September 30, 2015 • 53 mins
Jason Merrill of Blackbird Finery joins Holly in the studio to talk about adopting the styles and accessories of yesteryear into modern wardrobes.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm tracybe Wilson, and today we're
actually getting something a little different. We have an interview,
but it is with an old friend of mine who
(00:21):
I'm lucky enough to know because he knows a great
deal about historical men's wear. His name is Jason Merrill,
and Jason is one of those people who look intapper
just about any time you see him. He is never
ever sloppy, and he knows a lot, specifically about gentleman's accessories. Well,
and I'm also really excited. This is a yet another
thing that you have recorded and I have not heard yet.
So I'm extremely excited because so many of our fashion
(00:43):
episodes are about women's fashion, so it is great we're
gonna have a men's one. And since we are coming
up on holloween, when you know people might want to
go with the historical look for their costume, and then
it's the holiday season where maybe you might want to
upgrade your look with a little bit of a historical player.
Perfect time to discuss how all that goes together. Yeah,
(01:04):
and this is really just a chat. It's an interview,
but it stays very casual. You'll discover early on that
Jason I have known each other a very long time,
and it is really full of fascinating little tips and tidbits.
So you're going to get a lot of interesting knowledge
that you may not have expected been this first section.
We're gonna talk a little bit about Jason's backstory and
how he got into historical clothing, and they're also some
(01:27):
little trivia bits in there, including where ties come from, uh,
and how military clothing influenced men's fashion. So let's hit it.
So now we have a delightful treat and that we
have a special guest and in studio no less UH
and it is a good friend of mine, Jason Merrill. Welcome, Jason,
(01:49):
thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. I
had a revelation recently that I have known you almost
twenty years. Yes, Jason, just to give you a brief story,
it was my husband's roommate when my husband and I met,
So Jason, I have known each other for a very
long time, and it doesn't seem like it. It seems
like I just met you recently because we see so
little of each other sadly normally once a year at
(02:11):
Dragon Con. If you taped together all of our interactions,
it might equally year. I don't know if you remember this,
but we were moving. I was moving out the same
day you were moving in. It was literally passing in
the door with boxes. I do remember. It was me
and my crazy heard of people. But we have Jason
(02:33):
here today not to talk about moving or our history,
but instead to talk about something else from history, which
is gentlemen's accessories. And he's really kind of a pro
because he lives the gentleman's accessory historical lifestyle. I do
my best. I tried, I think you do well. So first,
will you just tell us a little bit about sort
of when you got interested in this and specifically when
(02:54):
you got really interested in gentlemen's accessories. Some of it
goes back to this was ninety eight when my wife
Julie and I we were getting married and she was
having a dress made and I already owned a tuxedo.
I was not going to wear something I already owned
to my wedding. I wanted something fancier, and we both
(03:16):
thought that Victorian style was a little more formal than formal,
so I had a a waistcoat made so I could
wear a pocket watch, a little double breasted waistcoat, and
a calf link velvet rock coat. And as part of that,
(03:36):
the seamstress made several waistcoats as samples, and I really
liked wearing those waistcoats around due to the reaction that
they got, so I've been I was kind of wearing
steampunkish type stuff long before that actually became affing. And
then from there, I had some friends that threw a
(03:56):
lolita convention a couple of years ago called Frill, and
they need to do some gentlemen's programming, and I offered
to come in and talk about accessories and how to
tie ascots and botas and things like that. And in
my search for samples, I had been buying lots of
things off the day so I could get a wide
variety of items, and I ended up doing a table
(04:19):
at the convention because their boyfriends and husbands and what
have you had nothing to you know, it was all
freely dresses and all of that stuff. So I figured out,
let me give them at least a little oasis in
the middle of everything else, And so from there, I've
been looking into you know, I've I've started a little
sideline where I sell such things. I am a purveyor
(04:42):
of of gentlemen's furnishings. So do you have a favorite
era in men's fashion Historically? Um, it kind of slides,
But I do like the Victorian and the Edwardian because
that really is a much more formal, more elegant era,
shall we say, But the just the gentleman stuff through
(05:05):
the twenties and thirties and back when men actually wore
hats and I look horrible in hats. I just I've
not found a style that actually works for me. That
is sort of when men's fashion kind of got an upgrade. Yes,
in terms of like there prior to that, it was
largely the military stuff where men really got fancy outfits.
And that's that's primarily what has driven your uh, I guess,
(05:34):
uh casual, not casual, but your your non military gentleman's
where the public life takes its cue from the military life.
And that was back um in the Napoleon era. Women
really liked the look of those soldiers. That's a dashing figure,
(05:57):
that's a really nice, like very appealing silhouette. And the
guys that were not in the military started taking their
cues from that. They would wear the tighter trousers and
they would wear the the what we call a tie
actually came out of the Croatian military and their cravat,
(06:19):
and that became a very popular public thing. Nice because
they're eating correct of military and you still want the women, Yes,
you have to emulate the style that they're into. Uh,
what do you think is the best starter piece for
someone who wants to kind of borrow from historical gentleman's
(06:41):
fashion and add a little historical flare in their ensembles
day to day. I guess there's there's two answers here.
One for a lot of guys, it would be start
wearing button down shirts. Take that first step and actually
start dressing a little nicer. But once you're once you've
(07:03):
gotten comfortable to those sorts of things, I mean, I
think a pocket watches is a great you know, now,
admittedly you have to be wearing like a waistcoat or
something like that, but your jeans have a watch pocket
in them, and there are the ribbon fobs that are
specifically meant for that type of thing, that that short pocket.
(07:24):
They're either at the waist or in the I have
a suit that has a watch pocket built into the
waistband of the pants. Yeah, I've made trousers for my beloved.
That are the things that are historical trousers. And when
you you'll look at old pictures and you'll see that
little ribbon coming from underneath the waistcoat, and a lot
of people don't understand what that is. I think that's
(07:44):
the case of a lot of historical stuff. You're like,
I have no idea what's going on there. But then
when you actually take a peek, you realize, oh, this
has a great utility. One very simple thing. For example,
if you're used to wearing suits all day but you
want to take it to the next level, a little
color bar holds the points of your collar together. Now,
(08:07):
with a bow tie, it's almost completely hidden, but with
a straight tie you see the edges of it peek out.
But what it does is it holds you're not up higher,
it holds it all up and straight and a really
nice It's not that it really droops otherwise, but it
really does. It helps the tie pop. But that little
(08:30):
glint of metal on both sides, and the fact that
it's a tighter, sharper appearance. Yeah, it keeps your collar
position so crisp that you kind of can't help but
look one, it makes you look like you have great
posture even if you don't. And too, you just look
a little more put together. I have to admit when
when I put on my suit or even like a waistcoat,
(08:51):
it's like putting on armor, you know, and you do
want to present your best appearance. You want to you'll
straighten up and you'll you know it just it just
helps present that united front. See that's why I like
wearing historical corsets. You can actually be slumping, but no
one can tell. It's all fixed and held in play
(09:12):
with a well fitted waistcoat on One things that drives
me absolutely nuts as seeing gentleman wearing a waistcoat that
is too small. It's pulling very awkwardly across the front.
But you also have shirt blousing out from underneath, and
it's supposed to be this smooth silhouette. Don't do that.
(09:36):
Just make sure your shirts tucked in and your waistcoat
actually covers your waist. The whole point of the waistcoat
was to hide your waist, so you shouldn't see your
belt buckle. You shouldn't see the edge of your shirt
poking out on this side. That's just completely opposite from
the purpose of the waistcoat in the first place. Well,
(09:57):
you've kind of jumped the line on one of my question,
but you also gave me an idea on another question
that I'm gonna ask you later. So my next question
is going to be And since we've already covered the
shirts sticking out from under the waistcoat, you can go
to something else if you want, which is are there
any major pitfalls that newcomers to historical men's where really
need to be careful about that They may not naturally
think of, Um will fit fits very important anyway, and
(10:24):
a lot of people just don't understand. You know, the
reason why your Hollywood stars look absolutely fantastic and just
a T shirt and jeans is that it's been tailored
to them. They have shoppers who know their measurements, and
they know that if they buy something, for example, if
they buy a shirt that fits in the shoulders, you know,
across the back, everything else can be taken in and
(10:47):
tucked and tailored. What have you? So, knowing your measurements
and knowing what what does fit and what you can
get altered means when you start to wear uh, historical
stuff like the waistcoat, you'll know the proper length. You'll
know to get something that's not too big so you're
(11:07):
swimming in it, and not too small that it looks
like you're about to bust out any moment. Well, and
this gets into that area, and it happens in both
men's where and women's where where. Um, there's a little
bit of vanity shrinkage in your measurements, yes, and some
of it is aspirational. Someone will say, oh, I'm gonna
drop five pounds and then this will fit perfect. But
(11:28):
if it takes longer than you think, or if your
life gets busy and you can't maintain whatever you're eating
and exercise regiment is you've basically, particularly in historical garments,
which are usually a little bit pricier if you want
to get quality, you have basically spent money on a
thing that makes you look like an unhappy sausage. But
as an example, I have a vented suit ipot and
(11:49):
I got it via eBay u k so it had
been custom tailored for someone in the sixties. It happens
to fit me perfectly because I've got really weird measurements
and they had really weird measurements, and that's how I
got it by auction, because nobody else did on it.
It wouldn't fit them. But the when you're having something
(12:10):
like that made you take into account that you're going
to drift sizes. So the pants have built in suspenders.
They're just you know, elastic and adjustable, but they also
have the side adjusters so if your waist slides up
a bit or slides down a bit, and have those
(12:31):
side adjusters. And when you're buying things like oh, you know,
jeans or a suit these days, it's pretty much that
size and that's it. But if you if you are
careful and you know what to look for, you can
find them with the side tabs and things like that.
