discussed here in just about Yeah we will
um nice pun by the way. Uh. But then there's
also something called residual neuropathic pain, which is a complex
chronic pain state that's usually accompanied by tissue injury. And
(16:48):
you can see this sometimes in spinal cord injuries or
patients undergoing chemotherapy or people with diabetes UM. And that's
when the damage nerve fibers sent incorrect signals to other
pain centers. And you actually at me a really cool
article about UM. Actually I think it was a blog
post from the World Science Festival on pain and memory
(17:08):
in the spinal cord and how your spinal cord is
actually tagging that pain UM with the memory and calling
it up. And they used an example of saying, hey,
you can't you slam your your hand on the door,
and then for days afterwards, the neurons in your spine
carry the pain signals more easily from your hand to
your brain, and as a result, your hand feels more
(17:29):
sensitive and even the lightest touch will trigger an unpleasant reaction.
Two groups of scientists have found that one special molecule
p mk zeta, which we'll talk about, underlies both processes,
and it helps to store memories in our brains and
it sensitizes neurons in our spines after a painful experience.
So much of this is related to pain, memory and
(17:49):
so on and so forth. Yeah, and it's going about
in these cases, it's going above and beyond the simple
of you know, importance of pain, which is, hey, don't
do that because it's damaging your tissue, don't or be careful,
there's something wrong with your leg. It's it's it's it's
beyond that and it needs to be addressed. Right yeah.
So okay, let's say you have a memory you want
to race. You're going to go to a pro. What
(18:11):
are your options here? Well, one option, of course, would
be cortisol curving drugs, right, yes, yes, which this was
some really interesting to me. There are thirty three university
students who watched a film to picking a granddaughter helping
her grandfather make a birdhouse. This is all related to
the cortisol, which is a stress hormone, by the way,
(18:32):
and in the film she accidentally gets her hand caught
in the saw and yeah, and so of course these
thirty three university students are sitting there in an emotional distress.
And even though the film had a nice happy ending
and her her hand was back on um, you know,
people were a little bit flamm x by it. So
what researchers did after putting them through all this this
(18:54):
dress is they collected saliva to measure cortisol again, that
stress hormone. And then three days later, this is the
really trippy thing about this, the volunteers were brought back
to the lab and some were given a placebo, while
the rest were given one of two doses of a
drug that knocks back the amount of cortisol that courses
through your body. And then they were asked to recall
(19:16):
the video presentations and lo and behold the people who
were on the higher dose of the inhibitor for the cortisol.
The harder it was for them to remember anything at all.
And they found this even four days later, Uh, the
same thing when they administered the cortisol, This memory just
kept fading and fading as opposed to the control group
who had no cortisol, Which is really I think it's
(19:40):
cool because you know, I have learned that cortisol, if
you if you're if you have a lot of anxiety
or if um, you know you're real stressed throughout the
day in your cortisol levels peak can really mess with
your body. In fact, is it's a big cause for
people um not able to sleep or having bouts of
insomnia to because it really throws your body off. Um.
(20:02):
And if anybody's interested in reading more about that. The
study was published in the August issue of Journal of
Clinical end of Chronology and met about metabolism cool. Well,
the other really fascinating option and this is the one
that really they spent a lot of time within this
uh the World Science Festival and uh and it was
really like the reason I was like, oh, we gotta
do a podcast about this is this substance called ZIP
(20:24):
that they've developed. And one of the key guys involved
in this is Todd Sacktor, who was at the World
Science Festival to talk about this really amusic We like
do we I don't know. We should never do that,
um because he will come at us with the ZIP stuff.
That's right, Mr Sector never mind. Yeah, ZIP is basically
(20:46):
in two thousand six, his team was able to use
ZIP to erase the memories in the brains of rats
and by neutralizing this p k M zeta that we
were mentioning earlier, which again it's like the glue from him.
That's right. So when when we were talking about the
all those uh memories really forming at the most active
(21:07):
synastic synactic points, it's that p mk data that is
the glue that is helping to solidify that memory. So
that's important in this ZIP process. Yeah, they injected and
they were testing it. They had like this carousel with
like with one area of like this just this round area.
They called it a carousel, but it's but one section
of it was electrocuted. So the rat is they put
it in and the rat eventually learns where not to
(21:29):
step because we'll get a shock. Then they inject ZIP
into the hippocampus and it just it cleans out even
very strong memories uh, you know, ones that have been
around for quite a while and suddenly the rat doesn't
know where not to step it. It basically they there
are different types of memories, and I should have mentioned
this earlier, I guess, but um, you know, we have
(21:50):
we have episodic memory for events, we have semantic memory
for facts. We have conditioning memories, which is like the
whole Pavlov's dog thing where you know, you hear a
dent dog, here's a bell and start salvating because they
thinks he's gonna get food. And then you have these
priming memories, which are which involves the unconscious activation of memory,
um kind of reminders. So ZIP basically will knock out
(22:13):
everything but priming. And it's pretty impressive. Yeah, I mean
it's impressive. It's scary. It's also uh it could be
a huge help to people if used in the right way. Right. Yeah,
And the really important thing here, like like I mentioned earlier,
is that this is not brain damage. In in sactor's
own words, it basically it doesn't hurt the brain. It
(22:34):
just restores it to factory settings. Yeah. I know, but
that's still kind of creepy. It is, it is creepy.
