March 14, 2013 • 21 mins
Can science give us the wings we've always envied in birds? Can plastic surgery elevate us to a higher human form? In this episode, Robert and Julie discuss Joseph Rosen's posthuman philosophy and ponder what we'd have to do to transform arms into wings.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm truly decklass Julie
who is not dreamed of either having wings themselves or
just dreams of winged humanoids flying about. I mean, it's
(00:24):
the stuff of just ancient myth, the stuff of fantasy,
the stuff of religion, the stuff of of art. It's
there's something just irresistible about the idea of a human
with the wings of a bird, or even the wings
of a bat. Yeah. The desire to fly, I think
is pretty universal. Even Dorothy from oz right somewhere of
the rainbow, bluebirds fly, birds fly over the rainbow? Why then,
(00:48):
oh why can't I Yeah, we're just singing the rest, Okay,
But yeah, one example that always comes to my mind.
I mean, there are a lot of a iconic ones. Obviously,
the myth of Icarus and Datalus is big. The idea
that you know, they built these wings and then they
fly too close to the sun and then they plummet.
It's just a fantastic metaphor for so much in human endeavor,
(01:11):
human technology, um humans reaching to achieve things that they
were not necessarily biologically gifted with, but via their intelligence,
are in a sense genetically gifted with. I also think
back to a book called Goodbye to All That by
Robert Graves, British author who famously wrote I Claudius Um.
That's probably what he's most known for, But this was
(01:32):
his biography and he was talking about his um, his
service in World War One. There's a bit about mountain
climbing in that as well, because he was one of
these just really adventurous dudes. He'd go out with his
his pals and they would scale these these towering cliffs.
And there was one point where he's talking about, you know,
clinging to the side of this this rock face. Uh,
you know, pretty to someone like me, who is not
(01:53):
a mountain climber and will never mountain climb, terrifying idea,
just to imagine myself clinging to the side of a
mountain face. Uh. But he was unfazed. But he was
an adventuest dude, had bravery and just a natural inclination
for this kind of thing. But one time he said,
they're scaling, they're they're a little tired clinging to the side,
and a bird like sort of flow flies by, but
(02:14):
given the altitude and the wind, kind of floats out
there to the side, and and he entered the house
just so unnerving. The idea that it was like the
bird was was coaxing him into letting go, as if
there was another way, as if he could fly, which
which also gets into these weird impulses we sometimes have
of almost like self destructive impulses. The the idea that, oh,
(02:36):
if I get too close to the edge of the building,
I might jump off, I was to say, because I
have that. So even if I meant to say, like
a fairly like simple structure like a mall on the
second floor, I don't want to go to the edge
because I feel as if I'm going to plunge off.
So it's kind of interesting that there's this idea of him,
you know, clinging to the side and this bird short
(02:56):
of mocking him to the limits of his own morphology.
Hey dude, you're never going to have wings. You might
consure this cool that you can you know, rock climb
up here, but you know, let me just buzz around
you and remind you of this. Yeah, it's like, in
a sense, we see the birds flying and we we
inded it, and we feel to a certain extent like
it's our birthright because vast empty air, vast heights are
(03:19):
terrifying because we know that that's a limitation to us.
We know that those are those are heights that we
cannot really ascend to. Yes, we there, you know. We
we have airplanes at our disposal. We have various uh
methods of flight and gliding and skydiving and everything, but
they're all kind of cheap imitations of the natural biological
gifts of a bird. That's right, We're greedy. We want
(03:40):
it for ourselves. It's not enough that we have created
flight in the form of jets and planes and uh,
you know, various other modes of transportation. So the question,
and the question for this podcast is is it would
it be possible? Is it really possible that we could
somehow create wings for ourselves? Um? And I'm not talking
(04:02):
just like strapping on some wings, because there are wingsuits
which are phenomenal. There's actually an article on them on
how stuff works dot com that I wrote how wingsuits
work and it's phenomenal technology and the people who use
them are insane and also highly skilled. Um. But yeah,
could we actually have biological wings that are a part
of us, that are an extension of us. Right, could
(04:23):
we gain our bodies in our minds in order to
actually have this be a part of our own morphology?
And why not? Right, because we've talked about this, this
is this is not so crazy. I mean, it's absolutely
out there. But there are so many different ways that
we have augmented our reality in our physicality that uh,
no doubt one day this could be a possibility. Yeah,
(04:44):
I mean, like you said, there's so many things we
do to our bodies. Anyway, we went into this, We've
got into this a number of times. We talked about
post humanism quite a bit, and and cybernetics. We did
an episode called the Werewolf Principle Um, which probably wasn't
the best title in the world because it doesn't have
anything to do with or wolves. It's about that. It's
a has to do with a sci fi story I
was reading at the time, But the idea that we
(05:05):
change our but potentially we change our bodies in order
to explore space and to explore our the world instead
of attempting to bring a portion of our atmosphere in
our environment with us. Uh and and and our limitations
with us we instead alter ourselves, and certainly we make
a lot of augmentations to ourselves anyway, So many things
(05:25):
such as glasses, contacts, various biomedical equipment that is added
to the human body. We're making these changes anyway for
things that are generally thought of as necessary. Um. And
then we also make changes that are cosmetic in nature.