One of the things that I had never noticed until
(12:52):
recently was, and this is just an odd sideline thing,
but James Bond doctor now he always had his Sean
Connery had his suits made by a guy named Anthony Sinclair,
and he had the pants done with the side tabs,
so he was never wearing bracers or or a belt,
(13:18):
but he would button his shoulder holster to the unused
button his pants where these side adjusters were, and I
had always seen them, you know, I remember him buttoning,
you know, unbuttoning his shoulder holster and taking it off,
and I was wondering what that button was. And then
later on, you know, I was reading about his suits
(13:42):
and it's like, of course, that makes perfect sense, but
I had never you know, as a kid seeing it,
you have no idea. I also just love that there's
a place to read about his suits. There's an entire
website devoted to the suits of James Bond. Of course
there is, and it is a brilliant source, not just
for you know, what he's wearing, but the history behind
(14:05):
the various tough styles and you know why he was
wearing this particular type of tuxedo, jacket or ensemble at
a particular point in time. If you had a magic
(14:32):
wand and you could choose one historical fashion or growing practice,
and this could be men or women that could be
brought back into the modern era, what would you pick. Um,
That's actually kind of hard because a lot of what
used to be done is still being done. It's just
not his widespread you know, I think every gentleman or
(14:54):
want to be gentleman, should go and have a straight
razor shave. Oh yeah, Actually, go for the whole package.
Find a find a salon that you know, get a trim,
but get a straight razor shave, the full deal with
the hot towels, but get a manicure at the same time. Pamper,
pamper yourself. I mean women do it all the time.
(15:16):
Guys we need to do the same thing. And I
can't tell you how relaxing it is to have that,
you know, the hot towels on your face and just
nice and calm and having a professional shave like that.
It all. It helps you realize what you can be
doing at home. I mean when you're when you're a
(15:36):
guy who shaves, it's something you're gonna do every single day,
so you might as well make it something that's enjoyable.
Turn it into a bit of a ritual. And while
you don't have to do, say the hot towel yourself,
you can pay attention as they're doing their routine and
you can go, Okay, well they use this pre shave oil.
(15:57):
Maybe I can try that, and I shave with a
double edge safety razor at home. But I do the
appreciave oil. I have a brush. I like, um, experimenting
with different types of shaving creams and preparations and what
have you. But there's something really comforting about a really
(16:18):
really hot brush and lather going on. And it's just
particularly it's something where you really like the scent of
the shaving cream. Yeah, that's to help start your day.
It's like, Okay, this is nice. I've never thought about that,
but it makes sense. You know. It is a great
(16:39):
ritual and it's uh and and I'm with you. I
think everybody should get equal pampering opportunities. Yeah, uh so
I love it get a nice straight razor shaved gents.
So here's an interesting thing. Um, you kind of alluded
to this when you mentioned that there are a lot
of greaming habits that we've retained over the years. And
we know men's wear similarly has not gone through the
(17:01):
same wide swings in terms of trends that women's has.
We know, at no point did you attach cages to
your behind to look huge in the posterior. Uh, don't
do it, but we we shoved ourselves into pants that
were far too tight. We still do that, do you
ever feel like you wish that men's wear had had
(17:22):
a little more variety, Like do you ever feel like
you got shafted in terms of your options in historical clothing?
Not really. I mean it's yeah, you could think that, well,
but it's it's a it's a hard thing to say
because there have been attempts at it and they've just
(17:42):
never stuck around because there's nothing like that classic suit. Yeaw,
they shifted over time, you know, obviously there um. I
guess one of one of the best examples of casual
slash sporting items shifting into businesswear is the button down collar.
(18:05):
Brooks Brothers brought that over in the eighteen hundreds because
they saw polo players doing that in England and they
would sew buttons onto their shirts to keep their collars
from flapping into their face while they are playing polo.
So basically that's sportswear. But now it's considered such fancy pants,
(18:29):
unicorn clothing option. Correct. Brooks Brothers has made that into
a fancy option, And I have to admit, I see,
you know, publicity photos of C. E O S and
they're wearing button down shirts and I'm just like shaking
my head. You can do. What they need is a
little collar bar correct a problem. You know. Now that
(18:52):
I've got the collar bars, I've also realized the last
couple of French cup shirts that I've bought have very
widespread dollars spread color. You can use it because the
collar is meant to be spread. But that means you've
got more options for the knots on your ties. You
can make it, you know, you can make them a
look thicker. You need to balance your length of collar
(19:15):
with your tie. Kno, you need to balance the length
of your tie with the lapel on your jack. Yeah,
you don't want to know massive seventies tie with a
thin sixties collar, which kind of makes me chuckle. Uh.
And I'll tell you a side story about I was
working on a video shoot completely unrelated to work, as
(19:36):
a favor for somebody, and one of our characters had
to have his tie, just a regular tie tied, and
he not will do There was only one person on
the entire cast and crew that could tie a tie.
I can do them, but it's real floppy, gloppy. It's
not really good for film. So we had to call
in the pro and I have tied this poor boys tie.
(19:56):
I um, I was going to an event. Uh it
was for for an anime convention. Was throwing a semi formal.
So I was walking up to the event and someone
came running up to me and said, can you tie
a bow tie? And I'm like did you point? And
I was wearing it and I was like, yes, yes
(20:19):
I can. And they brought their friend over and I
showed them how to tie the tie. And I ran
into them later at a completely different convention and they
were like, bow tie guy, thank you so much. See
not difficult skills, but it took me forever to learn
how to tie a bow tie. And I was doing
(20:41):
things a little backwards, and I watched all the videos
and I just I couldn't figure it out. But then
I ran across a vintage diagram on how to tie
an ascot. This is the version of an ascot where
you've got the not in front and you cross you know,
you pull it through and you crossed the peace is
and you do a tie tack or a and ask
(21:03):
got penned to hold it all in place and a.
The way the diagram was done, one side of the
tie was white and the other was black, and it
was looking at that, going oh, well, here's where I've
been doing it wrong. And then I realized my I
bought a basically a casual bow tie because I've been
trying with a black silk black tie, I mean, and
(21:24):
that's official black tie. And I tried the casual one
and I got it immediately, and I'm like, what's going
on here? And I tried a couple of times and
I kept getting it. I swapped over to the black
tie and it was smaller, about a half an inch,
so that tolerances were much less and I can tie it,
(21:45):
but I have to be a little more careful. And
I realized that I was poke trying to poke, you know,
one piece through the other the wrong direction, and that's
why I kept just coming apart on it. You just
needed a starter tie, like you're training wheels tie. And
I keep meaning to have a friend make me one
that's like that. I want to have an ascot made
that has one side white and the other side black,
(22:06):
and the same with a bow tie, and the same
with a long tie, so I can show people that
the panel you need to do it cons is try
tying well. I do um uh. A basic gentleman's Successories panel,
and then I talked. I talked about how to tie
ties and ascots and what the differences are, and how
(22:29):
to do your ascot pin you know, because it's it's
not as simple as just sticking it through. You have
to go through the front layer. You have to go
through the inner layer. You have to go through your
shirt back out, through the shirt, back out through the
inner layer right and then pin it correct. A lot
(22:49):
of people either just do it through the tie itself
and therefore it still kind of flaps around, or they'll
do with you and they'll poke it right out the front,
so you see the the pin cap or end cap
on the outside of everything. And really you want just
the the decorative bit showing and not the not the
(23:09):
utility underpinning. Nice Um, I'll diverge a minute so quickly.
The difference between a cravat and a tie and an ascot.
The basically, and this happens with just about everything, is
the terms become generic over time from people either not
using them correctly or just misunderstanding. But basically, the Coroatian
(23:34):
original is what gave us the term cravat, which now
means just about any type of necktie. Your ascot is
a particular style of necktie where it's got two blades.
For example, your standard long tie has a wider end
(23:55):
and a thinner end that goes behind, and ascot has
to blade aids of the same size with either just
a thin piece of cloth in the middle that goes
behind your neck, or it's all the same width kind
that thin piece just has been um gathered and stitched,
(24:16):
or I've seen them sometimes pleaded down. Pleat was the
word I was looking for. So that's it's pleaded, and
that's what goes behind your neck. And then with the
just like with your long tie, there are many different
knots and ways to tie it. With the ascot. You
can tie it like a bow tie, and then you
pull the ends on through and that gives you the
(24:37):
pieces that you can pin and down in front. You
can leave it like a big bow if you wish,
which I think there's an iteration of the joker that
did that correct? Correct? Then there is the you can
tie an ascot like a regular long tie with basically
the windsor where you just flip the end over and
(25:00):
and flipping through. Yeah, so it gives you it looks
like a standard neck tie. Not. It's just you really
should be wearing a waistcoat with that, because it's only
about this. You know, it comes down mid chest right
there at your sternament. It looks kind of silly if
you're not wearing anything over right. Well, but you can
also tie it like a neckerchief or just like well, yeah,
(25:23):
just loop it inside your collar. Yeah. When you mentioned
waistcoat right after talking about how words have gotten a
little dicey and fuzzy, I'll tell you a brief story
of I was making a costume for a gentleman. It
was Victorian version of a comic book figure that he
wanted to do a custom and we had been talking
all this time, and there were things he was saying
that wasn't They just weren't making sense to me. And
(25:44):
then I realized he didn't know that waistcoat did not
mean your coat. That it was more like the best piece.
So those best and waistcoat are kind of interchangeable, and
you have to make sure people you know, you're on
the same page. It's like, okay, when you mean this,
you are talking about this, yes, so um this one.
(26:06):
I know your answer because you talked about it briefly. Beforehand.
But what, in your opinion, is the most uncomfortable historical
men's garment the the collar in in the old style detachable,
very stiff collar. Those things are crazy stiff, like you
can almost use them as a tire. The invention of
(26:27):
the soft collar is one of the greatest you know
that should be celebrated from the rooftops. And for for
our wedding, I did have a detachable collar shirt and
by the end of the day it had cut me
at the back and sides because I just wasn't used
to wearing and wearing them for long periods of time.