I mean, no, no one has used this on a human. Um,
it's really important to note them that we know of,
I guess. I mean, who knows what's going on out
there in the world, But as far as I know,
it's never been used on humans. Um, if it were
(22:55):
the like I said that, the priming memories still be there,
the sort of hind mine stuff would be there, it
would't mess with any of that. But but yeah, it's
it's it's it's kind of like the Bourne identity, except
you wouldn't be able to do karate like that would
be that would be gone. Um, you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah,
you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah, Okay, I don't know,
(23:16):
I'm thinking about it. It's just crazy to think about, like,
like what would that be like suddenly have that have
the ZIP put into your brain and then it's just
it just clears it out. Well. I mean, on the
one hand, um, and this was posted on Facebook not
too long ago. Uh, memory is sort of becoming a
very different thing for us than it used to be
thanks to the Internet. Right, It's it's not really as important.
(23:38):
It certainly as important, right, but but for some types
of things, stuff fac like learning karate. You could probably
go and watch a video if you need it to,
you know, I mean the Internet is very much an
external memory for us um and so rebuilding your your
brain or your memory. I guess on the flip side
of this, you've got their racing and then you've got
(23:59):
the Hey, how could I make it stronger? How could
I access memories? You could certainly even do that through
the breadcrumb trail of your social life on the Internet. Right,
That would be interested, That would make for an I
don't know if it would make for an interesting movie,
but I can just imagine somebody like having to rediscover
what their life was by going going into into their
Internet accounts and yeah, what if you were horrified, which
(24:22):
I can I cannot believe I wrote that, or you
know who, who are these people? Or wow, that person
is awesome. Well, there's a there's a number of eco
novel um and I forget the name of it off hand.
It's the it's uh, not his most recent one that
deals with like the Bridges of Prague or something, which
I don't think is out in English yet, but the
one proceeding that has to do with someone who loses
(24:43):
their memory and I think they reclaim it by looking
at like going and looking at the things they read
in comic books and whatnot. But but again I haven't
read that one yet. Yeah. Well, and then again on
the flip side that p mks data can actually be
used to strengthen memories too. That's another thing that they discovered.
They were able to put the more pkm zeta into
(25:04):
a Rats brain and its memory would improve. And also
it means ZIP is one of these things where no
one is saying, like, we got this thing called ZIP,
let's figure out things to use it for, and let's
star using it on people and more rats. Uh No.
But but the process going on there tells us a
lot about what's going on with memory. And we can
learn a lot from the from these experiments involving ZIP
and Rats. Well, and I always I'm interested in an
(25:27):
experiment when when something unintentional and unintentional happens and it's
a big breakthrough, like Okay, here's p mk zeta, let's
let's try to zap it. Oh, by the way, we
could also um instead of trying to lessen the amount
of pichemist zeta, we could also bolster the memory and
make it even better by injecting much more of this. Yeah. Now,
(25:48):
I mentioned earlier the the the whole retrieval and reconsolidation process,
and there there's a line of thinking that this may
be the key to erasing a memory, in that we
recall the memory, we we take it out of the
storage area, and we have it, and then we change
it and we put it back. It's and it's reconsolidated.
The new information is reconsolidated into it. And this again,
(26:08):
this is not this is not a cheapening of anything.
This is not a this is not a flaw in
the grand design. It's like, by necessity, we live in
a world, as we said before, of multiple changing objects
and symbols. You need to be able to navigate this world,
so you need a brain that can update, you know.
It's like it's like if you if you're like me
(26:30):
and you haven't bothered to plug your GPS system for
your car into a computer since you bought it, Like
roads are changing and and you occasionally encounter a new
road and uh, and the device is like, I don't
know where you are. You're in the middle of a field.
I guess our brains don't need to work like that
we need to be able to update with new information
from the office. When yeah, it's like that. So but
(26:54):
they think that when we when are when during this
retrieval phase, the memory may be vulnerable to so elective deletion.
The idea of being it's kind of like like, all right,
let's wait, let's watch what the brain's doing. All right,
he's getting the memory out of the drawer. He hasn't
in his hands, and then bam, shatter it and then
it's gone. Okay. So every time you take the memory
out and you take it for a walk, so to speak,
(27:17):
you're adding to it, but you're also taking away, right
and and in that moment, they think, during that reconsolidation process,
if we can develop a way to to to target specifically,
that would be that this would be how you would
do it, like and it would probably be a situation
where you would have to think about the memory where
they would be like, all right, start thinking about that
memory of such and such and and only think about it.
(27:38):
But even that is fraught with peril because how do
you know that that's the version of the of the
memory that you're trying to You know what I'm saying.
If each time you take it out, and the reality
of that memory becomes even more distorted. How do you
know if that's the point at which you want to
delete that memory, or at least that portion of it. Well,
because you don't really have any control about what you're
determining the memory to be. Come, I don't know, a
(28:00):
little more hot water because the baths too cold, a
little more cold, a lot of because the baths too hot.
But yeah, and then eventually the bath is overflowing. But
and this is probably why this is not going to
come online anytime soon for humans, right or The other
thing that I think about two is kind of like
a Ghostbuster situation. Do you remember the end of Ghostbusters?
But the second one? Not the second one goes my favorite,
(28:21):
and don't don't judge, I actually like the second one
as well. I'm not one of those Ghostbusters two haters.