But what about wings? Well, yeah, and in order to
actually really get to the meat of this conversation, we
(05:45):
have to bring up Dr Joseph Rosen. He is a
Dartmouth plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon. And it's um, I
think would be pretty mild just to say that he's
a futurist. Yeah, and he's definitely a UTRA, is definitely
a post humanist in a he's he's one of these
amazing individuals that if you look him up, you'll find
(06:07):
various articles about his work. Um. But in particular, there
was a two thousand and one UM interview slash profile
in Harper's magazine by Lawrence Slater. Highly recommend anyone read
who's fascinated by this topic. It was called Dr Dayalus.
It's an excellent article. Actually, the way that it was
written reminded me of Mary Rich in the way that
(06:27):
she approaches her material, so it is well worth checking out.
So with Rosen, here's the thing. He is, he's totally
steeped in his profession and he takes on something like
five hundred patients a year to do mostly reconstructive surgery,
but some plastic surgery as well. I mean, this is
someone he was an absolute expert in his field. He is, uh,
(06:50):
he steeped in the practicalities of it, but he was
also a big thinker. Yeah, he's a plastic surgeon, but
but not a mirror cosmetic surgeon. And the article in
question went into sort of around the turn of the
millennium where plastic surgery stood about the idea that it's
sort of sort of in this place where it's often
looked down on um by people outside of the medical profession,
(07:14):
and sometimes within the medical profession, may be seen as
as a as a lesser medical practice, which of course
is is not not the case when you look at
the the the non cosmetic applications. When you're looking at
people who have undergone serious injury, particularly facial injuries for instance,
and finding ways to correct that and and bring a
certain amount of normalcy back to that person's life. When
(07:37):
you look at cleft palate and cleft lip reconstruction. Yeah,
I mean there's there's a lot that goes on in
plastic surgery that is not breast jobs. But but that
tends to be sort of the the easy association that
people make when you just hear plastic surgeon on TV. Oh,
she went to the plastic surgeon's office. That means she
had something superficial and unnecessary done. But plastic surgery is
(07:59):
bigger than that, much bigger. And uh, you know, as
you had said that he has he's worked on reconstructing
faces um when died warrior causes. Right, So we're talking
about catastrophic poly trauma. So if you're in uh, if
you're a soldier and you have undergone this trauma, what
that means is that you have so many various problems
(08:20):
going on um that you can't necessarily, uh find a
solution to all of those injuries. But what Dr Rosen
can do is he can fashion a new knows um,
but he can't restore that soldier's sense of smell. He
can at least give some sort of normalcy back to
that person. So that's a lot of work that he
does there. Um. He also is working on healthcare reform.
(08:41):
This is really interesting. This isn't the form of cybercare.
He argues that our hospital system is just uh, you know,
an outgrowth of the Civil War. In other words, it
was set up to administer to a huge amount of
massive casualties. And he's saying that that's just not the
way that the world works today. And he is helping
to revamp the national healthcare system of Vietnam using cellphones
(09:03):
and laptops to link clinics, hospitals, and rural physicians. So
this guy is a renaissance man. And like I said,
he's a big thinker, which is extended over to his
ideas about what we can do in terms of improving
not just augmenting, i should say, but really heightening our
senses as a human being, in augmenting our experiences as
(09:27):
a human being. Yeah, he's an amazing thinker. And then
he really use the cliche, you know, thinks outside the box.
He is the he's a bit of a rebel. He's
he's questioning authority and questioning sort of normal approaches to
things all the time. And you see that with with
with various gifted minds out there. You know, it's it's
not merely that they work really hard and are just
(09:50):
geniuses within the confines of their profession, within the confines
of their their role in society, but they actually think
beyond the typical constraint. It's true. Like, for instance, he
says that a salamander can regenerate in arm in forty
two days, So he says, somewhere in your own genome
that ability still exists. He says, why can't we go
ahead and find that figure that out so that we
(10:13):
can regenerate a whole limb for ourselves. And he says,
we can do it. It's just a matter of you know,
twenty to fifty years to coming up with that. Um. So,
you know, he also looks at soldiers again who have
had those catastrophic poly traumas, and he says, why can't
we use a whole body pro thesis, like you know
that's made out of exoskeleton. Um. You know, obviously cost
(10:36):
as a factor in perception because it's not too it's
not too normal. They see someone trapesing through a hallway,
who's you know, in case in exo skeleton, But he's
got these ideas of how to make it work for
humans and how to, as I said, augment the experiences
for people and make it better. Yeah, he wants to
make it better. He wants to fix it. You see
that both in in healthcare reform, as you mentioned, but
(10:57):
also but more importantly, in the human body. There's a
great quote from that article that I think really sums
up a lot about Rosen's outlook on not just plastic
surgery but life. He says, you know, I'm really proud
of that face. And he's talking about some facial reconstruction
that he performed on an individual who lost a lot
of it to cancer. Because I'm really proud of that face.