(26:50):
It's really uncomfortable. Now. The the other one that goes
along with that would be suck garters. Oh oh, do
you get dig into this in It removes hair, particularly
over time, it'll just wear a thin spot because once
again you're not used to doing it. H And I
(27:12):
still can't decide whether sock garters are the perfect application
of scientific principle to a fashion need or just out
and out comedy or of torture. Well, yeah, they are
tortured well, but a lot of fashion is torture devices
(27:33):
one way or the other. Your collars your tight course,
it's your well, a good course, it shouldn't hurt, and
that's the prosperitizer. Of course. I think one of the
reasons why people are resistant to wearing fancier clothes is
whatever experience they have had with them in the past
(27:54):
has been uncomfortable. Yes, they would get nice shoes to
wear to church every week, but that would be the
only time they would wear them. So for two hours
on a Sunday, you're cramming your feet into these things
that may not have fit perfectly, but you're not wearing
them enough to wear them in, or you're you know,
having to wear a shirt and a tie in your
(28:15):
shirt collar may not be the proper width, so it's
a little too tight, and then you add a tie
on top of that. But if you're if your clothing fits,
it's comfortable. That's why fit is so important. Yeah, that,
and that comes up a lot, particularly in historical garments,
I think, much less so than modern clothing, where fit
(28:36):
is super important, but we have a lot more nits
in the mix. We have a lot more stretch and
ease baked into patterns, Whereas when you wear a fitted
historical garment like the arm's eye, that circle that makes up.
You know, the armhole where your arm in your sleeve meats. Uh,
if that is like tight on like a victorian garment
(28:56):
or um, like an eighteenth century gown or something. If
it's off just a little, raising your arms is almost impossible.
But if it's in the right place, you have pretty
smooth range of movement. Yeah, it's but it's also when
you're doing the historical clothing. For the most part, it's
being custom made for you and you can make sure
(29:17):
things fit appropriately. Where when you're dealing with vintage clothes,
you really need to know your fit going in first,
you need to know your sizes. Um. So, now that
we've talked about the uncomfortable stuff, what is the most
comfortable item of men's wear that is no longer worn
in your opinion? Uh? Well, honestly, the ascot. When you're
(29:42):
a nice silk ascot tucked into your shirt, I mean,
it's a much more casual look than a full tie,
and it's so very comfortable. People just don't you know
there's a reason why you well, they are still worn today.
I mean that's none of the of stuff is truly
completely just flat out disappeared, but ascots are they're really comfortable. Um,
(30:09):
So I'm going backwards a little bit because of the
question you made me think of when you talked about
the shirts poking out from ant of the waistcoats. What
is your thought on the mix of kind of modern
and historical, Like, does it make you crazy to see
someone in a T shirt and a really nice waistcoat
or are you down with kind of mixing up the
air is a little bit he's making a face, So
I think I know the I used to when I
(30:32):
was in college. I would wear T shirts, you know,
like a playing white T shirt and a waistcoat and
things like that. I think it has its place, but
you shouldn't be trying to make that more than what
it is. That's all a casual look. At the moment,
I'm wearing what I tend to wear normally to work,
(30:54):
which is a waistcoat, a bow tie, you know, a
nice white dress shirt, and uh, nice dress shoes, polishable
you know, black leather shoes. But I'm also wearing dark
colored jeans. And it's basically I think the the overall
rule is that you can add one less formal item
(31:18):
to an ensemble more than one, then it is very
much casual, and it depends on where you're going to
be wearing this. If you're going out for an evening
with friends, that works, you know, a nice a nice
blazer over a solid color T shirt. That's a good look,
(31:39):
you know, particularly if it's maybe a the T shirt
has like a higher collar, the mock turtleneck type of thing.
But that doesn't work in a situation where you really
should be wearing a top. It's just it's it's to me,
it's situational. I don't mind the mixing, but it depends
(32:00):
on how far you're trying to take it right. It's
not appropriate for all venues. Correct correct and dressing well
is a sign of respect for both the people you're
going to be meeting and interacting with, but you also
need to respect the event itself. And and this is
(32:21):
something I run across because I run a black tie
invited formal event for Anime Weekend Atlanta. It's still a
formal event even though it's at an anime con. We
ask you can wear a costume, but it needs to
be what that character would wear to a formal event.
Not just because you like this character and you want
(32:41):
to wear what they wear, but you need to think
about the tone of the overall event, and it's a
sign of respect for the event itself, but for everybody
else at the event who has gone to the trouble
to find a tuxedo or to make a ball gown
in their character's call. I like to think of it
as kind of it's it's formal stealth cosplay. You take
(33:06):
the colors of your character and you echo them in
the clothing you would wear to that event, just like
the I guess the Disney Bound where you go to
the park and say you're you're not actually in a
Peter Pan costume, but everything you're wearing is the proper
colors to match what Peter Pan would wear or aerial
(33:29):
or you know. And I've seen some fantastic examples of that,
both for casual clothes for wandering the parts, but also
at our formal events, where people find the right you know,
for example, it will be a black tuxedo, but they
ll ad the proper color waistcoat and tie and accessories
to match their character's colors. I love it, and that
(33:51):
to me, it's it. When it's done right, you're able
to exercise your creativity and beyond just oh, I want
to be X, but it's what do I have to
do to be X in this situation where I am
properly attired and I am respectful of both the event
(34:12):
and everyone else that's there. I love it. Um. I
have a question that one of my friends wanted me
to ask, just because I said, do you any questions
you would ask somebody who's an expert in historical men's way? Okay?
And he said, what is the actual function of a
monocle other than stereotypical shorthand for fancy? Well, I mean
(34:32):
it's it's I wear. I mean it's it's eyeglasses for
you know, if you have, say myopia in one eye,
you get your prescription for that. I but a lot
of times it's purely for magnification purposes and you don't
wear it. The wearing it all the time is shorthand
(34:55):
for fancy, but you don't wear them all the time.
But I think it's it's shorthand for cartoon fans. Yes. Yes,
if you've ever tried to wear a monocle for any
period of time, you understand that that doesn't work. It's uncomfortable.
They just pop out. Not for driving, not a corrective
lens for driving. Now I have one, but it is
it is a just a magnifier, but it's nice to
(35:18):
have that, you know, on a loop around your neck
and then when you need it, you just pull it
out and it's there. Well. I always wonder too, if
it's someone like me who has equally mediocre vision in
both eyes. But I often don't wear corrective lenses because
I like the world fuzzy. But there are times when
I need a little bit of magnification or you know, clarity,
(35:38):
like if I'm looking at something on that during a presentation,
then I could use a monocle. Yes, yes, you could.
Or I have a pair of pincenay Yeah. And when
I got them, I thought that they were just somebody's
really weird prescription, and I took them to my eye
doctor with the express purpose of asking, could I get
(35:59):
my prescription in these? And I could you know, clean
up and they're missing the court pieces that go over
the next But she looked at him and said, no,
these are both three times magnifiers. This was not someone's
every day where. This was probably a jeweler or a watchmaker,
someone who needed that type of magnification. So I've left
(36:22):
them as is, and they're wonderfully. If I need to
read something and I've got my at some point I
will need reading glasses, so I've got a little bit
like I am exactly so, and that's what I'm wearing,
my contacts or glasses. But I can whip out the
pin snah and read the incredibly tiny fine print. You know,
(36:44):
you're trying to see who manufactured something, and you can
just pop those out and they're perfect. Those little identifying
numbers on Apple products seem like they're shrinking every year. Um.
Another question I got from that same friend, my friend Brian,
was why did the wrist watch became fashionable over the
pocket watch World War One? There you go, We're done.
(37:08):
When you were in the trenches fighting the First World War,
it was much easier to take your pocket watch and
strap it to your wrist so you could quickly see
what time it was rather than fumbling through your pockets.
And because the soldiers. Once again, the soldiers did it,
(37:31):
and private individuals saw that and said I want to
do the same thing. But it was it was the
fact that it was a necessity during the First World
War for people to do that because the only watches
you had where the pocket watches? Now, um, they shifted
to you know, they started making more and more wrist watches,
(37:53):
and pocket watches became less popular. But there's still I
mean I'm wearing one now. There's still out there and
available and popular, and I like them. I am admittedly
kind of breaking a rule because I'm wearing both a
pocket watch and a wristwatch. How many? Well, right, but
it's I guess it's It's also one of those fashion
(38:14):
rules is you, you know, only where one time piece,
only wear one, just like you would only wear one
set of glasses, you would only wear one tie, bar
you only wear one tie. There's a certain point of
going overboard. Now you can be the bow tie and
the multiple clock skuy right, Well, I have to admit
(38:34):
there have been times when I've been wearing stuff and
wanted to demonstrate the different methods of wearing a bow tie.
I mean not a bow tie but a pocket watch,
because I have a single Albert chain on now, which
it has a T bar on one end that it's
in your buttonhole. It's got the long chain that leads
(38:56):
to the pocket watch that's in a pocket, and then
there's a drop on it. Or a fob, and in
this case it's a it's a vintage watch key that
would have been used to wind your watch. Gotcha, this
watch doesn't require one. But I've I've found several examples
of these. But you can wear it in your upper pocket,
(39:18):
you can wear it in your the side pockets on
the waistcoat. But then there's so many different types of chains.
You've got a double Albert where you've got too long
chains where you would attach like a pocket knife or
some of the item on the other side, and you
would still have the t bar in the middle. There
are long chains that you would just thread through your button.
(39:40):
There are the ribbon fobs that you could wear in
either the waist level pocket, or you could, uh, for example,
run the tea through your bootineer and wear the watch
in your jacket pocket. Oh, I don't think I've ever
seen that before. I'm sure I haven't. I bet I
haven't noticed. In Go Mas Adams he would wear I
(40:03):
feel like a fool. Well, I never I never realized that.
But there's at least one example where he and Mortisha
are dancing and he is dancing so exuberantly that his
pocket watch flips out of his jacket pocket and is
just dangling there. But I've always wondered what that little
chain was. And then I saw him dancing, But oh,
(40:23):
that's where he wears his watch. And then I keep
running across these watch chains. And if all you knew
of wearing in your pocket, you've realized that's far too short.