But but Ghostbusters one at the end of it party
in the street, well no, no, before that, when Gooser
appears as the supermodel, the pink supermodel on the top
of the building, all right, and they blast Goeser, but
Ghoes is not dead, and Ghoser says, all right, I'm
(28:43):
going to destroy the world. But the next thing you
think about is the form I'm going to take. That's
going to be the form of the destructor. So everyone's like,
don't think of anything, don't think of the thing, don't
give this monster anything to me. And then dan Ackroyd's
character thinks of the step of marshmallow Man like ends
up trying to think of something in scent, and that
becomes the form of the destructor. So in this situation,
(29:04):
this hypothetical but probable future situation where someone is brought
into and they have to think of the their traumatic memory,
the memory they want to race, like, think of that breakup,
think of that time that um that you were covered
in chocolate as a child and a goat lift you like,
think of that and goat again. Think of that memory
and we'll erase it. And then you're like thinking over
like goat looking at me, goat looking at me. And
(29:25):
then you're like, did a goat really? You know? But
I saw a terrified child at a petting zoo once
that had covered like one of these awful kids that
had like had cut chocolate all over, hitting him or
herself and was just acting out and then walked into
the petting zoo where the goats were, and this like
enormously pregnant goat was like, oh man, that's what I
(29:46):
wanted exactly, And so the kids just freaking out, like
the goat is scaring to give me, and I was,
I was ritually amused. But that was probably traumatic with
the kid. But I just want to make that distinction
that you were not a chocolate covered child. No, no, no,
And I was just I was just witnessing it. But anyway,
I can imagine somebody, you know, having to think of this,
this traumatic memory, and then for a second they screw
up and they think of something favorable from their past.
(30:08):
They think of like their mom's uh, you know, apple pie,
or they think of you know, fishing with dad or something,
or or they they or something like their own phone
number or something important, and then zip, that one gets
destroyed by accident, and you're still stuck with the one
you wanted to get rid of, right, and you're like, great, thanks,
that was a great valuable memory. And now my friend
(30:28):
is still sick with the memory of dance around moon
and everybody. Yeah, and she no longer remembers her mom's name. Yeah, yeah, bum, Well,
I want to leave you with this quote, Um, that
I thought was really interesting. And uh, this is from
Douglas Fields, who's a neuroscientist, and he talks about how
(30:49):
important it is that we do forget things. Um, so
I know we've talked about memory retrieval, strengthening memories, forgetting them.
He says, like a midas cursed by how think his
wish granted that everything he touched would turn to gold.
Permanent retention of memories could be debilitating. This is because
forgetting it's just as important for learning as memory. Just
(31:09):
as you have talked about, bad habits could not be overcome,
skills would not be improved, Information such as as an
old address or phone number could not be updated, and
traumatic events would never fade from the horror that overwhelms
a person immediately after the trauma exactly. So it is
it is important to scrub the mind. Yeah, and I
will leave everyone with this quote because, Um, you can't
(31:32):
help but think of all the ways that something like
ZIP could be misused, just even today. Someone could use
ZIP on somebody after like robbing a bank, so they
wouldn't remember the details, or it could be used in
various espenage situations at the corporate as well. At the
World Science Festival. They asked Taught Sactride has has the
as they said, has the Pentagon contacted you? And he
(31:54):
todd Sacktric thinks for a second. He says, not that
I recall. Oh, I like it up. Yeah, because that
really leaves you hang in Yeah yeah, oh boys, t Sack,
he's wildy. Yeah. Of course if he'd really they'd really
use zip on in his response would have been something like,
who are all you people? What am I doing? Yeah? So, hey,
(32:15):
if you have any cool thoughts on this particular topic
and have or have questions about memory, because I'm hoping
to do at least one more stemming from this, uh,
this particular World Science Festival lecture, let us know. You
can find us on Facebook and Twitter. We are Blow
the Mind on both of those and we're always updating
those seeds with different stuff on each feed. Um. You know,
(32:36):
links to lots of cool articles, lots of interesting videos,
and of course in our own blog posts and podcast topics. Yeah,
and if you have ever successfully, like d I wide
your own memory eraser, please let us know about it,
um or if you have any other thoughts to share
with us, You can find us blew the Mind at
how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out
(33:01):
our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join how
staf Work staff as we explore the most promising and
perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. All Right,
we were just talking about this. Everyone has this memory
or generally more than one, mary that like some sort
of embarrassment from the past and enters your mind. And
(00:27):
what happens. You just curl up in a fetal position
because it's such an awful memory and you just think,
why why I was just sitting here, I was just
doing the laundry, and then you just struck out of
nowhere and this memory. And I won't describe it because
I don't know. It's awful and embarrassing. Yeah, it haunts
me year after year. Yeah, I don't happen to me.
(00:48):
I'll think of like something that I said it was
just really stupid once. Um. Generally not on on this podcast,
you know, but but something to see. I think of
the things I say on this podcast and not crimming time,
but you know it, Okay, It'll enter my mind and
I'll find myself having to um kind of like do
a la la la la la, I can't hear you
kind of a thing. We're all we're all combat it
(01:09):
with just like a really nonsense phrase like and then
he turned into a goat. Like that used to be
a staple where I would think of something something embarrassing
in the past, and it would be like, and then
he turned into a goat, and then he turned into
a goat, and that would like the image of something
turning into a goat would help rid myself of of
self stabbing with that memory. Well, not only is that
(01:30):
a tip, but a little insight into the mind of
Robert Lamb. Goat turn absolutely good. I'm richly amused by them.