I didn't follow any protocol. There's no textbook to tell
(11:19):
you how to fashion a face eaten away by cancer.
Plastic surgery is the intersection of art and science. It's
the intersection of the surgeon's imagination with human flesh, and
human flesh is infinitely malleable. People say cosmetic surgery is
frivolous boobs and noses, but it's so much more than that.
The body is a conduit for the soul, at least
historically speaking, When you change what you look like, you
(11:41):
change who you are so well, and it doesn't That
kind of speak to a lot of what we've talked
about in the podcast in terms of studies having to
do with psychology the whole, like you fit, you know,
fake it till you make it, or you know, if
you assume a powerful posture, then your body responds physiological way.
So you know, a lot of what he's saying is
(12:03):
is there's a truth there that if you can change
yourself in that way, then certainly physically and mentally, things
will follow. Okay, so let's get into some of his
really fun post humanist dreams for the human body. Yeah,
because he again he's all about making the changes necessary,
arguably necessary in some cases to make us better beings.
(12:25):
For instance, calcular implants, uh, new rods for the eyes
to give a super binocular vision. Um soldier implants like
this was great, a nose flashlight because you know your
nose is just there. You know it's important for breathing.
But you know optics, optic technology grow smaller and smaller.
Why not have a light up there? Imagine you sort
(12:48):
of you know, you click one nostril and then a
light shines out the other nose and you it's perfect
for reading. It's a great idea. Really, now I can
just see eight year old really having fun with that
when they blow their nose. Yeah, yeah, like light flashes,
like really bright light every time you sneeze. But it's
stuff like that, like when you say it, like, we're
even laughing because it's ridiculous. It's so different from what
we're used to. But Rosen is the kind of guy
(13:10):
that says, no, why are you laughing? Because this is
actually really practical. Right, he's saying, in a military sense,
why wouldn't you want your soldier outfitted with this? Right?
Because it makes perfect sense. Um. Cochlear implants, of course,
are already in existence. But what he is suggesting is
that you have cochlear implants that enhance your hearing, essentially
giving us far superior auditory powers, so we'll be able
(13:31):
to detect things miles away, again becoming superhuman. And uh,
we've mentioned before the senses that we used to perceive
the world are in to varying degrees limited or extremely limited,
even compared to other animals. Um, you know, it's like
the mantis shrimp, which sees and all this vaster array
of colors that we can scarcely imagine. We talked about
(13:53):
when we're talking about bats, how it's almost impossible for
us to really imagine what it's like to to quote unquote,
see the world as a bat. So instead of being
limited by this this world that we've painted in just
a few different colors, he's saying, why don't we paint
the world in more colors? Why don't we update our
our machinery so that we can paint a more brilliant world.
(14:16):
You know, that's an interesting concept to think about when
especially in the I guess in the context of how
we are bombarded with stimuli these days, and we've talked
about this and the multitasking episodes quite a bit. So
I wonder if if doing that, if sort of upping
your experience of that stimuli, would would make sense in
(14:40):
this sort of new world where you're getting thrown things
all the time. So if you get other words, if
you can kind of tune in a little bit more,
things are a little bit louder, things are a little
bit brighter. Does that make sense for the modern human mind?
Sort of opening ended question there, but I wanted to
point out that Rosen is also a fan of alo
location implants and fins. Fins, Yes, why not? I mean
(15:04):
it it comes down to a lot of you know, biomimicry.
If you want to see how to swim, look for
look at an animal that has evolved over the course
of millions and millions of years to be an incredible swimmer.
That's what you need to do. And that we do
that to a certain extent. And you're looking at the
shark skin and then adapting that into swimwear. Um. But
he's talking about taking it even even further. And of
(15:25):
course his pet project, his pet thought experiment. I guess
you could say surgical wings, because this is really where
his engineering brain meets his his his reconstructive brain and
brushes up against the brain of mad science, for sure.
But it is important to think of it as as
a thought experiment. Um. He is not trying to do
this or anything that we know of, uh, but but
(15:49):
it is a great thought experiment for just what are
you know, what are we willing to do? What can
we do? And why are we why do we feel
weird about going into some of these areas like, for instance,
so one of the examples he brings up just in
plastic surgery. And what I mean he brings it up.
He brings it up at conferences because this this dude
has been an amazing figure in plastic surgery, travels over
(16:10):
the world, speaks a big conferences. He's an influential character.
So he's not just his voice out on the fringe.