It just doesn't make sense because it wouldn't go from
the button into the pocket with enough depth for the
watch to sit there. Now it's fear to wear in
your jacket, your boot. Okay, now it's the bonus round.
(40:50):
What other yummy and delightful little factoids do you want
to share? I've already run across a few of them,
like the uh button down collars, and the the width
of the tie and the width of your lapel. When
when I've been looking through that that big box of ties,
it's almost impossible to tell the era a tie has
(41:13):
come from. But what you can not buy, you can
tell not by the width of the time, because that
almost remains kind of standard. There will always be really
wide ones, there will always be really skinny one. You
can tell by the length of the time. Oh yeah,
the forties, we're much shorter ties and then they got
(41:34):
longer as time went on. But even then that's still
an inexact. You know, manufacturers put dates on things. Please
you don't think it's important, but years from now someone
will be running across your items and want to know
(41:54):
when it was manufactured. Yeah, well then you also they'll
get into the thing where a lot of things are manufactured.
They are either made by like, you know, one person
doing a one off or I know I run into
a lot of those when I shop vintage, Like I
can tell like, oh, somebody made this, you know, it's
(42:16):
really hard to age. Usually I end up having to
try to guess based on the textile that was used.
Like I can say, oh, this is you know, a
slubby silk that was popular in the late sixties. You know.
But but even that it's a guest because a lot
of times, especially in modern era, people would like to
reproduce those old popular textiles. That's an important point though.
(42:40):
Knowing when certain materials were used as the primary material
for a certain items does help date because you know,
at least you know, rayon was invented, you know, in
the forties, so it's not going to be something from
the twenties or thirties because this wasn't around or actually,
(43:02):
well right on is probably invented earlier than that, but
I don't know. I I associated start with forties fifties,
but I have no basis for that. That's my brain
shuffling stuff around, So don't take any of that is Um,
do you ever go bananas? Like when people are mixing
matchy with their eras, even if it's all historical, does
(43:24):
it bug you? I mean, let's say, outside of they're
not trying to represent oh I'm Victorian, and they clearly
have on something that's out of time, but just in general,
if their style is get old and they mixed too
many periods, does it make you cuckoo a little bit?
I mean, well, for example, and this is mainly not
knowing what they really are or how to wear them right,
(43:47):
but seeing people wear really thick neck ties as if
they are ascots just looks odd. I don't know if
I've ever seen that, but now I'm gonna keep an
eye out. And the other thing is, um, I have
seen people where it's I've heard it referred to as
(44:07):
different things, but I know it as a stock that's
your neckcloth. That's just really, really really really long, and
you wrap it around your neck a couple of times,
and if you only wrap it, say twice, you get
a really big bow. If you wrap it three times,
you get a smaller bow. There are many different things
you can do with it, but what you shouldn't do
(44:29):
is just wrap it around once and loop it over
like it's an ascot to tuck into your collar, because
then you have a piece that goes down to about
your knees that you're having the stuff inside your shirt.
Because I had to help somebody with that because they
thought it was just an ascot. But it just seemed
(44:49):
wrong to them too, because it was too long. And
it's like, well, that's because it is. You're supposed to
wear it this particular way, but they didn't want to
loop it around there, you know, they didn't like things
on their neck like that. Right, Well, here's something you
can do to wear it and not be is sight
with it. But it's also not you know, you're not
having to stuff it down and wrap it around your waist.
(45:11):
That's like maybe the big piece of wisdom, right, like,
let logic be your guide. If it seems really funky,
you're probably doing it wrong. Yes, And then take take
that step back and maybe try and do a little
bit of research and take luck. I mean, but but
a lot of big problem is people selling things mislabeled
(45:31):
because they don't understand what they are. I can't tell
you how many cuff links I have run across and
those are air quotes with my fingers that are actually
shirt studs because they have there's a there's a certain
style of shirt stud that has a long piece behind
the stud that's got a little spring loaded bit. Those
(45:53):
are studs to hold your shirt together or your waistcoat together.
They are not cuff links. They don't work as cufflings.
If you even try them once as cuff links, you
will understand, oh, this must be something else flapping. And
yet you will find them all over eBay and Etsy
and other know in antique stores labeled as cut lengths
(46:17):
actually studs. That's one of the things that even got
me into buying things as examples, because when I was
trying to find items for myself, I kept finding things
mislabeled and misidentified, like a a very long stock slash
neckcloth sold as an ascot. Well, mascots are one thing.
(46:38):
They're the double bladed a stock has no blades. It's
just one really long piece of cloth. It doesn't been
around forever exactly. I mean, if you look at colonial ware,
if you look at European Rococo era, they're just they're
floating about like and they really look great, but you
(46:59):
have to learn and how to wear them. And time.
I finally bought myself one. It's kind of a lavender
slight purple, just so I could learn how to play
with it. And it's you know, you can do all
manner of those. You can still do a standard. You know,
you can loop it around your neck a couple of times,
but you can do any kind of not once you've
done that, and they're just there. They are, I guess
(47:21):
more regency era, but they definitely add a certain amount
of class or whatever you're wearing. I love it. I
love it. Jason. Thank you so much for sharing all
of your vast knowledge with us. And I know that's
not actually all of it. There's tons more. Well, this
was fun. I'm glad to have the chance. Where can
people find you? Well? Uh, I run a company called
(47:41):
Blackbird Finery and where blackbird Finery dot com and I'm
on et scene, Facebook, my sideline is Blackbird Finery, and
I occasionally do shows here in town, like the Speakeasy,
elector Swing or steampunk events. And I will be uh
joining with some other folks to vend at the Sunday
(48:04):
in the Park at Oakland Cemetery in October. Oh, it's
just spectacular. I'm missing it this year. I keep always
getting scheduled out of town. When it happened, I've never been.
Oh it's my friend's approached me to. We're going to
get a couple of tents and so I'll have the
gentleman's accessories. I have a friend who sells shaving gear,
(48:24):
and so he and I are going to share a tent.
And then there's some other both women's jewelry and handmade
soaps and candles and things like that. I love it,
and I was super bummed I was missing it. I
was already bummed, but uh, you know, duty calls in
any case. Jason, thank you so much. What a treat
for us to get to hang out with somebody who's
a pro on this stuff. Well, thank you very much.
(48:47):
I love it. Uh, and we're mat will bid you
with you there. He had it. If you have thought
about venturing into ventage dressing. Maybe this we'll give you
some ideas and inspiration. And if you've been dabbling in
historical clothing, we hope this has given you some new ideas. Holly,
(49:10):
do you also have listener mail to top all this off?
I do, indeed, And I also want to mention to
our listeners in the show notes that fabulous James Bond
website really talked about his suits in detail, uh and
serious detail about like the tailoring and who did it.
That is going to be in our show notes, So
never fear. My listener mail is from our listener Nada,
(49:30):
and she says, Hi, Tracy and Holly, I have been
a listener to your podcast since the past year and
I absolutely love it, but this episode was particularly exciting
to hear she's referring to the Pastry War. She says.
The reason behind that is that I'm Mexican and I
also live in Vera, Cruz. I enjoyed a lot listening
to this again since I studied the Pastry War in
high school and I haven't revisited that bit of history
(49:51):
again until now. And I actually didn't know all that
you mentioned about Santa Anna's leg Also hearing my hometown
mentioned in your podcast was amusing and kind of a
real since you rarely you're a very Vera Cruz outside
of Mexico's news, I actually visit San Juanda Lua, which
I always worried that I'm pronouncing terribly. That's my note,
fairly often since it is now a museum and one
(50:12):
of the tourist highlights of Vera Cruz, So every time
someone comes to visit me, I take them there. Uh.
Speaking of San Juanda Alua, it would be pretty awesome
if you did a podcast of the place sometime along
with this episode. It has a lot of stories to offer.
As you mentioned, it was first a fourth but later
it became a prison, and let me tell you, being
a prisoner and there must have been the worst thing
(50:32):
that could happen to you. When you visit now, the
tourist guide will explain to you how the prison was
divided between different levels heaven, purgatory, and hell, and each
of them was awful in its own way. The walls
are very thick and the cells only have a few
very tiny windows, so if you so, you didn't get
a lot of fresh air in there. To make it worse.
Vera Cruz has a very hot and humid tropical weather,
(50:54):
and this was practically at the sea, so the prison
cells were always full of salty water and human waste
from the prisoners. It was a disgusting place full of disease,
and if you add to that the tortures of the
print that the prisoners had to endure, well it is
no surprise that people didn't last very long there. It
was one of the most feared places to end up in.
It was said that no one could escape. It was
(51:14):
well guarded, and on top of that, there were sharks around,
so your chances of getting out in one piece we're
pretty much non existent. There is one urban legend, though,
about one man who managed to get out of San
Juanda Lua not once, but twice. His nickname was chuco
Al Roto. Again, I hope I'm saying that correctly, and
he's remembered as some sort of a Mexican Robin Hood.
(51:35):
Although we know that he definitely existed, details of how
his life ended are actually unclear, and that's why he's
such a popular figure. Anyway, I just wanted to share
all this with you just to show how very excited
I was with this episode. If you didn't know this
little bit of history that I shared. I hope you
find it interesting and maybe it encourages you to put
it on the Maybe we'll do an episode on this
someday list. And if you did know, I'm sorry for
(51:55):
the long email. I did not know. I had never
heard that story before, and it does sound really fascinating,
so I do kind of want to look into it. Um.
Thank you Naa for like a local take on something
that we talked about in the episode. We don't always
get those, particularly when they are outside of the US,
so that's some cool insight into sort of that that
prison and then Fortress's place in the bigger story of
(52:17):
Mexican history. If you would like to write to us,
you can absolutely do that, and you should. You can
do that at History Podcast at house to works dot com.
You can connect to this on Facebook at Facebook dot
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(52:39):
you can do that. That is how stuff works dot com.