I see that. But yeah, this this is the problem,
and I think that some people would willingly undergo their
memories or specific memories being erased if they could. Yeah, yeah,
what if you could go in and say, all right,
instead of just having to go through this moment where
(01:51):
I drop into a fetal position or have to think
something stupid to combat something stupid, or then, how what
if I could just go in and have it removed,
Go into the doc and say, hey, I've got this
memory I want removed, and they're like, all right, well
think about it for a second. All right, I'm thinking
about it. Now and then whap is that it's very possible. Yeah,
it's very possible. And there this is something that came
(02:12):
up when when we were attending the World Science Festival
in New York, I attended a panel of about the
Unbearable Lightness of memory. And there it was just like
one of these sessions where they had had a number
of these guys, um and and women that were just
experts in the field of memory and are just on
the cutting edge of of seeing you know, of of
(02:33):
our understanding of memory and our exploitation of that understanding.
And so it was a very mind blowing a couple
of hours. And this is a topic that came up
and that these guys were saying, Yeah, within our lifetime.
Some were saying, within the next ten years, we will
have the technology to go in and selectively erase memories,
because we are doing it on rats currently, um, you know,
(02:55):
in some cases. So obviously that technology is going to
find its way into the mainstream. It is just a
matter of how and when and um, will we be
willing to undergo and why would we which we're going
to talk about today, but we're going to talk a
little bit more specifically about memories before we go into that,
and we are going to talk about technology that exists
now to wipe the memory in a clean fashion, not
(03:18):
in a brain damage way, but in a rat because
we all know that you can erase memories by damaging
the brain. But that's that's kind of dumb. That's like
saying you can erase an ink by burning the paper.
That's not really erasing the baby out with the bath water,
right right, So we'll get into some of that as well.
But yeah, first we need to talk about exactly what
memory is, um, which is one of the big questions
(03:42):
that's again it's when we're continuing to answer and one
that we've been asking as long as we've had memory,
as long as we've had had intelligence among the species. Well, well,
let's lay down some nuts and bolts because this is
going to be important in some of the discussions that
we UM have later on about actually how we how
we would erase a specific memory. UM. So, what is
(04:03):
happening when you're making a memory? Basically, you have nerve
cells that are communicating by sending electrical signals which trigger
the release of chemicals across tying gaps called synapses. When
these are the neural junctions, and then as one cell
speaks to another, chemical changes at the synapse make it
easier for the signal to pass. Okay, so this is important.
If only a few signals are sent, this transforment transformation
(04:26):
among a network of cells is temporary, resulting in short
term memory. But if the signals keep coming through changes
that the most active snaps has become permanent and they
create long term memories. It is literally an anatomical change
to your brain. So it's I mean, it was just
if you look at it this way, different day, different brain. Yeah,
I was. I was really fascinated by that viewpoint, the
(04:49):
idea that that at the addition of a permanent memory
is the an anatomical difference in the brain. Because we
you know, we've talked about before this whole question of
like trying to figure out who and what we are
and the brains and ability to perceive itself, even if
we are completely atheistic in our in our viewpoints, even
if we're just the most scientific, hard boiled I don't
(05:10):
believe in ghosts kind of guy, you or goal I'm
I'm using guy in the non gender specific I know
you are, but but yeah, even if you just you know,
you don't believe in any of this nonsense, you still
can fall into this trap of of sort of thinking
of yourself is this non corporeal thing that just happens
(05:32):
during the bodies and we end up we end up
not thinking about ourselves our memory as a physical manifestation. Yeah,
And it is interesting to you to think of how
we regard ourselves mainly by what memories are are we
what shapes us? Our idea of ourselves is composed of memories,
right right? Um, So knowing that memory making is really
(05:55):
very a fragile process and um, and not as straight
forward as straightforward as we thought, really sort of is
a game changer and how we perceive ourselves and and
just it's amazing to think that we are constructing this
reality out of a really flawed process, right, because flawed
(06:15):
in a sense. But but basically it comes down to
the way we used to think about let's let's talk
about that because because ultimately the way it works is
the way it works, and it works that way due
to um, you know, rigorous evolution, uh, and it and
it is important that it works the way it works.
But the way you're not not going to evolution. I'm
just saying that it's not as ironclad as and we thought.
(06:37):
Our memories are ephemeral little things. Yes, and so just
as an example, the old way of looking at how
how memories worked, want a little something like this, you
would learn something, UM, let's say you would learn that. UM.
Let's let's think about what's the what's the most recent
thing you learned about cicada's and their lifespan? Okay, well
(06:59):
let's say you, um, you learned that cicadas um, some
species of cicadas uh will are a thirteen year lifecycle
where they go to ground for thirteen years. All right,
So you learn that, all right, and then you store
it and then when you go to retrieve it, you
retrieve it. So it's like I take the fact, I
put it in the storage drawer the brain, and then
(07:21):
I retrieve it. And there's there's no update process going
on here. This is the old model. And then if
you were to say then you were suddenly to learn, oh,
well there's thirteen and seventeen here. That's an addition, that's
an update, but there's not really an update process going on.
It's just like, oh, I'll store that memory too, well,
the the current view is the reconsolidation view, and this
(07:43):
is this is a little more complicated, and this is
this is how it would go. You'll learn the fact, right, okay,
cicadas years, you store the fact, all right, and then
you retrieve the fact. But when you retrieve the fact, uh,
it goes through up date, reconsolidation, and then it's stored again.
So the idea is that every time we reach into
(08:06):
the storage center of our brain and retrieve something, be
it a little fact about Cicada's or our family history
or something about ourselves, we retrieve it and we update
it and then we put it back. So it's it's
ever changing. There's no such thing as this memory. Like
the memories are not set in stone. They are um there.