He's a leading figure. Um. So he brought up for instance,
you have a man walks into the surgeon's office and
he has an extra thumb. Um, he's then he is
a doctor is allowed to take that thumb off. But
but if a person comes in and says, hey, I
would like an extra thumb, then he can't. He can't
(16:33):
do that. That's that's just completely crazy. And nobody adds
extra thumbs to people. But he was saying that he
there was one person that who was I believe a
waiter server and had an extra thumb and it actually
aided that person in their job. This is an actual
person with the second thumb, and he was saying, well
that that was helping that person out. So yeah, why
(16:54):
is it beyond the pail to add extra digits? Yeah,
and then there's also the rest uh example that he
brings up. Um and this is he brought this up
when people were pressing him on the wing issue because
he'd mentioned it before, and then at a conference some
people were kind of, you know, they're a little freaked
out by this, and they're saying, would you really do that?
Would you really give somebody wings? Or would you give somebody,
(17:15):
you know, lizard skin? Would you really do any of
these crazy things? And so he's bringing up various examples
to to make his, uh, his point, And he pointed
out that that there was a lady that he'd come
across that was in need of breast reconstruction and she
wanted blue areolas. And don't have anything to say about that,
but he said, well, you know what's wrong with that? Um?
(17:37):
You know what, why not if the person wants to
have blue areolas, let him have blue areolas. How is
that different from a lot of the things we did
to our body? You know? For some reason, of all
the things that have been saying on this podcast, that's
the one thing that made me. But don't ask me why, um,
you know, and it's stuff like this, I think that
makes people sort of look at him a little sideways.
(17:58):
But the fact the matter, as I said, this is
someone who is an absolute expert in his field and
steeped in the technology. He's on the advisory panel for
the Navy as well as NASA. His insights on human
machine interfaces brought him to the attention of the Department
of Defense here in the States, and they've sought his
views on virtual reality, future warfare, and bio terrorism. So
(18:21):
people want his brain. They want to know what's going
on and rumbling around in that brain is blue oriole
aerials and uh, you know, nose flashlights and surgical wings. Yeah,
because he'd gain He's one of these guys that he
thinks or sees something in the world and it's it's
like it instantly, the wheels are turning like. He doesn't
take anything for granted. He thinks about it's possible applications,
(18:42):
possible ways to improve it, like, for instance, with rhino plastic,
which often is you know, typically about correcting rebuilding the
nose or or making cosmetic adjustments to the nose. But
he's saying that that hasn't even reached its full potential,
that we could we can improve upon the nose, and
then ultimately improvements that we make to the human body
need not be a surgical in nature, but a genetic
(19:04):
in nature. Okay, so he's talking about gaming the body
now through genetics as opposed to plastic surgery. We're getting
married eventually. Yeah. Um, Now again you have to kind
of take his perspective on a little bit if this
seems odd to you. I mean, again, here's someone who's
doing five D procedures a year. And keep in mind
that in two thousand and ten, Americans spent over ten
(19:24):
billion dollars on cosmetic surgery. So if you're in this
field and you see this over and over again and
your futurist, you can't help but sit there and say,
how can I actually improve upon this process? And if
this is the way that humanity is going, why not
make it really incredible? Why not chase after the idea
of flight, which is something that humans you know, have
(19:47):
always secretly or not so secretly wanted for themselves. Yeah.
So he's at disconference again, people keep pressing him on
this issue, and finally he does answer. Because he's not
the kind of guy that's gonna not tell you exactly
what he thinks of about a topic. He said, and
they said, would you perform this surgery on someone if
they want. Um, No, I think he's talking about wings
in this case. Yeah, I'm just hypothetically, and we'll get
(20:10):
into the mechanics possible mechanics of the surgery in a
bet that he said, yes, I would. I can certainly
see why we don't devote research money to it. I
can see why the n i H would fund work
on breast cancer over this. But I don't have a
problem with altering the human form. We do it all
the time. It's only our Judeo Christian conservatism that makes
us think this is wrong. Who here doesn't try to
(20:31):
send their children to the best schools in the hopes
of altering them. Who here objects to palm pilot, a
thing we we class to our bodies with which we
receive rapid electronic signals. Who here doesn't surround themselves with
a metal shell and travel at death defying speeds. We
have always altered ourselves for beauty or for power, and
so long as we are not causing harm, what makes
(20:51):
us think we should stop? And again, that quote is
from the excellent article by Laurence Slater two thousand one
Harbord Magazine. Dr dayalis Um Highlight recommend everyone to check
that out. So we're going to actually close out the
this episode right here, part one of Surgical Wings, and
we're going to continue this in Surgical Wings Part two,
where we'll really get more into the nitty gritty of
(21:13):
how you could surgically make this uh seemingly impossible thing happen.
I like this analogy of surgery, and here we are.
We're gonna leave you guys in the middle, but we're
gonna suit tre you up in the next part, so
stay tuned for that. In the meantime, if you want
to interact with us online, reach out to us, share
your thoughts on what you've heard so far in Surgical Wings.