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If you would like to visit us at our little
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(53:00):
dot com for more on miss thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works dot com. M m mmmmm
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm tracybe Wilson, and today we're
actually getting something a little different. We have an interview,
but it is with an old friend of mine who
(00:21):
I'm lucky enough to know because he knows a great
deal about historical men's wear. His name is Jason Merrill,
and Jason is one of those people who look intapper
just about any time you see him. He is never
ever sloppy, and he knows a lot, specifically about gentleman's accessories. Well,
and I'm also really excited. This is a yet another
thing that you have recorded and I have not heard yet.
So I'm extremely excited because so many of our fashion
(00:43):
episodes are about women's fashion, so it is great we're
gonna have a men's one. And since we are coming
up on holloween, when you know people might want to
go with the historical look for their costume, and then
it's the holiday season where maybe you might want to
upgrade your look with a little bit of a historical player.
Perfect time to discuss how all that goes together. Yeah,
(01:04):
and this is really just a chat. It's an interview,
but it stays very casual. You'll discover early on that
Jason I have known each other a very long time,
and it is really full of fascinating little tips and tidbits.
So you're going to get a lot of interesting knowledge
that you may not have expected been this first section.
We're gonna talk a little bit about Jason's backstory and
how he got into historical clothing, and they're also some
(01:27):
little trivia bits in there, including where ties come from, uh,
and how military clothing influenced men's fashion. So let's hit it.
So now we have a delightful treat and that we
have a special guest and in studio no less UH
and it is a good friend of mine, Jason Merrill. Welcome, Jason,
(01:49):
thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. I
had a revelation recently that I have known you almost
twenty years. Yes, Jason, just to give you a brief story,
it was my husband's roommate when my husband and I met,
So Jason, I have known each other for a very
long time, and it doesn't seem like it. It seems
like I just met you recently because we see so
little of each other sadly normally once a year at
(02:11):
Dragon Con. If you taped together all of our interactions,
it might equally year. I don't know if you remember this,
but we were moving. I was moving out the same
day you were moving in. It was literally passing in
the door with boxes. I do remember. It was me
and my crazy heard of people. But we have Jason
(02:33):
here today not to talk about moving or our history,
but instead to talk about something else from history, which
is gentlemen's accessories. And he's really kind of a pro
because he lives the gentleman's accessory historical lifestyle. I do
my best. I tried, I think you do well. So first,
will you just tell us a little bit about sort
of when you got interested in this and specifically when
(02:54):
you got really interested in gentlemen's accessories. Some of it
goes back to this was ninety eight when my wife
Julie and I we were getting married and she was
having a dress made and I already owned a tuxedo.
I was not going to wear something I already owned
to my wedding. I wanted something fancier, and we both
(03:16):
thought that Victorian style was a little more formal than formal,
so I had a a waistcoat made so I could
wear a pocket watch, a little double breasted waistcoat, and
a calf link velvet rock coat. And as part of that,
(03:36):
the seamstress made several waistcoats as samples, and I really
liked wearing those waistcoats around due to the reaction that
they got, so I've been I was kind of wearing
steampunkish type stuff long before that actually became affing. And
then from there, I had some friends that threw a
(03:56):
lolita convention a couple of years ago called Frill, and
they need to do some gentlemen's programming, and I offered
to come in and talk about accessories and how to
tie ascots and botas and things like that. And in
my search for samples, I had been buying lots of
things off the day so I could get a wide
variety of items, and I ended up doing a table
(04:19):
at the convention because their boyfriends and husbands and what
have you had nothing to you know, it was all
freely dresses and all of that stuff. So I figured out,
let me give them at least a little oasis in
the middle of everything else, And so from there, I've
been looking into you know, I've I've started a little
sideline where I sell such things. I am a purveyor
(04:42):
of of gentlemen's furnishings. So do you have a favorite
era in men's fashion Historically? Um, it kind of slides,
But I do like the Victorian and the Edwardian because
that really is a much more formal, more elegant era,
shall we say, But the just the gentleman stuff through
(05:05):
the twenties and thirties and back when men actually wore
hats and I look horrible in hats. I just I've
not found a style that actually works for me. That
is sort of when men's fashion kind of got an upgrade. Yes,
in terms of like there prior to that, it was
largely the military stuff where men really got fancy outfits.
And that's that's primarily what has driven your uh, I guess,
(05:34):
uh casual, not casual, but your your non military gentleman's
where the public life takes its cue from the military life.
And that was back um in the Napoleon era. Women
really liked the look of those soldiers. That's a dashing figure,
(05:57):
that's a really nice, like very appealing silhouette. And the
guys that were not in the military started taking their
cues from that. They would wear the tighter trousers and
they would wear the the what we call a tie
actually came out of the Croatian military and their cravat,
(06:19):
and that became a very popular public thing. Nice because
they're eating correct of military and you still want the women, Yes,
you have to emulate the style that they're into. Uh,
what do you think is the best starter piece for
someone who wants to kind of borrow from historical gentleman's
(06:41):
fashion and add a little historical flare in their ensembles
day to day. I guess there's there's two answers here.
One for a lot of guys, it would be start
wearing button down shirts. Take that first step and actually
start dressing a little nicer. But once you're once you've
(07:03):
gotten comfortable to those sorts of things, I mean, I
think a pocket watches is a great you know, now,
admittedly you have to be wearing like a waistcoat or
something like that, but your jeans have a watch pocket
in them, and there are the ribbon fobs that are
specifically meant for that type of thing, that that short pocket.
(07:24):
They're either at the waist or in the I have
a suit that has a watch pocket built into the
waistband of the pants. Yeah, I've made trousers for my beloved.
That are the things that are historical trousers. And when
you you'll look at old pictures and you'll see that
little ribbon coming from underneath the waistcoat, and a lot
of people don't understand what that is. I think that's
(07:44):
the case of a lot of historical stuff. You're like,
I have no idea what's going on there. But then
when you actually take a peek, you realize, oh, this
has a great utility. One very simple thing. For example,
if you're used to wearing suits all day but you
want to take it to the next level, a little
color bar holds the points of your collar together. Now,
(08:07):
with a bow tie, it's almost completely hidden, but with
a straight tie you see the edges of it peek out.
But what it does is it holds you're not up higher,
it holds it all up and straight and a really
nice It's not that it really droops otherwise, but it
really does. It helps the tie pop. But that little
(08:30):
glint of metal on both sides, and the fact that
it's a tighter, sharper appearance. Yeah, it keeps your collar
position so crisp that you kind of can't help but
look one, it makes you look like you have great
posture even if you don't. And too, you just look
a little more put together. I have to admit when
when I put on my suit or even like a waistcoat,
(08:51):
it's like putting on armor, you know, and you do
want to present your best appearance. You want to you'll
straighten up and you'll you know it just it just
helps present that united front. See that's why I like
wearing historical corsets. You can actually be slumping, but no
one can tell. It's all fixed and held in play
(09:12):
with a well fitted waistcoat on One things that drives
me absolutely nuts as seeing gentleman wearing a waistcoat that
is too small. It's pulling very awkwardly across the front.
But you also have shirt blousing out from underneath, and
it's supposed to be this smooth silhouette. Don't do that.
(09:36):
Just make sure your shirts tucked in and your waistcoat
actually covers your waist. The whole point of the waistcoat
was to hide your waist, so you shouldn't see your
belt buckle. You shouldn't see the edge of your shirt
poking out on this side. That's just completely opposite from
the purpose of the waistcoat in the first place. Well,
(09:57):
you've kind of jumped the line on one of my question,
but you also gave me an idea on another question
that I'm gonna ask you later. So my next question
is going to be And since we've already covered the
shirts sticking out from under the waistcoat, you can go
to something else if you want, which is are there
any major pitfalls that newcomers to historical men's where really
need to be careful about that They may not naturally
think of, Um will fit fits very important anyway, and
(10:24):
a lot of people just don't understand. You know, the
reason why your Hollywood stars look absolutely fantastic and just
a T shirt and jeans is that it's been tailored
to them. They have shoppers who know their measurements, and
they know that if they buy something, for example, if
they buy a shirt that fits in the shoulders, you know,
across the back, everything else can be taken in and
(10:47):
tucked and tailored. What have you? So, knowing your measurements
and knowing what what does fit and what you can
get altered means when you start to wear uh, historical
stuff like the waistcoat, you'll know the proper length. You'll
know to get something that's not too big so you're
(11:07):
swimming in it, and not too small that it looks
like you're about to bust out any moment. Well, and
this gets into that area, and it happens in both
men's where and women's where where. Um, there's a little
bit of vanity shrinkage in your measurements, yes, and some
of it is aspirational. Someone will say, oh, I'm gonna
drop five pounds and then this will fit perfect. But
(11:28):
if it takes longer than you think, or if your
life gets busy and you can't maintain whatever you're eating
and exercise regiment is you've basically, particularly in historical garments,
which are usually a little bit pricier if you want
to get quality, you have basically spent money on a
thing that makes you look like an unhappy sausage. But
as an example, I have a vented suit ipot and
(11:49):
I got it via eBay u k so it had
been custom tailored for someone in the sixties. It happens
to fit me perfectly because I've got really weird measurements
and they had really weird measurements, and that's how I
got it by auction, because nobody else did on it.
It wouldn't fit them. But the when you're having something
(12:10):
like that made you take into account that you're going
to drift sizes. So the pants have built in suspenders.
They're just you know, elastic and adjustable, but they also
have the side adjusters so if your waist slides up
a bit or slides down a bit, and have those
(12:31):
side adjusters. And when you're buying things like oh, you know,
jeans or a suit these days, it's pretty much that
size and that's it. But if you if you are
careful and you know what to look for, you can
find them with the side tabs and things like that.