(08:27):
They are these continued things that alter every time we
touch it. It's kind of like if it we're a
police case. You know, they're always talking about like the
chain of um, not the chain of command. What is
it with evidence? Uh, it's like a chain of possession
or something. I'll give a chain of obsession. Yeah, one
of our more crime oriented or police work oriented of
yours will correctus on this, but but yeah, they're very
concerned with with who has the control of the evidence
(08:50):
at any given moment, because they could flowt they could
they could get fingerprints on it or tamper with it
in some uh some way, shape or form. So if
you look at memory, like that memory, every time you
get it out, somebody's getting their paws on it. I
mean you're getting your paws on it. That you're adding
new information to it, and some of that new information
and you add may not be good information, well right, right,
(09:11):
And when you're sharing that information, you're corroborating some of
your information, right, and you're adding to it, and you
know you've got the whole human experience sort of coming
in and coloring that experience that memory, that data. Yeah,
Like here's an example. Let's see you have She's a
who's a childhood friend of yours, Cheryl. All right, Let's
(09:32):
say you when you first meet Cheryl and you're your
friends with Cheryl and uh, and then you you go
out roller skating and you fall down and then you're
trying to go backwards again fancy, and then later on, um,
you have a falling out with Cheryl and you begin
to see think of Cheryl as um your enemy Okay, Yeah,
(09:55):
so then you could conceivably retrieve that memory of you
falling down pushed me exactly. You add in this new
information where Cheryl is the great adversary, and and now
the memory is restored in a slightly different form. Now
this isn't necessarily a false memory then, has it or
a cover memory? No? No, but it's potentially flawed. It's
(10:15):
also potentially more accurate. Who knows, maybe Cheryl did push you,
but it's but it's changing. What I thought was really
interesting is how much emotion can really determine what sort
of memory you get out of an experience. And you
had a really interesting um example from the panel that
had to do with nine eleven. Right, Yeah, these uh,
you know, neuroscientists are are kind of awesome, and they're
(10:37):
always I mean, you can you can say that they're
a little too focused on their work in this particular example,
but but I think it's it's very telling. Nine eleven occurs,
you know, tragic, horrible day for anyone involved. But these
guys were instantly thinking, all right, this is a great example.
This is a great opportunity for us to test how
our memory reacts with traumatic situations. Because every because anybody
(11:00):
you can ask that question, you know, it's like what
were you doing on nine eleven? Or where were you
when Kennedy was shot? For older members of the audience,
you know, there would be some sort of people always
have really specific answers. I was in my living room,
and uh, it's not necessarily accurate, right, Yeah, they did
this study where they were they were act They were
checking everybody's memory, doing test on it to see how
(11:21):
accurate their memory was of their of their like what
they were wearing, what they were eating for breakfast on
nine eleven versus other times, and uh, and there was
there was actually less accuracy for nine eleven. And it's
because there's less less activity uh in the in the
pair of hippocampus, which is involved in the details, and
(11:44):
it's um and it ends up being more of an
emotional response. Amygdala is really active in this case, right,
The amigdeala is the emotional seat, and that's where all
the activity is of when forming these these traumatic memories,
right where it's the the detail or did uh hi.
Hippocampus is taking a back seat to that, and so
the pair of hippocampus is noting would normally note like
(12:07):
what you were wearing, what time it was, those sort
of details. But the interesting thing is people were so
sure about it, like they're like, I was totally wearing
a green shirt and eating fruit loops and that was
that was it. I have this clean memory, and uh,
it's we basically think it is an evolutionary response, Like
it's not just like some sort of flaw. It's because
if you're in a situation where it maybe life or death,
(12:28):
you may need to run for your life, you may
need to make some very quick decisions in order to
survive or do the right thing, your brain basically doesn't
want you to care about the details. So because it's
in the fear response, right right, it's it's more reacted
like you got to do something, dude, don't worry what
your fruit loops are doing or what your shirt you
were wearing, and and so you're sure about it because
(12:49):
it's because it's the sort of the trick of the memory,
so that you're not concerned with it. Yeah, okay, that
makes sense. And it also makes sense that people have
are so sure about it because it was a very
prominent at emotional experience, right, so it meant so much
to them that they felt like, well, of course I
was wearing this short and of course I remember every
detail because that's how it felt to me rather than
(13:12):
what it actually was. But why would we need to
to erase the memory? Right? Yeah, I mean, we actually
have some very good reasons why someone would want to
undergo this process, and we'll get to that right at
its quick break. This podcast is brought to you by Intel,
the sponsors of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel,
(13:32):
we believe curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join
us at curiosity dot com and explore the answers to
life's questions and we're back. Yeah. It's kind of a
trickier question than than it may seem on the surface,
because even when bad things happen to us, um, they
(13:52):
become traumatic memories a lot of the times because we
need to be able to avoid those situations in the future.
We need to or just embarrassing memory. You know, it's
like it was really embarrassing the time, uh you know,
you got up and uh you know, it made some
faux pad a meeting or something, and so you are
remembering that it stings in your memory, but you're not
making that same faux pas every time you go into
(14:13):
the sub meeting, you know. So, yeah, it plays an
important role. It does. You're right, and even something is something.
I was just thinking about a friend of mine who
went to a wedding and she decided not to wear
any undy's but she had on a little other contraption
and which I won't get too specific, because you know,
we're a clean podcast here, But she was dancing in
her dress, got caught up, and she moved the world,
(14:36):
and you know, for the rest of her life she's thinking,
always were underwear with this contraption always where, you know.