(21:33):
You can find us on Facebook and you can find
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you can always drop us a line at blow the
Mind at Discovery dot com for more on this and
thousands of other topics. Does It how Stuff works dot
(21:55):
com
Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm truly decklass Julie
who is not dreamed of either having wings themselves or
just dreams of winged humanoids flying about. I mean, it's
(00:24):
the stuff of just ancient myth, the stuff of fantasy,
the stuff of religion, the stuff of of art. It's
there's something just irresistible about the idea of a human
with the wings of a bird, or even the wings
of a bat. Yeah. The desire to fly, I think
is pretty universal. Even Dorothy from oz right somewhere of
the rainbow, bluebirds fly, birds fly over the rainbow? Why then,
(00:48):
oh why can't I Yeah, we're just singing the rest, Okay,
But yeah, one example that always comes to my mind.
I mean, there are a lot of a iconic ones. Obviously,
the myth of Icarus and Datalus is big. The idea
that you know, they built these wings and then they
fly too close to the sun and then they plummet.
It's just a fantastic metaphor for so much in human endeavor,
(01:11):
human technology, um humans reaching to achieve things that they
were not necessarily biologically gifted with, but via their intelligence,
are in a sense genetically gifted with. I also think
back to a book called Goodbye to All That by
Robert Graves, British author who famously wrote I Claudius Um.
That's probably what he's most known for, But this was
(01:32):
his biography and he was talking about his um, his
service in World War One. There's a bit about mountain
climbing in that as well, because he was one of
these just really adventurous dudes. He'd go out with his
his pals and they would scale these these towering cliffs.
And there was one point where he's talking about, you know,
clinging to the side of this this rock face. Uh,
you know, pretty to someone like me, who is not
(01:53):
a mountain climber and will never mountain climb, terrifying idea,
just to imagine myself clinging to the side of a
mountain face. Uh. But he was unfazed. But he was
an adventuest dude, had bravery and just a natural inclination
for this kind of thing. But one time he said,
they're scaling, they're they're a little tired clinging to the side,
and a bird like sort of flow flies by, but
(02:14):
given the altitude and the wind, kind of floats out
there to the side, and and he entered the house
just so unnerving. The idea that it was like the
bird was was coaxing him into letting go, as if
there was another way, as if he could fly, which
which also gets into these weird impulses we sometimes have
of almost like self destructive impulses. The the idea that, oh,
(02:36):
if I get too close to the edge of the building,
I might jump off, I was to say, because I
have that. So even if I meant to say, like
a fairly like simple structure like a mall on the
second floor, I don't want to go to the edge
because I feel as if I'm going to plunge off.
So it's kind of interesting that there's this idea of him,
you know, clinging to the side and this bird short
(02:56):
of mocking him to the limits of his own morphology.
Hey dude, you're never going to have wings. You might
consure this cool that you can you know, rock climb
up here, but you know, let me just buzz around
you and remind you of this. Yeah, it's like, in
a sense, we see the birds flying and we we
inded it, and we feel to a certain extent like
it's our birthright because vast empty air, vast heights are
(03:19):
terrifying because we know that that's a limitation to us.
We know that those are those are heights that we
cannot really ascend to. Yes, we there, you know. We
we have airplanes at our disposal. We have various uh
methods of flight and gliding and skydiving and everything, but
they're all kind of cheap imitations of the natural biological
gifts of a bird. That's right, We're greedy. We want
(03:40):
it for ourselves. It's not enough that we have created
flight in the form of jets and planes and uh,
you know, various other modes of transportation. So the question,
and the question for this podcast is is it would
it be possible? Is it really possible that we could
somehow create wings for ourselves? Um? And I'm not talking
(04:02):
just like strapping on some wings, because there are wingsuits
which are phenomenal. There's actually an article on them on
how stuff works dot com that I wrote how wingsuits
work and it's phenomenal technology and the people who use
them are insane and also highly skilled. Um. But yeah,
could we actually have biological wings that are a part
of us, that are an extension of us. Right, could
(04:23):
we gain our bodies in our minds in order to
actually have this be a part of our own morphology?
And why not? Right, because we've talked about this, this
is this is not so crazy. I mean, it's absolutely
out there. But there are so many different ways that
we have augmented our reality in our physicality that uh,
no doubt one day this could be a possibility. Yeah,
(04:44):
I mean, like you said, there's so many things we
do to our bodies. Anyway, we went into this, We've
got into this a number of times. We talked about
post humanism quite a bit, and and cybernetics. We did
an episode called the Werewolf Principle Um, which probably wasn't
the best title in the world because it doesn't have
anything to do with or wolves. It's about that. It's
a has to do with a sci fi story I
was reading at the time, But the idea that we
(05:05):
change our but potentially we change our bodies in order
to explore space and to explore our the world instead
of attempting to bring a portion of our atmosphere in
our environment with us. Uh and and and our limitations
with us we instead alter ourselves, and certainly we make
a lot of augmentations to ourselves anyway, So many things
(05:25):
such as glasses, contacts, various biomedical equipment that is added
to the human body. We're making these changes anyway for
things that are generally thought of as necessary. Um. And
then we also make changes that are cosmetic in nature.