One of the things that I had never noticed until
(12:52):
recently was, and this is just an odd sideline thing,
but James Bond doctor now he always had his Sean
Connery had his suits made by a guy named Anthony Sinclair,
and he had the pants done with the side tabs,
so he was never wearing bracers or or a belt,
(13:18):
but he would button his shoulder holster to the unused
button his pants where these side adjusters were, and I
had always seen them, you know, I remember him buttoning,
you know, unbuttoning his shoulder holster and taking it off,
and I was wondering what that button was. And then
later on, you know, I was reading about his suits
(13:42):
and it's like, of course, that makes perfect sense, but
I had never you know, as a kid seeing it,
you have no idea. I also just love that there's
a place to read about his suits. There's an entire
website devoted to the suits of James Bond. Of course
there is, and it is a brilliant source, not just
for you know, what he's wearing, but the history behind
(14:05):
the various tough styles and you know why he was
wearing this particular type of tuxedo, jacket or ensemble at
a particular point in time. If you had a magic
(14:32):
wand and you could choose one historical fashion or growing practice,
and this could be men or women that could be
brought back into the modern era, what would you pick. Um,
That's actually kind of hard because a lot of what
used to be done is still being done. It's just
not his widespread you know, I think every gentleman or
(14:54):
want to be gentleman, should go and have a straight
razor shave. Oh yeah, Actually, go for the whole package.
Find a find a salon that you know, get a trim,
but get a straight razor shave, the full deal with
the hot towels, but get a manicure at the same time. Pamper,
pamper yourself. I mean women do it all the time.
(15:16):
Guys we need to do the same thing. And I
can't tell you how relaxing it is to have that,
you know, the hot towels on your face and just
nice and calm and having a professional shave like that.
It all. It helps you realize what you can be
doing at home. I mean when you're when you're a
(15:36):
guy who shaves, it's something you're gonna do every single day,
so you might as well make it something that's enjoyable.
Turn it into a bit of a ritual. And while
you don't have to do, say the hot towel yourself,
you can pay attention as they're doing their routine and
you can go, Okay, well they use this pre shave oil.
(15:57):
Maybe I can try that, and I shave with a
double edge safety razor at home. But I do the
appreciave oil. I have a brush. I like, um, experimenting
with different types of shaving creams and preparations and what
have you. But there's something really comforting about a really
(16:18):
really hot brush and lather going on. And it's just
particularly it's something where you really like the scent of
the shaving cream. Yeah, that's to help start your day.
It's like, Okay, this is nice. I've never thought about that,
but it makes sense. You know. It is a great
(16:39):
ritual and it's uh and and I'm with you. I
think everybody should get equal pampering opportunities. Yeah, uh so
I love it get a nice straight razor shaved gents.
So here's an interesting thing. Um, you kind of alluded
to this when you mentioned that there are a lot
of greaming habits that we've retained over the years. And
we know men's wear similarly has not gone through the
(17:01):
same wide swings in terms of trends that women's has.
We know, at no point did you attach cages to
your behind to look huge in the posterior. Uh, don't
do it, but we we shoved ourselves into pants that
were far too tight. We still do that, do you
ever feel like you wish that men's wear had had
(17:22):
a little more variety, Like do you ever feel like
you got shafted in terms of your options in historical clothing?
Not really. I mean it's yeah, you could think that, well,
but it's it's a it's a hard thing to say
because there have been attempts at it and they've just
(17:42):
never stuck around because there's nothing like that classic suit. Yeaw,
they shifted over time, you know, obviously there um. I
guess one of one of the best examples of casual
slash sporting items shifting into businesswear is the button down collar.
(18:05):
Brooks Brothers brought that over in the eighteen hundreds because
they saw polo players doing that in England and they
would sew buttons onto their shirts to keep their collars
from flapping into their face while they are playing polo.
So basically that's sportswear. But now it's considered such fancy pants,
(18:29):
unicorn clothing option. Correct. Brooks Brothers has made that into
a fancy option, And I have to admit, I see,
you know, publicity photos of C. E O S and
they're wearing button down shirts and I'm just like shaking
my head. You can do. What they need is a
little collar bar correct a problem. You know. Now that
(18:52):
I've got the collar bars, I've also realized the last
couple of French cup shirts that I've bought have very
widespread dollars spread color. You can use it because the
collar is meant to be spread. But that means you've
got more options for the knots on your ties. You
can make it, you know, you can make them a
look thicker. You need to balance your length of collar
(19:15):
with your tie. Kno, you need to balance the length
of your tie with the lapel on your jack. Yeah,
you don't want to know massive seventies tie with a
thin sixties collar, which kind of makes me chuckle. Uh.
And I'll tell you a side story about I was
working on a video shoot completely unrelated to work, as
(19:36):
a favor for somebody, and one of our characters had
to have his tie, just a regular tie tied, and
he not will do There was only one person on
the entire cast and crew that could tie a tie.
I can do them, but it's real floppy, gloppy. It's
not really good for film. So we had to call
in the pro and I have tied this poor boys tie.
(19:56):
I um, I was going to an event. Uh it
was for for an anime convention. Was throwing a semi formal.
So I was walking up to the event and someone
came running up to me and said, can you tie
a bow tie? And I'm like did you point? And
I was wearing it and I was like, yes, yes
(20:19):
I can. And they brought their friend over and I
showed them how to tie the tie. And I ran
into them later at a completely different convention and they
were like, bow tie guy, thank you so much. See
not difficult skills, but it took me forever to learn
how to tie a bow tie. And I was doing
(20:41):
things a little backwards, and I watched all the videos
and I just I couldn't figure it out. But then
I ran across a vintage diagram on how to tie
an ascot. This is the version of an ascot where
you've got the not in front and you cross you know,
you pull it through and you crossed the peace is
and you do a tie tack or a and ask
(21:03):
got penned to hold it all in place and a.
The way the diagram was done, one side of the
tie was white and the other was black, and it
was looking at that, going oh, well, here's where I've
been doing it wrong. And then I realized my I
bought a basically a casual bow tie because I've been
trying with a black silk black tie, I mean, and
(21:24):
that's official black tie. And I tried the casual one
and I got it immediately, and I'm like, what's going
on here? And I tried a couple of times and
I kept getting it. I swapped over to the black
tie and it was smaller, about a half an inch,
so that tolerances were much less and I can tie it,
(21:45):
but I have to be a little more careful. And
I realized that I was poke trying to poke, you know,
one piece through the other the wrong direction, and that's
why I kept just coming apart on it. You just
needed a starter tie, like you're training wheels tie. And
I keep meaning to have a friend make me one
that's like that. I want to have an ascot made
that has one side white and the other side black,
(22:06):
and the same with a bow tie, and the same
with a long tie, so I can show people that
the panel you need to do it cons is try
tying well. I do um uh. A basic gentleman's Successories panel,
and then I talked. I talked about how to tie
ties and ascots and what the differences are, and how
(22:29):
to do your ascot pin you know, because it's it's
not as simple as just sticking it through. You have
to go through the front layer. You have to go
through the inner layer. You have to go through your
shirt back out, through the shirt, back out through the
inner layer right and then pin it correct. A lot
(22:49):
of people either just do it through the tie itself
and therefore it still kind of flaps around, or they'll
do with you and they'll poke it right out the front,
so you see the the pin cap or end cap
on the outside of everything. And really you want just
the the decorative bit showing and not the not the
(23:09):
utility underpinning. Nice Um, I'll diverge a minute so quickly.
The difference between a cravat and a tie and an ascot.
The basically, and this happens with just about everything, is
the terms become generic over time from people either not
using them correctly or just misunderstanding. But basically, the Coroatian
(23:34):
original is what gave us the term cravat, which now
means just about any type of necktie. Your ascot is
a particular style of necktie where it's got two blades.
For example, your standard long tie has a wider end
(23:55):
and a thinner end that goes behind, and ascot has
to blade aids of the same size with either just
a thin piece of cloth in the middle that goes
behind your neck, or it's all the same width kind
that thin piece just has been um gathered and stitched,
(24:16):
or I've seen them sometimes pleaded down. Pleat was the
word I was looking for. So that's it's pleaded, and
that's what goes behind your neck. And then with the
just like with your long tie, there are many different
knots and ways to tie it. With the ascot. You
can tie it like a bow tie, and then you
pull the ends on through and that gives you the
(24:37):
pieces that you can pin and down in front. You
can leave it like a big bow if you wish,
which I think there's an iteration of the joker that
did that correct? Correct? Then there is the you can
tie an ascot like a regular long tie with basically
the windsor where you just flip the end over and
(25:00):
and flipping through. Yeah, so it gives you it looks
like a standard neck tie. Not. It's just you really
should be wearing a waistcoat with that, because it's only
about this. You know, it comes down mid chest right
there at your sternament. It looks kind of silly if
you're not wearing anything over right. Well, but you can
also tie it like a neckerchief or just like well, yeah,
(25:23):
just loop it inside your collar. Yeah. When you mentioned
waistcoat right after talking about how words have gotten a
little dicey and fuzzy, I'll tell you a brief story
of I was making a costume for a gentleman. It
was Victorian version of a comic book figure that he
wanted to do a custom and we had been talking
all this time, and there were things he was saying
that wasn't They just weren't making sense to me. And
(25:44):
then I realized he didn't know that waistcoat did not
mean your coat. That it was more like the best piece.
So those best and waistcoat are kind of interchangeable, and
you have to make sure people you know, you're on
the same page. It's like, okay, when you mean this,
you are talking about this, yes, so um this one.
(26:06):
I know your answer because you talked about it briefly. Beforehand.
But what, in your opinion, is the most uncomfortable historical
men's garment the the collar in in the old style detachable,
very stiff collar. Those things are crazy stiff, like you
can almost use them as a tire. The invention of
(26:27):
the soft collar is one of the greatest you know
that should be celebrated from the rooftops. And for for
our wedding, I did have a detachable collar shirt and
by the end of the day it had cut me
at the back and sides because I just wasn't used
to wearing and wearing them for long periods of time.