I mean, it's important, right, And that's kind of a
low brow example, but still, yeah. I mean the movie
that I'm sure everyone instantly thought of when they saw
this podcast, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mine. I mean,
the whole message of that is this is where the
(14:57):
end of they go to erase this painful breakup so
they and move on with their lives. But in erasing
the painful breakup, they end up falling in love with
each other. In the real world, you'd end up not
learning from their mistakes, right, right, she would underwear less
mooning people for first of her life. And she didn't
feel ashamefaced about it. Um. Still, if it starts interfering
with your life, that's where it becomes an issue. Okay,
So if it became an anxiety disorder, she decided not
(15:19):
to leave her house or to ever, you know, she
can even look at a pair of underwear or anything else. Um,
that would be really traumatic. Right. And and of course
on a more serious note, you see this a lot
with people coming back from more with PTSD, and it's
it's a it's a horrible disorder. And the reason is
because you are re experiencing the event again and again
(15:42):
over and over. So you might want to you know,
undergo some sort of uh process to alleviate that if
you could. Yeah, especially when the response that it and
that it that it brings up is not going to
be a helpful one. Like if you're just totally freezing, uh,
you know, every time a milk carton drops in the
in the grocery store, or if you're you're becoming super
(16:04):
defensive and ready to you know, karate drop something every
time there's a loud noise, that's not helpful, right, Same
thing with phobias in the in the same sense where
if you have an extreme irrational fear and you know
it's it's shuddering you in your house then and in
every time that you think of a memory and you
then augment it with this phobia, and then you predict
the future thinking, oh, if I leave my house, this
(16:26):
is going to happen. UM, then you would probably want
to try to remediate that if it would be good
to be able to do zap or up that memory
as well, discussed here in just about Yeah we will
um nice pun by the way. Uh. But then there's
also something called residual neuropathic pain, which is a complex
chronic pain state that's usually accompanied by tissue injury. And
(16:48):
you can see this sometimes in spinal cord injuries or
patients undergoing chemotherapy or people with diabetes UM. And that's
when the damage nerve fibers sent incorrect signals to other
pain centers. And you actually at me a really cool
article about UM. Actually I think it was a blog
post from the World Science Festival on pain and memory
(17:08):
in the spinal cord and how your spinal cord is
actually tagging that pain UM with the memory and calling
it up. And they used an example of saying, hey,
you can't you slam your your hand on the door,
and then for days afterwards, the neurons in your spine
carry the pain signals more easily from your hand to
your brain, and as a result, your hand feels more
(17:29):
sensitive and even the lightest touch will trigger an unpleasant reaction.
Two groups of scientists have found that one special molecule
p mk zeta, which we'll talk about, underlies both processes,
and it helps to store memories in our brains and
it sensitizes neurons in our spines after a painful experience.
So much of this is related to pain, memory and
(17:49):
so on and so forth. Yeah, and it's going about
in these cases, it's going above and beyond the simple
of you know, importance of pain, which is, hey, don't
do that because it's damaging your tissue, don't or be careful,
there's something wrong with your leg. It's it's it's it's
beyond that and it needs to be addressed. Right yeah.
So okay, let's say you have a memory you want
to race. You're going to go to a pro. What
(18:11):
are your options here? Well, one option, of course, would
be cortisol curving drugs, right, yes, yes, which this was
some really interesting to me. There are thirty three university
students who watched a film to picking a granddaughter helping
her grandfather make a birdhouse. This is all related to
the cortisol, which is a stress hormone, by the way,
(18:32):
and in the film she accidentally gets her hand caught
in the saw and yeah, and so of course these
thirty three university students are sitting there in an emotional distress.
And even though the film had a nice happy ending
and her her hand was back on um, you know,
people were a little bit flamm x by it. So
what researchers did after putting them through all this this
(18:54):
dress is they collected saliva to measure cortisol again, that
stress hormone. And then three days later, this is the
really trippy thing about this, the volunteers were brought back
to the lab and some were given a placebo, while
the rest were given one of two doses of a
drug that knocks back the amount of cortisol that courses
through your body. And then they were asked to recall
(19:16):
the video presentations and lo and behold the people who
were on the higher dose of the inhibitor for the cortisol.
The harder it was for them to remember anything at all.
And they found this even four days later, Uh, the
same thing when they administered the cortisol, This memory just
kept fading and fading as opposed to the control group
who had no cortisol, Which is really I think it's
(19:40):
cool because you know, I have learned that cortisol, if
you if you're if you have a lot of anxiety
or if um, you know you're real stressed throughout the
day in your cortisol levels peak can really mess with
your body. In fact, is it's a big cause for
people um not able to sleep or having bouts of
insomnia to because it really throws your body off. Um.
(20:02):
And if anybody's interested in reading more about that. The
study was published in the August issue of Journal of
Clinical end of Chronology and met about metabolism cool. Well,
the other really fascinating option and this is the one
that really they spent a lot of time within this
uh the World Science Festival and uh and it was
really like the reason I was like, oh, we gotta
do a podcast about this is this substance called ZIP
(20:24):
that they've developed. And one of the key guys involved
in this is Todd Sacktor, who was at the World
Science Festival to talk about this really amusic We like
do we I don't know. We should never do that,
um because he will come at us with the ZIP stuff.
That's right, Mr Sector never mind. Yeah, ZIP is basically
(20:46):
in two thousand six, his team was able to use
ZIP to erase the memories in the brains of rats
and by neutralizing this p k M zeta that we
were mentioning earlier, which again it's like the glue from him.