But what about wings? Well, yeah, and in order to
actually really get to the meat of this conversation, we
(05:45):
have to bring up Dr Joseph Rosen. He is a
Dartmouth plastic surgeon and reconstructive surgeon. And it's um, I
think would be pretty mild just to say that he's
a futurist. Yeah, and he's definitely a UTRA, is definitely
a post humanist in a he's he's one of these
amazing individuals that if you look him up, you'll find
(06:07):
various articles about his work. Um. But in particular, there
was a two thousand and one UM interview slash profile
in Harper's magazine by Lawrence Slater. Highly recommend anyone read
who's fascinated by this topic. It was called Dr Dayalus.
It's an excellent article. Actually, the way that it was
written reminded me of Mary Rich in the way that
(06:27):
she approaches her material, so it is well worth checking out.
So with Rosen, here's the thing. He is, he's totally
steeped in his profession and he takes on something like
five hundred patients a year to do mostly reconstructive surgery,
but some plastic surgery as well. I mean, this is
someone he was an absolute expert in his field. He is, uh,
(06:50):
he steeped in the practicalities of it, but he was
also a big thinker. Yeah, he's a plastic surgeon, but
but not a mirror cosmetic surgeon. And the article in
question went into sort of around the turn of the
millennium where plastic surgery stood about the idea that it's
sort of sort of in this place where it's often
looked down on um by people outside of the medical profession,
(07:14):
and sometimes within the medical profession, may be seen as
as a as a lesser medical practice, which of course
is is not not the case when you look at
the the the non cosmetic applications. When you're looking at
people who have undergone serious injury, particularly facial injuries for instance,
and finding ways to correct that and and bring a
certain amount of normalcy back to that person's life. When
(07:37):
you look at cleft palate and cleft lip reconstruction. Yeah,
I mean there's there's a lot that goes on in
plastic surgery that is not breast jobs. But but that
tends to be sort of the the easy association that
people make when you just hear plastic surgeon on TV. Oh,
she went to the plastic surgeon's office. That means she
had something superficial and unnecessary done. But plastic surgery is
(07:59):
bigger than that, much bigger. And uh, you know, as
you had said that he has he's worked on reconstructing
faces um when died warrior causes. Right, So we're talking
about catastrophic poly trauma. So if you're in uh, if
you're a soldier and you have undergone this trauma, what
that means is that you have so many various problems
(08:20):
going on um that you can't necessarily, uh find a
solution to all of those injuries. But what Dr Rosen
can do is he can fashion a new knows um,
but he can't restore that soldier's sense of smell. He
can at least give some sort of normalcy back to
that person. So that's a lot of work that he
does there. Um. He also is working on healthcare reform.
(08:41):
This is really interesting. This isn't the form of cybercare.
He argues that our hospital system is just uh, you know,
an outgrowth of the Civil War. In other words, it
was set up to administer to a huge amount of
massive casualties. And he's saying that that's just not the
way that the world works today. And he is helping
to revamp the national healthcare system of Vietnam using cellphones
(09:03):
and laptops to link clinics, hospitals, and rural physicians. So
this guy is a renaissance man. And like I said,
he's a big thinker, which is extended over to his
ideas about what we can do in terms of improving
not just augmenting, i should say, but really heightening our
senses as a human being, in augmenting our experiences as
(09:27):
a human being. Yeah, he's an amazing thinker. And then
he really use the cliche, you know, thinks outside the box.
He is the he's a bit of a rebel. He's
he's questioning authority and questioning sort of normal approaches to
things all the time. And you see that with with
with various gifted minds out there. You know, it's it's
not merely that they work really hard and are just
(09:50):
geniuses within the confines of their profession, within the confines
of their their role in society, but they actually think
beyond the typical constraint. It's true. Like, for instance, he
says that a salamander can regenerate in arm in forty
two days, So he says, somewhere in your own genome
that ability still exists. He says, why can't we go
ahead and find that figure that out so that we
(10:13):
can regenerate a whole limb for ourselves. And he says,
we can do it. It's just a matter of you know,
twenty to fifty years to coming up with that. Um. So,
you know, he also looks at soldiers again who have
had those catastrophic poly traumas, and he says, why can't
we use a whole body pro thesis, like you know
that's made out of exoskeleton. Um. You know, obviously cost
(10:36):
as a factor in perception because it's not too it's
not too normal. They see someone trapesing through a hallway,
who's you know, in case in exo skeleton, But he's
got these ideas of how to make it work for
humans and how to, as I said, augment the experiences
for people and make it better. Yeah, he wants to
make it better. He wants to fix it. You see
that both in in healthcare reform, as you mentioned, but
(10:57):
also but more importantly, in the human body. There's a
great quote from that article that I think really sums
up a lot about Rosen's outlook on not just plastic
surgery but life. He says, you know, I'm really proud
of that face. And he's talking about some facial reconstruction
that he performed on an individual who lost a lot
of it to cancer. Because I'm really proud of that face.