(26:50):
It's really uncomfortable. Now. The the other one that goes
along with that would be suck garters. Oh oh, do
you get dig into this in It removes hair, particularly
over time, it'll just wear a thin spot because once
again you're not used to doing it. H And I
(27:12):
still can't decide whether sock garters are the perfect application
of scientific principle to a fashion need or just out
and out comedy or of torture. Well, yeah, they are
tortured well, but a lot of fashion is torture devices
(27:33):
one way or the other. Your collars your tight course,
it's your well, a good course, it shouldn't hurt, and
that's the prosperitizer. Of course. I think one of the
reasons why people are resistant to wearing fancier clothes is
whatever experience they have had with them in the past
(27:54):
has been uncomfortable. Yes, they would get nice shoes to
wear to church every week, but that would be the
only time they would wear them. So for two hours
on a Sunday, you're cramming your feet into these things
that may not have fit perfectly, but you're not wearing
them enough to wear them in, or you're you know,
having to wear a shirt and a tie in your
(28:15):
shirt collar may not be the proper width, so it's
a little too tight, and then you add a tie
on top of that. But if you're if your clothing fits,
it's comfortable. That's why fit is so important. Yeah, that,
and that comes up a lot, particularly in historical garments,
I think, much less so than modern clothing, where fit
(28:36):
is super important, but we have a lot more nits
in the mix. We have a lot more stretch and
ease baked into patterns, Whereas when you wear a fitted
historical garment like the arm's eye, that circle that makes up.
You know, the armhole where your arm in your sleeve meats. Uh,
if that is like tight on like a victorian garment
(28:56):
or um, like an eighteenth century gown or something. If
it's off just a little, raising your arms is almost impossible.
But if it's in the right place, you have pretty
smooth range of movement. Yeah, it's but it's also when
you're doing the historical clothing. For the most part, it's
being custom made for you and you can make sure
(29:17):
things fit appropriately. Where when you're dealing with vintage clothes,
you really need to know your fit going in first,
you need to know your sizes. Um. So, now that
we've talked about the uncomfortable stuff, what is the most
comfortable item of men's wear that is no longer worn
in your opinion? Uh? Well, honestly, the ascot. When you're
(29:42):
a nice silk ascot tucked into your shirt, I mean,
it's a much more casual look than a full tie,
and it's so very comfortable. People just don't you know
there's a reason why you well, they are still worn today.
I mean that's none of the of stuff is truly
completely just flat out disappeared, but ascots are they're really comfortable. Um,
(30:09):
So I'm going backwards a little bit because of the
question you made me think of when you talked about
the shirts poking out from ant of the waistcoats. What
is your thought on the mix of kind of modern
and historical, Like, does it make you crazy to see
someone in a T shirt and a really nice waistcoat
or are you down with kind of mixing up the
air is a little bit he's making a face, So
I think I know the I used to when I
(30:32):
was in college. I would wear T shirts, you know,
like a playing white T shirt and a waistcoat and
things like that. I think it has its place, but
you shouldn't be trying to make that more than what
it is. That's all a casual look. At the moment,
I'm wearing what I tend to wear normally to work,
(30:54):
which is a waistcoat, a bow tie, you know, a
nice white dress shirt, and uh, nice dress shoes, polishable
you know, black leather shoes. But I'm also wearing dark
colored jeans. And it's basically I think the the overall
rule is that you can add one less formal item
(31:18):
to an ensemble more than one, then it is very
much casual, and it depends on where you're going to
be wearing this. If you're going out for an evening
with friends, that works, you know, a nice a nice
blazer over a solid color T shirt. That's a good look,
(31:39):
you know, particularly if it's maybe a the T shirt
has like a higher collar, the mock turtleneck type of thing.
But that doesn't work in a situation where you really
should be wearing a top. It's just it's it's to me,
it's situational. I don't mind the mixing, but it depends
(32:00):
on how far you're trying to take it right. It's
not appropriate for all venues. Correct correct and dressing well
is a sign of respect for both the people you're
going to be meeting and interacting with, but you also
need to respect the event itself. And and this is
(32:21):
something I run across because I run a black tie
invited formal event for Anime Weekend Atlanta. It's still a
formal event even though it's at an anime con. We
ask you can wear a costume, but it needs to
be what that character would wear to a formal event.
Not just because you like this character and you want
(32:41):
to wear what they wear, but you need to think
about the tone of the overall event, and it's a
sign of respect for the event itself, but for everybody
else at the event who has gone to the trouble
to find a tuxedo or to make a ball gown
in their character's call. I like to think of it
as kind of it's it's formal stealth cosplay. You take
(33:06):
the colors of your character and you echo them in
the clothing you would wear to that event, just like
the I guess the Disney Bound where you go to
the park and say you're you're not actually in a
Peter Pan costume, but everything you're wearing is the proper
colors to match what Peter Pan would wear or aerial
(33:29):
or you know. And I've seen some fantastic examples of that,
both for casual clothes for wandering the parts, but also
at our formal events, where people find the right you know,
for example, it will be a black tuxedo, but they
ll ad the proper color waistcoat and tie and accessories
to match their character's colors. I love it, and that
(33:51):
to me, it's it. When it's done right, you're able
to exercise your creativity and beyond just oh, I want
to be X, but it's what do I have to
do to be X in this situation where I am
properly attired and I am respectful of both the event
(34:12):
and everyone else that's there. I love it. Um. I
have a question that one of my friends wanted me
to ask, just because I said, do you any questions
you would ask somebody who's an expert in historical men's way? Okay?
And he said, what is the actual function of a
monocle other than stereotypical shorthand for fancy? Well, I mean
(34:32):
it's it's I wear. I mean it's it's eyeglasses for
you know, if you have, say myopia in one eye,
you get your prescription for that. I but a lot
of times it's purely for magnification purposes and you don't
wear it. The wearing it all the time is shorthand
(34:55):
for fancy, but you don't wear them all the time.
But I think it's it's shorthand for cartoon fans. Yes. Yes,
if you've ever tried to wear a monocle for any
period of time, you understand that that doesn't work. It's uncomfortable.
They just pop out. Not for driving, not a corrective
lens for driving. Now I have one, but it is
it is a just a magnifier, but it's nice to
(35:18):
have that, you know, on a loop around your neck
and then when you need it, you just pull it
out and it's there. Well. I always wonder too, if
it's someone like me who has equally mediocre vision in
both eyes. But I often don't wear corrective lenses because
I like the world fuzzy. But there are times when
I need a little bit of magnification or you know, clarity,
(35:38):
like if I'm looking at something on that during a presentation,
then I could use a monocle. Yes, yes, you could.
Or I have a pair of pincenay Yeah. And when
I got them, I thought that they were just somebody's
really weird prescription, and I took them to my eye
doctor with the express purpose of asking, could I get
(35:59):
my prescription in these? And I could you know, clean
up and they're missing the court pieces that go over
the next But she looked at him and said, no,
these are both three times magnifiers. This was not someone's
every day where. This was probably a jeweler or a watchmaker,
someone who needed that type of magnification. So I've left
(36:22):
them as is, and they're wonderfully. If I need to
read something and I've got my at some point I
will need reading glasses, so I've got a little bit
like I am exactly so, and that's what I'm wearing,
my contacts or glasses. But I can whip out the
pin snah and read the incredibly tiny fine print. You know,
(36:44):
you're trying to see who manufactured something, and you can
just pop those out and they're perfect. Those little identifying
numbers on Apple products seem like they're shrinking every year. Um.
Another question I got from that same friend, my friend Brian,
was why did the wrist watch became fashionable over the
pocket watch World War One? There you go, We're done.
(37:08):
When you were in the trenches fighting the First World War,
it was much easier to take your pocket watch and
strap it to your wrist so you could quickly see
what time it was rather than fumbling through your pockets.
And because the soldiers. Once again, the soldiers did it,
(37:31):
and private individuals saw that and said I want to
do the same thing. But it was it was the
fact that it was a necessity during the First World
War for people to do that because the only watches
you had where the pocket watches? Now, um, they shifted
to you know, they started making more and more wrist watches,
(37:53):
and pocket watches became less popular. But there's still I
mean I'm wearing one now. There's still out there and
available and popular, and I like them. I am admittedly
kind of breaking a rule because I'm wearing both a
pocket watch and a wristwatch. How many? Well, right, but
it's I guess it's It's also one of those fashion
(38:14):
rules is you, you know, only where one time piece,
only wear one, just like you would only wear one
set of glasses, you would only wear one tie, bar
you only wear one tie. There's a certain point of
going overboard. Now you can be the bow tie and
the multiple clock skuy right, Well, I have to admit
(38:34):
there have been times when I've been wearing stuff and
wanted to demonstrate the different methods of wearing a bow tie.
I mean not a bow tie but a pocket watch,
because I have a single Albert chain on now, which
it has a T bar on one end that it's
in your buttonhole. It's got the long chain that leads
(38:56):
to the pocket watch that's in a pocket, and then
there's a drop on it. Or a fob, and in
this case it's a it's a vintage watch key that
would have been used to wind your watch. Gotcha, this
watch doesn't require one. But I've I've found several examples
of these. But you can wear it in your upper pocket,
(39:18):
you can wear it in your the side pockets on
the waistcoat. But then there's so many different types of chains.
You've got a double Albert where you've got too long
chains where you would attach like a pocket knife or
some of the item on the other side, and you
would still have the t bar in the middle. There
are long chains that you would just thread through your button.
(39:40):
There are the ribbon fobs that you could wear in
either the waist level pocket, or you could, uh, for example,
run the tea through your bootineer and wear the watch
in your jacket pocket. Oh, I don't think I've ever
seen that before. I'm sure I haven't. I bet I
haven't noticed. In Go Mas Adams he would wear I
(40:03):
feel like a fool. Well, I never I never realized that.
But there's at least one example where he and Mortisha
are dancing and he is dancing so exuberantly that his
pocket watch flips out of his jacket pocket and is
just dangling there. But I've always wondered what that little
chain was. And then I saw him dancing, But oh,
(40:23):
that's where he wears his watch. And then I keep
running across these watch chains. And if all you knew
of wearing in your pocket, you've realized that's far too short.
It just doesn't make sense because it wouldn't go from
the button into the pocket with enough depth for the
watch to sit there. Now it's fear to wear in
your jacket, your boot. Okay, now it's the bonus round.