That's right. So when when we were talking about the
all those uh memories really forming at the most active
(21:07):
synastic synactic points, it's that p mk data that is
the glue that is helping to solidify that memory. So
that's important in this ZIP process. Yeah, they injected and
they were testing it. They had like this carousel with
like with one area of like this just this round area.
They called it a carousel, but it's but one section
of it was electrocuted. So the rat is they put
it in and the rat eventually learns where not to
(21:29):
step because we'll get a shock. Then they inject ZIP
into the hippocampus and it just it cleans out even
very strong memories uh, you know, ones that have been
around for quite a while and suddenly the rat doesn't
know where not to step it. It basically they there
are different types of memories, and I should have mentioned
this earlier, I guess, but um, you know, we have
(21:50):
we have episodic memory for events, we have semantic memory
for facts. We have conditioning memories, which is like the
whole Pavlov's dog thing where you know, you hear a
dent dog, here's a bell and start salvating because they
thinks he's gonna get food. And then you have these
priming memories, which are which involves the unconscious activation of memory,
um kind of reminders. So ZIP basically will knock out
(22:13):
everything but priming. And it's pretty impressive. Yeah, I mean
it's impressive. It's scary. It's also uh it could be
a huge help to people if used in the right way. Right. Yeah,
And the really important thing here, like like I mentioned earlier,
is that this is not brain damage. In in sactor's
own words, it basically it doesn't hurt the brain. It
(22:34):
just restores it to factory settings. Yeah. I know, but
that's still kind of creepy. It is, it is creepy.
I mean, no, no one has used this on a human. Um,
it's really important to note them that we know of,
I guess. I mean, who knows what's going on out
there in the world, But as far as I know,
it's never been used on humans. Um, if it were
(22:55):
the like I said that, the priming memories still be there,
the sort of hind mine stuff would be there, it
would't mess with any of that. But but yeah, it's
it's it's it's kind of like the Bourne identity, except
you wouldn't be able to do karate like that would
be that would be gone. Um, you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah,
you'd have to relearn karate. Yeah, Okay, I don't know,
(23:16):
I'm thinking about it. It's just crazy to think about, like,
like what would that be like suddenly have that have
the ZIP put into your brain and then it's just
it just clears it out. Well. I mean, on the
one hand, um, and this was posted on Facebook not
too long ago. Uh, memory is sort of becoming a
very different thing for us than it used to be
thanks to the Internet. Right, It's it's not really as important.
(23:38):
It certainly as important, right, but but for some types
of things, stuff fac like learning karate. You could probably
go and watch a video if you need it to,
you know, I mean the Internet is very much an
external memory for us um and so rebuilding your your
brain or your memory. I guess on the flip side
of this, you've got their racing and then you've got
(23:59):
the Hey, how could I make it stronger? How could
I access memories? You could certainly even do that through
the breadcrumb trail of your social life on the Internet. Right,
That would be interested, That would make for an I
don't know if it would make for an interesting movie,
but I can just imagine somebody like having to rediscover
what their life was by going going into into their
Internet accounts and yeah, what if you were horrified, which
(24:22):
I can I cannot believe I wrote that, or you
know who, who are these people? Or wow, that person
is awesome. Well, there's a there's a number of eco
novel um and I forget the name of it off hand.
It's the it's uh, not his most recent one that
deals with like the Bridges of Prague or something, which
I don't think is out in English yet, but the
one proceeding that has to do with someone who loses
(24:43):
their memory and I think they reclaim it by looking
at like going and looking at the things they read
in comic books and whatnot. But but again I haven't
read that one yet. Yeah. Well, and then again on
the flip side that p mks data can actually be
used to strengthen memories too. That's another thing that they discovered.
They were able to put the more pkm zeta into
(25:04):
a Rats brain and its memory would improve. And also
it means ZIP is one of these things where no
one is saying, like, we got this thing called ZIP,
let's figure out things to use it for, and let's
star using it on people and more rats. Uh No.
But but the process going on there tells us a
lot about what's going on with memory. And we can
learn a lot from the from these experiments involving ZIP
and Rats. Well, and I always I'm interested in an
(25:27):
experiment when when something unintentional and unintentional happens and it's
a big breakthrough, like Okay, here's p mk zeta, let's
let's try to zap it. Oh, by the way, we
could also um instead of trying to lessen the amount
of pichemist zeta, we could also bolster the memory and
make it even better by injecting much more of this. Yeah. Now,
(25:48):
I mentioned earlier the the the whole retrieval and reconsolidation process,
and there there's a line of thinking that this may
be the key to erasing a memory, in that we
recall the memory, we we take it out of the
storage area, and we have it, and then we change
it and we put it back. It's and it's reconsolidated.
The new information is reconsolidated into it. And this again,
(26:08):
this is not this is not a cheapening of anything.
This is not a this is not a flaw in
the grand design. It's like, by necessity, we live in
a world, as we said before, of multiple changing objects
and symbols. You need to be able to navigate this world,
so you need a brain that can update, you know.
It's like it's like if you if you're like me
(26:30):
and you haven't bothered to plug your GPS system for
your car into a computer since you bought it, Like
roads are changing and and you occasionally encounter a new
road and uh, and the device is like, I don't
know where you are. You're in the middle of a field.
I guess our brains don't need to work like that
we need to be able to update with new information
from the office. When yeah, it's like that. So but
(26:54):
they think that when we when are when during this
retrieval phase, the memory may be vulnerable to so elective deletion.