I didn't follow any protocol. There's no textbook to tell
(11:19):
you how to fashion a face eaten away by cancer.
Plastic surgery is the intersection of art and science. It's
the intersection of the surgeon's imagination with human flesh, and
human flesh is infinitely malleable. People say cosmetic surgery is
frivolous boobs and noses, but it's so much more than that.
The body is a conduit for the soul, at least
historically speaking, When you change what you look like, you
(11:41):
change who you are so well, and it doesn't That
kind of speak to a lot of what we've talked
about in the podcast in terms of studies having to
do with psychology the whole, like you fit, you know,
fake it till you make it, or you know, if
you assume a powerful posture, then your body responds physiological way.
So you know, a lot of what he's saying is
(12:03):
is there's a truth there that if you can change
yourself in that way, then certainly physically and mentally, things
will follow. Okay, so let's get into some of his
really fun post humanist dreams for the human body. Yeah,
because he again he's all about making the changes necessary,
arguably necessary in some cases to make us better beings.
(12:25):
For instance, calcular implants, uh, new rods for the eyes
to give a super binocular vision. Um soldier implants like
this was great, a nose flashlight because you know your
nose is just there. You know it's important for breathing.
But you know optics, optic technology grow smaller and smaller.
Why not have a light up there? Imagine you sort
(12:48):
of you know, you click one nostril and then a
light shines out the other nose and you it's perfect
for reading. It's a great idea. Really, now I can
just see eight year old really having fun with that
when they blow their nose. Yeah, yeah, like light flashes,
like really bright light every time you sneeze. But it's
stuff like that, like when you say it, like, we're
even laughing because it's ridiculous. It's so different from what
we're used to. But Rosen is the kind of guy
(13:10):
that says, no, why are you laughing? Because this is
actually really practical. Right, he's saying, in a military sense,
why wouldn't you want your soldier outfitted with this? Right?
Because it makes perfect sense. Um. Cochlear implants, of course,
are already in existence. But what he is suggesting is
that you have cochlear implants that enhance your hearing, essentially
giving us far superior auditory powers, so we'll be able
(13:31):
to detect things miles away, again becoming superhuman. And uh,
we've mentioned before the senses that we used to perceive
the world are in to varying degrees limited or extremely limited,
even compared to other animals. Um, you know, it's like
the mantis shrimp, which sees and all this vaster array
of colors that we can scarcely imagine. We talked about
(13:53):
when we're talking about bats, how it's almost impossible for
us to really imagine what it's like to to quote unquote,
see the world as a bat. So instead of being
limited by this this world that we've painted in just
a few different colors, he's saying, why don't we paint
the world in more colors? Why don't we update our
our machinery so that we can paint a more brilliant world.
(14:16):
You know, that's an interesting concept to think about when
especially in the I guess in the context of how
we are bombarded with stimuli these days, and we've talked
about this and the multitasking episodes quite a bit. So
I wonder if if doing that, if sort of upping
your experience of that stimuli, would would make sense in
(14:40):
this sort of new world where you're getting thrown things
all the time. So if you get other words, if
you can kind of tune in a little bit more,
things are a little bit louder, things are a little
bit brighter. Does that make sense for the modern human mind?
Sort of opening ended question there, but I wanted to
point out that Rosen is also a fan of alo
location implants and fins. Fins, Yes, why not? I mean
(15:04):
it it comes down to a lot of you know, biomimicry.
If you want to see how to swim, look for
look at an animal that has evolved over the course
of millions and millions of years to be an incredible swimmer.
That's what you need to do. And that we do
that to a certain extent. And you're looking at the
shark skin and then adapting that into swimwear. Um. But
he's talking about taking it even even further. And of
(15:25):
course his pet project, his pet thought experiment. I guess
you could say surgical wings, because this is really where
his engineering brain meets his his his reconstructive brain and
brushes up against the brain of mad science, for sure.
But it is important to think of it as as
a thought experiment. Um. He is not trying to do
this or anything that we know of, uh, but but
(15:49):
it is a great thought experiment for just what are
you know, what are we willing to do? What can
we do? And why are we why do we feel
weird about going into some of these areas like, for instance,
so one of the examples he brings up just in
plastic surgery. And what I mean he brings it up.
He brings it up at conferences because this this dude
has been an amazing figure in plastic surgery, travels over
(16:10):
the world, speaks a big conferences. He's an influential character.
So he's not just his voice out on the fringe.