(40:50):
What other yummy and delightful little factoids do you want
to share? I've already run across a few of them,
like the uh button down collars, and the the width
of the tie and the width of your lapel. When
when I've been looking through that that big box of ties,
it's almost impossible to tell the era a tie has
(41:13):
come from. But what you can not buy, you can
tell not by the width of the time, because that
almost remains kind of standard. There will always be really
wide ones, there will always be really skinny one. You
can tell by the length of the time. Oh yeah,
the forties, we're much shorter ties and then they got
(41:34):
longer as time went on. But even then that's still
an inexact. You know, manufacturers put dates on things. Please
you don't think it's important, but years from now someone
will be running across your items and want to know
(41:54):
when it was manufactured. Yeah, well then you also they'll
get into the thing where a lot of things are manufactured.
They are either made by like, you know, one person
doing a one off or I know I run into
a lot of those when I shop vintage, Like I
can tell like, oh, somebody made this, you know, it's
(42:16):
really hard to age. Usually I end up having to
try to guess based on the textile that was used.
Like I can say, oh, this is you know, a
slubby silk that was popular in the late sixties. You know.
But but even that it's a guest because a lot
of times, especially in modern era, people would like to
reproduce those old popular textiles. That's an important point though.
(42:40):
Knowing when certain materials were used as the primary material
for a certain items does help date because you know,
at least you know, rayon was invented, you know, in
the forties, so it's not going to be something from
the twenties or thirties because this wasn't around or actually,
(43:02):
well right on is probably invented earlier than that, but
I don't know. I I associated start with forties fifties,
but I have no basis for that. That's my brain
shuffling stuff around, So don't take any of that is Um,
do you ever go bananas? Like when people are mixing
matchy with their eras, even if it's all historical, does
(43:24):
it bug you? I mean, let's say, outside of they're
not trying to represent oh I'm Victorian, and they clearly
have on something that's out of time, but just in general,
if their style is get old and they mixed too
many periods, does it make you cuckoo a little bit?
I mean, well, for example, and this is mainly not
knowing what they really are or how to wear them right,
(43:47):
but seeing people wear really thick neck ties as if
they are ascots just looks odd. I don't know if
I've ever seen that, but now I'm gonna keep an
eye out. And the other thing is, um, I have
seen people where it's I've heard it referred to as
(44:07):
different things, but I know it as a stock that's
your neckcloth. That's just really, really really really long, and
you wrap it around your neck a couple of times,
and if you only wrap it, say twice, you get
a really big bow. If you wrap it three times,
you get a smaller bow. There are many different things
you can do with it, but what you shouldn't do
(44:29):
is just wrap it around once and loop it over
like it's an ascot to tuck into your collar, because
then you have a piece that goes down to about
your knees that you're having the stuff inside your shirt.
Because I had to help somebody with that because they
thought it was just an ascot. But it just seemed
(44:49):
wrong to them too, because it was too long. And
it's like, well, that's because it is. You're supposed to
wear it this particular way, but they didn't want to
loop it around there, you know, they didn't like things
on their neck like that. Right, Well, here's something you
can do to wear it and not be is sight
with it. But it's also not you know, you're not
having to stuff it down and wrap it around your waist.
(45:11):
That's like maybe the big piece of wisdom, right, like,
let logic be your guide. If it seems really funky,
you're probably doing it wrong. Yes, And then take take
that step back and maybe try and do a little
bit of research and take luck. I mean, but but
a lot of big problem is people selling things mislabeled
(45:31):
because they don't understand what they are. I can't tell
you how many cuff links I have run across and
those are air quotes with my fingers that are actually
shirt studs because they have there's a there's a certain
style of shirt stud that has a long piece behind
the stud that's got a little spring loaded bit. Those
(45:53):
are studs to hold your shirt together or your waistcoat together.
They are not cuff links. They don't work as cufflings.
If you even try them once as cuff links, you
will understand, oh, this must be something else flapping. And
yet you will find them all over eBay and Etsy
and other know in antique stores labeled as cut lengths
(46:17):
actually studs. That's one of the things that even got
me into buying things as examples, because when I was
trying to find items for myself, I kept finding things
mislabeled and misidentified, like a a very long stock slash
neckcloth sold as an ascot. Well, mascots are one thing.
(46:38):
They're the double bladed a stock has no blades. It's
just one really long piece of cloth. It doesn't been
around forever exactly. I mean, if you look at colonial ware,
if you look at European Rococo era, they're just they're
floating about like and they really look great, but you
(46:59):
have to learn and how to wear them. And time.
I finally bought myself one. It's kind of a lavender
slight purple, just so I could learn how to play
with it. And it's you know, you can do all
manner of those. You can still do a standard. You know,
you can loop it around your neck a couple of times,
but you can do any kind of not once you've
done that, and they're just there. They are, I guess
(47:21):
more regency era, but they definitely add a certain amount
of class or whatever you're wearing. I love it. I
love it. Jason. Thank you so much for sharing all
of your vast knowledge with us. And I know that's
not actually all of it. There's tons more. Well, this
was fun. I'm glad to have the chance. Where can
people find you? Well? Uh, I run a company called
(47:41):
Blackbird Finery and where blackbird Finery dot com and I'm
on et scene, Facebook, my sideline is Blackbird Finery, and
I occasionally do shows here in town, like the Speakeasy,
elector Swing or steampunk events. And I will be uh
joining with some other folks to vend at the Sunday
(48:04):
in the Park at Oakland Cemetery in October. Oh, it's
just spectacular. I'm missing it this year. I keep always
getting scheduled out of town. When it happened, I've never been.
Oh it's my friend's approached me to. We're going to
get a couple of tents and so I'll have the
gentleman's accessories. I have a friend who sells shaving gear,
(48:24):
and so he and I are going to share a tent.
And then there's some other both women's jewelry and handmade
soaps and candles and things like that. I love it,
and I was super bummed I was missing it. I
was already bummed, but uh, you know, duty calls in
any case. Jason, thank you so much. What a treat
for us to get to hang out with somebody who's
a pro on this stuff. Well, thank you very much.
(48:47):
I love it. Uh, and we're mat will bid you
with you there. He had it. If you have thought
about venturing into ventage dressing. Maybe this we'll give you
some ideas and inspiration. And if you've been dabbling in
historical clothing, we hope this has given you some new ideas. Holly,
(49:10):
do you also have listener mail to top all this off?
I do, indeed, And I also want to mention to
our listeners in the show notes that fabulous James Bond
website really talked about his suits in detail, uh and
serious detail about like the tailoring and who did it.
That is going to be in our show notes, So
never fear. My listener mail is from our listener Nada,
(49:30):
and she says, Hi, Tracy and Holly, I have been
a listener to your podcast since the past year and
I absolutely love it, but this episode was particularly exciting
to hear she's referring to the Pastry War. She says.
The reason behind that is that I'm Mexican and I
also live in Vera, Cruz. I enjoyed a lot listening
to this again since I studied the Pastry War in
high school and I haven't revisited that bit of history
(49:51):
again until now. And I actually didn't know all that
you mentioned about Santa Anna's leg Also hearing my hometown
mentioned in your podcast was amusing and kind of a
real since you rarely you're a very Vera Cruz outside
of Mexico's news, I actually visit San Juanda Lua, which
I always worried that I'm pronouncing terribly. That's my note,
fairly often since it is now a museum and one
(50:12):
of the tourist highlights of Vera Cruz, So every time
someone comes to visit me, I take them there. Uh.
Speaking of San Juanda Alua, it would be pretty awesome
if you did a podcast of the place sometime along
with this episode. It has a lot of stories to offer.
As you mentioned, it was first a fourth but later
it became a prison, and let me tell you, being
a prisoner and there must have been the worst thing
(50:32):
that could happen to you. When you visit now, the
tourist guide will explain to you how the prison was
divided between different levels heaven, purgatory, and hell, and each
of them was awful in its own way. The walls
are very thick and the cells only have a few
very tiny windows, so if you so, you didn't get
a lot of fresh air in there. To make it worse.
Vera Cruz has a very hot and humid tropical weather,
(50:54):
and this was practically at the sea, so the prison
cells were always full of salty water and human waste
from the prisoners. It was a disgusting place full of disease,
and if you add to that the tortures of the
print that the prisoners had to endure, well it is
no surprise that people didn't last very long there. It
was one of the most feared places to end up in.
It was said that no one could escape. It was
(51:14):
well guarded, and on top of that, there were sharks around,
so your chances of getting out in one piece we're
pretty much non existent. There is one urban legend, though,
about one man who managed to get out of San
Juanda Lua not once, but twice. His nickname was chuco
Al Roto. Again, I hope I'm saying that correctly, and
he's remembered as some sort of a Mexican Robin Hood.
(51:35):
Although we know that he definitely existed, details of how
his life ended are actually unclear, and that's why he's
such a popular figure. Anyway, I just wanted to share
all this with you just to show how very excited
I was with this episode. If you didn't know this
little bit of history that I shared. I hope you
find it interesting and maybe it encourages you to put
it on the Maybe we'll do an episode on this
someday list. And if you did know, I'm sorry for
(51:55):
the long email. I did not know. I had never
heard that story before, and it does sound really fascinating,
so I do kind of want to look into it. Um.
Thank you Naa for like a local take on something
that we talked about in the episode. We don't always
get those, particularly when they are outside of the US,
so that's some cool insight into sort of that that
prison and then Fortress's place in the bigger story of
(52:17):
Mexican history. If you would like to write to us,
you can absolutely do that, and you should. You can
do that at History Podcast at house to works dot com.
You can connect to this on Facebook at Facebook dot
com slash mist in history, on Twitter at misst Industry,
at pinterest dot com, slash mist in History at misston
history dot tumbler dot com, and on Instagram at misst
in history. If you would like to visit our parent company,
(52:39):
you can do that. That is how stuff works dot com.
You can research almost anything you can think of there.
If you would like to visit us at our little
corner of the worldwide Web, that is, at Miston history
dot com, you will find show notes and uh an
archive of every episode that has ever happened, and the
occasional other goody, so we encourage you come visit us
at Miston history dot com and a house to works
(53:00):
dot com for more on miss thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works dot com. M m mmmmm
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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