The idea of being it's kind of like like, all right,
let's wait, let's watch what the brain's doing. All right,
he's getting the memory out of the drawer. He hasn't
in his hands, and then bam, shatter it and then
it's gone. Okay. So every time you take the memory
out and you take it for a walk, so to speak,
(27:17):
you're adding to it, but you're also taking away, right
and and in that moment, they think, during that reconsolidation process,
if we can develop a way to to to target specifically,
that would be that this would be how you would
do it, like and it would probably be a situation
where you would have to think about the memory where
they would be like, all right, start thinking about that
memory of such and such and and only think about it.
(27:38):
But even that is fraught with peril because how do
you know that that's the version of the of the
memory that you're trying to You know what I'm saying.
If each time you take it out, and the reality
of that memory becomes even more distorted. How do you
know if that's the point at which you want to
delete that memory, or at least that portion of it. Well,
because you don't really have any control about what you're
determining the memory to be. Come, I don't know, a
(28:00):
little more hot water because the baths too cold, a
little more cold, a lot of because the baths too hot.
But yeah, and then eventually the bath is overflowing. But
and this is probably why this is not going to
come online anytime soon for humans, right or The other
thing that I think about two is kind of like
a Ghostbuster situation. Do you remember the end of Ghostbusters?
But the second one? Not the second one goes my favorite,
(28:21):
and don't don't judge, I actually like the second one
as well. I'm not one of those Ghostbusters two haters.
But but Ghostbusters one at the end of it party
in the street, well no, no, before that, when Gooser
appears as the supermodel, the pink supermodel on the top
of the building, all right, and they blast Goeser, but
Ghoes is not dead, and Ghoser says, all right, I'm
(28:43):
going to destroy the world. But the next thing you
think about is the form I'm going to take. That's
going to be the form of the destructor. So everyone's like,
don't think of anything, don't think of the thing, don't
give this monster anything to me. And then dan Ackroyd's
character thinks of the step of marshmallow Man like ends
up trying to think of something in scent, and that
becomes the form of the destructor. So in this situation,
(29:04):
this hypothetical but probable future situation where someone is brought
into and they have to think of the their traumatic memory,
the memory they want to race, like, think of that breakup,
think of that time that um that you were covered
in chocolate as a child and a goat lift you like,
think of that and goat again. Think of that memory
and we'll erase it. And then you're like thinking over
like goat looking at me, goat looking at me. And
(29:25):
then you're like, did a goat really? You know? But
I saw a terrified child at a petting zoo once
that had covered like one of these awful kids that
had like had cut chocolate all over, hitting him or
herself and was just acting out and then walked into
the petting zoo where the goats were, and this like
enormously pregnant goat was like, oh man, that's what I
(29:46):
wanted exactly, And so the kids just freaking out, like
the goat is scaring to give me, and I was,
I was ritually amused. But that was probably traumatic with
the kid. But I just want to make that distinction
that you were not a chocolate covered child. No, no, no,
And I was just I was just witnessing it. But anyway,
I can imagine somebody, you know, having to think of this,
this traumatic memory, and then for a second they screw
up and they think of something favorable from their past.
(30:08):
They think of like their mom's uh, you know, apple pie,
or they think of you know, fishing with dad or something,
or or they they or something like their own phone
number or something important, and then zip, that one gets
destroyed by accident, and you're still stuck with the one
you wanted to get rid of, right, and you're like, great, thanks,
that was a great valuable memory. And now my friend
(30:28):
is still sick with the memory of dance around moon
and everybody. Yeah, and she no longer remembers her mom's name. Yeah, yeah, bum, Well,
I want to leave you with this quote, Um, that
I thought was really interesting. And uh, this is from
Douglas Fields, who's a neuroscientist, and he talks about how
(30:49):
important it is that we do forget things. Um, so
I know we've talked about memory retrieval, strengthening memories, forgetting them.
He says, like a midas cursed by how think his
wish granted that everything he touched would turn to gold.
Permanent retention of memories could be debilitating. This is because
forgetting it's just as important for learning as memory. Just
(31:09):
as you have talked about, bad habits could not be overcome,
skills would not be improved, Information such as as an
old address or phone number could not be updated, and
traumatic events would never fade from the horror that overwhelms
a person immediately after the trauma exactly. So it is
it is important to scrub the mind. Yeah, and I
will leave everyone with this quote because, Um, you can't
(31:32):
help but think of all the ways that something like
ZIP could be misused, just even today. Someone could use
ZIP on somebody after like robbing a bank, so they
wouldn't remember the details, or it could be used in
various espenage situations at the corporate as well. At the
World Science Festival. They asked Taught Sactride has has the
as they said, has the Pentagon contacted you? And he
(31:54):
todd Sacktric thinks for a second. He says, not that
I recall. Oh, I like it up. Yeah, because that
really leaves you hang in Yeah yeah, oh boys, t Sack,
he's wildy. Yeah. Of course if he'd really they'd really
use zip on in his response would have been something like,
who are all you people? What am I doing? Yeah? So, hey,
(32:15):
if you have any cool thoughts on this particular topic
and have or have questions about memory, because I'm hoping
to do at least one more stemming from this, uh,
this particular World Science Festival lecture, let us know. You
can find us on Facebook and Twitter. We are Blow
the Mind on both of those and we're always updating
those seeds with different stuff on each feed. Um. You know,
(32:36):
links to lots of cool articles, lots of interesting videos,
and of course in our own blog posts and podcast topics. Yeah,
and if you have ever successfully, like d I wide
your own memory eraser, please let us know about it,
um or if you have any other thoughts to share
with us, You can find us blew the Mind at
how stuff works dot com. Be sure to check out
(33:01):
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