He's a leading figure. Um. So he brought up for instance,
you have a man walks into the surgeon's office and
he has an extra thumb. Um, he's then he is
a doctor is allowed to take that thumb off. But
but if a person comes in and says, hey, I
would like an extra thumb, then he can't. He can't
(16:33):
do that. That's that's just completely crazy. And nobody adds
extra thumbs to people. But he was saying that he
there was one person that who was I believe a
waiter server and had an extra thumb and it actually
aided that person in their job. This is an actual
person with the second thumb, and he was saying, well
that that was helping that person out. So yeah, why
(16:54):
is it beyond the pail to add extra digits? Yeah,
and then there's also the rest uh example that he
brings up. Um and this is he brought this up
when people were pressing him on the wing issue because
he'd mentioned it before, and then at a conference some
people were kind of, you know, they're a little freaked
out by this, and they're saying, would you really do that?
Would you really give somebody wings? Or would you give somebody,
(17:15):
you know, lizard skin? Would you really do any of
these crazy things? And so he's bringing up various examples
to to make his, uh, his point, And he pointed
out that that there was a lady that he'd come
across that was in need of breast reconstruction and she
wanted blue areolas. And don't have anything to say about that,
but he said, well, you know what's wrong with that? Um?
(17:37):
You know what, why not if the person wants to
have blue areolas, let him have blue areolas. How is
that different from a lot of the things we did
to our body? You know? For some reason, of all
the things that have been saying on this podcast, that's
the one thing that made me. But don't ask me why, um,
you know, and it's stuff like this, I think that
makes people sort of look at him a little sideways.
(17:58):
But the fact the matter, as I said, this is
someone who is an absolute expert in his field and
steeped in the technology. He's on the advisory panel for
the Navy as well as NASA. His insights on human
machine interfaces brought him to the attention of the Department
of Defense here in the States, and they've sought his
views on virtual reality, future warfare, and bio terrorism. So
(18:21):
people want his brain. They want to know what's going
on and rumbling around in that brain is blue oriole
aerials and uh, you know, nose flashlights and surgical wings. Yeah,
because he'd gain He's one of these guys that he
thinks or sees something in the world and it's it's
like it instantly, the wheels are turning like. He doesn't
take anything for granted. He thinks about it's possible applications,
(18:42):
possible ways to improve it, like, for instance, with rhino plastic,
which often is you know, typically about correcting rebuilding the
nose or or making cosmetic adjustments to the nose. But
he's saying that that hasn't even reached its full potential,
that we could we can improve upon the nose, and
then ultimately improvements that we make to the human body
need not be a surgical in nature, but a genetic
(19:04):
in nature. Okay, so he's talking about gaming the body
now through genetics as opposed to plastic surgery. We're getting
married eventually. Yeah. Um, Now again you have to kind
of take his perspective on a little bit if this
seems odd to you. I mean, again, here's someone who's
doing five D procedures a year. And keep in mind
that in two thousand and ten, Americans spent over ten
(19:24):
billion dollars on cosmetic surgery. So if you're in this
field and you see this over and over again and
your futurist, you can't help but sit there and say,
how can I actually improve upon this process? And if
this is the way that humanity is going, why not
make it really incredible? Why not chase after the idea
of flight, which is something that humans you know, have
(19:47):
always secretly or not so secretly wanted for themselves. Yeah.
So he's at disconference again, people keep pressing him on
this issue, and finally he does answer. Because he's not
the kind of guy that's gonna not tell you exactly
what he thinks of about a topic. He said, and
they said, would you perform this surgery on someone if
they want. Um, No, I think he's talking about wings
in this case. Yeah, I'm just hypothetically, and we'll get
(20:10):
into the mechanics possible mechanics of the surgery in a
bet that he said, yes, I would. I can certainly
see why we don't devote research money to it. I
can see why the n i H would fund work
on breast cancer over this. But I don't have a
problem with altering the human form. We do it all
the time. It's only our Judeo Christian conservatism that makes
us think this is wrong. Who here doesn't try to
(20:31):
send their children to the best schools in the hopes
of altering them. Who here objects to palm pilot, a
thing we we class to our bodies with which we
receive rapid electronic signals. Who here doesn't surround themselves with
a metal shell and travel at death defying speeds. We
have always altered ourselves for beauty or for power, and
so long as we are not causing harm, what makes
(20:51):
us think we should stop? And again, that quote is
from the excellent article by Laurence Slater two thousand one
Harbord Magazine. Dr dayalis Um Highlight recommend everyone to check
that out. So we're going to actually close out the
this episode right here, part one of Surgical Wings, and
we're going to continue this in Surgical Wings Part two,
where we'll really get more into the nitty gritty of
(21:13):
how you could surgically make this uh seemingly impossible thing happen.
I like this analogy of surgery, and here we are.
We're gonna leave you guys in the middle, but we're
gonna suit tre you up in the next part, so
stay tuned for that. In the meantime, if you want
to interact with us online, reach out to us, share
your thoughts on what you've heard so far in Surgical Wings.
(21:33):
You can find us on Facebook and you can find
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account where we use the handle blow the Mind and
you can always drop us a line at blow the
Mind at Discovery dot com for more on this and
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(21:55):
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